Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on May 22, 2008 
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Joba Chamberlain is on his way to the rotation. And oh, by the way, the Yankees won a game. Mike Dougherty has the story.
Derek Jeter was back in the lineup a day after getting hit on the hand. This notebook also has news on Chien-Ming Wang and A-Rod.
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The Yankees had little choice but to come clean on their plans for Joba last night. Otherwise Joe Girardi would look like a dope for using his set-up man two innings in an eight-run game. Unfortunately, it took the spotlight off Darrell Rasner.
Here’s all he’s done in three starts: 19 14 2 2 2 11.
Rasner looks like this year’s Aaron Small or Shawn Chacon, a guy who comes out of nowhere to provide valuable innings.
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One further though on Joba being turned into a starter: It’s a necessary move because of the status of Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte.
I think regardless of what he does this season, 2008 is the final season Mussina spends in pinstripes. He will either retire or play somewhere else.
The Yankees also have to assume Pettitte is done after this season. For two years now he has threated to retire and been sweet-talked back with a giant bag of money. Given how poorly he has pitched recently and self-inflicted turmoil he dealt with all winter, this could be it for him.
The Yankees can’t afford to go into the offseason with Wang and four question marks. They need Chamberlain prepared and ready to go for 2009 as a starter.
Phil Hughes, until proven otherwise, is an injury risk. I personally believe he will prove reliable. But until he does, you can’t assume that. Ian Kennedy also has to prove he can pitch in the majors.
In a way, the Yankees had no choice but to convert Chamberlain.
Way to point out next year Pete. Everyone thinks about right now and forgets that we will need to fill in a staff next year. Thats why I am all for a Wang/Sabathia/Joba/Hughes/??? staff in 09
Wang
Pettite
Mussina
Rasner
Joba
BYE BYE IGAWA-SAN! What do we do with his contract though?
Just remember that I expect Hughes to have his x-ray next week and then be cleared to get his arm back in shape which will take about four weeks.
Pete,
You took the wrong time to get a few days off.;)
Big ups to Rookie Rasner for keeping the launch of the home grown starting staff program from being an abject failure YTD. Great news, of course, about Joba but still…it hints at panic re 2008 and (worse) smells like Hammerin’Lil’Boss manifesting his will, an act that 30+Yr NYY fans remember well (regretably).
Pete, hope your moms enjoyed JerseyBoys, but remind her that when you take a day off work, fights break out.
I think Patterson needs to be seriously given some consideration here. I will begein to beat the dead horse….now.
He is:
On his third straight season dominating the upper minors.
Dominating while throwing lots of strikes.
Dominating while not giving up hits.
Dominating while striking guys out.
Again, it is tough to find a pitcher that has all four of those qualities on his resume that doesn’t end up pitching successfully in the major leagues.
Ohlendorf gets ONE of the four (strikes)…he has given up MORE hits than innings while stiking out well under one per inning in the minors.
JB Cox at least fills 2 since he has not given up hits and throws lots of strikes, but he doesn’t strike a ton of guys out and hasn’t done it in the upper minors consistently yet.
PATTERSON FOR PRESIDENT.
Wasn’t this the not-so-secret secret plan all along though, minus doing the stretching out in the majors? I am glad to see it happening, mainly because its nice to see the Yanks have a plan and follow through on it.
With no Moose or Andy next season, it should be one heck of a dogfight to fill the last rotation spot or two next spring!
Joe,
But with Ohlendorf don’t you think his numbers would be a little better if he weren’t getting used in 100 different ways? He isn’t a long reliever after all, and they keep throwing him out there for that.
Also, Pete, what’s up with Britton? Do they have like 3,000 options on him or something? Why keep bringing him up if you aren’t going to ever use him?
Hi Pete, I didn’t read all the comments last night, but did anyone mention that Austin Jackson had 7 RBIs for Trenton last night and that Jose Tabata hit his first AA homer? Great posts last night. Best, Jerry
Whats Joba’s inning limit this year, and can the Yankees hit it without going over? The senario I have playing in my head is one where theyre in September and in contention, if they miss the playoffs will Joba have gotten enough innings but if they make the playoffs and have a deep run, will he go dangerously over the limit. Same for Hughes, tho I suppose it wont matter since he’s injured.
Does Pete watch the same Phil Hughes everyone else has been observing? I don’t understand the love fest and blinding confidence. Is there a conflict of interest with a link to his blog?
Joba’s innings limit is under wraps, but its likely to be around 150 innings.
Scooter: Phil has all the physical tools to be a very good major league pitcher. He was outstanding in the minors (although its starting to look like both he and IPK needed another year of seasoning). I think the injuries have derailed him a bit and for some reason he has lost the will to challenge guys. Hopefully his ribs were the problem and he fixes whatever is going on between his ears (which might be nothing more than the weight of the baseball world being placed on the shoulders of a 21 year old kid). I hope he gets Ricky Vaughn glasses!
Oh, what does everyone think of this outfield in 2 years?
Jackson in left, Gardner in Center and Melky in Right… Maybe Tabata should learn to play first…
I wouldn’t mind giving Patterson a shot. But I’m guessing Melancon or Cox will be here soon (prob after the ASB) to fix that open wound. And I would still also give Gardner a shot and rest Damon or Abreu. Hopefully, the Yanks have broken out of their slump, but if not, then this could also be worth a looksee.
IPK just needs to get aggressive. Challenge hitters. He should be a good 4 or 5. (Or long man).
From what I read… Tabata just got spooked. He apparently has a higher ceiling than AJax, but AJax has definitely been able to hit his stride a lot sooner. If Tabata can get his head on straight and stop whining, he should be a damn good outfielder. But his build his leaning him to right field vs Center. Melky, Gardner, AJax and Tabata – definitely a nice conundrum to have.
ARX – Joba has a 150 inning limit this year – regular season. Post season – all bets are off.
Pete -
You need to go on every major sports talk venue today and say what you wrote above. I’m sure most of the talk will ignore the future of the Yankees starting pitching staff if this is not done. I think a lot of people are making the assumption that Pettitte will come back simply because he stated at one point he would like to be pitching in the new stadium. Likewise, I think a lot of people who’ve been impressed with Mussina’s improvements think he may came back as well. I think both of those things are possibilities, but you have to be smart and realize that maybe only one of those two return, or as you said, neither of those two return to the rotation next season.
As it is, it’s Wang, Chamberlain for sure and three question marks for next season. (And even Chamberblain, until he does it, is a question mark, really.)
I’m excited to see how all this unfolds.
And Darrell Rasner sure pitched a much-needed gem last night. I surely hope he is NOT 2008 Aaron Small/Shaun Chacon, but a new and unexpected permanent addition to the pitching staff going forward.
When it comes to Phil Hughes, one way to gauge whether the predictions match the talent is to look to the number of teams that wanted him and how prominently he has figured into trade discussions up to now, despite being off the table in most cases. There are no guarantees with young pitchers, just like there are no promises in life. He’s had nagging injuries to date, but nothing with his arm, so that’s reason to take the “injury prone” tag with a big grain of salt.
As for prospects who start off slowly, causing everyone to doubt the advance praise, I’m reminded of two NFL quarterbacks.
When Terry Bradshaw first came up as QB for the Steelers, his early results were so bad that there was talk that the Steelers should do an IQ test to see whether he had the raw material to understand the pro game. Turns out he did, although as a sportscaster he can give me a severe migraine. Phil Simms was injured a lot in the early part of his career. He lost some years and probably a few lines in the record book as a result but he went on to have some of the finest moments a QB has ever had.
When it comes to breaking in young pitchers, Yankee fans are like 50 year olds who never had a kid. Folks, they don’t arrive fully grown, walking and talking. (And that smell is called “diapers.”) But take heart, the awkward years are over before you know it. You gotta have some patience.
“Does Pete watch the same Phil Hughes everyone else has been observing? I don’t understand the love fest and blinding confidence. Is there a conflict of interest with a link to his blog?”
Did you see him pitch at all last year in the majors? It’s a small sample size but he pitched 75 innings and was league average at 21. That’s not a small feat by any means.
Have patience. Look at his minor league resume, most if not all of the pitchers who put up numbers like he has in the majors all went on to have very successful big league careers.
“most if not all of the pitchers who put up numbers like he has in the majors ”
It should say “like he has in the minors”
Murphydog,
As usual great post!
I agree that Tabata has more upside than any of the three I threw out there. But at the same time, Melky’s build suggests he won’t be playing center his entire career, and I can see him being a great defensive RF, as well as a consistent bottom of the order bat. If Gardner continues to progress with the bat, he has to play into the equation somehow, given his excellent defense and baserunning. AJ is a future star, so he has to fit into the plan somewhere.
I hope Tabata gets it together, but he is falling behind the other 2 don’t you think?
Hughes has the tools; but he is fragile.
murphydog-
i was wondering what that smell was when hughes and kennedy pitched.
you always have away with words.
i really like hughes,but he’s 21 and rasner is 27. there is no doubt that rasner is more seasoned than hughes. the red sox tend to take more time before bringing up their young pitchers. buccholz and lester are clearly older.
i would prefer they slow down hughes development by having him pitch for at least 7-8 starts in the minors while working on a third pitch. i also believe his body needs time to develop some physical maturity. something is not right with all the injuries. and body injuries may eventually affect his arm if they haven’t already.
it’s all about joba now. if he does well, the youth plan gets a shot in the arm. it would also buy time for hughes. to use your analogy, i prefer they don’t come up to the yankees until they are out of diapers.
its all good today! joba being stretched out is great news! and with the way the starters are failing lately, he might be able to do the enitre thing at the mlb level. i think olly and edwar will be able to do a decent job until melancon or someone else busts thier way into the equation.
one game doesnt turn this team around, but i’m gonna savor this one all day! big rubber game tonight!
Great post murphydog
Let’s not forget Joba may have his struggles too initially.
randy l
I see Joba’s promotion as an opportunity for the Yankees to keep Hughes in AAA for as long as necessary this season. In the long-run that would be a win-win. Kennedy, as well, may get to spend some more time in AAA. I’m of two minds on the AAA time, but there’s no doubt that there’s more freedom to really work on secondary and tertiary pitches. And, they’ll only be a phone call away if Pettitte or Mussina or whoever should falter.
Most important is the need for everyone involved (including the fans) to be flexible, to adjust to the situations with these pitchers as they develop. “Go with the flow” in other words.
do the yankees pay any attention to them scoring runs with pena at third instead of meacham?
..and about the coaches in general. long, thompson, eiland, and meacham al seem kind of like the same guy. quiet , steady, behind the scene kind of guys. is that too many coaches without much personality. there are perks having guys like zimmer or bowa around.
i think everybody’s a little too down on pettitte right now. he has always been a slow starter and then he’s always been a stud after the asb. im not ready to write him off yet. moose is a different story, he had slipped so far by last august that he had nowhere to go but up. i commend his reworking his pitch sequencing, etc. but i think its only a matter of time before the hitters adjust to what he’s doing now, its just too fine a line to pitch with the diminished stuff he has.
if neither guy is on the roster next season, they are going to have to aquire at least on dependable veteran to fill out the staff.
randy l -
Pena was at third on Tuesday night, too, when the only runs scored were on ARod’s HR. So – small sample size!
ham fighter,
there is close to 90 mil. coming off the payroll next season. I think about 18 of it is going to CC for 4 years.
way off base, Pete. converting Joba HAD to be the plan all along, and had nothing to do with Phil or Ian.
Also, these Rasner/Small comparisons have to stop. Rasner never looked like anything but a potentially pretty good pitcher out there every time, and simply got derailed by injury and overlooked for shinier-looking pieces. By contrast, Small couldn’t even get mop-up work for bad Marlin teams before coming out of nowhere. Rasner may turn out better than we all think.
3rd base coach! this is an issue on a team that has one of the lowest ba’s with risp, the 3rd base coach! hell, they could have gone the last week without anyone in the 3rd base box!
personally, i think the fact that i broke out my green on white yankees hat (with a shamrock on the bill) had more to do with yesterday than the 3rd base coach!
S.A. brings in a very valid point. Joba will not have the instant success he’s experienced as a one-inning pitcher. His fastball will likely be 93-94-95. Hitters will be able to see him much more than once per appearance, so the slider, devastating as it is, will become that much more familiar to the batter.
Joba and Phil have extraordinary stuff, but it will take more than one season to develop them as seasoned pitchers at the MLB level.
Randy also brings up a valid point about Hughes’ physical development. Ditto for Joba, who has had arm issues and weight issues.
If Joba, Phil, and Ian make up 3/5ths of the starting rotation, be prepared for a rebuilding season or two, and not a 95-100 win Season.
Randy l -
But, I will agree with you that coaches except Pena all seem to share the same demeanor. Heck, they even look alike!!
ham fighter -
It might be your lucky Yankee Irish hat, but I think it’s because I purchased a NY Yankees paperware (plates, cups, napkins) to use this weekend (not very “green” but it felt like the right impulse purchase at the time!)
I’d like to think that what people mean when they compare Rasner to Small is that the expectations for Small were not too great that year and he turned out to be quite a godsend that season. Rasner, likewise, was not expected to be a part of the rotation and has so far done a remarkable job. Other than that, the two pitchers’ careers are quite different.
“And, they’ll only be a phone call away if Pettitte or Mussina or whoever should falter.”
that’s the added bonus of having hughes or kennedy chomping at the bit to get back up. while they are improving they also are ready to go at any time.
mussina has been a pleasant surprise after a rocky start. if he can win half his games this year,it’s really all that the yankees can expect. the yankees need more from pettitte. wang is wang. joba is the wild card and what happens with him is probably a tipping point for the yankees.
if he does well, the yankees have another pitcher who can get them wins above a .500 rate. i would normally think joba is too young to have this kind of pressure put on him, but he’s got that charisma about him that makes you think he’s the exception to the rule.
the yankees are in effect betting the “business” on joba, at least as far as making the playoffs this year. i wouldn’t have put so much on a kid like joba, but now that the yankees have made that bet, i’ll be of course pulling for it to work.
a lot changes if he pulls off a first year verlander like year .
Let’s hope IPK can feed off of the teams performance last night.
rasner’s breakthrough so far makes me wonder what we might get out of jeff karstens this year. not that anyone has him on a level with hughes or joba, but he has always been seen as maybe one step ahead of rasner, and both are older, more mature and seasoned than kennedy and iak.
if karstens and rasner could just give the yankees dependable, league-average innings this year, it would allow the big 3 alot more time to develop without so much pressure.
Even if IPK struggles a bit(which I am really really hoping Does NOT happen) tonight, I am hoping the Yankees offense that we saw yesterday will not go into hiding.
sorry, i meant they are more seasoned than kennedy or hughes.
“personally, i think the fact that i broke out my green on white yankees hat (with a shamrock on the bill) had more to do with yesterday than the 3rd base coach!”
just in case, keep wearing the shamrock hat.
what about the larger issue that the yankees coaches are lacking in personality? they are the polar opposite of last years coaches.
can you imagine having a beer with long, eiland, and thompson?
why do i keep thinking of the bob newhart show?
Doreen – Where did you get the Yankees paperware? Online?
I have some friends who are Mets fans and we’re having them over soon.
doreen,
…and ppl say nobody’s doing anything to break the bad streak!
Definitly a great move. I can’t wait to see how this plays out.
I can only imagine how crazy Yankee land will be the day of Joba’s first start =]
Joe from Long Island –
Modell’s. It’s called a “Party Pack” and it has 24 plates, cups, forks and napkins. It cost $20.
ham fighter -
you also might want to pick-up the yankees vs. mets chess set. i got one for chrismas a couple of years ago, and while its worthless for chess (too hard to tell the pawns from the rooks) i have had alot of fun with the figurines. i glued the yankees manager in my car and in my house we refer to him as ‘dashboard billy’
ham fighter -
Dashboard Billy! Gotta love it.
Kennedy should have gone to school last night seeing what Darrell Rasner did and has been doing.
One more good start by Rasner should make him the serious No. 3 starter ahead of Mussina and Kennedy.
This is the time for Kennedy to step up and show what he’s made of. He must know that Horne and McCutchen will soon be lurking behind and others behind them.
Tonight could be a telling start for Kennedy.
Can’t wait for Diet Coke and Idiot today to be whining about Joba and how they will GRILL Cashman and Girardi next time they are on
WHAT ARE THEY DOING HE CAN’T START HE LOST TO MANHATTEN IN COLLEGE!!!!!!!!
“3rd base coach! this is an issue on a team that has one of the lowest ba’s with risp, the 3rd base coach! hell, they could have gone the last week without anyone in the 3rd base box!”
part of me was thinking that yankees spent so much time stuck on third maybe they should have someone interesting to talk too. it get’s lonely out there, stuck so close yet so far from home.
Kennedy was actaully better last outing. He threw one terrible pitch and it got crushed. The first HR he gave up you had to tip your cap to Iwamura. That was up and in (and a ball) and he turned on it. He just has to stay away from the big inning. That has been his problem almost every start.
I haven’t listened to any sports talk to know what anyone is saying on this move.
But someone mentioned that some dope on sny said it was a awful move.
First of all what team in thier right mind would leave a potential ace in the pen. Second what good does a lights out 8th inning guy if you can’t ever get to him?
The Yankees were 1000% right starting the transition to the starting rotation, no if’s and’s or buts about it.
This move will also put some pressure on the other pitchers (Andy, Kennedy) to get their acts together to pitch well. I am leaving Mussina and Wang out of that becuase they have pitched well this year.
Pete,
Just a comment: I’m not entirely convinced that Moose is out the door with the Yankees (yes, he just had a horrible start, but he’d had 5 very good ones before). Let’s see how the season plays out before kicking him out the door.
In re: Pettitte, yes, he might retire, but he sort of has carte blanche to come back if he wants to.
But I agree with Joba to the rotation – No. 1s and 2s don’t grow in trees, and to the extent the Yankees have too many good SPs, they can trade him for other pieces they need.
M&MD should be interesting today. Francessa will not approve this move. I’m already giggling
“there is close to 90 mil. coming off the payroll next season. I think about 18 of it is going to CC for 4 years.”
sure, and then another $18 million a year for the next 3 years after that, too.
CC already turned down $20 million for 4 years to stay in Cleveland, no way he’s testing the market to take less than that elsewhere.
this is a great day for yankees fans. arod is back, big win last night helps most of us climb back off the ledge at least for another day, and joba to the rotation.
unfortunately, momentum is only as good as the next day’s starting pitcher. here’s to hoping IPK can take a lesson from watching Rasner last night, and stay aggressive.
Of course all the naysayers of ESPN will reverse course and say taking Joba out of a set-up role is not the way to go but what they think has no relevance to the matter.
All of this was the plan in early spring training and the key was to have Mark Melancon build his arm strength and he’s right on target with elevation of 2 levels and soon to AAA. His projection to be in the Yankee bullpen by the All Star break is very much a reality and just in time for Joba to be established in the starting rotation to make a 2nd half impact.
Now for the hitting woes ……………..
Steve Phillips thinks it isn’t a good move. So the Yankees must have made the right choice.
“WHAT ARE THEY DOING HE CAN’T START HE LOST TO MANHATTEN IN COLLEGE!!!!!!!!”
LOL. I wonder how many times Russo will mention the Manhattan game today. Get ready.
i get why mike (and especially) mad dog get so much crap, and alot of it is deserved. BUT…mike francessa is a BIG (and i do mean BIG) yankee fan of longstanding. i know his knowlege of the minors is below the majority of posters here, lets give the guy some credit, he certainly is one of us when it comes to being a loyal yankees fan. last year, he refused to give in when dog had the yankees “DONE” in may, and skewered him the whole rest of the summer. i may not always agree with him, and he sometimes makes me whince with the stuff he says, but he is definatly one of us.
I don’t think the Yankees are betting on absolute results from any one or two of our young pitchers. I think the bet is that looking at our entire ‘stable’ of young arms, that we will be able to compete. Sure, Phil and Joba have the most upside and highest expectations, but Cashmans knows many great pitchers have taken years to develop. Who know, maybe Raz will turn out to be our big surprise. From Santana, Liriano, RJ and Nolan down a long list, success is not always instant for young pitching studs.
I do believe Andy will be in the SR next year, barring injury. It won’t be at $16m, but probably around $10m. Next year, Andy will be this years Moose, an experienced vet who could be our #5 if the kids are good, but possibly be better. Andy next year should be better then Moose this year. He is both good insurance and a good guy to have on a staff with so many young guns.
I just cant see Moose coming back next season, given the options in the system who would be another year closer to providing innings on the cheap.
andy’s an interesting call… he’s expressed interest in pitching in the new stadium next season, but you cant think that Cashman will really want to offer him a multi-year deal.
i think if Pettitte agrees to a one year deal for about what he’s making this year, as long as he’s healthy, he’ll be back for one more.
I don’t want to count chickens before they hatch, I don’t like to think too far ahead. But if they can pull out a win tonight, automatically the situation brightens. They will have won 2 out of their last 3 and taken a series. You can do nothing about what went before, but you can take it from here, and that (2 of 3) would be something to build upon.
“Of course all the naysayers of ESPN will reverse course and say taking Joba out of a set-up role is not the way to go but what they think has no relevance to the matter.”
dont forget Boomer and Carton on WFAN this morning, too. they’re on record as it being an awful decision.
If the Yankees have the horses, Cashman will not be sentimental about bringing back either Andy or Mussina. See, Bernie Williams. Andy and Mike will only be back if they are needed. IMO.
i don’t think the analysis of Pettitte’s performance is rational. he’s had bad stretches almost every year. and his most recent performance was actually pretty good, IMO. anyway, it is way to small a sample to speculate that “how he has pitched recently” would impact how either the Yankees or Pettitte will plan for 2009.
but certainly his future is always questionable in terms of whether he’ll retire, since he seems to think about it every year.
its the easiest thing to do, blast the yankees for moving joba. he is doing a great job where he is and its extremly unlikely he will put up anywhere near the same #’s in his first 12 mlb starts. the earliest he could prove them wrong might be by mid-season next year, which in tv land is 2 1/2 eternities. and of course, nobody will ever call them on it, because they will be far too busy making stupid prognostications about next year’s crop.
“Wang/Sabathia/Joba/Hughes/???”
That ??? better be a lefty. It really hurts that once Pettitte is gone they will need a lefty pitcher. With the short porch at Yankee Stadium, a lefty is a must.
Sabathia is lefty. That is part of his intrigue in Free Agency.
I agree with those who think Ohlendorf could thrive in the 8th inning instead of getting up in the first inning one game, fifth the next, seventh two days later. Joba needs to start. Starters will ALWAYS be more valuable than anything other than a dominant closer.
Be patient with Jose Tabata and Austin Jackson. Tabata is the younger player in AA ball and won’t turn 20 till August. Austin Jackson also has a chance to be special, but neither is likely to be ready til 2010.
Yanks need a RH bat and LH reliever ASAP… a package of prospects to Pittsburgh for Marte and Nady/Bay would make a lot of sense. It would have include Alan Horne but it would be worth it for this year and next.
Joba and other moves could very well put a damper to Kei Igawa being the stud starter of the Yankee pitching staff.
His neck must be sore from watching every prospect in sight passing him by to the point of finally seeing his season end as a mop up man for the Single A Tampa Yankees.
His interpreter has already heard him call Darrell Rasner an a.. *%@#*&^! in Japanese and Alan Horne will soon be called the same.
He probably doesn’t realize that his AAA teammates are calling him a big time roster clogger.
looking at how so many of the tv and radio personalities are generally of the type that don’t like the yankees – i think there constant chatter about how bad a move it is for joba to go to the starting rotation is because they are afraid of the success he can bring.
when phillips, who hates the yankees says that its a bad move – maybe he means for the mets.
id be willing to sign sabbathia for 4 years at a very high salary in order to stay out of a 6 or 7 yr contract. dont think he’d take it, but a guy with all those innings on his arm the past few years is a terrible risk on a 6 yr deal.
i see them trading for a lefty, maybe oswalt, who would have 3 yrs/$45M plus a $16M club option left on his contract. maybe someone else, certainly we arent going to hold onto ALL of our young RH pitchers, and gardner looks very much like a nice NL trading chip.
Oswalt is right handed
and Oswalt is currently out injured, i believe.
Oswalt also doesn’t want to play for the Yankees, nor would I personally want him.
duh, i’m an idiot as he is on my fantasy team. i was thinking about veterans to fill the moose/pettitte void and i fixated on oswalt for one.
Rob Neyer states
“I suspect that most Yankee fans have never heard of Peter Abraham (I hope I’m wrong). But Abraham, who covers the Yankees for the Lower Hudson Journal News and also writes frequently for their web site, has become my go-to guy for breaking Yankee news.”
For the rest of the story quotes Peter twice but you will need ESPN insider to view.
http://tinyurl.com/57su7b
Since I stumbled on your website in April 2007, you have also been my go to guy for Yankee news. So it great to see others in the business give you credit for all your hardwork.
oswalt left his last start with a pulling sensation in his hip, he threw his bp session the other day and said it felt fine and he is starting today vs. philly.
see i do know something!
Yanks need a RH bat and LH reliever ASAP… a package of prospects to Pittsburgh for Marte and Nady/Bay would make a lot of sense. It would have include Alan Horne but it would be worth it for this year and next.
………………………………………………….
Excellent points 86W183 and as June/July approach, this could be reality. In doing so, it could solve 3 problems. If Jason Bay can play 1st base, and Brett Gardner called up, it may have to include the popular Shelley to the Pirates along with others. Marte of course would be the elusive LH in the bullpen.
This could also grease the skids for Damon going elsewhere. If memory serves correct, Nady can also play some 1st base.
btw, when oswalt left his last start he had already thrown 110+ pitches.
Before I deem Moose expendable and anoint Raz the Yankees’ 2009 #4 or #5 starter, I’d like to see how the league adjusts to Raz after a couple of more outings.
Moose’s last start/tantrum/meltdown aside, I see enough interesting things out of him this year to leave open the possibility that Moose may complete his journey to Moyer-vana. If he does, he could be a rubber-armed #4 or #5 innings eater whose W-L doesn’t much matter.
I’m inclined to believe that Pettitte is more done than Moose, due to Andy’s oft-mentioned desire to be home and/or his not so much discussed elbow issues. If Pettitte is gone and the Yanks also cut ties with Moose they’ll have Wang, Hughes, Joba, IPK and maybe Rasner (or some other kid) in 2009, barring a trade or FA acquisition. Even assuming a Sabathia-like pick up, IMO they’ll still need a reliable #4 or #5 who can eat innings while the kids ramp up their innings, overcome the bumps and fight for rotation spots. It would be a mistake to cut Moose if he is in fact becoming the very pitcher they will need next year.
i would imagine Marte and Nady are definately get-able, but you know the pirates would hold out for a stockpile of talent.
if you can get them on a reasonable deal, it would be worth looking into.
i dont believe that Cashman would be looking to include Horne in a deal, though. Marquez and McCutcheon? prob more realistic.
i dont see rasner pitching this well all season for sure, but he shouldnt need to. if he could just give us #4 type numbers (that is keep us in games for 6 innings 3-4 runs) thats all we can ask of him. if karstens or horne could come up and give us similar #’s, it would be a HUGE help in developing our younger guys, and then at the end of the season rasner and horne/karstens could be valuable trading chips.
GO JOBA !!!!
GO RASNER !!!!
Last Year;
Jeff K. 11.05 1-4 w-l
Raz 4.01 1-3 w-l
Both pitched better than the stats show, and both got injured. They were thought of as the best we had at the time. This year, they were pasted over for the big 3. They are journeymen pitchers and should do ok…not great. As the team starts to put up more runs, one can do more with the young pitchers, without losing games. If they have the pressure of having to pitch a one/two run game taken off, they can relax a just pitch their game…maybe even win. 27/08?
New York Yankees, major league crapshooting at its best.
Anyone know anything about this guy Al Aceves the Yanks signed out of the Mexican League? He was dominant in High A, though old for that league. (25) He was promoted to Trenton and pitched 7 shutout innings in his first start the other day.
Personally, I think both Pettitte and Moose are done after this season.
Both guys are too shaky to invest 11-16 million bucks a year in, even if its a one year deal.
Andy is not taking a paycut to come back. Unfortunately, unless he really turns it around, he’s no longer a 16 million dollar a year pitcher.
Moose? He’s exceeded expectations but, let’s see how the league adjusts to his new pitching style. Still gotta make 30 starts a year and eat innings and that ain’t easy at 39.
JMO but, the Yankees are going “all in” on either Tex or CC next year. Not both.
They aren’t getting bogged down with two long term deals. A primary reason why they are in last place today.
They will go for one and I think it will be CC. You put CC and Wang, two major innings eaters, at the top of the rotation, followed by Joba and Hughes (all 4 under 30) and you have something special.
Its still a game of pitching.
They can package a few of the younger arms for a first baseman. Young pitching is a huge commodity in the game today and the Yankees have a lot of it.
Being able to get a solid, cost controlled first baseman shouldn’t be difficult in the off-season.
This is the last year of the failed “all star at every position” garbage.
They are going back to their roots and re-tooling the team as it was during the Dynasty Years.
Pitching, defense and a solid, balanced lineup.
They have enough stars (Jeter, Arod, Posada, Rivera, Wang, Joba, etc), they need grinders. Tough outs, tough guys.
That’s lacking on this team right now and that will change for next season.
does anyone believe that pitching afraid to make a mistake due to any possbility of getting it back,changes a pitchers mindset even when they insist it doesn’t?
“Both pitched better than the stats show, and both got injured.”
It just felt like the team was snakebit. All these muscular injuries keeping Wang and Moose (and Karstens) out early, and then Pavano (obviously) went down, and then the Rasner and Karstens BOTH got taken out by comebackers in the first inning within a week or two of each other.
personally, i’m pretty satisfied that using ollie, edwar, hawkins and farns will work pretty well, not as good as the farnsjobamo has worked so far, but well enough. if and when melancon or whoever come to join the party, all the better.
every pitcher in the organization can see the opportunity before them. its gotta be stoking theier competetive fire to know that moving from trenton to the big ballyard is right there for the taking. all it takes is a few of those guys to grab the brass ring and not let go to solidify this pitching staff, and it’s already started with rasner.
NEXT!…step right up and have your shot at the show!
Hey Johan !
Betcha you didn’t know that so much turmoil existed in Metland. You ain’t seen nuttin’ yet. Minaya has little farm system to work with and you will wing it almost alone.
How do you stand the clubhouse headcases ?
Rasner has been solid through each of his 4 brief MLB seasons — 3.53 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, .244 BAA. He’s been solid every chance he’s been given.
I’m thrilled that Joba is going to be in the rotation.
That said I want to emphasize the fact that he is going to struggle coming back.
He hasn’t been throwing his curve or change much since coming up to the majors.
He’s going to need some time to get the feel back for both pitches, especially the change. He’ll need to get the kind of feel back for those pitches that will enable him to throw them in different counts consistently rather than simply as “show me” pitches which is how he was using them in the pen.
He’s also going to need some time to rebuild his arm strength.
And of course on top of that he’s going to have the usual growing pains any 22 pitcher will have.
That said, this is absolutely the right move and I like how the Yankees are being flexible in their approach.
With an innings cap of 150 coming into the season I’d of guessed Joba wouldn’t have been able to make more than 15-18 starts.
But given how bad the team has been he just hasn’t thrown many innings. So they’ve accelerated the plan to get him into the rotation – he’ll be making more starts than expected.
What I also like is how the team is operating in a coordinated, unified fashion. It’s really, really refreshing to see.
What I mean by that is that transitioning Joba is the central focus – but to support that move there have been very organized, coordinated moves up and down the organization.
Specifically, promoting Melancon quickly (while still getting him innings – love the way they threw him for 3 innings in his last appearance). And of course promoting Robertson, Cox and McCuthchen.
We haven’t spoken about Horne much but he’s coming back to throw probably next week. He had a great spring. He’s going to be a factor.
Finally, don’t write off Hughes. He’s going to be very, very good.
“Being able to get a solid, cost controlled first baseman shouldn’t be difficult in the off-season.”
You think??? Dodgers won’t move Loney. Reds won’t move Votto. Youklis, Adrian Gonzalez, Kotchmann???? Nope.
So who? Ryan Garko? Injury plagued Nick Johnson (is he still cost controlled?)?
I also agree that after this year Moose will retire just hearing some of his recent interviews most especially last weeks interview on WFAN (you can listen on theri web site he is a GREAT interview) he strikes me as the type of guy who is not going to hang around. He is too smart for that.
gotta be killing karstens that he hasnt been available to pitch so far. he’s fought his way up through the system a couple of times and injuries have knocked him back down each time. this season, when a rotation spot is crying to be filled, he hasnt been able to take the ball. now just as he finishes his latest rehab, he’s been passed by rasner, kennedy and possibly horne, and joba is about to take another rotation spot, while he hasnt made a start yet (looks like monday might he his first.)
i dont have crazy expectations for the guy, but i sure hope he gets his chance to at least be the long man/spot starter and show what he can do.
“Yanks need a RH bat and LH reliever ASAP… a package of prospects to Pittsburgh for Marte and Nady/Bay would make a lot of sense. It would have include Alan Horne but it would be worth it for this year and next.”
Not sure if I agree with this on two counts.
1) I am a little hesitant giving up Horne but it might not be so bad if we can get Marte.
2) Where in the outfield would you put Nady? Bay wouldn’t come so easy.
“You think??? Dodgers won’t move Loney. Reds won’t move Votto. Youklis, Adrian Gonzalez, ”
He didn’t say a potential All-Star young 1B. He said solid and cost-controlled. Solid fielder who hits for decent average, takes his walks and has some pop. That’s a much lower bar than you’re setting, I think.
I still don’t know who that is, though
LaPorta is blocked by Prince Fielder, but I don’t know if you could feel good assuming he’ll be your starting 1B in 2009, not without a solid backup plan.
Fredo,
Things change in every off-season. You look around AAA at guys who are blocked elsewhere. At the major league, teams needs shift constantly.
They can find a first baseman in the right deal. They don’t necessarily need to play Mark Teixiera 200 million dollars because there aren’t first basemen available.
For example, you think Shawn Casey could have helped this team this year? He was available and the Red Sox didn’t even need a first baseman. He’s helped them win games this year.
Again, you don’t need stars at every position. This team won World Series with the likes of Luis Sojo and Jose Vizcaino playing second base and Chad Curtis playing left field.
Why? They had pitching, defense, role players, and the right mix between stars and reserves.
That’s what they are looking to get back to being again.
For those eagerly anticipating Mike and Dog today, Girardi is usually on the show on Thursdays at 5:05. That would be worth a listen. Gives them 4 hours to work themselves into a lather over Joba before Joe steps in against them.
“2) Where in the outfield would you put Nady? Bay wouldn’t come so easy.”
Nady’s played 1B a fair amount over the years. I figure he’s not stellar on D, but he won’t kill you. If he plays 1B a lot and spells Abreu and Damon in the corners, that’s a pretty good number of ABs. Thing is he’s been so hot in the early going, you might be buying high. And I also read they wanted to hang on to him until the break, so you’d probably have to overpay to get him early.
“LaPorta is blocked by Prince Fielder, but I don’t know if you could feel good assuming he’ll be your starting 1B in 2009, not without a solid backup plan.”
Not to mention it would cost the Yankees plenty. Would have to be a high end prospect rather than a Horne, McCutchen type.
pat, MMD always get worked into a lather and threaten to skewer joe g. then turn into paper tigers when he’s on and play all buddy-buddy.
The Brewers will open a corner OF spot for LaPorta when he is ready.
‘Again, you don’t need stars at every position. This team won World Series with the likes of Luis Sojo and Jose Vizcaino playing second base and Chad Curtis playing left field.”
Which is why I mentioned Garko, who is a decent bat, right handed, and can play the position. Tribe might be content to go with a combination of Aubrey and VMart at 1B. Who knows?
“For example, you think Shawn Casey could have helped this team this year? He was available and the Red Sox didn’t even need a first baseman. He’s helped them win games this year.”
Perhaps, but he’s generally a lefty singles hitter. I don’t think signing him would have made much sense for the Yankees. I know he banged out a bunch of doubles in April and hit well for the Sox until he got hurt, but it’s really easy to say a move would have been good in hindsight.
“You think??? Dodgers won’t move Loney. Reds won’t move Votto. Youklis, Adrian Gonzalez, Kotchmann???? Nope.
So who? Ryan Garko? Injury plagued Nick Johnson (is he still cost controlled?)?”
My pick is Kendry Morales of the Angels. The Yankees and Angels have done trades before and Morales is stuck behind Kotchman.
I don’t think he’ll be spectacular or anything but watching those Angels hitters they are all pests and they play good defense.
Re: Joba, I agree with CB. He will have the usual struggles starters have over the course of the season.
But, make no mistake. He’s a starting pitcher. He even pitches like a starter in relief. One reason why the league was catching up to him a bit this year.
For example, in the game he imploded against the Indians, they knew everytime Joba shook off Molina, it was to throw the slider. So, they laid off it, got on base, and the rest is history.
You know where Cleveland picked that up? From their advance scout who was in Chicago watching the Yankees play and he picked it up in Joba’s outing in the rain soaked game.
Watching him pitch in the minors last year, it was amazing how his velocity and stuff held up through the later innings.
He’s the real deal. A true #1, #2 starter.
Folks just have to be patient and allow it to happen.
Let’s face it. As currently constructed (with Joba in the 8th inning), the Yankees aren’t winning the World Series this year. So, moving him isn’t that big a deal.
This is the PERFECT time to transition him into the rotation. You get him the innings and the work needed to grow into a top starting pitcher and you have the depth in the organization to fill the relief role.
At the same time, it actually makes the team better. Thereby increasing its chances of winning.
For once, its a “perfect storm” in the right way for the Yankees. The perfect time to put him in the rotation.
ham
usually but they have had some heated interviews with Cashman.
just wanted to say how pshyched i was to see jeter out there last night! WHAT A STUD!
i think the # of guys who would refuse to sit out after what happened the night before could be counted on one hand.
suzyn waldman said when she asked him after tuesday’s game if he thought he’d broken a bone, he said maybe, but im playing tomorrow night either way.
dont see that invisible C coming off that uni for years to come!
“I also agree that after this year Moose will retire just hearing some of his recent interviews most especially last weeks interview on WFAN (you can listen on theri web site he is a GREAT interview) he strikes me as the type of guy who is not going to hang around.”
I don’t know if he’ll be back with the Yankees but I think he’ll be back. If he finishes the season less than 40 wins away from 300 I think he’ll go to a NL team and go for 300 wins.
If Moyer can still win with an 80 MPH fastball then Moose can definitely still win in the NL.
I wonder if this is the time frame they wanted or if the Yankees recent struggles are pushing up the conversion…
I thought they might have aimed for this to start towards the end of June… Then bring him back as a starter rigth after the all-star break.
Not that I’m complaining, I think the sooner he gets some starts under his belt, the better for him and the Yankees.
Morales is a guy who could fit that role. A good example.
The Brewers are trying LaPorta in RF but he can’t play RF. In fact, he’s pretty bad in right.
If they can sign Fielder, they have a valuable asset in LaPorta on the trade front. If they can’t, they can move Fielder and have LaPorta to play first.
He’s eventually going to be a first baseman or DH. His OF instincts are really bad.
If you have an OF of Braun in left and LaPorta in right, you better hope your offense scores 10 runs a game. That would be, far and away, the worst two corner OF’s on one team in baseball.
I doubt the Brewers see that as their long term solution in the OF.
“Not to mention it would cost the Yankees plenty. Would have to be a high end prospect rather than a Horne, McCutchen type.”
Horne is a pretty high-end prospect. It’d have to be a package, it’s true. Maybe Horne and a Zach McAllister or something like that. A AAA arm with upside and an A-ball arm with lots of upside. But LaPorta’s got lots of upside too, and the Yanks have a dearth of hitting prospects, especially at the upper levels of their system.
Garko’s hit really poorly this year, though he’s taking some walks. He might be a decent buy-low candidate, though it does look like he strikes out a lot. If he rebounds over the course of the season, I might try to pick him off as my plan B or C behind some guys who might be blocked in AAA or some such.
“Perhaps, but he’s generally a lefty singles hitter. I don’t think signing him would have made much sense for the Yankees. I know he banged out a bunch of doubles in April and hit well for the Sox until he got hurt, but it’s really easy to say a move would have been good in hindsight.”
Whozat, considering that they have two 1B’s who can’t even hit singles and can’t play the position, Casey would have been an OK addition. Good clubhouse presence too as I understand it. Of course, having Casey wouldn’t have carried much weight for Boston if Youklis didn’t have the position flexibility he seems to possess. He got his AB’s as a result of the 3B’s injury.
Still too early to get serious about trading moves but the nagging 1st base / left field question lingers and continues to drag this team down.
The aforementioned thoughts of a deal with Pittsburgh has a nice ring to it.
Xavier Nady is a very serviceable corner OF / 1B option and along with Damaso Marte, fills needs.
Cashman has 6-8 weeks to evaluate the farm system and float the idea of moving Damon to any potential suitor as trading chips. He also gets more time for Brett Gardner to progress.
this may be a stupid question, but with the demand for instant replay becoming a topic twice in a week, what would stop a home team from showing replays on the big screen/scorboard once the manager goes out to start an arguement? the umps obvoisly talked it over last night. how could they not overturn the call if they saw the ball bouncing off the yellow steps in the corner of their eye, during their meeting?
plus the brewers have Corey Hart to play RF in Milwaukee, who is himself a very underrated but productive player. He’ll hit .280/25/85 with 20 SBs a season.
now, if the Brewers are set on LaPorta in RF, i’d gladly take Hart to play RF if/when Abreu leaves.
I agree that its to early to be talking seriously about trades…
Lets see if this group can get it together first, and lets see who the minors produce in the next couple months.
Casey would have been an excellent addition to the team. But, when you have 21 million committed to one guy, you are loathe to not give him every chance to be productive.
Another example of how using money poorly can bite you in the butt.
This is where scouting comes in. When you are looking to fill a need (first base) in a cost effective, yet productive, manner, this is where scouting comes into play.
There are guys out there who can play. You just gotta find ‘em.
Good teams with good scouting departments, do just that.
“Horne and a Zach McAllister or something like that”
Sure the Brewers would say Horne and Betances, but you’re in the neighborhood with that.
However, as someone pointed out, the Brewers may end up trying to move Fielder instead (far more costly….especially if goes back on meat)and give 1B to LaPorta.
Morales is an interesting thought. Halos have nowhere for him.
“Morales is a guy who could fit that role. A good example.”
I know a lot of Angels play good D, but I don’t think Morales does. Not to say he mightn’t be a solid trade-target, but to be clear about what I think they’d be getting. Like most Angels hitters, he makes a lot of contact, so he won’t be a high-OBP guy. Good bottom of the order hitter, adequate D. That’s what I think. Certainly another name to add to the pile.
What of Juan Rivera as an RF option? His D isn’t so great, right? If Abreu doesn’t get back to his high-OBP ways, I think they have to go in another direction. Damon, Melky, Rivera with liberal sprinklings of Gardner to improve the D could work.
Don’t know if this is a good idea – but I’d like to see the yankees look into Andy LaRoche.
I have no idea if he’s available – but for whatever reason it seems like the Dodgers have done everything possible to screw up his development. And it just seems like for whatever reason they don’t fully believe in him.
The Dodgers are wasting his talent by jerking him around (and that was going on way before Torre got there).
I think he’s at the low point of his value – he’s getting older and already had the labrum surgery.
I don’t know if LaRoche has ever played first and I know the team has tried way too much to stick guys at first.
But he’s a right handed bat and I think he’s going to have a good pro career somewhere. It seems like it’s not going to be with the Dodgers. Just a thought.
Its definitely too early to talk trades right now.
However, teams are setting the groundwork to see what could be available.
At this point, the Yankees needs are obvious.
Some of those needs can be filled from within. Others will have to be filled (whether in season or the off-season) going outside the organization.
It takes two to make deals and nowadays, teams get tougher and tougher to deal with in making in season deals. Nobody wants to give up anything unless the deal is very lopsided.
Not exactly the best way to do business.
CC turned down 4 years 80 Mil deal from Indians already. No way he is going sign for 3-4 years. He will be looking in the range of what Santana got. I think he will be getting a better deal than Santana 8 Years 160 Mil as Sabathia is a free-agent and there will be bidding. Remember Santana was not a free-agent. Also Sabathia’s CY young performance is more recent than Santana’s.
one thing that has gotten no play yet is jorge. just because he’s taken a month off doesnt mean he’s going to be able to catch when he comes back, his shouler is messed up. remember that he has rested it twice so far and the last time, he blew it out on 2 throws to 2nd base. there’s certainly a chance that he will not be able to catch regularly this season even if he doesnt need surgery.
this might be where we convert him into a 1b, and go looking for a starting catcher instead (molina is not an everyday guy). i know that jorge is dead-set against leaving the tools behind, but it is probably his long-term future and it would really help the shoulder situation. he cant be worse in the field than giambi, and he certainly hits well enough to make up for his not really being a 1bman. one thing, though, if we go that route, we need a ‘glove man’ to back him up, just like we do now. cash’s biggest roster mistake this season imo.
“Don’t know if this is a good idea – but I’d like to see the yankees look into Andy LaRoche.”
Wonder whether the Dodgers are completely sold on DeWitt. He’s exceeded expectations so far with the big club. Unless either he or LaRoche can play 2nd, one of them will probably have to be moved.
SJ stop w/ the LaPorta thing, I want this guy on my roster but I just don’t see Milwaukee giving him up, I’d trade Ohlendorf + Kennedy for that guy to be my next 1B
“Casey would have been an excellent addition to the team.”
yeah, in retrospect. But, did you look at the Yankees in the offseason and say “you know what this team needs? Another lefty bat, but one without much power…”
If Casey’s split against lefties was better, I’d agree. But it isn’t. Ensberg’s is. He’s been terrible, it’s true. But based on anything you could have known coming into the season, I think Ensberg was the right choice.
Joba doing a transition to starter shouldn’t take too long seeing as that’s all he was prior to last year.
With Dave Eiland’s help he’ll need to change his mound demeanor, tempo, and approach using his entire arsenal but at different intervals as a game progresses.
Hitters will make adjustments for their 2nd at bats and so will Joba in giving different looks.
Jorge and Jose’s pitch calling will be very important.
NYY:
Not sure Sabathia gets more than Santana but you are 100% right on the years. Yanks won’t be alone in that bidding. I’d expect the Dodgers to be in it. Mets too.
He may get more than Santana after all.
SJ,
What are your thoughts on the upcoming draft?
It looks a lot thinner than the past 2 years. I don’t think the chances of a really high end talent (Hosmer?) falling to the yankees due to signability.
One guy who fits that bill is Tanner Scheppers from Fresno State. I’m suprised that his draft stock has fallen so far so quickly. Stress fractures aren’t that serious. It is his shoulder but in many ways that a better injury than anything related to an elbow. Perhaps people are worried that the fracture was related to bad mechanics.
I could see the yankees taking a chance on him given their past record on drafting despite “injury concerns.” First round may be too high for him as he could be available later.
Tons of first baseman – which do you like?
CC won’t get Santana money.
One of the problems is, his market will be VERY small.
Boston won’t pay that kind of money. Neither will the Mets, since they have Santana.
The Dodgers? Frank McCourt (as Joe Torre found out with Santana) ain’t doin’ it.
The Angels? Nope.
The Sabathia Market is currently shaping up like the Giambi Market did in the ’01 off-season.
One team can do it and has the need to do it. The Yankees.
Do they bid against themselves, as they did in the Giambi negotiations?
Does CC take less to stay in Cleveland or go to another team? Does he get big, yet fair money from the Yankees and go to NY?
That’s to be determined.
I think there will be a bigger bidding war for Tex than CC. I also think Tex will get a lot more money than CC on the open market. Its why I would venture away from the Tex market.
Let the Mets overpay for him. He’s a very good player. He’s not a difference maker. For 20+ million a year, you gotta be a difference maker, IMO.
Fredo Corleone
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:21 am
NYY:
Not sure Sabathia gets more than Santana but you are 100% right on the years. Yanks won’t be alone in that bidding. I’d expect the Dodgers to be in it. Mets too.
He may get more than Santana after all.
Also Sox will definetly get involved just to drive the price up.
“With Dave Eiland’s help he’ll need to change his mound demeanor, tempo, and approach using his entire arsenal but at different intervals as a game progresses.”
So…he’ll need to go back to what he’s been doing for years.
It’s true he’ll need to lean on his catchers for patterns, though. If he can execute their plan consistently, he’ll be fine.
Fredo,
In the strange world of Ned Colletti – I really think they like Dewitt.
It seems that they’re willing to pull the rug out from under LaRoche for any reason possible.
Bonxbyte:
I’m guessing it takes close to a month to have him starting. Beyond needing to be stretched out, he needs time to get his feel back on the change-up. Nothing plus about that pitch right now. I think he’s 10 months removed from starting as they prepared him for moving to the big club pen in July of last year.
SJ44 – Jason Bay and Xavier Nady are interesting names. Do you think it would take much from the Yanks to get either by the trading deadline? Rather than waiting until the season is over.
the one thing Joba has to remember is don’t get caught in an Edwar Ramirez situation, throwing breakings balls as a swing and a miss pitch when you have that fastball and slider, he has the weapons he just has to remember don’t let the hitter recognize your breaking stuff use that fastball to keep them honest, Pedro was one of the best at doing this.
God bless that guy I hated him as a Red Sox but he actually helped Edwar in the offseason.
I’m in full agreement with Brandon for getting LaPorta. If it takes Kennedy and Ohlendorf, so be it. Eventually some pitching pieces will have to used in deals and the farm system has no high rising 1st baseman any time soon.
Tino Martinez can take all the time necessary to make a decent 1st baseman out of LaPorta.
speaking of changing tempo, i hope someone has noticed how slowly kennedy has gotten out there and made a correction. last season, he worked fast and the d was usually crisp behind him. this year he takes an eternity to throw. alot of what goes on between pitcher/batter is psychological and when you’re taking forever to pitch, the batter has to feel like he’s scared to pitch to me, while working fast gives the batter less time to think. working fast also gives that impression that you are in charge out there. i know its not THE answer to his problems, but i think it contributes.
Ohlendorf and Kennedy would not get us LaPorta. I think we are currently living in fantasy land as far as LaPorta being traded in the near future.
“The Yankees can’t afford to go into the offseason with Wang and four question marks.”
That doesn’t change even if Joba is in the rotation. He’ll be a question mark just like the other unproven rookies. Plus by doing so you create another question mark in the bullpen. Who will set up then?
Moving Joba to the rotation is a very bad decision. You can tell that Girardi and Cashman don’t want to do it, at least not this year. Hank is driving this train. Too bad Hank doesn’t know anything about baseball.
saucY,
I didn’t see the play live, just the highlight. Did they rule a legit homerun a double?
This is actually the third time in the week, two involving us and the third involving a NL team on the same day as the Delgado homerun.
Re: Rasner, Hughes, and young pitching. Some are calling Rasner a rookie. He is not. He’s been up and down several times. I was down on him because he didn’t particulary impress me the times he came up. But I have to tell you that he’s got my attention now. He’s dealt with injuries, demotions, and designations quite well. He’s “anchored” the rotation in a way, as one of the steadiest and most reliable pitchers on the staff. He’s done it with poise and control, giving up very few free passes.
Re: Hughes. He frustrated many of us to no end, but if he bounces back like Rasner he’ll make all of us forget about Rasner. Hughes was brought up too early, but it wasn’t by choice (thanks, Carl). I think we forget (even though we’re reminded so often) just how young Phil is. He’s got the goods, we know that.
Is the plan to stretch Joba out in the Bronx? It may not be the most correct way, but it certainly is the most beneficial.
I hope we can keep the momentum going a little today. Whatever you do, Joe, don’t bring Ross in the middle of an inning. He couldn’t put a candle out, let alone a fire. Ross is good, but I kinda miss Bruney in that role.
“I’m in full agreement with Brandon for getting LaPorta. If it takes Kennedy and Ohlendorf, so be it.”
It’s going to take some guys with more upside than that, I think.
“I think he’s 10 months removed from starting as they prepared him for moving to the big club pen in July of last year.”
They also prepared him as a starter this spring.
it might take more RER, LaPorta most likely is a franchise 1B, he’s the equivalent of a lotto pick in the NBA.I’d even go Marquez,Kennedy and Ohlendorf.
“You can tell that Girardi and Cashman don’t want to do it, at least not this year. Hank is driving this train.”
Wow. You couldn’t be more wrong. They have been saying from the beginning that the plan was to move him back to a starting role during this season. Now they’re doing exactly what they’ve always said they planned to do.
“The Dodgers? Frank McCourt (as Joe Torre found out with Santana) ain’t doin’ it.”
Disagree. The Santana thing was as much about prospects they’d have to let go as anything (See: Yankees and Red Sox). Sabathia as an anchor of a staff featuring young up and comers Billingsley and Kershaw would set them up for sometime.
They’ve got a ton coming off the books with Kent, Garciaparra, Lowe, Penny (they may pick up his $9M option) and Furcal all up after this year and A. Jones after ’09.
“I’m in full agreement with Brandon for getting LaPorta. If it takes Kennedy and Ohlendorf, so be it.”
I don’t think Kennedy and Ohlendorff is getting you Matt Laporta.
SJ
How good is the kid at UM that worked out with Alex this off season?
“I don’t think Kennedy and Ohlendorff is getting you Matt Laporta.”
realistically I know that’s not enough I’m just throwing scenerios out there
I’ll buy into that idea Brandon. If Milwaukee is in the NL Central hunt in July, it will be pitching they’ll need and the Yankees have some pieces to offer. The next 6-8 weeks will set the stage.
A quick note about Mike Mussina’s future plans –
John Feinstein who wrote a book with Moose and Glavine about last season was being interviewed on the radio down here and strongly suggested that Moose was going to hang it up after this season. Moose’s kids are 8 and 10 years old and he wants to be home while they are still young enough to enjoy the years. (I haven’t had teenage kids, but I think you understand the drift)
Moose seemed to support this in his comments on the FAN interview which was excellent.
Feinstein was very complimentary of Moose as a good, if somewhat difficult guy – also said that Moose had come to terms with the fact he wouldn’t reach 300 wins.
i dont know that the dodgers plan is (likely torre is just waiting for nomar to come back and take a young player’s spot) but i can tell you that the dodgers announcers are totally sold on dewitt. the praise is gushing and believe me vin scully is as tied into the organizational thinking as anybody in dodgerland.
LaPorta is a top 5 prospect now. Those guys very rarely get traded.
It would be great – but it’s not likely unless Hughes was included, IMO.
And if the Brewers do sign Fielder and decide to trade LaPorta they are going to use him as the centerpiece to acquire a high end pitcher with major league experience in a Haren like deal. They are trying to compete now.
Prospect for prospect deals with guys at LaPorta’s level are very rare. That’s why the Young Garza deal was so unusual.
“How good is the kid at UM that worked out with Alex this off season?”
Yonder ? he is a future power LHB at 1B 20 HR 90 RBI potential, just think this Alex was working out w/ him and he lasted w/ him.
“I’d even go Marquez,Kennedy and Ohlendorf.”
Brandon, putting more limited-upside AAA arms in there isn’t going to help.
The guy could be a franchise hitter. You have to be willing to part with some high-upside young players. With McAllister, Betances and Brackman all being potentially dominant arms that are a couple years away, you can afford to part with one of them. And you’d have to. In addition to some interesting piece that’s closer to MLB. Kennedy could regain that status with a solid year…a guy who’s put together a good 2/3 of a season in the AL East and is still under control for 5 more years would have a lot of value. Horne has more upside, so he’d also have value if he authors another good effort this year and stays healthy.
TKinDC,
Didn’t know that in regards to Moose.
CB,
I follow the bouncing shrink when it comes to the Yankees in the draft.
Their “performance coach” (aka, shrink) has been to Vanderbilt, UM, and Florida that I know of in recent weeks.
That tells me they are centering on college players (no surprise) and probably on lefty pitchers.
Brett Jacobson of Vanderbilt, although not a lefty, is one pitcher rumored to be of interest to the Yankees.
If somebody big drops because of signability issues, of course they will pounce.
Its a thin draft. I have a feeling the Yankees will center on one guy and if they don’t get him, just fall on the best available athlete theme.
A guy to keep an eye on. Dennis Raben, OF, University of Miami.
If the pitchers they want don’t fall to them, Raben is a guy to watch. He was hurt earlier in the year. He gets overshadowed by Yonder Alonso and Jamelle Weeks (who are both Top 10 picks, IMO) but he can really play.
He reminds me of a young Paul O’Neill. He had a great summer in the Cape last year and I’d love for him to fall to the Yankees.
He may not. But, you never know.
Where I think they are planning to flex their financial muscle this year is the Latin American free agent market.
Cashman has already made 2 in-season trips to LA and the rumors are flying the Yankees are ready to spend whatever it takes to sign 3-4 of the top guys.
Supposedly, its a big year in the LA market.
Laporta is basically destroying the minor leagues and dictating what balls can and cannot go into his strike zone.
I don’t think Kennedy and Ohlendorf snag him, although I do agree that with Braun and Fielder, the Brewers could trade him.
I just don’t think they will, he looks so legit.
“this may be a stupid question, but with the demand for instant replay becoming a topic twice in a week, what would stop a home team from showing replays on the big screen/scorboard once the manager goes out to start an arguement?”
That would be one of the funniest things I have seen in baseball.
“LaPorta is a top 5 prospect now. Those guys very rarely get traded.
It would be great – but it’s not likely unless Hughes was included, IMO.”
Makes sense. So, do you get Morales to pair with Miranda and form a two-headed all-Cuban powerhouse of poor fielding at first base?
Next 33+ games is a farily “soft” schedule for NY.
Couldn’t be a better time to start this transition for Joba.
Yanks need to play those 33 games at 20-13…
“Brandon, putting more limited-upside AAA arms in there isn’t going to help.”
yeh I was afraid of that. I’d want to do a bulk B pospects deal but in reality we’re talking about Horne, Betances or McAllister..
“They also prepared him as a starter this spring.”
Insomuch as 9 and 2/3 innings over 6 appearances was preparing him to start, I’ll go along with you on this.
“Where I think they are planning to flex their financial muscle this year is the Latin American free agent market.
Cashman has already made 2 in-season trips to LA and the rumors are flying the Yankees are ready to spend whatever it takes to sign 3-4 of the top guys.
Supposedly, its a big year in the LA market.”
Better place to spend than the FA market. Though there are the perennial age concerns. Those aren’t as much of an issue until their first FA deal, though is does affect their projection I suppose.
pat, are you talking about aaron crow, from mizzou? i head him interviewed on xm saturday. as a mizzou guy (in college i did play-by-play for the tigers on the student radio station) id love to see him here, but he is probably going to be taken in the 1st 3 or 4 picks in the draft. also, i dont know the draft order, but i guarentee he doesnt get past the royals and cards in this draft.
“Moose had come to terms with the fact he wouldn’t reach 300 wins.”
Thats part of the reason why this apparent turn around he’s put together this year is so interesting.
If Mussina has figured out how to pitch with an 85 mph fastball then he actually does have a shot at 300.
Not probable but if he has turned into a moderately successful junk baller there’s a shot.
If Mussina wins even over 275 I think he definitely gets into the Hall. Pitching during the steroid era and winning that many games if very impressive.
Yonder Alonso is a stud. Great hitter, even better defensively, great kid.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe he’s gonna drop far enough for the Yankees this year. Signability won’t be an issue with him.
He can really play. He’s better than LaPorta and LaPorta is impressive. Much better all around player.
“Insomuch as 9 and 2/3 innings over 6 appearances was preparing him to start, I’ll go along with you on this.”
He was throwing all his pitches and pitching like a starter, doing prep-work like a starter. If we’re concerned about mindset, then he was spending that time preparing as a starter. He also got up to 60 pitches or so. It’ll be interesting to see when his next outing is. Will they put him on an ST starting schedule?
I just saw this in Buster Brown’s columns at Bristol Clown College. If true and the Yankees CC this off-season, I’m prepared to admit I was wrong and to forgive Cashman. Not that that matters one iota, but at least I’ll feel like I repented.
“Heard this from a couple of evaluators: Johan Santana’s velocity is down 3-4 miles per hour from a couple of years ago. He is short-arming the ball more than he has in the past — and this is after some red flags appeared in the physical examination he underwent before signing with the Mets. Sources say his shoulder showed some wear and tear, which is not unusual for a pitcher of Santana’s age. This is not to say Santana is not an effective pitcher now, but all of this information makes you wonder how effective he will remain during the course of his multi-year deal.”
Bets on who the Yankees promote first to the major league roster:
1) Robertson
2) Horne
3) McCutchen
4) Melancon
“If Mussina wins even over 275 I think he definitely gets into the Hall. Pitching during the steroid era and winning that many games if very impressive.”
I dunno. The voters get very hung up on that need for a sort of crystallizing event or aura. A post-season of brilliance, or that one 20-win season. Like, I feel like 250 wins with a 20-win season would “feel” better to the voters than 275 wins with 5 19-win seasons.
“He was throwing all his pitches and pitching like a starter, doing prep-work like a starter.”
True. His curve was fine. His change-up was weak. I think that’s as much about feel as anything. He’ll need the time to find it.
I wonder how they’ll do this. Give him mop up innings like yesterday or send him to the minors.
When are people going to get off of the Gardner bandwagon? Some of you people think every single player in the minors will turn into an everyday player in the majors. Not going to happen, not even close. Everyone outside of the Yankee organization knows that Gardner is nothing special. He’s just a guy with speed, but that one tool, with nothing else, isn’t worth a damn. Otherwise, Carl Lewis would’ve been a baseball player. If one of Austin Jackson or Jose Tabata turn into a serviceable major league regular, we should count ourselves lucky.
“Supposedly, its a big year in the LA market.”
That’s good to hear. I love the yankees draft philosophy. But skilled, athletic position players don’t fall to the end of the first round due to signability very often.
The yanks have taken advantage of other team being leery about pitchers with injury histories.
But with position players there’s not too many injuries that are going to make them drop if they are talented.
I think the athletic position players the team is going to have in the future are largely going to be from the international market.
High risk – its’ just so hard to project a 16 year old. But that’s going to be their best route.
Got them Montero. A few more Montero’s would be welcome!
moose can easily go to pittsburgh and pitch for 3-4 more years in the n.l., im convinced. i know he’s a different bird, but not many turn down $4M or so to pitch in the majors, and he probably needs to get closer to 300 to make the hof for sure.
Thank you Kill-Schill(ing) – I will be sure to tell that to my girlfriend and her family, who all wear Santana shirts around the house since before he even threw his first pitch on the Mets. Those are the kind of quotes I appreciate on this blog
“Johan Santana’s velocity is down 3-4 miles per hour from a couple of years ago. ”
I don’t remember where I heard/read this but one of the reasons the Yankees were not 100% sold on Johan was that in the second half of last year he started pitching differently.
Not only did his win-loss record deteriorate, but he apparently stopped throwing sliders and became a 2-pitch pitcher. The concerns about the soundness of his arm/shoulder impacted the Yanks assessment.
I hope he stays healthy, but it was a yellow flag if not a red one.
SJ -
How Cleveland fares in their division will determine how hard they’ll go to retain Sabathia and Dolan is known to be a miser.
I believe that the Yankees will be on the radar of he and his agents as long as they realize that Santana money is not realistic.
The more time passes the less enthused I get about Teixeira. I’m not so sure that Hal Steinbrenner in particular will be so willing to spend Scott Boras kind of dollars after freshly ridding themselves of the Giambi albatross contract. Scott Boras will want to regain some of his ego after the A-Rod fallout but he won’t do it at the expense of the Steinbrenners.
Anthony you are wrong about gardner he has more than 1 tool.
He has speed, discipline, and hit for average.
3 out of 5 ain’t bad.
Also Fredo, Girardi already said they will stretch Joba out in the majors. Look at what Billingsly did last year for an example.
KS, it would seem to me that while Melancon is taregeted for the 8th inning gig, JB Cox is a little closer to being ready to make an appearancei n the Bronx first. But i dont think Melancon will be far behind.
I’d prob say Patterson first, followed by Robertson, McCutcheon, Cox, then Horne. I think they’ll be pretty content to let Horne come back and get some innings at Scranton and prove his health before they talk about any type of promotion.
“If Mussina wins even over 275 I think he definitely gets into the Hall. Pitching during the steroid era and winning that many games if very impressive.â€
Pitchers used PEDS too, so that argument falls short. Mussina makes a fair case. He was a stud with the O’s and was the Yanks best pitcher in 2001, when Clemens won the most fradulent Cy this side of Bartolo Colon.
Pretty good postseason resume. I’d say he’s a little better than 50/50.
“I wonder how they’ll do this. Give him mop up innings like yesterday or send him to the minors.”
More than likely mop up innings. Joba experimenting is like Papelbon in his prime. No sense having Joba pitch to AAA when he will be throwing the same pitches as he would in the majors.
“So, do you get Morales to pair with Miranda and form a two-headed all-Cuban powerhouse of poor fielding at first base?”
It’s very hard to carry two very unathletic players in a platoon.
That’s part of the difficulty in seeing where Miranda might fit if he doesn’t start hitting lefties. He’s locked into first and can’t play any other position besides DH.
He’s the kind of guy who is tough to carry in a platoon, especially if the other guy is a mirror image.
That’s at least one of the nice things with Shelley – he can play a passable RF. If only he’d start hitting…
Gardner can hit for average? He’s not even hitting .300 in AAA and he’s already 25 years old! For comparison, Betemit, in his rehab games there, hit .353 with a 1.064 OPS. Do those numbers translate into Barry Bonds numbers at the MLB level? Nope. And if those numbers go down precipitously, what do you think will happen to Gardner’s .290 average?
“He was a stud with the O’s and was the Yanks best pitcher in 2001, when Clemens won the most fradulent Cy this side of Bartolo Colon.”
If Moose had won like he should have there would be more noise about his HOF chances. I think that 1 Cy Young would have made him look MUCH different in the eyes of the voters.
We need to get A-Rod to give Tex a little “friendly advice” about Scott Boras. I wonder if those two even know each other since they are both Boras’ clients.
Oh, and discipline is not one of the five tools, for the record.
“JB Cox is a little closer to being ready to make an appearance in the Bronx first.”
What’s the scouting report on Cox? Read on the SWB blog he’s pitching in the high 80′s, occasioanlly touching 90. Doesn’t sound overpowering. What’s he throw???
dismissing gardner before he even gets a chance at the mlb level is just stupid. nobody here is predicting anything special from the guy, but speed and energy are sorely lacking at our mlb level and he might be a guy that can help spark them a bit. also, he seems more suited to the senior circuit and with so many nl teams looking for low priced talend (read cheap owners) he doesnt have to do too much at the mlb level to garner alot of interest on the trade market. leaving him eternally in aaa would be to fumble any chance at reaping value from the guy. and who knows, he might be able to hit .285, play good d and do all the role player things that nobody on the yankees seems willing or able to do.
no comments on my proposition of moving jorge to 1b and trading for a starting c instead of a 1B?
“Pitchers used PEDS too, so that argument falls short”
No one thinks mussina used anything. That’s part of his argument to get in.
I also think there’s much less reason to believe that PED’s help pitchers than hitters.
Hitting is directly related to strength and hand speed. We didn’t see many anomalous pitching performances during that era that tracked with the things we saw with HR production by bonds, mcguire and sosa. Even with Clemens it was longevity more than anything else.
Latroy suspended 3 games.
Joba being stretched out means that he won’t be available on back-to-back days.
More likely, he’ll be available every 3-4-5 days, depending on innings last pitched…right?
“Bets on who the Yankees promote first to the major league roster:”
I think…
1) Robertson (first)
2) Horne (3rd – due to injury, poss move to pen)
3) McCutchen (2nd – if the need for another starter arises)
4) Melancon (4th – blocked by a few others in pen, though prob the best of the bunch. Also, is in AA, while the others are in AAA).
Alonso is a beast, and would be a great addition to the Yankees, but like SJ said, he won’t be there for them to select. Miami will win the CWS this season.
SJ, do you go to any of the games down there. I used to go to a lot of them. Man, I miss south Florida!!!
“No one thinks mussina used anything. That’s part of his argument to get in.”
Actually, nobody has any idea whether he did or not. It’s an exceedingly weak argument.
Jorge isn’t moving to 1B, I think that debate isn’t going anywhere. Besides, there are more good first baseman than good catchers in the majors.
Bubba Crosby had ton of energy and speed, did he give these players a spark to succeed? No. These ideas are plain fluff. Veterans aren’t looking to Gardner as motivation to play better. What we needed was a big bat in the middle of the order again, which we have now with ARod. We don’t need guys who are even worse than the players on the roster now. Trade him if possible, absolutely, but to count on him as the guy who is going to turn the team around is delusional at best.
“The Boston Herald reports that Jonathan Papelbon and Dustin Pedroia aren’t currently looking to sign long-term contracts because “both are intent on bucking what has become a disturbing trend for players in their position.”
“I have no problem with pushing the market up,” Papelbon said. “I have no problem with guys holding out for what they’re worth. I have no problem with going year to year.”"
Does this guy actually think he is a trend setter? What a clown.
Thanks Brandon and SJ.
I figured he was pretty good, but didn’t know he could be projected that high in the draft.
Working out with Alex and Dougy M. has to be nirvana for a college age power hitting 1st baseman.
mel, yes. they ruled a legit HR a double. not to sound like i’m whining about a call that didn’t go our way in an 8-0 win, but i’m really surprised none of the umps were able to see the ball change directions considering the range of positions they’re in throughout the infield.
But is there any rule that regulates what they can show on the big screen? Are they not allowed to show replays on it?
I would favor Posada at 1B if there was a better catching option, but i thin finding a starting catcher would be more expensive than a 1B option… laws of supply and demand.
I believe that JB Cox, like Robertson, pitches to contact and has great sink on his pitches, which in turn induces a ton of ground balls. nothing overpowering, but everything moves type pitchers.
“no comments on my proposition of moving jorge to 1b and trading for a starting c instead of a 1B?”
Starting C is a tough get on the trade market. You’re looking at a Benji Molina type, which isn’t an awful thing, but he’s probably on the back nine like Posada. Gerald Laird? Ramon Hernandez?? Maybe I suppose.
We also don’t know whether Posada can be an everyday 1B. We know about his desire to be one though.
“I wonder if those two even know each other since they are both Boras’ clients.”
Didn’t they play at least one year together in Texas?
With all due respect to Mike Mussina, he did pitch for 2 contending teams in his career whereas a guy like Tommy John pitched for lowly White Sox and Indian teams for years and still managed to win 285 games.
He also lost better than a year for sugery now commonly named after his that resurrected many arms including some fast rising ones in the Yankees system.
It’s a mystery why that was never taken into account by the voting writers.
It should be
Should replace throwing.
saucy, i believe i heard there is in fact a rule against replaying in-game highlights in major league stadiums, but dont have any factual link to back that up.
the 1B most likely to be leaving cleveland is probably travis hafner, who has fallen off the table completely since the asb last year. he’s hitting .222 4HR, 21RBI this year (and .216 the past month)
he went .270 10HR 43rbi after the asb last season, which doesnt sound too bad, but he’s supposed to be THE GUY in that lineup, and he’s really beginning to hear it from the progresso fans.
normally i dont use the corporate names but when you take money to change your name to something so stupid, you should have to wear it on your uni’s.
“But is there any rule that regulates what they can show on the big screen? Are they not allowed to show replays on it?”
Not sure whether it’s allowed, but I do know if the manager mentions the replay in his argument he’ll be ejected in a nano second.
Russell –
Papelbon is a clown – but in this aspect he is doing us a favor. The more expensive he is to retain for the hated BoSox, the happier we should be.
Same goes for that vicious little ferret, Pedroia.
Yonder and Alex at the U complex
anthony, i personally think jorge’s shoulder may not be up to catching any more, especially for the remainder of this season or until he goes under the knife. so using him at 1b/dh might be our only option for the rest of this season.
thanks TurnTwo
“Actually, nobody has any idea whether he did or not. It’s an exceedingly weak argument.”
This was part of the reason why ARod got that extra $30 million in marketing guarantees for breaking the HR record.
Much of ARod’s appeal right now is related to the fact that no one (outside of jose canseco) thinks he used steroids or HGH.
As there is no urine test for HGH and steroids can be masked it’s impossible to know if anyone did not use PEDs or if they did.
For instance there’s no definitive 100% proof that Clemens used steroids. So by the “weak argument” line of thinking Clemens bid for the Hall shouldn’t be affected.
Clearly it will. Same for McGuire and Sosa. No one definitely knows that either used steroids. There were no positive tests. But there’s a strong perception they did. Clearly it will impact their chances.
It’s pretty clear that some players are much more likely to have used PED’s and other not as likely.
Mussina’s has never had any whiff of impropriety surrounding him and his body type hasn’t changed significantly at all.
In an era where offense exploded I think HOF voters are going to look at career performances for pitchers in a different light.
260-270 wins during an era when offense was dominant is going to look very good.
We’ll see.
hawkins suspended for 3 games!!!!!!!!
i take it from the daily news
“Latroy suspended 3 games.”
isn’t that the standard penalty for the charge of Yankee not hitting someone?
followed by an appeal to widdle it down to 1 game…
“What’s the scouting report on Cox? Read on the SWB blog he’s pitching in the high 80’s, occasioanlly touching 90. Doesn’t sound overpowering. What’s he throw???”
Cox has big, sweeping “frisbee” like slider and a very good change up.
Those are his out pitches. His fastball is just average but his secondary pitches are very good.
my god neck time aim for the back, 3 games for missing sucks
TKinDC –
The Red Sox will have an infusion of young talent joining the big club over the next two season. Signing their guys to long-term deals may be a priority (should be?), since the majority of their lineup will consist of these guys. It’ll be interesting to watch.
What’s the status on Varitek after this season? Sign that guy to one year deals all you want – his offense is in a steady decline…
I think Pap is completely right there. The media and fans have it all turned around. The players should get the money, not the owners, that’s who we’re there to see. The money is there whether it is spent on players or not, so it might as well go to who earned it.
oh man when the Red Sox see how over the 117 million salary tax mark they will end up after signing Ped and Pap, wouldn’t it be something if The Mets go after Pedroia and force the Soxs to overpay, Papelbon a CL in the FA market won’t be worth all that $$$ but to see Henry and Theo realize they need to show him the money
CB:
My PED argument is this:
1) We have no idea who did or didn’t use.
2) We know many did and that Mitchell Report, by the author’s admission, was the tip of the iceberg
3) Players knew it was going on. They were either using or knew it was happening around them
4) Rather than address/expose the issue, the players marched in lockstep behind Fehr and Orza in an effort to keep it from being addressed/exposed.
5) If you ain’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. This is particularly true of high profile guys like Mussina (who I believe did time as the O’s Union rep).
6) There are no innocent parties in the PED era and using it to validate what a player did during that time is the height of hypocrisy (sp?).
Joba will do something along the lines of 2-3 long relief roles before actually assuming his starting rotation slot.
These would amount to 3-4 inning stints.
“to count on him (gardner) as the guy who is going to turn the team around is delusional at best.”
did anybody think shawn chacon or aaron small, cano and wang or even al leiter were gonna turn this team around?
Victor – I disagree.
I think the process will take much longer than that.
Brandon:
Papelbon isn’t an FA for 3 years. Pedroia isn’t for 4 years. Mets won’t be involved for awhile on those guys.
pap’s lips were moving but it was boras’s voice coming out of his mouth.
When did Al Leiter turn the team around? And to count on getting lucky, rather than just being happy when it happens, is extremely foolish.
crap I forgot about the service years.. eh..
“What’s the status on Varitek after this season? Sign that guy to one year deals all you want – his offense is in a steady decline…”
I will grant you that Varitek’s average was down last year.
However his stats right now are not too shabby. His average is .295, he has six home runs, 18 rbi’s, and a slg of .519.
Plus even non Red Sox fans realize he does an excellent job at handling pitchers as evidenced by the number of no hitters by young pitchers.
Fred Moose was not only the O player rep he is the Yanks player rep at all.One of the things I found interesting in Living on the Black (still reading it it is a long book) is how BOTH GLavine and Moose felt pressure to sign certain contracts because of the union.How in their position it was their responsibility to set the standards so to speak and when options to buy out free agent years or go for a 5th year came about the felt they had to fight for that or they would be letting the union down. Glavine in fact did not get the 5th year he wanted (the team told them they wwre not going to sign 5 year deals although a few month later they signed Smoltz to one) Glavine took a alot of heat from the union and Moose about not sticking to the guns and setting a cieling and fighting for the standard.
Lets hope not ham fighter.
TKinDC – definitely wasn’t upset that Papelbon is holding out for more money. Just merely pointing out another reason to laugh at how dumb a Red Sox is.
Fredo,
Your argument is fair enough. I just have a feeling that HOF voters don’t see it that way. I just base that on what guys who have votes have said so far and the general reaction to Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Clemens, etc.
Again we’ll see. This is very subjective given the problems with testing. But I think it’s gong to be a factor with the voters right or wrong.
anthony, al lieter was picked up off the junk heap the day before the yankees had basically nobody available to pitch a sunday game against the red sox and pitched GREAT when the yankees were DESPARATE! that one start boosted the yankees more than any one-game performance in memory.
CB:
Agreed. My position on the HOF is that the voters have to be consistent about the era and those who played in it.
ray – Lester’s no-hitter was against a crap team realizing how much crap they actually are. As for Bucholz, much like we saw with Hughes, it sometimes takes a few times around before a NEW pitcher in the majors gets figured out.
As for Varitek… he is off to a hot start but he really isn’t getting any better lol
just re: Gardner… look, noone is thinking he’s going to be a savior, but its as ridiculous to count him out before he ever plays an inning at the MLB level as it is to think he’ll rescue the team.
not to be picking on anthony, but imagine if gardner was in LF tuesday night and made the catch that damon missed on the dive. 2-0 baltimore, end of inning and gardner coming to the plate to lead off the bottom of the 1st. if the yankees match the 2 run inning (maybe with a garner walk and steal starting it), moose gets a breather and comes back to pitch decent and the wheels start rolling in the other direction. you never know when a bench player or a guy from the minors does somthing that starts things going in another direction, often called a ‘spark’ that turns things around. it doesnt take alot (butterfly flapping its wings in mexico) to change the future.
You must be remembering a different Leiter performance than I am. I’m remember the guy who pitched to the tune of a 5+ ERA. To say one start turned the season around is ridiculous. Rasner and Moose have already given us some gutsy performances this year, the fact that Leiter may have pitched a good game that was followed by more good games has nothing at all to do with his presence.
Hawkins got a 3 games suspension? Boo
Ok, well, we’ll see what Gardner brings to the table and when that happens, I’ll be happy to say I told you so.
Papelbon’s ego tells him that big bucks are coming but the way Francoma uses him suggests a flameout possibly before the big payday arrives. He’s needed more than his manager cares to admit.
Hard throwers in the bullpen are susceptible to shoulder or elbow problems (see list of many) as his former but brief teammate (Gagne) can attest to.
Mariano has lasted all these years by being used right, pitching smart, and when necessary throw heat when needed.
Papelbon will never have the longevity of Mo. None of Mo’s traits apply.
considering noone here is preaching and pushing Gardner as a future all star, i’m not sure who you’ll be sticking it to, but you keep fighting the man. good for you.
Russell NY
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:31 am
“ray – Lester’s no-hitter was against a crap team realizing how much crap they actually are.”
So what you saying Russell is that since Kansas City is such a crap team we can expect to see plenty of no hitters thrown by Yankee pitchers this year against Kansas City?
i have to disagree with you again about that lieter start. the day before he pitched was perhaps the blackest day of the year (just like tuesday night) it seemed like the pitching staff had collapsed and the red sox were about to snuff us. that one start boosted the entire team, which went on to play great after that. sure, had they lost maybe the would have come back, but psychologically speaking, that win took a 16-ton weight off the entire team, and they breezed after that.
sometimes perception is reality and if you have some clutch performance or just one single great play or hit(see ruben sierra) is the thing that sets you mind to thinking positivly instead of being down in the doldrums.
btw, if we turn things around from last night on, credit the captain for refusing to give into the pain as this year’s spark.
“btw, if we turn things around from last night on, credit the captain for refusing to give into the pain as this year’s spark.”
Willis Reed-style?
The thing about Casey specifically was that he signed a ML contract; I don’t think that we had the room for another.
“ray – Lester’s no-hitter was against a crap team realizing how much crap they actually are.â€
– Aren’t the Yankees 1-2 vs. this “crap” team this year?
Varitek is similar to Jorge in that he’s been relied on for a long period of time. His hitting stats will constantly decline whether he signs a series of one-year deals or otherwise. The difference is, Boston doesn’t have a Jesus Montero, Austin Romine, or even a Francisco Cervelli on the horizon. Maybe they think Varitek can call games as a pitching coach.
“So what you saying Russell is that since Kansas City is such a crap team we can expect to see plenty of no hitters thrown by Yankee pitchers this year against Kansas City?”
Now you’re off topic. You contributed Varitek’s “handling of pitchers” to a no-hitter that Lester threw against a crap team. You don’t tip your hat to Varigay, you tip it to Lester.
“Aren’t the Yankees 1-2 vs. this “crap†team this year?”
Every team goes through their little streaks. Lester caught the Royals coming back down to their level.
FWIW, i think Veritek now holds the record for being behind the plate for calling/catching more no-hitters than any other catcher in history.
ham fighter
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:26 am
“pap’s lips were moving but it was boras’s voice coming out of his mouth.”
Ham…..unless papelbon has recently switched agents the last I knew Adam Greenberg was his agent…not scott boras.
In other news, it came as no surprise last night when Carl Pavano won the American Idle Award.
Doreen…. comparing Bernie to Andy is a bad comparison. Before was a below average OFer… a dime-a-dozen guy. Andy is still an above average pitcher, even if only slightly above. With 3 kids in the SR, a vet like Andy (and just like Mosse THIS year) is an asset. You can never have enough pitching, but it’s easy to have to many OFers. If they keep Andy it wont be for sentiment. If they overpay him a bit…. well, that might be.
Unless Andy is a pure stud the rest of the season, he won’t be expecting $16m next year. He won’t be worth that. At $8-10m, it’s reasonable insurance for the Yankees, and lets Andy play in the new stadium… which seems to be his prime motivation. I don’t think he’s interested in playing ONE year for another team. I don’t think he’s looking for a 2 yr contract.
ray, a disticntion without a difference, my point was that the agent was speaking through paps. and there is nothing wrong with that. saying you wont sign away your option years may well be a ploy to start discussions about doing exactly that.
Turntow you are correct he is the only catcher to catch 4 no hitters
I have to out it up again…
I think Patterson needs to be seriously given some consideration here. I will begein to beat the dead horse….now.
He is:
On his third straight season dominating the upper minors.
Dominating while throwing lots of strikes.
Dominating while not giving up hits.
Dominating while striking guys out.
Again, it is tough to find a pitcher that has all four of those qualities on his resume that doesn’t end up pitching successfully in the major leagues.
Ohlendorf gets ONE of the four (strikes)…he has given up MORE hits than innings while stiking out well under one per inning in the minors.
JB Cox at least fills 2 since he has not given up hits and throws lots of strikes, but he doesn’t strike a ton of guys out and hasn’t done it in the upper minors consistently yet.
PATTERSON FOR PRESIDENT.
Wow, Webb actually lost last night (7 IP/3 ER effort; D-Backs only scored 1 off of Nolasco)
Chacon finlly picked up a decision (a W in his 10th start this season) last night, for that matter
If Mike Mussina makes the HOF while Luis Tiant and Bert Blyleven are left out in the cold then there ain’t no justice in the world. Mr. Almost — Almost won 20, almost threw a no-hitter, almost won the WS, almost transcended mediocrity.
Ham,
I do agree about your point in that Pap’s agent is probably directing these conversations.
“may well be a ploy to start discussions about doing exactly that.”
ding ding ding ding We have a winner! Likely secenario is the Sox are floating a number he isn’t happy about to buy out a few years of free agency. Why else comment on something now that isn’t going to happen for 4 years?
“You can tell that Girardi and Cashman don’t WANT to do it, at least not this year. Hank is driving this train.â€
whozat: “You couldn’t be more wrong. They have been SAYING from the beginning that the plan was to move him back to a starting role during this season.”
The obvious error in whozat’s reply above is that he foolishly confuses what they say with what they want. We all know what Girardi and Cashman say about Joba. But what they want is for Joba to stay in the pen this year.
“I do agree about your point in that Pap’s agent is probably directing these conversations.”
I disagree. It is my OPINION that Papelbon is dumb enough to lead negotiations himself and in his own clownish way.
“If Mike Mussina makes the HOF while Luis Tiant and Bert Blyleven are left out in the cold then there ain’t no justice in the world. Mr. Almost — Almost won 20, almost threw a no-hitter, almost won the WS, almost transcended mediocrity.”
Moose has very similar numbers to Blyleven. I think they both should go to the hall.
I don’t agree with your almost transcended mediocrity statement however. Moose is far greater than mediocre.
“The obvious error in whozat’s reply above is that he foolishly confuses what they say with what they want. We all know what Girardi and Cashman say about Joba. But what they want is for Joba to stay in the pen this year.”
Why would Girardi and Cashman want to severely limit Joba’s potential by keeping him in the pen all year? Just because it’s what YOU would really like to happen doesn’t mean they think that way.
Hideki–
You could not be more wrong in your thinking IMHO.If Cashman and Girardi WANTED Joba to stay in the pen this year he would be staying in the pen.
“We all know what Girardi and Cashman say about Joba. But what they want is for Joba to stay in the pen this year.”
Really? And how is it that you know what they deep, down inside their hearts truly want to do?
That’s a remarkable power. To listen to someone say something dozens and dozens of times and to yet know they truly desire the exact opposite.
How are you able to see past what people are saying?
Here’s an interesting quote from Cashman today. Now I know this “only” what he’s saying but there seems to be a lot of heart in this:
“We haven’t forgotten the ability that he’s shown from one through seven or eight innings as a starter, and how he maintained it,†Cashman said. “It’s hard to forget, if you had a chance to see that. And because of that, we’re sticking with the program we’ve had in place now for quite some time.â€
That’s a remarkable thing to say “It’s hard to foret, if you had to chance to see that.”
And here was Tyler Keppner’s take on what Cashman had to say:
“The phrase that stuck with me of those comments is this: “if you had the chance to see that.†I traveled to Trenton last July and I did have a chance to see Chamberlain start. And I was awed by the possibility of what he could do as a starter.”
Again – pretty remarkable quote there: “And I was awed by the possibility of what he could do as a starter.”
But then again, what use are words in a world when some people have the intuitive power to see how people mean the exact opposite of what they say over and over.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....ill-start/
i read some comments elsewhere about whether Moose is HOF worthy just a few days ago.
someone asked something along the lines of “if you had a game 7 and could choose any starting pitcher in history in their prime, Mussina wouldn’t even be in the top 100″.
it was a silly question, but i think Moose would be well within the list of 100.
russel, rooting for paps to miss out on his money is not the best outcome for the yanks. from a yankees perspective the best thing re: paps would be for the sox to sign him tomorrow to a 6 yr, $60M contract and then paps turns bust the next day.
Pete,
I’m wondering how you feel with the Girardi trust issues with the media after he basically said a few days ago that Joba might remain in the pen all season.
Last night’s press conference after the game seemed to indicate that Joba to the rotation at this point in time was the plan all along, so why would Girardi feel the need to divert you guys and the fans with the Joba in the pen all season talk a few days back?
Just curious if the handling of the story was another step back for him.
So does Jamie Moyer make the Hall just because he refuses to retire? Mussina has been the most overrated pitcher in baseball for at least the past ten years. Orel Hershiser was better. Tommy John was better. Tiant was WAY better. Even Fat Boy Wells was better. All Mussina’s ever done is to be above average for a long time. Thank God Carl Everett got that base hit.
Can someone explain to me why a red sox fan (and not simultaneously a fan of the Yankees) would want to hang out on a Yankees blog?
Even if you appear to be somewhat civilized, your subtle negativity is not welcome. Especially when you have no care for the team at all.
Fredo: “Not sure Sabathia gets more than Santana but you are 100% right on the years. Yanks won’t be alone in that bidding. I’d expect the Dodgers to be in it. Mets too.
He may get more than Santana after all.”
The Mets will not be serious bidders. He is not getting more than Santana. You have argued every positive move for the Yanks in this room so far – in your own red sox fan way.
ray: “Plus even non Red Sox fans realize he does an excellent job at handling pitchers as evidenced by the number of no hitters by young pitchers.”
News flash: Varitek is on the decline with no replacement in sight.
From the day Joba was drafted, he was drafted as a starting pitcher.
It was Cashman who came up with the idea to have Joba help them in the ‘pen last year.
He was NEVER going to stay in the bullpen.
Every off-season conversation they had, and in every interview they had with the 3 managerial candidates, they stressed how they were going to transition Joba to the rotation.
The entire decisionmaking body of the organization (ownership, GM and the manager) are on board with the decision.
Some folks may not like it but, don’t make the leap that this is just Hank’s call. You would be incorrect.
Look at the Yankees as a whole. What is their strength as an organization right now? Young pitching.
When is it strongest? In the bullpen.
Its why they can afford to begin transitioning Joba now.
If they don’t do it now, they have no shot at doing it next year. They would be forced to keep him in the bullpen (due to innings limits) and that would be a dumb organizational decision.
You don’t waste a talent like Joba as a setup guy.
I know I digress, but did Bartolo Colon and David Wells ever pitch against one another? And if so, was that the all-time record for combined weight of two starters in an MLB game? How about CC Sabathia vs. Sidney Ponson? Seriously, does anyone keep track of this?
“I’m wondering how you feel with the Girardi trust issues with the media after he basically said a few days ago that Joba might remain in the pen all season. ”
they did ask Joba what he wanted to do on Tuesday. maybe Girardi was waiting to hear what Joba wanted to do before making any announcements…
oh boy 40 mins. till FatBoy and Ratface’s show
“But what they want is for Joba to stay in the pen this year.”
Did they tell you that? I’m gonna assume No.
All we have heard is that eventually, Joba will be a starter. Maybe some haven’t paid attention? None of this is a surprise and this is not going against Cashman and Girardi’s wishes.
A friend of mine made a really good point to me today. Why is IPK starting tonight? It makes absolutely no sense, unless Wang is too injured to take his start. If everyone stays on their normal rest, the rotation would set up for IPK to get only one start in the next two cycles. By pitching him today, he has to pitch twice. Observe:
Current set-up:
Thursday: IPK
Friday: AP
Saturday: Wang
Sunday: Mussina
Monday: Rasner
Tuesday: IPK
Wednesday: AP
Thursday: DAY OFF
Friday: Wang
But, if you skip IPK and keep everyone on regular rest:
Thursday: AP
Friday: Wang
Saturday: IPK
Sunday: Mussina
Monday: Rasner
Tuesday: AP
Wednesday: Wang
Thursday: DAY OFF (skip IPK)
Friday: Mussina
This scares me a bit, because there can only be two explanations (that I can think of):
1) Girardi isn’t thinking straight (I reject this option), or
2) Wang is more hurt than they’re letting on, so he can’t go on normal rest, or they’re concerned he can’t go at all.
russell you are correct.. I have no interest on posting on the sux blogs..
most normal people would not have any interest in posting on the oppositions site, I underline the word normal person.
Jay Jaffe of baseball prospectus did a very interesting analysis of potential hall of fame pitchers who are active now.
Baseball Prospectus has a statistic they call jaws which compares all players to the performance of players in the hall of fame.
They look at both the players performance in terms of longevity and peak performance.
They do a very good job with looking at HOF potential. It’s not just stat “geek” stuff but they put the numbers in context of the era and external factors as well. Jaffe is a very good writer as well.
From his body of work, Moose compares favorably from a performance standpoint with other hall of famers and with current active pitchers who are likely to be in the hall.
Pitcher Career Peak JAWS
Roger Clemens 199.6 83.9 141.8
Greg Maddux 180.3 86.0 133.2
Randy Johnson 147.0 77.3 112.2
Tom Glavine 137.4 63.7 100.6
Pedro Martinez 118.0 68.8 93.4
Mike Mussina 117.8 64.3 91.1
John Smoltz 122.8 58.5 90.7
Curt Schilling 110.3 65.9 88.1
Avg HoF SP 106.0 67.2 86.6
On the minus side was Moose’s lack of “hardware” – Cy Young’s, WS, etc.
Here was Jaffe’s conclusion:
“At 39 and now reduced to employing a fastball that wouldn’t get ticketed in a school zone, it’s a safe bet that the Moose isn’t going to become a member of the club. Which isn’t to say that he doesn’t have Hall-worthy numbers, at least from a JAWS standpoint. As with Smoltz but to a lesser extent on both scales, Mussina’s ahead on career and short on peak numbers, with PRAR and PRAA numbers (284 and 1221, respectively) that also surpass the benchmarks. What Mussina doesn’t have going for him, particularly relative to Smoltz, is the hardware which will augment his much more traditional case: no World Series ring, no Cy Young, no 20-win season (he’s had 18 or 19 five times) and “only” five All-Star appearances. His post-season record is “just” 7-8, albeit with a 3.42 ERA and 145 strikeouts in 139 2/3 innings; the fact that his teams have scored just 3.2 runs per game for him is a big reason, and certainly hasn’t helped his quest for a ring.
In Mussina’s favor is a long stretch in which he could lay claim to being one of the league’s best pitchers; he finished in the top five of the Cy voting six times from 1992 to 2001, with two sixth-place finishes as well, and has eight top five finishes in ERA, and eight top 10 finishes in strikeouts. While not the equal of Clemens, Johnson, or Martinez, he was one of the league’s top-shelf hurlers for a good long time. He’s probably facing a tooth-and-nail fight, but it ought to turn out in his favor.”
http://www.futilityinfielder.c.....-run.shtml
At the beginning of the 2008 Spring Training, the “plan” to make Joba a starter by June was fluid and depended on:
(a)The overall successes of Hughes and Kennedy during the Season
(b)The overall health and effectiveness of the veterans Mussina and Petttite. Wang was a given as long as he didn’t suffer a major injury.
(c)The chance that at least one of Karstens, Rasner or Igawa would pitch well enough in Spring to win a starting role.
Most of these “ideal situations” have not happened. Had the Yankees experienced good to moderate success with their starting 5…and played at or near the top of their Division…Joba would’ve remained as the setup man for 2008.
You are leaving out the option that they want to get Kennedy straightened out. The only way to do it is to pitch him.
They have to know if he can get going. Skipping him doesn’t accomplish that objective.
i dont know who decides what makes it on here or what the criteria is, but i made a joke before about joes comment (patterson for president) transposing DAVID patterson and saying what a great thing it would be for a man of his race and with his handicap to become president.
it was neither off-color nor racist in any way and ended with GOD BLESS AMERICA, but apparently didnt pass muster with the PC Police. it also has to make you wonder whether the monitor has read a newspaper in the past year.
sad to see the censors step in where they are not called for.
SJ
DO you go to the U baseball games?
“Mussina has been the most overrated pitcher in baseball for at least the past ten years.”
ummm… wood, prior, johnny cueto, pavano ring any bells?
The problem with your theory, LathamJoe, is innings limits. The theory is that with young pitchers, you can’t increase their workloads by more than 30-40 innings per year.
If they were even considering Joba as a starter next year, and that means at least being able to throw 180 innings next year, they HAD to get him up to 140 or so innings for this year. You can’t get to 140 as a set-up man.
Committing to Joba as the 8th inning guy this season would have meant committing to him throwing no more than 140 innings (max) next year, which meant, again, he couldn’t start the year in the rotation.
It was now or never.
I firmly believe that the plan from March 1 was to transition Joba in the Majors this year to the rotation so that his innings would end up as close to 140 as possible.
Mitch
Girardi said you can’t skip pitchers, give them occasional work and expect them to perform. They want to give Kennedy consistant work to see if this is going to work this year.
CB
Does Pete pay you by the word?
SJ,
I see your point (re getting IPK straightened out). But, they’re in a tailspin now. Maybe now is not the time to throw out a starter with an 8 ERA if you don’t have to.
But, if you go with the premise that the future trumps this year 100 percent, then your theory is correct. It’s important to see if IPK can do it in the Bigs.
I have only gone to 6 UM games this year. I usually go to at least half the games each year. Just haven’t been in town as much as usual for this time of year.
“Why is IPK starting tonight? It makes absolutely no sense, unless Wang is too injured to take his start. ”
Girardi has already addressed this issue last week.
He wants to try to get Kennedy on track. They were at least encouraged by the fact that he threw strikes his last start.
Skipping his start this turn in the rotation is only going to hurt him because then he is going to have 10 days off between starts.
Not good for a young pitcher trying to get into a rhythm to have that many days off.
With Igawa bombing, Steve White pitching poorly, Hughes hurt and Horne still coming back from injury there are no good other candidates for the 5th spot in the rotation (until joba transitions).
Skipping Kennedy’s start would be short sited. Like it or not he’s needed right now.
I want Joba in the rotation, I’m just curious why there was all the static from the team about this.
I don’t see what is wrong with being upfront about their plans.
I can see how guys in the media are getting tired of the way the Yankees are delivering the information this season.
pat,
If you don’t care for what I write don’t read it. I generally try to have reasons behind what I write so I back up my opinions with evidence.
It’s a blog. No paper wasted. That’s the beauty of the internet.
Not everyone’s going to be interested in what I have to say. That’s fine by me.
By all means don’t read if you don’t care for it.
It’s not going to affect me one way or another.
I’m sorry if I’m missing something, but how can anyone argue this is not a smart move. A no brainer. Starters have more value then relievers. A Joba in the pen has no value in games they are losing (with the starters now, is often the case).
Plus, at some point they had to get his innings up or this problem would be reoccuring.
Pens a very dynamic. Even good ones, roles often change or evolve. I’m sure when this season is over regardless of results this will be looked at as a great move and great timing.
Hamfighter, all those guys went down with injuries. I object to longevity trumping all other HOF criteria, which is the only way Mussina will get in. He’s been a good pitcher, but nothing special. At least Don Sutton managed ONE 20-win season.
Mussina is vastly overrated.
I used to go all the time. They have had some great teams over the years. I wish we could get Alonso. He is exactly what we need.
if the media is steamed about joe g. not disclosing the entire gameplan on joba was, they are a victim of thier own stupid expectaions. all year they have been told that the plan was for him to start in the bp and move to the rotaion. they have remained true to thier word, but that was never enough for the press. they wanted innings counts and dates or else the team was ‘holding out’ info.
this is plainly ridiculous. they are doing now EXACTLY what they said they would do, sorry they didnt announce it in advance so the press could make the opposition aware of his availability just so you could sell more papers. the plan was left open and flexible dependant on so many other factors including how many innings he pitched up to which point in the season, which was unknowable coming into the season.
glove I disagree the media most writers, sherman, madden,king, bondy, etc.. they think they own the team..
the yanks do not need to reveal there plans in advance to these guys.
if the yanks think melancon is the 8th inning solution it serves them no purpose to inform the media in advance. besides whatever they do these expert columnists(joke) will disagree because they think they are smarter anyway.
Girardi is doing a fine job Pope Torre had his minions, they same guys who laughed at his hiring……
its close to 3am where i’m at…
sorry, to go off topic here, but i did i just hear that Moises Alou is injured again?
jeez.
Mitch,
They really don’t have any choice right now. He has to pitch and he has to be able to get over this hump or, he is a career AAA-AAAA pitcher. IMO, he’s better than that.
Every team, even the Yankees, have to retool.
Unfortunately, neither ownership, the fan base, or the media allows them to say the words, “transition year”.
Its why one should never listen to the words of Girardi,
Cashman or Hank. Follow the actions. That tells you all you need to know about the direction of the team.
Giving two kids a shot in the rotation.
Transitioning Joba.
All of the aggressive pitching promotions in the minors this early in the season.
Not adding a big contract this season and waiting for all the money to come off the books after the season.
All signs of a “transition year”.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be exciting and it doesn’t mean they can’t win. Just means, this is the year to transition for the future. IMO, its the correct strategy.
The Red Sox did it in 2005 and 2006. They didn’t give up a bounty or take on the money of Bobby Abreu.
They survived Lucchino trying to force Theo out after ’05, and not making the playoffs in ’06.
They held to their plan and look at the results.
The Yankees are now doing the same thing. Fans will yell. Talk show hosts will go nuts but, its not changing.
Mainly because, not only are the GM and manager on board with it but, (more importantly) so are Hank and Hal.
Its the right way to go and it will pay off big in the long run.
In all of the quotes folks parse from Hank, everybody missed this gem from him in an interview he gave (I think it was to the Post) prior to the end of spring training:
“This is the year to get us. After this year, our future is as bright as anybody’s in baseball”.
He’s telling you point blank how they feel internally about the team.
WB –
I don’t have a problem with Joba to the rotation, but the “anti” argument usually presents exhibit A as Kyle Farnsworth and exhibit B as LaTroy “can’t hit the broad side of a left fielder” Hawkins.
Like I said, I don’t buy this argument, but there it is.
“So does Jamie Moyer make the Hall just because he refuses to retire? Mussina has been the most overrated pitcher in baseball for at least the past ten years. Orel Hershiser was better. Tommy John was better. Tiant was WAY better. Even Fat Boy Wells was better. All Mussina’s ever done is to be above average for a long time. Thank God Carl Everett got that base hit.”
Sorry to inform you but you are wrong. Mussina is/was a better pitcher than all of those guys. The numbers back it up.
Look at all of those pitchers numbers on baseball reference and compare them with Moose’s career and then tell me who’s better.
G Love,
I know you were asking Pete how he feels, but it’s really no secret in all of sports that coaches, managers, and front offices hold their cards close to their vest, defer, misdirect, or outright lie.
I don’t think a single writer there that night didn’t see through the ruse. There’s no way that Joba was staying in the pen, especially after Moose’s outing (not sure on the timing, but we could be talking about Andy as well).
I don’t think they were offended. Well, maybe they felt that Girardi was insulting their intelligence. But managers do it all the time, even Torre.
Way to step up yet again D-Raz!
Keep doin what your doin. Lets hope the bats wake up!
http://thefinalseason.blogspot.com/
Alou left the game with a leg injury.. is that a suprise????
Zach,
Didn’t you hear? They shut down Gagne with “shoulder tightness”.
Zach-yes. Moises is hurt again
Shoulder tightness for Gagne? I didn’t know that poking yourself in the butt with a syringe was an effective shoulder stretching technique.
re: alou, at least he didnt get eaten by his stationary bike this time.
i joke but it is a shame about his being so injury prone. especially b/c he is exactly the kind of guy the mets needed, a CLUTCH hitter who is not a headcase.
when i think of how bad things are going for us, i tune in the mets or tigers and it cheers me up!
Mike and the Mad Dog is a must-listen today.
Mike: This i-dear that Job-er is somehow better in the rotation than the bullpen is rediculous. We saw-er something special as a reliever, they have the best 8th-9th in baseball. He is exactly like Goose Gossage where he can go 2-3 innings but then runs out of gas. Leave him alone.
Dog: Mike, I agree… What are the Yankees doing? You’re doing Yankee haters like myself a favor. He can’t be a starter, he was lit up by Manhattan!
They just did a little segment on espnews.
Paraphrasing, “Hank kicked and screamed to have Joba in the rotation. Called anyone who wanted him in the bullpen an idiot. Hank gets his way.”
Then they showed Girardi’s postgame clip confirming the transition, stretching him out until he can get to the number of pitches they need.
Showed a quote from Joba. He’s ready mentally, it’s just a matter of getting his legs under him. That last part sound familiar?
SJ,
I agree 100 percent that this is a transition year. I agree with your whole list.
They are, however, trying to win this year, too. Skipping IPK helps them right now. And you can make an argument that giving Kennedy some time between starts is a good thing (it didn’t hurt Rasner last night). But, again, I agree with you that from a strictly long-term perspective, forgetting about the current rut, it absolutely makes sense to throw IPK out there ever five days (or so) and see what happens for a while.
anyone know that phone # for MMD. i think we need to represent today and not let them and thier sycophants crap all over our team.
SJ – You are completely correct and I have been posting now for some time that this is a transition year for the Yankees. I live in Boston and have been through the Red Sox transition which has worked out very well.
It just takes a couple years for all of the contracts to be purged, for the focus on the farm and International Free Agents to have an impact on the big club.
There is a lot of talk about CC this summer and it is intriguing because you don’t sacrifice the farm system.
The potential candidates for the rotation in the coming 2 years:
Wang, CC, Joba, Hughes, Horne, Sanchez, Garcia, Brackman, Kennedy, Heredia, Macalister, Betances, Viazcaino (admittedly the last few are a bit further away).
Potential relief pitchers: Mo, Melancon, Cox, Robertson, Ramirez, Patterson, Mccuthceon, Veras, Wright, Whelan
Potential positinal players: c – Posada, Romine, Montero (probably the no. 1 prospect for the Yankees next year), 1b Miranda, Duncan, Duncan, Laird, Montero (worst position by far), 2b – Cano, Snyder, SS – Jeter, Angelini, Pirela 3b – Arod OF – Melky, Tabata, Jackson, Gardner, Curtis, Almonte
Utility – Hilligoss, Sublett, Attorney General.
This is all in house. Undoubtedly there will be trades, signings, drafts suprises etc.
We are about a year or two behind the Sox but the plan must stay on course.
hf, the best thing that you could do is just not listen.
“when i think of how bad things are going for us, i tune in the mets or tigers and it cheers me up!”
The difference between the organizations is much, much greater than what it appears at the major league levels.
There’s no doubt that the yankee’s best days are in front of them. The system is stacked and only getting better.
Dombrowski bet the farm on winning this year. He traded nearly every decent prospect they have.
The tigers just moved Willis to the bull pen. That’s how bad it is. They signed him to that enormous extension (because they traded most of their good young pitchers) and now he’s in the pen.
The mets have a terrible farm system. Omar has just ignored it. If they don’t win now they’re in for a tough few years going forward.
I still cant figure out what the rotation is right now. I know its Wang, Petitte, Mussina, and Rasner but who is 5?? Thats the reason I am happy they are moving Joba. I am not sold on Rasner yet either as he like Kennedy must rely on pinpoint control (because neither throws hard) to be effective. Now I would like to see Joe lead off Jeter and bat AROD 3rd
Old Yanks Fan -
I should have added to my post regarding sentiment that if Andy or Mussina is back it’s because the Yankees feel they add value. If Bernie had value, he would have been offered a contract as well. My point was, no one’s coming back just because he’s liked, or just so they can be in the new stadium when it opens.
I do agree that neither Andy nor Moose has to be a great pitcher to have value to the Yankees, and you stated the reason: there are advantages to having veterans, solid veterans, around a rotation of young, inexperienced pitchers.
Re WFAN today dont forget it is thursday so Joe will be on at 505. I will have it on mute most of the day but will isten to that. I cant stand to hear Russo speak Jaah-Baaa name incorrectly the whole day
“He wants to try to get Kennedy on track. They were at least encouraged by the fact that he threw strikes his last start.”
Was he at all discouraged that some of those strikes were crushed??? I’m not ready to call him a AAAA pitcher yet, but with his stuff, he really has to be pretty damn fine to succeed at this level…….or get six inches off the plate like Glavine has for the past 15 years or so.
Good morning to all,
First id like to say damn it feels good to see the offense clicking for once.
Secondly, Why is everyone comparing Rasner to Chacon and Small? Thats an insult. If i can recall they were 5th starters. Rasner is our ACE. So nomore of that nonsense.
Can we stop the Gardner arguement. He is not the next coming of Willie Mays. But he brings something we dont have. Speed,spark and patience at the plate.
SJ,
I was just wondering if you had anyone that we might know that played with your minor league team or against your team?
TWO MORE MINUTES
“when i think of how bad things are going for us, i tune in the mets or tigers and it cheers me up!”
especially in the case of detroit… who would have thunk that immediately after signing Cabrera to a mega-deal, they would be forced to change his position to first because he is a defensive liability?
bad things do not only happen to the yankees.
…i’ve been told that my schadenfreude may get me into trouble.
Mike Mussina has one of the best winning percentages. Go read On The Black, it will really open your eyes as to how great he was in his prime.
Every team tries to win Mitch. You also have to be realistic.
Beneath the bowels of the stadium, away from fans, media and talk show hosts, the brass on this club knows what its up against.
Giambi and Damon are shells of their former selves.
Pettitte and Moose get by more on guile than stuff these days. Neither are sure things.
Abreu? With Arod in the lineup=Good Abreu. Without? An awful player.
Cano? Talented but not yet ready to assume greater responsibility.
The kids (Hughes and Kennedy)? Taking their lumps.
The bench? Awful.
Doesn’t leave a lot of functioning parts for a ticker tape parade.
The good news is, aside from Boston and Anaheim, the AL isn’t that hot this year.
The bad news? Between an old, and unathletic roster, shaky starting pitching and the needs of rookies to get their feet wet, its awfully tough to win.
Like I said, doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Its just tough.
Put it another way. I’d rather have the Yankees future right now than the Tigers. The Tigers are a REAL mess.
The Yankees? A year away from being able to really retool the club.
In the meantime, we just have to hope the kids continue to improve. Both at the major and minor league levels.
They are the future of the franchise.
Brandon even though i’m sure it will drive me nuts. I am going to put them on today.
This should be an interesting show today. I wish I had some popcorn.
Maybe we will get lucky and crazy Steve will chime in from Bellevue Hospital
“I’m not ready to call him a AAAA pitcher yet, but with his stuff, he really has to be pretty damn fine to succeed at this level…….or get six inches off the plate like Glavine has for the past 15 years or so.”
Do you think that Kennedy has equal/worse/better stuff than Rasner? I think Kennedy has better stuff than Rasner and if Rasner can succeed then so can Ian. IMO
Brandon,
What’s in two minutes?
ham-718-937-6666
NOT SO FAST, DOC! accents are just anudda thing what makes nyc the greatest!
Yeah, meathead! now i gotta go visit the terlet!
hehehehe, im wif dem! who am i??? i am elmer j. fudd, miwyonare, i own a mansion and a yacht!
Mel-
Fatso and Fruitloops.
fatso will either take the postion that the Yankees are crazy to move such a lights out guy out of the 8th inning. Or that he knew all along that the Yankees would and should move such a lights out guy to the starting rotation.
I’m banking on Mike and Chris saying Hank forced Cashman’s hand with this decision. lol
The simplest argument would be to bring up Lincecum. Would Russo rather have Lincecum in the 8th inning?
jax or that could be the third option.
Today might be a good day to have a “Manhattan game” Drinking game.
If only I brought some vodka with me to work…
Re: Gardner. I didn’t read it, but there was an article about how Elsbury is creating havoc on the basepads and opening up the offense for the Sox.
Now I’m not saying Gardner’s Elsbury, but he’s as close to it as we have.
I don’t know how Gardner is at getting on base, but he could be a candidate for the leadoff spot. You know, if that whole Johnny Damon thing doesn’t work out.
If we have games like yesterday, not a problem. But sometimes you have to create. Just a thought.
SOS,
JD Drew played with one of our teams for awhile. So did his brother.
Doc Holliday, BJ Ryan, Moose, Dave Steib, Al Leiter, just a few of the guys that played for some of our teams over the years.
Well the Mets also have 3 picks before the second round this year.
I’m not exactly sure why this is such huge news, the Yankees have said it since last year that Joba was going to be a starter.
Well fruitloops said the yankees are nuts they have NO ONE to pitch the 8th. Never mind all the kids they’ve promoted over the last few weeks.
Jennifer,
Thanks. I can listen online, but I’d rather read the comments about the show.
Go Brandon! Go Jennifer!
TurnTwo,
Per the in-game stadium replays, I was at the Nats-Phils game last night in DC and they showed plenty of in-game replays on their gigantic new HD scoreboard.
As for Joba/Hank: This plan has little to do with Hank as it was put in place months ago as a way to maximize Joba’s impact while still keeping him on a innings limit. The only people who thought that Joba was staying in the ‘pen were simpletons or people that had their head in the sand.
The plan was announced months ago people!!!!
“Secondly, Why is everyone comparing Rasner to Chacon and Small? Thats an insult. If i can recall they were 5th starters. Rasner is our ACE. So nomore of that nonsense.”
Ummm, Small started out 8-0. I hope Rasner insults us with that kind of performance! Then we can deal with the aesthetics.
starting off with Joba!
Russo-”I wouldn’t do it this way. The Yankees are playing with fire”
Ha I knew it. Francesa now claiming Hank somehow forced this move.
Fatso doesn’t know what kind of starting pitcher he’d be. Um check his stats from the minors. Not that difficult, although your fat fingers might not be able to hit all the keys.
AHHH JAX you hit the nail on the head. IT is Hank. HEY MORON!! They’ve said it since last year, JOBA IS GOING TO START! Had nothing to do with HANK! How does this guy have a radio program?
“Well the Mets also have 3 picks before the second round this year.”
The mets have drafted terribly under Omar. Terribly. And they’ve never gotten the committment from ownership to pay over slot.
There was some thinking that the mets would be more aggressive with the draft this year but word is not they are not going to pay over slot again.
“I’ve said it before, I’m not for this.”
“I think it’s a mistake” “I wanted them to get a veteran pitcher” (Arroyo)
-Mike Francessa
If anyone wants to follow along:
http://mikefrancesa.com/forums.....php?t=3938
Looks can be deceiving Fatso
Francesa couldn’t be more wrong. The plan to make Joba was put in place before Hank even had control of the team.
Geez, keep throwing it against the wall Mike. Maybe something will stick.
“He was a supplemental pick” – Chris Wusso
rbizzler
Actually the plan was from last Sept, it was only laid out in Feb.
They still don’t get that he could throw 95 in the 7th inning.
I dont’ know how much longer I can listen. 3 minutes into it and I am already going nuts.
And a panic move!?? What they said last night that this was their plan. How is it a panic move?
2 months from now, Francessa will be taking credit for supporting this move.
I guarantee it.
S.A.
The thing about playing with fire, is it can be spectacular and exciting. Watch this team respond to Alex’s return and Joba, Joba, Joba. (if I’m wrong, then I don’t know what can fix this team).
Okay now Russo is dissing Joba? “He wasn’t a first round pick”
Seriously who cares what round he went in. This isn’t the NBA.
Blanton and YOYO. PLEASE!! WE GOT JOBA!
Listening to Russo rip Joba on his college career is too funny.
Have him pop in the tape of Joba’s start against the University of Miami in the Super Regionals and tell me he wasn’t “good” in his college career.
He’s had more than 45 innings in the minor leagues (which Russo is saying). The guy is just out of his mind.
Watch when Joba has a bad outting Fatso will be complaining that he can’t do it.
Did he just say the bullpen is more important than the starters?
oh. my. god
Pete,
You need to start a MM&D live blogging thread. Too funny.
“Ha I knew it. Francesa now claiming Hank somehow forced this move.”
Have to admit the timing of this (following losing a series to the Mets and an embarassing 12-0 loss to the O’s)lends his theory a little credence.
That said, I seem to recall the plan calling for Joba to be in the rotation by mid-late June, which is the way this should play out.
Does fatso realize that the 8th inning isn’t very important if you aren’t leading?
Sorry, but I’ve disagreed all along with the plan to “force-feed” Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain into the starting rotation in 2008.
Examine their college careers, High School and lower Minors in Hughes’ case. Of the three, Kennedy is probably the most prepared to throw a 180 inning Season. But his “stuff” is the lesser of the Big 3 and it certainly has showed at the MLB level. So much so, that it appears he’s lacking confidence and missing the strike zone.
Had this been declared a rebuilding year from the start with lower expectations, I could see gradually easing Hughes and Kennedy in with Joba to follow.
But this current Yankee roster is filled with mostly older veterans supposedly at the peak of their respective careers…so winning everything is their emphasis in 2008 – especially with The Owners.
mel
YOu are right, reading the blog about people ripping them is better than listening.
Pete,
You REALLY need to get a spot and/or call into this show. These two are out of control. How is this even allowed to happen? lol
Mike A over at RAP put up all of Joba’s game log performances from last year as a starter.
Here is the evidence of what he’s done as a starter. It’s just awesome:
Started the year with High-A Tampa
May 7th: 4 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 5 K, 4-3 GB/FB
May 12th: 5 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 4 BB, 6 K, 4-4 GB/FB
May 17th: 5 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 5 K, 1 WP, 1 HB, 6-4 GB/FB
May 22nd: 6 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 7 K, 9-1 GB/FB
May 27th: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 9 K, 9-5 GB/FB
June 2nd: 7 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 BB, 10 K, 1 WP, 8-3 GB/FB
June 7th: 5 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 9 K, 2-3 GB/FB
Promoted to Double-A Trenton
June 12th: 5 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 9 K, 4-2 GB/FB
June 17th: 6 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 8 K, 2 HB, 3-7 GB/FB
June 22nd: 5.2 IP, 5 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 3 BB, 9 K, 2 WP, 3-4 GB/FB
June 28th: 5 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 4 BB, 10 K, 1 WP, 2-3 GB/FB
July 3rd: 6 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 12 K, 5-1 GB/FB
July 14th: 7 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 9 K, 7-5 GB/FB
July 21st: 4.2 IP, 9 H, 7 ER, 3 BB, 7 K
Promoted to Triple-A Scranton
July 26th: 5 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 10 K
Totals:
84.1 IP, 61 H, 24 ER, 27 BB, 117 K
He was on a strict pitch limit in all starts. The reason why he only went 5-6 innings in some starts was because he struck out so many hitters. He struck out 38% of all hitters he faced – by far the highest in the majors.
Joba didn’t tire – he was throwing 97-98 from pitches 90-100 just as he did when he started the games.
http://riveraveblues.com/2008/.....ment-84889
keith,
anyone who disagrees with them, won’t be able to get a word in edgewise.
i totally disagree with mike, but he has a solid basis for what he says, he’s not saying anything stupid, he just disagrees with the move.
russo is an idiot, but that is really his role on the show. THE CLOWN.
Oh agreed mel!
“TKinDC May 22nd, 2008 at 1:12 pm
2 months from now, Francessa will be taking credit for supporting this move.
I guarantee it.”
I remember before Joba came up last season. Someone called the week before and mentioned Joba and Fatcessa was all like I have no idea who that is. What are you talking about. About a week after Joba was up here, Fatcessa was singing his praises and was saying he knew all along…
Whatever!
I was gonna post that CB
You guys need to go to mikefrancessa.com and read along the live threads they have on the show. Hilarious!
“The mets have drafted terribly under Omar. Terribly. And they’ve never gotten the committment from ownership to pay over slot.
There was some thinking that the mets would be more aggressive with the draft this year but word is not they are not going to pay over slot again.”
They have a good opportunity to turn that around this year. Omar may blow it, but he has a very good chance of a great college hitter falling to him at 18. It would be pretty damning of Minaya if he managed to screw this draft up.
I have a quick question for those in the know. It may sound weird, but do the Yankees scout themselves? I am referring to Cleveland knowing what Joba would throw. If they looked at their own tendencies just like another club would, they might be able to address issues before they become a problem.
Just a thought
SJ44,
Great stuff as usual… I always enjoy reading your posts… Agree completely!
but the mets refuse to pay over slot for the premium talent… that is their issue, and why having 3 picks doesnt mean as much as if the yankees, or tigers, etc, had them.
SJ,
Not a bad list of players. Out of all youv named. Which player surprised you by their major league success later on? Which one was a slam dunk success in the making?
Sorry for being a pain about this. Young players developing into studs intrigue me. I watched Ken Griffey Jr. when he was in A ball with the S.B.Spirits. He was the real deal then.
I was at the May 22-June 7 starts.
On May 27, the last hitter he faced that night saw a 99 MPH heater, a 98 MPH heater, and strike 3 was an 89 MPH slider.
For those who think he can’t hold velocity later in games, all I can say is, you haven’t seen him pitch as a starter.
It was REMARKABLE to see how well his stuff held up in his later innings.
Jennifer,
So last September wasn’t months ago? (kidding)
My point was that this shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone, maybe only simpletons and people that have their heads in the sand.
And attributing this plan to Hank b/c he knows more about baseball and player development than them is laughable.
The Yanks baseball operations should be commended for being progressive about Joba and maximizing his MLB impact.
Of course, the two radio idiots are too stupid to see it that way. Shocking news, I know.
Anyway, i look forward to watching Joba develop as a starter.
SJ44,
You’re preaching to the choir here. But I feel for the souls who take M&MD’s word as GOSPEL.
If somebody decides to call in, maybe they should remind those idiots that just because they have a large venue to voice their opinions, it doen’t make them right or valuable.
BTW, I just read through the comments in this post, and murphydog nailed it again. I loved the analogy of older adults without children. Beautiful point, murph.
On the topic of excellent comments: I don’t care what their critics on here may say – I look forward to every post by guys like SJ, CB, and whozat (among others). The ladies on here are knowledgable and sharp as tacks as well. I love reading what Doreen, mel, gayle, and jennifer have to say, just to name a few.
I wish I had more time to converse with everyone than I have these days, but I still get enough time to read for the most part.
I read some of the posts that Joba should do mop up duties. Am i the only one who thinks that he should be pitching in tight games? Why wouldnt you pitch your best bullpen guy aside from Mo, the 7th and 8th in close games? Then up that to 3 innings and so on. I would prefer other guys do the mopping up than Joba. Maybe im missing the point.
did they just contradict thierselves ?
Atta boy caller. Call em crazy
Russo and Francesa know they are wrong. They tried to back peddle on this and hedge their bets so that they can still go with the old, “I told you so later…”
They would have been screeching about this much more otherwise in their usual way.
Francesa’s reason for seeing something Ok with the move was just silly – Joba really wants to be a starter so now its somewhat ok?
That’s exactly how a team should make personnel decisions. Let the players decide.
That’s rational. Let a 22 year old decide the direction of your franchise for he next 10 years.
Just hedging so that if he pitches well as a starter they won’t look as stupid.
I don’t want to say who disappointed me most as a player who had a ton of talent but didn’t make it.
That particular player had the kind of off field issues that would hold back a lot of people.
Two players I will always remember. Doc, because of his tireless work ethic.
He wasn’t some amazing arm in the minors. There were guys in the organization who had more stuff and more talent. He was ok, not great. But, he outworked everybody.
Even when he got to the majors and struggled, being sent down to A Ball at one point, there was no hangdog in him.
He was determined to be great. He was a guy, like Jeter, who was determined to be great. He was not satisfied to merely make it. He wanted to dominate.
The best player I have ever been around in the minors was Arod. He was amazing.
Another guy who wanted to be great. Even though he had amazing talent, his work ethic trumped his talent. He was determined to be great.
That’s what the great one’s have and what it distinguishes guys who go to Cooperstown and guys who don’t.
“I read some of the posts that Joba should do mop up duties.”
He mopped up last night, the ordained “beginning of the process”. Made we wonder how they intended to approach it going forward.
Is it safe to say Mike has never heard of Melancon?
oh that caller Alex was a genius
“Is it safe to say Mike has never heard of Melancon?”
I would say yes. I can’t wait to hear how they pronounce his name.
Jax,
Yes. Fair assumption.
Someone call up and ask Mad dog if the Giants should move cain to the pen, he could be their closer.
Or if the mets should move Santana to set up Wagner. What a one two punch that would be!!
Michael Kay will probably talk against it on his radio show too and then tonight on the Yankee telecast talk about what a great decision it is.
Yankee haters are loving this?
I didn’t realize starting pitching wasn’t important. That you Mike and Chris for edumacating me…..
Not
These guys are pissing me off.
Answer me this: do you want Johan Santana the starter or Joba Chamberlain the reliever on your team? You can only have one. The rest of your team is mediocre.
Simple. You want the starter.
Francesa to a caller: “You are judging a team on what they have been. Not what they will be”?
Huh? Isn’t the point that you have to judge where the team is now?
Does this clown think this team is just going to get better because he says so?
Does he even watch the games?
……………Mets need relief pitching. If hitters only see Johan Santana for 1 inning, he will clearly be more dominant. Why aren’t the Mets moving Johan Santana to the bullpen? I JUST DON’T GET IT!!!!
To everyone who is listening to M&MD (a/k/a F&FL), just remember: ask yourself what influence do they have on what the Yankees do?
Basically, the radio show is sitting in on a couple blowhards shouting their opinions over dissenters. It’s entertainment, for some anyway, but it’s not really important. Just because they don’t think it’s a good move doesn’t make it not a good move and doesn’t make the Yankees change their minds. Or vice versa. It’s like you and your brother-in-law arguing over a beer – only you and your brother-in-law probably have more facts!
Just wanted to give you all who get so upset by these guys something to think about to calm yourselves.
At least Singleton and Kay bought up the possibility that the Yankees have other options for the eighth in their system. These two are totally ignoring that possibility. Both of them think this is the NFL and there is no minor league system.
“Does this clown think this team is just going to get better because he says so?”
SJ44- I honestly think he does. Scary
“Is it safe to say Mike has never heard of Melancon?”
Probably.
I’m not listening to them, but if they are arguing the 8th inning pitching will suffer, they are correct. Nobody remotely close to Joba’s talent level will be filling that spot. I think they can find 1-2 in the lot of guys they have to fill the role and succeed more times than not, but it’s not money in the bank anymore. There is no “next Joba”.
Still, this is the right thing. Even as I believe Joba will have some growing pains as a starter this year, having him good to go as a starter to begin ’09 is paramount.
That last segment lost me. I had enough of my radio accident today.
Its one thing to be uninformed. Lazy but, those guys egos are so large, they don’t care about being uninformed.
Its another thing to be dumb. Now, they are drifting into the dumb zone.
Listening to dumb talk radio dulls the senses. I’ll pass for the rest of the day.
Mike Francessa is also banking on the other Yankee relievers not being able to get the job done. Maybe not with the dominance that Joba can… but they will.
Joba’s future is to close for Mo. Um Mo is here the next 3 years, so Joba should carry Mo’s bags for the next 3 years.
UGH!!!
Yankees: “We are grooming Joba to be a starter. This is the beginning”
Mike F: “Joba will be the next Mariano. That is his role”
He must know something we don’t.
“Francesa to a caller: “You are judging a team on what they have been. Not what they will beâ€?”
Even better – isn’t that exactly the mistake they are making with joba?
They’ve only seen him in the relief role so therefore he can only relieve.
What’s he’s been – not what he could be.
That’s the crux of the argument for keeping him in the pen.
It’s as if there’s no way to make a reasoned assumption that a pitcher with a career minor league starter with a K:BB of 4.3: 1, a WHIP of 1 and who gets close to 60% of his batted balls as grounders if going to be a strong starting pitcher.
“He will not be better as a SP than he was as a CL”
-FatBoy
Did you know Joba isn’t going to be better as a starter than he is as a reliever. no ‘it sherlock!
Wow Mike is so brillant. No one is saying that Joba will be better, he will be better than what they have.
And you know something else i’ve learned. Every pitcher that comes up to the majors should just relieve, since we have no idea how they will be as a starter.
omg..lol
Beware of the 8th inning everyone.
“He must know something we don’t.”
he has a mask and a gun somewhere
Fredo,
A year ago at this time, there weren’t too many people predicting a kid in A ball in Tampa, who was drafted the year before, would become a lights out 8th inning guy by late July for the Yankees.
I wouldn’t be so quick to say they don’t have another guy waiting in the wings to do the job.
IMO, Mark Melancon will end up being the 8th inning by the start of the second half of the season.
If that occurs, he will be as good as Joba was in that role. He’s that good.
Until then, its mix and match. If Melancon stays healthy, he’s gonna be the guy.
If things break the right way for the Yankees this year, folks will be talking about “all their young pitching talent” in September instead of talking about how dumb they are for taking Joba out of the rotation.
SOmeone call please!! tell this morons that Joba was throwing 98 in the 7th. PLEASE!!!
i think you guys are really overduing it. parsing every word these guys say is ridiculous. sure, dog is a known hater and will say anything that puts the yankees in a bad light, we know that coming in. mike has a different opinion than i do, but hes certainly entitiled. saying that hank forced the move cant be proved or disproved, and if he thinks an 8th inning guy can influence more games than a starter he’s not the only one who thinks so. he has been fixated on joba taking over for mo and he’s entitled to think that, teams all over mlb have been shuttling SP’s and closers back and forth the past couple of years.
lighten up, folks, time will tell who is right and im confident that putting him in the rotation is the right thing to do, others disagree, nobody is right or wrong at this point.
this reminds me of the santana debate, i was against the trade, but anyone who comes on this board and says they should have is mercilessly beaten about the head and shoulders. hey, we’re allowed to have different opinions. time will tell who was right and nobody is right (or wrong)all the time (okay, mad dog does come close to being wrong all the time)
Ha hilarious “what happens if he gives up 6 runs in 5 innings?” “I would think you have to move him back to the pen.”
And to think baseball is suppose to be their expertise.
Oh and Hawkins is our 8th inning guy. This according to fatboy.
saying that hank forced the move cant be proved or disproved,
Over course it could be disproved. When Joba was brought up last year they said he was going to be a starter next year (meaning this year). When spring training started this year, they said he was going to start. Has nothing to do with Hank zip zero zilch.
This really is too funny. Even though my blood pressure is going up while listening to them..I am also sitting here laughing
SJ:
Actually, after the Hawaiian league, there was a lot of rumbling of how special he could be and hwo fast it could happen.
I’ve heard nobody say Melancon is anywhere near that class. Doesn’t make him bad or unworthy, but Joba-type talent comes along once or a twice a decade. Melancon-type talent comes a lot more often than that. It’s a downgrade no matter how one looks at it, but it’s one we should have no problem with.
Well, lets be fair. Their “expertise” is not limited to baseball.
They both also said Eli Manning was not a leader and didn’t have what it takes to win a Super Bowl.
They were firmer on that “fact” than they are on Joba.
How did that turn out?
Its the great thing about sports. You can’t predict it.
Those that do, especially on the air, do it at their own peril.
This caller was responding to mad dogs comments and mike jumps all over him.
Mike is an idiot. Are you telling me that Joba starting his year, is a foundation for next year?
UM YEAH!
And Girardi doesn’t want to do it. Joe KNEW when he became manager that this was the plan. HE is on board.
“hey, we’re allowed to have different opinions. time will tell who was right”
Time will tell whether a move worked out or not, but there’s certainly a right and a wrong decision at the time.
I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I have a problem with people holding strong yet uninformed opinions. If you could have given me reason to believe that the 2007 Yankees were one dominant starter away from winning the world series again…ok, I’d see your point about needing to make any move necessary to get Johan. Since that wasn’t true, the only way to return to a sustainable model of success was to keep Hughes (given his combination of command and stuff, a really great prospect to bet on) and Melky and wait out some of your really bad contracts so you can retool.
Typical of them Jennifer. Anyone who calls up with logic gets jumped on.
“They both also said Eli Manning was not a leader and didn’t have what it takes to win a Super Bowl.”
Preponderance of the evidence actually supported this theory for most of Eli’s career.
jen, i gotta disagree there re: hank’s influence on the move. im not saying hank forced the move, but you cant deny that the move was made right at the (hopefully) low point of the season, and even sj44 and i advocated making the move yesterday, at least partly to try to get things moving in a different direction. hank or no hank, the perception among alot of ppl is going to be that he forced the move. it doesnt matter anyway, cause neither side will be proven right or wrong anytime soon.
Fredo,
There was no rumbling about Joba to the bullpen off his Hawaiian stint. He had buzz but, nobody was talking about putting him in the bullpen in NY at that time.
That’s not true re: Melancon. Even as early as this spring, while he was rehabbing, Pete wrote about how he was in the mix for the 8th inning spot when they transitioned Joba.
Yankee people spent the spring raving about him.
Tony Franklin, the Trenton Manager, has already said he “can pitch in the majors right now”, and he’s only had 2 AA appearances.
There has been a ton of buzz on Melancon. Just not from folks like Bill Madden and Mike and the Mad Dog. The “old guard”, if you will.
Guys like Pete, Kepner, and Feinsand have been on this since ST. I think Sweeney has also.
So now starting pitching is more important than the 8th inning guy? What? lol
“This caller was responding to mad dogs comments and mike jumps all over him.”
“La Familia protects”
Ham Fighter: “lighten up, folks, time will tell who is right and im confident that putting him in the rotation is the right thing to do, others disagree, nobody is right or wrong at this point.”
No one is criticizing their conviction that Joba should stay in the penn. We are criticizing their reasoning. They are saying things that are borderline maddening. Let me paraphrase:
“Joba shouldn’t be a starter because he wouldn’t be as dominant as he is as a reliever” – completely ignoring the importance of starting pitching over an 8th inning guy.
“Joba has almost no AAA experience as a starter which means he should be a reliever” – is he f*#$& kidding?!
“Joba is a high energy guy, and high energy guys aren’t starters” – um, wrong.
“Joba is no guarantee to be a good starter (despite his AMAZING minor league record – which doesn’t count) but he is a guarantee to be good in the 8th, so he shouldn’t start” – so, because Babe Ruth was successful as a pitcher, he should have never been moved to hitting because we can’t tell how he is going to hold up.
“I’ve heard nobody say Melancon is anywhere near that class. Doesn’t make him bad or unworthy, but Joba-type talent comes along once or a twice a decade. Melancon-type talent comes a lot more often than that. It’s a downgrade no matter how one looks at it, but it’s one we should have no problem with.”
Yeah, people were talking about how Joba could be a special starter. We’re talking about Melancon being a special reliever. It doesn’t take as much talent to be a special reliever. So, of course Melancon’s not in Joba’s class. But he’s plenty good to be a setup man, possibly even an elite one.
They are idiots
IF IT DOESN’T WORK THEY CAN PUT HIM BACK IN THE BULLPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wolf,
Thanks for the nice thoughts. We miss you here.
p.s. (Don’t forget Rebecca…)
“hank or no hank, the perception among alot of ppl is going to be that he forced the move.”
So…the team making a move that they’d planned to make (and stated publicly that they WOULD make) at a time that makes sense, given the number of innings he’s had a chance to throw so far and the target number they have in mind for him is somehow being “forced” on them? It’s just stupid. The whole “division at the top” idea is just a construct of the media. We’ve heard that Hank disagreed about the Santana move. But, he capitulated to the baseball people and his brother. Everything else that has happened has been internally consistent with what we know of Cash’s plan. So…what is there to really make us believe there’s this schism?
russell, sorry but just like hughes and iak, success in the minors does not guarantee success in the majors. you cant argue the fact that he IS succeeding in the bp and MAY struggle as a SP.
i just dont get caught up in what they say, i disagree with both of them and time will tell who is right, and i concede, it could turn out to be me.
David Wright clip played on the Fan “If we just weren’t good, I could put my head on my pillow and sleep well tonight”
What? Dumb.
SJ44
The yankees have Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Rasner and Kennedy in the rotation.
Then they have Chamberlain building innings to get him into the rotation.
Also have Hughes returning after the all-star break.
In addition to the re-emergence of Alan Horne, Steven White, Dan McCutheon and Dan Giese at AAA SWB all pitching well.
Those 7 pitchers including Kennedy pitching out of the 5th spot in the rotation barring injuries the second half? What happens if Kennedy turns it around?
And no room in the pen for any of the above with the emergence of B.J. Cox, David Patterson, David Robertson and Mark Melancon to work out of the pen.
A nice problem, but I don’t know how this will be accommodated. I would guess the Yankees want to promote all these pitchers this season, either to showcase them or guage where they will fit in in 2009.
“you cant argue the fact that he IS succeeding in the bp and MAY struggle as a SP.”
That is missing one major component – that he COULD struggle in the bp.
You can’t, as Mike + Mad Dog are doing, use uncertainty as a reason for not moving him. Even Joba wants to be a starter. That is what M+M are doing.
“Those 7 pitchers including Kennedy pitching out of the 5th spot in the rotation barring injuries the second half? What happens if Kennedy turns it around?”
People were pre-worrying about the glut of starters in the spring too.
These things almost always tend to work themselves out. If they don’t, you build a trade around one of them to fill some other need. Or, you hang on to it all at AAA and let Moose leave at the end of the season.
FatBoy was told just like I can’t guarantee you he can be a great SP you can’t guarantee me he’s the next great closer, FatBoy responded “oh yes I can, I can guarantee you he will be a great closer”
I saw Mark Melancon pitch in March in spring training outings and observed virtually all that a scout would be looking for and came away each time impressed.
Keeping in mind that he wasn’t yet fully stretched out according to plan, it’s no surprise what his year has been all about and about to be.
Most of all, he carries himself with a confidence that doesn’t even hint at the word “rookie”. He’s ahead of his time.