Shameful end to the 21 saga
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- April
- 16
LaTroy Hawkins told Scott Miller from CBS Sports.com that he will change numbers today. Bowing to the wishes of “fans” who have been booing him (and worse), he will go to No. 22 today.
Hawkins didn’t want to talk about it last night when I asked him, politely asking not to be interviewed. He clearly wants this whole mess behind him.
Tyler Kepner of the Times says it well in his blog today: Yankee fans were not classy.
I agree. Paul O’Neill was a good player but not one worthy of having his number retired. At some point, the Yankees have to have some standards. Beyond that, Hawkins wanted 21 to honor Roberto Clemente.
Hawkins is a good person who has established himself as one of the leaders in the clubhouse. He is also a well-respected player around the game. What do you suppose he would tell a potential free agent who asks his opinion of playing for the Yankees?
O’Neill should have told fans to give Hawkins a break. Is that how you honor one man, by making another feel miserable?
Nice legacy for No. 21 now. It’s not retired but it can’t be used because some fans are jerks. If it does get retired now, it won’t be for the right reasons.
Be careful what you wish for.
UPDATE, 4:03 p.m.: People seem really fired up about this issue, which is great. O’Neill was a heck of a player and you have every right to love a player.
A few points:
1. The Yankees can retire a number at any point. Several players wore No. 3 after Babe Ruth. If the Steinbrenners decide today, tomorrow or in five years they want to retire No. 21, they can.
2. You can’t retire numbers based on “emotional leadership” or because somebody was a member of great teams. It has to be for individual accomplishment. David Cone was a pretty emotional guy who played on great teams. You want to retire his number? Beyond that, kicking water coolers and throwing your bat isn’t leadership. If you think other players watch that and get inspired, you know nothing about baseball. This isn’t football.
3. I have (so far) received four e-mails and had to delete four posts that were over-the-top racist in nature. I suspect racism is at the core of this for some fans, which is a shame.
4. You want to boo Hawkins, go right ahead. That’s your right. Just know that the other players are cringing. How does booing a player in 2008 honor a player who retired in 2001? It doesn’t.
UPDATE, 7:03 p.m.: Here’s what Paul O’Neill told the AP about the situation:
“What can I say? The fans have always been unbelievable to me there. I don’t really know how to explain it. It makes you feel good that the fans still think of you as wearing that number.”
It makes you feel good that the fans booed another Yankees? Interesting take.
Joe Girardi: “I obviously understand the feelings for Paul O’Neill because I was here, and I know what he meant to me as a teammate and what he means to me as a friend, and what he means to the people of New York, Yankees fans. But LaTroy was trying to honor Roberto Clemente, someone he looked up to. It was nothing against Paul O’Neill. I think LaTroy has the ultimate respect for Paul O’Neill. It’s a tough spot.”
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This is pathetic and I completely agree PA. I don’t/won’t understand the big deal over wearing 21. A lot of fans overreacted with this and it is a shame. It is a number, people need to build a bridge and get over it. Hawkins seems like a positive teammate, absurd that the fans acted this way because of what number was on his back.
Not for nothing but shouldn’t the captain have spoken to the “fans” and told them to cut it?
What a strange situation… especially shameful because of the reason that Hawkins wanted to wear 21.
One of the things that absolutely irks me is that it will be written and reported that Yankees fans made Hawkins switch — and yes, they did — BUT it was not a majority of the fans; it was a small, vocal minority. Those fans have given ALL of us a bad name in this episode.
I went back and read a story (NY Daily News) that was written when Hawkins decided to take 21. He originally would have liked #32, his number since high school days, but that number has already been retired by the Yankees. His mom requested he take 22, but then 21 became available, and he jumped at the chance to be able to wear Clemente’s number. I’m sorry, but I don’t see his crime here.
I know many of us have spent a lot of time discussing such a seemingly minor issue. But to me it is not a small issue. The larger issue is that a bunch of bullies were able to force an innocent person to yield to their demands. Part of me wishes that Hawkins had the fortitude to withstand the nonsense coming from the stands, but I understand that he has a job to do, and that “nonsense” would absolutely have an effect on his ability to do his job - not an easy one, by the way, in baseball.
So, for all intents and purposes, these so-called “fans” have forced the issue and made #21 an albatross around the neck of any player who dares “disrespect” Paul O’Neill by wearing it. It is effectively retired until this group deems another player “worthy” of wearing it, or a player comes along who can withstand the heckling and thumb his nose at the mob.
Well said, Pete!
well, it’s a sport for the fans, not for the beat writers. Yankee fans love Paul O’Neill. they’ve made that abundantly clear..
Pete i don’t think described it accurately - Hawkins was getting the Paul O’Neill chant because of the uniform #. he was getting booed because he pitched like Felix Heredia - the boos may have been a bit louder because of #21, but he could have been waring number 99 and still get booed w/those performances
[I posted this at the end of an earlier thread, but it is my take on 21-Gate.]
If a player’s number cannot be retired in part for sentimental reasons (fan favorite), why is #15 retired? Thurman Munson was not a Hall-of-Famer. He’s not the best catcher in Yankees history.
His number was retired because of his tragic death.
I’m not saying retire Paulie’s 21; rather, I’m pointing out that it could be retired because there are no hard-and-fast rules.
Well said.
I also agree with Pete’s statement that if #21 is retired in the future, it will have a different meaning because of this incident.
george he was booed on opening day. He didn’t even throw a pitch.
I’m a huge O’Neill fan, and I agree that he should not have his number retired, but in my opinion O’Neill is much more deserving than both Reggie Jackson and Billy Martin.
George,
People were booing Hawkins on OPENING DAY during introductions - before he had even thrown a regular season pitch for the Yankees. He wasn’t even given a chance!
This was a classless situation in part by the fans. I really grew to disrespect Paul O’Neil in this situation as well. He was interviewed on the second game of the year by Kim Jones on YES and had a chance to address the situation when asked. He made no reference to there being no problem with it, he didn’t say that the fans should lay off. He simply said it was strange to see someone else wearing what was his number.
Let’s face it, Hall Of Very Good is O’Neil’s place. He did mean a lot to the team when he was here, but that doesn’t mean that he has earned the right to have a retired number. If you have a problem with it, don’t boo the player wearing the number. Write a letter to the ownership and tell them you have an issue.
It’s a sad state of affairs when players have to take so much heat for absolutely useless things. This is one of those things that makes me look down my nose at my fellow fan. If you boo’d, you are simply a bad fan. You are likely the same person who boo’d Alex Rodriguez. Shame on you.
“rather, I’m pointing out that it could be retired because there are no hard-and-fast rules.”
Team captain who died untimely during the peak of his Yankee career and free agent signing in his prime that won a bunch of championships here hugely different.
“Hawkins was getting the Paul O’Neill chant because of the uniform #. he was getting booed because he pitched like Felix Heredia”
Bull. He was getting booed before he even pitched.
Well that doesn’t seem accurate, George. Hawkins was getting grief about the number before he even threw a pitch.
Besides, it seems like a decent amount of fans think this is ridiculous, didn’t care if Hawkins kept 21, and still like O’Neill.
I wonder how many fans would boo if Joba decided to wear 21
i agree, it was pretty classless all around.. but he hasnt done anything since opening day to win over anyone
Doreen’s right - the media always exaggerates the boos to make it sound like 50,000 people are booing, regardless of the facts.
example 1: i was at the April Red Sox-Yankees game a few years back when Mariano blew a save. there some boos, but it was a very tiny minority. the papers made it sound like everyone booed.
example 2: A-Rod in 2006. similar thing - he was getting boos, but it was almost always, if not always, a minority. once the boos started getting the usual media obsession, i noticed that a lot of fans would get up and cheer whenever A-rod got up. that showed the true feeling of most fans; but that response never got mentioned in any media piece i saw/heard/read.
I mean… I feel bad for Hakwins but he should have just stuck with #22. Changing to #21… it just makes him seem clueless what that jersey # means to Yankees fans. I understand he was honoring Clemente and as a Puerto Rica, I think that’s great. But on the Yankees… to be and others #21 will be Warriors #
Because Jeter isn’t the leader that everyone thinks he should be. He doesn’t really go out of his way to speak (ie: Arod). The more vocal leader is Jorge.
Longtime -
I don’t think they would NOW, because Joba would probably pass their “worthiness” test, but I think if he wore it BEFORE people were impressed by him, they probably would have booed him, too.
LibertyBelle, definitely - by some fans. but if Hawkins pitched well, he wouldn’t have been booed.
he may still have gotten some Paul O’Neill chanting regardless - i think u have to separate the chanting from the booing.
It is not Derek Jeter’s job, or any player’s job for that matter, to tell the fans what to do. Every time the fans do something that other people don’t like you get a bunch of posters asking why Jeter didnt say anything. Give it up. And speaking of the fans, the game is played FOR the fans. If people didnt go to the games there would be no baseball. If those same people who support the team dont want someone wearing # 21, then so be it. I dont agree with them booing the guy for wearing the number, I want to make that clear. But the fans spoke and they got what they wanted. Now we dont have to hear about this for the rest of the year. Thank God!
george I maintain at that Sox game it was soxs fans booing for the most part not Yankee fans.
“i agree, it was pretty classless all around.. but he hasnt done anything since opening day to win over anyone”
I have a problem with the mindset that he needed to “do something” to win fans over.
CountryClub
Than why did he tell the fans to lay off Jason?
I’m sure these clowns will still do the same chant if Hawkins gives up a walk or hit… He pitched a scoreless inning at a game against Tampa last week and heard it. What is wrong with people?
Yankee fans were not classy but than again it was outright DUMB of the organization and/or Hawkins for using 21.
You don’t want to retire it? Fine, but don’t have somebody wearing it while O Neil is still employed and in the hearts of most Yankee fans.
Common sense would like a word with you.
The big issue here is Paulie should have said something not the captain. No class by Paulie
“But the fans spoke and they got what they wanted.”
No. A small, LOUD minority of fans spoke and got media attention because it makes DRAMA. And then they got what they wanted.
“he may still have gotten some Paul O’Neill chanting regardless - i think u have to separate the chanting from the booing.”
The booing started BEFORE HE EVER PLAYED A GAME. So, clearly, they are in no way separate. And he’d had a good spring, so you can’t assert that fans who’d been following spring training were getting on him for a bad performance thus far.
The booing was undeniably related to the number.
Pavano can’t rehab his image
April 16, 2008
BY LISA KENNELLY
Check out this article.
“Carl’s a 1-2 starter,” O’Connell said. “Those guys don’t grow on
trees. Those guys are very rare, 200-inning guys are very rare in this game, and they’re the ones that make the money. And he did it two years in a row, before he got hurt, and I’m sure he’s going to do it again.”
Mindful that his future is at stake as the year winds down, Pavano said he’s being very careful about his rehabilitation.
“I look at this as laying the foundation for the rest of my career,” he said. “I’m 32 years old, hopefully I can get five or six more years out of it. I’m laying the foundation for the rest of my career so I’ve got to get this right.
“This is not something that I plan on rushing just to get back and prove that I can get back and be healthy. I want to feel good about myself when I get back, not just get back.”
Ahhhh give it 10 years… then a new group of fans come in and O’Neil gets remembered as a good player… and those annoying fans quiet down…
OK, Relaunch. If Jorge is the real leader of the team, as many people state in here all the time, why didnt HE say anything to the fans? Because it’s not the players jobs to tell the fans what to do. And Arod’s problem is that he used to talk too much. That’s how he got himself in so much trouble. You’ll notice that since his last media blowup in 2007’s spring training that he’s said very little. And now he’s not all over the paper’s because of every little comment. He finally learned, I hope.
O’Neill didn’t exactly do anything to defuse this situation which is pretty low as far as I’m concerned.
this is such a shame. I am embarressed as a yankee Fan that other fans booed him and made him feel this uncomfortable that he is changing his number. Totally disgusting. Sorry LaTroy
I don’t think #21 should be retired and don’t really care that Hawkins choose to wear it, but if fans feel strongly about the number, why is that classless? Pete and others are making it seem like he received death threats or had objects hurled from the stands. Personally, I would like the Yankees to be more selective with the numbers they retire, but that honor is not soley an indication of how great the player was, but also how beloved they were by THE FANS. So, if the overwhelming sentiment of Yankee fans demands that #21 be retired, I won’t lose sleep.
Also, I have a feeling that if Joba or Hughes was wearing #21 no one would have had a problem. Hawkins wasn’t a popular signing anyway, and he isn’t likely to be here beyond one year, so I can definitely see not wanting him to wear a number with such meaning to the fans.
This was O’Neil’s responsibility as a person who still identifies himself a part of the organization in some manner. He does color for the team’s network, he identifies himself and his career as a Yankee. If he would want to support this team, he would have come out and asked the fans to respect the memory of Roberto Clemente and to give Hawkins all the support.
He didn’t do that.
Don’t look at Jeter, Posada… Don’t look at Rivera, Girardi or anyone else. Look to the man himself. Bad job Paulie.
Jennifer, I cant speak for Jeter. But my guess would be that he spoke up for Giambi because he wanted to, not because he felt the need to do so as the captain. As we’ve all learned over the past few years, the players on the team love Giambi. Plus, when the Giambi stuff hit the fan it was at the beginning of all of this steroid/HGH crap. I bet Jeter would keep his mouth shut if what happened to Giambi a few years ago was happening to him today.
“April 16th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Yankee fans were not classy but than again it was outright DUMB of the organization and/or Hawkins for using 21.
You don’t want to retire it? Fine, but don’t have somebody wearing it while O Neil is still employed and in the hearts of most Yankee fans.
Common sense would like a word with you.”
I’m sorry but that makes no sense. So how long should the organization keep the number out of play? Til O’Neill dies? It’s not retired, its an active number, anyone can wear it. O’Neill will always be in Yankee fans hearts. I know O’Neill is more beloved then say a guy like Tino, but the #24 was given to Sidney Ponson a year after he left, yet no huge uproar. This is silly and stupid.
What?! Hawkins can’t wear #22. That’s Clemens’ number!
(just kidding)
Mark Alan,
Munson’s number is retired because he was the captain of the Yankees, the first captain since Gehrig. He was the leader of two World Championship teams, and an all-star catcher. The number wasn’t retired “because of his tragic death.”
those jerks, I mean “fans” would have listened to nobody….on to the next subject as this one has been beaten into the ground…. ;-(
I don’t know I mean in a way it is not fair because Hawkins was paying tribute to one of greats. But Yankee fans had a special bond with O’neill that outsiders just can’t grasp fully. They should have thought about this before issuing Hawkins the number
CountryClub:
Jeter spoke out for Giambi because he is Giambi’s buddy. Jeter quietly picks his spots. He is a quiet captain. He doesn’t say much. When the boos rained upon Alex Rodriguez, he said absolutely nothing. At times Jeter chooses the situation he feels most comfortable addressing.
These fans booing Hawkins are the same idiots who were trying to run ARod out of town in 2006.
Now George above wrote that the fans who were doing that then were a minority.
I can only watch the games on tv so if you were at the games I defer to you George. But on tv it sure sounded like more than a minority.
Look, it’s not like Hawkins didn’t know that taking 21 would cause trouble. Ensberg made it very clear what was happening to him when he wore the number. That alone should have told Hawkins to let it go. I don’t think that the number should be retired and I don’t think that Hawkins should be booed for wearing it. In my mind, the real culprits are the Yankees for even giving the number out.
He’s taking #22?!?!? How dare he taint the legacy of Roger Clemens! Clemens is won of the greatest pitchers of all time, led us to a WS victory (rememeber that 15 K performance against 116 win Seattle?), won his 300 game and got his 4000 K with us. He even took up a weapon to battle Piazza and the Mets. Let’s boo Hawkins and demand that 22 be retired.
Ok, in all seriousness, you can take most numbers and find a really great player that meant a lot to the Yankees and the fans. It’s just a number. Hawkins didn’t replace O’Neill.
Laura:
The number isn’t retired, if a player requests it they can have it. It’s not the fault of anyone.
The fans booing Hawkins are similar to Red Sox fans that start the “Yankees Sux” rallies at Fenway. Idiotic & too much beer.
I’m sorry, only Paul O’Neill could have stopped this. Not Jeter, Posada or the organization.
Jennifer, i think there is a subset of moronic Yankee fans who will boo anyone - probably most if not all are drunk. back when Jeter was 0-for-40 or whatever, even he got a few boos.
i also heard Pettitte booed in that sense n the 2002 ALDS game he pitched.
i distinguish between that - which often gets portrayed as “The Yankee fans booed so-and-so” - and real booing by “the fans”. to define my terms in something we all, unfortunately, can measure against, “real booing” by “the fans” is when Farnsworth has one of his unfortunate performances. that’s a sigificant percentage of fans booing.
Since the fans have decided that we must also retire 2, 6, 20, 21, 46, 51 in the coming years we might as well get used to ridiculous numbers. Andrew Brackman? #93 Angelini? #121 (to honor Clemente of course)
O’Neill never struck me as an ego player which is what made his handling of this so strange to me.
The word ‘classless’ is thrown around too much here…
booing is the fans voice. They really have no other way to be heard. The were not booing Hawkins the player or the man…they were booing the front office or the clubhouse for allowing one of this generations all time fan favorite’s number to be used by a completely unknown player.
What did you want them to do, write a letter? The mistake was not Hawkins for he did not know what he asked for, the fault lies with whoever said ‘yes’.
Yankee fans are not classless. Its the sound of their bark.
“In my mind, the real culprits are the Yankees for even giving the number out.”
But its not a retired number!!! What are the yankees suppossed to do with it? Keep it hidden for the next 50 years? They give a player whatever number he request. Hawkins wanted 21, its nobodies fault. Just a dumb situation that was completely overblown.
I think the only thing more pathetic that the whole scenario and the way it unfolded is the Yankee fans who are making weak-assed excuses for it or forgiving it at all. I know it’s popular to support shades of gray since taking a hard stand would make you have to stick up for your beliefs and it’s easier to kind of melt in the middle so you give a little something to everyone. But there are times in life where it’s much more character building and people actually respect you more when you separate right from wrong and don’t waffle.
1. If the Yankee organization did not want #21 out there, it was their responsibility to remove it. Period.
2. Yankee fans openly booed LaTroy Hawkins on opening day when he was introduced. And it wasn’t a vocal minority either.
3. Some top name players have come to Yankee Stadium and been unable to perform because of the pressure associated with the Yankees. For anyone who has questioned his beginning performances do you think that maybe that horrific reception, coupled with Stadium chants of Paul O’Neill, could have had any effect on his pitching ability?
4. Paul O’Neill was a fan favorite but he isn’t going to the Hall of Fame and his number was not taken out of circulation by the Yankee organization. His waffling and lukewarm statements about yeah he kind of did like having that number as his totally added to the crap the fans gave Hawkins.
5. The only class act in this whole scenario, other than those Yankee fans who would never have booed him and didn’t support the crap going on, has been LaTroy Hawkins.
And for “Josh” who claims that Hawkins hasn’t done anything to stop the boos, apparently you haven’t watched the recent games in which he has pitched.
The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. My respect for O’Neill is just about gone and the I also feel a lot of anger toward the losers at Yankee Stadium who participated in this. Yankee fans as a whole have now been painted with a pretty ugly brush because of it.
I intend to email Pete to ask him where I can write a letter of support and apology to LaTroy and be sure that he gets it.
it’s a good number that should have been held for a better player. the decision should have been made at a higher level so o’neill and hawkins were not involved. from the management’s point of view ,the players are the product. how does it help the business to make two players look bad.
if the yankees would have simply assigned another number to hawkins then there would have been no problem. so yankee management dropped the ball on this one. smart of hawkins to switch numbers. o’neill and hawkins should go out of their way to show support for each other. then the thing goes away.
that said, it’s a number. it wouldn’t get me to boo a player.
We were discussing this at length in yesterday’s game thread. My personal opinion is that O’Neil made it much worse with his reaction, and I know others completely disagree on that. It’s certainly a hot topic. I don’t think it will go away so quickly, given how many of us are ticked off that he was forced to change it to stop the boos and the many others that are angry at him for even wearing it. Unfortunately he will probably always be asked about it from now on, and so will O’Neil.
What I’m really curious about is Pete’s comment that he received boos (and worse). What’s the “worse” Pete?
Well-said, Pete. I couldn’t agree more.
Well said Trisha. I am a huge O’Neill fan (obviously) and the way he handled it bothers me. His comments on Yes when Kay asked him about the number and his only response was “just seems weird” shocked me. It’s a stupid number, personally I wouldn’t care if Hawkins wears number 3 out there tomorrow. A number doesn’t erase the way I felt about a player, nor do I identify a number with just one player.
I still say that Paul O’Neil coming out in favor of Hawkins wearing the number wouldn’t have had any affect on the situation.
I know that some people are saying that Paulie should have said something. Guess what? He did say something - by not saying anything. He didn’t want Hawkins wearing the number either. That may be selfish on his part, but at least he wasn’t a phony by saying that he didn’t care.
Jay Destro: I disagree, but that’s OK.
Now lets get another good one from The Wanger tonight!!
And by the way I am not at all holding the Yankee organization responsible for any of this. When I said it was their responsibility to remove the number, I was saying that since it didn’t happen that number was free game.
This is a pretty funny take on the Hawkins/O’Neil situation.
http://johnsterling.blogspot.com/2008/04/so-latroy-hawkins-caves-in-will-one-up.html
Pete: Well said.
Randy l -
So, LaTroy Hawkins goes to the Yankees and says, “I would like to wear #21 because I would like to honor Roberto Clemente” and the Yankees are supposed to say, “We’re sorry, LaTroy, but we’re holding that number for a better player than you are”?????
Wow, that’s terrible.
Way to make an important relief pitcher feel like a part of the team..
Well Laura, say he did say something if you listened to him waffling all over the place. He said he kind of did like having that number. That was enough said!
“My respect for O’Neill is just about gone and the I also feel a lot of anger toward the losers at Yankee Stadium who participated in this.”
My respect for O’Neill hasn’t changed one bit. This doesn’t take away from what he did on the field. And again, I would have less respect for him if he had come out and blatantly lied about it bothering him about Hawkins wearing #21.
Randy l: the team doesn’t assign numbers…the players pick available numbers
Well someday when we deem a player “worthly” of wearing #21, we can have a big ceremony on the field, with a huge O’neill banner, him handing the player the number, and then we can burn whatever number the player was formally wearing. Only then will we feel comfortable and accept the #21 to come back into play. Wll that do it for everyone?
worthy*
Laura:
Do you know what legacy is?
Paul put a big mark on his legacy in my mind by handling the situation in this matter.
Nicely put Doreen.
Then maybe he should have tried the truth, hey Laura?
I disagree, Jay. In the grand scheme of things, this whole number controversy is meaningless and will be forgotten over time. How many people will forget Paulie’s contribution to those World Series wins?
This sucks and I am feeling ashamed to be a Yankees fan because of this right now. Hawkins has every right to 21 as Alberto Gonzalez does.
Laura -
Paul O’Neill did not have to lie and say it didn’t bother him. I don’t think O’Neill should be chastised for feeling strange about someone else wearing his number, or even disappointed to realize that perhaps his number won’t be getting retired. That’s human and understandable. BUT what he could have said was something along the lines of, “It’s weird to see someone else wearing the number I wore (instead of “my number”), but I don’t think LaTroy should be put on the spot like that.”
Laura,
Think about the now and how the actions of others effects this team.
We all love the 90s teams, but let’s look at supporting the 2008 team.
Move on people.
“Then maybe he should have tried the truth, hey Laura?”
Trisha, truth is that he just should have come right out and said in no uncertain terms that it bothered him that the number was being worn. Of course, that probably would have made the booing worse.
I’ve said it in other posts. When did Yankee fans turn into Raider or Red Sox fans?
Its disgusting to see the behavior of these punks having an influence on what number Hawkins wears.
Don’t give me this nonsense that the game is for the “fans”. Its for fans to support their team. Not to act like punks.
The best thing about the new Yankee Stadium? They will price these punks out of ever having a presence in it.
Its a shame. For years, the Yankees had the best fan base in sports. Smart, knowledgeable, funny, it was a pleasure to interact with Yankee fans at the 30-50 games a year I go to home and on the road.
Piece by piece, more ugly behavior by Yankee fans have been taking place in the past few years. This stuff (the Hawkins mess) is just the latest example.
If you don’t think other players, ie: future free agents, aren’t looking at this stuff and wondering why they would want to be a part of it, you have zero knowledge of Yankee history.
Its a big reason why impactful FA’s dodged the Bronx in the 80’s. They wanted no part of the BS (at that time, it was George acting nuts instead of the fans) that came with being a Yankee.
Paul O’Neill doesn’t distinguish himself well in this either. Its pretty classless to let a guy as nice as Hawkins (whom, as Pete states, is very well respected in the game by his peers) twist in the wind.
He still isn’t going to get his number retired, despite this stuff.
Couple of things:
Hawkins did nothing wrong here, and didn’t deserve to be booed. It was a minority of the fans, but it was a vocal minority.
But I don’t buy the criticism of O’Neill and Jeter. Sometimes by even addressing the issue, you give it steam. I got the impression from O’Neill’s comments during the YES telecast earlier this year that he was trying to downplay it. They all probably figured it would just go away, as it should have done.
I can’t believe that Hawkins feels pressured to change his number, when all he wanted to do was honor his hero. What a shame.
“BUT what he could have said was something along the lines of, “It’s weird to see someone else wearing the number I wore (instead of “my number”), but I don’t think LaTroy should be put on the spot like that.”
True, Doreen. That would have sounded better. But again, I don’t think it would have stopped the booing. I’m convinced that these types of fans were going to boo regardless. Just my opinion, of course.
I think this was shameful (and not classy) behavior from the fans. I loved Paul O’Neill as much as anyone as a player - but we need to get over it and move on.
I think O’Neill could have ended the insanity a few times and once in partucular when asked on a broadcast.
Peter, I normally agree with you 100 percent on issues, but I think you are being a bit harsh in this case.
I think the real mistake made here was by the Yankees, not by allowing another player to wear 21, but in how they handled it. I’ll discuss this point in a second.
Yes, by any objective standard, O’Neill’s numbers do not warrant his number being retired. But feelings are not always rational and logical. While I agree that his number should not be formally retired, and while I do not condone the booing of Hawkins for wearing the number, I do think that the fans’ discomfort at seeing an outsider wearing O’Neill’s 21 is understandable (even if the manner in which the emotion was expressed was wrong).
Consider these factors:
- O’Neill wasn’t just a Yankee on championship teams, he was a beloved Yankee. I was at Game 5 of the 2001 World Series. The “Paul O’Neill” chant was not only one of the most chills-inducing moments I have ever experienced, but it made me proud to be a Yankee fan. It showed how Yankee fans “get it,” that we appreciated the contributions of a truly great team player, knew that this was going to be our last chance to express our appreciation to him (even though he never formally said he was retiring after the season), and seized the moment to be sure O’Neill realized that we appreciated him.
- The Yanks haven’t won a World Series since 2000, making the players from the 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000 champions even more beloved. The symbolism of giving O’Neill’s number to a journeyman reliever wasn’t lost on the fans. A page has turned.
- Hawkins may be the greatest guy in the world (he seems to be all the positive things that are written about him), but he is not a good pitcher. Having another veteran reliever who can’t get the job done is bad enough. Giving him the number of a beloved Yankee is hard for fans to swallow.
Yes, the Yankees really couldn’t retire 21 for all the reasons Peter pointed out. But I think the manner in which they re-introduced the number, taking the fans’ genuine feelings into account, could have gone a long way toward making the situation better. I don’t think there was only one right way to do it, but, for example, what if the number was given to a Yankee prospect (a Hughes or Chamberlain, say) as a way of passing the torch? What if the Yanks got O’Neill to suggest who should wear his 21 next? What if Girardi took the number as a tribute to his friend and former teammate?
Again, these are just some suggestions, and I’m sure there are plenty of others. But all of the scenarios I laid out would have played out better and showed more respect for the fans than just handing the number to a journeyman infielder (Morgan Ensberg, which they did in the preseason) or a journeyman reliever long past his best days.
So let’s cut the fans some slack and shift the focus to the powers that be at the Yankees who failed to account for the passion of the fans, who are, after all, the people who make the whole multibillion dollar business possible.
Laura,
I don’t think he should have lied and said it didn’t matter to him either, but I do think he should have been honest and said ‘He wished it was retired, but since it’s not, he understands Hawkins reason for wearing it to honor Clemente and that it was an honorable thing.’ All he did was encourage the booing fans who were already being idiots to continue with his avoidance of giving a straight answer and talking about how much it meant to him. His words of support for Hawkins would have been the only thing that made then stop booing, if anything could. He could have at least tried to help the situation because Hawkins was doing an honorable thing.
Like Pete said if it does get retired, it won’t be for the right reason, and I hope it doesn’t get retired unless it’s for Clemente if all of MLB ever did that, like with Jackie Robsinson. I don’t think that will happen, but after this fiasco, I think that’s the only circumstance that it should. Sad situation.
Agree with pete 100%. No reason to boo this guy because of a number. Give me a break were not talking about someone wearing number 3 here. Oneil was good, but 21 should not be retired.
I go to my fair share of games like SJ44 I see a poor group infecting the fanbase lately. People who don’t care about the team, but just jump on bandwagons.
It’s really hard to be a diehard and see people make your group of fans look so bad.
Why is O’Neill a culprit? He was asked a question and said how he truly felt. We always criticize players for being fake, and then knock them for being honest. O’Neill was truly dissapointed by the number being issued and was flattered by the fans response. I am not going to knock for him for being fake and suggesting otherwise. Hawkins has never worn #21 before to honor Clemente…it’s not like the number is more important to him than it is to O’Neill and the fans.
I agree with most of your assessment Pete. This is an unfortunate situation. However, the one area where I don’t think will make a big difference is what Hawkins says to “potential” free agents that are considering playing for the Yankees. I don’t disagree that he is a well respected player around the league. I am sure he is. I don’t think however that his opinion will change a decision to turn down a multi million dollar deal.
Baseball is a business. Just ask Mo, Jorge and Arod. When Torre left (on bad terms)various media “experts” speculated that those guys would walk right out with Torre. Millions of dollars later they are in NY, not only to get paid but to hopefully get an opportunity to win a ring. I like Hawkins and feel bad for him, but don’t feel that his “street cred” will break the deal for someone like Sabathia, Texieria etc. That’s my 2 cents for the day.
What I would love to see is the whole team going out with number 21 on their backs for one game.
That would give support to a decent man who got hurt by some thoughtless fans. O’Neill was a scrappy player who won the hearts of a lot of fans, but frankly he will be slowly be forgotten other than the history over time. He was no Babe Ruth or Mantle.
I felt O’Neill was wrong with how he handled the question from Kay, and felt his words encouraged the fans to keep it up. My feeling when he spoke was that he was hedging for it to be retired. He lost some respect from me with that.
What should’ve happened is a homegrown Yankee, like Hughes or Joba, should wear 21. Yankees fans, including myself, would rather see 21 worn by a Yankee who we think will be here for awhile. Hawkins is a free-agent who Yankee fans probably didn’t want the team to sign. He shouldn’t be wearing 21, though I wouldn’t boo him for it.
Give 21 to Tabata when he comes up!
“It is not Derek Jeter’s job, or any player’s job for that matter, to tell the fans what to do. Every time the fans do something that other people don’t like you get a bunch of posters asking why Jeter didnt say anything. Give it up. And speaking of the fans, the game is played FOR the fans. If people didnt go to the games there would be no baseball. If those same people who support the team dont want someone wearing # 21, then so be it. I dont agree with them booing the guy for wearing the number, I want to make that clear. But the fans spoke and they got what they wanted. Now we dont have to hear about this for the rest of the year. Thank God!”
A small vocal minority of ‘fans’ (are they? Really? They’re pieces of s*** IMO) make the game less enjoyable for others.
Mitch,
The number isn’t retired. If a player wants it he can have it. Your argument ends there.
Pete: well, stated.
O’Neil: was strangely, quiet on the situation.
Jeter: he is always too busy saying the right things, then to stick his neck out for anyone.
When you look out in monument park your taking about instrumental players to the game of baseball, and to the yankees. Legends. Oneil is not a legend IMO. It is as simple as that for me.
And I lost a lot of respect for O’Neill. Period.
SJ44, thats an interesting point about the new stadium pricing them out, lol. I still just think its the fans who feel because we are the yankees we are held to a higher standard. They are like any other organization, they have just been lucky enough to have had more success. The Yankees shouldn’t be held to a higher standard. Reminds me of what Francessa says in his argument about the Joba fist pump, how its un-yankee like. What the heck does that mean, un-yankee like. Yankee fans need to get off their high horse.
These spoiled fans are disappointed in how the yankee seasons have gone the past few years, and are still clinging to the “dynasty years”. And since O’neill is a symbol of those good times, they are taking their frustrations out on Hawkins for taking that number and showing them those times are long gone. They need to move on.
yankee fans, who booed LaTroy: dissapointing.
George you just don’t get it. The fans were booing Hawkins on opening day before he ever threw a pitch. He’s really only had the one really bad outing and his ERA was enormous and that will stick in fans head for awhile. He’s actually pitched pretty good in most of his outings. It’s going to take awhile to get that ERA to respectability.
Babe Ruth, Micky Mantle, Joe DiMaggio
is Paul O’Neil’s career comparable to theirs?
That really sucks that it went down like that. The kind of thing that gives Yankees fans a bad rep.
There have been Philly fans that have told me Yankees fans are horrible. PHILLY fans. The people who throw batteries at opposing fans and players and make chants about players’ dead fathers. PHILLY fans.
I don’t want to hear this nonsense about the fans “voice” on this issue or that, “if Hawkins pitched better, he wouldn’t be booed”.
Hawkins was booed when he was INTRODUCED on Opening Day.
Really, how dumb is that?
Its great to have a “voice” but, if you act like an idiot, guess what? All Yankee fans have to take the hit for your behavior.
Sorry but, I didn’t sign up for that simply because some idiots fans need to have a “voice”.
There are no winners in this debate. O’Neill looks bad, the fans look worse, and its another example for Yankee haters (ie: ESPN) to crow nationally about what a bunch of ignorant jerks we have in our fan base.
Great, the punks have something else to be proud of today.
Ok can people stop making the argument that the Yankees handled this poorly by GIVING Hawkins the number. For the last time, that’s not the way it works in baseball. Players pick from available numbers or bribe another player for their number. If 21 is available, it’s available to anybody from Derek Jeter to Chad Moeller. It’s not up to the team to decide. If the team does withhold a number, then it’s like being retired (which is obviously not what the Yankees are going for right now).
It’s times like this that I’m glad I’m also a Cardinals fan (raised that way). It’s nice that there’s at least one fan base that’s respectful to its players.
why shouldn’t paul o’neill’s number be retired? he was a better yankee than these guys:
roger maris (two good seasons)
phil rizzuto (not good in any capacity)
thurman munson (commemorated for inability to fly a plane)
don mattingly (4 good seasons, tailed off too early and only so popular because yankee fans had nothing else to root for)
elston howard (commemorated for being the yankees first black third string catcher)
ron guidry (three good seasons)
reggie jackson (not even a yankee for four full seasons)
paul o’neill had six legitimately great seasons as a yankee and helped them win four world series. there’s no reason not to retire his number, especially if the fans are calling for it. it was very stupid/generous of cashman to throw $3.7m at the albatross that is latroy hawkins, and hawkins should just be thankful of that and cut his losses from there (which it looks like’s doing).
Pete, don’t group all the fans like that. It was a loud minority that booed Latroy.
Furthermore, don’t try to tell us, the fans, how we should feel about Paul O’neal.
craig:
inability to fly a plane? are you serious? i hope you fall in a muddy puddle.
For a guy that thought nothing of destroying water coolers for a bad at bat, Paul O’Neill has been a real mouse in watching some fans trash LaTroy Hawkins over his old number which should have been re-issued no later than a year after he retired.
That’s it Paul, don’t just do something - stand there.
This has nothing to do with Derek Jeter.
One person could have stopped this and he didn’t do it. Paul O’Neill.
All O’Neill had to say was, “Its a little strange seeing someone else wear the number but LeTroy is a good guy and I wish him the same success I had with the number”.
How hard would have been for him to do?
That would have ended it.
craig: wow.
It’s times like this that I’m glad I’m also a Cardinals fan (raised that way). It’s nice that there’s at least one fan base that’s respectful to its players.
V if you are reading through these comments you can see that most of us hear think this is ridiculous. So please don’t start with how yankee fans are disrespectful. Every team has a small group of people who act like this. The yankee mob group just tends to be a bit louder.
craig - Wow. That is a moronic post.
“The yankee mob group just tends to be a bit louder.”
Much louder. And generally egged on by such toilet paper as the Daily News.
Craig,
Aside from your inappropriate comment on Munson, if you are trying to say that O’Neill is better than HOF on your list, go back to class, learn a little about baseball, then come back and play in here.
Laura -
I agree for the most part that there are some who would have continued to boo regardless of what Paul O’Neill did or didn’t say. O’Neill seems like a guy who would never court controversy but was put on the spot with this whole thing. He could have handled it better, and then some of those people may have said, “hey, if it’s okay with Paulie, then okay.”
I guess it becomes dangerous to start saying what people shoulda, woulda, coulda done in a situation.
I have the book “The Pride and the Pressure,” and went back to look at the Jeter/ARod chapter and the controversy over whether or not Jeter should have openly supported ARod when he was getting mercilessly booed for what the fans deemed poor performance. Something that struck me was that Gary Sheffield, who was on the DL during most of that season, was quoted in the book as saying if he had been there, HE would have spoken out in support of ARod. I had to laugh. Since when has Sheffield waited for the press to come to him???
Anyway, I don’t think a player or manager really can say outright to the fans to stop booing. I think in the long run that is counterproductive, especially in New York where people do not like being told what to do. The best way to counteract and eliminate the boos is to start doing better. ARod was not booed last season, at least not as mercilessly and unceasingly (it was more situational). Also, my take on Jeter’s support of Giambi is that he wanted the public to know that Giambi was not being shunned by his own team for his involvement with steroids. But that’s just my opinion, not knowing what’s in Jeter’s mind.
Pete,
I completely agree :O
Craig:
Besides your crass response, I do agree with most of your assessment (except for Munson). Most of those players, especially Maris, Guidry, Jackson and Howard don’t deserve to have their numbers retired. If you put that against O’Neill, you are correct–retire it right away! However it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument about Hawkins being signed or having that number.
tom: Pete didn’t tell us, how we should view O’neil. He called out the fans, who booed Hawkins. Which he have every right to.
it’s his blog. Besides, he’s right.
Craig :
Was Paul O’Neill a better Yankee than Tino Martinez ??? Do fans boo Robby Cano for wearing No. 24 ???
It’s time to get real.
Much louder. And generally egged on by such toilet paper as the Daily News.
Don’t forget the Ny Post, who in my mind is nothing by tabloid journalism. Worst paper in the country.
rizzuto. Not good in any capacity?
shame on yankee fans for booing him and treating him the way they did the last few times he picthed. Those ‘few’ that did it ought to be ashamed of themselves. I hope this puts an end to it - and I say “GO HAWKINS!!!!!!!!!!!”
And SJ…
About Craigs post. Yes those are great players, but that doesn’t mean the Yankees must retire HOF players numbers. Reggie, for example, didn’t play with the Yankees long enough to warrent his number being retired in my opinion. If you want to argue that he did great things in the WS for two years, yes, but so did Aaron Boone or Scott Brosius.
Craig GET LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I couldn’t agree more Pete. Its such a shame that such a nice guy like Hawkins got treated that way. I was at Opening Day and it was horrible to hear the boos. It definitely wasn’t the majority of the fans, but definitely a minority that was very vocal.
Everyone needs to give it up and I agree with someone above that was surprised that Paul never came out and told people to back off. Same with Jeter….someone should have stepped up.
Yankee fans, take your lectures from Pete Abraham and Tyler Kepner. It was a classless move to boo him, yada yada.
But since when were New York fans classy when it comes to crappy middle relievers? By all accounts, I’ve heard he is a great guy and a fantastic teammate. But I don’t remember the last time Yankee fans cared about character over performance.
His first two innings as a Yankee? 8 hits, 1 HR allowed, 7 ERs for a 31.50 ERA.
So you are going to take a Yankee legend’s number, one that hasn’t been worn since 2001, and perform like that? And you are going to be shocked that the fans react by chanting Paul O’Neill’s name at you and telling you that you suck?
C’mon, LaTroy. You can’t be that stupid.
I don’t get how Hawkins was so oblivious to the fact that taking this number would piss off Yankee fans. And on top of that… you are going to do your best Kyle Farnsworth impression? I think it’s safe to say that this is not the best way to endear yourself to the New York fans.
(Note: I have a feeling if Joba Chamberlain wanted to switch to No. 21 in the offseason, fans might have bitched and moaned at first, but eventually gotten over it because Joba is lights out. However, I don’t even think Joba would have the balls to switch).
Hawkins, though? A free agent pickup whose only ties to the Yankees was being the losing pitcher in David Wells’ perfect game, a guy with a career 56-76 record and 4.73 ERA? Really? You are going to take Paulie’s number? You?
Not so much. Good move LaTroy. We’d knew you come around.
craig = anti-mussina?
I have the book “The Pride and the Pressure,”
God that book was terrible. Only Yankee book I’ve ever read that took me like a month to read, just awful.
vinny-b
WOOO that was a brave thing for O’Neill to do. Put it in his blog but stand there like a statue on national television. Yeah that definitely was the right order of things!
Good point Brad, and if they did boo Robbie, I think Tino would handle it differeently, especially if he saw the reaction O’Neil is getting now.
Btw I hope Hawkins pitches tonight. I’m going to the game and he’s getting a standing ovation from me. Anyone like to join me?
Aaron Boone, is the NY Yankees version, of Bobby Thompson. He had 1 hit.
Yankee Fans, Game 5, 2001 World Series… Enough Said.
craig: i’m somewhat disturbed by your analysis of who’s deserving of a retired number. first of all it’s incredibly disrespectful what you said about Munson. You do remember that he was also the captain of the team, don’t you? Also, a guy like Roger Maris yeah he only had 2 good seasons, but don’t you think setting the single season home run record is a historical achievement worthy of having his number retired?
anyway, the people that booed Hawkins are probably the same dumbasses who spent all of 2006 booing A-Rod everytime he didn’t hit a homerun.
“vinny-b
WOOO that was a brave thing for O’Neill to do. Put it in his blog but stand there like a statue on national television. Yeah that definitely was the right order of things!”
umm. okay. ?
NYSuperFan
I think this was solely O’Neil’s area to step up and do the right thing, not Jeter. He’s the only one that could have had a chance of settling the boo birds down. Instead, he just ruffled their feathers a bit more.
O’Neill handles this situation poorly, he should have put the interests of the team over his obviously fragile ego. Hawkins wore the number to honor Clemente, not to show any disrespect to O’Neill. Time to move on.
Doreen, I’m torn on the whole “player speaking out in support of another” thing. I was one of those who believed that Jeter should have come to A-Rod’s aid during those rough times. In fact, I have a friend that is 100% convinced that Jeter lost the MVP that year because he didn’t do more to help Alex. Not sure how true that is, but it could be. Maybe the voters were disappointed he didn’t step up as well. We’ll never know.
At any rate, the sooner this 21 thing is put to bed, the better. We can debate it until the cows come home. The fact is that we should be more concerned with the actual games that are being played and not this numbers nonsense. We have real problems to worry about. I mean, really - how many freakin’ times are the Yankees going to leave the bases load this season? Good grief!
First off, craig, you’re a freaking moron of the utmost capacity. Please leave.
Okay, on to more important matters. I whole heartily agree with Pete and most of the posters here. This situation has been a disgrace on the Yankees franchise and fans. Absolutely classless move by the fans booing Hawkins. Just despicable. I too lost some respect to O’neill when he didn’t diffuse the situation during his interview. He could have ended it right there and did nothing but waffle. For being such a warrior on the field, he sure did not exude that characteristic off it in this instance. The worst part of this is the affect on Hawkins, a man who was trying to do the right and honorable thing honoring his hero by wearing his number for the greatest franchise in sports. Seeing him booed on opening day was one of the lowest points I’ve had as a life-long Yankee fan. Pete, I (like trisha), would appreciate the opportunity to somehow be able to get in touch with LaTroy and apologize on behalf of the idiot Yankee fans that booed him. Is there any way you can facilitate this?
The booing was not the worst part of the fan behavior here.
What made this situation particularly awful was the chanting of O’Neil’s name. To have another players name chanted while you are trying to perform is a form of humiliation that far outstrips simple booing.
So this was in no way a situation of fans just expressing their “right” to be vocal and comment on a players performance.
The abysmal behavior that forced Hawkins to switch numbers for all the wrong reason was carried out by a small but vocal minority of fans. This is true.
But this episode has now become an embarrassment for all Yankee fans as a whole, for the organization and also for O’Neil himself as he did nothing to rectify the situation and appeared to tacitly condone it.
The notion that this booing was caused by Hawkins performance is nonsense.
Remember - there were TWO players who were scared off from wearing 21 this year by the reaction of fans and the media attention the issue generated. Not one but two.
Ensberg got scared off from wearing the number in the spring time - was that also because of unsatisfactory performance?
No - he could tell that there was going to be vocal, angry outrage against him for no good reason.
So is it a good thing that Ensberg was also scared off from wearing the number?
Hawkins adopts it only because of Roberto Clemente - he seems like a good guy and I’d guess he figured if I’m wearing this to honor Roberto Clemente the fans will understand.
Unfortunately he gave that minority of fans too much credit.
So this issue of mob reaction inducing some kind of fear of backlash started well before Hawkins took the mound - amazingly it started in spring training in Florida with another player.
O’Neil himself handled this in a very passive aggressive way - just look at how he phrased his reaction when asked about it. You don’t think the people chanting could read between the lines?
He is still part of the organization - both formally in his announcing duties and informally as a Yankee player who has a very special place in the history of the team.
Hypothetically, just say that Mattingly’s number was never retired. Could you imagine Don Mattingly ever reacting to this the way O’Neil did?
If O’Neil was such a great Yankee and loved the organization so much why would he not help Hawkins, a fellow Yankee?
If O’Neil had spoken up forcefully enough the chanting would have stopped.
But he chose not to and it made him come off as bitter and even slightly angry about his number not being retired.
No player is entitled to have his number retired. O’Neil came off as someone who feels that honor is owed to him.
The whole situation was ugly. That’s the best word for it - just ugly. The idea of a crowd of people shouting down one person and forcing him to submit to their mass will is a black mark on all involved.
Actually, whether LaTroy was a nice guy or not is irrelevant. Of course, since he is a nice guy, it does make a juicier story.
You are assessing a guy based on his FIRST TWO INNINGS of work?
Please, tell me you aren’t serious because even a troll can’t be this stupid.
Eric, Reggie deserves to have his number retired. He came to NY at a time they needed someone like him to get over the hump. He produced in a big way. Historic way, from a WS perspective.
That’s worthy of having his number retired.
“I don’t get how Hawkins was so oblivious to the fact that taking this number would piss off Yankee fans. And on top of that… you are going to do your best Kyle Farnsworth impression? I think it’s safe to say that this is not the best way to endear yourself to the New York fans.”
If you can slow down long enough to read what I am going to say, and actually think about it, maybe you can come back with a comment that is better thought out and less hip hop.
1. If Hawkins thought for a minute that taking number #21 was going to cause him to be treated like a piece of crap, I am sure he wouldn’t have taken it. It may surprise you to know that not every baseball player in the majors is living and dying on the way the fans perceive their Yankees. So I think it’s a safe bet that LaTroy didn’t stop for a minute and think about the fact that O’Neill wore the number and that as a danger signal in terms of asking for it. HE WANTED TO HONOR ROBERTO CLEMENTE, A REAL BASEBALL HERO.
2. I think you put the cart before the horse when you accuse LaTroy of coming out and doing his best Kyle Farnsworth impression, as if perhaps the fan booing and the O’Neill chants that resonated when he took the mound for the first time, after the booing that took place when he was introduced, may not have had anything to do with a poor outing. Add to that natural Yankee fan jitters and I guarantee you there is a formula for disaster.
LaTroy Hawkins did nothing wrong in this whole scenario. Period.
Andrew:
Hawk was booed BEFORE he threw his first pitch, so it was not about his performance. His first two innings are irrelevant.
And as for your observation: “But I don’t remember the last time Yankee fans cared about character over performance,” I feel sorry for you. You are obviously a very new fan and don’t understand the Tradition of the Yankees, one of the classiest organizations in all of sports, and some of the best fans in the game. The issue is really about the fans lack of character and good sportsmanship - not Hawk’s traits.
“The whole situation was ugly. That’s the best word for it - just ugly. The idea of a crowd of people shouting down one person and forcing him to submit to their mass will is a black mark on all involved.”
CB -
That’s precisely why this episode bothers me as much as it does. It’s not about the number, per se.
Time to get a few Hawkins “21″ t-shirts printed up…
From Buster this morning (about strong relief pitchers):
Brian Bruney and Ross Ohlendorf, Yankees: Bruney has lost weight and is much more consistent, and Ohlendorf is showing some nasty off-speed stuff; the duo could take move in front of LaTroy Hawkins and Kyle Farnsworth in the bullpen pecking order.
oh - not at all using the buster quote in the Hawkins argument, just trying to change the topic
Hey Brian- there are jerks in every fanbase. Philly has not cornered the market (though listening to local sports talk radio may lead one to believer otherwise). The argument is never-ending, but I don’t see Philly fans as being any different from any other NE fan base.
“The whole situation was ugly. That’s the best word for it -just ugly. The idea of a crowd of people shouting down one person and forcing him to submit to their mass will is a black mark on all involved.”
You know, I also think that we need to put this booing into perspective. Lest we forget that Derek Jeter got booed that year he got off to a slow start. That, to me, is much worse than this.
No, not on his first two innings. His whole career. I’m not really assessing him either, just stating that his career statistics are not very good.
Let’s be realistic people. It was a dumb move by him. If he was any good, people wouldn’t care that he changed his number.
If Cano took 21, or anyone that was any good, I guarentee the fans wouldn’t care as much.
Craig must be a troll Red Sox fan.
Rizzuto has a few things that O’Neill doesn’t. One being an MVP award and another is Phil played shortstop on 7 World Series title teams.
Luckily I sit out in right where I am close to the players so I may get there for BP today and hopefully see Hawkins hanging around in the outfield like most relief pitchers due. With any luck I can get within an ear shot of him and tell him he’s worthy of wearing 21.
I think Craig needs to get back on his meds. One of the more ludicrous posts I’ve read this morning.
doreen-
i think it was predictable there would be some people who would object to o’neill’s number being given to hawkins. because of that,it was a bad decision by someone in management. when hawkins asked for the number this could have been explained to him.
o’neil is a special case because he was about as important to the yankees as a player could get and not have his number retired. i think it’s a nice gesture to let some time, maybe ten years, go by before it’s used again.
as long as yankee numbers are retired which makes them important symbolically, then players like o’neill who don’t quite measure up to permanent number retirement should be acknowledged in some way. how about for every year they were a yankee ,honor the number by putting on a sabbatical. something like that.
i see the problem as the present policy is an all or nothing thing with retirement of numbers. this is an opportunity to come up with a better plan than the one they have now. some fans care about it. players iike o’neil would appreciate the honor.
as far as the clemente tribute by hawkins, if there was a policy intact that made the number temporarily unavailable, that would have solved that without offending hawkins.
it’s also kind of presumptuous of hawkins to wear the number of a legendary superstar when hawkins in all reality pretty average. if he stinks ,which is a possibilty, how is that honoring clemente?
but again, it wouldn’t have bothered me to have him wearing 21. i wouldn’t have even noticed it.
StandingO’Neil,
Thank you thank you for that if you get a chance to do it. And please let him know about all the Yankee fan support he really does have in this and how angry and embarassed we are for what he has been put through.
Yea I when I first heard that ensberg changed his number and hawkins took it, I wanted to keep the number not worn. But I have been to yankee stadium every game but opening day and I have been BOOing him like I do Kyle Farnsworth, only when they give up runs. I don’t care what numbers those two wear, they suck. Period.
I just took a look at Andrew’s blog. Wow. The long comment he made before was actually his blog post for today - though he didn’t include the insulting headline.
Here is Andrew’s blog post from yesterday, April 15.
Interestingly it’s about the issue of race in baseball.
I strongly suggest everyone read it as it may give some insight into what kind of fans were booing Hawkins.
In particular - not Andrew’s parenthetical remark about Derek Jeter being an “oreo.”
This is the whole column below the dash:
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“Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Let’s See How Many Blacks Don’t Play Baseball Anymore Day
I mean… It’s Jackie Robinson Day. This year’s numbers didn’t disappoint.
I find it interesting that the number keeps dropping. Many see this is a problem. However, I believe it is simply because baseball is not the favorite sport of blacks.
The study finds that baseball is more racially diverse than ever, so it is safe to say that baseball is not in any way shape or form discriminating any longer in the front office or on the field. I believe that simply, teams are looking for the best players, and it seems that the best players are now coming internationally.
I don’t think that the Yankees or any team care what color you are. As long as you can swing a bat or throw 100 MPH, you have a spot on a major league team.
It is pretty crazy though, that LaPaul O’Neill is the only 100% African American player (Derek Jeter is an Oreo). Thoughts?
Note: No live blog tonight. Will be at the game tomorrow so no blog then either. Sorry for the slacking lately.
Posted by arodspurplelips at 7:30 PM 0 comments”
http://stirthedrink.blogspot.com/2008/04/breaking-news-lapaul-oneills-common.html
Its not a dumb move by him. He was honoring Roberto Clemente for God sake.
Really, if you are that unhappy about the Yankees and some of its players, please jump on the Red Sox bandwagon.
Don’t give me this crap about what Hawkins should or shouldn’t have done over a stupid number.
“LaTroy Hawkins did nothing wrong in this whole scenario. Period.”
True, but Trisha - he did hear what Ensberg went through during Spring Training. That would have been enough evidence for me to know that I shouldn’t take #21.
We all know that it’s not right. But it is what it is. We can’t change the behavior of others. Sometimes, you have to bite the bullet and give in. And that is what he’s doing now. It’s unfortunate.
I’m thinking the Yankees should never have gotten into the business of retiring numbers to begin with.
They could have still had plaques in monument park, they could still post the numbers around the field.
But the retiring of numbers just opens up a huge can of worms.
I think CB is right on the money…
I just hope the fans stop harassing him. Even though his number is changed I wouldn’t be surprised if the chants continue. The classless fans doing the chanting probably feel that there is no going back now.
Nice to know the Yankee players have your support Frank.
Andrew isn’t much better.
Thanks for whoever responded to the post on player character. I have never been able to separate that from the player, and that is one of the reason that I have always been so proud to be a Yankee fan, that it has usually been easy to root for the entire person wearing the inform. Character doesn’t just mean a lot, it means everything. Unless, of course, you are one of the “what have you done for me lately” sorts that tends to frequent the game blogs.
Geez, CB now we have Klan members in the fan base. Wonderful. Ugh.
But we have to try to change bad behavior. Where would we be if those with the courage to change behavior decided it wasn’t worth it.
As I stated before, I wish Hawkins had the fortitude to keep the number; but he has a job to do and those vocal fans (I’m trying not to be insulting) were going to make it difficult for him and does a relief pitcher really need any more distraction than the opposing team is ready to give?
Murphy dog:
Are you serious? We have given standing ovations to cheaters (Giambi, Pettitte, insert names from 2000 World Series in Mitchell Report), applauded drug abusers (Gooden, Strawberry) and drunks (Ruth, Mantle!!).
Those were real high character guys. You know why fans applauded them? Because they were great players. Fans don’t give a damn if you are a good guy. As long as you can help the Yankees win or have helped the Yankees win, you will be cheered.
YankeeAngel
I agree and take it back on Jeter. O’Neil should have put a stop to it right as the season started.
SJ,
In this point I think we agree to disagree. Yes Reggie came when they needed and did amazing things in the world series. But, and this is obviously where we differ, I think retired numbers should be kept to the greatest Yankees in the history of the franchise. Of course, that’s my criterion and this is what all the debate is about to begin with.
Laura,
It is a whole unforunate situation. I will feel a whole lot better about it if I find out that Hawkins understands that he was the victim of the “angry mob” and that what happened wasn’t universally backed by Yankee fans, I would feel a whole lot better about it.
Hopefully Pete will come on and let those people who want to write letters of support to LaTroy know how to go about it.
Andrew,
You have a picture of Jeter on your blog and you say that? That’s disgusting.
Pete - please pass along my thanks to LaTroy for being such a classy guy. And while I would never boo a player for wearing a beloved player’s number (while shocked when I saw Ponson in #24, I wouldn’t think of booing him for that), please apologize for me on behalf of the fans. This is a ridiculous situation that has spun unbelievably out of control. Let the poor guy pitch and play and HELP our team. Why make him a scapegoat for wanting to come here and play for the Yankees?