Caution for Kennedy
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- May
- 28
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Ian Kennedy has a strained latissimus dorsi muscle. It’s the same muscle A-Rod and Jorge Posada strained in spring training.
Posada said a few weeks ago that be believes compensating for his lat is what led to his rotator cuff tear. For Kennedy, it’s the second time in nine months he has suffered the same injury.
That all is a long way of saying we won’t be seeing IPK in pinstripes any time soon.
Phil Hughes is out until at least July. Kennedy could be the same. The plan to get Hughes to around 180 innings and Kennedy to 195 or so is out the window.
2008 isn’t over. But as the Yankees look at 2009, they really have some pitching issues. The three kids (Remember when people wanted to give them a nickname? What would it be now? “Generation MRI?”) will have limitations and Moose and Pettitte could be long gone.
People assume that the Yankees will throw bags of money at C.C. Sabathia. But if they didn’t do that with Johan Santana, why would that suddenly change?
This “develop the kids” stuff is hard work.
————
Mariano Rivera walked Jay Payton last night. It was the first walk he had allowed in 21.2 innings. Given that he walked him on four pitches, it looked almost intentional.
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Ross Ohlendorf’s last three appearances: 6 11 11 9 3 5 and 5 home runs. Five home runs over six innings for a sinkerball pitcher is a very bad sign. I’m of the opinion that Ohlendorf has a useful arm. But when even Joe Girardi has trouble coming up with nice things to say about you, it might be time to go to Triple-A.
————
Take away the six wins against hapless Seattle and the Yankees are 19-27. The good news is that they play Seattle three more times in September.
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on Wednesday, May 28th, 2008 at 12:20 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
“But if they didn’t do that with Johan Santana, why would that suddenly change?”
Because Sabathia only costs a 1st round pick. I dont see what the problem in paying a pitcher big money (aside from durability issues) is when you have 28 million coming off the books in Pettite and Moose.
I agree fully with Ryan. All CC sosts is money and a pick. No talent leaving the organizaton.
Its not my money, I hope they drop a Brinks truck on CC. Tex too.
Casha nd Co. are clearing all kind sof money from the books next year: Giambi, Farnsworth, Mussina, Pavano, and possibly Pettitte. That frees up a lot of pitching slots and a 1B slot. Along with cash$$$!
But for short term, the trade market is ugly.
Just saw this list at mlbtraderumors.com:
None of these pitchers who ‘could’ be availble look appetizing in the least…
“Gammons’ trade possibilities: Paul Byrd, Jeremy Sowers, Derek Lowe, Rich Harden, Odalis Perez, Brett Tomko, Jarrod Washburn, Zach Duke, Vicente Padilla, and Kevin Millwood. Byrd, Lowe, Perez, and Tomko will be free agents after the season. Sowers and Duke are the kids. Harden is the oft-injured ace. Washburn, Padilla, and Millwood bring burdensome contracts.
Gammons also lists five “unlikely, but not impossible” scenarios. He suggests A.J. Burnett, Bartolo Colon, Joe Blanton, Greg Maddux, and Ben Sheets could be moved under the right circumstances.”
The Bullpen needs to be retooled right?
Hawkins can’t be our 7th/8th inning guy, and Ross can’t pitch in the roll hes in right now.
Ryan don’t confuse Pete with that logic.
Not only did Santana want 7 yrs. but the Yanks woud only have to give up about 4 or 5 prospects, no big deal…
Peter I am not worried about next yrs staff since it will have joba, wang , and hughes to start(ain’t bad) I have not given up on Hughes a bit…..
Yeah Ohlendorff needs to find him self in SWB and that is not the worst thing in the world it happens to many many successful pitchers ask Cliff Lee!!!!!
Moose should not be back next yr under any circumstances…..Pettitte we will see how things go this yr. before making that decision…
Forgot to add… your ‘generation MRI’ comment was hilarious.
Things are egtting brutal over at Phil Hughes’ blog. He hasn’t checked in for weeks and the place is overrun with trolls and negativity.
As reported on IIH, IIF, IIc…
I think we also have to look at trading a young arm or two. You can’t just sit on your farm system and assume everyone will win a Cy Young award. You need to use them to trade for major league talent sometimes too.
What could they possibly get for Kennedy now? Urinal cakes?
Pinstripes, I agree as well. Anyone that thinks every prospect in our farm system will be the next coming of Jesus (and I don’t mean Montero!), they had better realize there will be some unfortunate failures along the way.
Did we all really think Ian, Phil and Joba would turn out to be top notch pitchers. The team would be lucky if ONE, maybe TWO of them were good, let alone great.
I won’t say I wouldn’t be happy if the Yankees send boatloads of money in the direction of CC and Tex – however – we did that already and now we have these big contracts of players we can’t move. Giambi obviously.. Mussina had 1 year and like 17 million or so for last year and they gave him a 2 year deal instead for less money. Damon.. etc etc. We’re finally getting all of these contracts off the books and I don’t see cashman just replacing them with more big contracts
IPK to the DL helps us. Joba in the rotation sooner helps us. Last night, seeing how terrible Hawkins is AND how OHLLY needs to be a 1 inning dude, HELPS US. I never like to lose games, but I see only good things moving forward as a direct result of the travesty that was ….last night.
Yeah, but I think the Yankees would be getting both Tex and CC at younger ages than when they got Giambi and Mussina.
Plus, Tex is more of a complete player than Giambi, he actually owns a glove.
He’s 28. A six or seven year deal has him in ’stripes until he’s 34 or 35. What’s Giambi, 37 ? They gave too many years to Giambi too late in his career.
Plus, at least with Tex, you know what you’ll be getting, post-steroid era.
If y’all could trade a healthy IPK to the A’s, with say two low-level A guys for Harden, would you do it? Would IPK even be enough?
Plus, do you take a gamble on Harden, with his health history?
JoeT what’s not to like in longterm contract I mean Teixeira could regress and we’d still be paying him 23 mil per year, does anyone actually think or know about the new revenue sharing plan in MLB, it’s simple teams that are above 117 million in payroll pay out a substantial amount of money to last place teams in thier league. Last year the Yankees paid out over 80 million dollars guess what teams in the AL actually used it, I’ll give you a hint it ryhmes w/ Bay…and that’s what we end up doing is fielding our competition if we’re not careful.
Let’s face it, unless they come up with something in season (unlikely), how do they not all go in for Sabathia?
Who is going to pitch innings next year? It can’t just be Wang.
CC comes with a boatload of issues. Weight, stamina, ability to pitch in a big market, etc.
But, as they say, desperate people do desperate things.
When next year comes around and you only have one starting pitcher without innings limits, you will overpay for somebody.
The irony is, with the way the season is going, that #1 pick is going to be painful to lose. Unlike this year, its a deep draft next year.
The whole pitching issue is a mess. You can forget about Hughes and Kennedy having any meaningful time in NY in the near future.
Even if they were healthy, both need more time in the minors. They aren’t nearly as accomplished as finished products as their projections.
Joba is much further along in overall pitching development. Smarts, makeup, mound presence, stuff, etc.
Neither Hughes nor Kennedy, even if healthy, are there yet.
Just gotta hope they can find ways to win ugly and stay competitive.
I don’t understand when everyone seems to agree that starting pitching is the most important determinant of how far a team advances in the playoffs how people could come to the conclusion that you can’t commit to long term contracts with elite starters under the age of 30. I would have done the Hughes/Melky deal for Santana and I’d seriously consider signing CC Sabathia.
From the outside looking in, I would have been more comfortable with Santana given Sabathia’s weight issues or potential weight issues. Nonetheless, I know I don’t have the same access to medical reports, etc that Cashman would in making these decisions. It will be interesting to see whether they go hard after Sabathia or not. I don’t know that they will but I wouldn’t read the decision to not trade for Santana as meaning its an automatic no. As others have or will say, he only costs a draft pick, is a year younger and they have a lot of expensive contracts ending this year and a potential big need for starting pitching if Moose and Pettite are gone and you still don’t know what you have in Hughes & Kennedy.
Whether they go after Sabathia or not, he certainly makes a lot more sense to me than Texeira.
I think Ohlendorff is going to a useful bullpen arm if not now then sometime down the road. I don’t really like how he’s been used so I don’t put all the blame for his recent ineffectiveness on him. If they think they’d be better served now with Britton or someone else in Ohlendorff’s spot, its hard to argue too much but I haven’t given up on Ohlendorff.
SJ44 please explain the revenue sharing plan to the blog, because it’s the one thing not discussed in why Santana and possibly Teixeira won’t wear a Yankee uni in 09′
I don’t see a conflict with going after CC as opposed to all that transpired with the Santana mess. Its a different scenario.
With Mussina more than likely gone and Pettitte not a strong contender to return, and if Pettitte does return it would be bottom of the rotation, the Yankees could use a strong lefty pitcher like CC. Giving up money (which with the ticket prices the Yankees are charging next season isn’t a big deal) and a draft pick is not a horrible idea.
Teixeira is a decent contender for the Yankees to go after as well. We’ve seen far too many times how a bad fielding firstbaseman hurts the team. Teixeira fields the position well and he has pop to his bat. Mientkiewicz isn’t the answer, neither is Betty or Ensburg. Neither will Posada.
First base has been a trouble spot for a while now. I just don’t see the Yankees leaving that as a gaping hole for another season.
“Forgot to add… your ‘generation MRI’ comment was hilarious.”
totally agree.
Rivera walked Payton because the Umpire was blind. Horrible strike zone last night. For both teams
Good call Brandon – i wasn’t even thinking of the extra money it costs us to sign players because of that when I posted before, usually that’s one of my main courses of thinking. I think we owe 40% on every dollar over the limit, so giving Tex/CC says a combined 35 million a year costs an extra 14 million on top of that so it would be 49 million just for the two of them
You don’t trade top pitching prospects;; hasn’t the fragility of pitchers driven that point home? It’s one thing if you trade a Marquez, but you don’t even think about moving the Brackmans, Betances, Garcias, Heredias, & Hornes of the world.
Already, Betances and Heredia are hurt. The idea that you have a surplus of pitching is a ridiculous notion; an arm isn’t made to be put through the rigors of pitching, therefore it is highly vulnerable. Free agency is where we can add some pitching depth and experience.
“But if they didn’t do that with Johan Santana, why would that suddenly change?”
Because they will have to spend the money and I wouldn’t be surprised if Hank handles that signing by himself – a la his ol’ man.
Ollie’s line in Scranton 2007 (66 innings, so not a small sample)
5.02 ERA, 1.66 WHIP, 0.95 HR/9
With Yanks 2008
5.60 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 0.99 HR/9
Maybe the problem is…he just isn’t that good. Why expect him to be able to consistently get ML hitters out if AAA hitters can slug him?
I find the “Ollie misused as a long reliever” urban legend quite tiresome. The problem isn’t he can’t get hitters out in the 2nd inning (incidentally, last night 1st inning he threw ~5 pitches), it’s he can’t consistently get hitters out any inning.
Brandon we don’t need to have revenue sharing explained. thanks.
The Yanks have no choice but yo go out and got both CC and Tex. They will have 82 million coming over the books after this season. And then after 09 Damon and Matsui come ff the books. That is alot of money to pay with. Also I know for a fact that Hank whats and will make a huge splash this off season. And IMO Cashman wont be around to talk him out of it.
Ohly is just 26 yrs. old and was just converted to the BP…as a ONE inning pitcher, just like most of the other guys. When he has been used for more then one inning; his pitches (sinker) start to climb upward…and out of the park. For one inning he is good, two innings he is s#@$%. Now, as for the Hawk, I never thought he would be a clutch pitcher…he never really excelled in that roll before, why would he now. The BP is short handed right now, until to-night, I am sure they will bring up one or two guys today. 27/08?
Santana came with 3 issues:
1. The players involved. The Yankees didn’t want to give up Phil Hughes. I don’t blame them. They also didn’t want to give up Wang and Kennedy. The last incarnation of the deal.
If the Yankees knew Phil Hughes was going to get hurt this year, perhaps they would have looked at the deal differently. Unfortunately, you don’t have hindsight in these things and I still believe Hughes will be a good pitcher down the road. Just not now.
2. Santana’s second half scared off the Yankees AND Red Sox. If either team REALLY wanted him, they would have done the deal. Fact is, neither team wanted him enough to make the deal.
His velocity is still down (he was throwing 91 most of last night) and as Buster Olney’s column laid out the other day, its a huge warning sign for a guy with a 7 yr deal. Most of the people I know in the game think he is less than what he was. Doesn’t mean he still isn’t very good. I’m just not hearing “great” assigned to his name by as many scouts as in past.
3. When you factor in the contract, add 20% to the salary and that’s the hit the Yankees take on the luxury tax.
So, 23 million per year becomes 27.5 million per year.
I’m sorry but, Johan Santana is not a 27.5 million dollar a year player. Not for the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets or anybody.
This team is also not one pitcher or player away from being a championship team. If you think it is, you just aren’t watching them objectively this season.
What changes in a year? Lots of money off the books, your needs change, and you have more flexibility. Both on the roster and with payroll.
You also have a team opening a brand new ballpark and they aren’t going to do it with a last place team. That also drives the market.
CC isn’t going to command Johan money because the market is smaller. Its probably going to be between the Tigers, Indians and Yankees for his services.
At least that’s the early buzz in the agent world.
Fair point, Wang, but at the same time, Ohlendorf’s numbers were MUCH better in SWB after he moved to the pen. That’s why he got called up. He was ineffective as a starter, but more effective as a short reliever.
You can make an argument that by making Ohlendorf a long reliever, the Yanks were undoing the discovery of last year that he was effective as a short reliever.
“Good call Brandon – i wasn’t even thinking of the extra money it costs us to sign players because of that when I posted before, usually that’s one of my main courses of thinking. I think we owe 40% on every dollar over the limit, so giving Tex/CC says a combined 35 million a year costs an extra 14 million on top of that so it would be 49 million just for the two of them”
JoeT actually you corrected me because I thought it was 17% on every dollar but it really is 40 % for NYY and Tex/CC is an extra 15.8 million per year if my calculations are right.
Ohlendorf is miscast in his role. He can be successful as a one inning guy, but he’s had trouble doing longer outings. Someone like Rasner would be great for that role, but if he pitches role and Joba becomes a starter, that should become Kennedy’s role.
SJ I’m confused is it 40 % or 20 % on every dollar for NY ?
I am sure that the Yanks would have not problem giving CC the money. Even Hanks said that the money was not the problem with Santana it was the prospects that they had to give up with the money. The Yanks know that they can’t count on Hughes and Kennedy for next year. I think Hughes will get better but Kennedy is clearly not ready. But since Hughes is hurt it is going to take him about another 3 years to be able to throw 200 pitches. You can’t count on someone like that.
The only reason Rivera walked Payton is because he threw 3 pitches right over the plate and the umpire decided not to call them strikes. At that moment pitches right down the middle are not strikes.So it was an umpire walk not his. Like Rivera would be so scared of the great Payton…
It seems obvious that after 50 plus games this year that the current group of “phenom’s we have will not be able to get us into the playoffs. I think that the Yankees have a lot of very talented young pitchers who need another year at triple A to be effective. Rasner is a good example of a pitcher who wasnt quite ready last year but now is effective. It is still hard to believe that we would go int a season with so little experienced pitching. Why we wouldnt we make a trade Santana for a pitcher like Hughes who gets hurt walking to the mound, or a pitcher like Kennedy who looks lost on the mnound or a .250 batting centerfielder with no power is a indication that reduing payroll is the focus for this year.Perhaps Hal the money man trumps Hank the baseball fan. If we want to see the post season then some of our young “phenom’s” will be used to get another starting pitcher and a dependable reliever. Also, I not all that unhappy that Cashman may head out. Again the is the master mind of this team. A team with Igawa, Kennedy, Hughes, Orlendorf, Betermit, Farnsworht, Hawkins, etc. Certainly not the same team that his counterpart in Boston has built. Perhaps 2008 is a year to totally clean house including the GM. Maybe Giambi can loan Cashman the “magic thong” so we can start getting players who can win
The reality is, the Yankees are trying the get out of the business of funding their competitors. If the payroll stays this high, they continue to fund their competitors.
Want things to get better? Develop your own players and use free agency to fill ONE need. Not all your needs.
At least not on the big ticket items.
Its why I don’t see them going for both Tex and CC. It will only be one guy, IMO.
Given the pitching issues at this time, you have to think CC has the early lead in which guy they will seek.
“Brandon we don’t need to have revenue sharing explained. thanks.”
MikeEff apparently we do since everyone wants the tandem of Hank and Hal to break the bank and not think why it hurts the team longterm and helps field it’s competition too.
Will someone please take Ian Kennedy out of the
Yankee’s starting rotation? This kid has shown nothing
this year and it’s almost June! He has been horrible!
Ditto for Phil Hughes(though he has been on the DL, he
stunk prior to being injured)!
La Troy Hawkins was a Terrible Acquisition and
Cashman should be fired for that move alone!
But let’s not forget: Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, Vasquez,
Chacon, Randy Johnson, Armando Benitez, to name a few
of Cashman’s blunders!
The Yankee’s starting pitching is so bad that
Joba Chamberlain has to be moved to the starting rotation
because the starters gave up so many runs they couldn’t get to him in time for it to matter!
I agree with the move but we’re still one or two starters
short! Igawa is Not the answer!
Can we get a GM that doesn’t sit on his butt while the
starting pitching is bad and the bullpen(without Joba thay can only rely on Mariano) is worse!
Earth to Hank Steinbrenner: Fire Cashman Now!
“I mean Teixeira could regress and we’d still be paying him 23 mil per year”
40+ homers and 140+ Rbi in ‘05
33 and 110 in ‘06
30 and 105 last year
Good bet not to get 30 and 100 in ‘08 (5 and 31 at the 1/3 post)
Might be regressing a little already.
Mitch is right. While perhaps Ohlendorf isn’t as good as many hoped he would be, he has been better in the first inning of work. While he did used to be a starter, he’s been much better as a short reliever.
Brandon,
I think its 20%. Could be wrong on that but, I always thought it was 20% off a certain threshold that’s caluculated each year.
“The reality is, the Yankees are trying the get out of the business of funding their competitors. If the payroll stays this high, they continue to fund their competitors.”
Don’t they catch some kind of break as a result of opening a new stadium??? Either no revenue sharing for a year or no luxury tax??????
I really dont want the Yankees to give CC a ton of money for over 3 yrs. He is 350lbs now, whats he going to be when older?? He is a big time candidate to break down and get injured and fall apart.
The biggest mistake Cashman made this year was having no backup plan. I will never understand why he didnt go out and sign Bartolo Colon and use a similar plan that the Red Sox used. It was a risk-free move, if he was bad they could just release him and if he proved himself you can have a former cy young winner for cheap. It really baffles me how the red sox who have a ton of pitching could go out and take a chance with him but the yankees with only one certainty coming into the yr (wang)wouldnt have some back up plans. Cashman left them very little room for error and it is all coming back to bite them.
40% because of the number of years they have exceeded the max payroll amount.
“Ollie’s line in Scranton 2007 (66 innings, so not a small sample)
5.02 ERA, 1.66 WHIP, 0.95 HR/9
With Yanks 2008
5.60 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 0.99 HR/9″
Thank you. Iv was trying to make that point all last night. He is over rated. He isnt the next coming of Wang. I dont care if he can throw his sinker at 96. He has sucked.Cut our loses and bring up one of the young studs that has actually dominated the minors.
Regarding Joba. Is it just me or is his velocity down this year? Last year he was hitting 98 with regularity. Iv seen all his games and he seems to be more at 95. Also he doesnt seem to have as much control of his other pitches. Could it be the gun? Could it be that people are not swinging at anything but his fastball?
“The biggest mistake Cashman made this year was having no backup plan. I will never understand why he didnt go out and sign Bartolo Colon and use a similar plan that the Red Sox used. It was a risk-free move, if he was bad they could just release him and if he proved himself you can have a former cy young winner for cheap.”
to be honest the MLB still believes Bartelo will break down it is why the Red Sox might put him on the market
This quote from Ben K. (RAB)
“The Yanks scored eight runs tonight, and by any stretch, that should be enough to win the game. Staked to a four-run lead, Kennedy couldn’t hold down the fort. Ross Ohlendorf, very effective for one inning and very terrible beyond that (notice a pattern?), didn’t hold his four run lead either.”
I would suggest; I am not the only one that has noticed the difference…as a few others have gotten it too. 27/08?
pat so every doallar above 117 million is 40 % of the dollar for NY ?
“Might be regressing a little already.”
He was out last year for two months with a blown quad.
Now Teixeira–a habitual slow starter–is regressing as of May 28th. This is rich stuff.
Jebesus, enough of this “miscast” nonsense already!
Ollie’s first inning performance this year:
16 appearances, 15 innings (because twice he went 0.1 and 0.2 innings)
9 runs
That is a : 5.4 ERA
And that’s neglecting the inherited runners he allowed to score.
Happy to debunk your urban legends, as always.
Arguement on the last thread.
Getting Shawn Casey. If we wanted a bench player with a good glove. We should have just kept Mienksddditz.
NO ON TEX.
Hitting .260 with 5 homers. Melky has more dingers.
20 + million for a first baseman regressing. Always starts of slow.No thanks. Havnt we learned from our mistakes? Use our pitching strengths in the minors to fill our weakness at first.
Pete — I was at all 11 innings of that “excitement” last night and to back you up one point: there’s no way Rivera was trying to pitch to Payton in that spot. Not that visions of the 2000 World Series were dancing in Mo’s head or anything, but those four pitches looked targeted to miss … Molina didn’t move on three of them.
“to be honest the MLB still believes Bartelo will break down it is why the Red Sox might put him on the market”
I think the Red Sox still believe he will break down. In the end, they were looking for just enough starts out of him to keep the innings down for Buchholtz and maybe Lester. He makes 10 decent starts, and Boston got what they needed out of him for short money.
I’m pretty sure it’s a lower number (20%ish) the first time you go over the limit – and it’s 40% every time after that – i’ll try to find a link
Ok, thanks Pat.
If you are worried about Sabathia’s weight, why would you want Colon? He was/is pushing 3 bills and he’s 7 inches shorter than Sabathia.
Bad news in Charleston, Betances placed on the DL with what’s being called an “upper body injury”.
He joins Suttle, Almonte, and Rufino on the DL.
They have gotten killed with injuries so far this year.
please do JoeT I’m curious about this
“The reality is, the Yankees are trying the get out of the business of funding their competitors. If the payroll stays this high, they continue to fund their competitors.”
just out of curiosity ,how is the luxury tax penalty divided up between the other teams?
“Bad news in Charleston, Betances placed on the DL with what’s being called an “upper body injuryâ€.”
Still trying to figure out Heredia’s ‘upper body injury.’ I guess whatever it is, it’s contagious.
Im the biggest Jeter fan out there. But i havnt seen much pop from his bat all year. His strengths have always been hitting to the opposite fields and hitting balls to the gaps. I havnt mentioned stealing bases because of his leg injury. But my question is if he continues to stay banged up and his gap power continues to drop. Can anyone see him retiring after his contract is up? If not. How many years do you give a singles hitter thats consistantly banged up?
“Will someone please take Ian Kennedy out of the
Yankee’s starting rotation? This kid has shown nothing
this year and it’s almost June! He has been horrible!
Ditto for Phil Hughes(though he has been on the DL, he
stunk prior to being injured)!
La Troy Hawkins was a Terrible Acquisition and
Cashman should be fired for that move alone!
But let’s not forget: Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, Vasquez,
Chacon, Randy Johnson, Armando Benitez, to name a few
of Cashman’s blunders!
The Yankee’s starting pitching is so bad that
Joba Chamberlain has to be moved to the starting rotation
because the starters gave up so many runs they couldn’t get to him in time for it to matter!
I agree with the move but we’re still one or two starters
short! Igawa is Not the answer!
Can we get a GM that doesn’t sit on his butt while the
starting pitching is bad and the bullpen(without Joba thay can only rely on Mariano) is worse!
Earth to Hank Steinbrenner: Fire Cashman Now!”
This has to be satire. Doesn’t it?
“He was out last year for two months with a blown quad.
Now Teixeira–a habitual slow starter–is regressing as of May 28th. This is rich stuff.”
He missed a 30 games last year. Still got 580 plate appearances, though missing another 125-130 PA’s surely had an impact. No evidence to suggest the 40/140 is what he is though.
Brandon
Dollar amount has escalators in it. I think it was 155 million last year and something like 162 this year. So they pay 40% tax on everything above the 162. I’ll find you the link.
Wang I.N.A.A. and SOS…
Ohlys’ numbers in 2007 where mostly as a starter. He was put in BP at the end of the year…and pitched very well. 27/08?
After watching Hawkins pitch the last two nights I had an “upper body injury”.
It was caused by slumping over a toilet and vomiting.
I Would be shocked if the Yankees didnt sign both CC and Tex. Think about it who the hell is going to play first next year if not Tex. And who is going to fill out their rotation if not CC. Plus they have the money to spend and have not made a FA splash since Damon.
another words if we are above 155 million multiple .40 to every dollar.
Couldn’t agree more with you SJ.
What worries me about Hughes and Kennedy is, I don’t think anyone can make the argument that they were moved up too fast. I’d actually like that to be the case, because at least it would be a valid excuse. They both dominated in the minors, and looked ready.
Problem is, it seems like Hughes and Kennedy’s stuff may have been oversold. I know I saw scouting reports saying that Hughes fastball occasionally touched 94-95 and that it sat around 91-92. But instead I see him at 89-90. That’s a problem.
I never get too bothered when young pitchers are inefficient and issue too many walks. It happens. But what concerns me most about Hughes and Kennedy is that they seem terrified of the strike zone. And I guess I would be too if every time I threw the ball over the plate it was scalded. Very concerning.
There’s clearly going to be some times when Joba gets lit up and throws 100-plus pitches in five innings. But his makeup is such and his stuff so good that I’m confident there are going to be many more good times than bad.
As for the bullpen. As I’ve said many times, the answers are Melancon and Cox. The only debate is when to bring them up. I think Cox is almost ready. Before his injury he was on a fast track to New York. His numbers have been so consistent, WHIP around 1.00, just as adept at strikeouts as getting double-play groundballs. I can’t wait for him to get up.
I like that Melancon pitched four innings last night. You’ve got to build that arm strength back up. It seems like Melancon will be in AAA before the All-Star break.
Neither one of those guys have pitched one major league inning, yet would anyone not take them now over the disastrous trifecata that is Hawkins/Farnsworth/Ohlendorf?
Heredia is back. He should be back in the rotation shortly.
They had him pitch an inning the other night.
Rumors are Horne may be making a rehab start in Charleston. Unconfirmed at this time though.
Brandon
I was off by a year. 155 million this year. 162 next. Here’s the link on luxury tax
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2637615
“If you are worried about Sabathia’s weight, why would you want Colon? He was/is pushing 3 bills and he’s 7 inches shorter than Sabathia.”
Because Colon’s salary = Hank’s bar bill at the club
Don’t think anyone wanted a longterm commitment to Colon, but a 10-15 start, 60-75 inning contribution when you’re trying to raise a pitching staff from a pup, doesn’t hurt.
“He missed a 30 games last year. Still got 580 plate appearances, though missing another 125-130 PA’s surely had an impact. No evidence to suggest the 40/140 is what he is though.”
Where are you getting 580 ABs last year?!?! You looking at 2007??
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....yerId=4937
thanks PAt I’m reading that link right now.
“Where are you getting 580 ABs last year?!?! You looking at 2007??”
Um, Plate appearances, not at bats.
Prepare to be shocked because they aren’t signing both players.
If they do that, they are in salary hell again.
There are other first basemen, and pitchers for that matter, than Tex and CC.
That’s why you scout. You go and find the best fits for your team.
I have a hard time believing the only first baseman they can find is Mark Teixiera.
If that’s the case, this organization is in real trouble.
I know most fans don’t want to talk about money. However, it does play a factor in every move you make. Especially in today’s baseball.
I just don’t see this team, which has waited 3 years to have payroll flexibility, blow it all out just because they may have a bad year in 2007. Which, I might add, isn’t even certain right now.
Finally found something:
Next year, as multiple-year offenders, they’ll again have to pay about 40 percent of their total payroll in excess of the luxury tax threshold of $136.5 million.
http://talkingbaseball.wordpre.....e-concern/
It’s about 1/4 down the page
In 494 ABs, a gold glove 1B hit 30HR/105RBI. That’s regressing? Maybe for Arod, but you cannot say that’s the case for anyone else.
Coming into the season this was clearly a transition season – a season in which a lot of was going to change while they were still trying to win.
But that’s not just a single transition that is going to happen. It’s going to be multiple transitions that occur as the year progresses.
Right now they are in the middle of a particularly big transition – getting Joba into the rotation.
This team clearly has weaknesses. But we aren’t going to know what it is until Joba is settled in the rotation and they replace him in the pen.
The team’s biggest weakness at the start of the season was it’s starting pitching with Hughes and Kennedy being ineffective.
Fortunately they had internal options with Rasner and Joba. Once Joba is in the rotation the starters are going to hopefully stabilize.
The second biggest problem was the non-existent offense – the team is no starting to hit.
If the starting pitching stabilizes and they continue to hit the team is going to be left with figuring out the pen.
But they are also going to have options to mix and match and figure things out.
Timlin blew the game last night for the sox. No team is without major flaws. And no team is running away with the division.
This year in the AL East, given the competition and flaws of all the teams, how teams improve themselves during the season is going to be particularly important.
We’re going to have to wait and see. IMO, the yankees have pitching depth which makes it probably that their staff – both rotation and pen – will improve from where it is today.
Not many teams can say that.
“Where are you getting 580 ABs last year?!?! You looking at 2007??”
I actually said “plate appearances” rather than “AB’s”
He’ll usually get 700-725 PA’s a year. Last year he had 580.
wow…. everyone beat me to it lol… whatever i tried
does anyone think Abrue will be back next year? I hope so but what kind of a deal would he get a 2yr with an option for a 3rd??
Been a while since I posted, might be a while too. Been busy, don’t have the time to read so much of the same stuff day in and day out.
I still like to read Pete’s posts because they’re interesting. But I just skim over the comments now and only read if something is written by any of the 8 or 10 more intelligent, insightful or interesting regular posters. Some of them are really good. I’ll reserve comment on the rest though, other than saying it makes no sense to engage in most of the comments.
I noticed someone else is now posting under the Ansky moniker too (not all in capitals) but that’s OK with me. Hope there’s no confusion if it appeared I was contradicting myself or causing trouble. I didn’t read enough to see if it was good or bad, but either way it wasn’t me.
The way I look at it – the Yankees already gave the big contract away to a slugger (A-Rod). You look at the rotation separate from everything else next year and you have possibly Pettitte making the big bucks and NO ONE ELSE. Wang is still dirt cheap for his quality and Rasner, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy are all cheap. They will allocate their money to CC if they have a choice.
Besides, if you sign Teixiera to a big money contract then what do you do 4-5 years down the road (or even 2-4) when Jeter, Posada, and the minor league sluggers need some time?
As SJ said, CC makes a ton more sense as of this moment.
That said, should everyone remain healthy I am not too worried about the rotation. Joba is the man and I have complete faith in him. Put Wang and Pettite behind them and that is one hell of a quality rotation. Rasner? Been great for us this far and until I see otherwise I won’t be worrying about him. Mussina’s in his last year but you telling me we couldn’t find a #4-5 guys in the FA market/trade next season. We’ll be fine.
In other news, Pavano is throwing again. HAHA
I just scored front row tickets to the game at the Metrodome on Saturday! Right next to the Twin’s bullpen.
So the good news is, if we are losing the game, I can still get inside Nathan’s head as he’s warming up…
Any good suggestions as to what to tell Joe N?
Does anyone else notice that Ross Ohlendorf blows up if he pitches more than one inning? Wasn’t the point to put him in the bullpen as a setup man? They completely screwed with this kid’s confidence… send him down and tell him what his role is, long man or setup man. As for Kennedy, he definitely needs some time in Triple A, and not just one start. I think they rushed these kids, except Joba, because he started in the bullpen. Joba in the rotation, Hughes to the bullpen when he comes back, unless he decides to start throwing his slider and change more, seems like he had no confidence in anything except his fastball and curve.
well that sucks because of the ridiculous spending of Clemens(BTW Thanks Daddy Steinbrenner) and the Matsui + Pavano + Igawa signings we are dangerously close to being over the threshold for the 3rd time and that’s 40% on the dollar. There is no chance that Tex is getting signed infact there might be no chance C.C. is signed.
Brandon…
What is the name of that 1st baseman you like? I’m sorry, I forgot to write it down…old age. 27/08?
“Plus they have the money to spend and have not made a FA splash since Damon.”
Arod’s $300 million was kind of splashy, no???? Not to mention locking up Mo and Posada. Add in Cano’s extension and the Yanks doled out some $400+ million in commitments last offseason.
old ranger: please see my earlier post re: Ollie’s first inning this year.
As a matter of fact, until last night Ollie’s first inning ERA (5.78) was actually HIGHER than his 2nd inning+ ERA (5.4 before last night)
As of now, Ollie still sports a “sparkling” 5.4 first inning ERA after last night’s 1-2-3 first inning.
This “ollie is miscast as a long reliever” urban legend is just that, an urban legend
Ohlendorf is miscast as a major league pitcher right now.
Not throwing a boat load of cash at CC would keep this team in the cellar for years.
Thats why we’re in this situation to begin with. Its pass on the best available, and then go for the second best. The second best isn’t good enough.
Time for Russ’ Tidbits:
First, Pete, “Why would they throw bags of money at CC?” Why you ask? Because they have no pitching. 40% of their starting pitching hasn’t won a game this year and are injured, that is why Pete. Second, folks, don’t let Pete or other people brainwash us Yankee fans. They are a 3rd place team at best this year. It is a blessing, hopefully Kennedy will go on the Retire DL and never pitch again, he stinks, as does Hughes. Pete contends this is the “easy part of the schedule”, are you kidding me? The Yanks are what I thought they were, about a .500 team, no pitching, no bullpen and will come in 3rd in the AL East. Anybody who thinks this team has a chance of making the playoffs is dillusional. Ohlendorf, Kennedy, Veras, Farnsy, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Along w/Kennedy and Hughes who should be in AAA ball. People, come on. Let’s enjoy the Yankees as who they really are this year.
“Um, Plate appearances, not at bats.”
If you want to include BB, that only further demonstrates he is not regressing, because his OBP actually went UP last year.
If you want to include HBP, SAC, and the # of times he reached on defensive interference, you have another 5 times he’s reached base or driven in a run.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt by only considering his ABs. Any other clarification, V?
“Brandon…
What is the name of that 1st baseman you like? I’m sorry, I forgot to write it down…old age. 27/08?”
right now it’s tough, man I’d like to figure out a way to get LaPorta from Milwaukee.
Brandon – I’ll have to disagree with what you said
“There is no chance that Tex is getting signed infact there might be no chance C.C. is signed.”
Just think of it this way: Mussina + Pavano off the books next season. Pavano has done nothing for us and Moose is replaced by CC.
Moose = 10mil, Pavano = 10mil. That’s 20 million right there. Plenty enough to sign CC.
Think that will keep the teams payroll real high? Consider losing Giambi (20+mil) and possibly Pettitte.
didnt they strike an agreement where they get out of paying the luxury tax because they picked up the tab on the new stadium?
and even so, dont think for one second, especially after missing out on Johan, that Hank wont make a huge push for either CC or Tex, or both, if thats what he (they) feel they need to do to push for a WS title.
the yankees have never been shy about spending money, nor should they as long as they spend it wisely. no reason to think they arent going to throw around a little bit of that financial advantage they have at least a little bit.
Re: Salary Tax –
This is from ESPN on 12/24/07:
New York’s payroll was $207.7 million and Boston was second at $163.1 million for luxury tax purposes, which uses the average annual values of contracts for 40-man rosters and adds benefits. Both teams pay at a 40 percent rate for the amount over the tax threshold, which rises from $148 million this year to $155 million next season.
I really laugh at all of you who are including Hughes next year or later this year as a key part of our rotation.
What exactly has he done, other than get insanely hyped up, to make you think he’s a lock as a successful major league starting pitcher.
I also was predicting the foolishness of going into this season counting on Hughes and Kennedy (and Mussina who has proven me wrong so far).
It’s probably one of the worst GM jobs we’ve seen the Yankees do in many years.
It was so brazen and foolhardy, that I felt we were asking for this kind of result.
Hughes is again on the DL. This isn’t Beckett with the blister problem throwing 97. Hughes does not have Beckett’s stuff.
Hughes might turn out to be one of those oft-DL pitchers, like Harden.
Kennedy frankly hasn’t shown the stuff against major league hitters to be anything other than a #5 who will be fighting for his job.
His September callup last year was just that, a September callup. It was not a full season of effective pitching at the major league level.
Next season if Cashman is here, he better go into the off season with a better plan than he executed this year.
Look at the record when Hughes/Kennedy pitched this year.
I hope next season we’re talking Wang, Joba, CC (or some other top major league starter), Pettite and then maybe Hughes, if he can beat out Rasner.
I think Andy will have a good season in the end and I hope he comes back next year. Andy as a #3-4 next year would be awesome.
If they use money as a reason at to why we can’t have Andy and a big free agent/trade starter, they should be ashamed of themselves next year.
However, counting on Phil Hughes at this point in his career is like counting on the tooth fairy to put a C note under your pillow.
Outside of a few flashes (the 1 playoff appearance and the almost no hitter he got injured in) and hype from scouts, he’s done nothing to help the Yankees win at the big league level.
Let him earn his way back before you count on him or Kennedy for anything.
Pete calls them Generation MRI. I call them Generation Middle Finger to Cashman since only 1 is left standing of the three.
If this season goes up in flames I think the Yanks will pursue both CC and Tex with Hank taking a much larger role in the free agent signings.
So Santana’s additional $19M would have cost the Yanks $26.6M this year. (that’s Clemens-type money)
No way would I do that given Santana’s second half struggles and the questions around the soundness of his arm.
“This “ollie is miscast as a long reliever†urban legend is just that, an urban legend”
The difference between Ohlendorf as a short reliever vs. long reliever isn’t simply quantitative – it’s qualitative.
It’s not simply that he’s throwing additional pitches and tiring in inning 2 or 3.
If you are expected to throw 3 innings in an appearance as a relief pitcher you are going to approach the game differently from the first pitch you throw compared to how you would approach it if you were only asked to throw one inning.
So when Ohlendorf is put into the game in the 4th inning he is going to pitch very differently from pitch 1 than he would if he was put into the game in the 7nth when he throws pitch one.
Last year the yankees were very surprised to see how qualitatively different Ohlendorf was as a short man than as a starter. He bore down and let it loose knowing that he didn’t need to save anything in the tank for later.
As a long man you can’t do that.
Ohlendorf needs to go to AAA to get thing figured out. He’s not helping the team.
But IMO you can’t draw any definitive conclusions about his ability to help this team in the pen from how he’s been used so far this season.
““Um, Plate appearances, not at bats.â€
If you want to include BB, that only further demonstrates he is not regressing, because his OBP actually went UP last year.
If you want to include HBP, SAC, and the # of times he reached on defensive interference, you have another 5 times he’s reached base or driven in a run.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt by only considering his ABs. Any other clarification, V?”
He said X Plate Appearances, you responded by saying his tally of AT BATS was incorrect.
I made no judgment calls about the player.
If you’re only interested in bickering, see ya.
Why cant they go out and get both guys? They have all the money in the world coming of the books after this season. Plus even next year they have Damon and Matsui coming off the books. If they dont get CC they are in big trouble. Tex I would love to have but If they got CC and then got a guy that can hit alittle but play a good first I would rather that.
One thing that’s lost with the aging veterans is that in 3 years, we won’t have a full-time DH. Right now it’s a bottle-neck with Giambi/Damon/Matsui. You’ll have the flexibility to use it as a rest stop for Jeter/Posada and anyone else. It’s not a foregone conclusion that Posada (for instance) is going to have to move to 1B.
Roster flexibility will be nice with that DH spot freed up.
what’s the payroll after this season ?
“Why cant they go out and get both guys? They have all the money in the world coming of the books after this season. Plus even next year they have Damon and Matsui coming off the books. If they dont get CC they are in big trouble. Tex I would love to have but If they got CC and then got a guy that can hit alittle but play a good first I would rather that.”
Prepare to be disappointed.
Yankees’ fans were spoiled by George, getting all the pretty shiny FAs, no matter what it took.
That era is gone.
SJ: I’m a few hours late on this one, but regarding Sean Casey specifically; the guy got a ML deal with Boston. I don’t think that we had a spot on the ML roster for him then, right? Would he have taken a minor league deal?
After this season they have roughly $120-130 million committed to the 2009 team.
They have around $80M coming off the books this year, including Abreu and Pettite’s contracts.
OK – now I’m developing a fixation –
I did not know this nugget from WikiAnswers:
The Luxury Tax is also called the ‘Competitive Balance Tax’. Ironically, the money from the tax isn’t distributed to smaller market teams to promote competitive balance. Instead, it goes into an ‘Industry Growth Fund’ that MLB uses for player benefits and to promote the growth of baseball around the world. Money is distributed to smaller revenue teams, but that money comes from MLB’s revenue sharing program, which is entirely separate and independent of the luxury tax.
“Why cant they go out and get both guys? They have all the money in the world coming of the books after this season. Plus even next year they have Damon and Matsui coming off the books. If they dont get CC they are in big trouble. Tex I would love to have but If they got CC and then got a guy that can hit alittle but play a good first I would rather that”
because of the luxury tax penalty they would recieve, see it’s easy for us to say it’s not our money, but it’s thier money and they may not like being the reason the Tampa’s the KC’s and whatever other lower payroll team become a competitive team. This is why money spent wisely seems to be the new approach. It’s nice to reach FA for a need, not all needs.
I’m not convinced (and have long since not been convinced) by SJ44’s arguments for why the Yankees are not going to go after both Sabathia and Teixeira, particularly this new one about the Yankees going back to salary hell if they sign both Sabathia AND Teixeira.
Those two should cost about $40MM.
The Yankees have up to $78MM coming off the books next year ($17MM for Giambi, $16MM for Abreu, $16MM for Pettitte, $11MM for Mussina, $10MM for Pavano, $5MM for Farnsworth and $3.5MM for Hawkins).
They also have $31Mm coming off the books after 2009 ($13MM for Damon and $13MM for Matsui, plus Giambi’s $5MM buyout).
Tell me again how the Yankees will be in salary hell by adding $40MM after 2008?
Now granted, if the Yankees get a better deal than C.C. or Teixeira, I’m all for it. Or if C.C. or Teixeira somehow bomb this year, then don’t sign him.
But I do not buy the argument that the Yankees will be stuck by signing both (or phrased differently, if they add $20MM by signing one, how exactly are they SO hampered by adding an extra $20MM?).
The Yanks will have to spend some $$ on a pitcher next year. It doesn’t have to be CC but does anyone have a list of FA pitchers that may or may not be compelling?
As a high hoper, I still think Hughes and IPK can get their 180 IP when we go all the way to the WS title.
Its been explained over and over why getting both guys may not be feasible.
You still have to field a 25 man team.
If you commit 40 million to Tex and CC, add it up.
Arod, Jeter, Cano, Posada, Rivera, Matsui, and Damon. That’s approx 118 million for those guys.
That’s 158, or already over the luxury tax threshold for 9 players.
You are going to have to ante up to Wang this year. That’s probably another 10 million. That’s 168.
How about RF? Bring Abreu back? Add another 15-16 million to the pot. That gets you over 180 million. Want Pettitte back? Another 16 million. Back near 200 million and you are still 13 players short of filling out the roster.
BTW, forget looking for paycuts. Nobody is taking paycuts to play for the Yankees.
They aren’t going to keep doing business in that manner. Its counterproductive.
Its one or the other among CC and Tex. That’s if either guy even wants to play in NY.
Something that is unknown at this time.
V – I feel like people are missing my point. IMO Cashman will not be back after this season. Meaning he wont be there to tell Hank what to do with his money. Hank wants to make his mark on this team just like his father did. He sat back and listened to Cash about Santana saying that this was just his first year on the job and he still has things to learn. Meaning he took the high road but it killed him not to get that big pitcher and watch him go to the Mets. I was one of those who didnt want the Yanks to get Santana so Im glad they passed. But I would be shocked with all the money that Hank has to play with he wont atleast get one of the 2 big FA’s if not both.
I don’t think they’re hampered, but Hank has griped about how teams have flourished because of they Yankees’ contributions to the revenue sharing plan. And by pulling the Yankees payroll at/near/beneath the threshold, no team will be benefiting from the Yankees’ success/fandom anymore.
“Why cant they go out and get both guys?”
They could – but if they do sign both there’s a significant probability that the team 3-4 years from now will be stuck in a similar position to what they are now.
Lots of long term contracts to players who are getting older whose production is declining.
The history of long term contracts, especially for pitchers, just isn’t very good. Teams rarely get back their expected values.
When you sign a player who is 29 there is a good chance that that player has already had his peak years and is going to be on the decline (even if that decline is relatively slow).
With long term contracts you wind up paying for the past more than you do for the future.
That’s not to say you never do it but the history of those kinds of deals across baseball just aren’t good and chances are they won’t return the expected value.
I don’t get this, throw out the Seattle games, and the Yankees record is, whatever it is… don’t those games count? Can we throw out the record against a team we haven’t beat, and improve our overall record that way?
IMO, the problem is more roster hell; the higher the price tag, the harder it gets to move them if you ever decide that they’re not wanted anymore.
—
Don’t the Brothers Steinbrenner have to agree before something can be done? IE Hank can’t do anything if Hal disagrees, and Hal has shown so far to be rather cool toward the high payroll thing.
I’m not looking to convince anybody of anything.
All I am saying is, they are not going to do business the way its been done in the past.
Hank and Hal have said as much. Hank even said last week, they have “to change 5 years worth of doing business the wrong way”.
What do you think he was talking about? The payroll.
They probably have more of a chance of signing neither guy than signing both guys.
I think they will probably overpay to get one. I’d be shocked if they do both because it would be a dramatic departure from the way everyone in a decisionmaking capacity with the Yankees has said they will do business from this point forward.
BTW, it also doesn’t work. Look at the present roster and its inflexibility. Its because of bad contracts.
Blargh, correct, Casey signed a major league deal. I doubt he would have signed a minor league contract.
That becomes an issue of the 40 man roster and the number of pitchers presently on it.
Another issue for another day! lol
“Its one or the other among CC and Tex. That’s if either guy even wants to play in NY.”
Oh there opinions count too? not just if we want them huh?? lol
“The history of long term contracts, especially for pitchers, just isn’t very good. Teams rarely get back their expected values.”
Yes, I agree. That’s why I cannot see them touching Sabathia and battling the O’s for Teixeira.
SJ – I dont think Andy is coming back…So forget him and his money for 09. They have 82 million coming off after this year. Now you Give Bobby/Tex/CC 65 million for next year that leaves you with 17 million to fill out the rest of your team. Meaning Pen/Bench. Also why cant the Yanks go alittle over the payroll of this year knowing that Damon will be gone. Plus Matsui will be off the books but I wont even count that because I would sign him to keep him at DH.
“Its one or the other among CC and Tex. That’s if either guy even wants to play in NY.”
Note to Yankees fans: there will be multiple teams in contention for their services, so its not a given that these guys will play here next year. Sometimes we talk as if we have them wrapped up. We may get neither.
The architect of this current mess — Cashman — must be fired immediately. The fact that Hank wants him back is all the more reason to get rid of him.
Hopefully, even with innings limits with Hughes and IPK, Horne should be ready by then as well as Chamberlain and perhaps McCutchen…? But who knows if the Yankees want to try another year with all youngen’s on the team… Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, IPK/Rasner, Horne… with McCutchen, Robertson and White waiting in the wings?? Is this even feasible?
Also, ESPN’s Peter Gammons lists some in season trade possibilities: (from MLBtraderumors.com)
Gammons’ trade possibilities: Paul Byrd, Jeremy Sowers, Derek Lowe, Rich Harden, Odalis Perez, Brett Tomko, Jarrod Washburn, Zach Duke, Vicente Padilla, and Kevin Millwood. Byrd, Lowe, Perez, and Tomko will be free agents after the season. Sowers and Duke are the kids. Harden is the oft-injured ace. Washburn, Padilla, and Millwood bring burdensome contracts.
Gammons also five “unlikely, but not impossible” scenarios. He suggests A.J. Burnett, Bartolo Colon, Joe Blanton, Greg Maddux, and Ben Sheets could be moved under the right circumstances.
Anyone there peak anyone’s interest?
“If you are worried about Sabathia’s weight, why would you want Colon? He was/is pushing 3 bills and he’s 7 inches shorter than Sabathia.”
one pitcher costs 18 mill a yr for 6 yrs the other was 1 mill for one yr, a little diff risk
When calculating salary and how it will affect luxury tax, you can almost leave Alex’s contract out of it. The Yankees see his contract as more than paying for itself in marketing dollars. That money won’t factor in their decision of how to spend going forward.
Sabathia and Teixeira in 09 did you not read anything here…try again read CB and SJ’s post
SJ: Hmm, it all comes back to roster hell in the end!
Here’s something I’ve thought a bit about recently: if a Jon Garland-type (upper 20’s, league average right now with past of being above league average) would be signable this offseason for a few years at ~10 mil a year, would it be a viable move? By no means would he be a frontline starter, but it’d be reasonable to expect 3rd slot-ish depth from him during his prime years as the transition to young pitching continues.
Of course, perhaps the market for such a pitcher would be more expensive than I expect…
Mainly because stuff happens during a season and you don’t want to start the year with the payroll too high.
Look at this year as an example. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the payroll was at say, 170 million right now?
They would have more options to fill holes on this team than being able to do it at the current 209 million dollar number Especially when you are paying 40% more to acquire the talent.
Its about being flexible. That’s what they aren’t right now and its because of all these bad contracts.
Its why I just don’t see them doing it again. Could it happen? Sure, anything could happen.
I just think folks who are connecting the dots believing they will sink big money into those guys are going to be disappointed when it isn’t likely to happen.
Their passing on Santana wasn’t a one year decision. It was a long term decision to change the way they do business.
One bad season isn’t going to change it, IMO.
Rich Harden goes tonight against Halladay. That should be a doozy.
Anyone else listening to these two bozos on the radio right now?
“Those two should cost about $40MM.”
If you look objectively at the Sabathia and Texeira’s level of production across their career’s and compare it to the top players at both their positions, it’s unclear if either of them is worth $20M never mind both.
Texeira is a career .900 OPS player. That is very good – but it is not elite offensive production for a first baseman.
He’s nowhere near as good as Pujols, Howard, or Fielder.
$20M for 6-7 years is franchise player money. Money you would give to a Pujols or Howard. The yankees have the resources to pay franchise money to a non-franchise player but the question is whether that’s a good idea. They’ve done that over and over in the past and it hasn’t worked.
Sabathia similarly hasn’t had the body of work that makes him a sure fire $20M guy. His career numbers are nowhere close to a Santana’s.
Sabathia’s had 2 very good years – 2006 and 2007 – and that’s it. And if you look at his peripherals outside of his W-L neither 2006 or 2007 was a true elite year.
Again, he’s a very good pitcher – one who is left handed – but one who has not been year in and out an elite level performer. For instance, he’s never had an ERA+ of over 150 – something guys like Santana, Webb and Halliday have done on multiple occasions.
They are both very good players. The question is whether the yankees should pay both or either as franchise level players for the next 7 years when they will be around 29-36?
CB: I can tell you, even in late inning high-leverage 1 inning situations, Ollie’s stats are horrid.
Given, a lot of that can be attributed to the disastrous outing vs the Mets. Even pretending that late inning debacle against the Mets never happened, he lucked into a 3.6 ERA inspite of a 2.2 WHIP on 8 hits, 3bbs in 5 innings pitched.
In short, folks have clamored Ollie is miscast as a long reliever. Stats do not bear that out, rather indicates he’s every bit as bad (and until last night, in fact worse) in his first inning of work than subsequent innings.
So then one claims it’s because his approach was different. Well, his stats are actually more disastrous in one-inning, late (7th inning on) situations.
I guess ollie supporters can then attribute that to small sample sizes. That’s well and good, but it doesn’t change the fact ANY sample, big or small, has indicated he can get ML (and to some extent, even AAA) hitters out on a consistent basis.
My big concern with the way of doing business the last few yrs is the lack of attention to position players in the draft. Who was the last drafted position player to have an impact on the team? Nick Johnson (but was his impact big enough? I would go all the way back to Jeter.
Guys like Soriano, Cano, Melky do not count bc they were not drafted they were free agents signed out of their respective countries. The Yankees could offer them more money than anyone else. They need to bring up some young guys to play positions in minors. Look at the 40 man roster besides the 25 guys on the mlb roster or dl, they have about 2 position players in the minors on the roster. The rest are pitchers. I think they need to focus on drafting some hitters June 6.
The “develop the kids” stuff is hard work, but the teams that were willing to go through the tough times with their kids, and didn’t write them off at 22-23 years old, are some of the teams 10-12 games better than us in won-loss record right now.
It sucks, but it happens. We weren’t going to be able to run out the 2000 Yankees out there every year forever.
“Anyone else listening to these two bozos on the radio right now?”
yes..unfortunately…and Fatcessa sounds like someone stoled his dinner plate. And Lisa from Whitestone just sounds like an idiot right now.
Garland isn’t bad. The negative? He’s an Orange County guy and it may be tough to pry him away from the West Coast.
Look at a guy like Paul Byrd for example. A guy who knows how to pitch, would be pretty good on a team with a good offense, and is a veteran presence in the clubhouse. He can handle the stage.
If you sign Tex, and then go after Byrd, or someone of that ilk, that’s a sensible baseball move, IMO.
He’s the type of guy you look at if Tex is the guy they end up signing.
I know they have always like Derek Lowe. I don’t know how much he has left or even how he has pitched this year. Haven’t seen him work so far this season.
“Texeira is a career .900 OPS player. That is very good – but it is not elite offensive production for a first baseman.”
His glove and his character go a long way with the aforementioned OPS statistic.
Lisa from Whitestone: SSSHHHHHH.
I’d target Bill Hall and Freel or Keppinger before the deadline. The bench needs to upgrade.
“The architect of this current mess — Cashman — must be fired immediately.”
Really? And who do you suppose replaces him?
“Anyone else listening to these two bozos on the radio right now?”
How bad/comical is it? I decided to skip fatso and fruitloops today. I figured it would be another “Joba must stay in the pen/Remember his ‘horrible’ Manhattan game” type of day for them with occasional giggles from Russo over Hawkins performance.
Anyone else think Lisa from Whitestone has a thing for Mike?
Again, I disagree with SJ44’s rationale.
Let’s look at his 2:08 P.M. argument – that the Yankees could not make more agressive moves to fill out the team because they were at 209MM versus 170MM.
I infer from other writings of SJ44 that he means MINOR, not MAJOR moves.
Pray tell what minor moves the Yankees did not do in the off season because they were at 209MM?
We’re not talking about the Santana deal, where what was at stake was letting go off priced cheaper players (Hughes, IPK and Melky in one package, Wang and IPK in another).
Plus SJ44 is not mentioning three things: 1. The Yankees will decrease their revenue sharing contributions because of Yankee Stadium;
2. Every year the salary cap thresshold goes up (that is mentioned before in this thread by Pat and Brandon), so having a $209MM payroll in 2008 is not the same as in 2011.
3. The Yankees are basically playing out Yankee Stadium at full capacity in 2008 and will surely play new Yankee Stadium at full capacity in 2009. Revenue is not an issue.
The one financial issue I COULD see the Yankees having is that the financing for new Yankee Stadium imposed debt covenants on the Yankees which prevent them from going over a specific payroll amount. BUT I have found no record of this anywhere.
IN SUMMATION: It is unclear what the Yankees will do next year. Perhaps Mussina keeps it up and comes back to pitch for 10MM. Or Rassner does. Or Phil Hughes and Joba are the cat’s meow.
What the Yankees will do will depend on how this season plays out and what current players do (both players on the Yankees or on other teams).
There is no guarantee that the biggest need for the Yankees will be to sign BOTH C.C. and TEX.
But if those ARE the biggest needs for the Yankees, I believe the Yankees would go after both players.
What I will agree with SJ44 is that the Yankees will continue their long term plan, notwithstanding whether they sign C.C. and TEX. The reason is simple: it’s cheaper to replace the Damon’s and Matsui’s of the world with A-JAX and Tabata’s, and the Mussina’s and Pettitte’s with Hughes, Jobas, Hornes and Brackman’s (and the Karsey’s and Farnsworth’s with Sanchez’s, Melancon’s and Cox’s).
Mike and the Dog to the shock of none on this blog are killing the yankees and joba..BLAh BLAH…I cant wait till Melancon is the 8th inning guy just so he can shut them up. Maybe im dreaming.
mike and the moron do not even know that teams have minor league players.
they think if you are not at least 28 you cannot play.
yeah Joba pith him 80 innings a yr verse 180 innings… I see the logic there have a piece of crap guy pitch the other 100 innings like desalvo, or clippard, or kyle or hawkins.. these guys make millions and have no clue………
the only reason they are doing the Joba move is because they think he can be great not a #3 starter but an ace.. We will see if he is an ace it is a no brainer.. Can he be an ace who knows but he throws 94 in his sleep, has a monster slider, and a plus curve and developing change…
his WHIP is under 1, that is ace stuff, we will see if it transfers to 7 innings…WHY NOT….
“Texeira is a career .900 OPS player. That is very good – but it is not elite offensive production for a first baseman.
He’s nowhere near as good as Pujols, Howard, or Fielder. ”
He’s better than the scrubs we have playing there now!
Lisa from Whitestone..I think her voice scares puppies…and humans
“Anyone else think Lisa from Whitestone has a thing for Mike?”
yup. It’s like she was his wife in that segment, whiny nasel voice talking about “I never wanted JOba to be a starter they took away the 8th and 9th inning” jesus just pathetic to hear stupid people, I know she’s old and a womane but that was a stupid observation by her. You never wanted him to start ?, HE’S BEEN A STARTER ALL HIS LIFE !
Listen I dont think the Yanks need Tex. But for people to make a case that Yanks dont need CC is beyond me. If the Yankees dont land CC who the hell is pitching for them next year??? I would love a rotation of Wang,CC,Joba,Hughes,Horne. Just get a guy that plays a solid firstbase and lets keep it moving.
I think about a week ago CB had an excellent post detailing the downfalls of the big $$$ free agent signings, basically detailing how the Yankees have been funding the opposition for a few years by the bloated payroll / revenue sharing / luxury tax. He used the Kazmir signing for an example. How else would TB be able to sign him ? Certainly not through any revenue they create. His post certainly woke me up to the reality of the big $$$ signings.
I frankly don’t expect the Yankees to even so much as inquire about Texeira. I think they are more than likely looking for stopgap solutions on 1B, keeping the position warm for current skill position players on their roster who will eventually have to change position to continue playing. How many years does Posada have left as a starting catcher? How many seasons can Jeter stay at shortstop? Does anyone really think NY wants to see Jeter in another uniform when they decide he can’t play SS anymore. And I don’t think its automatic that they don’t resign Matsui when his contract is up. These guys can’t all play DH. Looking up long term to a 1B or DH is the craziest of long term contracts, especially with an aging roster. But someone will do it. My guess is Baltimore.
CB,
Agreed. I’ve always maintained that paying good players great money doesn’t make them great players.
We have seen it time and time again.
Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa, Johnny Damon, and Jason Giambi. Not franchise players. The first two aren’t even players. The last two, while very good players, aren’t Arod and Jeter. Two guys I would classify as franchise players. I submit, neither is Andy Pettitte. Yet, those 5 guys represent over 200 million dollars in salary and posting fees over the last 4 years.
Have the Yankees gotten over 200 million dollars worth of production from these players? I don’t think so.
You can overpay for a few guys. When you do it with too many, that’s when you get in roster hell. The place the Yankees currently reside.
Its why I don’t see them going in that direction again.
You start paying players 20 million per year, they better be real difference makers on your team. Not just supplemental pieces.
Is Tex that guy? He wasn’t in Texas (he had Arod to be “the guy”), or in Atlanta (that’s Chipper’s domain).
He’s a very good player. Is he that good? IMO, no.
Doesn’t mean he won’t get that kind of coin. I’d just prefer its not from the Yankees.
CC? More interesting case. He’s a Cy Young winner and, truth be told, has been more successful than Tex thus far in their respective careers.
The big negative, and its a concern, are the fitness and stamina issues.
Its a tough call and, IMO, its too early to say which way they should go in the off-season.
Right now, and its an opinion subject to change, I’d go for CC because that need (an innings eater lefty) is MUCH more important to this team than an all star first baseman.
Give me a rotation featuring: Wang, CC and Chamberlain as my Big 3, and I’ll take my chances at finding a functional player at first base.
“I can tell you, even in late inning high-leverage 1 inning situations, Ollie’s stats are horrid.”
5 innings is an enormously small sample size.
You are also not looking at his overall workload before those appearances.
At least a couple of those 1 inning late game appearances came after he’d thrown 40-50 pitches a couple of days before and got stuck in a game for a 1 inning appearance without enough rest.
For instance, on April 16 he pitched 1 inning and gave up a run. He threw 32 pitches that inning. But that was after only getting 2 days of rest after throwing 3 innings/ 49 pitches of shut out ball on April 13.
Before his April 26 0.1 inning appearance he had thrown 3 innigns/ 49 pitches on April 24th and that was after throwing 3.1 innings/ 38 pitches on April 19th.
Do you really think its reasonable to tell a guy throw a 3 innings then give him two days rest then tell him go out and be my short man and shut down the opposition?
So even that minuscule sample of 5 innings of short man work is very stilted.
Ohlendorf has not been good and should be in AAA. But it’s very, very difficult to draw any valid inferences on what kind of pitcher he could be based on his role and workload (especially the distribution of his innings) so far this season.
Statistics are often about context. This is one of those cases.
LOL Mike thinks it’s “criminal” they took Joba out of the pen and that’s why they lost.
“Lisa from Whitestone..I think her voice scares puppies…and humans”
Hahaha. If she keeps calling in, she may get picked up by Marlboro for some radio spots.
“I think about a week ago CB had an excellent post detailing the downfalls of the big $$$ free agent signings, basically detailing how the Yankees have been funding the opposition for a few years by the bloated payroll / revenue sharing / luxury tax. He used the Kazmir signing for an example. How else would TB be able to sign him ? Certainly not through any revenue they create. His post certainly woke me up to the reality of the big $$$ signings.”
CB explain that again, I remember it but I want to keep it fresh in my mind
I think that “lady” smokes like 3 packs of Marlboro Reds a day.
Mike thinks it’s “criminal” that they took Joba out of the pen? Oh my lord. Calm down crazy big man
“I think they are more than likely looking for stopgap solutions on 1B”
There are two positions the New York Yankees should never look to “plug” with short term solutions: CF and 1B.
Teixeira isn’t better than Albert Pujols??? You mean he is not better than a sure fire hall of famer and once of the most dominant hitters in recent memory who will never ever be available to acquire? NO WAY
Also I contend that he IS better than Howard or Fielder. He is more athletic than both, providing defense, and Howard is at a 99 OPS+, Fielder at a 109 OPS+, and Tex is at a 104 OPS+. Their 2007 seasons are comparable, and neither Fielder nor Howard have shown consistency. They both have 1 monster season.
CB,
I’m not saying that C.C. and Tex SHOULD get $20MM each.
I am saying that this is what the market will probably value their services at, for a number reasons, such as:
a) The fact that baseball as a business is doing very well and there’s a lot of money out there;
b) The fact that teams are locking up their young talent (as the Indians tried with C.C.), and less talent is becoming available on the FA market.
The Yankees have one great competitive advantage, which is the fact that they have deeper pockets than other teams. They are starting to use that advantage astutely (by going over slot in the draft and by shelling out more money in Lat Am signings), but there’s a point of diminishing returns with young, cheap players (you can’t corral every talented youngster, because they all can’t play at the same time. Plus, there are other teams out there who also have money to spend). Which is when it makes sense to smartly apply the financial advantages of the Yankees to sign good FAs.
—-
As to SJ44’s comment about Byrd, I don’t disagree about signing short term deals with veterans (like the Lieber deal, which was pretty good for the Yankees or even the Latroy Hawkins signing last off-season).
But going down that route, Pettitte and Mussina fill that bill, and I don’t necessarily discount bringing back both these pitchers for 2009, especially because the Yankees have tons of pitching coming up the system (an ETA of very late 2009, or better yet, 2010, is a very good bet for a lot of that talent).
In that light, signing Sabathia is a long term bet predicated on ensuring that 2 of your rotation spots are filled-up regularly (Wang and Sabathia), with the hope that the young guys (Joba, Hughes, perhaps IPK, perhaps Horne, perhaps Sanchez or Brackman) can fill-up the rear.
I also agree with the first poster, Yanks are more likely to go after Sabathia than Santana because he only costs money, not players and money. However, I’m still diametrically opposed to paying a player big bucks for what they did for their former team…but I suppose if you don’t give into that sometime, you’ll never sign any free agents.
However, while it wouldn’t disturb me mightily if CC were a Yankee next year, I do hope they can find a way to retool the pitching staff without signing him to a long contract. I think Andy should and will be back next year, so if we already have a lefty then perhaps we should (if possible) go after Burnett instead? And sign him to a short but incentive-laden deal.
Now I know some of you may be thinking, well why would he take such a deal. I don’t think he is very happy with the Jays, Ricciardi basically came out and called him a pansy last year…don’t you think he would welcome the opportunity to stick it to them? I do.
This, of course, is all contingent upon him opting out of his contract. But I bet he will, especially if he gets the impression that other teams are interested.
Now I know you may be thinking, who needs another Pavano, but firstly Burnett is a better pitcher than Glass Carl ever was. Second, while he’s clearly injury-prone, it’s nowhere NEAR the level of Pavano. It might even be useful for him to spend a month or so on the DL, because of the pitching depth down on the farm…let’s say he sustains a minor injury in, say, mid-July…well doesn’t that just open the door for a hopefully much-improved Kennedy, or Horne or even Brackman a bit further down the line?
The thing about CC is if you sign him you are stuck with him as a rotation mainstay for the next 6-7 years, for better or worse. Taking on someone like Burnett would provide more flexibility. And CC’s conditioning and the plethora of innings he’s already thrown at such a young age make me very, very nervous.
Last but not least, and this is the bright red cherry atop the ice cream sundae….if Burnett pitches FOR us, then he no longer has to pitch against us!
It is laughable to think anyone would prefer Howard or Fielder over Teixeira. There’s no way someone actually said that.
^^ oh, and I’m sorry if everything I said has already been mentioned, but I’m way too ADD to read 150 posts.
btw, speaking of the Indians and of signing young, Latin American talent. Does anybody know what ever happened with Edward Salcedo? Did we get him, or did they, or is nothing doing at this point?
They only get a one year break from the revenue sharing deal because of the new Stadium. While helpful, it won’t change their long range planning.
While the threshold does increase each year, it doesn’t increase so much that it puts the Yankees in a good position to make several big moves unless they eliminate a lot more payroll.
Also, the pool of available players shrinks every time small market teams sign their young players to long term contracts. That’s happening all over baseball these days.
While you may have more money to spend, the quality of available players are not present. Meaning, if you aren’t smart, you end up overpaying for guys who simply can’t play to the levels of their contracts.
Take a good look at the Yankees, Tigers and Mariners.
Their rosters are full of players like that. Its no surprise they are three of the worst teams in the league.
Unlike the Yankees, the Tigers and Mariners drained their respective farm systems in recent years. They have zero internal solutions. The Yankees have internal solutions to some of their problems. That’s a good start.
How does that Gary Sheffield contract extension, along with the Cabrera and Willis extensions, look right now in Detroit? Not too good.
The game is changing in a big way. I think everybody has underestimated the impact tougher drug policies have had on the game.
We already see it changing economically for several of the reasons described in this thread.
I think we are also seeing how much the game is changing from a performance standpoint.
Good pitching, contact hitting, athleticism and fundamentals are making a big comeback. I think that’s going to play a big role in how teams build their clubs in the future.
No to Byrd, better to go with young guys and allow them to struggle..
byrd is a avg pitcher..
“His glove and his character go a long way with the aforementioned OPS statistic.”
I can’t speak to Texeira’s character but he is a very over rated defensive player by multiple defensive statistics.
He is not even close to the best fielding first basemen in baseball – Pujols, Kotchma, etc.
Last year Texeira was 6 runs BELOW the average first baseman defensively. That is he cost his teams 6 runs more than an average defensive first baseman would have.
This is also backed up by his relative zone rating – around .750 which was 9th highest amongst first baseman.
This is further backed up by his zone rating last year – .849 – only good for 11th best in baseball.
Gold gloves are often given to players who aren’t the best defensive player at their position.
Teixeira is one of them.
what the hell is Fatslob talking about ?
I love how you guys are saying if we sign people to long term to contracts we’re back in the same position.
May I ask what are we going to do if we don’t sign people?
Where are the players going to come from?
Do you honestly think this farm system and getting the type of free agent who will take a short term deal is going to work?
If this season has taught you all anything, it’s banking on rookies to be contributors is a crapshoot. A major one at that.
There may be a kid tearing up AA or AAA with the bat who you think can play 1b or RF/LF next year.
What happens if he can’t? What happens if he fails like Kennedy and Hughes?
You really think this organization is going to go all in on the rookie plan again?
Rookies, in the future, will be worked in and if they surprise they’ll be promoted. Like Melky, Wang and Cano who were all brought up in season and earned the roles. Handing rookies the starting job is not the way to do it.
I don’t think the team is going to go into another season counting on multiple rookies to hit or pitch to scouting projections again.
I’m not saying blow up the farm, but there needs to be a better plan in place that includes actual major league talent to fill these positions.
But Byrd has that old school wind-up and he looks like Kelsey Grammer… just kidding, I’ll take a pass on Byrd.
completely agree, G. Love.
The fact that the game is healthy and everybody is making money actually limits the Yankees financial advantages.
Players today can stay where they are comfortable rather than going for the gold in NY.
Teams can also afford to keep their own players longer.
You know where the Yankees money advantage comes in? The Amateur Draft and the undrafted Latin American Free Agent Market.
That’s where their money can work. Provided of course, the scouting is solid.
They can use their financial might in a big way in those areas. It also means folks have to allow for developmental time. That’s where patience comes in.
I’m not saying the Yankees are going to go Marlins-like in payroll reduction.
I am saying they are going to run their business more like a baseball business, and have since 2006, and less like a lottery. Regardless of who the GM is.
As someone pointed out earlier:
Jeter and Posada aren’t getting younger, and feasibly how long will they remain at their respective positions before a switch is induced?
Who is to say the Yankees don’t go after Tex b/c they have Posada earmarked for 1B in about a year to two year’s time?
Why is it such a forgone conclusion that Bobby “Thats not a wall, is it?” Abreu will be back? Abreu will likely seek the last whopper of a contract, think 3-5 years, roughly $44M and up. Who is to say Jeter won’t get moved to RF until one of the kids (Tabata or Jackson) is ready to come up.
I can see them signing CC, but Tex? Again, with Jeter and Posada aging, I could see one of them being 1B in the near future.
Totally agreed with G.Love’s 2:39 statement.
Can’t do it all with the farm. The 90’s dynasty was a perfect farm/trade/free agent blend that clicked and fired on all cylinders.
G love is something Hughes is a failure!!!!!!!The guy is 21, you have the patience of most Yankee fans less then 1 day.
G love how about this develop your own and supplement the roster on occasion; bernie, jorge, derek, mariano, pettitte, and others were all homegrwon, look at the roster of there championship teams….
oh and also regarding trades and possible moves for next year…this is just an idea I’ve been tossing around a bit but know who I kinda wouldn’t mind seeing in RF next year for the Yanks? Xavier Nady.
I’ve only seen a little of him when he was with the Mets, but I liked what I saw. He’s a hardworking, underrated player, he seems to get at least a bit better every year, he’s right handed, he’ll hit for some power, and he plays for the Pirates who I doubt will re-sign him when he hits free agency…which, I believe, happens in 1 or 2 years.
So since Pitt won’t resign him, wouldn’t it behoove them to trade him in the summer or offseason? I’ve read rumors the Yanks may deal for Marte or Grabow at the deadline, so why not throw in a few extra prospects to get Nady added to the deal? Then by the time he hits FA in NY, Tabata would likely be ready to take over.
The only drawback is his defense. It isn’t very good. That could be a dealbreaker but I think the Yanks should at least consider this. Oh, and he can play 1b too…
wang is not an ace
You are correct Ohlendorf is awful
I have been saying this for months
JRVJ,
I think you summed it up well in your post. It’s really a value decision.
If you want to sign Tex and CC at above value, market rates that’s fine as long as you are fully aware of what you are getting.
In general, if the yankees sign a player to a huge money deal, the fans and the organization have historically had much higher expectations for the player than what his track record has been.
If they sign Tex for $20M yankee fans are not going to temper their expectations and say, well, we know we overpaid him so his very good production is ok.
If he signs for $20M, yankee fans are goind to expect Tex to be a $20 M first baseman and won’t be satisfied with anything else.
Pujols is a $20M first baseman. That’s what many people are going to expect from Tex.
And then there’s a good chance we start the cycle of free agent disappointment all over again.
A great recent example of this in NY has been Carlos Beltran . He wasn’t a franchise guy ever – but got franchise money. Now he’s still not producing like a franchise guy and many Met fans can’t stand him, even though he is an terrific CF offensively and defensively.
Abreu is a pass for next yr. good player, soft enough of SOFT…
“The 90’s dynasty was a perfect farm/trade/free agent blend that clicked and fired on all cylinders.”
and people need to stop referring to the yankees teams of the ’90s as the target for the current yankees to get back to… there is a reason dynasties are rare, and to think that any organization can simply go back to what they did when they were successful is faulty logic. fans all need to first recognize how special those teams were, and how unlikely that is to ever happen again any time soon.
Hey BBB…
RE: Nady?
Does he run scared from an OF wall like I do from the IRS?
If not, sign ‘em up.
“I can’t speak to Texeira’s character but he is a very over rated defensive player by multiple defensive statistics.”
When I was at the Naval Academy, Teixeira was in high school and later went to Georgia Tech. You could not go anywhere in Annapolis, Baltimore, or Northern Virginia without hearing about this kid.
Forget the baseball stuff, everyone had nothing but high praise for him as an individual.
With respect to his defense. It’s obvious if you’ve watched him. The guy can pick it with the best of them. I want a gamer on my squad. A web browser doesn’t tell the whole story.
I read that if the option isn’t picked up on Vladdy, he’s a free agent…
Any takers, or too old/past his prime/injury-prone?
There aren’t just two ways to build a team. All rookies and giving out 6-7 yr contracts like candy.
How do you build a team? Oh, I don’t know, how about like everybody else builds them. With balance.
The Yankees have a core of players. ARod, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Wang, Chamberlain and Cano. That’s a start.
You have a guy like Matsui, still a very productive player.
You have younger players like Ramirez, Hughes, Cabrera and others soon to be up (Cox, Melancon) who can help.
That’s a pretty good base to start with and better than a lot of teams.
You then do what everybody else in baseball does. Scout.
Find good fits. Yes, some will be big ticket items. Most won’t. They weren’t when they were winning titles.
Its about striking a balance and there are several ways to do it.
Look at the Angels for example. They have spent big (Vlad, Escobar, Hunter), they have developed from within, and they have found little gems to round out their roster.
The Yankees can do the same thing. Its not like they are immune to making good decisions.
If folks think giving out long term contracts to everybody is a good thing, then don’t complain about this years team.
Being saddled with these bad contracts is a huge reason why they are in last place. It limits ways you can improve the team.
The whole key is flexibility. One can dispute the ways to get there but, you have to get there if you want to be consistent winners in today’s game.
NO on Vlad… 7 years too late.
Reading today’s postings one has to wonder what some people are thinking with.
CB@1:45 and SJ44@1:53…
These two have tried very hard to explain some points of interest to many of us. Some can’t seem to understand common scence.
CB@1:45…
I took what you wrote for granted, but I should have known some would not. You put it into words much better then I could. Thank you. 27/08?
“Being saddled with these bad contracts is a huge reason why they are in last place. It limits ways you can improve the team.”
I ask again – what moves did the Yankees NOT do last year (other than the Santana deal, for reasons previously discussed) because of the contracts they have on the books?
“The biggest mistake Cashman made this year was having no backup plan. I will never understand why he didnt go out and sign Bartolo Colon and use a similar plan that the Red Sox used.”
Darrell Rasner was in AAA to start the season. He is making pennies this year. Back up plan A seems to be working okay for the Yankees thus far.
“May I ask what are we going to do if we don’t sign people?”
Trades. The yankees will in fact have to make some kind of trade where they package a number of good arms just because the 40 man roster and system are filled with them.
They will hopefully use their surplus of good young pitching talent and turn that into young position players.
Not easy – but every team is desperate for young pitching and the yankees have it in the minors.
TurnTwo, I agree. That team (or teams) from ‘96-’01 was special. To duplicate it would be impossible.
But the mold for a winning formula is there, plain and simple.
The Sox figured it out. As a team spent decades ging after big-boppin home run guys, they finally figured it out in the late ’90’s and early part of this decade that pitching leads to championships.
A strong farm system that can contribute at the major league level, coupled with free agent/trade sprinkles here and there, alon with a little luck = world series.
IMHO.
“So since Pitt won’t resign him, wouldn’t it behoove them to trade him in the summer or offseason? I’ve read rumors the Yanks may deal for Marte or Grabow at the deadline, so why not throw in a few extra prospects to get Nady added to the deal? Then by the time he hits FA in NY, Tabata would likely be ready to take over.”
think about what you said you’d trade a high upside 19 yr. old future power hitting OF for a 34 yr. old LH SU man, plus the GM for the Pirates is Neal Huntington a key assistant to Mark Shapiro when he was w/ the Indians and so far has been everything Littlefield wasn’t.
Nady is an example of what I’m confused about the years a player needs to put in before he can become a free agent. Cot’s contracts says that he’s accumulated 4 years of ML service (prior to this year, I assume); he was up in the majors for a majority of 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2007. One game in 2000 and 34 games in 2004. Assuming that he stays in the majors for most of this year, does he hit free agency this offseason? Or the year after?
I guess my question would essentially be, is it the years since he’s been called up for the first time, or does the guy have to play 6 years worth of games? Or something else?
CB,
I agree with you – trades are a good way to leverage the excess number of RH arms in the system.
If the Yankees take on some salary in addition to sending talent the other way, good things could happen (and frankly, I don’t mind taking salary back in a trade, just like was done in the Abreu trade, which was a great trade for the Yankees).
Trade for who, CB? Throw some names out…
What positions should they fill by trade. RF? SP? 1B?
Teams seem to want to hold onto their players.
As a poster wrote the other day:
“These aren’t the good old days when we would lower the drawbridge, cross the moat, and could storm a village (team), take all their pretty women (ace-like starting pitchers) and drive off in their muscle cars (power hitters) at any cost we deemed suitable….
Brandon, I think he was aying have Nady take over RF until Tabata is ready, not deal Tabata away…
Maybe I mis-read, mis-remembered…
Colon has two decent outings, and people lose their minds. The guy is overweight, has a questionable attitude, and developed arm problems that have not been solved.
Look carefully at his 2007 numbers:
WHIP 1.621
ERA 6.34
Think it was an aberration? Here is 2006:
WHIP 1.456
ERA 5.11
Now tell me, who, sitting over last winter, would look at those numbers on an aging, injured pitcher and say, “Yeah, we have to have that guy!” Answer? Nobody. That’s why the Sox got him as a minor leaguer.
Again, sitting in the off-season, do you want this guy taking away AAA starts from our prospects? Maybe Rasner doesn’t get a shot (he was DFAed off the 40-man in the off-season) if Colon is around.
Man, 20-20 hindsight is amazing.
But even with what we know now (Colon 2-0 for the Sox), I STILL wouldn’t want him wasting a roster spot in NY.
“Darrell Rasner was in AAA to start the season. He is making pennies this year. Back up plan A seems to be working okay for the Yankees thus far.”
It’s remarkable how people keep ignoring Rasner as one of the fall back plans the team had coming into the season.
It just doesn’t fit into the narrative that keeps getting repeated that they had no backup plans.
Their backup plan was probability. They have a ton of options and chances are at least one would pan out.
They may not have known it would specifically be Rasner but when you amass enough decent arms it’s reasonable to expect a few will produce good enough to be a back up plan.
What contracts are hurting the Yankees this year?
Damon. Just because he is hot now, doesn’t make him a 13 million dollar player for this year and next year. For that kind of money, the production and consistency has to be higher.
Giambi. Sorry but, he’s not worth this kind of money this year. He’s not a 21+ million dollar player.
Farnsworth. Year 3 of an awful deal.
Pavano and Igawa. Killer deals.
That’s 54 million dollars worth of wasted money this year.
54 million dollars of guys who aren’t performing to the level of their contracts.
If I owned the team, I’d sell before I put myself in that type of jackpot again.
I look at the game in very simple terms. Every contract has a ripple effect through your entire organization.
Every contract has to have value. In a perfect world, no more than 20% of your roster (approx 4-5 players) can underperform on the field, vis a vie, their contractual status.
I think you can make a pretty good argument that at the present time, over half the Yankee roster is underperforming, given their contractual commitments. Way too much to be a winning team, IMO.
A 5 year Jason Giambi contract would have made sense. Seven? Insane.
Damon? Three years, with zero no trade clause, sensible. Four with a limited no trade? Great for Johnny, bad for the team.
Every deal you do has an effect on the team.
The Yankees used to back end a lot of their free agent deals. Some in the organization used to call it “voodoo economics”.
What it ended up doing is, placing the highest salaries on particular players when they were past their point of production for those salaries levels.
Simply put, a horrible way to do business.
Its showing up this year in a big way.
I’m just saying, any free agent who is halfway decent is not going to come here for a short term contract.
Ain’t gonna happen.
Which leads us to our fearless GM who hasn’t shown himself to be the best evaluator of talent out there.
You’re expecting him to uncover diamonds in the rough?
And don’t throw Rasner at me. They DFA’d Rasner for a roster spot this year. Rasner’s performance has shocked them and fallen into their laps.
Right now the economics of baseball are develop your own or sign big ticket guys.
The type of free agent that will take a short deal isn’t even a decent role player anymore. A decent role player gets a 3-4 year deal somewhere else.
And as for the core of the team, all of the position players are in decline with the exception of Arod and Cano.
They have to find position players who are in their prime.
So if we don’t sign those type of players, then you are relying on Cashman to trade for them. When he appears to overvalue his prospects and not want to trade them.
I’m not saying Tex or CC are the answers. I’m just saying that if a quality player hits the free agent market, you better have a long term contract in your back pocket for them to sign, otherwise forget about it.
With that being the landscape and the only types of players willing to take short year commitments being the likes of Latroy Hawkins, it stands to reason that giving out long term contracts is the cost of doing business in baseball these days if you want actual talent and not rolls of the dice.
mis-read BB77 and SHUT UP
“How do you build a team? Oh, I don’t know, how about like everybody else builds them. With balance.”
This is exactly what the yankees got away from after losing the 2001 and 2003 world series.
They didn’t win and became very reactionary and narrow in their approach to building the team.
Fortunately, they’ve now moved back to diversifying how they acquire talent.
The last thing that comes in the equation of balance is trades because it takes chips to make them.
That’s what they’ve lacked for quite some time.
Whether they can pull off a deal in season – I’m not sure. It’s not easy with the wild card.
But this off season I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see them fill their first base hole through a trade for a young first baseman.
Power Rankings from CBS Sportsline today:
“You had to figure the return of Alex Rodriguez would help inject some life. They could also see Joba Chamberlain making starts and de facto captain Jorge Posada as soon as early June. Here’s a prediction: A favorable schedule and a change in the team dynamic will get them within three games of the Red Sox by the time those teams play in early July.”
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10843749
Bronxbomber: LOL, as I was writing that his defense wasn’t very good, I mentally added “but at least he’s not scared of walls.” As long as he doesn’t mind crashing into them from time to time and also has a good arm, I’ll take his defensive foibles, especially because Melky can cover a bit of extra ground out there if need be, I’ve seen him do it for Damon and Abreu before.
“Can we throw out the record against a team we haven’t beat, and improve our overall record that way?”
Of course we can. In my mind we can throw out the 1-4 record in B-more this year. That makes the team sit at an okay 24-22.
WOW i just threw out Boston’s home record ( 21- 5 ) they are a 11 – 18 team
can’t keep up with these posts today, but someone mentioned Paul Byrd looking like Frasier.
Am I the only one who thinks a beardless Casey Blake looks like Woody?
http://cache.daylife.com/image.....G/610x.jpg
To clarify on my Nady post, as bxbomber speculated, I meant Xavier would be an ideal stopgap (actually don’t even know if its fair to call him a stopgap since he’d be above avg.) until Tabata is ready. No way would I be down with dealing Jose.
This new Pirates GM seemed more than a little bit greedy though when Cash was discussing Marte with him in the offseason. That could mess things up, but I do think Nady’s an intriguing solution that should be pursued.
oh and also, one more clarification, I’m a she.
“You could not go anywhere in Annapolis, Baltimore, or Northern Virginia without hearing about this kid.”
good. let him go to the orioles. he can be a local hero.
neither he nor sabathia does much for me for the money.
cashman really has only one more card up his sleeve to play and it’s joba.
his credibility will be shot if chamberlain doesn’t do well starting.
so it’s all about joba right now for the yankees and cashman.
if joba isn’t what is hoped for, i’d say the yankees are in big trouble for this year and cashman is done.
if he does well, that’s another story.
At least SJ44 got off the anti-Giambi bandwagon.
On a sidenote, it’s great to see good commentary in the thread today. Lots of interesting conversation going on.
LOL Brando…
G. Love: When we say ‘long’ contracts, are we talking 6-7 years long or 4-5 years long? Or are we scaling it to the signee’s age?
“Am I the only one who thinks a beardless Casey Blake looks like Woody?”
Hahaha, he kind of does!
But there’s no way I can participate in a conversation about Indians looking like actors without mentioning that Grady Sizemore is that kid from Boy Meets World reincarnated.
Exhibit A:
http://www.quizilla.com/user_i.....scory1.jpg
Exhibit B:
http://www.dougpaulson.info/bl.....grady1.jpg
How so many women can find him attractive, I’ll never understand…it’s like 1 step away from pedophilia! lol
Why is Cashman in trouble if Joba doesn’t live up to the hype? Every scout said he has electric stuff, every scout rated Hughes a top prospect. All he can do is draft’em and hope they pan out…. to many can’t misses have fizzled you just hope you have enough prospects and get lucky
off topic…………Fellas, go to Catania, Sicily if youd like to see some of the most beautiful women youve ever seen that dress to kill.
thanks for letting me share.
“I’m not saying Tex or CC are the answers. I’m just saying that if a quality player hits the free agent market, you better have a long term contract in your back pocket for them to sign, otherwise forget about it.”
G. Love,
Your points are well taken. But I don’t think it’s a matter of whether you sign players to long term, big money free agent deals but who and when you do it.
That’s really the question. IMO, if there was a guy on the market who was a true franchise guy I’d be happy to pay him a market rate and sign him to a long term deal.
But I also think that if you pay very good players as franchise players there are numerous negative consequences that reverberate throughout an organization.
From fan’s reactions/ disappointment to revenue sharing.
I’m tired of the yankees paying for the Rays to sign David Price or to sign Kazmir and Longoria to long term deals.
IMO, neither Sabbathia nor Tex are franchise guys.
“Why is Cashman in trouble if Joba doesn’t live up to the hype?”
because he bet his job on his youth plan.
Randy,
That’s a good point. I can’t fault him on Hughes and Kennedy. Its hard to believe those guys have stuggled so mightily.
If Joba bombs or God forbid, gets hurt, that’s the death knell for him.
The interesting part of this team is, if Joba pitches the way I think he can in the rotation, Wang, Pettitte, Joba, Moose and Rasner are certainly a good enough rotation to win games.
Of course, that’s dependent on their offense being more consistent and these guys have to start playing with better baseball IQ than we saw last night.
The bullpen? Edwar Ramirez is opening eyes. Overuse is the one thing they can’t do with him. Farns? Heart attack outings but he’s still functional.
Ollie and Hawkins are killing them right now.
Mo is Mo.
Flawed team? Yes. But, if Joba can solidify the rotation, things can get better.
SJ44,
First of all, I did not ask “What contracts are hurting the Yankees this year?”
I asked what deals the Yankees did not do in the 2007-2008 offseason because of the contracts they have on the books (other than Santana). That’s a very different question.
Now granted, you can make an argument (which you sort of do in the latter part of your post) that every dollar badly spent is a dollar you cannot spend in a smarter way (and I think that’s your argument) but that’s an argument that would freeze any GM into making no large commitments. Not to Mariano, not to A-Rod, not to Posada. And I don’t buy it.
Let’s see the middle part of your post:
“Damon. Just because he is hot now, doesn’t make him a 13 million dollar player for this year and next year. For that kind of money, the production and consistency has to be higher.
Giambi. Sorry but, he’s not worth this kind of money this year. He’s not a 21+ million dollar player.
Farnsworth. Year 3 of an awful deal.
Pavano and Igawa. Killer deals.
That’s 54 million dollars worth of wasted money this year.
54 million dollars of guys who aren’t performing to the level of their contracts.”
Damon and Giambi may not be worth $13MM and $21MM respectively, but they surely are worth $9MM and $15MM (I know you hate Giambi, but come on, the man is 6th in the AL in OPS at .915, just a hair under Youkilis at .918 and over .034 over Manny Ramirez at 7th. He also has an OPS+ of 150!!! Tell me again how he sucks and is not worth even $15MM).
You are right about Pavano sucking, though Pavano (a) was actually pursued by a number of teams when he became a FA; (b) was seen as a decent FA pickup at the time.
And he’s off the books this year (plus, from things Pete has written, I’m pretty sure the Yankees are getting some insurance money back for him).
Igawa sucks, and was a mistake. But he’s a $4MM mistake per year, which might have value to someone in the NL.
Farnsworth was also a mistake, though he’s been decent this year (surely his production is worth at least the $3.5MM that was paid to Hawkins for a 1 year deal or the $3MM paid to Vizcaino last year).
The Yankees ARE working on not having to sign Pavano’s, Wright’s, Farnsworth’s or Igawa’s.
That’s NOT what we are discussing here, since I assume we both agree that it is a sane decision for the Yankees to produce as much pitching as they can, so they don’t have to sign Karsay’s, Quantrill’s and Farnsworth’s (or Pavano’s and Wright’s).
So in summation, it’s not really $54MM out the window. It’s really the $10MM for Pavano, the $4MM for Igawa and (AT MOST) about an extra $10 to $12M for Damon/Giambi/Farns.
Are you really arguing that the Yankees could not do deals in the off-season because of $25MM worth of contracts? (of which most is coming off the books this season, Damon next).
I don’t buy it.
NY becomes a snowball of emotions, both good and bad with its sports coaches and GM’s.
Last year, Tom Coughlin couldn’t coach. Couldn’t relate to today’s players. Eli wasn’t a “winner (at least according to Mike Francesa). Jerry Reese? How can he replace Ernie Accorsi.
All of a sudden, things fall into place. Coughlin does a great job. Eli wins. Reese’s draft produces guys that help him win the Super Bowl.
All of a sudden, everything is right with the world.
How this relates to Cash is, he put it on the line for the young kids this year. While we can all debate about it (I still think it was the right move), Hughes and Kennedy both bombed and are on the DL.
Now, even though its the right move long term, IMO, Joba goes to the rotation.
If it works, like with Resse, Manning and Coughlin, he’s “right”.
If it doesn’t, the torrent of negativity toward Cashman will be such that it will be hard for him to keep his job.
Not saying its right. Just saying, that’s how it goes in NY.
Need proof? Just listen to Francesa’s idiotic rants today.
Thought that this was interesting diversion on a day like today. You can vote as to which games go on the official Yankee Stadium DVD. Information is at the link below.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....p;c_id=nyy
I’m not sure why Cashman gets so much heat on this board. No GM is perfect, and sending a team out onto the field with no lefthanded reliever (or, Billy Traber as the lefthanded reliever) and a very unbalanced bench (if nothing else, I think we broke the AL record for most first basemen on an opening day roster who can’t field the position worth a damn). But these are this-year, short-term issues on a team that, as SJ points out all the time, was not designed with this year in mind.
To me, the way to really, truly examine Cashman is on the fact that he took over 2 1/2 years ago (before that, he had limited power), and since then, he has fundamentally changed the way the Yanks do business, and that change has been extremely healthy. Specifically:
- Build the farm system, especially the pitching
- Don’t trade top prospects for short-term, over-priced help
- Don’t give a way huge, multiyear contracts on the free agent market
And he has succeeded in all three. Think what you want about the minor league system, but it has gone from a joke to respected throughout the lead (mainly the pitching).
Cashman also resisted youth-for-aging-vets deals like Gagne at the trade deadline last year.
And, other than a four-year deal to Damon, he hasn’t given out a major free agent contract (and, at the time, the Damon deal was for far less in years and dollars that Boras was asking for, even though the Yanks’ only in-house option was Bubba Crosby). No Zito, etc. (As bad as the Igawa deal turned out, the salary portion was a relatively — I said RELATIVELY — harmless $4/year; the posting fee doesn’t count against the luxury tax.)
So peole can quibble at the corners all they want, but Cashman did nothing short of rescue the organization 2 1/2 years ago from five years of Giambi-like panic buys.
The organization is so much healthier than it was 2 1/2 years ago from a long-term view. The guy has done a great job in that regard.
SJ the thing about his rants vs Reese he was in favor off him at the beginning then he piggy banked and bandwagoned around the 2nd rd.
1st of all, lets see how Joba does first in the starting role before we make any kind of assumptions. He has only proved that he can picth in the back end, lets wait & see how he can pitch for 6-7 innings before we go saying whether he is going to be good or bad.
as for Kennedy, yeah he hasnt been pitching to what was expected but, lots of pitchers have struggled in their rookie seasons. Its just a matter of having patience and NY is not a place for patience maybe the organization has gave them time but, not the fans.
I don’t hate Giambi. I think he’s a functional DH. Not a good option at first.
Is he worth 15 million? Nope. Youkilis isn’t making 13 million and is a better all around first baseman than Giambi.
If you are asking me which guy I’d rather have on the team, its Youkilis in a landslide.
Despite the stats of the moment, game on the line, who do you want at the plate, Jason Giambi or Manny Ramirez?
I mean, come one, Giambi isn’t in Ramirez’s overall class as a hitter. Even when he was a great player.
I don’t discount the 26 million they threw away in Japan for Igawa in my analysis. A lot of money to waste on a Single A pitcher, IMO.
This off-season was one in which the free agent pool was poor. There really couldn’t put that kind of money into any players worth the money they were seeking.
Perhaps the trade market could have been more fruitful or, and this gets back to scouting, they could have done a better job with bench options.
But, when you are saddled with bad contracts, getting the raising the payroll (ie, overpaying for bench help) becomes tough.
I’m just saying, once they get out from under the contracts they have following the season, I hope they don’t go back to their failed way of doing business.
Listen, I don’t think anyone should get a 7 year contract. 7 years is way too long to lock anyone up and I include Arod in that.
However, if the rest of baseball is going to go 5-6 years on free agents in their prime (28-32), we’re also going to have to do deals like that in the future.
We can’t say “phew” now that Giambi and the rest of the payroll burdens are gone and swear we’re never going to do that again.
We need a GM who is a good talent evaluator and signs players who have less question marks.
If you think we’re getting CC, like some foolish people in here have posted, for a 3-4 year deal, you’re on crack.
He’s going to take 6.
Do I want him for 6? No.
But if Cashman can’t come up with a proven starter, year 5-6 is the cost of doing business.
He didn’t want to go 4 years on Posada. But year 4 was the cost of doing business.
If you don’t make those deals, then you put rookies and backups into starting roles. Sometimes you discover someone awesome, but a lot of times you realize they are just rookies and backups.
Thinking this organization is going to rely on replacing from within is a recipe for disaster.
We don’t have the position prospects ready to come up this year. Most project a few years down the line.
But that’s the thing — they only “project”. Projecting doesn’t mean they will actually pan out.
The rookies who have helped this team over the years have been in season promotions who came up after conquering the minors and beat out vets who were struggling or filled needs we had on the team.
Joba, Cano, Melky, Wang, Rasner (to some extent) all were promoted during the year rather than anointed like Hughes and Kennedy were this season.
Hughes has been a failure thus far in his career. How can you say he hasn’t been.
Does it mean he’s a failure from here on in? No. But it does stand to reason that it’s time to temper expectations for a 21 year old starter who doesn’t stay off the DL and has yet to throw 180 innings at the big league level.
He will not be ready to start a full season next year because of the lost innings this year. Same as last year. He needs to be healthy and produce to be counted on.
I don’t hate him. I don’t think he’s junk. But he has to prove himself. Some of you guys think he already has. But the fact of the matter is, he hasn’t.
I want a GM who not only will sign a big ticket guy, but will take chances on low risk pickups, like we did once with Lieber.
I want a GM who will make trades and not cling to prospects. Some of them may turn out to be great on other teams and some of them won’t. But you can’t just hold on to potential without getting major league production.
I hope the team doesn’t shy away from going for great players who make it to free agency. I don’t want an all star at every position, but if a guy like Tex makes it to free agency, we should at least be in on it.
If not, then we should trade some kids for a real 1b and stop trying to put SS and OF’er at 1b once and for all.
The Jason Giambi contract was a good contract by Cashman.
Here are Giabi’s OPS and rank among MLB firstbasemen:
2002: 1.034 / 1st
2003: 0.939 / 4th
2004: injured half the year
2005: 0.975 / 5th
2006: 0.971 / 5th
2007: injured half the year
2008: 0.915 / 5th
Is it perfect? No. But that’s not bad for a 7 year period. When he’s healthy, he plays really well.
Mitch,
Good points all.
In re: the Damon deal, the biggest drawback to that deal that I could make is that Damon was not going to be able to play CF for all of 4 years, and he was being valued as if he could (though he can play CF in a pinch).
But let’s be frank – after last year’s Andruw Jones deal, wouldn’t Damon have gotten at least $13MM per for 2 years?
Because that’s what Damon’s contract is right now – a 2 year deal (or a 1 2/3 year deal at this point), since 2006 and 2007 are long gone.
oh good Dave Eiland will be on next
Roster-related question(s): If a player is signed to a major league deal, then he is guaranteed a spot on the 25-man active roster/40-man roster, right? And to create room if necessary, he can be shifted to the 60-day DL, which is limited to a particular number of players? And then there is the DFA possibility and trades.
Beyond those, are there other ways are there to create roster space with a guy on a ML contract?
JRVJ,
That’s a good point about Jones.
G. Love,
I agree with your cost of doing business argument. Certainly, you overpay in years to get the benefit of the earlier part of the contract. I think the Angels did that on the Hunter deal. And you’re 100 percent right that Cash did that for Posada.
I would just say that, to me, there are two issues with that. One, I’d be way more likely to overpay in years on one of my own guys (like Posada) on the theory that you know how he performs in the NY environment. You never know which outside guy is going to go Randy Johnson/Jose Contreras/Javier Vazquez on us. Second, I think it’s okay to overpay in years on one or two FA contracts. But, if you’re not careful, you fall into the situation SJ was talking about that the Yanks face this year, with guys at or near the ends of their deals taking key places (Giambi and Farnsworth leap to mind), limiting your flexibility.
sj-
i think joba is a tipping point for the yankees. how he goes will be how the team goes.
a lot of things will fall into place if he does as expected.
G. Love – good post.
Just jumped on to read and there have been some great posts today. I thought that luxury tax was spread out to teams but I learned above I believe from TKINDC that it goes to an MLB fund.
Also, I just can not believe that Joba will not be very solid. He may have some innings that he struggles with command as he mixes pitches but his stuff is too electric. I actually believe it is a good thing for the Yanks to have Kennedy out of the equation for the time being expediate the starting role for Joba.
Last night sucked for all of us. I stayed up late night to watch Father time Timlin ruin my nights sleep and you guys had to watch 2-4 run leads get blown. Why do I get the feeling that most MLB players sleep better than I do after a gut wrenching loss??
Randy- Side note. My Mother in Law frequents your store. You will recognize her when we stop in to say hello in June. She loves your place. What a small freakin world.
-dennis
Kay is annoying. Hughes is not a strikeout pitcher because he doesn’t throw 98 like Joba? I don’t know who’s worse Kay or Mike and Chris.
SJ44,
Let me go through your post line by line:
“I don’t hate Giambi. I think he’s a functional DH. Not a good option at first.
HE IS 6TH IN THE AL IN OPS (AND 7TH IN SLG). HE IS NOT A FUNCTIONAL DH, HE IS AN ELITE HITTER, AS COUNTERSENSICAL AS THAT WOULD SEEM AT THIS POINT.
Is he worth 15 million? Nope. Youkilis isn’t making 13 million and is a better all around first baseman than Giambi.
YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS – YOUKILIS IS NOT A FA ACQUSITION. GREAT FOR THE SOX THAT THEY HAVE HIM ON THE CHEAP, BUT THAT’S NOT A FAIR COMPARISON TO MAKE.
If you are asking me which guy I’d rather have on the team, its Youkilis in a landslide.
THAT’S A STRAWMAN ANSWER – EVERYONE WOULD PREFER YOUKILIS FOR WHAT HE’S MAKING, BUT THAT’S NOT AN OPTION, IS IT?
Despite the stats of the moment, game on the line, who do you want at the plate, Jason Giambi or Manny Ramirez?
I mean, come one, Giambi isn’t in Ramirez’s overall class as a hitter. Even when he was a great player.
IF YOU GO BY OPS+, GIAMBI WAS A BETTER HITTER IN HIS PRIME.
THEIR BEST 5 OPS SEASONS ARE: A) FOR GIAMBI, 198, 187, 172, 161 and 153;
B) FOR RAMIREZ 186, 184, 165, 161 AND 160.
SO GIAMBI’S 3 BEST SEASONS WERE BETTER THAN RAMIREZ’S BEST THREE. THEY’RE TIED IN THEIR 4TH SEASON, AND RAMIREZ’ 5TH BEST IS BETTER THAN GIAMBI’S.
PERHAPS YOU MEANT CLUTCHINESS – THOUGH THAT’S AN ETHEREAL QUALITY, RAMIREZ IS PROBABLY BETTER AT CLUTCH THAN GIAMBI, BUT SO ARE MANY PLAYERS.
I don’t discount the 26 million they threw away in Japan for Igawa in my analysis. A lot of money to waste on a Single A pitcher, IMO.
I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS. THOUGH ADMITTEDLY, SOME VALUE WAS SEEN IN IGAWA, SINCE THE YANKEES WERE NOT THE SOLE BIDDER.
This off-season was one in which the free agent pool was poor. There really couldn’t put that kind of money into any players worth the money they were seeking.
EXACTLY. PART OF THE REASON IS THE ONE I EXPLAINED TO CB, BUT GENERALLY, I LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE ACCEPTING THAT CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
Perhaps the trade market could have been more fruitful or, and this gets back to scouting, they could have done a better job with bench options.
PERHAPS. AND PERHAPS NOT.
But, when you are saddled with bad contracts, getting the raising the payroll (ie, overpaying for bench help) becomes tough.
LOOK, ON SOME LEVEL OF COURSE IT IS BETTER NOT TO HAVE BAD CONTRACTS, AND OF COURSE THOSE BAD CONTRACTS AFFECT THINGS. BUT YOU ARE PASSING A SUPPOSITION (SUCH AS THE ONE I ANSWERED ABOVE WITH “PERHAPS. AND PERHAPS NOT”) AND PASSING IT OFF AS A FACT.
I’m just saying, once they get out from under the contracts they have following the season, I hope they don’t go back to their failed way of doing business.”
I ALSO HOPE THE YANKEES ARE SMARTER IN THE WAY THEY DO BUSINESS, BUT I DON’T THINK WE AGREE ON WHAT THE MISTAKES ARE.
I THINK MITCH EXPLAINED WHAT CASHMAN IS DOING VERY WELL. GOING AFTER TWO FAs (AS OPPOSED TO ONE, WHICH YOU DON’T SEEM TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH) SHOULD NOT PREVENT THE YANKEES FROM BUILDING THE FARM SYSTEM OR TRADING PROSPECTS (OTHER THAN EXCESS ASSETS, SUCH AS RH ARMS, AS MENTIONED BY CB) FOR SHORT-TERM HELP.
HoLy cRaP yOu mIgHt aS wElL wRiTe lIkE tHiS
For Joba to be successful as a starter he will have to throw lots of strikes and few balls. Other teams know that he has not been a starter for 2 years and will be on a low pitch count, the tendency will be to wait him out make him throw lots of pitches and by the 5th inning he’s gone. Then they are into our fantastic bullpen which is now down one of our horses out there. What a mess.
Joba may well be the only stud in the bunch. Kennedy was vastly overrated and Hughes can’t seem to no get himself hurt, even though not hurt he was pitching terrible this year.
“How this relates to Cash is, he put it on the line for the young kids this year. While we can all debate about it (I still think it was the right move), Hughes and Kennedy both bombed and are on the DL.
Now, even though its the right move long term, IMO, Joba goes to the rotation.
If it works, like with Resse, Manning and Coughlin, he’s “rightâ€.
If it doesn’t, the torrent of negativity toward Cashman will be such that it will be hard for him to keep his job.”
I agree this is the way things will unfold for Cashman. Like many others here, I believe in what he is building and wholeheartedly support the changes he’s made in the way the organization is run. If the worst happens with the kids, and he doesn’t get a new contract next year, it might not be so bad because, like Acorsi did, he’ll have laid the foundation for the next GM.
Only thing is, a moron sure didn’t take over for Acorsi. If Cash leaves, the person who takes over for him has to be on a similar page as far as continuing what he’s started. And that’s what really worries me, that his replacement will be someone who caves under the “win now” pressure and goes back to the old way of giving megadeals to past-prime FA’s, destroying everything Cash has worked on. That would be the ultimate in nightmarish.
The problem is other than Kevin Towers, who is probably not going anywhere, I can’t think of a single person I’d like to see take over who would do a better job than Cash. I know this is all what-ifs but for those who are more familiar than I with various execs around baseball, is there anyone you can see successfully taking the reins if it comes to that?
This may be news to some on this blog, but Cash doesnt evaluate talent. His job is to get the evaluations from the scouts (The Stick for one, Marty for another) and then make his decision on the right move or fit for the team at that time. Those that keep saying Cash can’t evaluate talent, don’t understand what a GMs’ job is really about.
Yes, the decision is his, but without very good scouting/evaluations from his people…any GM is going to make many mistakes. Sorry ’bout that, but one gets very weary of hearing the same thing over and over. He has nothing to do with evaluation, just the decision…and blame. 27/08?
dennis-
that is a nice coincidence,and it is a small world. it seems like half the world goes through here in the summertime. cape league starting up soon .can’t wait.
Hmm, a large factor in the disagreement with big contracts is that towards the backend, the price is high and the guy’s fading, so overall it just gets hard to move around, be it to trade to another team or swallow a huge chunk of cash for nothing.
Of course, contracts tend to be backloaded.
Can teams try to frontload the contracts? Same overall price/years, but make the backend more appetizing for roster movement, barring 10 and 5 rights and no-trade clauses?
We are looking forward to catching an Orleans Cardinal game whle we are there.
Good Luck this eve.
-dennis
Mitch,
I think you’re right that you never know which guys will go Jose Contreras or Javier Vazquez on you, but then again, outside of brief glimpses of greatness, have those guys been that great for anyone? Randy Johnson was not as bad as he seemed and everyone knew going in that that was a dangerous deal, but it was one that George had to make.
Besides these specifics, though, you never know whether a free agent is going to pan out, but that doesn’t mean you don’t make free agent signings, it just means that the GM should do his job and identify good signings. I think Cash is going to have to be less gun-shy if, after looking over Sabathia and Tex, they seem like good bets for the next four to five years. Sure, they might get injured, and they’ll definitely slow down towards the end, but that’s the nature of the business. When you have the option to make a signing that improves the club and it just costs money, I think you do it. I don’t know if Tex and CC are the answers, but they’re certainly worth a hard look by our GM.
i cannot disagree with G. Love @ 2:39 more.
Hughes & Kennedy failed? wow. let’s talk in five years, then we can see if they failed.
SJ is right on the money as to bloated veteran contracts. we became as addicted to them this decade as we did in the 80’s, and have won almost the exact number of championships both decades.
like i said, the Tampa Bay Rays are 10 games over .500. we’re two games under. their pitchers are starting to look like they’ve turned the corner. we’re talking about two of ours retiring at the end of the year, possibly. sometimes, you just need to suck in order to get better.
(god, that last line just begs for a “that’s what she said” joke….)
Here is the deal, Cashman’s easiest way out of this. He signs me (actually a very good 1b) for a series of 1yr deals with options of course. I believe I can be had for oh, half a mill. He can then use the Gman or Tex or whoever other than Wison as my offensive replacement in the first inning. It works for me anyway.
Jorge,
If you read my post you would see that I said they have failed for now.
Up until this point, what exactly have they done to be successful and help this team?
Are their careers failures? No.
But if this were college, their first semester GPA would 0.0
Contracts aside, let a valuable lesson be learned from this year.
Never – but NEVER – hand the No. 4 and 5 starting rotation slots to two pitchers with small sample sizes before spring training has even started regardless of what hype they bring.
In the cases of Hughes and Kennedy the Yankess used the wrong approach with both.
The Santana situation consumed too much of Cashman’s time at the winter meetings that should have been used to find a back end of the rotation solution or what some call an innings eater.
By the time Bill Smith of the Twins was finished jerking teams around it was too late and spring training fast approaching. Instead of Hughes and Kennedy told that they had to earn their way, they were told the jobs were theirs to lose and it backfired.
Act in haste and repent in leisure.
I say no to Paul Byrd, Why keep reminding everbody that we are HGH friendly ?
The days of wild spending are over. The likes of George, Ted Turner, Gene Autry and others are long gone. Fiscal sanity is now the name of the game and thankfully Hank & Hal Steinbrenner have come on board. They were never on board with their father’s love of marquee names like Giambi and stayed way for that very reason.
The money coming off the books will not cause them to go after Sabathia and Teixeira at any cost. One or the other but not both. Possibly not either one. In the grand scheme of things, ludicrous spending is not a fit.
I think that Kennedy,Joba,Hughes won’t be in the rotation next year.They need 200 innings again next year from somebody and three kids can’t even go 160 innings next year.
CC might have to cost a money and picks but the Yankees real power is not getting first round picks but high risk players who fall in the draft.
“joba said somewhere that kennedy was his best friend. think that will create a rift?”
No. Joba & Ian have been playing a long time together, in fact they came up together in the minor leagues. When they’ve been friends that long baseball shouldn’t come between them.
I would have done the Hughes/Melky deal for Santana but I don’t fault Cashman at all for not going after a 4-5 innings eater starter. The Yankees entered the season with 6 starters (counting Joba) for 5 slots and some potential fill-ins in Rasner and Karstens. There was no real need for more veteran depth.
When you compared the Yankees probable rotation in the off-season, it looked a lot more solid than what they used to make the playoffs with last year. Quite frankly, it still does. Moose is pitching better than expected. Joba and Rasner at the back of the rotation should be fine. And Hughes still may contribute in the 2nd half.
No one was expecting Hughes and Kennedy to pitch as poorly as they both did and get hurt. If nothing else, you would have expected that we’d win more of those games just on the basis of our offensive talent. But the offense hasn’t been there on any consistent basis. That’s really been the biggest problem and hopefully things have turned a corner on that front.
I think Phil and Ian need to go to the AFL to fill up innings
I don’t know if they will but Sabathia is different, because a) he only costs money and a draft pick instead of multiple players AND money, and b) some big contracts are coming off the books this year, like Giambi’s.
britton’s back
G’s slugging % is 50 points higher than David Ortiz and his OBP is nearly 30 pojints higher. Even when he was batting below .200 Jason wasn’t really that awful because with the walks and HRS he was racking up a decent number of total bases against not all that many outs.
Excellent baseball conversation on this thread. Love to see the different povs intelligently and forcefully articulated, without flames and insults. Good stuff.
>>>>I think we also have to look at trading a young arm or two. You can’t just sit on your farm system and assume everyone will win a Cy Young award.
Apparently Cashman, the baseball genius of the century, thinks he knows everything there is to know about baseball and believes Kennedy and Hughes are the Cy Young types. Under Cashman, whoever he hyped automatically becomes the next Roger Clemens.