Today in The Journal News
-
- May
- 7
Joba Chamberlain’s joy ride ended last night as he let a victory get away in the eighth inning.
A-Rod hopes to be back in a week. This notebook also has news on Ian Kennedy, Kyle Farnsworth, Kei Igawa, Hideki Matsui and Wilson Betemit.
This entry was posted
on Wednesday, May 7th, 2008 at 3:08 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Yea go IPK!!!! I hope A-rod comes back asap.
Joba will learn from his mistakes. A pitcher should make his own decisions on the pitches but when your a rookie its probably best to listen to your veteran catcher. Joba has been good in previous games and the fans that were booing need to grow up and cut the kid some slack.
Excrement occurs. Let’s get over it. Nuff said!
I agree with GoBigBlue.
I had a terrible feeling watching Joba shake off Molina. That being said it was bound to happen at some point. Just hope Joba wasn’t starting to believe his own hype.
Tomorrows another game and Joba should look at this an a valuable learning opportunity.
Also really makes Sizemore’s catch against Damon all that more important.
Pete, There was one mistake in your Yankees notebook. Randy Johnson also has more than 400 career starts (he has 560). Otherwise, the articles today are great. Jerry.
Joba got into trouble with the walks. He has to trust his catcher. I hope he learned from that. I still look forward to seeing Joba pitch in the 8th.
Hope that Alex can be back in a week. That would be huge for the Yanks.
It looked to me that Joba with a 2 run lead was working on his secondary pitches. He threw more curve balls than I have ever seen him throw. He didn’t have good command last night walked those guys and Dellucci, credit to him, caught a high fastball on the fat part of the bat.
Maybe that’s why he was shaking Molina off. Molina wanted the usual two pitch (fastball, slider) Joba and the kid wanted to try some of his other pitches.
This is just my view watching from home but when before have we seen Joba throw more than 1 or 2 curves/changeups in an outing?
Sorry, 1 run lead.
Joba said he was out of whack. There’s no way to know that listening to the catcher would have helped or not; he didn’t, he failed. But clearly he was having trouble locating the ball last night, and the walks were the result of that. I guess he was bound to have an off night and given the fact that when he’s called into a game, it’s usually a relatively close score, if he doesn’t do the job it’s going to cost the lead if not the game.
The lead didn’t feel safe last night for some reason, just in my gut, but I’ll admit that when Farnsworth came in and did such a good job, I thought, okay, it’ll be okay. But the catch by Sizemore on Damon’s ball was the play that made me queasiest about the outcome of the game, as that play unfolded. It was an “uh-oh” moment.
I’m glad Kennedy had such an impressive start in Scranton. I hope he can string a couple of those together and be back in short order. I have a lot more faith in his abilities than I do in Kei Igawa’s. After reading Chad Jenning’s report on the lower level pitchers, it sure seems like there’s a lot of talent lining up for this Yankees team. Even realizing that some will make it and some won’t, and least they have a deep pool to fish from.
It’s always disheartening to learn that people booed one of the Yankees best players, but it is a tough, tough town. It’s a “what have you done for me lately” town. I wish people wouldn’t boo their own. But what other way to express dissatisfaction, if not with the player, then with the performance? I don’t boo, but I do express discontent when a player doesn’t get the job done. How do you boo the result without it seeming like you’re booing the player? I know there are some johnny-come-lately fans for whom nothing short of perfection will do, but what about the sincere fans who are merely frustrated? It was a tough loss last night because everyone’s come to expect assembly line pitching from Joba and Mo. And it’s their fault — they set us up for it!!!
Today’s another day - another beautiful day for a baseball game. Go Yankees!
“Maybe that’s why he was shaking Molina off. Molina wanted the usual two pitch (fastball, slider) Joba and the kid wanted to try some of his other pitches.”
Yeah maybe that’s what he was trying to do, but with 2 men in scoring position in a 1-run game it is so not the time to try things out. It ain’t spring training.
At the end it’s only human for Joba to blow some saves eventually. No big deal. I just feel bad for Andy who pitched hard and could use the win after his last two outings.
About the booing, I didn’t hear it. All I saw were people stunned in silence. So the booing was minimal. And for what’s it’s worth, it was the wave crowd. Oh yeah, it went around a bunch of times. I’m always suspicious of people who come to a Yankee game to do the waves.
Dee –
I’m with ya on the wave thing. HATE it. It’s fun at a minor league game, but even then it’s a debatable crowd activity. However, it has absolutely NO PLACE at Yankee Stadum!!!
Unfortunately, that was not the time to work on secondary pitches and that’s not what he was doing. You don’t do that in a one run game.
It was a learning experience for him. One fault he has is, he shakes off catchers way too much.
That places him in a predictable pitching pattern. When he shakes off his catcher, its almost always for the slider.
Any competent advance scout picks that up and turns that information over to his team in his report. When hitters notice it (especially veteran hitters), they will lay off the slider and take the pitch. If its a strike, that’s life. Sizemore did it in the first AB of the 8th inning.
With Joba’s stuff, hitters have to gear up for the fastball and eliminate his other pitches. Its the only way they will center his pitches.
Its why, contrary to the belief of some, rookie pitchers shouldn’t shake off veteran catchers. Veteran catchers know the tricks of the trade and the hitters and their job is to call the game.
Unfortunately, the lesson learned cost them the game but, that’s baseball. You learn from failure.
Long term, Joba will be fine. In the short term, he would be wise to let his catcher call the game and just worry about executing his pitches.
Okay. SJ44 -
When you explain the situation fully as you did above, by saying that by shaking off pitches he makes his pattern/pitch selection more predictable to the hitter, I understand the vehemence about not wanting him to shake off the catcher as much as he did. That makes sense to me. A blanket statement that a rookie pitcher should never shake off the catcher just didn’t ring true to me.
The Joba pitch to Dellucci is not the real problem. He’ll get over it by gametime tonight. The underlying issue is how vanilla this team is for run production.
Knowing that 2 big hitters are out of the lineup, this team needs to scratch and claw for every run possible and give away no at bats. Grit and determination can score runs but waiting for chances doesn’t cut it.
Depending on Joba and Mo to preserve one run leads goes just so far.
Good teams know when to put a team away with insurance runs but this team seems content with sitting on small leads and taking their chances with later innings.
During 2006-2007, this team found ways to win with players out with injury for periods of time. It’s time to find those ways again or this season will slip away before our eyes.
Doreen and SJ,
AMEN to both, that is all:-)
Well, onward and upward. Let’s go CHIEN-MING WANG! I believe!!!
Its hard to expect the offense to do much when half the lineup is basically out.
Cano and Giambi are hitting under .200. With both Arod and Posada out, they are playing with half a lineup every night.
That makes it tough to score runs. Meaning, you have to win close, low scoring games. Especially when you are leading late in games.
No excuses. That’s the way it is. They had to do it in ‘95 and ‘96, when they had trouble scoring runs, and they have to do it now.
That’s 5 games in the last two weeks (the rain game in Chicago, 1 in Cleveland, 2 against Detroit and last night), in which they lost leads later in games and ended up on the losing end of the score.
Too many games to lose in those situations.
Yes, the offense is compromised right now. But, that means the pitching has to pick it up. That’s what good teams do.
When the Red Sox were not hitting earlier in the year, they found a way to win close, low scoring games. That’s what the Yankees have to do right now.
Its why the mistakes we saw last night can’t happen again. Rookie or no rookie, you can’t repeat mistakes when your team is scrambling to win games.
Doreen, re: gamecalling issues, that’s the catchers domain. Pitchers, at least very few of them, call their own games.
Joba Chamberlain is a very talented rookie pitcher. He’s not Greg Maddox. Greg Maddox calls his own games. Joba Chamberlain does not.
I doubt he will make that mistake again.
Its why I was hoping Girardi would go to Mo to pitch to Dellucci. That AB had trouble written all over it and I would have preferred Mo’s cutter (bearing into a lefty) in that situation than a struggling Joba vs. a veteran hitter.
I don’t know if Girardi was either looking for Joba to work his way out of trouble or was hesitant to give Mo another 4 out save opportunity this early in the season.
I would have gone to Mo in that situation. I liked the matchup better. As you watched the inning unfold, you just knew it was going to be difficult to get out of it without damage being done.
The Yankees are just so inconsistent as a team right now. They’re still trying to get into a groove and fire on all cylinders…
Right now it seems like every other night, one of those cylinders flames out, be it hitting, defense, pitching…
I have faith though, that it’ll all come together soon.
I feel like we’ve hit the low point, and are on our way to moving back up.
Good Morning -
The SWB beat reporter did a whip around the minor league pitchers with Nardi which is worth a quick read. Humberto, Melancon, Karstens, et al.
http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.com/Blogs/SWBYankees/tabid/552/Default.aspx
Sounds like some promotions might be coming . . .
DMan,
The inconsistency is not surprising. You can make an argument the three most consistent players on the team are Jeter, Posada and Arod.
By consistent, I not only mean their level of play but the fact they are in the lineup every day. They are staples.
The Yankees are missing two of their staples. When one is your catcher and the other is your best player, that’s very, very tough to deal with over a stretch of games.
It leads to the issues they are facing. They are also breaking in young pitchers. That’s also a tough learning curve.
As good as Joba has been, we forget he’s still a kid. He’s still learning.
When Cashman created the plan to have 3 rookie pitchers (Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy) all play prominent roles this year, he envisioned an offense scoring enough runs to offset the learning experiences they would face. He, nor anybody else connected to the Yankees, didn’t doubt they would struggle at times. They felt though, they had an offense that could offset some of the early struggles. Unfortunately, that’s not the case this year.
The injuries hit, the offense hasn’t been there, and these kids are being forced to pitch like veterans.
That’s too much to ask of young pitchers.
Its kind of like the perfect storm of bad news hitting the team all at once.
Its why, somehow, someway, they have to hang close in the next month. Stay within 4-5 games of first, be in a good position for the WC, and get everyone healthy.
That’s got to be the short term goal right now.
He also made a point to say that Lane played 1B for Scranton last night. But what interested me more was that with Lane at 1B, they actually put Gardner in LF and Christian in CF. Are they getting Gardner time in the corner for an eventual callup knowing he will have to play all over the OF. We are still carrying an upsurd amount of relievers.
Last night no one said that there was any problem getting on the same page. Now maybe there was and the Yankees didn’t want to air it on in the press. If Joe or Jose sees a problem with it, i’m sure they will sit Joba down and tell him just throw what the catcher tells you to.
Nobody is going to say there was a problem with the signs publicly.
Last week, we watched Hughes and Stewart have all kinds of problems out there and nobody said there was a problem. They never talk about that publicly.
Its NY. You say that and you have talk radio talking points all day.
You can see as plain as day Joba shaking off Molina a bunch of times last night. Everytime he did it, it was to throw a slider. He put himself into a predictable pitching pattern. Eiland also came to the mound that inning.
Its just one of those things that happen during the course of a game.
There is a lot of nuanced strategy that goes on in a game. Cone does a good job talking about it last night.
Things people not well versed in the strategy of the game fail to pick up. Such as shaking off the catcher to throw the slider. Its little things like that which give a team an edge in a game.
Those are things young players pick up with more experience.
Its part of one’s growth as a major league player.
if he starts giambi and sits matsui tonight, im gonna lose alot of faith in our new manager.
“Joba got into trouble with the walks. He has to trust his catcher.”
————————————-
So were the walks because he (shook of the catcher and) threw the wrong pitch, or because he missed his location and did not throw strikes?
Joba will learn from last night.
Gotta get a win today. I hate this losing crud
Yankees are going to be “pouring it on” for the whole month of May,,soft schedule, A-Rod coming back soon…Mark My words…when all the games are done on May 15th ( a GREAT DAY, actually my Dad’s 70th Birthday ! )…The Yankees will be tied with the BoSux both having 24-19 records….GO YANKEES….Tonight we CRUSH the BASTAGES !!!
Go Joba!
THat’s all I have to say. If anyone boo’d him at the stadium, shame on them. He is not a robot, he is human and will make mistakes. He was clearly struggling with command last night as others stated and he said. He also needs to trust his catcher. I think he pitched better with Posada - but what do I know. Molina is an upstanding catcher too and should be trusted by his pitcher.
With that said- I am going to the game tonight and look forward to —->>> Wang-(Farnsworth?)-Joba-Mo
The kid is going to recover - he is fine. He is still learning and still a rookie. He is some phenom and still a great yankee pitcher!
Go Yanks!
SJ,
Good points all around.
I really do think the Yankees will be fine.
The bullpen is taking shape now. The starting pitching will settle down, and the hitting should come back with Alex and Jorge.
Even if you add in Joba’s game last night. The bullpen has given up what, just those 3 runs in the last 13 innings? Thats pretty solid, and a good sign.
I’m pretty excited I get to see Wang pitch tonight, we’re leaving for NYC in about 1 hour (driving up from Delaware).
Here’s hoping on the way home Wang is 7-0 !
The Yankees are a .500 team at the moment. I’m actually pleasantly surprised they’ve even managed to play .500 ball so far this season.
When you think about everything that has gone wrong for them it’s a small miracle that they’ve even played .500 ball.
SJ,
That’s so true — Joba does shake off the catcher to throw his slider. I’ve often thought he’s extremely fond of his slider. And why not? It was that amazing slider that give him those huge swings and misses last year when he was striking everybody out when he first came up. That must be a real high.
I’m glad the team kept most of the talk re catcher/pitcher communication in-house. But I think it was pretty clear to those watching that Joba was calling his own game.
A few thoughts about last night -
1. Predictable pitching patterns is right. If I can pick up the fact that whenever Joba shakes off the catcher it’s to throw a slider, then pros sure can.
2. I remember a game two seasons ago, Yanks-Red Sox. Beckett was pitching to ARod with men on base in about the 5th. Beckett came in with a fastball and Alex hit it about 3 miles; Yanks won. After the game, Beckett, according to the writers, kept saying over and over, “I threw a stupid pitch to a smart hitter.” Last season and so far this one, he’s been a much better, and consistent, pitcher. I think that’s because he’s making better use of all his pitches, something he implied he didn’t do in that at-bat with Alex; i.e., he was too predictable. If that’s something that Beckett had to learn after several years of accompishments in the bigs, then if Joba learns it now he’ll be ahead of the curve.
3. For better or worse, you don’t need to pass an IQ test to buy a ticket to a baseball game. How dare anyone boo Joba last night? So he made a mistake. Big deal. Life goes on and he will be a better person, not jsut a ballplayer, for it.
“if he starts giambi and sits matsui tonight, im gonna lose alot of faith in our new manager.”
That’s all it’d take? Giambi finally had some good swings last night, smashing a ball the other way into the gap. I can only assume it was a ball moving away, since it was a Carmona sinker. Going against Lee could be exactly the wrong thing for him, or it could be good for him to take yesterday’s success and try to build on it. I dunno. I can see arguments either way. Bobby could sit for Shelley or Giambi could sit for Shelley, or Mastusi could. I’d hope it’d be one of the former.
Since last postseason the indians obp vs. joba is .356 (5 bb in 20 ab). although their avg is only .181…
The Indians also have a better manager.
Girardi has not so much.
No the indians just have a better bench… not a better manager
Pete in your article you say that only Mussina smoltz pettite and glavine have made 400 starts in there time. What about Greg Maddux?
Pete-
From your notebok: “Andy Pettitte made his 400th career start, joining teammate Mike Mussina and Atlanta’s Tom Glavine and John Smoltz as the only active pitchers to reach that plateau.”
Don’t forget two pretty good pitchers named Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux, both of whom are well over 400. Also, the man Big Hank wishes he had, Jamie Moyer, has made 558 career starts.
All these articles saying these are the first runs Joba has given up at home are false.
He gave up an earned run in Game 3 vs. Cleveland last year. How can I be the only one to remember this?
Peter, please correct yourself or clarify by saying first runs allowed during a regular season home game.
an interesting bit of trivia - scranton has now used 6 different players at 1B already this season - a hint of something?
“The Indians also have a better manager.”
And what draws you to this conclusion? I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, to hear your explanation.
I can guarantee you that NOBODY in Cleveland thought Wedge was a good manager in ‘05 when the Indians frittered away a 1.5 game lead in the wildcard with a week to play and missed the playoffs.
I would like to see Joba mix in his change more. Hope he doesn’t shy away from it like Hughes seemingly has. Eventually as a starter he’s going to have to throw.
Joba couldn’t get a good feel on his fastball last night. He said himself postgame that he was “out of whack”. When he does this, he overuses his other pitches. This has happened before just with a different outcome. I’m really surprised no one has picked this up.
A-Rod is going to Tampa Thursday when the team hits the road to continue rehab. The Yanks are playing in Tampa next week when he is eligible to come off the DL.
If he really is ready to play rehab games next Monday, wouldn’t Single A Tampa make the most sense?
Prove Girardi can do anything more than just play music chairs with the lineup. Show where Girardi has done anything great with bullpen management. Show where Girardi has made improvements to the team by playing the best defense out there. Show where Girardi made any great decisions on who to put out during Kennedy’s last game - Damon in Center, Matsui in Left, first game for the catcher.
Show me one instance where Girardi has shown any skill in gaining a win through a during the game move. Wedge has done it a number of time against the Yankees.
The Yankees are hitting into tons of double plays, yet when does a stolen base attempt come? When they are already at 2 outs.
Where was Girardi’s real fire for the that poor call on Abreu being tagged at third?
Girardi has shown nothing to convince me that he is a good choice for being manager.
Think about how Wedge might have handled the situation last night. I sincerely doubt that he would have kept Joba in the game when he had Mo sitting in the wings going up against a lefty fastball pull hitter.
Add 6 more HRs by ARod this year, and this team has a few more wins, IMO.
Last night was another example of why its a problem with Joba in the bullpen. You can’t use 3-4 pitches in the bullpen. Its a two pitch role.
You throw too many pitches out of the ‘pen, you fall behind, you give up runs, and you cost your team a game.
That’s why you don’t see guys in the ‘pen using 3-4 pitches.
Joba thinks like a starter. As he should because he’s been one all his life and he is going to be one in the future.
It was plain as day to see what he was thinking last night and how he and Molina couldn’t get on the same page.
Joba is thinking, “I gotta do something different because these guys (Cleveland) have seen me a lot”. So, he decides to throw more curves and sliders in fastball counts. Big mistake.
Molina, being a veteran catcher and understanding the game situation, wants him to simplify the approach. Stick with his fastball and slider and work off the fastball. That’s why they couldn’t get on the same page.
Unfortunately, Joba is not going to be able to work on his 3rd and 4th pitches working 8th innings. Those are game winning situations. Not situations in which you work on your stuff.
Despite the bad that happened last night, one piece of good news occurred. Jose Veras.
Of all the guys they are auditioning (both in NY and in the farm system) to take Joba’s spot in the 8th inning when he moves to the rotation, Veras looks like a guy who has the stuff to do it.
His two outings with the Yankees this season have been lights out. 95-97 MPH heat and an unhittable curveball.
If Veras keeps pitching like that, and he has been great all year in Scranton, the Yankees have their 8th inning guy.
Not just for this season but also for the future.
That will make it much easier to transition Joba to the rotation when its time and much easier to sort out bullpen roles now and in the future.
“Last night was another example of why its a problem with Joba in the bullpen. ”
LOL, Yeah. I bet that WHEN he has those “growing pains” as a starter, you people will throw him under a bus. You’ll probably also jump back to the other and say it was a mistake to take him out.
You know, SJ, I had exactly the same thought about Joba that you expressed, above, but thought, nah, I’m not a baseball professional, what do I know. And if it had occurred when Joba was starting a game, then you have plenty of time to recover, and, as Kaat used to say, become your own relief pitcher. You don’t have the luxury of that when you come out of the ‘pen with the game on the line in the 8th inning.
Veras has looked like a different pitcher than last year. Whether it’s because of resolution of some physical issue I’m not aware of, or maturity, but if he continues like this, they’ll have a few options for the late-inning role.
Also big for Farnsy, coming in in the middle of an inning with a man on-base and getting it down. Yeah, it might just be his walk year.
Nope. Not at all. I, as well as CB and others have said for months he needs to be in the rotation. That’s not news.
I am well aware there will be growing pains when he is in the rotation.
However, for both the Yankees and Joba’s best interests, he needs to be a starting pitcher.
Critiquing someone’s performance is not “throwing him under the bus”.
This is not a cheerleader blog. There are many of those on the web. This isn’t one of them.
All we are doing in here is talking baseball. That’s it.
Since his recovery from surgery, Veras has shown tremendous promise. I’m pleased the Yankees didn’t give up on him after 2006 when he was throwing 10mph less than now. My only reservations with him are the double c’s– consistency and control.
But if he can master both, I completely agree he’s a candidate to succeed Joba in the 8th inning.
SJ44, do you think that’s why Joba was messing around with his curve last night?
I assumed he was resorting to his curveball because he was having control problems and I know many pitchers resort to throwing breaking balls under those circumstances. After all, Joba only had pitched ONCE in the last 8 days– May 2 (before that April 28).
I almost would guarantee that if he pitches tonight, his control will return and he’ll resume his usual repertoire and a pitch a scorless inning.
It wouldn’t surprise me if DeLucci merely guessed right on the pitch’s type and location and started his bat early.
Joba’s high-inside fastball to Delucci was a much better pitch than his middle-plate curve to Peralta in the previous sequence.
It happens. I’m not the least bit worried about him.
“This is not a cheerleader blog. ”
(Tell that to Trisha.)
“Prove Girardi can do anything more than just play music chairs with the lineup.”
Do you realize that Posada and Alex are hurt now. Jeter was hurt. Molina was hurt. Cano and Giambi haven’t been hitting. How do you expect him to have the same lineup with all of these occurences?
“Show where Girardi has done anything great with bullpen management.”
Any manager will look like an idiot with bullpen management when their starter aren’t giving any length. These past 5 games where the starters have gone at least 6 innings his bullpen management has been more than fine.
“Show where Girardi made any great decisions on who to put out during Kennedy’s last game - Damon in Center, Matsui in Left, first game for the catcher.”
You mean Hughes last game? Well Damon and Matsui aren’t nearly as bad as you seem to think. In fact it’s the opposite. Melky needed a day off anyway.
“The Yankees are hitting into tons of double plays, yet when does a stolen base attempt come? When they are already at 2 outs.”
The Yankees have only hit into one more DP than the Angels this year. In FACT the Yankees are tied for the 3rd fewest DP’s in the league.
“Where was Girardi’s real fire for the that poor call on Abreu being tagged at third?”
Yeah, cause being thrown out the game makes a lot of sense. The truth is you’re nitpicking Girardi’s moves or non-moves and not looking at the whole picture of what he’s been working with.
If Veras keeps pitching like that, and he has been great all year in Scranton, the Yankees have their 8th inning guy.
I’ve said this like thirty times on this blog. I liked this kid two years ago, but injury set him back. That and Joe Torres hatred of anything young.
I also wrote once in November how i had concerns about kennedy and his stuff being able to translate from minors to majors, and I got KILLED. Everyone threw out minors strike out rate.
8 k’s last night, what changed other then hitters that arent selective.
Not an anti IPK guy, just dont think he’ll ever be better then a 4th or 5th starter type (not a bad gig, they get about 10 mil a year).
almost forgot how good Veras looked after feeling so bummed out about the game’s outcome….
Re: IPK being no more than a #4 or #5 - last I looked, that’s what they’re in the market for.
Heck, even I know it’s not a cheerleader blog.
Tht said, I think people forget that the Yankees are trying to both contend AND rebuild this year.
It might not be an impossible task, but it is certainly up there. There’s a huge likelihood the Yankees miss the playoffs this year–but that the Yanks set themselves up for a run of meaning over the next few years.
It wouldn’t be fun–I can’t remember the last time the Yankees missed the playoffs–but it’s going to happen sooner or later.
The fact that the Yanks are even playing .500 with the injuries they have and the ineffective pitching they received from Hughes and Kennedy is something like a small miracle.
Yankees fans should appreciate:
Wang is 6-0 and it’s the first week of May. I’m sure there are still people who will say he’s not an Ace, but he’s been pitching every bit like one.
Mike Mussina has won three games in a row. It seems like he’s made adjustments that he needed to make, and he’s giving us wins where we need him. Even one of the losses to Boston, the Yankees only lost that 4-3, hardly an awful outing for Moose.
Hideki Matsui seems to have fully recovered from the knee injury that was bothering him. He’s still not the best defensive option in the field (though he’s better than he’s given credit for), but he’s done everything with his bat.
Melky Cabrera seems to be saying “thank you for not trading me” in a big way. He’s been a great surprise this season, and a poster child of what can happen if you don’t lose faith in young players.
Bobby Abreu is having a Bobby Abreu season.
The Jose Molina trade might be the best one Cashman has made in recent memory.
I think there’s a while to go before we start calling for Girardi’s head.
Oh, man, and I didn’t even mention the bullpen, which, by and larger, has been excellent this season. Farnsworth has been pitching great, and that changes the entire complexion of the bullpen.
I agree, but some have an unrealistic greater expectation of him.
The agrument was started over his name being included in trades. I said we should consider moving him (in right deal, not a dump, he’s too good for that). People wrote he was the next Moose or Maddux based on minors and small majors sample.
hey A-point, i am sure the fans in cleveland were lauding Wedge last year when the redsux came back from being down 3-1 in the ALCS to pull it off. but wait, that was solely the players fault, right? when u win, it is due to the manager and when u lose the players did not do their job. it has to be a combination of both. i must say kudos to wedge for ph’ing dellucci. he DOES have a goodly number of pinch-hit home runs.
joba will learn from this. NO ONE is perfect. lesson learned. but farnsworth is also looking pretty strong. he might be auditioning himself for a trade, huh? final year of his contract…
Kennedy was never an untouchable, and if the Twins had bitten, he’d have been in Minnesota. I still wouldn’t rule out his ever being traded - but for the right player in the right deal. But I still want him back in NY. I think he can be effective, notwithstanding the pretty shaky start.
I would give Joba a couple of days off here before the Detroit series. Let him pitch against the Tigers a team that has hardly (I believe one time) has seen him.
He did throw 24 pitches so I would give him at least a day off.
If it is a lead tonight I’d go to Ohlendorf and see how he pitches in the eighth.
Doreen,
how did you feel about his comments sunday?
i can’t help but think that somehow m&md will twist last night’s performance into a reason why joba should stay in the pen (ineffective when he uses more than the fastball/slider). or are they off of that stance now, with the SP issues the team has? either way, i’m sure i’ll find out by reading this blog later today…
but Jax, we may be without farnsworth for a couple days….
“I would give Joba a couple of days off here before the Detroit series. Let him pitch against the Tigers a team that has hardly (I believe one time) has seen him.
He did throw 24 pitches so I would give him at least a day off.”
He just had a bunch of days off. Sure, give him a day since he threw 24 pitches. But it’s not like he needs to sit for a prolonged period of time.
I have a confession to make. I traded Robinson Cano last night for Huston Street in my fantasy league. I needed a 2nd reliever to Mo to compete in the saves category. I’ll still root just as hard for Robbie, but there is a chance this trade cold turn out badl long term.
Where can I find a good cheerleader blog anyway? Loves me some pompoms.
Rickem Rackum Ree !….( ah…furget it )
Buckner-
I am curious about IPK pitching like Cy Young in the minors all of a sudden. I don’t know what drastic changes he made in such a short time (should have done that while he was in the bigs), but I am hoping it can also be done in the show when he comes back. I am hoping that he is not a “too good for AAA, but not good enough for MLB level” pitcher. Honestly, he was not even pitching like a 4-5 starter so it will be interesting to see if he can string a few more solid starts like this and see what happens when he get’s promoted again…stay tuned.
Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah!!
Gooooooooooooo Yankees!
“I have a confession to make. I traded Robinson Cano last night for Huston Street in my fantasy league.”
Noticed the AL’s best set up man so far this year, Santiago Casilla, got the save last night for the A’s. Was Street unavailable?
Saucy I think you’re right. They always tend to spin things anyway. I can here Francesa now talking about his 3rd pitch not being as good as advertised and he’s a two pitch pitcher that needs to stay in the pen.
He’ll talk as if the Yankees found a solution in the rotation with Rasner pitching well and will mention Kennedy pitched well in Scranton so Igawa will be on a short leash.
Then it will be because of those two things he should stay in the pen.
” There’s a huge likelihood the Yankees miss the playoffs this year ”
.
ODDS TO WIN THE 2008 AMERICAN LEAGUE PENNANT
Team…… ……….Open…… Current
Boston Red Sox ……5/2……… 5/2
Los Angeles Angels ..4/1……… 3/1
New York Yankees ….3/1……… 7/2
ODDS TO WIN THE 2008 WORLD SERIES
Team …………….Open…….. Current
Boston Red Sox……. 9/2……… 9/2
Arizona Diamondbacks .25/1…….. 6/1
Los Angeles Angels…. 8/1…….. 6/1
Chicago Cubs……… 10/1…….. 13/2
New York Mets……… 8/1……… 7/1
New York Yankees…… 11/2…….. 7/1
.
Me thinks me made me point ?
If the Yanks have a 3 run lead or less in the 8th inning tonight I guarantee Joba will be in the game. The best medecine for blowing a game is to go out there again asap. The old saying goes, “If you fall off the horse get right back on”
“I am hoping that he is not a “too good for AAA, but not good enough for MLB level” pitcher”
Don’t think that’s the case. He’s definitely good enough to be a decent #3 or very good #4 in the bigs. Stuff is not great, but it’s good enough if he can find the confidence in it.
I think the only changes IPK made in his start at Scranton were in his head… seems like he went in with the attitude that he was “going to make them look stupid,” or so Chad Jennings said on his blog.
Looks to me like Kennedy himself said that he was giving MLB hitters too much credit, and feels like he’s ready to attack them now instead of nibble at the K zone.
IMO, I could definately still see IPK moved in a deal for an available quality #2-3 type pitcher, like a Joe Blanton (but not him specifically necessarily). I dont think the Yankees really view him as untouchable, but wont move him unless the deal benefits the Yankees in a longer term capacity (meaning no trading for a pitcher or player who will be a FA after 2008).
look at the cupboard… with Horne rehabbing, McCutcheon dominating, Marquez rebounding, McAllister and Betances pitching well at the lower levels, you’ve got arms in the pipeline where moving IPK doesnt clean out the system.
not saying it’ll happen or i want it to happen, but it wouldnt surprise me.
“I am curious about IPK pitching like Cy Young in the minors all of a sudden. I don’t know what drastic changes he made in such a short time (should have done that while he was in the bigs), but I am hoping it can also be done in the show when he comes back.”
This is not an issue of Kennedy simply going down to AAA and dominating minor leaguers. This isn’t a case of a Kennedy being a “AAAA” pitcher.
This is just a case of Kennedy being a young pitcher who a lot was expected from who started aiming the ball in the majors, trying to make every pitch perfect.
Last night he just got the ball and threw it.
Nardi Contreras last night said that was the best he’s seen Kennedy throw at Scranton. Better than he was last year when he was completely brilliant down there.
That says a lot.
And everyone who put a lot of stock in those quotes of Kennedy’s about not having his confidence up in the majors and felt that Kennedy may not be cut out for New York - you should read Kennedy’s quotes from last night:
“I’m trying to say it humbly, but it doesn’t matter what I say, it’s going to come out cocky,” he said. “You just know. I woke up today and told my wife, I just have a feeling I’m going to make these guys look stupid.”
“I just felt like I could do no wrong,” Kennedy said. “Whether it was 2-0, I didn’t care, I could place a fastball away. I’ve been working on it every start, getting my mind set in the big leagues. I felt like I was getting better and better every time. It just led up to this. It was inevitable for me to do well. It was just a matter of time.”
“That’s the issue. It has been with me,” Kennedy said. “You think, you try to make it too good, and it’s a ball. Or, you leave it up, and it’s a hit somewhere.
“But instead of just not thinking, just throw it. Think, ‘strike, strike, strike’ instead of ‘mis-hit this.’”
This was Chad Jennings impression of speaking with Kennedy after the game:
“Talking to him, I got the feeling Kennedy believed he would have had a night like this regardless of where he pitched. He woke up today expecting to make hitters — any hitters — look stupid. He was going to have a good night here or in the big leagues. He just happened to be here.”
Looks like Kennedy took the demotion to AAA as a challenge and turned that into a commitment to changing the way he was approaching pitching this year.
http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.com/Blogs/SWBYankees/tabid/552/Default.aspx
“I can here Francesa now talking about his 3rd pitch not being as good as advertised and he’s a two pitch pitcher that needs to stay in the pen.”
From what I’ve seen of his changeup, it’s not very good right now and is a work in progress. Curve is not as strong as his slider and fastball, but is still a very good pitch.
I hope he’s not a Quad A pitcher. I read from a BP guy calling him reliant on control. He was that last night. He was not that in majors this year.
I personally am not the boo your team type of fan, so I want the best for any yankee. i do think he will get it together. Doubt he’ll ever be a 3 type starter, but he could def be a 6 to 7 inning guy with a 4.25 era. That would be valuable and realistic.
When I say 3 type I think of a Pettite, AJ Burnett, Kevin Millwood.
the only real beef I have with Girardi is the fact that Giambi continues to get playign time…guy has been beyond horrible since July 06
When I say 3 type I think of a Pettite, AJ Burnett, Kevin Millwood.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen those three names grouped together in any meaningful way. AJ Burnett has the stuff of an ace, Pettitte is more than a #3 in his prime, Millwood I guess you could go there.
“Not an anti IPK guy, just dont think he’ll ever be better then a 4th or 5th starter type (not a bad gig, they get about 10 mil a year).”
He has a #3 ceiling. He’ll almost definitely end up being a solid #4.
And he’ll be paid very little over the next few years (and let’s be real - payroll DOES matter to Hank ‘n Hal), making him a huge bargain.
Personally, I’m big on Kennedy because I see what this rotation can be in the future - power sinker Wang, strikeout Ace Joba, solid pitcher in Hughes, Kennedy - every pitcher (assuming Hughes and Kennedy pan out) gives you a -completely- different style of pitcher from game to game. That DOES make a difference (which is why I like Pettitte in this rotation at the moment, you need to have a lefty).
OK I agree Joba has a history of shaking catchers off and it very likely was the mistake last night. But some posters here sound like they could read minds and know for a fact what Joba was thinking before every pitch last night and what Molina was thinking and then what Girardi said to them both after. Theorizing isn’t fact. JMHO.
Isn’t 6-7 innings/~4.25 era about the better end of a #3 anyway? Given that #5’s average 6 era and #4’s average…what, a 5 era or so
“” There’s a huge likelihood the Yankees miss the playoffs this year ”
.
ODDS TO WIN THE 2008 AMERICAN LEAGUE PENNANT
Team…… ……….Open…… Current
Boston Red Sox ……5/2……… 5/2
Los Angeles Angels ..4/1……… 3/1
New York Yankees ….3/1……… 7/2
ODDS TO WIN THE 2008 WORLD SERIES
Team …………….Open…….. Current
Boston Red Sox……. 9/2……… 9/2
Arizona Diamondbacks .25/1…….. 6/1
Los Angeles Angels…. 8/1…….. 6/1
Chicago Cubs……… 10/1…….. 13/2
New York Mets……… 8/1……… 7/1
New York Yankees…… 11/2…….. 7/1
.
Me thinks me made me point ? ”
Are those betting odds? Then no, you didn’t make your point. Betting odds are set to maximize profits for the bookies, not the actual probability of winning
“When I say 3 type I think of a Pettite, AJ Burnett, Kevin Millwood.”
Pettitte was probably a #2 at his prime. Burnett has an ace ceiling, but has never put it together. Millwood - I don’t like Millwood, but that’s me
If he becomes a #4 pitcher in his ML career, and its with the Yankees, that’s a pretty solid career.
It would mean that he would be pitching in some important regular and post-season games in his career.
A #3 or #4 is a fair ceiling for him and something he has the skills to accomplish.
With young pitchers, its always more from the neck up than the neck down. Once he gets the neck up stuff down, everything else will take shape.
“how did you feel about his comments sunday?”
William Buckner -
I didn’t take them the same as many others did. My feeling was, of course his confidence has taken a bit of a hit - he expected to do well, he felt fine, and he felt like he had made progress. So I didn’t think he meant he couldn’t perform up here, I thought he was saying that everything is magnified up here, which it is. I think he was trying to justify in his mind why he was being sent down.
Last night was a good outing for him, regardless of who his competition was, because he pitched his game and showed he’s not giving up.
I can’t believe that someone in May says “There’s a huge likelihood the Yankees miss the playoffs this year”
So far this year the yanks have better starting pitching even with Kennedy and Hughes being horrible and a better bullpen. The only thing weaker is the hitting but thats mostly because Posada and Arod (our two best hitters) are injured. With those two back I think there is a huge likelihood the yankees MAKE the playoffs this year.
Some scouts rate Joba’s curve ball as a 70 pitch on the 20-80 scouting scale.
A 70 pitch is considered a plus-plus pitch. Not just a good one but a fantastic one that will be an out pitch.
To put this in context - there are very few pitchers on the yankees staff that throw any 70 rated pitches. There aren’t many pitchers in baseball who throw a 70 rated pitch.
So Joba’s curve (his third pitch) is better than the vast majority of major league pitchers best pitches.
Joba’s change up is generally considered to be at least a major league average pitch that will become a plus pitch once he gets back into the rotation and throws it more.
You have to look at any pitch in the context of a pither’s arsenal.
When a pitcher can start generating differences in velocity of around 20 mph he becomes very, very difficult to hit.
Joba’s fastball as a starter will sit 95-98. His curve ball is 76-80. His change up 80-83. His slider 85-90.
The differences in velocity alone will make all of those pitches very difficult to hit.
A league average change up is one thing. But if you also have a 97 mph fastball that league average change up becomes a much, much better pitch.
CB: Has anybody ever calculated average era for slots 1-3 of a rotation?
I agree. Its WAY too early to think about missing the playoffs.
Look around the AL. Forget Boston and Anaheim for a moment. Those are two very good teams and if they stay healthy, they are most likely making the playoffs.
When you think about how good the Angels are playing without their top TWO starters and Vlad and Garret Anderson struggling, its pretty scary.
Detroit and Cleveland? Sorry but, those are not good teams.
The Yankees were shorthanded and gave two games away to the Tigers. You look at the Tigers and you see the Yankees of a few years ago. Old, no range defensively, no pitching and competely relient on scoring a ton of runs.
When you play half your games at Comerica Park, you have to be able to defend. Especially in the OF. Now, they have Sheffield in LF and Ordonez, playing with a sore knee, in RF.
Curtis Granderson is going to be in the sprinters start position all year to cover that OF.
They drained their farm system in the Renteria and Cabrera/Willis trades.
They shut Willis down because he couldn’t find the plate during his rehab work in Florida. He’s now back in Detroit getting treatment. Their infield defense, aside from Polanco, has zero range.
Leyland is losing his mind and that team is a mess.
Cleveland? Marginally better. They still can’t hit.
The questions with the Indians are, can Sabathia recapture the mojo and is Cliff Lee for real?
Seattle is also not very good. They have no offense.
Oakland? I’m not sure they have the horses to stay in the race all season.
You look around the WC contenders and the Yankees, when healthy, are head and shoulders above those teams. Even with their issues, they are right in the race.
Its about staying close until they get healthy. If they do, they will be right in the playoff hunt all season.
Burnett has or had ace ceiling, but he’s about 30 and never put it together. Some good starts, some bad. Over all he’s not an ace, but not back end either. I agree Andy could be called a 2, just for sake of discussion, i used him as example. 4.25 might be closer to league avg for 3, but to make playoffs, you need higher then league avg. Everyone here would agree the goal starts with making the post season, so 4.25 would be about the 4th starter range.
Let me also state clearly, i like ipk’s abilities. i want him to stay on this team because i’d rather see him grow into a 4th starter then pay carlos silva types to be it. My contension is only that i believe some over value his abilities thus apply too much expectation.
“Has anybody ever calculated average era for slots 1-3 of a rotation?”
Yes.
Last year:
#1 starter 3.47 #2 4.01 #3 4.45 #4 4.88 #5 - 6.02
For teams that made the playoffs:
#1 - 3.22 #2 - 3.88 #3 - 4.12 #4 - 4.5 #5 - 5.67
that stated my range is somewhere between
Thanks
Hmm, makes sense that an average #3 would essentially have league average era; also makes me appreciate era+ above 100 more now.
I’m not worried about Chamberlain.
I’m not worried about Kennedy.
Assuming Kennedy recalibrates his mindset against the marshmallows he’ll pitch against in Scranton, he could carry it back to the Yanks. This is why I thought it wasn’t a bad thing that he said he was aware his confidence wasn’t there. Once he proves to himself that he has it at the big league level, he’ll be fine.
Still not worried about Joba. If you look at CB’s post about ERAs for various starters, Joba could give up 4 runs a game as a starter and help the team a lot. Even Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez gave up a few 3-run HRs in their prime. Maybe the whole situation will get Joba all pi**ed off (whether in general or at himself) and next time he’ll come out throwing 103mph heaters and a slider that looks like it takes a 90 degree turn right in front of the plate.
It’s matter of what either guy sees when he looks down in the shower. (unless it’s the top of Manny Ramirez’ head they see, but that’s not the point) What I really mean is, the adversity they face could make them tougher and therefore better.
Of course some people will over analyze and over criticize every time they give up a run or two. Watch - sometime in August when either one has a tough inning but their line through 7 innings ends up being 2 or 3 runs on 6 or 7 hits, people will say in the inning they’re scored upon that Ian’s not ready for the big leagues or that Joba should be in the bullpen. Even if they both have 4 straight quality starts leading up to that game (actually, that IS a quality start) chicken little and company will come out en force.
Why don’t you hindsight nostradamuses make up your mind?
Joba’s pitch selection is too predictable. Joba used too many pitches.
Huh? Self-contradiction much?
Joba shouldn’t shake off Molina…where was this complaint when he’s striking people out.
The reason the walks came was not because he shook off Molina, the reason was:
*shocker* those pitches missed the strike zone! Wow, who would’ve thought! Are you folks honestly trying to “rationalize” that if he had not shook off Molina, then his pitches would guaranteed to be strikes?
Pete - In your article you said this;
“Andy Pettitte made his 400th career start, joining teammate Mike Mussina and Atlanta’s Tom Glavine and John Smoltz as the only active pitchers to reach that plateau”
According to baseball-reference.com, you missed Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Jamie Moyer, Kenny Rogers, Curt Schilling and Steve Trachsel.