The Bronx Zoo: Open for business
-
- April
- 21
If Brian Cashman is the GM of the Phillies or Nationals or some other team next season, remember this day.
Hank Steinbrenner told the New York Times that Joba Chamberlain needs to be in the rotation now. As in right now.
That’s fine. Then by Aug. 15 when he has reached his innings limit, Kei Igawa can take over. Or maybe on July 15 when he has Tommy John surgery. The Yankees have a plan to transition Joba into the rotation and it doesn’t call for a rash move on April 21.
Then this from Hank: “The mistake was already made last year switching him to the bullpen out of panic or whatever. I had no say in it last year and I wouldn’t have allowed it. That was done last year, so now we have to catch up.”
That’s fine, as well. The alternative would have been trading prospects for Eric Gagne then not making the playoffs. That sounds like a good plan. Or continuing to use Kyle Farnsworth in the eighth inning. How did that work?
It’s a simple math equation. Joba pitched 89 innings for Nebraska in 2006 because he was injured. Therefore, his innings in 2007 had to be carefully monitored to minimize the risk of further injury. Because he was so successful as a minor-league starter, Joba would have reached his innings cap in August.
So to fill a need in the majors and give the kid more experience, he was temporarily made into a reliever. Joba finished the season with a total of 116 innings.
Now he can probably pitch about 150 innings this season. Any more and you greatly increase the odds of injury based on a number of studies of pitchers in their early 20s. Perhaps you have heard of Francisco Liriano, Mark Prior, etc.
So the Yankees will start Joba in the pen, use him for one or two innings at a time and then put him in the rotation in July. It’s really not that complicated.
Why Hank would cause such problems for Cashman and Joe Girardi this early in the season isn’t clear. But the Steinbrenner family owns the team and they can do whatever they want.
Cashman has already said today that Joba would remain in the bullpen and they will follow the plan in place. I would imagine Hal Steinbrenner has been called in to try and add a little reason to the mix.
But if this sort of exchange is going to define how the Yankees are run, why would Cashman stick around? One thing for certain: the 29 other teams love it.
This entry was posted
on Monday, April 21st, 2008 at 3:07 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Share and Enjoy: 
| 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
The Yankees don’t need Joba in the rotation, they need Hughes and IPK to start pitching like they’re capable.
Pete, wouldn’t Joba have to be stretched out quite a bit before he went into the rotation “now”? How is that going to work???
they need Joba in rotation just not now, late June, July is more likely
Pete, hasnt Hank already came out with an explanation of his quotes, saying he was misquoted and that he understands and is in agreement with the plan for Joba going forward?
These comments made by Hank today are about as counter productive as they are proposertous. Nothing like pouring the pressure on Kennedy, Hughes, and Mussina more than they have already put on themselves. Not to mention the comment about not the starting rotation that he wanted… Go get ‘em Phil and Ian, you are three starts into the season and your owner is already second guessing keeping you in NY….
Something tells me Cashman has handled much worse.
Wow, Michael Kay just said the Orioles ripped on Hughes – that he has a straight 90-91 MPH FB and his out pitch is a curve. He also said that the O’s think that Phil is at best a #4 starter and that Ian, while no great shakes, is very like better than Phil. Now he’s saying that the whispers around the Yankee clubhouse are that Phil is not exhibiting any signs of greatness.
I don’t know what disturbs me more – that players on another team do not see any glimmer of promise in Phil (a #4?!!) or that the Yankees themselves don’t see it.
Thoughts? This really disturbs me.
not only that, but he insulted mussina by projecting the rotation without him. maybe that’s accurate, but do we really need to start alienating veterans in the clubhouse?
i like an outspoken owner, just not when they’re this stupid.
Video blog by Olney re: Hank-gate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3356911&categoryId=2378529
Betsy, Jim Palmer said that Hughes came “as advertised,” and he went on to talk about his pitches. So if Jim Palmer could see that Hughes had the stuff despite the way he pitched in Baltimore, I am heartened and believe that time will cure what needs to be cured.
With the way Hughes, Mussina, and Kennedy are pitching he serves no value standing around in the bullpen talking with Rivera during a 7 run blowout in the 3rd inning.
And the whole plan of stretching out his innings in July is foolish anyways. He spends the spring working as a starter, gaining endurance. Then they make him a reliever. Come July, he has to stretch out his innings again and gain endurance. You want to talk about a recipe for injury….
I completely agree Pete!
The one knock against Yankee fans is that we panic WAYYYY to quickly. We’re 10-10, that’s better than we were last year!
Once the weather warms up, the bats will liven up, and Phil and IPK will get better with each start.
Hank the Tank needs to relax. He’s acting way too much like his dad!
Was Hank watching when Stanton and Gordon were setting up for Mo during the WS years? What does he not understand? With Joba setting up the game is 7 innings long.
Why does Michael Kay care what the Orioles think of Hughes? He used that as an indication of what they’re saying “around baseball”.
Betsy, smells like Michael Kay is trying to get a ’scoop’ his competitors on WFAN dont have.
i wouldnt get too worked up over it…
“I had no say in it last year and I wouldn’t have allowed it. That was done last year, so now we have to catch up. It has to be done on a schedule so we don’t rush him.”
At least he seems to be being reasonable about it.
Of course the cool plan to have Joba eventually become the next Mo goes down the tubes, at least for now.
Betsy, you can’t always go by what another team says. They may just be trying to get in the kids head.
I remember the Indians talking about how unimpressed they were with El Duque the first he faced him.
Hank certainly is amusing, isn’t he?
FWIW, Hank has already backed off the statements that he made to the NY Times.
What can I say other than that I agree with Pete? Hank is trying to chase Cash out and I don’t think there is any prayer that he stays; why on earth would Cash want to work for someone who publicly insults him and his players? It’s sickening.
Re the Phil Hughes point I brought up: despite the guns reading 92-93, the O’s said Phil was throwing 90-91. That means that his FB did not have any life to it whatsoever…wow. Now, Michael Kay does not particularly like Phil, so if any O’s had said good things about him, I doubt he’d mention it. Boy, how Hughes has fallen, huh?
man Mike and Maddog’s fans are here
Turn Two
He said he was misunderstood not misquoted. If someone brought that up, this would be a lesser story and on a Yankee off day, the media needs to feed the fire rather than put it out.
Hughes and Kennedy will turn it around, no worries
As someone posted in the previous thread, there isn’t a rift between ownership and management regarding Joba:
http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2008/04/hank_on_joba_ian_and_phil.html
I think by “now” Hank is just saying he wants it set in motion. He knows it can’t possibly happen right now, but the ball still needs to get rolling, meaning Joba still needs to begin some type of preparation. Also, you never know what happens behind the scenes, maybe Joba went to Hank and expressed his concern that he thought he was going to be stuck in that role, and maybe Hank is standing up for him upon Joba’s request. It’s just a theory. I mean he did say “and so does everyone else, including him”… Including him… Where did he get that from? Joba has never said that publicly. I’d think there’s some communication going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about.
Sometime during a rain delay, we should live blog the White Shadow. I can see the comments now.
“Awesome dish by Thorpe.”
“Nice box out by Coolidge.”
“Salami is such a grease ball.”
“Nice toupee, Reeves.”
pat: yeah, 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, but yeah, its all the same. the media thinks they smell blood in the yankee waters, and need to pounce.
Hank said it, Hank meant it.
This is just damage control. Cashman’s had to make a statement. Hank’s had to “clarify”. As Olney said, “brushfires to be put out”.
“I’d think there’s some communication going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about.”
It’s almost as though they DO know what they’re doing, and don’t feel the need to make the entire world privy to every detail of the organization’s plans!
INSANE!!!
“Wow, Michael Kay just said the Orioles ripped on Hughes – that he has a straight 90-91 MPH FB and his out pitch is a curve. He also said that the O’s think that Phil is at best a #4 starter and that Ian, while no great shakes,”
The orioles have some of the worst talent evaluators in all of baseball.
That organization is in an absolute shambles. They have a terrible farm system and minimal major league talent.
Perhaps McPhail is starting to turn them around but that is not an organization that I’d put much stock in terms of what they’ve seen.
The Yankee baseball people think that Hughes and Kennedy will be very good major league pitchers.
Look at how the Yankees have drafted and evaluated young pitching over the past 4 years.
I’d go with their talent evaluation much sooner than I would the orioles.
Where is the greatness with Daniel Cabrera? Why cause he throws 96 but he doesn’t know where it’s going.
I wouldn’t listen to the O’s not exactly a well run organization.
“Boy, how Hughes has fallen, huh?”
Only in the eyes of people who think that four major league starts define a young pitcher.
Hank is definitely jumping the gun, but that might be his genes talking.
Running Joba out there too early would risk injury and the future. Just look at how Santana was brought into the majors and how he rarely gets injured.
Give Hughes and Kennedy sometime, especially Hughes. He’s only 21 and would benefit from some confidence from the higher ups. Hate to say it but…players play, coaches coach…How many teams would hire the Steinnbrenners to be their gm’s?
Is there any way Joba can build arm strength by simply adding innings to his relief stints? Wouldn’t the Yanks be better served that way rather than lose him down in the minors for a 2 to 3 start prep period? He’s already hurling two innings now, what’s the harm in adding another inning each week until he gradually builds to five. Bring him in the sixth and gradually build him up that way.
I wish we had some sane sports radio talking heads in NYC..
@ Mike Parch
While what you say is the truth, a 7 inning game means nothing if you’re not winning the game by then. If your starting pitching has you in a 5-7 run deficit by the first 3 innings, and your offense isn’t producing, it doesn’t matter who comes in the later innings.
Didn’t Hank say around December to be patient with the kids?
I mean…it’s not like he lost the stuff that enabled him to throw 6+ innings of no-hit ball last year. It’s not like he lost the stuff that enabled him to bag our only post-season win last year. He’s just not doing well right now. Maybe there’s something that’s affecting the velocity and/or movement of his FB. Maybe he’s just not trusting his stuff and trying to nibble all the time. I dunno. But I sure know that Michael Kay has no more qualifications to talk specifics about it than I do. There’s a reason that objective observers rated him highly as a prospect last year. It’s not like Baseball America gets influenced by some mythical Yankee prospect-hype machine.
“Why does Michael Kay care what the Orioles think of Hughes? He used that as an indication of what they’re saying “around baseball”.”
Wouldn’t be shocked if the O’s thoughts are shared by players in Kansas City and Boston too.
In fairness to Hughes the expectations were far too high. He’s going to be a very good pitcher, but he’s not so special that he’s going to come up and dominate at 21-22 years old. Nobody is.
My own personal opinion of Michael Kay is not very high. I have watched many, many of his broadcast and sometimes listen to ESPN Radio, and I’ll make this clear, he has no credibility about anything he says related to baseball. He’s a sensationalist, and a traditionalist who cares very little about what scouts and baseball people say. He probably got his info from Aubrey Huff. Furthermore, who cares what the Orioles people are saying about Hughes? They got by just fine on a lefty with virtually the same exact stuff as Hughes for a few years, the guy that is “Cy Young caliber” that just got traded to Seattle. What was his name? Oh yeah, Eric Bedard. What does he throw again, low-90s heat with a silly curve? Sounds awfully familiar. I wouldn’t worry about Phil or Ian. I also wouldn’t worry about Hank, because I imagine some journalist called him very early in the morning, saying there were rumors that Joba would never make it as a starter. I go to school with a lot of sports journalists, they have a lot of strategies about how to get quotes and turn them controversial. He’s just as new at this game as all his young starters, we should give him a little time to learn when he should respond, and when he should just hang up the phone.
Michael Kay is the most amazing drama queen I’ve ever come across, plus he makes chicken little look brave when it comes to Yankee matters. Frankly I pay little to no attention to anything he says.
We probably need to get used to Hank being George Jr. Hal and Cashman were already able to moderate him when the decision was made not to give up the farm for Santana. I cannot imagine that the same won’t happen with other things. Cash has worked for the Steinbrenners for a very long time and made the decision to re-up despite that. I think it means he is used to them and knows how to deal with them. Plus he was given the guarantee that he would be GM in more than “name only”. I think with Hal’s help Cash will be able to deal with this stuff.
whozat,
Phil’s complete rubbish. He pitched well last year, but that was last year. That doesn’t mean anything. He’s completely forgotten how to pitch, and needs to go the way of Clippard & DeSalvo.
we deal with enough criticism, micro-managing and crap from the fans and the media. the yankees actually have a game where they pitch well and hit at the same time, and Hank comes out spewing this garbage? Thank god he wasn’t in more control last year.
Some people seem to like how outspoken he is. It pisses me off. In the last few years with George toning it down and Cashman really stepping up as the one who calls the shots, i was really liking what the management of the team was becoming. Enter Hank, and it’s back to the old ways. Some loud mouthed jackass who makes knee-jerk decisions based on what’s in the media, and speaks regarding the team without a shred of professionalism. he’s a total ass. i pray to god that he never has enough of an impact on Cashman to persuade him to make idiotic decisions. I hate the way Hank talks. He’s an embarassment, he’s does nothing but give the media a great story about how much of a total ass bag he is.
I wonder why Hal didn’t get those genes?
By all accounts, he seems so much more reasonable and pragmatic.
While you have to imagine that Hank’s recent comments put unnecessary pressure on both Brian Cashman and manager Joe Girardi, the more troublesome aspect is the increased stress and anxiety you have to imagine that it will cause the other young pitchers to feel. The bottom line is we would not be having this “Release Joba from the ‘pen” conversation (in April) if the starters were pitching succesfully; mainly the young guys Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. Comments like these have to rile up the two young starters that feel they are letting their teammates down, especially Joba, who they both have a strong friendship with.
I like Hank just for the pure entertainment value.
I LOVE the Bronx Zoo, they have the greatest attractions I have ever seen.
“Didn’t Hank say around December to be patient with the kids?”
Yes.
And this is what Hank said today regarding patience:
“It’s still a learning curve there. What they can’t do is start to feel pressure. It’s not necessary. They’re dealing with an organization now that’s going to be extremely patient with them, because we know their talent, we know what they can do. It’s just a matter of time.”
Not all that different is it?
http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2008/04/hank_on_joba_ian_and_phil.html
Ya know, sometimes the Steinbrenners can make it embaressing to be a Yankee fan
“Is there any way Joba can build arm strength by simply adding innings to his relief stints?”
Of course. He could just throw progressively longer relief stints, with longer rest in between. It’s pretty easy. Bring him on in the 7th and let him finish the game, throwing 50 pitches. Then bring him in in the 6th on a day Moose pitches and have him throw 65 pitches. Then start him with a 75-pitch limit. Then start him with a 90 pitch limit. Then set him loose. I feel like the organization has thought about this more than anyone, and they’ve probably figured out a good plan.
Way to go Pete, stretching Hank’s words and making a bigger deal out of it than it already is.
Please show me the quote where Hank says that Joba needs to be in the rotation “right now.”
I have seen “we need him there now” (nobody in their right mind would contest that statement) and “now we have to catch up. It has to be done on a schedule so we don’t rush him.” (basically the opposite of “he needs to be there right now.”
I’m really getting more and more put off by this blog by the day.
oh in addition to my previous post: just for the record i am totally on board for Joba being in the rotation as soon as possible. possible being the operative word. i don’t want him to be in the rotation next week, i want him to be in the rotation at such a time where he will project to remain under his innings limit and have some juice left over for October.
Look at what Sweeny Murti of WFAN has to say about Phil and Ian…
“It’s easy to forget now about what the finished product looks like, but take a look back at Andy Pettitte’s rookie year of 1995. He got his first start on May 27th and he lost 6 of his first 9, getting run out in the 3rd inning against Texas on July 7th (a 10-0 loss). But Pettitte got better.
The Yankees went unbeaten in his next 5 starts with Pettitte pitching to a 2.02 ERA. He struggled some more after that. In back to back starts in late August, Pettitte lasted a total of 3.1 innings and gave up a total of 13 hits and 12 runs. Pettitte was 6-8 and the Yankees were 4 ½ games out of the Wild Card spot.
Then Pettitte won 6 of his last 7 starts, finished 12-9 and helped pitch the Yankees into the playoffs, his final victory coming on a Friday night in Toronto on the final weekend of the regular season.
That was the first run of pressure pitching Yankee fans had witnessed by Andy Pettitte, the kind we’ve all seen so much of since then and now almost take for granted.”
Way to go Hank! I was getting worried that you were going to be…like, you know…sane and all of that, in comparison to your dad. Now that we have the blustering heir apparent installed at the helm of the Yankees ship, order is restored in the universe. I can relax now.
:/
Hughes and IPK will be fine, Joba will make a great starter when he’s ready. Hank, just keep writing the checks, shut your piehole about who ought to be starting when, and let the baseball people do their jobs.
“Ya know, sometimes the Steinbrenners can make it embaressing to be a Yankee fan”
It’s funny to read this immediately after the extremely reasonable Hank-Quote that CB just posted.
Kay is suggesting Horne if he wasn’t hurt and Marquez if he was pitching well. Aren’t they young pitchers too that are going to struggle in the majors?
Why would you replace Marquez with Hughes? As if Marquez is going to dominate right away and not struggle.
What is wrong with sports radio?
“What does he not understand? With Joba setting up the game is 7 innings long.”
and if he becomes the type of starter that people think he will, the game is TWO innings long.
i am always amazed how backwards the logic is on this topic.
Pete,
The Yankees should have done business they way they always have, and last year while the two so-called superstar rookies Kennedy and Hughes value was high they should have moved them. Reason being that the Yankees being the Yankees cannot let these guys develop while trying to win a world series. Other teams can have a rebuild year but the Yanks cant. The Yankees I think were pressured to hold onto those guys and the yankees may have been tired of hearing how they always trade away young talent for older players. Well, they do, and its worked for the most part. Now they sit, and while Hughes is getting banged around by some average team Santana is striking out 10 Phillies. They messed this up, and now they got to sit with it. I think Mussina and Kennedy will not win an in division game this season. All three will have double digit losses. Go back to what they used to do, trade unproven over rated potential players for established players that have proven they can get the job done. Yanks were criticized in the past for trading young pitchers, where are they? Only Lilly? and he is mediocre, or Westbrook?
Rebecca, actually I enjoy Hank too.
I think we have a Mel imposters.
Jax:
Horne is 4 years older than Hughes, but more importantly hasn’t pitched since suffering an arm injury (supposedly not too serious) 10 or so days ago. Marquez has been getting crucified at AAA. He’s not the answer.
jyates29
“a lefty with virtually the same exact stuff as Hughes for a few years, the guy that is “Cy Young caliber” that just got traded to Seattle. What was his name? Oh yeah, Eric Bedard.”
You can’t compare a lefty to a righty. 90 mph for a lefty is like 95mph for a righty. you would know that if you knew anything about baseball.
Sweeney Murti is way too logical and sane to work as a sports journalist in NY.
Oh my… You mean we wont have the GM to hand out 46 million to a guy like Kei Igawa? A GM who hasn’t been able to put together a decent bullpen for 7 years (2000-2007)… A GM who allowed our farm to collapse and produce nothing for year (until recently)… A GM who asked Girardi to take Betemit over Gonzalez? You mean the GM who turned down getting David Ortiz and failed to talk the BOSS in to signing Vlad the Impaler?
look… CASH$ has made some nice trades… I thank him for finally getting our farm system corrected. BUT… he has made plenty of mistakes… Signing LAtroy Hawkins, having Joba stay in the pen, keeping Betemit on the team are just the latest. He’s never built anything here in NY so if he leaves… OH WELL… Life goes on!
whozat
no one is saying Hank is incapable of making a reasonable statement, however that doesn’t change the fact that he spews a lot of babbling, idiotic garbage. it IS embarassing.
That Sweeny Murti quote about Pettite struggling early on in his rookie year really says it all.
All of this talk has less to do with them and much more to do with the impatience in new york.
Kennedy threw 3 games in the middle of a pennant run for this team and put in 19 great innings - 1.89 ERA.
That pitcher hasn’t just disappeared.
And while I’d much prefer Hank not say anything this is in no way a return to the “way things used to be” under George.
The baseball people are making the decisions. Even in that NY Times piece I never took Hank to be saying “now” literally.
Saying anything was going to get spun into a controversy. But the substance of what he was saying (outside of the remark about using joba in relief last year being a mistake) was largely on the mark.
It’s what the baseball people have been saying all along.
“I like Hank just for the pure entertainment value.”
Same here - forget “The Joe Girardi Show” - I want the “Hank Steinbrenner Show”!!
Michael Kay: “Well Mr Steinbrenner - first let me say I’m a big admirer of you and your family. What do you think were this weeks highlights for the Yankees?”
Hank: “Michael - you’re a moron. In fact - you’re fired - I’m going to interview myself. Get lost punk.”
A” GM who asked Girardi to take Betemit over Gonzalez? ”
holy crap is this stupid.
Wait till at least Memorial Day before calling Hawkins a bust, would yah?
It’s only going to get better! Steve Philips is going to be on with Kay to give us his incite on Yankeeland.
“It’s easy to forget now about what the finished product looks like, but take a look back at Andy Pettitte’s rookie year of 1995. He got his first start on May 27th and he lost 6 of his first 9, getting run out in the 3rd inning against Texas on July 7th (a 10-0 loss). But Pettitte got better.”
Luckily Pettitte didn’t have to deal with all of the media/blogs etc. that are available today.
What’s become obvious over the past year is that while Hank Steinbrenner has become the public face of the ownership group, Hal Steinbrenner and Brain Cashman are the decision makers. To whit, Hank has publically declared that A-Rod was not welcome back as a Yankee, that the Yankees would be willing to give up Hughes for Johan Santana, and now that Joba should be a starter. I strongly suspect that while Hank likes to get his name in the papers, he has very little say over the baseball decisions made by the team. Thus, I wouldn’t worry about Cashman bolting just yet - he and “Silent Hal” appear to be very much on the same page regarding fiscal constraint, player development, and baseball decision-making.
Not sure you brought up Liriano. The Twins have been on the top teams at monitering young players away from injuries.
Liriano 2003-122 Innings pitched
Liriano 2004-160 Innings pitched
Liriano 2005-180 Innings pitched
Liriano 2006-121 Innings pitched
The Twins were very careful with Liriano, gets guy hurt sometimes.
If Cash decides to leave the Yankees, a lot more will go into it than Hank’s comments to the media.
If I was in his Cash’s seat, would I be rankled today? Yes and no.
Yes in the sense that the obvious (Joba in the rotation) doesn’t need to be said publicly. Its a needless brush fire on an off day.
No because he didn’t come out and rip him over some unexplainable moves.
Such as not having a first baseman on the roster. That’s a pretty big “miss” if you ask me.
Its nice theatre for an off day but that’s about it.
Bronx Zoo? In those days, there was actual hatred between the players, owner, GM and manager.
I’m not sensing there is hate going on inside the walls at Yankee Stadium. Disgreement? Perhaps. Bronx Zoo? A little over the top, IMO.
What’s funny is nobody in the media seems to want to run with Hank’s quotes today in the Ed Price blog entry.
They would seem to contradict the fact he is some raving lunatic.
Hank is Hank. I tend to focus on the actions and not on the words. When the actions become negative toward the ballclub, then its time for worry. We have seen no evidence of that yet.
One other thing on Cash’s future. Cash’s future, as with all GM’s, depend on how his team is viewed by ownership.
If the team is viewed by ownership as on the upswing, then Cash is fine. If ownership feels the team is going in the wrong direction, he has problems.
If he is burned out by the Yankees and wants new challenges, he will be free to pursue it.
Its not an easy job. It can go either way.
Betsy,
My suggestion to Yankee players if they are evaluating Phil Hughes after 4 starts would be to look in the mirror.
They should just worry about themselves.
There are quite a few players on the roster today who would have a hard time convincing people they are playing good baseball.
Its probably among that group the grumbling about Hughes is happening.
Nothing like deflecting attention away from yourself by criticizing a rookie.
“I think Mussina and Kennedy will not win an in division game this season.”
IIRC Kennedy and Mussina both pitched extremely well and were set up to win games against Tampa Bay.
Yes, lets have the Yankee clubhouse make personnel decisions. You wind up with Kazmir for Zambrano type trades. The same vets want Joba to stay in the bullpen. The aging vets want to win now and will throw the rooks under the bus to do it. It is Cashman’s job to keep the inmates in line.
Hank knows as much as many posters ZILCH..
Hughes will be a horse, mark it down……..
Here’s what I don’t get about Kay. Where was this the Orioles don’t think much of Phil Hughes the whole weekend. If I recall correctly, all I remember was Kay and Singleton saying Hughes and Kennedy should look at what Pettitte is doing, and follow through, especially since they have better stuff than Andy at this point of all of their respective careers. So, during yesterday’s game, Hughes has better stuff than Andy, but today, the O’s don’t think much of Hughes, so, he’s not that special. Somebody call Kay and ask him which one it is?
“IIRC Kennedy and Mussina both pitched extremely well and were set up to win games against Tampa Bay.”
Moose DID win against TB.
“BUT… he has made plenty of mistakes… ”
Cashman is considered to be one of the best GM’s in baseball but let’s forget that.
Let’s look at what his peers have done.
Theo Epstein - trade for Eric Gagne, signing JD Drew, signing Julio Lugo, letting Orlando Cabrera go, Drafting Dan Bard instead of Joba, signing Coco Crisp.
Theo Epstein put Manny Ramirez through waivers hoping he could dump him on another team.
Dave Dombrowski - traded good minor league pitching for older veterans like Gary Sheffield and Edgar Renteria and now a $120M team is flailing because it has not pitching.
Do you think the tigers would rather have Edgar Renteria or Jair Jurggens?
You can always cherry pick GM moves. It’s just pointless. Look at their overall bodies of work and Cashman, Epstein and Dombrowski are all terrific GM’s.
These latest comments by Hank only leave me shaking my head..
I hope, at somepoint he calms down and stops letting the reporters get him all emotional.. He’s hurting the team with his words.
Sigh.
trisha,
That’s me. Dripping with sarcasm.
Before we worry about postseason games remember that we have three pitchers in the rotation right now who have been in postseasons. I haven’t given up on Moose just yet. If we can piece together outings if necessary from our two other starters who should certainly have a lot more innings and experience under their belts by then and get some help from the bullpen - another thing I’m not worried about, the postseason will take care of itself.
You do not need five starters in the postseason.
Hank’s not embarrassing Brian. NY media getting desperate for a story on a slow news day is embarrasing.
I don’t think what Hank said is any big deal. In any event, it’s his (and Hal’s) team, and he can say what he wants.
As has been amply documented by other posters (mainly SJ), everyone in the organization is on board with Joba being a starter at the right time. The “idiots” that Hank was referring to are those in the media who want him to remain a set-up guy.
I don’t worry about Hughes, I worry about what Hank and a certain portion of the fans are going to do to him mentally. Geez, the kid is 21, has struggled out of the gate, and the sharks are already circling. I’d would like to see those of you ready to write him off provide me with a list of great pitchers who just came to the major league level and dominated. Take your time, I’ll be here whenever you get done putting the list together.
Sometimes it really is embarrasing to be a fan of this team when stuff like this goes on. It makes Yankee fans in general look like they don’t have a clue about baseball.
sports talk radio guys have to come on every day and give people something to talk about, even when there’s nothing to talk about. they have to provocative in order to get phone calls.
i’m listening to Kay right now as well. i’m as big a Hughes supporter as anyone. i even felt bad and sent a supportive the gmail address on his weblog after his last start. i don’t think Kay’s saying anything too outlandish. i think he’s simply trying to get phone calls.
it’s like having to fill 24/7 of news in this era. there’s nothing to talk about half the time, so people stretch in order to be provocative. none of it, however, should ever be confused for the actual truth.
Jim Palmer on TV said on a number of occasions that he was impressed by Hughes and his stuff.
Palmer’s conclusion on Phil’s outing - he’s much better than what his numbers showed. That’s he’s a young pitcher learning.
Jim Palmer said that. I think I’ll take Jim Palmer’s opinion over melvin mora’s or aubrey huff’s.
I sure hope that Hal is able to talk some sense into him. He definitely seems to be the more rational of the two.
oh goody Steve Philips
“The starting rotation is not what I would have chosen at the beginning of the year, but that is not a big news flash to anyone,” Steinbrenner said.
no kidding. Who wanted this rotation? If anyone thought that Hughes and Kennedy would be this disgraceful, there would be no complaints about getting santana.
Funny thing is, everyone got so caught up in Santana and trades that they couldn’t even see that we needed pitching just as desperately this year as we did last year.
Shame on all the Yankee fans… and shame on Cashman with his 41 million dollor Kei Igawa.. Cashman can follow Torre for all I care.
side note: Does anyone else look at Joba’s era (1.42) and think to themselves “damn that’s high” just because it’s Joba? lol.
Get your radio’s ready, Yankee lover Steve Phillips is joining the Michael Kay show soon. Let’s see, we know he’ll rip the Yankees ownership, their play on the field, and their chances of making the playoffs. He will probably also echo Yankee haters such as Mike and the Mad Dog and say that Joba should stay as set up man for the next 3 years and then close. Listen close and you may get to hear a Met insult or two.
“Shame on all the Yankee fans… ”
this doesn’t even make sense.
shame on the fans?
This is all a very entertaining diversion on an off day.
Nothing really has changed though.
What I really want to know is HOW IS A-ROD’S LEG? - WHEN WILL JORGE BE BEHIND THE PLATE???????????
Steve Phillips “Hank Steinbrenner is a loose cannon”
I don’t believe Kay totally with what he’s saying about supposedly what the O’s where saying. Jim Palmer complimented Hughes. So I don’t know where this negative reaction on what Hughes is is coming from.
What veterans on this team wondering about Hughes and Kennedy?
I would really like to know who these veterans are.
Damon? Giambi? who?
I don’t want a Dodger clubhouse situation with the Yankees.
Brandon,
Funny story about Steve Phillips.
He was talking about one of the young pitchers struggling the other night. Talking about how guy most likely to move young prospects for vets is a GM in his last year. How he was in New York and could have traded Jose Reyes. But he didn’t because it wasn’t in the best interest of the team. And if you do that kind of stuff you won’t work in the game again.
So, I’m laughing because Steve Phillips, as far as I know, never worked in the game again.
Then he said that the Yankees should stay the course.
If I thought Kennedy and Hughes would be pitching like this right now I STILL would have wanted them over Santana because Melky was part of the deal and because I figured that they would get the help they needed from the offense. Hughes has gotten better each outing. Ian already gave us one outstanding outing, which means he has it in him.
Girardi just did the best thing he could have done and that is to separate them with another pitcher.
Life is good and getting better.
“no kidding. Who wanted this rotation? If anyone thought that Hughes and Kennedy would be this disgraceful, there would be no complaints about getting santana.”
it’s been FOUR starts.
FOUR.
we are talking about a trade that will take about 3-4 years to evaluate if it was the right move or not and you are here on April 21 writing the book.
also, the “throw in” to the trade, Melky Cabrera, is hitting .281/.358/.456. too early to know if he’ll keep that up, but if he does, he’s an All-Star CFer.
Why on earth would anyone choose to spend even 5 seconds listening to Steve Phillips?
Life is so much more enjoyable when you don’t waste your time listening to what fools say.
Ok Steve Phillips, Set up does not = closer. “But the Yankees best interest is for Joba to stay in the bullpen.” Surprise, surprise.
Brian,
I didn’t watch the game yesterday so I was sad (mad) to hear that the bullpen allowed a inherited runner from Joba to score after the rain delay.
Or how about, when can we see Shelley again?
Let’s see…..
Jim Palmer. Not only a Hall of Fame pitcher, but an absolute genius when it comes to pitching and pitching evaluations. The guy really knows pitching.
Mike Francesa, Chris Russo, Michael Kay. Three guys hosting radio talk shows. I’m sure they are nice guys but, nobody is confusing them with baseball intellect.
Who am I going to believe when I hear comments about Phil Hughes, Palmer or 3 radio talk show hosts?
Call me crazy but, I’ll choose Palmer.
Steve Phillips “We don’t know if Joba will be good in the rotation”.
Bottom line is all Yankee haters want Joba to stay in the bullpen. Real fans do not want to waste a great starter for 3 years in the pen.
trisha, man please .. melky is never going to be anything more than an average hitter and an average CF with a better than average arm. your girl crush on him does not win baseball games.
This team did absolutely nothing to better itself in the offseason, other than re-sign veterans that they already had.
We are lucky that we got Arod back. Very lucky.
The Yankee team is a second away from being the Bad News Bears. Sure looks like it to me.
Whatever, not Attacke me again because I differ with all of you because your super duper optimisin has got us where? Right here where we are with a lame team that can’t hit or pitch.
Steve Phillips also ripped the Yankees for not trading Melky for Eric Gagne last year.
he is an idiot. plain and simple.
then again, half the posters here did the same thing.
Melky is not an offensive threat. Do you not read scouting reports if you do…
“Melky Cabrera: He hacks at everything, very impatient and likely to swing at pitches outside the strike zone, can’t handle off-speed stuff at all”
whatever.. you all are so smart, you all wanted the team we have now, and they stink. Plain and simple.
So let’ see Steve Phillips, the Yankees should have got Santana and not let Ian Kennedy hold up the deal. So it would have been Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera for Santana. So Kennedy isn’t good enough to hold up the deal, but he is so good, that he blocks Joba from ever entering the rotation. It’s almost like Phillips, M&MD and other Yankee haters are going off the anti-Yankee script they handed out in their meeting.
I’m sure that one of Hank’s goals was achieved.
His Yankees are featured on the front page of espn.com even though the Sox swept Texas.
The side-by-side photos of Hank & Joba are scary. They got the one picture in the world where Joba’s got a scowl, and he looks like he could be Hank’s son.
Yawn. Steve Phillips criticizing the Yankees.
Never heard that before from him.
You can just take a tape from all of his interviews and they all sound the same.
Funny thing is, if Cashman isn’t back next year, Phillips agent would be calling Hank Steinbrenner before Cashman’s stuff is even out the door.
Nobody in the media is a bigger fraud or phony than Steve Phillips.
in all honesty, the shambles this team is in falls on cashman’s head. i think he went into this too full guns blazing on the kids. he never resolved the outfield logjam nor did he consider 1b enough.
if cashman has a reason to be annoyed, it’s only because he is failing at his job in some aspects. while no one can doubt his success in drafting great players the last few years, there are too many failures associated with this team since 2003 that make you have a very sour taste in your mouth.
if cashman wants to leave, he leaves the best job he will ever have. the organization gives him unlimited resources to provide the best possible product. while some decisions were not solely made by him, those that have don’t really always pan out.
say hi to wilson betemit and his pink eye for me.
“whatever.. you all are so smart, you all wanted the team we have now, and they stink. Plain and simple.”
you are the very worst type of fan. plain and simple.
business is about to pick up.
Also these anti-Yankee idiots don’t want the Yankees to realize that Mike Mussina is pretty much useless. So whenever someone mentions Joba in the rotation, they say, oh you’re giving up on Hughes and Kennedy, uh no, we’re displacing Moose.
At what point does Steve Phillips blame the Joba situation on A-Rod? (who he thinks will never survive last year in NYC)
“say hi to wilson betemit and his pink eye for me.”
i don’t get it, are you blaming Cashman for the pink eye?
Scott Proctor - 8 IP, 8 ER, 9 H, 3 HR, 4 BB, 9.00 ERA
Pete, anyone that ever thought you were a “homer” when it came to the Yankees has been put in his place. You’ll be lucky if Hal himself doesn’t read this blog, drive over to your house and give you a nice slap ! ( total joke, Pete….you are the best, friend ! )
I think we should just cancel the rest of the season. It’s April 21st and we’re 10-10. Why bother, it’s over.
Do some of you people get any enjoyment out of watching how the LONG baseball season plays out? Do you have no memories of players having great Aprils only to flatline the rest of the season? How many times do you hear, “so and so looked dead in April and then really went on a tear?” How many teams have looked like they couldn’t be beat in April only to spend the rest of the season circling the drain?
The Yanks may not make the playoffs this year, deal with it. But at this point none of us know how the 90% of the season remaining is gonna play out. I swear it’s like some of you have been follwing baseball for 10 minutes.
It is not surprising that people’s opinion of Phil Hughes has changed over the course of the last few months. Watching him closely, it is sometimes hard to see what all the fuss was about. Leave aside his horrendous stats at the major league level (17 starts, 5+ ERA). Even his minor league career does not provide overwhelming evidence that Hughes will be an excellent major league pitcher. The bulk of his work was done at Double A Trenton, where he pitched very well against Double A batters while being held to a strict pitch count that prevented him from having to face hitters deep into games. Beyond Double A, Hughes made only something like 5 starts at Triple A before being called to the big leagues. That’s it.
Yes, Hughes has a good fastball and an above-average curve. But so do lots of young pitchers who make it to the big leagues and then prove to be mediocre at best.
im not saying you had to keep scott proctor.
what i am saying is, he traded for a player who has not really helped this team.
Yanks and Mets both in Chicago at the same time. That’s not likely to happen too often.
With the off night, wonder if any of the Yanks will take in the Wrigley experience.
If the Steinbrenners were the Corleone family…
George=Vito
Hank=Sonny
Hal=Michael
Cashman=Tom Hagen
Jennifer Love Hewitt=Lucy Mancini
Fleas,
Here is why nobody takes you seriously here:
“Melky is never going to anything more than an average hitter and an average CF with an above average arm”.
That simply isn’t true. Do you even watch the games?
Don’t read a 2 year old scouting report. Watch the games.
He is playing well above average for a CF right now. Really, look at the games. He’s playing at an all star level right now.
“The Yankee team is a second from being the Bad News Bears”.
Really? Even though they have a better record this year after 20 games than last year.
The Bad News Bears? Really.
If you really believe that, and am not just posting some hysterics to draw attention to yourself, then I feel sorry for you.
You are showing everybody in here just how lacking you are in baseball knowledge and why everybody in here takes what you have to say about the Yankees with a grain of salt.
“what i am saying is, he traded for a player who has not really helped this team.”
right, and he has had an eye problem which might explain why he has struck out every time up.
hopefully it clears up and he hits to his career averages.
because if he does that while backing up all 4 infield postions, he WILL help the team.
hmmm
On the internet everyone knows who you are.
Keep that in mind.
(that is not a threat, that is to say you just never know who you are talking to)
But I too agree, you are absolutely the most futile fan, one who wants what he wants and then when he gets it and it does not pan out, he complains to the almighty and will never admit that he was wrong initially.
Most of the people on this blog are like that. No problem. I won’t lose sleep I assure you.
$$
“Even his minor league career does not provide overwhelming evidence that Hughes will be an excellent major league pitcher.”
wow.
You all think it’s to early for a Hank Steinbrenner Life size Poster Night?
Jason–
you forgot that idiot Swindal as Fredo?
“On the internet everyone knows who you are.
Keep that in mind.”
i have no idea what you are talking about.
It wouldn’t be the worse thing if Cashman is gone. He’s overrated and has yet to find a good pitcher.
SJ44:
Oh thanks for clearing that up.
You are the same person that says not to fault hughes/kennedy cause it’s early… but you are saying melky is going to put up the same numbers all season. You are my polar opposite and not even a very smart one.
I really don’t miss a game mind you. In fact I have only missed one all season so far. You quite obvious are Mr. Baseball.
Yes Bad New Bears, if you think that they have a better record this year than last years horrible starts means anything, you are really a clown.
I don’t care if no one takes me serious. Trust me. I truly don’t.
Trisha,
Excellent point. I wanted Santana badly, but this is all about numbers. Fleas is right in that we needed more pitching this year. The Yankees FO seemed to think they just needed Pettitte or Santana, which I thought was flawed logic. Still, if the Yanks traded Hughes and Kennedy for Santana, and signed Pettitte, the rotation would be Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Moose and Igawa/Rasner/Chamberlain at the back end. The outfield would be Damon in Center, Matsui in Left, Abreu in Right with Duncan or maybe Gardner as back up outfielders. The Yankees depth would be severely weakened.
There was no way the Yankees could trade two MLB (or close to MLB) ready pitchers for Santana. It’s why I had advocated starting the deal with Cano and maybe Horne for Santana and going from there, but that obviously wasn’t a direction that worked. I’d have loved to have gotten Santana without giving up the big 3, as it would have let the Yankees break in Hughes this year, start Joba when Moose proved ineffective, and slot Kennedy in for next year, instead of relying on all veterans. I was hessitant to give up one of the big 3, there’s no way they could afford to give up 2.
What’s done is done. I still see potential in Hughes. He just needs time to adjust. I also think if Kennedy returns to his aggressive approach, he’ll be effective. It’s still so early in the season, and the kids are having growing pains.
As for the O’s and Yanks talking about Ian and Phil’s stuff? Right now, it’s better than Pettitte’s. And Pettitte still wins game after game. There’s more to being a great pitcher than just stuff, and once Ian and Phil make the adjustment, I see them being very good. Hughes especially, if he figures out how to be more aggressive and limit his pitch count can be a stud. We’ve seen the signs already.
How can anyone think this team is in shambles? Like any team there are ups and downs and we are in transition with younger pitchers but to think the Yankees are in shambles — you gotta be just plain nuts. They are break even but so are many other teams. We have proven performers who do and will perform. I do not understand how you can look at this team and be so negatory. Who would replace the players you do not approve of or like? For that matter Cashman haters who would you get to replace Cashman — YOU? If you do not get it and it sure looks like you do not get it, study the game. Get some knowledge before you spit out all your stupidity. Free speech has its limits when it comes to infecting the world with constant ridicule. You just will not make it.
Good Afternoon.
I posted this earlier today on another thread. Here is a website calling for the release of White Sox broadcaster Hawk Harrelson. I believe you will find this amusing if he pisses you off if you have to watch any of the series on a Chicago feed. Yes, he is worse than Joe Morgan.
www.heavethehawk.com
“Even his minor league career does not provide overwhelming evidence that Hughes will be an excellent major league pitcher. The bulk of his work was done at Double A Trenton, where he pitched very well against Double A batters”
I don’t even know where to begin with this statement and how wrong it is.
Phil Hughes had one of the most dominant minor league careers of any pitcher in recent baseball history.
He had a career ERA of 2.09, K/9 10.2; BB/9 of 2 and a WHIP of 0.86.
A WHIP of 0.86 is astonishing, doesn’t matter the level.
And to criticize his minor league career because he only pitched 5 games in AAA is to completely misunderstand minor league baseball and the nature of elite prospects.
Truly great prospects move through systems very, very fast. They are so good that they make it clear that they are too good for the minor leagues and need to be challenged and learn at the major league level.
That’s the category of prospect Hughes was in.
Joba pitched 8 innings of AAA ball. Is that a bad thing? No because it was so clear he was ready he could be promoted.
Alex Rodriguez had 88 at bats at AAA. How did that turn out.
If you want to criticize Phil for the handful of games he’s thrown in the majors fine. But his minor league performance is impeccable and everything he did suggests he’s going to be a very good major league pitcher.
K/9 10.2
Jason, lol, that’s a great comparison. Hal really does seem to fit the Michael role. Does that mean Hal will move the Yankees to Nevada though?
“If the Steinbrenners were the Corleone family…
George=Vito
Hank=Sonny
Hal=Michael
Cashman=Tom Hagen
Jennifer Love Hewitt=Lucy Mancini”
Just leave Joba in the pen this whole year.He is still 22 years old.And we don’t know if he can be a Ace.We do know he can be a great Set-Up Man.
Jeff you can’t possibly be serious. Mike Mussina. Case closed.
The best part of the quote is how “He wouldnt have allowed it last year”…Is he to stupid to realize Joba comming out of the pen was a major reason we even made the playoffs? I cant stand this guy he needs to shut his mouth and stick to horses
I agree with the previous statement. Also, here is a comment i posted on another blog. Basically, I’m just saying, “Shut up Hank and let people do their jobs cause they know what they’re talking about. You did a great job in selecting this year’s staff, let them do their thing”:
Okay I don’t even know where to begin with this one. Personally, I think Hank made himself sound pretty stupid. Let’s start with the Joba thing. I agree with the writer, had he not been the setup man last year, I don’t think they would have made it to the playoffs. If anyone recalls, some of the best Yankee years over the past 13 seasons have been the ones with solid bullpens. I remember in 1996 when Joe Torre asked starters (like Jimmy Key and Dwight Gooden, to name two guys who were not superstars but were solid pitchers) to throw 6 innings. It was all bullpen from there. Handing the ball to guys like Ramiro Mendoza, Graeme Lloyd, Mike Stanton for the middle innings, going to Mo for an inning or two then bringing in closer John Wetteland was the way to win games. A solid setup man is a MUST in order to go deep into the playoffs and I don’t think that anyone (even the almighty Hank) can argue with the fact that Joba has sure shown to be more than fit for this role. To move him out of it, and anyone else into it at this point would be a very questionable move. While in the quest for another solid starter, it’s important to not forget about the importance of a strong bullpen, and moving Joba is doing exactly that. As for the Mussina comments, why doesn’t Hank let his pitching coach tell his pitchers who to “pitch more like?” Come on Hank. This absurd owner involvement is just the thing that caused problems with Girrardi (manager of the year in his only season) in Florida. I have more than enough faith in Joe. Let him do his job! He knows these players (especially the youngsters) the most of anyone, and he knows the game. As a die hard fan, I appreciate Hank’s anger at the current record, but I also realize that it’s early. Give it until July until anyone has to press the panic button, or at least until June until we have to hear from the owner (who might I remind you is also in his rookie season). I also just want to say that I have not been the biggest Cashman fan over the years. I have personally blamed him for some of the early playoff exits in the past couple seasons. Right now, I could not be happier with him. I loved the decision to stick with Kennedy and Hughes rather than trade for Santana. I think that sticking with the youngsters was a great move. It may not look so hot right now, but I firmly believe that BOTH of them will be Cy Young candidates within the next couple of years, and will be considered solid starters by the middle to end of this season. Way to stick with the farm-grown talent and natural chemistry rather than trade for big names Brian. This move will pay off in time. I also like the way he is handling Hank. Let Joe do his job, and try to stay out of the way. Cashman is doing well. It’s early in the season. Once the bats heat up, the pitchers get into a grove, and everyone becomes comfortable this team will start winning. The only way for anyone to get into a groove is to leave everything the way it is for a little while. If things aren’t working in July that’s a different story. We’re in April. Leave things alone for a little while. Let Joe do his job and let the players start to feel everything out. Back off Hank because you might not know what you’re talking about right now.
Does anyone else have a red mark on their forehead? My god, yes we know joba is sucessful as a reliever, we know he has the potential to be sucessful as a starter. Guess what if he stinks as a starter, you can very easily slot him back to relieving.
“Just leave Joba in the pen this whole year.He is still 22 years old.And we don’t know if he can be a Ace.We do know he can be a great Set-Up Man.”
No
Fleas - you sound like an imbecile.
PECOTA’s top 6 comparables for Melky at his age:
“1 Carlos Beltran
2 Coco Crisp
3 Pete Rose
4 Brian McRae
5 Rick Manning
6 Nick Markakis”
Their quote on his 2007 season:
“Before the season, Baseball America listed Cabrera as a player for whom `time is running out for.` Little did the know that, by late May, `Got Melky?` T-shirts would be spotted around the Big Apple. The lesson, of course, is that when evaluating a player you should never end a sentence with a preposition. They actually weren`t that far off base; in his brief 2005 audition, Cabrera had seemed tentative and intimidated, swinging at everything at the plate and dropping flies in the outfield. After that, the only thing still in his favor was youth. Melky 2.0 had exactly one day like that–his first. Thereafter he was a defensive asset, displaying a cannon arm; at the plate he showed surprising patience and an ability to hit for average, if not for power. Still, he blew hot and cold, spoiling his numbers with an artic September. The overall package doesn`t quite add up to a starting corner outfielder–yet.”
“The best part of the quote is how “He wouldnt have allowed it last year”…Is he to stupid to realize Joba comming out of the pen was a major reason we even made the playoffs? I cant stand this guy he needs to shut his mouth and stick to horses”
and you slowed the progress of a SP that can shorten the game to 2 innings because of that move, all because we wanted to make the playoffs.
CB -
I actually agree with your thoughts in the last thread about Matsui’s defense. Before his knee went south, he wasn’t a bad fielder. He wasn’t Ichiro or Jim Edmonds, but he was a lot better than most people gave him credit for. And I think he can still be a lot better fielder than people are willing to give him credit for in the future.
I think I’ve been one of the few on the blog who actually thinks Matsui can get back to that if he can get his legs back to 100%. I suppose I should clarify my view that he’s good as a DH/backup OF by adding that he may not be back to 100% … yet. It might take half the year or it might not be until next year.
No doubt he wasn’t able to cut it when his knee was shot. You could see him struggling. Torn knee cartlidge can really take a lot out of your stride and I imagine playing ML outfield would be real tough chore. For me, just walking was tough. My own first hand experience is that if it’s a clean fix, you can get back to 100% but it’s not going to be an overnight thing. His knee joint is probably as good as new now. It’s the muscles and mobility that take time. He can run ‘pretty good’ now but as far as running full out it’s probably too soon feel as if there was never a problem.
So in the meantime I think you give Gardner a shot, and when Matsui feels the leg is back to 100% (when he actually sprints, not when he talks to the press about it between games) then Gardner becomes the 4th outfielder. If Gardner comes up and rightfully earns the LF spot outright like Melky did in CF, then Matsui replacing Giambi at DH is still a plus move too.
“Jason, lol, that’s a great comparison. Hal really does seem to fit the Michael role. Does that mean Hal will move the Yankees to Nevada though?”
Nevada=New Yankee Stadium
“He is still 22 years old.And we don’t know if he can be a Ace.We do know he can be a great Set-Up Man.”
In 1997 when John Wettland left did the yankees definitely know that Mariano could be the closer?
Absolutely not.
But did they absolutely, positively know that he, like Joba, could be an absolutely dominant set up man.
Absolutely. There was no doubt that Mo was a dominant set up man and no definite way to know that he could be a closer.
Same thing with Joba right now.
They moved Mo from a role they were sure he could do because closer was a more important role than set up man.
How did that work out?
Was it mistake to put Mo in a new role that you didn’t definitely know he could handle?
Stick = Tessio
Who is Clemenza?
And people Santana started out as a reliever. Should the Twins have left him there?
I was listening to the radio and they were talking about the worst sports trades ever. Wanted to get some of your opinions.
Delino Deshields for Pedro
Hershell Walker for 7 draft picks(i believe)
Ricky Ledee for David Justice
The trade that brought Santana to the Twins?
The Slocumb for Veritek and ?
Anyone?
You hit the nail on the head yet again Pete.
Hank is hurting his team more than he is helping it with all this non-sense.
I will say, however, that Mussina should take some lessons from Jamie Moyer. That line was classic.
Jennifer, don’t do that you’ll force some of the Joba to the BP people to actually use thier brain.
BP on Melky this year:
Cabrera’s season was shaped like a camel, low on both ends with a hump in the middle. In April and May, he batted .224/.28/.306 From June through August, he hit .325/.375/.82. That production, combined with Cabrera’s defense–which features just average range for a center fielder, but a terrific throwing arm–seemed to herald the arrival of a major new talent. Then came September. For the second year in a row, Cabrera’s bat went into hibernation on Labor Day. He hit .180/.236/.220 in the final month. The aggregate is still a bit soft for a starting center fielder, and while it’s apparent that Cabrera has the ability to be greater than that, whether he will find the consistency required is more a matter of faith than science.
I see you guys have been posting some questionable stuff here. I havnt seen hmmm this active all year.
i don’t get the angst about trying Joba in the rotation b/c of the uncertainty.
it’s not like he CAN’T be moved back to the bullpen if he fails. why does everyone always forget that?
SoS,
I thought Santana was a Rule V draft pick?
Clemenza = Zimmer
Moe Green = Theo Epstein
Barzini = Larry Luccino
This is fun!
“Stick = Tessio
Who is Clemenza?”
Nah. Torre is clearly Tessio. Stick is Clemenza, he’s been with “The Family” through it all.
Mo=Luca Brazi (only no one gets to Mo)
Joba=Al Neri
Bud Selig=Tattaglia
John Henry=Barzini
Worst sports trades ever.
Zambrano for Kazmir
How could you trade Jay Buhner?!!? (Ken Phelps)
Lilly for Weaver (always liked Lilly)
These are trades I hated AT THE TIME they occured.
What was so bad about Ledee for Justice? I like Ricky but he did not pan out for the most part- Justice helped us a lot
mel,
Your right. I think i meant to say Loriano.
“I havnt seen hmmm this active all year.”
yeah, i happen to have some time today.
that and i won’t come into the game threads anymore.
I’m not saying keep Joba in the set-up role for his career.But to find a guy to pitch dominate in the 7th and 8th is nearly impossible.We can hopefully find someone this or next year to be the heir to Mariano with Humberto Sanchez,J.B. Cox or Mark Melanchon.
But you don’t want Fransworth or LaTroy as your set-up man in the regular or post-season.THats why they shouldn’t move Joba to the rotation till they find a set-up man.This isn’t a rebuilding year we can’t afford to have three young staters work through there stuff.Keep Joba where he’s good at.In this day and age of 6th innings pitchers the bullpen is just as important as a stater.
Jimmy,
I meant we got the better end of that Ledee for Justice trade.
“I thought Santana was a Rule V draft pick?”
he was. but the Twins had a trade worked out with the Marlins before the draft. they had the Marlins select him and then traded him to Minnesota.
hmmm,
I think it just revolves around the long term plan. They had a plan going into the season that Cash wishes to stick with, probably because of injury-risk.
Hank has his panties in a knot because we’re 10-10. He is trying to force a panic move, the same panic move that he is whining about today regarding Joba last year.
If they want to bring up some starters from the minors and give IPK or Hughes or Moose a breather to fix whatever is off, then that is one thing, but with Joba, I believe Cashman’s strategy should remain in place.
Remember, one step back to take two steps forward. Patience is key.
Oh, gotcha SoS
Who did the red sox get for Bagwell?
SoS, the Red Sox got relief pitcher Larry Andersen.
Worst trades ever:
Pau Gasol for all those bums (primarily Kwame Brown)
“Who did the red sox get for Bagwell?”
just FYI, on BB-Ref.com, you can see all this info on a player’s page:
August 30, 1990: Traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Houston Astros for Larry Andersen.
SOS27.
The vaunted Mr. Larry Anderson…
Thanks for the memories.
-dennis
Ricky Williams for like 50 draft picks. O.k. more like 7.
The Mets-Royals trade that sent David Cone to NY for backup catcher Ed Hearn was pretty bad.
“Pau Gasol for all those bums (primarily Kwame Brown)”
That was more of a conspiracy.
Sweeny Murti at 5
Kwame Brown for Caron Butler
Thanks hmmm.
Dennis,
Sorry to bring it back. To be fair we did trade Mike Lowell away and someone mentioned the Jay Buhner one as well.
Since we’re talking bad trades, most trades by the Yankees in the 80’s. Willie McGee, Doug Drabek, Fred McGriff and Jose Rijo were all dealt for garbage.
Jake,
That was the best trade in history!
One of the worst recently….2006
Francisco Lariano and Joe Nathan for AJ Pierzynski
-dennis
““Pau Gasol for all those bums (primarily Kwame Brown)”
That was more of a conspiracy.”
EXACTLY! David Stern rigging the KG to Celtics, Gasol to Lakers trade to force the first Lakers-Celtics Finals in decades probably tops Secret Jordan Gambling suspension and the Ewing/Knicks Frozen Envelope among the great DS conspiracies of all time.
We have some updates and comments on our blog regarding the Hank-Joba sit-yee-ation:
http://johnsterling.blogspot.com
And Marc Gasol’s a stud.
How about this:
AJ Pierzynski for Joe Nathan and Liriano.
Granted, Liriano got hurt and may never get back to form, but AJ did jack in SF and Nathan is dominant.
Agreed, Pete.
Still, there’s a part of me that believes Cashman and Girardi actually provoke Hank and court his reckless comments with the secrecy that now informs both GM and Manager’s public stance.
On the
joe Girardi show, in response to a viewer’s question about Joba’s role, Girardi specifically refused to reveal both (i) what the Yankees’ plans were for Chamberlain’s role this year, whether as a starter or reliever, and (ii) how high they’ve capped his innings. He refused as though the revelation somehow would imperil the Yankees organization or mean the difference between whether or not they qualify for the playoffs. Please.
I suspect the conceit that Girardi and Cashman hold in their possession information as valuable and sensitive– as whether or not Saddam Hussein possessed WMDs– incited Hank to puncture the pretense.
Good for Hank. The pretentious, opaque secrecy– about everything from Joba’s role to A-Rod’s injury– in which Cashman and Girardi would enshroud team developments and decisions is starting to make them seem paranoid, if not outright ridiculous.
I’m glad Hank shone a little light on the Joba matter because I sure as heck wanted to know.
Predicting a future bad trade.
Jason Kidd for Devin Harris, Diop and 2 first round picks.
Randy Moss to the Pats for a 5th round pick i believe.