Comments on: Joba has looked great in the bullpen - now get him out of there and into the rotation http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/ A Yankees Blog by Journal News beat writer Peter Abraham Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:10:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: bru http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333955 bru Thu, 01 May 2008 13:01:06 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333955 LathamJoe you are wrong.the red sox won because they had solid pitching 1-3,and 3 more excellent starters and a true ace so the need for pap in the rotation was not there and cleveland still almost beat them.starting pitching is more important then the pen.the sox were 6 deep,the yankees were 2- 3 deep.the only way you put a pitcher with joba's talent in the pen is if injury was a concern,not enough pitches or he couldn't handle starting and that isn't the case.they drafted him as a starter,brought him up as a starter,gave him a signing bonus as a starter and they have no ace,moose and pettite will be gone next year and after that all they have is wang,they will need 4 starters and hughes and kennedy are not a certainty.they might get an ace if they are lucky but where will they get 4 starters without paying or giving up the farm system?they have alabadejo,melancon,horne,sanchez,brackman,betances,cox,bruney,one of them will make it i guarantee.we will get a look at sanchez i hope this year and brtackman could of went number one if not for tj surgery,brackman will be in the mix next year and was clocked if you believe at 101 miles an hr,betances in 2009 or 2010 so hopefully we have pitchers in the minors that will make it along with hughes and kennedy but we better get our act together because if lester and buchholz keep pitching well they will be tough to beat and they are producing position players by the boatloads.the yankees are going in the right direction but it is painfull to watch them being behind the red sox as far as producing talent,ellsbury,pedroia,lowrie and many more plus more pitching on the way,scary.the good thing is that the yankees have better and more pitching talent then the sox and very good catching prospect and another great catching prospect in motero who on the 20-80 power scale is ranked at an 80.hughes needs to figure out his mechanics and develop a cutter,have mo teach it to him,he is only using his fasball and curve so the hitters are sitting on it,no guessing involved. LathamJoe you are wrong.the red sox won because they had solid pitching 1-3,and 3 more excellent starters and a true ace so the need for pap in the rotation was not there and cleveland still almost beat them.starting pitching is more important then the pen.the sox were 6 deep,the yankees were 2- 3 deep.the only way you put a pitcher with joba’s talent in the pen is if injury was a concern,not enough pitches or he couldn’t handle starting and that isn’t the case.they drafted him as a starter,brought him up as a starter,gave him a signing bonus as a starter and they have no ace,moose and pettite will be gone next year and after that all they have is wang,they will need 4 starters and hughes and kennedy are not a certainty.they might get an ace if they are lucky but where will they get 4 starters without paying or giving up the farm system?they have alabadejo,melancon,horne,sanchez,brackman,betances,cox,bruney,one of them will make it i guarantee.we will get a look at sanchez i hope this year and brtackman could of went number one if not for tj surgery,brackman will be in the mix next year and was clocked if you believe at 101 miles an hr,betances in 2009 or 2010 so hopefully we have pitchers in the minors that will make it along with hughes and kennedy but we better get our act together because if lester and buchholz keep pitching well they will be tough to beat and they are producing position players by the boatloads.the yankees are going in the right direction but it is painfull to watch them being behind the red sox as far as producing talent,ellsbury,pedroia,lowrie and many more plus more pitching on the way,scary.the good thing is that the yankees have better and more pitching talent then the sox and very good catching prospect and another great catching prospect in motero who on the 20-80 power scale is ranked at an 80.hughes needs to figure out his mechanics and develop a cutter,have mo teach it to him,he is only using his fasball and curve so the hitters are sitting on it,no guessing involved.

]]> By: bru http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333943 bru Thu, 01 May 2008 12:39:22 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333943 it is like having tiger woods as you're golf partner and using him on holes 15-18 instead of 1-14 or having arod pinch hit.27 outs in a game,i would rather have joba for 21 outs instead of 3-6.someone always comes along for setup or closer you just have to keep putting guys in untill you find one.in the majors you need 1-3 solid just like the red sox who are looking very tough now,dice k is pitching lights out,buchholz and lester are also looking good.they have 4 real good starters and wakefield.i don't like the way this is turning out. it is like having tiger woods as you’re golf partner and using him on holes 15-18 instead of 1-14 or having arod pinch hit.27 outs in a game,i would rather have joba for 21 outs instead of 3-6.someone always comes along for setup or closer you just have to keep putting guys in untill you find one.in the majors you need 1-3 solid just like the red sox who are looking very tough now,dice k is pitching lights out,buchholz and lester are also looking good.they have 4 real good starters and wakefield.i don’t like the way this is turning out.

]]> By: bru http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333935 bru Thu, 01 May 2008 12:28:52 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-333935 you n eed starting pitcfhing to win.the yankees are using bjoba less than 50 percent of the time because of their starting pitching.what good is it for joba to look great and mo to have 50 saves if they win 88 games?you have to be solid 1-3 and a decent 4th to win and the yankees are solid 1-2 and are not even close to being the best 1-2.if they had a true ace,wang number 2,pettitte number 3 they would be fine.how can you have a 209 million dollar payroll and be that bad? you n eed starting pitcfhing to win.the yankees are using bjoba less than 50 percent of the time because of their starting pitching.what good is it for joba to look great and mo to have 50 saves if they win 88 games?you have to be solid 1-3 and a decent 4th to win and the yankees are solid 1-2 and are not even close to being the best 1-2.if they had a true ace,wang number 2,pettitte number 3 they would be fine.how can you have a 209 million dollar payroll and be that bad?

]]> By: Chris http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331655 Chris Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:47:17 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331655 Let's see people continue to talk about "shortening the game," as Hughes can't get out of the 4th again. This is ridiculous. He needs to go back down and get this worked out. Let’s see people continue to talk about “shortening the game,” as Hughes can’t get out of the 4th again. This is ridiculous. He needs to go back down and get this worked out.

]]> By: matt k http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331134 matt k Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:23:35 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331134 For those of you who think that our bullpen has caused so many loses and starting pitching is so unimportant: Every single one of our loses this year (besides the two rain outs which kennedy didnt start and hughes came out after two innnings) have been a direct result of either bad starting pitching or lack of offense (other teams good starting pitching) 13 loses 2 were the rain games 8 The starting pitcher gave up more runs then our offense scored 3 The amount of runs givin up by starting pitching and runs scored by the offense were equal so the bullpen has blown 3 games. Vs Boston april 17 Alba gave up the 2 deciding runs Vs Chicago April 24 hawkins gave up 1 run Joba gave up the walk off hit Vs Cleveland April 26 Ohlendorf gave up the walk off run after 3 previous scoreless bullpen innings For those of you who think that our bullpen has caused so many loses and starting pitching is so unimportant:

Every single one of our loses this year (besides the two rain outs which kennedy didnt start and hughes came out after two innnings) have been a direct result of either bad starting pitching or lack of offense (other teams good starting pitching)

13 loses

2 were the rain games

8 The starting pitcher gave up more runs then our offense scored

3 The amount of runs givin up by starting pitching and runs scored by the offense were equal so the bullpen has blown 3 games.

Vs Boston april 17 Alba gave up the 2 deciding runs
Vs Chicago April 24 hawkins gave up 1 run Joba gave up the walk off hit
Vs Cleveland April 26 Ohlendorf gave up the walk off run after 3 previous scoreless bullpen innings

]]> By: Chris the Great http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331128 Chris the Great Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:15:33 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331128 I read these bullpen arguments and just shake my head in disbelief. I wonder what type of person is on the other end typing that nonsense. And Derek Jeter is just awful in the field. How anyone can argue this is amazing to me as well. I read these bullpen arguments and just shake my head in disbelief. I wonder what type of person is on the other end typing that nonsense. And Derek Jeter is just awful in the field. How anyone can argue this is amazing to me as well.

]]> By: McBain http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331004 McBain Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:49:44 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-331004 "IF" the Yankees have a lead in the 7th inning. Right now, the Yankees are a .500 team with a great late inning tandem. Why are they only .500? Because their starting pitching is not good. When Joba was out with his father, it turned out that his absence didnt hurt the Yankees too much because there wasn't much opportunity for him to help in a ballgame. That's five or six games where arguably the best pitcher on the team had no use. If he were a starter, he could have effected 10 - 16 innings of those games if he pitched twice. One scenario he has no use, another he's effecting two games for a long stretch. Which is more valuable? LathamJoe, regarding sabermetrics... Baseball is a game of probability. Batting average is simply a number that tells you the percentage chance of a batter getting a hit in each at bat. That is probability. Sabermetrics does the same exact thing. It's all about calculating probability and overall effectiveness, only instead of using something like batting average, it will also calculate walks and HBP, because those instances create useful baserunners as well. You don't have to like or even use sabermetrics. But all it is is an extension of the cruder statistics that have been in place for over a hundred years. If you're willing to think a player with a .315 BA is better than a player with a .250 BA, you're halfway there. “IF” the Yankees have a lead in the 7th inning. Right now, the Yankees are a .500 team with a great late inning tandem. Why are they only .500? Because their starting pitching is not good.

When Joba was out with his father, it turned out that his absence didnt hurt the Yankees too much because there wasn’t much opportunity for him to help in a ballgame. That’s five or six games where arguably the best pitcher on the team had no use.

If he were a starter, he could have effected 10 – 16 innings of those games if he pitched twice. One scenario he has no use, another he’s effecting two games for a long stretch. Which is more valuable?

LathamJoe, regarding sabermetrics…

Baseball is a game of probability. Batting average is simply a number that tells you the percentage chance of a batter getting a hit in each at bat. That is probability.

Sabermetrics does the same exact thing. It’s all about calculating probability and overall effectiveness, only instead of using something like batting average, it will also calculate walks and HBP, because those instances create useful baserunners as well.

You don’t have to like or even use sabermetrics. But all it is is an extension of the cruder statistics that have been in place for over a hundred years. If you’re willing to think a player with a .315 BA is better than a player with a .250 BA, you’re halfway there.

]]> By: McBain http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330982 McBain Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:38:14 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330982 LathamJoe, No one is minimizing the importance of the bullpen. But this is a real chicken before the egg argument. A strong reliever is only important when there is something to protect. In order for that reliever to have an opportunity, there must be a lead. I'll go back to my original point, which is the best use of Joba's talents over the course of his career. Relievers have much shorter careers than Rivera and Hoffman. One can't assume that Joba will be the exception and not the rule. The Yankees, along with every other major league team, have had a merry-go-round of relievers. Even in the case of Rivera, he's thrown over the course of his career (Starting in 1995) 964.0 innings. Andy Pettitte started in 1995 as well and since then has thrown 2558.1 innings. That's just under three times as many innings. If you have a pitcher of Joba's potential caliber who could be with your organization for 12 years, is your team better off having him throw 964 innings or 2558? LathamJoe,
No one is minimizing the importance of the bullpen. But this is a real chicken before the egg argument. A strong reliever is only important when there is something to protect. In order for that reliever to have an opportunity, there must be a lead.

I’ll go back to my original point, which is the best use of Joba’s talents over the course of his career. Relievers have much shorter careers than Rivera and Hoffman. One can’t assume that Joba will be the exception and not the rule. The Yankees, along with every other major league team, have had a merry-go-round of relievers.

Even in the case of Rivera, he’s thrown over the course of his career (Starting in 1995) 964.0 innings. Andy Pettitte started in 1995 as well and since then has thrown 2558.1 innings. That’s just under three times as many innings.

If you have a pitcher of Joba’s potential caliber who could be with your organization for 12 years, is your team better off having him throw 964 innings or 2558?

]]> By: NJBRIAN http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330977 NJBRIAN Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:36:39 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330977 So please tell me, who then would pitch the 8th inning? As of right now if the yanks have a lead after the seventh inning, you can put a check mark in the win column. They have to good a thing going to put Joba in the rotation right now, IMHO and barring any major injuries to any of our SP's, he should stay there for the rest of this season. Have a good evening. So please tell me, who then would pitch the 8th inning? As of right now if the yanks have a lead after the seventh inning, you can put a check mark in the win column. They have to good a thing going to put Joba in the rotation right now, IMHO and barring any major injuries to any of our SP’s, he should stay there for the rest of this season. Have a good evening.

]]> By: LathamJoe http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330951 LathamJoe Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:22:51 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/29/joba-has-looked-great-in-the-bullpen-now-get-him-out-of-there-and-into-the-rotation/#comment-330951 That's "if used judiciously". That’s “if used judiciously”.

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