Game 59: Blue Jays at Yankees
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 04, 2008 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
YANKEES
Damon LF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Betemit 1B
Cano 2B
Molina C
Cabrera CF
Mussina RHP
BLUE JAYS
Stewart LF
Scutaro 2B
Rios CF
Rolen 3B
Stairs DH
Overbay 1B
Barajas C
Wilkerson RF
Eckstein SS
Litsch RHP
Mike Mussina (8-4, 4.26) vs. the Toronto hitters.
Jesse Litsch (7-1, 3.18) vs. the New York hitters.
Notes: Johnny Damon has hit in 12 straight at 24 of 53 with nine RBI and only one strikeout. … Derek Jeter is 7 of his last 13. … Bobby Abreu is 0 for his last 11. … Jason Giambi has hit in seven straight at 10 of 28. He’s up to .253. He was hit in the left foot last night, which must be why he’s not playing. We’ll find out later. … Robinson Cano is 5 of his last 36 and is down to .216. … The Yankees have 5 hits in their last 34 at-bats with RISP. … The Yankees have eight errors and seven GIPDs in the last seven games and have been picked off three times.
UPDATE, 5:16 p.m.: Jorge Posada has been activated off the disabled list but is not in the lineup. He repeated what he said several weeks ago, that he will need surgery on his labrum after the season but that he can get through the rest of the season. … Dan Giese was optioned back to Scranton. … Giambi has a sore foot but is available and is expected back tomorrow. … No word on LaTroy Hawkins’ appeal of his suspension. … talked to Ian Kennedy who hopes to be throwing off a mound in five days or so. … Brian Bruney is throwing off a chair as he continues to rest his fractured foot. “I’m throwing pretty hard considering,” he said. “I could get high school guys out.”
Back with more later.
UPDATE, 6:13 p.m.: The Big G was nowhere to be found in the clubhouse or BP today. Seems he was getting treatment. Through a team spokesman, he sent out some info. His foot is sore, there’s a little swelling but he’s going to test it out before the game and see if he’s available.
UPDATE, 7:05 p.m.: Great stuff from Chad Jennings in his blog today. He talked to a scout about some of the organization’s pitchers. The scout sees Dan McCutchen being an effective reliever, which is something I’ve believed since seeing him in spring training. He also likes Alfredo Aceves, who is rocketing through the system.
UPDATE, 8:01 p.m.: The Captain now has 2,416 hits, one more than Mickey Mantle. He’s alone in third place in team history. Fittingly, it was to drive in a run and give the Yankees a lead. The crowd gave him an ovation and he lifted his helmet while standing at first base.
He’s 8 of his last 15.
UPDATE, 8:17 p.m.: How about the Moose? He has allowed four hits but no runs through four innings and has fanned four. It’s amazing what a turnaround he has had this season.
UPDATE, 8:39 p.m.: It’s raining at the Stadium, just lightly. It’s an official game. … Meanwhile, the Yanks are all over Litsch.
UPDATE, 9:01 p.m.: Moose got squeezed there by C.B. Bucknor or he might not have allowed a run. I thought he has Rios struck out.
Now the question becomes whether Girardi lets him out for the seventh with 103 pitches. The bottom of the order is up. Overbay, Barajas, Wilkerson and Eckstein are 1 for 8 with 3 Ks. Leave Moose in. The less bullpen, the better.
UPDATE, 9:29 p.m.: So, does Moose follow Cliff Lee in the All-Star Game? Meanwhile, if the Yankees hold on, this will be win No. 259 for him. Given that he pitched in the AL East his entire career in the heart of the Steroids Era, Mussina should get a lot of consideration for the Hall of Fame once he retires.
Joe said last night that they took xrays which were negtive but that he was day to day
“Robinson Cano is 5 of his last 36 and is down to .216. … The Yankees have 5 hits in their last 34 at-bats with RISP. … The Yankees have eight errors and seven GIPDs in the last seven games and have been picked off three times.”
S.A. — my thoughts exactly.
Those are pathetic stats. We’ve seen the same stuff since the beginning of the season. Posada is not going to change that.
Bet chill w/ the swinging at breaking balls , get that 32 % LD going.
Has Robinson Cano ever gone this long in his professional career without regular access to candy?
He could be one Charleston Chew away from a breakout game!
Don’t know if this is relevant, but Abreau doesn’t have a hit since he hit the twins pitcher in the face. Maybe he needs a day off?
The more you watch Robbie Cano play the more you think his long term value to the Yankees, as it was with Soriano, will come in a trade.
He’s so talented yet so inconsistent.
Sure, he may get hot and hit .350 the second half of the year.
But, its more than just that. Its WHEN you hit and when you play well.
So many wasted AB’s and lazy plays in the field.
Its going to be very interesting to see how the Yankees handle Cano the rest of this year and the off-season.
They went against their usual plan and gave this kid a 30 million dollar deal this early in his career.
Thus far, he has paid them back by being one of the worst everyday players in the AL so far this year.
That ain’t good and that can’t be making the powers that be with the Yankees very happy.
The bad baserunning, awful hitting with RISP and poor defense are not surprises. Those are three major weaknesses of this team and a big reason why its in last place.
So is one other stat: In 205 bullpen innings this year, the Yankees lead all AL teams in allowing 24 HR’s so far this year.
Combine all of the above and its not surprising where the team currently resides in the standings.
I think they each need a Baby Ruth bar …. a miniature if it makes Girardi feel better. They are playing like children because he is treating them like children. Must suck for his real kids @ Halloween.
Who does Betemit have naked pictures of … why else would he still be on the team?
At least Jorge’s going to be back and he can smack some guys around in the dugout. Yes, I’m talking about you, Robbie.
“Don’t know if this is relevant, but Abreau doesn’t have a hit since he hit the twins pitcher in the face. Maybe he needs a day off?”
for who ? Shelley “BAM BAM WHIFF” Duncan ? it’s amazing he’s still on this roster hopefully today will be the end of it.
“I think they each need a Baby Ruth bar …. a miniature if it makes Girardi feel better. They are playing like children because he is treating them like children.”
What was their excuse last year around this time?
“Who does Betemit have naked pictures of … why else would he still be on the team?”
because he can hit.
Robinson Cano is, without a doubt, my least favorite Yankee player.
I find it incredibly hard to root for him.
I have more love for Farnsworth and Hawkins than I do for Cano right now.
Farns and Hawkins are at least being who they are.
Cano on the other hand is a shell of himself.
If the Yankees actually had any guts, they would take him out of the starting lineup for an indefinite amount of time.
Just come out and say he’s no longer the starting 2b.
Bring up someone from AAA (Bernie Castro, Nick Green, Ransom or AG) and make Cano watch them from the bench.
Last season Damon didn’t begin to start showing up for games until Torre took his position away from him and Shelley showed up threatening his role on the team further.
I don’t know if the lack of a real threat to his position is making Cano complacent because I do think the guy is pressing a ton…but I also know he’s doing nothing to help this team win and if he wants to be a starter, he should have to play like one.
Look at Giambi who we all wanted DFA’d a few weeks back. He finally made the adjustment and is starting to attempt to hit balls to LF. Giambi going to LF to beat the shift raised his avg. 100 points in a couple of weeks.
Cano is showing no signs of adjusting. He’s stubborn and his baseball IQ looks low to me at times. His body language is all wrong. The guy looks defeated.
If he hits .400 in July and August, it still won’t matter because he is not helping the team in April, May and early into June. We should be building up leads in the standings now, but because we have so many guys not playing to their potentials, we’re a .500 team…barely.
I’d like to see Girardi and Cashman shake things up. I’m not talking about mass trades and DFA’s, but putting Cano on the bench for a hungrier player who might help.
If you sit every player on the Yankees who go hitless for a few games, you won’t be able to field a team.
Its also not like they have anybody on the bench who can hit.
Call me crazy but, when a team isn’t hitting, sitting down the leading RBI guy on the team doesn’t seem like a smart strategy.
I thought Posada was going to DH tonight?
Pete, Giambi was HIT in the foot, he didn’t foul it off. Ya know, another Yankee HBP…A-rod in the first inning, Giambi later in the game. Out of control
Brandon-
He can also ground into a double play.
OOps I meant to write he can also strike out
Should be an interesting game tonight. CB Buckner is behind the plate. On with the show !
I wonder when the suspension is coming for Halladay for throwing at A-Rod. Ooops, I guess suspensions only come for those who don’t even hit batters.
remember when everybody wanted giambi benched or dfa’d? well fortunatly, joe didnt listen and kept putting him out there and now he’s raking.
so now its, bench cano. i can understand the frustration but joe is sticking by him hoping he’ll come out of it just like giambi did. i wouldnt mind seeing joe sit him for a day or two to clear his head, but if we’re gonna put together a run for the playoffs, we need robbie to be on his game. and replacing him with a.g. isnt going to improve the team.
one other thing on robbie, he is a laid back player and people seem to think he isnt trying because of it. he busted it down the line twice to beat out groundouts in minny the other night and almost made a really nice play behind 2nd on the ball that jeter dropped.
i dont see a lack of effort there.
sara, citing a guy being hit in the toe with a curveball as being an intentional hbp is one of the stupidest things ive read on this blog in days.
I wouldn’t bench Cano for two reasons. One, they don’t have anybody better to play second base. Not offensively or defensively.
Gonzalez is a SS, not a second baseman and Castro isn’t that good. Nor is he on the 40 man roster.
You play him and hope he gets going. When he does, you look to deal him.
That’s right, I said trade him.
When he is on, he would bring more value back in trade than he will give the Yankees over the long haul.
JMO but, I don’t think they need a guy to be an all star at second base to win titles.
They won championships with Luis Sojo, Mariano Duncan, Jose Vizcaino and Chuck Knoblauch (hitting Keith Olberman’s mom with throws no less) playing second base. Its not a need position.
You need a solid defender, a guy who can handle the bat and play fundamentally sound baseball. A little speed also wouldn’t hurt.
They won with those guys because the team had more balance.
If Cano was a base stealer or a plus defender, I could live with the slumps.
But, like Soriano, he’s an extremely limited player. Very talented but very limited. He isn’t fast, hits without great power and is very, very inconsistent.
If the Yankees have the onions, he’s the guy I move for the right deal.
Let him be the “next Rod Carew” elsewhere. I’ll take a deal to bring back two good players (which is what he will fetch when he starts hitting again, IMO) and continue remaking the team.
Just can’t do it now because that would be selling low and I would avoid that at all costs.
Jeepers, at least the Yankee suspensions are coming on fastballs. If one of our guys got suspended for beaning someone with a 77 mph breaking ball, I’d just lose it!
Active Hit by pitch leaders, I think Manny is at 88.Check out the Yankee players.
Rank Player (age) Hit By Pitch Bats
1. Jason Kendall (34) 225 R
2. Carlos Delgado* (36) 162 L
3. Jason Giambi* (37) 143 L
4. Derek Jeter (34) 134 R
5. Alex Rodriguez (32) 131 R
6. Gary Sheffield (39) 130 R
7. Damion Easley (38) 125 R
8. David Eckstein (33) 122 R
9. Jeff Kent (40) 120 R
10. Jose Guillen (32) 115 R
great another night watching Jose Molina at bat..
the only at bats less attractive are the Cano AB’s which most including myself are not real thrilled with..
I pray g-d today is the last day I will have to see Molina AB’s on a daily basis, once or twice a week is enough.
Wow trading Cano…..I cannot believe he has not heard a thousand times to be more disciplined at the plate, can he be that stupid?
Its not about busting it down the line. That’s only one form of showing hustle and focus. Cano is a lazy player in other ways.
Wasted AB’s flailing at balls no where near the zone. Lazy plays at second. Not putting his body in front of Molina’s throw last night. Those are just lazy plays and that is his MO. He’s a lazy player.
With Giambi, let’s balance it out a bit. Yes, he has hit better than earlier in the year. Then again, he couldn’t get any worse.
He also got his first hit all season last night with 2 outs and RISP. Not exactly “clutch”.
Add in his defense, which is awful, and the question is, are the Yankees getting 23 million dollars worth of production from Giambi this year? No, they aren’t.
Hopefully, he keeps it up. However, a had a couple of hot weeks does not make him a productive player over the long haul.
I hope it leads to that but, its a little early to make that call right now.
okay, so that shows that giambi got hit on purpose on the foot with a curveball?
if he tried to hit him on the foot with a curve 100 times, i’d say he’d miss at least 98 times.
Um…SJ, you’re right about just about everything re: Cano except that he actually *is* a plus defender. Plus/Minus ranked Cano as being one of the top five defensive second basemen last year, and this season THT’s RZR has Cano third among AL 2nd basemen with a .847 rating and 5 OOZ plays (tied for fifth). Combine that with his plus arm, and it’s a bit absurd to claim that Cano is a one-dimensional player the way Soriano was (e.g., purely offensive).
Yes, Cano is struggling offensively right now. Yes, he has abandoned all strike zone discipline this season. But he started similarly slowly last year, and if he’s still one of the worst offensive players after the All Star Break, then I’ll start to be seriously concerned about his long-term future. He’s still one of the few second basemen this side of Chase Utley who has serious superstar upside in all the major leagues…
SJ perhaps you should realize that Jason got hit on the foot last night so badly that he had to go for xrays and that Girardi said he was day to day. KNowing his pension for injuries already as it is I say give him the day and let it heal even more it will help in the long run.
Cano’s strike zone discipline has actually improved this season. The trouble is that the pitches he is deciding to swing at are horrible. But he is walking more and seeing more pitches.
how are melky’s stats over the past 10 games?
That’s 10 OOZ (out-of-zone) plays, not five. Furthermore, Cano has some decent doubles power for a second basemen; there aren’t a lot of average-fielding second basemen with a lot of power, let alone plus (or potential plus)-fielding second basemen with a lot of power. While Cano does not have a lot of power, he has enough to be a major net offensive plus at an up-the-middle position, and that’s just not something a lot of teams can boast.
Cano might not ever be a superstar player, or a Hall of Fame player, but I’ll be shocked if he isn’t in the discussion for top-3 AL second baseman for the next five or six years.
How can you call it lazy play when it is more positioning rather than playing lazy?
Jorge will need surgery this offseason:
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....after.html
Apologies if that was already posted.
Ah man I thought Jorge boy was gonna DH now what reason do i have to watch this game! Bring up someone from the farm for Chrissakes this bullpen gives me indigestion
this is bad im talking 05 bad tim redding, darrell may, buddy groom bad
lets face it you, me, cash, hank and a 5 year old in north korea and girardi knows that giambi wont be worth his contract value, period. but girardi is also smart enough to know that shelley duncan wasnt going to hit this team into first place. same with cano, you have to stick with him, ignore the contract and try to get the best you can out of him.
as for the lacadaisical defense this is not new to this season. they knew all about that stuff before they signed him to a multi year deal, so calling him out on that is a little late. the only thing different with him so far this year is his lack of hitting and horrible pitch selection, which are imo one and the same problem.
I think me and a couple of guys from the weekend softball league could pitch better than the vaunted Veras, Ramirez,Hawkins and Farnsy
ok so be honest, how many of you on here were begging for edwar as the 8th ining guy yesterday?
dont make me go look it up and quote you….
Not I, Edwar is a one pitch-pitcher always has been always will be that stuff works in AAA but not here
Cano has been extraordinarily frustrating both this year and last.
When he is gong bad – he looks as bad a hitter can.
But I would not trade him. It’s far too early to do that, IMO.
He’s so much better than the average second baseman that Cano is a unique weapon that they just can’t deal until they are certain that he’s reached his ceiling.
Last year, in what was arguably the best year of his career, ARod was 11.3 wins better than a replacement level third baseman.
For one player to contribute 11.3 wins to a team over a season is an enormous amount.
Why do I bring up ARod? Because in terms of contributing to the yankees winning games last year, Cano was their second most important player last year.
Cano last year provided the yanees with 9.4 wins above a replacement level second baseman.
That’s how much better Cano is than a replacement level second baseman. I don’ think anyone thought Cano had a career year for him last year. Despite that he contributed only 2 fewer wins to the yankees than ARod did, in a career year.
That’s not saying Cano is as good as ARod. That more tells you about how bad replacement or league average second baseman are.
Much of cano value comes both on the offensive and defensive side. Cano saved the yanees around 20 runs defensively last year compared to an average second baseman.
You can’t give up on a 10 win above replacement player. You just can’t – they are far too rare.
I definitely wouldn’t trade Cano now. It’d be dumb.
If he gets his avg. back up to .300 by seasons end, I deal him in a heartbeat though.
I don’t think AG is the answer at 2b either. I kind of wish Betemit was competent enough in the field to play 2b for a few games to give Cano some pine time.
I just think it’s all mental with Cano. He’s clearly not playing to his potential due to some conflict in his head.
I get screamed at on here when I suggest Cashman giving him the money was wrong, but I’ve been saying it since they gave it to him.
He could be one of those guys who plays for money and fame over winning and the fact that he’s guaranteed to make more money than he could have dreamed of in his youth may have sapped his desire or at least confused him enough to have him come out of the gates like this.
There is a reason why the arbitration system works. Players have to keep performing to get their raises. It breeds a mental toughness. You want the big money? Make us give it to you.
What they did with Cano was completely out of character for this team. I mean seriously, if Cano played like an All Star up to his free agent year, you don’t think the Yankees would have given him a fat contract to keep him? You don’t think he would have taken it?
By guaranteeing him financial security this soon, I think they made a mistake with his development.
I’m shocked he’s done this again this year.
And for me as a fan of the team, he’s just so hard to root for right now.
He does look lazy and his body language and his “cool” doesn’t appeal to me as a player.
At least with Jeter, he combines “cool” with “gamer”.
I don’t see any “gamer” in Cano.
And I seriously think that’s what the team sorely misses. Guys willing to run through walls and do whatever it takes to win, Watching Cano try to bunt the other night was just a joke. If you can’t hit, at least get the damn bunt down.
Cano is not in Chase Utley’s class as a player. Not even close.
I know you can make stats look at number of different ways. Watch the two of them play and tell me which guy is the better player. Its Utley.
Nobody in baseball would take Robinson Cano, even when he is hitting, over Chase Utley.
Again, I don’t care what Cano hits rest of the season. I am talking about the long term.
He may very well become one of the better second baseman in baseball. But, if he can bring you back two parts in a trade that can improve your team, why not consider it?
JMO, he’s too inconsistent to be a guy to rely on over the long haul.
When a team gives you a long term deal, they are relying on you to be one of the cornerstones over the long haul. I think Cano is too much of an inconsistent player to be relied upon over the long haul and like Soriano has more value on the trade market.
Soriano was a better hitter than Cano, IMO. Not the defender Cano is but a better hitter. He was also faster. A plus in the way the game is changing today.
Despite that, he was a guy who was too up and down as a player to be relied upon over the long haul. I feel Cano is the same type of player.
Felt the same way last year and I haven’t seen anything this year to change my mind.
Like I said though, I would only deal him from a selling high position. Not now when it would be selling low.
Gayle,
I have no issue with Giambi being out tonight. That’s not my point about him. I know he got hurt last night.
My point is, does his production offset his weaknesses. Some say yes, I say no. Reasonable minds can differ.
“If he hits .400 in July and August, it still won’t matter because he is not helping the team in April, May and early into June.”
Robbie hit .295 in May. I think that helped the team.
If you have some notion that he is timing his hits so they only come in blowouts you need to find a nice round room somewhere.
Young players especially run hot and cold – Robbie is EXTREME – but just like with young pitchers you have to ride out the inconsistencies while players become more professional and balance things out.
I was, and one bad game isn’t going to change my mind. He still has some of the best upside of anyone in the Yankee bullpen right now, and the stuff to succeed in high-leverage situations.
As for Giambi, he does not have to perform relative to his contract to be an asset: he needs to perform relative to his peers at his position. While he’s an atrocious defensive first baseman, his bat is still producing enough value that he’s a net plus in the field, and it isn’t as if the Yankees currently have a superior option available to them either on the 25-man roster or immediately in the minors.
There was some hope Juan Miranda could have been that guy, but he’s looking to be nothing more than a LH platoon batter–even if he were torching AAA pitching (and he isn’t), he still would not be a satisfactory alternative to Giambi (or even to platoon with Giambi) because he brings nothing new to the table (say, RH power).
SJ I am with you on that i was commenting on the why sit your leading rbi guy coment you made (below)
Call me crazy but, when a team isn’t hitting, sitting down the leading RBI guy on the team doesn’t seem like a smart strategy.
Why did the Yankees activate Posada today if he wasn’t going to play?
g love
“I’m shocked he’s done this again this year” completly defeats your argument that he’s complacent because of his multi year deal.
IDEA: trade Cano and sign the O-dog Orlando Hudson good hitter speedy only 30 and a RIDICULOUS fielder remember him from Toronto adding him changes the team
Giese optioned to AAA to make room for Posada…
Makes sense… why wait another day if Giese wasn’t going to pitch tonight anyways… might as well have the extra bat off the bench
Y’s,
I called Cano out for the same stuff last year.
I just see him as the kind of player you win with when you are able to deal him and get back parts that make the overall team better. I don’t see him as a cornerstone of the franchise type of guy.
As bad as Edwar was last night, I would have him among the candidates for the 8th inning by committee role the Yankees are making noises about doing.
If you don’t have one guy to count on for the 8th, try doing it by committee until one emerges.
I am not looking for perfection out of the bulllpen. Just as I am not looking for perfection out of Cano.
I am however, looking for consistency. If a player can’t provide it, he has no long term or short term value to the team.
JMO, reasonable minds can differ on it.
how has melky been recently?
Kenny commented on something the other night that Cano swings at horrible pitches because he’s actually good enough to hit them. He has too much confidence in his swing.
SomeGuy32,
Source?
SJ, you’re setting up strawman arguments. I was not putting Cano in Utley’s class as a player–I was saying that OUTSIDE of Utley, you’re hard pressed to find a better second baseman in all of baseball than Robinson Cano, not just this season (and there’s still enough season for him to turn around his struggles at the plate; I believe it was on River Ave. Blues that it was pointed out Cano only had twelve additional hits last year than this year in comparable plate appearances), but looking at the next three, possibly even the next five (he’s still only 25, so there’s a good argument that he’s yet to reach his peak).
For the reasons that CB outlined in his post above, there’s simply no way you cut bait and trade Cano. You would have to get some pretty incredible talent back for him–I’m talking similar to the haul that Dan Haren received back for the Athletics, because Cano does not just have superior talent, he has a very valuable contract, too.
“Giese optioned to AAA to make room for Posada…
Makes sense… why wait another day if Giese wasn’t going to pitch tonight anyways… might as well have the extra bat off the bench”
are you kidding me ? what does Shelley Ducan have to do to show he does not belong on this roster
JW–MLB.com. I got an mlb alert about the activation.
Gayle,
Abreu leads the team in RBI with 37. Jason has 29.
I was referring to Abreu when someone posted about sitting him tonight.
Ok Giese was optioned?? Now I am really really confused on this move unless come SUnday Moller is gone and Giese comes back up to be the long man for Joba.
roger that SJ thought you were referring to Jason from the comment before lol
and since Bobby is playing that made me think even more you were talking about Jason lol. The Giese move again bring me to the question I asked the other day in advnace of all these moves i guess it shows that the Yankees would rather have a bigger bench than a larger pen??
Good point Fallen Phoenix we would need to get back an organizations best ML ready pitching prospect in order to move cano
Giese threw 65 pitches yesterday and won’t be available for several days. I guess that it.
The issue now is what do they do with Joba’s next start? They are still going to need a long man.
And Giese can’t be called back up for 10 days unless they have an injury.
sj, i agree with you that they have to look at thier options with cano once he gets hitting better. i think they should consider trading him if the right offer comes along, but for now, thats all way off in the future.
for now, you maybe sit him a game or two, then put him back in and ride it out.
my point about his lacadasical play being present prior to his multi year deal was an argument against those who say the contract has made him complacent, not that it doesnt exsist. i did notice that you had mentioned it when they first announced cano’s contract. i was just saying that those who say he’s lazy b/c of the contract are wrong imo.
Fallen Phoenix,
That’s my point. If you get back 3 guys that improve the overall team, (because of his talent) don’t you think you can find a second baseman (as the Yankees have done in the past) to get the job done?
My point is, a guy like Cano may be more valuable in what he gets you back in trade than he is playing for your team.
Obviously, reasonable minds can differ on the issue.
Is he so good that bringing back 3 players (using this as an example, obviously) isn’t better than having him as your second baseman?
Gayle –
Giese can’t come back up for 10 days or so (someone knows the exact time frame) unless someone else gets hurt. So it will someone else doing the long relief Sunday
Probably the wrong site to ask, but are their any studies of players as inconsistent as Cano appears to be? Do they pan out, or do they fall of into Juan Samuelness? Or is his inconsistency merely a statistical quirk, and in ten years no one will remember he had a several (very) bad months early in his career?
I wish I could borrow the brain of the Cano apologists on here. I don’t know how anyone who is a fan of this team can feel good about him.
I know it’s about the long haul, but he has once again proven that he is someone we can’t rely on to win. Everything has to be perfect for him to perform. I’m sorry, but the guy is a bit of a baby.
And if he hit .295 in May as was posted and his avg. is still under .220, then that just goes to show you how god awful the guy is playing.
I want him to come back and his .300 so we can actually trade him for something decent.
Send him to the Dodgers who will need a 2b with Kent retiring for some of that young talent.
Torre and Bowa will get the best out of him and we can get a good young OF’er and a pitcher I bet.
This isn’t for this season though. I don’t advocate trading him now unless some incredible deal falls into the Yanks laps.
In the off season, he should not be an untouchable.
CB
You didn’t hear that Chad is going to wake up with a sore back, and needs to go on the dl Sunday?
“And Giese can’t be called back up for 10 days unless they have an injury.”
CB you say that like it’s difficult
The Cano debate reminds me (to remind you) that he came up to the big club because they were desperate to replace Tony Womack. I raise this point because it means that Cano was not necessarily breaking the door down to get to The Bronx, but rather that he was in the right place at the right time. He showed enough since then to keep the Yankees interested in him. But had he bombed immediately, he would have already been gone because I don’t recall him being hailed as the “next Carew” when he arrived in the Bronx with Wang. Cano just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
My observations of him suggest an immature player, one who certainly lacks, say, Jeter’s command of the game and all its situations. Cano probably misses Bowa for the ramrod discipline he apparently provided but at some point a player has to “get it” on his own. There’s only so much coaching you can give a player.
Yes, they just signed him to a long term contract to buy out some arb eligible years. But there is new evidence – - he’s completely lost at the plate going into his 4th year as a pro – - and thus a basis to revisit that commitment. But the contract is far from an inhibition to a trade. IMO it makes Cano more attractive as a trade piece precisely because some arb. eligible years are already locked up.
Cano will be an interesting read.
One would think that with the contract he signed last winter giving him financial security, he would make every attempt to show he was worth it and put up a stellar year.
If his lackadaisical play continues, it’s only a matter of time when Hank Steinbrenner calls him out and then the rumors start that the team will listen to offers for the “next Rod Carew”.
If his best buddy (Melky)can’t get through to him, then 10 Larry Bowas won’t make a difference.
im not a cano appologist, im not even much of a fan of his. i was just pointing out that the argument that he’s lazy b/c of his new contract is the reason he’s doing so badly. he was streaky and laid back before he signed the contract, and he slumped last season at the start, too (admittedly, not this badly though)
my other point about cano is the same i make about the bullpen, we dont have any better options as of right now.
“He showed enough since then to keep the Yankees interested in him.”
By this, do you mean starting in last year’s all-star game? Or maybe you are referring to coming in 2nd in rookie of the year voting in 2005?
We have scads of rookies and graybeards – can we please hold onto to someone who is going into their prime with an affordable contract?
cano to the dodgers for kershaw and kemp!!1
come on
“Now I am really really confused on this move unless come SUnday Moller is gone and Giese comes back up to be the long man for Joba.”
Britton’s still with the team so either he or Ohlendorf will be the long man on Sunday.
But they may not even need a long man on Sunday. The Royals are atrocious. Joba’s pitch limit will probably be 80 on Sunday. 80 pitches should be enough to get through 6 innings against the Royals.
If the yankees continue to draft the way they are and continue to sign players on the international market the way they are, then I’m confidant that they will be able to find most of the positions they need. They are already stockpiling pitching.
They’ll be able to find high upside outfielders, they’ll be able to find a first baseman. Those are the positions they most immediately need to turn over.
They can find all star caliber players at those position.
I have no idea if they can find an second baseman who has plus hitting skills and a plus glove.
Second base is a strange position. If you look at the 5 best position player prospects at second and compare them to the 5 best position players at other positions they pale in comparison.
Year in and out second base is one of the single worst position to try to draft. In many ways the position is harder to fill with a good player than SS is.
The yankees need to create comparative advantages with other teams – that means having plus players at positions that are very difficult to fill.
That’s partly why Jeter, Posada and to a lesser extent Bernie formed the core to a dynasty.
They were not only terrific to great players, they play positions that most other teams get very little from. That generates enormous differential advantages, especially for a team that has vast resources to spend on positions that are easier to fill e.g. Right Field.
Cano offers that same kind of potential advantage. That’s an enormous issue.
Murph,
Jim Kaat, whom I love, tagged him with the “next Carew” line after he saw him swing the bat in Tampa.
I remember Torre wanted to kill him (in a playful way) because they didn’t to put too much pressure on him! lol
I think the kid is a very talented player.
However, just as I said last night that I don’t care if Joba gives up 10 runs in his start, its the right move to put him in the rotation, I’ve never wavered in my feelings about Cano.
He’s good, not great, not a franchise guy and never will be. JMHO on the subject.
Even if he hits .400 the rest of the way, he’s a guy you look to deal to improve the overall team.
I agree with you, his contract makes him even more attractive on the trade market.
With limited trade options, Cano could prove to be a very valuable chip down the line.
I’m not saying tomorrow or even next month. I’m saying that he should never be considered an untouchable on this team and if the right deal came along, the Yankees ought to pull the trigger.
Ugh Cano has definitely been frustrating. How about in the draft, the Yankees focus on just position players this year? Enough with RHP’s.
“Cano probably misses Bowa for the ramrod discipline he apparently provided but at some point a player has to “get it†on his own. There’s only so much coaching you can give a player.”
Cano was just as terrible at the beginning of last year when Bowa was with the team.
You guys crack me up. Any player that scuffles for awhile and it’s demote him or trade him. When Cano hits .400 in July and August you’ll all be like “he’s the man” and I knew he’d come around. Funny stuff.
CB,
I guess my question is, do you need a plus guy at second base?
Couldn’t you argue that’s the one position that you really don’t need to have a plus guy?
That’s all I am trying to say. I don’t think you need a plus guy at second base.
If you have one, and he can bring you back the type of value to improve your overall team, isn’t it worth exploring?
Especially for a team like the Yankees who can fill their plus position needs in a variety of ways.
“Second base is a strange position. If you look at the 5 best position player prospects at second and compare them to the 5 best position players at other positions they pale in comparison.”
This is true – I don’t think you look to this position for a cornerstone or a franchise player. The only memorable Yankee 2B in my memory is (comeback kid) Willie Randolph and he was not exactly spectacular.
TKinDC:
I understand your point, but Cano as a player is equal to whatever you can get for him. If the right deal is made and you improve the team with two affordable players I’m not sure if that’s a bad thing.
guys, i love chatting yanks baseball with you.
unfortunatly, i will be watching tonights game on tivo instead of enjoying it with so many good fellow yankee fans (plus the others).
enjoy the game
LETS GO YANKEES!!!!
Not what I’m saying Bad Scooter. I’m saying that even if he hits .400, is he the kind of guy that you can count on over the long haul as you retool the team?
I think its a legitimate question.
like I said I’m not gonna hate on Robi but look where his career is heading
After 0-2
.209/.231/.307 .538 OPS
After 1-2
.235/.256/.377 .633 OPS
After 2-2
.253/.300/.393 .693 OPS
139 recorded 3 ball counts in his whole career
Bad Scooter–I can guarantee you I will not be posting “he’s the man” if Cano hits .400 in July and August.
I’ll be posting, “it would have been nice for him to show up in the early parts of the season”.
Again, it’s all mental with Cano. He’s getting himself out. A guy this fragile in the head is tough to take.
The thing that scares me is if he does hit .300 by seasons end and the Yanks float him in a few deals, will other teams not pay as much after back to back seasons of disappearing in the spring?
If you’re a GM, do you want to trade big pieces to get Cano knowing he might not hit until July?
You might lose your job by then if the players you give up for him start off strong.
that’s 4 seasons ^^^ and yes I think he can do better and contribute, it’s just something has to change
SJ,
Well, that’s just it, isn’t it? It would really depend on the package of players. I think the Yankees would probably think long and hard about trading Cano if they could fill multiple holes with high-level prospects, but with Cano’s ceiling–and I’m just not convinced that 200 PAs are enough to conclude that he will not ever come close to being a 7 or 8 WARP player again, which BP’s PECOTA sees as his mean talent level–the Yankees would have to love the pieces they are getting back.
And I think they would more strongly consider the trade if the Yankees could secure a solid 2nd base alternative in return (off the top of my head, I cannot think of too many attractive 2nd base prospects who have major upside, but that’s probably because most 2nd basemen are converted shortstops), or have one already close to the majors already. It isn’t that 2nd base is necessarily a premium position, just that Cano can be so much better than your average second baseman (let alone replacement) that it allows your team to have positional weaknesses elsewhere, such as 1st base or (when Jeter begins to slow down offensively) shortstop.
Ultimately, I’ll concede that it is unreasonable to say no to trading Cano under ANY circumstance, but Dan Haren-like trades for a player who was JUST signed through his arbitration years aren’t exactly common, which is why I think such a scenario is highly unlikely. I think it would take exceptional circumstances for the Yankees to begin shopping Cano for those sorts of packages, and I cannot see teams seriously kicking the tires on Cano unless the Yankees start shopping him first.
murphydog -
It is impossible to argue with that proposition (i.e. the right deal) – I just think that the Yanks have finally caught on to developing players and retaining talent in a smart way by locking Cano up.
Our infield is what, like $25M, $18M, $3M, and $20M this year. We need to hold the line somewhere.
“You guys crack me up. Any player that scuffles for awhile and it’s demote him or trade him. When Cano hits .400 in July and August you’ll all be like “he’s the man†and I knew he’d come around. Funny stuff.”
I won’t. Because the excuses of “he’ll hit when it’s warm” or “he misses Larry Bowa”
aren’t good enough. First of all any major league player who can’t function without a good, swift kick in the butt from a coach, I have questions about to begin with.
His plate discipline is horrible as is his overall approach at the plate. He has talent, but he was never regarded as a blue-chip prospect coming up.
The fact that his contract is manageable does make him a valuable trade chip.
Brandon –
I have no idea what to make of that unless you show the league averages.
rconn23 I wouldn’t trade him but I’d change my approach w/ him if I were in the Yankees staff.
Brandon:
Guess who this is:
After 0-2 .225 .257 .376 .633
After 1-2 .237 .294 .416 .710
After 2-2 .228 .339 .424 .763
You come up with some weird stats to pick when trying to discuss the viability of players. Those counts are called pitchers counts for a reason. you’re in the hole!
I also just wanted to add that I’m pretty much entirely behind CB on this issue, in large part because he’s making the same points I am, just far more articulately (and swiftly, at that!). I think that Cano provides the illusion of a complementary player, while the value he ultimately produces at the end of the season points towards him being a huge difference maker when comparing the composition of entire rosters.
And again, I think there’s a very good argument to make that Cano isn’t yet just what he is–this is only his third full season in the majors, and I think he still has the potential to break out in a very big way, even compared to last season. If he does that, I’m not sure another team would even be able to approach the kind of package the Yankees would look for in order to move Cano.
TK the league average in which category ?
Bad Scooter:
“When Cano hits .400 in July and August you’ll all be like “he’s the man†and I knew he’d come around. Funny stuff.”
It’s not really funny. It just means you are not following the point.
I’m not talking about DFA’ing him. I’m saying he is not essential to the team’s success like A-Rod, Jeter, Po and Mo. So, if the right trade is made it improves the team.
If Cano starts hitting again later in the year, great. But please don’t insult my intelligence by suggesting that I will then conveniently forget what I’ve written today. Even if he hits .500 in July and August but goes cold in September and October, he’s still a headache as a player. Cano was really inconsistent for the first two months of the season and could not be counted on. It’s June now and he still shows no signs of really coming out of it. And this is not the first season he’s been unable to right himself at the plate.
The Yankees may well decide to keep him as their 2d baseman. That would not necessarily be wrong. But if Cano can fetch one or more young, talented, affordable players that fit slots the Yankees need filled, it won’t be the end of the world.
Peter, no skulls cracked last night eh? He spared the media? lol you know I was not saying he should take it out on you guys but rather should vent through you guys. Hell, the team is not giving you anything good to write maybe he should…
Just another loss? That’s what this all feels like and I hate it.
I wonder if giving Cano a long term deal was a good move. They did not have to and with the perception that he is lazy and needs to be pushed, I wonder if he has not be come complacent. Seeing him swing at the first pitch every time up no matter where it is has been frustrating to watch.
By the way just saw on Rotoworld that the Rays are putting Carlos Pena on the DL with a fractured finger.
If Cano hits .400 in July and August and Damon or Matsui hit .200 in July and August is that not helping out the team?
Alfonso Soriano was traded for the greatest player in the game A-Rod. Is anyone willing to give up a couple of top 10 pieces for Robinson Cano? A top ten piece and a very good prospect?
Brandon, you do realize that most players have poor numbers in 0-2/1-2 counts right? That’s why they call them pitcher’s counts. Just for fun what are Robbie’s numbers when the count is 0-0/1-0/2-0?
Brandon is taking too long to answer my question, but the 0-2 1-2 and 2-2 stats I gave were for a-rod. One of the greatest hitters to ever live.
SJ, I actually wrote that while you were writing your post when you mentioned Cano hitting .400. I didn;t know you were going to say that. I understand what you mean though. But I still think Cano is a guy who will hit .320 20 100 .850-.875 OPS more often than not.
His problem is pitch selection. He swings at too many balls and the other teams know that. Why throw him a strike when he’ll get himself out swinging at bad pitches? He’s gone two months with no adjustment. Kevin Long where are you? It’s not Longs fault though. I’m sure he’s working with Cano on his pitch selection and has since the beginning.
is it just me ….
that feels we’re going to lose every other game from now on?
what’s with this team?
TKinDC:
I am all for reducing the payroll. If you trade Cano – who is arguably more and at the same time less than the Yankee need at 2d base – for two players that have upside and are affordable, I think that holds the line.
Why the heck Cano can’t change his habit of swinging 1st pitch almost no matter what. And why no coaches can change that?
Giving Cano a long term deal clearly wss a mistake.
I have another question. If Cano bats .400 in April and May and then in June bats .087 would people still want to get rid of him? I guess my question is, do at-bats in April and May somehow hold more weight than at bats in June, July and August?
“You come up with some weird stats to pick when trying to discuss the viability of players. Those counts are called pitchers counts for a reason. you’re in the hole!”
I’m just showing how his 1st pitch, 2nd swinging doesn’t bode well for his career especially when he forces it.
Please guys…look at Robbie’s career monthly splits. I mean do some research for crying out loud.
Last 3 years May average is 264
June-Sept respectively….
.324/.351/.283/.362
It’s not time to panic on him yet.
I wish I could find out in his 4 yr. career how many times he swung at pitch 1 and 2
“I guess my question is, do you need a plus guy at second base?”
SJ,
You’re raised a number of interesting points. And again, these are all just differences in opinion on a tough issue. Everything you’ve said is more than reasonable.
Here’s my thing. No traditionally you don’t need a plus second baseman to win.
But if you do have one – a true plus guy – can you afford to let him go because you might not get one for the next 15 years?
Say the yankees traded him for I don’t know, say Ryan Braun.
Ryan Braun is a better player than Cano.
But I’m more certain that the yankees can acquire a Ryan Braun like player (draft or free agency) than they can a Cano like player.
With the yankees resources and draft philosophy I really think that one day soon they are going to have 3 plus outfielder, a plus first baseman and a plus catcher.
I could be wrong but I think there’s a high probability that they’ll fill those positions either internally or externally. Maybe I’m wrong. Some of those pieces I think may be in place in the minors.
I have no idea if they are going to be able to find a plus SS to replace Jeter or a plus 2nd baseman if they trade Cano. No idea. They just don’t come along too often.
When you have the resources the yankees have at their disposal, IMO they should try to create the best team possible by maximizing marginal advantages.
That means trying very hard to put plus players at positions that are traditionally not plus positions.
Second base is one of those.
Now that’s not saying I would “build” the team around him the way they did with Jeter. To me, he’s a guy who I wait and see hoping he provides relative advantage.
In a certain way I see right now as a potential complementary elite player, if that makes sense.
Normally that’s a player I’d trade. Soriano was that kind of player. I was fine trading Soriano because it was clear he was an outfielder in the waiting.
I’m fine with Cano being that complementary elite player as he is a true plus defensive second baseman.
A complementary elite player is the kind of paradoxical player that only the yankees can afford to carry.
So in that respect I think he’s the kind of “luxury” they can afford to carry because of their resources.
So I’d keep him and be willing to live with his failings and hope he goes from potential complementary elite player to a true franchise player as he matures.
With Cano it’s about running up marginal advantages. Only a team with resources like the yankees can afford to do that.
Cano hits: .362 .362 .553 .915 on the first pitch.
.333 .339 .519 .857 1-0
.415 .415 .642 1.057 2-0
for his career. Why would you change that?
Maybe the patience that Cano has displayed is messing with him? He is told to start taking pitches, so he lets a lot of meatballs go by. Now he is trying to get back to that, so he is hacking.
.239 .239 .326 .565
Whoa, how can you say Cano is not essential to this teams success. He struggled last spring and the Yanks struggled. He started to swing the bat and the Yanks started winning. Of course he wasn’t the only reason, but he helped a little. This spring he is awful and the Yanks are mediocre. Don’t forget he was one of only a few that did anything in the playoffs last year. Had a nice series at the plate against the Tribe.
His career average on first pitch is .381 not shabby
BTW the Boston hype machine Peter Gammons just deemed Craig Hansens the best 8th inning guy in the AL.
If a pitcher has a lifetime 115 OPS+ after 7 years in the bigs and only has 1 season in which he pitched 200 innings where his OPS+ was over 101 but also has a 10-1 record in the postseason is he an Ace?
the .381 was for prior 3 years.
Craig ‘My ERA > # of K’s’ Hansen?!
“Alfonso Soriano was traded for the greatest player in the game A-Rod. Is anyone willing to give up a couple of top 10 pieces for Robinson Cano? A top ten piece and a very good prospect?”
Fair point. Maybe not right now and maybe not until the off season as teams re-assess their needs. But Cano is an attractive player who is affordable and under contract for the next few years.
Texas was dying to get rid of A-Rod and the Yanks were equally interested in moving Sori, for some of the same reasons that are becoming manifest in Cano. Sori was hardly the equal of A-Rod and that deal was not on the Yankees’ radar until the Boston deal fell through. But then it came together pretty quickly.
The right scenario may not be on the horizon at this moment, but that is a long way from saying it won’t happen.
Who wouldn’t be fine trading Soriano if it brought back arguably the most talented player in baseball who will go down as an all-time great? Bottom line regarding trading Soriano is who it brought back. That was a no brainer.
*Yu* is in the building!!!!
I wish the actual pitcher were on the Yankees, and not just some bum on a blog.
Yankees gonna win this ball game tonight I smell that offense its right around the corner
“for his career. Why would you change that?
Maybe the patience that Cano has displayed is messing with him? He is told to start taking pitches, so he lets a lot of meatballs go by. Now he is trying to get back to that, so he is hacking.”
I would agree w/ you if they were line outs or good pitches to hit but for the last few weeks he’s been swinging at bad pitches and getting himself into bad counts instead of good ones, go and check his numbers on 2-0, 1-0, 2-1 and 3-1, I guarantee you those numbers OBP% and SLG % are also high, that’s what I love about Robi talented kid but gets trigger happy.
Jerk your the Bum Im internationally known man
That’s not the offense, its the chicken that Serrano just sacrificed to wake up the bats
The ‘trade Cano’ crowd is going to look just as foolish as the ‘send him down to AAA crowd’ did last year. Or do you really not remember at all?
SJ44 says that Cano is comparable to Soriano in that he will bring the Yankees back more value in a trade. Okay, but only if you trade Cano for the best player in the game. That’s what Soriano was traded for.
Trading Cano for prospects is incredibly dumb. Just really, horribly, incredibly dumb. Who would you trade him for? Seriously, come up with a package with a team who needs a second baseman. Not that easy, is it? Plus, who will play second base? Alberto Gonzalez? And you thought Cano was bad with the bat in April? Sheesh.
Cano is a very, very, very good defensive second baseman. He gets to balls that few second basemen could even dream of reaching. That backwards pass to Jeter that Jeter dropped? Let me assure you, Dustin Pedroia would not have even attempted to reach that ball.
I didn’t get the Cano hate last year, and while I get the Cano frustration this year, calling on the team to trade him? Even if he comes all the way back to hit .300 this year? Why, because he’s not a ‘first-half’ player? Because he’s not ‘clutch’? He was the best-hitting Yankee in last year’s playoffs. He was maybe, maybe behind Posada as the second-most valuable Yankee last year. He was THIRD in the AL, points behind Jeter and Mauer, in 2006. But all that goes away because he’s had a tough two months? Do you think people in Boston are piling on Dustin Pedroia because he has a .317 OBP (on-base ability drives his value) this year? Surely Alex Cora could provide similar value. Tell me, should Boston trade Pedroia? And trust me, Pedroia is not near the player Cano is, offensively or defensively.
You don’t trade a player just to trade a player. That’s horrible, horrible business.
Cano looks bad at the plate right now, no doubt. But he looked just about as bad this time last year, too. Was the next four months a fluke? How’d he look then? Or do we throw that out the window because we’re all ‘what have you done for me lately’ fans?
Thankfully, the Yankee FO is infinitely smarter than the lot of us.
But seriously I like it here in Japan why do I wanna pitch 4 a team with no bullpen?
“go and check his numbers on 2-0, 1-0, 2-1 and 3-1, I guarantee you those numbers OBP% and SLG % are also high”
Brandon,
This is not unique to Cano. Most players are better hitters when pitchers have to throw a strike. That’s why most players have good averages when the bases are loaded.
Brandon:
my point was that maybe they changed his approach, so he wasn’t swinging at many first pitches(I believe this is true early season). He was hitting the ball hard but with few results, so now he is going back to his old ways but is too over eager. Thus the pitiful line this season on first pitches.
Its obvious, that for his career he is an amazing first pitch and hitters count hitter. He has a 1 ops in favorable counts!
Gammons said what? Why do you watch that crap? They obviously are told in their production meetings to say inflammatory things about the Yanks or that would get Yankee fans upset. No doubt in my mind. Actually, I think I heard one of their (ESPN’s) guys even admit to that.
Hansen has pithced 11 times and has allowed runs in 6 of those appearances. Not good for a guy who pithces 1, maybe 2, innings at a time.
gammons is a shill for the sux..
hansen is as reliable as cox and melancon are, zilch to be determined…
you know you have a bad pen when you miss brian bruney …..
he at least had no fear, often did not know where the ball was going but was not scared of contact this year all 13 innings of this yr.
I assume they will go to Ohlendorf in the 7th tonight.
I have not given up on Edwar because of 1 bad outing, to me he is totally a better option then Latroy and to me Kyle also..
Farnsworth is a joke…
Gammons is an anti-Yankee D0uche!
“I guess my question is, do at-bats in April and May somehow hold more weight than at bats in June, July and August?”
I guess I get tired of the peaks and valleys. Slumps happen, but consistency (and thus reliability) is more valuable IMO.
I can probably be easily undone by statheads on this, but yes, I think July and August at bats mean more. In May and June, the season is taking shape, and it’s not too late to overcome deficits caused by whatever reason. As the season gets older, however, a game comes off the calendar every day and there are less chances to make up ground. So, unless you have run away with the division in April and May, July and August matter more because they are closer to the finish line. I think.
Robbie is doing horrible on 1-1, and 3-1 counts. His BABIP is also pathetic in every count. Even the count in which he hits .300, .300, .600 he has a .222 BABIP.
Theres a lot of things going wrong this season adding up for Cano.
Why is it that all of ESPN’s so called baseball “analysts” are from Boston or currently work for a boston publication I hate that is flagrant anti-ny BS
We need to start a petition for Gammons to be ejected from the hall. The offense is that he is Theo’s Be-atch!
Im gonna change NESN to (New. England. Sucks. Network)
Brandon,
Gammons also said earlier this year that Manny Delcarmen would be among the best pitchers in baseball this year.
Someone at ESPN needs to calm him down a bit. Either that, or only let him comment on the Red Sox on a special page devoted to the Red Sox.
According to FanGraphs, robby swings at less pitches outside of the zone than in 2007. However, he makes FAR more contact.
34% and 69% in 2007
30% and 80!!% in 2008
His line drive % has also fallen to a career low.
It’s not about Cano’s swinging at the first pitch thats the problem. It is swinging at the pitchers pitch. The league has made the adjustment on him and he doesn’t seem to be able to make the adjustment back. To only swing at pitches in his hitting zone. He is super easy to pitch to because he will swing at what pitch the pitcher wants him to. Patience isn’t about taking pitches.
It’s about taking pitches you can’t drive. When was the last time you saw Cano drive a ball?
Murphydog,
I’m not for or against trading Cano, but if they were to trade him then he would have to bring back a haul of very good players and a least 1 player who is already a major leaguer in my opinion.
I wouldnt be suprised one day if they find Gammons, Theo, Ben Affleck and Tom Brady all in bed together
People that get mad at ESPN for being Sox shills really need to get a life. You do realize the same thing is said up there but about the Yankees? Does this really effect your day? That Gammons is a New Englander and has a little Sox in him??
I’m not saying trade Cano for “prospects”.
I am saying he shouldn’t be label an untouchable no matter how many stats you want to put up to try and make a point.
Watch the kid play everyday.
Sorry but, you can’t show up for half a season and expect to be considered a great player.
He’s not a great player.
Perhaps he will be one day. Or, perhaps he will just be a stat compiler and nothing.
None of us know the answer to that question right now.
I’m saying that if you could get 2-3 players that you felt confident would make the overall team better, than I don’t believe trading Cano is so far fetched.
Regardless of what he does the second half of the season.
Where is Cairo when we need him!!? I for one, dont like his laid back style and his bonehead approach at the plate. He does remind me alot of Soriano. I liked the person who suggested going after Orlando Hudson. I mentioned that last year but didnt get much love. If we could unload Sori and get Mr. MVP in return. Why not trade Cano and get a decent first baseman and an outfielder.
Who were the people who didnt want to trade Cano for Miguel Cabrera last year again?
“Tell me, should Boston trade Pedroia? And trust me, Pedroia is not near the player Cano is, offensively or defensively.”
Precisely. Pedroia does not have the trade value Cano does.
Cano is more likely a trade piece because to his current team he is maddeningly inconsistent AND because he will fetch something good in return. It makes sense to think about trading Cano for BOTH of those reasons. It’s what you could get back for him that makes it worth looking into.
Soriano is not really a great comparison to Cano, IMO because Soriano was a horrible defensive player.
It was obvious to everyone that Soriano was just not a middle infielder. He was just a guy standing between first and second.
He was going to get moved to the OF at some point in time and that time was coming soon.
Soriano is a better offensive player than cano in absolute terms.
But when compared to the average player at their position, Cano is better than Soriano.
Cano is much, much better than an average second baseman both because he’s a very good offensive player and the average second baseman stinks. Soriano is better than the average left fielder but not by as much as Cano is compared to the average second baseman.
Last year Soriano was 7.6 wins better than an average LF. Last year Cano was 9.4 wins better than an average second baseman. And cano can hit better than he did last year.
Murray Dude, How can they say that about us when all the broadcasters are Boston born and bred?
Why don’t the fans boo Cano, they were all over Arod 2 years ago, and he hustled. Sure Arod’s got a big contract but Cano’s contract now is bigger than he ever thought he would make. Cano’s a dog, he spends more time clubbing than thinking about baseball. i will let him hear it.Time for us to show our disatisfaction BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Real smart move. Trade Cano when he’s hitting 200 and right after hes signed a long term contract. Let’s overlook the fact that he plays 2b, is an all star, hits left, and is projected to be a future 3rd place hitter. But lets move him when his value is real low.
Amazes me how many people give up on players during slumps. But these are the same people who probably wanted Jeter traded during his 0 fer month and wanted Mariano out of the closer job after 2 blown saves.
Not only are they all Bostonians but it reflects heavily in their coverage
I don’t know who that’d be, Miggy is as young as Cano and better offensively, but Cano’s defense kind of stumps that. Except you’d trade Cano + MORE for him. I was very against Wang + Cano for Willis.
“Does this really effect your day? That Gammons is a New Englander and has a little Sox in him??”
Don’t diss Varitek’s wang size. you’ll make him sad.
“I’m not for or against trading Cano, but if they were to trade him then he would have to bring back a haul of very good players and a least 1 player who is already a major leaguer in my opinion.”
Agreed. It’s not a fire sale.
Looks like it might rain.
Man I wish Robbie could get something going. He is very frustrating to watch right now.
I heard Gammons on 1050 while driving home. I was about to throw up in my car. Thankfully I made it home in time.
“Cano hits: .362 .362 .553 .915 on the first pitch.”
i’ve always been amused by this stat.
it’s deceptive because it’s literally what a player hits when he hits the first pitch.
it’s not what he hits when he swings at the first pitch.
that would be a totally different number and way lower.
anyone that watches cano on a regular basis knows that he should be more patient at the plate. because he doesn’t miss a lot of pitches, he has to be careful what he swings at.
some locations just can’t be put in play hard. it’d be better if he missed them completely.
he gets the bat on the ball , but can’t drive it with any athority in the location it’s in.
Who cares if the Sportscenter announcers are Boston fans? Does it really matter? And you are kidding yourself if you don’t think fans around the country think ESPN is Yankee oriented. Check their national games. Again, does it really matter if Steve Phillips hates NY?
Cano in a slump…………. He’s in a coma
Whoever said that ESPN doesn’t intentionally go out of their way to talk about the Yankees is dead wrong. Positive or negative they always talk about the Yankees because that’s what will get ratings and people talking. I’d hate to be a fan of a team other than the Yanks and Sox and watch ESPN because half of their time they spend talking about MLB is about the Yanks and Sox.
Same thing in the NFL and the Cowboys. It’s all about ratings.
Chad Jennings reports that Alan Horne is on his way to Scranton. He may start Friday night.
You know there is going to be a lot of movement as the Yankees search for bullpen arms. If Horne can string together some good games for Scranton, we may be able to add his name to the list of possible bullpen options.
It’s like Deja Vu with SJ44. He wanted to rebuild last year. He wanted to cut Giambi. He wanted to trade Cano. That didn’t turn out that great last year for him.
Its so apparent that you can hear their disdain as they are even discussing the bombers always some sort of sarcastic overlay everytime they say YANKEES it disgusts me their just sore about getting owned for nearly a century and now that theyve won there is a not so subtle sense of superiority
Horne isn’t a bullpen option, IMO. The Yankees don’t have a lot of quality starting depth, after Kennedy and Hughes went down, and White, Igawa and Marquez turned out to be pumpkins. They have two bullpen options in Cox and Robertson, and Cox for one has done absolutely nothing wrong. Robertson walked a lot of folks his first couple of weeks in Scranton, but has been lights out recently.
Horne was the EL pitcher of the year last year. You don’t turn a potential major league starter into a bullpen option just because.
Jerkface,
We had a discussion in the offseason in going after Cabrera. Most people didnt want to trade Cano for him. Even though Cabrera is argueably one of the top 5 greatest hitters in the league. Thats what i was referring to. Yes his defense sucks. But so does Manny’s and i dont think anyone would have made a big deal about it. When he was young.
sj44 actually crediting Chad?? I guess being called out bout stealing from him changes it up for sj
Randy:
What????????????
The stat I gave you is what Cano is batting when he makes contact with the first pitch and puts it into play. That’s a really good stat. If he puts the ball in play on the first pitch, he is an all star. And he has 363 PA in that situation.
The other stat you’re thinking of would be ‘After 0-1′
Which Cano hits 279 .296 .425 for his career.
I just don’t get your point, the stat is not deceptive or amusing.
It does matter CROOKLYN because part of broadcasting to a public audience is not being biased while they are so visibly biased that it makes me uncomfortable wtaching that isnt fair to viewers
jerkface I’m reading this and Robi has a 80.19 % O-Contact% how many of those are wasteds ABs..it’s a sensitive subject I love Robi too but his patience at the plate is horrible
Nobody said trade Cano NOW will. Read the posts.
In fact, I explicitly said you DON’T sell low.
I said its an option to explore when he gets it going. Probably in the off-season IF it can get you back some important parts needed to re-tool the team.
In terms of booing Cano, the fans didn’t do that last night but, they did something funnier and more dramatic.
They gave him a Bronx Cheer when he took the first pitch in his second AB last night. Even Kay, who is usually asleep at such things during the broadcast, picked up on it.
I thought that was pretty funny and pretty sharp of Yankee fans to pick up on his lack of patience at the plate and call him on it. lol
wasted*
Brandon: His patience is the same as it has been in every season. The problem is he is making better contact because he has improved as a baseball player. Unfortunately, this is affecting him because pitches he used to swing through are now being put into play weakly or popped up.
he needs to adjust, but to suggest that he all of a sudden got bad at baseball wouldn’t be correct
Cano is the least of their worries. He’s the 8th place hitter for christsakes. The problem is the crappy pitching all the way around. Would the pitching look better if the offense scored 10 runs a game? Sure. Still doesn’t make the pitching good.
When the yanks are on ESPN or even Fox for that Matter I’d rather listen to radio than those anti-yankee red sox smooch fests
Question to the all stars on this blog? I see Chase Wright is doing good this year. What are the chances of converting him into bullpen help? Or what do you think we can get for him in the market bening a lefty with a low era?
Mike,
Thanks for stalking me again. Always fun to know you are around.
I don’t steal anything from anyone. Then again, you know that Mike. Which is why you are just left to stalking someone on the internet.
What a sad and sorry life. Happy trolling.
I think Chase Wright is on the DL with a shoulder problem.
At least he was as of last week. Not sure if he has been activated yet.
he went from 67 to 80, that’s evidence of an increase of him trying to stretch the plate way too much.
So trading a 25 yr old all star is part of retooling the team? One of the few guys under 30 in this organization that can actually play/hit is a good thing, how? Why would you trade a young great hitter when thats the one thing your system doesn’t have in the pipeline for a few years? What will you get back? Supposedly, you already are deep in pitching or at least thats what the trades tell you. So you wouldn’t want that and no team trades young pitching anyway. It’s just a moot point because its far fetched.
You don’t trade just to trade especially young lefty hitters who have proven they can thrive in NY and came up thru the system. This is the exact thing that everyone rages about.
Brandon:
67 to 80% CONTACT percent though. He swings at the same amount of balls. He just makes more CONTACT.
he is not swinging at more. And you don’t know the distribution of balls that he is swinging at.
You can’t make a statement like that based off of contact percent.
if anything, you’d say he swung at pitches further out of the zone last season, which would account for why he missed so many of them!
“I’m saying that if you could get 2-3 players that you felt confident would make the overall team better, than I don’t believe trading Cano is so far fetched.”
This is a pretty lazy statement. Who? Give me a hypothetical example of 2-3 players that could be gotten for Cano, that would give the Yankees guaranteed production equivalent to a .300/.350/.470, plus defensive second baseman on a very cheap contract.
I agree Cano isn’t an untouchable right now. I like what someone said about complementary players, Cano is one of them. Maybe he turns in a breakout season and becomes a franchise player. Maybe he just continues his career as merely an excellent second baseman. Either way, he provides tremendous value. Would I trade him for the best player in the game, like what the Yankees did with Soriano? In a heartbeat. But for 2-3 imaginary lesser players that might be able to help the Yankees, maybe. That’s what you do with a player who has an albatross as a contract. That’s what non-contending, bottom-feeding for the next four years do with their non-franchise, expendable players. Guess what? Cano is on a good contract. The Yankees, as bad as they look right now, aren’t going to be bottom-feeders for the next four years. And furthermore, the Yankees have absolutely no one to replace Cano.
He’s not an untouchable in the sense that Joba is, but he’s as close to it as you’ll come.
“I think Chase Wright is on the DL with a shoulder problem.
At least he was as of last week. Not sure if he has been activated yet.”
Wasnt aware of that. What do you do with a guy like him that is doing well in the minors. But we all know is in back of the line when it comes to getting a chance to start in the bigs? I guess thats where im going with this.
just glad u finally got called out stealing from Chad. At least now u credit him sj.
jerkface here’s a showing stat
Vladamir Guerrero “The wildest swinger in the West”
66.82 % O-Contact
Robi Cano “The man w/ no plan”
80.19 % O-Contact
when Vlad is showing more patience than Robi it’s time to worry a bit
Who cares about contact percentages? It’s what kind of contact that is important and those numbers don’t give that.
Does he hit it hard? Is it the pitch that he wants? Did he drive it?
Or was it weak contact on pretty much a waste pitch.
Those percentage numbers are worthless.
brandon:
BRANDON. I hate you. You have to be doing this on purpose. I actually don’t hate you, but you’re once again using MISUSING A STAT to convey a point.
Robinson Cano vs Vlad
SWING % ON BALLS OUT OF ZONE
30% vs 45%
VLAD SWINGS AT MORE BALLS
VLAD HAS LESS PATIENCE
VLAD ISNT AS GOOD AT MAKING CONTACT AS CANO
SO HE HAS A LOWER CONTACT PERCENT
OH MY GOD
They should convert Horne to the pen after the gets a couple of starts in a AAA.
They should handle it similar to what they did with Joba last year.
Horne’s fastball will play well out of the pen. They’d have to see how his arm responds to that pattern of use.
But he’s the most talented pitcher they have in AAA. With Kennedy and Hughes and McCutchen they should have depth for the starting staff in the second half.
Of all those pitchers, Horne might be the best out of the pen.
Got called out by whom? You? A stalker?
I’ve never stolen anything from Chad.
In fact the only person who accuses me of it is you. A stalker on the internet.
Not exactly a bastion of credibility.
How exactly does one “steal” minor league game updates?
Last I checked, I do what I do everytime I’m not at a game. Put on the Gametracker and give folks updates.
That ain’t stealing son.
In your fantasy world it may be but, not in the real world where the rest of us operate.
I’m curious to see who gets the call in the 6-7-8 tonight after last nights disaster.
I give Bruney credit. I couuldn’t stand him last year, but he dropped that weight, decided against surgery so he could try and make a comeback at the end of the season. All shows he’s a pretty stand up guy even though he threw a fit when he was sent to the minors last year.
Kennedy on the other hand, I hope they leave him in Scranton for the year, let him build up his value and trade him in the off season.
jerkface calm down your right..jesus
but making contact w/ pitches out of the strike zone w/ a 16.1 % LD I wouldn’t call that a good thing for Robi. BTW Relax man.. SIKFGBRWFS !!!! (won’t help)
“All shows he’s a pretty stand up guy even though he threw a fit when he was sent to the minors last year.”
Yeah. If he can go to “throwing chairs and fits for being demoted anonymous” on his off time. Than im with you. The anger needs to be contolled. I mean look at Pavano. He has no problem being out. Youd almost think he’s happier that way. GREAT ATTITUDE TO HAVE!
“What????????????
The stat I gave you is what Cano is batting when he makes contact with the first pitch and puts it into play. That’s a really good stat. If he puts the ball in play on the first pitch, he is an all star. And he has 363 PA in that situation.
The other stat you’re thinking of would be ‘After 0-1′”
jerkface-
if a hitter swings at the first pitch, it’s either going to be put in play or not.
if it’s not put in play, he’s going to be 0-1.
so the stat for swinging on the first pitch should be a combination of hitting the ball on the first pitch and what he hits after he has 0-1.
what a hitter hits when he hits the first pitch is just part of the story. how many times does he create 0-1?
on an extreme level if the hitter was up 100 times and swung at the first pitch every time and hit the ball once and it was a hit, he’d be hitting 1.000 on balls hit. but the other 99 times he’d be 0-1 which is not a good hitter’s count.
so what i want to know is what cano hits when he swings at the first pitch?
It totally helps me relieve stress when I get into a discussion with you.
Dan Giese was optioned back to Scranton ????
What ??? and how many long relievers do we have that are better than him in the pen ???,,,hmmmm that would be NOBODY !!! Nice move, Morons….he pitched very well and just send him right back down…..DANG !
If Giese was optioned to AAA, who will shadow Joba in his next start? (he probably needs someone to shadow him for one or two more starts).
alright I’ll be back later. Jerkface… wusaaaaaaah
JRVJ, I mentioned it earlier but Joba should be at 80 pitches in his next outing. KC is atrocious. 80 pitches for Joba should net 6 innings for him. If not Britton and or Ohlendorf will pitch multiple innings.
Randy:
“on an extreme level if the hitter was up 100 times and swung at the first pitch every time and hit the ball once and it was a hit, he’d be hitting 1.000 on balls hit. but the other 99 times he’d be 0-1 which is not a good hitter’s count.”
But this isn’t what the stat measures.
Cano hits 1.000 on first pitch hits. DUH. But he hits .360 on balls put in play on the first pitch.
I understand the importance of the After 0-1 stat, but you can also look at 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 3-2 which are all possibilities. The aggregate numbers could be lowered by especially abysmal 0-2, and 1-2 numbers.
He went After 0-1 something like 800 times in his career but there is no stat to tell you how many times that count blew up to 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, etc.
You can’t look at his first pitch ball in play average and call it amusing, because you seem to have confused it with “First pitch batting average on balls that are HITS”, which is stupid.
No player is untouchable and I’d trade anyone in a trade that made the team better. That said, I clearly would disagree with SJ44 and others on what you’d have to get back to make the team better. I’d be surprised if in a few years Cano isn’t the best hitter on this team.
I just don’t get the SJ bashing on a personal level. If you disagree, fine. Type something reasonable and have at it. But in all honesty, would you read this blog as much without his posts?
That being said, I disagree with the ‘trade cano’ sentiment. Let’s say he ends the year hitting .310 and can bring back 3 solid pieces, which take $10 million to sign. That would be good, right?
I know I am opening myself up for a world of hurt by saying this, but what is being said about Cano now is what people said about Vlad Guerrero when he was young. If memory serves me right, he was more interested in showing off his cannon of an arm than hitting the cutoff guy, swung at everything, and struck out too much. A talented guy that needed maturing.
Sounds like Cano to me. I think this guy has the bat to be something special. Remember when Alex opted out, he was going to be out #5 hitter, and maybe the #3 at the end of the year? We were all optimistic then, but I think we need to give the guy a chance to get it going. Maybe Posada getting in his face after a sloppy game will help.
raymagnetic,
Wouldnt have been better to have him stay and demote pitchers that arent being used in any way(Britton or Duncan)? I agree with Don that he did well yesterday and its not like we have a surplus of long men.
here are the 3 important stats:
First pitch in play: .362 .362 .553
After 1-0: .299 .369 .478
After 0-1: .279 .296 .42
This makes up his entire career worth of plate appearances.
He goes After 1-0 equally as much as he goes After 0-1.
That combined with his first pitch hitting ability makes him a great player.
Please die all of you who are arguing this
S.o.s,
Giese wasn’t going to pitch for the next few days anyway so I think that’s part of what went into their thinking. Who knows however, Duncan might develop some kind of “injury” before Sunday thus allowing Giese to come back up before the 10 days.
Geise went back? Who’s coming up on Sunday?
i think i recall – and i absolutely could be wrong – sj44 calling for cano to be traded/sent down last season when he played poorly, but then recanting when the kid heated up. if memory serves, you’ve gone back and forth on the kid a couple of times so, while i agree with your opinion here and your points are COMPLETELY valid, it’s a little misleading to say, “felt the same way last year.” you did, sure, until you changed your mind. nothing wrong with that, but, in making a balanced argument, it might be worth noting that you were back on the cano bandwagon after the all-star break last year. then again, and i mean this sincerely, i could be, as clemens says, “misremembering.”
at any rate, i think sj44 is dead-on about cano. his laziness has been a criticism of fans and people inside the organization since he came up. used to be, if he had a bad day at the plate, you could count on an error or two in the field. that’s not happening on such a consistent bases – he’d be making two errors every night if it were – but, as you noted with good examples, the kid’s just plain lazy. giving away AB’s, sleepwalking in the field and on the basepaths, etc.
i certainly don’t think he should be untouchable. i don’t/didn’t feel that way about hughes and kennedy, either.
They won’t trade Cano. Why?? It makes absolutely no sense to trade a power hitting middle infielder signed to a good contract.
Considering the fact that while they have tons of pitching in the minors they got no hitting I wouldn’t think Cashmans first thought on improving the team is moving his 25yr old all star 2b.
Why option Dan Giese back to Scranton? Did the Yanks take notice of his relief appearance yesterday? The Yanks need a long reliever. Why DFA Hawkins or some other pitcher?
Also just for flippin fun here is A-rod
First pitch: .365 .384 .734
After 1-0: .324 .455 .626
After 0-1: 274 .325 .496
He has the same ratio of After 0-1 to After 1-0 as Cano.
Wow its like they are the same except A-rod is better at hitting for power because he is flippin A-ROD!!!!
SJ wanted Cano gone last year. He keeps preaching patience with the young pitching but doesn’t that work both ways? Aren’t you supposed to be patient with talented hitters like Robbie? And 2 bad months shouldn’t make you want to ship his butt out.
WTF? Why would they option Geise back to Scranton? He was the only one out of the whole bullpen that did his job and we need a long man for Joba’s pitch count limited starts….?
Who is taking his place? Kei Igawa? Is the Yankee front office on crack?
“Why option Dan Giese back to Scranton? Did the Yanks take notice of his relief appearance yesterday? The Yanks need a long reliever.”
Because Giese wouldn’t be able to pitch for a few days and this team needs able bodies don’t they?
Ahhh,the injury factor. Im there.
raymagnetic ®™
Off topic for a second. I just wanted to tell you that your logo is seriously a trade mark. Pete had me remove my crazy look when i re-vamped my name. You wouldnt happen to have naked photos of Pete would you?
Joba doesn’t need a long reliever for 80 pitches vs the Royals hopefully?
Maybe they can get a pitcher who needs TJ surgery, another pitcher who can’t throw strikes and a throw in for Cano like they got for Sheff.
The pen needs a long reliever — period. In case you haven’t noticed, the starting pitching has not been doing so well recently…
“No word on LaTroy Hawkins’ appeal of his suspension.”
Can we appeal to have his suspension extended? Ten games maybe? Would they give in to fifteen?
I wouldn’t be against trading Cano if the price was right. Nobody should ever be untouchable.
You could always check out Furcal on the free agent market and see if he’d play 2B.
“The Yanks need a long reliever. Why DFA Hawkins or some other pitcher?”
I agree. If they could cut Quantrill and Stanton(i believe) a few years ago. Why not find a taker or cut Hawkins and Farns?
Giese isn’t really a long reliever though, he is a starter? He certainly wouldn’t be able to pitch on back to back days, and possibly not in any kind of immediate order without rest. They certainly couldnt pitch him for a significant # of pitches like last night though, and expect him to be a long reliever.
To all who see an anti-Yankee/pro-Red Sox bias on ESPN :
I suffered through the 2003 ALCS, where Aaron Boone’s brother (Bret) was imported to serve as the (objective?)game analyst for the entire series. Even if the games were on Fox (not ESPN), you owe us til the end of time for that indignity. May Peter Gammons live (and analyze) forever, exacting revenge on the Evil Empire for the 2003 Boone Bias.
P.S. ESPN does indeed devote a LOT of airspace to the Sox and Yankees. I’m sure that the fans in KC, Milwaukee, etc. aren’t too upset over any alleged biases, though.
“Can we appeal to have his suspension extended? Ten games maybe? Would they give in to fifteen?”
If they plant some b-12. Maybe we can get 50 games out of it.
“Maybe they can get a pitcher who needs TJ surgery, another pitcher who can’t throw strikes and a throw in for Cano like they got for Sheff.”
Only when Cano turns 38, is an injury risk and is leaving via free agency and the team would get almost nothing for him because he was injured for so much of the year he wouldn’t necessarily be a type A player.
jerkface-
see why this amuses me.
tell me what cano’s average is when he swings at the first pitch?
wouldn’t it be the combination of his average when he hits the first pitch and his average after an 0-1 count?
and then it would be interesting to know what his average is when he doesn’t swing at the first pitch. that would be a combination of after 0-1 and after 1-0 counts.
I would have kept Giese and sent Duncan down. The guys is dead weight. I like him a lot, but he is doing nothing to help the team right now.
“Joba doesn’t need a long reliever for 80 pitches vs the Royals hopefully?”
Is it just me or does it seem like he has less control of his pitches this year? I know he was squeezed yesterday. But iv seen it on more than a couple occasions. It seemed like he was breezing through last year. Not the same this year.
Brian the Red Sox fan:
Yeah, but Boone had a horrible series. He was hitting .150 when he took Wakefield long that night.
Who could possibly see him being the hero of the series?
I remember the Fox ‘cam’ cutting to a shot of Bret standing after Aaron hit the HR, witha tear in his eye. Both Buck and McCarver were just staring at him…
“You could always check out Furcal on the free agent market and see if he’d play 2B.”
So pay a guy 5 years older 15 mill a yr to play a position hes never played. How is that the old Yankee way? Why go to all these 21 yr old pitchers if you are going to do things like that?
They will not trade Cano. Forget it. When he starts hitting which will be soon everyone will be back in the fold.
Randy:
There is no way to measure without going through a pitch by pitch database to figure this out.
After 0-1 includes first pitches taken for a strike. You can’t just combine them all!
You’d need to combine
After 1-0 and After 0-1 (No swing)
and then
First Pitch and After 0-1 (Foul / Miss)
I’d like a game tonight where the offense takes all the pressure off the rocky staff for a night. I’d like the offense to carry us for a few weeks here like they did last yr while the pitching got sorted out. This team wasn’t designed to play 3-2 games.
Brian,
I remember that. It reminds me of the nba playoffs. Im a Spurs fan and they had Brent Barry’s brother in the booth. It made me laugh when they asked for predictions. Never went against his brothers team. They should have a conflict of interest clause.
jerkface-
…so what does arod hit when he swings at the first pitch?
Just don’t engage them SJ. You’re above it, man. Let the trolls toil and troll!
June 4 and the ‘trade Cano’ folks are back out in force!
brian why don’t you leave the site and join russ on the sox sites…..
why would you want or need to post here??
don’t answer it to be honest I could care less again why the hell would someone want to post on a opposing teams site, I have no clue, maybe they need attention or a friend.
why did they send Giese down? They need a long man in the wosrt way…why not keep him and get rid of the bum Hawkins
Randy:
I already posted A-rod. He is the exact same as Cano but with slightly better average and power(because he is A-ROD!)
Here is my post:
“Also just for flippin fun here is A-rod
First pitch: .365 .384 .734
After 1-0: .324 .455 .626
After 0-1: 274 .325 .496
He has the same ratio of After 0-1 to After 1-0 PA’s as Cano.
Wow its like they are the same except A-rod is better at hitting for power because he is flippin A-ROD!!!!”
“wouldn’t it be the combination of his average when he hits the first pitch and his average after an 0-1 count?”
randy,
Wouldnt that be the second pitch? Who’s on first? Im getting confused. Forget it.
“So pay a guy 5 years older 15 mill a yr to play a position hes never played. How is that the old Yankee way? Why go to all these 21 yr old pitchers if you are going to do things like that?”
And depending what you get back for Cano you make 2 positions younger. If Cano is going to be a lazy player who gets off to a slow start every year and has to hit .400 for the second half just to get back up to .290-.300 then I’d say he’s the wrong player for this franchise.
We still don’t have a lead off hitter, Furcal solves that problem. If you can package Cano with some of those pitchers like Horne, Marquez, or Kennedy and get back a top 1B prospect and outfield prospect your team is immediately better.
Good teams shouldn’t be having tryouts in the pen in June.
BronxBomber – I’m just suggesting that Fox should never have hired the brother of a Yankee player to do analysis in the first place. There were a lot of players available if they felt the need to have an active player. To have a starting player’s brother do full-time commentary was a serious lapse in judgment (and an unnecessarily antagonistic gesture towards Sox fans).
Would you have liked it if a brother of a Sox player was given a full-time role in commenting on all 7 games? The only reason Brett was slightly muted was the very fact that his brother stunk for the whole series (until the fateful 12th, of course).
As you can tell, I’m still not over it. Thank goodness for psychotherapy.
stuart,
I agree about posting on the other teams blog. But Brian isnt a troll. He’s like Dennis(i think). Its o.k.
SoS – Good analogy (re: Brett Barry commenting during Spurs games). See …. I’m not crazy …. that is a REALLY antagonistic thing to do to the fans of the other team.
I feel better now.
After 0-1 includes first pitches taken for a strike. You can’t just combine them all!”
good point.
but there does exist a batting average for a player when he swings at the first pitch, but no one bothers to figure it out.
that was what amuses me.
It’s time to prove they’re something other than the relentlessly .500 team they have been so far. It was at this time last season they started their run. There’s a playoff spot out there waiting to be had, whether it’s the division or the wild card.
Well said Pete. Many of here are pining for something to celebrate. So far, Joba starting has been the only thing.
“As you can tell, I’m still not over it. Thank goodness for psychotherapy.”
I’m not over 2004. We’ve got scars on both sides.
“Good teams shouldn’t be having tryouts in the pen in June.”
Good teams should be having tryouts in the pen all season. With middle relievers, you ride the hot hand and then move on to the next one when the first one cools off. The parts are usually interchangable and none are good for very long.
Randy:
Cano hits: .362 .362 .553 .915 on the first pitch
Thats Cano’s batting average when he swings on the first pitch.
“Wouldnt that be the second pitch? Who’s on first? Im getting confused. Forget it.”
we’ll do it later another time. i think it’s one of those things that is so simple it’s confusing.
“I’m not over 2004. We’ve got scars on both sides.”
Can i add 2001? And to a lessor extreme,yesterday?
Doh I meant to have another stat line
hold on gotta find it again
They should add post editing, but I think the last time they added it it crashed the site
Losing streak goes to 4?
Watching these games has become an ordeal for me.
27/∞
“Randy:
Cano hits: .362 .362 .553 .915 on the first pitch
Thats Cano’s batting average when he swings on the first pitch.”
And here i am cussing at him on my screen when he swings at the first pitch. Man what your eyes make you think your watching. Thats why i enjoy coming in here. It makes me realize how blind i truely am.
Gammons also loves Mike Mussina, which I totally don’t get. Most overrated pitcher in the game. Maybe it’s the way he bends over when pitching from the stretch…
“Losing streak goes to 4?
Watching these games has become an ordeal for me.”
Well then maybe you should stop watching.
Well you quoted the wrong stat there. I thought I had his line when he swings but it was just his line from the first pitch this year
I think it is impossible to find a batting line on a player after swinging at pitch 1
Yeah, I definately see your point. Why not get someone thats not affiliated with any team in the playoffs?
Get a funny, loud athlete? Perhaps if the Angels miss the playoffs, Torii Hunter would make a great analyst, for example. Or the same can be said of Eric Byrnes, if Arizona is out.
I do see your point.
PS… With all the money he makes from ESPN, and all the books he’s written, can someone please tell Peter Gammons that yes, he is on national TV, and yes, he should get his teeth repaired. Mary mother of God… Just awful!
Someone get all the pitchFX data that has been collected and use it to get Cano’s first pitch and after swing avg
“Cano hits: .362 .362 .553 .915 on the first pitch
Thats Cano’s batting average when he swings on the first pitch.”
not the same thing.
sometimes he misses.
your number are when he hits the ball on the first pitch.
not when he swings at the first pitch.
I already posted a retraction, you’re off the ball
Julio Lugo is the worst SS in the AL
Now that ranks up there with the stupidest things I’ve read on this blog.
I found this to be very ironic….
*June 25, 2007*
‘Greetings from Gate 48′
By Peter Abraham
“But there are a few things the Yankees can – and should – do:
Trade Kyle Farnsworth: His display today should be the last straw. Yes, the defense was sloppy. But he’s been lousy all year. There are plenty of teams looking for relief help, so eat some money and unload this guy. TRUE TODAY
Disable Johnny Damon: Now he says he’s fine. Two days ago he was a wreck. This passed tiresome a week ago and is now tedious. Go to Tampa for two weeks to rest and come back after the All-Star break. KINDA TRUE
Call up Chris Britton: Brian Cashman claimed to like this guy when they traded for him, so give him a chance. I’d rather see him than watch Brian Bruney search endlessly for his release point. LOL
Obtain a first baseman: There has to be somebody out there who can play first, hit ninth and give you more than Miguel Cairo or Andy Phillips. Dangle Farnsworth, Bruney, Mike Myers, one of the AAA starters, etc. LOL
Consider a blockbuster: Contracts are such that most of the name players can’t be traded. But give it a shot. See if you can ship out Abreu, Mussina, Farnsworth or Damon. I’d even give some thought to trading Cano. He’s regressing at the plate but has value. Do something big to change the chemistry. TRUE
That’s all I have for ideas at the moment. I’ll try and check in later today.”
*****************************
I find the part Pete wrote about Cano to be very interesting. Cano started last year just as this year.
Ironic though. This team is very comparable to last year’s. Minus Torre and Clemens…
Thoughts?
WHY did they send Giese down!?!? That is CRAZY.
Is it me or are they making just really dumb moves. Well at least it’s not Britton. But comon Giese? The guy was pitching great. He’s a logical LONG MAN for the pen. LOGICAL!
Vladimir:
he threw too many pitches and his routine is still geared to being a starting pitcher, he would not have been available for 4 days
jennifer – Lugo is the worst shortstop in the AL, when you take defense into account as well.
Britton was probably in shock when he realized that they weren’t sending him down. He wouldn’t be surprised if he fainted.
Andrew
I didn’t mean to make it sound like that, I should have copied what he said. I was referring to his Mussina is the most overrated pitcher comment.
“Britton was probably in shock when he realized that they weren’t sending him down. He wouldn’t be surprised if he fainted.”
He was probably informed by the bus driver to get out.
I can’t watch the game tonight, but I’m going to be saying a prayer that we end this losing streak and play a good game. Somebody tell the players not to make any errors behind Mussina because he’s likely to self destruct!!
Oh yeah, also tell them to get some fracking hits with men in scoring position!!!!!
Damn two cheap hits.
Come on Mussina
oh Yay.
get to work bats
I hope this game doesn’t get ugly quick tonight…
Good everning folks!
Glad Moose got outta that jam!
GO YANKS!
what is that song jeter’s coming out to now?
Nice job by Moose in the 1st to get out of the inning.
Let’s go Yankees.
SI’s mock draft experts say this about the Yankees re: the draft tomorrow:
(mildly interesting)
“28. New York-AL
The Yankees are usually in the position to take players with signability problems who fall into their deep pockets. The only problem is that no such player exists here. So what do they do? They could make a total upside bet if a player like Hewitt is still available but the organization is lacking in advanced power hitters, and two players — Arizona State’s Ike Davis and Cal’s David Cooper — fit the bill perfectly. Most scouts give the slight edge to Davis, and the fact that his father Ron wore the pinstripes as a reliever in the late ’70s and early ’80s helps the cause. Going by the book here makes it even more likely that the Bombers will spend huge money next month on righty Micheal Inoa, the 16-year-old Dominican wunderkind who will likely command a record bonus for an international free agent.
Selection: Ike Davis, 1B, Arizona State”
Good Job, Mr. Moose
If you’re looking for a positive omen, the Moose candy bars that I ordered eons ago arrived this afternoon! I don’t see how we can lose.
And no, I haven’t tried one yet.
Who’s going to be the long man coming in today in the 4th inning?
You finally got the candy bars Nick? WooHoo!
Nick- Did I tell you where to order them from? Make sure to freeze them.
YanksAngel
June 4th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
what is that song jeter’s coming out to now?
It should be ‘Girls just wanna have fun’ by Cindy Lauper.
This team is playing like a bunch of girls in 8th grade.
(no offense to any of the lovely women that post in here… ie Rebecca, Yankees Chick, Jennifer, Mel, Trisha, etc.)
“They just wanna, they just wanna, they just wanna have fun!”
Selection: Ike Davis, 1B, Arizona State
That would be a great pick for the Yanks. The guy has a nice stroke, plays great defense – well excellent if compare to Giambi/Duncan/Betemit.
The other player that would be good Pete mentioned in his draft notes.
Jennifer — I saved a link to the site whenever it was discussed the first time on here a while ago. I’ll put one in the freezer and try it out later in the game.
Nick and Jennifer – what are the candy bars that you are talking about?
Yeah… Is there a link to those bars?
Also… Is there a link still (or are they still available) to the Yankees wines?
Fran- Moose bars.
I don’t know the score there, but I bet the Boston Sux are already leading by 3 runs.
c’mon ‘deki!
bronxbomber77
The wine was just released. I bought the Jorge Cabernet. Haven’t opened it yet.
Fran, it’s called the Moose Bar, it’s a candy bar made by a company in York, Pennsylvania, and the proceeds benefit Mike Mussina’s charitable foundtation. Check it out:
http://tinyurl.com/4vtzms
Sox Tampa 0-0 in 2nd
rrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiinnnnnnn in PA!!!!!!
Sweet…I haven’t missed too much of the game.
I am a bit surprised Giese got sent down…I can understand the logic behind it, though.
Sweeeeet! Thanks Nick!
It appears they can be bought by the case!
Thanks for the link.
Nick I noticed something about tinyurl. My zone alarm blocks it as spyware. Anyone else have this?
Guess what Casey Fossum’s era is
Mussina has never been more than an above average pitcher who can’t win the big one. And the way he bends over from the stretch is truly annoying. He should’ve stayed in Baltimore.
nice Hideki!
Lugo- You could not be more wrong.
Keep in mind that if you order them while the weather is hot and they have far to travel, the good folks at Wolfgang Candy might try to convince you to have them shipped by Air and packed in dry ice and the whole process might take ten million years.
But your mileage may vary.
And you should have stayed in your troll hole, Julio!
bronxbomber 77
My nephew works in a wine shop and he said the Yankee wines (Abreu & Posada) just came in. He’s going to put aside a couple of bottles for us.
You can google Jorge Posada wine (or Abreu wine) and various vendors will come up.
Night all! Go Yanks !
Thanks for the link Nick. I’ll definitely order some after the game is over.
Cano lolly-gagging it into 1st, dp. I’m surprised he’s even starting, I thought it was agreed that he would be traded. Seriously though, Cano can use a DL trip, let Gonzo play for two weeks.
Notice that thing that Overbay did with the ball after he first caught it. It was a nice play, but it’s one that a lot of first basemen are able to make regularly.
Robbie, Robbie, Robbie… Sigh.
Nick in SF
When I ordered them, they shipped it with an ice pack that was still cold when I received it. It was not dry ice. Maybe he did it because he knew me? Don’t know.
the anti cano lobby lead by sj just got some more fodder
I don’t buy the narrative that Cano is lazy in the field–if he was lazy in the field, then why is he on pace to match his fielding aggregates from last year, when he was one of the top three defensive 2nd basemen in all of baseball?
When I see Cano, I see someone who doesn’t appear to put a lot of effort on the defensive side of the game because he doesn’t need to: he makes it look easy. That’s not evidence of Cano’s laziness: it’s evidence of how talented he is. There’s a difference between playing lackadaisical because you don’t care, and appearing lackadaisical because you don’t need to display effort while you play. It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one nonetheless.
Now, that does not mean that Cano is or is not working as hard as he should be, on defense or offense–only the Yankees coaching staff can know that. But the narrative that Cano is a sub-par or lackadaisical defender is simply counter-factual, and not backed up by objective evidence.
Moose!
What did the Moose Bars taste like?
Jennifer, mine came with two ice packs, no longer cold. That was after I rejected the Air/dry ice option which would have made the shipping cost more than the bars. But mine ended up coming ground from Penn. to SF, a long trip. I’m guessing you’re a lot closer to York?
snickers bar w/o the caramel
Yeah I’m in Jersey. I think I practically got them over night.
Angel- it is chocolate covered peanut butter. They are very good.
Moose is looking good through 3.
Now the Yanks need to get him some runs.
Angel: they taste like victory!
Ok, I haven’t had one yet, I’m still eating my late lunch/early dinner. Mmmmmmm, La Taqueria.
All right we go this inning even if we start it with one out
hehe finally got a call…that strike was def. a ball
I can’t believe the Giese thing either. Shelley was the one to send down. Giese is the logical long man. IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!!!!!!
Haha Nick and Jennifer.
I’ll have to get my in-laws in Jersey to get some so I can bring them back with me when I come out there this summer.
I noticed Cashman said he didn’t get the Britton thing and so he wasn’t sent down…let’s make some noise about Giese…Pete, can you ring up the Yankees and ask them WHY THE HECK they sent down the LOGICAL LONG MAN?
Girardi said he wanted a long man and now he has one and sends him down. WHAT???????
I’ll bet the Moose bars taste just fine until the last couple of bites, then leave you with a sour aftertaste and still hungry.
Well, unless there’s an injury that occurs in the next few days, Giese can’t be brought up for 10 days, which means that someone else will probably be headed up from AAA to eat innings. I know the Yanks need pitchers right now since their starters haven’t really been doing the job and the pen is tired, but it was a surprising move to me.
I’m losing my faith in their ability to do the right thing. (the managers/coaches). Something is wrong here.
Is the draft going to be on ESPN tomorrow? And if so what time.
Their plan was to start Joba/Giese which makes perfect sense. Now it doesn’t make sense.
“They won championships with Luis Sojo, Mariano Duncan, Jose Vizcaino and Chuck Knoblauch (hitting Keith Olberman’s mom with throws no less) playing second base. Its not a need position.”
I think trading Cano is an awful idea for so many reasons.
But let’s start with this. Luis Sojo was never the full time starter. Duncan was the second baseman when they won one championship. Oh yeah, and he hit .340 that year. Jose Vizcaino was also never an everyday player. And Knoblauch, during the years they won, was a great leadoff hitter who played steady defense. I don’t think you throw some scrub out at second and “poof” championships appear on your doorstep.
Back to the idea of trading Cano.
This is an old team. Cano is 25 years old and hit .342 in 2006 and .308 in 2007. Ok so he usually gets off to a slow start… so do lots of major league players.
I don’t think he’s lazy or doesn’t hustle. When he hits those opposite field doubles and just flicks his wrist “effortlessly” people don’t call him lazy. When he makes difficult plays in the field look routine people don’t complain about his lack of hustle. Maybe his mind drifts every now and then. Maybe he’s not as emotional on the field as you would like. He’s laid back, that’s his nature. Would you rather he break his bat over his knee when he strikes out? Would that make you think he was trying harder?
He plays a premium position. This has already been discussed. Besides Utley, there is no one I’d rather have.
He doesn’t need to be a “cornerstone” of the franchise. He can bat 6th or 7th, stay in the background of Jeter, A Rod, and whoever else. That’s better for him.
He’s also under control for 3 more years at a reasonable contract. The contract is still good even if he hits .270.
Some would argue that is a good reason to trade him. Young. Reasonable contract. Can get value. I say so what? That makes me want to trade him LESS not more.
So let’s review here. Lifetime .300 hitter. 2nd baseman. 25 years old. Under contract until 2011 at a good price. Plays better than average defense. Possible greatness.
Sounds like the perfect guy to unload to me.
Jeter for GIDP….
woo hoo! speedy molina!
Really nice hit and run by Damon. Now Derek needs to get the run in.
Yeah, the first couple of rounds are going to be on ESPN. I think the mock draft for the Negro Leagues will be on before that. I think the official draft starts at 11 am.
Nice hit by Jeter to give a lead and grab a milestone.
Nice Jeter
Who is that guy Jeter just passed Ive never heard of him
That’s a lotta hits!!!!
And we lead 1-0!
Go Yanks!!!!
I guess the Yanks figure that Joba will be more economical…and he gets 15 pitches more or so. Unfortunately, I think that means that they might run Ohlendorf out as a long man again. He’s got good stuff, but they’re ruining him by putting him in mop-up duty.
I feel like this team takes turns when it comes to slumps. How its Boddys turn.
Congrats Jeter!
“Their plan was to start Joba/Giese which makes perfect sense.”
What would have made more sense is if they finished streching Joba out in the minors…
He started to turn it around when I started calling him Captain stinker
Can’t we stay out of the DP?
Would it kill Abreu to hit a flyball there?
Ive seen this before the Yanks get a run and give it right back
Great moment for Jeter there. It brought a tear to my eye watching the crowd beg him to acknowledge them. Love the guy!
Has Mussina ever retired a batter using less then 10 pitches? I mean recently not 10 years ago…It is soo hard to watch him pitch these days..Nibbling..and more nibbling…
Dynasty, Joba’s 2.1 innings yesterday was probably still better than what they would have gotten with No-Kei Igawa.
I wonder which team GiDP more, the Yanks or the Sux
Nice pitch by Mussina.
60 pitches with 1 more out to go in the 4th is not terrible
Milestone night? Congrats to the Moose on the K.
Nick in SF-but what if the Yankees call up Igawa to relieve Joba since they won’t be able to call up Giese this time? That’s got me a bit worried…
captain. Must have missed the first inning. 7 pitches.
nice work by mussina
Mussina looking good. Strands the lead-off double.
“Has Mussina ever retired a batter using less then 10 pitches? I mean recently not 10 years ago…It is soo hard to watch him pitch these days..Nibbling..and more nibbling…”
So he just put the fastball down the heart of the plate at 86 mph? You want him to put it on a tee?
Steph, that would be a troubling development indeed! I think it won’t happen.
Nick,
But why not let him build up his pitch count in the minors so the media couldn’t dissect these “pseudo” starts…
It’s not really fair to him or the team in my opinion…
Start somebody who you think will give you 5 or 6 innings at least…
When his pitch count is up to where it should be, then let him make a start up here…
Damn you Arod
I think that without Giese, Joba’s starts are in trouble. The Joba/Giese combo would be a winning one. Without Giese it’s sucky bullpen time. It’s like they’re trying to make Joba fail.
Yeah, that’s why I assume they’re going to put Ollie in for long relief…or maybe Britton will get his very rare appearance.
Moose is dealing!
Moose has been a pleasant surprise this season.
Hope he keeps it up…
er…..that was with regards to pitching well..
A blast from Betemit!!!!!
Toldya we needed to keep Betemit. And nobody listened…
Hey rah rah team!
GO YANKEES!!!
…Betemit shows why he should hit lefty all the time. 2-0 Yanks!
Wilson!!!
Dynasty, I have no idea whether the transition is being handled the best way. I think there’s a much better chance that Joba would have been sent down for a couple of transitional starts if Hughes and/or Kennedy was still up and producing, but the loss of both of them the lack of a better option has driven the methodology. Just my guess.
Quick, trade Betemit while his value is up!!!!
Unless he’s Cano’s good luck charm. I don’t know.
Now they’re starting t get to him
I love how they play the Pearl Jam song Better Man when Wilson comes to the plate just because it sounds like they are saying Betemit…
Way to go Wilson.
Wow!
Working counts?
Robbie spits at your stinking counts!
That sound you heard was not the crack of the bat… It was Duncan packing his bags for SWB…
Did Cano just swing at a first pitch??
GET ON HIM, KAY!
Dont ya know its Robby Cano
Wow Betemit can hit!! Also Cano what did they bring the candy back to the club house? They better get the ball back for Cano to keep..
Walks Molina again. Let’s go Melky.
Hi Trisha.
Melky!!!!!
Nice time for Tampa Bay to turn into a minor league team.
Oh, I forgot to mention, I also had a pack of Moose bars shipped to Cano, they must have arrived today. I had the carton labeled “medicinal supplements” to get by the candy cops.
Melky baby!
I just looked at espn.com for tomorrows tv schedule and they dont have them showing the draft. But they had it last year didnt they?
Good hustle by the runners! And I’ll take another run…a 2-out rally? I like.
Now let’s get a bunch more so we can feel comfortable going to our Joba-less pen!!!!!
RISP w/ 2 out hit!
La Leche delivers!
Waldman just said “maybe he shouldn’t throw that pitch again”
That, my friends, is ANALYSIS
Hey Fran!
Busy time at work so I end up catching some of the game on the radio. Moose sure sounds like he’s been dealing!
I can’t believe I’m typing this, but great base running for Molina, not 2nd and 3rd
This is the first time the MLB draft has been broadcast. Oh! Did I give you the time in PT? Sorry…if it’s going to be on at 11 my time, it’d be 2 PM ET.
*that should be now instead of not*
Baseball Draft is on ESPN2 starting at 2pm
ESPN-2 will cover the draft tomorrow afternoon at 2:00.
k thanks
This team [Yanks] just not able to get the big blow
It was on ESPN last year – it was actually a pretty boring watch b/c it gets really obscure, really fast.
Not even a Mel Kiper of baseball can talk about Joe Blow from Egypt HS and make it too intriguing.
So how many innings are you gonna give us tonight Moose?
7 would be great!
Go Yanks!!!!
Now Mr. Moose gives back at least 2
Without Mussina, the Yanks would be a sub-.500 team for sure.
Moose is dealing… this is fun to watch.
It never fails..Yanks are winning and the rains keep falling..watch..they’ll have to go into a rain delay and lose the momentum
Trisha – Moose is looking really good. What a turn around by him this season. Want him to get though this 1/2 inning to make the game official. Don’t know which way the rain is moving, but I live about 10 miles from the stadium and it is raining.
moose is pitching his A$$ off tonight!!!!!
Holy Batman Mussina. We love you
That was a seriously nice strike 3 pitch there.
Nick,
Baseball is a business. The Yankees started Joba on a Tuesday night in the Bronx because it made them a ton of money.
If you start Dan Giese and send Joba to AAA, who is going to buy a Dan Giese shirt.
official game!
Moose is soooo hot today.
Flashes of his old self.
LOVE IT
Moose’s pitches look very crisp tonight. I love watching him in vintage form.
25 miles from stadium and it is not raining
Moose is looking great. Who would think that right now he is the ace of the staff.
Angel he has had a few of those tonight…beautiful pitch
anyone know how McCutchen is pitching in AAA tonight??
Hey Miggs!
It really is a delight to watch Moose pitching the way we know he can pitch.
Miggs, if you know the answer to this. Michael Kay is driving me crazy with his “official game” stuff. Wasn’t the definition of official game changed within the last two years and it is no longer the bottom of the 5th inning that makes it official? I am hazy on the exact ruling but I thought the 5th inning rule has gone the way of the dinosaur.
Must win today or get swept…with Igawang pitching tomorrow
Go Yanks – where are you? I am in Queens(south of the stadium)and it is raining here.
Sawyer: No wonder I haven’t been able to find a Dan Giese bobblehead.
Great job on the Lost season finale, by the way!
Is Bruney done for the season? Albie? What is going on with Sanchez?
Wouldn’t it be funny if the 8th inning person ended up being Chris Britton…
So we definitely need our starters to go deep into games.
Fran, I am in Tarrytown, bout 15 miles north of the stadium…no rain here yet
North Jersey
McCutchen :
6 IP 10 Hits 4 Runs 3 ER 1BB 5K 2HR
Not that great.
A Rod is a machine.
i can thank hank steinbrenner’s pitching coach experience of recommending moose “pitch more like jamie moyer” to the rebirth of mike mussina.
Albie is out indefinitely, Bruney elected to not have the surgery that would end his season, but he’s going to most likely be out that long anyway (absolute earliest he returns is late August), and Sanchez is just beginning to throw off the mound, I think. He might be a September call-up, but I don’t see him in the Bronx before then.
Yeah, he has Sara. I’m happy to see him doing well.
Thanks Steph. When I was listening on the radio Sterling was saying that Hughes could be a great addition to the pen when he comes back.
Thanks Miggs
could’ve been better…. could’ve been worse
I knew they should have traded Betemit when his stock was high, now they have to wait for the next homer….
How does this sound for a September rotation:
Wang, Pettite, Moose, Joba, Hughes, Pavano?
I hope no one just ate, I should have provided a warning. Sorry.
Trisha, if moose keeps pitching like this, Joba continues to improve and Rasner stays solid there are no guarantees for Huges or Kennedy. Maybe the should be in the bullpen..alot of starting pitchers started their careers in that role
Mussina for comeback player of the year? The guy has a sub 4 era after losing his rotation spot last season…if he keeps this up I think he deserves it
If the state of the rotation is alright when Hughes is ready to come back, it’d be interesting to see if he does get put in the pen to be stretched out a bit to go back into the rotation. However, if the rotation is in trouble and needs another starter, Hughes might slot back in. He could turn into a long reliever while he’s coming back, though…
A Pavano in the rotation? Girardi’s finger would break by simply writing his name into a line-up card. Best to keep him far, far away.
Nick – Pavano? What was in those Moose bars?
“How does this sound for a September rotation:
Wang, Pettite, Moose, Joba, Hughes, Pavano?”
for those that didn’t already lose their dinner, that would mean maybe pavano could close out yankee stadium.
In a few days it will be a month that Jonathan Albaladejo has been out injured, have they announced any timeline for him??
Can anyone fill in any details on rehab or surgery?
Pavano could close out Yankee Stadium? I think Yankee Stadium itself would fall down in shock if he returned to pitch for them in September.
Way to go Mussinnaaa!!!!!
Sara, that’s why Sterling said he thought Hughes would be good in the pen. I think he and Waldman pretty much think that Kennedy will be sent back to AAA when he is ready to come back.
Albie is out indefinitely with the muscle strain. They haven’t set a timetable for his return. He hasn’t had surgery.
Any news on Hughes?
Sara – I think that you’re right. I don’t think that Hughes or Kennedy is guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Could be the bullpen or even SWB.
“Nick – Pavano? What was in those Moose bars?”
Lucy in the Sky w/ Diamonds!
Nick in SF
Did you have to say the P word? I started coughing the minute I read it. He is done with the NYY.
Hughes is waiting to get another x-ray done on his ribs. The last one showed a hot spot, so he hasn’t been cleared to do physical activities.
100% chance that Torre would take moose out right here…. I think he can get this out and go the 7th
that last pitch looked like a strike
we all need to boo farnsworth out of the stadium when he comes in the 8th. I cant stand his antics or his lack of control or his non-riverian mentality.
I’m trying to gauge the mood of the board, what I think I’m hearing is that folks aren’t looking for P*v*n* to take on Boston for all the marbles on Sept. 28 at Fenway. Fair enough.
Also, I didn’t think this up myself, the bobbleheads started to talk to me….
They’re not giving Moose anything….
That pitch was a strike earlier this inning!
Moose got jobbed!
If the Yanks had to rely on Pavano to get them into the playoffs on the last day of the season, you’d knock everyone off their feet. I definitely wouldn’t feel confidence in hearing that.
Darn it
I think I have a slight man-crush on Mussina right now.
I actually stood up and clapped when he struck out Scutaro.
His pitches are darting all over the place. That curve is devastating tonight. And that was strike 3 on Rios. Now this is extending him, he may be at 100 pitches after this inning. I hope Girardi leaves him in.
Well now he IS at 100 pitches. He might be done after this batter.
I can’t type fast enough… double in the gap. Oh well.
Sheesh, some of those pitches were close, especially on 0-2 counts..
moose got robbed of 2 strike outs in the sixth inning.
what a shame
that run should not have happeed. He had strike 3 on the 5th pitch
what the hell happened to the strike zone
The inning should have been over. Now Buckner changes the strike zone!
Tie game?
ohh cr@pppp, don’t lose it now Mr. Moose!
MOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!
Moose was able to work out of it, but the ump was somewhere else that inning. He clearly wasn’t remembering his K-zone.
That CB Buckner is a real pill. Cost Moose a run.
Hope Moose can come back for the 7th and then Mo for 2 innings, please?!
If Pavano could come back and pitch 8 games and get a few wins it could prove to be pretty big. the guy isn’t a bad pitcher..just a total head case
The floating zone cost Moose about 10 pitches there
Miggs, lol at the man crush.
I was pretty impressed by Moose’s backdoor 2 seamer strike outs tonight. They were so sharp and accurate.
Only if Wang can effectively use the same pitch to the same location….oh well
great job by moose tonight
I can take one run six innings every night
6 innings of work allowing only 1 run…
Not bad, Moose!
Pavano closing out Yankee Stadium is at the same time one of the funniest and most absurd things I have ever heard.
The stadium will go nuts if Posada gets a pinch hit appearance tonight
ANOTHER inside-the-park double by speedy Molina!
woohoo, Molina! another double…
Molina = doubles king
There should be a filter here for the name P*v*n*
It’s a curse
Get to work bats
god the Yanks better score another 10 runs knowing farnsworth is going to be coming into the game!
If you believe in the power of a contract year, Pavano could provide some good innings.
Molina – the King of Two-Baggers – strikes again!
You dipping into the paint thinner again Nick in SF?
Molina, the double machine
Miggs..Pavano pitched opening day last year..who would have ever thought that would have happend! why not have him close out the stadium..it would be the icing on the cake for this wonderful season!!!
I believe in the power of a contract year, but I also believe in the history of a guy who must have an MRI tube named after him.
I’d rather have the Stadium closed out by a guy who actually had some pride in wearing the pinstripes…someone who took the ball every fifth day. Pavano ain’t one of them.
Damon for Mayor !!
Yes!!!! We need all the insurance we can get!!!!
GO YANKS!!!!
Insurance runs are excellent.
Look at Molina motor home!
Or maybe he’s just shaped like a motor home.
Either way, nice!
TKinDC, no paint thinner, but I did just have my first Moose Bar bite to celebrate the fine outing (thus far?) and then popped it into the freezer. Not bad.
This game blog just isn’t the same without the hate-filled personal attacks between bloggers.
And by not the same, I mean much better.
A Mussina win tonight would put him on pace to go apx.
23 – 10
WHATS THE TALK ABOUT PAVANO..IS HE ACTUALLY REHABING AND COMING BACK TO THE MAJOR? HOW ABOUT HIM AS A SET UP MEN ?
Cano is by FAR my favorite position player on the team, and I would HATE it if he were traded.
SJ,
Take a look at Utley’s stats when he was a 24-25 year old, and then look at Cano’s. They are not that far apart. Utley is currently in his prime, while Cano is still working towards his ceiling, which is why they might look far apart. I strongly believe that in the next few years, Cano might become the best 2B in the game.
will the bulpen hold for 2 innings until Mo?
CB Buckner is routinely voted by the players as one of the worst ball/strike umpires in the game.
The two best? Ed Rapuano and Tim McClelland.
Unfortunately for Moose, CB lived up to his rep that half inning.
I’d like to know where Pavano is rehabbing. I don’t know if its in Tampa. if it is, he’s a ghost because I don’t know anybody that has seen him rehabbing around the team.
He may be doing it but, if he is, its in hiding.
Trading cano now would be insane…it would be selling low. He’s so much better than how he’s producing right now and that big contract might scare some teams away
TKinDC I was just going to say how enjoyable it has been on the blog here tonight.
By the way, what part of DC, I went to Georgetown and lived on 33rd and Prospect one block up from M street.
Come on Ohlendorf. Not nice to make my BP go up at such a young age
Pavano will not be back this year. He was a ritualistic sacrifice to take the curse off Serrano’s bat.
they should have left moose in.
C’mon Bullpen!!!!!! C’mon!!!!!
Please Ollie…one good inning would do.
ohlendorf in just in time to throw away the game
Nice play Betemit!
Everytime the BP door swings open & “the Sandman” ain’t playing I get very scared…
*fingers crossed* the BP better not blow this.
The mood on the blog is cheery because the Yankees are winning, getting key hits and Moose did a great job.
who is talking about trading Cano?
M&MD?
Kyle – that’s actually not a bad idea…. if he can do it, putting him in the pen for a month or two wouldn’t be a terrible idea
by if he can do it I mean get lose/pitch on consecutive days
by a month or two I mean however long it takes before he gets hurt
Betemit has made a number of awkward plays at first tonight. He’s getting it done, but he doesn’t look too comfortable.
what the hell happend to the strike zone?????????????
miggs –
I live just outside DC in Crystal City, VA – just across the 14th St. bridge near the Pentagon.
“TKinVA” just didn’t seem to have the same ring to it
So I guess Farnsworth will get the 8th thats not good
It would be better if they just spared us stats like those…
is olendorf seriously growing a mustache??? so sad
That’s it! One more!
Good evening folks. My wife was out tonight enjoying the evening with friends so I had to watch the kiddies. But it’s good to see the Yanks winning. They seem to be doing well tonight. Moose did a great job. Go Yanks!
It was my understanding that the team doesn’t want Pavano rehabbing in Tampa. I believe he is rehabbing at home. I believe Pete even mentioned that they don’t want him visiting the club when they play the Rays in Tampa like people on the dl normally do.
Good job Mr. Mike Mussina! Best of luck for a all-star appearance.
1 more dude
TKinVA, my cousin lives pretty close to you, in Arlington pretty close to that big Masonic temple. I was just there in April!
Yessssss!
Hopefully, tonight is the start of the “No More Excuses” NY Yankee 2008 Tour.
Or maybe I meant Alexandria.
Hey TK – did you enjoy that torrental downpour/tornado this evening. I know I had a “fun” time driving home through it. For a while there, it looked like I was literally driving through the movie “Twister”. Freaked me out.
6 outs to go. Really only 3 because Mo will come in for the last 3.
Betemit’s LD % went from 32 to 29.6 % before tonight, I wonder if this guy’s contact is for real this season.
it’s mustache fever in the Bronx
Maybe it’s the glasses.
Whew!
Get another run or two now
I think Pavano is rehabbing in Tampa, but he didn’t visit the club when they were down there playing the Rays like some of their other rehabbers did (I remember A-Rod and Posada visited). I can’t imagine he’d be welcomed in for a visit. When a reporter asked him about it, he said there was “no way” he’d go over there.
ohlendorf’s sinking fastball looks more like a meatball fastball
through 6 innings:
yankees tonight are 3-4 when swinging at and putting a first pitch in play.
… and 5-8 in at bats when swinging at the first pitch.
last night:
1-4 when swinging at and putting first pitch in play.
… and 1-9 in at bats when swinging at the first pitch.
Yeah Nick – it is in Alexandria. Cool spot.
I noticed your post about being in VA. You should have dropped off the Moose Bars!
sunny –
I’m not kidding – my folks live in the area too and lightning struck their house. It blew out an electric socket outside their garage and knocked a brick out of place (!)
Someone upstairs had a bad day!
i must be totally out of it..but what is with the Moose Bars?? is that a real thing?
Micheal Kay has to be crazy to expect Alex to do what he did last season
I’ll tell you what, TK, if Moose makes the All-Star team, I will buy a case of Moose Bars for sure and I’ll probably ship them to my cousin, I’ll be out there in July en route to Ocean City.
OK, who will agree with me that tonight starts a winning streak of AT LEAST 7 games ????
anyone else having trouble with MLB.TV right now?
sara yes. I bought and split a carton with a friend.
Will Joe Girardi allow us to enjoy said Moose Bars?
tk not too sure about that.
I’m not having trouble with MLB.tv right now…but that’s because I had to switch from the 1.2 feed to 800k. 1.2 was behind on the sound and kept shutting down.
No candy-even for the fans..
Darn MLB.tv- Mine just went out too. Still waiting to see a Yankee win till another night? This stinks.
Sara: yes, it’s a real thing, it’s a candy bar that supports Mussina’s charitable foundation. Info on it here:
http://tinyurl.com/4vtzms
TK – I’m telling you – it was a crazy ride home… cars parked in the middle of the road just so they could fit under a bridge. Sorry to hear about your folks’ place. Glad to hear that they at least made it through unharmed.
yay Hideki
So nice to see production from the “spare parts.”
jennifer..what is in them? are they good?
I have trouble with MLB.TV as well now.
They shoulda IBB Matsui again.
krytonite for Bet the right side
What feed are you guys using? I’m using 800k and not having trouble.
But I’m glad they didn’t
i just downloaded mlb.tv and it is currently unavailable. not sure i will even wait for my 5 day trial to end….remove it now.
can someone tell me the score.
sara peanut butter. Yes they are good. I think it is 30 to a case and 30 bucks. Which is pretty reasonable.
something is going on with the MLB site…it isn’t working
sunny –
You’d think in the Capital of the Free World they could figure out a way to build roads that don’t flood in a 15 minute downpour.
Cool to hear you are in the area too – MD, VA, or DC?
It’s 5-1 Yanks going into the 8th.
5-1 yanks
Good pitching…Clutch hitting…are these the Yanks of ’08?
Hell, I’m just gonna enjoy a well played game…
Here we go. Krazy Kyle time
Yeah, mine kept shutting down too, but now I can’t get back on
Kyle time. He does have a nice 4 run cushion.
Live in MD, Work in VA. Fun fun commute for me.
not.
Fasten your seat belts, it’s happy time!
It’s Pepto-Man!
Benitez sighting. That has to make up for the uncomfortable Kyle feelings. With a 4 run lead tonight, I sorta want him to give up a run so it’s a save situation for Mo.
2 more Krazy. Come on
Mussina pitched well tonight.
Still not HOF worthy, IMO.
Mo is praying
1 more Farns. You can do this
“He may be doing it but, if he is, its in hiding.”
That wouldn’t surprise me. He’d only be rehabbing in the same manner that he’s pitched for the Yankees for the the last three years – in stealth mode.
Man – I take a quick pit stop and come back to find farns got through it undamaged. I guess someone upstairs owes me a favor for making me drive through a tornado today.
1-2-3 8th inning…who knew?
Kyle Farnsworth: the other white meat.
Farns’s angel shows up…. The devil takes a day off.
We found the SECRET…Krazy Kyle is CLUTCH…when it’s NOT a hold / save situation.
Farnsworth is great in a 4 run game. These types of games are how he keeps his ERA below 7.
kyle is a different pitcher with at least a 3 run lead
Pete’s post re: Moose’s HOF consideration is interesting.
I’ve never seen Moose as a HOF pitcher.
He’s never won a Cy Young or 20 games and hasn’t been all that great in the post-season. The usual benchmarks for HOF consideration.
However, I do think the era in which he has pitched now has to play a role in his consideration for the Hall.
Perhaps he didn’t get to 20 or win a Cy Young because guys who juiced did.
He also had to pitch to juiced hitters.
I’m not a big drug guy. I used to see a lot of stuff at gym I used to work out at years ago (from body builders, not baseball players) but, I never even asked about it. Never interested me.
After talking to several former and current major league players, I’m amazed at just how widespread PED usage was in the game. Blew me away.
I think if Moose can get to 265-270 wins, I that could get him into the HOF if the writers are being intellectually honest.
If you are a HOF voter and you rail against PED usage, then its only fair to reward the guys in the era who pitched very well and don’t have a sniff of PED usage on their resume’s.
Did we just witness a miracle?
That’s it Kyle!
Go Yanks!
Julio Lugo,
would 300 wins push Moose into the HOF, in your opinion?
if he can stay healthy for a few more seasons, he could get close.
Dynasty, you can come out from under your bed now! Top of the 8th inning over!
Don’t get lulled by Farnsy’s 1-2-3 inning tonight, give him a 1 run or tie situation and he’ll show why he has a 5+ ERA in the 8th.
Finally got back on. I missed Kyle’s entire inning, but maybe that’s a good thing. He makes me so nervous lately
I don’t think 275 wins gets Moose in.
He needs the magic # (300). Voters won’t see him as a dominant pitcher at any point in his career. Consistently very good. Never great.
Of course I’d love to see him make it.
man Al is this close from punching Micheal. This close.
“After talking to several former and current major league players, I’m amazed at just how widespread PED usage was in the game. Blew me away.”
SJ – did you get a sense of the percentage of users from those conversations?
I think Moose is about as tough a case as there is. If he had just one ring I think it would help immensely.
Moose: should be strongly considered for HOF, never a 20 game winner but 19 twice and 18 three times. He also lost his 20th by way of Benitez one year on the last game of the season.
Also, Love Moose packing on the wins, but at what point does he work himself into another contract with the Yanks, even if it is one year? That would not be good.
Pete should have a HOF vote by the time Moose comes up for consideration. He could spearhead the campaign for him.
Moose also is seen as one of the high priced FA’s that came to the Yankees that never won: Giambi, Sheff, Moose, these guys were supposed to keep the dynasty going, not kill it
And that is why Joe G will continue to trust Kyle in the 8th.
Crazy thing ain’t it?
Yeah! Where are are all you people who doubted Kyle now!!!
Ok. That was a joke. It’s just that every time Kyle doesn’t give up a run someone posts that.
We all doubt Kyle as anyone who is filled with reason and logic should. But as for tonight, thanks for not screwing up this time, Kyle. Good on ya!
300 wins=auto to the Hall…unless you are Roger Clemens. We’ll have to see what happens with him. With less than 300, nothing is guaranteed. Look at Jim Kaat.
It’s going to be a very interesting conversation when Moose turns up on the ballot. He has a shot at 20 this year, has a nice ERA, and he pitched through the steroid era. I wouldn’t imagine him getting in on the first ballot, but he should get enough of the votes to stick around for a few years while other writers consider.
If Don Sutton can get into the HOF, Moose certainly should. Sutton never won 20 and he pitched in a juiceless NL.
How amazing would it be if this was the year that Moose got 20 wins. That and/or a title this year would be a big boost.
so who do you guys want as the 1st rd. pick tomorrow ?
Moose has consistently been a 15 game winner every season he’s been with the yanks… missing out on the 20 mark by a couple of games several times. Including that awesome one-strike-away no-hitter against Bahston. It’s a toss up to me. He’s been remarkably consistent in a drug filler era. I guess you gotta weigh all the considerations.
Sutton also pitched with illegal pitches, had a tack in his glove to deface the ball, etc. However, he had 324 career wins. That would get you in at any era unless you were a steroid user.
Breaks my heart to see the Rays taking the pipe…
rconn –
It is like a waiter bringing food to your table and looking for congratulations for not dropping a hot bowl of soup in your lap.
It is his job not to give up runs!
/end of rant, stupid analogy at no extra charge
TK,
The players believed 70-80% of the guys tried something and at least 30-400% of those guys (in his opinion) were serial users.
That’s a lot of guys.
He didn’t give me names or any stuff like that. But, he knew a lot of guys and he knew what they were taking, why, and how they cycled during the season.
It was quite a chemistry lesson for me.
I look at Moose, and I’m not his biggest fan, and ask, “Was he a better pitcher than Phil Niekro”? I think the answer is yes.
Phil got 300 wins and 3,000 K’s because he stuck around forever. He never won a WS or Cy Young.
How about Don Sutton? I think Moose was better than Sutton, even though Sutton got 300 wins.
IIRC, Sutton has no rings and no Cy Young’s.
Its going to be a tough call with Moose if the voters factor in the era in which he pitched.
Oh, and Sutton did win 20 games once.
f you have to debate if a player gets into the hall than he isn’t going to get in. Remember only the greatest of the greats should get into the HOA
Mo is just a stud
CB Buckner love his called 3rd strike calls
Mo is so beautiful to watch
only 1/3 of the season gone and Moose already has 9 wins. This really could be his first 20 win year
oooh gonna get this done just in time for UFC!! haha
I would put Moose in just for that relief appearance in 2003 vs. Boston when he came in with the bases loaded, none out and got out of it with no runs allowed. I think that was game 7, right? The Aaron Boone game? Thinking about it makes me misty-eyed, just like almost every Mo appearance does too.
After tonight Moose will be 41 wins away from 300. He’s never won less than 11 games in a season. He’s already at 9 on this season. Assuming his body doesn’t completely break down I don’t see why he couldn’t get to 300. He can always play in a pitchers park ala Maddox in SD. Also considering the lower mound, smaller parks, juiced up hitters, and tighter wound balls I think Moose should get a lot of consideration even if he doesn’t get 300 wins.
The Bullpen finally showed up! Now finish this Mo
Moose for 20.
Mo for Cy.
27 for team.
one more pitch baby
Moose will end up winning about 270+ games in the biggest offensive output in baseball history. In the juiced up age. In the AL. In the AL East no less.
He has a decent playoff resume and if the only bad mark is no 20 win season (which could end this year and who would have thought) that is a great and possible HOF career.
He’ll certainly get a lot of support being a winning pitcher in this Era.
But I don’t see how he gets in if Blyleven keeps getting denied.
Joe m-
What are you talking about? People debated for YEARS if Goose would get in. He made it. Many other cases are debated. Only the greatest SHOULD get into the Hall, but there are obvious cases of people being in the Hall when they shouldn’t be. Bill Mazeroski, anyone?
Scorpio
June 4th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Moose for 20.
Mo for Cy.
27 for team.
Saying of the year!
GREAT GAME YANKS
Mo!!!!!!!!!
Mo continues his dominance and the Yankees win!
Great game by Moose. The Yanks will try to win the series tomorrow afternoon with Wang.
And we just touched the face of God.
God bless you Mo.
GUess Rivera will have to close and pitch the 9th.
What a dominant inning from Rivera.
Thanks SJ – that is really interesting
(if sad)
It must make legit players ticked.
NICE WIN YANKS!
Yeah, Moose came in after Rocket fizzled in game 7 in the 2003 ALCS.
Moose gets #9 right now.
I love Mussina, I have always been a fan since we signed him to a six year 88.5 mil contract. BTW, that is one of the few long term pitching contracts that worked. Mussina has been consistent and relatively healthy. Even now, Mussina isn’t that bad. last year he only became bad toward the end but then finished strong. this year he has been great. I think we got to lighten up. He is the only free agent pitcher we signed that paid off. He could ahve been another Pavano, Wright, or Brown but he made that huge contract worth it.
I think 275 wins or so will get Moose into the Hall and I think he deserves it.
I do take the era he pitched in into account.
The guy spent his entire career in the AL and the AL East. To win that many games and to keep his ERA as low as he has is an impressive feat, IMO.
Tonight’s game once again shows how important starting pitching is.
The bull pen is much better pitching with a 4 run lead.
Imagine how good the rotation would look if Hughes pitched like we thought he would and Kennedy too???
Steph
I agree with you that there are players in the hall that should not be in. that being said I still believe that only the greatest should get in the hall
“Tonight’s game once again shows how important starting pitching is.”
We still needed 9 outs from the pen. We are going to need that 3 times thru the rotation every single time.
Starting pitching is huge but the pen isn’t far behind.
I still love to watch Mo pitch as much as I did 10 years ago.
DRAFT IS TOMORROW !
We won. YAY
Way to go Moose!
Only the greatest should be in the Hall, but we know that that will never happen.
I appreciate that Moose settled for more money to come play for the Yankees. Great win.
For those of you keeping track at home, what was the single most important factor in that win, the quality start from Moose or the performance of the setup man in the 8th?
Mo is definately a treat to watch. I agree with you Angel every time he comes out of the bullpen i get chills and have a smile on my face.
that is a good way to end this. way too may good players get in
Who draws the line at greatest? Who makes the determination? Only the best 3 from any era?? I think the HOF does a great job of putting in the exceptional but you can’t just make it the Ruth and Mays Hall. There needs to spots for the Sandbergs and Drysdales. Just like I think Mattingly should be in if they let Puckett in. Does one hit and 2 rings as part of a team outweigh Donnie Baseballs career which was freakily alike with Kirby?
And don’t doubt how much the Hall enjoys the talk and the crowds and the energy of an induction ceremony. Money matters.
“He’s a freak of nature. He’s taken one pitch and perfected it.”
– one HoFer to another, Frank Thomas on Mo Rivera
Bradley I’m with you. During the years when the Yankees were dominant their steadiest claim to fame was called Mendoza/Nelson/Stanton/Rivera. You ran into the buzzsaw you never recovered.
“We still needed 9 outs from the pen. We are going to need that 3 times thru the rotation every single time.”
Yeah, but Ohlendorf and Farnsworth were able to get some of those outs. A lesser starting performance, maybe we need 12 outs. Or have a 1 run lead and Kyle craps it up.
Also, it’s WAY easier to find a reliever that doesn’t suck than it is to find a starter to can consistently go 6-7 innings and give up 2-3 runs.
Ah, a win, such is a good thing.
Nick: 20 wins, WS ring, and a perfect game this season for Moose. This’ll be the year that’ll push him into the HOF!
Also, I might be delusional enough to believe that Moose’s performance tonight was boosted by my benching him from my fantasy rotation. Should I try benching Pettitte in favour of Oswalt or Meche?
I’m a big Moose, so with that proviso:
a) I think he is definitely helping his HoF case this year.
Is he in right now?
No, but every W gets him closer.
b) Should the Yankees resign him next year?
Let’s wait out the year, but if we get this very Moose the rest of the year, I have to say you do, for pretty much what he’s making this year.
(Objectively, Moose is the second best Yankee starter. And surprisingly, Wang hasn’t been much better than him, especially after today’s start improved Moose’s numbers).
If the yankees hadn’t drafted like the Pirates for a decade we wouldn’t have this bullpen crunch and terrible bench right now.
Kyle the Hick -
I am assuming you are male and I have to say that I love what you just said about Mo. It really makes me so happy to see that men both have emotions and show them.
Kyle – you are male, aren’t you?
Jay Jaffe’s JAWS criteria for evaluating a player’s Hall of Fame chances I believe has Mussina comfortably over both the Peak and Career criteria for Hall of Fame election; he had an underrated string of dominant seasons in the late 90s and early 2000s with the Orioles and his first couple of seasons with the Yankees where he was one of the premier right-handed pitchers in all of baseball, and all things considered (last season aside), he has aged gracefully enough to remain productive in his twilight years.
Granted, Mussina was never a Pedro Martinez at his peak, but he’s been productive late into his career (which is more than Pedro can say at this point of time), and his career statistics match up pretty favorably with Curt Schilling, who some in the media seem to think will be a lock for election.
“You ran into the buzzsaw you never recovered.”
Yeah…because Cone, Wells, Clemens, Pettitte and co were always handing those guys leads.
I can’t believe we’re still having this argument.
I just got back home and I see we won. Woohoo!! Mo’s ERA is .35. That’s just sick.
I’m a firm believer in great starting pitching but 6 innings is average. Not great. When you consistently need 9-12 outs from a pen that isn’t good. Puts a lot of pressure on Wang and Andy to be not just good but innings eaters all the time.
Because we have all seen how inconsistent the pen is and we don’t want to see them in close games every single game. Except for the 9th.
Now if the offense would get going they can take some pressure off those 9-12 outs and Joba and Rasner and Moose.
This is an argument? It’s more like you disagreeing. I have no problem with that.
About finding good relief? Ask the Ray starters whose games were blown continually by bad relief. Or gee, ask our starters!
“If the yankees hadn’t drafted like the Pirates for a decade we wouldn’t have this bullpen crunch and terrible bench right now.”
PRE- 2005 YES eversince that point and forward Lin Garrett is no longer working that dept. Damon Oppenheimer has taken the spot
I’m not going to complain that we apparently bounced into 3 more DPs tonight because I see that a few of the guys had hits with 2 outs and runners on.
I’m with you on the 20 wins and the WS as possibilities, the perfect game would be incredible, but I think that involves pitching past the 7th inning, doesn’t it? But it could happen… one can dream.
I think the starting pitching/Bullpen/Joba Joba Joba argument will be continuing on for a while..
Fallen Phoenix,
Moose only does badly in the Black Ink HoF test (he’s at 14, and the average HoF is at 40).
He’s above the average HoFer in Grey ink (237, with the average at 185), HoF Standards (51, with the average at 50) and Hof Monitor (114, with the average at 100).
I think the key to the Yankees winning is for me not to watch them. I think I’ve missed 3 games this year and each time, they won.
It’s great to see Moose hold his own. I wish he could go 7 innings each start, but beggers can’t be choosy.
“Yeah…because Cone, Wells, Clemens, Pettitte and co were always handing those guys leads.”
And that offense was pretty lousy for years. So every game was a one run game. Those Yanks would hang around for 6 innings and then beat pens up. And in todays day and age you still need 6 outs from a pen every night if you are in close games because no pitcher goes 8 every time.
Hopefully this pen gets some consistency. Tonight was a good start. But they are going to need to trade for a lefty and another arm. It’s a work in progress and a few guys stepping up and pitching well would help.
Mark Melancon tonight: 3 shutout innings to get the win in 3-1, 12 inning win for Trenton tonight.
His overall line: 3 IP, 1 hit, 0 runs, 0 BB, 2K’s.
He is now 3-0 in Trenton with a 1.53 ERA.
Gotta be gettin’ closer to being in the mix.
Does anyone want Moose signed next year for 1 year plus a club option for 12 million a year?
Two addendums to my previous post:
First, I just looked up Moose’s JAWS (this is admittedly from earlier in the year), and he’s actually short of the peak benchmark by a few points of WARP, but his combination of peak and career WARP values does give him an overall JAWS that indicates he should be in the Hall.
Second, a brief explanation of what JAWS is from its creator, Jay Jaffe:
“If you’re new to the JAWS (Jaffe WARP Score) system, it’s designed to compare each player with those already in the Hall of Fame at his position using career and peak (seven best seasons) WARP3 totals”
To give an indication of where Moose stacks with the other active pitchers who should merit Hall of Fame consideration when they retire:
Pitcher Career Peak JAWS
Roger Clemens 199.6 83.9 141.8
Greg Maddux 180.3 86.0 133.2
Randy Johnson 147.0 77.3 112.2
Tom Glavine 137.4 63.7 100.6
Pedro Martinez 118.0 68.8 93.4
Mike Mussina 117.8 64.3 91.1
John Smoltz 122.8 58.5 90.7
Curt Schilling 110.3 65.9 88.1
Avg HoF SP 106.0 67.2 86.6
And a more detailed explanation of JAWS, again in the words of Jay Jaffe:
“The goal of JAWS is to identify candidates who are as good or better than the average Hall of Famer at their position, a bar set so as to avoid further diluting the quality of the institution’s membership. Clay Davenport’s Wins Above Replacement Player (WARP) totals are the coin of the realm for this endeavor because they normalize all performance records in major league history to the same scoring environment, adjusting for park effects, quality of competition, and length of schedule. Pitchers, hitters and fielders are thus rated above or below one consistent replacement level, making cross-era comparisons a breeze. JAWS does not include non-statistical considerations–awards, championships, post-season performance, rap sheet, urine test results–but that’s not to say they should be left by the wayside. They’re just not the focus here, though they’ll be discussed in the context of the various candidacies.”
Bradley – yes yes and yes. Right on the money.
“Does anyone want Moose signed next year for 1 year plus a club option for 12 million a year?”
me do
If Moose goes to the NL next year he could grab those 30 some odd wins he needs for 300 and make this argument moot.
I could see him pitching for the Mets next year on a 2 yr deal. And hes shown those that those reports of him dying are false.
Great win tonight. This is what the Yankees are all about. Mike Mussina definitely deserves to be an All-Star at this years Midsummer Classic.
http://zellspinstripeblog.wordpress.com/
Kevin
But, Laura, I assume they’ve won more games when you were watching than they have when you weren’t.
Maybe if you turned the sound down and called the game yourself.
“Mark Melancon tonight: 3 shutout innings to get the win in 3-1, 12 inning win for Trenton tonight.
His overall line: 3 IP, 1 hit, 0 runs, 0 BB, 2K’s.
He is now 3-0 in Trenton with a 1.53 ERA.
Gotta be gettin’ closer to being in the mix.”
THAT’S MY N…. BULLDOG
Melancon is coming off TJ surgery. Same with Cox. They aren’t saviors. Let those guys develop in the minors where they belong until they are fully ready.
12 million next year for Moose? He’s making 11 this year.
“And that offense was pretty lousy for years. ”
True for ’96; Yanks offense was towards the bottom of the middle group of the AL (9th out of 14 AL teams)
2nd in the AL in ’97, 1st in the AL in ’98, 3rd in the AL in ’99, then down to 6th in the AL in ’00
I’m for bringing the Moose back, especially if Andy retires at the end of the season. He can be a good veteran presence after what’s bound to be a rotation of guys all under 30.
Wow how things change from month to month on this blog.
I think its too early to talk about Moose for next year.
You have to see how he holds up physically over the full season (only logical) and many people around the Yankees feel Moose will retire after the season.
That’s been the prevailing wisdom around the Yankees all year.
Perhaps a great season makes Moose reconsider his options. Time will tell.
BOS seems to be doing just fine without Big Papi. Darn!!
“Wow how things change from month to month on this blog.”
Month to month? More like game to game.
month to month? Try day to day
Bring Moose back with a cheap contract loaded with incentives based on every crossword puzzle he finishes IN PEN while the Yanks are batting during his starts.
It’s nice to fantacize about a full Moose season like what we’ve seen thus far. I hope it happens.
Fallen Pheonix,
As statistical methods continue to become widerspread I think Jaffe’s JAWS data will help Moose’s case.
Eventually HOF voters are going to move past simply looking at wins.
Jaffe’s written about Moose on BP and Futility Infielder a few times and he’s basically concluded Mussina’s lack of “peak” performance does hurt him but he should make it into the HOF.
Each marginal win now really strengthens his case.
“I think the starting pitching/Bullpen/Joba Joba Joba argument will be continuing on for a while..”
S.A. the thing that amazes me is hearing anyone say that having Joba out of the bullpen is not a problem. Saying that doesn’t mean that you object to having him in the rotation. It just means that you recognize how much of a job it will be to find his replacement. Before he even left the pen, or I should say on the day it was announced, Leiter and Flash BOTH said they thought he was more important to the pen than to the starting rotation. So all I am saying is that it isn’t a sign of weakness on the part of any “Joba in the rotation” fanatics to acknowledge the reality but say they still think he was needed more in the rotation.
Instead it’s like little kids in the schoolyard stomping their feet.
By the way, I am responding to what you said, not saying that you are one of those people.
I think it makes anyone who pretends that it didn’t create a problem or that it’s no big deal look like they really don’t know baseball.
Just my opinion.
I agree with SJ – look at Smoltz for the Braves. Here today gone tomorrow.
Would the braves have any interest in Farnsworth now that Smoltz is hurt?
They were interested last year for that Wickman deal.
CB,
Gonzalez is about to come off the DL. If Acosta continues to pitch well, their need isnt as great.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24975834/
Ah, minor league baseball, your promotions at times amaze me and in other times puzzle me
Melancon is fully recovered from TJ Surgery and is actually ahead of Cox on the rehab front.
He’s already pitched 43 innings so far this year. You don’t pitch a guy that much unless he is 100%.
He doesn’t need much more development time in the minors.
The fastest way to the majors for pitchers is to come out of the bullpen. Its how Joba raced through the system. Brandan Morrow in Seattle did the same thing.
When healthy, Melancon was a more accomplished college pitcher than both those guys. Had he not hurt his elbow, he was a Top 10 pick in his draft year.
His fastball is consistently sitting at 91-92 (his velocity prior to his injury) and his curveball (a plus pitch according to every scout I know who has seen him in Trenton) has been nasty.
Its going to be interesting to see what the Yankees do with him.
Its not inconcievable he comes from AA to the majors. I don’t see what good AAA will do for him at this point.
Either way, I think he is going to pitch for the Yankees this year. Its just a matter of time.
BD,
Very true. But couldn’t you at least let me dream for a couple of minutes?
SJ or CB what’s Melancon’s innings cap this year ?
I hate you, URL filter
So, anybody else hear about how some lady in Texas won a 10 grand paid funeral from a MiLB game last night?
Great win tonight. Now it’s draft time.
SJ – How much longer do you think it will be until Mark is called up to AAA?
There’s no way the yankees would be pushing Melancon this hard and fast through the system if they weren’t serious about using him this year.
He’s going to be in the majors at some point soon this year.
I think he’ll get promoted soon.
yeh CB I said the same thing after hearing he went a 3rd inning, is it safe to say AAA in 2 weeks ?
Wow, Smoltz is talking on BT like he might be done.
Brandon,
I’m honestly not sure what Melancon’s innings cap is because his rehab has been so unorthodox.
I can’t think of another TJ rehab quite like it.
They are basically having him throw innings simply to build strength. It’s as if his appearances are part work out.
So I don’t know how they’ll factor these innings into an innings cap.
I have a feeling that it’ll depend a lot on how he feels. Hopefully he doesn’t develop a tired shoulder.
But otherwise – let’s just assume he was on a very conservative schedule like the kids in their first year of A ball are.
He could pitch 100 innings? Just a guess.
Remember – right now he’s not really being used like a reliever. He’s getting structured days off and preset number of innings per outing.
He’s almost being used like a starter who is coming into the end of the game.
I don’t know what his innings cap is for the season.
With relief pitchers, they work them differently. They don’t use the “30 inning rule” they do with starters.
I agree with CB, there is no way he would be getting this kind of work if the plan wasn’t for him to be with the Yankees at some point this year.
They are doing these multi-inning outings to build up arm strength and keep him sharp. He’s also such a competitor, I’m sure he’s loving the challenge.
When he gets called up to the majors, he would only pitch an inning at a time.
Let’s say they call him up after 50 innings.
He could pitch 35 innings the rest of the year (over half a season) and be ok.
“S.A. the thing that amazes me is hearing anyone say that having Joba out of the bullpen is not a problem. Saying that doesn’t mean that you object to having him in the rotation. It just means that you recognize how much of a job it will be to find his replacement. Before he even left the pen, or I should say on the day it was announced, Leiter and Flash BOTH said they thought he was more important to the pen than to the starting rotation. So all I am saying is that it isn’t a sign of weakness on the part of any “Joba in the rotation†fanatics to acknowledge the reality but say they still think he was needed more in the rotation.”
trisha-well, I think most that advocate Joba going into the rotation realize the pen is weakened greatly. I personally want Joba going into the rotation and I fully realize that there will be pepto moments in the future with regards to the 7th and 8th inning.
Hell, maybe tomorrow will be one of those “grab the pepto” moments.
But I do think it is for the best. I just hope that the offense can provide some run support…ok..maybe a lot of run support…to make those later innings more bearable and we just gotta hope that the guys we have now can step up and get the job done.
I also do think at some point the bullpen without Joba will straighten itself out. When that happens, I don’t know.
No pain..no gain is the way I see it. I do think Joba will be a stud pitcher..a stud pitcher that we need to have…and we are gonna go through some pain while that process takes place.
Just gotta hope the rest of the team plays well while that process goes on. That hasn’t really occurred…
“So, anybody else hear about how some lady in Texas won a 10 grand paid funeral from a MiLB game last night?”
I did not hear about that…weird…
Blyleven should be in the HOF no question, I think by the time Moose is up for eligibility Bert will be in, so I consider him apart from Kaat and Johns. A twenty-win season this year would really help Mussina’s case because there are no HOF starting pitchers without 20 win seasons. Hope it happens. The bullpen has been amazing in all his starts this year and held on to all his wins this year. Too bad they can’t pitch like this all the time.
Is an August pen that includes 3-5 guys currently in the minors a real possiblity? (Melancon, Cox, Robertson, Horne, McCutchen, Patterson…)
any chance robertson gets promoted? he’s been as dominant as melancon and cox.
Pete,
how does a writer get a HOF vote?
> Laura June 4th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
> BOS seems to be doing just fine without Big Papi. Darn!!
Laura, if there was ever a night for Boston to do fine, it’s O.K. that it was tonight. At least we pick up a half game.
“I think it makes anyone who pretends that it didn’t create a problem or that it’s no big deal look like they really don’t know baseball.”
The issue is not whether it took away from the pen. OBVIOUSLY it did. The issue is whether the team is potentially better with him in the pen or the rotation.
Is it easier to find a good pen arm or a kid who can be a good to great starter?
Let’s say you had to trade for one. Do you think it’d be easier to trade for Joel Zumaya or for Justin Verlander?
“any chance robertson gets promoted? he’s been as dominant as melancon and cox.”
a) Melancon has been much more dominant than Cox.
b) Robertson has walked a bunch of guys in AAA.
So, there’s a chance that he get up at some point, but he has to show more command. Veras wasn’t walking that many at AAA either, and we see how he’s doing up here.
“No pain..no gain is the way I see it. I do think Joba will be a stud pitcher..a stud pitcher that we need to have…and we are gonna go through some pain while that process takes place.”
S.A. this says it all. And as much as I loved what he did in the pen, I absolutely agree with you that he is going to be a stud pitcher. I actually expect to see it his next outing, and not just because he’ll be facing KC. I think that he had his Yankee jitters and now we’re going to see the real Joba show up again.
I hate to say it, but I call Mike Mussina MR. ALMOST.
ALMOST 20 wins in a season (19)
ALMOST a Cy Young Award (2nd)
ALMOST a perfect game (one strike away)
ALMOST a World Series Ring (one inning away)
… and …
ALMOST a Hall of Famer…
“Is an August pen that includes 3-5 guys currently in the minors a real possiblity? (Melancon, Cox, Robertson, Horne, McCutchen, Patterson…)”
Yes. I’ve thought all season that some kind of combination of those arms was going to be their best chance of winning this year.
It’s a huge risk with a lot of uncertainty – it could blow up in their faces.
But they are not going to win with Farnsworth and Hawkins.
None of the guys in their pen right now is as talented as Alan Horne.
I don’t know if Horne’s arm will respond to being used on a relief pattern but they need to see.
You build pitching staffs from the starters out. Nobody builds a pitching staff from the bullpen out.
If Joba was a closer, its a more legitimate discussion because you can make good arguments both ways as to what’s more valuable, a closer or a top end starter?
As a setup guy, its a no brainer. A kid with an ace ceiling as a pitcher goes into the rotation.
Its very simple to examine the move.
Take a look at every 8th inning guy in baseball, while also examining every team’s ace.
If one doesn’t believe Joba can be an ace, then look at every teams #2 starter. There isn’t a baseball person in the game who believes he will be any worse than a #2.
I think you will find that #1 and #2 starters are better pitchers than every 8th inning guy in the game.
Does it weaken the bullpen? Short term, yes.
Long term, no because the Yankees have more guys who are closer to being ready to help in the bullpen than they do guys with Joba’s ceiling in the starting rotation.
We are talking about covering one inning. If the NY Yankees, can’t find a guy to cover one inning, they aren’t doing their jobs correctly.
They will get the inning covered. It will be a lot easier to cover it with quality starting pitching.
Quality starting pitching is what makes teams win championships. Not setup guys.
totally agree SJ44
“Melancon has been much more dominant than Cox”
Have you seen the two actually pitch, or is this comment regurgitating box scores? I’m asking because I really wonder how Melancon is progressing. Some say not this year. Some say they see it coming quickly. A lot of conflicting reports. Anyone have any Mike Ashmore links?
“Robertson has walked a bunch of guys in AAA.”
I think he’s getting this in check. I believe his last two outings he hasn’t walked anyone.
And I believe one of those was the 2 .1 inning appearance where he struck out like 5 or 6.
He was shaky when he first got there but I think he’s putting it together. He’s never had a lot of trouble with his command before.
Well said, SJ44. If there’s a baseball-argument response to that sans insults and straw man arguments, I would like to read it.
Kyle McFU….CLAREN went F**** n nuts
McLaren doing his best Ozzie impression dropping F Bombs by the dozen on post game presser.
“Anyone have any Mike Ashmore links?”
i just left mike a comment over at Thunder Thoughts saying people were looking for his opinion on Melancon over here…so hopefully he will come on over here
JOhn McLaren *
I’ve seen both guys pitch this year. Melancon is further along.
Cox’s velocity is still down. He’s effective because he can throw off AAA hitters with a combo of his delivery and frisbee slider.
He’s sitting 87-89 right now. Needs a bit more tick on his pitches before he’s in the majors, IMO.
Prior to his injury, he was 91-92. He will get there. Just not yet.
He’s also more of a 7th inning, RH specialist kind of guy.
Melancon’s ceiling is as the future closer of the team. He’s that good.
He has more of an arsenal of pitches and his curveball is a plus pitch. Probably a 70-75 on the scout scale of 80.
You combine his fastball, curveball, mound presence, and makeup, you have an 8th inning guy who can get both lefties and righties out. He’s also working on a changeup. If he masters that pitch, he’s going to be unhittable.
At this point, its a matter of the Yankees deciding when he is strong enough physically to be called up.
I don’t think its a matter of determining whether or not he can do the job. I think they are confident he can.
Its all about being ready physically at this point, IMO.
Whoa Nellie John McLaren.
He’s not too happy
O’s fall to Twins and Yanks are out of the cellar.
thunderfangabe,
Thank you. Good idea.
Gotta love a Boston-Tampa series. Tomorrow it’s Tampa’s turn. Let these guys beat each other up like Kimbo and Colossus.
John McLaren needs to get himself a Dick’s Deluxe and or a trip to Ivars and find his happy place.
http://www.ddir.com/
“Have you seen the two actually pitch, or is this comment regurgitating box scores?”
This seems like a really unnecessarily snarky comment.
But by “regurgitating box scores” you mean statistics yes there is areal difference between them.
Cox has pitched very well but he’s not striking out many hitters. Only around 4.5/9. Melancon is striking out 7.4/9 and that figure is misleading because during his first several outings this season he was striking out very few hitters. As he’s picked up arm strength his strike out rate has gone up.
Cox is also giving up more fly balls. His GO:AO is 1.67. Melancon 1.32.
And overall, Melancon has pitched way more innings – he’s pitched 43 innings so far this season already. Cox has only pitched 23 innings.
The yanks are pushing Melancon much harder than they are Cox.
It’s also reasonable to believe that Melancon’s stuff will translate better to the majors as he has a better fastball.
When is hughes starting his rehab starts?
no problem, martin
“At this point, its a matter of the Yankees deciding when he is strong enough physically to be called up.”
According to Kiley McDaniel he sits at 91-92, so it’s probably a matter of his body deciding when he is strong enough physically to be called up. I would think he needs to get those last few ticks back first, no?
what a night. Kyle wit ha clean inning. Molina 2 hits… Miracles do happen.
Tommorrow the lineup is back and maybe Wang will get it together.
I like what SJ wrote about Melancon, I hope your assesment is right, if it is that will really really help the pen. The pen only needs 2 addtl. arms…,.
hypothetical: Moose wins 20 this year… do the Yanks sign him for 1 more?
was hughes hiding his injury? or is he just terrible?
now we wonder what does Damon Oppenheimer have up his sleeve for tomorrow ?
Someone asked how a writer gets a HoF vote. I think (if memory serves me right) that a writer has to be a member of BBWAA (or whatever the acronym is) and cover MLB baseball for a paper for 10 years (an exception was just made recently for some ESPN guys – and that created an uproar vis-a-vis why Neyer and Law were NOT grandfathered in. There was a great thread on this over at BTF, in which Tracy Ringolsby, Keith Law and Rob Neyer all dipper their toes).
IMO, the Yankees are going to have a MONSTER pen next year. IF they are close in September, the pen is going to be quite full with call-ups…..
20 wins?
You bet we sign him!
Here’s what Melancon himself said about his velocity:
“Melancon: “Well, in college, I’d sit 92 or around there. And that’s where I’m sitting now. I feel like I wouldn’t get that velocity earlier in the year and now I feel like I’m getting it sooner in the year. But I still haven’t thrown that many innings in competitive games to know if I’m going to gain more velocity or what. But as of right now, I’m very happy with my velocity.â€
It’s possible he’ll pick up some velocity compared to what he was throwing at as a junior. As i remember, his elbow was bothering him for a good chunk of that season.
Some guys come back from TJ throwing harder.
http://thunderbaseball.wordpre.....-melancon/
“hypothetical: Moose wins 20 this year… do the Yanks sign him for 1 more?”
Let’s just get to the 20 wins first…that would be great!
Some pretty serious storms rolled through here and I lost power yet again, so I was only able to catch the game from the 4th inning onwards. Mussina’s curve looked extra sharp tonight, very impressive and I was pleased to see some timely situational hitting. Good old CB Buckner lived up to his reputation as having one of the worst strike zones amongst MLB umps, but thankfully he kept his theatrics to a minimum. Here’s hoping Wang is back to form tomorrow night.
Brandon,
I’m tempering my expectations for the draft his year. It’s possible that this year there’s not going to be that guy that falls all the way to 28. There’s just not that much talent as in past drafts.
We’ll see. I think they’ll have to do well in the international signings this year to make up for the draft. There are some big names from the DR this year.
I think the Yanks take a serious look at more Moose if he gets over 16 wins. That’s an arbitrary number, but anything much less that that now that he’s already at 9 on June 4 means he didn’t finish up very well. To be highly speculative.
If Moose actually gets to 20, who knows, he might want too much to come back!
yeh I keep thinking the same but I pray a Smoak or Hosmer is in the 28th slot, CB Inoa a Yank ?
“Here’s what Melancon himself said about his velocity:”
That is a good link. Why did some reports have him in the mid-90s?
CB can Fredreich fall to the #28 spot tomorrow ?
If Mussina can finally get 20 wins and keep his ERA down this year, I can see signing him for another year. Veteran presence on the pitching staff is important. This year he also seems looser, more at ease, having more fun.
I think if he wins 20 it makes a good arguement for him getting in the Hall. With this steroid era, he might get in regardless, though he just seems to keep missing the mark by a little.
“There are some big names from the DR this year.”
Can you give a brief note on who these guys are (names/positions/upside… etc) ?
If Moose wins 20, then Elias may tag him Type A. In that case I think you take the 1st and sandwich and run!
“Why did some reports have him in the mid-90s?”
Because rumors spread over the internet? He was never a mid-90′s guy.
I’ve personally never seen any reputable source describe him as throwing in the mid 90′s.
“If Mussina can finally get 20 wins and keep his ERA down this year, I can see signing him for another year”
Ya think?
Melancon 3 more innings there must be something up there…..
If moose keeps it up and will give the yanks a hometown disscount to be the 5th starter maybe, but let’s see if he can keep it together for the season..
16 wins would be unbelievale..
Tampa has played 34 home games, Pena went down. No way the pitchers keep this up.
they will win 77 games that is my prediction the yanks will win 90+…
Funny how 90% of the blog wanted Mussina DFA’d and now the debate is whether he gets 20 wins or “just 16″ on his way to the HOF.
at least it got rid of anti.
Not related but the Red Wings won tonight.
Two teams of mine winning their respective league titles? Golden.
Detroit Red Wings 2008 Stanley Cup Champions
#11
Tony–
I believe you have to be a writer accredited with the BBWA for 10 years before you get a HOF vote.
On the Moose next year from I agree with the people saying he will retire. In reading the Feinstein book (yes I am still reading it and it isGREAT!!) and hearing some of Moose’s interviews this year ie on WFAN twice I also have a feeling he will retire. He has mentioned in the book as well as in interviews he does not want to be the kind of player that goes on too long. If he has a really good year he is the kind of guy at his ag who I think will want to go out on a igh note rather than stick around fo ryet another contract and not be productive and have to leave on a low note.
Brandon,
No way Smoak or Hosmer are going to fall.
You know what – I think Inoa is going to happen. I really do.
He might be the best international pitcher since Felix Hernandez.
6’7 200 lbs throwing in the low 90′s as a 15 year old?
That’s not bad. They are going to throw him an insane amount of money at him. I don’t think they are going to let him slip through their fingers.
Have you heard anything about him from people in the DR?
I don’t think 90% of the blog wanted Mussina DFA’d. But he’s certainly changed a lot of minds after a terrible start.
stuart,
i think they’ll do a little better than 42-61 the rest of the way even if they fizzle a little bit.
the wildcard may only need 90 wins this year. heck, maybe less.
BD,
Here’s a good link on international guys. By far the best prospect this year is Michael Inoa – a right handed pitcher from the DR. He’s supposed to be a really special talent. Huge upside.
http://www.baseballamerica.com.....cts/?p=733
“I’ve personally never seen any reputable source describe him as throwing in the mid 90’s.”
Scout.com reputable?? Then where do they get 95 (mid 90s) from 91-92?
http://yankees.scout.com/2/537533.html
Nick in SF,
It sure seemed that way after his start against Manny and the Sox.
“Have you heard anything about him from people in the DR?”
legit 15 yrs. old and Cashman went there w/ Carlos Rios to watch him.
gayle,
Since you’re reading the Feinstein book…
I was in a book store a couple of months back and I thought I read something in that book about him wanting to keep Joba in the pen…
Is that correct or did I remember it wrong?
Further to my comment that the Yankees will have a monster pen in 2009, I would not be surprised if the Yankees are VERY active in the off-season/2009 trade market, because of their glut of pitching.
(Yes, it sounds strange to speak of a glut of pitching, but it’s coming).
CB pepople in D.R. are telling Inoa to go w/ the Yankees, that’s what my family out there relayed to me. Minaya was out there too (ofcourse) and some Brave latin scout, yes also the Red Sox and Mariners (that surprised me)
here’s the april 17th thread on moose:
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200...../#comments
and my post
“let’s not hang him yet. The Sox, Manny especially, have hit the Yankees well partially due to the fact they see them so many times.
Mussina may fare much better against other teams in the AL.”
here’s the april 17th thread on moose:
yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/04/17/game-17-red-sox-at-yankees/#comments
and my post
“let’s not hang him yet. The Sox, Manny especially, have hit the Yankees well partially due to the fact they see them so many times.
Mussina may fare much better against other teams in the AL.”
people *
Braves *
Fro those watching the draft tomorrow please dont forget about the special Negro League draft that is being held prior and will be broadcast on the internet at mlb.com at 1:00PM
I think it will be very special to hear from these guys and also a great way to honor these special plaers that have not been given enough credit. How great how this special player can get recognized by MLB and the Yankees and wear the hat
The Yankees are drafting:
New York Yankees: Emilio “Millito†Navarro – SS/2B/3B – Cuban Stars
Millito Navarro had good hands and was considered an excellent hitter. In 1928 he was the regular shortstop and leadoff batter for the Cuban Stars of the Eastern Colored League, and the following season he posted a .337 batting average. A star in his homeland, he was elected to the Puerto Rico Baseball Hall of Fame in 1992 and the Puerto Rican Sports Hall of Fame in 2004. Currently 102 years of age, Navarro is believed to be the oldest living professional baseball player.
Cb,
Thanks…
I’m assuming he would project as a first rounder if he were elgible for the draft?
will the NHL and Sam Rosen get off my radio already !
Hank talking contract for Cash
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....tract.html
Boston Dave, you neglected to reprint my post from that game:
“Ok, awful outing for the Moose, but I think he learns from this. I really do. Here’s my prediction: before the first week of June is over, we’ll be talking about whether Moose can get to 20 wins, whether he’ll be in the All-Star game, whether the Yanks will bring him back in 2009, and whether he might make the HOF. That’s how much I think he’s going to turn it around. In fact, I bet more people will be crying over Joba’s move to the rotation than about Moose. Write it down!”
gayle,
Very nice job. Good post.
Horne is starting on Sunday for Scranton….Kontos & Melancon domiante @ Trenton again tonight
http://tinyurl.com/5w49c6
lol Nick…
on another note, does anyone know what happened to Edward Salcedo?
Dynasty you are correct it is in final chapter (pf course I am one of those that reads the last chapter first) the exact quote is as follows pretty much shows you a lot about Moose sense of humour at the end. Also please note that when talking about thi issue he really is talkinabout the postseason. Also touches on my point earlier about him retiring after this year.
“The key to being successful in the postseason and when you play good teams is the middle innings. All good teams have goosd starters and a good closer. Posteseason games are different than the reguloar season. STarters have tio work harder because they’re facing good hitters who are going to have good at bats. You have to have guys who can get outs in the sixth, seventh and eight innings.
When the Yankees won the World Series, they ha guys like Mo in 96 who always pitched the seventh, eight and then peeople like Mke STaton, Jef Nelson and Ramiro Mendoza who got outs in those innings and to to Mo. Chamberlain can be that guy next year. Andy and I will probaby be gone in another year and then you’re goingto need him to start.”
He smiled, “Clearly they aren’t going to consult me on this”
Actually, here is a real post from me after Moose hit Pedroia:
Nick in SF
April 17th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Who do the Sox plunk if they want to retaliate? Our bat boy?
BD still unsigned IDK what the hell is going on w/ him.
Here’s another actual post from that game. Boston Dave, I had your back!
Nick in SF
April 17th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
To echo what Boston Dave just said, Moose is looking awful pitching to the Sox for the second consecutive start after looking… at least decent against them on Satuday. Just like Wang looked awful yesterday after being masterful on Friday. It’s not easy pitching to the same team –especially THIS team– two starts in a row.
Let’s see how Moose looks in his next few starts before be start digging the grave.
“on another note, does anyone know what happened to Edward Salcedo?”
That’s funny, when someone brought up Inoa I thought the exact same thing. At this point he’s still a myth, no? never signed with the Indians. Is Boras still holding out?
Brandon,
I think you mentioned you have family in the DR. They hear anything new about Salcedo?
gayle,
Thanks! So Moose wanted him in the pen for this year with the idea of transitioning him next…
That would have been a smarter move in that it would have given us more time to plug that late-inning hole left by his absence…
Too bad they didn’t listen to Moose…because I think this will be a big problem…
Hopefully it will still work out for us anyway!
Joba pitches well as a starterand the bullpen comes around better than the pundits expect!
GO YANKS!
I just told you …
Martin the newest thing I got from my family is that he thinks he’s a rockstar right now. When Boras has your ear weird stuff happens.
Dynasty: you are wrong.
Again on the book I am only so far at the point when Moose when on the DL last year. Reading about a chapter or so a day but so far to me the most interesting parts were about both Moose and Glavine dealing with the players strike in 94 and how that affected them the following free agent years in contract negotiations as wel as there other contracts.
Glavine having second, third thoughts about signing with the Mets lets just say Mets fans dont really know how close they came to not getting him (and I know they wish they hadn’t) he literally was going to walk away the day before.
Moose reflecting on the Boston playoff game when he came in in relief.
Moose’s sense of humor is terrific and he is such a smart guy. Small thing but he calls Alex – ROD not A-ROd not Alex just ROD.
“That would have been a smarter move in that it would have given us more time to plug that late-inning hole left by his absence…”
jesus can wait 24 HRS… atleast
“When Boras has your ear weird stuff happens.”
Yeah, that’s probably true. We don’t need him then.
The problem with Mooses plan in that quote is the innings issue. Next year doing it this way the innings capfor next year wil not be prohibitive whereas if hew was only in the pen this year he would be on a HUGe innings cap for next year where we will already because of the injury issues with Highes and Kennedy be short and IF Andy and Moose aare gone we can have 3/5 of the rotation on an innings cap.
“Dynasty: you are wrong.”
Be more specific, please…
OK, Dynasty, you are wrong in your statement that it would have been smarter to transition Joba to the rotation next year. Furthermore, I don’t know if I believe you, next year you’d want it done the year after — or never.
For Joba to be a starter next year with 170ish innings he has to have the transition this year and get to 140ish. And it would retard his progress to keep him in the bullpen for the entire year.
The need to have Joba in the rotation next year is even greater than it is shaping up to be now. While today’s game thread reads like a long love letter to the Moose, we have no idea what that situation will look like by the end of the season. Ditto for Pettitte. Right there, two veterans who might not be back.
We now know that even if Hughes and/or Kennedy come back and make a contribution this year, we can’t count on either of them yet for next year. And since this is going to be essentially a lost year for Hughes in terms of building up his innings, even if he’s a starter next year we definitely can’t count on him for a full season.
So for next year, our rotation consists of Wang, Joba, and fill in the blanks. Without the transition this year, no 170ish innings from Joba next year.
Until I see a reason to think otherwise, I still believe the timetable for the transition was moved up a month or so because of the Hughes/Kennedy problems, but that’s about it.
CB…I just made it home from a late round of golf…..As for MR. Cole, I spoke with a friend that was part of the umpire crew last night ( who also did a CIF Playoff game )…His take was that by far he was the best pitcher he’s seen in the past 3 years at the HS level…He also stated that as an umpire who also does College games, he felt he has the stuff to be a # 3 at the Collegian level right now……Also spoke with Tim Decines today at the course…Tim is still very much involved with the UCLA program as he lives in Newport Beach and actually serves as a PR guy for the program in Orange County….His take is the kid is immature, very bright, outstanding tools and believes once he’s in a college atmosphere ( away from home ) he’ll grow up and be on track….As for being picked tomorrow, if the right team and $$$$ are there, Boras will have him sign…..Positivley a solid Blue Chipper…..
Mike Mussina’s performance this year has been pleasantly surprising for Yankees fans, but do you honestly think it will last the entire season? That’s asking a lot from a guy who MUST hit his spots or he will get smoked. As for Chamberlain, I understand that the Yankees need to upgrade their rotation, but Chamberlain in the eighth and Rivera in the ninth will give the team more wins than Chamberlain as a starter. I’m a Red Sox fan, and I cringed at the thought of Papelbon in the rotation and out of the closer’s role. The eighth inning set-up role is just as important as the closer’s role. Blame Brian Cashman for not providing your team with a more seasoned starting rotation. If he did, then Chamberlain could remain as the dominant bridge to Rivera.
Jeff
http://www.soxandpinstripes.com
Nick in SF,
Wonder why Moose took that line of thought, in the Feinstein book, then…
I wonder if it would have been possible to get him to 140 this season by giving him more middle innings-6th 7th and 8th for example on occasion…
That might have been more helpful to the club this season…
Then, come spring training next year, he could transition to a full-fledged starter…
Don’t know if it could have been done that way but it’s just a thought…
“raymagnetic ®™
Off topic for a second. I just wanted to tell you that your logo is seriously a trade mark. Pete had me remove my crazy look when i re-vamped my name. You wouldnt happen to have naked photos of Pete would you?”
Just now seeing this. I definitely don’t have any naked Pete pictures. I didn’t see your name when you revamped it so I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you keep it.
Without knowing Moose’s line of reasoning, hard to respond. Moose is good at crossword puzzles, maybe he was puzzled by the prospect of competing with Joba for a spot in the rotation.
The superior baseball minds can speak to this better than I can, but Joba out of the bullpen doesn’t pitch the same as Joba the starter will. Bullpen Joba doesn’t use his full arsenal and thus doesn’t develop all his pitches. We saw the fruits of that in his start yesterday.
Joba using and developing all his pitches will hopefully lead to fewer 30-pitch innings and longer outings even within the confines of the pitch counts.
And the best way to learn is by doing; games that Joba starts now will make subsequent starts easier or at least more familiar for him.
“We still don’t have a lead off hitter, Furcal solves that problem.”
Haven’t you heard of Johnny Damon? Have you seen the year he is having?
“Without knowing Moose’s line of reasoning, hard to respond. Moose is good at crossword puzzles, maybe he was puzzled by the prospect of competing with Joba for a spot in the rotation.”
Or, being the puzzle master that he is, he’s smart enough to avoid those puzzles without a solution, i.e:
The bullpen sans Joba!
“That might have been more helpful to the club this season…”
yeah…because the rotation is so dominant that it REALLY doesn’t need any fortification.
Look. Let’s say you need to trade for a player. Would you rather try to put together a trade for Zumaya or Verlander? Which would require more players?
If you have a player who could be either one of those, WHY would you not develop him into Verlander as soon as possible?
“Or, being the puzzle master that he is, he’s smart enough to avoid those puzzles without a solution, i.e:
The bullpen sans Joba!”
If you think that’s smart, it’s only because you’re ignoring the much more concerning puzzle of the ROTATION without Joba.
Dynasty, read this game thread, there are many more bullpen options for THIS SEASON than there are rotation options. Or just read whozat’s post right below yours. Read anything, but please, figure this out!
whozat,
It’s a good point, but it does depend on your specific need…
the problem is, when you bring in a Joba to help out your bullpen because there’s a need there, what happens when he leaves to be developed into a starter?
I don’t have a problem developing Joba as a starter…we haven’t developed a good one in a long time, so we’re overdue in my opinion…
But if you’re going to do it, there’s no excuse for not having a better plan in place for late-inning relief than the one we currently have…
Think how much better you felt when you saw us take a lead into the 7th and 8th with Joba in the pen, than right now…
Now, you cross your fingers and hope that Farnsworth or Veras or Ramirez or whoever, will get the job done…
You have to admit there’s a different feel to it…
You’re the New York Yankees…if you had a plan to transition Joba to the rotation, where’s the plan for fortifying the Pen now that he’s out of it?
That’s all I’m asking…
But why do you keep asking over and over again when there is a plain answer?
You know that there are bullpen reinforcements coming.
You know or should know by now that it has always been the plan to transition Joba to the rotation this season.
You know that Hughes and Kennedy both fell out of the rotation unexpectedly.
Where’s the big mystery?
Nick in SF,
I’m not interested in options or speculation…
Why didn’t we try some of these options out already, before we made this move?
If the plan all along was to make this move in this manner and on this timetable, then we should have been able to try some of these options out already…
The “plan” was probably never set in stone in my opinion…
“Hank talking contract for Cash”
Randy l’s worst nightmare
…. I swear IDK if your doing it on purpose or just don’t like to do research. You seriously need help Dynasty, that’s my honest opinion I hope you find it because we’re doing what we can here but there’s only so much we can do.
Nick-
Don’t even bother with Dynasty anymore, some people just don’t get it.
Dynasty, seriously, read the game thread, all of your questions are answered. They’re not going to rush up rookies from AA and AAA ball until they’re ready. These are quality arms, they’re not going to risk blowing them out to satisfy panicky fans.
I have already posited that I don’t think this was the original timetable, but Hughes and Kennedy going down changed the plan.
You say you’re not interested in speculation yet you seem to value your opinion about Joba above all others and against all the evidence. You’ve already admitted that you didn’t follow this issue over the off-season, when it was discussed and documented HEAVILY on this blog.
If you had, you would have a more complete set of facts to inform your opinion.
I’m betting it’s amnesia, it has to be, it just has to..
Buddy, I don’t know why I bother, because sometimes it seems like he’s making progress and then he regresses. Maybe he’s my project, like Farnsworth was Girardi’s? I don’t know, it could be a lost cause.
I just don’t want to have to picture Dynasty watcing Joba accepting his Cy Young award on TV from some dark dive bar, muttering to himself “he could have been even better as a setup man…”
Nick-
You have a ton of patience, which will come in handy if you ever have kids. If you already have kids, you must be a pretty darn good Dad.
Nick in Sf, Buddy and Brandon,
You’re right, I just don’t get it…
But at least I’m not alone:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....-for-Yanks
Oh,
And here’s someone else who is questioning the move:
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ins-1.html
“Have you seen the two actually pitch, or is this comment regurgitating box scores? I’m asking because I really wonder how Melancon is progressing. Some say not this year. Some say they see it coming quickly. A lot of conflicting reports. Anyone have any Mike Ashmore links?”
I think that if this were a “normal” situation, that ideally you’d let Melancon progress slowly considering he’s coming off of some pretty major surgery. Essentially, he’d spend most of the rest of the season in Trenton and get a late look in Scranton…
However, with the…uhhh, questionable nature of the Yankees bullpen, this isn’t a normal situation. I believe that Melancon is good enough to help at the big league level right now, and I’d imagine that he’ll be in Scranton by the All-Star break, if not significantly before then.
I’d imagine that if it came down to Cox or Melancon right this second, Cox would get the call only because he’s proven himself over a long period of time in pro ball than Melancon has — people seem to forget that he’d only thrown about eight innings before this season.
David Robertson is in the picture as well, and he’s another guy who has some nasty breaking stuff…and maybe you see Dan McCutchen converted to a reliever at some point as well.
Mike Ashmore,
Thank you. From the man himself.
ask and ye shall receive, martin