Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on May 29, 2008 
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Perhaps I’m alone in this and more people than usual will tell me what an idiot I am.
But why not leave Joba Chamberlain in to pitch the ninth inning last night?
Jobamania has just retired four batters in a row, three by strikeout. He dominated Ramon Hernandez and Jay Payton. The Orioles has Adam Jones, Alex Cintron and Brian Roberts due up in the ninth. Jones and Cintron are 0 for 1 against Joba in their careers. Roberts had never faced him. The Yankees were up by two runs.
Mariano Rivera had thrown 31 pitches over two innings the night before. Let him get a night off and leave the kid in to pitch. With the way Joba was throwing, Baltimore had no chance.
But, no, enter Sandman. Mo did his job and that was that. When I asked Joe Girardi whether he considered leaving Chamberlain in the game, he looked at me askance.
“Mo was coming in for a save situation no matter what,” he said.
Joe Girardi may have the Baseball Prospectus annual on his bookshelf and he knows how to turn on his laptop. But unless I’m missing something, he manages pretty much like Joe Torre. If anything, he’s more conservative. The Yankees rarely steal bases or hit-and-run.
His bullpen management is fairly identical as well. The Yankees have relievers who pitch when they can win (Mo, Farnsworth, Joba) and those for lost causes (Ohlendorf, Hawkins, Veras, Britton) and those they can’t quite decide on (Ramirez). Just like Torre (and every other manager in the game), he uses his closer in conventional closer situations.
Which is fine. Thinking that way won a lot of games for a lot of years. I thought Torre did just well for the most part outside of abusing certain relievers. The best way to manage a team like the Yankees is to leave the players alone and let them play to their means.
But those out there who believed Girardi would be this number-crunching innovator must be wondering what happened.
Girardi is far, far more involved in player development, which is great. It also seems he’s much more invested in using scouting reports to prepare for games. Nothing escapes him. I think he’s a sharp guy and was a good choice to replace Torre.
But when you watch the games, is there that much of a difference than last season?
Mo gets a night off tonight
and plus, i get a save for my fantasy team
Plus, of course, there’s the fact that Joba was supposed to throw more pitches anyway.
Perhaps they didnt want Joba to start the 9th…and go over his pitch total to only have to have Rivera come in for an out or 2?
Pete,
I agree with you that Girardi should have kept Chamberlain in the game last night. I think the Yankees look silly taking him out and having him finish his pitches in the bullpen then expect him to start a game next Tuesday.
There is the off day today, Pete. You have a small lead…you goto your closer. Textbook.
…I think your doing the whole mountain out of a mole hill thing….
I would have left Chamberlain in as well. He had less than 30 pitches, I think…and since he was supposed to kick it up to the 50s, he could have done that in the 9th facing the back end and the first batters of the O’s lineup.
Even though everyone gets a day off today, I think Mo should have been rested yesterday and let Joba get the rest of the way…no matter how you simulate pitches in the bullpen, they’re not going to compare to a game situation.
You have a valid point, but the bottom line: the Yankees won the game, so I’m not complaining.
Joba had 27 pitches left. That would seem sufficient to get three outs.
Joe Girardi is even more conservative that Joe Torre.
As a man who didn’t think there was anything wrong with Torre, I am very displeased with the job of Girardi so far.
Amazing that some people think bringing in the best closer ever is a mistake.
“His bullpen management is fairly identical as well.”
BTW, totally disagree with this one.
i could be wrong, but i really doubt we’d have seen as much of Edwar, Veras, or Ohlendorf this season if Torre was still around. of course it’s hard to compare the work of 2 managers with different toolbox’s, but i think girardi has been doing a great job distributing the workload.
Amazing that some people think bringing in the best closer ever is a mistake.
I don’t have a huge problem with bringing in Mo…but I do think that they should have given the 9th to Joba given that he hadn’t pitched in a few days leading up to this and Mo had gone 2 innings yesterday. I trust both Joba and Mo to do the job, but since it was a softer side of the order, what’s wrong with continuing with Joba?
After a win, to my mind it is hard to quibble about how it happened. Joba got his work in by throwing in the bullpen – if this is qualitatively different from in-game then IDK what to do about it.
Getting swept by the O’s would have REALLY sucked.
This “Mo was coming in for a save situation no matter what.” comment is ridiculous. Francona uses Okajima a lot of times to give Papelbon enough rest. Why can Girardi apply this same philosophy?
Pete,
I’d be willing to be that if the Yanks had won on Tuesday, Joba would have stayed in the 9th.
At that point, however, Girardi probably felt (with some reason) that he HAD to win Wednesday’s game.
I don’t fault him too much for that.
Also, one question – you’ve mentioned often how this is a family blog and such, but some of the ads being run are somewhat racy (yesterday there was an add for lesbian meet-ups and I’ve seen a stripper/pole dancer ad a couple of times today).
I realize Lohud wants to make money but what gives?
I really have to agree here. He’s been a disappointment so far. The only area where I see him as superior to Torre is bullpen management, but even there, he made an absolutely atrocious move yesterday. We basically lost Tuesday’s game for nothing. I’m also getting tired of him forcing Duncan and Ensberg into the lineup and taking Abreu/Matsui/Giambi out when neither of those 2 are hitting above the Mendoza line. By running out a lineup with Duncan instead of Giambi he’s making us a weaker team. He doesn’t utilize the players’ speed at all, either.
At the end of the season, could you please do a comparison of the innings pitched by the top 3 relievers under Torre vs. the top 3 reliever under Girardi?
Put a reminder in your outlook or on your phone.
Thank you. I’m curious to see if their bullpen management is the same.
I don’t get what conservative has to do with it.
Would it have been more conservative to give Mo the night off after 2 innings the night before? I could make that argument.
Joe let the closer close. We won the game. All’s right with the world.
i like both joes. i didnt want to see torre leave, but im happy with girardi. if you’re saying that he’s basically the same as torre, than id have to say that even if firing torre was a bad idea, they made up for it by picking a guy who is similar.
but i really think that more than anything, it points out how overrated managers are in the grand scheme of things.
Peter Abraham : “Did you consider leaving Chamberlain in the game?”
Joe Girardi : “Why does your blog have stripper and porn advertisements?”
Now THAT would have been funny.
I’ve been surprised to see how Girardi has managed the pen this year.
Is it exactly like Torre did? No.
Is it closer than what one would have guessed coming into the season? Yes.
He seems to have divided up the pen into guys he “trusts” and those he doesn’t. To me that’s the biggest and most surprising thing.
Some examples:
There were a couple of instances when he the game was tied on the road in the 9nth and he didn’t use Mo. Very conventional move.
He overused Ohelndorf in the beginning of the season. Then he lost all confidence in him.
Never used Chris Britton.
Using Joba as a kind of security blanket (leaving him in to pitch with an 8 run lead…)
Again – no one could ever manage a bull pen like Torre. But Girardi has not been as innovative as the pre-season narrative was suggesting he’d be.
There’s nothing wrong with this per se and I do think his management of the bullpen is evolving. For example, he brought mo in with the game tied in the 9nth twice recently.
We’ll see. It’s still very early. I think Girardi is still evolving as a manager and it’s been tough on him with the injuries and inconsistencies from the rotation.
Good point Peter. If anything Girardi isn’t really following stats and taking chances, he’s making foolish mistakes that even Torre wouldn’t make. When he let Mussina pitch to Manny Ramirez twice, Torre wouldn’t have left Mussina in the game, no matter what Mussina told him.
The difference between Girardi and Torre is that Torre knew how to handle the media and his players on a personal level. GI Joe Girardi still needs to loosen his collar a bit.
Pete: you’re right about Torre/Girardi for the most part, but to his credit I think Joe G has stuck with Giambi at 1B through thick and thin and now (almost June), it’s finally starting to pay off. Joe T would’ve never given Giambi the chance to play 1B so much and if had he started him there in April, he would’ve pulled him a long time ago after the slow start at the plate, the groin pull and the usual lousy throws. Now, Giambi seems to be finally getting comfortable around 1B, makes the occasional good throw and is HITTING!
My point is more that Girardi manages just like Torre, not whether Joba should have stayed in the game. I’m not saying that was a mistake. I’m just saying that it’s interesting that they don’t do things much differently, that’s all.
I’m not a Torre basher, but I agree with the sentiment above that we probably wouldn’t be seeing Ramirez or Ohlendorf with Torre.
That said, I agree with Pete in general. However, he should be prepared for the wrath of his no-maas groupies.
I think you need to cut girardi a little slack. You yourself have noted not long ago that the yankees have had their fair share of set backs and all things considered they are not in that bad shape. In order to steal and hit and run you need guys on and hitting the ball, jeter and arod have missed time/been injured (they both typically steal and run a bit), cano couldnt hit a truck until recently so not hit and runs were on with at bat, jorge has been out and would be a guy you’d hit and run with while he was batting, giambino was a mess until he grew that stache. that leaves damon… not exactly a fair judgement
Interesting mention in Jayson Stark’s column. Sorry if I’m repeating:
Kei Igawa isn’t quite as buried on that Yankees’ depth chart as Carl Pavano, but it’s close. And he’s already homesick. We’ve heard from two different baseball men recently that Igawa asked the Yankees over the winter if there was any way he could return to Japan. The Yankees quietly explored their options, got nowhere and gave up. They’re still on the hook for nearly $11 million to Igawa through the 2010 season.
“i could be wrong, but i really doubt we’d have seen as much of Edwar, Veras, or Ohlendorf this season if Torre was still around.”
Torre picked Ohlendorf to make the post season roster last year. Veras was also in the conversation to make the post season roster.
Two nights ago in the 11th Girardi chose to go to LaTroy Hawkins instead of Veras. The Orioles had 3 left handed hitters coming up. Lefties are hitting .333 with a 1.025 OPS against Hawkins this year.
Hawkins was clearly selected to pitch the 11th because he was a veteran rather than Veras.
That’s fine. But I think I’ve seen that kind of logic before.
I only have one quibble: “The Yankees rarely steal bases or hit-and-run.”
I think that had to do with the injuries (probably weather related) early on more than anything. Just this week both Jeter and ARod stole 2 bases (thanks for the boost to my fantasy stats, guys
).
That is an interesting point. Anyone know if they’d have to pay the remainder of his contract if he did go back to Japan?
One thing that Joe G has done this year which i’ve never seen Torre to, not even in game 4 of the 2003 world series, is bring Mo into a tie game on the road.
CB –
Hawkins vs. Veras the other night was a tough call. Veras has not been very good in high leverage spots either.
Year 4 without a LHRP is just like years 1-3. A harvest of sorrow.
“Joe Girardi may have the Baseball Prospectus annual on his bookshelf and he knows how to turn on his laptop. … The Yankees rarely steal bases or hit-and-run.”
isn’t that’s exactly what would happen if a manager had BP on his bookshelf?
… but girardi has a much more youthful hat kick than torre.
I agree with you, Pete. If I was managing, I probably would’ve left Joba in for the 9th last night, especially since Mo had thrown 30 pitches the night before. Also, I might have even left Mariano in the night before (when Hawkins blew it) to try and close it out. Considering Mo would have then really thrown a lot of pitches, I’d have given him at least the 2 nights off, maybe even a 3rd. I know it’s second guessing at this point, but that was my thoughts on the last 2 games.
i think we’re also going to see joe g’s style evolve as the season goes on. im a buisness manager and when i move from one position to another, i tread gently in the beginning and try to keep everybody in thier comfort zone until i see opportunities to deviate from the norm.
mlb veterans dont take well to major changes and it was important for joe to establish credibility with his new troops. and it has paid off with giambi and cano now hitting after joe showed a ton of faith in them during thier slumps.
i think the running game has been shut down b/c of injuries and slumping hitters and add to that the fact that there’s just not much speed on this team to begin with.
and again, there’s not that much different anybody could do with this team, especially considering how lame the bench has been to this point.
“My point is more that Girardi manages just like Torre”
Ridiculous!
Torre never kicked his cap and was therefore clearly not trying as hard to win.
Do I have to explain EVERYTHING to you guys?
Girardi spreads the load much more evenly than Torre. And isn’t afraid to go to Rookies.
I agree with Pete that Girardi is almost like Torre. The bullpen is managed the same way, and people say Torre wouldn’t use Ross or Veras than who exactly would he be using Hawkins for 3 innings every night.
Also Joe Torre said last year he didn’t want a Milton Bradley or a Morgan Ensberg to come to the team because they would rot on the bench, and what is Ensberg doing on the Yankees this year rotting on the bench.
i think the team is starting to show more signs of life with stealing the bases and hit and runs. i think that a) they were be cautious with the injuries to A-Rod and Jeter and b) they haven’t been in a lot of situations where they could execute those plays.
What JR said. If they won Tuesday, Joba pitches the 9th. But, needing a win, you go to Mariano. Its the right move, IMO. Save situation, its Mariano’s game.
Mariano also hasn’t pitched that much this year. He’s not been overused at all.
I think he manages the bullpen differently than Torre in one regard. He doesn’t lean on just one pitcher.
He’s not burning guys out. That’s a big distinction.
Every manager has “loves and hates” in their bullpen.
Pete, you remember the old saying players had about relief pitchers and Torre: “The only thing worse than being on Torre’s bad side, is being on his good side”! lol
As far as running less, isn’t that a byproduct of injuries? Damon has been playing with a bad groin. Jeter and Arod have had leg injuries. They are the only real guys with speed on the team.
Hit and run? Doing less of it but, they are not reaching base with the frequency they have (at least not yet) had in other seasons.
No question, Girardi and Torre are alike in many ways. Not necessarily a bad thing given the success Torre had in NY.
My feeling on Torre is simple. He did a Hall of Fame job with the Yankees and it was time to go.
Sometimes in sports, you can stay in one spot too long and that’s not good for anybody.
I firmly believe in the John Madden Rule when it comes to coaches and managers. Ten years at one spot and you move on.
At some point, guys tune you out, get too comfortable, and you need a new voice. IMO, that was happening to the Yankees. As much as Joe shielded a lot of stuff away from the players, I don’t think enough guys on that team laid it on the line for him. Some took advantage of the way he treated them.
The new voice may say and do the same thing as the old voice but, for whatever reason, guys often respond.
Kind of like trying to impress the new boss.
“Hawkins vs. Veras the other night was a tough call. Veras has not been very good in high leverage spots either.”
I’m not saying it was an easy decision. And I’m not even criticizing the move.
Veras hasn’t really had many opportunities in high leverage spots or against lefty hitters.
That’s kind of the point.
You have a choice between a veteran who has been given opportunities in high leverage spots and failed. He’s also gotten opportunities against left handed batters and done poorly.
The other choice is a younger player who has been used sparingly this year in a high leverage spot.
The decision was made to use to veteran with the known, poor track record over the more undertain rookie who has better stuff.
I’m not saying that’s the wrong decision – it’s just that, that’s pretty close to the same logic torre would have used in that spot.
Joe Torre did not say that, people said that because Joe Torre wouldn’t use them. Girardi has platooned fine this season, and gave Ensberg plenty of chances to prove himself.
Igawa wants to go back to Japan? What a coincidence, I have the same wish. I wouldn’t be surprised if Northwest has a non-stop flight from Minnesota if no-Kei can make his way there. Or perhaps he could be routed through Vladivostok.
Pete,
Overall, I agree with you. I would have liked to have seen Joba pitch the 9th.
However, the only reason I could think of as to why Mo was brought in was because of the backlash Girardi would have caught if Joba had somehow given up the lead or lost the game.
A walk and one bad pitch left up in the zone and that could have made a huge difference. Unlikely, yes, but at least with Rivera he can say “Hey, I brought in the greatest closer of all time, and it just happened to be one of those rare nights for him.”
I am disappointed with Girardi’s managing of the staff in general. I personally disagree with a lot of his pitching changes (timing, etc.) as well as who he chooses to bring in when.
The only thing I can say is that the roster hasn’t turned over much from when Torre left it (which isn’t entirely true
I think the thing we need to realize is that he isn’t managing the Marlins anymore. The dynamic of the Marlins and the Yankees aren’t at all similar. Girardi cannot manage the Yankees like he would the Marlins because of veteran presence, contracts, management pressure, etc. Girardi can only do so much with what he’s been given and for better or for worse, it seems, at least so far, pretty similar to Joe Torre.
My true hope is that the Yankees somehow rid themselves of Farnsworth and Hawkins and go to a majority rookie bullpen. We’ll never know if we have a Jim Johnson or a Dennis Sarfate until we do. We know what we get with Farnsworth and Hawkins, and it’s not worth the money they’re being paid.
Then Girardi pick and choose his pen arms on the basis of merit than on contract or previous history and then maybe things will be less like Torre and more like Girardi, if there really is that much of a difference at all.
Pete,
I agree with you on the managerial-style similiarities between Joe G and Joe T.
I was expecting far more stolen bases this year and a lot more hit and run scenarios. Perhaps because of injuries and lack of offense early has prevented this.
But, overall, I had been expecting less station to station and more of a National-league type offensive strategy from Girardi this season.
But who knows… Maybe when Gardner is eventually called up, G will make more use of his speed on the base paths than he has with Damon, Abreu, or Jeter.
Or maybe Damon, Abreu and Jeter have all aged and slowed considerably.
Very good points though. Anyone that calls you an idiot doesn’t watch this team day to day…
“When I asked Joe Girardi whether he considered leaving Chamberlain in the game, he looked at me askance.”
Pete
Thanks for teaching me a new word: askance
Had to look that one up:
a·skance [ ə skánss ]
Definition: suspiciously: with doubt or suspicion
And I agree with you that he should have left Joba in for the 9th. I was surprised to see Mo in there after going 2 innings the night before.
In general, I was hoping Joe Girardi would play more Billy Ball. Intead, we are getting Billy Bore.
Girardi could have had Monday’s bad outing from Veras on his mind when deciding to go to Hawkins.
I think had Veras done well Monday, he probably would have pitched the next day.
“b) they haven’t been in a lot of situations where they could execute those plays.”
Yeah. You have to get guys on base to steal and hit-and-run. They were doing a really poor job of that for a while. Damon’s gotten his OBP back up to where it normally is (still not actually that great) with his better hitting recently, but Jeter and Abreu are WAY off their career norms. And when you have a lineup full of replacements that tend to K (Duncan, Ensberg, Gonzo, Moeller), does hit-and-run make a lot of sense?
Jerkface- Many in the organization favor seeing if Andy Phillips and Shelley Duncan can provide the offensive answers. And there are also many in the organization who worry that manager Joe Torre could stand in the way of the improvements they try to make. Torre was opposed to the team’s efforts to acquire outfielder Milton Bradley when the A’s put him on waivers, and he opposed a possible deal for Houston infielder Morgan Ensberg.
There you go buddy
Re: the 9th inning last night, I said it last night and I agree with those who’ve said it today: I think Joe G went with the guy whom he thought gave the team the best chance to win, Mo.
When times are tough, as they have been, there can be a feeling that there’s no room for error. For Ian Kennedy, apparently, that meant that he felt like the outcome of the game might hang on every pitch. Which is sometimes the case, but you can’t pitch that way.
For Joe Girardi, perhaps it means that, even if you intended to be more innovative and bold in your choices, at the critical moments you retreat to what seems safest, which in turn means you take the more conservative approach in those sutuations.
I don’t know, grasping at pop psychology.
this reeks of the “off day…need something to talk about” blues
Yeah, BP is a HUGE fan of hit and run plays as well as steals. Oh..
10 years and move on? I think that’s a bit harsh. I think it depends on the coach…and I’ll keep Jerry Sloan as the head coach of the Jazz with the job he has done.
Peter, good topic with Torre coming into town with the Dodgers. Of course you are correct, doesn’t seem to be a huge difference, but there is one major difference. Girardi is in a grace period, with no job specualtion hanging over his ever move. That got old with Torre the last few years, not his fault of course, but the reality is if Torre was still managing the Yankees and they had the same record they do now, there would be endless speculation of when Torre would be fired. Everyone expects Girardi to get at least 2 full years, I think he’ll do fine and be here for a decade or more as well.
I have been an ardent defender of Joe G. on most other issues, but tend agree with you on this one Pete. And considering the two innings Mo gave the night before, afterall he’s not a kid anymore, it is long season ahead, besides Joba needed the work anyway, so what was the point?
Now I will say it is still early for Girardi to have done this, but Joe Torre did have his favorites in the pen that probably ended three guys careers.
Tanyon Sturtze
Paul Quantrill
And the VIZ
“The new voice may say and do the same thing as the old voice but, for whatever reason, guys often respond.
Kind of like trying to impress the new boss.”
that point would have a lot more gravity if several of us hadn’t noticed that this year’s yankees have, at times, seemed far more lifeless than any yankees team in recent memory.
“I think had Veras done well Monday, he probably would have pitched the next day.”
That’s the thing – does that really make sense?
A guy has his first bad outing and afterwards you lose confidence in using him the following day?
That sounds like “trust” all over again.
His bullpen management is different, and better than Torre’s. Like you say, he uses the good relievers in games he can win. But more importantly he uses them in games that are close. That is exactly when they should be used – in high leverage situations.
He is different from Torre in that he recognizes that being up by 6 runs is NOT a high-leverage situations. Torre wouldn’t use Joba (or, say, Vizcaino when he was going well) when the Yankees were down by a run, but he would use them when up by 6.
Girardi doesn’t do that.
This is better than Torre.
“Girardi could have had Monday’s bad outing from Veras on his mind when deciding to go to Hawkins.”
That’s what I thought. Veras had thrown a bunch Monday, and been bad.
SJ, do you send Ross to AAA to a) get some rest and b) get turned back into a 1-inning guy and c) work on his splitter? And who would you bring up? Giese as a swingman? Karstens as a swingman? Patterson as a short middle-innings guy?
Every manager is going to bring in Mo in that spot. Mo wants to be in the game in that spot to save the game and you don’t want to anger him.
Anyways, if you can’t see the difference between Torre’s bullpen management and Girardi’s, you haven’t been watching. Girardi has been splitting up the work pretty evenly. Torre had a few favorites than never let anyone else pitch. Torre would use his second and/or third favorite relievers in blowout games – Girardi doesn’t.
I agree with Pete.
Joe G is managing very much like Torre did. Since I really liked Torre, I like the style Girardi brings to the table. I would like to see the team hit and run and steal a few more bases, but we really don’t have the people to do that.
Does it really matter whether Joba or Mo pitched the 9th? Not really. Girardi played it by the book though, which is fine with me. Playing a wild and crazy game only gets you so far — the less mistakes you make, the better your chances of winning. So, I almost rather the conservative approach.
Veras also had that poor outing against the O’s a couple weeks ago. Maybe Joe felt the matchups didn’t favor Veras based on that? I dunno.
silly me, hitting refresh waiting for a line-up post to be made
“Just like Torre (and every other manager in the game), he uses his closer in conventional closer situations.”
Guess you missed him using Rivera in a tie game on the road YESTERDAY. Are you even watching?
billy martin had a young rickey henderson. the playing style often comes from the personnel.
girardi is a conservative guy. i don’t think creativity is one of his strong points. that’s not a put down on him. it’s just the way it is. i do remember him as being a winner though. i think he’ll do fine although i expect him to be methodical bout how he does things.
Utah isn’t a big market. Its also an, “only game in town” market. Its much easier to survive in that type of market for more than 10 years.
By and large though, look around sports in the last 20 years.
Not a lot of guys get better in their jobs after 10 years.
By “better”, I mean more successful.
Too tough these days, IMO. Between fans, media, players, its very tough for a coach/manager to hold interest and support for more than 10 years.
In big markets like NY, Chicago and LA? Just about impossible, IMO.
“I think had Veras done well Monday, he probably would have pitched the next day.â€
Also, don’t forget that Veras pitched in more than 1 inning on Monday. As opposed to LaTroy, who went only 2/3 of an inning. Couple that with the fact that Veras was bad the night before too, maybe that’s why he went with LaTroy.
“He is different from Torre in that he recognizes that being up by 6 runs is NOT a high-leverage situations. ”
How many 6 run leads has this team had this year?
I do remember the game when Joba came into the game against the White Sox when it was close, the yankees scored some runs and took a 4 run lead and joba still pitched the 8th with a 4 run lead.
How is pitching the 8th with an 4 run lead a high leverage spot, especially for a pitcher with an innings cap?
I think Girardi has managed the bullpen much better. He hasn’t ruined any careers yet. ie. Proctor, Quantril. Plus I feel he has helped Farnsworth improve.
The Turth:
It wasn’t a mistake in as much as Joba needs to get his arm stretched out. The Yankees are trying to do two things at once this season. Win and make Joba into a starting pitcher. Knowing how much Mo will be used later this season, would a second day of rest hurt? Pete is right. Considering what they are trying to do with Joba, they should have left him in.
“Mariano also hasn’t pitched that much this year. He’s not been overused at all.”
But that was because you had Joba in the pen…just watch how overused he’ll be come August and September…
Kasey,
You have a short memory my friend! lol Seriously, this team looked MUCH deader last year at this time than this year.
They were also horribly out of shape at this time last year.
That’s not been the case this year.
Last year was really awful. Sure, they have struggled this year but, not nearly like they did last year.
JMO but, I believe Ollie needs to go to AAA, put in the closers role, and develop being a short inning, power arm.
He’s not a longman and its not helping his development putting him into that role.
I’d call up Patterson. He’s pitched much better in May and its time he gets a shot.
He’s on the 40 man roster and it wouldn’t take a player move to call him up.
Damn!! I can’t spell. That post was addressed to The Truth.
I dont know about the rest of you, but I was thinking about going to Lace tonight to play with some big fake tata’s.
Lap dance, lap dance, lap dance, I got crumple in my pants.
“Also, don’t forget that Veras pitched in more than 1 inning on Monday. As opposed to LaTroy, who went only 2/3 of an inning.”
Hawkins threw 20 pitches that game. Veras 19.
“that point would have a lot more gravity if several of us hadn’t noticed that this year’s yankees have, at times, seemed far more lifeless than any yankees team in recent memory.”
Which begs the question do they look lifeless because they haven’t been getting on base or are they not getting on base because they’re lifeless?
Seems to me that when a team is playing well they often look like they have a lot more life than when they’re playing poorly.
…when you watch the games, is there that much of a difference than last season?
Not much difference. They ook like they’re in better shape, but that’s it. The point is… why did they need to humiliate Torre the way they did and bring in his clone to manage.
Just a botched situation. So far, in game managing-wise, Girardi bugs me the way Torre did.
Francis YOU’RE probably the reasson those ads are showing up
I dont see nothing wrong with a little bump and grind
“Hawkins threw 20 pitches that game. Veras 19.”
Managers give a lot of weight to pitchers sitting down and getting up again. Pitching in two different innings is thought to take a lot more of a toll on the pitchers arm than had he thrown the same amount of pitches in just one inning.
Kind of early to project out to August or September isn’t it?
At this time last year, not many Yankee fans could have picked Joba Chamberlain out of a lineup.
Who is to say another arm can’t emerge this year as an 8th inning guy?
When the Yankees HAD 8th inning studs, Mariano was pitching 2 inning saves under Torre.
Never has so much been made about the 8th inning as there has been with this Joba stuff.
Its as if this team never had any success prior to Joba going to the bullpen. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This team made the playoffs with KYLE FARNSWORTH pitching the majority of 8th innings in 2006 and 2007. Joba only got into that role in August of last year.
They can find somebody to cover one inning. They can’t find an ace. Joba is going to be an ace.
Girardi isn’t going to overuse Rivera. He knows that’s his meal ticket (a healthy Mo) for post-season success.
All I’m going to say is that two days ago, Girardi brought in Mo into the ninth inning, in a tie game, on the road. He used his bullpen exactly the way you should in that situation, starting with his best reliever and working on down. The other time he did not do it, he brought in Farnsworth in the ninth, but that was to pitch to the 7-8-9 hitters in the lineup, he then went to Mo in the 10th, game still tied.
Just imagine if Joe Torre had ever done that, instead of saving Mo to get a lead and bringing in say, Jeff Weaver. Additionally, Girardi has spread the load much, much better. Remember when Scott Proctor used to come in with the Yankees up 7 runs or something? What was the point of that? Yes, Girardi has his “good” and “bad” relievers, the difference is that he almost always uses a “good” reliever in a high leverage situation (winning or losing) and a “bad” one in a low leverage situation. Name one time this year we’ve seen a reliever pitch truly badly because he was tired from pitching in 4 or 5 games in a row? I can’t think of one. With Torre it was a ton of times. There’s a world of difference between the two, but its subtle.
“Lap dance, lap dance, lap dance, I got crumple in my pants.”
Master Ace? How old are YOU dude?
29 ray
Ace is the arguably the greatest rapper of all time
Every manager has relievers they use in winning situations and ones they use in losing ones. The difference is that Torre often categorized his relievers poorly and used them in less than ideal situations, based on arbitrary things like how hot his tea was, or if their name was Scott Proctor.
Anyone read this tidbit on Jayson Stark’s blog today:
• The Kei Market: Kei Igawa isn’t quite as buried on that Yankees’ depth chart as Carl Pavano, but it’s close. And he’s already homesick. We’ve heard from two different baseball men recently that Igawa asked the Yankees over the winter if there was any way he could return to Japan. The Yankees quietly explored their options, got nowhere and gave up. They’re still on the hook for nearly $11 million to Igawa through the 2010 season.
I think the actual lyric is “Baby look, I got trouble in my pants”…but back in 93 when that song came out, my friends and I thought he said crumple so its just what we say now even though we all know its wrong.
I wondered the same thing, Pete.
Time for some Russ’ tidbits:
Regarding the MO/Joba issue, MO gets the ball last night, he is your closer, so that issue is done. Secondly, this year/last year is the same old Yankee tune. You have very average suspect starting pitching, suspect middle relief, and good closer. This team is a year older, so that goes against them. They can’t beat the teams such as the O’s, Tampa, KC the way they should be this year and Tampa is better this year. They haven’t played on the west coast this year, they will win about 25-30% of those games. When it is all said and done, their pitching isn’t going to hold up to sniff the playoffs this year. Therefore, last year was a better team.
Off day today makes Rivera available. I don’t think that was even a question. Which is probably why he was askance.
I think using Hawkins in that spot the other night was an example of giving him a chance to prove himself in a big spot. He’s struggled, but he needed a shot to prove he can do it.
He didn’t come through, so I don’t think he’s going to get another opportunity for a while. But I don’t see it as a Torre Trust (TM) move. Not this early in the season.
I agree that Torre would not have seen the dividends that are paying off with Giambi hitting the way he is.
I also think that we’ll see young arms up here soon that will get a legitimate opportunity, that would not have happened under Torre.
Basically, it’s too soon to compare the two. We have 12 years of Torre vs. 2 months of Girardi.
“They can find somebody to cover one inning. They can’t find an ace. Joba is going to be an ace.”
Um…kind of early to project that he’ll be an ace, isn’t it?
He hasn’t even started one major league game yet…
From yesterday’s game thread:
JoeT 28 in 09!!
May 28th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Give Mo the day off (plus the off-day tomorrow) and let Joba throw the 9th…. nice shot matsui!!
I agree that Joba should have been given a shot in the 9th and I really liked Torre AND like Girardi now. With Joba pitching Monday as the starter and Posada back catching no later than Thursday/Friday next week,,,,and this CAKE schedule coming up in June….we will be looking at the Division Lead in NO TIME !
Check out Scott Proctor’s game log from 07 with the Yankees. He was abused last year.
http://www.baseball-reference......7&t=p
“I agree that Torre would not have seen the dividends that are paying off with Giambi hitting the way he is.”
Torre stuck with both Abreu and Cano last year when they were horrible for nearly the entire first half of the season.
In 2006 when Giambi was coming back from all those strange illnesses Girardi also kept him in the line up for a long time.
Torre was incredibly “patient” with hitters.
In fact, that was something he was routinely criticized for – sticking with veterans for too long.
He didn’t force Giambi back into the line up last year because when he tried that with Sheffield before it turned out badly.
russ-
Kind of hard to say last years team was better than this year when it’s May 29th, gotta one of the dumbest comments I have read here. You are the new McLovin.
The Yankees should tell Igawa that he can go back to Japan once he repays all of the money they have spent on him so far.
I haven’t done the research, but it does seem to me that Girardi tends to spread the relief work around; maybe not even-steven, but with the glaring exception of Chris Britton, I don’t find I’m saying “what happened to so-and-so” quite so much as I did with Torre.
As far as the in-game management, with basically the same horses, many of whom are veterans who’ve been winning division titles, I’d say that there’s not much different that a manager, any manager would have to do. As far as bringing more “small ball” to the table, Girardi has not had the luxury of fielding his A-team performing at A-level or even B-level for most of this season.
I would like to see how he does (a) as the team starts to put it together, health- and performance-wise; and (b) as they add new players either this season or over the next couple.
I don’t imagine any manager was going to be able to come into the Yankee clubhouse and handle this team much differently, except perhaps for the sake of being different.
But Girardi, like his team, is a work in progress, and I do like his bullpen management so far. I also liked the other night when Matsui was dripping at the plate and he tried to get the game halted at that point. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Torre do something like that; and certainly he didn’t do it when the midges attacked.
““Mariano also hasn’t pitched that much this year. He’s not been overused at all.â€
But that was because you had Joba in the pen…just watch how overused he’ll be come August and September…”
Arghhghsghshg, why must you persist in being wrong about everything that relates to Joba!!!! I don’t care that MoBoy is always wrong, or randyhater, but you’re a good kid, you should be right instead of wrong!
Your statement assumes that, had Joba not been in the bullpen in April and May, then Girardi would have used Mo in the 8th inning more than he did in the small number of times that Joba pitched. Is that really the case? Probably not.
Here’s where you’re partially right: in some of those situations, the non-Joba reliever might have gotten into trouble that Joba didn’t get into, and in those situations it might be that Mo would have come in to get 4 or 5 out saves rather than 3 out saves. How many times would that have been applicable so far this year?
A year ago you didn’t know Joba from John the Baptist (neither did I) but a lot of people did and they were REALLY excited about this young stud starter. They still are!
If just anyone could pitch the 8th, then why did the Red Sox make the move to acquire a Gagne last year?
And it’s not just the 8th inning…a good eigth inning guy gives you leverage over the 7th and 9th…
It’s clearly not just anyone who can do it…
Torre always had a quick hook with young players and way too long of a hook with veterans. A guy like rasner he would pull after 5 good innings because he either figured thats the most he was going to get from them or wanted to have them leave on a positive. Meanwhile guys like Mussina would routinely be allowed to stay in games when they clearly had no stuff left in the tank that day.
As for the good relievers/bad relievers, atleast Girardi seems to balance it. Torre would “ride the hot hand” until it burned out completely. Thats how proctor got to over 100ip in 2006, he used him constantly even when the situation didnt call for it. As for Girardi he seems to have several guys and spreads the love fairly well. And there doesnt seem to be any outcast sitting in the bullpen that goes 10days without pitching. Britton is usually up and back down before he gets a chance, if he stayed up more than 5 days at a time then he would get used.
Buddy, all you have to do is look at their pitching. 40% of their season starters don’t even have a win. Throw in Moose who will be under .500 by end of season, Hawkins, Ohlendorf, Veras, Britton, this team can’t compete on a playoff level. They can’t beat on a regular basis O’s, Tampa, KC, Cleveland, Detroit this year. The only team they have had success against is Seattle, big deal.
I love the “Torre didn’t use young pitchers” theory.
Right. Joba, Hughes and Kennedy must not have pitched last season. And he took Ohlendorf for the postseason roster.
Bologma: They had already used Ohlendorf, Ramirez and Farnsworth on Tuesday and Veras has pitched 1.1 innings the night before and wasn’t available. Who else was he supposed to use? Of course Mo pitched. There was literally nobody else except Hawkins (who also had pitched the night before). That wasn’t some kind of out of the box thinking, it was all he could do.
Then afterward he said, “I didn’t want to do that. But we were out of options. I would have rather had Mo to close.”
My best to all my friends there.
“What JR said. If they won Tuesday, Joba pitches the 9th. But, needing a win, you go to Mariano. Its the right move, IMO. Save situation, its Mariano’s game.
Mariano also hasn’t pitched that much this year. He’s not been overused at all.
I think he manages the bullpen differently than Torre in one regard. He doesn’t lean on just one pitcher.
He’s not burning guys out. That’s a big distinction”
I agree completely with everything SJ44 said here. Having seemingly started to turn things around with a nice winning streak and then dropped two in a room including the O’s crushing come from behind win in Tuesday’s game, I think yesterday felt like an important game to get the team back on track. If they’d won Tuesday or even had one more run cushion, maybe you leave Joba in there. But Joba’s control was off last night so what do you do if he walks the lead-off batter in the 9th? I think Mariano had already been warming prior to the extra run so he might as well just come in to start the inning.
As far as Girardi’s bullpen management in general, it does feel like he’s using everyone more and not relying as much on a few guys as Torre tended to do. In fairness, the team hasn’t had many long winning streaks though so it’s hard to really judge whether he’d overwork Farnsworth and Mariano if the Yankees were up by a few runs for many games in a row. He really hasn’t had much of an opportunity to do so.
My only real complaint is the way Ohlendorff has been used. But that’s more a function of not having another guy to serve as long man on the roster. Someone has to do it. I wish we had a healthy and effective Hughes in the starting rotation and Rasner as long man but absent that I don’t have a better answer.
“How many times would that have been applicable so far this year?”
Better question:
How many times will that be applicable for the rest of the year?
We’ll see…
The Sox also acquired Gagne because they knew the Yankees wanted him and didn’t want him to head their way.
so you think Baseball Prospectus would advocate more hit-and-runs and stealing?
and by not doing so makes Girardi “conservative”?
wow.
“It’s clearly not just anyone who can do it…”
Last year Heath Bell was by far the best set up man in all of baseball and one of the top 5 relievers in all of baseball.
Heath Bell – the guy Omar Minaya thought so little of he just gave him away off the scrap heap to the padres.
Can “anyone” do it? No of course not.
But it’s not that rare an occurrence where an unknown like a heath bell becomes a very good reliever mid-career.
That almost never happens with a starting pitcher because it takes much more skill to succeed as a starter.
Simply, put the supply of pitchers who can pitch well as relievers is much larger than the supply of pitchers who can pitch well in the starting rotation.
That’s why you have to allocate your pitching resources carefully – and if you have a potential front line starter you put him in the rotation 100% of the time.
“There were a couple of instances when he the game was tied on the road in the 9nth and he didn’t use Mo. Very conventional move.”
and then on Tuesday, he did exactly that.
so you could argue that he is learning.
and it didn’t take blowing a World Series to learn it.
This never stopped Torre from ignoring Rivera, which is the point you’re missing.
Steph,
Then they clearly thought he could be an important piece in the puzzle…
Which kind of negates the argument that just anyone can do it…
Dynasty, you’re the one who’s making the outlandish claims, not me! You said that Mo hasn’t pitched so much this season because Joba has been in the pen, so I asked you whether that thoery has really been applicable many times this year. “The better question is… ” my foot!
I think Mo not having pitched so many times this year has more to do with the team being under .500 than with the luxury of having a potential ace starter working as your setup man.
“and then on Tuesday, he did exactly that.
so you could argue that he is learning. ”
I agree. That’s why I also wrote that his approach was evolving and made note of his use of Mo in a tied game recently”
“There’s nothing wrong with this per se and I do think his management of the bullpen is evolving. For example, he brought mo in with the game tied in the 9nth twice recently.”
Furthermore, NOT A SINGLE SERIOUS PERSON has said that “anyone” can pitch relief, especially that all-important 8th inning. No one has argued it. So to use that straw man to argue the counter-point is… well, it’s not good.
“so you think Baseball Prospectus would advocate more hit-and-runs and stealing?”
hmmm-
yeah, i caught that contradiction too. peter might be friends with rob neyer, but i don’t think he quite gets that sabermetric thing yet. of course, neyer by his own admission isn’t one of the really smart ones.
… but i give peter credit for being thought provoking even if he had it a little mixed up.
“I agree. That’s why I also wrote that his approach was evolving and made note of his use of Mo in a tied game recently—
oh, i know. i am usually in agreement with you, CB. i wasn’t clear at all there.
“when you watch the games, is there that much of a difference than last season?”
Of course it isn’t because the core lineup is EXACTLY THE SAME!!! Damon-Jeter-Abreu-ARod-Matsui-Giambi-Cano-Melky-Posada. Doug Alphabet Soup was a defensive loss, but not an offensive one. Clemens is gone, but we’re still in with Wang, Pettite, Mussina. We used Hughes, Kennedy, Rasner & Karstens from the minors last year. The bullpen is ridiculously the same (Farnsy, Ramirez, Mo, Britton, Bruney)So again, we are the same team. The only MAJOR change was the managing and coaching staff.
Now my issue with the lack of change on a player personnel level is that they may not get over the 1st round playoff hump because the aforementioned lineup couldn’t get it done last year and have showed no signs of improvement this year.
I am willing to bet that Joe Torre had no say in guys like Kennedy making starts. Cashman brings them up, says they are starting.
Joe Torre didn’t even know who Joba Chamberlain was before he got called up for crying out loud!
“I love the “Torre didn’t use young pitchers†theory.
Right. Joba, Hughes and Kennedy must not have pitched last season. And he took Ohlendorf for the postseason roster.”
2006 bullpen-
Rivera, Proctor, Farnsworth, Villone, Myers
2005 bullpen-
Rivera, Gordon, Sturtze, Felix Rodriguez, Proctor
2004 bullpen-
Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Sturtze, Prinz
How many of those guys developed under Torre? 2007 was such a revelation because they started doing things Cashman’s way. This season we’re going to get a chance to see young pitchers prove themselves, and that hasn’t happened in a long time.
I think we don’t see a lot of running because nobody can run… with the alarming number of leg injuries he has to be conservative…. as with the bullpen.. I do think that he has used the bullpen arms much more efficiently than Torre…. He uses everybody regardless of the situation… He’s not afraid to send to the mound people like Veras, Ramirez, (Hawkins) to prove themselves…. unlike Torre who keeps on sending out Mo to the mound in the first sign of trouble….
Good stuff as usual. My boy– he’s older than me but still– at The Yankees Republic made the same argument yesterday.
http://theyankeesrepublic.blog.....folly.html
I totally agree. Using Mo last night was unnecessary.
Do I really need to explain everything? Really?
The Baseball Prospectus reference was in regards to Girardi appearing to be less old school than Torre. When in fact, he really isn’t.
It has nothing to do with stealing bases. I’m talking in general in terms of thinking outside the box.
Try and keep up.
Pete, sorry but I must disagree with you for once…or a few times.
Joe G, is a “guy on the hot seat” he is replacing the great Joe T. He is not as “New York” as Joe T., with the reporters (some of whom wish he would fail), most of whom liked Joe T. very much. He has to be given some time to make his adjustments and his own mark on this team. By the end of the year, we will see a big difference in how he goes about his job. He already made up to the media, now let him learn to be Joe G. not Joe T. One must remember he was the bench coach for Joe at one time so he does do somethings just as Joe T. would have. I hope I have some justification in my assement of Joe G. come years end. 27/08?
Late to the party as usual and I don’t know if anyone else brought this up (sorry not to scroll through all the comments)–
I was surprised that Joba didn’t stay in the game, but I wonder if some of it had to do with the fact that they had lost the last two games and perhaps Joe felt that they HAD to win this one before all the good feelings of the five game streak were destroyed. He may have been thinking Joba should be able to get this done, we would like to see if he could get it done, but we absolutely need it done and Mo is the safest bet at that point. In other words, I’m wondering if the choice would have been different if they had won both or even one of the previous two games in the series.
The yanks have looked ugly lately and using the best closer ever in you guessed it, a close situation is a questionable move? Now I have heard everything.
Joba is great, but he remains largely unproven and without the test of time. He certainly has little to no experience closing out games. There are many moves one can question; putting MO in ANY conceivable situation aint one of em. It is one of the most automatic moves a manager could make, and I’m glad of the knee jerk response you got from Girardi. My grandmother would make that move, and I suppose you would accuse her of managing like Torre.
Joe G inherited much the same team Joe T left. The ever changing bench + a possibly better Bp and maybe a lesser starting rotation being the differences. Essentially the starting everyday players are the same +or- injury problems.
I would find it illogical to find any gaping difference in managing. Of course there seems to be some there would virtually have to be.
Personally I don’t care much for the ever changing lineup just to get someone playing time. When there are reasons fine. Oh well I’m sure it boild down, to jsut trying to give yourself the best op to win, wonder how much of that is tied to the gut? It does hurt the team aspect and familiarity that goes with being a team when sometimes a third of yesterdays team is changed out. I dunno I won’t make final decisions until they give me an incentive laden contract to do so.
“That wasn’t some kind of out of the box thinking, it was all he could do.”
I’m still waiting for you to successfully support this statement.
Would have to respectfully disagree on the main premise on this post- the bullpen management is similar in that he uses his best/better pitchers in the tighter games and his not so great ones in the blowouts or when the other guys have been spent. That is nothing spectacular, that’s just common sense.
Where the bullpen management has differed is spreading the load around more evenly- everyone in the pen regularly gets work as opposed to the Torre rules of “I don’t like you, you sit.” Examples abound last year of 2 or 3 guys not getting anytime in games (Edwar, Britton, Bruney, et al) for a week or longer. I think Edwar had something like 9 or 10 games between appearances last year, then he had a blowout and was immediately shipped back to AAA.
If you were expecting Joe G. to pull out some Yoda-Jedi crap and pitch Hawkins in a game where the Yankees have a 4-3 lead in the 9th with the bases loaded (because some obscure stat says at that particular day of the week, with the humidity 85% or greater, the wind from the south, and against a particular hitter Hawkins created double plays 90% of the time) instead of Mo, then perhaps you were disappointed.
If, however, your expectations were that Joba would not be pitched every second day ala’ Scott Proctor or that there wouldn’t be two pitchers on the team with over 75 appearances over the course of the year, then Joe G has managed the pen differently.
As for the roster, we are missing at least one or two of Joe Torre’s favorite kind of player- the “gritty” white AAAA player who is a “defensive” specialist or just has a warm place in Joe T’s heart- see Josh Phelps, Andy Phillips, Doug Minky, Craig Wilson, Nick Green, Bobby Crosby, David Delluci, John Vander Wal, et al.
“But why not leave Joba Chamberlain in to pitch the ninth inning last night?”
Because Mo Rivera is the best 9th inning option in the History of MLB and Thursday was an off day!
Bologma:
Who else other than Mo could he have used on Tuesday?
Veras was unavailable. It was either Mo or Hawkins. There was literally nobody else. Joba had thrown a side the day before.
You have to leave Hawkins in case the game goes 17 innings or whatever. Girardi wasn’t breaking ranks there. He had no other choice.
Rusty, that was a terrific post. I was going to elucidate my thoughts more extensively but you have saved me the trouble. I agree with you 100% and think Abraham got this one wrong.
I remember being upset with Torre on a daily basis last year. On face value it appears that the two managers are doing the same thing. There are subtle nuances going on here that make all the difference in the world.
Farnsworthless is arguably pitching worse than he did last year, a complete and utter failure, yet somehow Girardi seems to not letting affect games as extensively.
Girardi has also squeezed out some impressive starts from Mussina who is a year older and slightly less velocity than even last year. Taking him out of games a little earlier seems to have made the difference. Granted he has had his fair share of bombs, but he has had more quality starts.
Torre would have used Hawkins in the 9th instead of Mo.
“His bullpen management is fairly identical as well.”
This is false.
Torre’s biggest flaw as a manager, IMO, was his use of the bullpen. Torre would take the one or two guys outside of Mo who were halfway decent and trot them out there day after day, and overwork the living daylights out of them. It didn’t matter if it was a close game or blowout, chances are, these one or two guys were coming in to pitch. This was the case with Ron Villone in ’06 (after Torre figured out he was good that year) and Proctor in ’06 and ’07 before he was traded to LA.
Girardi’s bullpen management is much better, IMO. He seems to keep the workload fairly even amongst the guys. You will rarely see the same pitcher out there on consecutive days. His only flaw as a bullpen manager is how he’s used Ohlendorf as a long reliever despite Ross being groomed to be a one-inning pitcher for a little under a year, both last season and in spring training this year. Of course, I blame Cashman and co. on that more than anything, for failing to give Joe a true long reliever to start the season.
Girardi isn’t perfect. Off the top of my head, I would have walked Manny and Crede, and I think his leash with Wang was much too long in his last start vs. the M’s. But I don’t think there’s any question that the bullpen is in much better hands this year.
Bologma:
So I prove my point and that’s what you come back with, that Torre would have done it differently? This is based on what, the Magic 8 Ball? Never mind that Girardi himself said he wished it hadn’t come to that.
Or that Torre used Rivera in a tied game on the road in Oakland last April. Or plenty of other times over the years.
My only point is that Girardi isn’t that much different than Torre, which is fine. The Yankees were pretty damn good under Torre and they will probably be under Girardi.
Girardi has the same patterns. He uses certain guys when they can win, other guys when they’re losing. Mo has been used in conventional situations all but once. Same is true of Farnsworth, Joba, etc.
You think he trusts Veras, Britton or Ohlendorf? There is no proof of that. One time this season that I can recall has Ohlendorf been used in a tight spot in a game they were winning. Once.
Peter,
I agree with you 1,000 percent. If Joba was only going to be used to get 4 outs… Why not just pitch him at some point on Tuesday?
I cannot believe ROSS O got to return for another innings AFTER giving up 3 HRs… I was shocked to watch Andy P. pitch to B-Roberts last night in the 7th… SURE, Roberts is better from the left side but he was 3-3 off Andy.
ANYWAY… I totally agree… What was the point last night? Joba has to go to the bullpen? Just let him pitch the 9th… It was a 2-run game… Bottom of the order.
THIS IS JOE LITE… and being JOE T was a given (as a GREAT off field MGR)… I wonder why Joe G is here?
I totally expected a different, more aggressive managing style. I was one who felt JOE T should go…. that it was time for a change. I’m very disappointed in Girardi.
Thank God we ran a hit-&-run last night, for once… It prevented a DP! Joe G rarely steals, moves runners, does much of anything!
TO SEND HAWKINS out for the 11th was suicide!
ANYWAY… I couldn’t agree more with your post. I think the success of the FLA Marlins this year takes some of the shine off Girardi…
It’s beginning to look like the Marlins made Girardi look good, not the other way around!
Pete…
Check out RAB, they have an article giving you congratulations on your being one of the first and best Blogs. Or something to that effect. Good work guy! 27/08?
Reminds me of that movie “Johnny Dangerously”- “You shouldn’t hang me from a hook. My brother hung me from a hook. Once.”
If you look at the number of appearances the bullpen guys have had (at least the ones not on the DL), they are spread out pretty evenly-
Then look at Torre- last year Proctor had 83 appearances, same the year before. Vizcaino had 77. In 2006, Villone and Farnsworth had over 70 to go with Proctor’s 83. In 2005, Tom Gordon had 80 and Sturtze had 64 and I think he was on the DL part of the year. In 2004 Gordon had 80 and Quantrill had 86. In 2002 Stanton and Karsay had 80 or so a piece, etc, etc…
Right now the guys in the pen that are used the most are on target for about 60 appearances.
That is the huge difference- to think that you can have relievers throwing every other game and 1) not have their arms shot at the end of the year or next year and 2) not have your pen rusty because the other guys don’t get regular work was Torre’s problem.
“Or that Torre used Rivera in a tied game on the road in Oakland last April. Or plenty of other times over the years.”
Congratulations, you found ONE game.
“So I prove my point and that’s what you come back with”
No, you didn’t. You made a half-assed attempt to support your opinion. There are plenty of people here doing a better job of supporting their opinion that Girardi is different and better than Torre, but judging by your typical snarky responses I’m guessing you’ll continue to stick your fingers as far into your ears as you can.
Bologma:
Go ahead, please provide all the information that reveals how Girardi is so much different than Torre. I’ve yet to see a shred of such info from anybody.
You’re also missing the point. As I’ve said and written, I think Girardi is doing just fine. I just don’t see where he’s all that different than Torre is.
Meanwhile, why would I stick my fingers in my ears while I’m reading? Wouldn’t I stick my fingers in my eyes?
It’s just a baseball conversation. No reason to get upset.
Peter,
You’re way off with this one. Yankees need to win games at this point in time. The Yankees, as a team, do not work around the performance and schedule of Joba. Mariano is the greatest reliever and closer ever. End of story.
I’m not sure what in my posts lead to you concluding that I’m upset, but you seem to have a knack for coming to inaccurate conclusions.
Fact: In a tie game in extra innings on the road the best way to increase your likelihood of winning is to use your best pitcher first. It doesn’t take having a copy of Baseball Prospectus to know this.
Fact: Joe Torre, like many managers, prefers to save his closer in the event of a lead. He did so famously contributing to a World Series loss by using the awful, awful Jeff Weaver, who hadn’t pitched in a month, instead of Mariano Rivera, the best relief pitcher in history. Rob Neyer calls it “One of the 50 worst managerial decisions of all time.” Did he learn from this mistake? No, with rare exceptions he has continued to manage in the exact same way. Do I need a “Magic 8 Ball” to assume he’d have done otherwise?
I, for one, found it funny that you chose to write a post about them being similar a day removed from Girardi making a fundamentally different decision than Torre would have. I also found it funny that you’d use Edwar Ramirez as a person they “can’t decide on” when Torre was so quick to write him off. And I think Hmmm summed up the whole baseball prospectus no hit-and-runs/stealing comment perfectly:
“so you think Baseball Prospectus would advocate more hit-and-runs and stealing?
and by not doing so makes Girardi “conservative�
wow.”
You did an awful job of making your case. They both use their better relievers in high leverage situations… It’s like they share a brain!
I get in this word late, as I’m on the other side of the globe, and won’t read many of the posts leading up, but the biggest difference, which is important, is that Joe T would run his hot relievers out there three times in a row, or 3 out of 4, 4 out of 5 days. He would run their arms into the ground. Joe G doesn’t do this. With the exception of Ollie early, he has kept a good balance.
Bruney was put in important situations early, as was Veras and Edwar more recently.
Joe G is doing a good job overall managing the pen.
Pete, when you’re in a hole this deep, really the best thing to do is stop digging.
It’s OK to admit you were wrong. In this case, really really wrong. Your Baseball Prospectus line was priceless. LOL.
If Torre hadn’t have given Bruney so much bench time would he have showed up in camp in shape and ready to play this season?
Jeff Karstens will be an impact player this year and will not return to the minors again this season after he is promoted.
Peter–
I just love what you are doing…and the way you are doing it.
I see lots of differences. Torre would not have juggled the lineup the way Girardi has. The only time Joe moved pieces was when someone was REALLY struggling. He also would have rather had his nose made bigger than ever move Arod out of the cleanup spot, no matter how terribly Arod was struggling in that spot.
Girardi is not afraid to experiment and seems to do so freely. Not out of the box? I’ve seen reporters cry about the fact that Joe G.’s lineups are unpredictable. Not being afraid to switch off your outfielders on a regular basis, not being afraid to sit one of your veterans, not being afraid to change your 1B daily if necessary, that’s Joe Girardi style. Torre stayed with his favs.
Girardi manages his pen in a very different style from Torre. Girardi uses his relievers, where Torre would overuse his relievers. So that would mean that Torre’s favorites were always pulled in first, where others were left to languish. That’s the opposite of Girardi. Girardi mixes and matches and uses all of his guys as much as he can.
Girardi conservative? As someone already pointed out, conservative is not bringing in your closer on the road in a tie game and conservative is not bringing in your closer for two innings.
I definitely do not see them at all alike. I see Torre as a more by the book old school manager and Girardi as someone who is thinking all the time and isn’t afraid to try different things out. Of course then he gets berated by reporters but who gives a crap about their opinions anyway? Like they have the right answers and Girardi doesn’t know how to manage.
Hey I’ve got it. Maybe Girardi should start telling reporters how to write! After all, he’s got the expertise, no?
Pete,
Thanks for the great coverage on my one-stop for non-statistical Yankee news.
I think the verdict is still out on Joe Girardi . . . at least through this season. Any team that lost their starting catcher for the first two months would be happy to be playing .500 ball 6 games out. Besides Cano and the young guns, everybody else looks to be in better shape than last season, Giambi, Damon et al.
Girardi has so far enabled the relievers to work on a bit better schedule and shown more fire/ire when dealing with bad calls. For instance, besides the hat-kicking incident, Girardi was out on the field in the downpour the other night, trying to get the game called to save Matsui’s at bat. Where was Torre when Joba was dealing with the midge attack in Cleveland? I, for one, was confused as to why Joe couldn’t use that bat to lift himself off the bench and try to get a delay so Joba could get back to business.
Girardi has also been more aggressive in a way, looking more to move runners over instead of passively waiting for the 3 run job that was the mark of the Sheffield era Yankees.
Girardi might well unveil more aggressive tactics on the bases as the weather warms. You might not agree but I hope you can agree we should wait until the end of his first season as Yankee manager to come to a verdict.
Yes, Girardi doesn’t hit-run as much as i thought. however, there are definitely interesting differences, such as:
Mariano pitching 2 innings in tie road games is a big difference
Farnsworth’s used much more.
Manny had to duck.
Girardi kicking some good hat.
i wonder if Torre would have been more conservative with A-rod’s or Posada’s injury?
Uses lefty hitters vs. lefties more. Recently, Torre would’ve played Ensberg more.
Traber – would a lefty be in the bullpen w/Joe T.