Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 04, 2008 
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Joba Chamberlain’s first start was not what he (or the crowd) expected. Brian Heyman has the story.
Dan Giese was impressed by his first visit to Yankee Stadium. This notebook also has updates on LaTroy Hawkins, Jorge Posada and Ian Kennedy.
Sam Borden writes that Joba Chamberlain cannot be easily defined. This column opens a door to a Joba you may not know.
the cialis bit slayed me.
game went pretty much as expected. hopefully they can bounce back tomorrow.
The problem with too many Yankee fans is that they feel a sense of entitlement and will not take the necessary steps to right the ship.
Youth is a big part in building a dynasty and the Yanks are going about this the right way in terms of keeping their young talent instead of trading them away.
Older teams naturally lose that energy and hunger over the course of a 162 game season and into the postseason. That’s just a fact.
Not many older teams win rings. And we already know that the Yankees are in this business to win rings.
You cannot stick a Band-Aid on a broken leg if you want it to heal properly. That is essentially what this team did over a span of 7-8 years by signing the newest and shiniest bell or whistle instead of addressing these problems like the starting rotation sooner.
Dynasties are always built around youth and a lot of homegrown talent. That’s how the Yanks did it in the late 90s and how the old Yankee teams did it. That’s how the Big Red Machine was born. To a lesser extent – it’s how the Braves were the class of the NL for a decade.
These teams also did it with starting pitching and the Yanks don’t have it. Trading for Santana or signing Sabathia is a quick fix that won’t solve the problem. They need to completely rebuild the rotation and inject the young talented Hughes, Kennedys, and Chamberlains of the world because it’s the right way to do it.
How many times do the Yanks have to get burned by adding aging free agents with huge contracts based on that they did somewhere else?
It’s a losing strategy and one Cashman has finally realized. This team got away from the immense success of the 90s by not building from within and developing young talent in the early part of this decade and it’s a big reason why the team is now in this position.
Frankly, the only way this team is going to get better over the long haul is to take a step back before you take two steps forward. That’s what the Red Sox did in 2006 by keeping their young kids and they are now in a much better position than the Yanks right now for it.
Patchwork like adding free agents and making dumb long term commitments again is exactly the wrong thing to do to rectify the problem. Growing pains are part of the developmental process so get used to it or come back next year.
Beautiful story about Joba and Harlan’s symbol of gratitude
Hey Franco, love the hair products.
Also, Amen!
I know that most teams tend not to make moves in June, but it looks like now is the time to go get some bullpen help.
Also, Cano looks terrible. Maybe a trip to AAA will wake him up.
Tonight’s game is pretty big.
GO YANKS!!
Many if not most analysts and fans said before the season started that the Yankees would need to cross their fingers with the Nos. 4 & 5 starters in the rotation and the team would win a lot of 10-7 games because of the hitting.
That premise was drawn assuming runs would be scored.
And then ………..
From the blog of Chad Jennings :
Brett Gardner not only leads the league in stolen bases, he also leads in sacrifice bunts and walks while ranking second in triples and runs. He’s sixth in on-base percentage.
Meantime the Yankees can just keep dead wood hanging around the Bronx like Betemit and Duncan.
HELLO Brian Cashman !!!!!
Jobas’ start last night wasn’t what we all had envinsioned…maybe some, but what I noticed most and probably chenged the whole tenor of his outing was the foul-tip strike out of Stewart that Molina couldn’t hold on to. If you look at the replay, Joba goes to the fist pump and then noticed Molina didn’t hold on to it and then things sort of changed.
I’m not saying that he would lasted five innnings or anything, I just think that kind of took him out of his game and the walks just kept comming.
This is the start of a long process, but in the end I’m very confident that we will all be happy with the end result.
The Yankees are rebuilding but the only real prospects that are close to the majors are pitchers and most of them are not really ready to contribute in a positive way. We see this every night as the Yankees run out another pitcher and they struggle.
I think it will probably be thin times for the Yankees for a couple years. Next year will probably be the worst since they will really have to play some of these kids since some of the older players will be gone and the young players hopefully grow into being major leaguers.
ItalianGreco,
“Also, Cano looks terrible. Maybe a trip to AAA will wake him up.”
He didn’t look great last night, but he did hit a ball hard to left. I think the worst is over for him. He’s coming around. He did hit .295 in May after hitting only .151 in April.
Deep to left, I hope so. We need him
Vader
IF Molina had hung onto that foul tip third strike out, the inning pitch count would not have been prolonged, the first run would not have scored.
IF Cano had count the thrown to second on the Rios second base steal and not allowed Rios to go to the third the second run would not have scored.
Molina has played good defense so it is hard to fault him, but the lack of support, defensive and offensive by the team continues to haunt our pitching staff.
Last night Joba was the victim.
Excuse me, I meant to write, IF Cano had caught the throw to second.
Cool article on Joba.
I’m betting Jorge will be activated tonight to dh, and will catch tomorrow night.
Pete –
I LOVE your blog. I don’t write in often but we discuss what you say at work. That being said, I have a non-Yankee topic.
With regards to the Cialis commercial, have you ever watched the infomercials that YES has on at night? I was sick recently, was up half the night and would fall asleep with Yes on. After the foreclosure commercial, is a colon cleaning out commercial without any price, a doctor who I would never go to even if you paid me and the inventor who has so much hair dye that he even put it on his eyebrows. Its really, really scary.
With regards to Britton, I don’t think he stole Joe’s dog. I think Joe doesn’t like him since he isn’t in super shape so he isn’t given him a real look. He has done well the two times he has pitched this week. I don’t care whether or not he has an extra 20 pounds, if he can pitch Joe should send him out there. While I’m talking about weight, maybe they should bring back the candy and ice cream for when the team looks like they are dead. Maybe they just need a sugar rush!
Have fun in Scranton!
Seeing Kasey’s post this a.m. got me thinking about music (those of you not familiar with kasey should hit his name-link and check out some of his work. you will be impressed). From there I went to that line from CSNY’s Carry On: to sing the blues you got to live the dues – and carry on.
Signore Franco is 100% right. The sense of entitlement – which leads to the blame somebody, fire Cashman, trade everyone, win now, mantra – is really too much. Most of this present class of whiners have “suffered” through 13 years of playoffs. My deepest sympathies to you.
Understand how badly built this team was for the last few years because of “win now” decisions and that while it was more successful than almost any other team in MLB over the last 13 years, it has not been a WS franchise for a while. If the Yankees circa 2002 to present prove anything, it’s that you can mash your way to October, but you need pitching to win playoffs and the WS. In a few years – thanks to Cashman redirecting the team focus toward arms – the Yankee team foundation will be as strong as any in baseball, barring injury and stupid, panic trades.
Thus, embrace the current pause in pinstriped world domination. Accept growing pains from Joba and IPK and the next arm that emerges from the minors. Know that the team is being rebuilt with the right focus and take solace in the knowledge that great things lie ahead. The next time somebody wants to make a panic trade or fire Cashman or Girardi, take a deep breath, stifle the urge and instead pay your dues.
Murphydog, looking at the last few seasons, do you think the Yankees will be injury free? Way too many injuries with this team.
Any chance that MLB can increase the Hawkins suspension to as many games that are now left in the season ? ( I can DREAM, can’t I ??? )
It was a very tough outing for Joba for a few reasons…..
1) Jose Molina dropped a foul tip strikeout in the first inning
2) The Umpire was DEFINITELY not your typical umpire…he was calling NOTHING on the black.
3) Jobas Balk in the 1st was the only reason that run even scored. (I still dont see it)
4) Jobas 2nd run given up (Although Unearned) was thanks to a bad throw by Jose Molina that went into the OF.
5) Toronto hitters knew that he only had 65 or so pitches to work with and watched pitch after pitch…granted he didnt have the best control…it puts pressure on you as a pitcher regardless. It was a no brainer for toronto to take as many pitches as they could.
Not making excuses…..but runs scored for those reasons alone…..he only gave up 1 hit which was a cheap check shot off rolens bat…and 3 strikeouts (4 if Molina hangs on)
Does anybody think that Posada will help this pitching staff significantly when he comes back?
I can’t believe Joba wen’t through 62 pitches in that short outing. He really needed his command.
One thing I am noticing is that Abreu, Damon and Melky all look like they have put on some weight. That is tough to do during the season. I think Girardi’s dictating what they can eat in the clubhouse is causing them to binge when they are not in there.
Serious, look at Damon and the little paunch he has grown. Same with Abreu, the uniform looks a bit stuffed now.
“Accept growing pains from Joba and IPK and the next arm that emerges from the minors. Know that the team is being rebuilt with the right focus and take solace in the knowledge that great things lie ahead.”
There is no such knowledge, Murph. Replace knowledge with hope or liklihood and you’re in the ballpark.
I believe Hughes and Joba will be terrific, but after that, I’m not confident in anything. Further, other teams currently ahead of the Yankees are loading up in the minors too. Tampa Bay has three arms in Price, McGee and Davis better than anyone in the upper levels of the Yankees system right now. The Red Sox have arguably the best young pitcher in the Eastern League in 21 yr old Michael Bowden to go along with 5 twenty-somethings already contributing to their starting rotation. Hell, even the Orioles have a little something going on as they reap the benefits of the Bedard trade in the person of Chris Tillman, a 20 year old who is 6-0 with a 2.68 in AA.
Yanks are doing good things with their system, and I think they are going about it the right way, but they aren’t doing it in a vacuum.
Burrs: He’s hitting and pulled a triple out of his ass yesterday…if hes binging its working. (Damon)
Murphydog,
Right on. Folks need to accept that the Yankees are rebuilding. Atleast for this year and next.
They’re rebuilding in a way that a $200 million payroll permits you to do… in that they’ll probably win close to 90 games each year… and may even squeak into the playoffs. But until the pitching staff is reinvented, there won’t be any parades in the Canyon of Heroes for this team. We are well on the way in that respect and I’m excited to see these kids join the team and grow over the next couple of years.
We’ve also got an awful lot of money coming off the books after the end of this year. It will be very interesting to see what happens in that respect.
What made yesterday worse is that Pedro Martinez’s arm didn’t fall off. That ruined my night!
Corey, the point is when Damon gains weight he falls off his game. He loses speed and doesn’t swing as well. My concern is that – yes he is hitting well right now, but that will fall off.
I notice you haven’t said anything about Abreu.
Burrs relax….whether he gained weight or not….he has a moustache now, so hes fine ;-p
That moustache is so he can hide snacks… watch and see how bushy it gets.
“2) The Umpire was DEFINITELY not your typical umpire…he was calling NOTHING on the black.”
When you’re a rookie and all over the place as Joba was, you don’t tend to get the close ones. He was probably a little too geeked up going in, which led to some wildness but his pitching line is consistent with what he did out there.
“5) Toronto hitters knew that he only had 65 or so pitches to work with and watched pitch after pitch…granted he didnt have the best control…it puts pressure on you as a pitcher regardless. It was a no brainer for toronto to take as many pitches as they could.”
Absolutely. May be transparent anyway, but the Yanks would do well not to announce the pitch count to the masses ahead of time. Something like that is the appropriate spot for the bunker mentality Girardi assumed concerning injuries earlier in the year.
Corey
Agreed 100%!! It was almost as if the umps were trying to make it as difficult as possible on Joba.
Russell NY
I think so, I think Jorge knows how to kick the pitchers butts. I wouldn’t be shocked if we see them doing better. I am a huge Jorge fan, but I know some aren’t. It is the old saying, you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. The past 4 weeks without Jorge haven’t been very pretty.
Back from the game…
The game was great, Joba was (about) what I had expected…not what I had hoped for. He was squeezed a bit (I think), but all in all, I think he did well. He used three of his four pitches, mostly FB/slider with a few curves, not real good command of any…but good enough for the first time out. He’ll be alright the next time out.
Giese; was better then I had hoped for, he only has two pitches…but he knows how to pitch and change eye level, with good command.
Jeter; is taking more pitches, it seems as though he is not swinging at the 1st OK pitch, but looking for a ball to drive.
Jason; was really proud of himself with that hit to left. In the dugout one could hear him acting like he had just hit one out. 27/08?
Every young pitcher, even Joba, goes through this when they are transitioning to the rotation.
Four of the Blue Jays five starters (Halliday, Litsch, Marcum and McGowan) transitioned from reliever to starter. How did that turn out? They have one of the best rotations in baseball. They also don’t have to pay 100 million per pitcher to achieve that end.
Its called player development. A concept foreign to many Yankee fans.
It has its ups and its downs but in the long run, it pays off.
This is not a very good team. Perhaps they get better when Jorge gets back. Or, they may just be a team with too many aging players and too many rookies to be very good. Time will tell.
The Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs in 2006. That after getting swept out of the playoffs in 2005. Did they blow out their entire baseball organization? No. They retooled, stuck with their plan, and not only won another championship last year, they are well positioned to be very good for years to come.
Its about building an entire organization. Just not wasting millions on aging players. That’s the track the Yankees are on right now. They just got started a year later than the Red Sox so they are playing from behind at this time.
A year from now Joba Chamberlain will be considered one of the best starting pitchers in baseball. You live with the short term hit for the long term gain.
The kid is too talented not to be an elite starting pitcher.
To get there, he needs to stretch out and that’s happening on the major league level. If other guys can’t step up and fill the void in the bullpen, other players will get the opportunity.
The fantasy some Yankee fans need to get over is, this team is not one or two players away from being a World Series winner.
If you think it is, you are watching the games with Pinstripe Glasses so thick they are affecting your vision.
This team is so flawed, it makes it the perfect time to transition into the future.
In the meantime, they make a run at the playoffs, consider that gravy.
Either way, they have to retool this club and this is the year to do it. Even if that means sacrificing the playoffs.
“When you’re a rookie and all over the place as Joba was, you don’t tend to get the close ones. He was probably a little too geeked up going in, which led to some wildness but his pitching line is consistent with what he did out there.”
I agree. The only thing was that Halladay was also getting squeezed. Extremely tight strike zone last night. That combined with the willingness to take pitches by the Blue Jays spelled disaster.
Fredo Corleone:
True, this isn’t happening in a vacuum. The AL East is getting to be the AL Beast again. But the Yankees are in danger of falling way behind instead of being able to keep up or pull away.
Once they are solid in the pitching department, I think the other parts are going to come. Don’t forget that they will still outspend anyone on the planet. The outsized spending that is their trademark will allow them to do things the Rays and others can’t or won’t. They have always spent lots of money, they just haven’t spent it smart so it hasn’t worked out to their advantage on a dollar for dollar basis. IMO, if they establish pitching first, then their spending has a better chance to provide the additional pieces needed.
Be Ge Burrs:
“Murphydog, looking at the last few seasons, do you think the Yankees will be injury free? Way too many injuries with this team.”
It’s an older team, so there is more of an injury risk. But injuries are up all around MLB. Don’t know exactly what that’s about, whether it’s fallout from years of widespread PEDs use or not.
Leiter commented on the strike zone moving alot last night. Girardi in the post game referred to Joba as just missing and being right around the zone which was his PC way of saying he was getting squeezed.
I think its more to do with the training they are getting. Too much building of strength without having the proper underlying support for that strength.
Most of these strength and conditioning coaches don’t understand the body. Physical Therapists would be better choices than a lot of these guys, as they understand how the muscles work and build and get injured.
While some may be age, that doesn’t explain it all. Too many younger players are getting injured as well.
Even Hughes with his hamstring last year and rib this year are things that should have been preventable. Hughes isn’t old.
The problem is that youth doesn’t guarantee the player will end up being any good. For every Ryan Braun (who I see in Milwaukee) who was good from day 1 in the majors, there are countless guys that never make it and are total flops.
Ramirez looks like a flop. And he’s in tears after every bad outing.
Veras looks like a flop.
Kennedy looks like a flop.
Hughes looks very marginal.
Melky looks just OK, but nowhere near an impact player.
Just because a player is young doesn’t come close to meaning success in a few years.
Good news that Jorge is ready to come back. He knows and handles the pitching staff really well and that can only help the staff. I noticed a few times on the broadcast they would show Jorge conferencing with Molina and the starting pitcher in the dugout between innings. He also adds another bat to the line-up and with him being a switch hitter, Girardi can break up the lefties even more. The entire line-up will be back intact and hopefully this will help the Yanks score runs.
Murph:
Agree somewhat. The outspending everyone on the planet loses some steam in my eyes when you consider how many of the young stars have been locked up long term by their teams. That annual list of free agents we look at will not be full of names as appealing as those that have appeared on lists past.
I think, due in no small part to the PED crackdown (I’m thinking greenies in particular), baseball has become a young man’s game. As all teams have 6 years of control over their young players and, as noted above, revenue sharing has allowed many of the smaller market teams to sign up their youngsters even longer than that, I see the free agency market being less and less appealing.
Pete,
The natives are restless and they want Cashman’s head on a platter. Deep down inside, I think the Yankee Brass knew it was a distinct possiblity that this team will struggle with this young pitching. However, I’m sure they’re surprise that their offense is medicore at best. Cashman probably hoped the offense would carry them until the young pitching gets their legs under them. So much for Cashman’s plan going to hell in a hand basket.
Anyhow, Cashman and the Steinbrenner sons need to stay the course because it’s imperative that next season they have a much improved ballclub.
Brad – where to play Gardner if you’re recommending he be called up? Replace Melky? Sit Damon or Matsui?
Per Cashman’s latest radio interview, Gardner just doesn’t have a place on this team right now:
1) he’s lefthanded
2) he’s an outfielder
We have enough of those.
And to call him up to sit on the bench and pinch-run will just retard his growth, I think.
Still, good to see he’s doing well.
They need to sign Bonds and tarde for Griffey Jr.
Then in the offseason, sign Tex, CC and trade Damon for K-Rod (to set-up Rivera) and then trade a bunch of lowly AA prospects for Santana. I bet the Mets would do it.
Oh yeah, fire Cashman… Its all his fault. Girardi too… See if Mr. T will come back.
*********************************
Signed,
Yankees fans who started watching after 1996 – to – current
(Wish y’all we’re around for ’83 through ’92!
Bunch of babys. SJ, Franco, I completely agree. This is the last year of a few contracts that should have ended a while ago. Why go out and lock up a bunch of players for what they did in Cleveland and Texas/Atlanta to six and seven year deals at $20M per?
Lets build something from within. It doesn’t happen overnight.
As Franco, a fellow paisan will agree, Rome wasn’t built in a day.
BOO FICKLE YANKEES FANS ! BOOOOOO !!!!
“Brad – where to play Gardner if you’re recommending he be called up? Replace Melky? Sit Damon or Matsui?”
I say sit Melky and see how Gardner does for a little bit.
Its why guys like Austin Jackson are as valuable to this franchise as Joba Chamberlain.
A kid like Austin, a position player with huge upside, saves this franchise millions of dollars by being able to make it as an everyday player. He’s on track to do so.
He has made HUGE strides in the last year toward being a very good major league player. If he continues on that track, he will end up as a star (as Reggie Jackson believes) in MLB very soon.
Long term, the Yankees are fine. Guys like Joba, Jackson, Tabata (either by trading him or developing him), Melancon, Betances, McAllister, and Montero, to name a few, have really big futures.
They are elite level prospects. I also put Hughes in that catagory. He is going to be a very good starting pitcher.
The nucleus is there. Its just a matter of filling in the holes intelligently and having some patience.
In the meantime, you live with the flaws of the current group and hope they can make a run this year.
That however, is up to the veterans. For what they are being paid, one would think they would muster better efforts each night than we have seen so far this season.
Pat- Agreed, that is exactly what I thought when Joe said it.
As stated previously by a few posters.
The yankees have realized that they are funding their competition via the Luxury tax. They intend to stop this unsound practice. They will dump 60mm in salaries at the end of this year, while developing their young players. Next year they will be one further year along and under the cap. Then when other teams, i.e. tampa can no longer afford to pay their young stars the yankees will step in and pick them up. leading to a team of homegrown stars and poached stars. arod will be the consistent yankee throughout this process.
“The yankees have realized that they are funding their competition via the Luxury tax.”
Yankees are NOT funding any competition with luxury tax.
Luxury tax and revenue sharing are different things. Luxury tax money is a drop in the bucket. Revenue sharing dollars (TV/radio deals, etc)are where the big money is.
SJ – would you compare Ajax to a young Torii Hunter? I’ve heard that comparison before.
Hunter was 25 before he really started playing regularly and had an offensive impact.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....statType=1
I think there’s a misconception on this board that the young Yankees will be competitive in 2009 or even 2010.
I’m more comfortable in saying that the Yanks will be competitive again AFTER 2010.
(Imagine the struggles a 21-22 outfielder will have against Tampa’s rotation for the next 2-3 years.)
” I think Girardi’s dictating what they can eat in the clubhouse is causing them to binge when they are not in there. ”
So they’re eating 11 number 5′s from McDonalds everyday in between game time because they can’t eat any candy in the clubhouse?
SJ:
Reading some scuttlebut that the ’09 draft is so weak that teams who fall out of it (say, the Indians) will look to trade a pending free agent (say, Sabathia) this year rather than let him go in the offseason for draft picks in a poor draft.
You hearing anything like that?
“Corey, the point is when Damon gains weight he falls off his game. He loses speed and doesn’t swing as well. My concern is that – yes he is hitting well right now, but that will fall off.”
You do realize that he’s having one of the best seasons of his career right now.
SJ
“For what they are being paid, one would think they would muster better efforts each night than we have seen so far this season.”
Do you really believe the veterans on the team are not giving 100% effort or that bank accounts are the reason for lack of success?
hello all
with the weather being what it is, how likely will the game be played tonight?
Fredo Corleone
Good point Fredo,
will the Yankee revenue be sheilded from the carrying cost of the new stadium, i.e. interest and operating costs?
if so then no luxury and diminished revenue sharing will be substantial.
Vrsce:
I believe the Yankees do catch some sort of break on revenue sharing as a result of the new stadium, but I am not familiar with the details.
Weather in the Bronx should clear up way before game time.
I liked what Harlan said in Sam Borden’s article to Joba, just be himself. That’s exactly what he needs to do, he has the right tools around him to guide his way with the likes of Girardi, Eiland and the other veteran pitchers. Good advice.
Wow… Listening to Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless discuss Joba is enough to make me want to jump out of a window.
Skip said (in effect) that Joba could possibly someday be a decent #2 or #3 starter, but he won’t be Josh Beckett the first week of June.
Both agreed that it was a terrible idea to switch a reliever to a starter, and Smoltz is effectively the only one to ever do it successfully.
Apparently neither of them realize he WAS a starter in college and the minors.
Disappointing. You think ESPN would get people on their network to discuss sports that actually get the facts correct.
But, S. A. Smith is a known Yankees fan. Maybe just when they are winning…
Skip Bayless to the sports world = Bin Laden to the world…
I hate the Cold Pizza/First Take too. It makes me angry to watch.
Especially now that Woody Paige is gone.
Fredo,
I’m hearing the same thing re: the ’09 Draft.
Except for my nephew of course, who is draft eligible next year! lol
Pat,
I think the effort of some of the veteran players on this team so far this season has been deplorable.
I’m not talking about running balls out to first base and stuff like that.
I am talking about poor baseball effort. Wasted AB’s, especially with RISP, lack of concentration in the field and on the basepaths, and poor fundamental pitching.
Its really inexcuable to see the same guys making the same mistakes every night. Sadly, its mostly from the veterans.
Edwar stunk it up last night? I can live with that. He’s been solid 13 of 15 outings this year. I’ll take that % anytime.
Robbie Cano continuing to swing at anything around the plate and making half hearted efforts in the field? I can’t live with that.
Guys like Pettitte torching leads in almost every one of his starts? Sorry, I have little patience for that.
Especially when some of these veterans offer opinions on what the organization should do with Joba.
I think they should just keep quiet and worry about themselves. If they do, they will help the team more than they are helping them now.
If this team doesn’t make the playoffs this season, it won’t be because of the kids. It will be because the veterans on the team haven’t done their jobs.
If I was a veteran on this team, I’d be embarrassed about being in last place on June 4. Even with the injuries, rookie transitions, etc., there is no reason for this team to be in last place right now except for the fact the veterans on the team have not played with any level of consistency since Day One.
“I think, due in no small part to the PED crackdown (I’m thinking greenies in particular), baseball has become a young man’s game.”
———————————————————-
I think there is some truth to this, ESPECIALLY with travel for road games, and day games after an evening of travel.
I personally would like to see less travel. This could be done with 5 games series, which would also ‘even things up’, as each series would see all 5 of a teams starters. Since we play ~10 games against a number of teams and 19 games against others, this works out nicely. It means ONE visit to a number of teams, which MLB doesn’t like… but it is better for the game. Quite a lot of travel would be eliminated, and there could be more off days and still a ‘shorter’ season.
Thanks, Pat.
SJ44 @9:43…
Very nice, one pitcher you may have overlooked is Dave Robertson in AAA SWB. I saw him the other night (Rochester) his line was 2.1 innings 2H/6SO. SWB numbers 8H/2ER/9BB/21/SO, not bad for a guy nobody know of last year.
E. Duncan is starting to put it together at SWB also. Of course we all know Brett is going great guns.
Projections for next (and 2010) are looking better, but the one thing we will miss the most is the big bang. We will have less power, (hopefully) offset by much more speed, better defence, better pitching. The pitching part is my only…maybe. The young do tend to struggle a bit, but the talent is there to be had. 27/08?
so just when I was going to rip his manhood I read CJ Henry is about a week away from returning to the Tampa Yankees the collision w/ Tim Battle made it impossible for him to rotate his neck for a long time he stayed in XST here is hoping for a full healthy season from him.
Fredo,
If they can reduce their revenue by the interest and operating costs of the new stadium they will be saving a bundle .
The new stadium cost 1.3billion.In addition to the public subsidies and billions of dollars of increased revenue, the Yankees will benefit from a change to Major League Baseball’s 2002 collective bargaining agreement (CBA), which allows teams to deduct new-stadium building costs from the revenue-sharing payments they make. For the Yankees, whose $200 million player payroll makes them the largest contributor to the revenue-sharing pool, this means 40 percent of their share of the price tag may be borne by the remaining 29 baseball teams. All told, the Yankees and the taxpayers can each expect to pay about $450 million, and the Yankees will cover the remaining costs from diverting revenue sharing payments that would have been paid to the other baseball teams. (From Wiki).
So the yankees will not be funding other teams to anywhere close to the same extenr
Sit Melky, bring up Gardner!
was taking a look at the numbers from the Jays starting pitchers and was blown away. the yanks starters are not even in the same universe. pettite has been such an enourmous dissapointment this season. im not too familiar with the bible, but since pettite really seems to enjoy reading it perhaps this a chapter or two in there that can help him to not suck?
” Who thought that that on June 4 that Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Joba Chamberlain would have only 16 starts and no wins? But it’s the only way that makes sense. Suffer now, celebrate later.”
that would be like saying that a sportswriter a year or two out of college should start writing for the new york times without gaining experience somewhere else first. i think peter paid his dues and is still paying his dues before he hits the peak of his profession.
why would anyone think that the new york times would have to “suffer now,celebrate later” ? the yankees are no different. get the best veterans available and work in a rookie or two a year .
anymore than that and they become the equivalent of podunk times.
oh yeah, they are right now.
great plan you have there cashman.
i do have to hand it too him that it’s a clever plan in that there’s no accountability in the present because that’s pushed off for two to three years.
Its a “process” blah blah blah blah. This is a transition year, blah blah blah blah. Thats all we hear from New Joe and Cashman. I didnt notice that they lowered the ticket prices because we were going to tank this year in favor of “the process” The simple truth is that any plan that includes Hawkins and Farnsworth as your key men in the pen and Hughes and Kennedy as your key starters is having no plan at all. Also is it a “process’ to get “murders row and Canoe” to hit with RISP? How about changing Mariano into a starter since he will have nothing to do. Hey we can start another “proces” blah blah blah blah
Paulie,
As explained above, it is all about the money.
Then give away your ticket and shut up, I’m pretty sure there is someone who would love to take your seat in Yankee Stadium.
sj-
what was the cape team again that you nephew is playing on? i want to make sure to see one of his games.
John Smoltz is about to retire, the end of a gamer
Ticket prices have nothing to do with payroll. Ticket prices are a product of supply and demand. Yankee tickets have become the hottest ticket in town the last 4 years.
Going to games are now more of an event than ever in the history of the franchise and it has nothing to do with payroll.
When the Yankees won in the 70′s and struggled in the 80′s they still had the highest payroll in the league.
Yet, nobody came to the games. It wasn’t ticket prices. It was low supply and demand.
If you want to complain about the team, that’s fine.
Just try to understand baseball economics before doing so.
It is a transition year. Whether you want to believe it or not.
If it wasn’t, they would have added more than just LeTroy Hawkins in the off-season.
Randy,
He’s playing for Yarmouth-Dennis this summer.
SJ
I guess where we differ is that I see a difference between lack of effort and lack of results. Wanting results and being capable of achieving them are 2 different things no matter what you are paid.
This team is underperforming because the blend they were hoping for hasn’t happened. No wins for Kennedy and Hughes has been as big a problem as Andy not holding leads. Mussina has to have exceeded all expectations but Wang has undershot them. The bullpen can best be described as sticking a bandaid on something and just hoping for the best until hopefully someone excels in the minors. There will always be a veteran component to any Yankee team but they were also counting on some of the kids to step up in order for this to be a successful year.
For business reasons, the Yanks will not admit this is a rebuilding year, but that is what it is.
Brandon…
Good shot, I was about to say something myself. Those guys harp on everything all the time, but without GOOD answers to the problems they bring up…except; Cash, Joe G., Cano, Johnny, Jason etc., must go. Where do they go and what do we replace them with, how about all the $$$ we lose etc.? They bring on more problems then they cure. 27/08?
we need to fill our bullpen hole fast!!! before it will be too late!!
I don’t see it as a rebuilding year. It’s more of a vets showing their age and the youth movement started too late to pick up the slack year. Injuries, slumps, age… not a good mix for success.
Just can’t stand when the fan feels entitled to harp on everything, oh the Yankees aren’t 1st place I want lower ticket prices…Your buying the ticket, you either made a full commitment for the season or not it’s that simple, what people expect last season at Yankee Stadium to be cheap ? and what happens w/ tickets has nothing to do w/ payroll and what the team puts out there, regardless of that if your not in that seat then someone else will be it’s that simple, me as a fan of the team and someone who didn’t get priviledge but has friends that do own season tickets and we go to the park every once in awhile really have no reason to complain.
You (ticketholders)have an issue w/ ticket pricing, sell your ticket & move on, there are millions of fans in NY who really don’t give a damn about that burden.
“we need to fill our bullpen hole fast!!! before it will be too late!!”
another example of panicking there is no trade market out there, Fuentes is going to be 33 in August are we that much into quick fixing ?
Hey Brandon Blah Blah Blah Its about putting a substandard product on the field and expecting top dollar. –also Farnsworth Home run count 8 in 26 innings and I gues “alex being alex” is watching the third stirke go by with two on and two out in the 9th last night–blah blah blah
The sense of entitlement is comical. “They aren’t in first place so lower ticket prices”. That makes sense.
They gave you a team with a 209 million dollar payroll, the highest in the sport.
Unfortunately, and its a lesson its taken the Yankees 7 years to earn, payroll doesn’t guarantee you anything.
You still have to play the games.
Last I checked nobody is forcing you to buy tickets or watch the games.
If you don’t want to watch the team or buy tickets, its your choice.
They don’t however, owe you a discount.
Paulie I could careless about you right now, I pray there is something to your liking of the games you attend. You strike me as a bandwagon fan, believe it or not at one point the Yankees wasn’t the team to beat. BLAH BLAH BLAH
Paulie
If you see the product as substandard you have the choice to not pay to see it or not watch it. Your contribution of fandom or cash won’t make them win more or less.
The ticket issue is one that’s interesting for New York. They can always jack up prices because so many New Yorkers have an absurd amount of money and will pay. An issue I have with the new stadium is the prices. If you sit upstairs behind home plate it’s a “premium seat” and they’re going to charge $100.
“The Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs in 2006. That after getting swept out of the playoffs in 2005. Did they blow out their entire baseball organization? No. They retooled, stuck with their plan, and not only won another championship last year, they are well positioned to be very good for years to come.
Its about building an entire organization. Just not wasting millions on aging players. That’s the track the Yankees are on right now. They just got started a year later than the Red Sox so they are playing from behind at this time.”
After the Red Sox missed the playoffs in 2006 they didn’t “stick to their plan”. They spent HUGE amounts of money on Matsuzaka, Lugo, and Drew. Now the truth is they won the 2007 world series despite those players not because of them. Don’t make it out like the Red Sox had some master plan that they executed perfectly and therefore won a world series.
I think a good example of a team that has stayed the course and stuck to a solid plan of building from within is Arizona. Obviously the Yankees shouldn’t follow that same plan because they have a lot more money to spend than Arizona. They stuck with their minor leaguers but also made trades for outside help when a good opportunity presented itself. Now they are positioned to be good for a long time.
I think the key to a successful team is having a good mix of players. Some expensive free agents, some homegrown players, some role players, etc. A lot of Yankee fans go totally in one direction and say the Yanks should spend, spend, spend. However the fans that go in the opposite direction and think every player should be homegrown are just as wrong as those that think we should buy a world series.
I have been a Yankee fan for over 50 years. It really pisses me off when they contiuue to waste money and more importantly time when other teams seem to quickly get a huge bang for their buck. As a fan I can complain and still watch since thats what fans do especially complain when we are in last place. The Yankees are not the team to beat right now and are playing way below their potental. I am not looking for a discount but just a team that can compete with teams other than the Mariners.
sj
that’s put’s the him in orleans on 6/24 and 6/29. perfect.
for anyone who loves baseball you could build a cape cod vacation around going to cape league games. watching a garciaparra when he’s 137 pounds or a frank thomas when he was twice as big and mature as anyone else,or a billy wagner unleash his first pitches under a national spotlight is just plain fun.
three to four thousand people show up for big games. it’s all pass the hat. fans bring lawn chairs to sit on grassy hills with ocean air all around. little kids are in awe of the players. it’s a tradition with families to go to the games. wood bats. hot dog and ice cream vendors.americana at it’s best
you will definitely see a future mlb player at every game. part of the fun is picking out who that’s going to be.
For those who have such an issue with ticket prices, here’s a link for you. Affordable tickets to Yankee games are available.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....p#cocacola
Joba should 100% be a starter this year, it’s the right move for now and the future. I do however think they had to expedite the move by a month because of Hughes and Kennedy’s sub-par performances and injuries.
The bullpen without Joba is not good. Him down there changes everyting. It allows the other guys to pitch in the 6th and 7th innings where they belong. That being said I really think they would have rather made the move with Joba in July and it would have been ideal. JB Cox will be up in a few weeks and he’ll help out in the 6th and 7th and then a few weeks after that I see Melancon up here as the 8th inning guy. We just have to start playing consistent ball until then and not lose any more ground.
Paulie
Which team do you see as having “quickly” gotten a bang for their buck?
Patrick,
They did stick to their plan. Yes, they went out and signed free agents. Just as the Yankees will do when they find guys that fit their needs.
What they didn’t do was trade their young talent for aging vets. They kept them and now have the proper balance of youth and experience.
I agree with you, balance is the key.
The problem with the Yankees has been its been unbalanced from the youth side. That’s now being corrected.
The veteran side? We’ll see after the season when a lot of money comes off the books.
“I have been a Yankee fan for over 50 years. It really pisses me off when they contiuue to waste money and more importantly time when other teams seem to quickly get a huge bang for their buck. As a fan I can complain and still watch since thats what fans do especially complain when we are in last place. The Yankees are not the team to beat right now and are playing way below their potental. I am not looking for a discount but just a team that can compete with teams other than the Mariners.”
Then you more than anybody should understand it, you’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly years, you lived through the CBS years, you saw what George did, it took nearly 20 yrs. for him to wise up, the team nearly was sent to NJ. Did you see what happened to the LA Angels, LA Dodgers thier payroll isn’t cheap they’ve missed the playoffs a few times these last 7 yrs. but rebuilt thier system. If anything you should be the calming force for the young generation, you have to know that a 1 yr. fix is not a guarantee to win the world series or even make the playoffs, if you build it from the system and stock it you have a better chance at competing.
This is a new era post PEDS and now competitive balance. You need to work in a different way to survive in this new baseball era.
And there are more than one reasons why Joba is a SP aside from that being what he was meant to be.
Andy Pettitte is not young, he’s 36 yrs. old and next season whether he wants to be part of the new stadium and 09′ season is still up in the air. He’s not himself and 09′ is not as of now a guaranteed contract for him.
Mike Mussina is not getting any younger, really no one believes he will be a stud in 09′ no one knows what he will give us after the AS break, his future may soon be done w/ this team.
Wang as many people as I have seen on this board have argued why didn’t the Yankees extend him..well your seeing it, he’s too inconsistant and really he also does not have a guaranteed 09′ season.
So right there you have 3 question marks in the rotation, had Santana been on this roster it still would have been a question mark to what he can continue to give. This is a big reason Joba is starting his process to become a SP, this is why Hughes is not going anywhere, this is why the BP options in the minors will compete for thier shot.
It’s a transition year believe it or not, that is what it is.
I know I was somewhat shot down for bringing this up earlier in the season but when do the Yankees realistically capitulate, admit to rebuilding and start shedding players where possible?
If the draft is as weak as menioned and if you can get current prospects for some of the parts on this team do you do that at the end of this month?
If you can get deals like the Sheffield or Johnson trades (good to very good prospects) for Damon, Abreu, Farnsowrth, Giambi, even Mussina or Pettite. You will not get back tremendous value for everyone, but the non-core or the guys that will not be back you have to shop at some point.
As long as you can stick to the master plan and not rush the prospects. I am absolutely all for bringing up Cox, Melancon and Robertson and think they would be helpful to the big club, I do not want to see their futures jeopardized because they were rushed.
As SJ pointed out earlier the farm system is stocked from top to bottom. We have the first wave of starting pitchers already – which is probablyt he hardest position to make the transition, there are more starters coming, the relief prospects are one day to a couple months away, the position prospects some are close (gardner), some are a year or two (Tabata and Jackson etc), some are a bit further (Almonte and Montero – are these guys in the top five in the Yankees system already. Montero may be top five in baseball).
Randy:
A sportswriter a year or two removed from college should ABSOLUTELY be writing for the New York Times if his talent warrants it.
Can’t blame the Yankees for looking at Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy’s domination of the minors and believing they’d have little to learn down there.
And their success in the big league.
Bad analogy. If you have the talent, you should not be held back by arbitrary things like ‘paying dues’
Joba has to learn that as a starter you do not have to strike everyone out. As a reliever you have enough of a pitch count that you can. But he was getting into too many 0-2 counts where he would then throw too many “perfect pitches” trying for a strike out. You can afford that as a reliever, not as a starter. But from what I saw last night, we are going to have a solid starting pitcher in years to come! Go yanks!
“What they didn’t do was trade their young talent for aging vets. They kept them and now have the proper balance of youth and experience.”
When was the last time the Yankees traded young talent for a veteran? Probably the Randy Johnson trade unless I’m forgetting something. Look at the Red Sox, when was the last time they made a big trade for a veteran? Josh Beckett. The difference isn’t the philosophy, its that the Red Sox traded for the right guy. I have no problem trading young players for veterans as long as the return is good. I’m not sure that Santana for Hughes, Melky, etc would have been a good return, we’ll see in a few years.
The Sox and Yanks have had very similar philosophies over the last 5 or so years. One key difference though is that the Yankees were more hamstrung by big contracts than the Sox and their minor league system was much worse. We have to acknowledge though that the reason the Sox have succeeded isn’t because they have a better philosophy, its because they have made more correct decisions than the Yankees have. Hopefully that will change.
Meant the 2009 draft!
off topic and I usually dont like discussing politics, but….its been a while since I took a history class, but Im prety sure Frederick Douglas, Blanche Kelso Bruce and Victoria Woodhull were all presidential nominees….so I dont understand why people are saying Obmama is the first and Hillary would have been the first had she got the nomination.
Am I completely wrong on this, or is everyone else?
None of those three individuals (Frederick Douglas, Blanche Kelso Bruce and Victoria Woodhull) were the nominee of a major party.
no team sustains a youth movement and wins. the players age. there will always be veteran players who are better than the cheaper 6 year players. cleveland is a good example. sabathia was young and cheap. now he isn’t . so he leaves. cleveland doesn’t get better and better; they peak at a high water mark. they already have peaked . so much for the youth movement.
tampa bay will do the same thing. they may be at a peak already as they sign contracts which some of them will be bad( pena maybe). their players will get older and want more money. they are not going to have it because they don’t have the attendance.
florida has to blow it up every few years to get it all to peak for one year.
with the new baseball parity environment, i don’t know the answer to the best of all possible strategies for winning consistently, but youth
movements alone have built in logical dead ends . the players age.
what do you do with them. cut them loose when they are hitting their best baseball years? how does that get a team the best players. i think the best teams will have mostly players who have completed 6 years in the majors. not all, but most.
veterans usually beat rookies and young players. it’s that simple. players peak at age 27-30. those are the players you want. do you want hughes at 21 or hughes at 27. well ,he’s likely to be a high price free agent at 27. to get a player at his peak is always going to cost money.
you think wang is going to be cheap in two years? the yankees are never going to win when they have “youth movements” going on. it’s a losing philosophy.
Brandon – The Yankees are about two years behind Boston. Their organizational philosphies have become exactly the same. The Sox have also had some luck – Okajima going from Dice-K chearleader to best set-up guy in the league last year, Lowell recovering from some miserable final years in Florida (as the throw in salary dump guy in the Beckett trade). They are also showing some chinks – Ortiz to the DL, Okajima getting hit around, Papelbon not quite as dominant as last year. Away from Fenway there record is terrible.
I think the Yankee are on the perfect track. There will be bumps, but the talent they have on the farm and the coming financial flexibility will make them ver dangerous for a very long time.
Anyone have any opinions on whether they should consider bringing back Abreu for next year? Would he be open to a 1-2 yr deal? We all know his defensive skills are not exactly gold glove, but I dont think he’s as much of a defensive liability as he’s often made out to be.
Even though he doesn’t hit for much power anymore, I still love watching his at-bats, although sometimes I wish he would jump on a first-pitch and drive one out, but the vast majority of the time he makes the pitcher work. Having him bat before A-Rod really helps too.
Does he like NY that much that he’s amenable to a short term deal? I think he’s worth bringing back, and it will give the Yankees some time to wait and see what happens down on the farm.
Jason,
I think you have to give it another month.
If this team is in last place by the 4th of July, you will hear a lot of noise deadline as to whether or not they should be sellers at the trade deadline.
I think another month will tell us whether or not this team is seen by management as being able to make a run.
“It’s a transition year believe it or not, that is what it is.”
Awesome! So they gave up the season to watch ONE player become a starting pitcher! Yes!!
Sorry, this is going to be the excuse next year with Hughes and Kennedy. Not too mention the whole bullpen problem.
The organization gave up the season so we can all enjoy the postseason in 2010 and beyond. Even though we’ve had a chance every year for the past 15 years. Brilliance.
What sane capitalist would ever lower the price of something he has a monopoly on? (Yankees on the price of tickets into their stadium for example)
I like the tone today.
SJ on one point I disagree with you, this team can win now with minor changes..
Joba I believe will be a monster stud, he will be doing his thing in a few weeks..
they need the pen to pick it up a ton and they have options that MAY work. I have no clue if Melancon, COx, Robertson, Edwar, Britton, etc are the answers but I know Kyle and Latroy are not the answers.
Bring up the young guys ASAP and give ita try. What I hear and read is the Yanks have legit legit options that MAY pan out. In years past they had nothing in the minors..
a starting rotation of joba, wang, moose, pettite, and whoever is a decent rotation.. there lineup should be GREAT.. Guys like Cano(terrible) need to play to expectations not better just to what they should perform.
this team is not that bd.. they can rebuild and win at the same time because they have so many good pitching options in the minors..
There will be no good veterans becoming free agents at age 27. Hughes will be under yankee control when he is 27. Not a high priced free agent. Teams are buying out the first 2 to 3 years of free agency from all the good young players. What are we going to be able to get? 32 year old hitters in their decline.
Players get better and peak in their late 20′s, we need Hughes’ production in those years leading up to it because they are going to be better than anything a free agent can give us.
Watching the Smoltz press conference I seem to think this will be it for him shoulder surgery at his age then having to go through the rehab and come back is a tall order for him.
“Awesome! So they gave up the season to watch ONE player become a starting pitcher! Yes!!”
Eugie, are you serious?
They didn’t “give up the season.” What they did was they refused to make moves that might help this year if they would adversely affect them down the road.
They have a ton of money coming off the books after this year. They have a ton of young pitchers who they need to see if they can do the job. So, in 2008, we get Joba in the rotation, we started the year with Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation, and we didn’t give 7 years to Santana, or, even worse, a Pavano-like deal to somebody like Kyle Loshe.
Put another way, for the frist time since the 1990s, the Yanks are being smart about building a winner.
As fans, we should rejoice.
Seriously, do you really think they were a Santana or a Joba in the 8th inning away from winning the World Series?
I find it funny that everyone in the media said there was “no way” that Joba could sustain his stuff as a starter. He certainly seemed to have no problem throwing 94-98 consistently for 60+ pitches yesterday, and it looked like his fastball had a good amount of late life as well throughout. It may take a while for everyone to realize that Joba has more talent than maybe any other pitcher in the big leagues right now. I’m trying not to get my hopes too high, but barring injury, I think Joba has more than enough talent to become the next Clemens / Pedro / Santana.
brandon the last 3 games could have been won if he had a solid bullpen guy!!! whats the big deal of losing this 3 games ?! we are under 500 insted of being over 500! we are in last place and 7 games out insted of being in 3rd place!!!!! as the saying goes ITS GETTING LATE EARLY!!!!
Questions:
1. If the Yanks decide to make some vets available at the deadline, of them all, who would be the top 3 most attractive candidates to other teams?
2. A young Torii Hunter may be a fair comparison for Ajax. Hunter though did not regularly contribute offensively until he was 25. Is it really fair to expect Ajax to contribute to this team by even as early as 2010? Talk about growing pains this year – imagine this poor kid facing Tampa, Boston and other top AL hurlers while he’s 23-25 years old.
3. Tabata appears to be homesick/lost/depressed/immature. I’m not sure what constitutes a player’s “makeup”, but I would include those I guess. At what point do the Yankees decide to make him available? Toughest part of a GM’s job – trying to sell high. Tabata appears to be one long slump away from falling apart.
4. Anyone know Melancon’s innings cap for this year?
5. If Teixeira is signed, what possible positions could Montero play, if he’s in the bigs by 2010? (scouts claim he’s not a catcher)
“Awesome! So they gave up the season to watch ONE player become a starting pitcher! Yes!!”
hey no one saids you can’t win in a transition year either, but if Joba Chamberlain becomes a 20+ game winner for the next 15 yrs. then guess what those guys are rare. It’s a frustrating time this year trust me even I’ve been tested w/ my patience but you can’t get into this win at all costs thing otherwise all you do is pause your future, you yourself said it “we’ve had a chance every year for the past 15 years.” and there are many teams that can’t say that.
People are idiots. They don’t read scouting reports, which say that Joba hits 97 in the 7th, and they don’t pay attention. They see Joba come up as a reliever, and then when the change is made they have to struggle to find reasons why he won’t be good.
“Well he throws 97 as a reliever, so obviously he’ll sit 92 as a starter!!!!”
Its ridiculous. I could NOT , absolutely COULD NOT believe Al Leiter said that Joba was going to sit 93-95 as a starter. Based on nothing but his opinion.
“When was the last time the Yankees traded young talent for a veteran?”
Bobby Abreu?
We lost the last 3 games because of our bullpen? Oh yea?
What about:
Wang – 5 ER , gave up every lead
Pettitte – 5 ER, gave up every lead
Last game – Well you have a point here, but the game was already done before the 8th inning.
Bullpen needs shoring, but its the least of what needs addressing
randy
What you wrote is similiar to a thought I had the other day.
Yanks don’t have many core players in the prime years of their careers (28-30 years old) The only 2 that might be considered difference makers are Wang and Cano and neither were acquired through the draft. That certainly doesn’t speak glowingly about who the Yankees drafted or what they did with those picks.
“The organization gave up the season so we can all enjoy the postseason in 2010 and beyond. Even though we’ve had a chance every year for the past 15 years. Brilliance.”
Is today June 4th or September 4th. I didn’t realize the season was over already. I must have been in a coma for the past 3 months. There are over 100 games left to play. I’ll wait to see where the team is when they have their full complement of everyday players for more than 3 games before I declare the season is over.
“brandon the last 3 games could have been won if he had a solid bullpen guy!!! whats the big deal of losing this 3 games ?! we are under 500 insted of being over 500! we are in last place and 7 games out insted of being in 3rd place!!!!! as the saying goes ITS GETTING LATE EARLY!!!!”
You don’t think I know that ? You think I get pleasure from seeing Farnsy as my savior or LAtroy Hawkins crying in postgames about how he should have kept the ball down ? your viewing it too closely, there are more games that our offense and SP has cost us instead of the latter, that’s not gonna change we loss more games because the SP struggled 15 starts between Kennedy and Hughes and they have yet to have a decisioned win on record. Those games are gone we can’t get them back which is why this season is and will be one of toughest but you need to calm down, this !!!!!!!!!!!!~!~~~
….doesn’t help
Jerkface, agreed. I knew that Joba was able to hit 100 in the 7th inning in the minors, and who am I? Nobody. But somehow no one in the media was aware of this and all claim he would “only” be throwing 92-94 as a starter. Even when he lobs it in there at 93, his fastball looks explosive.
In case anyone is interested:
Mariano Rivera will be making an appearance at the Cross County Center Macy’s store in Yonkers Thursday night at 7.
“it’s that simple. players peak at age 27-30. those are the players you want.”
Agreed. The question is how do you get those players.
One of the yankees biggest problems for years is that they’ve had so few players who play for the team from the age 25-30.
How many players have played straight from 25-30 for the yankees over the past decade since Jeter, Posdad, etc?
Cano and Wang will be the first since that group.
This is also the problem with signing free agents.
It’s great to sign a guy at the age of 28 or 29 – initially.
But you’re getting him at his peak. So you know before hand that for most of the years of his contract you are going to have him during the decline phase of his career.
But the only way to get players who are 25-30 on your team now is to develop them internally.
To sign 29 year old free agents for 6-7 year deals – which is the shape of the deal both CC and Tex will get – is to know that you are paying form past performance and living with future decline.
Eric it’s called not doing thier HW
“brandon the last 3 games could have been won if he had a solid bullpen guy!!! whats the big deal of losing this 3 games ?! we are under 500 insted of being over 500! we are in last place and 7 games out insted of being in 3rd place!!!!! as the saying goes ITS GETTING LATE EARLY!!!!”
Just because you use exclamation points after every sentence doesn’t mean that you say has any more validity.
raymagnetic so you don’t want to give up on the season!!!!!the Yanks have had there whole lineup for at least 5 games this season….
why are you not acting like a spoiled impatient yankee fan like 1000′s????After all Melancon, cox, bruney, abeledajo, robertson, edwar, veras, britton are all 35 or older, washed up, and have no chance of improving or ever having a positive impact on the team….
these yo yo fans love the days of hammond(35 + when they got him), or quantrall(pitched 8- + games 4 straight yrs before the yanks got him and was 36 or older0, the fans love the old guys on the downside of there career.
maybe the Yanks can add 3 years to each of the young guys birth certificate to make yankee fans feel more comftorable…
“But you’re getting him at his peak. So you know before hand that for most of the years of his contract you are going to have him during the decline phase of his career.”
It seems that a large part of the pain of that is the backloaded nature of the typical contract (or they’re evenly distributed over the years like Matsui/Mo/Posada).
Any idea why we don’t see frontloaded contracts more often? Only one I’ve seen so far is A-Rod’s.
“Just because you use exclamation points after every sentence doesn’t mean that you say has any more validity.”
Well ray that’s obvious.
Don’t you know that’s what all of the capitalizations are for?
It’s the capitalization that makes the assertion more valid. Doesn’t everyone know that?
jerkface-
1.if joba is in the bullpen pettitte wouldnt pitched so far in the game and we would have the lead!
2.last night you saw what our bullpen is capeable of doing make a tight game a blow out!!!
Raymagnetic –
Good points. It’s hard to keep the full season in perspective when it’s early.
When you do the math, things don’t look terrible, I guess.
BUT, the Yanks need to play from here on out at a 20 games over .500 clip to get to 90 wins.
62-42 is what they need to reach that 90 number (with the play of Boston and Tampa is no ticket into October)
It’ll be tough.
THe reason you should get somebody at their peak is you know you are getting at least 3-4 years out of 6-7 contract of great pitching or hitting.That should be enough time to have Hughes,Chamberlain and others to work through their stuff.
You can’t have all prospects on your team.Or you end up like the Rays having to wait 10 years to actually play good.
Get Sabtahia he at least can give you 2000 innings enough to take Hughes and Joba innings next year.
CB or SJ my old friend from GW Angel Salome (Mil) is in AA he’s a catcher I haven’t followed him in some time how is he doing defensively ?
“1.if joba is in the bullpen pettitte wouldnt pitched so far in the game and we would have the lead!”
how about Andy not holding the lead on 3 seperate occassions show why Joba’s future is as a SP
“2.last night you saw what our bullpen is capeable of doing make a tight game a blow out!!!”
Edwar had a bad game, Hawk (that’s another story)
Stuart maybe I should give up on the season right now. The Yankees should at least have 50 wins this season.
CB, I’m going to start typing in all caps and ending each sentence with an exclamation point. That way everyone will know I know everything and they know NOTHING!
the rays will not be there at the end no way..
look at there lineup(navarro will not hit 350 and SS RF, 2B, and 3B are not exactly murderers row)and if you think edwin jackson and garza will keep it up you are delusional.
the jays with there pitching are more of a challenge but there lineup stinks..
if the yanks win 92 they should make the playoffs and the yanks can easily win 92 games with minor tweaking to this team(2 or 3 minor league arms for the pen) who pitch fairly well.
raymagnetic- i use the exclamation marks to show you that if you hear from me what i wrote your ears would be busted!!!!!!!
brandon- your right that not everything is on the bullpen, but im saying that in order to go somewhere this season we need a reliable guy there.
“Any idea why we don’t see frontloaded contracts more often? Only one I’ve seen so far is A-Rod’s.”
The issue of frontloading vs. back loading contracts seems to be largely misunderstood.
Teams are not stupid by back loading contracts. In fact it’s generally a huge economic advantage to do so. Players lose a lot of money with back loaded contracts.
Its all related to the discount rate of future earnings. A dollar you earn tomorrow is not as valuable as a dollar you earn today. Conversely, a dollar you have to pay someone tomorrow isn’t as valuable as the dollar you have to pay them today.
Why? Two reason – inflation and the opportunity cost of investing.
Let’s take a look at Giambi’s contract (I know it hurts to look at as ugly as it is – but it’s a good example).
They are paying him an ungodly $23M this year – the highest amount for any year of his 7 year deal.
Were the yankees stupid in doing that given his age, etc? No – not at all. In fact they made out like badits.
Think about it this way – how much has the U.S. Dollar fallen in value from 2001 to 2007? It’ plummeted. How much has inflation gone up since 2001 – a lot.
So the $23M the yankees are paying him now is worth much, much less than it would have been in 2001.
At the same time, by waiting to pay him his highest annual salary, the yankees save marginal dollars that they can use to invest – they can plow that money back into the team, they can invest in the stock market, or even earn interest on it in a bank.
Front loading a contract almost never makes sense – the reason the yankees did it with ARod is likley related to the new stadium and the implications it has on revenue sharing.
David Cone’s Labrum,
I’m not saying that it’ll be an easy road for the Yankees to make the playoffs this year because it won’t be by any stretch of the imagination.
I’m just refusing to believe that on June 4th the season is a failure. The team needs to have at least 20 games in a row with their full lineup playing every game. The scoring has improved dramatically with the return of A-Rod to the lineup, I’m expecting even more of an improvement once Jorge comes back. Hopefully Jorge has a hot streak in him as soon as he returns.
Joba wouldn’t have been in the game in Minnesota in the 7th inning. When Pettitte blew the lead for the third time that evening.
“hey no one saids you can’t win in a transition year either, but if Joba Chamberlain becomes a 20+ game winner for the next 15 yrs. then guess what those guys are rare. It’s a frustrating time this year trust me even I’ve been tested w/ my patience but you can’t get into this win at all costs thing otherwise all you do is pause your future, you yourself said it “we’ve had a chance every year for the past 15 years.†and there are many teams that can’t say that.”
cmon, they’re not going to win with that pen. They’re not even trying to find an answer to it.
As far as Joba, I still don’t see the trade off of worth for just one player.
Right now, we’ll be wasting probably 2 years of Mariano Rivera and guess what? He’s not immortal, we’re going to need a new closer soon.
I do think this team has a bad mix of players. They are atrocious with runners in scoring position, and that’s been a trend over the last several years. I’m sorry, I don’t think that’s just bad luck or happenstance. Given the talent level, they are a horrible situational hitting team.
I’ve seen repeatedly from a lot of posters that the team should resign Abreu because there isn’t anyone else out there on the free agent market. I’m firmly against that.
What kind of a contract is it going to take? He’s not going to resign for one or even two years. It’s going to take three or four to get it done. Does anyone really want a 38-year old RF? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Mix in his declining walk rate and .OBP, which have always been two of his premium values, and that’s a bad deal.
And I could not disagree more with not bringing up Gardner. What value does Melky bring you as an offesnive player, exactly? Mediocre .OBP, no power – what am I missing?
Gardner is 25, and has adjusted to and excelled at every level where he’s played. He is a prototypical leadoff man, great speed and .OBP, who for now could be slotted in at the 9 hole and give this team a huge lift.
Melky is a fourth outfielder, that’s his ceiling. He is a solid, but not great defender with no speed, who’s really not good at any offensive aspect of the game.
stuart – disagree with you on the Rays.
I think they’re for real. They do everything well.
Only possible chink in their armor is closer
No team in the AL does everything well.
And if they promote David Price as a situational lefty in September, you can shut the door.
I think it’s Boston we should concern ourselves with right now.
2 playoff spots are coming out the East this year, and I think the Rays will be one of them.
“cmon, they’re not going to win with that pen. They’re not even trying to find an answer to it.”
Eugie,
All season the Yankees have been aggresive with their minor league promotions of relief pitchers. Just because they’re not looking to trade for a reliever doesn’t mean they’re not looking for answers.
“Joba wouldn’t have been in the game in Minnesota in the 7th inning. When Pettitte blew the lead for the third time that evening.”
No he wouldn’t have been but neither would have pettitte. Joba would have come in the 8th.
” Hughes will be under yankee control when he is 27. Not a high priced free agent. ”
how do you figure that? one cheap year has already clicked away at age 21. counting on my fingers makes him a free agent at age 26.
“No he wouldn’t have been but neither would have pettitte. Joba would have come in the 8th.”
and the offense still wouldn’t score. Then you deal w/ Joe Nathan vs Mariano Rivera..still nothing..then what ?
CB: At a rough level, I sorta get it
But I’m having trouble reconciling it with the notion that either way, they still spent x over y years. Another thing I was thinking of is that frontloaded contracts would probably be easier to trade/eat in the later years if necessary, to help alleviate the roster inflexibility they impose.
“Eugie,
All season the Yankees have been aggresive with their minor league promotions of relief pitchers. Just because they’re not looking to trade for a reliever doesn’t mean they’re not looking for answers.”
They’re not. Girardi is commited to Farnsworth in the 8th. He’s said so himself.
if melancon, cox, and robertson fail then they have limited internal options for the pen..
when or if that happens I will admit it until then the yanks have legit internal bullpen options..
Brandon,
I’m not familiar with your friend. But here’s a great site on Brewer’s prospects (also great for the draft as a whole):
http://www.brewerfan.net/
They may have some info.
Another good brewers minor league site:
http://www.brewcrewball.com/
“and the offense still wouldn’t score. Then you deal w/ Joe Nathan vs Mariano Rivera..still nothing..then what ?”
?? Well the game would be over because Pettitte would have never given up a run in the 7th.
“Another thing I was thinking of is that frontloaded contracts would probably be easier to trade/eat in the later years if necessary, to help alleviate the roster inflexibility they impose.”
This is sort of true. But they could also just eat the differnce in the money.
Let me try one more example to be concrete and show what a huge economic advantage backloading is for the team.
In 2002 the first year of Giambi’s contract he made $10 millio. In 2007 he is making $23 million. (both those figures include his prorated signing bonus).
So they paid him $13M less of his guaranteed money in 2001.
Just off the top of my head, I’d guess the U.S. dollar has fallen 30-40% in value between 2001 and 2008.
Just think about that – by backloading that $13M they probably saved at least $4M in term of real dollars.
And then consider how much the stock market went up from 2001 to 2008. If they took that $13M and invested it in the market they would have made a lot of money.
Hmm, I’m starting to get it. Thanks for taking the time to explain.
” Teams are buying out the first 2 to 3 years of free agency from all the good young players”
that’s the trend this year, but that doesn’t mean forever because some of these contracts will become bad contracts ( maybe cano) and teams may shy away from them.
at some point ,as veterans lose jobs not because they aren’t better , but because they aren’t cheaper, they will decide the 6 year rule is not a good idea.
it was the players union and marvin miller who liked the idea of the 6 year rule because they thought it increased the free agent prices.
there will always be market changes in the system.
there is no one plan that will work even in a constrained marketplace. there will always be new trends. what works this year won’t work three years from now.
i think that whatever works in a given year , the yankees should be on top of it. they do, as blargh says, have a monopoly in new york. joe malloy the pe teacher was able to set up the yankees for their championship run. it doesn’t take a genius when you have all that new york city money at your finger tips.
there’s no excuse for not making the playoffs right now in this environment. if cashman and girardi can’t do it ,get someone who can.
Now wait just a minute, i agree that they had plenty of time to invest money not paid to him in 2001 and use the investment return from the last 8 years to pay the extra 13 million due to him this year but i don’t get you arguement about the US dollar falling 30 to 40%. We all live in the US (obviously) and are paid in US curency, so even though the value of the US dollar is falling in other countries it has little impact on the value of Giambi’s contract. yes i get that the cost of gas, food, goods goes up, but i think that is nominal, especially when the guys is making millions of dollars.
Now if Giamibi planned on saving up for a trip to Spain and waited until now to go, then yes, he got screwed. He should have went back in 2001 but so should have we all.
Maybe gardner can replace abreu since bobby’s contract is done after this season. Are jackson and gardner both cf’ers?? We could always move melky to right, he has a strong enough arm
blargh-
just as an aside, from another thread, when i threw out the 10 % increase in workload from one week to another for young pitchers that was my own personal beliefs. major league teams increase it more as the yankees are with joba.
randy: Ah, ok
Greetings,
So im breazing throught the posts and heres what im getting out of it so far.
-The season is over
-Its a rebuilding year
-We dont have the young talent to compete with our inter divisions young talent.
-Sell your season tickets when team sucks or renegotiate.
-Bullpen sucks and there isnt any answers in the near future.
-CAPITALIZING AND PUNCTUATING MAKES ALL YOU WRITE RIGHT!!?
-raymagnetic has been in a coma for 3 months. So has the Yankees.
-Dump Edwar for having a bad game.
I do want to add one to this list. Bench Cano. Last night, everyone blamed Molina for the throw.When he could of easily snagged it and tagged Rios(i believe)out. Continues to swing at first pitches. Time to send a message.
One last thing. Im going to be in the minority that thinks we still can take this division. If we were 7 games back August 1st. Id still feel the same.
Wish i lived in NY to buy those season tickets.
just as an aside, from another thread, when i threw out the 10 % increase in workload from one week to another for young pitchers that was my own personal beliefs. major league teams increase it more as the yankees are with joba.
10% increase is not a good idea, look at this example. Say a reliever’s limit is at 40 pitches. Going by a 10% increase his limit will be 44, 48, 53, 58, 64, 70, 77, 85, 94, 103. Initially his limit increases by only 4 pitches but later on it increases by 9. There should be an even rate of increase. Also going by that schedule the pitcher will take 50 days to get up to 100 pitches. In spring training a pitcher starts out having not pitched at all and increases his workload to 100 pitches in half the time.
sj44, enjoy your analysis, but my question and for a few years has been as they try to rebuild … mariano/posada/jeter/arod … keep getting older, its not easy to say one of these kids will be able to replace mariano or posadsa… 2 key positions where the yankees (like boston) have excelled the past few-and more years …
so if hughes/joba/other are ready for prime-time in 3 years, you now have other key replacements that you need to find
the easy answer is they should of started this trasistion after 2004 … i wasnt calling for it but i’m also not the GM
so is it really awful if cashman is replaced after this year
maybe it isnt