The Sunday Links
-
- May
- 18
The Mets needed a win and they beat the Yankees. Brian Heyman has the story.
Hank Steinbrenner was watching but isn’t worried about the Yankees. Perhaps he should be worried about Andy Pettitte.
Billy Wagner wants more work. This notebook also has an update on Alex Rodriguez and other tidbits.
Has the plan on Joba Chamberlain changed? Brian Cashman won’t say.
Johan Santana was the center of attention according to columnist Rick Carpiniello.
The Mets got it together amid their problems. John Delcos has that story.
The Sunday Baseball Beat focuses on the first-place Rays. There’s also a chat with Gary Sheffield.
This entry was posted
on Sunday, May 18th, 2008 at 2:40 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
I’d like to know when it was the last time that on May 18 the Yankees were in last place and the Rays in first place. No doubt that the Yankee need to win tonight with Wang on the mound, enough with this playing around, we gotta put together some kind of a winning streak or it’ll get out of hand, as they say it’s getting late early.
We would be in first place instead of last if we have Santana and Wang, the truely ace and the best number2 pitcher in the business. We would be unrivaled.
If teams could expand their rosters to 40 on June 1st rather than September 1st, Giambi, Damon, and Farnsworth would see little if any playing time.
If they don’t transition Joba into the rotation in six weeks, I’m rooting for the Mets and Red Sox. Like last year, it’s going to be a miracle if this team makes the playoffs this year. Keeping him in the pen is thinking only about this year.
I think after some seasoning, Girardi will learn to stay a bit more tight-lipped. It’s like he comes out of these meetings and is itching to tell a secret when the media puts a tape recorder in front of his face.
the game today and the blog has been cancelled for a lack of interest.
according to lohud, even brain cashman is not interested in talking about the yankees.
“General manager Brian Cashman, who believes Chamberlain should be a starter, is weary of the topic.
“With all due respect, I just don’t want to talk about Joba now,” he said. “Nothing has changed other than that I’m tired about talking about Joba’s role.”
“Let’s just leave it alone,” Cashman said. “He’s going to go into the rotation at some point. We’ll let you know. Now the question obviously is, is it going to be ‘08 or ‘09 or 2010? That’s all fine. I just don’t want to get into it. It’s wasted energy.”
2009? 2010?
fans must realize that brian has a philosopy. he is not the shell answer man. if fans want answers, they should go to answer.com.
i can’t believe the nerve of fans actually questioning brian about joba. when will the fans learn that this is brian’s philosohy and by defacto his team. he is under no obligation to use up his energy keeping fans on anything but a need to know basis.
fans must understand it is their obligation to watch games on tv,show up at the ball park and most of all buy newspapers. their obligation is to provide money to keep the yankees going. let them worry about that, and leave brian alone to gather his energy to further work on his philosophies.
plato and aristotle did not have to deal with demanding fans. brian should not either.
brian especially wants to save his energy for his “allegory of the prospects”. it’s a take off on plato’s allegory of the cave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
“Imagine prisoners who have been chained since their childhood deep inside a cave: not only are their arms and legs unmovable because of chains; their heads are chained in one direction as well so that their gaze is fixed on a wall.
Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which puppets of various animals, plants, and other things are moved along. The puppets cast shadows on the wall, and the prisoners watch these shadows. When one of the puppet-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.”
substitute” fans” for prisoners and you’ll understand where brian is going with his “allegory of the prospects”.
“The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game: naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of objects. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who play poorly.”
as you can see,brian’s” allegory of the prospects” will continue in the tradition of plato’s allegory of the cave, but only if brian is left alone by fans to conserve his energy. so in the name of furthering western civilization, please leave questions of ABSOLUTE TRUTH to brian.
“5. Red Sox
Boston placed Clay Buchholz on the disabled list with a broken fingernail. It was either that or split ends.”
LOL! Pure genius Pete. Great line!
Bronxbomber77
At least the Yankees came up with a fractured rib for Phil.
(Just Kidding!!!!!!!!)
sometimes in philosophy circles, “myth of the cave” is substituted for “allegory of the cave”, but brian does not like “myth of the prospects” to be substituted for ” allegory of the prospects” when discussing his myth- i mean- philosophy.
special note to beat reporters : it’s especially important to remember this if brian is tired and cranky.
the fox morning report just reported that giambi’s golden thong snapped when igawa and cano were fighting over who would wear it next. it has been sent out for an mri to see how long it will be out of action.
brain cashman is weary of answering questions of whether the golden thong was brought back too soon after a similar incident involving giambi and betemit when the snapped thong hit betemit in the eye resulting in pink eye.
“We would be in first place instead of last if we have Santana and Wang, the truely ace and the best number2 pitcher in the business. We would be unrivaled.”
Yes! Because having Santana means our offense would score more runs and A-Rod and Posada would not be hurt! And we wouldn’t have given up anything of value to get him like our starting CF either!
Can someone explain to me where this Joba as a savior comes from? I know he was lights out last year, but this year, he has been very pedestrian.
– | Joba | Joe Smith
G | 17 | 19
IP | 18.1 | 17.1
H | 13 | 12
R | 6 | 6
ER | 6 | 1
HR | 1 | 0
BB | 7 | 5
SO | 22 | 18
WHIP | 1.09 | 0.98
ERA | 2.95 | 2.60
A 2.95 is pedestrain like?
Does anyone else hate Michael Kay as much as I do I cant stand that guy he is just an awful play by play commentator. As a whole the yanks need to improve there commentators on the TV and most definitely on the Air.
Maybe pedestrian is the wrong word. 2.95 is good. But basically he is Joe Smith of the Mets. I don’t think Met fans have anointed him their next closer or great starter.
I’m starting to think Joba is a bit overrated. But that doesn’t mean he is bad and I think he will be the best of the three young guys.
He’s Joe Smith, based on what, a blind look at a stat sheet?
He’s a starting pitcher in a relief role. That means, he pitches with half his reportoire.
Joe Smith doesn’t have a single pitch that rivals Joba’s third best pitch.
There is more to baseball than just look at stats. Unfortunately, too many fans are just glued to the stat sheet.
Why don’t you do this? E-mail any national baseball writer, scout or front office executive with your belief and see what their responses you get back.
He’s not overrated. He’s in the wrong role. Despite that, he has been dominant in that role.
He’s not perfect. If you are looking for perfection, you are watching the wrong sport.
Steve Balboni
Joe Smith has a better ERA than Papelbon too. Think Theo has Omar on the phone talking trade?
One last point re: this Joba vs. Joe Smith “debate”.
How many 8th innings has Joe Smith worked this year to accumulate his stats?
Or, do you not believe there is a “slight” difference in pressure in pitching 8th innings of games as opposed to working 6th and 7th inninga?
The Yankees have a lot of issues. Joba Chamberlain isn’t one of them.
In fact, the sooner they get him into the rotation, the faster they would solve one of their glaring issues. Inadequate and inconsistent starting pitching.
NO Pitching + NO Hitting = NO Playoffs. Get ready for the Apocalypse.
When are people going to get it through their heads.
The last offer to the Twins was Kennedy, Wang, Melky, and another minor leaguer.
So we wouldn’t have had Wang and Johan at the top of our rotation.
Plus Johan did NOT look good yesterday.
**from**
I’m not saying Joba should be released. Just like I’m not saying Smith is Mariano II. I am just saying that maybe, just like Hughes and Kennedy after last year, we jumped to conclusions about how good he is.
And I only threw ERA in there because it as available. ERA is a very poor way of evaluating relief pitching.
And as for pressure spots, Smith doesn’t start innings. He is brought in with men on base and has stranded about 16/18 of them. Those re absolutely pressure at-bats.
I just feel like Joba has this reputation that he hasn’t really earned yet. NOT that he won’t be a future ace.
Unless Johan Santana can hit, he has no value to this team. Not at the cost it would have taken to acquire him.
He’s giving up HR’s by the bushel. He beat a last place yesterday. Good for him. He is SUPPOSED to beat last place teams for the 138 million he’s being paid.
If he was in the AL, he would need to be on a team that can outhit his mistakes. That’s not this years Yankee team.
If they made the trade, they would have Johnny Damon playing CF, and still be short a starting pitcher or two.
Not exactly what you are looking for in playoff teams.
Sometimes, its best to take a step back and look at the trends in the game today.
The three worst teams in the AL right now (record-wise. Which is all that matters), are Seattle, Detroit and the Yankees.
What do those teams have in common?
1. All three were predicted by many to be playoff teams.
2. All three are among the oldest teams in the AL.
3. All three are among the worst hitting teams in the AL at this time.
4. All three lack overall team speed and athleticism. A player or two on your team does not equate overall team speed and athleticism.
5. All three teams play the game with next to zero energy or enthusiasm. In other words, they are so weighed down by expectations, they aren’t yet able to get out from under them. Its also a byproduct of age. Simply put, older teams don’t play with the energy young teams do.
6. All three teams have some parts but not all the parts of a successful, playoff-type team. They also find new ways to lose every night. The telltale sign of losing teams.
The game is trending younger and more athletic and the Yankees, Mariners and Tigers are trapped with rosters of guys who represented the “older” way of doing business.
That is glaring when you look at the changes in the game for the first quarter of the season.
Is weather, no greenies, lack of PED’s? I don’t know but, when you look at the teams doing well, the Yankees, Tigers and Mariners flaws are so visable, its going to be an uphill battle for those teams to right their collective ships the rest of the way.
“Plus Johan did NOT look good yesterday.”
Have to agree, especially coming against a short Yankee lineup. He gave up three dingers and is on his way to another disturbing year in the HR allowed category. If Johan had come to the Yankees, the only thing anybody would be talking about is what a jerk Cashman was for giving up Melky, Wang and Kennedy for Johan. Then there would be worry that he’s not going to last that long, then the Yankees would try to change Johan’s mechanics…
Does anybody truly realize the number of things that had to go right for the Yankees to win four out of 5 WS in the late 90s? It’s not about snapping your fingers, writing a check and getting a good team on paper. People aren’t paper, they are much more complicated, sometimes better and sometimes worse than their numbers. Then there’s injuries, the relative strength of other teams in the division at the same time, depth at AAA, the availability of good impact players at the deadline, the schedule, team cohesion and leadership… and luck (See, e.g., 12-year-old Yankee fan Jeffrey Maier in ‘96 against the O’s).
Every season is different even with the same team coming back. But this year there are two rooks in the rotation, a new manager, key injuries, developing divisional parity, a hitting slump that defies explanation, aging players on big contracts coming home to roost. This team is as good as its record at the moment, despite the declarations of Cashman, Hank, Hal or Girardi to the contrary. And I’m worried about Pettitte. With his elbow history this could be more than an early slump. Not going negative, just being realistic.
Here’s some new pics of the new stadium.
http://tinyurl.com/6h8ld7
The fact of the matter is that this team is right where it deserves to be. They frankly just aren’t very good. Yesterday they made two critical baserunning mistakes that could have turned this game around. They also played shoddy defense as Melky misplayed a ball that he could have caught into a triple, Jeter and Gonzales both misplayed popups and Farnsworth was his usual unreliable self. As a Yankees fan I am resigned to the fact that the team just isn’t very good. I will still watch and root for them, but it certainly is no fun watching a team that can’t get on base, doesn’t score, plays bad defense and pitches inconsistently. Hopefully they will revamp this team next year into one that can actually play the game.
“”Does anyone else hate Michael Kay as much as I do I cant stand that guy he is just an awful play by play commentator. As a whole the yanks need to improve there commentators on the TV and most definitely on the Air.”"
Agreed. I do like the color commentators but Kay is a jerk. He is one of those guys for whom it’s more important to make himself sound smart than to actually describe the game or allow the other guys to speak freely. It’s like listening to Mike and Maddog doing an interview. They ask a question and then answer it before the person can speak.
The only thing impressive about Johan yesterday was, was a,was, the yankees being unable to hit mediocre pitching. As things are at present, there is no Yankee with threatening numbers, still he gave up three dingers. There certainly were not an appropriate amount of base runners ahead of the dingers. Without threats no one sees good pitches.
Murph,
Agreed. I think it was Guiseppe Franco on here yesterday that said the Yankees aren’t going to make deals to make this team better this season at the cost of the younger players.
I agree with that sentiment 100%. Its not going to happen. Regardless of who the GM is, because neither Hank nor Hal will make this team older to try and save the season.
Sometimes, you just aren’t good enough. If the veteran players on this team can’t step it up, then they aren’t good enough this year.
They aren’t going to quick fix this team. If they can’t play better, younger players are going to get bigger roles in the second half of the season to see what they can do and the older guys will be fading into the sunset.
They have a ton of money coming off the books after this season and a lot of younger players in the pipeline. They will have options they don’t presently possess to improve the team.
Right now though, its about what they have now and its not good enough to win. At least not at this time.
I also am worried about Pettitte. He hasn’t won since April 20 and hasn’t pitched well for most of the season.
He is the only guy on the staff being given mulit-run leads in his starts and he can’t hold them.
And save me the, “he was unlucky” yesterday. No he wasn’t. He pitched poorly.
Three hits to start the inning while possessing a 2 run lead. Two more walks, one with the bases loaded to a LH hitter, that brought in the tying run. The slow roller was unlucky. The rest of it? All on Pettitte.
He’s not pitched well and there is no internal replacement if he can’t. They needed 200+ innings and 15-17 wins out of him to contend this year. At this pace, he isn’t going to get it done.
Hopefully, he turns it around. But, aside from hope, there is no evidence at this time he will.
His stuff hasn’t looked good in a month. Not exactly what you want to see from the guy you have so much riding on this year.
Martin
May 18th, 2008 at 8:38 am
If they don’t transition Joba into the rotation in six weeks, I’m rooting for the Mets and Red Sox.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There’s 2 names for this type of fan. A fair weather fan and a bandwaggoner.
If the Yankees did not re-sign Posada and A-Rod, we would be calling this a rebuilding year. They are injured so we have to lower expectations a bit. They are on the way back so there is a hope!
It looks like they shifting away from putting Joba into the rotation. I was kind of hoping for them to shift him to the starting rotation role after all star break. Now it seems unlikely judging by cashman and giradi’s quotes.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/05/17/2008-05-17_secret_papers_show_how_yankees_became_ri.html
Hopefully the food will taste better!!
I left yesterdays game thinking, even though we lost, it will shut people up about not getting Johan. I guess I was wrong. ;(
They re-signed Arod, Posada and Rivera because they were the best players at their respective positions. Those moves had to be made. As we have seen, life without Arod and Posada ain’t pretty.
That said, I agree with you, there is no question this is the rebuilding season.
Sure, they want to win. But, you won’t see foolish trades to beef up this team.
They see what Tampa is building. Their players in the minors are as good (or better) than many of the guys on their present roster. They are going to be a force in the AL for years to come. They know the Red Sox have a very solid farm system and are also trending younger.
The Yankees see the trends. They are just stuck underneath some awful contracts right now.
That ends after this season.
Hopefully, they play better, or at least up to their collective potential. Injuries aside, we have not seen that from this team so far this year.
That’s on the players. Not on the manager and coaches. Players play. The managers and coaches do not. Its disappointing to see so many guys not step and contribute more in the absences of Arod and Posada.
Its almost as if the entire team is waiting for them to return.
Not what I like to see from a veteran team.
Fortunately, there is a ton of time remaining in the season for it to turn.
But, it has to turn soon because the league is really bunched up this year. Not a lot of easy wins out there to be had. Unlike previous years when they had slow starts.
Randy I…
I think that everyone reading this blog has the idea…you hate Cash! No need to keep harping on it. We got it! One can throw out all the stats one wants, but the bottom line is…he is the GM, and has much more information then we (as fans) have. He will make the best moves that he can, for the team. If we don’t agree with them, so be it. Not a criticism, just a fact. 27/08.
Some people will never stop bringing up Johan….
Unless maybe we win the world series this year…
You know, I’m kind of scared of being around here if, g-d forbid, the Yankees miss the playoffs.
It’s going to happen sooner or later.
SJ… Let’s see things play out on the league atheleticism issue. A guy like gardner or others can change things pretty drastic.. I am amazed how many yankee hits are caught by there opponents and how infrequently in my opinion the yanks take away hits, to me that is the athleticism example..
I disagree on the Yankees being old especially in the pitching. moose is 39, pettitte 35 ,and Mo 37 that is it for age. hawkins is a throw in and Kyle is 32 and gone at the end of the yr. pitching in the pen especially is young with many more arms coming.
offenisevly they are much older but cano has like the 10 worst OPS in baseball how can that be??? the problem is tabata, jackson, and others are over a yr away. Gardner is the only one near ready and he is not exactly Mantle…
I think they can move some relievers if they choose, I do expect the offensive to pick up just by having arod back. the ensberg, molina etc are so terrible just a decent performance by arod and jorge(4 weeks) will make a HUGE difference…
I am not giving up on this season at all.
Detroit and Seattle have much more significant issues then the yanks.. Seattle has 2 very good starters with significant upside but there offense is terrible with no real
injuries. I am not suprised by Detroit that they stink. I am suprised how they stink, there pen actually has been pretty decent, who knew how that there starting would be this terrible and there hitting not as dominating as expected. Verlander is shocking, I am not suprised bonderman, robertson and rogers have struggled they did last yr. and WIllis I am not a big fan of so they and seattle have many more problems then then the yanks..
I’m driving down from Albany for the game tonight. I pray it isn’t postponed.
Everyone loves a frontrunner! The Rays are not really that good. Fine pitching, Yes. But we would scoff at Hinske,Floyd,Bartlett, Navarro, Gomes and Gross. Pena has a BIG hole in his bat, even the Rays announcers are commenting on it as it is being hidden by others’ successes right now. Longoria would be melting under NY media pressure if he were with the Yanks.
Only Crawford and Upton are or are going to be stars.
They will come back to the pack and fall to their proper place soon.
Think A-Rod, Cano back to norm, Giambi an occasional producer, Melky improving and Jeter,Matsui and Abreu performing as usual. With a big bonus of Jorge back behind and at the plate. The Yankees are a great team and they will show up again this year! Patience!!!!!
The next 2-3 months will see the Yankees and the entire farm system under the microscope not only by the braintrust but by other teams.
As always, other teams will look to tap the upside talent the Yankees have and expect to get something for nothing.
It will be a delicate balancing act by Cashman, “Stick” Michael, Mark Newman, et al to determine the needs should the big team surge forward soon and which players are most expendable.
If it appears that the team is spinning it’s wheels in late July, they may just decide to ride the season out and look forward to clearing the books of useless contracts and see the new wave of talent through fruition.
For some fans this is unacceptable. For others it makes straight sense.
“The game is trending younger and more athletic and the Yankees, Mariners and Tigers are trapped with rosters of guys who represented the “older” way of doing business.”
40 % of the yankees rotation and centerfield and second base had young players manning the positions so i don’t think the yankees weren’t keeping up with the trend towards younger players. the problem is that 3 of the 4 younger players stunk.
if the santana trade had been made and damon was the center fielder, gardner would likely be the fourth outfielder which would have added speed off the bench and for late defensive purposes.
cashman supporters have to admit that yesterday was a bad day for them. cashman himself is getting testy for the first time publicly about joba and the long range plan cashman has.
gene michael was in the booth for a long time during the trenton game. he basically said that the yankees are ok and that older teams like the yankees take longer to get going. in effect they are not so eager like a tampa bay out of the box.
he said the team was hurt by arod and posada’s injuries, that they were hurt by the two rookie pitchers bombing out. he said something very interesting if someone doesn’t like giambi.
he said when giambi gets going the way he can, he can hurt some teams. he implied that the yankees are really counting on giambi. and he endorses that viewpoint. now that’s very different than how the blog perceives giambi.
i don’t know what i think about giambi. in a similar number of at bats you can make a case he’s having a better offensive year than arod.
bottom line is michael is not worried yet.
oh , and he’s not too tired to answer questions about the yankees like cashman is. he was quite amiable for a lot of questions from the old red sox catcher bob montgomery. he’s very comfortable in his job and you can tell he enjoys it.
Hello all!
Beautiful day, is it not?!
Idiot fans will be talking about santana forever. they know as much about the minor league system as my dog.
they like names , big names. they think trades can not eviscirate your future because if the team stinks they just won’t watch…
all I can sy is; kemp, tartabull, rogers, whitson, and others… Most big moves or signings never work. they do not work in any sport… look at the giants they subtracted from the team 2 yrs. ago, and seemed to weather things just fine.
the Pistons have been losing pieces for a few yrs. looks like they recovered nicely form letting Ben wallace go!!!!!
teams need to build from within and add a piece here and there from outside there organization.
my opinion boston is the best team in the AL(very beatable, but tough minded team), then I think the Angels are the 2nd best team(well balanced) then, Cleveland will win the central much better pitching then there rivals, and then the Yanks should be the next best team and will make the playoffs. they will improve offensively and have a chance during the year to move Joba from the pen to the rotation. they are getting arod back in 1 game, then they will have only 1 gaping hole in the lineup and have many young arms knocking on the door. they can trade a reliever or 2 to try to help the bench or add more offensive prospects and they need to just play up to epectatiosn. I do not think abreu at 34 or damon at 34 are done.. Damon can and will play better this yr. Giambi( I do hat will hit better then 196, maybe 245) that would help a ton..
Santana talk will never stop so we need to just ignore it. Santana is a great player but it was a trade that should not happen and for once the yanks used there brain avoided the hype and made the right move by not making any move…
KEEP the faith…
SJ
Disagree with you about Andy’s pitching yesterday. The strike outs early on were terrific, and he recovered very well after the 4th. Weren’t several of those hits in the 4th jam shots and bloopers? The walks were of course on him, but there was more to it.
My question is - and I’m asking out of ignorance - is why did Andy get tagged with the loss if he only gave up 3 runs and the Yankees eventually scored 4? Shouldn’t this be Kyle’s baby?
Johnny Damon and Raul Mondesi have similar traits. Both had better than average careers at some point but by the time the Yankees got them, things went downhill.
Andy gets the loss beacuase the Yankees never tied the score after he was taken out.
You know what is annoying about Met fans, they put more stock in winning games against the Yankees, than Yankee fans do. I just want to win the game. I think they’d much rather beat the Yankees than any other team.
Nick- not all that similar, Johnny has a noddle for an arm, Raul had a cannon.
“We would be in first place instead of last if we have Santana and Wang, the truely ace and the best number2 pitcher in the business.”
Have you not watched yesterday’s game or any other game that Santana has pitched this year? He is far from dominant and certainly not looking better than Wang. I don’t want an “ace” who literally would cost us the farm and gives up 3 homers in one game to an offense that’s been scoring 1 run every 12 innings. No disrespect to our offense but it’s the truth.
Johan Santana is only 29 but his velocity is already on a steady decline compared to 2, 3 years ago. Why would you want to sign him to a 7-yr contract when at the current rate of decline his fastball could be down to 89mph by year 3?
Be careful what you wish for. Santana could be on a downward trend and all evidence indicates that Wang is on an upward trend. We would look like fools to piss off our own home-grown ace for someone who was dominant 18 months ago.
Rebecca…
Don’t worry to much, some of us have seen it before, and will again.
Nice to see you had a good time with Pete at the game…? 27/08.
JK
Thank you.
Are the Tampa Bay Rays this year a team like the Detroit Tigers were in 2006? Are they going to hang around at the top all season and pull out the Wild Card?
I agree with Back Bench regarding Andy’s game. With a little more offense he would have left the game looking good ( or at least OK). We can’t expect perfection from any of the pitchers and should place blame for losses where it belongs. Going up against Santana is no picnic and 4 runs were not expected ( by me). You are going to lose about 60 - 65 games a year. Get use to it, accept it. Go Yanks!
“Randy I…
I think that everyone reading this blog has the idea…you hate Cash! No need to keep harping on it”
old ranger-
i don’t hate him. i’m just not impressed with his ability to execute his philosophy on how to build an organization. i would actually like him to stay with the organization because i think he brings a lot to the table. there’s surely room for him in some role.
i believe that the yankees should be able to win each and every year. with the monopoly they have with the mets on new york city, the yankees make enough money to win every year. i just don’t believe they have to go through rebuilding years.
and if they did, they should have not signed mussina, matsui, arod, posada, and rivera. they should have pulled a marlins fire sale and sunk all those teams like tampa bay that are living off them. that would have at least been fun to watch.
right now i’m testy because i’m bored. the yankees are playing boring baseball. the last time they were this boring, i hopped into my volkswagon bus and headed for haight ashbury.
it’s not as bad this time, but still you can tell the team has some serious issues. there is no reason for a team with these revenues to be this bad. it is just cashman’s stubborness (and maybe hal’s too) to spend more if they need too to win while they are transitioning.
if gene michael is right, we’ll soon be in a better mood with the yankees. if not, maybe i’ll see how much volkswagon buses are going for.
Andy Pettitte has a history of being a 2nd half pitcher and although he’s had games with no run support, every bad start opens the door a little more for a Sabathia signing in the offseason.
It’s amazing how, for the most part, the discourse in the non-game threads is no much more reasonable than that in the game threads.
Randy I @ 12:05…
Ok, I see what you are getting at. I am plenty bored also, I for one, hate slow baseball and look for the days of guys like Brett etc. 27/08.
I love Andy but I cannot agree that he did fine yesterday. Sure he kept the game close in the beginning, but that’s only because Andy was somehow amazing before he started to crumple while Santana was rocky in the first two innings.
I was at the stadium and without commercial breaks and announcers, that 4th inning felt like an hour. A SP’s performance cannot be judged only by the first 3 innings. He was lucky Mets’ offense has been struggling too and couldn’t score more in the 4th. But Andy definitely deserved the loss yesterday.
*crumble*
No. It’s not too early to dub the Rays the 2008 World Champions.
heheh
heheh 
heheh 
This season Ensberg and Molina have OPS+ of 49 and 44.
They have replaced Posada and A-Rod who had OPS+ of 154 and 177 in 2007.
Two MVP’s have been replaced with scubs.
Everyone needs to hang tight until these two have returned.
“Two MVP’s have been replaced with scubs.”
- Posada was an MVP?
“every bad start opens the door a little more for a Sabathia signing in the offseason”
I hope not. Sabathia is 3-5 with a 5.47 ERA. And that when he’s now still young and “fit” (for his standard!). Fast forward to 2011, by then the signing of Sabathia could be judged the way we now judge the signing of Jason Giambi.
Pete
I’m heading to game today….could you keep us posted on some weather updates?
You could have at least fixed my typo… I meant to say SCRUBS!
yesterday showed Cashman was probably right about not committing 7 years to (and giving up talent for) santana, as Santana’s velocity was down; since that corresponds to the 2nd-half 2007 reports on Santana.
santana still looks like a good pitcher, don’t get me wrong; it just seems that he’s not the Johan Santana of 2004-2006, and it makes you wonder what the santana of 2001 will pitch like.
“Pete
I’m heading to game today….could you keep us posted on some weather updates?”
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Bronx&state=NY&site=OKX&textField1=40.8489&textField2=-73.8762&e=1
Cashman has to take credit for four things. 1- thinking that Petitite would be a solid # 2 starter, and he is not. 2-thinking Giambi was going to be a good everyday player at first and DH, he is not. 3- thinking Hughes and Kennedy would be at least serviceable as # 4 and # 5 starters. they are not. 4- Thinking that the past with Kyle Farnsworth would suddenly change and he would be at least an average pitcher, and he still is not. He has been better but then he does what he did yesterday.
it’s pretty amazing that the Yanks are still not as bad off as they were at this point last year, and last year the offense was pretty good and we had the come from behind wins at this point. plenty of time to turn things around.
however the way this offense is, i have no confidence that they can win unless out pitchers shut the other team out. Oliver Perez? should be a break, right? wrong. first of all i think he’s done well vs. the Yanks. second of all, i doesn’t matter who the hell the pitcher is this offense just plain sucks lately. doesn’t matter if he’s good, mediocre or bad, doesn’t matter if he’s a guy they see a lot or a guy they’ve never seen, doesn’t matter if he’s old or young, starter or relieve, the Yankees can’t hit em. it’s getting ridiculous.
“Ok, I see what you are getting at. I am plenty bored also, ”
old ranger-
my father is 87. he’s watched the yankees since the days of ruth when he’d ride for 20 hours in the back of the family pick up to go see the yankees in yankee stadium.
he watches every game, and even he’s bored. the yankees are sending him to bed by the fourth or fifth inning in night games. there’s no reason to not transition with some fighting spirit. if the plan is to be bad for a year, embrace it and be so bad you get good fast.
it was actually helpful to listen to gene michael last night. he gave some hope for a turn around in the next month.
Cashman has to take credit for 4 things, 1- thinking Pettitte was going to be a # 2 starter, and he is not. 2-thinking Giambi was going to be a good everyday firstbaseman DH and he is not. 3- thinking that Hughes and Kennedy would be at least serviceable as # 4 and # 5 starters and they most certainly are not. 4- thinking Kyle Farnsworth would suddenly change who he is and become at least an average pitcher. Although he has been better this year, he has days like yesterday.
Some thoughts -
1. I really think that one of the factors this season so far is the lack of amphetamines/PEDs. It can easily explain why veteran teams are lagging. Not to say all of the problems the Yanks, Tigers, Seattle are having are due to that, but I think it definitely plays into it. One more reason to emphasize youth and athleticism, as said above.
2. One of the reasons, supposedly, why the Yanks have not yet jettisoned Jason is the large amount of money he is due. I think that’s a false argument.
That money is already committed/spent. They owe him that whether he plays for them or not. The only financial question then is how much MORE money they have to spend to get production out of that lineup/roster spot. If it’s a youngster, then you’re talking the major league minimum, or thereabouts.
Would be nice if it were Shelley, but so far he’s shown no signs of answering the call. Matt LaPorta, as SJ suggested the other day? He’s seems like a high-end prospect, but we have high-end pitching prospects, and we can’t put all of them on the ML roster. Maybe a deal can be worked out.
But my point is that the money on Jason is already spent, and should not by itself factor into the discussion of whether to cut him or not.
Now, you can argue that if Jason is then picked up by the competition, he may come back to hurt the Yankees. This is where the baseball people have to make a judgment - what is the liklihood that Jason turns it around this year. I’m no baseball guru, but it’s looking less and less likely.
Right now, I think the only reason Jason is still in the lineup here is because they have no better option right now. Which doesn’t speak well of Shelley or Morgan Ensberg.
A few notes.
There is a sage saying that it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. While I think that there is very oftentimes substance here that might prove many posters guilty, I have to believe that tone is even more damning. And based on comments that are coming back, I believe I have to vote myself guilty guilty guilty. Since ignorance (in its most benign sense) is no excuse in the eyes of the law, I cannot give myself a pass by saying there is no harm in my intent - even though there definitely is not. If people are being affected by it, then “ignorance” cannot be a worthy excuse.
Someone asked yesterday why I even bother coming here, and I guess I no longer have the answer to that. I think it was for camraderie and commonality but it is apparent to me that I can’t hang well with (what I consider to be) totally off-the-wall comments and observations. And some of them truly are, and MANY MANY MANY in-game comments are nothing short of idiotic when put up against reality. HOWEVER, it is the right of every poster who posts to make any comment he or she sees fit as long as those comments do not violate the posting policy. It is obvious that a lot of fans knee jerk - but so what. Part of the passion of being a fan is doing some of that I guess. It’s what makes the highs even higher perhaps.
I guess I am basically apologizing to anyone I may have offended personally if I said anything that demeaned their posts or style of posting. SJ44 would be one. There is obviously a lot of wisdom and knowledge that goes into your posting. And even if there weren’t (and there is) you certainly have the right to be who you want to be on an open forum. That goes for everyone. Hell I’m a Yankee cheerleader. That has to drive negative people pretty crazy. (I’M JOKING, I’M JOKING, I’M ONLY SIX! - one of the funniest skits I’ve ever seen on SNL, by the way.)
Though my caveat here is that I’m fine with it because I believe they are trying and things just aren’t working, I will say that I agree with anyone who thinks that the Yankees just look pretty awful.
I guess that’s it, except to say to Chicago Dave you got it wrong when you said I wanted it both ways in terms of Kyle showing good stuff but it being short term (but me always saying not to judge someone short term.) I am never DOWN on any player in the short term, so I will always advocate giving someone a chance. It would make no sense for me to kick Kyle after one bad game. But it is obviously your right to do so if you so desire.
randy
If you hopped a vw bus for haight asbury, you must be old enough to be Cashman’s Dad.
Sabathia’s actually been pretty good from his 5th start and on (save for that one 6.3 IP/4 ER outing)
His ERA just happens to still be above 5 because his first four starts were THAT disastrous
Say what you will about Hughes and Kennedy, but Sabathia after his first 18 innings this season had a ERA of 13.5; it dropped to 10.12 after his 24th IP.
Winning and winning right is a whole new experience for the Rays.
Let’s see how they handle a little losing skid and realize that peaks and valleys are part of every season. That’s when they find out what they’re made of.
“Cashman has to take credit for four things. 1- thinking that Petitite would be a solid # 2 starter, and he is not. 2-thinking Giambi was going to be a good everyday player at first and DH, he is not. 3- thinking Hughes and Kennedy would be at least serviceable as # 4 and # 5 starters. they are not. 4- Thinking that the past with Kyle Farnsworth would suddenly change and he would be at least an average pitcher, and he still is not.”
1 - Based on Pettitte’s recent performance, was there any reason to think he’d not step up and be a good starter?
2 - He doesn’t have a choice on Jason. He basically brought in three candidates to take time away from Jason at 1B (Betemit, Duncan and Ensberg) and none have. He tried to get creative and none of it worked out. Jason’s got his flaws, but he’s contributing more than, say, Delgado right now.
3 - Again based on their performance, there was no reason not to think they’d be inconsistent but overall average or better. Is it Cash’s fault Hughes got hurt and Ian’s been mindblowingly bad AND the #1 backup plan got hurt AND the #3 backup plan got hurt? Also, EVERYONE expected this team to score more, which would have made covering for the young pitchers a lot easier. The offense is shockingly awful.
4 - I guess he figured in a 7th inning role he’d be fine. He has been, sometimes. Also…I think Girardi has been really gung-ho on Kyle. Sometimes you have to give your manager a guy he wants.
They’ve given lots of guys lots of chances to step up, and none have. Matsui’s been hitting well, but I watched him ruin a number of opportunities yesterday and look just terrible doing it. Basically…no one is doing their job offensively, though Jeter may be turning it around. But he hasn’t been getting on base nearly enough as the 2-hole hitter. Johnny and Bobby haven’t been either. So…not enough guys on base for the bigger bats, and then when they get on base, the lineup is soft at the bottom and they don’t get driven in.
It was nice to see the real Kyle Farnsworth make an appearance yesterday.
“yankee lover”:
1. it’s insane to declare Andt Pettitte can’t pitch like a #2. he pitched well yesterday, but in bad luck. he had a few bad games recently, i don’t think that merits standing out on the ledge worrying about Pettitte!
yesterday he pitched well; had a ton of bad luck in the weird 4th inning. in baseball, that just happens sometimes.
2. it’s, uh, a tad early to say Hughes and Kennedy are not going to be “serviceable as # 4 and # 5 starters.”
and judging Cashman on retaining them - that one cannot be evaluated until future seasons; keeping Hughes/kennedy/Melky over Santana is a long-term strategic decision, you can’t base it on what happens in 2008
Randy I…
Stick always is up beat, he is also a realist. The Yanks have been worse and better. Your father is a lucky man, I only go back to Joe D. and Ted W. days…also, the Mick. Good luck to your father, hopefully he’ll see the resurgence of the Yanks yet this year. 27/08.
I said it during the game yesterday that as well as Johan Santana pitched, they should list CC Sabathia as the WP.
I have major concerns about the fact that the big lefty is so BIG, but with Andy P and Moose probably moving on after this year and the questionable performance of the rookies I think that the Yanks are going to want to throw down megabucks for an ace. (and no, this is not a shot at Wanger - he is an ace too if not in the classical sense)
So bring on CC Sabathia and pray that he starts wearing his lid properly while he pitches lights out for the Yanks for 6 years at gazillions of dollars.
Looks like Karstens might be starting at SWB per Chad Jennings. It would be great if he can start doing well and put some pressure on IPK to perform.
Giambi and Damon thoughts - -
Whether Giambi is DFA’d or not, the Yankees are liable for the balance of this year’s contract plus a $5M buyout pending the announcement that the team will not excercise it’s 2009 option with him.
If he’s DFA’d and clears waivers, some AL team could pick him up for the MLB minimum and at least give some relief to the Yankees toward his 2008 contract.
Juan Miranda is on the 40-man roster so he could share 1st base with Shelley for the remainder of the season or until Cashman finds otherwise.
As for Damon, if a suitor can be found after the season, the Yankees should take what they can get if not by the 7/31 trading deadline then certainly before the 2009 season.