Today in The Journal News
-
- April
- 30
The Yankees finally returned home but Phil Hughes was knocked around by the Tigers and A-Rod went on the disabled list. Brian Heyman has the story.
Jorge Posada is getting plenty of opinions on his injured shoulder. This notebook also has an update on Brian Bruney.
If you want to see the All-Star game in person it will cost you. Alex Myers has that story.
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on Wednesday, April 30th, 2008 at 2:55 am by Peter Abraham.
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I’d ordered my Yankee Stadium ‘The Official Retrospective’ and it just arrived today. I was skimming through some of the pages just after I got it and noticed a pretty big error on page 66. It had a picture of Jete rounding the bases, and the caption says ‘Derek Jeter rounds third base after hitting a game-winning grand slam on Opening Day 2006′. Only problem was it was a 3 run homer, not a grand slam.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20060411&content_id=1394730&vkey=wrapup2005&fext=.jsp&team=home&c_id=nyy
Jeter’s only had one grand slam, and that was in 2005.
http://yankees.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20050618&content_id=1094574&vkey=wrapup2004&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy
It really stood out to me because I’ve been ‘predicting’ his career 2nd grand slam every time this year he’s came up with the bases loaded, hoping he gets at least 2 in Yankee Stadium before it closes.
Odd they would let an error like that get printed without catching it. Maybe they had Pavano proof reading, lol.
Do you think Phil would consider changing his number back to 65. He had much more success last year with this number.
That guy with the pots and pans should be sent to Flushing — or just flushed!
Boston is not exactly lighting things up either. Let’s see how close we are to the division lead on June 1st. If we are within 5 games on that date, through all we have been dealing with and WILL deal with in the month to come, that will be a place we should all “take”.
To all the professional panickers: one game at a time, puh-lease.
Last year this team stunk until just before the All Star Break AND Boston was pulling away. This year, Toronto’s in the basement (note: they play in a dome - so, no weather excuses) and, IMO, there is just no way the Rays and Baltimore seriously contend all season, although they might win a bigger number of intradivision games this year than last.
With all the injuries and early season disappointments in the offense and the rookie pitchers, it seems like the Yankees can’t get out of their own way. But both the hitting and pitching will improve in time and the lack of offense is part of the burden for Phil and IPK.
Everybody needs to keep his or her eye on the ball. Until I see otherwise, it’s still a two team race. Which reminds me of the joke about the two hunters who are being chased by a bear. The first hunter says to the second, “We’ll never outrun this thing.” The second hunter replies, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.” In reality, the Yankees only need to be a little better than Boston.
They need to get some consistency going, get to .500 and start climbing. This homestand should help - although the weather report looks crappy for at least a week. But barring hail and tornadoes, I’m making my first trip to the Stadium on Sunday. (Isn’t that Hughes’ next start?)
Arriba Yankees!
I think the guy with the pots and pans is really Steve Swindal.
Murph,
The chicken littles will be out in full force today. They were last night.
Nobody learns from year to year. They are just in one mode….panic. Bandwagoners at their finest.
At this point, they need to send Hughes to AAA. For a variety of reasons.
They need a veteran who can navigate at least 5-6 innings a start. Rasner has been terrific in AAA and is be the time to give him a shot. That’s why you keep a veteran pitcher or two in AAA. For reasons like this.
With all the injuries, the offense is a shell of its former self. They need a guy who can keep them in games and Rasner can do that better than Hughes right now.
They have one spot open on the 40 man roster and he can be slotted in there immediately. I think that’s the way to go in the short term.
The main reason to send him down is to build up his confidence. The poor kid melted down last night and that’s tough to see.
Chicken littles aside, he is only 21 years old. This is the first time in his life he has failed playing the game. Its tough.
For all the talk of the Red Sox young pitchers, both Lester and Buchholz are older than Hughes and Kennedy. It does make a difference.
For those of you who think his age doesn’t matter, remember Melky’s early struggles? The same “experts” who declared Melky a bust then are now declaring Hughes a “bust”. So, pardon me if I think that opinion is worthless.
Its not Girardi, Eiland, the weather, the catchers, or the man in the moon. Simply put, he has mechanical issues and confidence issues that can’t be worked out taking his turn every 5 days in the Yankee rotation.
Leiter made a great point last night about using his secondary pitches. He’s correct. Here’s the problem.
When you can’t locate your fastball, no 21 year old kid has enough confidence to go through an entire start using his secondary pitches. For those of us who saw Leiter pitch at 21, he didn’t have the confidence to go with his secondary pitches at that time either.
That’s the kind of stuff you see from Pettitte and Mussina. Two veteran guys who have been there and done that.
You aren’t going to see that from a kid because, from a confidence standpoint, he doesn’t believe enough in his stuff to do it.
You gain that confidence pitching with “nothing to lose”. You do that at AAA and not the majors. Especially not with the Yankees. Right now, his mound presence looks like he believes the season is on the line with every start. Too much pressure to perform when you are like that.
He’s not a bust and his problems aren’t unsolvable.
However, to keep running him out there now isn’t going to help. You run the risk of ruining his confidence to the point where you have a major problem.
April struggles are not major problems. If you let them linger, then they become major problems.
Get him to AAA, let him work on his problems, and see how it goes.
At this point, his long term prospects are much more important than worrying about his next start.
Let’s get real. The true culprit with this team is lack of hitting. The pitching has kept the team in most games with no run support.
Very lackluster at bats by too many. Good teams find ways to squeeze runs across the plate. Waiting for the big inning never comes.
Hughes and Kennedy are having young pitcher issues but they too get no run cushion to work with resulting in their overtrying.
Given the loss of our two big RBI guys for a while, does anyone think they will call up Brett Gardner? It seems that manufacturing runs may be at a premium for the next couple of weeks.
I hope they call Rasner up and send Phil down. It was breaking my heart last night to see how upset he was. I thought Ohlendorf looked terrific and Edwar looked pretty good too. (Just trying to look at the bright side).
Rasner’s good in AAA. That’s a world away from the real game played. We’ve seen his stuff before and it’s nothing to write home about.
Regardless, I agree that Hughes needs to go to AAA for a while and get his confidence and mechanics back.
Motown:
Gardner has been struggling a little of late. Went under .300 last night and more importantly isn’t running much. 4 for 8 on steal attempts. Saw someone post he had an ankle problem, which might be slowing him down. Not much reason to believe he’d offer anything more than Damon and Cabrera have. In fact, he’d likely offer less.
Lack of hitting is one element. But, when you have 2 starters in your rotation who are winless with ERA’s approaching double digits, that can’t last much longer.
Another way to look at it. When you don’t hit, its even more important for your starters to give you length and quality.
In other words, sometimes, you have to win 1-0 games. Like Boston did last night for example.
No question, the offense has been disappointing. However, you can’t keep guys in the rotation getting their brains beat in every fifth day, while blowing out the bullpen in the process, and not think its going to catch up with you.
I’ll go one better. Not only would I send Hughes to AAA for Rasner, if Kennedy struggles in his next start, I’d also send him to AAA.
I would call up Dan McCutcheon to take his place. You can move Bruney to the 60 Day DL to place McCutcheon on the 40 man roster.
McCutcheon is 25. He’s older than Hughes and Kennedy. He’s also throwing the ball as well as anybody (along with Rasner) in the system right now.
The Red Sox gave Justin Masterson a start from AA last week and he was terrific. It may be time to see if McCutcheon can do the same.
They aren’t going to trade for all star pitchers. They aren’t available. They are going to have to fix what’s broken from within.
They have options. The question is, when do they go to them?
SJ:
Agree with your point on age of Hughes when comparing to Lester and Buchholtz. 2-3 years makes a difference. Argument does not work for Kennedy though. He was born in 1984, just like Buchholtz and Lester. He just not as good as those guys stuff-wise. Hughes is, he just needs to grow into the job and work things out.
Yankee Fans -
If you haven’t already, check out the prices to attend All Star events at the Stadium this year. They are completely out of control and out of line for the average family. What MLB is doing here is continuing to charge as much as they can - and more - effectively pricing out the real family fans, and bringing in the high end customers and corporations.
Baseball fans nowadays are better off going to see the minor league teams in their area.
Fredo,
Its not just chronological age. Experience also plays a big role. Experience allows you to trust your stuff and get through the rough spots.
Kennedy’s stuff is good enough to win at the ML level. We see guys with less stuff than Kennedy succeed in the majors all the time.
The problem is, he doesn’t believe it. He’s gone from A ball to the Yankees starting rotation in a little over a year.
That’s not a big jump. Its a huge jump.
Not everybody can be Joba. A kid who, from the first day he showed up in the Bronx, looked and pitched like he was in the majors for 10 years.
That’s why folks can’t go overboard and declare players “busts” this early in their careers.
If they aren’t quite ready yet, that’s ok. Make some changes.
I don’t want to see the Yankees become so stubborn and inflexible on this issue, they end up doing long term damage to both players. Its not the right way to develop players, IMO.
Sometimes, guys just aren’t ready for primetime when you think they are. It happens with every organization in the game. The good organizations make adjustments and go forward.
The first requisite for the pitchers to succeed is some consistent run support.
Hughes and Kennedy can be sent down to work on secondary pitches and location but the bats must start producing.
Girardi may need to tell certain players to take their work more seriously. Laughing and cutting up are fine with winning but not at this time.
“Derek Jeter was held out six games with his quad strain and appears OK. But Jorge Posada came back too soon, as did A-Rod. They both aggravated their injuries and ended up on the disabled list. That falls on Cashman and Joe Girardi, who have the final say.”- peter abraham
well, they got lucky with joba who tweaked his hammy and jeter with his quad. both could have been rested longer too.
50/50 on their judgement. actually it should be cashman’s judgement because he has to overrule girardi on injuries and decide when someone will play.
50/50- isn’t that kind of like flipping a coin?
I wish everyone would stop making excuses for these young pitchers. They have been terrible. Hughes has been so bad he was booed last night and rightly so from people who pay the prices for tickets the Yankees get. Hughes shouldn’t be in the major leagues and Kennedy is not that far behind him taking the bus to Scranton.
This is the Yankees we are talking about and not the Tampa Bay Rays or Baltimore Orioles. If this continues this team will not be a .500 team this year. They have one pitcher Wang and 3/4 of another Pettitte. Mussina can explode at any moment.
Cashman built this team with the hope of having Hughes and Kennedy compete this year. That hasn’t happened yet maybe it will maybe it won’t. If Hughes goes down to Scranton who is to say he gets back this year if he flops there?
Stop making excuses for the Yankees. This is a team that is slipping big time. They have holes all over the place. They have no first baseman. Most of their outfield is going the other way. The front end of their bullpen is questionable. And there are no Joba Chamberlain’s in the minors so get real. I am a yankee fan but I am also a realist about this team.
yankees have to be carefull because buchholz is finding his rythm for the red sox and lester pitched great last night but hughes is 2 and 3 yrs younger than both.they should give hughes and kennedy 1 more start each and send them both down,they are hurting the club.bring up rasner for a little while but not igawa.release giambi,play betemit at first base for the rest of the year,gonzalez as backup infielder,dh matsui,bring up gardner as 4th outfielder.girardi doesn’t change the lineup much,he should of put posada on the dl sooner and arod also,he kept playing them and now he lost both.make some changes now.the yankees have to get rid of all the dead weight next year,giambi,mussina,igawa,abraeu,pettitte,pavano,hawkins.go with bruney,alabadejo,farnsworth,mo and joba in the bullpen and go get 2 great pitchers.with a 209 million dollar payroll they should be running away with everything,this is a very poorly built team.the diamonbacks are 10 times better with 1/3 of the payroll and got this bullpen kid from the minors that is like joba,lights out and solved their only weakness wich was the bullpen.the yankees would of been fine if they were solid 1-3 with pitchers,a decent 4th starter and let one kid at a time learn on the job with little pressure but with all the pressure on these kids now especially with mussina struggling it is to much.they should of traded kennedy with others in the minors but not hughes,melky or joba.they need solid pitchers 1-3.wang,pettitte,mussina give up way to many hits per innings pitched.becket,dice-k and even buchholz give up less hits per innings pitched.the thing that confuses me is that last year they almost had the best record in baseball and have the exact same starting pitchers in the majors and minors but a much better bullpen and bench????pitching,pitching,pitching,all they need is an ace and their problems go away.imagine just as an example,becket,wang,pettitte,mussina,hughes with a lot less pressure and either trade kennedy or bring him along slowly or spot start him.the first three give you a chance to win every night.their problem is not the kids it is both of them at the same time,a lot of pressure on them and no true ace.wang is however evolving into a much better pitcher but his era on the road in 2007 is not ace material.wang and pettitte isn’t gonna cut it.
What if the players aren’t honest with you? What do you do then?
If you ask the player how he is feeling and he says, “ok, ready to go”, and he gets hurt, what do you do?
I know Arod hates not playing. I know most players not named Carl Pavano, when seeing their team is struggling, are going to want to be in the lineup.
Cashman is not in the locker room. All he can do is go by is what the trainer, medical staff and player say when it comes to being hurt.
We can’t have it both ways. We can’t rip guys like Pavano for not trying to play through pain, then second guess those that do.
Its a tough break but it happened. To me, playing the blame game is a waste of time because it eventually falls on the player. He’s the person that knows his body better than anybody else.
Just means other guys have to step up and contribute. Every team has injuries. You just have to deal with it and move on.
OK, these 3 pitchers need a new home, whether it is in the Minors or with a new uniform :
Hawkins ERA 7.98
IPK ERA 8.53
Hughes ERA 9.00
Now I know that Hawkins is supposed to be an innings eater in relief, but in his last 5 games, he has pitched 5 2/3, given up 6 runs and walked 4 batters and only recorded one Strike Out. If you want to keep IPK and Hughes, fine, but they are really doing poorly up here in the show and need to be sent down to get things “right”….It is almost a guaranteed loss each time one of them toes the rubber and with all the offensive injuries we are up against for at least the month of May, if the Yankees are going to stay close enough to make a move, giving up 5-6 runs and only lasting a max of 5 innings is just not what we need.
“Cashman built this team with the hope of having Hughes and Kennedy compete this year.”
This is probably true. Cashman’s in the less than enviable position of trying to rebuild while trying to win at the same time. Given that he has a lot of youth in the pitching staff and a lot of 30 somethings in the field everyday (Cano and Cabrera aside) the results have been somewhat predictable. Some pitchers have taken a routine beating and there have been injuries abound.
That said, they’re still less than 20% into the season. The weather will warm, the injured will return, and the pitchers will grow up. Cashman is thinking “big picture” as he should, and the Yanks may still end up ok this year. Let’s see where it goes.
Fredo - thanks for the Gardner update. I had heard he sprained his ankle, but wasn’t aware his BA and SBs had dropped.
Lets look at that Hughes/Kennedy and whoever trade for the best lefty in baseball now. So now fans and the yankee brass can say how wonderful they are with all those loser cliches like “we are giving our youth a chance” “we have homegrown talent” The yankees have done great by adding solid PROVEN free agents and making trades for proven players, all of a sudden they want to do this? Out of all the so called PHENOM pitchers for both the yankees and the mets 80% of them never pan out. They blew it.
Please, not the “I have a right to boo” argument.
Yes, you have the right to boo. Doesn’t make it right or smart. But, you do have the right to do it.
After that, then what? What do you do other than complain? How do you fix the problems?
That’s what we are talking about today. Not whether fans have the right to boo players. I wouldn’t boo my own players because I don’t think it accomplishes anythying. But, that’s just me. I could be wrong.
Every team has to reload and there are struggles when you do so.
The Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs two years ago, didn’t trade their young players in panic deals, and look at them now.
Nobody is making excuses. We are talking about why things may be happening to Hughes, Kennedy, etc.
Its not your God given right to have a team win the World Series just because they have a high payroll. If you think it is, you haven’t been paying too much attention to the last 7 years of Yankee Baseball.
When you reload and try to win at the same time, you will have some growing pains along the way.
sj-
spring 2007
MAY
9
Jason Giambi has a bone spur on the bottom of his left foot. X-rays taken before the game showed it. He said he could play on it but appreciated Joe Torre taking him out after three plate appearances.
MAY
31
Jason Giambi was seen by foot and ankle specialist Dr. William Hamilton today and found to have a tear of the plantar fascia in his left foot. That is the tissue that connects the heel to the base of the toes.
same old,same old. giambi last year couldn’t have been more botched. it was an easy injury to get right in the first place.
the yankees are just not good in this area. it’s as simple as that.
The Yankees have done great by adding solid proven free agents?
I guess the “homegrown talent” such as Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada didn’t work out. That only was the cornerstone of a dynasty.
They spent over a billion dollars in salary, which includes free agents and trades, since 2001.
Adding Jason Giambi, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, etc. Just a few of the non-homegrown players added to the roster. How did that work out?
If you don’t think the Yankees built their teams with a foundation of homegrown talent, you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
Hughes fastball at times last night was 86 according to the Yes Network Gun. Last Year he was at 91-95. Is this alarming?
The right to boo is part of baseball and it will remain part of it. Fans have the right to complain or to tell the team that they stink which is part of the booing process. No you are wrong, it is when fans throw things and get violent that is not a right. Letting out a boo is just part of the game. Boring people sit there with their hands folded and never make a noise.
Booing is fine, but what does it accomplish?
So, you think booing makes you less boring? How about supporting your own players? Every think of that?
It just adds more pressure in a pressure cooker. More weight on the shoulders. These guys want to succeed. If they are not working hard, thats a different issue. I see zero point in booing.
In essence, Hawkins replaced Vizcaino. How’s Vizcaino doing? He went on the DL with an ERA of 27 after two appearances and 5 innings pitched. Maybe we can pay Shelley D to forearm bash Hawkins hard enough in his right shoulder to do irreparable damage…
Hughes definitely needs to go down to AAA. No doubt. Case closed.
As poor a start as Hughes and Kennedy have gotten off to, a few well-placed hits by the offense could have afforded a couple of wins for each of them. The offense shares the blame for this. I know I expected them to have a rough road of it; I expected them to be making mistakes, having to make adjustments — learning on the job. BUT I expected the offense to cover for them by scoring enough runs to allow them the luxury of working through the hard times. That hasn’t happened, and I seriously don’t blame Cashman for that. It was a calculated risk, and with a team that scored over 950 runs last season, one I would take every time. Now, Hughes has been a far cry from what was expected, but his first start of the season was very good and he would have won with even a little run support. Kennedy should also have at least one win. And frankly, I’ve seen more signs of Kennedy improving - he gets more confident as he gets into a game.
I think Hughes has never experienced this level of frustration. He has never had to deal with hitters of this caliber and sending him to AAA won’t solve that part of it. He’ll get through it, but booing him is not going to help. We should be partners in his development.
SJ44 and/or CB –
If you’re reading this morning, I have a question for you. Until the last 2 days I hadn’t heard anything about Phil Hughes’ mechanics being changed. Was it? And when was it, if it was? Thanks.
SJ44, great post - I completely agree. I’m glad I didn’t see Phil having the meltdown because that would have been tough for me to take. He’s never been through anything like this before - he’s always dominated. Phil must be sent down so that his confidence isn’t crushed; if it is, he may never get it back.
Problem with the mechanical issues is that the Yankees don’t think he has any. They changed his natural deliver to this over-the-top one he’s using now (not that I know anything about mechanics) and it’s not working; Phil has diminished velocity and great diminished command. They had no business changing his natural delivery when it worked so well for him and I admit this - I have absolutely no faith that Nardi and co. are going to admit a mistake and let Phil go back to his old mechanics. All I know is they took a potential ace and completely messed with him - these are the people we are entrusting our future with?
If we are trying to win this year, Hughes needs to go down. If we are going to rebuild this year then keep him in the rotation.
Doreen, I completely agree with you. I did not expect a sub-3.00 era for either Hughes or Kennedy this year. I didn’t even expect quality starts each time out. I would have been happy if one of the posted 4.00 and one of them posted 5.00 and they each tended to get through the sixth inning each time out. I also expected this to take some time.
But what I did expect, as you said, was that the offense would be able to give Phil and Ian a cushion to work with. This offense is anemic right now. I know they’ll get healthy, get warmer and generally snap out of it, but it’s frustrating to see the offense leave the young pitchers hanging like that, and it’s frustrating to see the young pitchers pitching like they’re scared to make mistakes because they have no run support.
But hey, that’s baseball. I still think they’ll get it done in the end. Just another slow April for the Yankees. What else is new, really?
finishing april at .500 was an acceptable goal given the schedule, however the assumption was arod and posada being part of the lineup and hughes and kennedy getting their seas legs.
it’s good to be calm in a crisis, but i don’t think cashman has any illusions that his head is the one on the chopping block. he bet his yankee job on not making the santana trade and keeping the kids.
hank pretty much said that cashman better be right. besides bad decisions about arod and posada ,when an o-april by hughes and kennedy is added to the equation, i think cashman knows that hughes going to the minors is the least of his worries.
what’s left of the team had better start winning.
SJ44 -
I didn’t read the prior posts before adding my prior comment regarding Hughes/Kennedy.
I am surprised you’ve changed your mind about sending Hughes to AAA. Last week, in the rain-shortened game, Hughes was showing good form and good location. Last night was very different, I’ll agree, and he was obviously disappointed and slightly bewildered during his post-game interview last night. I guess there is a fine line - when does it become detrimental to allow him to work it out “where it counts” rather than where the game results are somewhat secondary. I still maintain that he’s not going to be pitching under the same strenuous conditions and I’m not sure how that helps him deal with major league hitters.
rb15 -
Maybe next year I’ll start watching on May 1st!
If you keep spotting the other team 6 runs within the first three innings every time the momentum is tough to get back. In essence your asking our offense to put up 10 in the first three. Momentum changes quickly but when your in a hole that deep its tough to try to fight out.
Well it is obvious Phil and Ian haven’t been great. To me the even more glaring problem is our lack of hitting. We had many chances to win that game last night even with Phil’s poor start and couldn’t get it done. We are now have to huge holes in our lineup and others need to pick up the slack, Jeter, Bobby, Damon et al.
Hopefully Ian got himself right (got himself into and out of major trouble his last start).
Doreen,
His mound demeanor last night made me change my mind. Its also probably why the Yankees are mulling over whether or not to send him down.
He melted down last night. That’s tough to see.
Plus, it wasn’t Stewart’s problem with all the confusion last night. Hughes was having problems seeing in the lights. He has above average vision.
That tells me its not his eyesight. Its his nerves.
It happens. You evaluate guys from start to start and look for improvement. Last night, I saw a 21 year old, feeling all the pressure in the world, meltdown. That isn’t going to help his development.
If you tivo’ed the game or watch the replay, look at his expression after he walked Granderson to start the game.
He looked like he shot his dog. That was the first hitter of the game! His jaw was clenched so tight last night, I thought he was going to bite his tongue. That’s not good.
It tells me he is really feeling the pressure. The Yankees have to take the pressure off him or he won’t develop properly.
I don’t see how giving him another shot in the rotation is going to take the pressure off him.
He needs to work on his secondary pitches and fastball location. You can’t do that in the majors. You can do that in AAA.
At this point, with the offense injured and dormant, they are going to need more innings and more quality from their rotation because the runs are not going to be there. Unfortunately, at least right now, Hughes cannot provide that.
Its why, IMO, he needs to go to AAA and refine his stuff.
Its best for all concerned.
Pap, six runs is a big hole. But this team scored an average of six runs a game last year. It’s not unconscious to ask them to do the same thing. Hughes and Kennedy have been disappointing, definitely. I’m not going to pretend like I know how to fix either of them. But I think it’s at least as disappointing that the lineup isn’t hitting. And it’s mental stuff, too, that’s keeping the bats down. How many times have hitters gone deep into counts? How many times have they sacrificed instead of swinging for the Bronx County Courthouse? The offense needs to button that stuff up, and start just being its own average again.
The players are paid to do a service and that is ultimately to win games. They are professional athletes and the New York Yankees. They are are not little leaguers and don’t deserve to be patted on the back for lousy performances. These players are paid big bucks to win games when they don’t the fans who are paying their salaries have every right to tell them they are not happy with their performance by booing.
SJ,
Maybe you remember the year or how long he was in the majors, but if I remember a few years ago Roy “Doc” Halladay was sent all the way back to single A after being in the majors, then returning and staying for good.
IMO something is really wrong with Phil, he does not seem to have the FB that was talked about in the minors and why does he not have a third pitch. It looks like every game is the same as his first game last year against Toronto. At the end of last year and in the playoffs he was spot on, that is why IMO something is wrong and it is not age.
Pinstripesplus has a great interview up with George Kontos - a AA starter who is beginning to put things together. He had a few aweful starts at his new higher level and has now had three very good starts.
Reason why this is important is what he said. In his first three games he had no confidence, gave the hitters at a higher level too much credit, a didn’t trust his secondary stuff. THIS SOUNDS FAMILIAR.
Kontos has been improving every time out and had a mini-breakthrough when his confidence returned.
Ian and Phil seem to be going through the exact same thing. They are at a higher level (although they each pitched some last year), clearly don’t trust their stuff, and are afraid of hitters - they lack confidence right now.
I am no psychologist, nor baseball expert, but I would imaging the powers that be are looking into where best for these two players to find their confidence, or as Adam Sandler found his Happy Place. Both were too good and too dominant in the minors to go 0 for the season.
I think some of Phil’s problem is the lack of a conistant catcher. Last night he was an absolute mess with Chris. It is a little unfair to ask anyone to have 4 different people catch you let alone a rookie.
BTW Kontos is someone to watch.
If he truly develops his secondary stuff (which has been his achilles heal in the past) he is a potential starter for the big club down the road. If he doesn’t than he is definately a bullpen guy that can help.
There needs to be some sort of common ground. Both the offense and our pitching needs to pick up the slack a little.
I agree the offense is dismal thus far. They are leaving so many runners on base its disappointing. Guys aren’t even getting productive outs, they are just getting out.
The hitters are not putting themselves in good hitters counts. Every time i look up Arod is in the hole 0-2. Hitting with 2 strikes is tough.
Cano and Giambi need to find a way. I think cano will snap out. Giambi i have no idea.
Who knows how it will work out in the end.
randy - Those two injuries with Giambi from last year were completely different injuries. Remember, he tore the plantar fascia when he was rounding third base and his foot slipped off the bag.
SJ - You make a lot of good points, I agree with you but I’d give Hughes one more start before sending him down to AAA. Last week he started that rain shortened game in very good fashion but obviously didn’t get to throw more than 2 innings. I’d give him one more chance to capture that in a full start.
“Hughes fastball at times last night was 86 according to the Yes Network Gun. Last Year he was at 91-95. Is this alarming?”
The YES gun is terrible, look at the gameday velocities. Last night he was anywhere from 90-94. Last week he was throwing consistently 94. I think a lot of it has to do with the weather, last night it was cold.
Rick,
Seriously, how old are you, 12?
The players are paid to win games? They are paid to play professional baseball. Sometimes, that means you don’t play well and you don’t win the game.
Do you think they are paid to go 162-0?
I’ve got news for you, the fans don’t pay the players salaries. The team plays them.
Take out all the ticket revenue from the Yankees and they still have enough money to pay the players.
I could give you a lesson on baseball economics but its clear it would go over your head.
You want to boo your own players, fine by me.
Just don’t tell me its your “right” to do so. You have an option as to what to do and you chose the easiest avenue to express your frustration.
Phil has never had to deal with this kind of thing.
In highschool and the minors, he was great. He almost never had to battle or deal with this kind of pressure.
He needs to learn how to focus. You can see it on his face after a couple batters. The mental side of the game isn’t there yet for him.
Everyone is reading the YES gun including Kay and Leiter as if it’s accurate. They had Hughes throwing 88 mph fastballs. And Leiter saying his fastball is 88-91. Kind of annoying.
SJ - Since you are on the board this morning, I don’t know if you subscribe to pinstripesplus but it is a great site. Lots of interviews with players and staff (Nardi, Rowson etc). That Kontos article I mentioned a couple of posts above will explain better in one paragraph what 5000 posts the last couple of days here are trying to do.
Catchers, weather, offense, eyesite are all factors, but CONFIDENCE is everything. If you are shaky to begin with then these things will crush you.
Hughes and Kennedy might need some refinement with mechanics and pitching at the moment but mostly they need some confidence to trust in themselves and their pitches, then command and wins will come.
“I would call up Dan McCutcheon to take his place. You can move Bruney to the 60 Day DL to place McCutcheon on the 40 man roster.
McCutcheon is 25. He’s older than Hughes and Kennedy. He’s also throwing the ball as well as anybody (along with Rasner) in the system right now.”
That is really smart, outside the box thinking. At over 7 era, changes have to be made. IPK and Hughes are harming the team and their growth.
A demotion at this point isnt always a bad thing. Gives others a reward for performance and lights a fire under the young guys.
I think NYY will be fine over the course of 162. My only problem right now remains the lineup changes. Stick with damon cab and abreau in of. Arod (or Ensberg) jete, robbie, and molina, platoon only big g and mr quad a. Too much uncertainty there so far. Last night there was no way molina shouldnt have caught given Hughes on mound and his # of rogers. And melk is one of our only rt bat left. Why was he on the bench?
Vader,
I believe it was ‘03 or ‘04 Halliday went down to A ball to get straightened out.
Hughes and Kennedy aren’t the only young pitchers struggling.
Andrew Miller is struggling big time in Florida. Johnny Cueto is struggling in Cincinnati.
The difference is, Florida and Cincinnati aren’t NY. Those kids aren’t being told their busts by their fan base, and some members of the media, and they aren’t getting booed off the mound.
Its tough enough to pitch well in the majors. Its even tougher when you are struggling and you are starting to feel the pressure.
The key is to find a way to take the pressure of Hughes so his natural talents can take over.
BTW, ignore the YES gun. Its never right. That kid was throwing 90-93 for most of the night. He just couldn’t locate.
There is nothing wrong with his velocity. His issues are threefold:
1. Location.
2. Lack of confidence in his secondary pitches.
3. Nerves.
All fixable and all the usual things young pitchers deal with as they try to make it in the majors.
Pitching aside, why not have Alberto Gonzalez come replace the window shopper Morgan Ensberg at third base. Gonzalez couldn’t do much worse than Ensberg’s doing right now, plus this is a great opporunity for him to get some major league a bats while playing everyday.
Maybe he can even be showcased for a future trade. What really is his future with the club anyway, considering that A-Rod or Jeter ain’t changing positions any time soon.
I don’t know if any of you had a chance to listen to Moose on the FAN the other day but I thought that his comments were pretty interesting.
He went through his own performance (the Manny debacle), his reaction to Hank’s salvo and his recent success but he also talked through the struggles of IPK and Phil.
I was surprised that he seemed to think that IPK was closer than Phil to figuring things out. He outlined a specific plan for IPK whereas with respect to Phil he essentially said that Phil had to pull his entire game together - which sounded as much mental/emotional as it did mechanical.
As an aside - IMO, players own their own performance, but I would have hoped that Dave Eiland - who was brought up to the big club because of his great success developing 3 budding pros - could nurse the youngsters to better starts than this.
One of the starters struggling is something we can work around and survive (see Jeff Weaver’s maddening stint) but 2 at the same time is a HUGE problem. We need one of these guys to pull it together and then let Rasner spell the other until his head clears.
I think a lot of us realize that, although Hughes’ mechanics might need some work, it’s the mental side of the game he needs to master…
He’s just not there yet with his confidence and mentality, and I’m not convinced sending him to AAA will do it.
I am going to put very little blame on our offense. The Yankees’ inability to hit with men on base is FAR less a problem then 2/5 of our starting rotation royally ruining each game. You have to send those two down, even if you have to bring up someone who is “projected” to be less of a starting pitcher. We need innings. Try Ohlendorf, try Rasner. Hell, even try Igawa. The kids aren’t getting it done.
Quite frankly, I don’t care about “what’s best for Hughes.” This kid is not 12 and he is supposed to have a good makeup. He was going to cry when they interviewed him in the locker room yesterday. Completely lost.
I’m not saying Ohlendorf, Rasner, and Igawa are permanent solutions but we need to plug the gap before Joba gets to the rotation. Because now, it’s just a matter of time before the JOBA JOBA JOBA chants come once every 5 games.
If you send him to AAA does it make him realize he can actually get big league hitters out? I don’t think so. I think the only way he will do that is to string together a couple good starts. If it is mechanical and he needs to work on pitchers then send him down. Otherwise how does it help?
“Pitching aside, why not have Alberto Gonzalez come replace the window shopper Morgan Ensberg at third base.”
I’ll agree with you there, Adam. And I do like Morgan Ensberg a lot. Alberto Gonzalez has really impressed me in the time he has been with the club. He’s got speed, is great defensively, hasn’t shown a lot of power early on but WE NEED SPEED. Reminds me a little bit of Melky. I like Alberto a lot.
Thanks SJ,
I would think being sent down to get himself straightened out would not be a bad thing at all. Hope it happens soon because every time out he seems to be losing more confidence.
I am not making excuses, but last week in Chicago it seemed to me he was ready to put in a great performance and then the rain came. It always seems that he is pitching in crappy weather, the kid can’t catch a break.
He could have unraveled any inning. I can’t base anything on two innings of work. He has shown consistently that he cannot get it done right now.
I have no concerns about the Yankees. They will be just fine. By the middle of May I expect Cashman and Co. will have begun to trim the fat off this team. It takes time and patience to see what you have and Girardi has done a good job of giving everyone playing time irrespective of their impact on the game. Once all of the data is in, then Cashman can make changes for the better.
Jason,
I don’t subscribe to Pinstripes Plus. I agree wholeheartedly with the premise in the Kontos story.
Pitching is a lot about confidence. I’ll give you two examples. Joba Chamberlain and Greg Maddox.
From the first day Joba showed up, he acted like he belonged. Not only in the clubhouse, but on the mound.
He didn’t give into hitters. Didn’t show too much respect. He just did his thing.
Now, for the uninitiated or the spoiled among the fan base, they may think that’s common. That’s FAR from common. Its about as rare as it comes in the game.
The other end of the spectrum is Maddox. For the radar gun crowd, he’s throwing 82 MPH, pitching inside, and is breaking bats. He’s got 349 wins, is barely 5-10, and pitches with no fear. He’s been that way for years.
Its a mindset and a belief system that get instilled in great pitchers over time.
Very, very few have it at 21.
Its why its too early to give up on Hughes. Its also why the Yankees have to be smart about this. Can’t just throw him into the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim.
Sometimes, when you do that, all that happens is the student drowns.
“Quite frankly, I don’t care about “what’s best for Hughes.” This kid is not 12 and he is supposed to have a good makeup. He was going to cry when they interviewed him in the locker room yesterday. Completely lost.”
Well that is an incredibly short-sighted position - You have the #1 prospect in baseball locked up contractually for years and a bad month is enough for you to pull the switch? Baseball isn’t day-trading. You have to have some patience if you are going to be successful.
These days when Gil Meche and Ted Lilly are making 30 times what Phil is making you have to try to be rational.
“If you send him to AAA does it make him realize he can actually get big league hitters out?”
We want a pitcher (young or old) with brass balls. If he doesn’t realize then he can get big league hitters out then you certainly don’t leave him in the big leagues and force him to realize it. That’s like sticking a claustrophobic person in a closet and telling them to figure it out.
Start him off in a dim lighting then work him into the closet.
“These days when Gil Meche and Ted Lilly are making 30 times what Phil is making you have to try to be rational.”
Lets be realistic here - the Yankees want to win. You can up a pitcher when he is ready and can contribute. This is not spring training. When has money been an issue? Since when does a player making 1/30 of someone else’s paycheck justify leaving him in when he just cant get it done?
As noMaas said: “Both of these pitchers are ridiculously lost right now. Hughes now has an ERA of 9.00. In four out of his six starts, he hasn’t made it past the 4th inning. His acclaimed control is nowhere to be found. His K:BB is 1. That’s right, he’s walked 13 batters while striking out 13. He’s letting up lots of line drives. There is something clearly wrong here. Send him back to the minors and let him sort this out. He’s an extremely talented pitcher, but this isn’t getting fixed in the Bronx.”
I think the main thing on Hughes and Kennedy going down to AAA for a short time is to restore their confidence! They both lack confidence right now, and (I’m afraid) if we continue to run them out there, they will get worse. Nothing wrong with going down there to “find yourself”, it won’t be permanent (or for long) so, come on and do it so we can have young, confident, pitchers for the team.
Phil Franchise? More like french fries and a coke.
But seriously, folks. It’s April 30th, we’re two games out of first. Last year at this time we were 6 1/2 games out. And the year before, we were just three games over .500.
Phil will right himself. Kennedy will continue to improve. If they don’t, there are other options. We need Andy tonight to play the role of the stopper once again. I wonder how many times we’re going to hear the stat about what Andy’s record is after a Yankee loss.
To have the phrases “let’s be realistic here” and “since when has money mattered” in the same paragraph is pretty good stuff.
Look - I don’t think they are going to let the 2 young guns ruin the season if they can’t shoot straight. If you IPK and Phil keep stinking they are going to get sent down. But they are going to need to be developed before the year is out if we are going to have a prayer of making the playoffs.
The crop of pitchers available for trade sucks. That is the reality.
A funny comment about young pitchers and “confidence.” Back in Dwight Gooden’s rookie season, a journeyman veteran pitcher was asked about young Gooden’s mound demeanor and confidence. His response (and I paraphrase), “If I had that kid’s fast ball and curve ball, I’d be plenty confident too.”
You can stick a fork in Hughes. He will go down as another “good player that just couldn’t play in New York”. Here’s a big F you to all the so called fans at the stadium that booed him off the field. Did that make you feel cool. I’m so sick of the we are the Yankees, put a team out there that wins now, I pay good money. Are you guys gonna catch a little league game this weekend and boo the losing pitcher off the mound cause you payed good money for your damn hotdog. He’s a freakin’ kid he’s not Randy Johnson. You don’t boo a kid when he’s down like that. I bet he cried himself to sleep last night wishing he pitched for Min. I was freakin’ choked up watching him walk off the mound. Shame on you people.
Cashman said last night they will probably bring up a pitcher to take A-Rod’s spot on the roster.
Who will it be?
“Are you guys gonna catch a little league game this weekend and boo the losing pitcher off the mound cause you payed good money for your damn hotdog.”
He is not a kid. He is younger than the people around him but there are tons of pitchers in the majors who are only 1-3 years older than him. Maybe you were over-exaggerating but lets not compare a major league pitcher to a little league kid who is playing for fun.
Do you really think Yankee fans are booing Hughes because they paid good money for their hot dogs? They are booing him to get someones attention on the Yankees and tell them that this kid just isn’t fixing his problems in the majors. Send him down.
I think the Yankees can handle moves. I don’t think the fans booing their favorite team make the Yankees say “ohh they are booing we need to send him down.”
Jim - I didn’t say the Yankees needed help making decisions. I was suggesting that the fans were booing Hughes to let the team know how they felt. There is nothing wrong with expressing displeasure toward what we are seeing in Hughes.
Knick fans expressed displeasure toward Isiah and, I believe, even had a petition to get him out of town. My point: fans aren’t going to sit in silence or cheer when they see something that needs to be fixed not being fixed.
Whether or not they grab the Yankees’ attention, at least they know how we feel. As an organization, when your team is playing well you make more money. When your fans are booing and attendance starts to drop because they don’t want to watch Hughes get bombed again then they will notice.
After all we’ve been through…standing at 15-14 entering play on May 1st is not that bad. We do need to have IPK and Phil on a short leash though….
Don - it is a miracle we have that standing with all our injuries and poor starting performances. A lot of credit goes to Wang for keeping this team afloat and to the bullpen for being (relatively) lights out.
I think that right now Hughes and Keneedy need to go back to AAA for a bit and get their confidence back and work on commanding their pitches.
I think back to when Melky made his debut in Boston and probably played the worst CF seen in a long time. He was sent back down to continue working and developing. He wasn’t ready for the major leagues at that time. Now Melky has developed into a good CF.
I know that it’s a different position, but maybe the same circumstances - Kennedy and Hughes were rushed in too fast and the expectations placed on them too much.
I do think that both will be good major league pitchers, but I think they need to go down to AAA before they are “totally destroyed”.
I still love the concept of a youth movement, but to think that any unproven talent was not worth giving up for Santana was a real blunder.
I wanted Hughes to succeed just as much as anyone (and believe he still may), but to think we coveted him or any other prospect over a pitcher at the calibur of Johan Santana was a mistake.
I know hindsight is always 20/20, but that still doesn’t mean that passing on Santana was the correct move at the time. We all love the concept of building talent, but you can’t force it.
Sanatana made sense for this club (this is the Yankees after all, not the Marlins), and you all know it.
“Do you really think Yankee fans are booing Hughes because they paid good money for their hot dogs? They are booing him to get someones attention on the Yankees and tell them that this kid just isn’t fixing his problems in the majors. Send him down.”
They were booing him because they were frustrated and angry, not becuase they were trying to send a message. Fans are emotional, it’s not like they all had this calculated thought “oh if we boo him right now Cashman will get the message and send him down”.
As my friend said after I asked him if he went to the game yesterday:
“YEAH,
Left early, it was cold and Hughes stunk up the joint.”
Hughes and Kennedy may be stinking but I still don’t think they should have gone for Santana. Everyone please remember how much Santana would have cost after luxury tax. And then think about next year:
Over 40 million dollars off the books at the end of this season, the Twins also wanted Melky who we LOVE right now, CC Sabathia is available and will cost ZERO players. We will get Sabathia at less the cost than Santana and will have money for Teixiera. Hughes and Kennedy will develop and will be fine.
But having them in the majors right now is NOT working.
Patrick - whether fans intend to or not, they rarely just scream because they are angry. They want their team to win, they feel involved, and they feel that the louder they get the more attention they get.
Stick a single booing fan in an empty ballpark with Hughes sucking it up and he won’t be screaming like a madman.
I can understand booing a Randy Johnson, someone that is proven but you just don’t boo a young prospect who is struggling. You can’t do that. The kid may never recover. By the way, what were the fans message in the summer of 06′ when they spent the entire summer booing Arod? Did they want something fixed? Imagine this team last year without him.
Let’s be honest with ourselves as Yankees fans Russell - MONEY IS NOT AN ISSUE.
I truly don’t understand why some people really think this is all we’re going to see from Hughes for the rest of his career. I even see some people calling his career over. Talk about panic…
Hes a 21 year old kid… He’s going to continue to develop and he’s going to be a stud pitcher. People need to let him come into his own as a major league pitcher and as an adult.
He’s awfull right now, but that won’t last. He’s to talented. He’ll learn.
being that Phil is so young, do you think the yankees should go roy halladay on him and send him to A ball and let him work his way back instead of sendng him to AAA?
Both Hughes and Kennedy had some success last year in a very tight pennant race. I agree with Al Leiter, though, that the circumstances under which they pitched last year were not the same - this year they are actually depended upon to do a good job; last year it was a pleasant surprise (even Hughes, because he was brought up a full year before they wanted to originally).
However, Singleton and Lorenz were talking post-game about perhaps exposing specifically Phil Hughes to some game tapes where he pitched well - his last three starts last season, the almost no-hitter, and the post-season game, to see what he was doing that was correct. I think it would be a better approach, right now, than watching tapes of what he’s done wrong. There needs to be a reminder, a “click” for him, that he was able to do this - that he IS able to do this and has done it, and it was not a fluke. Yes, he also has to correct what’s going wrong, but sometimes if you approach something from a positive rather than a negative, the result could be better.
Melky had never played in the majors at all before his initial call-up and was clearly out of his element. IPK and Hughes are not completely out of their element, but they are a bit gun-shy. If I recall correctly, each of them had to make adjustments at each level of the minor leagues - starting out slow, but then picking it up. They have done this before, they can do it again. Certainly Kennedy, though he starts his games slowly, the last couple of times seems to have realized he can do this.
If after discussion, the Yankees decide they are all better served by putting either or both of these guys in AAA to work things out, then so be it. However, I would caution everyone not to automatically think that Rasner and/or Igawa are going to do a whole lot better. And Singleton warned last night about yo-yo-ing these guys up and down should Rasner and Igawa fail terribly - that would do more harm than good.
“Patrick - whether fans intend to or not, they rarely just scream because they are angry. They want their team to win, they feel involved, and they feel that the louder they get the more attention they get.”
Yeah so the Mets fans were booing Santana this season because they wanted Mets management to get rid of him?
It’s just frustration because the team is losing and whoever is getting booed is the target of that frustration.
“I can understand booing a Randy Johnson, someone that is proven but you just don’t boo a young prospect who is struggling. You can’t do that. The kid may never recover.”
People react differently to booing. A-Rod got booed then came out and dominated. If you are going to “never recover” after getting booed at a baseball game then you don’t belong in the majors. It happens, and it is not the intention of fans to destroy his ego. It is their intention to light a fire in him and if that doesn’t work then go find yourself in the majors. This isn’t little league, if you can’t get out of the 3rd-4th innings on more than half your starts then you are out of your league.
Yeah it’s time to pull the plug on Hughes for now. I personally think he could succeed in Joba’s role in a job switch rather than demotion to AAA, but I don’t know which move is more psychologically damaging.
The one downside with transitioning Joba is that for the 3-4 weeks he is getting ready, the pitchers on the bubble may press trying to their spot if their is not an injury opening.
As for IPK, I think he deserves another month, I think he’s onto something.
“being that Phil is so young, do you think the yankees should go roy halladay on him and send him to A ball and let him work his way back instead of sendng him to AAA?”
That would serve no purpose IMO.
Go look at Hughes’ minor league stats. His career in the minors is one of the best ever for a pitcher.
“Yeah so the Mets fans were booing Santana this season because they wanted Mets management to get rid of him?”
First, half the Mets fans at those games are booing and they have no idea what is going on.
Second, they boo Santana because they don’t want him to give up any more homeruns. There is a difference between finding yourself and supposedly already having found yourself.
“being that Phil is so young, do you think the yankees should go roy halladay on him and send him to A ball and let him work his way back instead of sendng him to AAA?”
Nope, you send him to AAA. Sending him to A ball insults him and you don’t want that. Sending him to AAA sends him a message.
“Yeah it’s time to pull the plug on Hughes for now. I personally think he could succeed in Joba’s role in a job switch rather than demotion to AAA, but I don’t know which move is more psychologically damaging.”
As most people say - relievers are failed starters. Hughes has too many (projecting) plus pitches to be a reliever. No matter how much he fails as a starter, I don’t see ever making him into a reliever.
Jeff NJ -
I would just wonder if putting Phil Hughes in a set-up role would be putting even more pressure on him than there is now. And if his problem is not being able to locate his fastball, he’s not going to be effective no matter where he pitches.
The key for the Yankees if they decide to move him to AAA is to go to great pains to make sure Phil Hughes understands this is NOT A DEMOTION. It is an opportunity to re-charge, re-start, re-group in a less pressurized situation - where all he has to consider is his performance, and not whether he is hurting the team by learning on the job. And they need to point out to him the examples of excellent pitchers like Halliday also needing a “time out” so to speak and how beneficial it was to him.
They’ve committed to him and to Kennedy, and that commitment has to be stronger than that of the fickle fans who want instant gratification. If you say in the off-season that you understand there are going to be growing pains, but you’re willing to work through it, then you have to stick with that. And hope your offense will start to pick up the slack.
One of the things both of them need to learn is how to start a game off strong. Even a team with an offense that’s clicking doesn’t need to be behind the eight-ball before they’ve even come up to bat.
Russell NY
What “message” would that be? Get straightened out or else? I don’t think they send him down to send a message. He’s not a slacker.
“And they need to point out to him the examples of excellent pitchers like Halliday also needing a “time out” so to speak and how beneficial it was to him.”
Halladay is going to need a psychologist after his last few starts. I haven’t seen a pitcher get as mad as he did last night in a long time.
How about making a switch Joba should start and phil should go in the bullpen! As we saw phil could be a great reliever (last year in the playoffs) and everybody knows that joba as a starter is the real thing!
Doreen - the message doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative one. The message could be something like “you are out of your element and need to find it again”
Russell NY -
Maybe it’s the “mother” in me, but I think you need to be careful about exactly what they say. Telling him he’s out of his element is negative. Telling him he’s lost his focus is a lot more constructive without telling him, in so many words, that he doesn’t belong in the majors, especially after making it more than clear that they believed he did.
I feel very badly for Halliday. He was fuming yesterday, but, bottom line, he did put the runners on himself. I think they said he’s pitched 4 complete games with only 1 victory. I mean, the guy’s doing his job - but no help.
Leavie Freddie Sez alone. That guy is more of a fan then alot of the people who jumped on the wagon with the Yankees recent success.
I remember going to a game in the 80’s against the Twins. My father got tickets that happened to be right by him and he let me bang the pan numerous times. He is a Yankee Stadium staple.
Besides, who really cares what Suzyn Waldman is saying anyway?
Wow. Did someone die?
Let’s lighten it up a little.
Ever wonder what a cow in a Red Sox jersey would look like?
http://www.sexysoxgirls.com/index.php
Guys: Test your Yankee fanhood.
Doreen: As far as I could see (didn’t make it past the 3rd page), Miley Cyrus is not a Sexy Sox fan. (You’re such a prude!)
Roy Halladay is the best right handed pitcher in baseball…and sending him down to A ball made him what he is.
Really quickly because I’m running late for this lunch thing I have to go to:
I think after what Joba did last year and is continuing to do this year, everyone automatically expects Phil and Ian to do the same, and not only that, but they expect the other prospects to be Phil and Ian as well.
That Phil and Ian are struggling does not make them busts; it makes them somewhat more human (though if you can throw a fastball at 90 mph, you are by definition not human!).
All of this does, if anything, is emphasize how rare and amazing Joba is.
Also, for all the panickers, I suggest you look at the following
John Smoltz rookie stats
Greg Maddox rookie stats
Johan Santana rookie stats
Fausto Carmona rookie stats
I am positive there’s more where that came from, but as I said, I’m running late.
“First, half the Mets fans at those games are booing and they have no idea what is going on.”
Fair enough.
“Halladay is going to need a psychologist after his last few starts. I haven’t seen a pitcher get as mad as he did last night in a long time.”
Can’t blame him though, he’s thrown 4 complete games in a row and taken the loss for 3 of them.
He’s really incredible, already at 50 IP and we aren’t even done with April. Thats a quarter of the innings most starters throw and he’s done it in one month. At this rate he could get up to 250 IP or even more (although I doubt he will).
3.26 ERA, 31:7 K:BB, 88-28 ground out-fly out and only a 2-4 record.
Doreen - I didn’t mean they should give him a verbal message. Sending a players back to the minors sends a signal that is interpreted by the pitcher/player. So if the Yanks demote him without saying anything, it leaves it up to the pitcher to figure out why he was demoted (aside from the obvious - not pitching well). That is a lot more constructive then outright telling him he is out of his element. But if he happens to figure out for himself that he was slipping out of his element, then that IS constructive.
“3.26 ERA, 31:7 K:BB, 88-28 ground out-fly out and only a 2-4 record.”
Meanwhile, Wang has been just as dominant and doesn’t yet have a loss
“I still love the concept of a youth movement, but to think that any unproven talent was not worth giving up for Santana was a real blunder.
I wanted Hughes to succeed just as much as anyone (and believe he still may), but to think we coveted him or any other prospect over a pitcher at the calibur of Johan Santana was a mistake.”
Can we wait longer than 1 month before we declare the deal not made a mistake? Is that too much to ask for?
Secondly the deal or no deal is over and done with, look back but march forward.
It could always be worse. Let’s just be patient and let everyone heal and hopefully the Yankees can stay above water (or .500). We should be used to these setbacks by now - let’s just hope the postseason results are better.
“Those two injuries with Giambi from last year were completely different injuries. Remember, he tore the plantar fascia when he was rounding third base and his foot slipped off the bag.” -patrick
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2888734
“He originally was diagnosed with a bone spur and switched to shoes with orthotics that he said relieved the pain. Giambi then hurt the foot more severely when he homered in the seventh inning Tuesday night.
“Rounding the bases he felt a pop,” Cashman said. “There wasn’t a tear before. Now there is.”
Giambi traveled to New York on Thursday’s day off, intending to get a cortisone shot, but Hamilton said Giambi had plantar fasciitis, inflamed tissue that causes pain near the heel, and a partially torn plantar fascia, connective tissue between the heel and that base of the toes that supports the arch of the foot.”
completely different injuries? i wouldn’t be thinking about medical school if i were you .
“then hurt the foot more severely” is the operative phrase.
…kind of like posada then hurt the shoulder more severely.
….kind of like arod then hurt the quad more severely.
as i said yesterday, it’s not the end of the yankee year. the players will play themselves into shape. arod will be back at third base,and posada will be back behind the plate.
but don’t tell me that cashman makes good decisions about conditioning injuries. he doesn’t. he does other things well like scrambling well when the yankees are in trouble and his job is in jeopardy.
i’m guessing that skill will be in high gear this month and especially in the next few weeks .
I do think they should send hughes down to AA or AAA and bring up Rasner, so far rasner pitched better than hughes when he was up the last 2 years he just got injured last year and he doesn’t have anything to prove in the minors nomore, hughes should work on his changeup and start throwing it more during the game you can’t just throw fastball curvball again and again and again. Please god just let igawa be the ace of the AAA staff and DO NOT bring him up here.
And the yankees should release the Giambino or at least rest him on the bench the entire season, this guy can’t catch up on a 85 MPH fastball in the zone what a bust.
Russell NY -
When you say, “slipping out of his element,” do you mean forgetting what he’s capable of doing and has been capable of doing in the past? If so, that is different than what I thought you meant. I thought you meant he was in over his head, which I don’t think he is. I think, if anything, he’s not being able to put the individual failures behind him and approach each start anew.
Or, it could also mean, he’s used to warmer weather!
Meanwhile, Wang has been just as dominant and doesn’t yet have a loss
Wang has been amazing but not as good as halladay.
Halladay: 49.2 IP, 3.26 ERA, 31:7 K:BB, 88-28 GO-AO
Wang: 39 IP, 3.23 ERA, 27:11 K:BB, 50:38 GO-AO
Wang’s ERA and record are better but his peripherals and IP are worse. Both are pitching great but I think Halladay has been a bit more dominant.
“Roy Halladay is the best right handed pitcher in baseball…and sending him down to A ball made him what he is.”
Really? That’s what made him what he is? I thought it was the fact that he has good stuff.
In just my opinion, I said Hughes was in his element more meaning that he is not in the ZONE rather than being over his head. Right now, he looks out of his league because he is not in the ZONE. I know when I play baseball, I need to be locked in and have that Andy-Pettitte type confidence. What he really needs right now is to dominate to the point where he wants to take the next step. Right now, I don’t think he’s sure that he is ready to take that next step.
“Roy Halladay is the best right handed pitcher in baseball…and sending him down to A ball made him what he is.”
Lets send Eric Duncan down to A Ball.
“There wasn’t a tear before. Now there is.”
Thanks for proving my point for me.
“…kind of like posada then hurt the shoulder more severely.”
False, it’s the same injury as before. The tear isn’t any worse than it was initially.
“….kind of like arod then hurt the quad more severely.”
This might be true but it’s on A-rod for trying to play through it.
It’s Cashman’s responsibility to decide when to DL someone but he only knows as much as his medical staff and players tell him.
Both Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy were better pitchers in the major leagues last year than they have been this year. And both were pitching in high pressure situations last year - they were making key starts down the stretch of a pennant drive.
Why is that?
IMO they’ve had an entire off season to listen to and to think about how the entire yankee season depends on them. On how the team didn’t trade for Johan Santana because of them.
This isn’t an excuse - it’s just part of playing in NY while you’re a young pitcher. Now many people have and will continue to write both players off as players who “can’t handle NY” or some other such nonsense.
Both right now are over thinking what they’re doing and not trusting their talent to get hitters out.
Neither one of them has suddenly lost the talent they had that enabled them to get major league hitters last year. Yes those were “small sample sizes” but that’s besides the point - both showed they had the ability to get hitters out with the stuff they had. They were not over matched.
At his worst last year as he was trying to recover from the leg injuries - he never looked as bad as he did last night.
So again - the ability is there. Last year Phil as a 20 year old threw 73 innings of league average baseball (ERA of 4.46) with a WHIP of 1.28. If he was just doing that his year - and not even improving - that would be fine. Kennedy was even better in his three starts. And while Kennedy only threw 3 starts he did throw 19 innings. Joba last year threw 24.
I’m not convinced it’s time to send Hughes down. I think that really depends on what his confidence is like right now. And by that I mean - is his confidence shot. If it is - then they should send him down. If it isn’t then they should keep him in the majors. But only they are going to have a sense of that. Phil’s demeanor on the mound last night was not good but I don’t know how much that’s lingering with him. Girardi and Eiland will have a sense of that.
I’m not worried about this season. Concerned yes. But not worried. No team is running away with the division. The Blue Jays should be given how good their pitching has been - but they can’t hit at all. The sox have pitching issues of their own.
As long as Hughes and Kennedy haven’t aren’t completely losing their confidence and the division isn’t slipping away I’d give them a few more starts. But again their confidence is difficult to know from the outside.
ray, I guess youre uniformed..allow me to enlighten you…roy hallady was sent down and completely changed the type of pitcher he was. He became a sinker baller and changed his arm angle. Lots of pitchers have great stuff and suck, Roy went down, worked on some things and changed the type of pitcher he was and became the best pitcher in baseball.
Wow!
“A-Rod got booed then came out and dominated.”
Did he? A-Rod didn’t dominate the year he was booed. It took the off season for him to regroup and recover from the booing in order to get it together. Booing puts more pressure on a player and the last thing most struggling players need is more pressure.
“… it is not the intention of fans to destroy his ego. It is their intention to light a fire in him”
How often have you seen that happen? We have seen more players shrink under the pressure than thrive. Or worse shrink here and thrive elsewhere when they were run out town. Ever hear the saying , The path to hell is paved with good intentions and littered with faulty analysis. Seems to apply here.
“First, half the Mets fans at those games are booing and they have no idea what is going on.”
Ah I see, Met fans boo out of ignorance and Yankee fans boo out of intelligence. Thanks for clearing that up.
“but don’t tell me that cashman makes good decisions about conditioning injuries. he doesn’t. he does other things well like scrambling well when the yankees are in trouble and his job is in jeopardy.”
So if the team physician says the player is ready, and the player himself believes he is ready, then what?
I’m pretty sure that Cashman doesn’t have a medical degree and can only go by what his medical staff tells him.
Seems like it worked out fine listening to his doctors with Jeter, Molina, Farnsworth, and Joba, no?
I don’t know if anyone posted it, but according to MLBTradeRumors.com, the Mets are interested in Chad Moeller.
http://xrl.in/462
This has nothing to do with Santana. The Twins wanted Hughes, Melky and a top prospect and the Yankees would have had to sign Johan to 7 years $120M. No thanks, the Yankees have enough of the top paid players.
Change of subject, a few weeks ago SJ44 suggested the Yankees just have to survive April. So they’ll be a game above or below .500 after tonight and the division is close, they survived. There is no real break in the schedule for the next 18 games. Then the Yankees are done for the year with two of the projected best teams in the AL, Det and Cle. The rest of the year starting with the interleague schedule is really winnable. So really I would extend surviving April to surviving until May 18th. Then the Yankees will really put it together.
CB -I want to thank you for the most intelligent post of the morning so far.
I wish I was as eloquent on the keyboard as some of the people here, but I am not.
Randy l -
It seems to me that what the Yankees do is let the player take the lead in assessing his own injury, or at least his ability to play through an injury. I’m not sure that most teams don’t do the very same thing. I’ve heard so much that no player is ever at 100% really, so they’re all used to playing through something. We all have a different tolerance for pain and discomfort, too. If a player says, hey, I’ve played through much worse, what are they really going to do? With Posada, they did send him for an MRI the first time. Based on the review by the doctors, and by watching Posada throw, and from Posada’s assertion that he was ready to go, they let him go. What else could they really have done?
It also seems to me that on re-aggravation of an injury the Yankees get more pro-active. It’s like the players are allowed one recurrence, but only one, and then they’ll sideline them.
Giambi’s injury last year was not a usual one, and you know I did do the research, and I agree with you that it was not treated properly the first time. But players get muscle “strains” or “tears” or “tweaks” or whatever all the time and it seems to me there’s really no other way to deal with it but on a case-by-case, player-to-player basis.
Unless they adopt a sort of policy whereby any player who feels badly enough to come out of a game has to sit a minimum number of games after he says he feels better, but players will still fudge or lie about how they feel in order to get in there sooner.
Or, they could order up MRIs for every little tweak. Which I suppose they can afford to do. And then set a standard amount of gametime missed depending on the MRI result.
I just don’t see how the Yankees mishandle injuries any worse than any other team. Which is not to say they all couldn’t try to do a better job.
“roy hallady was sent down and completely changed the type of pitcher he was. He became a sinker baller and changed his arm angle.”
I may be uninformed but you do realize that there is a big difference in saying “Roy Halladay was sent down to A ball and became the best right hander” than what you said just now right?
And as I said earlier, Roy Halladay has good stuff and that’s what made him who he is.
To me there’s no such thing as a pitcher having good stuff but can’t command it. Part of having good stuff is commanding it as well.
“A-Rod didn’t dominate the year he was booed.”
A-Rod always dominates. Fans had a right to boo him for his poor performance. We don’t expect him to come out the next day and belt 4 homers.
“We have seen more players shrink under the pressure than thrive.”
We don’t want players who shrink under pressure. He is going to face it sooner or later and will have to deal with it at one point anyway. Don’t shrink.
“Ah I see, Met fans boo out of ignorance and Yankee fans boo out of intelligence. Thanks for clearing that up.”
… yes.
ray..youre a jackass…you know damn well what I meant…you just wanted to nit pick and start an arguement..youre a tight ass. please dont repsnd to anything I ever post.
Russell NY -
Thanks for clearing up what you meant. I can understand what you’re saying now.
CB -
That’s a good point you made about the two of them not just pitching, but thinking about every single pitch. And I agree you cannot judge Phil’s demeanor immediately after a lost game.