Today in The Journal News
-
- May
- 6
Robinson Cano hopes that home run he hit on Sunday was the start of something ” target=”_blank”>as he tries to emerge from his slump. Kevin Devaney Jr. has the story.
The Mets played the Dodgers in L.A. last night and Joe Torre commented on his new gig, his old gig and Willie Randolph. John Delcos was there for that story.
Torre told the New York writers that he speaks fairly often with Joe Girardi and called Jorge Posada when he went on the disabled list. The Dodgers won for the ninth time in their last 10 games as they beat the Mets.
——————
Andy Pettitte vs. Fausto Carmona tonight at the Stadium as Cleveland comes to town. Check back later for the lineups and other news.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, May 6th, 2008 at 3:12 am by Peter Abraham.
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Joe needs to get Andruw jones on a diet!
It’s no surprise that CMW’s bat did not help Giambi put an end to his slump. The batting ave. of Wang is 0.
Giambino, please come back to us.
Signed,
Faithful Yankees everywhere.
PS—I don’t like you, Kyle Farnsworth.
Gotta love looking at box scores and seeing Okajima and Papelbon used so much. That should bode well as the season moves on.
Speaking of box scores – it was interesting to note that Hideki Matsui is 4th in batting in the AL, and Derek Jeter is 10th. It was also interesting to note how much higher the BAs are in the NL than the AL!
The story in the Star Ledger focused on Giambi. It seems he and Kevin Long HAVE been working on trying to hit up the middle and the other way, watching tapes for possible adjustments to make, and all the things people have been saying he should do. Unfortunately, once the games begin, it doesn’t look like any of the work is paying off so far. Fingers crossed here that it will turn around for both Cano and Giambi in short order.
the giambi we have is all there is left. i see him being released twice in the next 2 years, once from the yankees and once by whomever takes a flyer on him after the yankees let him go. he’s toast.
alan, when you look at boston’s box score, you also gotta be conceaned that the yanks are 4 GB the sox and big papi and lowell have done nothing so far. thats an offensive explosion waiting to happen.
“Gotta love looking at box scores and seeing Okajima and Papelbon used so much. That should bode well as the season moves on.”
Think you letting the fact that they pitched 2 days in a row cloud your thinking. Okajima has pitched 8 innings in 3 weeks and only has an inning more than Joba this season. Papelbon is a little ahead of the pace they probably want him at though. But his game log suggests he’s probably not in too much trouble. He’s pitched in 5 of the last 7 games, but had a full week off before that. They are extra careful with him so I’d guess they give him tonight off for sure. They do need at least one more reliable reliever though.
I’d look for the Sox to leave Wakefield out there for awhile tonite, no matter the situation.
The problem for the offense is that both Cano and Giambi are struggling. If Cano gets going the rest of the team can pick up Giambi. However since Giambi’s glove is below average to be kind, what good is there in keeping him in the lineup if there are better options? Girardi and Long must see that Jason has something left.
I for one would like to see Shelly get a chance to play regularly.
If or when Ortiz and Lowell heat up Youkilis, Pedroia, and Ramirez will cool down.
Boston’s middle relief is shaky at best. Any decent outing by a starting pitcher sees Okajima, Papelbon or both used.
“Are you seriously that obtuse that a little joke gets you so upset? If you don’t find it at least a little silly that a manager with a record under .500 is being touted by a memorabilia company as one of the greatest of all time, I can’t help you.
I don’t talk down to my readers. I talk at the level of the smart ones.”
Pete, once again defending his ripping antics of Joe Girardi.
This is getting silly Pete. You aren’t even a columnist, you are a beat writer. Just give me the facts of the game, some cool clubhouse 411 and keep your insight for yourself.
Yeah, its silly. But let the guy make some xtra $$$ without you ripping him for it.
Pete and his agendas… Sheesh.
Between him and SJ44, this blog is becoming one big “I told you so” broken record.
I come here for Yankees news and coverage. Not to hear you ripping the manager and YOUR fan base.
Yeah, lets just make fun of the people that come to my blog. The same people that helped me morph from the unknown reporter in the Yankees clubhouse into someone that actually has a wee little bit of celebrity now.
You are letting your moderate fame go to your head, Abraham. You’ve become rude in every post after midnight.
Why don’t you lay off the Red Bull and vodka and trash-talking, and do a sequel to your CMW book in English.
Then you could make some ‘Girardi-on-the-side’ cash.
Ervin Santana for A-rod straight up
Check of the minors last night:
Robertson got a rude welcome to the International League allowing a couple runs on 2 hits and 2 walks in his first appearance for SWB.
Tabata has been on a little roll since coming back from suspension getting his average up to .229 by going 6 for 12 over the past few games. Still think he’s too young and too small for AA. He’s slugging .236 with 4 doubles his only extra base hits in 110 AB’s. Have to like the way he’s responded to the suspension though.
Another clean couple of innings from Melancon in Tampa. ERA is now down to three. Not putting up big K numbers but he’s been getting people out and that’s what it’s about. A trip to Trenton should be coming up shortly.
Dice-K Betances moved to 4-1 in Charleston on the strength of 5 2/3 of 3 hit ball. But he walked 7 while fanning 4. Kid has an elite arm. Batters are hitting .171 off him and he’s striking out 11 hitters per 9. He’s walking 7 hitters per 9 though. If he finds the command as he moves up, look out.
-I wonder how the NY media would handle a manager like Ozzie. He goes off and yells and curses at them. Joe G tells a little fib and they go nuts.
-Also last night Willie was asked if Oliver Perez is still in the starting rotation. His answer, he is until we take him out. Now how is that any different than what Joe G said? I have read any articles to see if the Mets beat writers have ripped him a new one.
My new tag line…. or handle.
Whooops. I meant this!
“Also last night Willie was asked if Oliver Perez is still in the starting rotation. His answer, he is until we take him out”
A little wordy, but didn’t he in essence say YES?
A little fib? Is there a difference between a lie and a lie? And the Girardi goes on his “show” and states that it is the media who misunderstand. Right.
The man is a liar. Get used to it.
Anyone know why Hacker was taken out after two scoreless innings in Tampa last night? Was that planned?
“he is until we take him out”
We hold these truths to be self-evident!
Jenn – The issue that got Girardi in to trouble with the beat writers was, to be polite, making statements at odds with reality. Manager speak is an easy thing to mock and you can’t blame a writer for holding up inane statements for ridicule.
If Willie starts fibbing, especially after last years historic collapse, you can bet the media is going to roast him over hot coals. I don’t think you can assume a Met manager would get more favorable treatment than a Yankee.
“A little fib? Is there a difference between a lie and a lie? And the Girardi goes on his “show†and states that it is the media who misunderstand. Right.
The man is a liar. Get used to it.”
Think that’s a bit strong A-point. No doubt that Girardi unnecessarily assumed a bunker mentality and has at times been less than forthright in some information he provided. But to call him a an out and out liar seems a considerable stretch.
yeah, he’s a born liar….and the other one’s convicted!
the trickle of criticism against cashman is starting to turn into a small stream as the national media is picking up on the hopefully temporary failure of hughes and kennedy. cashman’s ability to scramble is going to be put to the test in the next few weeks.
whatever back up plan cashman had better work and keep the yankees close to the red sox or the small stream will turn into a torrent of second guessing of his decision to pass on santana.
people make jokes about the twins new gm who was on the other side of the deal cashman passed on, but that gm has a 16-14 record . he lost the best pitcher in baseball and one of the best center fielders.
but what he did was do a little side deal for a pitcher for five million who has a 4-1 record and a 4.43 era in seven starts. the pitcher is livian hernandez. pitchers like this weren’t available as aback up plan? or has a buffer for the rookies to be worked into the rotation?
with so little resources, why is bill smith’s back up plan so much better than cashman’s especially when according to the general consensus on this blog that cashman is so much smarter than smith?
Willie essentially said the same thing Joe did. He just said it differently. Until we take him out, can be tomorrow.
Farm Question:
Anyone have an idea of what the pecking order is as far as farm hand call ups – ignoring Igawa and his mediocre-ness. Who’s on the 40 man roster limits who the Yanks can call up without making roster moves (designating, etc – which would rule out Geise etc), so with that – is it White, McCutcheon, Horne (who’s injured but recovering and should be good to go by late next week), Wright? Would McCutcheon jump White since he’s showing dominance? just curious…
“but what he did was do a little side deal for a pitcher for five million who has a 4-1 record and a 4.43 era in seven starts. the pitcher is livian hernandez. pitchers like this weren’t available as aback up plan? or has a buffer for the rookies to be worked into the rotation?”
Do you
seriouslybelieve Livan is going to finish the season with an ERA shy of 5.5?He’s not a good pitcher. A good innings eater, yes, but not a good pitcher.
He’s going to get shelled this year.
iv been a big backer of cashman for several years, but now im not so sure. i think it’s good things are where they are, cash doesnt want to talk about an extension and if i was the yankees, i wouldnt be offering any. Major changes are coming and i cant say that im sure i want cashman to be the one making them. Wait till the end of the season and we’ll take a look at the entirety of his time as G.M. and make a decision then.
btw, pete, your point of who is going to run the yankees if not cash was a joke. did you mean to infer that he’s the only person capable of being the yankees G.M.? this is one of the best baseball jobs that exsists and there are a ton of talented people outside of yankeeland who might well do a better job than cashman.
Cash wants to wait, thats fine, cause im not ready to bring him back next year either.
“Robinson Cano hopes that home run he hit on Sunday was the start of something as he tries to emerge from his slump. Kevin Devaney Jr. has the story.”
On this topic, I really don’t think so. He was cheating inside (check out Paul O’Neill’s commentary during the broadcast – he needs to do more hitting commentary, that was excellent) – he showed how Melky cheated in on his homerun, then Cano was cheating in and was way off balance on a pitch away. Silva, instead of taking advantage of that and staying away, went in with a hanging slider, which was
exactlywhat Cano was cheating in for.I don’t think that’s a ‘slump buster’. He needs to get some solid hits to break his slump.
Sunn:
White is on the 40 man. McCutchen I believe is not. As I understand it, White would likely be the choice if Igawa doesn’t get it done. As they only need the #5 three times in May, we may not know for awhile. I think the Yankees hope that Kennedy will find himself a bit in SWB and they can bring him back in June when they’ll need the #5 with greater regularity.
Honestly, I try to separate the ‘Cashman decisions’ and the ‘George Steinbrenner’ decisions up until a couple of years ago.
If Cashman had been in charge from day one (not getting players that George deems absolutely necessary), the Yankees don’t give up Javier Vazquez to get Randy Johnson, and they get Vladimir Guerrero instead of Gary Sheffield.
That’s just two HUGE baseball decisions that I would love to go back and reverse. Those weren’t Cashman’s fault.
What we see since Cashman has ‘been in charge’ was Johnson sent back for prospects, Sheffield ditched for prospects, a redo of the talent evaluation system and a SOLID restocked minor league system that
shouldbe paying off dividends over the next few years. Even if only 10% of the solid prospects pan out, there’s a few major league players that can serve as a core of the future team.My fear is that you RARELY ditch a GM to get a GM who does ‘more of the same’, and I’m a big fan of the direction Cashman is steering this team (a self-sufficient minor league system with enough extra pieces to trade for necessities, as opposed to a barren wasteland with a couple gems that are sold cheaply for the Steinbrenner crush du jour). If you ditch Cashman, do we go back to the ‘trade the system for aging veterans’ of yesteryear?
Great article
http://www.nyyfans.com/article/8869/
Whoa!! This is crude!!
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/slezak/933482,CST-NWS-carol06.article
“did you mean to infer that he’s the only person capable of being the yankees G.M.? ”
The point was that there is no obvious person in the organization that was groomed to take over. Pete went on to talk about Oppenheimer and some other guy.
Cash has been waiting for this coming off-season for ages. He objected to the Giambi contract which has been an albatross. He is going to be able to make more moves than he has been able to for a long time.
He can redo the rest of the rotation, fix 1B, make a few moves in the OF if he wants and put his stamp on the team for years to come.
IMO Cash is going to want to stay as long as there is no major blow-up with Hank. Hank has already said he wants him back. I think Cash is going to re-up for as long as he wants.
“Do you
seriouslybelieve Livan is going to finish the season with an ERA shy of 5.5?”has hernandez ever had an era over 5.5? it was 4.93 last year in over 200 innings.
you ‘re missing the obvious point that pitchers like livian hernandez were available and cashman passed on them.
ypu don’t think having a livan hernandez caliber pitcher on the yankees right now wouldn’t help ?
the twins have arguably more good young pitchers than the yankees do, yet they add a veteran retread pitcher who is helping the team. that smith guy is a real dunce?
V –
I absolutely agree with you about Vlad. That was one of the worst deals done for the Yanks. The fact that George S. forced that deal because Sheff was a Tampa local and had a good lunch with the Uber Boss still ticks me off.
““Do you
seriouslybelieve Livan is going to finish the season with an ERA shy of 5.5?â€has hernandez ever had an era over 5.5? it was 4.93 last year in over 200 innings.
you ‘re missing the obvious point that pitchers like livian hernandez were available and cashman passed on them.
ypu don’t think having a livan hernandez caliber pitcher on the yankees right now wouldn’t help ?
the twins have arguably more good young pitchers than the yankees do, yet they add a veteran retread pitcher who is helping the team. that smith guy is a real dunce?”
Livan Hernandez has
neverpitched outside the National League.He had an ERA of 4.93 last year. His peripherals are
notgood (check his K/9). I don’t think there’s ANY way he he maintains an ERA shy of 5.5.He had a good start against the Tigers. His start before that was
muchworse. He singlehandedly lost a game before his offense even had a shot – I think THAT will be the norm this year for him.He’s a Carlos Silva type, and won’t be good this year.
“that smith guy is a real dunce?”
That’s not an argument.
04/05 KC 1 0 0 7.0 7 4 0 2
04/11 @KC 1 0 0 7.0 7 0 1 3
04/16 TB 0 0 0 6.0 8 3 3 2
04/22 @OAK 0 0 0 6.0 7 4 2 3
04/27 @TEX 0 1 0 2.2 9 7 1 2
05/02 DET 1 0 0 7.0 8 1 2 4
He pitched versus Kansas City twice (ok the first time, good the second), Tampa Bay once (ok start), Oakland once (below ok start), Texas once (got destroyed), Detroit (good start).
Not promising, IMO. He’s going to get shelled.
Horne is on the road to recovery – would he superscede White?
Jennifer – thanks for posting that first link – great behind the scenes view…
livan hernandez has a heater in the low 80’s and throws breaking balls in the 60’s. Do we really need another moose with worse control?
V-
“that smith guy is a real dunce?†was meant to be “that smith guy is a real dunce.â€
it’s called sarcasm.
you ,v, seem to be a good example of the “general consensus” that thinks cashman can do no wrong.
you use phrases like “His peripherals are
notgood (check his K/9)” , but you are baseball dumb.do you have any clue how the twins develop pitchers and how they put a staff together? since you like numbers,do your self a favor and look at the twins pitcher’s stats right now.
you and cashman should both look at how the twins develop pitchers. you’d both learn something.
Jennifer: interesting link to the article about that stuff in the white sox locker room. it is pretty amazing how immature and sexist grown men can act like sometimes. it reminded me of when i read the bronx zoo, sparky lyle talked about the first day female reporters were allowed into the players clubhouse. yanks players put out a cake with a [male reproductive orgran] drawn on it and it said for the ladies only or something. also some of the guys walked around with their things hanging out in front of the female reporters to “shock” them. aren’t these guys ranging from their mid 20s to late 30s, in general? you’d think they were all 19-21. and i AM 21 and i think that way.
time to waste a lot of time here.. i have a world civilization final at 10:30 and im just gonna wing it..i really don’t feel like studying right now even though i have plenty of time. see what you do to me, peter?
“but what he did was do a little side deal for a pitcher for five million who has a 4-1 record and a 4.43 era in seven starts. the pitcher is livian hernandez. pitchers like this weren’t available as aback up plan? or has a buffer for the rookies to be worked into the rotation?”
Last year Minnesota also did a little 3mil dollar side deal for a pitcher. His name was Ramon Ortiz. In his first 7 starts he had a 3.80 era, hell he even beat the Yankees 2-0. He ended up getting cut in July when his ERA skyrocketed to 5.40. I expect similar results to happen to the Twins new great backup plan.
I’m willing to bet that Darrell Rasner will pitch better this year for the league minimum than Livan Hernandez will pitch for that 5 mil he’ll “earn”.
“Wait till the end of the season and we’ll take a look at the entirety of his time as G.M. and make a decision then.”
I didn’t know you were on the Yankees board. I’d think you’d be too busy to post on a blog with all of your Yankee duties you have to attend to.
randy l,
No one thinks Cashman is infallible. No one worth listening to, anyway. I don’t see anyone making a case for Igawa, for example.
It’s not fair to accuse someone of being “baseball dumb” because he didn’t think it would have been smart to sign Livan Hernandez in the offseason. Hernandez allows a ton of baserunners and doesn’t get strikeouts. I didn’t see anyone talk him up as a good idea for the Yankees preseason. Now that he’s had some (most likely fleeting) success, it’s all to easy to say “we should have signed him,” when that would have meant refusing to give Hughes or Kennedy a shot in the rotation. I think taking a chance on Hughes and Kennedy was smarter than replacing one of them with a mediocrity like Hernandez.
so im doing my all star ballot, and i wanted to know: does anyone know what the point of those “validation keys” they have now are? they’re on all kinds of websites now. i mean what purpose do they serve besides keeping people with vision problems from being able to register for things?
There are parts of the clubhouse that are off limits to reporters that they could have displayed that. They didn’t have to put it out in full view of everyone. It isn’t just the reporters walking around, you have the clubbies, i’m sure some of the players children were there.
If you read thru the comments on her article, it sounds like the country is full of sexist pigs.
Anyone that wants Cash let go….....are the same ones that have no history of the way things were done. Before 05, Stick/Cash had to fight with the big guy on every move, whatever it was…to trade or not. After Cash took over, things started working out (mostly). Stick/Cash are the ones that helped build the farm system and streamline the organization. Some of you don’t remember (or weren’t around) the BAD 60s’/70s’. Some of us were around then, the Stadium was called “The House that Geo. Wrecked.” Again, if he is so bad, why are there many other teams ready to hand him the keys? 27/08.
“the twins have arguably more good young pitchers than the yankees do”
No they don’t.
Livan is a mediocre pitcher, we have plenty of those guys. Jeff Karstens, Darrell Rasner, Steven White, Kei Igawa. The last time Livan put up an average season was 2005 and that was in the NL. He’s pretty old so it’s not likely he will bounce back after 2 years of regression.
What added benefit would Livan bring over Rasner? If we have an opening in our rotation guys like Hernandez are easy to trade for if needed.
George King should I say more
WHEN WILL THE JETER A.. KISSING STOP !
Jetes- .313/.339/.319
Matsui- .324/.411/.491
Bobby- .306/.363/.452
Melky- .291/.359/.505
Damon- .295/.394/.527
NEWS FLASH GEORGE KING III Melky’s been solid, Jetes has been solid but it’s been Matsui who has been our best player hitting, w/o him or Bobby this team would not have survived the blow of losing Alex and Georgy. How about they get a segment on your column
All 5 of those guys have kept our offense afloat. No Posada, No A-rod, Cano stinks (for the moment), Giambi stinks thats half our lineup. Matsui definitely deserves some love though he’s been great.
The Jeter A.. kissing will never stop btw, he’s Derek Jeter what do you expect
the stats above are w/ RISP, and if anyone has been watching notice how Hideki and I said this since Sunday, it took me awhile to realize how special a bat he is for this team, he sacrifice hits the ball to the right w/ a runner on 3B to get them in, he gets a productive hit more times than not w/ RISP, and he’s sacrificed his power swing to do it. Bobby is the 2nd best at this, then Melky.
Sunny615 ;
Nardi Contreras and Raul Chaves will be the judges of who is ready for New York. Their recommendations are valued.
oh I’ve been understanding that Patrick, I just don’t need George King making me spit my coffee into his column to start my morning.
‘It’s not fair to accuse someone of being “baseball dumb†because he didn’t think it would have been smart to sign Livan Hernandez in the offseason. ”
jeremy,
it’s not a matter of “fair”. i rarely ever call someone “baseball dumb”, but every now and then it’s fun to take on the blog. sometimes you just have to go against the stream and point out the obvious.
i’m not really picking on v, i’m picking on the consensus on the blog that cashman’s plan with young pitchers and the staff in general is a great one. it’s not. anyone with half a baseball brain can see that.
as i told v, take a look at the twins pitching stats and at the pitchers with those stats. there are young pitchers most fans haven’t even heard of putting up numbers that yankee fans would kill for. yet the twins added a retread like livian hernandez.
my main point is you have to have a back up plan on your back up plan with young pitchers. the twins know this, and cashman, v, and most on this blog don’t.
sometimes you just have to point out the obvious .
Brandon,
In actuality Johnny Damon has been the best player on the Yankees thus far. He’s been playing the majority of left field and he has a higher OPS than Matsui.
In fact Johnny Damon is having an MVP type of season thus far.
“Horne is on the road to recovery – would he superscede White?”
he throws his first time of the mound w/ all his pitches today, if all goes well which really his dad saids it’s gone real well for Alan, if it all goes good he will throw an intersquad game on Saturday. He would have been option B to Kennedy but w/ the injury bad breaks Sunny,now he most likely is not debuting in the ML till atleast late July to mid August since he has no real AAA innings under his belt.
Hey, Randy…would Livan have signed to pitch in the minors? No? Would he have signed with the Yanks KNOWING that the team had at least two kids they were hoping would step up to take his spot during the season?
It’s stupid to say the Yanks should have signed someone that had a better opportunity somewhere else.
“the twins have arguably more good young pitchers than the yankees doâ€
No they don’t.- patrick ( another of the baseball dumb)
who do the yankees have doing better than nick blackburn or boof bonser?
Year in and year out, Matsui has been a consistent RBI man. With runners on base, he as much as anyone is a good sight to see at the plate. Also an underrated baserunner.
His fielding skills may be iffy but with Giambi gone after this year, Matsui will DH in 130-140 games.
whozat ( another of the baseball dumb ,but not quite as dumb)-
you don’t think the twins have young players who could take over livian hernandez’s role?
somehow they signed him. and their payroll is 1/4 the yankees. how did they do that?
you are another example of those who says cashman is always handcuffed . there are no moves to make. no players out there.
there are always players out there. they just don’t fit in with your limited baseball mindset.
Anyone else concerned that the Yanks’ bats heat up when the weather warms?
Spring Training and May through September: hot.
April and October, cold.
Maybe we should recruit a couple cold-weather hitters (or hold Spring Training Riverfront Stadium in Newark
“as i told v, take a look at the twins pitching stats and at the pitchers with those stats. there are young pitchers most fans haven’t even heard of putting up numbers that yankee fans would kill for.”
Who? What level are they at? Had they already shown success at the MLB level?
Look, we KNOW that Hughes has the stuff to succeed at this level. For whatever reason, it had deserted him and he wound up hurting himself. Do you REALLY think Hernandez would have signed to wait in the minors in case someone in the Yankee rotation struggled? Especially KNOWING that Joba was slated to move into the rotation halfway through the season?
We figured Kennedy would show the command that has always been his calling card. For mental reasons, he hasn’t. It was totally reasonable to think that, among Moose, Hughes and Kennedy we’d get at least 2 reasonable performances, and then the worst one would be replaced by Joba midseason. WHY would a veteran pitcher have signed on to jump into that mix?
“who do the yankees have doing better than nick blackburn or boof bonser?”
Chien Ming Wang. Who by the way was drafted and developed by the Yankees. But let’s just ignore this fact.
Wang is also only 1 year older than Bonser and 2 years older than Blackburn.
“who do the yankees have doing better than nick blackburn or boof bonser?”
Chien-ming Wang. Bonser and Blackburn are both 26, Wang is barely 28. Bonser and Blackburn are mediocre at best.
Go look at the yankees minor league system. They have more young pitching than any team in the majors. That doesn’t even include Hughes.
It’s funny that randy l thinks that everyone on this blog knows nothing about baseball except for himself. We all have no idea what we are talking about, he’s the only one with a clue. What an arrogant fool.
“sometimes you just have to point out the obvious ”
The only thing obvious to me is your stupidity.
“somehow they signed him. and their payroll is 1/4 the yankees. how did they do that?”
Dude you are a moron. The twins are not a good team. They will finish below .500 this year and compete for last place in the division. Their pitching is really not good at all and their offense is a joke. Nick Punto gets significant play time on the twins. Nick Punto. Let that sink in.
“who do the yankees have doing better than nick blackburn or boof bonser?”
THESE are the guys you’re holding up as comparison???
These guys are Rasner. They’re replacement-level 26 year olds. These are not Phil Hughes. Ian Kennedy’s floor is these guys. These are not guys you make space in your rotation for. They are back-end filler, and blocking the development of one with Livan Hernandez is no big deal.
“Last year Minnesota also did a little 3mil dollar side deal for a pitcher. His name was Ramon Ortiz. In his first 7 starts he had a 3.80 era, hell he even beat the Yankees 2-0. He ended up getting cut in July when his ERA skyrocketed to 5.40. I expect similar results to happen to the Twins new great backup plan.”
the twins were 5th in the league with a 4.05 era in 2007
glad you’re on board with the success of back up plans the twins use.
the point is it doesn’t matter if ortiz or hernandez flames out. they are deep in options. they make and create options.
you really think cashman develops more pitchers than the twins do or puts a better mlb staff together? i thought you liked numbers. you must not be looking at them.
not really …raymagnetic
check the splits RBI, 21, 17, 17 (Bobby,Matsui,Melky)
Runs 25,16 15 (Damon,Melky,Bobby)
RISP
Jetes- .313/.339/.319
Matsui- .324/.411/.491
Bobby- .306/.363/.452
Melky- .291/.359/.505
Damon- .295/.394/.527
Damon has woken up lately, but w/o Matsui his singles, 2B, mean nothing.
check these past 10 games:
Damon- 9 R, 6 BB, 2 RBI
Melky- 3 R, 3 BB, 7 RBI
Bobby- 4 R, 4 BB, 5 RBI
Jetes- 8 R, 1 BB, 3 RBI
Matsui- 5 R, 4 BB, 7 RBI
I mean Damon has been solid but Matsui is the guy that’s driving them in, heck Melky’s been underrated and Bobby even though he plays better D than Damon when it doesn’t involve the wall.
“he twins have arguably more good young pitchers than the yankees do, ”
“you and cashman should both look at how the twins develop pitchers.”
Name me any pitcher the twins have internally developed over the past 5 years who is anywhere close to being as good as Wang or Chamberlain?
Since Santana their system has been largely dry. And even Santana was not internally developed as a prospect – he was a rule V draftee and went immediately onto the major league roster.
Baseball America ranked the top 5 baseball farm systems specifically for pitching prospects only.
Tampa Bay was #1. The Yankees were #2. The twins were no where in the top 5.
This is baseball america’s rankings of the top farms systems in the majors this year. This ranking considers both pitching prospects and position player prospects:
1. Rays
2. Red Sox
3. Reds
4. Rangers
5. Yankees
6. Dodgers
7. Rockies
8. Braves
9. Nationals
10. Angels
11. Mariners
12. Padres
13. Cardinals
14. Marlins
15. Diamondbacks
16. Orioles
17. Mets
18. Twins
19. Indians
20. Cubs
21. Brewers
22. Phillies
23. Giants
24. Royals
25. Blue Jays
26. Pirates
27. A’s
28. White Sox
29. Tigers
30. Astros
In terms of Baseball Prospectus, coming into his year the yankees were ranked 6th. The Twins were not in the top 15.
Over the past 3-4 years the Twins have done a terrible job of internally developing players. There system is nearly empty of any legitimate position players.
They also are generally considered to have done one of the poorer jobs in the draft over the past few years.
That has not been the same organization it was in the heyday of Terry Ryan. It just hasn’t been. That’s just an old perception people keep sticking too.
Much of the recent emphasis on the Twins pitching prospects is only comparative. While they have very few well regarded position player prospects they have some pitchers – but even guys like Blackburn aren’t top rung prospects.
In fact NONE of their pitching prospects is considered a true blue chip prospect. Delios Guerra is still too raw and young to and doesn’t throw hard enough to be considered a true blue chipper. It’s still to be determined what he is.
Brian Cashman has already said that he examined what the twins did at the height of their success under Ryan and that was part of the reason why he decided to change the direction of the team to go with internally developed young teams.
But the Twins franchise over the past few years is in no way a model for the development of young players.
That’s why they’ve fallen down to 18 in terms of organizational rankings.
4 years ago the yankees were ranked the 22nd best farm system. Now they’re 5th – and that’ going to go up this year based on the tremendous talent and success their charleston team is having and the early signs of the TJ surgery guys coming back well.
There is no comparison between the Twins and the Yankees in terms of player development right now – whether for pitchers or hitters. The yankees are the far better organization.
Brandon,
Damon is the leadoff hitter on the Yankees. His OPS+ is 154 compared to Matsui’s 150. He also plays the majority of left field.
“I mean Damon has been solid but Matsui is the guy that’s driving them in”
Of course Matsui is going to have more RBI than Damon. Of course he also wouldn’t have RBI opportunities if Damon didn’t get on base.
“glad you’re on board with the success of back up plans the twins use.
the point is it doesn’t matter if ortiz or hernandez flames out. they are deep in options. they make and create options.”
There is no difference in what Livan Hernandez will bring over what Rasner will bring. Well except for the money they are paid that is.
The 8 mil they wasted on Livan Hernandez and Ramon Ortiz could have went towards a new contract to Santana.
What Minnesota is doing is basically throwing away money that they can ill afford to lose. And you think this is a good plan?
“V-
“that smith guy is a real dunce?†was meant to be “that smith guy is a real dunce.â€
it’s called sarcasm.
you ,v, seem to be a good example of the “general consensus†that thinks cashman can do no wrong.
you use phrases like “His peripherals are
notgood (check his K/9)†, but you are baseball dumb.do you have any clue how the twins develop pitchers and how they put a staff together? since you like numbers,do your self a favor and look at the twins pitcher’s stats right now.
you and cashman should both look at how the twins develop pitchers. you’d both learn something.”
CB said it best, but the moment you start interjecting insults is the moment you lost the argument.
I know the Twins’ pitchers stats right now. I drafted Boof Bonser on my fantasy team (
deepleague) (ahead of Shawn Marcum, who I regret not taking).Didn’t mean to post yet, but take a look at the game logs of these pitchers. Several of the offenses they’ve faced are NOT good offenses.
RBI’s are a product of who hit before you. While they are important in terms of wins, it is really more a team stat than an individual one.
A home run that drives in 3 runs may not be what wins the game, but just pads on to the drubbing given.
To me BA plays a heavier role in the importance of a batter. OBP is another. RBI doesn’t mean a whole lot.
“To me BA plays a heavier role in the importance of a batter. OBP is another. RBI doesn’t mean a whole lot.”
Yes but lets look at two players. Player 1 is 30 for 100 with 30 singles, Player 2 is 28 for 100 but with 14 singles, 7 doubles, 7 home runs. I’d take player two even though his BA is less. Thats why you have to look at OBP and slug or just look at OPS (obp + slub) to help determine a player’s value. BA and RBI’s don’t really give a ton of info as to whether a player has been valuable or not. SO I half agree with you
“To me BA plays a heavier role in the importance of a batter. OBP is another. RBI doesn’t mean a whole lot.”
OBP is more important than AVG. SLG is too. Though men on base versus RBIs is an important stat as well…how many opportunities does a guy cash in?
that was my arguement AP, Damon has been good lately, but Matsui has actually done a Superman behind the curtains. He’s been our best player other than Abreu and Melky, Raymagnetic do we count Damon’s defense in the OF that allows more runs to score too ? statwise RISP Matsui has handled this the best.
My feeling is that all offensive statistics with regard to BA, BA with RISP, RBI, are all inter-related. They are equally important. You can’t have RBI if other people aren’t on base, and you can’t score unless someone else gets a hit to drive you in.
FYI, I completed a regression analysis project this past weekend (for class) – OPS (On Base Plus Slugging) of a team’s players over the course of the season is the best predictor for the runs they score (duh ;-)).
Batting Average is a horrid predictor.
CB – good read. You can tell some posts here breed from the back page of Newsday. Your source is less biased.
Doreen people that get on base can be found, they are the table setters, guys that drive them in more times than not are hard to find in this game. This is why I’ve been making the arguement for Matsui.
A multi variable regression with On Base Percentage and Isolated Power was #2.
“Since Santana their system has been largely dry”
cb ( not one of the baseball dumb ones)-
you’re one of the adults here, but you can’t be serious.
blackburn
baker
neshek
bonser
garza
liriano
crain
slowey
all pitchers who have helped the twins be 5th,2nd,5th, and 1st in pitching i era in the past four years.
the success of a staff is the total ranking it has, not it’s high end prospects only.
the fact is the twins organization has been vastly superior to the yankees organization in putting a major league staff together, and they do it on 1/4 the cost.
touting the cashman and yankee pitchng developmental genius is just being in denial. the facts of major league results don’t back it up.
“somehow they signed him. and their payroll is 1/4 the yankees. how did they do that?”
Livan who?
Brandon,
I don’t really know what Damon’s or Matsui’s Zone Rating is this year but he has played twice as many games in the field as Matsui.
I would think that a player who’s even average in the field is more valuable than a player who’s not on the field at all.
Damon has better offensive numbers than Abreu, Melky and Matsui this year. He has the highest slugging percentage on the entire TEAM so far this year.
What Damon has done so far is Rickey Hendersonesque. That’s how good he’s been up to this point in the season.
raymagnetic, I’m pretty sure Matsui’s zone rating is better, this should be when CB or Whozat adds thier 2 cents into this debate.
blackburn – mediocre
baker – same
neshek – good setup man
bonser – much anticipated but turned out to be mediocre (also another prospect that wasn’t originally in the minnesota system)
garza – good fastball but thats about it
liriano – amazing stuff but his arm is destroyed, who knows if he will ever bounce back
crain – mediocre reliever
slowey – ceiling similar to Kennedy’s
They have had some success but nothing to write home about. You want a team that has been great at developing pitching go look at the Angels or Oakland or Atlanta in the 90s.
randy – I can’t tell if you are joking. Liriano has been hurt and Garza just got traded. Bonser is no good. Don’t know too much about the other guys and you know why? Because the Twins have been garbage for quite a while now. Especially with Santana gone.
Watch the Twins play Boston and Toronto at home this upcoming few weeks and tell me after that they will be contending for a playoff spot.
Bonser and Liriano were from the Giants. They weren’t really developed by the Twins.
Brandon,
Currently Johnny Damon is the second best LF if the AL. The only one who’s been better is Carl Crawford.
Matsui’s Zone Rating isn’t even close to Damon’s.
“My feeling is that all offensive statistics with regard to BA, BA with RISP, RBI, are all inter-related. ”
I think this is a really good point and its one that is getting lost a bit as new statistics keep getting developed in baseball.
Its not an either or proposition where some statistics are good and some are bad.
Basball’s like that saying about three blind men all touching an elephant and describing it in completely different ways because they are describing different things.
The more information you have and the more information you put together the better off you are.
In general OPS is a very useful stat but it has limitations as well.
Take for example a decision that the yankees may have to make this off season between two potential free agent first baseman – Mark Texeira and Adam Dunn.
Now for a second just forget their defense and the money it would take to sign them. (And don’t laugh at the comparison because Dunn is much better than what many people think despite the strike outs and low batting average).
Dunn and Teixeira have almost identical career OPS’s – both around .900. (dunn .896 tex .905)
Despite that I wouldn’t consider them to be equivalent offensive players.
Why? Because while they both have similar career OBP (tex .370 and Dunn .380) how they generate those OBP is very different.
Tex gets on base much more by getting hits. Dunn much more by drawing walks.
In general I’d much rather have a guy getting on base through hits than walks, especially in a line up like the yankees because they are often going to be men on base when they come up.
There’s a saying that a walk is as good as a single – but that’s not really true if there are men on base.
I don’t think the RBI is a great stat. But it’s more likely that a guy who gets on base through hits (even singles) is going to drive in runs than a guy like Dunn who gets on base much more through walks.
It’s all useful information – not equivalent as making outs is bad. But piecing things together gives you the best sense, IMO.
“touting the cashman and yankee pitchng developmental genius is just being in denial. the facts of major league results don’t back it up.”
Um, usually, development of players has a
lag time. Hughes won’t be a major contributor as a top flight starter until at least 2009.Santana and Nathan are the largest contributors to the Twins’ pitching success.
Bonser? Slowey? Baker Huh?
Howsuccessful have those three been, exactly?Bonser was horrid last year. He lost weight, and should be solid this year, but nothing better than what Kennedy’ll be by 2009. In fact, all three are ‘Kennedy-esque’ in their abilities (probably will be ~4.00 ERA, low walk, OK strikeout guys over the course of their careers).
The Yankees easily have better on its way.
(but no, I’m baseball dumb, :rofl:)
ok I’m biting my nails now, it seems D’Antoni is going to sign w/ Chicago, oh brother Tyrus Thomas the next Amare
CB, I like Matt Garza, quite a bit. Didn’t the Twins develop him? I know they traded for Liriano. When I watched Garza last year he impressed me as much as Hughes, quite frankly. Obviously, the Twins knew something we didn’t.
Bill Smith has hardly impressed, true. But Terry Ryan’s ability to sustain a competitive team, year after year, with little payroll has to qualify him among the better GMs in baseball.
Hey Jennifer thanks for the article. Was a good read.
Hey Jennifer thanks for the article. Was a good read.
STUPID Knicks management ! You don’t let D’Antoni go to Chicago ! what the F’ is wrong w/ you
Dang, we’re a feisty bunch this morning. Guess we’ve gone to long without baseball, huh…
the turn around in the Yankees’ farm system is amazing. I have to wonder how much of it is due to Cashman being given control of baseball operations.
“Currently Johnny Damon is the second best LF if the AL. The only one who’s been better is Carl Crawford.
Matsui’s Zone Rating isn’t even close to Damon’s.”
Zone rating is a very strange statistic as it depends on the methodology used to come up with the statistic in the first place – in particular how the field is divided up and responsibility is assigned for batted balls to different fielders. This is fairly common when new statistics are developed – there’s no set agreement on how best to calculate them.
In general, as I understand it, the best Zone Rating statistics come from Baseball Info Solutions – they use the best, most careful methodologies.
The Hardball Times (an excellent source) gets its statistics from Baseball Info Solutions in order to calculate their relative zone rating statistics.
As I understand it, the hardball times relative zone rating is the best zone rating statistic publicly available.
The Hardball Times relative zone rating for Matsui is 1.000 (94 innings played – only 17 chances making 17 plays).
Their zone rating for Damon is .931 (194 innings).
ESPN uses a different methodology for zone rating. Because Matsui hasn’t had that many chances his zone rating will vary a lot depending on the system used to calculate the statistic.
Yankee Fans should start preparing for the June draft and the July Free Agent int`l signings what will the Yankee budget be? i say approx 9 million.
Dunn also strikes out way too darn much, which further minimizes the opportunities for creating runs with men on base. (Teixeira K’s 120) (Dunn 180)
However, in Dunn’s favor, he average more pitches/PA, despite striking out often, 4.2, than Teixeira, whose averages over the last few years near 3.9 – 4.0 pitches/PA.
You don’t want D’Antoni. Talk about a coach not preaching defense. Well that’s what you have with D’Antoni.
Knicks need to bring in a coach that actually knows about defense.
Rate my fantasy team…its a ridiculous league..22 categories, 12 teams…Head 2 Head…I have no idea why I even came into this league, its a complete crapshoot from week to week because of all the ridiculous categories and its a head to head format…Personally, I dont like it, but I took over the team for a friend and made alot of changes…this is the team that Im fielding now….
1B..Case Kotchman/Joey Votto
2B..Jeff Kent/O Dog
SS..Orlando Cabrera/Bobby Crosby
3B..David Wright/Kevin Kouzmanoff
C..Bengie Mo/Ryan Doumit
OF..Ichiro
OF..Chrs Young
OF..Jacoby Ellsbury
OF..Andre Ethier
OF..Shane Victorino
Josh Beckett
Roy Oswalt
Shawn Marcum
Daisuke Matsuzaka
Scott Olsen
Matt Capps
Troy Percival
Jonathan Paplebom
Hey Brandon i’m very happy the Knicks didn’t get D’Antoni. His brand of basketball doesnt win championships. You can’t get to the ship playing that run and gun try and score 120 points every night because the good defensive teams will shut you down.
Brandon, the Knicks arent going to be good for a VERY long time. The are the new Hawks….and Im just in complete shock over what happened to that franchise…after Ewing left it was all down hill. Very sad.
CB,
Thanks for the information. I know where to look next time.
Rebecca I saved this a long time ago it should inform more people on Cashman’s all around involvement w/ the Yankee system, it credits Eppler and Opp and Rios, talks about the Tampa regime struggle (Bill Emslie, Billy Connors and Damon Oppenheimer) and Cashman’s job, the good and bad.
source
This from MLBTRADERUMORS:
“Yanks Eyeing Derek Lowe For ‘09?
According to Tony Massarotti of the Boston Herald:
There are already indications that the New York Yankees will be among Derek Lowe’s suitors during the offseason.
That’s not the point of Massarotti’s column; he’s mainly discussing Lowe’s leverage given his unique durability. I did a piece of Lowe recently; Scott Boras should be able to get him at least three years and $39MM. Does he make sense for the Yankees? Could he succeed back in the AL East for his age 36-39 seasons (or more)?”
Got this article from Buster’s blog…it’s written by an Indian’s reporter: “Yankee Stadium Memories”
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1210062891307540.xml&coll=2
The next new sabermetric quantifier: pitch effects. MLB now uses a high-speed camera that enables analysts to parse video frames shot at 1/100 of a second and to assess a ball’s spin, rotation, trajectory, and drop on pitches.
Evidently, not all curves, fastballs, and changeups are alike.
Pitch Effects identified Clay Buccholz’ changeup, for example, as moving differently than practically every other pitcher’s in baseball.
Naturally, the Sux already employ a pitching effects expert, Dan Brooks. Do the Yankees?
All those interested can download a podcast from Baseball Prospectus in which Will Carroll interviewed a game named Mike Fast.
“Hey Brandon i’m very happy the Knicks didn’t get D’Antoni. His brand of basketball doesnt win championships. You can’t get to the ship playing that run and gun try and score 120 points every night because the good defensive teams will shut you down.”
this is so untrue, first the players here aren’t going to change, second his team was a suspension away from going to the NBA Finals if it wasn’t for David Stern’s BS suspension to Amare. Third the no defense was also a product of his team not having defensive players other than Raja Bell and Shawn Marion. The bulls don’t have this problem and D’antoni to the Bulls is a dangerous mix, this guy not only makes it fun for the player, but has an understanding in offensive sets that I haven’t seen in this game in some time. You watch Tyrus Thomas and Ben Gordan and Loul Deng and Kirk Heinrich look like a dangerous team if this move happens.
The Knicks could have gotten him because his attention to detail, that’s BS that Antoni doesn’t preach defense you watch.
“I like Matt Garza, quite a bit. Didn’t the Twins develop him?”
KS,
I like Garza a lot. But for whatever reason his stuff in the minors has not translated into the majors – it’s sort of a head scratcher as it doesn’t seem to be the usual case of a guy overthrowing.
His health problems also worry me. That nerve impingement problem could be a big deal if he needs to have surgery.
And ultimately he never really went onto contribute for the twins at the major league level.
The Twins never completed his development.
Branon: thanks for the link!
no problem.
“The Knicks could have gotten him because his attention to detail, that’s BS that Antoni doesn’t preach defense you watch.”
It’s absolute BS. D’Antoni is a Popovich disciple and what he wanted to do as a coach unfortunately was not conducive to the team he had in Phoenix, especially come playoff time. Knicks should want his kind of coach, given the choice of the Bulls situation vs. the Knicks situation, it’s a no brainer for him to take the Bulls job.
anyone else who wants a sneak peek at the article
“This was not Cashman’s move. he argued against acquiring this human out-maker. In fact, Cashman was dumbfounded when Damon Oppenheimer- who was objecting to Miguel Cairo’s agent playing hardball- blurted out on a conference call: ’**** for that kind of money we could get Tony Womack’. One can only imagine the silence that followed that phone call.”
I wouldnt take the Knicks job
randy,
In the future I’d appreciate it if you didn’t refer to me as ”( not one of the baseball dumb ones)-”
I don’t want to be associated with comments that are implicit insults at other posters here.
I think this entire thread about the twins has taken on a rather unfortunate tone.
The only thing that makes this board work for discussing baseball is the fact that people are generally good about not insulting other people. It happens but not that often. That’s a big difference between this board and the vast majority of other baseball blogs.
That’s why when guys like anti-mussina make comments the threads turn into something awful. It’s just spirals into insults.
Referring to three regulars on the board as “baseball dumb” doesn’t really help make for good conversation.
If you feel the need to insult other people’s intelligence here that’s your choice.
But please don’t involve me with it in any way as insults over the internet are things I don’t care for at all.
What’s that article excerpted from Brandon? And where do I get a copy?
I’d like to see Mark Jackson get the NY gig.
Mark Jackson is probably the only person who would take the job.
“The next new sabermetric quantifier: pitch effects. MLB now uses a high-speed camera that enables analysts to parse video frames shot at 1/100 of a second and to assess a ball’s spin, rotation, trajectory, and drop on pitches.”
I completely agree with this. This new data is going to fundamentally change how baseball is evaluated, prepared for and played. The impact it’s going to have on both hitters and pitchers will be enormous. The data is already getting used to do some interesting things.
It was great to see my Dodgers beat the Mets last night. I’m also gratified that Joe is thriving in LA-LA land. I only hope the sun doesn’t bake his brain.
I’m actually thinking of going to the Dodgers-Mets series at Shea, sporting my Torre Yankees shirt and Dodgers cap.
I’ve never been to the Flushing Sewer.
““This was not Cashman’s move. he argued against acquiring this human out-maker. In fact, Cashman was dumbfounded when Damon Oppenheimer- who was objecting to Miguel Cairo’s agent playing hardball- blurted out on a conference call: ‘**** for that kind of money we could get Tony Womack’. One can only imagine the silence that followed that phone call.—
I wonder exactly how much truth lies in this story.
Would Cashman trust someone to run the draft who thought that Tony Womack would be a good acquisition?
Or could it be that may be why Cashman was dumbfounded when Oppenheimer blurted that out?
KS it’s an old article I found years ago I just refound it this morning it was har to locate it on my hard drive but it really does illustrate alot of inner doings through what Cashman is rebuilding.
IP:Cashman Delivers
was hard to locate it * (I need more coffee)
Tony Nobat
Thanks, Brandon! I bookmarked it for next time
KS,
I didn’t know you were also a Dodgers guy. You are in for such a treat later this summer.
Clayton Kershaw is going to be just phenomenal. The only defect in his game last year was his control (walking over 5/9).
So far this year his control has been much better – only walking 3/9 so far this year.
Like all young pitchers, particularly ones just out of high school, he’s going to struggle but if he stays healthy he’s got almost no ceiling.
A left hander like that is a once in a generation arm.
now I remember it was around July 07’ when I found this but I saved it in a folder and didn’t see it until this morning. Amazing ain’t it.
Folks, Wang was not drafted. He was an international signee the scouts signed out from under the Mariners’ noses.
Brandon:
Did Mrs. Cashman write this? Seems the piece is willing to give Cashman credit for all the good that’s gone on while putting the bad elsewhere. Like what he’s done with the farm since he’s been given control, but don’t buy into the slant of whoever the writer is.
I said it was an old article Fredo, really it hasn’t been that off, I know what you mean though w/ the credit talk.
I’m TKinDC and I approve this pro-Melky propaganda:
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/05/a-lighter-melky-leads-the-way/
“Folks, Wang was not drafted. He was an international signee the scouts signed out from under the Mariners’ noses.”
He was extremely unpolished. He didn’t even learn his best pitch until AAA. I count him as a Yankees’ developed player.
oh man Tony Womack, one name I could’ve gone through the day without hearing
twins era ranking:
2007- 5th
2006-2nd
2005-5th
2004- 1st
that’s my answer to all the baseball dumb people who think yankee pitching is better than the twins.
i defy anyone to deny the above stats that prove twins pitching has been consistently better than the yankees.
the only reason i’m challenging a whole lot of people on this blog who think cashman is doing a great job with the pitching staff is that they are just plain wrong. what’s the value of this blog if it’s the baseball dumb reaffirming the baseball dumb ?
cashman’s plan needs tweaking and one of the first places to look for clues on how to do it is how the twins did it and are doing it.
they look well on their way to another top 5 era pitching ranking this year.
clearly they know something that cashman doesn’t .
“i defy anyone to deny the above stats that prove twins pitching has been consistently better than the yankees.”
Thats not what we’ve been arguing. You said that the Twins have more young pitching than the Yankees which has been proven untrue by several people on this blog. You also said that Livan Hernandez would be a useful pickup for the Yanks which has also been proven false by numerous people on the blog.
“what’s the value of this blog if it’s the baseball dumb reaffirming the baseball dumb ?”
Well according to you everyone but yourself is “baseball dumb” so why don’t you make your own blog and post comments to yourself all day long.
“cashman’s plan needs tweaking and one of the first places to look for clues on how to do it is how the twins did it and are doing it.”
No thanks.
“they look well on their way to another top 5 era pitching ranking this year.”
Very doubtful.
Aren’t the Twins pitching stats skewed a bit because of Santana?
As great and as dominant as he has been, its not surprising the Twins pitching stats are as good as they were from 2004-2007.
In terms of evaluating Cashman’s ability to develop pitching, isn’t it safe to say we won’t know that answer for a few more years?
Basically, the Yankees only fully commited to developing pitching from within since Cashman took full control in 2005.
Unlike the Twins, who have had to develop from within because of their cheapskate owner, the Yankees are new to this concept.
Isn’t it fair to say we need more time to see how guys like Chamberlain, Kennedy, Hughes, Brackman Betances, Sanchez, Robertson, McAllister, Horne, McCutcheon, Cox, etc do before we say Cashman hasn’t been good at developing from within?
It may well be that he will be gone by the time we know that answer. He may stay and either enjoy the fruits of his labor. Or, most of these guys bomb as prospects.
Right now though, you have to admit, guys like Wang and Chamberlain are pretty nice finds. We are seeing results from Ohlendorf. Its WAY too early to give up on Hughes. That’s a positive start.
There isn’t a baseball publication in the business who today ranks the Twins pitching prospects ahead of the Yankees. Not one.
The key will be if a group of these guys go from prospects to real contributors at the major league level.
Isn’t it fair to say we need more time to see how guys like Chamberlain, Kennedy, Hughes, Brackman Betances, Sanchez, Robertson, McAllister, Horne, McCutcheon, Cox, etc do before we say Cashman hasn’t been good at developing from within?
YES exactly
Somehow randy began his argument by saying the Yankees should have signed Livan Hernandez. Then his argument morphed into saying that the Twins have better young pitching right now than the Yankees do. Now the argument has morphed again to him saying the Twins had better pitching in 04-07 than the Yankees did. It seems to me that the only “baseball dumb” person around here is randy.
Livan Hernandez? I don’t know. Did the Yankees need to spend 5 million dollars to sign a guy who is basically Darrell Rasner and Jeff Karstens at this stage of his career.
If the argument is, “The Yankees should have signed a veteran pitcher as backup in case Hughes and Kennedy struggle”, that makes sense on the surface.
The issue becomes, who and for how much?
It was a bad pitching market in the off-season.
The information the Yankees had on the off-season was as follows:
Hughes was 3-0 in September and won their only post-season win. Off that information, was there any reason to think he would struggle badly coming out of the gate?
Kennedy? An argument could be made they thought more of him than they should. Here’s the rub though. If you sign Livan (or someone of that elk), Kennedy starts the year in AAA. There is no way you pay a guy 5 million bucks and not have him in the rotation.
Clearly, the Yankees didn’t want to go in that direction. Were they correct?
Honestly, I don’t see what Livan brings to the table. That’s why you have guys like Rasner and Karstens.
For 5 million bucks, you have to have a guy that can win games in the AL East. Can Livan do that? I don’t think so. He’s off to a good start. However, its a LONG season.
Let’s see how the AL adjusts to his slow stuff and see if he holds up.
When your #4 or #5 starters, or any two starters for that matter, either get hurt or struggle, you are in scramble mode. I don’t care who the team is.
The Angels lost their top two starters. They solved their issues from within. They are a big market team like the Yankees and, like the Yankees went with internal options rather than spend for veteran pitchers.
On the surface, the concept of having a veteran “backup” to the kids makes sense. Its when you look at who that is, and how much you have to pay for that “security”, is when you have to determine if its worth it or not.
“Well according to you everyone but yourself is “baseball dumb†so why don’t you make your own blog and post comments to yourself all day long.”
patrick-
ypu seem like a nice kid. kid is the operative word.
the simple truth is cashman doesn’t compete well with the twins management as far as pitching goes.
I don’t know Randy. Who on the Twins right now have the upside of Chamberlain, Hughes and Wang?
Liriano did before his elbow injury. That’s it.
Prior to 2005, I agree with you.
2005 until now? The Yankees have more pitching prospects than the Twins. Really, at all levels of the system.
I named 11 guys above that are significant sized prospects at all levels of the system.
The Twins don’t have 5 guys who can compete, from a prospect perspective, against the 11 guys I listed above.
That’s a sea change in player development in just 3 years.
randy l, patrick has made intelligent and convincing arguments in response to your condescending remarks. Now you’re calling him immature? Please give it a rest. This has been an interesting discussion and I don’t want to see knowledgeable commenters driven away because you think people are dumb and childlike for not thinking Livan Hernandez was the answer during the offseason.
“Unlike the Twins, who have had to develop from within because of their cheapskate owner, the Yankees are new to this concept.”
sj – bingo! that’s my whole point , and that’s precisely why i say it’s a good idea to look at what the the twins have done and are doing.
there’s a reason why they sign a retread like livian hernandez for 5 million. i think it’s smart to pay attention to what that reason is since the twins are consistently good in pitching.
i don’t take on the blog without thinking about it and i don’t usually call people baseball dumb, but the blog consensus that cashman knows what he’s doing has just gone too far. the reality is that, as you say , he’s in uncharted waters.
i don’t want him fired. i just want a better plan than the one he’s operating on.
Livan Hernandez was also their opening day starter (and was guaranteed to be in their starting rotation anyway)
What veteran pitcher would’ve signed up as a back-up option? That’s usually scrap heap territory, no?
patrick-
ypu seem like a nice kid. kid is the operative word.
the simple truth is cashman doesn’t compete well with the twins management as far as pitching goes.
Ah so first I was dumb and now I’m a kid. And yet the “kid” is the one that knows how to operate the shift key.
Look randy, you obviously have no good response to any of the arguments that have been placed against you so you resort to insults. Unless you decide to stop acting immature and put forth real arguments to back up your points I’m done responding to your drivel.
But, the plan he is operating under since 2005 IS the plan you want. It just takes time to see the results.
Prospects don’t get developed in 2-3 years. It takes longer than that.
Derek Jeter made 56 errors his first year in A ball. Can you imagine in todays enviornment, if the “future Yankee SS” made 56 errors in a season? Folks would be killing the Yankees for “wasting a draft pick”.
I know the folks who are either Anti-Cashman or netural about Cashman hate hearing it but, it is relevent to look at the Yankees organization from 2005 to today with regard to player development.
That’s because that’s the time Cashman was given full control and put the resources back into player development.
Since that time, young players have come up and helped the Yankees every year to make the playoffs. Frankly, since that time, the Yankees have “out-twined” the Twins.
The waste has been in bad free agent signings and bad veteran pitching decisions. Not with younger players.
The key is, its just starting. The next 2-3 years will see more players coming up through the system that will help the parent club.
Will they all be stars? Of course not. But, there will a number of guys who will have very successful major league career.
There will be others who will be used as bait to acquire the right player or two to round out the team.
In other words, the Yankees are acting like a real baseball organization again instead of one big ATM Machine.
Some of these prospects (Montero, Jackson, Brackman, Betances) have the potential to be big-time players.
The Yankees are on the right track. They are making up for years of farm system neglect in a relatively short period of time. Unfortunately, due to the age and decline of certain players on the parent club, its not fast enough to help them in certain areas this season.
ahh….. baseball talk – stay out of the A-rod thread … just stuff I don’t want to hear about just yet lol
I posted this in the other thread but they’re just talking about babies, so what do you think for tonight – think i’m gonna be close?
Damon LF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Matsui DH
Giambi 1B (UGH)
Cabrera CF
Cano 2B
Ensberg 3B
Molina C
Pettitte goes 6 5 3 3 2 5 (woo Quality start!!)
“Look randy, you obviously have no good response to any of the arguments that have been placed against you ”
patrick-
i’m not an arguments kind of guy. i’m a see the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball kind of guy. i don’t care about debating points.
there are about ten people that i come on this blog to read and you’re not one of them, so by all means don’t read my comments or respond. your choice.
” Since that time, young players have come up and helped the Yankees every year to make the playoffs. Frankly, since that time, the Yankees have “out-twined†the Twins.”
sj-
i don’t see it that way with pitching and that’s what i’m talking about. the twins have sent up many more pitchers than the yankees have to help the mlb team over the past three years. their present staff is full of them and the twins are out performing the yankees staff so far this year.
i agree it takes time for development. but is cashman really taking time? hughes was clearly rushed last year. unfairly he’s now labled injury prone. he’s not . he was just rushed. one thing that stands out to me when i look at twins and red sox young pitchers as compared to yankee young pitchers. the twins and the red sox pitchers are older at the same level.
that seems a small thing, but maybe part of cashman’s problem is actually that he lacks patience with his young pitchers. maybe most of them need more time in the minors before they come up. there seems like a two year difference in twins prospects coming up and yankee prospects coming up.
maybe adding a retread starter for 5 million in 2008 would have bought him time so that hughes and kennedy could have developed slower and been older when they came up. you do realize that hughes career is starting to be in jeopardy. too much too soon can easily snowball.
i really like hughes as a pitcher, but i think he needs time back in triple a to develop at a more natural pace. maybe the best thing for him would have been to have been traded to the twins . he would then