Cash and Hank: On the same page
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- April
- 21
After seeing the comments in the New York Times today, Brian Cashman spoke with Hank Steinbrenner.
“We’re on the same page, 110 percent,” Cashman told The Journal News a few minutes ago. “He understands the situation.”
Cashman said Joba Chamberlain would remain in the bullpen for now. At some point (Page 1 of the Secret Plan), he will make the transition to the rotation.
How Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy or Mike Mussina pitches has nothing to do with it. The Yankees are primarily concerned with Joba’s development and health.
“If we need a pitcher or somebody gets hurt, we’ll go down below and get somebody,” Cashman said. “You can’t just suddenly put Joba in the rotation.”
There is no question in Cashman’s mind - none whatsoever - that Joba’s future is as a starter. He was drafted as a starter, paid a signing bonus as a starter and developed as a starter. His pitching in the bullpen has been a function of innings limits.
As for Hank’s comments that it was a mistake for Joba to pitch in relief last season, Cashman said he explained to the co-chairperson that Joba was about to reach his innings limit when that move was made.
“Hank wasn’t involved last season and he didn’t understand what we were doing at that time,” Cashman said. “I explained it to him and he had no problems with it.”
Whether or not Joba pitched in relief last season, Cashman said, had no effect on his availability as a starter this season.
What many people don’t understand (including some people who are on the radio) is that every starter in the Yankees organization has an innings limit. You don’t just take a 22-year-old kid and pitch him 200 innings. That’s irresponsible.
People know Joba because he was able to temporarily fill a need in the bullpen. Do you know how many starters would make great set-up men? A large percentage. Just because a player is good in one role doesn’t mean he should be limited to that role.
Here’s another way to look at it: Joba has been available to pitch in 15 games this season. He has appeared in five of those games for a total of 6.1 innings. That’s 19 outs.
If he were a starter, he would have appeared in three of those 15 games for about 20 innings. That’s 60 outs.
Why in the world would you want a player of that caliber to be used 69 percent less than he could be? It makes no sense.
One brush fire, extinguished.
This entry was posted
on Monday, April 21st, 2008 at 6:47 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Thanks for the update, Pete!
look at mr. big scoop!
I hope the situation is diffused.
Mike and the Maddog have been beyond idiotic with their pontificating regarding Joba
Great post Peter. Glad to see you come down on the right side in this issue.
On your game today, Pete =D
You da man Joe - keep it up!
joe = epic fail
Joe = Mike Francessa
Joe = Probably just really bored.
He’s in the bullpen and will be making the transition to the bullpen? Excellent!
Anyway, I’m glad that Cashman has perhaps talked some sense into the elder Steinbrenner brother.
joe=middle school dropout
If there were an award for Sanity in Sports Journalism, Pete would be a shoe-in for his writing on Joba.
Rebecca
How’s your Henry 7th paper coming along?
Will you be done by the Scranton game?
Pete-
Way to get the word out to the hardcore fans. Enjoy the rest of your night off.
The real issue here is that Hank just needs to shut up. Jack Lemmon had a great line in “Glengarry Glen Ross” which was that “you don’t take a drink unless you know what the shot is”. Hank, once again, had his facts wrong, this time about the Joba decision in 2007, and was misguided in thinking they could put him in the rotation by this weekend. Yammerin’ Hank clearly does not understand baseball. It runs in the family.
As for Mike and The Dog, I love those guys’ show, but do they forget that trading for and signing Santana would have pushed the Yanks’ payroll to $230 MILLION, $100 MILLION higher than ANY OTHER TEAM? Let’s take a breather.
i want everyone to know I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!!!
mel-
Never got back to you about the NBA playoffs.
Should there be a change where in the playoff system where you are not guaranteed a playoff berth based on your zipcode?
Golden State got the shaft, how is Hotlanta in the playoffs? I know why, but the rules should be changed so that a team 8 games under .500 gets in.
Actually, that’s 110% Cashman/90% Hank. So it’s a non-issue? What will we talk about?
How about Wang vs. Contreras. Don’t we like hitting against Jose?
Just a update for the fans who booed LaTroy for wearing number 21.
There will be a documentary on Roberto Clemente a true Hall of Famer and more imporatant Hero.
Unlike the overrated Paul O’Neil who will never have his number retired by the Yankees.And the Paul O’Neil Squad Derek Jeter and POsada can go to every Yankee forcing them not to wear 21.
He could also have appeared in 4 games, pitched 14 innings and have an ERA over 9. (See: Kennedy, Ian)
Just because he has great ‘potential’ does not mean that he is guaranteed to be a great starter. Certainly he is not the answer to the rotation issues this year, as he would (and still will) likely struggle similarly to the way Hughes and Kennedy have struggled.
Thanks Peter
“Hank wasn’t involved last season and he didn’t understand what we were doing at that time,” Cashman said. “I explained it to him and he had no problems with it.”
I’m surprised Cashman had never bother explaining this to Hank before today. Hank has the tendency to meddle and to make rash judgment without enough knowledge. Cashman should always proactively manage Hank.
Buddy,
A 50-win team not making it when sub-500 teams are in? Criminal. Strength of schedule favors the east, too.
Maybe 6 division winners and 6 best records after that?
Is Lord Baron Davis back? A lot was made of the tiff. But why WAS Davis on the bench?
All of the Mike’s involved in NY sports radio should STFU. They don’t get paid to be accurate, they get paid for ratings, and ratings go up when controversy is stirred.
oops. 6 division and 10 best records after that.
mel-
Boom Dizzle will be back, not sure why he was benched. Isn’t this Nellie’s schtick though?
I like your idea of 6 division winners & 6 best records afterwards.
Chris -
Yes Kennedy (and to a slightly lesser extent, Hughes) has stuggled but one problem we experience here is that lots of people have been premature ejaculators with their immediate expectations and insistence to make a changes - like the first time a pitcher gives up a crooked number.
oops. 6 division and 10 best records after that.
Many thanks for following-up on this story, Pete.
I find it interesting that supposedly Hank wasn’t aware of innings limits for the young pitchers. To me, this points out his own limited knowledge of the actual baseball operations. It might be that is truly is the case, as he referred to his “baseball people” in the original story in the Times, and how he depends on them, if I recall correctly. If so, then your post above is reassuring - assuming, of course, that what Cash told you is true. I sure hope so.
Chris:
So because Joba could be poor, they should never try it? Why even play the game at all because everybody could underperform.
I don’t understand that thinking. You have to at least try it. If after a year or two it doesn;t work out, move him back to the ‘pen.
Not all three of them will work out. But you need to try them all to increase the odds of finding one good starter for the future.
Hank is impatient. Quite frankly I don`t blame him. He ave Cash all $$$ he needs and he still has only two true major pitchers in his rotation. Two young “guns” that Cash told Hank would be good enough to carry their weight, good enough to not trade for Santana.
Why does Girardi not like Shelly?
They could use him.
Hank is exactly like George used to be. Reacting without listening to his “baseball people”.
Hank > George > Joe (even though he was first)
If anyone’s interested - I was just checking out Chad Jennings’ SWB blog - and Darrell Rasner is continuing to do well, as is Brett Gardner. Shelley and Juan Miranda aren’t being slouches, either.
It was all premature in the first place. Joba plans remain the same, he’ll be a starter later than sooner. The only way the plan changes is if Hughes and Kennedy continuously regress. The only pitcher of real concern is Mussina.
It’s amazing how many Yankee fans on the radio are dumping on Hughes and Kennedy.
Forget that they’re in their first full year. They’re already bums cause they haven’t looked good so far. Fans are ready to run them out of town. I think it’s safe to say that lots of Yankee fans are impatient and would good nuts if they did happen to miss the playoffs.
And some folks have the nerve to wonder why New York fans are labeled impatient and get mad when someone says you can’t rebuild in New York.
jimmy: I am done with the thesis except for fixing citations and some grammatical errors. I have just one other, 7 page paper and one final draft to do–I’ll do both this weekend.
You sure Cash didn’t see the comments in the blog first?
If you’ve been a Yankees fan for a long time, this is definitely amusing to watch.
Thank heavens Cash is running the ship.
Rebecca - That’s gret. Congratulations on finishing your thesis.
Rebecca-
Cool, good luck.
If not for their albatross contracts Giambi, Mussina, and Damon would be out of Yankee uniforms in a New York minute and replaced by the deserving Duncan, Rasner, and Gardner.
Fran and jimmy: Thanks. I defend on 5 May, you all should totally come watch
Don’t know if anybody saw this line but Hank had advice for Mussina also”
“[Mussina] just needs to learn how to pitch like Jamie Moyer,” Steinbrenner told the newspaper, hinting that Mussina should stop relying on his fastball for results.
How long before Hank really comes out and blasts Mussina?!
Pete -
My point is that we need to temper our expectations with him. Specifically this year it should be assumed that any production you get out of him as a starter is a bonus. He needs the innings to continue to develop as a starter for the future, but you can’t assume that any of those innings will help the team this year.
As for long term, you have to give him 2 full years as a starter before moving him to the bullpen permanently. Conveniently, this would match with when Mo’s contract is up if Joba flops as a starter.
Anybody seen any good movies lately?
59% ???
I get (60-19)/60= 41/60= 68.333% less.
Does anyone have a link to the most recent interior photos of Citi Field? I know its a little off topic but I asked in the last post but no one responded.
Joba ought to remain in the bullpen, and here’s why: Looking at how many innings he pitches and comparing it to a starter only accounts for part of the picture. Sure, he gets less time on the mound as a set up man, but the importance of the outs he gets outweighs that of the outs in the 1st inning. That is, if you don’t have a reliable setup man. I know this argument has been heard before, but I have to ask what is the good of getting 7 scoreless frames from Joba without a reliable bridge to Mariano. Until you can actually say who is going to fill Joba’s shoes in the 8th, he should stay there, regardless of how he was drafted.
From Joel Sherman: apparently Micah Owings was never available. Hopefully we can put that rumor to rest.
Micah Owings is one of many things to love about the Diamondbacks. Manager Bob Melvin left Owings in to hit even though he was about to pull him from a game. He’s a .314 career hitter (with a .614 slugging percentage). The Yankees tried hard for Owings in Randy Johnson trade talks after the 2006 season, even offering to send Arizona a few million more if they’d include him. No go.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/04/21/heyman.thomas/1.html
I think what a lot of people don’t realize that Joba has been a starter his entire career. he came up through the minors as a starter and excelled as one. That is how he got recognition to be brought up to the majors. If Joba is not able to excel as a starter in the major leagues after a couple seasons, then I can see moving him down as Mariano’s replacement. Otherwise, starter all the way!
Pete, I’m not sure your argument really works. It seems like it just boils down to saying that the role of a starter is more important than the role of a reliever. Fine. But what about if a particular player (in this case Joba) performs much better in one role rather than the other? We need to take that into account. Joba is a genuinely dominant reliever. Do we know he’ll be a dominant starter at the major league level? No. I’m not opposed to forcing a switch in his role, but we should keep in mind that a player may not be equally good in different roles. Joba himself admitted in spring training that he threw more freely as a reliever rather than as a starter. These types of things all need to be factored into the analysis.
“Not all three of them will work out. But you need to try them all to increase the odds of finding one good starter for the future”
how can swami pete know that? all three could work out. it’s not likely, but it could happen. barring injury how is joba not going to be good? he’s already good. hughes looks like the real thing with a good fastball that has natural movement.
kennedy is the one who’s marginal because he doesn’t have the natural stuff the other two have, and his composure is showing cracks that weren’t seen before. but he still has shown signs he could put it together.
hehe
The forbidden kingdom
[see all together] Manhunter, silence of lambs, red dragon, Hannibal rising
oh yeah, plus Leaving Las Vegas
There is a reason why Pete is the best Yankee writer on the beat and this post is an example why.
It would be so easy to fall into the pack mentality among the NY media and trumpet two clowns like Mike and the Mad Dog.
It would get you radio time, which is good pub for the newspaper, and would place you in the “media elite” in town. Helpful to one’s career, on some levels. Even if you look like a fool in the process, as we see with Francesa and Russo on a daily basis.
Instead, Pete rationally explains why this is not only not a controversy but, from a baseball perspective, isn’t even a story. He then gets direct quotes from Cashman diffusing this supposed “dust up”.
As far as Hank and any percieved “issues” with Cashman, believe me, Brian Cashman has faced MUCH, MUCH worse working for George than this stuff! This isn’t even a blip on the radar.
In his first day on the job, as an intern with the Yankees, George gave Cashman a job. Escort Jim Bowden (George had just fired him) out of the building, making sure he didn’t take anything that belonged to the Yankees (scouting info, arbitration evidence, etc.) and he better do the job correctly or he won’t have a Day 2 as an intern.
Some of you younger posters have no idea, ZERO, what it was like to work for George Steinbrenner. The kindly older man we see now is nothing like George was in his heyday.
Hank in full bluster mode can’t even come close to what George was like on a normal day. Let alone when he was fired up. In 20+ years of working for the Yankees, Cashman has seen it all.
When you have break into baseball as “muscle” for the owner, its all downhill from there! lol
Thanks robb
Seen the Harris movies liked them a lot except Hannibal rising (too over-the-top for me)
Do you prefer Red Dragon or Manhunter?
Forbidden Kingdom looks fun - but the kid looks like a poor man’s Shia Lebeuf.
“CanIGetAMooseCall
April 21st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Pete, I’m not sure your argument really works. It seems like it just boils down to saying that the role of a starter is more important than the role of a reliever. Fine. But what about if a particular player (in this case Joba) performs much better in one role rather than the other? We need to take that into account. Joba is a genuinely dominant reliever. Do we know he’ll be a dominant starter at the major league level? No. I’m not opposed to forcing a switch in his role, but we should keep in mind that a player may not be equally good in different roles. Joba himself admitted in spring training that he threw more freely as a reliever rather than as a starter. These types of things all need to be factored into the analysis.”
What if he’s a dominant starter?
What ifs are boring - his stuff is too good to waste in the ‘pen without giving him at least a year+ as a starter.
“I know this argument has been heard before, but I have to ask what is the good of getting 7 scoreless frames from Joba without a reliable bridge to Mariano.”
you have to be kidding me.
what good are getting 7 scoreless innings?
so, the Yankees can get 7 scoreless innings in innings 1-7, and have Mo pitch the 9th, but should be worried about the 8th inning?
did someone change the rules so that any runs in the 8th inning are worth triple?
if the Yankees get 7 scoreless and a scoreless 9th, they will win 99.99% of these play.
you could put a pitcher with an ERA of 9.00 in that role and he will only give up an average of 1 run each time.
seriously, am i taking crazy pills?
““I know this argument has been heard before, but I have to ask what is the good of getting 7 scoreless frames from Joba without a reliable bridge to Mariano.”
you have to be kidding me.
what good are getting 7 scoreless innings?
so, the Yankees can get 7 scoreless innings in innings 1-7, and have Mo pitch the 9th, but should be worried about the 8th inning?
did someone change the rules so that any runs in the 8th inning are worth triple?
if the Yankees get 7 scoreless and a scoreless 9th, they will win 99.99% of these play.
you could put a pitcher with an ERA of 9.00 in that role and he will only give up an average of 1 run each time.
seriously, am i taking crazy pills?”
Totally agreed.
I have absolutely NO idea why the 8th inning is so important. It’s not magical.
The difference between a marginal starter and a good starter is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than the difference between Farnsworth in the 8th and Joba in the 8th.
“Instead, Pete rationally explains why this is not only not a controversy but, from a baseball perspective, isn’t even a story. He then gets direct quotes from Cashman diffusing this supposed “dust up”.”
right, except this was only a few hours after Pete wrote an entry called “The Bronx Zoo: Open for Business”.
don’t get me wrong, i am very grateful that Pete followed up on the story and got the facts, but let’s not pretend he is completely innocent of “stirring the pot”.
Evening everyone. I uploaded some pictures from yesterdays game. enjoy
http://public.fotki.com/yankeeschick/yankees-vs-baltimore/
Another solid outing for Darrell Rasner so far tonight.
He’s pitching a 1 hitter, has walked 1, 0 runs, 4K’s.
Scranton is winning 1-0.
He was 2-0 coming into the game and his ERA is now down to 0.78.
That’s pretty impressive.
He may be pitching himself into the conversation for a callup soon.
I prefer Manhunter over Silence and both over the last two, which really are kind of jaded but still worth seeing. I hear that they’re considering re-making Manhunter with Hopkins. Not sure if this is a rumor or it is in the works. Forbidden Kingdom is just brainless fun - a good break for any depressed Yankee fan.
Hmmm,
I’m giving Pete a pass on that one.
Like a pitcher who throws a HR pitch, I think he may want that entry back! lol
WOW, some older posters here really like to see themselves in type, while telling others what they should be thinking, when really all that he/she is doing is stating the obvious.
Note to the older folks: People know how to read between the lines. No need for a dissertation on the antics of the Steinbrenner clan. Young does not equal stupid.
Pete, great to see you in Baltimore! I hope you liked some fans yelling to you on the field during BP instead of the players!! Your job looks so fun! Well, okay, hanging out at BP looks so fun. I guess the other stuff can get tedious! Keep up the awesome job. I’ll be sure to give you shout outs at future BP’s.
Fan from CT!
i think the pressure on the yankees right now is that the red sox have won 9 of 10 in the last two times through the rotation staring with beckett’s start against the yankees in boston.
with all due respect to cashman,i still don’t pay any attention to what he says about sticking to original plan with joba if the red sox lead goes to 7-8 games. last year there was a plan for hughes . cashman didn’t follow that when the red sox lead grew to dangerous levels.
the biggest help would be for the offense to snap out of their funk. their offense is basically the orioles right now. they are not good. it would help hughes and kennedy if they had some runs to work with. when they were pitching in august and september they had an offense behind them.
with the lousy starts the yankee offense has had in the last few springs, maybe april is not the best time to bring up rookies. igawa couldn’t have done any worse than hughes and kennedy. i’d rather he had to deal with the lack of support than the two kids.
SJ: True story? Whoa man.
I wasn’t even a factor in the cosmos when George started, probably a good thing he’ calmed down a tiny bit.
But you can never say that he didn’t care about the team.
Rasner gets through 7 with the one hitter still in tact.
1 hit, 1BB, 5K’s. 78 pitches, 55 strikes.
Still 1-0 Scranton, bottom of the 7th.
Does anyone know if other teams have innings limits for the young’uns like the Yanks do?
This is off of newsdays site. It is a stupid choice. No one thinks (at least I hope not)that Joba would be taken and put in the rotation the next day.
I believe Buchholz is on a cap.
Probably so Rebecca, but it isn’t as much of a story.
Every team in baseball has their young pitchers on innings caps.
They vary from team to team. Most do fall into the +30 innings per year standard used by the Yankees, Red Sox and several other teams.
Hmmmm … You have a good point there on the perceived chasm between the 7th (sometimes 6th) and the 9th. While the important ‘in between’ innings have been touch-and-go, especially if the starter is out by the 6th (meaning: trouble has already struck) this stretch seems to be greatly magnified to M&MD, chicken little and all their friends.
i freakin love micah owings, he is one of the biggest sleepers in fantasy baseball as far as pitching is concerned.
Micah Owings is cool.
I have Justin Upton who is just as cool.
The entire Diamondbacks roster, really, is sweet as sugar.
Jay I picked him up!!
Rasner gave up a single in the 8th, then retired the next batter.
2 hit shutout after his 8 innings of work thus far. 90 pitches, 63 strikes.
2-0 Scranton, bottom of the 8th.
FWIW, Brett Gardner is getting another start in LF tonight. That’s the third I know of in the last 10 days.
Auditioning? Makes you wonder.
Randy 1 - You’re right about the Yankees’ propensity towards reacting to the Red Sox, as surely as the Sox react to the Yankees. Both teams deny it, but it’s clear that it’s true. (”Hold your enemies closer.”) Hughes callup last year is a perfect example; it was obviously a reaction to the Sox’ quick start.
Your comment about the Yanks’ offensive funk is valid. I was surprised to learn that the Sox are currently next to last in team ERA, but lead the AL in batting. Not a formula for long range success, but it has fueled a nice April run.
But both teams had best achieve significant improvement in pitching. For the Sox, Bucholtz was solid today, and the gun had his fastball regularly in the mid-90s. I hadn’t seen that before, even during his no-no. So maybe the Hughes velocity, which I keep hearing about (but have never seen) will emerge also. If it doesn’t, I can’t see him being a dominant pitcher.
“Hughes callup last year is a perfect example; it was obviously a reaction to the Sox’ quick start.”
Bull. It was a reaction to the heinous pitching woes. Their rotation was an injury-ridden shambles. He was their best option to win ballgames. It wasn’t a reaction to the Sox…it was a reaction to losing. If it had been Toronto in first, they’d have done the same thing.
“the gun had his fastball regularly in the mid-90s”
Then the gun was juiced. The kid’s NEVER thrown that hard. Phil hasn’t either. He’s been 91-92 in his career, topping out at 94 when he reaches back for it. It’s not like Hughes is really missing much velocity. He’s either not trusting his stuff, or not getting his good movement for some reason.
Whozat …. Hughes callup was a reaction to the Sox AND a stopgap to their pitching woes. But, if the Yankees had outslugged the oppossition to the tune of a 5 game lead over the Sox, do you really think they would have called Hughes up? Do you really think they would have started him later in the year with a balky hamstring (which allegedly affected his velocity)?
Re: Radar guns. The NESN gun is typically low, so I’m surprised at today’s readings. It might well be juiced. As I said, I’ve never seen Bucholz clocked this high (though some scouting reports had him in the mid-90s).
But I’m quite sure that Hughes has always been billed as a mid-90s, fastball/curveball power pitcher. If this is all he’s got, Hank should have insisted on Santana.
Are Rasner and Gardner making a case to be elevated ? Stay tuned tomorrow.
Just let Mussina have another rocky outing in the Windy City on Wednesday and Rasner for one cannot be ignored.
I freaking love Chipper Jones right now in fantasy if he can stay healthy. It’s hilarious that two of the players I’ve traded for him have totally tanked so far and all of the players I’ve gotten in return have been stellar aside from that one disastrous start from Wang.
Aaaand speaking of Chipper and the Braves, I hope they think they can’t afford Texeira and give us a shot at him so we can have a first baseman for real next year.
SJ,
Matsui and Damon aren’t that great defensively, but Matsui is swinging the bat ok and Damon isn’t a complete disaster yet. Do you think they’re benching one of them along with Giambi to stick him in LF and DH the other? Melky and Abreu have been pretty solid.
You are making this judgment based on 4 starts this year?
For the record, neither Hughes nor Buchholz have ever been “mid-90’s” guys with their fastballs.
Among the most incorrect information running around the web re: Phil Hughes has been his velocity readings. He has never sat in the mid-90’s at any time as a professional.
When I say, “sat in the mid-’90’s”, I am talking multiple fastballs in a row at that velocity.
He has never been that type of pitcher.
He’s always been 91-94 and his velocity has always increased as he went into the season.
I wish folks would take a little time and go back and look at the first 4 starts of 21 year old pitchers around baseball.
Guys like Santana, Clemens, Schilling, etc.
If fans want to make a judgement on Hughes based on 4 starts, nobody can stop you.
For members of the media to do so, people who are supposed to more in tune with the game they are covering, is laughable.
Scranton gets the win, 3-0 this evening.
Jose Veras came on for Rasner in the 9th and struck out the side to earn his 5th save.
Veras has had a very good start to the season. 9 innings, only 3 BB, 15K’s, 2.00 ERA and 5 saves.
Another guy who may pitch himself into the mix for work in NY later in the season.
Can’t wait to see Scranton on Saturday now
Matsui isn’t going anywhere. IMO, he will be the DH for most of the season.
They will use him in LF and RF but, he will get most of his AB’s as a DH.
Giambi? Its going to be a very interesting question as we go forward.
I know very well the money involved. I also know there isn’t a team in MLB, including the Yankees, that can keep a roster spot for the entire season for a no field, .130 hitting first baseman.
Unless he gets going soon, the question of “what to do with Jason Giambi”, may be one that is going to have to be answered sooner rather than later.
Damon? I think they are going to give him every opportunity to get going because of what he means to the offense. Its a different offensive team when he is on his game.
They also seem to be hedging their bets by having Gardner play LF in some of the games in AAA.
Its like anything else. If you produce, you get PT. If the kids in the minors continue to play well, it may give the Yankees some internal options if the need arises.
It would be great if once, just once, the Steinbrenner family would let Cashman do hi job.
I’ve said it before and cited it numerous times:
1. If it wasn’t for George, Vlad Guerrero would be patrolling RF right now, not Sheff for a few years then Abreu. Cashman wanted Vlad, and ol’ George went out and personally signed Gary Sheffield before the 2004 season.
2. If it wasn’t for George, Beltran would be patrolling center. Carlos was a huge fan and idolized Bernie Williams. He went to the NYY and offered to take LESS money than what the Mets offered so he could be Berne’s replacement. Cashman again really wanted Beltran, but instead, George went out and got Randy Johnson, b/c I guess that was the winter of belt-tightening, and they couldn’t swing both.
Now I know Cashman has made his goofs with pitchers (see: Pavano, Carl; Wright, Jarent; Igawa, Kei– we’ll blame Randy on King George!), but imagine if the OF was:
LF Matsui, (Cabrera), CF Beltran and RF Vlad….
Yikes. That would have been vicious from 2004 on through…
Hank is well aware that Cashman was given explicit instructions by George to get Giambi and Mussina but it doesn’t mean he has to be happy with their contributions in the last year. It’s only a matter of time before he makes his feelings known to both players later in the season even if they are coming off the books at the end of this year.
“If this is all he’s got, Hank should have insisted on Santana.”
Buchholz isn’t a power pitcher either. Should Lucchino have insisted the Sox flip him for Santana?
And you missed my other point…It didn’t matter that the Sox were winning the division. It mattered that the Yanks weren’t. If it’d been Toronto five games up, they’d still have made the same moves.
Amen on Owings… Too bad his offense numbers don’t translate in my fantasy league, just his pitching.
I also have Eric Byrnes and Mark Reynolds…
My whole team is basically D-Backs and Yankees, with Derek Lee at 1b.
bronxbomber: I see hat you mean, but I have to say, I’m glad with how things have shaed up so far. It’s far from perfect, obviously, but I love Melky and I love Bobby.
(Yes, I admit I’m biased)
SJ - I saw Clemens first 4 starts (and a lot more). Hughes has been compared to a young Clemens, but there’s really no comparison. Clemens threw strikes from the get-go, and he threw VERY hard. Hughes rarely makes batters miss with his 4-seamer; Clemens regularly did. All Clemens needed was consistency with what he had; Hughes needs better stuff (if he’s to be compared to a young Clemens).
SJ - Looks good for Rasner and Veras. However, before we go annointing them, we should remembe the caliber of competition they’re facing. Some of these hitters may not have a very good idea of the strike zone.
Still, you can only face the competition that you’re facing. Their success can’t be ignored.
And it is interesting about Gardner playing LF. Makes one wonder what might be planned. Remember, Cash can be very quiet.
The great internal debate of the 2000 winter for the Yankees. What a hot stove that was. I thought FOR SURE Manny was coming to the Yankees.
They had to choose between an AL East proven ace in his early 30s (Mussina) or a beast of a RH hitter in his late 20s (Ramirez).
The Sox were all over Mussina too. They got Manny days after the Yankees signed the Moose…
Ol’ Buster was a good beat writer for the NYT until ESPN came rolling in with their $$$ and stole away another good beat writer.
Rebecca…
Bobby is a very patient hitter, and he should thrive in front of A-Rod in the batting order.
BUT, he came into camp full of White Castles last year and it affected him for half the year.
And the man is scared to death of the wall in the OF. That JD Drew HR last weekend should have been caught.
People, people, this is a TEMPORARY problem. Right now we have Joba to handle the 8th inning, which is great because he’s one of the best ever in that role and we pretty much all agree that the winner of the 8th inning will usually win the game. No other inning comes close in importance.
Still, bullied by the blustery owner, the Yanks’ so-called ‘baseball people’ want to MESS WITH WHAT’S WORKING (which you should NEVER DO) and insert Joba into the rotation, a role for which he is clearly unsuited (based on his success as Mr. 8th Inning). How long with this Job-speriment last? Knowing how stubborn Hank is, they could leave Joba to flounder in the rotation all the way through 2009, if not longer.
So what can the Yanks brain(less)trust do to fill this coming GAPING HOLE in the bullpen? In the short term, nothing. By taking Joba out of the bullpen, they’re basically conceding this season (and possibly even welcoming the Curse of Joba).
But there is a possible solution for 2009, should this folly persist. There is a pitcher who will be available for 2009 and beyong to fill what we now all recognize as the most crucial role on any major league roster. I submit for your approval the 2009 setup man, the bridge to Rivera, and the likely 2009 Cy Young and MVP winner: C.C. Sabathia.
You’re welcome.
Who is comparing him to a “Young Clemens”? The media? Fans?
They are nothing alike. They don’t pitch the same way.
You know who is a “Young Clemens”? Joba Chamberlain.
You want to compare their credentials at a similar time?
They pitch the same way.
Just because somebody in the media compares a pitcher to a “Young Clemens” doesn’t mean a thing.
How many, “He’s the next Jordan’s” have we heard about in the NBA?
Its what the media does to draw buzz. It doesn’t make it a fact.
Phil Hughes is a 21 year old kid scuffling like just about EVERY 21 year old starter has in the last 20 years in baseball, with the exception of Doc Gooden and a few others.
It takes time to work things out. 4 starts isn’t “time”.
Perhaps in NY, with a fickle fan base and media but, not in a baseball sense.
I don’t know why folks feel the need to make a definitive judgment on Hughes (and also Kennedy) right now.
No matter where you fall in the debate, you aren’t going to be right after 4 starts.
Its something we aren’t going to know for sure for years, not weeks.
Damon is hitting the same amount of LD’s he always has, but his BABIP is only .235. he is seeing 4.0 pitches per plate appearance, which is the same as he always has.
he’s drawing walks and has 7 XBH’s in 65 ABs.
in other words, there is reason to think Damon has just been a little unlucky so far and once some more of those singles start falling in, his numbers will look pretty good.
there is hope for Damon. same for Cano, who is also hitting lots of LDs that just aren’t falling in.
Giambi on the other hand, i don’t know what they should do. i’d give him a little longer, but if he doesn’t get going, they will probably have to give Shelley a shot.
bronxbomber: But I’d be scared of the wall, too!
Also, you guys might be interested: Cubs had bases loaded, no one out, and now a strike out and pop fly later the Mets might get out of it without allowing a run.
So it’s not just the Yankees that think RISP means Runners in Stranded Position
Or maybe not.
“And the man is scared to death of the wall in the OF. That JD Drew HR last weekend should have been caught.”
This is such nonsense. He didn’t make that catch because his back hit the wall in mid-jump. What on earth does that have to do with being “scared of the wall”?
Cubbies up 7-1 now
“So maybe the Hughes velocity, which I keep hearing about (but have never seen) will emerge also. If it doesn’t, I can’t see him being a dominant pitcher.”
brian (red sox fan)-
you’ve been spending too much time in yalta. hughes has natural movement on his fastball that buccholz only dreams of and has been hitting 93-94 as the weather has warmed up. jim palmer the other night while watching hughes gave his enthusiastic endorsement of him. where was buccholz two years ago? hughes is two years younger. he’s the second youngest player in the major leagues.
that’s really old news to everyone here but i thought i’d bring you up to speed since you were off your yalta vacation slacking off on baseball. rooting against hughes will be a losing battle in the long run.
It comes back to trying to compete while relying on two kids to make 60 starts. If the Yankees weren’t trying to contend, these struggles would be a non-issue.
You have to get ahead of batters. Good pitchers understand the importance of strike one. You cannot continue and continue to put hitters in good counts, they will murder you. It does not matter who you are. This is the bigs.
Everyone said to be patient and here we are 20 games in going insane.
The ever stealth Cashman will make an announcement tomorrow. Nothing of major proportions but enough to cause increased banter on this board.
I don’t think Hughes will ever be a true #1
The night Phil pitched at Fenway Joe Morgan actually made an interesting point.
That night both Matsuzaka and Hughes were throwing at very similar velocities (92-94).
But Morgan made a point that Phil’s fastball looked much faster and would be much more difficult for a hitter to handle than Matsuzaka’s because Hughes has a lot of late life and movement on his fastball while Matsuzaka does not.
Now he had no command that night but his ball had a lot of movement (too much movement).
No one knowledgeable about Phil’s stuff has ever said they were impressed by his raw velocity. What people have said about him having a plus fastball has always been related to that late life and his command.
Last year even with all of the injury time he missed he was striking out 8/9 innings.
You don’t strike out 8/9 if you’re not missing bats.
The command is missing right now but when he gets his mechanics ironed out that’s going to return as will that late life inside the zone.
“People know Joba because he was able to temporarily fill a need in the bullpen. Do you know how many starters would make great set-up men? A large percentage. Just because a player is good in one role doesn’t mean he should be limited to that role.”
This should say, “Just because a player is good in one role doesn’t mean he’ll be good in another role.” Unless of course you think that Mariano Rivera would have still been one of the greats had he continued his career as a starter.
I got it!!!
Hughes just needs to pitch like Jamie Moyer…
I know I’ve been a Rasner supporter all year which hasn’t always been the way most on the board think, but its pretty hard to ignore what he’s been doing. He’s 3-0 in four starts with a 0.7 era.
I’ve got to believe he would help the Yankees right now especially compared to Mussina… nothing left and Kennedy… will be good but simply needs more time in the minors
SJ ….. I agree that Joba resembles a young Clemens; and, apparently, we both agree that Hughes does not.
But I think that most Yankee fans thought that they Hughes was indeed a young Clemens when they clamored for the Yankees to retain him this winter. That was the hype (much of it driven/encouraged by the Yankees themselves).
Joba’s stuff is eye-popping. Hughes’ stuff is, well, OK. He’s like one of those McDonald’s Basketball All-Americans (e.g. Felipe Lopez) who aren’t as impressive once you’ve seen them in person. You go back and re-check the magazines and wonder who the evaluators were talking about.
And it has nothing to do with “just four starts.” His stuff has been pedestrian. Doesn’t mean he can’t be successful, but there’s no “WOW” factor with this guy.
“Papelboner
April 21st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
I don’t think Hughes will ever be a true #1″
I don’t think man has ever landed on the moon.
Kudos to Peter for having the guts to even correct himself and stop a controversy that was never even there except to a few media. He went after the actual information instead of just offering supposition. Yes he bought the initial story but he had the smarts to dig deeper and get it straight for us fans. That is what I like about Pete, he doesn’t let his own “think” get in the way but instead finds out what really happened.
“Unless of course you think that Mariano Rivera would have still been one of the greats had he continued his career as a starter.”
1996 Mariano was a dominant set up man. One of the most dominant (if not the most dominant) set up man baseball had ever seen, especially with his ability to throw 2 innings in a row.
I guess in 1997 they were just stupid to even think of changing him from that role given how dominant he was as set up man.
They were just idiots for tampering with that kind of dominance in the set up role and taking a chance on the unknown.
They made a major mistake moving Mariano to a new role - he was so dominant as a set up man they were never able to get anyone else to fill in and to be that good in that role ever again.
Ever since they moved Mariano from that set up man role they’ve never ever found anyone even close to being as dominant (until joba I suppose…)
What a mistake they made tampering with a given, messing around with dominant success.
“But Morgan made a point that Phil’s fastball looked much faster and would be much more difficult for a hitter to handle than Matsuzaka’s because Hughes has a lot of late life and movement on his fastball while Matsuzaka does not.”
jim palmer basically said the same thing. observations like that from morgan make me wonder why so many people think he’s so bad . i think he just talks too much about the mechanics of the game for a new generation that hasn’t played much and has no clue what he’s talking about.
“If it wasn’t for George, Vlad Guerrero would be patrolling RF right now, not Sheff for a few years then Abreu. Cashman wanted Vlad, and ol’ George went out and personally signed Gary Sheffield before the 2004 season.”
absolutely true.
“If it wasn’t for George, Beltran would be patrolling center. Carlos was a huge fan and idolized Bernie Williams. He went to the NYY and offered to take LESS money than what the Mets offered so he could be Berne’s replacement. Cashman again really wanted Beltran, but instead, George went out and got Randy Johnson, b/c I guess that was the winter of belt-tightening, and they couldn’t swing both.”
what a bunch of crap ! Bernie was still here and it was Brian who decided to go elsewhere George wanted Beltran and no offense but on Beltran I’m crying about that one.
“Now I know Cashman has made his goofs with pitchers (see: Pavano, Carl; Wright, Jarent; Igawa, Kei– we’ll blame Randy on King George!), but imagine if the OF was:”
goofs ? they were F… ups, but he learned through his mistakes
“LF Matsui, (Cabrera), CF Beltran and RF Vlad….
Yikes. That would have been vicious from 2004 on through…”
true but get your facts right. Vlad has been hurt multiple times, so has Beltran and Matsui.
Randy my problem with Joe MOrgan is his mistakes with facts, his obsession with himself, and his constantly ignoring what is happening on the field to hear himself speak. He is okay sometimes but for the most part he just goes on and on and on.
Joba has been a SP all his career and deserves the chance to perform at the ML level
May I suggest that I think this blog would be more enjoyable for all if there is less yelling, scolding, ridiculing, and proclamation of the sky falling. Thanks!
“This is such nonsense. He didn’t make that catch because his back hit the wall in mid-jump. What on earth does that have to do with being “scared of the wall”?”
Dan, I couldn’t disagree more. Abreu is terrified of the wall. Trust me, I am not the first person to ever point this out. He has a great arm, he can hit for avg, steal a base or two, and jack some bombs. He is a patient hitter in what can and will be an awesome offense.
But the guy is scared of the wall… Petrified may be the better word….
Again, this isn’t news… This has been a knock against Abreu for quite some time. One of the reasons for his fall from grace in PHI (my father in law has been a season ticket holder for years) was Abreu being too timid in the OF.
Not asking him to be Johnny Damon, circa 2002, or even a modern day Eric Byrnes and crash into every wall in each of the 30 parks….
But geesh… Its like a mechanic being afraid of a muffler…
gonna have some unhappy Mets fans tonight
ManRam’s cousin hurt them and Ronny (..giggles) Cedeno
Brandon… everyone gets hurt. Vlad was in his late 20s when the Angels signed him. Sheffield was mid-30s. Vlad won the MVp that year. Beltran has been a monster in NY. Sure, he misse dtime when crazy Mike Cameron and him smashed faces in that awful OF collision.
Its kind of a moot point now anyway. It was the theory that counted. However, FWIW, IMHO, I’d take a healthy Matsui-Beltran-Vlad OF from 2004 thru 2007 over a healthy Matsui-Damon/Bernie/Cabrera - Abreu OF any day of the week and twice on Sunday!!!
And Cashman was dying for Beltran, according to Buster Olney. Along with the rest of the NYY front office. Even Beltran was dying to don pinstripes.
But George said one or the other, and he ultimately forced Cashman’s hand in getting Randy Johnson, a pitcher ol’ Steinbrenner had coveted since the 90s, a true, snarling ace that he felt the team was missing after Clemens departure.
If you haven’t already (and I’m sure you have), pick up a copy of The Last Night of the Yankees Dynasty, by Buster Olney. Great book…
“true but get your facts right. Vlad has been hurt multiple times, so has Beltran and Matsui.”
And so has Damon, Abreu, and so on… Look what happened to Bernie for crying out loud…
““Unless of course you think that Mariano Rivera would have still been one of the greats had he continued his career as a starter.”
1996 Mariano was a dominant set up man. One of the most dominant (if not the most dominant) set up man baseball had ever seen, especially with his ability to throw 2 innings in a row.
I guess in 1997 they were just stupid to even think of changing him from that role given how dominant he was as set up man.
They were just idiots for tampering with that kind of dominance in the set up role and taking a chance on the unknown.
They made a major mistake moving Mariano to a new role - he was so dominant as a set up man they were never able to get anyone else to fill in and to be that good in that role ever again.
Ever since they moved Mariano from that set up man role they’ve never ever found anyone even close to being as dominant (until joba I suppose…)
What a mistake they made tampering with a given, messing around with dominant success.”
You’re right, you got me. Moving him from 1 inning of set up to 1 inning of closing equates the same as moving him from 1 inning of set up to 6-7 innings of starting.
Talk to y’all later…
Long drive tomorrow, going to buy a new ride… Infiniti QX4…
But its all the way down in Mass… I live in Maine. Early bedtime.
Night all…
rob ny-
morgan really knows the game. `i’m not looking for someone who can pass a multiple choice about baseball facts when i listen to a game on tv. for example when morgan talks about hughes late movement he’s not talking about facts. he talking about what hughes’ pitch is doing and the effect it has on hitters.
he’s watching from the perspective of someone who’s played the game at the highest level. he’s thinking of how he would react to hughes. he’s thinking of how other hitters would react to hughes.
when morgan talks about hitters and what they are doing , he knows he’s talking about. facts just don’t enter into those kind of insights. facts are great , but i’m more interested in insights about playing the game.
a an aside, i wouldn’t mind seeing palmer teamed up with morgan sometime.
From my blog post “Underage Pitching”
http://nyyu.blogspot.com/2008/01/brian-cashman-made-yet-another.html
In 1967, 22 year old rookie Tom Seaver pitched 251 innings. Seaver went on to pitch 200+ innings every season until 1980 when he was 35.
1986, 23 year old Roger Clemens pitched 254. 1984, 19 year old Dwight Gooden, 218. 2005, Dontrelle Willis hurled 236 innings at 23. John Smoltz in 1989 checked in with 208 innings at 22 years old.
So my question to the pitching department is when do the limits end? When will you let go of the leash and turn them loose? Between 25 and 30? Give me a number!
I really wish Hank would keep his big, fat, loud, mouth SHUT and let the REAL Baseball people run the Yankee Team and its personnel decisions!
Loudmouth Hank knows less baseball than anybody in the Organization, including the peanut vendors! Someone please tell Hank about building arm strength to avoid catastophic injuries to young pitchers and the fact that Joba WILL NOT have a “100-mile-an-hour” fastball once he is a starter.
This is likely not the end of Hank’s mindless musings. A few more like this and Cashman will undoubtedly move on to a MLB owner who’s more appreciative of his talents!
this is gonna be a long night, and some posters here are just…you give Chris Russo a run for his money
Yeah I know Morgan was a great player, and I really liked Palmer with the O’s telecast, but with Morgan its always about him, he doesnt let the game breathe at all. To each his own I suppose but he gets under my skin about 4 innings into a game.
lol http://www.firejoemorgan.com/
“Mike @ NYYU”
Do you really want to include Dontrelle Willis on that list?
Read up on the ‘30 inning rule’. Honestly. It is relevant, except for -few- exceptions.
‘Babying’ pitchers is best for their long term health. Innings and pitch limits are there for a good reason - to prevent Joba from being the next Mark Prior/Kerry Wood/etc. Would you rather have 1-2 years of absolute dominance then complete and total flameout, or a 15 year career in pinstripes?
Here’s an article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/02/05/verducci.YAE/index.html
Eugie,
The only point I was trying to make is that unless you try to move a player to a new role you will never, ever know if that player can succeed in a different role.
And many, many people say that closing is very different from setting up. And there are a number of set up men who have failed as closers.
They are definitely different roles. That’s generally agreed upon.
And it’s not as if there is no precedent for Joba being a starter.
That’s all he did his entire baseball career.
The Dodgers used Chad Billingsley as a set up man last year to save him innings on his arm and then transitioned him during the year to starting and he was very good.
But again, if you never try Joba as a stater you’ve created impossible conditions for him ever succeeding in any other role.
And yes, Joba/Phil/Ian -will- be pitching 200+ innings. Just not this year. Joba will throw 150 this year, 180 next year, 210 in 2010. Rushing this is gambling with injury for little added payoff.
Hey guys, did you know Chase Utley has 9 HR already?
That’s a little crazy, especially from a 2b!
i respect joe morgan for being an outstanding player and for his occasional interesting insights in the game, but he gets on my nerves because he says so many illogical and silly things too. most recently in one of the Yankees Red Sox games this year, I think it was the game Hughes pitched, Hughes threw one of his only nasty pitches of the game to manny. it was a fastball that started middle in and had a late dive that just completely froze manny for strike 2. it was a great, great pitch. Morgan’s take on it? to paraphrase, ‘and that’s an example of how great a hitter Manny is- he got a pitch he couldn’t handle so he just took it.’ WHAT? he says that kind of crap a little too frequently for my liking.
“April 21st, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Hey guys, did you know Chase Utley has 9 HR already?
That’s a little crazy, especially from a 2b!”
He’s a damn good player - by far the best 2B in the game - he’s having a 2007 ARod month.
How pathetic is it that ESPNews is running the Steinbrenner/Cashman Joba quotes non stop in their breaking news section?
rob ny-
we all have our preferences. if he bugs you he bugs you, but i think it’s a myth that he doesn’t know the game.
i think” fire joe morgan” is basically a bunch of non african american ivy leaguers who like to make fun of the black guy. i think they are a good example of pompous elitism and yes rascism. i don’t think they’re funny.
but hey that’s just me.
Chase Utley is probably the most underrated player in baseball.
Mariano Rivera would have been a great starter, probably among the best in the sport, and to think otherwise is foolishness. Stick Michael often says he had a great change coming up in the minors, but abandoned it when he became a reliever because, quite frankly, he didn’t need it. He broke it out a little last spring (striking out Ryan Howard with it in one memorable atbat) and I have no doubt he’d have found a way to mix in enough offspeed stuff to keep teams honest.
Accepting that premise, does anyone really believe the dynasty years would have been the same with Mo in the rotation and say, Brian Boehringer closing games in the October crucible? I don’t.
Every argument for Joba starting contains the implied belief that any tomato can can shut teams down in the eight inning of tight games in a pennant race. That’s just not true. A properly balanced staff has two of the best arms at the top of the rotation and two of the best at the back of the pen.
For this year, I’ll take 100 innings of Joba, focused into the tighest games, over 150 innings in random starts, some of which will be blow outs anyway. Especially when the alternatives are named Farnsworth, Hawkins and Ohlendorf.
Rebecca: Yeah, Utley really is something else. he hits for power and average and still plays great, great defense on top of that. i can only hope that Cano turns out to be almost like an American League version of him. Don’t be surprised if Utley makes it so the Phillies produce 3 different MVPs in 3 straight seasons. The Phillies fans around here are all about Utley too. everybody with a Phillies t-shirt or jersey i see has Utley’s name on it. You’d think there would be a Rollins or a Howard here or there. He’s like the Phillies’ Jeter in terms of his popularity.
I by no means am saying that Joe Morgan doesnt know baseball. I have to assume he knows more about the game than I do. Like I said I respect the ball player he was but I just dont think he is real good at calling a game. Can’t say i’ve read firejoemorgan extensively but thats the first time i’ve heard the racist angle for them.
If he didn’t get hurt Utley would have been MVP last year.
V…
Who fills in for those innings that the kids don’t pitch?
A suspect bullpen?
“Who fills in for those innings that the kids don’t pitch?”
if your asking that question then either your not watching Yankees baseball or know nothing about the farm system.
CB
And that applies to other players on the NYY at other positions (see Rodriguez, Alex SS)
And let me say for the umpteenth time, what a great blog this is. Thank you CB, SJ, Hmmm and Whozat for educating as well as advocating.
The only negative - Whatever happened to Bobcat?
Everything I’ve ever heard, including from Mo himself, says that Mo was not a good starter. His minor league numbers as a starter were not good.
Oh well.
“Morgan’s take on it? to paraphrase, ‘and that’s an example of how great a hitter Manny is- he got a pitch he couldn’t handle so he just took it.’ WHAT? he says that kind of crap a little too frequently for my liking.”
so you think manny should have taken a little weak defensive swing and hit a weak ground ball? what’s wrong with what morgan said. he gave hughes credit for a great pitch and manny for not swinging.
i don’t see the problem.
“Mariano Rivera would have been a great starter, probably among the best in the sport, and to think otherwise is foolishness”
what ?……
10 GS, 5.51 ERA, 67.0 IP, 71 H, 30 BB 51 SO
what ? 4.03 BB per 9 IP
call me foolish, plus he didn’t have a secondary plus pitch.
“so you think manny should have taken a little weak defensive swing and hit a weak ground ball? what’s wrong with what morgan said. he gave hughes credit for a great pitch and manny for not swinging.
i don’t see the problem.”
i’m saying what Manny did was nothing spectacular. he was completely frozen on the pitch. so many other times you hear commentators say “fooled him on that one” with that sort of pitch. yeah he said “great pitch by hughes” and then gushed over how great manny was for being frozen by the pitch. i just don’t see that as a situation where you praise the hitter.
Andrea,
Mo made 10 starts as a rookie in ‘95 and went 3-3. He was bad in the three losses and was very good/excellent in the 3 wins, including a 2-hit, double digit strikeout, shutout against the Chisox. (If my memory serves correctly, Frank Thomas, who at the time was probably the best hitter in the sport, got both hits.) And he didn’t even have a cutter back then.
Brandon–those are the numbers I was talking about.
Mariano should have been a center fielder
randyhater: his minor league start numbers aren’t very good either though.
All I know is that Mo has always said he’s not a very good starter.
“if your asking that question then either your not watching Yankees baseball or know nothing about the farm system.”
Well we do know two the gems of the system aren’t getting it done right now and that the one pitcher among the high levels who MAY have the positive impact is injured and not considered to be of the caliber of the aforementioned duo.
I’m happy they’ve got some potential down on the farm, though those with the greatest potential seem 2-3 years away, but to think these guys, some of whom are frequently cited by many of us as the reason for last season’s early failures, are going a difference making impact this season is probably a tremendous stretch.
Brandon, we’ll never know. He struggled as a starter and reliever until July 1995, when he had a great month as a starter before being moved to the pen when the Yankees got David Cone.
I tend to think he wouldn’t have been a great starter, but we’ll never know. He really came into his own in July 1995. I posted this earlier, and it’s very interesting:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=riverma01&t=p&year=1995
Ok so Joba who pitched 115 or so innings last year should stay in the bullpen this year and possibly get 100 innings. In fact regressing in innings from last year, brilliant. Then next year when he can pitch 130 innings, he would have to relieve again.
The proper plan is the one the Yankees are working, 140 innings made up of 30-40 in the pen and 100 as a starter. There is no other way to get his pitch count to 140.
rob ny-
i didn’t mean to get into a serious discussion about the ethics of them naming their site after someone they think represents baseball ignorance. they are all ivy league grads. they are all non african americans. you do the math. why didn’t they call their site “fire tim mcarver” ?
i just think it’s an unfortunate choice of names for their website.
“Chase Utley is probably the most underrated player in baseball.”
Except in fantasy baseball
Top three players are ARod (3rd base), Utley (2B), Hanley Ramirez (SS). Pujols (1B) is in the top 4 if no injury concerns.
“V…
Who fills in for those innings that the kids don’t pitch?
A suspect bullpen?”
Is this an argument as to why the Yankees shouldn’t limit their innings? The health of your players - especially players you have locked in for a minimum of 6 years - is worth more than an extra win or two.
If it meant Joba was great this year, and the Cy Young next year, and the Yankees win a World Series both years, but his career is over in 2010, would you take that?
I wouldn’t.
Brandon,
All those starts were in his first year in the bigs. Like alot of guys, Hughes for instance, he ran hot and cold as a rookie.
He has three plus pitches now and most importantly, spots them on a dime. The Hall of Fame is full of guys with less than that.
He developed his cutter, as good a pitch as there is in the game, messing around in the bullpen with Petitte and Wells. I think he would’ve figured out a decent offspeed pitch.
On Rivera:
July starts in 1995:
8 innings 0 runs
6 innings, 3 runs
6 innings, 1 run
7 innings, 3 runs
He was just so bad in his previous starts that the ERA was inflated. But for July 1995 he pitched to a 2.33 ERA as a starter before being moved to the pen. He was improving as a starter, but only had one more start afterwards.
I am not concerned with our bullpen. Honestly, I am not. I think if Joba’s out, we’ll be fine. The bullpen will not lose us games if the starters can’t get it to them, and I’m not holding out hope on Mussina.
brian from pa-
i guess it’s debatable if manny was simply frozen or made the choice not to swing. with manny we’ll never know. it would have been a good question for a reporter to ask him after the game.
V-
Reyes is in the top 4, Pujols went in the 2nd round in three of my leagues.
Ooops, read that wrong, that last start in July was 5 innings 3 runs. So his ERA was 2.52 in July as a starter.
“He’s a damn good player - by far the best 2B in the game - he’s having a 2007 ARod month.”
Utley is a great player who is having a great season so far.
But if you believe in wins above replacement there wasn’t that much distance between Utley and Cano last year.
Utley had a terrific wins above replacement of 9.8.
Cano’s wins above replacement was 9.4.
I still find that surprising.
While Utley was the much better offensive player (VORP 68 vs. cano WARP 41).
But at least according to baseball prospectus’s defensive statistics, Cano was a much better defensive second baseman.
Cano saved 28 runs above an average defensive second baseman. Utley saved 4.
That 24 run difference on defense made up a lot of the difference between their offensive production.
I don’t know if I buy that given that other defensive stats sysems like Utley a lot more than BP’s.
But when last season was finished I was really surprised to see them have such close wins above replacement as I always though Utley was a signifcantly better player.
i guess a better way to explain why i felt the way i did about that comment by Morgan is the fact that, since he was a great hitter, he tends to go on and on way too much about the hitters. he spends so much of the game dissecting so much nonsense about every pointless little detail of the hitter’s perspective and a lot of what he says makes it sound like he doesn’t think pitchers have anything to do with the game. i’m not saying it isn’t interesting, he says plenty of interesting and insightful things, i just don’t like how most of the time (note, i’m not saying all the time) he seems to be oblivious to the impact good pitching has on the game. it’s like every once in a while he catches himself and says something generic to praise the pitching. i have to admit though when he was comparing the fastballs of hughes and matsuzaka i was surprised because he rarely discusses pitching beyond “that was a good pitch” or turing it back around to what the hitter is doing.
in a lot of ways it’s the opposite of somethings that bothered me about Jim Kaat on YES. Jim Kaat a felt had a lot more redeeming qualities as a broadcaster than Morgan, but there were times when he just droned on and on about some trivial detail relating to a pitcher for 2 or 3 innings and it drove me crazy. also, his displeasure for slugfests was obvious. he always sounded a lot more enthusiastic about games that were pitcher’s duels.
Again i’m not saying Morgan is “horrible”, he just bothers me more than he interests me.
by the way i don’t think there is anyone worse than Tim McCarver either.
“Mariano Rivera would have been a great starter, probably among the best in the sport, and to think otherwise is foolishness.”
Foolishness, you say? And your proof of this is…?
“Every argument for Joba starting contains the implied belief that any tomato can can shut teams down in the eight inning of tight games in a pennant race.”
Nice use of a straw man argument. Has anyone used the “any tomato can” theory in this or any other thread on this subject? Maybe you should have used the word “inferred” instead of “implied” there.
“For this year, I’ll take 100 innings of Joba, focused into the tighest games, over 150 innings in random starts…”
Ah, but aren’t the games in which Joba can be used in the 8th inning a little random too? How did Joba in the pen help in the 3 games in Boston? He could have helped if Wang had only been able to go 7 and he could have helped if Mussina and Hughes had kept the games closer, yet he went unused in all 3 games. Kind of random, no? Starts quite as random, they are usually scheduled every 5th game or so.
“Especially when the alternatives are named Farnsworth, Hawkins and Ohlendorf.”
You do know that there could be other alternatives by the time Joba moves into the rotation, right? Yes, I think you do.
“Hughes has been compared to a young Clemens, but there’s really no comparison.”
I’d say John Smoltz before I’d say Clemens, but honestly, who cares? These types of comparisons only serve the media to hype prospects and create buzz. Then people are shocked and disappointed when they don’t live up to that hype.
V,
You’re not concerned about a Joba-less bullpen? I wish I shared your optimism, but it was our biggest weakness last year and our biggest need at the deadline, and that was with Vizciano giving us 4 months of lights out production.
Assuming Joba (with a strict pitch count) joins Hughes and Kennedy/Mussina in the rotation, that’s basically 3 5-inning pitchers each time around. That’s asking for miracles from a group that’s proven nothing so far.
“Ooops, read that wrong, that last start in July was 5 innings 3 runs. So his ERA was 2.52 in July as a starter.”
ok now tell me after July
The only reasonable comparison between Hughes and Clemens i’ve ever noticed was how similar their motions are. other than that, i don’t understand why anyone would compare them.