A few thoughts as it rains …
-
- May
- 16
A few things:
* It’s raining in New York. Here at blog headquarters in Westchester, it’s pouring. I’ll post the info on the game as soon as I get it. Please stop e-mailing, I don’t know what they’re going to do. They don’t consult with me, believe it or not.
* Willie Randolph may not last the weekend as manager of the Mets. The question at this point may not be whether he goes, it’s who they can find to replace him.
* It’s easy to say that Phil Hughes is hurt, Ian Kennedy stinks, so the Yankees screwed up by not trading for Johan Santana. But that would be missing the point. It has nothing to do with the players Minnesota wanted. The Yankees did not want to give a starting pitcher six years, $138 million and a no-trade clause.
Barry Zito, Mike Hampton, Carl Pavano, the list goes on and on. Long-term deals for FA starters aren’t good business and historically have not worked out. The best method is to develop your own pitchers. Whether it’s Hughes, Kennedy, Horne, McCutchen or anybody else, the Yankees have to draft and develop their own starters.
Sure, Santana looks pretty good now. Can you guarantee his health and success in 2009, 2010, 2011, etc? You can’t look at a baseball team by who is pitching tomorrow. You have to have some sort of plan and the Yankees have one.
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on Friday, May 16th, 2008 at 11:26 am by Peter Abraham.
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Didn’t realize things were so bad for him over in Met-land
Pete,
thats great for the KC Royals. The Yanks are in a win now mode, always have been. If they traded Hughes or Kennedy for Santana they`d be in first place or close. Would they risk $$$ by having Santana a few years with not much left in his arm like they have with Mussina? perhaps, but they`d be winning now. Thats the risk they take.
Pete,
I’m not entirely convinced of your argument, at least how you present it.
I don’t think the Yankees are against giving a pitcher a big contract - I think they are against giving a pitcher a big contract AND trading away what may be solid future MLB pitching.
We’ll see how this pans out with C.C. Sabathia this winter, but I suspect that if the only thing Sabathia costs the Yankees is one 1st round draft pick (which they may get back if they offer Abreu arbitration and he rejects it), they will go for him…
Not only that but, you would have Johnny Damon as your everyday CF.
Is that the direction you want to take?
With the lack of offense, how would Santana help? Unless he’s pitching shutouts everytime out, he would be struggling to get run support the same way everyone else is on the staff.
He’s not even pitching as well as Brandon Webb this year. For 138 million, he’s fortunate he’s at Shea, where the scrutiny is much less taxing than it is in the Bronx.
He’s a great pitcher. But, as we have seen so far, has he changed the Mets? Nope.
Their fans hate the team, they have even booed Santana, there’s infighting galore in the clubhouse, and Willie is on (managerial) death’s door.
No thanks, I’ll pass. I’ll take my chances that Phil Hughes develops, Melky continues to get better, and they use the money to do other things.
No one pitcher changes a team. A good pitching STAFF changes a team.
If the Yankees are intent on spending big money on a pitcher, they can do it with CC Sabathia in the off-season.
At least that just costs them money and picks. Not players.
That is, if they want to go in that direction.
Yankee lover: I’m not so sure they are in “win now mode” Ross Ohlendorf was thrown into a 1-run game the other day to sink or swim. That’s not a “win now” move.
Nobody wants to believe it, but they’re willing to sacrifice now to win big later. They want 3 WS in 5 years, something like that. Not loading up for one run and then paying for it for 5 years.
Right on, Pete. You can’t judge the Santana deal at year’s end, or even after next year. If he wins the Cy Young in ‘08 and ‘09, then has Tommy John surgery that keeps him off the team or ineffective for the remainder of the deal, was it a good one?
That contract/deal can only be evaluated fairly when it’s over.
Pete,
I doubt the Yankee fans would put up with that, if they were “rebuilding” why sign Posada, Mariano, AROD for long term deals and big $$$?
Watch Santana shut our guys down, I hate to say it but I think he will do what he always does. Regarding his season so far, its a new league for him. Further if a 27 year old pitcher with his track record can`t get a longterm deal who can?
“Thats the risk they take.”
Obviously not, they didn’t make the trade.
FA deals for bad and mediocre starters are a bad idea. You could even say that big FA deals for just “good” starters are a bad idea.
But FA deals for perennial Cy Young winners still in their prime are not the same thing.
Santana was NOT Barry Zito, Mike Hampton or Carl Pavano. Pedro and the deal he was given in his prime is a closer example.
“Pedro and the deal he was given in his prime is a closer example.”
That deal has worked out so well for the Mets……..
“Further if a 27 year old pitcher with his track record can`t get a longterm deal who can?”
i think thats the point… none of these pitchers should really get any type of long term contract. you cant offer a pitcher a contract more than 3 or 4 years, really.
“if they were “rebuilding” why sign Posada, Mariano, AROD for long term deals and big $$$?”
because you dont have replacements in the system for Posada just yet, MO is the greatest closer in the game, and ARod is ARod.
The Yankees record would be no different with Johan here. Okay maybe a game. Is that worth all that money?
Also he has given up a lot of homeruns at HOME!! Shea is a pitchers park!! What do you think would happen to him pitching in YS?
Chris NY
You even quoted the exact sentence, so how on earth did you miss the “in his prime” part. Or did you really think that by “in his prime” I was talking about the last 3 years??!??
Chris NY - Pedro was 34 when he signed with the Mets. I think Holdstrong is talking about his previous deal.
Pete:
I know you don’t like getting inundated with email about it, but view it as a compliment. Obviously, some people that read the blog think you are all powerful.
Chris,
Pedro won 27 games in three plus years for the Mets, and obviously it looks bad. However I`d bet that Hughes and Kennedy TOGETHER are not a slam dunk to win 27 games in three years.
I doubt the Yankee fans would put up with that, if they were “rebuilding” why sign Posada, Mariano, AROD for long term deals and big $$$?
Simple: who else was out there? The Yankees knew what they were getting into signing aging players, but they know the production that they can bring. The Yankees don’t have a good starting catching prospect above A-ball. There were no good closers on the market…and Joba probably won’t be the closer because he’ll be shifted to the rotation. Same with third baseman. There were no third basemen on the market besides Lowell, who had a very good chance at signing back with the Sox.
The Yankees have depth at pitchers, but they are sorely missing when it comes to position prospects that are ready to come up.
jennifer,
I think it`d be more like 3 to 4 more wins, and that puts Yanks in 1st place? It also would have lessened the load on the bullpen since neither Hughes or Kennedy ate up innings.
Yes, its worth the money in comparison to what they already have spent on other garbage
Good point SJ.
One further comment: there’s a meme being espoused by many Yankee fans (particularly the sabermetrically inclined), which is that the Yankees should not waste their money on FAs but develop their own players. C.C. and/or Teixeira are not particularly atractive options for these fans.
(I’m simplifying the point for the sake of the argument, and yes, I understand the value of trading for a Matt LaPorta who is contract-controlled for x number of years).
Personally, I don’t buy into this line of reasoning, because the Yankees HAVE money to spend, especially after 2008. One competitive advantage that the Yankees have is their large pocket book. One competitive DISadvantage the Yankees have is that fandom is surely not willing to put up with a 3-5 year rebuilding process (the Yankees would lose tons of money, both in gate revenue and Yes Network revenue).
That being the case, I’m both for developing young players AND judiciously signing FAs. By that I mean that if you have a chance to sign a young-to-prime-of-his-career guy for a bunch of money, do it. However, don’t go and sign over-the-hill types because you have no internal choices (as happened to the Yankees when they HAD to sign Pavano and Wright, because the farm system looked bare).
Plus, I don’t mind signing LaTroy Hawkins types ($3.5MM for one year is pocket money for the Yankees - heck, it’s pocket money for pretty much all MLB teams other than the shintzy Marlins).
jennifer:
A-Rod aside, Yankee Stadium still isn’t all that friendly to right-handed batters, even though it is more friendly than in Mickey Mantle’s days). Santana was always a second half pitcher. I don’t know how you people have forgotten that all of the sudden. Look at his track record.
Pete-
Johan was worth that money more then any other pitcher even WAng.Just like how Posada was a risk with that kind of money at his age you have to risk with some players.Kennedy stock was high and we could have gotten Santana if Cash would had made any offer.
Now with HUghes hurt we are gonna have the same problem next year as this year.3 starers with not a year Major league expirence who can’t go 180 -200 innings.We are not the Rays who look like the Orioles in 2006 where they where in first place in july.You can’t win with that many rookies and prospects.
They have 4 million tickets sold for this year and they are selling out the new Stadium quickly for next year.
They have already sold out all of the suites, and most of the club seats for 2009.
The fans will tolerate rebuilding/reloading just fine. They are proving it with their wallets.
Even now, the biggest cheers for players are for the homegrown guys. It tells me the fans are pretty astute to what’s going on.
Most educated fans see the finish line on what they are doing. They are shedding a lot of bad deals at the end of this year.
They are aggressively promoting young players throughout the system.
As Pete pointed out, putting Ollie and not Hawkins for example, in that game changing situation the other night, tells you they are in rebuilding mode.
They are giving every young player a chance to make a mark on this team. Not just for today, but for the future.
Would they like to win “now”? Sure, who wouldn’t.
Are they going to sacrifice what they have been doing for 3 years to win now? Not going to happen.
They will rid themselves of guys before adding on more bad contracts this season.
“The best method is to develop your own pitchers. Whether it’s Hughes, Kennedy, Horne, McCutchen or anybody else, the Yankees have to draft and develop their own starters.”
that doesn’t mean that’s all that should be done, and it doesn’t mean that all pitchers should be kept until 75% of them are proved not really to be prospects.
just developing internally is simplistic and ignores the fact the yankees have marketplace clout that other teams don’t have .
The way they’re hitting… Cy Young couldn’t help’em.
that doesn’t mean that’s all that should be done, and it doesn’t mean that all pitchers should be kept until 75% of them are proved not really to be prospects.
You don’t know if they are proved to not really be prospects until you put them in the show. There’s a big difference between AAA and the bigs.
JRVJ:
Hawkins is a back end of the bullpen guy. If the starters were better no one would be saying too much about him. Every team in MLB is always looking for bullpen help. Why do you think even most of the guys in the Yankees bullpen have been recycled a few times? Look at the Mets? Their bullpen is hideous but what else is out there?
I’d gladly trade Girardi for Willie.
But both teams suffer from bad GMs — they are the ones that need to go first. Chashman is the better of the two — but only just.
Sorry Holdstrong, I was wondering how you considered that in his prime… didn’t realize you were talking about his deal with Boston.
Yankee lover, agreed. But the point is, we’re not paying Hughes and Kennedy Santana money either.
Anybody know why Torre isn’t on the NL All Star staff? Did he even want to be on it?
You’d trade Joe for Willie? I’m sorry but that is nuts. Look at what is going on accross town, they hate each other, fans hate the team. Aaron Hielman stinks yet he keeps getting run out there in critical situations.
On the other hand, look at how Joe has handled this bullpen. He has done a A job in my mind. Everyone for the most part has done well in the situations they were placed in.
I guess the Rockies’ manager decided to pick other people. It would have been cool to see Torre on the staff, but I guess we’ll have to wait for a reunion special.
They gonna play, Pete?
They gonna play, Pete?
They gonna play, Pete?
They gonna play, Pete?
Huh? Huh? Huh?
They gonna play, Pete?
…….
SJ,
You are using one year’s unique revenue figures (Yankee Stadium’s last year) and next year’s probable revenues (new Yankee Stadium’s next year) to only partially illustrate a point.
Nobody expected the Yankee offense to suck this year. Conversely, there were decidedly mixed expectations about the Yanks young pitchers (Hughes and IPK have not lived up to theirs, Ohlie and Albie probably have, Rassner has exceeded them. Joba is in his own world as to expectations, so no need to go there. And there were no expectations for Igawa anyway).
I also don’t buy that leaving Ohlie in for one inning means the Yankees are in a rebuilding mode. I think it means that Girardi has a different way of managing than Torre (who would not have used Mariano the way he was used on Tuesday in Tampa), and he seems to like Ohlie a lot.
That’s just fine by me.
Another point that is missed- if they would have traded for Santana would we be witness to the inexpensive powerhouse that is one D. Rasner? I think not.
I have zero regrets on the lack of a Santana trade. With an offense as crappy as it is you can run Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, 90’s Greg Maddux and 90s Pedro out there and they’d still lose half their games.
Right, Hawkins is back-of-the-pen, but for $3.5MM for one year, that’s fine (and that’s very much my point).
What is not fine is to shell out $15MM for 3 years of Kyle Farnsworth, and get 1/4 of a season’s worth of good pitching from him (hopefully he’ll end up having 1 good season for the Yanks).
I think they just have more confidence in Ohlendorf than Hawkins… I think I do as well, for whatever (little) that’s worth.
All in all, it’s not a “rebuilding year,” but somewhere in between. They’re willing to sacrifice some of the “now” for the betterment of the future, there’s no doubt about that. Doing whatever they can to win now without sacrificing that future, instead of at the cost of the future.
Where would Santana be hitting in the lineup?
Yankee Lover, you are an absolute fool to believe that with Santana the Yanks would be in 1st place right now. First off, had we traded IPK and Hughes who would be the 5th starter?
Second, right now, Wang has better stats than (better ERA, more wins, more IPs, more CGs, less losses, much less HRs given up) Santana and him and Moose have more wins, Moose has less walks, has given up less HRs and their ERAs are almost identical.
So the problem isn’t Hughes and IPK its the lack of offense. If we had Santana we MIGHT be 3 games better right now. It doesn’t matter right now if we had the best 5 pitchers ever on our team, we can’t score. Your starter can hold the opposition to no runs for 9 innings but if your offense doesn’t score, you go to the bull pen and then what?
Those still wishing we had Santana are ridiculous. Unless Santana can hit .350 with 15 HRs up to this point, he wouldn’t be helping us.
Pete’s right.
No one wants to sacrifice this year but sometimes it’s necessary.
It’s not as though the Yankees are falling apart AND have a depleted farm system (I’m looking at you, Detroit).
New Yorkers might be the most impatient people ever (don’t worry I’m one of them)
You guys can keep talking about pitching all you want. All you’re doing is ignoring the biggest problem we have right now, and that’s the complete lack of offense. We’ve seen it probably 3/4 of the games we’ve played so far, it doesn’t matter how good OR bad your pitching is, you’re not not going to win games when you don’t score runs.
Pete keeps posting up the terrible stats the offense has, like he just did:
* The Yankees are hitting .229 against lefties.
* They’ve scored six runs in the last 42 innings.
* They were outscored 15-6 in this series.
* Johnny Damon was 1 for 18 in the series.
* They drew 10 walks in four games against Tampa Bay.
Those are pathetic statistics. Sure, we’ll win games. We’ll be a .500 team. Don’t expect to even be a contender for the playoffs if we keep hitting this way. This isn’t new. The offense isn’t in a slump for the past week or so. It’s been like this since the beginning of the season.
If the game is called, day game Monday? Yankees and Mets both have the day off. As awful as this sounds, this is something they might actually do.
“If they traded Hughes or Kennedy for Santana they`d be in first place or close. ”
They are already close to first place. The team hasn’t been scoring any runs lately and Johan hasn’t exactly been pitching shutouts over there in the NL.
Hoosier -
“..who would be the 5th starter? ”
The man-in-the-moon would be as good as our fifth starters have been.
Some Yankee fans think that this is like college or high school, that just because you “graduate” out of AAA it makes a great player. It doesnt gaurantee that you`ll be a servicable player. Look around, as a matter of fact, look at our triple A team SWB. I looked at the average age of that team vs. the average age of the Tampa Bay AAA team, and they are pretty close. Pitchers at 26, Catchers 29/31, Infielders at 27/27 OF at 27/28. Whats my point? two things, Tampa has no $$$ and they have about the same type of minor league situation the Yanks have. Point 2, There are a bunch of guys on both AAA teams in their late 20`s and early 30s, guess what? they are not major leaguers and are career minor leaguers so theres not much there. Keep in mind Tampa has alot of young kids on the major league level otherwise they would be in much better shape than the Yankees with far less $$$. Counting on anything more than one or two triple A players to help at the major league level is dumb since obviously the talent isn`t there, thats why theres all these late 20`s early 30 year olds down in AAA. You can get a major league ready proven guy from FA or trades and move it along quicker. Waiting for the farm to do it? Many are already in thier late 20s
what about in the off season the yankees push for 21 year old yu darvish?
I understand that they didn’t want to give Santana the huge deal AND give up Hughes, Melky, and Austin Jackson, but if Santana were a free agent, and all it cost was the draft pick, the Yankees would give him 6 years, $138 million dollars, no doubt in my mind.
Bill,
if thats the case, there’s a good chance alex would play monday
Sad to hear that Willie may be on the way out as Met’s manager.
He’s going to take the fall, but it seems like he was a bad fit for the team they have.
If I was the new manager, before I took the job I would demand they DFA Delgado. The guy is a cancer and is probably a big part of Willie’s and the teams problems. Remember back in his Blue Jay days this was the mutt who refused to stand for the national anthem.
I’m not entirely sold on Reyes not being a problem either. I think he is also potentially a troublemaker, but I saw him a lot when he was in Norfolk and there wasn’t a hint of an attitude with him then.
opinions about cashman really are likes votes in the upcoming elections. we all get one vote in the upcoming presidential election. we of course aren’t going to agree on who we vote for.
it’s the same with cashman. i could give a thousand reasons why i don’t like the guy, but the reality is i have an opinion that i’d like someone else. if i had a vote, i would vote for someone else.
people are arguing like there is a right answer to whether cashman should be the gm. it gets down to whether or not you like the guy. just like voting for president. sure you are basing it on the job you think the person will do, but no one knows the job the person will do.
so it’s really whether you like him or her or not.
the only votes that are going to count is hank and hal’s and maybe george’s. it doesn’t matter what peter a. sj , cb, me ,or anyone else thinks.
i’ve come to the conclusion that cashman is pretty inept, and he’s never going to deliver the yankees to another world series. that’s an opinion that can’t be proved one way or the other except to play it out.
… but if i were hal and hank, i wouldn’t waste any more time on cashman.
I don’t care when they make it up as long as it’s not between the 21st and 29th… I’ve got great seats to tonight’s game, so it would be horrible if they decided to make it up while I was abroad!
MackNova,
That’s my point exactly.
The one possible counter argument (which I have not read anywhere) is that the Yankees really have to stop spending due to financial covenants in their Yankee Stadium financing (think DSCR and such).
But nobody’s broken that story (and even though corporate counsel and bankers are discrete, that would have gotten out by now).
William Buckner-
That part would be nice (Arod playing in the makeup game), but me missing the makeup game bc of work would be awful.
Willie Randolph is too classy to be associated with the Mets organization.
With a weak farm system, Omar Minaya has provided his manager will old, brittle retreads, bad chemistry, and a few headcases. Willie deserves better.
“Pedro and the deal he was given in his prime is a closer example.”
Pedro was 26 when he signed his extension with the Red Sox. Santana was 29 when he signed his deal with the Mets.
3 years worth of prime age production is a huge difference.
Pedro’s contract with the Red Sox ended when he was 32 which most people consider the end of a players prime.
YanksRule
Just to clarify something that has grown out of proportion. Delgado refused to stand for GOD BLESS AMERICA not the national anthem he never had a problem with that.And the reason why he chose not to do GBA was because he felt it became a statement about the War and not about anything else. In addition if you look out now when they do it a lot of th e players are n ot even on the field they go into the clubhouse and I dont see people complaining about that.
Delgado may be over as a player but to pin a rap on him about not repsecting the national anthem is really just taking it too far and hanging something on him he doesnt deserve.
* The Yankees are hitting .229 against lefties.
* They’ve scored six runs in the last 42 innings.
* They were outscored 15-6 in this series.
* Johnny Damon was 1 for 18 in the series.
* They drew 10 walks in four games against Tampa Bay.
Those stats are depressing.
Sure if we had Johan…he could pitch a couple of great game for us(and maybe a few stinkers too). Will we be able to score more than a run? Ask Wang..the yankees have had issues doing that. Having Santana on the team does not automatically mean the Yankees would be a in first. If anyone thinks that, please give me the winning megamillion numbers for tonight.
It’s May 16 and we are in last place. Yes it sucks.
But the season is far from over and it’s not like we are 10 games back(though at times it does feel like it)
Let’s get the injured back..and go from there. I know a lot of fans are impatient, but they are gonna have to find a way to be patient. It’s a long season.
“On the other hand, look at how Joe has handled this bullpen. He has done a A job in my mind. Everyone for the most part has done well in the situations they were placed in.”
It’s easy to look like a genious when your pitchers pitch well. A manager can only use the players he is given.
SOMEONE HAS TO TELL HANK TO SHUT THE f*** UP!!!
JESUS THEY ARE 20-22 AND ITS MAY 16TH
HAVE PEOPLE LEARNED NOTHING
LET THE SEASON DEVELOP AND MAKE YOUR JUDGEMENTS IN SEPT!
BRING WILL BACK AS THE THIRD BASE COACH IF HE GETS CANNED
calm down w/ the capital letters
Wow, I had no idea that Willie’s situation was so tenuous. I knew things were bad in Flushing Wagner’s comments, etc.) but not that bad.
Yanks and $$$
I go to games as we all do. I am not going to listen to the Yankee brass worrying about $$$. I am sure they are raking it in. This business of them saying they won`t spend the money or they want to be careful? Come on, they got it, they will always have it. Money for the Yankees should never enter into it.
sorry just got a little excited
randy - We get it. You don’t like Cashman.
I bet if you put all 30 GMs names on a list, he’d be in the top 10.
Sabean would probably be #30.
Didn’t the Yanks and Mets make up a rain out as a split stadium day/night doubleheader a few years ago?
If the Yanks have an urgency but not a necessity to win now. There is a difference.
If Jorge or Mo or Alex were signed to one year contracts, that would show me they were trying to win now. Since they were all signed to contracts of extended lengths, the urgency just isn’t the same.
This team is being built to win in 2010 and beyond. The last year of the old and the first year of the new stadium guarantees them butts in the seats. Beyond that, they are going to need to field a winning team to keep up the pace of ticket sales they are accustomed to getting.
fire kevin long, get rid of giambi (any way possible), bring up gardner, and trade for a quality 1B.
simple enough. now get to work cash.
“Yanks and $$$
I go to games as we all do. I am not going to listen to the Yankee brass worrying about $$$. I am sure they are raking it in. This business of them saying they won`t spend the money or they want to be careful? Come on, they got it, they will always have it. Money for the Yankees should never enter into it.”
I don’t think you understand how business works.
One thing with the Mets, I never understood the Mets love affair with Manny Acta (just mentioning it because I heard it again on the radio earlier).
If people in the Mets organization liked Acta so much, why didn’t they just make him the manager instead of Willie? Was it because Willie was the “bigger name”?
I dunno, I’m hoping for the best for Willie. Yes he has made some mistakes, but the Met fans really dislike the guy. I don’t think there is much love for him in the organization either and unless the Mets go on a tear..I do think a change will be made.
“so it’s really whether you like him or her or not.”
That’s not how I think. Whether or not I like someone or not has no bearing on how I feel about their performace.
I would hope that with any business a person’s status depends more on performance than whether or not the person is liked.
santana isn’t even doing that GREAT when you look past his record and era. It’s taking him 120+ pitches to get through 6 innings. It’s going to catch up to him eventually
Probably be a day/night double header tomorrow according to Ed Price’s blog.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/
Mabye Torre does not want to show up Girardi. Lets face it if the yankees stink at the break and Torre is in the house he will get a BIG O and Girardi will get BOOED.
“fire kevin long, get rid of giambi (any way possible), bring up gardner, and trade for a quality 1B.
simple enough. now get to work cash.”
Fire Kevin Long? I don’t think ARod would be happy with that move. He credits Long with fixing his swing prior to his 2007 season.
Bring up Gardner - what if he hits .200? There’s no guarantees there.
‘Trade for a quality 1B’? Who? Who’s trading ‘quality 1Bs’ right now? What would you give up?
This isn’t f-ing fantasy baseball.
Just a small point here. Even if Yankees management acknowledges behind closed doors that this is a rebuilding year, and their eyes are on the future and remaining strongly competitive in the future, does not mean they want to give this season away entirely.
Re-signing Posada and Mo ensure they remain competitive while rebuilding, keeps fan favorites on board to make the rebuilding more palatable, and, as someone else said - who would they have been replaced with?
Welcoming ARod back into the fold gives them a perennial all-star to build around (sorry, Derek).
It’s a difficult row to hoe, rebuilding and remaining legitimately involved in a pennant race, but I applaud the Yankees for going for it. And they are lucky, so far, this season that the rest of the AL seem to be cooperating!
I disagree with the point on Ohlendorf, to me, he is a much better option for the present and the future than Hawkins.
Of course I agree that the Yankees were smart in not giving up the farm and the big contract for Johan. I don’t think any sane Yankee fan can honestly think otherwise.
Question about Willie. If he’s fired, I guess he gets replaced on the NL All star staff right?
Yankees win two out of three including the game tomorrow that I will be at
Let me get this straight. The best pitcher in baseball at 29 years old is a risk, yet signing Randy Johnson at 41, Kevin Brown at 39, Mike Mussina at 37 is all good business?
One of these decades the Yankees will figure out that they need to go after good young starting pitching, not players who have 1 great year like Pavano or Jurassic Park 4 with Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson. It doesn’t appear like they’ve learned a thing since the year 2001 when the Diamondbacks bounced them because they had 2 aces and the Yankees had 0.
Its hard to blame cashman when up until 3 yrs ago he had to deal with George and the tampa crew making back door deals. Since his last contract, the yankees went from having the worst minor league system to one of the best. Much like in the early 90’s.
I don’t agree that this is a rebuilding year, more of a combo. There were few attractive free agent pitching options so they opted on youth. The three best FA this off season signed w/ NYY.
This team has the players to win. Will they, no one knows for sure until some players get back. What we do know is because of the stocked system, they will have the opportunity to win for years to come, without relying solely on FAs.
Patrick Bateman,
Signing any player to a long-term, big money deal is a risk. For all the problems of the Johnson, Brown, and Mussina deals, none of them were commitments on the level of the Santana contract.
Besides, are you seriously unhappy about Mussina being on the Yankees right now?
The Diamondbacks indeed had 2 aces in the 2001 World Series, but they hardly “bounced” the Yankees, unless you call losing game 7 on a blown save getting “bounced.”
“Let me get this straight. The best pitcher in baseball at 29 years old is a risk, yet signing Randy Johnson at 41, Kevin Brown at 39, Mike Mussina at 37 is all good business?
One of these decades the Yankees will figure out that they need to go after good young starting pitching, not players who have 1 great year like Pavano or Jurassic Park 4 with Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson. It doesn’t appear like they’ve learned a thing since the year 2001 when the Diamondbacks bounced them because they had 2 aces and the Yankees had 0.”
Those were bad deals, no doubt (though Mussina’s doing fine now, no?) - but they weren’t 8 years, $140M deals. I doubt the Mets have full insurance on that Santana deal, whereas the Yankees have probably done OK on Pavano.
There is no ‘formula’ to winning the World Series. The 2006 Cardinals (I’m a fan) had only one ‘ace’ (Chris Carpenter), one superstar (Albert Pujols), and a bunch of other pieces.
Jeff Weaver? Jeff Suppan? Anthony Reyes?
Which one of those three names is an ‘ace’? (Suppan had an amazing playoff run).
Hughes/Melky were part of the initial offer.
As the offseason wore on the demands were seriously reduced. Many believe we could have had him at the end there for a combination of Kennedy and players not on the MLB roster right now… which, ignoring the money and contract, is about as big of a no brainer as you can get in baseball.
The issue wasn’t players, it was money.
And imo perennial cy young starters in their prime is exactly what you should be spending your money on. Like Hank said, those championship teams didn’t win with a home grown rotation. The recent Red Sox teams are not winning on the backs of home grown starters either. It is nice to try to develop your own pitching, in fact it is necessary in order to complement your rotation and to pull off trades. But to think that you are going to completely develop a WS rotation in house is a pipe dream… and that seems to be the dream Cash is stuck in right now.
“It doesn’t appear like they’ve learned a thing since the year 2001 when the Diamondbacks bounced them because they had 2 aces and the Yankees had 0.”
What? I like revisionist history as much as the next man. But despite having “2 Aces” the Diamondbacks needed a lucky ninth inning to beat the Yankees.
Also, the Yankees are trying to develop their own Aces. They already have and ace (Wang), now they’re hoping Joba or Phil develop into an Ace or at the least a number 2 with CC possibly on the horizon.
The 2006 cardinals ran through a triple A league and then got hot for 1 series against a MLB team.
Let’s not rely on that for our formula of success, mmkay?
holdstrong, I don’t think that’s right - I think the final offer included Wang. I’ll try to find where I read it (probably Buster’s blog)
“As the offseason wore on the demands were seriously reduced. Many believe we could have had him at the end there for a combination of Kennedy and players not on the MLB roster right now… which, ignoring the money and contract, is about as big of a no brainer as you can get in baseball.”
LOL! This tired schtick again.
Yes, a lot of idiots believe the Twins would have given Santana away for Kennedy and minor leaguers. No one with any connection to the Yankees or Twins believes that.
That would have been a no brainer.
The two leaked potential deals were Hughes+Melky+ and Wang+Kennedy.
“Further if a 27 year old pitcher with his track record can`t get a longterm deal who can?”
i don’t think i am interested in having this debate again, but i do want to point out that Santana is 29, not 27.
it seems like a small point, but it’s not.
“The 2006 cardinals ran through a triple A league and then got hot for 1 series against a MLB team.
Let’s not rely on that for our formula of success, mmkay?”
Oh, it’s the same moron, with a fourth name.
How’s your Santana doing in that AAA league?
“Many believe we could have had him at the end there for a combination of Kennedy and players not on the MLB roster right now… ”
Wang and Cabrera were both in the final request and both are on the MLB roster.
Can barely get out of the 6th vs. the NATIONALS, and you think he’d mow down the Red Sox.
“Many believe we could have had him at the end there for a combination of Kennedy and players not on the MLB roster right now… which, ignoring the money and contract, is about as big of a no brainer as you can get in baseball.”
How many times does it have to be repeated that the deal was never Kennedy and prospects. It was Kennedy WANG and prospects.
Replace Wang with Santana and the Yankees have the same record.
V,
“how business works”?
They have tons of money, and the income is tied directly to their success. When the Yanks were bad nobody goes they make less $$$. You want to make money in the NY sports market? Win and win now.
Regarding the Yanks minor league system improving? its better than it was but its still stocked with over age career minor leaguers that cant play in the bigs. If Ian Kennedy is the poster boy for the “great” minor league prospects the yanks have thats not good. Hes a # 4 or 5 starter on his best day. Which is fine.
“Fire Kevin Long? I don’t think ARod would be happy with that move. He credits Long with fixing his swing prior to his 2007 season.
Bring up Gardner - what if he hits .200? There’s no guarantees there.
‘Trade for a quality 1B’? Who? Who’s trading ‘quality 1Bs’ right now? What would you give up?
1) So because A-Rod loves him, the yankees should sacrifice everyone else’s problems and keep long? Makes sense.
2) Ya know, even he hit .250 it would be better then the shit damon has been putting up. And why not give the kid a chance? Like you said, you never know.
3) Who knows. Maybe Broussard, who was just released by the Rangers. No, hes not an all-star or anything, but maybe change of scenery could help him.
I don’t know why everyone is so thirsty for Santana. He hasn’t even been dominant in the NL. National League lineups have been wearing him down, making him throw tons of pitches early in games.
Can you imagine him in the AL East?
He’s very good but for how much he’s getting paid he’s been a bit of a disappointment. Wang isn’t making nearly as much as him and Wang has been better.
I’m glad the trade didn’t happen.
“V,
“how business works”?
They have tons of money, and the income is tied directly to their success. When the Yanks were bad nobody goes they make less $$$. You want to make money in the NY sports market? Win and win now.
Regarding the Yanks minor league system improving? its better than it was but its still stocked with over age career minor leaguers that cant play in the bigs. If Ian Kennedy is the poster boy for the “great” minor league prospects the yanks have thats not good. Hes a # 4 or 5 starter on his best day. Which is fine.”
I don’t know if you’ve been paying any attention whatsoever, but Kennedy is hardly the poster boy for the minor league system. He’s #3 ceiling, but probably #4 in the end.
Hughes and Chamberlain are the closest to MLB ready. They are both rather recent draftees. Horne is higher ceiling than Kennedy. Several relievers in AAA and AA that could help as soon as this year. Tabata and Jackson are a few years away, but definitely potential OFers for the Yankees. The single-A team is just unfair to its competition.
You don’t develop a complete minor league system in 3 years. But what Cashman has done in the past few years has been nothing short of amazing.
And you’re in business to make profits, not to spend 100% of your revenue on the product.
a couple of interesting splits from last year on holliday that definatly come into play in considering a trade for him.
coors field: 327 ab, 123H, 25HR, 82rbi, .376ba,.435obp, .722 slg
away from coors: .309ab, 93H, 11HR., 55rbi, .301ba, .374 obp, .485 slg
i’d say his value as a rh batter in yankee stadium in the a.l. would be slightly below his n.l. road #’s, which are nice and he is RH, but nothing near what his overall #’s would suggest. if we can get him based on those lowered expectaions, he could be a very good aquisition but not if we pay heavily for him.
“You want to make money in the NY sports market? Win and win now.”
The Mets haven’t won in over 20 years and they seem to be making out just fine.
By the way, has anyone looked at Holliday’s splits (Home v. Away)? They are beyond awful. Trading for him would be a huge mistake by the yankees, or any other team.
ham fighter-
you could go back 3 years ago too. same story with holliday. yikes.
And yes, you can spend $500M to buy the Devil Rays roster, and win this year, but what about next year? 2010? 2012? 2015?
In business, you want to maximize the present value of profits, not the present year’s revenue. You maximize your PV of profits in baseball by building a self-sustaining minor league system.
NL is no AAA anymore. Look around at their players. A lot better then in the AL right now. And I am the biggest AL homer of all.
ps it is not raining in the city now
I would hardly say Holliday’s splits are “beyond awful.”
and despite his splits, he’s still an All Star caliber player.
not saying the yankees should jump at him, or overpay to get him, or need him, etc, but he’d be a good addition to any team.
Weather.com really does not look good for tonight.
holliday’s splits away from coors arent as good as his overall, but to say they are garbage is way overstating it. if you double his road #’s he is hideki matsuis right handed twin brother, so if you’re calling that garbage, you’re calling matsui garbage too.
Anyone who thinks Wang and Melky were the last request for Santana before they took a bag of balls and a concession worker from the Mets is just plain silly.
The twins lost their position of power, just look at what they took from the Mets. If they took what they did from the Mets, they would not have seriously insisted on Wang and Melky from us… if either the sox or yanks decided to try to get santana they would have gotten him for much less than was being reported (ellsbury LOL, no way, the sox could have had him for MUCH less). Their packages would have been only slightly better than the Mets. But the fact is, neither team wanted santana because of the money.
So Pete have they told you if there’s gonna be a game tonight yet?
“Willie Randolph may not last the weekend as manager of the Mets.”
Really not fair to do that to Willie only 6 weeks into season.
over the last 3 years, i think they are below avg for a guy demanding a lucrative long term deal.
“if you double his road #’s he is hideki matsuis right handed twin brother, so if you’re calling that garbage, you’re calling matsui garbage too.”
not sure why you are only looking at one season’s worth of data. here are their career numbers:
Holliday Road: .274/.336/.444
Matsui: .296/.372/.485
not really close.
anyone in the bronx and can give a weather update? any guess on whether they’ll have BP on the field?…tryin to decided what time to head down to the game.
the fact is that unless you are Brian Cashman or Bill Smith, nobody really knows what the last offer was.
i dont think its out of the realm of possibility to think the Twins asked for mroe from the Yankees, or the Red Sox, than they accepted from the Mets. It was pretty obvious to me that if they were going to trade him in the AL, they were going to hold out for a king’s ransom, knowing he’d still pitch against them a couple times a year.
I’m fairly certain dealing him out of the AL had something to do with what they would take in return - that and the fact that it was too late to replace Melky in CF so it was harder for the Yankees to justify
Peter Abraham-I totally agree with your last statement. I think the problem is you have to be very patient to develop and I don’t think Hank can do it. We have to remember, this is also Hanks first year in charge and he doesn’t want to start off badly either. Expect a trade of some kind. He cant help himself.
I was just outside in midtown it is drizzling, but it is nasty outside.
If they decide to do a double header tomorrow, tomorrows game won’t be changed, they would just make Friday nights game, s*turday right?
“Anyone who thinks Wang and Melky were the last request for Santana before they took a bag of balls and a concession worker from the Mets is just plain silly.”
anyone who thinks they took a bag of balls from the Mets is just plain silly.
Gayle:
It is POURING out here in Morris County NJ.
Rishi, right on, was about to write the same. Shipping Santana to the NL makes getting lower returns more digestible.
Pete:
AMEN!!!! Finally, a voice of reason. I feel the same way. Santanna isn’t exactly dominating in the weak NL either. Yanks need to stick with their plan. I wish Hal was running the show instead of media hog Hank. Next year he probably can’t wait to fill up all the money coming off the books after this season by throwing 20 mill plus at Sabathia and Texiera for starters. If I were Cashman I wouldn’t even entertain offers after this season. I’d leave ASAP.
As expected, I knew the Santana talks would stir up again if and when Hughes/Kennedy tanked…which they have. However, there were many other factors to consider as well.
1. Damon manning CF…anybody see his throw yesterday?
2. Who’s our #5 starter? Granted that rotation spot has been cursed for atleast a few years now.
3. Money…140M of it.
4. Contract length…6 years is a long time for something to go wrong especially with the bad taste in our mouth from Brown, Wright, Johnson, Pavano, etc.
Very premature to be calling for anybody’s head because we are in the basement of the AL East. Wait it out, see what happens and work on the other things like a 1B, bullpen help, and developing out minor leaguers.
V. - i get it. you do like cashman.
The Mets were able to capitalize on a situation where neither the Red Sox nor the Yankees were willing to part with combinations of players and money for Santana. There is no doubt in my mind that neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox would have gotten a reduced deal at any time on a par with what the Mets had to give up. For one thing, the Twins hoped to contend with both the Red Sox and the Yankees for a League Pennant. Why send them an ace cheaply?
In addition it was not the players or the money, it was the players AND the money that was objectionable.
Jon Heyman spelled out what the terms of the Santana deal was in his story today on si.com.
The first offer was Hughes, Melky, Marquez and Mitch Hilligoss. The final offer was Wang AND Kennedy, with another lower level minor leaguer for Santana.
Those were the offers. If you don’t want to believe the facts, which have been verified by numerous sources throughout this thing, its your choice.
But, those were the two confirmed offers for Santana.
It was a combination of money and players that killed the deal.
If Santana delivers multiple Cy Youngs and championships to the Mets, its worth it to them. If he doesn’t, its not.
That’s a lot to ask of one pitcher.
Hey, are the Knicks still making money?
BU s*cks
“anyone who thinks they took a bag of balls from the Mets is just plain silly.”
yeah, gomez looks pretty good for the twins. i like what i’ve seen of him so far. he’s fast and really has a good arm. good looking center fielder.
It’s been raining in Bergen County all day and the weather looks horrible for the rest of the day.
I was just outside in midtown it is drizzling, but it is nasty outside.
If they decide to do a double header tomorrow, tomorrows game won’t be changed, they would just make Friday nights game, Sat right?
**night
I’m still on the Hughes bandwagon…he still could be the future ace we so badly need. I hope the Mets keep Willie…it’s not his fault that they were a joke last Sept. or that their offense is just as bad as ours. Maybe it’s Wllie’s fault that the Marlins are so hot too.
On another note can our offense wake up so we can beat the Mets all the way back to Queens.
This is too early to know… but if Moose ends up with an ERA of around 4.2-4.5 with 15 wins do the Yanks sign him to a one year contract in the offseason? I can’t see how you don’t. Thoughts?
tomorrow’s game is on FOX/ESPN or YES? I think that affects how it gets rescheduled..
“Really not fair to do that to Willie only 6 weeks into season.”
No, it isn’t. But the problem is that Willie doesn’t have support coming from anywhere. The fans want him gone, the bosses seem to want him gone. Not sure about the players. It’s unfortunate because I don’t think that the Mets problems are Willie’s fault. They have one good pitcher. Who’s fault is that? My vote is Mgmt.
But you know how things go in NY. Someone has got to pay for poor performance. Looks like Willie will be it.
gus if he stays healthy all year, i’d think he’d want to come back and they’d want him back.
Hank and Hal are “running the show” together. Hank is just more verbal (okay, plain verbal, since Hal doesn’t really speak out).
If people read entire interviews that Hank has done, and the one that I read that Hal did, you will learn, as I did, that one of the reasons they did not work under the father was they did not like the way he did things. They felt George was too impatient; they didn’t think it made sense to deplete the farm system without letting youngsters develop.
Hank is not George. If Hank was George, Santana would be a Yankee, because George did not really listen to anyone when he had his mind made up. Hank does. And I believe Hank is interested in the long-term, big picture. Which doesn’t mean that Hank doesn’t want to win. But I doubt that he wants to win “at all costs.”
Rishi
It is a 1pm yes game. Someone pointed out that MOnday is an off day, that would be more ideal than doing a double header.
Pete,
I can’t agree with you on this one. I think that the contract was a big issue for Cash but I also believe trading away Hughes and IPK together + the money was the real deal breaker. It’s simply not true to say that the contract was the reason the Yankees didn’t make the deal. No matter what anyone says after the fact. In retrospect, the Yankees passed on Santana because they didn’t want to include Kennedy. Baseball is and always has been about pitching, not making the move for Santana was a huge mistake and Cashman is on the hook for it. It’s true that the team isn’t hitting right now and Santana might only make a small difference. But that’s missing the point. Aces are hard to come by, much more so than bats. Santana would have helped this team tremendously over the course of the deal. So maybe you can only count on 4 or 5 really good years out of the 6 year deal, but Santana is better than Kennedy and Hughes will ever be and the Yankees missed the boat. Bottom line. Santana was worth the money and the Yankees certainly had it to spend. This really is going to be one of those what if deals people talk about for years. Sad but true.
Hey Pete, think we can get Hank to issue his reaction to the price of gas? Let’s get his insanity working for us.
Is it supposed to stop raining at all today? Or rain into the night? I hope they can play tonight.
Would you give up Wang and Kennedy for Santana’s big money contract? (plus Marquez and a A level prospect)
I vote “No”
“anyone who thinks they took a bag of balls from the Mets is just plain silly.”
Uh, no they would be a 100% correct… get a clue
“I would hope that with any business a person’s status depends more on performance than whether or not the person is liked.”
raymagnetic-
i would agree that it’d be good to just judge a person on their merit,but what we’re trying to do is make a decision on what we think someone is going to do.
that’s a little different. i would vote for varitek over posada for the all star game if i thought varitek objectively had a better year than posada, but i wouldn’t vote into the
future having varitek on the yankees because i can’t stand the guy.
that’s a bit of a muddled example, but i think many of our decisions in life get down to who we like.
Will the Yankees drag things out this afternoon about a postponment in the hopes that the Mets start throwing hands at each other in the clubhouse? Willie has an interesting afternoon ahead of him . . .
hmmm, you are right about the last 3 yrs stats of holliday v matsui, but you also have to consider that holliday is 6 yrs younger than matsui, so i think comparing last yrs #’s have more bearing on what to expect in the future.
on another matsui subject, remember the rumored matsui for dye trade from last year? here’s how they’ve done since the asb last year:
matsui: 19hr, 68 rbi, .304 ba
dye: 22hr, 54 rbi, .296 ba
Actually, rereading the Heyman article again…
“To review, the Yankees were originally talking to the Twins about a deal that would have sent Hughes, Cabrera, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez and a fourth prospect, a player at Class A Charleston, to Minnesota for Santana. But after Andy Pettitte opted to return, Cashman convinced his higher-ups to pull Hughes from the deal. That’s when the Twins requested that both Chien-Ming Wang and Kennedy be substituted to replace Hughes, whom they apparently loved.”
Final form of the deal sounds like Wang, Kennedy, Cabrera, Marquez, and a A level prospect (the wording leads me to believe that Wang + Kennedy substitutes for JUST Hughes)
I guess we should prepare for a double-header and a double loss tomorrow.
Hindsight trades won’t help what is currently ailing the Yanks: $hitty offense.
I don’t blame Cashman for going with Hughes & Kennedy. Edwin Jackson, the pitcher who shutout the Yanks 3 nights ago & outpitched Wang was 5-15 last year. Can we bear to put up with that from our young pitchers? Looks like the answer is no.
I can’t believe this Santana non-trade is still an issue, it’s done. While we’re at it, Beckett would have been better that Pavano, Dice-K better than Iggy…this can go on.
Carlos Gomez isn’t doing too shabby, and he’s only 22. Both the Twins and Mets think extremely high of him, IIRC.
Well that is just crazy - a whole lot (forgetting the $$ component)for Santana.
Does someone have access to Wangs and Santana’s #s for the year so far? I’d be interested to see the side-by-side (forgetting about how bad the year would have been so far without Melky)
Good morning everyone!
I hope they get this game in. My son has tickets, and it’s the only time he’s going to be able to see a game at the old Yankee Stadium.
We all know that the Yankees have the best interleague record, but did you guys know that Moose has the best AL record with 20 wins? I thought that was neat, but rather telling…Just kidding. Moose is our best pitcher right now.
This is a repost from the wee hours…
I don’t know if anyone posted this yet, but here’s a little “Jobalation” to pick you up. Hold down the cursor over the icons for a good laugh.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=snibbe/080515&sportCat=mlb
I’m glad we didn’t do the deal for Santana. I think he’s going to break down soon. Mark my words. He will be Pedro Martinez part 2.
Whats a bigger waste of money:
Santana only having a few good years on his 130M deal
Or
ARod, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Rivera, etc all wasting prime years while a bunch of rookie pitchers develop at the major league level. Plus none of the 3 young pitchers are guaranteed to become anything.
gomez reminds me of a young beltran the way he moves in the outfield.
Mel -
I got my Jobalation this morning!
Really funny.
Doreen,
LOL. That just sounds so…wrong.
“I got me some Jobalation!”
mel-
that link was funny.
mel
I like the bee one. 
“V. - i get it. you do like cashman.”
I don’t dislike him.
I’m also a Cardinals fan. Walt Jocketty was an alright GM. We was excellent at getting usable parts for minor league garbage. He got Jim Edmonds for Adam Kennedy! He signed older, retread pitchers that Dave Duncan worked magic with. They had an excellent team for a decade, were arguable THE best team in the major leagues for 2004 (remember, Carpenter was hurt prior to the postseason), and a large part of 2005, ending with the 2006 World Series win.
They weren’t very good last year. The aging veterans that took them to a Series win got old. The minor leagues are BARREN (Colby Rasmus is really one of the few bright spots). Mozeliak has a VERY difficult job ahead of him.
Was Jocketty’s tenure a success? Depends on who you ask.
Jocketty also didn’t have an owner signing the Giambi’s of the world for bloated, long contracts.
“Uh, no they would be a 100% correct… get a clue”
nice argument, way to back that up.
here is Baseball America’s top 100 prospect list:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2008/265655.html
Guerra is #35
Gomez is #52
Kennedy is #45, FYI
the Twins got 2 prospects in the top 52, plus 2 more decent arms.
unless you think you know more than Baseball America, i don’t think it’s fair to say they got a “bag of balls”.
we just happen to think, as Yankee fans, that there is no way a third party would prefer the Mets’ prospects to our prospects.
Julian Tavarez Designated for Assignment
Posted on May 12th, 2008 at 2:39 pm by Mr. Fleece
As reported by the Boston Herald, the Red Sox have designated reliever Julian Tavarez for assignment. This was done in order to make room for Sean Casey, who has been activated from the disabled list.
We know the Colorado Rockies have had interest in acquiring Tavarez. A deal could still be worked out between the two teams within 10 days. Tavarez remains a versatile pitcher, who can work and give length out of the bullpen. Thus far in 2008, Tavarez has a 6.39 ERA while pitching 12 2/3 innings.
———————————————–
After that time period he has to clear waivers right? If so, I’d love to see the Yankees claim Tavarez. I love his versatility and I’d love to put him in our pen.
Mel-Thanks for the link. Funny!
jennifer,
The bee was the best!
LOL from the Heyman article:
Meanwhile, Hank has been suggesting publicly that they aren’t discussing an extension for Cashman, and that is technically true. But what Hank fails to mention is that Cashman, whose three-year, $5.4 million contract expires after this season, rebuffed the club’s efforts to lock him up early in the winter.
“Whats a bigger waste of money:
Santana only having a few good years on his 130M deal
Or
ARod, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Rivera, etc all wasting prime years while a bunch of rookie pitchers develop at the major league level. Plus none of the 3 young pitchers are guaranteed to become anything.”
Ask me in five years. I can’t tell the future.
“ARod, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Rivera, etc all wasting prime years while a bunch of rookie pitchers develop at the major league level. Plus none of the 3 young pitchers are guaranteed to become anything.”
patrick bateman-
i certainly wouldn’t disagree with you.
but i would say that joba looks like the real deal to me. unless he gets hurt, he’s got IT, that special quality or charisma that you just know he’s ooing to be a big star.
How dare someone suggest that Mo can actually run out of prime years…
(he’s 38 and still kicking ass!)
“ARod, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Rivera, etc all wasting prime years while a bunch of rookie pitchers develop at the major league level. Plus none of the 3 young pitchers are guaranteed to become anything.”
The word guarantee does not exist in baseball.
Getting Santana would also not have guaranteed anything either, even in the first, more supposedly productive, years of that contract. There are no guarantees in baseball.
Wang should be 8-0 this season; instead he is 6-2. The two losses were due to lack of run support, not poor outings. My feeling is Santana would have been in the exact same situation. Plus, all things being equal (if Kennedy & Wang were in the deal), Hughes would still be out with a broken rib and a 9 ERA, and a revolving cast of characters would round out the rotation in the #5 spot. ARod and Posada would still have been injured. Damon would be the everyday centerfield, he of the stellar outfield arm, and Matsui the everyday leftfielder. Giambi would still be at first base, with Duncan in the wings. So, I’d say, net-net, the daily lineups would be more stable, but the offense would still be awful and the defense arguably worse.
I don’t see how Santana helps this team in the short term if Wang & Kennedy & Melky were the chips in the deal.
The terms of the deal with Hughes and Melky are never really clear - was Kennedy a part of those as well, or other players? I was never sure of that. Having Wang & Santana & Pettitte & Moose would have been a stronger rotation. However, the defense and offense still would have stunk. If Kennedy were still Kennedy, #5 in the rotation, the Yankees probably get a couple more wins than they have.
I’m still glad the deal was not made.
Bag o balls… a very small bag in a matter of fact
Pete, I have to say that you do know how to start a conversation. Your OPINION is to be valued and we all have our own. I don’t know if I agree with you or not on this one,,,but I don know that I appreciate that you have this blog, where we can all show everyone else how great of a GM we would be. ( Now I have to go back to work, just like the rest of us……”welcome to McDonald’s, can I take your order please…” )
“Welcome to Walmart”
Doreen: Technically, Wang’s 6-1…that Matsui homer snatched a no decision from the jaws of loss
Of course, we still lost that one because of no more runs… (.(
“Bag o balls… a very small bag in a matter of fact”
another slam dunk argument.
please keep them coming, reading your posts is the only way i will ever “get a clue”.
probably since you don’t even know you own name
When you have as much experience as I do in the industry maybe we can talk until then take a nap
Next to Alex, the highest paid player in baseball in 2008 :
2) Jason Giambi New York Yankees $23,428,571
Blargh -
I stand corrected. (Or, rather, I sit corrected.)
About the Mets trade with the Twins - it was not as much as the Twins were asking from the Yanks/Sox, but it was not a bag of balls.
What made me think Derek Jeter was the next highest paid?
“ARod, Jeter, Abreu, Posada, Rivera, etc all wasting prime years”
None of those players are in their prime, except maybe ARod. Mo is a total outlier in terms of aging, it’s true, but the other three are pretty clearly in their decline phases.
Ah, Derek’s third on the team after Jason.
And Derek’s third in the AL after Jason.
mel, that jobalation link must be the single best thing ever to come out of espn’s website. my boss would hate you if he knew you’re the reason i’m not getting anything done for the rest of the day now…
And, the trifecta - Derek’s third overall after Jason.
Ya learn somethin’ new every day!
“? If so, I’d love to see the Yankees claim Tavarez. I love his versatility and I’d love to put him in our pen.”
???? The Sox have more bullpen problems than the Yankees, and they DFA’d him. Why would the Yankees want him?
Chris NY 12:06…
If not answered by others, Ohly is a sinker pitcher (ground balls) and in that situation they had the need for a DP. It didn’t turn out the way they wanted it to, but it worked anyhow. Plus, he hits 93/95 with his fastball, so he can strike out a batter also…although that is not his plus. Just pointing out the reasoning be hind the move. 27/08.
“When you have as much experience as I do in the industry maybe we can talk until then take a nap”
oh, ok. that’s good, i was planning to take a nap.
until then, i will just accept the argument you haven’t proven based on your extensive industry experience.
i humbly apologize.
you are clearly better than…ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz
“Mo is a total outlier in terms of aging”
i just have start using that word ” outlier”.
it just sounds smart.
Bryan, you’re ignorant if you feel that
A. The Mets gave up absolutely nothing
B. The Yankees had some very minor offer, where they weren’t giving up much talent, that they could have accepted if they wanted to.
The Yankees wanted Santana. Badly. Giving a 6 year deal to a pitcher who is 29 and not the most built is a big deal, but it’s a deal that is worth it. Is it worth giving up Wang and Melky and giving that contract? Hell no. Is it worth giving up your #1 hitting prospect, your #1 pitching prospect, and your current young centerfielder? Also no. If Hughes and Jackson don’t work out, or if Melky or Wang hit a wall, sure, it looks bad, but that’s the worst case scenario. What if Santana is good for the first 3 years of his contract, then he falls off a la Barry Zito or he gets hurt a la Mike Hampton or Pedro Martinez? And what if Hughes, who is still only 21, becomes the ace people think he can become, Jackson becomes the next Beltran, and Melky becomes the next Damon (but with an arm)? Then you’re looking at an awful trade. Given the pros and cons, you say no to either deal.
everybody kowtow, a guy with ‘industry experience is gracing us with his presence and knowlege~
Shhhh! Don’t wake hmmmmmm! He needs his kindler and gentler beauty sleep.
“Plus, he hits 93/95 with his fastball, so he can strike out a batter also…although that is not his plus.”
Well, he’s averaged about a K per inning in the majors. Moving to the pen and thus being able to air it out every time he’s out there has enabled him to K some more guys than he did as a starter, I think. He’d also not thrown in a week, so I’m not super surprised he wasn’t real sharp. Even so, the hits were kinda bouncers. I’m not real upset with the outing he had. I still want to see him in high-leverage situations, not the sacrificial lamb role he was in early.
“Does someone have access to Wangs and Santana’s #s for the year so far?”
rishi, here ya go (based on the theory that if you give a man a fish he has 1 dinner but if you teach a man how to fish, he can eat for a lifetime, which is a nice way of saying ‘look it up yoursef):
everybody that has a computer has access to everybody’s #’s:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/players/index.jsp
doreen: was your jobalaion jobalicious?
“i just have start using that word ” outlier”.
it just sounds smart.”
Well, I should have said that Mo’s career arc is a statistical outlier with respect to those of other relief pitchers at his age. That’d be a more precise statement. He still ages at the same rate as the rest of us