Today in The Journal News
-
- April
- 24
Mike Mussina was the man last night as the Yankees beat the White Sox.
Phil Hughes needs a good start tonight. This notebook also has an update on A-Rod, a mysterious broken bat and a visit from the mayor.
Bobby Abreu is off to a fast start this spring, especially compared to last season. This was the story I wrote for our early editions of the paper because the game didn’t get started until 8:11 p.m. in New York. Abreu then went 0 for 5 and struck out twice. Do I know my stuff or what?
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Yanks try for the sweep tonight with Phil Hughes facing Gavin Floyd.
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on Thursday, April 24th, 2008 at 3:57 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Pete,
Hughes pitched so well down the stretch last year…and who can forget how well he did in relief in the ALDS…
So, why do you think he’s struggling so much this year? Is it something mechanical? Location? Has the velocity on his fastball changed? What are you seeing?
Pitchers don’t just forget how to pitch (hmmm….sounds familiar), Phil’s going to be fine.
Moose cracks me up!
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04242008/sports/yankees/mussina_notches_252nd_career_win_107816.htm
‘CHICAGO – Mike MussinaMike Mussina surveyed the crowd of reporters waiting by his locker from across the room and said he wasn’t going to talk about what was easily his best game of the young season.
“I talked to Jamie [Moyer]. He is coming to talk for me,” Mussina said. ‘
7 more wins in a row and my 19-10 prediction is GOLD, baby !!!
After last night, can we all finally agree that it doesn’t matter what number Hawkins wears, the real problem is that he’s in a Yankee uniform at all? That guy is absolutely terrible and when he gets back to Yankee Stadium he’ll still get booed – not because of his race or his number, but because he stinks. Paul O’Neill was a winner, this guy’s a loser.
It’s a good thing the Yanks have some good arms in the minors, because just about every signing they’ve made for a pitcher has not worked out too well lately.
“After last night, can we all finally agree that it doesn’t matter what number Hawkins wears, the real problem is that he’s in a Yankee uniform at all?”
No. He had one HORRENDOUS outing that’s skewed his numbers. He hasn’t been bad, for a 6th/7th inning guy, other than that. He wasn’t a big signing. I’m much, MUCH more concerned about Kyle and Bruney.
CM,,,,amen to THAT !...I have been criticized for that very position on his ability to pitch since the first day the Yankees said that they were interested in signing his sorry keester. He may be a “great guy”....but that matters not. I am a great guy ( and HUMBLE too ! ) ;-)...but you don’t want me ever pitching for the Yankees.
“but because he stinks.”
Where were you when he threw five scoreless innings against the Red Sox in three straight outings? Where were you when he strung together five straight scoreless appearances?
They need to demote someone to get a long-man up here and let Ollie start his audition for the 8th inning role.
whozat….yes, go ahead and look at ALL that he has done and get back to me…for as long as we have this bum…he will only be a guy to give the ball to when you are either up or down 5 or more runs in a game….and what a great find that is, huh ?
Let’s see,,,Toronto, Tampa, Baltimore and the White Sox have all roughed him up big time. All of the other times he did “good” was either when the game was put away in our favor or we were way behind. You put him on YOUR team, whozat !
I can hold my emotions in check with Mussina and possibly 2 of the marginal members of the bullpen but Giambi is a whole other matter.
Brian Cashman needs to explore every possible option to get Giambi off the roster opposed to watching his rapidly declining skills drag this Yankee team down. The face of the team can change for the better with him out of the lineup even if he can’t be moved and makes a [very] occasional pinch hitting appearance. To keep putting him in the lineup day after day serves no purpose.
April is a month to establish what the team has. One roster spot by itself gets one decision out of the way.
You’re right stitches. I think Duncan will be our starting first baseman before june… I certainly hope so
I know Giambi isn’t doing well, and there should be better options. In a perfect world, it could be easily taken care of. But I seriously doubt that watching Giambi rot on the bench, with the occasional pinch-hitting appearance, is going to be a morale booster for the rest of the team.
Also, I realize that everyone loves Shelley Duncan. I like him, too. He’s enthusiastic and he has tremendous power and has shown more discipline at the plate than I thought he’d be capable of. But he may not be an improvement in the field over Giambi, and I’m perplexed that people are so anxious to make him the starter. They’d still need a defensive replacement for him in the late innings, wouldn’t they? I’m not convinced Shelley is an everyday player.
I understand that “the grass is always greener”—or that the player not being used is the player that should be being used. I do. But I would be very (happily) surprised if playing Duncan at first every day is the panacea that people are looking for. A permanent solution to the first base dilemma is not going to happen until the off-season, in my opinion.
Did anyone else think that Jason should have had that hit that went against Traber. I mean he was right there, a normal first baseman probably could have turned it into a double play.
jennifer – i do. giambi has no ability to move defensively. if its not hit right at him, he cant get it. it was so close to first base, it almost hit the runner.
Look at this garbage.
Two signs on the doors leading from the visitors’ clubhouse at U.S. Cellular Field to the first-base dugout read, “NO BOTTLED WATER ON THE BENCH.”
What’s this? Athletes can’t drink water? Even in the humid Chicago summers?
Here’s the explanation I got:
Gatorade is Major League Baseball’s “official sports drink.” So instructions were sent that no player could be seen drinking anything but Gatorade in the dugout. Not even Aquafina, which is the “official water” of MLB. Not even bottles of water with the labels removed.
White Sox clubhouse personnel said if players take bottled water onto the bench, all the bottled water will be removed from the clubhouse as punishment.
So remember, the biggest threat to baseball isn’t steroids or HGH or amphetamines or runaway ticket prices or four-hour games.
It’s water.
“Brian Cashman needs to explore every possible option to get Giambi off the roster”
Yes. I’m sure Cash hasn’t even thought of this.
“whozat….yes, go ahead and look at ALL that he has done and get back to me…”
Ok. He was really good last year, getting TONS of ground balls after he changed his approach once he got off the DL. He was an average middle reliever the year before. This year, he’s been good more often than not, except for that one outlier. Last night, he was bad and his teammates didn’t pick him up.
Still not sure why his bad outings this year outweigh his good ones AND his good season last year…Oh, right, because the only signings worth making are all-stars in their prime.
First base is the part of the team that needs the most immediate attention.
You can’t go through a season with a first baseman incapable of making even the most basic play.
Not every game is a blowout. The thought of Giambi at first in a close game is not comforting.
Billy Traber did his job last night. He got a groundball that an average first baseman catches and either turns an inning ending DP, or gets a force out at first for the second out.
You have to make that play. Then again, it seems we say that every night when it comes to routine plays at first.
The bullpen? The walk to Swisher hurt Hawkins. Can’t do that with a 4 run lead. Hard to blame him for the broken bat hit by Cabrera. Wasn’t a good outing but he’s better than the options they had last night.
The bullpen stuff will sort itself out. Bruney is hurt and he may have to go on the DL. If he does, they bring up a better option from AAA. Traber? If he can’t get lefties out, he won’t be here long. If he can, he’s an asset.
No matter how much some of us want Joba in the rotation, its not happening now so, he’s in the ‘pen. That’s a positive for the bullpen. Mariano is throwing the ball as well as he has in years. His cutter was NASTY last night.
The first base issue? I have a hard time believing we are going to see Giambi as the regular first baseman all season. Frankly, it would be shocking if that occurred. Just a question of who they find to replace him and when they do it.
I only wish Eric Duncan could get his act together. Everyone had high hopes for him. He was probably rushed.
And it kills me that our broadcasters didn’t even say that should have likely been an inning ending dp! I mean it went right to him!!
Any chance they bring up Rasner if Bruney goes to the dl. Than Ranser takes over the long man and Ross moves to a 1 inning appearance releiver?
Does anyone else find something wrong with this picture?
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/galleries/april_2008_back_pages/april_2008_back_pages.html
It looks like Jorge is right behind him, helmet is backwards, and Mike looks like he is pitching.
How rude is this?
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/04/23/2008-04-23_arods_newest_hitter_safe_at_home.html
The issue with Hawkins is simple. He’s a no lose signing.
Somebody has to pitch out of the bullpen until younger, better options (kids that are in the minors right now) are ready. That means, you need somebody until at least late-June/early July to be able to get the job done.
He’s got a one year deal. If it doesn’t work out, they can either trade or release him.
Right now, they need him.
You want Brian Bruney or Kyle Farnsworth pitching in games that are on the line? I don’t.
Either way, somebody other than Chamberlain and Rivera have to pitch in the bullpen.
Is Hawkins great? No. Is he better than Farnsworth and Bruney. From Mid-May of last year to right now, the answer is yes. The numbers back it up.
jennifer
The person behind Moose in the pic is liekly the Sox 1st base coach.
Bruney is hurt? That is news to me. What is the problem?
Traber is a problem and I’d rather have someone who can pitch to both righties and lefties for more innings. The bullpen is so bad that we need more and better options.
There was a large push to have Britton on the big club last year and he does have more major league experience. He could give us some innings.
The NYTimes has a nice write-up on Rasner – his attitude is positive:
“I pull for those guys, and I wish them nothing but the best,†Rasner said. “But we used 28 pitchers last year, so I know my chance is going to come. I just need to continue to work down here and stay sharp.â€
pat- that would explain it.
i had no clue Bruney was injured… when did this come out?
Bruney hurt his foot trying to cover first base on the play Giambi muffed the other night. X-Rays were negative but the Yankees are sending him for an MRI. He was unavailable to pitch last night and left the stadium in a walking boot.
Pat,
I do not know if you are right about that because look at the uniforms that they are wearing. The uniform behind Moose is not a White Sox Uniform.
Thanks SJ – (the unblinking eye of the blog!)
I’d DL him immediately and get a fresh arm up here. If CB is right about the need to moderate Ohlendorf’s innings clip we could use the reinforcements.
I think everyone will breathe easier when our starters log more innings. Moose did a nice job getting that going last night.
SJ44 I agree with your concerns about first base, with Giambi at first we have someone who cannot complete a 3-6-3 double play.
i dont wish injury on anyone, but like jennifer said, this might just be the break Rasner needs to get his call up.
for us Ohlendorf fans, also an opportunity for him to slide into a later-inning role and prove his value for when the Joba move is made.
Frank
You’re right. Its not a sox uniform.
I’m not a big wish injury on a guy. To me, that sets up bad karma.
If he is going to be out, I concur with the Rasner callup.
It accomplished two objectives. It gives you a longman/swing starter and it gets Ohlendorf back to the short inning role he trained for this year.
I consider myself an optimistic fan but if Hughes/Kennedy don’t improve, Rasner should take over. Go with the hot hand and give the others time to work it out in the minors. The bring them back when they’re ready.
“Noting his use of two-seam fastballs, in fact, Mussina couldn’t resist this line: “I pitched more like (Chien-Ming) Wang tonight than Moyer.”
Even in going to the two-seamer, Mussina dropped his arm angle at times to create more movement, which is hardly Moyer-like, but it did seem to be an effort to do something a little different.”- daily news
“Oddly, Mussina did not rely as heavily on off-speed pitches as he usually does. He and catcher Jorge Posada said he threw 80 to 85 percent fastballs. Said Mussina: “It just kind of worked that way. I usually don’t go out there planning not to throw curveballs. Curveballs are a pretty big part of my game.”- newsday
‘Mussina did not throw as many curveballs as usual but showed excellent command of his fastball.” new york times
“For just about everybody — except Moyer — everything works off your fastball,†Mussina said. “If you can’t make the other team respect it at all, location-wise or movement, even the best of-speed stuff isn’t going to be successful.â€- new york times
when the owner who has control over your demotion or release notices your poor performance it tends to get your attention. for all of mussina’s making jokes of hank’s moyer comments,there is no doubt he was aware a spotlight (target) was on him.
maybe hank being on his case is what mussina needs to apply what he obviously knows about how important location and command of the fast ball are. there were rumors he and girardi had a talk about him pitching up an inside more. i saw just a little of it.
mussina did mention that he jammed a lot of hitters with movement on the fastball. that’s obviously helpful too. i’d prefer just sticking the ball under a few chins for mussina, but if he wants to simply have the ball run in on hitters fine. whatever it takes to get them off the outside of the plate.
the fact the league is sitting on the outside of the plate makes it easy for mussina to jam hitters if he chooses to. he did it last night. once hitters back off he’ll have to be careful just running the fastball back on them because it’ll be in their wheel house.
jamming hitters worked last night because hitters were on top of the plate. once they move back it won’t work as well. that’s when he’ll have to go up and in if he wants to go inside effectively .
but at least it was a start last night. if mussina can reinvent himself to even remotely resemble a #3 starter, a lot of pressure comes off of hughes and kennedy.
jennifer – The Daily News is garbage – we don’t need links to prove it
No question Randy. At this point, Moose pitches like a #4 or #5 starter.
Hot and cold outings. But, if he can even last half a season pitching as if he was a #3 starter, that makes it much easier for Hughes and Kennedy to get their sea legs and become productive pitchers at this level.
Its an awful lot of pressure to ask a 21 year old and a 23 year old to be good out of the gate in NY. Frankly, its just about impossible.
Hughes is showing signs of turning the corner. Its why I hope tonight is a big night for him. Kennedy? Once he realizes its not college baseball and he doesn’t have to be afraid of contact, he will be fine.
I do find it funny though that for all of Moose’s snide remarks, he did change his pitching patterns last night. Whether it was Hank, Girardi, Eiland or a combination of all 3, a fire was lit under his butt and he actually made adjustments. Nice to see for a change.
Mike Mussina is a one-man comedy act.
It’s Jorge behind Moose. That is Moose throwing to first on the bunt in the first inning.
I find it far-fetched that a guy who has just passed Gibson and Ford in career wins needs Hank to get him going.
It seemed to me last night that Moose didn’t jam guys so much as fool them by changing speeds. Mo was jamming guys left and right (he has been awesome this year) but Moose was getting guys off balance with his change and cutters.
Best of all, he did not allow walks so when his C+ fastball got smacked, it was only one run. When Moose pitches against the Red Sox, he always gives up walks and then Manny plates them.
That photographer won’t be around on Friday, will he? Might have my wife go out the back door.
” Whether it was Hank, Girardi, Eiland or a combination of all 3, a fire was lit under his butt and he actually made adjustments. Nice to see for a change.”
amen to that.
doreen last night got me thinking about posada’s role in how mussina pitches. she suggested maybe girardi had a talk with posada too about mussina’s need to come inside aggressively .
posada has no problem asking mariano to come up and in, so i’m thinking that posada may simply not trust mussina to go up and in with his 86 mph fastball. but for some strange reason posada doesn’t call for many if any up and in pitches to wang who does throw hard.
wang needs to go up and in with an occasional four seam fastball simply to stop hitters from cheating up on wang to get the sinker before it sinks. this was part of neil allen’s strategy package he gave wang when he taught him the sinker. allen told wang to go up and in on his own if he had too. if you watch closely you’ll see him do it occasionally even when he’s not getting a target up there. it’s easy to see because it’ll be a four seam fastball with no sink or run to it.
i like posada so much it almost feels sacrilegious to question his calling of pitches and location, but i wonder if he doesn’t need a tune-up on his choice of pitches and location from girardi.
something to watch.
We dont need to move Joba out of the Pen ever just keep him in there until Mo is done and when he is promote him to the closer who else on the team do you trust more coming out of the pen besides Mo and Joba. All we need is a long man because we need to move Ollie up and allow him to throw the 7th and when ever Joba isn’t avalible.
“i like posada so much it almost feels sacrilegious to question his calling of pitches and location, but i wonder if he doesn’t need a tune-up on his choice of pitches and location from girardi.”
Doesn’t the pitcher ultimately decide what type of pitch they want to throw and the location of the pitch. If Moose or Wang or anybody else wants to throw a pitch to a certain location it doesn’t matter what Posada calls. They can shake off every sign until they get what they want to throw. At least I thought that was how it’s done.
When Hawkins maintains a 9.00 PLUS ERA, everyone will change their mind about this being a no lose signing, IMO.
“I think I had really good movement today. It seemed like I jammed a lot of guys,” Mussina said. “They were diving out over the plate and the ball ran it back in on them. The movement was my biggest asset today.” peter abraham lohud
jamming by movement is hard to see because it just means the ball is running in from where the hitters are putting the sweet spot of the bat. they see the ball fine, but it sneaks in on them. i didn’t see it either as tkin dc said, but it makes sense that was part of what was happening last night.
mussina definitely was doing something different.
cj: that makes sense. Posada would be running up the third baseline to try and get the ball. That is definitely Jorge though.
One of the things that was noted in last night’s game was that Mussina did NOT shake off Posada. Which was why I thought there might have been a conversation with both Posada and Mussina. In addition, they commented that Posada seemed more forceful behind the plate, and that Mussina had a nice rhythm going, probaby because he wasn’t shaking off every other pitch.
In the past it would seem Mussina did not prefer to pitch to Posada. They seemed to work well together last night.
Pitchers & catchers go over the opposing roster and signs before the game. The pitcher throws his bullpen warmup piches to a bullpen catcher and for the last group of pitches to the catcher of the game who should get a feel of what pitches are working prior to the start of the game.
The 1st innings indicates location and what breaking pitches are working best off the fastball.
Scouting reports play into what may be thrown to the individual hitters plus signals relayed from the dugout to the catcher when necessary. The pitcher and catcher critique the previous inning when returning to the dugout.
If a pitcher is getting tired or not locating as the game moves on, the catcher will see it quickly. Signals can change from inning to inning in the event of good sign stealers on the opposing team.
I have to give credit to Moose last night. He abandoned his stubborness (at least for last night) and made adjustments and went with what was working. That 2 seamer coming at different arm angles had hitters off balance for the most part. Mussina knows how to pitch, I don’t think anyone will argue that. My problem (actually his problem) has been his inability to adjust from being what he ‘was’ to what he ‘is’. If he figures this out, it could be our saving grace for the kiddies to develop. I don’t know about you guys but I am rooting for him to succeed.
Moose and Mo were great last night. In between … eh. I have a new theory that Rivera is like a drug that managers get addicted to, hence they keep using him in the eighth inning even though they say they want to cut back.
raymagnetic-
remember when posada and el duque used to have all the arguments on the mound. the pitcher has the final say, but it becomes a problem when the pitcher is shaking off the catcher a lot. it’s ideal when the catcher is thinking right along with the pitcher.
especially with young pitchers, they will be reluctant to shake off the catcher. with mussina needing to reinvent himself , wang developing new pitches, and hughes and kennedy trying to find themselves, it wouldn’t hurt for girardi to talk with posada a lot about what they want to do.
i don’t like varitek, but it does appear he spends a lot more time than jorge on pre game preparation. maybe this is a time where jorge is going to have to do it more.
as i said before, it’s just something to watch. maybe nothing to it.
tjf714 – I’m addicted to him too.
Jaewon & CJ:
So Jorge got to first base before Moose even threw the ball for the bunt. If you look at Moose’s hands and arm and expressions he is not throwing to first base. I think they just took a picture from another game and put it on the front page…how Jorge is behind Moose I have absolutely no clue.
“When Hawkins maintains a 9.00 PLUS ERA, everyone will change their mind about this being a no lose signing, IMO.”
Perhaps people who realize that one horrendous outlier does not define a bullpen pitcher won’t have as much trouble as you.
Would his ERA be great without that heinous outing in his second of the season? No. But it’d be a lot better. And I have a hard time really penalizing him for much more than a leadoff walk yesterday. He gave up a bloop, and then Traber gave up what should’ve been an out—at least.
Isn’t there another stat that takes into account inherited runners and all that? Where can I find that data?
Thurman’s Ghost
April 24th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Harlan Chamberlain will soon be joining Phil Rizzuto in Yankee Hell. – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
This post gets serious recognition as DUMB /IGNORANT post of the year.
“i don’t like varitek, but it does appear he spends a lot more time than jorge on pre game preparation.”
Based on what?
You make a lot of claims that really don’t seem based much in reality…like the Yankees having a bunch of vets with freak injuries, and so that means the organization doesn’t see the import of a good strength and conditioning guy. Not that the S&T guy they had was bad, or that they didn’t get guys to buy into his program, but that the whole organization doesn’t see how important an S&T staff can be. Or, Moose usually shakes off his catcher a lot and so Jorge must not spend much time in game prep. Not that Moose is stubborn and won’t do what’s good for him, not that Moose doesn’t feel comfortable with a certain pitch on certain nights…but that Jorge is lazy and doesn’t work before games. What evidence do you have for that?
jashell—There’s nothing like a good hit of Mo, is there?
“In the past it would seem Mussina did not prefer to pitch to Posada. They seemed to work well together last night.”
doreen-
it makes sense what you first wondered last night. all of this sort of thing is behind closed doors stuff so we have to read the tea leaves to figure what’s really happening.
it’s not like mussina can say ” finally that dunderhead posada called the pitches that i wanted him to call”
or posada can say ” finally that soft tossin egghead put some movement on his fastball like i’ve asked him forever”.
all i know is it was great to watch.
Cj is right! This is Nick Swishers bunt but I dont think its the first inning. Moose launched it to first for the out
whozat….after 20 appearances, if his ERA is still 9.00 plus, will you agree that he needs to go ba-bye ?
“Isn’t there another stat that takes into account inherited runners and all that? Where can I find that data?”
.
Hold up, dude ! isnt’ the whole POINT of a relief pitcher to NOT allow runs ?...
.
and FYI, so far 40% ( 2 out of 5 ) of his inherited runners HAVE scored.
.
Trust me, in a month, you’ll be glad he is either gone or tearing up AAA.
But shouldn’t Moose be facing Jorge…I am just trying to figure out the camera angle that would put Jorge in the back of Moose but still get shot of Moose’s face.
I don’t think he meant how many inherited runners he allowed to score but how many of Hawkins’ earned runs were allowed by other pitchers.
“it’s not like mussina can say †finally that dunderhead posada called the pitches that i wanted him to callâ€
or posada can say †finally that soft tossin egghead put some movement on his fastball like i’ve asked him foreverâ€.
all i know is it was great to watch.”
Okay, last year was the first year another catcher has caught more than 5 games while Mussina was pitching.
It was also the only year that Mussina wasn’t better with Jorge catching.
I think last year was probably an aberration and there’s never been a problem between Moose and Jorge.
During Moose’s tenure with the Yankees he’s been far superior with Jorge catching than any other catcher.
OK…and one last thing…how do you take OUT Hawkins’ one HORRENDOUS outing ?...didn’t it happen ?...and since it already happened once, don’t you think it could happen again ?...I have never understood that ” If you forget about the 3 games where he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn, his stats aren’t that bad ! ”....HELLO ???? are you serious ???
I can’t decide if this whole LaTroy Hawkins argument is stupid or great. Stupid because he’s a mid-to-late innings bullpen guy that is going to be average and the Yankees knew that. If he’s as good as you want him to be, he’d be an 8th or 9th inning guy. He isn’t. He wasn’t signed to be that either. So who cares?
Great because, if we are arguing about him, that means that the team must be playing decently. I mean, why complain about Hawkins if there’s bigger issues?
“But shouldn’t Moose be facing Jorge…I am just trying to figure out the camera angle that would put Jorge in the back of Moose but still get shot of Moose’s face.”
The picture was probably taken from the first base side of the field. Moose fielded the bunt so you would figure Jorge would be behind him.
Don Vito,
One outing does not define a pitcher, but early in the season it’s hard to see on really bad outing and bloated stats and cringe. Nobody’s pretending it didn’t happen. What we’re saying is that he’s not a 12 ERA pitcher, even if it looks that way now. Just like Cano isn’t a .200 hitter and Hughes isn’t a sub-.500 pitcher.
EricVA
April 24th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I don’t think he meant how many inherited runners he allowed to score but how many of Hawkins’ earned runs were allowed by other pitchers.
.
EITHER WAY….let the excuses fly…if a pitcher allows the runner to get on, then the next pitcher lets him score…that’s tough !....If he kept people off the bases and did his job, we wouldn’t be putting together all this BS about his ERA is a fluke and if it wasn’t for his teammates, he’s be better CRAPOLA….Again, in a month, he’s gone, then you all can say we gave up on him too soon. I say 20 innings of 9.00 PLUS ERA is 20 innings too many….and with the money he is gettting paid….pushing 9.00 PLUS on his ERA is NOT doing his job and he needs to GO !
Don Vito – who should be in the bullpen? Really?
You seem to have no concept for what LaTroy is – he’s not an ace reliever. He’s an extra arm, who is generally consistently ok – the kind of reliever you use when you’re up 4+ runs or losing by 3+. A ‘don’t lose the game for us’ reliever.
I think he’ll finish the season with an ERA between 4 and 5.
Don Vito –
But it sounds like you would actually get some satisfaction out of him failing. You gotta root for the guy, because you want the Yankees to win! And he’s had more good outings so far than bad ones.
I think we all get how you feel about Hawkins. Really, we do.
The bottom line is the same as last year’s bottom line; the bullpen is inconsistent with the exception of Mariano and, now, Joba (though I have a mental block against classifying Joba as a bullpen guy
) Every one of them has had very good outings, middling outings, and pretty bad outings. Every single one of them, except for Mo and Joba.
Peter Gammons is sometimes a babbling Red Sox idiot, sometimes an anti-Yanks propogandist, and sometimes both.
If Moose changed his approach last night and that was the reason for his success, lets see how long he can sustain re-inventing his game like that. He has to change his approach because they way he was pitching wasn’t working. He seems smart enough to figure something out. Time will tell.
If Moose can pitch 5 or 6 decent innings at least half the time he goes out, and he’s about on par with a league average 4th/5th best starter, maybe that’s the best the team should expect from him. If he does better, great. But I’m more hopeful Hughes and Kennedy can start to get their games sorted out in May. They’re both better than they’ve shown out of the gate, and I think they’ll both have better games in June than April. I also think Hughes or Chamberlain will be better starters than Moose in the 2nd half. Maybe Kennedy can get there later this year too.
Talk about brains, Giambi doesn’t even look smart enough to change his approach to hitting when there’s an over-shifting defense in front of him. He proves this just about every time he hits the ball into the shift instead of trying to put it somewhere left of the SS, whether its a weak squibber or a line drive. I won’t even go into his defense.
Somebody please find me the bullpen that has 7 consistently great pitchers. Otherwise this argument should be over.
Eric –
I think Hawkins was signed to be in the mix for the 8th inning. He’s getting paid like an 8th inning guy and he had a good enough year last year that it was understandable.
Also the Viz was overpaid as a free agent and didn’t make any sense to resign. (not to mention the fact that Torre scorched his arm.
“Also the Viz was overpaid as a free agent and didn’t make any sense to resign. (not to mention the fact that Torre scorched his arm.”
Don’t forget the free draft pick the Yankees got.
“Jaewon & CJ:
So Jorge got to first base before Moose even threw the ball for the bunt. If you look at Moose’s hands and arm and expressions he is not throwing to first base. I think they just took a picture from another game and put it on the front page…how Jorge is behind Moose I have absolutely no clue.”
Jorge was up the third base line. The Cameras are next to the dugout behind 1st base.
OK…I’ll be clear…I WANT him to do well…because he is a Yankee now….However, I said it when we signed him ( and remember how everyone said he would be taking the Viz’s place ? ),,,,and I’ll say it now….he will melt under the pressure of just BEING a Yankee….and how long does a 9.00 Plus ERA reliever warrant staying on the team ?....I’ll BET that if Cashman thought that Hawkins was going to be 20 appearances into the season with a 9.00 – 10.00 ERA, he would never have signed him. And an ERA of between 4-5.00…on the YANKEES ?....you are FUNNY !...The only way Hawkins gets to that ERA range is he is pitching for the Rays where failure is accepted.
Eric VA
>> Somebody please find me the bullpen that has 7 consistently great pitchers. Otherwise this argument should be over.
That’s a great point. The 2002 Angels come to mind (though I don’t recall if all 7 were great) and the Tigers from 2005 were also dominant in the ‘Pen….all 7 though? Not to my knowledge. Those are the two best bullpens in my recent memory.
Vito – please go back to your video game, where the Yankees are 152-10 in the regular season with a team bullpen ERA of 0.53.
In regard to Hawkins, I haven’t seen much of him through the years. He is in his 14th major league season, which is quite an accomplishment in itself.
I am curious about one thing, though. Has he always had that weird style of kinda showing the ball to the hitter before going into his delivery? Seems like most pitchers try to do just the opposite.
I know that very few pitchers have perfect Nolan Ryan type mechanics, but I can’t remember anyone else with Hawkins’ quirky style.
Lupica has lost his mind. Expanding his universe into politics. Political pursautions aside, why is he writing this type of an article?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/04/24/2008-04-24_why_hillary_is_still_eating_obamas_dust-1.html?page=0
Lupica is a tool. Due to that fool, Lisa Olsen quit her job at the Daily News.
My main concern about this team during & after last season was & obviously still is the bullpen.
Obviously Hawkins is not the answer in the only real move the Yankees made to upgrade the woeful pen.
How Hank S. can call it “idiotic” to leave Joba as a set-up man beyond me. He is as close to a sure thing as exists in baseball for an inning or two.
Let’s be honest. Anyone coming in to pitch beside Mo & Joba scares us all to death.
Last night’s near blown waste of a great effort by Mussina just another example of why Joba must stay right where he is!!!!!
He can help us win twice as many games in relief as set-up/closer guy than as a starter no matter how good he were to prove to be, & I believe his chances of a long dominating career will be better in relief. Besides, who are you going to bring in to hold a great effort by him?
Yankees were at their best when they owned the 7th, 8th, & 9th inning. Joba in the pen will help perpetuate that winning formula.
Ian & Phil will come around & both be very good for a long time.
I understand that there are way too many teams & not enough pitchers to go around, but if the strong arms in the farm system are not capable of bolstering our pen I am very worried about our chances to win it all.
V = you are funny !
If Girardi has confidence in Farnsworth, he’s shown little of it.
Farnsworth will have to show in the next 5 weeks if he’s worthy of being kept or be part of a deal.
sounds like Lupica is finally making some sense… maybe he should quit the sports thing and stick to politics full time.
I haven’t explored the comments for this post thoroughly, but I want to point this out (if it hasn’t been already).
Take a look at the following two pitchers lines last night:
IP H R ER BB SO
7.072214
7.042213
Which performance is better? Well, the top one is the ace of the New York Mets, Mr. Johan Santana pitching against the nasty Washington Nationals.
Below his line is the aging, #5 starter, with absolutely no talent or gas left in the tank, Mike Mussina.
I’m going to have to say, with Posada behind the plate, Mussina has been very good this season. Excuse his Boston performance. He’s going to give up the big hit. But last night he was dominant and still can be.
Maddux, Glavine, Moyer, etc have all lost velocity and can still pitch. If anyone has great junk balls, it’s Mike Mussina. When he’s locating like he was last night, he’s nearly unhittable.
The White Sox are one of the best offenses in baseball this season, so I don’t want to hear “it was the White sox! they suck!”
Moose pitched very, very well last night and was very efficient with his pitches. He went above and beyond what we needed. If he had pitched 6 with 3ER or 4 ER, we still win that game.
He won’t go 7 with 2ER every game, but he is solidly better than Kennedy and could even solidify the #3 before Hughes will. If Mussina can pitch like he has so far this season (minus the one poor start 3.0 w/ 5 ER) then we are in great shape.
“Yankees were at their best when they owned the 7th, 8th, & 9th inning. Joba in the pen will help perpetuate that winning formula.”
No. The Yankees were at their best when their rotation had horses that could go 7/8 innings every game and give you a quality start.
“when the owner who has control over your demotion or release notices your poor performance it tends to get your attention.”
Like the prospect of being hanged in the morning, being the target of Hank’s baleful remarks tends to concentrate the mind.
Only nutjobs like Lupica would support Obama.
“No. The Yankees were at their best when their rotation had horses that could go 7/8 innings every game and give you a quality start.”
So true.. I think the best argument I’ve seen for moving Joba to the rotation was that over the past several years we have only lost one playoff game due to a bad 8th inning (By Tom Gordon). I wonder how many we have lost due to poor starting pitching (a lot)? Good starting pitching is more valuable than a good bullpen and Joba will be a very good starting pitcher. There is a reason why starting pitchers get paid significantly more money than relievers—they are more valuable.
The number of idiots in the world never ceases to amaze me.
raymagnetic-
don’t think for a second that i don’t like jorge as a catcher. i think he’s the best overall catcher in the league. and i even think he’s another de facto co captain on the team. but maybe the pattern they used to use just doesn’t work because mussina has dropped just enough velocity that the old pattern doesn’t work anymore.
posada strikes me as a see the ball, hit the ball kind of guy. and that can be a good thing. girardi seems like he could add a few wrinkles to what posada is calling for behind the plate.
with mussina this becomes important simply because he has to trick batters now that his fastball speed has dropped so low. the encouraging thing is that he did it last night which means he can do it again.
V, if you would stop looking in the mirror every day, you would notice one less.
I hope we get a good outing from Phil tonight.
Going to back to an argument before…Hawkins has been good, and has been bad. He’s inconsistent
“YankeesTech April 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Only nutjobs like Lupica would support Obama.”
Only a nutjob would post that sentence.
“Going to back to an argument before…Hawkins has been good, and has been bad. He’s inconsistent”
That’s Hawkins and every other reliever that Cashman has brought in here.
quoted for the truth !
2001 Andy Pettitte cracked under pressure
2002 the whole SP staff cracked
2003 David Wells and Jeff Weaver
2004 Tom Gordon and Mariano Rivera (rare)
2005 Randy Johnson cracked and Al Leiter was horrendous and who can forget Bubba and Gary in RF
2006 Mussina, Randy Johnson, Jaret Wright, Lidle (god bless his soul but he made it worse)
2007 Wang, Clemens
only once in the last 6 yrs. has the BP really been an issue, the most of our losses came because of our SP melting down.
Hey.
Good solid win all the way around last night. It is great to win the first two of a road series as it takes the pressure of this eve to take the series. Good Luck to Hughes.
I took the afternoon off to go out and watch Masterson’s first MLB start. The entire walk to the Sports bar here in
town I will tell myself to order a diet coke instead of a beer. As soon I sit down and see the game I will forget evrything I told myself and order a pint of beer. Such is life I guess when you have Nick Nolte type self control.
Have a great day,
-dennis
Good defense behind Phil, some early runs and Posada behind the plate = win number one for him !
don’t be suprised if he gets rocked he’s being rushed up for a spot start, but the slider, sinker could get him enough groundouts to get to the 6th w/ a lead.
Dennis – Enjoy yourself. Think of us poor soles still at work.
Phil tonight: 6.1 IP – 2 ER – 5 K – W
Brandon.
I would not be surprised to see him get knocked around.
He does have tremendous numbers in Double A Portland (Sea Dogs)...
The Angels aint no Double A.
I think most of you agree though that watching a prospect/rookie pitch is great theatre. Usually though the anticipation is better than the product.
-dennis
Joe.
I will have a diet coke for you. That is subject to change however…
-dennis
it is a joy Dennis, it is enjoy yourself and luck to Masterson today, not too much
Quote of the day:
“When the old guy doesn’t do well they want the young guy,” Mussina said. “That’s part of baseball. You can’t get upset. It will happen to all of us.”
A player could retire when he is on top but this is rare. (Few can resist the idea of playing for a few more years and making a lot of money.) Therefore the vast majority of good players will end up at some point in a situation like Mussina is in now.
Let’s show some gratitude for the enjoyment he provided over the years as his career winds down!
Mussina’s humor has came out this season, I wonder what’s his next quote
Someone mentioned Girardi’s degree of confidence in Farnsworth …
One thing I did notice against the Red Sox is when Farnsworth threw behind Manny’s head, Manny didn’t charge the mound. Look back on Manny blowing a gasket at Clemens for throwing one high and OUTSIDE when the Sox were ‘owed’ more than one or two protection pitches, that’s sort of uncharacteristic of Manny.
It also tells me there could have been some intent in Aardsma hitting A-Rod before if Manny could appear so calm about it. Was Aardsma suspended? Noooooooooo.
.... Farnsworth’s effectiveness as a deterrent aside, there does need to be someone in the ‘pen who Girardi knows he can bring in with less than a 3 run lead and hold it. You can’t keep him just to make statements like the Manny pitch, which is where he’d really be most effective.
On the other hand, Charlie Finley wasted a roster spot on the early 70s A’s, listing Herb Washington as a ‘Designated Runner’ of all things. Could we get away with listing Farnsworth as a ‘Designated Intimidator’, have him come in for one batter between routine suspensions?
I could see it now … new role, new agent, new image … maybe it’d be Scott Boras re-stating Papelbon’s approach to setting precedents in closers’ contracts. “Physical enforcers in the NHL make a median salary of $$$ and so my client deserves to make … ”
Nah.
I see we are still debating the where the picture is from
Let’s hope Chicago doesn’t pull an upset and get the Yankees to 0 runs on 2 hits tonight.
People on here talk about pitchers having “Bugs Bunny” pitches. Well from what I saw last night Mussina looked like he was pitching to Elmer Fudd at times.
He threw a change-up to one of the Sox that looked like a knuckleball. The guy almost fell out of his shoes swinging.
The league will adjust to this, they always do. But until then we could see a period like last summer when Moose ran off several good games in a row.
I would love nothing more than to be able to say I was wrong about him being done.
The Lupica political column makes a lot more sense than most of his sports columns, in my opinion.
My uncle wrote to Lupica when he first started out. It was regarding some clueless article he wrote. And what a shock, he didn’t get a reply. Good to see his ego was always big.
Harold Reynolds lands with SNY.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/04/24/2008-04-24_harold_reynolds_joins_sny_as_mets_analys.html
I’d love to see Moose do well too. He’s real like able and it would only help the team, but I’m not expecting him to win 15 or 16 games this year.
Brandon…
“quoted for the truth !
2001 Andy Pettitte cracked under pressure”
I don’t think Pettitte cracked under pressure. Moreover, the D-Backs figured out that he was tipping his pitches.
Go back and watch that game. Every time Pettitte would throw his fastball, his windup was simple.
But when he was set to throw a curve, he did a weird, motion. I cannot take credit for picking up on this obviously, I read it in Buster Olney’s book, LNOTYD.
When he would throw a curve, he would come to the set, and make a motion over his stomach with his hands, as Buster described it, almost the same motion a pregnant woman would make caressing her belly. Thats why the D-Backs blew him out of game six.
They picked up on the habit and hammered him.
Last Night of the Yankees Dynasty… a great read. I’m sure most in here have read it already…
But Brandon, I do agree on years 2002-2007!
I can’t believe I wrote “liek a pregnant woman caressing her belly” on a sports blog… (though thats exactly how Olney described it.)
Where do I send in my ‘Man-Card’ for this violation, and is it a one week or two week suspension?!?!?
Mike Lupica’s an utter moron. Never mind politics, he could probably write more interesting computer repair manuals or gay porno copy than he writes sports articles. But I don’t think I’d have the stomach to read his stuff no matter what the topic.
Mak ethe world a better place and punch Mike Lupica in the face…
How many time sdo you think Mitch Albom or Bob Ryan want to come out of there chairs and STRANGLE him on Sunday’s Sports Reporters on ESPN?
NO MORE POLITICS !!!
BB77 that’s a 15 yard penalty and loss of down.
The Person behind Mussina in that picture is Posadas ghost!! That makes the most sense and im sticking to it.
LOL Ansky… pretty good…
I think the big misconception that people in the “Joba as a reliever” camp have is that the reason that Joba is going into the rotation is because he can succeed as a starter. I think everyone in the “Joba as a starter camp” can agree that the reason that Joba should be a starter is because the thought is that he will absolutely dominate, and be a front of the rotation guy. We are thinking ACE here.
If Joba goes into the rotation, and just succeeds, I think at that point you can have the conversation about the guy going back to the pen and killing hitters with his fastball slider combo for years to come. But the point is that the kid has the potential to be one of the best starters in the league. That kind of pitcher does not grow on trees and should not under any condition be wasted sitting down in the bullpen until the 8th or 9th inning.
Official word on the picture.
Posted by Mark Feinsand on April 24, 2008 12:47 PM
There is something everyone will need to remember when Joba moves to the rotation. It might take him a couple years to hit stride there. It took Clemens a couple years when he was brought up in Boston. If Joba goes 16-8 his first full year, please remember it’s too early to call for him to go back to the bullpen.
Wait & see what he accomplishes after 3 or 4 full years in the rotation. If he avoids injury, that 3-4 years could be just a good start.
Part of why I say this is because CM Wang got to 50 wins about as soon as anyone in recent years, in terms of number of games. He did it sooner than Johan Santana did. Yet still, many people are saying he’s not all that good.
Doc Gooden was an extreeeemely rare case of a guy winning so much, so early in his career, and at such a young age. Wang got to 50 wins on a game pace close to him. Will Joba have to go 50-10 over his first 2 years to satisfy everyones expectations?
It’s hard to get a read on what kind of season Mussina is going to have. He’s only walked 4 in 27+ innings, but has given up 7 homers, while only striking out 10, in the same span. If you take away Manny Ramirez’s last 4 AB’s versus Mussina (4 for 4 with 3 HR’s and a 2-run double for 6 RBI’s), his stats don’t look too bad. Of course, we can’t do that.
I saw he hit 88 mph a few times on Gameday’s gun. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If Mussina is throwing 85-87 mph, he’s going to be in for a long, long season. If he’s throwing closer to, and touching 90 mph, he can be effective. It’s still April, and 88 mph is something I hadn’t seen from Mussina till yesterday, so maybe there’s hope. Some people will say it’s only a couple mph so what’s the big deal, well, for every 2mph you add to a pitch, it travels to the plate at .01 seconds faster. So a guy tossing 85mph is going to give a batter .475 seconds of reaction time, while the guy tossing 90mph will be at .45 seconds. A 100 mph pitch is .40 by example. It might not seem like much, but it’s the difference between fouling a pitch off, or missing it, to putting it in play. A guy facing an 85 mph pitch is able to sit on something, since his reaction time is increased. Obviously this doesn’t mean that Mussina can’t be successful. It simply points out that he’ll have to be perfect more often than not, if he’s tossing it at 85. Mussina throws strikes, but he doesn’t like to throw inside. That’s why he needs every mph he can get.