Game 22: Yankees at White Sox
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 23, 2008 
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YANKEES
Damon LF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Giambi 1B
Ensberg 3B
Cabrera CF
Mussina RHP
Mike Mussina against the White Sox
Javy Vazquez against the Yankees
Notes: Wow, it’s the same lineup for two days in a row. What a concept. … Giambi reports his right thumb is fine. … Jeter needs one double to tie Joe DiMaggio for fifth place in team history with 388. … Abreu is two RBI short of 1,000 for his career.
Back later with updates.
UPDATE, 6:54 p.m.: A-Rod is expected back tomorrow but Girardi said he, “would be shocked” if he played before Friday in Cleveland. … No word on when the Yankees will stop carrying three catchers. It could be through the weekend. Part of the problem is that Moeller is out of options, so if you DFA him and Posada has a setback, you’re fresh out of catchers with any experience. … NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg was in the clubhouse before the game, visiting with Girardi. He is in Chicago to receive some sort of award.
UPDATE, 9:15 p.m.: Nice effort by the Moose tonight, at least so far. Three innings, two hits, one walk.
UPDATE, 9:36 p.m.: Jeter is 0 for his last 12. … Pretty uneventful game when compared to last night, isn’t it?
UPDATE, 10:02 p.m.: It would seem that all those calls for the Yankees to get rid of Mussina and Damon last week were a bit premature. Now give Giambi a chance, too. Accomplished players didn’t get there by accident, they know what to do and what adjustments to make.
UPDATE, 11:11 p.m.: Does Ozzie Guillen have stats? He has intentionally walked Jason Giambi twice. … Meanwhile, the three doubles for Posada are a career high.
“Needs one double to tie Joe DiMaggio”
I think that would give even Jeter chills.
Any reports on Giambi’s eyes? lol
Jeter would get more chills from Marilyn Monroe.
C’mon Moose, razzle dazzle ‘em.
Yeah the asked Giambi to read a chart, it read.
M – I – E – N – T – K – I – E – W – I – C – Z
Hey, Moeller has better numbers against Vazquez than Posada or Molina, why not start him? Yeah, yeah, so 3 ABs isn’t really enough to go on.
I would like to suggest to Moose: please, please, please, be careful with Pierzynski and Dye.
I can’t stand watching Moose pitch. Its literally like punishment.
I think I recall the Yankees doing well against Vasquez. I expect a high scoring game, maybe 9-7.
just send back Gonzo we’re wasting him w/o playing him.
Gonzo played last night. What are you talking about Brandon.
Is tonight the night Cano starts to get it going? You know it’s gonna happen. Tonight is as good a time as any!
Gonzo to Ensberg at 3rd base = Phillips / Doug M. to Giambi at 1st base. Late inning defensive replacement.
“Gonzo played last night. What are you talking about Brandon.”
he fielded a groundbal, how about his bat ?
I like Matsui hitting clean up… even when ARod returns they should leave him in there when they face righties.
groundball * WTF
http://i287.photobucket.com/al.....Heater.jpg
I can’t take the Mientkiewicz talk any more.. The guy’s a good fielder, but he can’t hit for sh.
“I can’t stand watching Moose pitch. Its literally like punishment.”
It’s like watching a horror flick – you know something awful is going to happen – just not sure when.
Forget Pyricanspellenski and Dye.
Worry about Jim Thome.
Guess with Posada being back in at catcher there is no need to juggle the line-up.
“Any reports on Giambi’s eyes? lol”
Yeah – he still has that manic/vapid stare he usually has.
Hey Drew,
Did you hear the one about Mientkiewicz?
“It’s like watching a horror flick – you know something awful is going to happen – just not sure when.”
nonononono… that is Mr.Exciting aka Farnsy, he’s the real thrilla show, you just have to have your bag of popcorn and nail biting w/ him on the mound
I think Mussina should take Hanks advise and pitch left handed today. I think he’ll pick up a couple mph’s on that side. Even if he throws underhand.
Giambi says he’s fine. Why do i have a feeling that for the first time in years. He will not go on the d.l. this year? Bat under .240 and still be taking grounders at first. Just our luck i guess. Or maybe he’s been talking to Damon on how to avoid the d.l. and still play.
In Vegas, the over / under line board is lit up with takers on Mussina serving up a meatball and Giambi’s defensive play.
A separate line on Giambi hitting 2 ground balls into the shift.
rebecca,
Can we add Konerko to that list?
Farnsy is more like a Rambo movie – lots of yelling while shooting at no one in particular – when it’s over you look around at the massive carnage.
P.S. If Carlos Delgado were batting vs Mike Mussina who wins
“A separate line on Giambi hitting 2 ground balls into the shift.”
If that an over under. I take the over. 1 meatball. I say over. Hopefully its not a salami instead.
Brandon – I don’t know who wins, but I know all fans would somehow lose.
Mientkiewicz had one of the highest BAs in the AL in September. It was over .400. Yeah, yeah, streaky, extended slumps, I know, but I’ll take it.
“P.S. If Carlos Delgado were batting vs Mike Mussina who wins”
ahhh. Is that a trick question?
When are they gonna send Moeller back and bring up Duncan (or someone else)?
i figure mussina has three starts to prove he belongs. if he is bad in all of them, they have to take him out of the rotation like they did last august. the way balls were flying out of u.s cellular field last night, i’m not optimistic about his prospects.
but if the red sox could win last night with a last minute fill in triple a pitcher, maybe the yanks can survive mussina and likewise pull one out of their… hat.
In case you are wondering:
Most Doubles: (534) by Lou Gehrig, (449) by Bernie Williams, (442) by Don Mattingly, (424) by Babe Ruth, (389) by Joe DiMaggio.
Notice who is No.2
I’d take Mientkiewicz over Giambi easily. Minky brought a lame bat to the lineup, but first class defense. Giambi isn’t bringing much of anything to the table right now. Like to see his bat liven up, but I’m not holding my breath.
Vigorish Vic, I ‘ll take the under on Moose some how he gets that 2:1 strikeout ratio working, Vasquez makes it HR Derby in U.S. C. Field, I got the over I predict Giambi hits 3 balls into the shift and strikes out once tonight.
I have a feelin’ that Moose will get it done tonight. The Yanks just need to come out strong right from the start and just keep tackin’ on runs. Let’s go for 3 in a row!
Does Giambi realize that all he has to do is get 1 or 2 hits to the left side of the field, or lay down 1 or 2 bunts, and teams will be forced to no longer play the shift. And then all his “hard hit balls that are right at people” might find some holes.
I honestly dont think he realizes the reason that every ball he hits is right at somebody is because he only hits to the right side of the field, and the entire defense is over there.
Brandon,
Come to think of it. I think Mussina should pitch to Giambi in batting practice. This can accomplish one of these 2 things.
a. Giambi owns him and gets out of his funk
b. Mussina owns him,gains confidence and becomes more aggressive.
Who wins?
Dice K scratched with the flu that has been hitting the Sox..
Lester will make the start.
-dennis
“P.S. If Carlos Delgado were batting vs Mike Mussina who wins”
The terrorists.
why are teams so down on Dan Johnson, something we don’t know ? drugs ? curses out his employer ?
.249/.344/.419 ..pretty solid if you ask me
“Dice K scratched with the flu that has been hitting the Sox..”
maybe it’s some weird strategy being used vs Soscia
“Worry about Jim Thome”
for thome, mlb should make mussina wear a helmet like the third base coaches.
i ‘m always calling mussina a coward for not pitching up and in, but actually with his stuff, he’s got a lot of guts to stand 60′ 6″s from hitters like thome without body armour on.
I’ve heard that the entire Sox team–even the announcer–is violently ill with the flu. I’d say I feel bad for him, bt I have a feeling that won’t get a very warm response from you guys.
“P.S. If Carlos Delgado were batting vs Mike Mussina who winsâ€
somehow the Red Sox would win
I think Ensburg should be hitting up in the order in the sixth spot. I just saw Giambi’s avg. .120? Man i think Billy Crystal could best that.
Brandon.
No kidding. All I can picture is that damn car commercial with the brownies mixed with horse laxative….
I now picture Socsia with a big smile and a plate of brownies walking thyrough the Sox clubhouse at 3:30.
-dennis
Rebecca,
That saddest part about the whole team getting the flu is the Angels will still lay an egg against them. It just amazes me how we struggle against them and sox can do no wrong vs. the same team.
According to MLB rules, a separate glove cannot be placed in the back of a pitcher’s mound to be used in play.
Any thoughts of Mussina having an ambidextrous outing are out the window.
SOS27.
The flip side of that is Toronto for us.
I will read but jump off from posting. It is getting too close to game threads.
Have a good night.
-dennis
Dennis does not want to get caught fraternizing with the enemy.
Just win tonight Yankees.
Go Mussina (I’m expecting the worst, hoping for the best)
cheer up the Mighty Rays of Tampa are next for the Sox
be back later people.
“Any thoughts of Mussina having an ambidextrous outing are out the window.”
that red sox pitcher a while back had a glove that could be used by righties and lefties that he used to pitch an ambidextrous inning.
Randy.
Greg Harris
dennis
Didnt we sign an ambidextrous pitcher in the draft just last year?
sos – the kid from clemson. i remember that.
dennis-
yup that’s who it was. thanks.
I know its just plain torture to listen to M&MD and I get what I deserve.
Mike on the rant I just heard. Something along the lines of “1 guy on no outs 2 guys on no outs 3 guys on coming in and getting them out….you cant find guys like that out there that do that.”
Ummmm….yeah. Cause there all front of the line STARTERS!!
It’s astonishing.
The complete disregard of pure logic is just amazing. Yeah, lets take Halladay, Peavey, Santana, Berdard and so on, put them in the pen, plug there spots with the number twos, bring up guys from the minors to fill the back end and they will all do what Joba is doing. Makes total sense. Jeez. 7th and 8th inning problems solved. Thanks Francessa.
He was from Creighton and he went back to school, if I remeber correctly.
Are you referring to Pat Venditte? He’s the only ambidextrous pitcher I recall the Yankees drafting recently…but I don’t think they signed him.
Will,
It will be interesting to see what Joba does as a starter…it remains to be seen, but with his kind of stuff he has the potential to be great.
But I was wondering…in last night’s game, who would you have put in instead of Joba?
theo epstein on espn just said dice k has been scratched from his start because of the flu and jon lester is starting on three days rest.
with all the talk of the yankees protecting their young pitchers that’s interesting.
I wish I was ambidextrous. It’d help so much with knitting…
Mo
I CAN’T WAIT TO MAKE MY DEBUT FOR THE YANKEES NEXT WEEK!!
Erin Andrews = Hot Hot Hot
Finally something we can agree on.
Papelboner tell me something that I don’t already know…but thanks for reminding me and informing anyone taht doesn’t know..
Oakland signed FrankT homas. Still rather have big hurt then Giambino…..
http://bronx-bomberz.blogspot......-cali.html
So what ate the Yanks giving up to get Oswalt?
“I wish I was ambidextrous. It’d help so much with knitting…”
hank is ambidextrous, he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
just kidding. hank doesn’t bother me anymore.
Probably would take Kennedy, Horne, and Gardner
Damn, that Moeller problem is real. He’s played well enough that he might be picked up if we DFA him. If only Posada could really learn to play first, then the roster could sustain it.
Moeller is nothing special we’ll be fine with Molina and Posada behind the plater
right, creighton. whatevs.
Contreras, Dotel, now Vazquez. The White Sox are trotting out three Yankee retreads in two days. Who else have they got out there, Dooly Womack?
someone on laa just hit a homerun to left. 1-0 angels, top 1st 2 out. i dont know who it was. apparently manny just stared at the ball as it went over the monster.
Cmon guys Moeller is an a ok backup. You don’t move posada to first to make room for moeller.
They have Dotel too but he’s been around the block
Gary Matthews Jr.
Torii -double
If the ‘stros add Bourn to that deal, could be worth doing.
J Roll may have a broken ankle, may be on the shelf for 4-6 weeks
just say it can’t be. the washed up finished Damon 5-9 the done giambi showing signs, spare part matsui being steady and abreu showing signs of maybe a pretty good year. And still 140 to go, hmm, who woulda thunk.
Buddy: I’m all for the Three Amigos, but in this case, there might be something to it.
Hey –
Is there an innings cap (a la Joba) on Lester and Buckholz?
I’m not saying you move Posada to first full time, what I’m saying is, if they DFA Moeller, he will be lost. Next time either Molina or Jorge get hurt, the catching options in the system (above Charleston) are awful. I guess it’s not the end of the world though.
Oswalt is pretty dang good, he fixed a flaw in his delivery which is why he started off so badly.
I know CB thinks he is hurt but I’m not sure that’s the case.
Where’s my game?
Where is Wil Nieves??? jk
Starts in 40 mins on ESPN
And I would take that deal for Oswalt. By Yankees standards his contract isn’t that bad, considering Moose is making 11M
Well, this will be another come back win by Boston.
And you can tattoo that on your collective forehead now!
Is there any truth to the Oswalt rumor?
Considering CC will want a huge deal, Oswalt is a bargain.
This thread so far reminds me of an old joke:
Q: If Giambi and Mussina decided to see who could swim out the farthest into the ocean before drowning, who would win?
A: Yankee fans.
That’s mean. I don’t endorse it. I’m still holding out hope for both of them.
Not sure supposedly Gammons brought it up on Baseball Tonight yesterday. Unless it’s just a scheme by Red Sox Nation to get our hopes up…
What Oswalt rumor.
Let’s not get too crazy about Chad Moeller. He’s done a nice job for a week.
That said, the sooner they can stop carrying 3 catchers, the better the roster will be.
Right now, the messed up roster is a huge problem. Hopefully, that is fixed by the weekend.
Pretty tough to put out the same lineup every day when there are lots of injuries early on. Posada, Molina, Jeter, Giambi, Rodriguez, Betemit, Cabrera, Duncan have all missed time with injury or suspension and it’s only April 23!! And thats just the position players.
I know there are some people that are down on the roster as it is now (SJ was talking about it extensively today) but I think in the near future it will round into shape, especially now that the injuries are starting to let up.
Supposedly Gammons was talking Oswalt to New York…
Id take Oswalt over C.C……..
Then again, Id take Oswalt in a trade and a signing of CC in the offseason….
C.C. Sabathia, Roy Oswalt, Chien-Ming Wang, Andy Pettitte, Joba Chamberlain….that should be our 5 next year…..hughes setup
youkillis is out (sore back), varitek is out, lowell is still out, becket misses start, dice k misses start, lester on three days rest. you’d think the angels could win a game tonight.
SJ: A couple people mention who they’d trade for Roy Oswalt, and suddenly it’s a credible trade rumor…
Moeller’s been excellent so far; that said, there’s probably a good reason the Nationals released him in favor of Wil Nieves.
From the Pre-game – Joe says he’s going to carry 3 catchers at least through the weekend
Does anyone know who the Angel radio guys are?
They better hope they don’t have a collision in the outfield.
Shoot i’d think about giving up kennedy and gardner for you there Roy, you’re pretty good.
Looks like SJ and I are on the same page haha.
My ideal roster (not including pitchers) would be:
Damon, Jeter, Abreu, Rodriguez, Matsui, Posada, Cano, Giambi, Cabrera, Molina, Duncan, Gonzalez, Ensberg. Then in middle to end of May re-evaluate and look hard at what value Giambi, Duncan and Gonzalez are bringing to the team and consider moving them around.
The above roster is good but I still think it needs a better fourth outfielder. As it is Matsui is the only guy that can fill in at the corners and Damon can fill in at CF. That’s pretty poor if you ask me. Later on in the season I’d consider moving one of the corner players (Duncan, Ensberg, Giambi) off the team and calling up Brett Gardner. If Giambi can start hitting I really do believe him and either Duncan or Ensberg can be a successful platoon at 1B.
I’m not even going to discuss the roster wrt pitching because it will be in a state of constant flux all year long.
Let’s go Kenny Rogers (aka Lefty Mussina), give up more runs!
I highly doubt Oswault will be traded and even if he were the price would probably be Hughes, Kennedy, position prospect.
Never mind Gammons and his rumors already. What I believe is that he needs to rid himself of those yellow stumps in his yap …. pronto.
The Yankees aren’t going to trade Hughes, but I could see them trading Kennedy…if just to stop Michael Kay with the Generation Tre thing.
I don’t give Giambi until Mid-May to find it. I still think they need a first baseman pronto. At least someone who is an upgrade defensively. Whether Giambi hits or not (and that’s still a hugh question mark right now), they need a glove at first.
Roy Oswalt is a guy I deal a couple of kids to acquire. We have no idea if the Astros would do it. However, he’s a guy you dip into the system’s to get if he is on the market.
Imagine for a moment, Wang, Pettitte, Oswalt, Hughes and Chamberlain in your rotation? That makes my mouth water.
Either that or its the pizza that just got delivered to me house!
Oswalt is nasty, career ERA+ of 140…K/9 has declined for the last four seasons though.
Has everyone lost there minds ??? Chad Moeller, if you saw that guy play all year you would be ready to bring Will Nieves back.. .idiots
Austin Romine and Jairo Heredia placed on the DL by Charleston today. Romine has a lower back injury and Heredia an undisclosed injury.
Damn, I’ll miss both those guys this weekend. Looks like Montero will catch all the games this weekend.
I’m not really sure why the Astros would deal Oswalt. The could be a contender in a couple of years. Why get rid of your ace.
Oswalt has given up 7 HR already this season.
Bummer about Jairo…he was starting to look like a phenom…hopefully it is nothing too serious.
Kenny Rogers getting hammered tonite. It’s close to time for him to know when to fold ‘em.
If you are the Astros, the pros for getting rid of Oswalt:
Making more money than Drayton McLane wants to pay.
He’s 31 and by the time you are contending again, he may be a bit past his prime.
He’s a small guy. Lots of teams feel smallish power pitchers don’t have long careers.
He’s a bit of a quirky guy. He has talked about retiring early and going to his farm in Mississippi. Perhaps the Astros think he would do it and want to get something for him before he pulls the plug.
Cons for getting rid of him:
He’s still a very good pitcher and, as the Yankees know, its tough to find arms as good as Oswalt’s in the marketplace.
He’s not making stupid money. Especially when compared to guys like Barry Zito.
If you fill other weaknesses on your team, you can compete earlier than expected with a guy like Oswalt at the front of your rotation.
SJ: Heh, that rotation might make my mouth water more than a dog’s!
However, Oswalt is the only really recognizable name on the Astros’ staff (either that or I’m not as familiar with the NL as I thought) so it would likely take more than we’re willing to pay to get him.
Then again, if the Mets got Santana for Phillip Humber…
He may be getting hammered but, they are playing the Rangers.
Its now 5-3 and Texas is about to blow its 4th 5 run lead already this season.
They are, far and away, the worst team in the AL.
If you can get Oswalt you do it. True ace, no question.
Who would you part with?
What happened with Dougie?
By the way, that Rangers pitcher is pitching like he’s Phil Hughes.
Something along the lines of Kennedy/Horne/some other dudes?
On the pre-game they said that Girardi has told Mussina he has to pitch inside. It will be interesting to see if he does. I hope he does better against White Sox than Red Sox.
ackkkkkkkk… another night of Hawk the horrible.
And I’m fresh out of booze and red hot pokers.
“I don’t give Giambi until Mid-May to find it. I still think they need a first baseman pronto. At least someone who is an upgrade defensively. Whether Giambi hits or not (and that’s still a hugh question mark right now), they need a glove at first.”
Weren’t you saying last week that we should give the team until memorial day before making a judgement?
Look, even if you do want a better glove at first which is fine, you have to see what kind of offense Giambi is going to provide. He has had very bad results thus far but he needs more at-bats to get going. Give him until mid-may and if he is still terrible at the plate and in the field I’ll agree with you.
I am not too high on Shelley’s ability to field at first but I think Ensberg could get the job done. Third base is a much more difficult position to field and while Ensberg wasn’t anything special at third, he should be more than adequate at first. If Giambi gets his bat heated up I think a platoon of Ensberg and Giambi would be very successful.
SJ, what are your thoughts, do you want M’alphabet back?
angel how many shots did you do last night?
Geez – tie score in Detroit, how can Texas be that bad?
I had to stop at 5 unfortunately. Showing up at work with a hangover would have been a drag.
If you can get Oswalt you do it. True ace, no question.
Who would you part with?
That’s a good question, he isn’t as valuable as Santana but he also doesn’t cost as much. Kennedy’s value has taken a bit of a hit after his bad start this year and Horne is injured. If the Astros want to trade him they will probably ask for Hughes, Kennedy and 1 or 2 more prospects. For Oswault I would part with anybody but Hughes, Chamberlain, Tabata, Jackson, Cano, Wang, and maybe Montero.
Gah, my parents are driving me crazy.
(/end rant)
“Kenny Rogers getting hammered tonite. It’s close to time for him to know when to fold‘em.”
someone should start up a new senior league for players like rogers.
it would also help the yankees figuring out what to do with mussina and giambi.
Phil Hughes just got knocked out in Detroit.
You can be patient with the team and give certain guys time to find their mojo.
You still need a first baseman Patrick.
The odds of Jason Giambi being able to play 140 games of quality baseball at first base are about as long as Mike Mussina winning 20 games this year.
I know folks think he is going to hit. While I don’t think he is going to hit .120 all year, I don’t see him being enough of an offensive force to keep him at first.
Remember, DH is not available to him this year. Matsui is the DH and he is a better hitter than Giambi.
Its first base or bust (in terms of PT) for Giambi. Right now, he’s on the bust side of the ledger.
I’m all for finding a veteran glove at first. Minky, Hatteberg, somebody who can field the position. I’m not looking for an all star. I’m looking for a role player. Something the Yankees need more of on the roster, IMO.
Who would I trade for Oswalt?
You give the Astros a list of 10 players and let them pick 3 from the list.
Guys like McCutcheon, Kennedy, Horne, Chase Wright and JB Cox would be on the list.
Guys like Heredia, Melancon and Sanchez would not.
Brett Gardner? I wouldn’t deal him right now so, he wouldn’t be on the list.
Roy Oswalt per mlb4u.com
Contract:
signed 2-year deal worth 16.9M on 2/10/05- he will make 5.9M in 2005 and 11M in 2006- + he can earn award bonuses: 500K for Cy Young, 350K for finishing 2nd in Cy Young voting and 250K for a 3rd place finish- + later signed 5-year EXTENSION worth $73M thru 2011 season on 8/29/06- + he receives salaries of $13M each year in 2007 and 2008, $14M in 2009, $15M in 2010 and $16M in 2011- + he receives a complete NO-TRADE clause- + the deal includes a Team Option for 2012 worth $16M or a $2M buyout- + Oswalt has the right to opt out of the option if it is exercised, but he receives a much smaller buyout- + he will donate $100K each year during the life of the contract to the Astros in Action foundation
Agent: Bob Garber, Barry Meister
Does it annoy anyone else that Jose and Javy both left the Yankees and did well?
*snarls* at the good guys.
“On the pre-game they said that Girardi has told Mussina he has to pitch inside. It will be interesting to see if he does. ”
it’s not just inside. low and in doesn’t mean anything. up and in is what giradi wants.
this is going to be interesting. i’ve been waiting years to have a manager tell mussina he has to go up and in.
mussina has so many pitches that he can throw for strikes that he could do well if he does what girardi says. if he could get hitters off the plate, it would open up the outside of the plate and give him some room to locate his fastball.
Maybe a little, I’m finding it more annoying that they happen to now be “good guys”.
Deep breath. Here we go, Moose.
Mussina time..oh boy
http://tinyurl.com/create.php
not sure if this was posted, but Betemit is on the block, Pitt rumored to be interested
woops, wrong link… http://tinyurl.com/3muy3l
Is it really that easy to just start going up and in, when you haven’t your whole career though?
“I’m all for finding a veteran glove at first. Minky, Hatteberg, somebody who can field the position. I’m not looking for an all star. I’m looking for a role player. Something the Yankees need more of on the roster, IMO.”
I agree the Yankees need more “role players” as you put it. We came out of Spring training with a bench of guys that all have the same function – hitting. Now we have Gonzalez who is an excellent fielder, a pretty good contact hitter and can drop a bunt when needed or even pinch run for a really slow guy.
I think at some point this year we will have need for a true fourth outfielder; Brett Gardner comes to mind. He can play excellent defense at all 3 OF positions, he can pinch run and steal bases and he’s a pretty decent singles/doubles hitter.
My problem is that we don’t have room on the roster for a true defensive first baseman. That is, unless you DFA Giambi which will NEVER happen. I would actually be in favor of trying Ensberg at first for the majority of the time. I think his skills will translate to being at least average at first. His hitting skills are excellent and given regular playing time I think he could be a huge asset.
I’d be very happy with a bench of Gardner, Molina, Gonzalez with Ensberg and Giambi sharing time at first.
How sweet would it be if we could trade Wilson!
Damn that stunk!
Crappy way to lose a no-hitter.
easy inning for moose.
Cone says:
Thome was way out in front of that changeup.
Thome, a lefty, check swung and grounded the ball down the third base line. I think there are a few laws of physics that say Thome could not have been out in front of that pitch
well there goes the no-no
nice outing by Moose! bet there’s a sigh of relief, hopefully it can last until the 7th.
Get some bench, good guys.
*channeling Hawk*
Thome shows Giambi how it’s done.
haha Wil Nieves is 2 for 2 against Santana
Tra:
If Thome had done it on purpose, yeah…even Giambi might “oops” one down the left field line once in a while
gary matthews jr hit another home run over the monster. 4-2 angels, 5th inning.
angel-
no it’s not , but shilling did it two years ago and it helped him morph into a successful finesse pitcher.
ironically the more control a pitcher has the more he can safely go up and in. mussina with his control rally shouldn’t worry about hitting people.
he could do it if he chose to and, i think, be successful.
Tra
I thought the same thing.
Here come the Jorge haters.
That was a great shot of Damon and Jeter watching the play. Thanks YES.
Matsui shouldn’t have been on base anyway.
Has the Yes Network been hacked? because Michael Kay and the game just studdered and they showed Jeet and Damon in the bench when Posada was batting
Looked like they lose the feed for a minute.
Memo to Jason lay a bunt down.
Yeah, it just sounds like it might have been something that maybe was needed to be done with him a couple of years ago. I can’t imagine it would be easy, although I agree it would probably help him, maybe more than he thinks it will. I’m not down on him at all, I was just wondering if its going to be something thats easier said than done for him at this point in career. I guess we’ll see.
hopefully our bats are frozen tonite
Jennifer
No way. He’ll pull it into the shift instead. He will not let their defensive alignment take him away from what he does best!
Ok, that was sarcasm
“How sweet would it be if we could trade Wilson!”
So sweet but I doubt anyone would want him
Oh Giambi Time
what will he do..
It’s frustrating to watch Vazquez and Contreras pitch well for Chicago. Contreras of course won a WS title in 2005 and pitched exceptional all year, even against Boston/NY. And take a look at Javier’s 2007 statistics:
216 I/P; 213 strikeouts to only 50 walks; 3.74 ERA and 1.14 WHIP…
Two glaring examples of pitchers who cannot make it int he NYC spotlight
Walks to a scuffling Cano and a hideous Giambi. Lets go Morgan! Make em pay!
Patrick work on the street is the pirates are interested in him.
Man, Vasquez got lucky on that one! A foot higher and that takes his head off!
And a hit off the pitcher. Hit him in the chest. Go Melk man!!
On a positive note, the Yankees will have taken 18 games off their 81 game road schedule before the month is completed.
“Patrick work on the street is the pirates are interested in him.”
That’s good news, hopefully $$man can work out a deal. And hopefully Melky works a walk right now.
There IS an announcer in the majors worse than John Sterling…Hawk Harrelson. Ugh.
Still having computer issues. So I’m here to say GO YANKEES!
GO ANGELS!!!
I trust Moose.
I trust the Yankee hitters.
I trust Girardi.
I trust whomever comes in for relief!
I am a diehard believer in the Yankee way.
There in spirit and also cursing the S-X.
John. How is that possible?
Yeah Melky!
Lucky for Melky. He swung on two ball-fours.
Good grief, these White Sox announcers are just unprofessional. Their use of bad guys/good guys is not endearing, its just embarrassing. Just when Sterlings homerism makes me occasionally cringe, I need to remember how truly bad it could really be!
i’m loving this top of the 2nd
What a shock, Boston somehow tied it up. Grrrrr.
Thank you, Melky.
wow. let’s see what johnny does!
“sacks are packed for the bad guys”
*cringes*
Good job Melky
jennifer:
It is shocking, but true – Hawk has a website demanding his canning. It is actually pretty funny.
Johnny, you were not supposed to strike out there.
trisha,
You are a true fan.
aw shucks. bad guys 1 – good guys 0.
Jennifer
I’m watching the White Sox feed on InDemand…he’s really bad. Catch phrases galore…and a big homer.
Sterling is absolutely awful too…
New drinking game. We’ll make it a shot for every time they say bad guys, and good guys.
And just to make it so people aren’t falling over drunk by the third inning, mix in a shot of water every 2 shots.
Heh! The way this game is going, I’ll be out of the game and paralytic by the third inning.
Ok, I can’t resist, I’m switching over to check out the Hawk for an inning.
Don’t say you weren’t warned in advance, Nick. lol.
Wow what is with the feed tonight? They keep showing shots, they never show. It keeps freezing as well.
Oh man, the reminiscing about 1998…
If only I had been older than 12 and actually able to appreciate it before October!
Boooo….YES feed
What the heck is going on with the feed?
What the hell is wrong with YES? I’m having an epileptic seizure over here.
Ok, I got a good them/us, that’s something. Still waiting for good guys/bad guys.
Its especially scary how he refers to the White Sox as “us”.
Someone better tell him he’s not a player anymore.
anyone else having trouble with gameday audio?
Aren’t broadcasters supposed to at least pretend to be objective?
come on Mussina
He usually says “good guys up next” when its the end of a “bad guys” inning.
Rebecca,
No
Apparently not in White Sox land.
Kevin et al with YES problems.
Why not switch on ESPN. You can listen to Joe Morgan make things up on the fly. The most frustrating man on television has still got it.
Wes, I was just about to ask the same thing, I can’t get Gameday Audio for the Yankees or any other game right now. I’m stuck with GameCast.
Anybody watching on YES HD? It keeps freezing.
I would love to switch to ESPN, but thanks to the lovely blackout rules, I am stuck without any access to this game.
Morgan paquetero!
That half inning illustrates why its so infuriating to watch Moose pitch.
He has 2 outs, nobody on and 1-2 on Quentin. He kept going away, away and away. He ends up walking him because he won’t pitch inside. One pitch on the inner half finishes Quentin yet Moose won’t do it.
Up comes Crede. Gets out in front 0-2. Then, away, away, and away again and before you know it, its 3-2.
The only pitch in the sequence he throws inside is a curveball at 3-2 and what does Crede do with it? A weak hack and popout to Cano to end the inning.
Why he won’t listen Girardi and Eiland and go inside more mystifies me.
He could be so much more effective by just changing his approach a bit.
Its amazing how stubborn he is on this issue.
I’m watching regular YES and it keeps freezing too.
Bronx Liaison – ESPN is blacked out here in NY for the game. Stuck with a freezing YES
“Swish is there… Nick on the spot….”
Nice.
The “can’t pitch in the NY spotlight” narrative for Javy Vazquez has always struck me as more than a little disingenuous (as well as…well, wrong), and I honestly think that if he wasn’t run out after one season, he probably would have ultimately put up similar numbers for the Yankees.
After all, look at Josh Beckett in 2006 – he had a terrible first year in the AL after pitching several full seasons in the NL, but after he was given time to adjust, he put up a spectacular season. And Javy Vazquez was great for the first half of 2004, so he certainly flashed the potential to be a top-of-the rotation starter in New York.
If not for ESPN i’d be stuck with Comcast Chicago and those good guys are really bad.
Phoenix
Well said, they never gave him the time to adjust to the AL.
He is a very good pitcher and should still be a Yankee
Minor league report….
Charleston is ahead 4-0 in the 7th. Two hits and 2 RBI for Carmen Angelini tonight. Jesus Montero is 1-3 with an RBI.
Six excellent innings for Zach McAllister. His ERA is down to 1-13.
come on Robbie
“that’s popped up… stay in here [he pleads]…. it does…”
So was Robbie this slumpy last year when he was slumping? I can’t rememember. It’s so painful to watch, even on Gameday.
That Montero looks like our catcher of the future!
Speaking of Moose and not pitching inside, there was a very interesting read over at the Hardball Times using PITCH/fx data concerning fastball velocity and the effectiveness of high-velocity (95+ MPH) versus low-velocity (>90 MPH) fastballs in different parts of the strike zone.
(http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....stball-be/)
Unsurprisingly, the study showed that low-velocity fastballs inside (on the inner third of the plate) were pounded, while fastballs outside (on the outer third of the plate) were effective irrespective of velocity (that is to say, velocity did not seem to make a significant difference regarding effectiveness on the outer half of the plate).
Moose is a pretty smart guy, and as he has lost velocity, he might be on to something re: staying outside, at least as a fundamental principle. On the other hand, if a hitter knows he’s only ever going to get pitches outside (and let’s be honest, that’s probably what the scouting report on Moose is right now), then I can see the utility of Moose at least flashing pitches inside just to give hitters something else to think about.
Ugh, not a good at-bat by Robbie. Did you guys hear the whining and begging in Hawk’s voice, “Stay in here”.
Boy, he sure loves Javy, huh?
Does Cano have any idea when to swing the bat and when to just take a pitch??! It looks like he tries to swing at every single pitch thrown no matter where it is. Pathetic at bat..
Moose might actually pitch 3 innings..WOW!!
Thanks to whomever mentioned ESPN. Joe Morgan is prefferable to Ken Harrelson. I forgot to remember it was on ESPN also.
‘Till I was reminded…then I remembered to remember.
Your welcome!
Moose looks like he has the good stuff tonight.
mussina( and posada) tried to go up and in on swisher and the next pitch was away for a fly ball. much more economical than always away.
Phoenix..
I wanted the Yankees to get Vazquez for years before they actually pulled the trigger, so I am on-board with the idea that he could have overcome an abysmal second-half.
However, from what we saw, he looked like he simply could not handle the pressurized crucible that is New York when it came to pressure starts down the stretch.
Sure, he could have recovered had he been given a second chance, but I am merely going on what we all saw while he was here. He did not deliver in the biggest spots and that is simple fact, so I find it hard for you to refute that.
Fun fact from NJ.com – not sure if it has already been posted here:
This is the last time this will be true…
by Ed Price Wednesday April 23, 2008, 7:42 PM
But Mike Mussina has more career starts in the big leagues than the rest of the Yankees rotation put together.
Tonight will be Mussina’s 507th career start. The four other pitchers — Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy — have combined for 505 major-league starts.
get to work bats
That fun fact will still be true if the Yanks trade Andy Pettitte for Doug Mientkiewicz.
Meant to say I heart BlackOut Rules, and wow does Giambi look AWFUL at the plate.
“Moose is a pretty smart guy, and as he has lost velocity, he might be on to something re: staying outside, at least as a fundamental principle”
no offense, but if that study made no distinction between up and in and down and in, it’s worthless.
an up and in fastball is a totally different pitch than down and in fastball.
mussina would get killed if he went down and in on a regular basis. that’s not at all what giradi is talking about.
mussina did try to go up and in with swisher. so it’s a start.
DFA Giambi.
Ensberg should be the everyday 1B
vasquez just threw a perfect up and in fastball to ensberg. he struck him out on breaking ball two pitches later. the up and in set it up.
Pete, I have a feeling you just jinxed Moose.
And from what I saw from while Vazquez was here, was a pitcher who had gotten figured out by the league after a half-season’s worth of performance data for AL teams and their scouts to analyze, and a pitcher who didn’t readjust fast enough during the second half.
Short of going inside Vazquez’s head, I cannot see how anyone can make a truly definitive judgment that his troubles came from not being up to the pressure. After all, for *any* player to be successful at any level in professional baseball requires a significant deal of concentration. I will not doubt that for certain reasons, certain cities–such as New York–might increase the level of concentration necessary to be successful, but with so many variables (including standard deviations from the mean due to sample sizes and the like) at work, I have never been convinced by the idea that certain “failures” could be attributed to not being able to handle the NY pressure.
For example, a lot of people point to post-season ineffectiveness as a sure-fire way of determining a baseball player’s mental toughness, yet we find that for a majority of cases, the more at-bats a hitter (or innings a pitcher) accumulates in post-season play, the closer it gets to that player’s career averages. Furthermore, it seems to me that fatigue after a long season would be a better fit than a player suddenly letting the pressure get to him, once again noting that to have any semblance of a career (successful or not) in professional baseball mandates you have the skills necessary to handle those types of pressurized situations.
But I digress. I won’t deny that it’s possible one reason (of a potentially great many) why Javy Vazquez had such a bad second half could have been the pressure getting to him, but I still don’t think that’s a compelling enough narrative, especially after a successful first half in New York. In any event, I think we could all stand a lot to gain from lightening up on our players anyway (this goes for all Yankee fans everywhere, and not directed towards anyone in particular here), since I fail to see the satisfaction derived from running players out of town by unnecessarily increasing the pressure placed on them. This does not mean I’m validating the theory that heightened expectations in NY causes some players–like Vazquez–to fail, but a simple admission that since it’s not outside the realm of possibility, one might as well not tempt the fates.
Uh, guys, are you watching the same Moose I am?
Nice quick inning for Moose.
I still think he can go 13-10 with a 4.5. And if so, the Yanks would be thrilled.
Yikes. Nice inning for the bad guys. Sorry, I can’t get over that. It’s hilarious.
WTF, I went to the bathroom and I come back and I missed the inning.
Actor Gary Cooper looked better than Giambi at bat and in the field when he played Lou Gehrig in “Pride of the Yankees”.
wow
good job so far Mussina
SJ44..
One guy I wish I could see in person is Wilkins De La Rosa. Converted outfielder southpaw with a fastball that can reach the high 90s. His k/9 has been ridiculous so far this season, but the question will be his secondary pitches and their development when he moves up to A+ and beyond where you can’t just rely on an overpowering fastball
randy, look at the study before you start to make judgments like that (and the author of the study, was the first to admit it was not a definitive study and that small sample size caveats applied).
That said, yes, the study *did* distinguish from down-and-in (which was universally a bad place to pitch, regardless of fastball velocity, although higher velocities performed better there) and up-and-in, but regardless of *where* the pitch was in, low-velocity pitches performed worse than low-velocity pitches on the other half of the plate (up-and-in was definitely the closest to performing as well as down/mid/up-and-away pitches, to be sure, but away was still more effective).
Again, I’m not saying Moose should *never* pitch inside, since it makes a certain deal of sense from a game-theoretic perspective to mix his strategies and drop some pitches inside so as not to be predictable.
Posting the link to the study (again): http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....stball-be/
I want to point out, since it seems to get lost, that Mike Mussina almost always has a quality start. He goes 6 innings with 3 ER almost every time out there. Yes, sometimes he has a rough outing. Yes, good teams usually hit him.
But the man goes out there and he can have a great game. 4 innings, 2 hits, no runs allowed. If he can get through six and mix things up for the 3rd time around the order, we’ll be in great shape.
Look for the offense to put up a few runs in the top of the 5th. It’s time.
Time to give Moose some run support. Reward that six pitch inning Johnny.
Angels go deep off Craig Hansen. That right there is a PERFECT example of a prime pitching prospect that gets rushed, shell shocked, and ultimately ruined.
If Moose keeps pitching like he is tonight, I think we should let him continue as a righty. Not a lefty like Jamie Moyer.
Wow, so we’ve come to praise the Moose, not to bury him?
Inspiring.
good time for damon to run i think
I agree re: De La Rosa. He’s definitely an interesting guy.
He pitched another scoreless inning tonight. 20 K’s in 11 innings and a 1.54 ERA. The walks are high (8) but, he is still only 23 years old.
Looking forward to seeing him pitch this weekend.
Tip of the cap to Mussina tonight. Hitting spots, and very crafty-veteranish in his approach.
I’m not very optimistic on the days it’s his turn to take the hill, though.
that De La Rosa is lights out in Charleston
2 GO and 1 K in 1 IP, 1.54 ERA
Montero threw out 2 runners tonight.
SJ bring me back reports on him.
Did Jeter spend the off day at a tanning salon?
WHO THE HECK IS THIS GUY AND WHEN THEY TRADED MOOSE FOR HIM ?!?!?
Can of corns? I don’t think so.
Good stuff Phoenix.
In theory I agree with many of your points. Of course you can point to an ERA against Boston of nearly 6.00 as an example or his 8.10 ERA at Fenway that year, but it was more of a gut feeling when I watched him pitch to pitch. I am not saying it is fact, and I was one of the minority who thought we should have hung onto Vazquez, but it’s tough to deny at the same.
Your argument certainly makes sense, especially the portion in which you discuss some big city’s fans and their strange satisfaction in filleting a pro player’s confidence. LaTroy Hawkins is a recent example of that type of idiotic thinking – sorry, Paul O’Neil was a great Yankee and not Mantle, Murcer, Munson, etc.
Nick-
nice one.
Damon needs to try and steal 2nd more when he gets on base. Alot of times Jeter either hits into DPs or does nothing. They have too many runners on with no one out that never move a base.
OR DID THEY TRADE ANTI-MOOSE FOR HIM?
Montero seems to be a very good player. Although, I seem to think that he’ll be moved to first base because he’s HUGE for a catcher. I also think that they like Romine more as a defensive prospect.
Big surprise, Red SUX Take the lead.
I bet when they ask Mussina how he felt tonight in his post-game interview he will say “like Jamie Moyer”
Meanwhile, in the real world, the Angels turn two to end the 8th, still 5-4 Los Angeles of Anaheim of Orange County.
Trade Matsui, right Pete?
I’ll take the bloop double.
HIP HIP JORGE
Jorge – nice!
The bats seem to be waking up.
cc its 5-4 Angels…?
Nick in SF
Only against the Yankees.
I am curious to see how the Yankees will play against the Angels. Hopefully we turn it around this year, and they no longer own us.
And it’s now 12-6 Detroit. When do we play Texas?!?!!?
Yeah Po!!!
3-0 good guys
Nice 3 pitch AB by robbie.
Of course we play Detroit when they are on fire.:(
SJ for some reason they took De La Rosa out after 1 inning, they usually use him for 2 IP..I guess they saw enough ?
This is one of those moments where Moose needs to pitch well. He tends to give runs back when we have a big inning and a scoreless one here would be HUGE.
He’s got the stuff tonight, let’s see if he can do it. I’m inclined to think he will.
On Montero’s homerun last night:
Montero’s homerun was to dead center, over the 30 foot wall at the 410 mark. It was estimated to be 430 ft. The Riverdogs announcer said it was the furthest homer that he’s seen in his 4 yrs.
Moose may hit the wall real quick
yeh I heard Jesus’s shot was tape measure, damn for an 18 yr. old
I have a feeling Cano will be getting another day off real soon. What is he averaging 2 pitches per plate appearance?!!
Guys according to Joe Morgan maybe Hank should insult Mussina before every start to motivate him
Robbie did draw a walk tonight, but he has generally looked lost at the plate this year.
Solo shot is not a big deal.
There was a little Jamie Moyer in that pitch.
Moose can blow this yet. Get the bullpen up now.
Crede is having some comeback year huh?
I like seeing Moose do well for a change but realistically I think he’ll do ‘well’ about half the time on average maybe sliiiightly better than half.
That’s not a complaint or a knock on him. Just thinking what to realistically expect from him. Some days he’ll look like it’s time to retire, some days he’ll look like this for 5 innings and if he’s really on, maybe 6.
I don’t expect him to have 3 straight games like this though. If he could stay good enough compete with every other team’s 4th/5th best starter for a while (not that Vazques is a 4/5 guy) that’s fine. Chamberlain or Hughes stepping up to at least the level of ‘league average 3rd best’ is what we really need to hope for this season, not the resurrection of vintage Moose.
Thanks for the jinx, Pete.
Well you knew a homerun off Moose was coming eventually…A meatball right down the middle. Has Moose EVER not given up a run right after the Yanks scored?!!
that pitch was scary. Missed it. Center cut.
Angels got one insurance run, 6-4 going to the bottom of the 9th. Cash, Ellsbury, Pedroyer due up.
The plate just got extremely small..
Joe Morgan should be forced to listen to each of his telecasts afterwards. It’s only fair.
Walk-off win for Sux? Make your bets now.
Anybody else still upset about using Joba for 2 yesterday? 8th inning was unecassary use. We are forced to see Hawkins/Farnsy/or Bruney is a close game unless we score some runs.
6 – 4 Angels
I’m pretty sure that was a knuckle-curve. Kay called it a changeup. I could be wrong…but it looked like a knuckle-curve to me.
2 more outs to go
wow – a swing and miss is a rarity these days!
Nice, Moose.
Meanwhile, it’s not 18-6 Detroit — I think they’re trying to get to that 1000 runs tonight.
And, cc, weak stuff. 2 outs, none on in Boston.
U cant use joba everyday Hawk will be fine for the 8th he has been pitching well
Pete, I think Jeter is 0 for his last 8, not 12. He got that bases clearing double in his last AB on Sunday, and was 0-5 last night and 0-3 tonight.
SD John – Maybe he wanted to give Joba an extra inning, begin to lengthen his outings, nudge him towards starts? I don’t know … just guessing. Could also be resting other guys in the ‘pen who had to work extra before.
CaptainsCorner, sure he hasn’t, just not in recent memory.
Whoa Giambi beat the shift.
Good thing Giambi just got the ball where 3 fielders are not.
Detroit’s up 18-6
Game over in Boston, 6-4 final.
Medium Papi left on deck.
Ratboy grounds out Angels win
I’m watching GameDay … that’s 5 innings, 1 run. Can anybody watching on the tube see if there’s anyone up in the pen?
Mussina should be on a hitter by hitter basis in the next inning. The bullpen should be ready to go at any time.
Melkyyyyyyyyy
damn he is tatooing the ball
Minor league report…..
Charleston wins 4-0 to go to 17-3 on the season.
Trenton wins 8-5. David Robertson, whom the Thunder is now using as their closer, got his second save of the year.
He was a setup man until recently. His numbers in AA so far are as eye popping as they were in A ball last year.
14 innings, 0.64 ERA 21 K’s.
Last year, his first in pro ball, he was 8-3 with an 0.96 ERA. In 84 innings, he had 113 K’s and only 32 walks.
In his short pro career, hitters are only batting .160 against him. That’s domination.
He’s a bit on the small side but has nasty, nasty stuff.
Its going to be interesting to watch his progression. He just turned 23 and I think he has a future as a setup guy in the Bronx.
Finally some insurance. I’d like a little more though.
Damon does what he has to do
Nice, Damon! That just gave the Moose a longer leash.
Can we has some moar runz pleez?
Nick: When do we get some Texas on the menu?
Bronx Liason: That’s fair. I remember talking to a fellow Yankee fan of mine that year who also played a good deal of baseball up to (and I think through) college who coached at my old high school, and he mentioned that every time he saw Vazquez pitch in the second half (especially down the stretch), he thought there was something mechanically off with him. It’s possible (if there was something mechanically wrong with Vazquez) that he consciously or unconsciously altered his mechanics due to pressure, to be sure.
In any event, I’m sorry the Yankees gave Vazquez up for two seasons of an aging Randy Johnson (even if the Yankees since received Ohlendorf and the former Attorney General for him), and I think it’s a good lesson vis-a-vis patience with your players, young or old.
I’ve read a lot of your stuff on the internet (including what you post at your current blog), and I have a lot of respect for your opinions; I do think a lot of people too easily latch onto the “supposed impossibility of playing in New York due to pressure” theory without thinking it through, so it’s something I do feel pretty strongly about. But one would think that–especially if one seriously believed in the theory–that would make fans more patient with their team and players in order to give them the best possible chance for success (one reason why I so detested Yankee fans for booing A-Rod throughout 2006), but alas…
Jeter broke out of his mini slump.
I think it’s safe to say that Damon is seeing the ball better and is finally on. He looks great and is hitting the ball the other way and just dropping balls into gaps.
CWS announcers called Melky’s hit “lucky”… boy are they optimistic… or dumb.
Good to see a few hits strung together one after another. Haven’t seen that in awhile.
Dear Ozzy,
Thanks for leaving him in when he is clearly gassed
Sincerely,
The Yankees.
Broken open. Now let’s see if we can win this game without blowing out much of the pen. Hughes starting tomorrow.
I knew the Tigers would explode eventually (18 runs so far tonight), and I expect Miguel Cabrera to explode too, before his contract expires. It’ll be Twinkie induced, no doubt.
25 years old, and already too fat to play third base. Jeeeesh.
Guys that is 100 runs on the year for the Yanks. Only 900 more to go!
There’s Jeter. He is now 1 for his last 1.
Good, solid hits tonight all around. Even the bad ones are falling in.
Now this is fun
SJ D-Rob is dominating w/o a gun fastball he lives low 90′s it’s weird how he gets those groundouts
Hopefully a 5 run lead for the Moose can last threw the next inning.
Any updates on Scranton? how bout Mark Melancon?
nice to see the guys backing up moose tonight!
NJ in Tampa
Ain’t that the truth. He was clearly gassed, but he kept thinking that he’d get out of it.
Oh crap, they did score 18.
predicting double here
I don’t think any particular pitcher has been overused like in years past with (nice RBI double Damon) Torre with Proctor or Sturtze. If we have guys like Hawkins and Farnsy and don’t feel comfortable using them with a 4-5 run lead then why are they on the roster? Moot point, we are scoring some runs. If it was a close game, we would all be very nervous seeing anyone not named Rivera or Chamberlain trotting out to the mound though. I for one think Ohlendorf needs to start throwing those innings. I think the 2 innings was less about stretching him out than we think. He will have to go to AAA for 3-5 starts to be stretched out before he starts in MLB.
SJ44,
Yeah I’m curious about Robertson as well. The only slight flag is the walks, but hopefully that’s because his stuff is that good.
Moose is throwing the ball ok tonight. Let’s not get carried away. Six HR’s in 25 innings is a pretty alarming number.
At this point in his career, he is what he is. Yes, its nice to see him throw 5 good innings so far tonight.
But, he still has to work more on the inner half of the plate. Against better hitting teams, he won’t get away with as many pitches middle/away that he has gotten away with so far tonight.
At least he’s tried to go in more the last 2 innings. He doesn’t have to do it all the time. Just enough to keep hitters honest.
Tigs score 11 in one inning!
Heh the Charleston team could probably beat some of the ML teams.
Bobby you bored ?
With a guy like Robertson, how long could he take to reach the Bronx? I doubt anywhere near as quickly as Joba or Phil, but those are pretty impressive numbers even if a small sample size. On the other hand, Joba and Phil were being groomed as starters.
Is that the most in an inning?
Johnny Damon now has a 850 OPS on the year, despite the fact that he according to all of you has looked “awful,” “done” and “worthless.” It goes to show you guys that evaluating a player takes longer than 60 AB. Wait till somebody sucks after 120-150 ABs before you go out calling to DFA a former all-star in favor of some marginally good prospect like Brett Gardner.
SDJohn, don’t forget about Quantrill and Gordon when talking about the overuse of past Yankees relievers by Torre.
“I don’t think any particular pitcher has been overused like in years past ”
Ross Ohlendorf has thrown 14 innings in the first 20 games. That’s a pace to throw 114 innings over the year.
He was not even stretched out in spring training.
He’s being overused in a role he was not physically prepared to do.
I understand that the starting pitching has not thrown enough innings but irregardless Ohlendorf is being over used very badly. And being over used to throw low leverage innings.
Pitching woes in Beansville …..
http://pressherald.mainetoday......25942.html
Isn’t Ohlendorf being stretched out by doing the long man role? Isn’t that one way to stretch out Joba?
That’s a bushism.
Melancon didn’t pitch tonight.
Brandon, its all about late movement with Robertson. You have late movement on your pitches, you can be effective.
The kid is so dominating that, despite his height (lots of teams don’t like under 6 foot pitchers), you have to take notice.
From the first time I saw him pitch, I thought he had a future as a setup man in the Bronx. He can really pitch and he’s coming fast.
Wouldn’t surprise me if he finishes the year in AAA. Right now, he’s dominating the Eastern League and that’s very impressive.
Moose please continue to get people out…This is why Joba shouldn’t of pitched the 8th inning yesterday..then he would be fresh for today. Who knows how long he would be or how effective he would be today.
Irregardless is not a word.
Sorry, had to do it.
Anyway, let’s hope Mussina keeps on rolling into the better part of the 7th and then we can get Hawkins in there.
I have to say i’ll take 6 innings of 1 run ball from jam…. mike mussina any day of the week.
Cox got 2 grounds and a K tonight..tonight was his first back to back relief work
At this point why would you even think of using Joba in this game?
CB, I posted the same last night. Ross is being wasted as a setup man, that’s why I’m in favor of him throwing in close games in innings 7-8 versus Farnsy or Bruney. We were talking about using Joba for 2 innings (when this game was 3-1 and)and wishing he wasn’t used for 2 last night in a wasted 8th inning. That’s all. But Girardi is mis-using Ohlendorf, both to much, and wrong role no doubt.
So is Pete Abe going to drop “Hank Steinbrenner is a genius” on us tonight?
Any chance Cox is up with the team at some point this year?
Do we push Moose another inning if the score stays the same?
wow..the Texas Rangers are horrible
Moose is shutting up all the critics tonight. Starting with Hank. Hank will be thrilled to be shut up in this case.
6 good innings for Moose. He has done a nice job tonight at mixing speeds and has a good pitch count.
Good point Jennifer. I predict we see the former number 21 tonight.
Of course I meant long man in the 1st sentence of my last post. Sorry
Following the game on MLB gameday, it’s nice to see a few “swinging strikes” in Mussina’s starts. You take what you can get from him at this point.
Moose pitched good tonight…6 IP, 1 ER…now let’s hope the bullpen can hold the lead.
“Isn’t Ohlendorf being stretched out by doing the long man role? Isn’t that one way to stretch out Joba?”
No. You don’t stretch out a pitcher by just having them throw more innings than they are accustomed to. It should be something built up gradually and done systematically.
damn, Pinstripe Alley is down; anyone else from there?
So let me ask guys, who besides us here on the blog has said that the Yanks are talking with Houston? Or that Roy Oswalt is even available? lol I havent seen it anywhere else and I dont wanna start thinking Cash is chatting up Ed Wade about a Kennedy Horne and McCutchen for Roy deal…
We don’t play Tex till August, right in time for Texas to get hot and for the team to fry on the field.
the rumors of my demise have been “somewhat” exagerrated
Ansky,
Robertson could be in the Yankees bullpen by next season. That is, if he continues to be this dominating.
If he stays like this, he will probably finish the year in Scranton.
They will put him on the 40 man roster in the off-season. With the turnover they will have this off-season (Farnsworth, Hawkins, perhaps Bruney), there will be spots open in the ‘pen and he will be given every chance to win a job, IMO.
That is, if he’s not traded in a deal for a top end starter like Oswalt, for example.
Yanks put up 13 in one inning against Tampa Bay in 2006. Remind me how far they got in the playoffs that year.
You can’t use Joba as a long man to stretch him out. He needs to go down to AAA and do it correctly.
the fallen phoenix-
thanks for the extra info. i’ll check out your study, but if you want to understand why the up and in fastball is so effective, get a broom stick , put something on the floor that represents the width of the plate.
choke up on the broom stick so it’s bat length.
notice that you can reach a low inside pitch the sweet spot is maybe a foot in front of the plate.
now imagine the high inside pitch. the sweet spot of broom stick will have to go a few feet further in front of the plate than it does on the low inside pitch to meet the ball.
this two feet is huge. imagine if the same pitcher could throw some pitches two feet closer to the plate.( low and away and up and in is about a three foot difference)
just using the physics of this difference of where the ball needs to be hit, a pitcher can locate the same speed fastball up and in and low and away and totally change the timing
of a hitter.
a hitter can’t look both up and in and low and away for fastballs because there is a totally different timing involved. if he looks low and away he’ll be late on up and in.
if he looks up and in , he’ll be early on the low and away.
john farrell , the red sox pitching coach uses this as his main thing to teach his pitchers. he preaches locating the fastball.
low and in and low and away isn’t that different as far as how far in front of the plate they have to be hit so it doesn’t upset the timing that much.
a pitcher can really mess with the timing of a hitter just by throwing up and in fastballs and low and away fastballs.
if he adds even one off speed pitch to these two fastballs he can create all kinds of deception to throw the hitter’s timing off.
mussina has so much command and so much intelligence he could make hitters crazy if he used the difference of up and in and low and away.
Thanks Phoenix, I appreciate that.
Your points are certainly well thought out and make complete sense, and it is altogether possible Vazquez had mechanical issues – he has a very arm dominated delivery. I too wish he had been allotted a second chance instead being for Randy Johnson. He could have become a dominant #2.
A good stat on Vazquez: aside from Randy Johnson, he has the most strikeouts of any pitcher since 2000.
nice Po
Yes, it is possible to use the long man role to stretch out a pitcher in season. The problem is the Yankees have not been systematic about it.
When they go to stretch out Joba…it will be interesting to see how they do it. I hope they don’t waste any of his innings in AAA ball.
“At this point why would you even think of using Joba in this game?”
Well with the way Hawkins, Bruney, Farns have pitched and you can never trust Moose no matter how he is pitching…you never know if this will be a save situation.
Eh… I think Robbie could have run that out?
IBB for Giambi? Boggles my mind.
wow walking giambi…and not because hes hitting.
Four fingers to Giambi! He’s back!
Wow what a diss, walking Giambi who hasn’t done anything to get to Morgan. Yes they are setting up the dp. But color me shocked.
IBB Giambi?
Yankees are starting to pick up the offense, now that A-Rod is out. DFA him. He doesn’t know how to win, doesn’t play the game the right way.
So, has Moose been pitching up and in tonight??
I’m listening to the game on the radio
Huh. Guess they didn’t get the memo that Giambi is an automatic out?
Moose might be a little feisty in the post game tonight. Must see TV.
Do you guys think maybe Detroit is trying to make up for the first ten games or something?
Respect the Giambino!!!
Who wants Moose to pitch in the 7th?
Who wants Hawkins?
Okay they look a little smart here. But the Melk man can still do damage.
It seems like Ensberg strikes out in 99% of his at bats.
Funny Dave Robertson has been brought up. I agree he has nasty stuff.. During today’s ESPN chat, John Manuel of BA said McCutchen and Robertson are his two favorites to help fill in when Joba moves to the rotation. I agree with both of those players – and only if Melancon is back to 100% form would he able to step in.
Well he is just like Wilson than.
Someone please clean Jorge’s helmet. I wonder if it is the same filthy one from last year.
Boston has pitching problems. Forced to call up rookie RHP Justin Masterson at AA.
Wish I could have been here all night because this would have been a great night to hang out!
But a few things: remember when we talked about hitting the ball on the screws being the precursor to hits dropping in? It’s Baseball 101 but definitely worth remembering when we have hitting droughts. I also had mentioned the other day that Girardi said he expected Moose to have a great outing tonight and someone asked what else we would expect Girardi to say? I agreed but then said that it was also possible that Girardi was on to something that our untrained baseball eyes might not have seen. Well, score one for Girardi!
Finally, I have had computer issues most of the night and had to go out and buy a new power source but had both games on the radio. I’m not sure about Girardi but it seems he has done some good things. If so, again, first they hit on the screws and then the balls drop in. Hey Laura if you’re here – the old saying it today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday! It seems there was no need to worry about Giambi. Right?
Let the Yankee organization worry. We can sit back and relax.
And oh yeah. Nice game S_X!
GO YANKEES!!!!!
Guillen looked like a genius there, huh ?…Oh, well…we are still ahead, right ? ;-(
Giambino pleeeease they were setting up the DP
I meant I wasn’t sure about Giambi’s night, not Girardi’s.
“Boston has pitching problems. Forced to call up rookie RHP Justin Masterson at AA.”
so early wow
So, tonight, we’ve heard the announcers laud Nolan Ryan for saying that young pitchers should throw 120-130 pitches in a start, AND that the White Sox’s lack of “small ball” will doom them to a lot of low-scoring games. What??? We KNOW that, when you play for one run, you usually GET one run. An OBP and SLG based offense — like the one the ChiSox have had this year so far — will score in bunches. They’ll be prone to big nights and ice-cold nights. That is exactly NOT what O’Neill is saying will happen.
“thanks for the extra info. i’ll check out your study, ”
That study that Fallen Phoenix referred to is far from perfect in many ways. That said it’s one of the first in what is going to be a series of landmark studies that are going change baseball in enormous ways.
Pitch F/X data (which that study is an analysis of)is going to fundamentally change the way people understand the game. It’s going to create a completely different way of understanding pitching and the match ups between hitters and pitchers.
Whoa that almost dropped in.
Maybe Moose can play first base too?
is it too soon to say the Pope has something to do with us potentially winning 3 straight and Mussina being lights out?
Nice smile on Moose after the popup.
randy:
Very good points, and great food for thought. I do want to clarify one thing I realized I did not mention (nor make clear at all) when I brought up the PITCH f/x inside/outside data, however.
I’m not saying Moose should tell Eiland and Girardi to shove it and never pitch inside; even from a pure game theoretic framework (without even considering whether certain types of inside pitches can be effective or how it could affect a hitter’s timing) it makes a lot of sense to mix pitches and confuse batters that way.
What I *am* saying is that, as a general rule, pitching outside does seem more effective than pitching inside, especially if you are working with relatively low-velocity (at or below 90 MPH fastballs). So yes, Moose is certainly erring by going away constantly *all the time*, but what he’s doing *is* defensible and makes sense. It’s not as if he’s stubbornly doing something (pitching away) that is definitively wrong, although it is arguable (and I would agree) that by following the philosophy of pitching away to such an extreme is wrong.
I suppose I was just trying to temper the “Mike Mussina should pitch inside” cry, since while I think he should certainly pitch inside more often, I think he should intelligently pick his spots to pitch inside, and not make such a radical shift so as to exclusively pitch inside as he is now almost exclusively pitching outside.
That said, again, great stuff to think about randy–some of which I knew at some level, but it’s certainly great to have all that information explicitly in front of you.
And the old Posada-Moose saw…don’t we also know that Posada has caught more of Moose’s starts in the last two-three years than anyone else?
It’s like they’re not doing their homework.
Randy l –
Maybe the conversation was with Posada!
Now’s the time for the same people that INSIST that the only role for Joba is in the rotation to lament the fact that there is no one in the bullpen that can get outs.
Can you admit that the decision is not THAT much of a slam dunk?
BTW he should start but the decision is not a no-brainer.
Another meatball…
I think the Moose was just tense in the long leadup to the Pennsylvania primary. Now that it’s finally over, the Moose is loose.
A little too loose on that last pitch, alas. Tighten up, Moose!
keep that fool on the mound tonight
2 runs on 2 HRs…I’m ok with that
Moose, you’ve had a great game, but this might be the time we need to get the bullpen up a little bit.
Mussina sure does give up a lot of homeruns. But at least they are solo shots tonight and the Yanks have a nice lead.
JMJ, I dont know what is lamest… The Hawk HR call, or the HR fireworks display when they are down by 4 runs.
I agree completely about David Robertson. I honestly think he could come up now and be more effective reliever than Bruney, Hawkins or Farnsworth.
Venting time: slam dunk!
an instant replay arguement …
Well that was interesting.
Posada stopped him from taking Mike out.
If only Moose could pitch like this every time.
Posada talked Girardi out of pulling Moose, interesting.
101 pitches and 66 for strikes. Moose pitched a heck of a game only giving up two solo shots.
That was funny. Posada calling off Girardi from the pitching change.
Nice effort by Moose tonight.
girardi looked angry.
Have you guys ever seen anything like that before? I don’t think I ever have-it’ll be interesting to hear Joe on the post game…
Nick, how long did you stick it out with Hawk & Co? Did you get to hear a good guys/bad guys?
We couldn’t see what was being said that stupid security guy blocked the camera view.
Joe wasn’t mad, they were all laughing afterwards.
Yes, Moose waved off Torre once to keep pitching. As Joe was starting to climb the steps, Moose pointed at Torre and told him to stay put.
“Mussina sure does give up a lot of homeruns”
Not really. He’s consistently been around 1 – 1.1 per nine. Last year, in his worst season, he only gave up .83 per nine.
So…you comment and reality just don’t match up.
I love how everyone likes to say Joba should be in the bullpen because he’s great there.
Yeah, he’s great there. But not for even half a season. People say it’s not guaranteed that he will be a great starter. There is NO guarantee at all that he will be as good as Mariano or even be able to fill his shoes, either.
He has not closed and has not shown that he can close. He has pitched a few bullpen innings in the setup role and has been great.
His entire baseball career has had him as a starter. Less than half a season is how long he’s been a reliever.
I’m going to side with starter.
Angel, I heard one “bad guys” when the score was still 1-0 and I heard an “us/them” but I couldn’t take it for long, so if there were any “he gone’s, I missed ‘em.
It has to be a good lesson for IPK to watch Moose work his way through a line-up like this with much less stuff than he has.
If you don’t put people on base by nibbling, 1 run HR’s are no big deal.
He says “he gone” when a bad guy is struck out. He also says “get some bench” too.
Sadly, they are making Joe Morgan tolerable – and thats saying something. His HR call before was fairly amusing, in a lame kind of way.
Follow up to story :
Masterson to start Thursday
According to the Portland Press-Herald, Justin Masterson will be the Red Sox’ starter at Fenway Park tomorrow afternoon at Fenway Park.
This from the Press-Herald’s story:
“I’m just real excited,†Masterson said on the phone as he packed. “It’s hard to put into words.
“I just want to put together a quality performance tomorrow.â€
Masterson has dominated early in the season in his four starts. He’s 1-0 with a 0.95 ERA. In 19 innings, he’s allowed 2 runs, 14 hits and five walks. He has struck out 23.
Westerner99,
Yes I remember that…but what about something exactly like what we just saw…
It is interesting to hear Coney talking about Jorge and Mussina.
I hope we see more of this Mussina this season. Not fond of his evil twin-bad Mussina
Captain Posada stepped up for the BP
Wow it wasn’t even close with Bobby swinging.
Please let this be a good Hawkins inning.
I watched Kay on YES, Hawk on Comcast and Morgan on ESPN. I feel violated.
“Masterson has dominated early in the season in his four starts. He’s 1-0 with a 0.95 ERA. In 19 innings, he’s allowed 2 runs, 14 hits and five walks. He has struck out 23.”
too early for him to start, I mean didn’t they learn from Hanson…never mind shut up
whozat – Thank you for correcting me. It seemed like he was giving up a lot with the 2 tonight and the ones to Manny last week.
Hawkins with a 4 run lead. Anyone feel comfortable with that?
Hawkins on the mound, hey Paul O’Neill, anything you want to clear up?
THEY ARE BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THAT DAMN #21
Corey it’s not too soon for me!
True story. When the S_X were trying to break the curse of the Babe, they did everything from having the Babe’s daughter in fenway to selling copies of his contract, to trying to pull up the Babe’s piano from a lake (something like that). And you know that every year Yankee fans would troop to his grave and leave cans of his favorite beer, his favorite cigars, etc. Well when I was reading about all of the things the S_X were trying, the one that struck me the most – and also bothered me the most – was when I read they actually had a priest come and bless fenway. I thought it was outrageous that they actually resorted to that – but it also gave me great pause. You have to know that I am a really good catholic girl.
When the S_X won, I just couldn’t get the thought of the priest blessing the green crap box out of my mind.
So now you ask if anyone thinks it’s too early to be thinking about the Pope and Yankee wins? Boy have you come to the right place!!! I’ve had that in my mind from the time I read that he was coming to the US and would be saying mass in the Stadium.
I of course have no difficulty with anyone who thinks that’s total bunk, because our beliefs are our own. But I take great comfort in the fact that such a holy man said mass in our great cathedral!
Thank you Pope Benedict!
STOP BRINGING UP THE GOD DAMN NUMBER
Wow, Cone and Kay just went after him. Hilarious. But O’Neill just doesn’t want to say the right thing.
Why do they ALWAYS have to bring up the number thing with O’Neil??!! It is not like he is a HOF and they forgot to retire his number. It is getting alittle old already. They talk about that as much as they do how much he likes to eat.
wtf is with Cone and Kay bringing this up again. O’Neill clearly didn’t want to talk about it. I don’t like the way he’s handled this but they need to just leave it alone.
Hawk, c’mon man, let’s get outs before giving up the four run lead, okay?
Hawkins with a 4-run lead?
Yeah I feel more than comfortable with that.
Now I have to leave my PC and go back into the room where the telvision and my moribund laptop are and watch the rest of the game.
GO YANKEES! GREAT game, Mike Mussina.
hip hip hawkins! wait no no nooooo… a walk!
I wish they’d just drop it already.
GRRRR.. the White Sox nimrods are SO getting the whole O’Neill story wrong.
I totally resent that all yankee fans have been tarred with the same brush as those few booing morons.
MICHAEL HAS NO FRIENDS IN THE USA HE HAS TO GO TO MORROCO
LaTroy Hawkins? Big signing?
“Can you admit that the decision is not THAT much of a slam dunk?”
Last night Seattle best Baltimore 4-2. Felix Hernandez pitched 7 innings and gave up 2 runs, while striking out 7. His fastball was sitting 94-96, slider was touching 90, and he was mixing in his curve at 84. (hmmm… what pitcher do we know that has similar stuff….) Didn’t even use a 4th pitch. Just dominant.
The awful Arthur Rhodes pitched the 8th inning and got through the Orioles 2-5 hitters out in order.
I suppose the 1 inning Rhodes threw was more important than the 7 Hernandez threw?
I also suppose that Rhodes could have thrown 7 innings of 2 run ball because that is just easier and less important than the magical 8th inning?
I suppose Seattle (who is going for broke and trying to win the division this year) should take Hernandez out of the rotation and put him in the pen because Rhodes is simply terrible and has blown up in one big moment after another throughout his career?
Must have been a conspiracy.. the White Sox tools started in on it at the same time – I guess because Hawkins is out there. But they got it so wrong. I had to mute them before I threw the remote at the TV.
No…..no….NOOOOOOOO! We’re cooked!
Please don’t ruin Moose’s good start…
cb-
what is” Pitch F/X data”?
fallen phoenix
i glanced at the link you gave , but it’ll take me a while to read it .
from what i saw, it looks like it measured what the runs scored were for a location. it doesn’t say what would happen if the pitcher only threw away or only threw inside. it looks like it measures the runs allowed when hitters are looking both inside and outside and then the pitch is, say, outside .
the high rate of success would change when hitters only need to look away.
so i don’t see how the conclusion would be that away is better.
but i’ll look closer when i get a chance.
i think the most complete understanding comes when the how and why ( which is more what i’m saying) is combined with the facts and data( more what you are saying).
No wait! Yay! I love girardi… that is unless traber stinks up the joint.
It’s pretty annoying that Cone referred to Hawkins as a “big signing” this offseason. No he wasn’t. He was a complementary piece meant to pitch in the middle innings.
Still, that was a poor outing.
LaTroy Hawkins doing his best Kyle Farnsworth impression again.
Gosh leave Hawkins alonee!
Do I have to call Chris Crocker? LOL
Before anyone tries to use this inning to illustrate how crucial it is to keep Joba in the bullpen, please consider that if no one in the bullpen besides Joba can be used with a 4-run lead in the 8th, then the Yanks will either blow a lot of leads or overuse Joba and blow out his arm.
Can anyone pitch the 7th inning with a 4 run lead?!! They can’t pitch Olendorf because he has to be saved incase Hughes can’t get out of the 2nd inning tomorrow. Someone on this team has to be able to get 3 out!!
Yeah we don’t need Joba in the pen.WE got a good Set-Up men not SEt-Up man in the pen.We can use Latroy,Bruney,Traber,And Fransworth to get 6 outs in every game to Mo.
And they will all at least walk two batters a guy.
DFA Traber.
oh jesus
Get Traber and Giambi off this team pls, thx.
This thing is about to fall apart…gotta go to MO!
Giambi’s glove does it again ….
It’s Joba time, Joe.
Brilliant, being stuck with Giambi on defense late in a game. That play needs to be made.
Giamsucko!
Our bullpen can’t be any worst than the money Mets.
come on bring Mo-Jo
i blame that on giambi not traber….he just basically plopped his big body down…..awfully done
Gotta go to Mo?
Who will be the next worthless lefty specialist the Yankees will sign?
Wow, MoBoy, you couldn’t have timed that any better.
Bring in Mo.
Now.
You can’t put the game in Traber’s hands like that. The man can’t do his only job on the team.
Get him OUT of here and bring up Rasner. This is just ridiculous. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Traber is a complete waste of a roster spot. Sure, Farnsworth is much worse.
But Traber has a lack of stuff PLUS a lack of getting hitters out. At least Farnsy has the stuff.
Well, I guess if Mo’s the only guy in the ‘pen that can get outs…
GIAMBI LOOKED LIKE FREE WILLY
No Joba? Mo for 5? What’s the dillio?
If Girardi didn’t use Joba for 2 innings yesterday, he could have used him tonight. This is where that wasted inning (top
is a real killer.
Wow –
Traber? He gone.
Cash, do us a favor and PLEASE release Traber and Hawkins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This Giambi at 1st base thing is REALLY not working!!! When is Girardi going to realize that??!! Get Traber off this team..He is dreadful. Amazing that Mo has to be used with what was a 4 run lead. Girardi is asking too much of him..5 outs!!
Why is Jason Giambi still playing first base?
What is the explanation? Why? That was just not a hard ball to stop for even an average defensive firstbaseman.
He has no range at all.
And Traber is doing nothing to get out left handers.
In a perfect world Joba could be a starter…but with group in the bullpen…you’ve gotta be kidding me!
Gotta love our ‘pen. Hawkins always giving up a hit, a lefty specialist who can’t get lefty outs. Absolutely pathetic.
why is Giambi still in the game? Ensberg might not have experience at first but he is still a defensive upgrade and AG showed he can play third last night. That is on Giambi and Girardi.
I meant with this group of incompetents in the bullpen!!!!
Ugh. Is it possible to have negative range at 1B?. I’m pretty sure Giambi has it. Good job Traber, way to do your one and only job. Girardi, Cashman 210 million, get yourself a lefty out of the pen and a 1B.
Girardi is just a dumb nut about the bullpen. Why oh why do the Yanks need a “lefty” specialist. Unfreakin believable..
Got to think that is a great move keeping Duncan in AAA and keeping Giambi… Can’t think of a better move.
doreen-
you may be right that the talk was with also posada. i have heard from someone in the know that he does not give wang enough up and in targets . wang has been advised to on his own just throw up and in to stop hitters from cheating up on him to get the sinker before it sinks.
Seems like Girardi doesn’t trust anyone but Joba or Mo. Joba pitched 1 2/3 (I think) last night and is probably unavailable so it’s Mo for 5 outs.
Giambi at 1st is going to drive me insane..more insane by the end of the year. A statue has more mobility.
Holy crap-I changed the channel and come back to this?
Many of us were perplexed as to why Girardi insisted on keeping Joba in the game to pitch the 8th with a 5 run lead.
This is why.
Unbeievable that Mo has to come in for a 5 out save in April.
Girardi is managing this pen in a very similar way to what Torre was doing last year.
A decent first baseman would have had that, and Traber would have done his job, wouldn’t he?
I guess one way to look at this is, this is a pretty sophisticated blog when it has trolls whose only purpose is to recycle worn arguments about where Joba should be all year.
Can we end this already? I have to be in Philly for meetings at 9 and want to watch the post game!
CB
Late in games now, based on the current roster, you must put Gonzalez in at third and Ensberg at first for defense. Even if Ensberg is questionable at first base as well.
I don’t blame Joe
why would you go to garbage pitchers who can’t throw one scoreless inning? what! we have to sign Ray King to get the job done? C’mon!
for those gun crazy guys… who complain about hughes. Rivera throws faster than 87. This gun is slow…. so don’t go crazy over the speed guns. Sorta makes you think about how cops can mess up your day with a faulty ticket.
Nick in SF -
Get use to it your the one who think like most people here that Fransworth will be the Yankees Set-Up man.And Ohlendorff is still a few months from really establishing anything special.
Yes like I said just watch the games and that will prove you are wrong.
Keep Joba in the pen in ’08 and ’09.You have no choice.
Yanks should pick up Dan Johnson just for a defensive replacement. You absolutely can not build a team with out a real 1st baseman. That is now 3 plays in the last couple of games that Giambi looked dreadful at 1st. Also with Pettitte pitching the other day he threw the ball into the outfield on a pick off. I never understood what Cashman was thinking with 1st base. Giambi, Ensberg, Betemit none of them are 1st baseman. Absolutely a joke.
Time to make some changes in the bullpen. At least demote Hawkins, Traber and Bruney in the pecking order. Promote Ohlendorf and a AAA guy. Tryouts are over for this bunch.
posada has no problem setting up and in with mo.
Listen Dump Traber and bring up Chris Britton. Drop Bruney to AAA and bring up … anybody else. If you can DFA Farnsworth i’d be all for it. The bullpen has a too many guys you cant use in a four run game….
By the way, I have no problem with Mo going 5 outs, he is pitching like he is 29. No point in babying him.
Can we clone Mo?
Well it went to hell on here fairly quickly, didnt it? lol
The problem the Yanks have is that they needed the rest of the bullpen to give some scoreless innings. if Hawkins had done his job, there’s no need for Mo in the 9th, or even the game. You can’t consistently bring Mo and Joba into games where the closer shouldn’t be needed.
“Drop Bruney to AAA”
what are you smoking? He’s been their 3rd base reliever.
How about dumping Michael Kay from YES network? His grating voice is starting to scratch at my soul.
Look at what these guys put together on him:
http://firemichaelkay.blogspot.com/
It’s time for him to go. I never thought I’d say this, but I’d probably advocate Waldman over him at this point.
before anyone panics about mo’s velosity on the YES gun. Friend at US Cellular says he’s 93/94 and gameday has him 92/93/94
what has bruney done wrong? he had 1 bad game seriously. his era is pretty reasonable.
George loves Kay, he’s not going anywhere.
“Keep Joba in the pen in ‘08 and ‘09.”
Yeah, and the tigers should REALLY shore up their pen by putting Verlander into the 8th inning role. That’ll solidify their team big time.
MoBoy,
I’m with you on keeping Joba in the pen for ’08…don’t know about ’09.
But right now you’d have to be watching another sport to think he doesn’t belong in the bullpen…We have no bullpen save for Mo and Joba!
MoBoy, you’re (which is a contraction of ‘you are’, and not the same thing as the possessive ‘your’ ) the very troll to whom I referred. If you can point to any post in which I’ve suggested that Farnsworth should be the setup man for Mo, I’d be happy to buy you a dictionary.
I suspect you can’t do that, because you’re the “I just watch the games, I don’t try to make sense” guy.
you know if Gordon Damer is reading this, now do you see what we mean by defense at 1st base !
Why are some people bashing Traber? He did his job – he got Thome to hit a groundball. It’s not his fault Giambi couldn’t get there and he was holding a runner on.
I try not to get on players for poor performances early on, but I’ve already seen enough of Hawkins…
Correction there..I mean 3rd “best” reliever.
I’m more comfortable with Mike Timlin in the bullpen than Farnsworth, Hawkins, or Bruney.
Rob NY
Chris Britton is not our solution it will only make it worst. Trust me.
I rather make Aaron Small un-retire and pitch for the Yanks than bring up Chris Britton.
Why not try using Ross Ohlendorf to pitch this inning?
Why not try something new and different instead of trying the same strategy over and over. How many times do guys like Hawkins, Bruney, Farnsworth and Traber have to fail before something change?
Giradi wanted Farnsworth in this pen because he was certain he could unlock the secret to Farnsworth and help him reinvent himself.
Girardi selected Bruney – despite his extensive track record for failure in the past.
And now Girardi is reducing his bull pen to the guys he “trusts” – where have we seen that word before? Trust – it’s being used a lot now.
Joba needs to get out of this pen before his arm gets burned out.
You can’t have a two man pen – but that’s what the yankee pen is reduced to the way Girardi is using them.
“Many of us were perplexed as to why Girardi insisted on keeping Joba in the game to pitch the 8th with a 5 run lead.”
no kidding. that inning could have been used tonight when it would have been much more important.
That’s because Kay is such a company guy. I don’t think he believes in an original thought. If you guys don’t believe me, you really should read http://firemichaelkay.blogspot.com/
I knew he was bad, but now I think he’s utterly atrocious. He’s ruining my Yankee fandom.
There is a fire Michael Kay blog? lol
Lemme go read it
Traber’s honeymoon is over, now we know why he was a non roster invitee.
Bruney is soft. You can’t pitch him in a game that counts. He has done well in spots that dont matter but when the lead is within 2 or 3 he can’t be trusted. If you can’t trust a guy, why have him on the team. That said I would rather get rid of Hawkins and Farnsworth but is that possible?
It is bad enough that Giambi plays 1st base 7 days a week. But to not have someone in there for the late innings is just unbelievable. Yanks need to get rid of Ensberg and get a real 1st baseman that Girardi will actually play at 1st.
I hate to be a broken record.
205 million dollar payroll and this team continues to believe first base is not a defensive position.
No problem. That’s now 4 straight games they have given up runs because they don’t have a first baseman.
He can’t hit and he is the worst defensive first baseman in the game. Yet, he plays…..everyday.
They have 4 guys in the bullpen who can’t pitch with anything less than a 10 run lead. That’s can’t last.
Lastly, there is a term for lefty specialists who can’t get lefties out. Its called DFA.
The sooner this team purges itself of the waste that is on this roster, the better they will be.
Until then, no lead is safe and unfortunately, Joba will never see the starting rotation. A damn shame.
I think he left Joba in last night because he needed the work. By his own admission he hasn’t been sharp since he got back.
“what has bruney done wrong? he had 1 bad game seriously. his era is pretty reasonable.”
He’s had a number of bad games. His ERA is irrelevant…he lets inherited runners score frequently, and he continually misses the strike zone when the situation gets tight. Did he get an earnie yesterday? No. But he was awful.
I’ve been against having Traber on this team from the first day of ST. To have an untalented left handed pitcher for the sake of having a left handed pitcher is ridiculous. Joba and Mo? Righthanders. They do just fine against lefthanders.
It is a waste of a roster spot.
Goodbye Traber. Let’s bring up Rasner so that Ohlendorf can fill that 7th inning role while Rasner assumes the long man role that Olly had.
This is not a no-brainer. This is simple common sense. Hawkins and Ohlendorf will figure out the 7th. Then we’ve got a 6 inning game.
Ohlendorf is being saved for 3 innings tomorrow because the Dou_che_bag Phil Hughes will be pitching.
Yeah Michael Kay is really bad and makes us the fans really crumble when it’s a tight sitution because he really rubs it in our face about what’s might happen.
I just mute the TV.
CB, Ohlendorf is the long man that’s it, if you can’t use him there guess what they just don’t want to use him there. Ohlendorf is gonna get hurt this season.
“It would seem that all those calls for the Yankees to get rid of Mussina and Damon last week were a bit premature. Now give Giambi a chance, too. Accomplished players didn’t get there by accident, they know what to do and what adjustments to make.”
Haven’t you been saying to trade Matsui when he’s the only one that has been productive?
With all due respect to those of you who still want Joba as a starter, can you tell me what we do about the 7th and 8th?
Who can do what Joba did last night for example?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be curious to see what Joba could do as a starter too-it’s just that I don’t see how we can lose such a valuable weapon in late innings…
For Pete & Joe Poz and everyone else who want to know why LaTroy gets booed….he stinks!!! A 9.31 ERA and we’re supposed to hold hands and sing cumbaya lol
Yeah, this gun is REALLY slow…they had Jenks’ 4-seamer at 88 MPH. That’s just not true.
Exactly, whozat. Bruney came in last night with one man on and left with the bases loaded. Joba had to clean up his mess.
moyboy or whatever your name is, dude, you couldn’t be more wrong. You could try, but you would not be succesful. Not only Joba in the pen in 08, but 09 as well huh? And the comment about Ohlendorf being “a few months away”? WTF are you talking about? Nobody on this board has said anything remotely close to saying Farnsy, Bruney, Hawkins can consistently get 6 outs. They blow. There are a few kids in AAA, 2 in high A ball, and 1 in AA. Joba will be a starter, live with it.
Drive 4-5- They were booing Hawkins this year before he even threw a pitch in Yankee Stadium.
I boo Cashman for signing him.
Last night was the perfect opportunity to give Joba an inning off. Joba pitched out of the 7th. The Yanks rallied and had a big lead by the 8th. You could have taken Joba out and still had Rivera as back-up in case the rest of the pen imploded.
I’m coming around to CB’s way of thinking. I’d like to see them give Ollie a try in these innings.
Wow Cano is in a big slump.
I know he gets into one every start of the season but this one feels bad.
Are those Yankee fans booing Giambi?
Can someone please tell Cano that in an at bat you are allowed to see more then 2 pitches…
“Who can do what Joba did last night for example?”
Ross Ohlendorf can do what he does but he’s not given a damn chance, so make sense before you continue to sound like Mike Fatcessa
ANOTHER IBB – i mean really, do they know something we don’t?
Respect the Giambino!
11.17 ERA for Hawkins….how much more of this are we going to endure before giving this guy his walking papers ?
Ohlendorf is very likely being saved for tomorrow……….although I’m sure he would have been used tonight had Moose been lit up. How dumb – and unfortunate for Ross that he can’t get a chance to pitch in big situations.
I really don’t want to knock Joe and Cash yet (I love them, PLUS it’s early), but I simply don’t understand their reluctance to bring up Rasner as the long man. Even if Traber were pitching well, it’s still a luxury we can’t afford at this time. I want Albaladejo up as well…….
Another thing I’m not happy about – why is Alberto Gonzalez on this team? The poor kid is not going to get any playing time; he needs to be sent down where he can stay sharp.
I guess Joe and Cash are either happy with Giambi’s play, they are stupid as all get out or they have a plan. I really hope it’s #3; I sure as hell hope it’s not #1 and I know it’s not #2.
That being said, I’m not about to be mopey on a night that has basically been very good. There are some positives tonight, which seem to have been swept aside.
They don’t need to get rid of Ensberg to get a first baseman. They need to get rid of Giambi. He’s the culprit, not Ensberg.
April is supposed to be a month to learn about your team.
Here is what Girardi should have learned:
Jason Giambi can’t play first base. He also can’t play anymore but, that’s another discussion for another day.
You need a first baseman who can actually catch and throw the ball.
You need a first baseman who can actually catch and throw the ball. I wrote it twice in case Girardi is so stubborn he can’t understand it.
Bruney, Hawkins, Farnsworth and Traber cannot pitch in any games in which the Yankees are ahead by under 7-8 runs. Never. You can carry two of them, you can’t carry four.
Just fix it and go into May with the changes in place.
If not, no lead is safe and guys like Joba and Ohlendorf will spend a lot of time with Dr. Andrews before all is said and done.
“Late in games now, based on the current roster, you must put Gonzalez in at third and Ensberg at first for defense. Even if Ensberg is questionable at first base as well.”
I honestly don’t understand Girardi’s loyalty to these aging, under performing veterans. It’s perplexing.
What point is he trying to make with Jason Giambi. I’m not saying DFA him.
But how many times, how many runs can he cost this team before Girardi admits failure?
He’s showing more “loyalty” and “trust” in these kinds of guys than Torre did last year, when he finally got fed up.
Don Vito A. Bellamo- Hawkins signing is just another reason its time to get a new GM after this season. Cashman has never built a good bullpen.
*cringes* at the “he gone” that was just uttered.
ERA 2.70 IP 10 BB 3 SO 10
… that’s Britton’s line this year…. why cant he throw some innings for our pen?
In 53 innings with Baltimore he had a 3.35 ERA 1.17 WHIP 41k 17 BB…. that’s better than the guys in our pen.
whozat-
THats why Verlander is 1-3 with a 5.00 era.You can’t have young inexpirence pitchers that anchor your rotation,they will have bad years or hgorrible streaks.Thats why you don’t have Joba,Kennedy, and Hughes all start because they are to young and inexpirence to anchor this staff.
Nick in SF-
Well if you don’t want Joba in the as the set-up man all year then the only other pitchers in your pen that hasn’t been horrible is Bruney and Ohlendorff who are not even close to Joba and would have given up a run in the 8th today.
“Ohlendorf is the long man that’s it”
If that is a matter of choice and not necessity, then I think that’s the wrong call.
“For Pete & Joe Poz and everyone else who want to know why LaTroy gets booed”
No one asked that. We asked why he got booed ON OPENING DAY before he threw a pitch. And people weren’t chanting “Paul O-Neil” during his first outing because he’d been pitching poorly. He hadn’t yet pitched at all.
“Don’t get me wrong, I’d be curious to see what Joba could do as a starter too-it’s just that I don’t see how we can lose such a valuable weapon in late innings…”
Would you rather have Justin Verlander or Joel Zumaya?
I want to see what some of the other options can do. Ollie, Britton, Ramirez, Patterson, Horne (once he comes back), McCutchen, Robertson…
Just because Farnsworth, Bruney and Hawkins can’t do it doesn’t mean that Joba is the only one who can.
I’m amazed at the negativity in this thread and from some of my favorite and most respected posters as well. It’s kind of depressing if I think about it, but I’m going to concentrate on the positive. Joe and Cash know what they are doing…….what are the alternatives? That they are clueless and the team is headed for a disastrous future?
Brett Gardner With The Walkoff Homer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To change the subject for a minute, what is with this creepy Heineken Premium Light commercial?
Jose Veras anyone?
Brandon,
And what body of evidence can you put forth to substantiate that position?
In your opinion why hasn’t he been given the chance?
Rob NY- I thought the same thing when Britton did well last year in the minors. Then they brought him up. The guy’s got no pop on his fastball.
CB
I honestly believe the Yankees want Giambi at DH. That was the plan last year. there’s just no flexibility on the roster, so to play Giambi, he has to play first base. Damon sets the table as a leadoff hitter and Matsui is on fire now. That’s Left Field and DH.
I’d rather see Giambi ride the bench, but I guess his salary won’t allow it. I hate how much he’s playing first, but if it’s going to be that way, can we at the very least have a late inning defensive replacement?
Giambi isn’t going anywhere because of his joke of a contract, so there is no point in even talking about it. $21m this year and $5 just to get rid of him for next year. After this year they can have a retirement party for him and Moose.
Can we teach Gardner to play first?
MoBoy, please don’t take this the wrong way, but how old are you?
CaptainsCorner- If the Yankees look dead at the trade deadline and Giambi is producing, they’ll find a taker. Might be too late to get too much for him, but you never know. You pay the rest of this year and let someone else worry about the buyout.
Giambi plays because of his ability to steal bases at will.
“THats why Verlander is 1-3 with a 5.00 era.You can’t have young inexpirence pitchers that anchor your rotation,they will have bad years or hgorrible streaks.”
Sabathia has an ERA over 10. He is neither young, nor inexperienced. He’s just having an awful month. Verlander has had two stellar years, and you’re saying he can’t anchor a rotation because he’s having a bad month? EVERY pitcher has bad months.
Let’s hire Donnie Walsh for GM next year!
Cano’s BA is almost as low as Giambi’s.
The thing about Giambi’s defense is, when he flops over and make a diving play, everyone complements it, when the fact is, any “average” major league first baseman would be waiting for it to settle in his glove.
And more importantly, the man CANNOT throw a baseball. I don’t think he’s ever turned a 3-6-3 with the yankees, and he doesn’t even ATTEMPT force plays at second base.
I would think he’s defense costs the Yanks 20-30 runs a year, easy.
If it were the Jason Giambi circa 2000, who hit .320 with 40 bombs and 130RBIs, I might be able to live with it. But when he weighs twice as much as his batting average…not too much.
Rebecca- Mark Teixeira in ’09
love you Mo
not bad….mo didnt have to work too hard
We still left too many guys on base.
“In your opinion why hasn’t he been given the chance?”
Because he’s been forced into long-man duty by the underperformance of Ian and Hughes. They can’t go get Rasner without dumping someone else off the roster…for some reason they don’t want to cut Kyle or send Bruney or Traber to AAA, though I don’t know why.
yikes!
alot of winning germs on Posada’s hand lol
Mo always saves it when the other bums in the bullpen show how pathetic they are.
Excellent job by Mo again. The Yanks go for the sweep tomorrow night.
Hope that Hughes can give them some quality innings.
Thank you Mo. Good to get another win.
Great job by Mussina tonight. Gotta give the man props
Mo is a good pitcher.
“We still left too many guys on base.”
The offense is based around OBP. Of course they’ll leave guys on base.
How’d they hit with RISP. Well, I think.
“And more importantly, the man CANNOT throw a baseball. I don’t think he’s ever turned a 3-6-3 with the yankees, and he doesn’t even ATTEMPT force plays at second base.”
Teddy, that’s a HUGE point. Any ball hit to him is as good as a sacrifice with men on base. Giambi really just no longer has a role on this team, even if he were hitting decently. We need a real decent firstbaseman, preferably a righty who could add balance to the line up. Shelley is almsot as bad. I’d like to see more of Ensberg there. If he can’t get the job done, then you try and find someone who cab.
Mo is the GOD…
The Pope gets the Yanks another W
“Hope that Hughes can give them some quality innings.”
- May be one, and that’s being optimistic.
Moose stepped up tonight.
what matters is that we win a series
hopefully we can sweep the Chicago White Sox
“Yeah, this gun is REALLY slow…they had Jenks’ 4-seamer at 88 MPH. That’s just not true.”
Bobby Jenks has lost a tremendous amount of velocity over the past year.
He used to sit at 97-100. Then all of a sudden last year he was throwing 92-93.
No explanation. He’s probably not 88 but he absolutely no longer has a plus fastball.
But this happens with relievers all the time. They just flame out with repeated use.
Over and over bull pen arms just fail. That’s why Mo is such an outlier – his longevity makes him unlike anyone ever. It’s not just how good he is – it’s how long he’s lasted.
By the way – one of the guys Joba was often compared to was Bobby Jenks.
Who thinks Hughes will step up tomorrow night?
the yanks are going to win 12 – 1 tomorrow!
good game tonight. Tomorrow we go for the sweep! Great game by Moose and Damon. Posada too of course.
This could be the season Mo doesn’t give up a run.
clinic by mariano. the two seam low inside pitch to the last batter even had joe morgan amazed. he basically said that’s not fair if rivera adds that to his other pitches.
“Brandon,
And what body of evidence can you put forth to substantiate that position?
In your opinion why hasn’t he been given the chance?”
Ohlendorf’s sample
14.1 IP, 12 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 6 BB, 13 SO
GO/AO 19:11
w/ 3 (3 inning stints) in a total of 7 games
vs
Joba’s sample
8.0 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 9 SO
GO/AO 6:9
If I was Girardi…Giambi would DH once a week when Damon/Matsui needs a day off. Play 1st 2-3 times a week. But never when Wang is on the mound. That is when he is hitting if he isn’t then he can sit on the bench. But they MUST find a 1st baseman Giambi absolutely can not be in the game in the late innings. The other day Pettitte was pitching and he had a runner picked off and Giambi could not even throw to 2nd!!! How can you have a 1st baseman who can’t throw. So what next time Pettitte has to throw his pick offs to 2nd base and not 1st??!!
Shelley deserves a chance. At the beginning of camp, most believed it was HIS job to lose. All he did was bomb the ball in spring training, show great strides in the field, and have his competition bat in the .100s for the first month of the season. And still, somehow, he is in Scranton. Not fair AT ALL.
If MLB were like the NFL, and contracts were not guaranteed, Giambi would be GONE a loooooooooong, looooooong time ago.
Jason Giambi tonight:
BA: .500
OBP: .800
Stolen Base %: 100%
Who needs defense with a night like that???
“THats why Verlander is 1-3 with a 5.00 era.You can’t have young inexpirence pitchers that anchor your rotation,they will have bad years or hgorrible streaks.”
That’s interesting and convenient selective memory.
Verlander led the Tigers to the world series as a rookie. He was their best pitcher and one of their 2-3 most important players.
CB and SJ44 – you guys make some very persuasive points. Since you are usually so optimistic, I have to take what you say seriously.
What do you think about this possibility: the Yankees are giving Jason perhaps more time than would ordinarily be warranted because they want to be absolutely sure that he just can’t hack it, at the plate and in the field. Once they make their decision that he can’t, that’s it – they’ll move on and Jason will no longer be in their plans. It will be a permanent move. In essence, they want to give him a very fair shake before casting him completely aside.
yeah Santana is finished, just because he leads the MLB with strikeouts it does not mean a thing. Santana had one BAD outing this year ( it was not horrible ) kennedy and hughs combined has one GOOD outing.
heh.
Such a shame watching Johan perform for the mets and not us. I’ll never get over that blunder.
We have some minor leaguers who have good numbers in Scranton. Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez, Heath Phillips and Albaledejo are all pitching well. Cant be worse than the “Farns”, “Hawkman” or “Tragedy” Traber.
Nick in SF-
23.
whozat-
Yes Verlander has played good for two years,Sabathia has played good for over two years thats why they are now Aces because they played for more then one year and showed you they can be anchors for any rotation because they have done it before in the majors.
Hughes,Kennedy, and Joba have not played a major league full year combined.You can’t have 3 pitchers without a full year expirence in the rotation they will have major slumps which we can’t afford.
Joba is not a Ace starter.You know why?He hasn’t proven it yet but he is a great set-up man.
Keep him there until the Yankees can afford to put him in the rotation.
*fast forwards to 15 games out at all-star break.. who cares right?
fleas
the Mets go by the Money Mets as of 2005, didn’t you get the word?
D I D, I don’t just sit and look at how pretty they look when throw, you should know better.
Duncan will be back as soon at they figure out what to do about Moeller. Then most of this will be moot. Him and Gonzalez have options, no one else does. Posada’s injury forced Giambi to 1B, with Ensburg being the only back up for the corner infield. With Ensburg at 3B, that only exacerbates the problem. Giambi is there out of necessity, not necessarily by choice. Strangely, Giambi has been the only healthy one.
“I’ll never get over that”
Then why do you even bother to root for the Yankees any more? Do the rest of us a favor and JUST LEAVE already.
Mo is my favorite Yankee for many reasons – nevermind how incredibly classy and genuine he is off it, the man is just mind-blowingly great ON the field. He just awes me – the man is built like a reed and yet he’s had the greatest and longest-lasting career of any reliever in history. There aren’t many players in any sport who are looked at like a god while they are still playing, even by other players, and Mo is one.
JGNYC (insert Pro-Yankee slogan here)
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Giambi plays because of his ability to steal bases at will.
Credit where credit is due; I laughed out loud, a lot.
i don’t understand all the people in this thread who are both bashing Traber AND Giambi for not making that play.
it’s one or the other, no?
the ball should have been fielded. that means Traber did his job.
i don’t get it.
“Nick in SF-
23.
whozat-
Yes Verlander has played good for two years,Sabathia has played good for over two years thats why they are now Aces because they played for more then one year and showed you they can be anchors for any rotation because they have done it before in the majors.
Hughes,Kennedy, and Joba have not played a major league full year combined.You can’t have 3 pitchers without a full year expirence in the rotation they will have major slumps which we can’t afford.
Joba is not a Ace starter.You know why?He hasn’t proven it yet but he is a great set-up man.
Keep him there until the Yankees can afford to put him in the rotation.”
:snore:
How are you going to develop an ace if you leave him in the bullpen and delay his development by 2-3 years?
You are an imbecile. That is the only explanation for your incessant lack of reason.
I would suggest that everyone ignore this fool from here on out.
Why would you question Guillen walking Giam-Bam-bi? It paid off both times !!!
Number of pitches for Phil Phony tomorrow after 2 innings = 52
“Yes Verlander has played good for two years,Sabathia has played good for over two years thats why they are now Aces because they played for more then one year and showed you they can be anchors for any rotation because they have done it before in the majors.”
And how, pray tell, with Joba EVER show what he can do as a starter if they don’t return him to his starting role? Why should Kennedy or Moose be in the rotation when a superior pitcher is languishing in the pen? You’re afraid of “too many” young starters? Fine, send Kennedy to AAA. More good starters make the team better.
In the end he is young and I rather have him pitch 7 inning spread across a week then 7 innings every 5 days.
I don’t want him in the pen but we need him there now not the future.Why is that a crazy idea he s only 22.Hughes is gonna figure it out because he has the talent but until we get a set-up man Joba is the answer.
MoBoy, dude if we used the “he’s good in the bullpen so don’t EVER think of using him as a starter mentality” think of all the pitchers who would have never become “Aces”. You can’t go with that mentality. Joba put up big numbers in College, A ball, high A, AA as a STARTER. He was groomed to be a starter, and he WILL be a starter. Get over it already and realize that the Yankee farm system has tons of depth, and will have help in mid summer to fill in the gap in the 7th and 8th innings. If you don’t realize that, than maybe you should do a little research. and the numbers someone put up for Ohlendorf, could it possibly be due to being overused for 3 innings at a time when you were pitching 1 inning last year and all spring? A little overuse perhaps? He is being wasted as the long man, and you will see in the next few weeks, a change in the way he is used. It took Girardi a short time to see Betemit was a wasted roster spot, but he got it. It won’t take long for him to realize Bruney/Traber/Farnsy/ all suck. One or 2 of these guys will be gone.
“i don’t understand all the people in this thread who are both bashing Traber AND Giambi for not making that play.
it’s one or the other, no?”
No! The heads of ALL involved in the play must roll! Abreu fielded it and threw the ball in…KILL HIM!!!
Girardi owes Moose an ice cream for tonights performance.
MoBoy, I really thought you were going to say 15. 23? You should know better.
By your logic, Joba can never start a big league game because he’s never started a big league game.
By your logic, Joba should never have been used in the bullpen in big league games last season because he had never been used in the bullpen in a big league game.
Ugh, that makes a ton of sense. Thank goodness we had Joba sitting in the pen tonight. Hmmmm, did Mussina just make a good case for himself to be the new setup man? He pitched well!
“In the end he is young and I rather have him pitch 7 inning spread across a week then 7 innings every 5 days.”
What does young have to do with it?
Would you rather have Justin Verlander, or Joel Zumaya? You never answered me.
I think the question of whether or not Joba would make it as a starter is irrelevant…
Look at his stuff..indeed, how can you not at least acknowledge his potential-true we won’t know until we see him do it, but from what I’ve seen, it’s hard to believe he won’t make it as a starter…
The problem though is we’ve found such a devastating weapon in the latter innings, with Joba that I can’t imagine what will happen when he vacates that role…
If we could find someone to fill that role then yes, let’s see what Joba can do as a starter, but until then…
And as for Ohlendorf, when has he pitched in the kind of pressure packed situations that Joba found himself in?
I’m not saying he couldn’t do it, I’m just saying I haven’t seen it…
Bottom line on Joba is this, in the regular season, he may just be more valuable in the bullpen, but in the postseason he is far more valuable in the rotation. Being that the goal is to win championships, not having the best record in the regular season, the chances of winning number 27 increase with Joba in the rotation in Oct. That being said, transitioning him in June or July when the schedule gets easier, is the right plan.
Hmmm,
The problem is Traber failed to do the job, regardless of how it worked out. No kidding, I’ve seen little league 1st basemen that could have gotten to that ball, but Traber has failed his one and only job multiple times already this year. And no matter how you cut it, he again didn’t get the one lefty batter he was in for, out.
“Number of pitches for Phil Phony tomorrow after 2 innings = 52″
We get it, ER, you don’t like Phil Hughes. Do us all a favor and shut up. K?
Why is everybody thinking I want Joba to be the heir to MO?
I never said that.I said he needs to be there until you can find a set-up man or at least a year.We would have not gone to the post season last year if he didn’t pitch in the pen.
Horne is injured.HUmberto sanchez,Melchon,Cox are coming off Tommy John surgeries.Edwar and Kei Igawa are AAA pitcher who can’t pitch in the Majors.Marquez has been horrible.Brittion is a long man reliever.What options do we have?Patterson is maybe the only one and he dominated only AA last year.
Imagine a playoff scenario where you have Hughes(because he straightened himself out), Wang and Pettitte-not necessarily in that order of course…
Wouldn’t you feel a hell of a lot better if you knew you had Joba and Mo to back them up?
“I think the question of whether or not Joba would make it as a starter is irrelevant…
Look at his stuff..indeed, how can you not at least acknowledge his potential-true we won’t know until we see him do it, but from what I’ve seen, it’s hard to believe he won’t make it as a starter…
The problem though is we’ve found such a devastating weapon in the latter innings, with Joba that I can’t imagine what will happen when he vacates that role…
If we could find someone to fill that role then yes, let’s see what Joba can do as a starter, but until then…
And as for Ohlendorf, when has he pitched in the kind of pressure packed situations that Joba found himself in?
I’m not saying he couldn’t do it, I’m just saying I haven’t seen it…”
You don’t delay the development of a guy you want on your team for his entire career to win an extra handful of games this season (which is the high end of what we gain with Joba in the bullpen).
Honestly, I hope Joba has a bomb at least once this season. A 3 run blown save in the 8th.
Just to shut everyone up.
Cano doesn’t concentrate in the game.
“And as for Ohlendorf, when has he pitched in the kind of pressure packed situations that Joba found himself in?”
did you even watch the series vs Boston ?… ughhh forget it your hopeless, WFAN has a show from 1PM – 6 :30 P.M. for you
“Number of pitches for Phil Phony tomorrow after 2 innings = 52″
you know what was great? back when yankee fans used to root for yankee players.
this place sucks unless the yankees win 12-0 while throwing a no-hitter.
Where’s Karstens? Still on the DL?
How about we bring Rasner up as the long man?
“Number of pitches for Phil Phony tomorrow after 2 innings = 52″
Phil’s ex-girlfriend? Is that you?
MoBoy, currently on the roster is this guy named Ross Ohlendorf. He has some pretty electric stuff. He is currently being mis-used in a long man, cuz we don’t have one. When the powers that be come to there senses and cut loose Hawkins or Traber (no lefty sucks but so does Traber), than you can bring up Rasner. He will be the long guy. Ross will get his chance in innings 7-8. We also have a lot of depth in the minor leagues. I wouldn’t be surprised to see McCutchen/Patterson/Robertson/Ramirez all get shots to suceed in that role at some point this summer.
Ohlendorf came in to the 7th with the bases loaded and one out against Boston?
I don’t remember that…
Bruney has outpitchd Ohlendorf in almost every measurable way so far this year. Last year Bruney, bad as he was, pitched to close to league average numbers in the Al East; Ohlendorf pitched to a 5 ERA in AAA. They’re the same age. Explain to me again why Ohlendorf is the cure to all our bullpen ills while Bruney should be pushed in front of a train.
There is no worse defensive player in the entire sport than Giambi. None. Piazza and Ortiz laugh at his first base work. Hard to believe when you watch him throw, he came up as a 3rd baseman and the A’s actually moved sure-handed Scotty Brosius to the outfield to accomodate him.
“Wouldn’t you feel a hell of a lot better if you knew you had Joba and Mo to back them up?”
No, I’d feel a hell of a lot better if my playoff rotation had Joba, Wang, Pettitte and Hughes all in it.
“And as for Ohlendorf, when has he pitched in the kind of pressure packed situations that Joba found himself in?
I’m not saying he couldn’t do it, I’m just saying I haven’t seen it…”
If you only put a person in a role that he’s already shown the ability to handle, how will you ever find new talent? He was a late-innings guy in AAA after they moved him to the pen.
Ohlendorf pitched in Sept. the way Joba did?
I don’t remember that…
“Ohlendorf came in to the 7th with the bases loaded and one out against Boston?
I don’t remember that…”
Well, we’ll just have to make sure Joe orders the relievers to get the bases loaded with no outs so Ohlendorf can get his shot.
Randyhater, I stopped reading your post after the 1st sentence. All I can say is WOW.
“Bruney has outpitchd Ohlendorf in almost every measurable way so far this year. Last year Bruney, bad as he was, pitched to close to league average numbers in the Al East; Ohlendorf pitched to a 5 ERA in AAA. They’re the same age. Explain to me again why Ohlendorf is the cure to all our bullpen ills while Bruney should be pushed in front of a train.”
They’re being used differently. If Bruney were used for 3 innings at a time and Ohlendorf only 1 at a time (and bailed out when he sucks), I imagine the numbers would be different.
“Ohlendorf pitched to a 5 ERA in AAA. They’re the same age. Explain to me again why Ohlendorf is the cure to all our bullpen ills while Bruney should be pushed in front of a train.”
Because most of those numbers were put up as a starter, and his repertoire is drastically different as a reliever. ERA for a reliever is pretty irrelevant. Bruney walks guys in situations where you can’t afford it, lets inherited runners score, and is always behind in the count
Did you guys just hear Moose on the postgame?
He’s a one-man comedy act.
whozat-
Looks like you shooed away the fleas! Nice!
But he’s so talented in that role! Do you realize how powerful a combination of Joba and Mo are at the back end of the game?
Take a poll of managers around baseball and ask them if they’d like that tandem to close out their games?
“Now give Giambi a chance, too. Accomplished players didn’t get there by accident, they know what to do and what adjustments to make.”
Really? So why hasn’t Giambi made an adjustment in the past 5 years?
Dynasty, I’m wondering if you are reading what’s being written here at all. YES ITS A WONDERFUL TANDEM. Now, read this. Wang, Pettite, Chamberlain in a 5 game series in the ALDS, do you like your chances?
“Bruney has outpitchd Ohlendorf in almost every measurable way so far this year. Last year Bruney, bad as he was, pitched to close to league average numbers in the Al East; Ohlendorf pitched to a 5 ERA in AAA. They’re the same age. Explain to me again why Ohlendorf is the cure to all our bullpen ills while Bruney should be pushed in front of a train.”
what the hell are you talking about !
he has a freaking 3.77 ERA in role he is not preped for ! he has the most GO/AO out of everybody on the team !,
Ross Ohlendorf
#4 in SO
#5 in IP
#4 in GO
#6 in ERA
what else you want ?
“But he’s so talented in that role! Do you realize how powerful a combination of Joba and Mo are at the back end of the game?
Take a poll of managers around baseball and ask them if they’d like that tandem to close out their games?”
Man, are you guys on loop?
Justin Verlander would be an insane setup man. So would Johan Santana. Could you imagine that Santana/Wagner tandem?
A STARTER IS WORTH MORE THAN A RELIEVER – PERIOD.
JOBA IS REPLACEABLE IN THE EIGHTH INNING – no, we won’t find a setup man as good as Joba. We’ll find a setup man who is -good enough-.
Take a look at every measure of value (such as win probability added, etc.) – A GOOD STARTER IS WORTH MORE THAN AN ACE RELIEVER.
I just got in and watching the post-game. What’s the whole “translation problem” Moose was referring to? Something about Jorge telling Girardi “Moose got nothing” and Girardi almost pulled Moose?
Cool we got another win!
Good game Mussina. Go Yanks!!! Dynasty/MoBoy, starting pitching wins playoffs series. No good to have Joba sitting in the pen, what happens if we get behind 3-2 or 1-0 in each of the 1st two games, and we have Joba chillin in the pen talking with Mo about not pitching because we are losing?
“Last year Bruney, bad as he was, pitched to close to league average numbers in the Al East;”
Bruney walked nearly 7 hitters/ 9 innings last year.
He had a WHIP of 1.6.
Not only are those not league average they were amongst the worst numbers in all of baseball for any pitcher who threw over 40 innings.
So far this year Bruney has a negative win expectancy meaning that when he enters high leverage situations he has not pitched well.
SDJohn,
I only like my chances if you can guarantee that Wang, Pettitte and Chamberlain can give you 8 innings apiece…
whozat-
Verlander.But how can you win games in this day and age if you can’t have a prospects as closers.Mariano was the X factor in the 90′s world championship years.If we don’t find anyone as close as JOba and if Hughes and Kennedy are able to win 15 games a season it’s not crazy to think JOba is a great closer if only he is not a great pitcher in ’09.
What would you rather have JOba as a dominate set-up man or a average pitcher.Lets find this out next year.THere’s no clear answer this year.
Nick in SF-
NO but you never know what prospects are gonna be when they get to the majors.WE found somebody who might be a great stater but since he’s young let him pitch in the majors as a set-up man because everybody else isn’t JOba.At least let him finsh the year.He’s more valuable in the pen this year anyways.
How many times have we seen an ace lose a well pitched game because the pitchers responsible for 7th, 8th and 9th blew it? Too many times-that’s all I’m saying!
“SDJohn,
I only like my chances if you can guarantee that Wang, Pettitte and Chamberlain can give you 8 innings apiece…”
Wow. In that case, you’ll never like your chances in any playoff series. You can’t make that guarantee with ANY three pitchers in the major leagues. Not even Webb, Peavy, and Santana.
“How many times have we seen an ace lose a well pitched game because the pitchers responsible for 7th, 8th and 9th blew it? Too many times-that’s all I’m saying!”
How many times have we seen Rivera hanging out in the bullpen because the starter gave up 6 in 2 innings?
Your best reliever sitting on his butt because the game is lost in the second inning.
This insane belief that the 8th inning is worth more than the 1st is so bizarre.
How much did having Joba help us last October, anyway?
Someone should call Theo Epstein and tell him that he’s missing the boat, he could have a tandem of Beckett and Papelbon closing out games.
What GM wouldn’t want that, I ask ya!
“I only like my chances if you can guarantee that Wang, Pettitte and Chamberlain can give you 8 innings apiece…”
This means that over the course of a season you expect three pitchers to throw 240 – 256 innings a piece.
Last year on pitcher in all of baseball threw over 240 innings – CC Sabathia.
No pitcher threw over 241.
So your criteria is that the yankees need 3 pitchers to do what only 1 pitcher in all of baseball did last year?
And 3 pitchers throwing 240 innings each is a total of 720 innings.
Show me the last pitching staff that had three starters throw 720 innings.
How many decades has it been?
3 starting pitchers in the ALDS giving you 8 innings consecutively. Your not asking for too much huh? What happens if they give you 6-7 decent innings?
V
Why are you assuming that because Verlander is a great starter, that would translate to success as a setup guy or closer?
Those are different animals. A starting pitcher has some margin for error. Does an 8th inning guy have the same luxury? How about a closer? They have to be on evey time-there’s more inherent pressure there…
Look, a starter can have a terrible inning and rebound to win the game…Beckett gave up 3 runs in an inning against the Yanks I believe and still won…Could Joba or Mo give up 3 runs in an inning?
But that’s exactly the point, CB…starting pitchers don’t give you 7 innings let alone 8, usually…If you’ve found a magic bullet like Joba to shorten the games I say don’t mess with it….
“What would you rather have JOba as a dominate set-up man or a average pitcher.Lets find this out next year.THere’s no clear answer this year.”
Every indicator that we have of Joba’s potential in the rotation is that he would perform significantly better than average. Scouting reports and peripheral stats all agree that this kid has the stuff and the command to succeed as a starter. You can’t “find out next year” because if he doesn’t get to around 140 IP this year, we’ll be in EXACTLY the same place next year, where he can’t throw enough innings to start for a whole year.
Consider this…if setup guys were more valuable — in terms of wins — than ace starters, why isn’t Scot Shields making more money than Johan Santana?
“A starting pitcher has some margin for error. Does an 8th inning guy have the same luxury? ”
Sure they do. How about when the relief pitcher is pitching with a 5 run lead in the 8th like Joba did just last night?
In general, and this is absolutely true, managers NEVER use their best relief pitchers to ONLY throw high leverage, high pressure outs.
NEVER.
For example, there are often times where an 8th inning guy will have to face a teams #7,8,9 hitters. How hard is that to do? Sure sometime they’ll face the 3-4-5 hitter but it’s even then they’ll often do that with no on on base.
Benjie Molina of the Giants just hit a homer off Trevor Hoffman of the Padres to tie up the game 1-1 in the top of the 9th. So Maddux doesn’t get his 350th win and Matt Cain doesn’t get a hard-luck loss.
An ace setup man might have made a difference in this game.
I’m going to bed. Joba is a starter he will be a starter and there ain’t no damn question about it. Can’t wait, otherwise we will waste a year of developing him in the role he has been groomed for since college. Live with it. If we don’t have anyone else in our system that can pitch innings 7-8 in pressure situations, we won’t make the playoffs anyhow.
“Why are you assuming that because Verlander is a great starter, that would translate to success as a setup guy or closer?”
Because he wouldn’t have to use his 3rd and 4th pitches. He wouldn’t have to keep any gas in the tank for pitches 30-100. He could go balls-out for 20-30 pitches with his top two offerings and just wreck guys.
“But that’s exactly the point, CB…starting pitchers don’t give you 7 innings let alone 8, usually…”
But if they give you six-seven quality innings, now the game is ONLY 2-3 INNINGS LONG!!!
Three things then its bedtime for me:
1. Mariano is throwing the ball as well as he has in the last 5 years. His cutter had so much action on it tonight it was scary. Only 17 pitches (13 strikes) in an inning and 2/3. Amazing. He will be able to go an inning tomorrow if needed.
2. Brian Bruney has never pitched anywhere close to the league average in his life. How can you compare Bruney and Ohlendorf? How ’bout this? Give Ohlendorf 1 inning stints and see how he does. It will be better than Bruney because he is a better pitcher than Bruney. The sooner they get Bruney off this team, the rebuilding of the bullpen can begin. An absolute waste of a roster spot.
Fact is, the Yankees have 4 pitchers in their bullpen who can’t be trusted in games. Bruney, Farnsworth, Hawkins and Traber. You can have 2 guys like that in your ‘pen (for mop up duty) but not 4. They are going to have to figure out who stays and who goes soon because its doubtful this bullpen will stay as it is through the entire season. They aren’t that insane in the Yankees front office.
3. Its time they get a first baseman. I don’t even know how that’s even debatable now. Does anybody really want Jason Giambi at first base in a one run game with the playoffs on the line? At some point, the Yankees are either going to have the most expensive pinch hitter in baseball history or they are going to have to DFA him. He costs this team every night he is in the lineup.
There is no way he will play first base all year. Only Ozzie Guillen is stupid enough to walk a .130 hitter intentionally twice in a game.
Overall, you can see this team has the makings of being a good team. But, there is the kind of dead weight on the roster that can drag the entire team down unless they get it fixed. Hopefully, its sooner rather than later.
Here’s hoping Hughes can back up Wang and Mussina and pitch a quality game tomorrow night.
Night all.
But you’re much more likely to have to face high pressure scenarios in the 8th and 9th…if not then you’re saying that Mo is not that valuable…
Is that what you’re saying?
Ohlendorf gave up 86 hits and 24 walks in 66 innigs of Triple A ball last year. He’s 26 years old this year.
His stuff looks fine and I’m all for letting him earn more premium innings. But let’s not annoint him a savior just yet.
cb,
Bruney was dominant his first five appearances, was shaky against Boston, got cuffed by Tampa but rebounded to get big outs, and would have been fine last night with any other first baseman in the game. I’m not looking to give him a long term extension, but he’s earned a longer look, especially if the other options are Farnsworth and Hawkins.
“An ace setup man might have made a difference in this game.”
If the Giant had ONLY moved Cain to a setup role, some shlub could have started the game and handily lost it to Maddux. That would INDEED be a big difference
I nominate Jake Peavey, he’s clearly better in the bullpen or a future Ace setup man training to be the future CL !!!
“But you’re much more likely to have to face high pressure scenarios in the 8th and 9th…if not then you’re saying that Mo is not that valuable…
Is that what you’re saying?”
You’re setting up a straw man. The high pressure of the 8th and 9th innings does not outweigh the value of the first seven. No one is saying that Mo is not that valuable. However, he is less valuable than a dominant starting pitcher.
“But that’s exactly the point, CB…starting pitchers don’t give you 7 innings let alone 8, usually…If you’ve found a magic bullet like Joba to shorten the games I say don’t mess with it….”
This is just a circular argument now.
First of all good pitchers do go 7 innings. Very good pitchers do it all the time.
Last year 20 pitchers averaged 7 innings per game. How is that no one?
There are only 150 starting pitchers in baseball. That means roughly 13% averaged 7 innings per start.
How is that an insignificant number?
Last year Heath Bell was by far the best and most valuable relief pitcher in the NL (this is factually true – don’t dispute this – bell was the best and pitched in extremely high leverage situations).
Last year Jake Peavey was by far the best starter in the NL.
Are you seriously going to tell me you would have rather had Heath Bell than Jake Peavy.
Are you going to tell me that Jake Peavy couldn’t do Heath Bell’s job?
Are you going to tell me that health bell could do Jake Peavy’s job?
“Ohlendorf gave up 86 hits and 24 walks in 66 innigs of Triple A ball last year. He’s 26 years old this year.”
Are you at all interested in listening to us when we say that his numbers as a starter are irrelevant in the comparison? I guess not.
“Ohlendorf gave up 86 hits and 24 walks in 66 innigs of Triple A ball last year. He’s 26 years old this year.”
he was new to the role, went from save up mechanics to all out maximum effort in his throws.
“But you’re much more likely to have to face high pressure scenarios in the 8th and 9th…if not then you’re saying that Mo is not that valuable…”
who said that ?, your putting words into people’s mouth, and not making any bit of sense either.
I’m on hold to talk to Brian Sabean right now; I want to know what Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum are being wasted in the rotation when they could move into the bullpen and shorten the game.
What GM wouldn’t want a tandem like that!
Brandon,
But Beckett is already established as a starting pitcher…we can’t say that about Joba…yes maybe he could be even better than Beckett, but I don’t see how we could find that out right now…
What should we do, let Mo pitch 2 innings every night?
What do you think will happen if the combination of Joba and Mo continues to work over the next few weeks, and the Yankees find themselves sitting in 1st place?
Do you think anyone would be brave enough to change that dynamic?
“Do you think anyone would be brave enough to change that dynamic?”
Yes. Brian Cashman, Hank Steinbrenner, and Hal Steinbrenner.
Joba is a starter. He’s a potential ace of the franchise pitcher. He’s potentially better than Santana, Peavy, Webb, Verlander, Sabathia.
You can’t waste that potential in the bullpen without giving it a chance.
“Bruney was dominant his first five appearances, was shaky against Boston, got cuffed by Tampa but rebounded to get big outs, and would have been fine last night with any other first baseman in the game.”
Bruney has pitched fine this year in low leverage situations when he’s entered games with no on on base.
In the times he’s come in in key spots he has done poorly to terribly.
Overall, here is the facts on Bruney.
The Yankees have been less likely to win games in which Bruney has pitched than they otherwise would have been if a league average pitcher had pitched in the same situations Bruney had been brought in to pitch.
It’s too late for me to explain this any further but trust me – that is true. I’m not just making that up.
It’s based on a very useful statistic called reliever win expectancy.
You can look it up if you care to:
http://www.baseballprospectus......cid=311820
Dynasty-
You are digging yourself in deeper & deeper, just cut your losses when you are wrong.
The game plan is set for Joba to be a starter.
The level of ignorance on this board astounds me. What is fun to do is to look at the comments from day to day and see what some posters wrote about players three weeks ago vs. today. Amazing how a player is a bum on April 3rd and a Hall of Famer on April 22nd- with the exception of Farnsworth, whose contract we are stuck with for this year, the rest of the pen is good. I have confidence that Hawkins will turn it around. Remember Vizcaino last year? Everyone thought he was a bum and then he ended up saving the team’s arse for the next four months.
I think inflation is a problem and people on this forum must have a lot of dollars floating around at home- while we haven’t quite reached the depths of the Weimar Republic regarding our current currency crisis, it is still a big deal to release a player (Farnsworth, Giambi, etc) and eat $30 million in salary.
Until it is certain that some key players are healthy (ARod, Jorge in particular) there will be weird crap happening with the roster- we will have three catchers. Betemeit will have the longest bout of pink eye in recorded history. Duncan will remain in AAA. It is called CBA’s and options, you can’t magically release or send people down at will.
Finally, there is a reason why the crappier pitchers are in middle relief- it is known as logic and numbers- there have been managers, Tony Larussa for one, who have tried some of the ideas proposed here numerous times (starting closers, having relievers start games or having three long men throw 3 innings a piece in a game, having closers pitch in the 6th, 7th or 8th, etc.) and guess what it comes down to? The same system we have had for 50 friggin years.
Here is a news flash. The world is imperfect, even for the Yankees and I wonder what it would be like if you had 75 imbeciles scrutinizing everything you did at work on a daily basis. I don’t know if 75 people can fit in the Quiznos where some of you work, but maybe when can try.
Until then, when you can predict which relief pitchers will be lights out every year, afford to acquire them and pay a middle reliever 8 million a year, and are smart enough to assemble a roster, maybe you can be a GM. Until that time, keep staying at home playing 2nd Life.
“Brandon,
But Beckett is already established as a starting pitcher…we can’t say that about Joba…yes maybe he could be even better than Beckett, but I don’t see how we could find that out right now…”
it’s easy you see, you just find out, it’s like persuing the hot girl in H.S. either you got the guts or you don’t, I mean she’s winking at, blowing kisses, sending you love signs what your gonna wait till next year, or you gonna step up and be a man.
“What should we do, let Mo pitch 2 innings every night?”
ofcourse not
“What do you think will happen if the combination of Joba and Mo continues to work over the next few weeks, and the Yankees find themselves sitting in 1st place?
Do you think anyone would be brave enough to change that dynamic?”
YES
Giambi has zero range.. the hit by Thome was 2 feet from him.
Man I cannot wait till he is gone, he is such a plodder.
Cano continues to look terrible, man he is off to a slow start.
Moose looked good.
Hawkins mistake was the walk, the cabrera hit was a total bleeder but it was the 5 pitch walk.
Mariano is beyond good…..
So you don’t think there’s a psychological component to being a good closer? Don’t you think it’s tougher because you know that no one can bail you out-indeed, it’s your job to bail the other guy out…
It’s not just about “stuff.” It’s also about your mindset…All I’m saying is that not everyone can do it…we don’t know if all those great pitchers cited here could do it based on their stuff alone…
Smoltz is a good example of someone who could, but it’s an interesting question actually…
Wow I think the only way we would ever get a content fanbase on this forum is if the pitcher threw a no hitter and every Yankee position player got a hit each AB and didn’t make one fielding blunder. Wind them up, watch them perform.
There is probably not a player who is going to be perfect all season. There are also players who take longer to get going than others. They take turns by the way. It isn’t always the same player year after year.
Girardi played to win tonight and he didn’t play around. And that’s exactly what he should have done under the circumstances. If we were on a roll and 10 games over 500, maybe Hawkins gets to finish out the inning.
By the way, Mo and Joba coming in now and then for an extra inning isn’t the end of the world. Also, Ohlendorf may be needed for longer relief tomorrow with Hughes pitching. Girardi played it right. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Don’t always interpret a fast hook with inability on part of the reliever. Sometimes it will be to insure a badly needed win.
I agree with giving Giambi more time.
Great game, great managing, next time Hawkins and Traber do well they’ll get forum accolades. Until the next time that they don’t. Then the sanhedrin will be once again out for their heads. Wow, that’s a good way to support your team!
RustyJohn, your post smacks of a superiority complex, but I cut you maximum slack for your usage of the Weimar Republic. Well played!
“Smoltz is a good example of someone who could, but it’s an interesting question actually…”
great example ! because when he was a CL he was lights out too..but the difference is he saw the WS as a SP never saw the WS being in the BP.
Do you really think that if say, by June, the Yankees are in first place and you’ve had a series of brilliant late inning performances by Joba, they’re going to change that?
You’d have to be nuts to think that!
The plans might be for him to be a starter down the road, but that would be a long road…
“So you don’t think there’s a psychological component to being a good closer? Don’t you think it’s tougher because you know that no one can bail you out-indeed, it’s your job to bail the other guy out…
It’s not just about “stuff.†It’s also about your mindset…All I’m saying is that not everyone can do it…we don’t know if all those great pitchers cited here could do it based on their stuff alone…
Smoltz is a good example of someone who could, but it’s an interesting question actually…”
Give me a list of the top ten closers – the dominant guys – of 1999.
How many are still around?
“Do you really think that if say, by June, the Yankees are in first place and you’ve had a series of brilliant late inning performances by Joba, they’re going to change that?
You’d have to be nuts to think that!
The plans might be for him to be a starter down the road, but that would be a long road…”
He will be a starter this year.
Thank goodness the guys with the money on the line are doing the right thing.
“The plans might be for him to be a starter down the road, but that would be a long road…”
nope that road is this season..get use to it
“but I don’t see how we could find that out right now…”
I do.
Put him in the rotation.
Replacing the worst Yankee starter’s innings with Joba’s innings will put the team in more situations where you don’t NEED a perfect 8th inning guy because the team will be ahead more often going into the late innings.
“So you don’t think there’s a psychological component to being a good closer?”
Dynasty is Destiny, your emplyment of weak straw man arguments has already been called out, yet you persist. Clearly you need to spruce up your shtick with some apt historical analogies. Good night and good luck.
Hold on, I’ve got to sneeze…
M – I – E – N – T – K – I – E – W – I – C – Z
whew…guzentite.
So when are the Yanks pulling off this Minky/Marte deal. Get it over with already.
Where is it written that he will be a starter this year? I didn’t hear it stated that way…
Remember, plans are always subject to change…the sign of a good organization is flexibility, improvisation…
You do what works and keep doing what works even if it makes some people unhappy…
The goal is to win, and win now…and if winning now means we have to wait a long time to see Joba as a starter, than so be it…
one second …….
H – E – L – L N – O
god it must be a flu
Never.
“Where is it written that he will be a starter this year? I didn’t hear it stated that way…
Remember, plans are always subject to change…the sign of a good organization is flexibility, improvisation…
You do what works and keep doing what works even if it makes some people unhappy…
The goal is to win, and win now…and if winning now means we have to wait a long time to see Joba as a starter, than so be it…”
No, the goal is to win often.
Cashman and Hank have stated on multiple occasions that he will be a starter this year.
Get used to it.
Everyone, we need to ignore this fool. His mind is made up, and he will not listen to reason.
“So you don’t think there’s a psychological component to being a good closer? Don’t you think it’s tougher because you know that no one can bail you out-indeed, it’s your job to bail the other guy out…”
You do know that closer often do not pitch the toughest innings of a game, right?
For instance, they’ll often come in to start off an inning with no men on base and face the bottom of the order.
Kerry Woods could not handle starting at all last year and there was no way he could start this year because his arm had worn down so much.
He’s made a successful transition to closing – a guy who is throwing with half an arm.
Joba will be a starter the only questions is when. because of his innings limitation it ain’t happpening to later in the season if it will this yr.
I hear people talk about papelbum and he can be a starter etc, baloney he has 2 pitches Joba has 4… Joba may 3 yrs from now be the closer but with his talent he must get a chance to start, he has ACE ACE stuff, and that cannot be overlooked but it should be overlooked for now and he can best help the team presently in the pen…
“Where is it written that he will be a starter this year? I didn’t hear it stated that way…”
this got to be comedy
CB,
Yes but there’s a major flaw in that line of thinking…the closer has no margin for error. For instance, if Mo comes into the 9th with nobody on base, and the game is tied, can he stumble? No, he can’t. He must perform at the top of his game always-if he gives up a run, the game is over.
How can you say that about a starter with a full bullpen to back him up in case he has a bad night?
Kerry Wood blew another save tonight, can’t wait for Marmol to take his job.
Brandon,
No, seriously…can you cite a source declaring that he will start this year? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just interested if there is such a statement so that I could read it…
Dynasty, do you follow the Yankees at all?
so who was the most dangerous pitcher the Yankees faced
Randy Johnson or Kyung Kyoung Kim
Curt Schilling or Keith Foulke
Fausto Carmona or the 2 Rafael’s
John Lackey or K-Rod
Josh Beckett or who the hell was FLA’s CL
Justin Verlander or Joel Zumaya
let’s do the season game
Roy Holliday or Toronto’s BP
AJ Burnett or Toronto’s BP
Erick Bedard & Adam Lowen or Chad Bradford
…oh boy tough choice this is…
“Dynasty, do you follow the Yankees at all?”
I’m guessing not
“Josh Beckett or who the hell was FLA’s CL” – Ugueth Urbina
Yeah, I don’t get how you can have your own Yankee blog & don’t know the answer to your own question. Weird!
Ouch – “Former pitcher Ugueth Urbina was sentenced to 14 years in prison for the attempted murder of five workers on his family’s ranch, the Attorney General’s Office announced Wednesday. “The ruling was too severe,” said Jose Antonio Baez, a former attorney who represented Urbina.
(Updated 03/28/2007).”
Brandon,
The combination of Joba and Mo is superior to any combination of closers you can come up with…
No one wants to face that combination in the Post Season…
Uggie Urbina of cell block 22A South Wing?
Buddy,
No one said Joba would be in the rotation this year…If you can show me an article where Cash says that he’ll definitely be in the rotation THIS YEAR, I’d appreciate it…
how long have you been a Yankees fan Destiny
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3356490
Guess what? If wang gets bombed and gives up 7 runs Joba and rivera won’t be closing anything
Buddy,
Yes, Cash did say this year…I have to admit I didn’t read that…
Thank you for the link…but I wonder if he’ll stick to that if Joba continues to succeed in the bullpen…
Dynasty-
This Joba debate has been discussed for the last 6 months practically on a daily basis on this blog & a million other places.
Even so…I wonder if he’ll stick to that plan if Joba continues to dominate the 7th and 8th…
What do you think?
Yes, they will stick to that plan to put Joba in the rotation late this season. They already know that he can be a great setup man. They also think that he can be a great starter.
Yeah replace Giambi with Mientkiewicz. One struggling bat with a terrible one. Great plan