Today in The Journal News
-
- June
- 2
The Yankees fell to the Twins but Bobby Abreu felt a sense of relief afterward.
Scott Patterson finally got his chance to pitch in the majors.This notebook also has updates on Morgan Ensberg, Dan Giese and Derek Jeter.
The Yankees finish their four-game series with the Twins tonight. Crafty lefty Andy Pettitte against crafty righty Livan Hernandez.
This entry was posted
on Monday, June 2nd, 2008 at 3:11 am by Peter Abraham.
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I’m hoping Patterson doesn’t get sent back down already, I would love to see him get another shot.
I didn’t get a chance to see yesterday’s game – maybe I’ll watch the WB Encore this morning. Does anyone think that after Blackwell was hit by Abreu’s line drive that the entire offense was affected, or were they really just flat yesterday? Rasner was due for a less-than-stellar start. I hope Andy’s “on” tonight.
It’s too bad Ensberg couldn’t get it going. I hate it when I end up liking a guy’s personality (or what of it we ever are exposed to), and he ends up not working out. I wish him better luck elsewhere. The Yankees are in need of a bench guy who is actually good off the bench.
I guess it will be a toss-up as to whether it’s Patterson or Britton who gets sent back to SWB. Sounds like Britton was effective yesterday, while Patterson didn’t have a great outing. So, do they send back the guy with the frequent flyer miles, and give Patterson a chance to show what he can do without the butterflies in his stomach? Or do they reward Britton for his good outing with another day or two?
Perhaps Jeter’s ready to start on a roll. Speaking of Jeter, I didn’t read the blog at all yesterday, so I don’t know if it was discussed, but the Star Ledger yesterday (Dan Graziano) had a piece on Jeter’s improved defense this season and how the Yankee management actually approached Mr. Jeter (in the off season) about making some adjustments and how Jeter was receptive and did so. It was very interesting reading, to say the least, and I have to say it gives many of the posters here some credibility for their comments negatively rating Jeter’s defense. It was also pretty funny that Graziano started the story thus: “Touchy topic alert!” Anyone else read it?
Pete – Thanks for the review of Iron Man. I really want to see that one. This weekend my daughter and I saw SATC. It was better than I expected (which is not saying too much), so we enjoyed it. Hubby and other daughter saw Indiana Jones. Liked it but wasn’t raving about it. Says it set up future episodes by introducing a new character.
For those of you out there who are Broadway afficionados, we took in Gypsy yesterday. First, it was a glorious day in NYC. But Gypsy took my breath away. If you can see it with Patti Lupone and Laura Benanti, do so! All the leads have been Tony-nominated and Lupone I think puts the definitive mark on Mama Rose. Laura Benanti, however, has one particular short scene that I think should bring her the Tony award. And there’s nothing like a full live orchestra for that score!
Doreen
To me the offense, with the exception of Jeter who hit a HR and had good plate discipline & got 2 walks, they looked flat all day. Arod was swinging for the fences trying to do too much with each pitch, Cano swinging away at 1st pitch again. Both pitchers seemed to be getting squeezed by the ump which I think played a part in their 1st 3 runs, and it may just be the Yankee fan in me but he seemed to expand the zone for the Twins in crucial situations, but not for Rasner.
Yes, I read the article on Jeter too, and I think his defense has improved, maybe it is the positioning as well as his different workout routine in the offseason. I thought it was funny how he had to point out that Jeter was receptive and warn about the touchy nature of the article.
YanksAngel –
You think of Jeter as a “team guy,” so it does wrinkle the forehead a bit when you learn that he was perhaps a bit stubborn in his approach to defense.
What I notice more than anything is that I don’t hear Michael Kay saying “past a diving Jeter” as much as he did last season!
Thanks for your take on the offense yesterday. It’s so hard to be objection regarding the strike zone. Of course it always seems to me that the Yankees pitchers never get the close calls, while the other team always gets them. I’m sure it’s not “never” and “always,” because that would be ridiculous, but then I’d have to admit that I’m a biased fan!
The offense was flat, but, trying to hit the ball hard isn’t the same as trying to hit home runs. Jeter’s range issues are less of a concern than his throwing is. He needs to ditch that side armed flip of his. He has way too many off target throws.
Doreen,
About that article on Jeter’s defense, I still believe that his reluctance to want to sneak to the left on particular hitters last year may have had something to do with Arod’s defensive struggles in 06. To me, last year he seemed like he thought he had to get more balls that if he were poistioned closer to 2nd base Arod would have been responsible for. Arod’s defense is certainly better last year and now than in 06, so maybe Jeter feels more comfortable with repositioning himself for certain hitters because he has more confidence in Arod’s ability at 3rd. Whatever the reason, I certainly see results.
I’m a huge Jeter fan, but even I could see last year he was terrible defensivley on plays he used to have no trouble with. Sure the bad knee didn’t help, but he just didn’t seem to have his usual 1st step all year. I see that back this year. He’s got 5 errors this year, but if I remember correctly, two were from making throws to 1st that if we had a better 1st baseman the ball would have been caught. Several times this year he’s easily gotten to balls he had trouble with last year which is a great sign. A lot of people may not have noticed that because he’s made many of those plays look easy when last year if an out was made on a similar play it would have looked like a great play because he didn’t get to it very well.
If yesterday is any sign, hopefully his offense is back, and with Posada coming back I’m liking our chances.
GB7 –
I agree. Jeter seems a little bit more dependent on the 1B’s fielding ability. (Could it have to do with ability to grip the ball – injury – or just bad habits?)
Have to agree with Greenberet7 that his throwing is the thing that worries me most. Maybe he’s trying too hard to make the perfect throw since we know we don’t have a Tino type glove any more at 1st.
Doreen, he’s always had a bit of an issue throwing, but, mostly it’s when he has a lot of time. If he has to range and not much time to throw, his throws to first or any base are generally straight and true. When he has a lot of time, the throws either sink or sail.
GB7 –
So, we need Jeter not to think, then?
Jeter has been a great player for a long time, but he’s never been and never will be a great shortstop, despite his patented jump throws from the hole.
When Matsui and Damon’s contracts run out after 2009 I expect to see the captain move to LF where his tremendous talent for tracking balls in the air will be more valuable. Another possibility could be Jeter to 1B and Gonzo to SS… dramatic defensive improvement at two positions would be a good thing for this defensively challenged squad.
All big shortstops end up changing positions in their thirties, and I hope Jeter does it before he becomes the albatross Ripken was.
Well, Doreen, either not to think or not to think about his dates.
Actually, he needs to junk that throw and just come over the top instead of sidearm.
GB7 –
I have a feeling that other people think about Derek’s dates more than Derek does!
You’re most correct, Doreen. If you read some of the other sites, these guys get more excited reading about Jeter’s dates than he does. They think that they’re the ones dating these women. They are so proud of themselves.
Doreen,
Great point…I would love to see Scott get a couple more chances instead of shipping him back down already. If they do though, he will be back again at some point.
“Speaking of Jeter, I didn’t read the blog at all yesterday, so I don’t know if it was discussed, but the Star Ledger yesterday (Dan Graziano) had a piece on Jeter’s improved defense this season”
Unfortunately, Jeter had nowhere to go but up, defesnively. He’s probably still among the lower half of the AL shortstops defensively, but he’s been better. Positioning is key, as covering ground to his left has long been a weakness.
Going back to yesterday’s game thread, Pete had this to say about Betemit:
“Remember when he (Betemit), Shelley Duncan and Morgan Ensberg were supposed to be these big factors off the bench? How has that worked out? Everybody, myself included, was wrong there.”
It’s good to see a writer come full-circle with their comments once in a while, instead of making wild predictions and never talking about them again (I’m talking to you, Steve Phillips!)
Good Job taking responsibility for your previous comments, Pete!
Keep up the amazing work.
Didn’t realize there was an article but I heard Graziano talking about this on ESPN this week. Hearing him say this was a behind the scenes topic that people were reluctant to approach Derek about it made me think that Torre’s departure made the team less reluctant and Derek more receptive to addressing it. Also made me wonder about the timing of this conversation- Before or after Alex was back?
If you ignore the little kid in the room that is just pitching a fit and spouting off nonsense, then his noise goes away and his words have no meaning. ( are you guys picking up, what I am putting down ? )
I think Patterson has the stuff to compete, but he was nervous this time out.
Lets hope he’s one of those guys who gets over his nerves quick, and pitches the way hes capeable of.
Also, how long do you guys think Shelley and Betemit will be around?
I think they have to give Jason Lane and/or Brett Gardner a chance pretty soon…
Looks like the uber troll has been busy…
Anyone see the naughty comments over at IIH IIF IIc.com re: Lohud posters? Its under the ‘Minor League Analysis’ entry.
Don’t want to post a link, don’t want to violate any TOS small print I’ve never read. Pretty rude stuff though, even for a troll like Russ/anti-SJ44/whatever other phony names he uses!
I think Shelley goes before Betemit because of the options he’s got. jmo.
This is a response to someone in one of the other threads making note of the fact that the Yankees are a ”.500 team.” I just want to say that if you can go 8-3 and manage to be a .500 team, you won’t be for long. That Yankees are not going to win every single game. Nobody does. But for a variety of reasons, they had worked themselves into a hole such that going 8-3 only brought them back to being a .500 team.
In years past, the AL East competition was relatively dismal, and since the majority of games are played against our rivals in the AL East, it was easier for the Yankees to make some kind of immediate impact when they began to win. I don’t need to point out the competition this year. So while moving up may be a longer and protracted fight, it doesn’t mean that it won’t happen.
Never has the saying “patience is a virtue” been more relevant to us than it is right now.
And now, I work.
GO YANKEES!
‘Can’t we all just get along’?
Day off from work today. Might go see a minor league game.
Keep it friendly, fellas and ladies!
Trisha, that was me saying the Yankees are currently a .500 team.
Newsflash: they are 28-28, which with my public school math education, leads me to believe they are .500. And if it wasn’t for their winning eight of their last 11, who knows where they would be. They had to go on a hot streak to GET to .500.
Lets agree to disagree and meet in here in a month, on the 4th of July. Hopefully they will still not be .500.
Again, some Yankees fans (the post-1996 crew) think its their birthright to make the post season every year. Wish you all were around for the 80’s.
Don Vito
Agree 100% at least so far everyone has ignored him, I’m sure someone will call him out. But if everyone ignores him, he’ll get bored and crawl back in his hole.
not a horribly pitched game last night when you consider its our #5 guy followed by a guy making his mlb debut. if you deduct melky’s throw to nowhere, 4 runs allowed was not bad. i think expectations for razner have gotten to the ridicluous stage and a dose of reality was overdue.
big congratulations to patterson for riding the bush league express on an 8 year journey to glory. what up with that crazy delivery?
wanted to point out that the news that patterson was coming up was broken here in the comments section of pete’s blog by thunderfangabe about 12 hours before i heard it anywhere else. she got a call from patterson’s g/f.
now THATS the power of the blogosphere!
Doreen-
Ya that would make the most sense. The Yankees have way more guys that can play the OF in the minors then they do guys that can play first base at this point… Hopefully that changes if Ben Broussard is solid in Scranton…
Not that Wilsons a great option at 1B, but at least he has a little playing time there.
bronxbomber77
What website?
I think a lot of folks in here placed too-high of expectations on this team that is clearly in transistion this year.
Can anyone in here HONESTLY tell me they thought for a fleeting second that both Hughes and Kennedy would be winless by June and BOTH on the DL?
There were idiots claiming they’d win upwards of 15 to 20 games this season for chrissake!
Realistic expectations would start serving a lot people well this year.
Jennifer…
Pete has the link over on the right
—————————————————————->
The It is high website. Started clicking through Pete’s lists a few months ago. Those guys at IIH are VERY funny.
Too bad one of their posters is classless. I’m guessing either the antiSJ troll, russ, or maybe even Mike Lupica!
this team as put together is one big yawn.
joba is the one variable who can change the dynamic.
... so he makes his first start without throwing more than 40 pitches in a game
and without completing no more than two full innings.
“Can anyone in here HONESTLY tell me they thought for a fleeting second that both Hughes and Kennedy would be winless by June and BOTH on the DL?
There were idiots claiming they’d win upwards of 15 to 20 games this season for chrissake!”
You say it yourself…Neither one of those expectations was realistic. If those two guys had been .500 pitchers to this point, which is really pretty realistic, the team would be in a much better spot.
As for yesterday…once again, the Yankees stunk against a guy they hadn’t seen before. It used to be that Cano, at least, would hit those guys well, but he’s not hitting ANYBODY well.
Well said Whozat!
Even if Phil was 5-4 with an ERA under 5, and similar stats from Kennedy, the team would be a little better in teh standings…possibly.
Here’s to a big second half!
There are some games you look at and not feel good about your chances of winning. Yesterday was one of them.
Day game after two long and late night games, short bullpen, and an older team. I wouldn’t put too much stock into the result of yesterday’s game. Its not surprising the Yankees looked dead yesterday.
Even Girardi, who always looks ashen after losses, didn’t look too bad yesterday. Kind of gives you an indication that he wasn’t broken up about this one.
The team is showing some signs of playing better. Are they flawed? Yes but, EVERY team is flawed this year. That’s why the races are so close and that’s why, barring any real bad injuries, they will be in the hunt all year.
So far this year, home field has been a pretty big advantage. The Rays and Red Sox are taking big advantage of their home field play.
The Yankees are home for most of July. That will be the time they will have to be in full flight and look to take advantage of the schedule.
It doesn’t mean they go to sleep until July. Just means they will have a shot at making a big run in July because of the schedule.
The roster? Can’t get rid of Betemit until you have somebody who can play all 4 infield positions to replace him, given the current roster configuration.
Lane? I’d go Lane for Duncan right now. They have nothing to lose. Shelley isn’t hitting and his defense is poor.
As far as the trolls, ignore them. There is nothing more gutless and comical than somebody talking junk on the internet.
Its a perfect forum for the mentally challenged. They can act out without retribution. Can you imagine if some of these folks said some of the things they say about somebody on the internet to their faces? Let’s just say, they wouldn’t be talking too much junk afterward.
That’s the “magic” of the internet. It turns gutless folks into Mike Tyson.
At some point, they will go over the line, get banned, and life goes on.
Some folks are pretty negative around here this morning…
I think it’s easy to let the memory of one or two games sway our emotions and feelings about this team in one direction, be it good or bad.
Yesterdays game, the Yankees looked flat and dull.
But over the last 10 or so, they’ve looked more alive for the most part. Theres signs of that spark that a good team needs.
I have to say, SJ, just over a month ago, you and I both agreed that if the Yankees could hover at the .500 mark entering June, and be 4-6 games back, that would be a victory.
You pat my back while I pat yours.
Your above statement was so true. With the NYY getting to the meat of their home schedule, with the weather getting warmer, I see this team getting hot. Will they go on a run like last year? Who knows? Will they make the playoffs this year? I hope so.
Time for another prediction: I say by end of July, they are 12 games over .500 (picked 12 b/c my kid struck out 12 in a game yesterday!) and in contention for the division, within a game or two of the AL East leader?
Anyone want to take action on this call?
Worst to first in 08, baby!
im also concerned that they’re rushing joba into the rotation. he’s never thrown more than 40 pitches in an mlb game and has barely thrown his secondary pitches this season. i would have liked to see them work him for 60 (game) pitches at least once, preferably twice, before starting him.
i am confident in his eventual success, but this is a rush job and may set him back a bit.
“i would have liked to see them work him for 60 (game) pitches at least once, preferably twice, before starting him.”
Most guys who start their first big league game have NEVER thrown a pitch in the bigs
SJ – You’re onto something re: home field advantage. This year, it’s not who you play, but where you play.
The Yankees, to this point, have played 30 away games, and 26 at home. Their away record is OK (14-16), but the home record is not (14-12). The Sox have played 33 away games (including two west coast trips)and 26 at home, and have dominated at home (21-5). Lousy on the road, though …
An interesting side bar is Tampa Bay, which has played 11 more games at home than on the road. The Rays, and the Cubs, are two teams that have played way more home games than any other team, and are cashing in (24-10 and 26-8, respectively). But will their early success hold up when they leave the friendly confines?
The White Sox, on the other hand, lead the division in spite of having played 12 more road games than home games. That gives more credibility to their current first place standing.
I’ve seen very little national analysis on this topic. The national media is agog over the Cubs and Rays, but their schedules have been skewed to this point. Like a 400 meter race, the “staggered start” will sort itself out in the backstretch.
I’m look at Joba’s appearance on Tuesday not so much as a “start” but as an “outing.” He is on a strict pitch count and will come out of the game at a pre-determined time. Someone else will be brought into the game – probably a couple of “someone elses.” It’s just easier for his work to be done at the top of the game rather than in the middle, given the pitch count they want from him right now. So in that sense, I don’t think they’re so much rushing Joba as they are rushing the rotation, if you understand what I’m saying.
I’m also not expecting a lot from Tuesday, but hoping that the Yankees will provide some offense and the game is won.
I never expected Hughes and/or Kennedy to win 15 games. I thought Hughes might reach 15, but realistically, I thought a 12-11, 12-12 season was more realistic. And to be truthful, I probably thought Kennedy would be about the same, though I thought Kennedy might end up being a little better. I thought the spotlight on him was a tad dimmer and he’d respond accordingly. Ah, well. They’re young, they’re talented and there’s time – really, there is.
I’m also more concerned about the Rays as a force than I am about the Red Sox. They sure have some pitching there!
Oh, and though I’m not concerned that the Blue Jays will do much overall, I do think that the Yankees will have a lot of trouble with them head to head, unless the Yankees pitch really well against them.
Brian –
That was a good point about the Rays playing a lot of their games at home so far. So, I’ll amend my post to say, that though the Rays have some really great pitching, I too am anxious to see how they translate on the road.
doreen, i like your view on joba’s start, unfortunatly, expectations are running rampant and the hype machine will go crazy today and tomorrow in anticipation of joba’s start.
my biggest problem is with his secondary pitches. he basically has barely thrown them in games and even if he gets through the order once this time with fb/slider, he will be expected to go through the lineup 2 or 3 times within his next 2-3 starts, but he doesnt have command of those pitches yet and may not get to use them much tomorrow and in his next start.
i hope im wrong, but i dont like the way they’re doing this.
Its a weird year so far.
I also think baseball is in a strange (but better) place.
The national media is completely asleep on the issue of stronger drug testing in the game.
Just as they were asleep when the game was under a PED siege.
Younger teams (Tampa, Arizona for example) now have their young players on their major league rosters who have been subject to stronger drug testing throughout their entire careers. The minor league drug testing program has been in place for years and, until this year, had much bigger teeth than the MLB program.
That means these guys have had to be clean (or cleaner, depending on your point of view) for a longer period of time.
I don’t discount that when it comes to looking at the season on a whole. A lot of guys who have lived on greenies to keep it going during the season have now had to make a drastic change. That’s not easy.
I’m not going to name names but, all have you to do is look at the numbers of some previously productive players around the game and ask yourself, “what’s up”?
Its kind of hard for me to believe a guy goes from hitting 25-35 HR’s a season, has 0-5 as of June 1, and its just attributed to “better pitching”.
Teams, namely GM’s, have been blindsided by this. I don’t think many folks in the game saw just how much stronger drug testing would affect the on field product. Goes to show you just how much PED use has influenced play the last 10 years. More than I ever thought it did.
It certainly has affected style of play. Less power, more contact and athleticism, far fewer guys throwing 97 out of the ‘pen 3-4 days in a row, etc.
The game is changing and its going to be interesting to see how teams adjust their rosters to these changes.
Its not like Joba has to throw 30 curveballs and changeups in an outing to get by.
If he was at 100 pitches for a start, he still would throw 75%-80% fastballs and sliders. Those are his bread and butter pitches.
Josh Beckett doesn’t throw too many of his secondary pitches on his outings, why should Joba?
I don’t think his secondary pitches are a problem at all. Tempering his emotions will be his biggest challenge early in this transition period.
He can’t be as jacked up as he is when he comes into games out of the ‘pen. That’s how his pitch count will rise.
He’s one of the few guys in the game talented enough to get by as a starter with two pitches. Mainly because he already possesses the best fastball and slider in the league.
His curveball is also a plus pitch. The problem is, most of the media have never seen him start. Instead of actually researching his starts, they make assertations that just aren’t true.
That controls the conversation points of his value as a starter and folks go off on tangents.
Do I expect him to go 12-1 with 1.35 ERA the rest of the year? No. But, I think he will be a lot better starter than people who are completely against him starting ever think he will be.
The kid is a once in a generation arm. If he stays healthy, he can’t help but be successful.
Doreen – Look out for Toronto – they have played 7 more games on the road to this point, and are still 3 games over .500. Their two young pitchers (Marcum and Mcgowan) have eye-popping stuff, and Halladay is Halladay. They are lurking in the weeds.
“I’m look at Joba’s appearance on Tuesday not so much as a “start†but as an “outing.†He is on a strict pitch count and will come out of the game at a pre-determined time.”
Good point. Getting him in at the beginning makes the most sense as it allows them a bit more control of the situation than saying “he’ll throw 55 pitches in relief” only to cut him off at the halfway mark because of a save situation (Sorry, throwing 27 extra pitches in the pen doesn’t mean spit to me. Simply not the same as in-game pitches). Sounds like Giese is coming up to do some long man work and with Joba tomorrow and another typical 5 inning effort from Mussina on Wednesday, we’ll need it.
i think the steroid testing has changed the game, thank goodness.
but i dont think the greenies ban makes any difference. there are so many over the counter diet pills, extra caffiene drinks and the like that have the equivalent pickup effect that are available to any player legally anytime. the only difference is that stimulants are no longer handed out like candy in the locker rooms. these guys can all get thier fix of uppers legally anytime they want them.
as for hgh, the jury’s still out, but it doesnt seem to be making up for the loss of steroids at all. it may help guys heal from injuries, if they are using it, but it doesnt seem to be increasing thier in-game performance.
all in all, the testing program, especially in the minors has brought the game back to the point where it was before steroids began to ravage the records books.
still there is a long way to go to prevent the next ped outbreak, b/c the chemists are out there and they designed the current tests, so they are now designing the next wave of ped’s
id like to see blood testing myself.
“Doreen – Look out for Toronto – they have played 7 more games on the road to this point, and are still 3 games over .500. Their two young pitchers (Marcum and Mcgowan) have eye-popping stuff, and Halladay is Halladay. They are lurking in the weeds.”
Also have a look at what Jesse Litsch has done this year and Burnett is coming around (33 2/3, 3.21 ERA and 39 K’s over his last 5 starts). They are a very dangerous team IF they begin to hit. Wells and Rios are killing them this year thru underperformance.
FYI- For anyone who was planning to go to the Bobby Murcer signing at book-ends it was postponed, he is ill.
I don’t know exactly what ill means, but hopefully it isn’t anything serious. Keep Bobby in your prayers.
Y’s Guy –
I hear what you’re saying about the hype. It really frustrates me. I know that Joba’s story sells papers and the controversy surrounding the Yankees’ decisions regarding Joba sells papers (and ad space on blogs!), but it really does seem out of control at times. Just gotta try to ignore the hype. Think of it as a major troll!!!
So, SJ44 – PEDs really affected stamina more than anything, would you say? And ability to bounce back more quickly?
And, do you think, over time, there will be fewer players playing into their 40s? And what of guys like Giambi? Does he even have a future past this year if the Yankees don’t sign him? Or, if he ends up with decent numbers, has enough time passed where he’s been “clean” (or so we hope) so that the numbers can be seen as true, and therefore he’d have value somewhere?
Also, there was an article on a young prospect, Pedro Alvarez, in the Sunday Times sports section. If the Yankees are always finishing high in the standings, what are their hopes of ever signing guys like that? Top end position players? Unless the Alvarez’s of the world start asking for so much money they can’t be afforded by the early drafting teams, what are the Yankees’ actual chances?
It seems like with pitchers, if you’re willing to take a risk on a guy who’s had some injury issues, you might get a gem with some patience and a good plan for the injury. However, it would seem to me that position players don’t have that same level of propensity for injury and there’s a lot less risk involved in signing them. I understand that a lot of young players don’t work out. But I’m talking about a guy like Alvarez who was hot at 18 but decided to go to college and is still hot, and probably just about ML ready.
To finish my thought—since there are fewer and fewer high quality players at their peak reaching free agency, how will the Yankees be able to improve themselves? It almost seems like a team needs to cycle into a down time (not winning titles) in order to fully replenish.
wells underperformance is killing the jays?
in case you missed it, wells had 5hrs, 24 rbi on may 9th when he broke his wrist and went on the d.l.
SJ44 –
I think that Joba won’t be as pumped starting the game, because the situation is not the same. (Perhaps the first one will be a little more amped, though, because it is first.)
Jennifer—
I hope Bobby’s okay. I would suspect even a cold at this point is a lot to handle for his body.
so the rock concert is tomorrow at the stadium, seriously Joba starting is going to be bigger hype than Dwight Gooden’s debut.
“To finish my thought — since there are fewer and fewer high quality players at their peak reaching free agency, how will the Yankees be able to improve themselves? It almost seems like a team needs to cycle into a down time (not winning titles) in order to fully replenish”
This is a good thing for the game, Doreen. Maybe not great for the Yankees and other high rent teams, but revenue sharing has worked insomuch as the low revenue teams are able to lock up their good young talent long term.
Yanks are making a little hay on the position players. Jackson is really starting to come around in AA (30 RBI in 26 games – including two 7 rbi games) and SJ has long talked about Montero down in Low A, who I think may one day be their answer at 1B.
The other thing the Yankees will do is ignore the commisioner’s office when it comes to paying draft picks (read: they are more than willing to go over slot). Not saying a guy like Alvarez will get down to them, but the chances of them getting someone who is viewed as a Top 10-15 player in the draft are enhanced by many teams refusing to over slot, while the Yankees will.
SJ44.
Thanks to WGN I had a chance to watch the Cubs yesterday. Sean Gallagher pitched for Chi. He seemed to have electric stuff at times. He struggled a few innings with command but he throws hard and can throw his secondary stuff for strikes. He is a 22 year old rookie. Was this kid highly touted in the minors? Curious if you knew about this kid before this year. I guess I am guilty of not noticing as it is west of the Hudson…
All. Have a good week.
-dennis
“If the Yankees are always finishing high in the standings, what are their hopes of ever signing guys like that? ”
Doreen,
This is a very astute point and a real challenge for the organization.
They have no chance of drafting Alvarez and its exactly for the reasons you said – position players don’t fall in the draft that much, primarily because teams don’t get scared off by injury related risk like they do with pitchers.
A lot of people point out that there’s a great imbalance in the system between pitchers and hitters. And there right. But there are reasons for that. The point you make is one of them.
Picking at the end of the draft the most talented player left is most likely going to be a pitcher who has some kind of risk associated with him. And the yankees, as they should, have been drafting the best talent available.
So how does this change? How do they get better positions players.
The international signing market is the most likely route. And they’ve done a very good job there. But the players you sign are 16 so it’s a long time before they get to the majors (see Tabata…)
They take a risk and draft a high school player (like Alvarez three years ago) and pay him a tremendous amount of money to get him out of his college commitment. This is how they got Austin Jackson and Carmen Angellini.
They let one of their type A veteran players leave via free agency and take the other teams pick. They could get as high as pick 16 this way (picks 1-15 are protected). This could happen with Abreu.
I think they will wind up drafting a pitcher again in round 1 this year.
Fredo –
So instead of spending money on free agents, the Yankees can use their money to “overpay” draft picks?
I guess this is what makes the Latin American players so attractive? And other international players at some point.
Doreen – Yeah you are right. I just hope he isn’t wearing himself down doing a book tour.
“in case you missed it, wells had 5hrs, 24 rbi on may 9th when he broke his wrist and went on the d.l.”
Didn’t miss it. He’d posted a sub .800 OPS to that point and still would disappear from games at time (ie 7 for 52 with 4 rbi, as the Jays were going 4-10 from mid April to the begining of May). He’s paid to be a star and he’s failed miserably at playing to that level.
“The Denver Post reports that the Yankees are interested in Brian Fuentes.
The newspaper notes that Fuentes is someone the Yankees “have liked for years” and New York could use a new setup man after moving Joba Chamberlain to the rotation.” – Roto
Separately, heard from somewhere that Colorado might take back Latroy Hawkins if the deal is right.
Fuentes would be a good p/u for the Yanks.
“Was this kid highly touted in the minors?”
I believe Gallagher was rated the Cubs 1st or 2nd best prospect by Baseball America.
CB –
You answered most of my questions, thanks.
Now, how do you protect those 16-year-old players like Tabata who have the talent but are way, way too young? I can’t imagine my 16-year-old being whisked away to a strange (well, different) country, and basically going to work full-time. I suppose you can develop the talent, but isn’t there another challenge in providing a quality of life for these young players? Making the transition a little easier?
I do understand that the quality of life that these young boys have to begin with are not high with regard to money and opportunity outside of baseball. I understand that for many of these young boys, a career in baseball is a godsend to their entire families, if not their entire communities. But they will not be with their natural support system. What are ML teams doing on this front? It’s easy to “import” a player. But how do you nurture that player? It seems that the better systems you have in place, you will be able to not only harvest a talent, but take care of a person.
wells hasnt lived up to his contract but the guy was off to a great start, i watched several of thier games and everyone was remarking how well he was playing.
saying that his underperformance (he still the team in rbi for almost 3 weeks after going on the d.l.) is ridiculous.
“Separately, heard from somewhere that Colorado might take back Latroy Hawkins if the deal is right.
Fuentes would be a good p/u for the Yanks.”
like I said for the Sabathia rumors I guess Cash will have a ski mask and Hank might be at the corner w/ the sliding door of the black van that’s moving.
Don’t get caught up in the Fuentes deal they are sure to ask for Philip Hughes first.
“Separately, heard from somewhere that Colorado might take back Latroy Hawkins if the deal is right.
Fuentes would be a good p/u for the Yanks.”
It would be a very good pickup. However, if Hawkins is enough to get him, I have to assume the Yanks front office has pictures of someone in the Colorado front office with a female midget clown and a shetland pony.
I’d guess the Yanks would have to tap into their minor league pitching reserve to land Fuentes. I’d also imagine there will be competitive bidding for his services.
The majority of players I know in the game say banning greenies has had a far bigger impact than steroid testing.
Simply put, most veteran players lived on greenies to get them through a season.
The over the counter stuff? Not as good a source for energy according to the players.
It gets back to the “old way” of doing things. Being in better shape, having a good bench, using it intelligently, etc.
Doreen,
As CB said, the international market, and being able to pay over slot for draft picks, are the ways to go for the Yankees.
Not every first round pick is a can’t miss guy. Often, as was the case with Austin Jackson and Mark Melancon (guys who were drafted in later rounds), the ability to pay (way) over slot plays a big role in getting top end talent with a bad draft position.
Its why Selig’s goal of slotting is so dumb. It penalizes small market teams. It doesn’t penalize big market teams because no matter how much they spend in these markets, it doesn’t count against any luxury tax and revenue sharing fees.
The international market which, if the rumors are true, the Yankees are prepared to pay big money in this year, is another avenue to obtain top end talent.
Its a huge crapshoot. In essence, you are betting that a 16-17 year old kid can project out to be a stud. However, for a team with money, its the way to go in finding talent.
Thanks Fredo.
The kid has great stuff.
-dennis
Recently the Yankees philosophy in the draft changed and they began grabbing two or three guys each year who dropped in the selection process because of “signability” issues. That will remain a viable and effective strategy until/unless MLB and the players agree to a signing bonus scale.
I hope they don’t take a pitcher # 1 this year… the system has at least ten times as many legit pitching prospects as they do position players. Cross your fingers and hope slugging first baseman Eric Hosmer “slides” to the Yanks… if they do go pitching please, God make it a LEFTY!
fuentes would be a great p/u, but i dont think they’ll move him till the trade deadline for a couple of reasons.
first, his value will only increase as the season goes on and he continues to get saves
second, manny corpas, who they signed to a mulit year deal, is HORRIBLE right now, 6.90 era and gave up 3 runs w/o recording an out the other day. they need him to come around to have any chance to win games. also if he continues like this, they may well have to revise thier plan to depend on him as thier closer for the next few years.
id love to see him in pinstripes, but right now, the yanks would have to blow thier socks off with an offer.
“Now, how do you protect those 16-year-old players like Tabata who have the talent but are way, way too young? ”
It’s a real challenge and one of the real drawbacks to depending on international signings.
In general the yankees start most of their international guys on their teams/academies in the Dominican republic (they have 2 teams there). That works well as most of the players are from the dominican and are close to home.
But that only lasts a year or two if the prospect shows anything. And if it’s a top flight talent (montero, tabata) they come to the U.S. immediately – training in extended spring training and the gulf coast league.
It’s very difficult. That’s partly why many of us here are so impressed with Jesus Montero. He’s he second youngest player in low A at age 18, from Venezuela, and is thriving down there.
But I’m sure a lot of very talented guys never make it because of the social, cultural and maturity stressors.
An interesting story in this regards is Al Aceves – the minor league pitcher the yanks signed out of the Mexican League who has dominated A and AA and moved very quickly through the system out of nowhere.
When Aceves was a teen ager he was sent to one of those Dominican baseball academies from Mexico and hated it. He just couldn’t take being away from home at that age and couldn’t cope with being in a foreign country. After 1 season he just left and went back to Mexico (think it was 1 season).
Aceves knew that his best chance to make the majors was to stay in the Dominican. Despite that he left. And he at least could speak Spanish (though Mexican and Dominican spanish are very different).
He decided that he’d rather play in the mexican league and diminish his shot at pro ball than stay in the Domincan where he had a much better chance of making it to the U.S.
Several points:
1) We all said that we needed to tread water till Arod and Posada are back, get throught the tough part of the schedule. Arod back. Posada back in a few days. Boston only a couple up in the loss column. Check
2) June is a very easy schedule and as SJ pointed out July is a home heavy schedule. It is time to make a move. The altter part of the schedule has some killer road trips to the West Coast.
3) Believe it or not there are not many teams ahead of the Yankees in the loss column. Outside the Rays (who will be good all year but will ultimately fall a bit) no team is out of range.
A question – has there ever been talk about allowing teams to trade for draft picks. It would seem like a way for a bad team to trade away a top pick to get talent and for a team like the Yankees who never get allotted a top pick to trade for draft picks?
Internationally, where does the money go? Is it to individual players on an individual basis? Is it in a “baseball academy” situation where you scout a lot of players, select them for the academy and develop them there? In said “academies,” what besides baseball itself is emphasized? Is there any teaching of English? Is there anything taught that will help alleviate the culture “shock?”
Or do they spend the money to bring players to American soil and develop them here? Or a combination?
I suppose I’m overly concerned with the social development of these players, but I think if you’re going to go out of the US to find players that are going to help you build your business, then it should be more than an “indentured servant” type of arrangement.
Also, if they’re not going to have to pay as much money for a Latin (or other international) player as they would for an American-born, raised and education player—I don’t know how to finish this statement. I just don’t want to see exploitation. (Which I do realize is already out there in other non-baseball businesses, and which I don’t like either.)
CB –
You are basically answering my questions before I even post them!!!
Jason –
The only point I’d argue with you is that June is an easy part of the schedule for the Yankees. I don’t think “easy” is in the vocabulary this season. So far nothing has gone as hoped. A healthy dose of skepticism, a spoonful of crossed fingers, and some good, solid baseball on the part of the Yankees, is going to be needed.
No way on earth Hawkins gets us Fuentes… but Hawkins and Horne would. I know no one wants to give up anything good in a trade, but if you offer garbage all you get back is garbage.
It’s kinda like the talk about energy independence… everyone loves the idea, but no one wants to raise gas taxes, impose fees on low mileage vehicles, drill offshore, drill in Anwar, expand coal, build new nuclear plants and so on.
If the Yankees are going to address their needs with quality additions they have to give up players they’d rather not trade. Assuming Hughes is off limits, you have to be willing to move one or more guys from the list of Kennedy, Hughes, Marquez, Veras, Ohlendorf, Ramirez, Cox, Melancon and Horne… otherwise discussing trade possibilities is a waste of time.
That’s how you end up with Hawkins in the bullpen and Ensberg on the bench.
“I hope they don’t take a pitcher # 1 this year… the system has at least ten times as many legit pitching prospects as they do position players.”
That’s not the way it works when you pick at the end of the draft. You take the best player regardless of the position and what you have in the minors.
That’s even more true when you pick at the end of the first round. You have to take the best talent with the highest ceiling if you’re the yankees.
Hosmer is not going to fall to them. And I doubt any of the top college bats gets down that low either.
The left handed pitching this year after the top guy Brian Matsuz is very thin (and even Matsuz isn’t great). I don’t want to see them overdraft a lefty just because he’s a lefty when a more talented player is on the board.
Go back to last years draft in retrospect. Even with the TJ, was there any player taken after Brackman that you’d rather have in the system now?
There won’t be a Brackman level talent available, but you have to keep your draft philosophy as a consistent operating principle, IMO.
Its not like the NFL Draft. You don’t address your major league needs on this draft.
You take the best player available when you pick, regardless of position.
Since few of these players will be seeing the majors anytime soon, drafting for your current major league needs makes little sense.
I don’t Eric Hosmer drops to #28. Unless something drastically changes between now and Thursday they will most likely be drafting a college pitcher.
I’ll basically add this we are not getting Fuentes, the starting price is Hughes or Horne, and that is not gonna happen.
before you count me among the ‘nobodies’:
raise gas taxes: yes (favored it when jimmy carter proposed it)
impose fees on low mileage vehicles: yes
drill offshore: yes
drill in anwar: no
expand coal: develop better technology 1st
expand nuclear: yes
horne and hawkins for fuentes: no
trade pitching prospects for b/p help: no
trade pitching prospects for position players: yes
sign c.c.: no
sign tex: only if pos cant be filled by trade.
Damn, Joba is up against some tough customers his 1st time out. Two #1’s. Halladay (6-5 2.93) and Greinke (5-2 2.88). Teams he’s facing can’t hit for beans, but he’ll have little room for error against guys like that.
I’m not as big a Brian Fuentes fan as other people. I think he’s ok, not great.
I also think he’s not worth giving up anything of real value because its doubtful his stuff (primarily a changeup pitcher) translates in the AL.
Not against trading some of the kids but, its got to be for someone impactful.
Doreen,
The international signees generally get smaller bonuses than the U.S. kids for two related reason that both have to do with increased risk for the club.
First they are so young (many are 16). So there’s much more projection built in and much more risk. If teams had to draft players as high school sophomores rather than as seniors they’d get paid much less.
Second its harder to evaluate their talent. You don’t see them nearly as much as a U.S. kid and you don’t see them play against the same level of talent.
I don’t think this is anything close to other situations of exploitation. In fact its the opposite in many ways, though I’m sure many unfortunate things do occur.
Thanks, CB. That definitely makes sense, regarding spending less money because it’s difficult to be certain how a player’s talent projects 5 or more years down the road.
Would more international scouts solve the situation of not seeing the kids play as much? Is that something teams are spending money on?
Do the teams that draft early draft differently? Meaning, are they more apt to draft for “need” than a team like the Yankees, who really are not in a position to do so? And if so, what, really are the chances that the Yankees have of trading for position player prospects? Or are the Yankees stuck trading high ceiling prospects for only slightly above average position players, when they’re minor or major league players?
I just feel like the Yankees are in an untenable position now that the ML has achieved near-parity. I suspect we’re all going to have to get used to more seasons like this one and fewer like those in the late 90’s early 2000’s.
one thing thats also going on apparently is that some of the money thats supposed to be going in bonuses to intl players is actually going in ‘finders fees’ to the hangers-on and ‘agents’ in the dominican and elswehere. the white sox fired 2 of thier front office ppl over this recently and there are whispers that this may be widespread.
sounds like the intl market is turning into prep basketball in the u.s.
“Damn, Joba is up against some tough customers his 1st time out. Two #1’s. Halladay (6-5 2.93) and Greinke (5-2 2.88). Teams he’s facing can’t hit for beans, but he’ll have little room for error against guys like that.”
Toronto is one of the best OBP % teams in the AL in fact they rank #3
What happens if MLB decides, in its infinite wisdom, that monied teams have an “unfair advantage” in international markets, and institute an international draft? Or including international players in the regular draft? Is this a possibility?
“Toronto is one of the best OBP % teams in the AL in fact they rank #3”
10th in slugging. 10th in runs scored.
Y’s Guy (ham fighter goes retro):
Gas taxes are extremely regressive and harmful to the economy. Imposing a punitive sin tax on gas hasn’t been proven to have a real impact on demand. The rich can easily afford it while the rest suffer disproportionately. It would raise the price of food via higher transportation costs (further hurting the poor and working poor) and cause pain to other working folks who can’t use mass transit to get to their jobs. Besides, the money raised is not going to alt. fuel research – it goes to Congressional pork.
Go nuclear, drill offshore with newer, cleaner technology. Give Oil Companies better tax breaks for R&D in a Space Race type program to put clean, renewable, alternative fuels in our cars by 2020.
On the baseball front however I agree with you 100%
“I’ll basically add this we are not getting Fuentes, the starting price is Hughes or Horne, and that is not gonna happen.”
says who?
“What happens if MLB decides, in its infinite wisdom, that monied teams have an “unfair advantage†in international markets, and institute an international draft? Or including international players in the regular draft? Is this a possibility?”
I don’t believe MLB can make such a decision w/o consent from the MLBPA.
how regressive is the trillion dollar and counting gas tax we’re spending in iraq?
(and thats if you value a life lost to violence at $0)
Changing the rules of the draft is a collective bargaining issue. MLB can’t do it unless they have an agreement to do so with the Union.
Its why Selig’s “suggestion” of slotting has no teeth. He can’t penalize teams for ignoring him because the issue of slotting draft picks hasn’t been collectively bargained with the Union.
murphydog—
Not just oil companies but auto manufacturers should have an opportunity to compete for R&D dollars. It is a sin that they’ve had warning since the 70s to develop automobiles that would reduce gasoline consumption, yet they came out with the Hummer.
Taxing gasoline would be awful for all the reasons you stated. I just want to add that this country (was it the 50s with the development of the interstate system), outside of the cities, has been built for the automobile. I know I do not live in a walking community, where I can fill my basic need with use of a bicycle or my feet. I am a 20-minute drive from almost everything I need. As a result, driving is a necessity.
Re: Brian Fuentes
I disagree with the negative sentiment on the basis that the market for effective left handed relievers is so barren, that Fuentes has to be given an extremely serious look.
Lefties are 2 for 17 off him this year. I don’t expect that to continue if he gets into pinstripes, but .200 vs LHB would be great and that seems realistic with the year he’s having so far.
For whoever said the asking price starts with Hughes? What? Gagne was for Gabbard, Murphy and a very raw SS prospect. The asking price should be at toughest equal to that. I wouldn’t give up Horne, which is partly because he’s my favorite guy left in the minors, but I’d be up for basically anything else in SWB except Cox.
“Would more international scouts solve the situation of not seeing the kids play as much? Is that something teams are spending money on?”
One of the most important men in recent Yankee history is a guy many people have never heard of: Chico Heron.
Chico Heron is the international scout who in 1989 saw a skinny 150 lb shortstop throw a few pitches off a mound in Panama and decide that he had to convince the yankees to sign the teenager.
Who was that shortstop? Mariano Rivera.
Mo was completely off the radar map as a prospect in part because his family was from a very out of the way part of Panama – his father was a fisherman.
Chico Heron died earlier this year. He had become like a second father to Mo.
Here’s a brief recap of how Mariano got signed:
“A year later (1989) in the same tournament, Oeste’s top pitcher performed so poorly that the shortstop volunteered to pitch against the San Carlos team in San Carlos. The converted shortstop pitched so well that his teammates, catcher Claudino Hernández and center fielder Emilio Gáez, tipped off a Yankee scout named Chico Heron and got the converted shortstop into a Yankee tryout camp run by Heron 2 weeks later in Panama City. Heron watched Mariano Rivera throw one time, and, he says, “his arm was so loose and the
ball jumped so much that I told him to stay†the entire week of camp. On the final day, the Yankees’ new director of Latin American operations watched Rivera pitch. That executive was Herb Raybourn.
But Raybourn saw possibility. He watched just nine pitches, then told Rivera to stop. Heron figured that meant he did not like the scout’s find. But it was the opposite: Raybourn had seen enough to love the fluidity of Rivera’s arm, the cat-quick athleticism, and how Rivera’s pitches sustained deceptive life regardless of the speed. What Raybourn appreciated most was in his imagination. Rivera was just 155 pounds. But in Raybourn’s head, he was putting on weight and miles per hour. A lot could happen with better nutrition and the right training program. What Raybourn imagined convinced him to visit Rivera’s home in Puerto Caimito, a fishing town on the country’s southeast coast, 40 miles east of Panama City. Rivera’s father captained a shrimp boat owned by another man. As a teenager, Rivera worked 12-hour days alongside his father, who was affectionately known as Captain Mariano in the tiny village that reeked of fish. This line of work kept the Riveras in a regular tango with poverty, so when Raybourn showed up offering $2,000, Rivera quite willingly signed right there in his own living room on February 17, 1990. Raybourn knew if more teams were after Rivera, the offer would have to be $25,000, maybe even $50,000. But no one else saw what Herb Raybourn saw.
As you see, is awesome how Mariano was discovered, not only as pitcher, but also as Short Stop. Chico Heron and Mr Raybourn were key instruments of that sign. Chico Heron (r.i.p.)
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1076015
And another good story from the times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/sports/baseball/09rivera.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Okay, if I understand, the draft is what it is, and the international market is what it is, and no changes should be anticipated in how either is run (as far as procuring players) at this point and more than likely into the foreseeable future. Fair assessment?
TurnTwo
Hughes is not a porven asset. he is very injury prone, a few more and he will ne in Pavano territory.
Vrsce, i dont care if Hughes is the next pavano or not, i just want to know where we got the basis that Fuentes is going to cost Hughes or Horne, minimum. says who?
oops
“not a proven asset ”
“in Pavano territory”
last word on gas taxes: carters’ proposal was to raise the tax to .50 per gallon and spend all of that and more to develop alternate energy sources to reduce our dependance on foriegn oil, as well as bolster the clean-air act. granted its regressive upon imposition. but how progressive would it have become had it succeeded in reducing our dependance on forign oil (which skyrocketed under reagan) and how much would it have helped to reduce greenhouse gasses two decades before we ever heard of global warming.
what was called regresive back then could have become one of the most PROGRESSIVE taxing plans in history. not to mention greatly reducing our impetus to fight 2 wars in the region in the time since.
but back to baseball, lets go pettitte, we really need some strong innings tonight.
Phil Hughes = Carl Pavano
Greatest thing I’ve heard in a long time.
Y’s Guy (ham fighter goes retro)
Hindsight is 20/20.
he should have found a different way to fund it. No one was ever going to agree to the gas tax raise. JC was always more idealistic than practical.
vrcse
no pain, no gain.
Doreen: You mean, the state of New Jersey?
“i just want to know where we got the basis that Fuentes is going to cost Hughes or Horne, minimum. says who?”
those have been the rumors, you need to stop thinking Texas was the king of traders. Put yourself in the Rockies GM shoes he’s trying to land ML ready pitching prospects, Horne would be a target, the first name he will bring up is Philip Hughes and the last name will be Ian Kennedy, this is usually how it goes.
Just want to add a few things about gasoline.
1)Gas prices are kept artificially low in the U.S. In England they pay the equivalent of $8 a gallon.
2)Originally cars used alternative energy. The model T ran on either ethanol or gasoline. Prohibition led to cars using gasoline predominantly due to the fact that ethanol production was illegal.
3)As long as the US dollar continues to drop gas prices will continue to rise. Oil is traded in dollars, the falling value of the dollar increases the cost of a barrel of oil. If/When Americans start saving money and credit is not given away so easily the price of gas will subsequently lower.
“this is usually how it goes.”
you realize Fuentes is a bullpen guy, right? when has any team in baseball traded a decent bullpen arm for a mid-to-high upside MLB ready starting pitching prospect?
sure, Colorado COULD ask for Hughes or Horne, but its purely speculation. he most certainly wouldnt come at that price when it came down to it.
and if he did, then the team that paid that much deserves what it gets.
Blargh –
Yup! Especially from the north-central to southern areas of NJ, you have to drive EVERYWHERE! (With some exceptions, of course.)
you mean all i have to do is put a couple grand in the bank, then i can go back to road-tripping to saskatewan in my hummer?
The amount of money spent on NASA oveer the years, could have went a long way in finding an alternate fuel source.
However, some think that NASA isn’t used for space exploartion…but for defense purposes.
Y’s Guy (ham fighter goes retro)
If there had not been such a cowardly hand wringing reaction (pardon the pun) to Three mile Island, we could have a viable nuclear industry, hydrogen cars and no imported oil.
What an incredible discussion could be had about the automobile culture/economy of the United States!
Vrsce –
What an incredible discussion could be had about Hollywood’s one-sided influence on American culture/economy!
doreen, yeah and i didnt even get to the part where g.m. bought up as much of the public transportation infrastructure as they could get thier hands and put it out of service permanently.
“you realize Fuentes is a bullpen guy, right? when has any team in baseball traded a decent bullpen arm for a mid-to-high upside MLB ready starting pitching prospect?
sure, Colorado COULD ask for Hughes or Horne, but its purely speculation. he most certainly wouldnt come at that price when it came down to it.
and if he did, then the team that paid that much deserves what it gets.”
it’s called supply and demand, just look at Pittsburgh new GM former Indians assistant and he wanted Horne + Tabata for Marte. Colorado is not settling for B prospects even for Fuentes.
Apologies if this has been brought up before, but Brian Fuentes is an impending free agent at the end of this season.
He’s essentially a rental player for the rest of this year if he goes on the market.
He’s going to brink back limited value in a trade because of that.
It’s Colorado’s decision regarding whether or not they think they can compete this year. Could be a huge turnover there if they decide to move Holliday and/ or Atkins.
middle relivers just arent worth good starting prospects. lets remember, there’s a reason they’re in the bullpen and in recent years so many relievers have followed good years with bad ones and vice-versa that its not worth investing much into it. its even possible that hawkins could end up having a better 2nd half than fuentes.
its a thin line when all you got is a fastball, chageup and guts.
“he wanted Horne + Tabata for Marte.”
and did he get it? nope.
and did he get that type of package from anyone else? not yet.
supply and demand drives the system, but sometimes you need to use a little common sense when determining value, too.
Brandon,
I just put Dan O’Dowd’s shoes on. I then realized that the Yankees wouldn’t trade Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy for Johan Santana, so I rethought asking for them for Brian Fuentes.
I then referenced the market for similar past deals and Gagne’s trade came up. Octavio Dotel also rings a bell and he was traded for Kyle Davies.
I agree, Alan Horne’s name would come up. I just wouldn’t do that deal. Any other SP in SWB + a mid-level prospect, sure.
If the Pirates and Rockies want to wait for a projected front of the line SP, they can wait forever. No move in this market has dictated that a a LH reliever deserves to be swapped with projected front of the line starter.
In fact, Gabbard and Davies are back end types. You want to talk about Kennedy, it’s fair. It’s not going to happen, but you’re not going to get laughed at and hung up on. Mentioning Phil Hughes and Brian Fuentes in the same sentence is pathetic.
exactly, JW.
I didn’t read through everything but I would like to add one point. Aren’t cars in Europe more fuel efficent than those in the US?
Also I heard on tv that US car manufacturers have the technology to build cars that can run on someone thing like 100 miles to the gallon.
CB,
I don’t believe that was mentioned, but regardless, good point on top of it. Even more of a reason why Fuentes cannot command a top prospect.
“Apologies if this has been brought up before, but Brian Fuentes is an impending free agent at the end of this season.”
now that’s a different story, I didn’t know that. It would be wise for Colorado to extend him if they put him on the market because his status is uncertain as a rental player.
BTW apologies to TurnTwo
“CB,
I don’t believe that was mentioned, but regardless, good point on top of it. Even more of a reason why Fuentes cannot command a top prospect.”
Horne is not a top prospect though. He’s a good one, but not a elite one. So if/when they ask for him in return for Fuentes, it is not out of line.”
still wouldn’t do it.
Fredo – top prospect doesn’t necessarily have to mean elite prospect. He might not have the super high ceiling but he is def. too much to give up for Fuentes. Colorado is getting fed up with Fuentes and they love Hawkins. Maybe we can get something REASONABLE done.
Fredo,
I don’t think it’s out of line at all. I personally have a bias toward Horne. I think he’s going to be better than a Kason Gabbard or a Kyle Davies. I saw him pitch in Trenton last year and he was dazzling. Just electric stuff. I wouldn’t trade him for Fuentes, but if Cashman did that deal and signed him to a reasonable extension, I’d be okay with that.
“Apologies if this has been brought up before, but Brian Fuentes is an impending free agent at the end of this season.â€
Gagne was one last year too. Fuentes is quite likely a hotter commodity than Gagne was. Again, won’t be a big time prospect, but it’ll cost something more than minor league roster filler.
On the draft, I wasn’t saying draft to fill a weakness… it would be insane to go into the draft looking for a particular position… but when your organization is loaded with RH pitching prospects you should go into the draft with a mindset of improving the quality of position prospects and LH pitchers… that’s just common sense.
Fuentes is not worth giving up a lot… but you’re not going to get him for next to nothing. So you either pay the price, or you keep a bullpen with eight righties. there’s a price to be paid for addressing the weaknesses on the club.. gotta pay it or accept the flaw, it’s that simple.
For the record I would not do Horne and Hawkins for Feuentes, but I would do Marquez or Steven White and Hawkins.
another thing to remember is that just because the word is out there in the press that fuentes may be available doesnt even mean he is.
i think that half the time we hear these things, it’s the player’s agent doing the talking.
think about it, if corpas gets it back together, he gets the closer’s gig back and fuentes goes back to being a set-up man. which means he becomes less valuable in the f/a market this offseason. his agent, seeing that corpas was signed to a multi year deal and knowing that as the incumbent closer, fuentes’ value may never be higher, calls (name any baseball writer) and says, ‘pete (oops!) i heard from ppl in the rockies camp that fuentes may be available’ in an attempt to increase the hype and increase the pressure on the rockies to signg fuentes to a multi-year deal while his value is at its highest.
this kind of stuff goes on all the time, so take it with a grain of salt when you hear someone’s available. in reality, everyone’s available in some way or another.
btw wanted to add that the thing that worried me the most in last night’s game was matsui grounding out to 2b 3 times. thats ususally when he starts a slump, when he’s rolling over the ball. hopefully he’ll make a quick correction but in the past, its taken a while.
Russell you driving the getaway van
“Fuentes is quite likely a hotter commodity than Gagne was.”
I have no particular stake in this conversation but it is completely incorrect to say that Fuentes would bring back close to what Gagne did or would be looked at as an equally valuable talent.
That’s just looking at Gagne’s value in retrospect after you’ve seen how bad he was with the Sox.
Gagne was having a very strong year with Texas last year as their closer. 2.14 ERA with a WHIP of 1.0 and 8.8 K/9. He was performing at a very high level. There was little indication that he’d suddenly fall apart in Boston and pitch to an ERA of 6.75 with a WHIP of 1.9.
And in many ways the key prospect that went to Texas wasn’t Kason Gabbard but Engel Beltre.
Fuentes will in no way bring back close to what Gagne did. Gagne was a very good closer when Texas put him on the market. Fuentes is a decent to good set up man.
“Briefly: The Giants are hoping to trade left-handed reliever Erick Threets, who must come off his minor-league rehab stint this week, but so far have gotten no nibbles. ... ”
can we get him for Shelley ?
Brandon,
Threets is the minor leagues walks a ton of batters. In 348 innings he walked 259 people. Do you really want the Yankees to trade for him simply because he’s a lefty?
Should say Threets “in” the minor leagues “walked” a ton of batters.
Brandon – I’d be glad to drive the getaway van. Matter of fact, I’ll run the whole operation myself
Sooner or later Cash is going to have trade som of the pitching depth in the minors…the only question is who will it be for (SP/RP or off/def) and when?
“Should say Threets “in†the minor leagues “walked†a ton of batters.”
I’d still trade Shelley for his arm. Threets has an upside if our pitching coach can help him.
“Gagne was having a very strong year with Texas last year as their closer. 2.14 ERA with a WHIP of 1.0 and 8.8 K/9. He was performing at a very high level. There was little indication that he’d suddenly fall apart in Boston and pitch to an ERA of 6.75 with a WHIP of 1.9.”
Actually there was. After posting a .45 ERA and equally invisible WHIP thru his first 21 appearances, his final 13 appearances with the Rangers featured a 4.72 ERA and 1.38 WHIP. Also note that the Sox were aware of his past PED habits and that he had only pitched 15 innings in the two seasons prior to ‘07 due to injury. The jury was still very much out on him.
Russell just asking I’m down I’ll get the mask and chloroform if needed.
Not every guy with an arm has upside. Some, in fact most, never make it.
Its not always on the pitching coach either. The Giants have good pitching coaches in their system. If they can’t figure him out, that’s a red flag.
Its best to let the market for available players form leading up to the deadline. Once you get a real sense of what that market may be, its easier to make moves.
A guy like Threets is a complete reach. The Yankees can do better than that if they are patient.
“BTW apologies to TurnTwo”
no worries, man.
SJ not even for Shelley Duncan
Brandon,
I wouldn’t trade Duncan Hines for Threets.
Brandon, why so high on Threets? He walks a TON of guys and doesn’t K that many. And he’s 26. If we wanted a lefty like that, we could have just kept Sean Henn.
Hawkins and a B level prospect for Fuentes. I have read a few things saying the Rox want Hawkins back, but i don’t know why they would want him back on the 1yr deal that he has now.
No because that’s just making a trade to make a trade. That’s not bettering yourself.
Its like the arguments I had with people on the blog who proposed all these big May deals.
When you explain to them teams aren’t making deals in May, they go nuts.
The fact is, the WC gives teams more time to determine what they want to do with their seasons. Meaning, patience is a virtue on the trade front.
You have to wait it out and see what develops. You could have a player hit the market that you never thought would be available and have the assets to do the deal because you didn’t jump at previous deals.
I’m not a fan of hard throwing lefties who can’t throw strikes. Folks get enamored with the radar gun. I’d rather have a lefty specialist who can get lefties out and not walk people. Threets ain’t that guy.
Inter