What? There’s no game?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 21, 2008 
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Through some odd blip in the baseball schedule, the Yankees are not playing today. That hasn’t happened since March 31.
Some of the guys went to Chicago and will enjoy the day off there. Others went back to New York or their homes elsewhere. The Yankees will meet up again at U.S. Cellular Field on Tuesday. There’s optional early batting practice at 2 p.m.
It’s a day off for me, too. I’m not sure how much blogging there will be but at the very least we’ll try and get an update from the Yankees on A-Rod’s condition.
Meanwhile, the Yankees play 13 straight days starting Tuesday. That will make it 33 games in 34 days with 18 of the games coming on the road. Twenty percent of the season will be over by May 4. How crazy is that?
Something to think about on the day off
From KFFL newswire..
Yankees | The Boss: Start Joba now
Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:51:31 -0700
Michael S. Schmidt, of The New York Times, is reporting New York Yankees managing partner Hank Steinbrenner told media on April 20 that his choice would be to start SP Joba Chamberlain immediately instead of having him pitch relief. “I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now,” Steinbrenner said.
Hank,… Innings cap? Or are you going to give him half starts of 4 innings or something?
I think it’s safe to say Hank knows more about the secret innings cap than we do, so if he’s suggesting this, he obviously knows that it can be done without ruining the innings cap.
Let Joba pitch 5 innings max at first and let Kennedy pitch in relief after him. This would give them both more innings than they would get in the bullpen but would also prevent them from being overused.
If you’re going to move Joba to the rotation at this point, I think the obvious thing to do is send Kennedy down so he can continue to pitch regularly, he’s not exactly what you want coming out of the bullpen right now and it’s not in his best interest anyway. Bringing up Patterson or Allbaladejo would be the better move to pair with it.
On a different note, am I alone in thinking the yankees offense could use a little jolt of Shelly Duncan? Here’s also to hoping Betemit gets put on waivers before returning from this DL stint, he’s the first guy to put on pin stripes that has made me miss felix heredia…
Hank needs to shut his trap and allow his baseball people to manage how they utilize Joba.
20% of the baseball season will be over by May 4.
One round of the NBA playoffs will be over by May 4.
MORE ON CLIP OF HANK. He also mentions rotation being in good shape, w/ IPK,JOBA,PHIL,ANDY,&WANG. Never mentions mussina once. is ther something in the air?
“Twenty percent of the season will be over by May 4. How crazy is that?”
Forget the needless player injury and fan pneumonia risk from playing in the cold, rain and snow in the Midwest and East. A lot of pitchers can’t pitch and many hitters don’t hit in this weather. The teams slog through it, hoping to avoid too many injuries and seeking to tread water in the standings. What kind of baseball is that? I’ll tell you in a word: irrelevant.
We all wind up impatiently marking time through April, waiting for things “to warm up” so we can tell if our team is really any good or not. Under this year’s schedule, we’ll wind up writing off 20% of the season because it is inferior, sub-par baseball.
Eventually the fans are going to stop going to April games and even the cable and satellite networks are going to figure out they are airing crappy product. Maybe a couple of double headers in the warmer weather will create some breathing room for this amphetamine, er, Red Bull-driven schedule. Something’s got to give. Sprinkle in some double headers in the warm weather and at least you’re not swimming around the bases or risking frostbite (and it saves jet fuel!)
But, I guess I should just put my faith in Bud. He knows what he’s doing. After all, he did wonders for the illegal drug trade before that guy Mitchell messed it all up.
Here’s a chance for the Yankees to regroup as a team. The bullpen will be rested and with at least one roster move (Shelley for one) the team will be ready for the final road trip of April with the visits to Chicago and Cleveland.
“Steinbrenner said Sunday by telephone. “There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.—
If this report is true, I guess it’s settled then, pretty sure Girardi wouldn’t want the new boss to think he’s an “idiot”. I don’t have a problem with Hank thinking that or even pressuring Joe to do that behind closed doors, afterall it’s his team. But he shouldn’t be saying this in public, stuff like this should be left for Cashman and Joe to address.
Right now, Cashman is probably laying low. He is the architect of this season.It may turn out his way yet and the young ones may rise to the occasion, but right now he is probably laying low in his office hoping the phone doesn’t ring.
This has seemed like the longest month ever. I don’t even mean simply with respect to baseball. I think because it’s hovered between winter and spring, a kind of limbo, wanting to say goodbye to the cold, miserable weather and anxious for the warmer days of spring and summer. It hasn’t felt like baseball season at all! And with a 10-10 record, treading water as many of us said we’d be satisfied with, it truly feels like the Yankees are running in place. Plus, it kind of feels like an extension of spring training, with a few things still up in the air, and the question of what the team will look like in a month very much the same question that we had in March.
murphydog -
Alas, I don’t see any changes in scheduling on either the far or near horizon. They’ll never schedule doubleheaders. It’s not in the baseball vernacular anymore. And if they do, it’ll be the day/night variety for the box office receipts. It would be interesting to see what attendance is across the major leagues for April weeknight games, in the colder parts of the country. Specifically, it would be interesting to see what the ADVANCE sales numbers are. Because I know I would never even consider going to a night game in April, because I don’t like the cold weather.
But I don’t see people not watching the games on television, because as inferior as they may be to games played, say, a month from now when the rust wears off, it’s still baseball after several months without.
I’m looking forward to hearing about ARod’s condition, but I’m pretty resigned to hearing he’s going to be day-to-day, with the wind-up being he misses about a week of games; but I think during that week his wife will also give birth to their daughter, so it’s kind of a two-for-one.
After asking the question the other night of whether Joe Girardi regrets signing on for “The Joe Girardi Show,” I watched last night to see how he handled it after a particularly tough week. Well, I suppose he handled it just fine. Anyone looking for deep answers is not going to get any. He has established that he is not going to be breaking any news on the show. He was emphatic that Joba will be a starter, but was noncommittal with regard to when, as I would expect anyway. Commenting on Cano and Giambi, again he said both were hitting line drives and into some bad luck. He’s certainly not going to criticize his players on television, that would be counterproductive at the very least. His response to the question of whether Mussina will be able to pitch inside was interesting. He kind of laughed when Michael Kay asked him how he could be sure that Moose would do it. I suspect he and Moose have had “the talk.”
The questions they’re choosing on the “Ask Joe” segment seem reflective of the types of questions that come up here on a daily basis, and he’s answered the questions. Maybe not with as much detail as some might like, but I think he does his best not to talk around a question without giving at least some pertinent answer.
So, I guess he’ll be just fine doing “The Joe Girardi Show.” My suggestion is, after last night’s show, is that he needs someone to select his shirts for him. It looked like he was going bowling after the taping.
(Can’t resist commenting on the clothing!)
They better start playing better baseball. I understand the growing pains that is young pitching, but the offense has been terribly lackluster so far and its getting to be really disconcerting.
I must admit that I’d prefer that the Yankees continue to use Mussina and/or Kennedy in the starting rotation, but it looks as though Hank has scuttled that possibilty. However, the Yankees will be without Joba for almost a month while he gets “stretched out” for his new role. He’ll have to go to the minors to gradually increase his pitch count from 30 to 50 to 75 to 90 (or so) in successive starts or bullpen sessions (every 5 days).
If the Yankees are going to use Joba as a starter so soon, this should have been done in spring training. So that’s some consolation for Sox fans.
But we have Bartolo Colon in the wings, so we have a Plan B also. (Good grief!)
sunny615 -
It’s been difficult enough watching the young pitchers struggle, but I think most people were ready for at least some of that. It’s been much, much more difficult to watch the offense. That’s been killer. To see RISP stranded game after game, for the most part, and no one able to come up with a clutch hit with any smattering of consistency. To feel like a 2 run deficit is insurmountable. That’s been the worst!!
They don’t need a month to stretch out Joba. The Dodgers stretched out Billingsley last year for a starting role and didn’t even send him to the minors while doing it.
It also depends how much longer they keep him in the setup role. This early in the season, and the fact that he was conditioned to start all spring, he probably has 40-50 pitches in him for his work right now.
Meaning, if they decided to do it on or around May 1, he would be ready to start by Mid-May.
That gives him approx. 22-25 starts this season, which will fall within his innings limit.
Folks may not like Hank talking but what he is saying is absolutely correct.
Its a waste to have a kid with Joba’s stuff pitching in the 8th inning of games.
If it isn’t, then somebody explain to me why guys like Beckett, Verlander, Halliday, and every other #1 type of starter in baseball isn’t in a setup role.
I can’t feel anything but nervous about Wednesday’s game when Mussina throws 86 mph meatballs at Thome, Crede, Konerko, & Co.
Pete-
Any word as to the length of suspension for George Sherrill who ‘headhunted’ in the 9th inning of yesterday’s game? He threw behind the head of Johnny Damon, who had homered in his previous at bat. Seems like it should be at least 3 games, since that seems to be Bob Watson’s standard and he will NOT TOLERATE headhunting. Plus Sherrill is the O’s closer- so he must have better control than Farnsworth. Peter Gammons couldn’t be reached for comment.
Morning everyone. I got back from Baltimore 9:30 ish last night. Traffic was a witch!!
I’ll give a very quick recap.
I won’t even discuss Saturdays game since it was awful!
Sundays game was a thing of beauty!! Had a friend would had extra tickets behind Alex, so we sold our other tickets and moved there! Get this! Those were only 40 bucks cheaper than my tickets in the club level! Any way we sat 20 feet away from Alex!!
Andy pitched a terrific game!! I actually thought Alex had a shot to throw out, what was the first hit of the game, not exactly sure why he didn’t throw it! Also the pick off play, why was that not ruled an error? Jason threw the ball away letting the runner get to third?
And there was somethng really funny, not sure that it came off on tv. I think it was Morgan got to second and thought the ball got away from the ss so he started to run to third, and all the Yankee fans yelled NOOOOO so he turned around and went back to second.
We ended up leaving after the first rain delay, it was already the 8th inning, and wanted to get a head start on the traffic. We did get to watch the last two outs at a resturant on the road. Woody’s Crab house. Exit 100 off I-95! Great food! Always stop on the way back!
The possible emergence of Joba in the starting rotation, Ian Kennedy finding himself, and several good starts by Alan Horne at AAA would definitely grease the skids of Mussina’s departure before the All Star break.
The Steinbrenners would find the remainder of Mussina’s contract easy to absorb if it means the team’s pitching has become a real strength minus Mussina and an optimistic view toward the playoffs.
One other thing about Joba and his role.
Its much more stressful on a pitchers arm to work out of the bullpen. You pitch 2-3 times per week, and counting warmup pitches, you throw much more than you do if you are a starting pitcher.
Look at Ohlendorf right now. He’s throwing WAY too much, IMO.
He trained all off-season and in ST to be a short inning relief pitcher. Now, he is the de facto long man.
That’s a lot of strain on your arm. Frankly, the Yankees are playing with fire using him as they have this season.
Its why in addition to putting Joba in the rotation, they need to callup a guy like Rasner and use him as a dedicated long man.
Its unfair and dangerous to continue to overuse Ohlendorf in that role. You are playing with fire putting that much strain on anybody’s arm, let alone a kid with the upside of Ohlendorf.
Vince said:
>> I can’t feel anything but nervous about Wednesday’s game >> when Mussina throws 86 mph meatballs at Thome, Crede, >> Konerko, & Co.
If only Mussina would throw AT them, that would be better! Instead, he’ll throw it down the middle of the plate, creating many souvineirs for those White Sox fans in the bleachers.
“He [Steinbrenner] also said he thought Mike Mussina, who is 39, “just needs to learn how to pitch like Jamie Moyer,†the Phillies’ 45-year-old starter, suggesting that Mussina shouldn’t try to rely on his diminished fastball to get hitters out.”
Well, that was easy! While we’re at it, Bruney just needs to learn to throw the cutter like Mariano. Cano just needs to learn to hit like A-Rod and Melky just needs to watch some tape of Mantle to cover CF better.
I don’t know why we even have Eiland and Long when Hank is here to provide guidance and support.
SJ44 – I agree that Joba should be stretched out in the majors and not sent down, but what type of schedule do you think he would follow to accomplish that?
I would have to agree wholeheartedly Doreen. The clutch hitting has been horrendous so far and it’s been nothing but painful to watch. I understand we’ve had our spattering of injuries (again) – along with suspensions and god knows what else… but if this team was able to help Randy Johnson (Mr. 5 ERA) to 17 wins (twice), I don’t see why they can’t help these kids out either. It’s getting to be really difficult to watch.
I concur with SJ’s thinking toward Ohlendorf and all the more reason why Rasner should be summoned for the long relief / spot starter role.
With the uncertanties of Mussina and Kennedy going deep into games, Rasner could provide some ease.
Decisions could be made before Tuesday’s game and uplifting news would see Rasner and Shelley Duncan reporting in time for Tuesday’s game in Chicago.
The catching situation appears safe enough to be able to sent Moeller down.
As for Giambi ………….
Does anyone have a link to the fight that broke out at Saturdays Met/Phillies game. I read in the paper that it spilled onto the field!
I think the Yankees need to follow the Jays lead and release Jason. That throw into CF could have been a killer! We had the guy picked off and he wasn’t even close on the throw.
Ross Ohlendorf should throw no more than 70 total innings this season. It’s his first year in the pen and even 70 is a high workload.
He’s already thrown 14 as a long man. Throwing one 3 inning stint is easier than throwing 3 one inning stints but innings are still innings and he’s not used to the grind of relieving over a long season.
He’s already thrown 14 innings. Most of anyone on the team. The yanks have 50-55 innings left of ohlendorf. If Joba’s moving to the rotation they are going to need the innings Ohlendorf has in his arm need to be saved for high leverage situations when Joba is in the rotation.
Girardi needs to stop using him as a long man.
Very interesting post over at the replacement level yankees blog on whether Giambi’s is done.
It’s a statistical look on what’s been going on over the beginning of the season.
I knew his batting average on balls in play was low but it’s very low (0.088).
Good read.
http://www.replacementlevel.co.....mbi_cooked
testing
Shouldn’t we assume about 20 or so innings for the “stretching out” process (which I agree can and should happen at the MLB level), doesn’t that leave him with about 115 IP??? That’s roughly twenty 6 inning starts. What about the postseason??? What would his availability be then??
I think they should stretch him out in the majors. Well, I still want him to be the set-up man/future closer, but if we can’t get to the 8th inning with a lead then he needs to be in the rotation. Instead of losing him for a few weeks (it was hard going a week without him) start him and let him go 2-3 innings on either Mussina or Kennedy’s starts then use one of them out of the bullpen and keep stretching Joba and maybe make Mussina the long man. That would also let us use Olendorf in a middle-late innings role, he’s been pitching great.
“His response to the question of whether Mussina will be able to pitch inside was interesting. He kind of laughed when Michael Kay asked him how he could be sure that Moose would do it. I suspect he and Moose have had “the talk.â€
thanks for the update doreen since i don’t get yes network out of market . girardi’s comments are interesting because i was very adamant , when farnsworth retaliated to manny in a goon like way that goes against the code the players themselves play by, that it was mussina’s fault. his passivity is putting players at risk including his own .
it is seems like splitting hairs when deciding when an inside pitch crosses the line that violates the players unwritten code with each other. joba last year buzzing youkillis didn’t cross the line because he has control and no matter what youkillis did the pitches wouldn’t have hit him because he would have had to jump up to have gotten hit.
manny never saw that pitch. that’s why he wasn’t that mad . that was as close to disaster as you’ll see because the natural inclination is to back up. luckily the ball missed .
the problem is mussina. he can’t survive without pitching up and in. down and in doesn’t count because there is more time to hit it. what manny is doing if you watch him is covering the outside of the plate looking for breaking balls and off speed pitches . if mussina comes in with a low inside fastball he reacts to it as we saw whenever mussina went down there.
this is exactly the opposite of the way all hitters hit. they look fastball and react breaking ball. mussina can get by if hitters give him enough credit and look fastball and react breaking ball, but he can’t survive the way he pitches now if the whole league looks breaking ball and off speed first.
but he could survive when hitters look for off speed first if he threw nasty high inside pitches that hitters had to pay attention to.
it’s a volitional choice for mussina. it’s under his control. it’ll still take a little time if he makes the decision to pitch aggressively up and in because he’s not used to doing it. shilling went through learning pains when he started doing this two years ago when he had to make the change to a finesse pitcher. he hit a boston college kid in the head in spring training trying to get into that up and inside zone. it’s got to be a four seam fastball because the two seamer moves in on righties and chases them- too dangerous( pedro used to throw them) to control. mariano tended to hit too many right handed hitters with his two seam up and in when he was experimenting with it. so it’s got to be four seam.
mussina has such good control that it’s not dangerous for him to go up and in aggressively. it’s not going against any baseball player code. not going up and in and not backing up teammates by refusing to retaliate when appropriate does violate a players responsibility to his teammates.
i thought girardi would have this talk. i hope he did. i don’t see how he could not have it. mussina really has no choice if he wants to keep pitching with the whole league seeing the approach manny is using. once the league picks it up he’s done if he doesn’t adapt.
I doubt very much that the Yankees would release Giambi. The guy was hitting over .400 in ST and seems to be one of the more outspoken clubhouse leaders so I just don’t think they are ready to part ways. Unless he is willing to accept a trade back to his old stomping grounds (Giants perhaps, not A’s). More likely they would ask him to go to the minors and work on his game but he refused to do this a few years ago (and then started to swing the bat better). Perhaps this time he might accept that advice but if not I think they’ll just make him the left handed PH and play him occasionaly.
Duncan needs to come up as soon as they determine that Molina and/or Posada can catch again so they can demote Moeller.
Gonzales should be the utility guy (instead of Betemit) with Ensberg backing up 3rd and perhaps platooning at first.
I’d look at moving Betemit perhaps for Doug M from Pittsburgh. That gives us a decent late inning defensive infield (any combo of Arod, Jeter, Cano, Gonzales, Doug M).
Damon showed some signs of getting out of his funk yesterday but I would consider batting him 9th in the lineup and leading off with Melky. Having Damon-Melky-Jeter-Abreu-Arod together gives us the best chance to use speed to pressure a defense. I also hope that sitting Abreu against lefties does not become a habit… Matsui can not play right field with the arm he has… and Abreu is patient enough to be fine against most lefties.
Hughes and Kennedy are showing improvement… Hughes had 5 strong innings and Kennedy was near the plate most of the time. He was just trying to be too perfect and will learn he has to throw strikes. Mussina is another worry – too stubborn to throw inside.
I agree with most of you the Joba should start and Ohlendorf/Bruney need to be the 8th inning bridge to Mo. They are tempting fate by using Ohlendorf as the long relief guy… think Tanyon Sturtz.
Ohlendorf is being wasted, Joba needs to start.
I like Hank’s quote about Moose – just pitch like Jamie Moyer..Haha killer
Hank needs to shut the hell up and let the baseball people run the baseball. All these “make Joba a starter” people have yet to come up with an alternative person to be a set up man for Mo. Farnsworthless? Are you kidding? Alba? Do we even know he can do it? You give me a pitcher who is going to be as reliable as Joba has been as a set up man and I’ll be the first one leading the “Joba as a starter” charge. Until then, tell the hitters to start acting like the high paid millionaires they are and go out there and win some games.
It’s amazing how the hitter’s grapevine works. The buzz goes around the league on what pitchers are throwing and it takes little time before they’re figured out. We saw it last year for example with Matsuzaka in discovering that he changes his approach with runners on base and pitching from the stretch. It drives up his pitch count.
More hitters than Manny Ramirez have Mussina figured out. He’s not a Greg Maddux type. Mussina is a stick with what you have kind of pitcher and stubborn to a fault.
“thanks for the update doreen since i don’t get yes network out of market . girardi’s comments are interesting because i was very adamant , when farnsworth retaliated to manny in a goon like way that goes against the code the players themselves play by, that it was mussina’s fault.”
Farnworth throwing at Manny was Mussina’s fault? It was in now way shape or form Mussina’s fault. What Farnsworth chose to do was of his own volition. Mussina can’t control what idiot pitchers like Farnsworth do.
just like some pitchers can mess up hitters for a week after they face him , mussina singlehandedly put the red sox into a hitting groove.
they’re been on a late rallying tear, and they haven’t lost since they faced him.
thanks mike.
“it’s a volitional choice for mussina. it’s under his control. it’ll still take a little time if he makes the decision to pitch aggressively up and in because he’s not used to doing it.”
I dunno…I mean, he hit ellsbury twice when he was ahead on the count. It CLEARLY wasn’t on purpose. Perhaps it is mental, but he clearly is having difficulty coming inside effectively. And every time he screws up it makes him more reluctant to throw inside.
On Giambi…I know he keeps saying he’s hitting the ball hard and hitting into “bad luck”…but I wonder if he’s equating hitting hard into the shift with bad luck. I mean, he can keep hitting liners and hard ground balls to the right side all he wants, and he’s not going to get hits. He needs to get it out of his head that that’s ok. I mean…he’s gotten some tailor-made opposite field hitting opportunities and botched them. 85MPH over the outer half? PUT IT IN LEFT!!!
“You give me a pitcher who is going to be as reliable as Joba has been as a set up man”
Would you rather have Justin Verlander on your team, or Scott Shields?
Would you rather have 7-6 games in the 8th inning, or 7-3 games in the 8th inning?
Gotta love Hank Steinbrenner. He’s talkative, but he’s smart, or at least the baseball people in his ear are smart. By the way, I bet some of those baseball people are on blogs such as these.
Laura, I’m sorry but that makes no sense, Joba right now is one of the top 3 relievers in the game on his stuff alone. The point here is the next SU man has to get the ball to Mo more times than not and Ross Ohlendorf right now seems to be that guy. Joba needs to be stretched out, IDK what the issue here he is an Ace starter in the making is better for the Yankees future.
The problem here is too many people are coming up w/ excuses why he can’t go into the rotation. If he doesn’t go into that rotation it will be the same story next season. I’d bet this season Ohlendorf gets shut down especially in the role he is now. Abaladejo ? I love how people diss players because of not knowing what they can contribute, Alba has been solid, you ask people around the league he’s a SU guy on someone else’s team, instead here he is a AAA break in case of emergency guy, just like Edwar and Scott Patterson.
The issue is not about who will take over for Joba they have plenty of options, the issue is when this season.
“Hank needs to shut the hell up and let the baseball people run the baseball.”
The baseball people are running the team.
This is the key point where Hank differs from George.
Sure Hank is blustery and outspoken. I’d prefer him to not be so publicly vocal but it is his team.
However, to date, there is no evidence – none – that Hank is meddling with the decision making by the baseball people.
And here’s the thing with Joba. All of the Yankee’s baseball people – all of them – see Joba as a starter. There was never any thought in their minds of keeping Joba in the pen.
That was a decision made by the baseball people – Cashman, Nardi Contreras, Stick Michael, Girardi, etc.
The only question the baseball people have had is when Joba should be moved to the rotation – not if.
So when Hanks is saying that Joba needs to be in the starting rotation all he’s doing is reiterating the only position the organization’s baseball people have ever taken regarding Joba.
The baseball people want Joba in the starting rotation as soon as it’s safe for him to do so with respect to his innings cap. That primarily what Hank was saying (granted in a very hyperbolic way).
In fact, the people who are disagreeing with the Yankee’s baseball people and are insisting Joba needs to stay in the pen are members of the media and some fans.
It’s largely been vocal members of the media who have been vociferous in their opposition to moving Joba to the rotation that have butted heads with the yankees baseball people (see Mike and the Mad Dog). It hasn’t been Hank who has fought with the baseball people on this issue. He’s supported the decision they’ve made and is now doing so once again, publicly.
Hank’s not disagreeing with the yankee’s baseball people nor is he making them do something that they don’t want to (which he can’t as Hal has 50% control of the team – see the santana negotiations).
Hank is simply restating the only position the baseball people have ever taken on this issue.
“Farnworth throwing at Manny was Mussina’s fault”
sure it was. mussina refuses to do his own dirty work because he thinks it’s beneath him. even manny knew he had to be brushed back. mussina refuses to do it. so a teammate has to do it for him. it just happened that farnsworth was the one who was on the mound when manny came up.
farnsworth tried to what had to be done , but he doesn’t have the necessary neuron connections to do it in the way he should have. if mussina would have taken care of his own business, farnsworth wouldn’t have had to do something he doesn’t know how to do.
it was clearly mussina’s fault.
this isn’t just mussina either. kennedy can’t pitch in the major leagues successfully unless he goes up and in aggressively.
I have no issues with Hank as of yet. I find his outspokenness entertaining.
If he does something that impedes the development of the team, I’ll have an issue, but he could have overruled Cash to get Santana and he didn’t.
that speaks volumes.
I was at yesterdays game at field level. I watch all the infielders move all hte ay to the right side. it was actually quite comical. You get a very different perspective of the game. The left side was so wide open! Right now he isn’t hitting worth anything, so lay down bunt,maybe they won’t over shift as much if they think you will.
CB-Randy.
Good Points. An 83mph hour brushback though doesn’t have the same lasting impression as a Farnsworth 97mph brushback.
Also, If you have to watch any of the games this week with the Chicago feed with Hawk Harrelson doing the games then Vegas has set the over/under at 14.5 minutes before you hit the mute button…
-dennis
If they are going to turn Joba into a starter, now is the time. They can’t do it in June. He needs to go down to AAA to prepare. I don’t know that you want to prepare him in the Majors.
“Also, If you have to watch any of the games this week with the Chicago feed with Hawk Harrelson doing the games then Vegas has set the over/under at 14.5 minutes before you hit the mute button…”
Tell me about it. I’m in ChiTown and I have to watch the games on TV, but listen to the audio from MLB.tv. That’s just how bad Harrelson is.
I agree I haven’t found any issue w/ Hank, it’s his team now and he hasn’t over ruled anything, infact it’s been the opposite and he’s been going w/ his baseball people on this decision, it’s the fans/media excluding Pete that are sounding off. Which is ridiculous because those are the same people that didn’t know who Joba was last in January, let alone in June at Tampa camp. On top of that they wanted him traded midseason I still remember the rumors why not trade Joba for Salty or Texeira or Gagne…these people didn’t know who Joba was all they knew was he could hit 100 mph on his gun, so I don’t want them dictating where Joba is on the staff.
Why would you want to waste any of the 140 innings in the minors? YOu stretch him out up here. Piggy back his starts with someone else.
Who in God’s name is “Albert Puljols�
Evidently, Girardi shares Cashman’s paranoia about the disclosure of injuries.
Actually, Girardi’s entire demeanor in his post-games leaves much to be desired. He’s been hostile, testy, cryptic and evasive. You’d think the press was asking him to reveal state secrets when they ask questions about players’ injuries.
Half the reason fans watch the banal post-game show, to begin with, is to find out the severity of injuries a player may have sustained or to discover how much time he’s apt to miss.
If the Yankeees don’t want to disclose the information because of privacy issues or because they believe it impairs their strategic posture, then they should be forthright and say so.
Girardi’s evasiveness only encourages the press to be all the more bumptious and intrusive in their questions.
As it is, Cashman is insufferable to listen to in public interviews: he rambles and filibusters, he’s tedious and pedantic, and he’s so guarded that his responses sound outright disingenuous. I hope Girardi doesn’t emulate Cashman in this regard.
Otherwise the Yankees are only going to inflame the media and whet their passion to penetrate the veil they’ve enveloped themselves in.
Pretty soon, reporters will start phoning Hank to get updates on player’s health and then woe be unto all of us.
And he has. See Michael Schmidt’s article in today’s Times. The maelstrom already has been unleashed.
“If they are going to turn Joba into a starter, now is the time. They can’t do it in June. He needs to go down to AAA to prepare. I don’t know that you want to prepare him in the Majors.”
no somewhere around interleague play would be the time. He’d prep in minor league ball to build up the confidence against swing and miss bats, and mix his 3rd and 4th pitch too.
Here is a great website imploring the White Sox to fire Hawk.
http://www.heavethehawk.com
Take a look if time permits. It is hysterical.
-dennis
whozat -
you guys are wearing me out. i’m trying to get some work done here.lol.
ellsbury probably picked up on the same scouting report that manny was following and that was to cover the outside part of the plate and don’t worry inside. he was os on top of the plate that one of those pitches that hit him looked like an inside strike. the ump shouldn’t have called it a hit batter.
shilling really had problems two years ago in spring training when he made the switch to being a finesse pitcher and knew he had to learn to go up and in aggressively ( ironically against his reputation shilling didn’t go up there that often earlier in his career because he had such command and stuff that he didn’t need to when he threw hard). he hit a lot of hitters unintentionally. but once he got it down, he reinvented himself until he got hurt this year.
ellsbury was just cheating in too much which wouldn’t happen if mussina had a reputation for pitching aggresively up and in. mussina will probably have to go through an ugly duckiling period where hitters who are cheating in will get hit until they move back to where they should be.
i think that’s what happened with ellsbury.
Dennis,
You guys had a good weekend. Manny is just unbelievably locked in right now.
He’s had a great career – but is this the best you’ve seen him, in term so of peak performance?
He’s hitting .338 with a .703 slugging percentage and a .410 OBP. Small sample or not – a 1.100 OPS is impressive. Anytime a slugging percentage get in the .700 range that’s really out of this world production.
One of the most amazing and least talked about parts of the season Ted Williams had in 1941 – not only did he hit .406. But his slugging percentage that year was .735. I always find that just amazing. The guy hit .400 and slugged .735 in the same season. How is that possible? And his OBP was .553. He was on base over half the time! A 1.288 OPS. Unbelievable.
My problem with Hank is that he is causing problems for Girardi and Cash on an issue that doesn’t need to be “front burner” right now.
Every time Phil, IPK or Moose has a bad start there is going to be a ton of Joba to the rotation questions. Added pressure to rookie starters doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.
Unless I am missing something (and I’m not a math major) – it doesn’t make sense to start Joba more than 20 times this year unless you want to risk his arm. (assuming six innings/start, save some for the post season, innings cap around 140). I haven’t worked out the timing yet but I guess that would put it about a third of the way into the season.
So now Moose and the rooks have to deal with 2 months of rotation “death watch” for no reason other than Hank wanted to see his name in the paper.
If you are going to do switch Joba eventually, the first time we ought to hear about it is when it is being put in action. Everyone (Cash, Hank, Girardi) was already on record saying Joba is a starter. What is the point of stirring up the pot?
I loved Hank’s comments about the Sox – I have no problem with him griping about ESPN – Giving that excavated Ortiz jersey to the Jimmy Fund was brilliant and classy.
Just don’t cause distractions that impact the team.
“it was clearly mussina’s fault.”
No it wasn’t. Throwing behind a guys back is not the same as brushing a guy off the plate. Farnsworth took it in his own hands and threw at Manny.
raymagnetic-
why should other pitchers have to do mussina’s dirty work?
I said it before and I’ll say it again, I have no problem w/ Farnsy’s throw to Manny. This should be it w/ that subject.
Seems like there’s more 2 game series this year than in year’s past.
“raymagnetic-
why should other pitchers have to do mussina’s dirty work?”
Throwing behind a guys head isn’t something I want to see any pitcher doing let alone a guy who’s throwing 97mph. That’s not doing anybody’s dirty work. That’s Kyle Farnsworth pitching dirty.
Furthermore you don’t hit guys for hitting HR’s off of you. You pitch better next time. If you don’t like Manny posing after HR’s throw better pitches. That’s just my opinion however.
does anyone know where i can see video of hughes’ almost no-hitter in texas last year?
“Furthermore you don’t hit guys for hitting HR’s off of you. You pitch better next time. If you don’t like Manny posing after HR’s throw better pitches.”
you must think the game is softball
speaking from experience and beaned a few times , that’s part of the game and a batter knows not to pose other he’s eating dirt, I had that happen to me in H.S. you live w/ it and learn not to do it.
speaking from experience and being beaned a few times , that’s part of the game and a batter knows not to pose otherwise he’s eating dirt, I had that happen to me in H.S. you live w/ it and learn not to do it.*
it’s early
Dennis – thanks for the Harrelson link. He is one annoying fellow. Funny stuff on that website.
CB.
Thanks for the post. Good Stuff. Any surprise that this is an option year with Manny?
Francona giving 3 starters the day off today. I know over the long haul that it is a smart thing to do but it drives me nuts.
It is TX but you have to win the games that you should in MLB.
-dennis
Kind of hard for Hank to be “causing problems” for Girardi and Cashman when they are all in agreement on the issue. The only issue is timing. We would all be quite naive to think that, behind the scenes, they aren’t discussing this option right now.
Fact is, like it or not, he’s right. Joba does belong in the rotation now.
Its not like this is some newsflash.
You have 3 guys in the rotation who, at least to date, haven’t been able to pitch with any level of consistency.
You have what may be the best arm in the baseball sitting in the 8th inning. A kid who has ace stuff. Precisely the type of thing the Yankees have been looking for the past several years.
So, why pray tell, should he stay in the bullpen? Innings limits?
We’ve already shown how they can be handled to preserve his innings limitations.
If I’m the owner of the team, and I am speaking with my GM today, I want direct answers to the following 3 questions:
1. When is Joba going to the rotation?
2. Why in God’s name am I paying $205 million bucks in payroll and we don’t have ONE first baseman on the roster?
3. What are our options if Giambi continues to slide?
Whether Hank does this privately (the preferred method) or publicly (the least preferred method), asking those questions is not out of line as the owner of the team.
“speaking from experience and being beaned a few times , that’s part of the game and a batter knows not to pose otherwise he’s eating dirt”
Manny’s been posing for a while and I haven’t seen him eating dirt as of yet.
I just hope that Girardi doesn’t have a “problem” with the owner again like how he did for the Marlins. I mean, its still early in the season. Sure we can’t let it get away from us in April, so we adjust accordingly. Maybe this is the right move, maybe not. But I’d like for Hank to say it in a better fashion. Address it better, maybe. I don’t know. He’s just like daddy, I suppose. Media first, then internally. Here’s hoping a day’s rest for the team can help us out a little.
i had a thought today… most people will find it nuts.
what’s wrong in offering david wells a minor league deal?
SJ
Do they take a look at Frank Thomas?
“Manny’s been posing for a while and I haven’t seen him eating dirt as of yet.”
trust me he will eat dirt soon if he doesn’t cut it out. Girardi has made that clear.
“Maybe this is the right move, maybe not. But I’d like for Hank to say it in a better fashion. Address it better, maybe. I don’t know. He’s just like daddy, I suppose. Media first, then internally. Here’s hoping a day’s rest for the team can help us out a little.”
You’re assuming they haven’t addressed it internally. Why would you think that?
Viewing Hughes no-hitter available at: In your dreams”
because it will never happen again!
“what’s wrong in offering david wells a minor league deal?”
no..stamina is a big issue w/ him and he is not what he use to be.
“Do they take a look at Frank Thomas?”
GOD NO
Throwing at somebody’s head is a no no. I don’t care if he hits 20 HR’s in a row off you. You don’t do it.
Throwing inside? Its part of the game and if you don’t do it, you don’t last long in MLB.
The Farnsworth suspension is a joke on several fronts.
First, its completely inconsistent with Watson’s previous rulings. Pedro put 2 Yankees in the hospital and received neither a fine nor suspension for his actions. Farnsworth didn’t even hit Manny.
Second, if this was Rangers-Royals, nobody would be saying anything about it. Its a kneejerk reaction to the teams that are playing, not to the incident which occurred.
3. The other night, Sean Green of the Mariners beaned Vlad Guerrero. Hit him square in the head after throwing 3 other pitches up and in during the AB. He was warned. No ejection. Just like Farnsworth was warned for NOT hitting Manny.
So far, Watson hasn’t suspended Green. It was clear as day he was throwing at him and actually hit him in the head! Yet, no suspension.
Look, I don’t want players getting hurt. That’s not what the game is about.
But, if you are going to be the “lord” of discipline, at least show some consistency in your rulings.
He doesn’t and only time constraints preclude me from showing more examples of his inconsistencies in this area.
The bigger joke will be if he reduces Farnsworth’s suspension after hearing the appeal.
If you are so firm in your ruling that this was intentional, then you can’t reduce the sentence.
If he does, it just speaks louder as to what a joke the suspension was in the first place.
“Do they take a look at Frank Thomas?”
Why? Why? Why would they want to ADD a DH to this team? Especially one who got off to such a slow start the he got released?
No on Wells and No on Thomas.
The roster already has too many DH’s on it. Why add another?
Wells? Can’t pitch in the AL anymore.
Is he any worse than Giambi?
I would think that Thomas would be the last player that Girardi would want. He is everything that Girardi preaches against being. -dennis
david wells throws strikes.
any count, any time regardless of age. i think he could spend some time in aaa, see if he is ok to do it, if not, just cut him. couldnt cost you much
Great post SJ.
If I’m the owner of this team I want to know what the plan is to fix what is wrong with this team.
The crazy thing is, at least to me, Cashman doesn’t even have to make trades to fix some of these problems.
He has solutions in house.
There is no way he could trade for an arm like Joba’s to plug into the rotation.
Get him stretched over the next 2 weeks and make him a starter. If it means Kennedy goes down for Rasner, so be it.
If it means we have a conversation with Mussina that tells him we can try to trade him to a NL team or he’ll be released, so be it.
As for Giambi, Shelley Duncan deserves a chance to show what he can do as a regular 1b. Not a platoon. A regular. Give him a chance.
Let’s see if he is a major league starter or not. He cannot do worse than Giambi in the field or at the plate.
He also has Gardner to come up be a spark plug and give the team some speed.
In order to do it, Cashman has to put his big boy pants on and deal with the failing vets.
If he’s afraid of ruffling the feathers of guys like Damon and Giambi and Mussina who are all being paid tens of millions to play for this team, then he doesn’t deserve the spot he is in.
I still think Damon should come out of this slump and be productive, but he should be on a short leash.
If there’s a team in the league that would consider him in a trade, I think the Yanks should part ways with him.
He doesn’t appear to be a table setter anymore. He looks like a 7-9 hitter in an AL lineup now.
“what’s wrong in offering david wells a minor league deal?”
Wells couldn’t pitch in the NL last year. He’ll get pummeled in the AL.
But even outside of that, the yankees already have numbers issues in their AAA rotation. They have more guys who need to be in the AAA rotation than they have spots in the rotation.
Dan McCutchen is in AA at least in part because there’s no spot for him in the Scranton Rotation. Same for Chase Wright.
I’m not against signing a veteran starter off the scrap heap but he has to have enough of a probability of helping the team this year to warrant retarding the development of guys in the minors.
If there was room in the Scranton rotation I would much rather McCutchen get it than a David Wells as I think McCuthchen is more likle to help them than a very over the hill Wells is.
Yeah, I’m not saying get Thomas, but nothing would surprise me either.
Thomas is a DH. Hideki Matsui is the DH on this team. Matsui is a much better hitter than Frank Thomas as this stage of their respective career.
Jason Giambi doesn’t figure into the equation because he’s playing first base.
If you want to replace Giambi, which I’m all for, you do it by getting a first baseman. Not a DH.
That’s the thing G Love, they are in MUCH better shape than last year at this time.
Aside from getting a defensive glove at first, they can solve all of their current issues from within.
A far cry from past years.
Putting Joba in the roation today doesn’t make sense if you want to respect the innings-cap. If you want him to make 30 starts at 4 innings a piece maybe. But that would be stupid.
Forcing Joba, Moose IPK Girardi and Cash to answer a bunch of questions and deal with a bunch of media because you can’t keep your mouth shut is immature.
I don’t think Hank is to be denied here. He wanted Santana and didnt get him. In the short term, it’s obvious the team would have been better with Santana. That may not be true in 2010, but Hank is uncomfortable watching this team pitch right now.
I love the 90′s style bullpen theory of shortened games. Unfortunately, it looks like I can’t have my cake and eat it too lol. I had hoped Marquez and Horne could have helped to provide depth. Unlike last year, there are no minor league options available. Good luck to Joba in the rotation
whozat, I’m thinking they didn’t discuss it internally because he’s a steinbrenner. they like to shake things up first with the media. never directly, until its too late. not a good way to do business if you ask me. Just my two cents.
“Yeah, I’m not saying get Thomas, but nothing would surprise me either.”
that would surprise me because it would make no sense.
Giambi looks far more horrible than I can ever remember him bieing. Maybe this will be Shelly’s time to shine.
Sometimes I question if Hank has any baseball knowledge whatsoever.
Hey, I’ve got some good news on Giambi. His hitting should take off very shortly. I just cut him from my fantasy team.
That’s the kind of luck I have.
One last thing for me today. I really have to get some work done! lol
We don’t know if Cashman has, or will have, “the talk” with ownership re: Giambi.
By “the talk” I mean, going to your ownership and telling them they have to eat over 20 million bucks for the betterment of the team.
That’s not only not an easy conversation to have, it doesn’t always bear fruit with the result you are seeking.
When it comes to eating contracts, that’s not a GM decision. That’s an ownership decision.
We don’t have any idea how ownership feels about eating that much money.
So, while we can criticize Cashman on certain issues, when it comes to eating veteran contracts, the ball isn’t in his court on that one. That’s up to ownership.
Maybe Hank look at the present state of the rotation and realizes that if there is no improvement soon, that they may have to make some hard decisions.
“In order to do it, Cashman has to put his big boy pants on and deal with the failing vets.
If he’s afraid of ruffling the feathers of guys like Damon and Giambi and Mussina who are all being paid tens of millions to play for this team, then he doesn’t deserve the spot he is in.”
Cashman has ruffled quite a few veteran feathers over the past few years.
Wang and Cano? He wasn’t too hesitant to stick them into the fire and displace veterans who weren’t producing when he thought they were ready.
And consider Melky Cabrera. Remember how Bernie Williams was pushed out of his CF spot? Do you think that was Torre?
And think about last year – Melky displaces Johnny Damon from CF. So Cashman didn’t have any qualms about about pushing aside one of his big free agent signings for a 23 year old who was hitting .280 with a slightly below average OPS for a centerfield last year.
Same thing for Cashman deciding to convert Joba to the pen last year and puch aside Farnsworth and Vizcaino from the 8th inning role.
At this time last year everyone thought that Abreu was done for and should be DFA’d. Waiting on him paid off in a big way this year.
It’s difficult to make definitive conclusions in April.
Are there problems? Yes. It’s less clear right now, IMO, what to do. It’ll be much clearer in May.
Thomas is a brainless move. We have enough albatrosses.
Motown Yankees Fan …thanks for taking one for the team, friend ! Have an awesome day, ALL !
If Joba was transitioned to the rotation by May 15-20 (the project date if they decided this week to transition him), he would be available for 22-25 starts during the regular season.
That would give him approx. 120-140 innings of starting work. Well within his innings limitations for the season.
SJ I’d think he’d transistion in the rotation around interleague play somewhere before the Padres series.
You’re right CB.
I think I’m still having a bit of the Torre hangover where Torre would stick with injured vets over young guys who had some life in them
Cashman has made power moves towards failing vets.
I hope he can do it again. I’m not saying DFA anyone, but there should be some real competition for the 1b, LF and starting rotation spots.
I saw someone in another thread mention Freddy Garcia.
If he’s healthy and can give innings, he’s exactly the kind of pitcher we could use. He’s not an ace, but he can keep you in the games and win.
At this point in time, I’d much rather our rotaion be Pettite, Wang, Joba, Hughes and a guy like Garcia.
Let Kennedy get some more minor league experience this year and get Mussina out of the rotation.
I actually think Mussina could be an effective reliever since he doesn’t have the stuff to go through a lineup three times, but can work well in spots.
I just think his stubbornness and ego don’t translate to him helping this team any way he can. He’s still under the assumption he has the stuff to be a major league starter which any of us with a pair of eyes can see he is not.
SJ, thats exactly how i had him dated when i figured it out last week… i thought that when he was ready to come back from his father’s bedside that he shouldnt even come to the big league club… but instead, just report right to Scranton, or Trenton, or whereever he fits in to stretch out.
the bullpen has options to fill in for Joba in his absence, and the performance while he was gone, especially from Ohlendorf, Bruney, and Albaladejo, tell me that.
Garcia wouldnt be a bad option, but pitchers who come back from shoulder surgery like that just dont have a great track record of success the following summer.
Hank clarifies his comments to the NY Times. From Ed Price:
“Hank Steinbrenner said today he was quoted accurately but “misunderstood” when discussing Joba Chamberlain in today’s New York Times.
Steinbrenner, the Yankees’ co-chairperson, did say the goal is to move Chamberlain into the rotation by the end of the season.
“My point is not to overrule anybody,” Steinbrenner said. “The fact of the matter is, Joe (Girardi, the manager), Brian (Cashman, the GM) and everybody in the organization has always thought Chamberlain was a starter. And the goal has always been to get him back to that point.” ”
Hank also said that there is already a specific plan they are going to follow to get him stretched out and transitioned.
I think Hank was making these comments to prepare the fans and the media for what is coming. The organization is sticking to it’s plan.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._phil.html
Any time, Don Vito.
“I hope he can do it again. I’m not saying DFA anyone, but there should be some real competition for the 1b, LF and starting rotation spots.”
There will be that competition. I don’t have any doubt that if guys like Damon and Giambi aren’t getting it done there will be changes (don’t know about DFA’s but playing time and the roster will change).
Garcia had major shoulder surgery – this wasn’t even like TJ. He had a major repair of his labrum. That’s often a career ending injury.
Garcia is hoping to be back in June. But it’s unlikely that he’ll be able to pitch effectively this season – it’s very early for that recovery, especially in a 31 years old.
Gabbard no-hit the Sox
Hank says he wasn’t misquoted but he was misunderstood.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._phil.html
Albaladejo for Farnsworth…..Duncan for Giambi….Chamberlain in the rotation, Mussina in the pen, Ohlendorf moved to setup…..Moeller down, Rasner up…….
do it!
SJ44,
Don’t you think 22-25 innings would put Joba over his 140IP limit – considering his 6IP already plus any potential playoff innings (which not only need to be included but are generally considered “higher stress” innings.
I’m all for putting Joba into the rotation ASAP… but not at the risk of his long term health.
I am in the minority, but I haven’t panicked about Mussina, Kennedy, Hughes, or even Giambi yet. The Yanks are fine right now and can probably wait until mid-June for Joba to start his first MLB game.
Yawn…
Hmmmm. It’s what day? April 21? APRIL 21. Let’s all just chill out. It’s a 162 game season.
Stretch out everyone a bit. Kenneday and Hughes will get better. Mussina…that’s another story. Hopefully he can reach 88 when the weather gets a bit warmer.
Joba? Very interesting. I’m not sure I would panic just yet. Sure, he’s wasted as a set-up guy, but isn’t it fun to make every game 7 innings? And even 6 when Bruney et al are on? Why not wait for Humberto Sanchez or one of the other farmboys to get better?
If they can get 5 to 6 from starters other than Wang or Pettitte on a consisent basis, they have the formula. Hughes will get there. Kennedy likely will as well.
p.s. I am making an assumption that 140IP is the limit of course (based on the 30 inning rule)
Giambi, Mussina, and to a lesser degree Damon were marquee names that the Yankees had to have per strict orders from George. Damon was more of a retaliation move toward Boston. Cashman did not lobby hard for any of the 3 players. The Boss was the Boss for the moves.
Only when failing health became present did George bow to Cashman’s plan of developing from within which he had always wanted as did his mentor “Stick” Michael.
Hate damon all you want….hes a better outfielder than Matsui, one of about 3 guys that can steal bags and despite not hitting, is still getting alot of walks….Damon can still make a much larger positive impact on the yankees than Giambi or Mussina can….those two are pretty close to being dead weight.
Cashman: Joba not moving to rotation now.
http://weblogs.newsday.com/spo.....kees/blog/
As much as I’ll miss the current stadium…I really cant wait for 2009. 09 is when the new look Yankees truly takes form….
1) Beautiful new stadium
2) No Giambi
3) No Mussina
4) No Pavano
5) Maturation in Kennedy, Hughes, Chamberlain, Ohlendorf & Gonzalez
6) Potential looks at Brackman, Tabata, Sanchez
7) Potential signings of C.C. Sabathia / Mark Teixeira
This year doesnt interest me as much as the next two will.
“Hate damon all you want….hes a better outfielder than Matsui,”
Johnny Damon’s zone rating this year in left field (114 innings) – 0.895.
Hideki Matsui’s zone rating last year in left field on a very bad knee that limited his range – .886.
And how has Matsui done in left field this season in the 60 innings he’s played there – zone rating of 1.000.
60 innings isn’t a very large sample but there what you can say is that when Matsui has played in left this year he’s been generally very good defensively.
The idea that Johnny Damon is a far superior defensive player than Matsui is in left is in no way supported by the facts.
Alan,
I think Cashman’s “youth movement” began when George was still relatively healthy.
Mussina wasn’t a bad signing at all, IMO. He pitched out his contract and was an effective pitcher for most of it. He signed an extension because of how well he pitched in the last year of his big contract.
Giambi was an MVP when they signed him and maybe the Yankees should have questioned a player with his “body type” to say it nicely, but at the time, it was comparable to signing someone like David Ortiz after 2004, for example. The Yankees have likely learned their lesson with some of these huge long-term contracts as a result, but let’s not place the blame on George for these.
They knew what they were getting with Damon. At the time, I figured he would be very good for the first 2 years, decent for the 3rd year, and not so good in the 4th. You usually cannot predict injuries, though Damon should have been considered more of a risk.
Bottom line, dont blame George for these signings. You can blame him for the “win at all costs and sacrifice the farm” mentality… but the Yanks may not have won 4 championships without it. Hindsight is 20/20.
Hanka-Joba-palooza
Stark’s chat debates the merits of Joba starting vs. relieving.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/.....t_id=20303
CB you cant sit there and tell me Damon hasnt gotten to balls that would NOT have been snagged by Matsui because he has already. He has better range and speed…there’s really no dodging that.
Buchholz awesome again!
Is there a better one-two punch than Beckett and Buchholz in the majors? I don’t think so.
I suppose George can be blamed somewhat for Giambi and his mega-contract but I am sure most Yankee fans, at the time, were quite pleased with the signing. I was blind to steroids at that time and had no reason to believe that Giambi, who was hitting to all fields with power, wouldn’t be an MVP candidate for the next 4-5 seasons.
At least they didnt have to give up top prospects to get him.
Corey agreed. I don’t care what the ‘zone rating’ shows.
awwwwww look at another cute wittle Red Sox fan needing Yankees approval, how nice
ZTube
Put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer.
What is zone rating?
Corey,
I’m not telling you that.
The facts are. Zone rating is a very straight forward, useful defensive statistic, especially for outfielders.
All I’m telling you is what the facts are.
Based on their zone rating there’s not that much difference between the two defensively and Damon has a truly terrible arm.
Do I think that over the course of the season Damon would get to more fly balls? Probably.
But the real issue is Matsui. He is a much better defensive player than people think.
There’s almost no way that Damon could be so much better defensively in left that it would justify playing him over matsui given the huge differences in their bats.
Last year the top zone rating for any left fielder was .923. Say Damon even does that. If Matsui were to just play the same as he did last year defensively Matsui would still be a much better option.
For there to be any real different Matsui would have to be one of the worse left fielders in the league – an outstandingly bad left fielder. And he’s not.
But even last year Matsui was playing on a terrible knee. I’d guess his range would improve considerably this year and we’ve already seen that when he’s been out in the field.
The fact is that Matsui is a good defensive left fielder and Damon may be marginally better but not that much better.
Webb/Haren
if the rotation continues to suffer you can either trade for a pitcher, try joba in the rotation, or miss the playoffs…that is basically the 3 options we have…i say by midseason, if the bullpen continues to be pretty strong overall, put joba in the rotation, especially if 3 of the 5 guys are struggling in the rotation…there’s no way this team makes the playoffs with 2 effective starting pitchers and 3 pitchers who can get passed he 4th or 5th inning.
zone rating explanation:
http://www.baseballthinkfactor.....ne_rating/
Frank (NY): He has the stuff to be a number 1 starter – plus fastball, plus plus slider, plus curve and a working change. His ultimate long term value is in the rotation. If he fails in the rotation, he can go back to being a setup man and the future closer. The Yankees are in the midst of a youth movement so doing it now rather than later makes sense. Mike Mussina is struggling and will only get worse as the season goes on (Look at his post all star break numbers from last year). Therefore, how can you say he shouldn’t be in the rotation? It’s a no-brainer. The Yankees have had the top closer ever for the past 7 years and NOT won the world series. Having the top closer for the next decade won’t matter either if they don’t have the #1 that they have needed for the past 7 years.
BRAVO!!!
Jayson Stark: (1:09 PM ET ) I agree with the basics of your argument. I just beg to differ on some of the specifics. As a reliever, Joba doesn’t just have a plus fastball and a plus slider. He has two practically unhittable pitches. Scouts I’ve talked to don’t think he’d developed his other stuff to anywhere near that level and the point the Yankees moved him to the bullpen. So he’d be trotting that stuff out there in the big leagues in a you’d-better-win environment. So it’s not a no-brainer. It’s tougher than it seems.
George bid against himself in the Giambi negotiations. A fact known throughout the organization. It was a horrible contract (especially its length) and its come back to bite the Yankees in the butt.
Here’s a quote from Ed Price’s blog entry on Hank that is worth everyone reading:
“Its still a learning curve there. What they (Hughes and Kennedy) can’t do is start to feel pressure. Its not necessary. They’re dealing with an organization now that’s going to be extremely patient with them, because we know their talent, we know what they can do. Its just a matter of time”.
Now, really read those comments and tell me how Hank is “loose cannon” or is “lashing out”, as the ESPN.com headline said he was re: the Times story.
The guy isn’t an idiot and he’s not as volatile as his dad.
He’s saying exactly the right thing re: the young arms.
Every move he and his brother have made since they took control of the team has been the correct move. It may not always work out but the methodology behind each move has been correct. Its all you can ask for.
I think folks are so anxious to find Hank to be this big “boogyman” they can’t step back and actually listen to what he is saying.
So fess up who here is “frank”.
Where do they get these retards?
Dan, Florida: Has Joba built up the endurance the be a starter? There has to be some concern that he could hurt his arm or become another casualty to the “tommy john” list of pitchers. What are the repercussions to the Yankees if he has a season ending injury, or perhaps a career altering injury?
Yeah we are going to move Joba to the starting roation TOMORROW!! Yeah he’ll throw 8 innings.
Fools they are!!
“Joba’s staying in the bullpen right now,” The Yankee GM told Newsday in a telephone conversation this morning. “That’s where we’re at. [Putting him in the rotation is] not something that’s going to happen here early on, and [Hank] knows that. We’ve talked about it. I don’t know what set him off.”
NewsDay
CB, SJ what do I read into this statement ?
I don’t even pay attention to what Hank says anymore.
But that’s also, basically, what Hank is demanding because he’s still upset that his team doesn’t have Santana
“As a reliever, Joba doesn’t just have a plus fastball and a plus slider. He has two practically unhittable pitches. Scouts I’ve talked to don’t think he’d developed his other stuff to anywhere near that level and the point the Yankees moved him to the bullpen.”
So according to Stark the only way that Joba can move to the rotation is if he has 4 pitches that are all as good as his fast ball and slider.
So now the requirements to be a major league starter are 4 80 pitches.
No pitcher in history has had 4 pitches that good.
This makes no sense. People keep setting up these fabricated hoops Joba has to jump over in order to warrant getting placed in the rotation.
This is just nonsense. What pitcher in baseball has 4 pitches that are all as good as his best pitch? None.
Big Pooopi strikes again!
CB,
I mentioned this yesterday. Do you think Giambi would accept a demotion to aaa to work on his hitting? Or would he just prefer to pinch hit instead. He is hurting the team right now and IMO its either demoting him so Ensburg or Duncan get at bats. Or cut our loses.
In regards to Kennedy and Hughes. More so Kennedy. I heard about thier pin point control in the minors. But so far they have been falling behind on hitters and getting hurt by it. I remember hearing the same thing about Tyler Clippard last year. When he made the jump to the majors, he lost it. He wasnt the same once he went back to the minors. Can this be something that could get in these youngsters head and in turn effect them permenantly. Clippard? Ankeil? Again more so Kennedy. Because he doesnt have a killer fastball and relies on control.
that Randy Johnson made it w/ 2 pitches
I have no problem with converting Joba the dominant 8th inning pitcher (back) into a starter. I like the idea of using Ohlendorf in the 8th instead. And when Melancon comes up you use him and Ohlendorf in the 7th or 8th as needed. Those who want to keep Joba in the bullpen be damned.
Ohlendorf & Melancon may not be Joba but they sure as heck sound better than going to ‘pen in the 7th or 8th and having to rely on Farnsworth finding the plate, which he seems to be able to do in less than half his appearances. They’ll be better than most of the other guys we’ve had leading up to Mo in the last several years.
I think Phil will come around sooner than Kennedy. He’s good for 4 or 5 innings but it’s the 1 or 2 bad innings that kill him. And the offense hasn’t really lit up the score board for him yet. I also think both Phil and Ian will come around it’s just a matter of time. I wouldn’t trade either unless they’re still struggling (and terribly so) for 2 years.
I don’t see Moose getting better but nobody ever expected him to turn the clock back six years either. I’d hope Joba would replace Moose when he’s ready to start, and Kennedy can work through it. But I think what’ll happen is that they’d send Kennedy down to find his groove and Moose will stay in the rotation (at least for a few more turns) then Kennedy would come back to take Moose’s spot.
I’m glad to see Matsui hitting the ball again, I knew he’d get his hitting legs back under him once his knee got fixed. If only he could get back on his horse in the OF we’d have the Johnny Damon problem solved. Instead, we have the DH problem solved, which is still a plus. It makes Giambi more expendable and Cashman’s inevitable ‘what to do with Jason’ chat with Hank & Hal easier to bring up & more persuasive.
And as Matsui’s legs get stronger he’ll improve a little in the field, but if Gardner can handle the bat somewhat adequately you have to go with the speedster in LF. I think Matsui as primary DH & backup OF is a good option to work with.
Now it’s just Giambi and Damon (and to a lesser extent Cano,) bringing down the lineup. This time last year it was just Posada, Jeter and A-Rod hitting and everyone else was like the Bad News Bears at the plate. I think Cano will find his groove soon, he seems to be a better second-half hitter so far for some reason. But I question whether Damon and especially Giambi will be worth the wait.
I like the talk of giving Brett Gardner a shot in LF. Even if he falls a little short of typical Yanks expectations at first and hits .260, that’s still a ton better than Damon is doing.
For 1B, Ensberg & Duncan could share duties for a while, but would there even be a real 1B available via trade? Mientkaevowaievwtvowitzkowyskyvawicz would be nice to get back because he’s solid with the leather, but would the Pirates even accommodate a reasonably fair trade? Would they ask for what Minnesota wanted for Santana (kidding) over the winter? If the Pirates would trade him, could we stand four months of the blog’s whiners complaining about Mientkeie … (oh never mind) … if he ended up hitting below .270 for the rest of the season? Would it be better to see if Ensberg can rise to the occasion, let Shelley be his back up and wait for a FA at the end of the tear? That, I don’t know the answer to.
Nice try, but
Beckett/Buchholtz > Halliday/Burnett > Hernandez/Bedard > Wang/Pettitte > Webb/Haren
Andy, Minnesota: I think everyone forgets that the 1996 Yankees won partially because they had the best 1-2 in the bullpen in the league, and that is precisely what they have now. Every team in the majors would love to play 7 inning games like the Yankees do; if they are leading after 7, it’s pretty much over. Why do you take Joba out of a role where he is THE best in the majors to put him in one where he might not succeed?
Everything that’s come out of the Yankee’s today is entirely consistent.
There is no controversy here. It’s just being drummed up.
Look at that Newsday article. Look at what Wallace Matthews writes vs. what the quotes are.
The more important article was that clarification Hank Gave to Ed Price. That explains everything.
Hank didn’t mean Joba was going to be put into the rotation tomorrow.
The organization is on the same page. Doesn’t matter how some people in the media are trying to drum this into a controversy because they are wrong that Joba “must” stay in the rotation.
Hank’s statement was filled with some hyperbole. But the substance of what he was saying in entirely sound.
The baseball people are making the decisions. Look at what Hank told Ed Price.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._phil.html
Cashman’s statement is operative “RIGHT NOW”
I think it will happen when they have him lined up to start the rest of the year without breaking the innings cap.
Jayson Stark: (1:17 PM ET ) Great analogy, because it’s so true. This could be a perfectly analogous situation to Rivera-Wetteland, because Joba could be to Rivera what Rivera was to Wetteland. While they’re grooming a successor to Mariano, they’re shrinking every game along the way. I guess you and I are both idiots, Andy, because I agree with you all the way.
He has that right! He is an idiot!!
Rich (Philly): Wouldn’t it be silly to make Papelbon a starter now, when he is a top flight closer? I feel the same with Joba, he’s interning as Mariano’s set up man, as Mariano did with Wettland. Joba should slide into the closers role when Mariano is done and provide the same level of fear and intimidation to opponents trailing late in the game. That is an invaluable weapon.
Good to see there are a few sane people. I’m betting it is people who blog here.
Rich (NY): It isn’t only about winning now, but in the future as well. A great starter or a great reliever? I’m taking the starter. Papelbon was originally turned into a closer because of health concerns and ineffectiveness during his career as a starter at the major league level. If this happens with Joba, then I understand turning him into the future closer for the Yankees, but you have to at least consider him for the starting staff because he can be a number 1 starter. Assuming he would be great at both, would you rather have Santana as your closer as your starter? …I think the answer is clear. You have to, at some point in the near future, try Joba as a starter. If it doesn’t work out, you can always place him back into the bullpen.
the patience that the yankees can have with mussina ,hughes ,and kennedy is partly dependent on how well the red sox are doing. buchholz is shutting down texas today . if the red sox open up a 5-7 game lead , the pressure to get joba in a starting role increases drammatically.
i think hank was looking for a better start from a joe girardi led team to break the pattern of falling behind boston early each year and having to pay catch up all year.
buccholz is pitching today without the pressure on him that hughes and kennedy have to win each day. the red sox youth movement will go a lot easier for them if they don’t feel the weight of having to win everyday if they are comfortably in first place.
i think getting joba in the rotation as soon as possible is the move to make to keep the red sox from having to play in front without pressure. i don’t love hank , but i think he’s right in dealing with this sooner than later.
the red sox are notorious front runners. when they think they are good ,they are good. after a three game series with wang, pettitte, and joba pitching against them, they may not think they are so good. i know they left yankee stadium last week feeling very good about themselves. the yankees can’t afford for that to keep happening.
if joba lives up to is hype and potential, he could be the difference maker that makes the red sox fear the yankees again. it’s the move to make
SoS,
I don’t know what Giambi would elect to do know. I was very surprised he accepted the minor league stint last time.
The difference is that now he’s in a contract year. Giambi is literally playing for his baseball future this year so I don’t know how he will play it.
I’d guess he’s try to stay in the major leagues at all cost.
If he bombs this year then he could always take a contract somewhere next season like Ensberg did this year – a non-guaranteed spring training invite. Worse comes to worse he could accept a minor league stint next year.
If Giambi would agree to it I’d love for him to spend time in AAA getting sorted out. Don’t know if he’ll do it in a contract year.
Hank is new at this owner role – so I guess we can allow for his mistakes. But they are mistakes.
Hank in the Times
“I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now,â€
This isn’t WW III, just a gaffe. It sure looks like we need Joba in the rotation now, but it makes sense to do it later and that is what it looks like they will do. Let’s just hope the Pope’s visit keeps Joba’s tendons from fraying.
ZTube.
My hope is that you just finished the marathon this AM and oxygen is at a premium. Bucholtz is going to throw over 100 pitches just to get through the 6th inning. At this point he is barely a number 4. Yes, he has upside to grow further but he is not close to a number 2 at this point in his brief MLB career.
-dennis
Anyone listening to WFAN? (I know…why bother)
Crazy and crazier are on the case
The Stark chat is a joke. It really is.
Its Stark doing what he does best. Tweaking the Yankees and Yankee fans. Just read his last book for proof.
Here is the ONLY problem I see with Hank’s comments.
It sets off these brushfires in the media that are not needed right now.
You have the boobs at ESPN “debating” this now. That’s not good for anybody. Eight hours of idiots on ESPN whining about the Yankees is a migraine no one in management needs right now.
You leave Moose’s name out of “who you want to see starting”, and you end up dealing with his insecurities.
You know have to have Girardi and Cashman deal with these questions on a slow news day.
Its part of his learning curve as an owner.
The one piece of advice I would give Hank is this:
Your last name is “Steinbrenner”. Meaning, even if you are correct (which he is on this issue), the media wants to make you out to be a tyrant like your father. It goes with the name and the pedigree.
So, you can either waste your Monday, like you are today, clarifying comments made last night, or you can just choose not to answer the cellphone when it blinks “NY Times” or any other media outlet on the other line.
I like Hank a lot. I think he wants to do the right thing, doesn’t have nearly the ego or the inherent meanness his dad had in his heyday. I believe he truly wants what’s best for the Yankees.
However, like his young pitchers, he is also undergoing a learning curve of being an owner of the biggest sports franchise in the world. When he talks, people listen.
They may not always “hear” but, they “listen”.
He just has to remember that as he goes forward.
In the grand scheme of things, regardless of how ESPN will blow this out of proportion, its not a big deal.
Brandon, I think what you read into it is, like you, CB, myself and others, Hank wants to know why the best arm in the AL is pitching in the 8th inning! lol
For all you Girardi haters.
Torre and the dodgers are in last place at 7-11. Does that bring back some memories?
In Girardi i trust!!
it’s just FATCESSA pushing his damn opinion and Fruitloops stating he never has showed anything to be a dominant starter not in the minors or college….JESUS WHY
“If only he could get back on his horse in the OF we’d have the Johnny Damon problem solved. Instead, we have the DH problem solved, which is still a plus.”
ANSKY,
I like your analysis overall. But one point on matsui -
Matsui is not a bad defensive left fielder. He may not be that great but he’s not bad.
People keep saying this about his defense but it’s just not the case.
The numbers just don’t back up the subjective impression we have of his defense. I think he misjudges balls at times and that makes him look silly on those occasions. Those kinds of impressions stick in the mind.
But in general his range is fine and it will only get better as his knee recovers.
Barack and The Boss(Bruce)–Wrong For America
This one is for Pete to break up a slow news day.
http://link.brightcove.com/ser.....1509297894
Hank’s an idiot. I don’t see what exactly is so right in what Hank said. He came out and blatantly lied about why Joba was put in the pen and he’s trying to tell his GM and manager how to run the team (that he has to be in the rotation NOW). Joba never would have been up with the big club had there not been a need in the bullpen and then Hank would very likely have had no clue as to who Joba was. There is still the matter of the innings issue, which is why Joba is in the pen now. Obviously Hank is completely clueless about this.
Also, we get that he wanted Santana – now he’s probably all happy because he can rub Phil and Ian’s struggles in everyone’s face. We all know he’s got a man-crush on Joba and would have gladly shipped Hughes off to Minnesota had it not been for his brother and Cash (mostly his brother; without Hal to run interference, Hank would have done exactly what he wanted, no matter what Brian thought). When Joba struggles (as kids will) upon his return to the rotation, the big guy is going to be disappointed.
I’m so happy that Cash stood up to this clod – It’s not like I think that anything was going to happen (Hank is a bag of hot air and Joe and Brian aren’t going to allow their owner *oops, co-owner* to tell them how to run the team. They would leave first), but Cash basically laid it on the line. Good.
Its the Texas Rangers people. They are the worst team in the AL.
I wonder if our genius Red Sox fan felt the same way about Buchholz after his start against the Yankees the other night.
Trolls are funny. He’s had 4 starts. Two good, two bad. Now, he is the best #2 starter in the AL.
Comedy at its finest.
Brandon-I know..
I’m sitting here listening to them and just laughing at them. :p
Joba will be a starter!
When he will be a starter-I don’t know..but he will be one.
Mike and Chris are dumb. Cashman is not saying he’ll remain in the pen. He said he’ll remain “for now” in the pen. These two are trying to ignore what Cashman is really saying.
They’re also ignoring Hal here who has just as much control as Hank.
SOS–There is no way, absolutely no way, that Giambi will accept a demotion to the minors.
It won’t happen. He makes 20+ million dollars and for all the comments you see that he’s a good teammate and stuff, I do not think for a second he’s sitting in there thinking I’d be better off in Scranton than the majors to help him break his slump.
He will either keep playing, be benched or released.
He won’t be going to the minors.
He refused the assignment a few years ago when his body was shutting down from getting off juice and he could barely walk.
You think he would accept it now all of sudden?
What exactly does going to AAA do for Giambi’s career other than embarrass the guy further.
He’d rather go home than to Scranton. Forget it.
SJ44.
I agree it is the Rangers and you can see my post above. However, I would guess that TX and Baltimore will finish within 5 games of each other. You have to beat the teams you should in the AL. Especially this year. Agree?
-dennis
Betsy,
You are overreacting. Cashman isn’t “standing up” to his boss. They are all in agreement as to Joba’s role.
Its just a matter of when to do it.
Brandon,
You know better than to listen to Fatso and Fruit Loops discussing baseball.
We all “know” Joba wasn’t “dominant” as a starter in the minor leagues because that esteemed baseball expert Chris Russo says so.
Which begs the question, “How does one go from the Hawaiian League in November to the Majors in July, starting 98% of his outings, if he wasn’t dominant”?
“However, to date, there is no evidence – none – that Hank is meddling with the decision making by the baseball people.”
Wrong! The baseball people were willing to see Arod go away when he opted out, and then Hank stepped in and showered ARod with an absurd ten-year contract.
Joba should stay in the pen. He could be a good starter, but we know, we KNOW, he is a dominant reliever. Bullpen is far more important in a season in today’s game. You guys think he is gonna be the next Pedro? Peavy? Then move him. Any less isn’t worth it.
It seems like you think he’s gonna be able to throw 98 all game. His dominance come from being able to let go in those 1-2 innings he pitches. He said so himself.
But more important than this is who’s gonna replace him? We have the best bullpen in the league now. If we have a lead after 6-7 innings we’re almost assured a win. If you can guarantee that Melancon can come up and be as dominant as Joba, then move Joba. But you can’t know that. The only thing we know is that Joba is a lights out reliever.
Dennis,
I would agree you have to beat the teams you have to beat this year in the AL.
My point is, one can’t use the Texas Rangers as any barometer as to one’s pitching prowlness.
Buchholz is a good young pitcher. To decide he is now one of the best pitchers in the AL off an outing against the Rangers is just plain dumb.
Not directed toward you Dennis. Directed to the other Red Sox fan in the thread.
“You guys think he is gonna be the next Pedro? Peavy? Then move him. Any less isn’t worth it.”
That’s exactly what most people think he’ll be.
SJ44 actually the Jason Stark chat is comedy at it’s best.
Sandy Koufax and Cy Young could have been good relievers, too, but would you use them in the pen? Get real. Get Joba in the rotation.
One thing we were missing as George went south the past few years was a crazy owner who wasn’t scared to speak his mind:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04.....1pins.html
SJ just hearing fruitloops say he never showed any signs of being dominant, this a guy that had better numbers then his supposive ace Tim Lin-ce- cum. Why do I do this and listen to them in the afternoon.
Christian
He has thrown 98 in the later innings of games in the minors.
“It seems like you think he’s gonna be able to throw 98 all game.”
When he was in the minors he kept his velocity up the whole game.
Unfortunately I did turn on WFAN (now off)
Chris Russo to a caller,
“What evidence do you have that Joba was a dominant starter in the minor leagues?”
And Russo and Francesa both claim there is no evidence about Joba as a starter in the minors.
It’s just unbelievable. A complete, parallel reality they live in that has no relationship to any facts.
Two of the biggest things you look at in a minor league pitcher to try to project them into the major leagues is how many guys do they strike out and how many of their outs come via ground balls.
Miss a lot of bats and don’t let anyone lift the ball and chances are you’re going to do well in the majors – not many hard hit balls, extra base hits or home runs.
As a starting pitcher last year in the minors Joba had the highest strikeout rate in the entire minor leagues.
He struck out almost 39% of all the hitters he faces – and almost all of those hitters were faced as a starter.
That is an absurdly high strike out rate.
As a starter last year between almost 60% of his outs were on ground balls. That is ridiculous. Hitters could not get any lift on him at all.
His WHIP was 1.01. K/9 of 14. BB/9 2.8.
All of that came as a minor league starter. He threw 8 innings as a reliever last season.
His numbers last year as a starter were mind boggling.
I was at 4 of Joba’s starts last year when he was touching 99-100 in the 7th inning of his starts.
The point is, he WILL be a dominant starter.
The only people who don’t want him to start are those who have never seen him as a starter.
He will be Peavy, Pedro, Verlander, etc. He will be the ace the Yankees seek.
Watch what happens when he is put in the rotation. It will completely change the way the media views the Yankees starting staff.
To me there is no debate. This is all foolish. He is a starter. IF he fails, than you move him back. Why waste him in the pen?
SJ44.
Totally agree as I posted it earlier. We all saw what the Yankee lineup did to him one start earlier.
-dennis
I’m waiting for crazy dog to bring up that Manhattan game that he always brings up with regards to Joba. **sigh**
Ya just have to laugh at these two.
GLove,
I know Giambi turned down the suggestion to go down a couple years back. I guess the difference this time is that its the final year of his contract. One way to look at it is that because its his final year, he wants to pad his stats so he would decline the offer. But on the flip side, he would rather take the demotion. Work out his kinks or decline,thus ride the pine(no action to pad stats). Or quite possibly get FRANK THOMASED. Either way we look at it. He is hurting this team and it needs to be resolved. Sooner rather than later.
” Eight hours of idiots on ESPN whining about the Yankees is a migraine no one in management needs right now.”
last week i cancelled my insider account with them because they really do have no clue about the yankees. buster olney is about a week behind this blog at any given moment. hank is a bull in a china shop ,but maybe he did inherit in instinct to make things happen from george.
i like patience in the sense of letting hughes and kennedy develop at their own pace and take their lumps, but at the same time i don’t want to always be falling behind the red sox every year early and playing catch up.
joba has a once in a generation charisma about him. i don’t walk out of the room when he’s pitching. hughes , as good as he is, doesn’t do the same thing for me. the sooner joba gets in the rotation , the sooner the yankees can make a case for being the dominant team with the red sox.
they have no one to match up with joba. it’s time to play that card.
“Sandy Koufax and Cy Young could have been good relievers, too, but would you use them in the pen? Get real. Get Joba in the rotation.”
You’re overrating the role of a starter. In Koufax and Youngs time there wasn’t much if any of a pen. These guys completed games. Todays game is completely different. Everyone is on pitch counts. Younger guys are on innings counts. Pitchers have to be used differently.
SJ,
I actually like Hank playing/preying on Mussina’s insecurities.
I think his stubbornness and sense of entitlement is the big reason in why he is hurting this team.
Maybe if he truly knows he’s pitching for his life he might make some kind of adjustment or consent to a trade or something.
The guy pitches like he still has a fastball. I just don’t get it. I know one of the hardest things is admitting when you’ve lost it and the guy has lost it. How sad is it that we as fans get excited to see him hit 87 on the gun right now.
That’s not enough of a fastball for his pitching style to work.
Hank is right in his criticism and if he’s greasing the skids for Mussina’s exit, good.
I don’t think we need to keep trotting him out there for that 1 out of 4 starts that he pitches good because undisciplined hitters can’t lay off the slop.
I don’t see him racking up 12 wins anymore. I think 5-15 is more likely the way he’s throwing.
Once a month he’ll pitch a gem. It’s those other 5 starts a month that worries me.
“SJ just hearing fruitloops say he never showed any signs of being dominant, this a guy that had better numbers then his supposive ace Tim Lin-ce- cum. Why do I do this and listen to them in the afternoon.”
Brandon, because unbelieveably in the largest media market in the world, the only choice we have for afternoon and drive time sports talk are these numbnuts and Michael Kay, who i cant stand to listen to on the game broadcasts.
it amazes me that noone can come up with a viable option to this.
Christian rather than insult you I’ll direct you to some helpful info
Joba Chamberlain
GS is for games started
Dennis,
What happened to Gabbard? I see he was lifted after 2 innings not allowing a run. Injury?
Hey, I’m all for moving Joba if you can find me someone to get the ball to Mo. But we are stuck with Farnsworth and Hawkins. And do you really trust Bruney to be that guy?
Right now our strength is the bullpen. You move Joba out and you leave a hole. Tell me who plugs the hole.
“It seems like you think he’s gonna be able to throw 98 all game.”
In his starts last year in the minors Joba was SITTING at 96-98 in the last innings of his appearances.
He would throw 96-98 in inning one. And finish the game in inning 7 still at 96-98.
Why do people keep parroting this line from the media that he can’t hold his velocity? There is no basis for that at all.
It’s actually the exact opposite. He is one of the rare individuals who can throw 97-98 for an entire start.
Joel Zumaya could not throw in the high 90′s for a whole game.
That’s why he was shifted to the pen.
Joba sits high 90′s the entire game. He is not Zumaya – he holds his velocity like Beckett, Verlander, or Hernandez.
CB,
You are absolutely correct about the Matsui fielding situation. Matsui’s problem is when he flubs one in the field it is usually bad and almost comical in nature. Overall, Damons’ extra range may come in handy once per week, but not nearly enough to justify his continued poor offense.
Jenn; Thank you for selecting my post haha, I’m Rich (NY)…I posted a few more times continuing my points of which I think are correct, but they weren’t posted. I basically pick apart every argument. It is to the point of silly not to try Joba in the rotation this year or next year.
“What happened to Gabbard? I see he was lifted after 2 innings not allowing a run. Injury?”
– Back spasms
SOS27.
He left after 2 innings and around 45 oitches with an “undisclosed injury”…Sorry, that is all they have said about it. mI will post something if they are more descrpitive.
-dennis
I knew it had to be from soneone who posts are reads this blog. Very knowledgeable!! Unlike Stark. You need to get a chat on espn.
Dennis,
Your expectations for Buchholz are exactly on the mark. He’s a terrific talent. But the idea that a 23 year old who is on an innings cap can be a true #2, never mind one of the best #2 in baseball is absurd.
Next year Buchholz could be a true #2 but it’s way too early to put those kinds of expectations on him now.
I laughed long and hard at that question. Other people in the computer lab at school were staring at me…
Jenn: Thanks…that would be pretty sweet ay…I think at times we all feel like we can do a better job that certain people in that area of work…
…oh well.
We are talking about Joba the same way we talked about Hughes and Kennedy before the season began. Remember. This season those two were going to be dominating. Some said that Hughes could win a Cy Young this year! So now that they have (momentarily) failed us we need to find a new, irrational hope.
Joba in the rotation might work. But he is still going to have growing pains. He is still going to get spanked from time to time. He is not going to go 20 and 0. And when he loses a few, then what are we going to do? What player are we going to grasp onto and place all our irrational hopes for a winning season?
Just calm down. Let the players develop. The season is not over yet. And even if we don’t win, hopefully this will set us up for the WOrld Series next year. I would rather have finished third in 2006 and then win the world series in 2007 then finish first and still not win it all. If we take a few steps back then we might be able to win it all later.
Rich in NY – Thank you for a voice of reason in that chat of idiots.
That’s by Stark. Why are people worried about losing 3 mph off of 100? That’s still 97, and still a great fastball.
Ty,
I hear you. Matsui makes embarrassing mistakes when he flubs one but that just doesn’t happen that often. He’s fine in the field.
And it’s not as if LF is SS. Ryan Braun of all people is doing a good job in LF so far this year.
Ryan Braun – who was arguably the worst defensive player in baseball last year when he was playing 3b.
You can argue that you should stick with Damon cause he’ll turn it around with the bat.
It’s a stretch to say the Damon deserves to play because he’s so much better than Matsui defensively in LF. It’s just not the case.
I always enjoy a good baseball debate. Its fun. Often, when you debate with intelligent people, you learn something.
That said, I can always tell a Mike and The Mad Dog fan when they post on the blog. Their debates are never filled with facts. Just declarative statements. Just like their heroes on the radio.
You learn nothing. It makes for good radio but, that’s about it.
I saw Joba Chamberlain pitch all but 4 of his starts last year. In person, sitting right behind home plate with the scouts.
Those guys were laughing about how dominant he was. He was that good.
He was touching a 100 after 75 pitches in almost all of his starts from Early May on. He wasn’t even maxing out effort-wise.
His delivery stayed tight and his mechanics were solid.
After one particular start in Jupiter, FL, after he was taken out, he went to the bullpen stretched and actually RAN a little to cool down. You see that in ST, not in June, when it ocurred. That’s how strong he was after a 7 inning effort.
I’ll go one better. One scout told me last year, “forget the bullpen, I’d put him in the Yankee rotation right now”.
That was in June! That’s how impressive he was.
CB brought out the numbers I was going to post re: his starting dominance.
For Chris Russo to say, “There is no evidence anywhere he was dominant as a starter” is catagorically untrue.
In fact, its lie. The evidence is in this blog RIGHT NOW.
Somebody e-mail the clown and have him look at it.
I am continually amazed at how little both guys, in the #1 media market in America, know about baseball. Its mindboggling to me how anyone could think they are offering anything of substance to this debate.
Joba won’t pitch to a 0.42 ERA as a starter. He will though be one of the 6 best starting pitchers in the AL by this team next year if he stays healthy. He’s that good.
how do these people get thier jobs
Hey how are you getting the quote?
Another idiot on the Stark chat. What makes people think Ohlendorf will ever be a starter? He failed as a starter, that’s why he’s a reliever.
I personally felt that the Yanks could miss out on the postseason because to expect strong years from 2 pitchers who are basically rookies is a pipe dream. A season of strong development maybe, but to expect ERA’s under 3.75 is a bit much…even Lincecum, who I feel is a better pitcher than any of them, had a 4 ERA in about 150 innings last year.
Still, in the near future, Joba is a starter…if not by mid-season.
LMAO-”No body of work that he is going to be a good starting pitcher”
There is no doubt that Joba has phenomenal minor league stats. I’m fine making him a starter. But moving him out of the bullpen has consequences, namely who replaces him. Give me a good answer for that and the argument is pointless. I’ll put all my concerns about translating his minor league success to major league line-ups away and let him prove me wrong.
Tell me Melancon can bridge to Mo. Tell me Ohlendorf can bridge to Mo. Tell me John Doe can bridge to Mo. Do you really want a roller coaster set-up man (read Heillman)? We have to win the games we are leading late. Tell me how without Joba and I got no problem with him starting.
Does this guy on the Stark blog even know who he’s talking about? Who the hell are Jaba and Riviera?
thisguy, not even Lincecum is better than Joba check his stats vs Joba in baseball cube.
“Joba won’t pitch to a 0.42 ERA as a starter. He will though be one of the 6 best starting pitchers in the AL by this team next year if he stays healthy.”
This isn’t even going to matter to these talking heads.
Say Joba puts up an 2.4 ERA – they are going to say, see he was much better in the pen. His ERA is 600% higher as a starter.
That’s going to be the next phase of this unreality.
They just are not going to admit they were wrong.
It’s especially stretches credulity with Russo and his love for the Giants.
There are real arguments to be made that Lincecum should be moved to the pen because he is too small to throw 200 innings a year. (I personally completely disagree – I’d never put Lincecum in the pen unless i was forced to)
Yet it’s Joba that needs to go to the pen – the guy who has the sterotypical size for a successful power pitcher?
No matter what he does as a starter they are going to keep blabbering how he was better in the pen.
I give Pete a lot of credit on this issue – he’s one of the few NY media people that has flat out said that it makes no sense to keep him in the pen long term.
I was just listening to Mike & the Mad Dog too. I find them entertaining, but they are a bit clueless when it comes to certain things. In addition, they know nothing about the Yankees minor league system. Recently, a caller called up to talk about JB Cox, and they didn’t even know who he was.
“What makes people think Ohlendorf will ever be a starter? He failed as a starter, that’s why he’s a reliever.”
When did Ohlendorf fail as a starter?
jennifer – use
(delete the spaces)
There is almost zero downside for making the Joba transition at this point. Unlike Bucholtz, Hughes, Kennedy and Lester he has the kind of electric stuff that can make him a top of the rotation guy almost overnight. If the slim chance it does not work then Jennifer is exactly right. You put him back as you 8th inning guy and is Mo’s replacement if and when.
In an on going committment to full disclosure I hope it does not work!! But my gut tells me that it will.
-dennis
Don’t mind me..I’m just testing
LMAO-â€No body of work that he is going to be a good starting pitcherâ€
that’s it I writting on that damn blog
Let’s remember, these are the same guys who told Brian Cashman on their show a couple of years ago that, “Melky can’t play CF and isn’t an everyday player”.
Remember that great piece of American Radio?
Their show jumped the shark years ago. Its unlistenable now.
They have a great gig and make a lot of money. That’s doesn’t mean they are any good.
Keanu Reeves makes 25 million bucks per motion picture. Nobody is saying he’s a great actor.
How much somebody is paid is no indication of their knowledge in the sports and entertainment business.
These two guys embarrass themselves everytime they talk about baseball. They really do.
To those of us who know a little about the game, its funny to hear some of the comments they make about certain players. Melky is just one example. There are others.
blockquote and /blockquote contained in . Arg.
Fruit loops is where my uncle gets his inforamtion. I keep telling him he knows nothing about the Yankee farm or players. He says he does cause he played baseball.
I’m*
see how frustrated I got there
“But moving him out of the bullpen has consequences, namely who replaces him. Give me a good answer for that and the argument is pointless.”
Ross Ohlendorf will be able to be a capable set up guy as long as they don’t burn out his arm over working him as a set up guy.
Each outing Ross throws gets more and more impressive. He’s in no way conditioned to be a long man – wasn’t even stretched out in spring.
Nonetheless he’s gone out and thrown very well. And his stuff is just out right nasty. You just cannot teach the kind of natural movement he has on his fastball.
By the time Joba goes to the pen Ohlendorf will be ready. And Ohlendorf could be much better than the vast majority of set up men throwing right now.
He has better stuff than the vast majority of 8th inning guys.
But the key thing with Ohlendorf is to get him out of this long man role before they burn out his arm with these long outings and not enough rest in between.
“When did Ohlendorf fail as a starter?”
the last 2 years, he was moved to pen because he throws harder and his secondary pitch is more effective there.
(lessthen)blockquote(greaterthen) text (lessthen)blockquote(greatthen)
TKinDC – Sorry. I didn’t particularly mean he failed, but he was moved to the bullpen because he didn’t have great success as a starter.
Oh! Worked…
Rich won’t say it I will. Ross failed as a SP, he was not built for it, he has suceeded in his BP role and can be dominant in this role, but they need to get him out of this longman role.
“I’m waiting for crazy dog to bring up that Manhattan game that he always brings up with regards to Joba.”
I was thinking the same thing.
I’d say Lincecum and Joba are 1 and 1A…
Anyhow…Look, Joba is going to struggle as a starter right out of the gate as well. It happens. It is very rare that a starter that young comes in now-a-days and dominates every start.
So let’s all cool down on him being a number 1 immediately, but like I said, he should be in the rotation sooner rather than later.
sa you need to put the / before the second blockquote.
Got it!
Last year Heath Bell was by far the best set up man in all of baseball (and arguably the most valuable reliever in all of baseball).
The mets just gave heath bell away. Just gave him away.
But it’s not that unusual that some scrap heap or low level arm goes on to become a dominant set up guy.
How often has a guys like Heath Bell who is just given away gone on to immediately become baseball’s best starter?
The set up role is important. But the specialization of positions in baseball is leading the talent requirements for that role to be completely blown out of proportion.
That’s all I’m asking. I saw Ohlendorf pitch in that debacle this past Saturday at Camden Yards and he looked very impressive.
Everyone says make Joba a starter but don’t continue with who replaces him.
btw- its a better move to do testing on an older post
Aside from ability, its simple math.
Is it harder to fill 6-7 innings or 1 inning?
The issue isn’t who replaces Joba in the bullpen.
The issue is, how much better will the Yankees rotation be if its top 3 starters are Wang, Pettitte and Chamberlain?
He’s too good to be pitching 8th innings.
Also, this romanticized notion about the “good ‘ol days” with the Yankees needs a reality check.
Mo-Wetteland lasted ONE year. When given the chance to match the Rangers FA offer, which would have kept Wetteland in pinstripes, the Yankees passed and he signed with the Rangers.
They knew then how overrated the 8th inning role can be.
In the subsequent years, Mo had plenty of nights when the starters when 7 and he finished the game. The Yankees still won 3 more WS.
You need starters who can go deep into games. Without it, you aren’t winning championships.
Watching Yankees fans failing to grasp basic HTML commands is hilarious.
Cool, a second Rich. Maybe I should change my name.
and there it is the Manhattan game !
There we go-he mentioned the Manhattan game finally
(need an eye-rolling smiley)
What is the “Manhattan game” ?
-dennis
“Also, this romanticized notion about the “good ‘ol days†with the Yankees needs a reality check.”
Very true. The championship years were actually built around Stanton/ Nelson to Mo than Mo to Wettland.
The idea that you need a talent like Joba’s to fill a role that Jeff Nelson once dominated in is really hard to believe.
The equation that Jeff Nelson = Joba is hard to fathom.
“need an eye-rolling smiley”
Dennis,
In college Joba pitched against Manhattan college and had a bad start.
In NY talk radio land that proves that he can’t be a successful major league starter.
That’s the level of intelligence we’re talking about here.
Dennis – College tourney game where Joba did not pitch well-
Russo’s clarion call as to why Joba should stay in pen.
Are you in NYC? Do you know who Mike and the Maddog are?
Haha-Thank you raymagnetic.
CB.
That is classic. One bad start against the Jaspers and that is news worthy??
I am glad they didn’t follow me to my senior prom. You want to talk about an off night. Oh mama.
-dennis
You know what’s going to be funny? A year from now, we are going to hear from Francesa how “great” the Yankee rotation is with Wang, Pettitte (whom I think will return), Joba and Hughes as its Top 4 starters.
In between chugs of Diet Coke, Mike will say, “See Dog, I told you Joba would be great as a starter”.
It never fails.
Nobody captures revisionist history like Mike and the Mad Dog.
Dennis-Russo always seems to bring up that friggin Manhattan game when discussing Joba.
Joba discussion..have to bring up the Manhattan game. Never fails..
SJ – it’s not “Dog”, it’s “Dawg”
Jimmy.
I live in Savannah,GA for six months and an island off of Portland, Maine for 6 months. I grew up in MA and went to BC so I know Mike and the Mad Dog very well from being in the NE. Boston talk sports has the same kind of idiots.
Francessa make me feel smart, thin and handsome!!
They are sometimes a drug though as they are so bad I can not stop listening. It is kind of like watching Benny Hinn on the freakin Bible network…
-dennis
Chris tries to act like he knows college baseball. He just happened to see Joba pitch that game against Manhattan now he thinks he knows what he’s talking about.
He also likes to mention a lot how Joba wasn’t a first round pick.
Does he even know how the baseball draft works?
It’s time for Giambi to go. He’s done.
Jax he didn’t even see that game he read it on a press release, and no you know what on his knowledge on the baseball draft.
Dennis,
I’ll have to google Benny Hinn.
M&MD are the only game in town – shame.
Wow, .5 in Savanah .5 in Maine – sounds pretty sweet
A few things:
1. Don’t give up on Damon and Giambi yet. At least give them until mid-may to get it going.
2. CB, it’s too early in the season to evaluate fielding stats wrt Damon vs Matsui. The sample size is way too small right now. I think Matsui is underrated as a defender but at this point in both their careers Damon is probably better by a significant amount.
3. Joba will be a starter, there is no need to argue about it. Yankee management has made that decision and there is no way they will reverse it. Mike and Chris know very little about baseball, there is no point in getting worked up over what they say.
4. I agree with SJ and CB about Ohlendorf in the long role. He is being misused in that position and could be of greater value as the 7th or 8th inning setup man. The only problem is that we need a long reliever and with the roster as it is there is no room. Who should we get rid of to bring up Rasner? The only options are Ohlendorf and Bruney and we need both of those guys. We could trade Farns or Hawkins but thats not going to happen until July if at all.
This new quoting thing is more annoying that Anti, MLB and French Canadian put together.
just my 2 cents.
i’m testing too. excuse me.
even when a caller tried to explain it to them Fatcessa dismissed the whole notion, the guy was patient then was cut off for making sense !
I think I should have 2 r’s in my name. Is that right?
post of the day, right there!
Steve.
He heals people on stage…
It is absolute good theatre that people buy into it.
I work for an oil company that has assets in the northeast and southeast so I am able to go back in forth. I was in the right place at the right time.
-dennis
Brandon, what do you expect them to do to a caller, these are the guys who cut off and yell at Cashman like he’s a 12-year-old when he disagrees with them.
“I live in Savannah,GA for six months and an island off of Portland, Maine for 6 months.”
That sounds nice.
Mike: “If he’s going to be a starter then why isn’t he starting now?”
Well Mike he has a innings cap. Cashman on their own damn show told them that in ST. Cashman explained the whole thing to both of them.
What did they do with that information? Ignored it.
He always brings up the Manhattan game with Cashman, too.
What “Manhattan” game?
Olney’s take on Hank:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broa.....Id=2378529
“CB, it’s too early in the season to evaluate fielding stats wrt Damon vs Matsui. The sample size is way too small right now.”
Patrick,
The main argument I made was using Matsui’s fielding statistics from LAST year in order to address the issue of whether Matsui is so bad a defensive fielder that he has to play DH otherwise he’ll hurt the team.
This is said again and again about Matsui. That at this point in his career he is a DH. Damon on the other hand should play in LF because Matsui cannot.
Last year on a very bad knee he had a zone rating of 0.886. That was the 4th highest zone rating in all of baseball for a left fielder.
It stands to reason that with his knee repaired he’ll be better this year than last, even accounting for getting a year older.
So Matsui was not a bad defensive player last year. In fact, he was a good defensive left fielder last year on a bad wheel.
And you’re right that small sample sizes don’t make precise projections estimates, but that is also not the issue that I was addressing about this season using that data.
Citing that data, I was not talking about what WILL happen over the course of the season, I was talking about what HAS happened so far this season as brief as it’s been.
Again, many people have said based on what we’ve see SO FAR this year that Matsui is no longer a good defensive player. And conversely based on what they’ve already seen from Damon is that he’s been a very good fielder SO FAR this season.
So the question isn’t one of the precision of future projections. It’s an empirical question related to what has happened so far this season – it’s a question about what each players performance has been to date (albeit over a small number of games) rather than what they will do over the long haul.
For that question, the empirical question about what we’ve seen so far, using the statistics over these first 19 games is completely valid.
To date, over these first 19 games, there is no evidence that Matsui has been a bad defensive player. And there is also no evidence that Damon has been substantially better.
What will happen in the future is a separate question. That’s largely conjecture.
Damon will probably be better in terms of range.
But if Matsui is as good defensively as he was last year he can more than play everyday in left and not hurt this team.
And even if you project Damon to be better defensively, it’s unlikely he could be so much better in a position like left field to make up for the differences in their bats.
Sometime during a rain delay, we should live blog the White Shadow.
Awesome dish by Thorpe.
Nice box out by Coolidge.
Salami is such a grease ball.
Nice toupee, Reeves.
Arts
“You know what’s going to be funny? A year from now, we are going to hear from Francesa how “great†the Yankee rotation is”
anybody care to record Francesca now so someone can call into his show a year from now and expose him?