“I’m going to make these guys look stupid”
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on May 07, 2008 
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Check out this quote from Ian Kennedy last night:
“I’m trying to say it humbly, but it doesn’t matter what I say, it’s going to come out cocky. You just know. I woke up today and told my wife, ‘I just have a feeling I’m going to make these guys look stupid.’ â€
That he did. One hit over 7.1 innings and eight strikeouts. Now moving down the Charlotte Knights is not the same as the Detroit Tigers, but at least Kennedy seems to have his mojo back. He was that guy we saw last year.
Lots more good stuff from Kennedy at the invaluable Chad Jennings Scranton blog.
The pressure is on Kei Igawa now. If he doesn’t pitch well on Friday, the Yankees have options. Kennedy will likely pitch again on Sunday.
From reading Chad Jennings’ blog – which I strongly recommend – Nardi Contreras feels that the Yankees will soon have a lot of options. Nice.
Very nice, I like.
Better making AAA batters look stupid than making himself look stupid. What a difference a day makes. Still won’t be sold til he does it in the bigs (even last year he was doing in September call up season), but I like the way he approached it last night.
That’s good that he’s cocky, I love to see that in a player.
Get em Ian!
Attitude really means a lot. In my opinion that’s definitely the kind of thing you want to hear him say.
“Still won’t be sold til he does it in the bigs (even last year he was doing in September call up season), but I like the way he approached it last night.”
Of course. But it certainly seems like a guy who can annihilate a AAA team like that should really be able to go 5-6 innings a start with an ERA in the mid 4′s. And that’s all reasonable people expect from him. It just seems like it’s all in his approach. It’s not that he was missing the corners and guys were swinging…it sounds like he was pounding the zone with quality strikes instead of being afraid to throw the ball.
“These guys” being Charlotte, or the Yankees for sending him down?
The pressure is on Kei Igawa now ???…oh, yes,,,this should be good…this total BUM who can only rough up ( ant this year, not so much, actually ) AAA hitters, is under pressure to pitch well when he faces MLB batters that CRUSH pitches up in the zone ( where his pitches LIVE and THRIVE )…oh, yes…THIS is going to have a good ending…
Question of the Day to throw out for discussions:
At the trade deadline this year, the Indians approach the Yankees with the following offer:
Ian Kennedy, Zach McAllister and Jose Tabata for CC Sabathia.
The Indians decide to trade him at the deadline feeling they have no shot at signing him and want more than just draft picks in return.
Sabathia, through his agent, let’s the Yankees know he is willing to forgo free agency to sign a deal with them.
Do you do the deal or not?
Something to kick around today.
yeah who is stupid, AAA players of the yankees?
If you read the rest of the quotes, it seems most likely that he’s talking about the hitters. You can read it the other way if you want, and I’m sure the radidiots will do so in order to stir up controversy.
Have the Yankees officially announced that Kei Igawa is going to come up to make the start? I’ve had a feeling that they keep saying they are 99% sure it’ll be Igawa so that the guy they are going to bring up (McCutchen maybe) won’t have to deal with a week of scrutiny before he makes the start. Any ideas?
Shows he has no respect for the Yankee organization, period.
SJ44,
If the Yankees seem like their headed to the playoffs and CC Sabathia continues to perform like last year then yeah I’d make that deal.
This is a win now team and CC, Wang, and Pettitte look like a devastating 1-2-3.
I must say though, letting go of Tabata hurts.
“Do you do the deal or not?”
Depends on who else is offering what for him, how Hughes and Joba are doing, how Jackson is doing in AA, and how Horne and McCutchen are looking.
Also, what I’ve been hearing from CC has not been encouraging in terms of him thriving under the NY spotlight. He really seems like more of a small-town guy. He could be Contreras or Vasquez revisited.
SJ44, tough question without knowing where the yanks will be in the standings around then and now knowing how Kennedy has or hasn’t progressed at that point….
that said i might have to pull the trigger.
SJ44, you know how to stimulate a discussion. A very real scenario, though.
Since this is placed in the future – the trade deadline – injuries and performances, etc., may pop up.
But based on current status of all players, I think I would try to do it without including Tabata, on the theory that the Yanks have a good number of pitching prospects, but not so many position/hitting prospects, and I would want to keep those, such as Tabata. Would also try to bargain down from IPK/McAllister. McAllister looked good last night, but it was A-ball. IPK is essentially MLB ready, just needs to get his head on a little better.
But, essentially, unless injuries are in play, I hold onto that deal, and work something out – though I would hold onto Tabata, much as Arizone held onto Micah Owings.
“I’ve had a feeling that they keep saying they are 99% sure it’ll be Igawa so that the guy they are going to bring up (McCutchen maybe) won’t have to deal with a week of scrutiny before he makes the start. Any ideas?”
The 1% is in case there’s an injury between now and then or he can’t get to Detroit or something crazy, according to what I read yesterday.
Anyone see this? Wowie wow wow:
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.c.....5072655396
SJ no deal, I get him for free next year and Nardi really really likes Zach, he’s been probably the most dominant prospect in the system.
to me yesterdays game from ian proved me that he is not ready for major leage because if he would strugeled yesterday i would say he has to improve his stuff but now that he pitched so great there, that shows me its a head problem. That makes him not ready for MLB!!!
*not knowing*
“This is a win now team”
???
That is blatantly false. If it were, they’d have traded for Santana, signed Carlos Silva to be the 4th starter for the next four years at 12 mil per and continued to be bogged down with weighty contracts.
SJ: Tough call, but I go with no unless one of those guys is out of the mix.
SJ
I dont think so. Im not sold on CC holding up through a long term contract
why do they keep running on Ankiel’s arm it makes no damn sense he’s always had a plus plus arm
SJ44:
Turn Tabata into Austin Jackson and I think Shapiro bites.
“to me yesterdays game from ian proved me that he is not ready for major leage because if he would strugeled yesterday i would say he has to improve his stuff but now that he pitched so great there, that shows me its a head problem. That makes him not ready for MLB!!!”
So…if he needed to improve his stuff, he WOULD be ready for the majors?
What yesterday showed is that Kennedy has the stuff to succeed. He just has to get his head in the right place. A lot easier than figuring out and commanding a new pitch. If he throws another good game with the same kind of approach, I think the organization has to stay true to their word and say “great job, kid, now get up here and keep doing THAT!”
I wouldn’t do it at all, Ian Kennedy, Yes. Kennedy and Tabata/or Jackson and McAllister…..Hellllllllllll no
“Turn Tabata into Austin Jackson and I think Shapiro bites.”
The guy is 2 months away from having to take draft picks at that point. You think that offer is the floor of what he should hold out for?
I’d part with Tabata or Jackson–I mean, I like them both, but with Melky playing as well as he is it’s a bit of a crowded outfield.
I don’t know why I wouldn’t part with McAllister. Let’s just call it a hunch.
whozat you think people here realize you can get him w/o prospects this offseason ?
“That is blatantly false. If it were, they’d have traded for Santana, signed Carlos Silva to be the 4th starter for the next four years at 12 mil per and continued to be bogged down with weighty contracts.”
This isn’t a win now team?
Everything they have done in the past decade has proven that.
Signing a mid 30′s catcher and a late 30′s closer to huge multi-year contracts just reassured that. The difference now is they have good farm to go along with the 200 million dollar payroll.
this is a win-now team most of the time
SJ, I just don’t think the Indians will deal with NY.
CLE is a well run team, Shapiro is a smart GM, I doubt he’ll work with his main competition over the next few years.
IBut,,,if CLE does want to do the deal, and CC is pitching 90% of what he was last year, I make that deal.
“The guy is 2 months away from having to take draft picks at that point. You think that offer is the floor of what he should hold out for?”
I don’t think Sabathia gets traded anyway because nobody in that division is good enough to pull away. I also wouldn’t rule out the Tribe signing him. But if I did move him, I’d ask for a lot.
If the Indians deal with the Yankees they will ask for a lot. Even more then what SJ44 proposed. It’s almost like a Santana-esque deal. Where you trade a ton of prospects for a pitcher who’s a FA at seasons end.
I’m not a big fan of Sabathia so I would have to pass.
No. I’m not even sold on Sabathia as a free agent, so if you have to give up players to get him, then I really don’t want to do that.
I think CC is going to end up staying in Cleveland, though.
whozat- you didnt get my point i said that a head problem is much harder to fix than a mechanical problem! Got it!
“I wouldn’t do it at all, Ian Kennedy, Yes. Kennedy and Tabata/or Jackson and McAllister…..Hellllllllllll no”
I agree with Brandon. If the Yankees want Sabathia wait until he’s a free agent. Kennedy Tabata and McAllister is way overpaying for 3 months of Sabathia. I wouldn’t even go Tabata straight up for Sabathia.
“This isn’t a win now team?
Everything they have done in the past decade has proven that.
Signing a mid 30’s catcher and a late 30’s closer to huge multi-year contracts just reassured that. The difference now is they have good farm to go along with the 200 million dollar payroll.”
meanwhile CF is patroled by a 23 yr. old, 2B by a 25 yr. old, the crown jewel is a SU/ACE, another BP arm is 26, they promoted BP arms in thier 20′s to Scranton, the callup uty was a 24 yr. old. When the veteran catcher went down they didn’t sell the farm, the 2 SP in thier early 20′s are still big options for 08′. The only now left on this team is Jetes, Georgy, Alex and Mo.
i wouldnt sign sabbathia for any more than 3 years and he’s certainly going to want more than that.
“Everything they have done in the past decade has proven that.”
They’ve changed philosophy. It’s a team that’s trying to put together a sustained run of championships. Probably, only one of Jackson and Tabata will work out. They’re the only position players that could be really excellent major leaguers that are above A ball. Sending away one of them AND a cheap, solid back-end guy, along with another really interesting young arm is counterproductive to their long-term strategy.
As for Mo and Jorge…it’s not like there were any other, better options for this year OR the next several. Jorge will be a solid DH at the end of the deal, and Mo will probably still be a solid middle relief arm in the last year of his deal at MINIMUM.
That’s a lot to give up for a guy who would be a couple months away from free agency. Though they’d probably trade him regardless so it’s July or never.
If it looks like we’re in, or we’re very close/need that extra boost – I say pull the trigger. Tabatta is a prospect that everyone is following in the Yankees organization but we’re set up to win now, and having CC could put any team over the top. The only team that would be able to compete with CC, Wang, Pettitte, (Joba?) would be the Diamondbacks (Webb, Haren, Owens, Unit) but I would take that Yankees staff over Webb/Haren any day.
This would be a win-now deal but going into 09 our rotation would be CC, Wang, Joba, Hughes to start…. not bad at all, and we have other outfield prospects that would fill in for Tabata (assuming he even pans out).
“ou didnt get my point i said that a head problem is much harder to fix than a mechanical problem! Got it!”
I did get your point. Your point is just wrong, that’s all.
I shelve the question until we see more of Sabathia’s work this season (his most recent outing was 6.1 IP/4 ER over 10 hits against Royals on May 3…note that all 4 runs came in the 7th; 2 from relievers letting inherited runners score)
Bandon even the Yankees have their limits.
I refuse the notion that a 200 Million dollar payroll isn’t in it to win it now.
So, to move on SJ’s question, which guys would you give up for Santana?
I have a method to my madness.
Aside from stimulating a little discussion, when I was in Charleston, the Indians had 2 scouts at every game.
My feeling was, they were beginning to do some recon work to see what prospects are out there if they decide to put CC on the market.
The reason why I chose one player from AAA/ML, 1 from AA, and 1 from A ball was as follows:
When teams make these deals now, they are looking for balance (with regard to prospects) in return.
If they can get 1 from each class, they feel like they have something to build on.
I chose Kennedy because of the most ML ready kid pitchers, he is the one most likely to be dealt by the Yankees.
I chose Tabata because he and Austin Jackson are the legtimate ML prospects (from a position standpoint) in Trenton.
I chose McAllister because he and Betances (along with Heredia but, he is hurt right now) are the bigtime pitching prospects in Charleston for the Yankees.
There are pros and cons to the deal I am proposing.
The pros: Ironically, the Yankees have replacements for the guys in my proposed deal at every level of the organization.
If you lose Kennedy, you still have Joba and Hughes. With Horne and McCutchen waiting in the wings.
If you lose Tabata, you still have Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. You also have Abe Almonte in Charleston. Keep and eye on him. He is a player.
If you lose McAllister, you still have Betances, Brackman and Sanchez (who are coming off injuries) and Ryan Pope, who is in Tampa right now and throwing very well.
You add CC to a rotation that features Wang at the top of it, Joba and Hughes at the back end, and Pettitte in the middle, that’s pretty formidable. Four of the 5 pitchers are under 30.
As far as, “you can get him for nothing in the off-season”, not necessarily. When you open it up for bidding, anything can happen. There are no sure things in today’s free agency. Everybody has money nowadays.
By getting him off the market now (if indeed the Yankees want him), you get your man and you are able to use the off-season to fix other parts of the team.
The cons. Aside from the big money, is whether CC is worth a long term investment. A HUGE (pardon the pun) question.
Can he handle NY? I have no idea of the answer to that one. I know he is a Bay Area guy but, he’s always liked pitching in NY, FWIW.
Just something to talk about today.
Sorry, I just posted this one in the wrong thread:
I’m not worried about Chamberlain.
I’m not worried about Kennedy.
Assuming Kennedy recalibrates his mindset against the marshmallows he’ll pitch against in Scranton, he could carry it back to the Yanks. This is why I thought it wasn’t a bad thing that he said he was aware his confidence wasn’t there. Once he proves to himself that he has it at the big league level, he’ll be fine.
Still not worried about Joba. If you look at CB’s post about ERAs for various starters, Joba could give up 4 runs a game as a starter and help the team a lot. Even Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez gave up a few 3-run HRs in their prime. Maybe the whole situation will get Joba all pi**ed off (whether in general or at himself) and next time he’ll come out throwing 103mph heaters and a slider that looks like it takes a 90 degree turn right in front of the plate.
It’s matter of what either guy sees when he looks down in the shower. (unless it’s the top of Manny Ramirez’ head they see, but that’s not the point) What I really mean is, the adversity they face could make them tougher and therefore better, depending on how they handle it.
Of course some people will over analyze and over criticize every time they give up a run or two. Watch – sometime in August when either one has a tough inning but their line through 7 innings ends up being 2 or 3 runs on 6 or 7 hits, people will say in the inning they’re scored upon that Ian’s not ready for the big leagues or that Joba should be in the bullpen. Even if they both have 4 straight quality starts leading up to that game (actually, that IS a quality start) chicken little and company will come out en force.
Both of those guys Ankiel threw out looked safe to me. The throws were impressive though.
I wonder if we will hear about that good old Manhattan game from Russo again today..
I say no to CC. I think he wants to stay in CLE plus I’m not convinced he can handle NYC pressure.
I’d still go for CC as a FA after the season.
ok now I understand your madness SJ
whozat- we will have to agree to disagree! you know who else has a head problem and has never recovered its not good to link ian to him but Kie agawa has a head problem not stuff problem!
Igawa has more then a head problem – he has a “i like to throw curve balls belt high” problem.
It’s similar to Mussina’s “I like to watch Manny hit home runs” problem
I don’t make that trade. I roll the dice with what we have this year or explore other options for a guy under contract longer. If we want to get CC, try so in FA after the season.
Did anyone else hear when peter gammons threw roy oswalt name out and how the yankees would be a likly trade partner? I would do those names for him.
Some scuttlebut that Sabathia would prefer the left coast to the right if he left Cle. Certainly the Dodgers will have some coin to throw his way.
Yeah it is easy doing it to AAA hitters. Who’s to say that he would of pitched the same up here? He had no pressure so he was fine. If that start was in the majors he probably would of did his usual 2 innings. He should just be quite and let his pitching do the talking because he was dreadful and scared to throw strikes up here.
Igawa just has problems
“you know who else has a head problem and has never recovered its not good to link ian to him but Kie agawa has a head problem not stuff problem!”
These two cases are extremely different. Igawa has an approach problem built up over an entire career in Japan AND a command problem. Kennedy was just batshy and didn’t trust his stuff.
SJ” Iti’s a very intriguing situation. Let us know what happens!
As far as making a trade such as this, as many GM’s will tell you, it has hurt a little bit to make a deal.
You don’t get a guy like Sabathia without giving up some talent in return.
From the Yankees perspective, if they were to pull a trigger on a deal such as this, its gonna hurt a little.
I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t do it. Just talking about the paremeters of making such a deal.
Meanwhile, for you “they should trade for Jon Lieber” fans, he just gave up 3 HR’s and counting in the second inning against the Reds.
3-0 Cincy, still batting in the second.
“Who’s to say that he would of pitched the same up here? ”
Who’s to say he wouldn’t have?
Point is, he’s rebuilding that confidence. Given that his problem was exactly that, it’s good to see him swaggering around a bit. Gives reason to believe he can turn it around.
“Meanwhile, for you “they should trade for Jon Lieber†fans, he just gave up 3 HR’s and counting in the second inning against the Reds.”
Oh, did Francessa and Mad Dog switch to that horse? I guess someone convinced them that Arroyo was an idiotic trade target?
I just realized even more what a dangerous SOB this guy is going to be
in 137 premature ABs:
4 HR, 25 RBI, 11 SB (.342/.453/.795) 21 R
guess who it is LoHud, hint: he plays in Charleston
“Point is, he’s rebuilding that confidence. Given that his problem was exactly that, it’s good to see him swaggering around a bit. Gives reason to believe he can turn it around.”
That’s true – a guy that is trying to rebuild his confidence – I want to see a little cockiness out of him.. and if he keeps pitching like that (when he gets back to the Yankees) he can go out and say anything he wants.
William Buck:
Why Oswalt over Sabathia??? Oswalt is 31 this year. Sabathia is younger than Wang. If I’m dealing some of my youth, I’d like to get a guy with some prime years ahead of him. Only argument for Oswalt I can see is his existing contract carries him thru 2011 w/ an option for 2012. Of course, that may compel the Stros to ask for even more.
Rebecca,
I have no inside info on it. I just connect the dots.
When you see Indians scouts at Yankee minor league games, its not for fun. They are doing research.
I’m sure they will also be at Red Sox, Dodger and Mets minor league games as well.
Mark Shapiro is a very smart man. He is going to have all the data available to him to make an informed decision if they decide to trade CC.
He will know precisely the guys he wants to take back in any Sabathia trade.
He’s not Bill Smith. He is going to center on what he wants and if he gets it, he will pull the trigger.
Jon Leiber just gave up home run #4 in the second inning. 5-0 Reds.
jon lieber getting LIT UP by the reds, 4 homers in the 2nd inning!
That’s a tough deal. On the one hand, you are getting a young ace to lead your staff with Wang, and the kids that follow. A 200+ inning, left handed, Cy Young horse who’s currently 27 years old. The Yanks do not have a formidable left handed starter in their system, nevermind a power throwing one. I’ve got serious questions about CC’s weight, and stones, but he’s really important to the Yankees. I’d hate to give up high end pieces for a guy who’s free in 2 months, but if the contract is reasonable, and contingent to the deal, I have to seriously consider it. Santana is a better pitcher, but he’s also older, and IMO, more expensive in both contract length, $$, and prospects. Interesting proposition SJ. Kennedy will never be Santana, and we’ve got Hughes, Joba, Horne, Mclutchen, etc coming up, with assorted other arms like Betances and Heredia, etc. Interesting deal. I think I’d ask for something with Sabathia. Would they ever give up Betancourt? I’d even expand it a little if they would. He’d be nice to have when Joba moves to the rotation.
Oswalt has a no trade clause and rumor has it, he wants no part of NY. If true, the Yankees aren’t a match for him.
Personally, I’d for Sabathia over Oswalt. Not a lot of lefties out there.
I know who he is Brandon. Question is can he play something other than 2B, a position on the big club that is now filled for the foreseeable future. Can he play short????
I think he stays in the OF or learns 2B in his future Fredo, but for a leadoff man
Thats why Fredo, shorter term contract. I believe oswalt also to be the better pitcher and more likely to hold up thru 2012
Not worried about Chamberlain at all. Kennedy, not so sure.
It’s one thing to act cocky after you’ve dusted a AAA hacks, it’s another to do that to Oritz and Ramirez. Is he the guy who was dominant against Toronto last year? Too early to say.
Fredo, Sabathia is not younger then Wang. There the same age. Actually Wang is a few months younger.
Forget Oswalt he has a NTC to come to NY. but he doesn’t going to Boston though.
SJ: You’d make a great detective!
That aside, Mark Shapiro is considered one of the better GMs in the game, isn’t he?
He knows what he’s doing, and the Yankees aren’t getting anything from him without giving something up.
True there aren’t a lot of LH quality starters. Also not a lot of 300 lb quality starters.
I like CC, but the size is a big red flag over what would be a 6 yr deal at least.
Excuse me Wang is older by 4 months.
You can count on IPK’s words being twisted by that waste of protoplasm, Michael “If You See” Kay.
Just wait. That Giant Head will make it sound like he did a terrible thing.
Jerk!
I like it, though. The kid has guts and an ego. That’s GOOD.
That’s part of “the essentials” a pitcher needs!
Go, IPK!!
Kei Igawa has already made these guys look stupid. Hope Kennedy does it in another way.
Jax, i heard about the NTC too. But the chance to win may give him a change of heart, maybe andy could persuade.
Peter gammons said it, so it must be true
(j/K)
you want a shot at ripping a team off aim for a team like Tampa Bay, they scout well trade iffy, or the SF Giants very poor in trading talent. I’d personally like Kazmir over Sabathia, younger has a tendency of not overthinking and when on shuts down an offense for 8 innings…Tampa would want a few BP but we run the risk of making them a contender so I’d aim for a team like SF in the NL.
Whatever Ian. Those were effectively just double A hitters.
Brandon:
Kazmir may well end up on the block with Price, Wade Davis and McGee all not too far off. When/if it happens, the price will be monumental.
If Tampa trades Kazmir, it won’t be to the Yankees
mets should see if they would take zambrano back for him. haha
Good point Brandon. If you’re going to trade that kind of talent go get Kazmir. I always liked him. Plus he’s a Sox killer.
Tampa won’t trade us Kazmir any sooner than Boston would trade us Bucholz or Beckett.
“Ian Kennedy, Zach McAllister and Jose Tabata for CC Sabathia.”
Ian Kennedy is replaceable if you get CC. I would like to be sure about Austin Jackson before I give away Tabata. That being said – keeping CC from FA would be very beneficial and we could possibly get him cheaper… with the leftover money going to replace Tabata.
There really isn’t another pitcher out there. The Yankees NEED CC much more than those 3 guys.
HOWEVER – if the big CC contract puts Teixiera in the dark then I would really die.
“HOWEVER – if the big CC contract puts Teixiera in the dark then I would really die.”
alla Carlos Beltran going to the Mets because we were set on the big whining unit……….
“I’d personally like Kazmir over Sabathia”
Just wouldn’t be ideal for the Yankees – unless they can give up Kennedy. But it would put them in the same spot… they need a lefty pitcher or two. We have Wang, Moose, Chaimberlan, Kennedy, Hughes… all RHP. Yankee Stadium, with the short right porch, is a lefties dream. All we have is Pettitte.
So would you guys rather Sabathia or Teixiera?
Don’t worry about whether or not it has a chance in heck of happening, just purely theoretical here.
“If you’re going to trade that kind of talent go get Kazmir. I always liked him. Plus he’s a Sox killer.”
Kazmir would command WAY more than that. Also, you’re concerned about injury with CC, but not with Kazmir? Last year was his first with over 200 innings…and he just made his 2008 season debut a couple days ago. Younger does not always mean more durable.
“alla Carlos Beltran going to the Mets because we were set on the big whining unit……….”
True… but look where we ended up. I love Melky Cabrera. And we had all that money to sign A-Rod, who is a far better player.
Tex is really a beast, and position players are pretty much always better bets for big contracts than pitchers.
Given all the money coming off the books, I don’t think there’s any reason they can’t afford both, monetarily.
“So would you guys rather Sabathia or Teixiera?”
After watching our offense the past few days? Teixiera.
Wang, Pettitte, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy. Not a terrible rotation for next year. Also look at how Ohlendorf, McCutchen, pan out.
“Wang, Pettitte, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy. Not a terrible rotation for next year. Also look at how Ohlendorf, McCutchen, pan out.”
Just to follow up on what I said… this upcoming trading deadline and offseason availability of Tex + CC is more evidence as to why the Yanks need to start experimenting and seeing what they have in the minors. From one angle, maybe it was good Hughes and Kennedy stepped down momentarily.
“Just wouldn’t be ideal for the Yankees – unless they can give up Kennedy. But it would put them in the same spot… they need a lefty pitcher or two. We have Wang, Moose, Chaimberlan, Kennedy, Hughes… all RHP. Yankee Stadium, with the short right porch, is a lefties dream. All we have is Pettitte.”
no offense but if Tampa Bay told me Ian Kennedy and Ross Ohlendorf for Scott Kazmir, You think I’d think about it another second ?
CC or Tex is a tough one – short porch, switch hitter with power that plays our weakest position.
But I don’t think there’s a way you can take a bat over an arm…. CC wins in my book
Question for the group – How many would like to see CC go to Boston? Because when he hits the FA market, you know the Red Sox would salivating just as much as us.
Let’s see…A rotation of Beckett, CC, Dice-K, Bucholz, and Lester….
I would actually think about trading that package (Kennedy,McAllister,Tabata) for a young/prospect position player if I can get away with it. Maybe a teams first base prospect or outfielder that they need pitching or the prospect is being blocked at he major league level.
there’s a better chance that the yanks sign tex and ben sheets in the off-season, than trade for cc this year…
…they cant sign both tex and cc…cc is going to make too much money, but because of his past freak injury problems, the 30-31 year old sheets sounds like a possibility to get a 3 or 4 year deal at 15 per.
derek lowe also remains a possibility.
RussNY –
I am not positive that Andy P is going to want to pitch next year. He had a ton of personal issues which pushed him back and forth coming into this year, but he is closer than most pitchers to his elbow saying bye-bye.
As far as trading for CC – a lot would depend on the deal we would be looking at signing him to after the trade.
If he is looking for “Santana money” I wouldn’t bite.
Is the MLB like the NBA where you can sign and trade or do you have to wait till the coming off-season to do a deal?
“Kazmir would command WAY more than that. Also, you’re concerned about injury with CC, but not with Kazmir? Last year was his first with over 200 innings…and he just made his 2008 season debut a couple days ago. Younger does not always mean more durable.”
that’s why I’d investigate this option first Whozat, he should be a cheaper option just on that fact alone and Tampa would ask for BP instead of SP that would be my guess. Plus he’s a Boras client and soon will have to reup and TB won’t reup him w/ Price & Jeff Niemann waiting in the wings. The only thing is we risk buying low on a injury prone young SP and making our competitor stronger.
Pitching wins games. Period.
When in doubt, pitching wins games.
If you have to choose between a healthy pitcher in his prime or a first baseman in his prime, you choose the pitcher every time, IMO.
Obviously, the devil is in the details.
But, if you can get a guy like Sabathia, before he hits free agency, in a deal that works for both parties, you have to really consider it, IMO.
If the Top 4 guys in the 2009 Yankee rotation are Wang, Sabathia, Chamberlain and Hughes, you will find enough offense to score runs.
If you get him for the second half of this season (if possible, of course), and add Pettitte to the mix and you have a team capable of winning the World Series.
“True… but look where we ended up. I love Melky Cabrera. And we had all that money to sign A-Rod, who is a far better player.”
We already had A-rod. It was randy johnson’s contract that kept us from getting Beltran. And I love Melky too, he’d just be playing left instead of center. We never would have signed Damon if we had Beltran the year before.
SJ, you know I might actually just have to say yes to that.
Like you point out, the system is deep enough to sustain the loss of such high level prospects, and you guarantee yourself the pitcher you want in the offseason.
I wonder, though, if they wouldnt pull the trigger on prospects AND cash for Johan in the offseason, why would they do it now a couple months later for CC?
“If he is looking for “Santana money†I wouldn’t bite.”
Exactly. I would probably do the trade if it looked like he would go elsewhere and skip free-agency if we didn’t take him. But only if he wanted a reasonable contract. No pitcher is worth the Santana or even Zito contract, as Zito seems to be proving over and over again in San Fran. Too risky to give a pitcher that many years, period.
If I’m going to sign a questionable pitcher it will be Rich Harden instead of Sabathia. Harden is younger, will cost less and less years. No he’s not left handed but compared to Sabathia it’s less of a risk.
Sheets = Pavano II, DLathon
Derek Lowe had some off-field issues rumored when he was in Beantown but I don’t know if he has straightened out since. His consistency would be a plus and he knows the Bos-NY rivalry first hand. They seemed pretty happy to see him go from the Sux.
There is plenty o’ cash to sign CC and Tex. The question is whether they more than they are worth or if Tex would rather be part of a Baltimore renaissance. They actually did add a ton of young talent by unloading Tejada and the pitcher to Seattle.
“Question for the group – How many would like to see CC go to Boston? Because when he hits the FA market, you know the Red Sox would salivating just as much as us.
Let’s see…A rotation of Beckett, CC, Dice-K, Bucholz, and Lester….”
Frank Wren is definitely going to persue CC, since not extending Texeira would free up alot of money, Smoltz getting older, Glavine nearly done, Sabathia could be enticed w/ taking on the NL and for some reason I think Pittsburgh w/ thier new GM would actually persue him and then there is always the Phillies, both NY teams, the Cubs…CC is hitting the market hard this offseason.
“I wonder, though, if they wouldnt pull the trigger on prospects AND cash for Johan in the offseason, why would they do it now a couple months later for CC?”
Because this would be closer to him hitting FA. After they had their run at 2008 and decided it wasn’t going to happen, and as SJ prefaced this whole thing, when they felt they’d lose him in the off-season.
If you don’t think you need him now, and don’t think you can keep him, you trade to get something back before he’s goooooone.
Tampa Bay will never trade with the Yankees.
If they deal Kazmir, its not going to be to an AL East team, especially the Yankees.
No way do they want to help the Yankees (they hate the fact their Yankee home games are filled with about 70% Yankee fans) and have to face Kazmir 4-5 times a year.
Its why you won’t see an inter-divisional trade between the Yankees and Rays.
Ben Sheets is a yearly DL guy. After all the problems the Yankees have had with injured pitchers, I can’t see them making a move for a guy who has a shot at being Pavano II from an injury perspective.
Chris, I’m talking from the Yankees perspective, not the Indians.
If you read the tea leaves and take the Yankees on their word, you are lead to believe that it was the combination of cash AND prospects that caused them to turn away any real negotiations for Johan.
so if they wouldnt trade prospects and pay the long term contract for Johan, why pull the trigger now for CC?
“I woke up today and told my wife, ‘I just have a feeling I’m going to make these guys look stupid.’ â€
Too bad he didn’t wake up like that in the month of April.
Oh… Sorry, Turn Two, mis-read..
In that case, I agree. That’s the same point I was making as far as whether or not I would want to do that trade… If he wants Santana money or length, no deal.
Boston’s problem signing a big-time FA pitcher is that it is going to cost them 150% of whatever it would cost anyone else.
why?
Because there is no way that Josh Beckett is going to sit still with his below bargain basement deal with an identical twin following him in the rotation. Plus the Sawx are right at the luxury tax threshhold (right?)
This off-season will be a return to the flexibility and financial muscle advantage of the yankees not seen since we sunk gazillions into Giambi and Pavano.
“no offense but if Tampa Bay told me Ian Kennedy and Ross Ohlendorf for Scott Kazmir, You think I’d think about it another second ?”
Brandon, you’re nuts if you think Kennedy and Ohlendorff is enough for Scott Kazmir.
TurnTwo,
Why would the Yankees consider it? Well, two reasons:
1. They saw how hard it is to break in young pitching in NY.
2. See above! lol
Seriously, for the first time in ages, the farm system can actually absorb the loss of three very good prospects.
They would keep Hughes and Cabrera, get Sabathia, and still have a deep farm system. In a lot of ways, its the ultimate win win scenario.
If you look at the potential of it, you have Wang, Sabathia, Chamberlain and Hughes in your 2009 rotation. Let’s remember, due to Hughes’ current injury, he won’t be able to pitch 200 innings next year. They will need another innings eater and CC can certainly eat innings.
Who knows, perhaps getting Sabathia brings Pettitte back for one more season.
My issue with the present pitching staff is the following. With the exception of Wang, every guy is slotted one notch above their current skill sets.
At this point in their careers, Pettitte is a #3, Moose a #4 and Hughes (when healthy) a #5. Pushing them up a notch is risky.
You need a big offense to get away with it and truth be told, this is no longer a big offense. Even when healthy, the offense is not as good as a year ago. That’s why I would rather have more pitching and less offense. Pitching wins championships.
If they were to get Sabathia and convince Pettitte to give it a go for one more year, everybody is then slotted in their proper positions. JMO but, it makes the pitching staff much better balanced.
“so if they wouldnt trade prospects and pay the long term contract for Johan, why pull the trigger now for CC?”
Drastically lesser prospects.
If they’d been able to get Santana for Jackson/Tabata, Kennedy, Horne and MacAllister/Betances, I figure they’d have done it. This wouldn’t cost that much as CC isn’t Santana and it’s only a few months of time.
“they cant sign both tex and cc…cc is going to make too much money,”
Why can’t they? It’s not my money. The Yankees can afford it if they want both of them.
ofcourse I’m nuts if I think that, I don’t believe it, I said if they came to me for that and I get Kazmir in return, Kennedy and the BP guy would be teleported to Tampa.
“If I’m going to sign a questionable pitcher it will be Rich Harden instead of Sabathia. Harden is younger, will cost less and less years. No he’s not left handed but compared to Sabathia it’s less of a risk.”
A pitcher who’s always hurt is less of a risk than a perennial 200 inning thrower?
I don’t care if Kennedy is cocky or not at AAA. I care whether he still can be cocky at majors.
If he can’t throw strikes, cocky or not, there is no place for him in the majors.
Raymagnetic I think the Yankees want to stay away from handing out big contracts on a yearly bases. So I don’t think they get both Texiera and Sabathia. Not because they can’t afford to but more like they don’t want to.
Okay so what would of happened if ian did bad in AAA? Then everybody would of got on his case for that too.
He did great,and it seems he is getting his confidence back. I didnt take his comments seriously because hes a kid with not much media experience. Besides, I like his honesty. Of course he has to prove in the big leagues that hes capable of getting it done. But, give the kid a break now,it sounds like this gave him a little bit of a confidence boost. The young guns arent the only problems you know its the offense too. They need to step it up and help their pitchers.
Where is Jeter on all of this?
“A pitcher who’s always hurt is less of a risk than a perennial 200 inning thrower?”
In terms of length of contract and money YES.
One other reason why they would consider doing an in season deal if its available. Hank Steinbrenner.
If Hank has the chance to get Sabathia for the deal I’m proposing, there is no way he isn’t going to do it.
He’s not going to watch two high end left handed starters go by the boards in one season.
Santana? There were and still are, good reasons why they didn’t do that deal.
Sabathia for Kennedy, Tabata and McAllister? No way Hank gets voted off the island for that one, IMO.
Nor should he.
If the Yankees are in the position to do it for those players, or something similar, they have to pull the trigger.
Is it a risk? EVERY deal is a risk.
But, its a risk they have to take if its presented to them.
They can absorb the loss of the prospects and there are no pitchers coming into the market as good as CC.
David Wells had worse eating/living habits than CC and he was able to pitch for 20 years.
Phil Hughes came into camp in the best shape of his life and is out for two months with another injury.
Its not a body building contest. Its pitching.
If you can pitch, I don’t care if you look like Andre The Giant. Just be able to get outs.
Here’s a discussion question to kick around for today:
Would you trade Johnny Damon, Robbie Cano, Wilson Betemit, Jason Giambi, and a prospect TBD for Manny Ramirez, Mark Texeira, Vlad Guerrero, CC Sabathia, Barry Zito, and K-Rod?
Gee, what other Yankee s— can we pile into this deal?
thank you jax.
“Beckett, CC, Dice-K, Bucholz, and Lester”
Isn’t Beckett hitting FA soon also? He will command some big $$$
Thurman, a good question, but we’re all about keeping it real on this board.
Yankees would have to throw in a Rasner or Karstens type for this to be fair.
Tell me Francesa is joking. Now Joba according to him needs to grow up to how he reacts after a lost? He needs to be more like Rivera after a lost.
What a complete joke.
“In terms of length of contract and money YES.”
Jax,
You and I will just have to agree to disagree. Rich Harden has never thrown 200 innings in his life. He only had one healthy season. That is a humongous risk and I can’t see the Yankees wanting to take that on.
anyone listening to the calmest Mets fan caller debate w/ Fatcessa and Fruitloops…. wait listen… wait just listen…
“This off-season will be a return to the flexibility and financial muscle advantage of the yankees not seen since we sunk gazillions into Giambi and Pavano.”
So true – sooooo much money coming off the books, and since we’re lucky to be Yankees fans, it’s going to go back into the team, and not the owners pockets.
Giambi – 24.3
Pavano – 11 ?? I think it is but i’m not positive
Moose – 11
Pettitte – 17
Farnsworth – 5
Abreu – 16
I can only see the Yankees resigning the last 3… Farnsworth would be less then 5, Pettitte and Abreu would command around the same as the 16/17 they’re getting this year. Assuming the Yankees resign those 3 for the same prices (38 million) we still have 46.3 million coming off the payroll to spend as the team pleases. And if they want to let the last 3 go and go with younger replacements from the minors/free agency they’ll have 84.3 million dollars to do it.
Ask and you shall receieve…
I asked the status on the Yankees’ prospects yesterday and found this on from Chad Jennings’ SWB Yankees blog -
Are Mike and the Mad Dog taking Met fans calls from Bellevue Hospital today or something? Holy crazy thoughts Batman.
Good morning guys.
Skimmed through the comments and can’t believe how many “Nay”s there are.
As recently as 2 days ago, many believed Kennedy didn’t belong in the bigs and Tabata was too immature to be in baseball at all. Amazing what a few good games can do for their stock.
Not saying no’s the wrong answer, it’s just that you have the opportunity to get the second best lefty in baseball for some questionable pieces.
That being said, I’d say no. Go all in. If Kennedy doesn’t work out someone else will. And the players union seems determined to make CC go on the open market. The lure of pinstriped dollars might be too much to resist.
NY SPORTSWRITER KNOW S NOTHING ABOUT PITCHING OR CMW
http://tinyurl.com/6ent8x
the players union stuff is crazy – they’re investigating why no one has signed Barry Bonds… you don’t need to do a whole lot of investigating on that one.
mel, i just finished lunch. chinese due to tonight’s matchup.
S.A. did you hear the Met fan that was rational and calm when he was ripping Castillo, telling Mike , no but listen, wait but listen, wait wait wait wait but listen like 30 times, it drove Fatcessa crazy
The two kid starters hit big fat (but not unforeseeable) snags in ’08 and, assuming a deal for CC that includes IPK, inning caps will still be in place for 2009 on Hughes and Joba. CC is starting to look less like a luxury and more like an innings eating necessity.
What if they don’t trade for/sign CC? Assume that Pettitte decides to stay home, and they let Moose go. Then the Yankee ’09 rotation is Wang, IPK, Hughes, Joba and some newer kid. That rotation will make a trip to the playoffs in 2009 (and the short term beyond that) a virtual impossibility. The prospect of no playoffs to open the new stadium brings us back to Hank. If CC becomes available this year, IMO, Hanko will push the button and, if necessary, overpay on the new contract for CC gladly. That deal probably takes him to the playoffs this year and next, and after that the youth movement will be much more likely to kick in productively.
I gotta agree with those saying Hank would pull the trigger (SJ, and Murphy that I can remember). He let Johan go only to watch Hughes and IPK fail (for now…. long term that was still a good no-trade). Hank seems like the type of person that wants to make a deal to say “i got him” .. just like (before my time) George when he wanted Reggie.
I lean towards “yes” with SJ’s question just due to the fact that, like Cashman said all along, we go into this knowing some prospects are going to be a part of the puzzle via playing for this team, and some are going to be via being trading chips. We could do this more easily than any of the Santana scenarios.
That being said, good for Ian last night. I want to see him back up here with that same fire, trying to make MLB hitters look stupid instead of being scared to throw over the plate.
3 for 3 with 3 home runs! are you kidding me
3 for 3 with 3 home runs! are you kidding me
Brandon-I heard that. LOL
Today was funny
I thought the home run derby was at Yankee Stadium this year…. Mr. Votto and the rest of the Reds proving me wrong….
Also, any wagers on how Sabathia would do this season overall? Will it be more like his first starts (horrible)? Or his two great starts? Or somewhere in between like his last start (ho-hum, 6.3 IP/4 ER/10 hits against Royals)
“Because there is no way that Josh Beckett is going to sit still with his below bargain basement deal with an identical twin following him in the rotation.”
Why do people think Beckett has a choice? He can moan and groan and they may throw him a new contract to keep him happy, but they certainly don’t have to. He signed a contract, wasn’t just a handshake.
Murph,
That’s the way I see it. Somebody has to eat the innings and you need top end starters to survive in the AL.
I don’t think there is any way Hank lets the guy go if he can get him.
If he is a FA and CC doesn’t want to play in NY, that’s a different deal. Nothing you can do about that.
However, if he is available, even if it hurts (in terms of the prospects you give up) I think the Yankees make the move.
Quite frankly, the only prospect they can honestly say is off limits right now is Montero.
Aside from that, to acquire upper level talent, everybody is fair game.
Sorry if this was posted already but Mark Teixiera’s sister lives in Hoboken and he says he loves big cities.. Fit him for PINSTRIPES pleadse!
http://tinyurl.com/6g8cfn
The Yankees have $80 million or so coming off the books this season. On top of that, Matsui & Damon will be entering their final seasons. The Yanks can easily sign Tex & CC. If I had to choose, it’s CC. SJ is absolutely right, pitching wins when it matters. My only question with CC is whether or not he has the stones to do it when it does.
I don’t have any problems with Ian’s attitude.
Frankly, he needs more of that if he is going to make it.
If he started the season with that attitude, he would still be in NY. Who knows, perhaps the jolt to Scranton is exactly what he needed to get back on track.
I’d rather have a cocky pitcher that needs to be toned down a bit than a guy lacking in confidence.
“Giambi – 24.3″
Giambi is being paid $21M this year. Next year they have to pay him $5 million NOT to play for them, the net there is $16M.
Doubt they bring back Farnsworth as they seem to have several younger arms (Ohlendorf, Albie, etc) who can carry out his duties. I do recall Pettitte saying he’d like to pitch in the new stadium. I think they bring Abreu back too.
Who is 3 for 3?
saucY,
Let’s hope Taiwan wins tonight!
This Lee thing is freaking me out.
Check it out:
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....statType=2
Jennifer,
Joey Votto of the Reds. 9-0 over the Cubs.
Okay thanks.
“Aside from that, to acquire upper level talent, everybody is fair game.”
With that way of thinking shouldn’t they have gone after Santana?
A pitcher who is younger and more of a sure thing than Sabathia.
sorry – meant to follow-up on the “who”
mel, i expect that BB column to at least double tonight. that ER one will get bumped up a few notches as well….
Since when does his sis living in Hoboken impact anything Texeira decides ? His sis lives in NJ ok so if lets say IDK Philly or IDK the SF Giants offer him big time $$$ does he say no just because sister Tex lives in NJ ? this is his baseball career not his sister’s, take that w/ a grain of salt.
If he settles for a reasonable price sure why not, if not there will always be another Marx Texeira somewhere
For the record, packing a one bedroom apartment all by yourself, kind of sucks. I’ve made very little progress.
Global,
No because the Santana deal involved more talent to give up than an in-season Sabathia deal would right now.
They have no replacement for Melky Cabrera right now. That kid is getting better and better and nobody in the organization is ready to take over in CF. Johnny Damon is certainly not an everyday CF anymore and neither Gardner or Jackson are as good as Cabrera.
Its still too early to give up on Hughes. Any pitching they were to give up in an in season deal won’t involve anybody with Hughes’ upside.
The deal parameters are very different. Plus, I don’t see Sabathia getting Santana money in the marketplace right now.
Especially, if he struggles a bit. That may make teams hesitate on the years in the deal.
saucY,
Hope you’re right. He hasn’t faced any powerhouse offenses yet. Although we haven’t been such a powerhouse ourself. I’m just puzzled how he went from a 6+ ERA to a sub 1.00 ERA. At one point it was a ridiculous .28 before Seattle “touched” him up for 3 runs.
If we believe that a guy is what the back of his baseball card says he is, tonight would be a good night for Lee to start living up to that.
SJ,
I don’t say no to the concept of trading prospects for an established top starter, but I think I say no to the starter.
I don’t believe in CC Sabathia at all. I know he’s a great pitcher, but I think whoever gives this guy 7 years is going to regret it a lot.
It’s not just his body type (although that is a huge problem I have with him), it’s the workload and the fact that we’ve seen a few glimpses of how he struggles mentally at times with the game.
To give him 7 years and all that money, you want as close to a sure thing as possible and CC, for me, just doesn’t feel like a sure thing.
He didn’t pitch well in the playoffs last year. Then this year with all the contract talk he struggled to start the season.
While he is way better than what we have and I’m not afraid of dealing any prospects for established starters, I have my reservations.
Still, there are no top starters on the market and it’s not like they grow on trees.
If Cashman made this deal, I wouldn’t give him a hard time over it.
I’m just afraid that CC will never live up to his contract.
I had zero fear/reservations when it came to giving Johan that kind of commitment, but CC I feel differently about.
I just wish it were Hallyday we were talking about getting instead of CC. I’d give up the farm and then some for Roy.
Seeing the passion and anger he showed at losing that complete game he pitched against the Red Sox in the bottom of the 9th on a single showed me how intense and how badly this guy wants to win.
I don’t see the same kind of intensity from CC.
“With that way of thinking shouldn’t they have gone after Santana?
A pitcher who is younger and more of a sure thing than Sabathia.”
Santana isn’t younger than Sabathia, nor is he any more of a sure thing. Santana’s WHIP has been trending upwards while Sabathia’s has been trending downwards.
“neither Gardner or Jackson are as good as Cabrera.”
right now….
Castillo back in the 2 hole oh god Mets fans are going to kill Willie tonight
And maybe not ever Brandon.
That’s the thing with prospects. you never know.
Yes, Austin is a very talented kid.
However, Melky Cabrera is one of the 5 or 6 best CF’s in the AL league right now.
Conservatively, Austin is 3 years away from being in that conversation if he projects out. Three years from now, Melky could be even better.
When you are talking about making a trade now, all you can do is go by the information that’s in front of you.
The Yankees were correct in passing on Santana.
Sabathia if he is available? That one is less clear with the information we presently have in front of us.
“Santana’s WHIP has been trending upwards while Sabathia’s has been trending downwards.”
Hard to go anywhere but up when you’re posting WHIPs in the .95 range. He led in the AL in WHIP for 4 years running from 2004 thru last season despite his upward trend.
it’s amazing how people are going for cc after wanting to pass on johan…
…you wonder if the yanks passed on a kennedy, horne, melky, tabata package for johan…
…in now desperation and being unsure, would they now do that deal for cc?
…and no matter what is said, the choice is johan than cc.
WOW Pagan. He’s ok
What do you all think the Yanks will do with Wang again this offseason? Arbitration?
Based on his year so far, they should’ve locked him up last offseason.
Probably a moot point anyway. Indians arguably the best team in the Central. So they would likely be in the race the whole year.
Don’t see Sabathia being traded anyway.
what the hell was Pagan thinking…eh gutsy play Angel
I think Tabata or Jackson could be trade bait based on what we’re seeing from Melky so far. I don’t think all 3 of them will be in the same field together 2 years from now.
Cliff Lee’s numbers are pretty sick so far. He’s pitched 3 games on the road and his road era is 0.00. He’s allowed 9 hits in 23.2 innings, walked 2 and struck out 21. His worst start was his last when he gave up 3 runs. He’s only given up 4 runs in his first 5 games of this season.
“What do you all think the Yanks will do with Wang again this offseason? Arbitration?
Based on his year so far, they should’ve locked him up last offseason.”
Still think his effort in the postseason is what stood between him and a deal similar to Cano’s. I think something long term gets done this offseason……if not sooner.
I hope Wang is on his game tonight.
Ooh.. look at this from the notebook:
“Football Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo and offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride were on the field for batting practice, and chatted with Girardi.”
I wonder if they are fans or if they were invited?
Holy…
I bet it’s wonderful to be Joey Votto today…
“…you wonder if the yanks passed on a kennedy, horne, melky, tabata package for johan…”
I don’t think that was the package they passed on. I think someone (Olney?) said the final package had both WANG and IPK and that’s what we passed on.
Cashman is good friends w/ Ernie Accorsi I’m not surprised Spagnuolo and Gilbride showed up, it’s about handling the NY press and getting into a player’s makeup w/ those two. Girardi could have called them as a guest speaker about things starting off slow.
“I think Tabata or Jackson could be trade bait based on what we’re seeing from Melky so far. I don’t think all 3 of them will be in the same field together 2 years from now.”
Doubt Tababta will be MLB ready two years from now. He’s not AA ready today.
If I’m another organization, I’m asking for Jackson over Tabata everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. He hasn’t shown any power yet but he knows the strike zone and has solid plate discipline. With that, the rest will take care of itself. He’ll grow, get stronger and develop a little power. He’s going to be a solid MLB outfielder and maybe more. Not anywhere near sold on that being the case for Tabata.
“I don’t think that was the package they passed on. I think someone (Olney?) said the final package had both WANG and IPK and that’s what we passed on.”
Yanks never offered that. Twins apparently indicated a willingness to take Kennedy rather than Hughes IF Wang was included in the deal. In Olney’s words, the Yanks took about .2 seconds to say no.
One quick thought about the comments about IPK being cocky after shutting down AAA hitters…. His comment was that he said that to his wife the morning before he pitched, not the night after. Not saying he wasn’t being cocky, just saying he felt that confidence before the game, not just after. To me, that’s a sign he was either angry enough at being demoted or just feeling good about his abilities enough to know that he could shut down AAA hitters. Either way, after being kicked around in the Majors, he could have easily gone down there and questioned his ability to even get those hitters out.
He didn’t. 1 game in AAA doesn’t prove he’s got his swagger back, but it was a very good start.
Fredo, that’s my point, we said no to the package including Wang…. Wasn’t saying we offered it, rather that IPK as the headliner wasn’t something we said no to.
“Cliff Lee’s numbers are pretty sick so far. He’s pitched 3 games on the road and his road era is 0.00. He’s allowed 9 hits in 23.2 innings, walked 2 and struck out 21. His worst start was his last when he gave up 3 runs. He’s only given up 4 runs in his first 5 games of this season.”
Sounds like he’s due for a nice loss to the Wanger!
SJ -
I say make that deal and agree with your thinking. It seems as though the Yankees are reluctant to sign a pitcher to a long term deal though after being burned by the likes of Pavano. Is it that they are waiting for the right guy? If so, at least CC has proven he can get American League hitters out.
In case anyone missed here here is the link for the draft order for this year’s draft incoluding compensation picks from Free agent signing. They will show it on ESPN2
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/d.....050608.pdf
“Tell me Francesa is joking. Now Joba according to him needs to grow up to how he reacts after a lost? He needs to be more like Rivera after a lost.
What a complete joke.”
Did he actually say that? I thought Joba acted EXACTLY like Mo after the loss. He took the heat, made no excuses, and said it’s over and done with, not going to be on his mind next time out.
Anyone ever see fatcesa out in a bar, give ‘em one the the jaw for me, would ya?
Seriously, I am no super expert on sports analysis, but does anyone think half of us on here wouldn’t in fact be better at francesa at his own job? I like to think I at least PAY ATTENTION to things I talk about before I comment on them………..
Just speaking strictly to the comments relayed from that ridiculous pair on WFAN, the difference between Joba and Mo blowing a win is that Joba does it in the 8th, and gets the privilege of having the cameras plastered on his face for an entire inning, while Mo usually walks off the mound and into the dugout. He is usually showered and dressed and quite composed before the press sees him. And to Joba’s credit, he was also quite composed by the time the press got to speak with him.
And, what did Joba do in the dugout? He sat, looking dejected, with a towel on his head. Now, I don’t know about the towel (:lol:), but dejected is an appropriate emotion for what happened last night!
“it’s amazing how people are going for cc after wanting to pass on johan…
…you wonder if the yanks passed on a kennedy, horne, melky, tabata package for johan…
…in now desperation and being unsure, would they now do that deal for cc?
…and no matter what is said, the choice is johan than cc.”
If you’d bother to read anyone else’s comments, you’d see that it’s not that simple. At all. You’re setting up a strawman.
“He sat, looking dejected, with a towel on his head.”
And if he hadn’t looked dejected, they’d have made it out like he didn’t care and talked about that. If he hadn’t stayed in the dugout, they’d have talked about how he can’t even man up and face his team after blowing the game.
There is no right answer, no right thing to do.
The CC deal as proposed by SJ is distinguishable from the Johan deal:
1) The difference in prospect cost to acquire CC, also a CY Young lefty may be less than was sought by Minny for Johan.
2) the emergence of actual need this season and next due to the ’08 performance of Hughes and IPK. During the off season, the Yanks passed up Johan in part betting on an apparently overly optimistic view of Hughes’ and IPK’s ’08 potential.
This far into the season Cash is pretty sure his other kids can fill in for whoever is traded. (Obviously, the kids have more of a track record than they did last year). This, coupled with the ’08 failure of the two young guns to take off, gives Cash the leeway to recommend using some prospects to acquire a “win now” pitcher. Using some prospects this way is entirely consistent with the commitment to youth and farming – it’s not a switch from youth back to a “win now” program.
There’s another fact that makes the Sabathia trade distinguishable from the Santana trade.
C C Sabathia, only 2 years younger than Johan Santana, is not even close to being the same talent. Santana is better by any statistical measurement you want to use. It only stands to reason that a Sabathia should be worth far less.
I hate to give the Red Sox props, but in the Josh Beckeett trade Theo Epstein showed that he understands that you sometimes have to give young talent to get a pitcher that will put your team over the top. Brian Cashman has yet to demonstrate that he knows how to make a deal like the Beckett deal.
Declaring an Ian Kennedy as “untouchable” was a big mistake. For the right deal, everyone should be on the table. The key is to use your assets wisely. Part of making an intelligent decision is understanding that if you wait 3 years for all this young pitching to develop, you’ll then shortly be needing replacements for your 36 year old shortstop, 35 year old 3rd baseman and your 39 year old catcher.
They should have used their assets to acquire the best lefthander in baseball last fall. If they attempt to trade for a 260 pound, inconsistent pitcher like Sabathia they should offer the minimum amount of talent or wait till he hits the market.
I’m glad to see Kennedy is showing some fight and desire to get back to the top. Hopefully he keeps that fight once he gets back. This could be the wake up call he needed.
Before getting serious about a Sabathia deal, I would would want tp pick the brains of Nardi Contreras, Mark Newman, and “Stick” Michael to see just how high they are on Zach McAllister.
If they felt that another pitcher in the organization had a higher upside and the sting would be taken out with the loss of McAllister, I’d have to give it very serious consideration before Mark Shapiro turned into another Bill Smith.
color me unimpressed with this false machismo that Ian is spouting all of a sudden. It doesn’t sound like him – He sounds like a kid who is trying to sound tougher than he really is. I’m very impressed by his game last night and I like Ian, but I’d prefer that he let his pitching do the talking.
SJ44
wow, good stuff not that I agree with you on everything but You should get your own blog.
Too bad the only hitters he can make stupid are in AAA.
Only guy who looks stupid is the pitcher who can’t throw a strike and comes out in less than 3 innings at the Major League level.
done4now -
Isn’t the point to capitalize on the mistakes of your opponent? It was a GOOD thing that the Yankees did that against Seattle. In many previous games the Yankees did not capitalize on mistakes, so I took it as a positive that they were able to do so against the Mariners. I have to wonder what you would be saying had they not capitalized on the “million” errors.
As far as tonight goes, Lee is having a phenomenal season so far. It would be very, very wonderful for the Yankees to pull this out. But Cleveland has not struggled when Lee is on the mound for them, regardless of what they’ve done otherwise.
As for Detroit, they struggled early but had heated up just in time for the Yankees. And the Yankees are struggling even more than many other teams. They are missing ARod and Posada, not Mutt and Jeff. It matters. It matters a lot.
i can’t believe the yankees are going to start igawa.igawa will get bombed and kennedy will be back up for next fridays start because he is pitching in AAA on sunday.i wouldn’t do a sabathia trade,he has a 7.51 era,1.77 whip,50 hits in 38 innings and the league is batting 3.14 against him and it will cost the yankees a lot of money and prospects.the yankees are doing it with quantity and quality.a lot of these guys will make it and a lot won’t.they just need to be solid 1-3 and decent 4th and 5th starters.the problem is after wang they are not that great compared to most of baseball.if they can get a true ace or someone steps into that role,bump wang to the 2 spot or leave him at one,doesn’t matter as long as they get an ace.i would have started mcutchen or olendorf instead of igawa or refuse to play the game and rest the players or have hughes pitch with a broken rib and being blind,please not igawa.if anybody in the yankees organization is reading this,please not igawa,it is a lost investment.
the only players i wouldn’t trade are betances,brackman,montero,joba,hughes,melky,cano,arod,jeter,wang.