Pitching matchups for the Oakland series
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- June
- 10
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Tuesday: RHP Chien-Ming Wang (6-2, 4.57) vs. LHP Dana Eveland (4-4, 3.82), 10:05, YES
Wednesday: RHP Darrell Rasner (3-3, 2.58) vs. RHP Justin Duchscherer (5-4, 2.3), 10:05, YES
Thursday: LHP Andy Pettitte (5-5, 4.99) vs. RHP Joe Blanton (3-8, 4.15), 10:05, YES
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on Tuesday, June 10th, 2008 at 3:54 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
maybe this is the week wang and pettitte get back on track. if the yankees want to stop treading water, it better be.
Nice, no Harden.
Pete, Don’t you sleep???
Poor Rasner, why is he always up against the toughest opposing pitcher in the series?
I agree, Kasey, Wang and Andy were supposed to be the bedrock of the rotation.
Still can’t believe that Rasner has 3 losses with that ERA.
Truly hope Wang can bounce back this time, God bless him.
Agreed that Wang and Pettitte need to step it up. Wang is having a mechanical issue, I believe, but he needs to iron it out already. Pettitte is just making bad pitches. Whether that’s a sign that he’s not 100% healthy and can’t make the pitch he’s trying to throw isn’t clear isn’t clear to me. Both guys could just be in slumps.
And from the prior thread, Steve was right. Platoon Melky and Garnder and send Duncan back: they are not using him, he is not hitting and Betemit is their chosen backup 1st baseman. Gardner/Melky can provide OF relief for Abreu instead of Duncan.
The real bench problem is having to keep three catchers, although given Po’s shoulder – which needs off season surgery – one way to safely get through this season is to commit to keep Moeller and use Po at 1st to spell Giambi.
Either way, Duncan goes back to SWB.
I wonder what the trolls will say when WE sweep Oakland ?
mel
June 10th, 2008 at 6:35 am
I agree, Kasey, Wang and Andy were supposed to be the bedrock of the rotation.
Still can’t believe that Rasner has 3 losses with that ERA.
————–
well, when you have a total of 3 runs between those three games to support him (not in each game… all three games had 1 run from our offensive offense), it’s really not that difficult to believe.
Pete, when can we expect a post about your thoroughly professional habit of posting bizarre discrediting remarks on Yankee fan pages?? Everyone go to Know Mass (Figure it out – Pete blocks posts with the name properly written)
Pete posts rude remarks in the comments on the site – how hypocritical for him to decry the same on his own site, and how bizarre that a supposedly accredited and professional journalist does such things in his spare time. Right??
“Still can’t believe that Rasner has 3 losses with that ERA.”
Gibson lost nine games with 1.12 ERA. Sometimes as good as you are, you’re up against a better guy.
im still waiting for the explanation from the people at that site regarding how they can publish the name of a poster when there is assumed anonymity.
that is completly unethical.
Don Vito – would you quit being positive, it’s going against the flow of the room
I agree with Steve and murphydog – sounds like a platoon of Melky and Gardner has a chance of being a really nice set-up for the Yankees. Right now Shelley Duncan is not adding any value to the team, and should be returned to SWB. At this point, it really could not hurt to give such a platoon a try. And frankly, they could have used some decent pinch-running in the last few games so just on that alone they could justify the move. And if they use a strict platoon, Gardner could get enough playing time.
My feelings about west coast games and west coast teams in general is sort of, if a tree falls in the woods and no one’s around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know they exist, but they don’t seem real to me, except you know they are real, because there the are in the box scores and the standings.
Pete,
Leave any comments on other websites lately?
I wonder what we could get for trading Melky Cabrera. I definitely prefer Gardner, if just for pure speed. Maybe Melky can net us a plus arm in the bullpen. God forbid it be a LHP.
Ya win one and Ya lose one. Things will get better when AROD is back. Ya win one and Ya lose one. Things will get better when Posada gets back. Ya win one and Ya lose one. Things will get better when the weather warms up. Ya win one and Ya lose one. Things will get better when……..I think its time for the “new Joe” to stop acting like the “old Joe” and light a fire under some of the Yankee “All Stars” or Ya win one and Ya lose One. Its time to shake things up since what we are doing is not working–We are talking about splitting with Kansas City at home—sigh
how can you prefer gardner over melky when he hasnt even played in the majors yet. its one thing to say id like to see him promoted to see what he has, but to say you prefer him over melky before you’ve seen the guy take his first ab as a yankee is premature.
Russell,,OK how is this ?…Duncan stinks, send him down….Molina stinks, send him down….Oakland STINKS, sweep them out and leave their town….trolls stink, they are such clowns ?
Rasner’s losses can be fully attributed to lack of run support.
Anything less than 2 of 3 against Oakland put the Yankees in a deeper hole.
They need to capitalize NOW on the teams in front of them. Thinking they can keep on waiting with what they have is courting danger.
For all you draft nuts:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/fan_for.....yy06102008
Y’s Guy -
I was just about to post the same thing as you just did. It’s a giant leap from wanting to see how a Melky/Gardner platoon could help to Gardner should be the everyday CF over Cabrera!
this team needs a sweep, not 2 of 3. splitting a series against one of the worst teams in baseball at home is pathetic.
It would be nice if the Yankees could run 5 games in a row or so. But, seriously, I’d take two 2/3 series. And unfortunately, the way they are pitching right now (you really don’t know what you’re going to get from the two pitchers who were supposed to be locks), 2 of 3 would be fantastic! Sweeps and winning streaks look like a pipe dream right now.
They are finally hitting – but not at the same time they’re pitching. Wang and Pettitte were let off the hook while pitching two terrible games – a tribute to the offense. But the two pitchers who pitched beautifully were left to scratch their heads and wonder where the bats were. They’re not putting it together; they need to get their yin in line with their yang (or is that their “win” in line with their “wang”???).
Cashman said a couple of weeks ago on the Michael Kay show that Gardner would not be brought up to platoon because he’s a lefty and so are the starters.
His point was that he’s not going to replace a lefty with another lefty.
He also said that if they needed a speed dimension – the guy most likely to get the call first would be Ramon Castro, not Brett Gardner.
Personally, I hope they do promote Gardner when they decide to drop Moeller because I’m really getting tired of Melky and he needs a kick in the rump big time.
I’ve said for two years that Melky is little more than a 4th outfielder and his consistent bumbling mental mistakes are getting really tiresome.
“Cashman said a couple of weeks ago on the Michael Kay show that Gardner would not be brought up to platoon because he’s a lefty and so are the starters.
His point was that he’s not going to replace a lefty with another lefty.”
No to add fuel to the fire but 5 of the 5 Yankee youngsters that Cashman has brought up are failing right now (Melky, Cano, Wang, Hughes, Karstens).
Russell -
That’s not fair. Wang, Cano and Melky have had success, and Karstens has been injured more than not – and frankly, so has Hughes.
did somebody declare ‘kick melky day’ and not notify me? or is it just a regular practice to crush whomever made the last (of 27) outs the previous game. melky is batting 9th and playing a vital defensive position. in the past we’ve won WS titles with guys like brosious and t fernandez on our team, not exactly great hitters.
for the past couple of years mekly has been a godsend in cf, considering the options. now maybe gardner can take some playing time away, or maybe gardner wont be able to hit mlb pitching, we dont know yet. on the list of things that need fixing, id put melky at about #6. (sp, bp, rh bat, speed, defense)
“That’s not fair. Wang, Cano and Melky have had success, and Karstens has been injured more than not – and frankly, so has Hughes.”
That’s why I said “right now”
“on the list of things that need fixing, id put melky at about #6. (sp, bp, rh bat, speed, defense)”
If Melky is #6, and Gardner CAN hit MLB pitching, then you fix 3 problems at once: a) Melky’s bat replaced b) more speed c) possible BP help in trade.
on the list of things that need fixing, id put melky at about #6. (sp, bp, rh bat, speed, defense)
My list would be: Wang, Andy, Cano, Bench, Bullpen, Melky
Look, Melky is fine. Maybe he isn’t even bringing the team down. But the Yankees are the Yankees. In left you have Damon, in right you have Abreu, and waiting on deck you have Matsui. We only have 1 room for a 4th (DEFENSIVE) outfielder. If Gardner is better than Melky, you have to explore that option. If Gardner can even hang in there, we would have ourselves a Jose Reyes on the bases and the media can shut up about us being old and fragile for a while.
actually if you want to count more accuratly, melky would be like #9, (2)SP’s, (2) RP’s, cano, RH bat, speed off the bench, defense at 1B, then maybe melky’s hitting.
im all for replacing duncan with gardner, but don’t expect that even if he can hit well enought to replace melky that its gonna make a huge difference.
Look, Melky is fine.
Melky is fine for what he is – a good defensive but average offensive centerfielder. He has had great defense like always and his OPS right now is just slightly below his career OPS. I don’t think we can expect much more than .750 OPS but with his defense that is still valuable. I think in the long run Brett Gardner will be a better CF than Melky but I doubt Cashman and Girardi want to call him up before September.
“on the list of things that need fixing, id put melky at about #6. (sp, bp, rh bat, speed, defense)
My list would be: Wang, Andy, Cano, Bench, Bullpen, Melky”
My list would be: 1) Find Wang his arm slot, 2) Add a player to the EVERY DAY roster with speed ala Gardner, 3) bullpen reconstruction (we have the pieces, they just aren’t arranged right), 4) TELL CANO TO TAKE PITCHES, 5) Keep Posada healthy, 6) Tell Abreu and Matsui to start slapping pitches the other way. It is unbelievable the strike zone chart on where all the pitches go to those two. They can stare in one spot the entire AB and in 3 pitches have a 90% chance of getting the ball middle-outside.
sorry gardner’s a nice player (in aaa), but reyes? not even close.
Wang doesn’t belong in that group because he’s just struggling and has a pretty darn good track record of winning throughout his young career.
Hughes was struggling and he’s a young kid, the youngest pitcher in the league. A player who struggles and another who shows consistent mental lapses are two different things.
Cano has enough mental lapses of his own, but there is no replacement for him. Hey, I like Alberto Gonzalez, but a struggling Cano is still better than Gonzalez.
How many times over the past two years has Melky been told time and time again by Torre and Girardi to STOP SLIDING INTO FIRST BASE!!!
Yet, he does it again and again and doesn’t listen to his coaches. He’s also extremely lucky that he wasn’t thrown out of the game because he threw his helmet towards the ump.
Pena saved his hide on that.
If nothing else, Gardner would provide a dimension of speed that this team could use and he would also provide some competition for Melky – something the team really needs.
Giuseppe -
What are the consistent bumbling mental mistakes that Melky makes?
The one thing he does on a consistent basis is slide into first base head first. That needs to be addressed and rectified. But other than that, what? Check out his numbers with runners on third. Has he struggled a bit hitting against all those lefties? Absolutely. Most of the lineup has. All season. Has he made some poor plays in the outfield – a couple, but for the most part he’s been consistently good in the outfield – his worst mistake was the non-doubleplay the other day.
“Wang doesn’t belong in that group because he’s just struggling and has a pretty darn good track record of winning throughout his young career.”
When your #1 starter has an ERA considerably above the league average and has allowed 23 earned runs in his last 23 1/3 innings pitched, he qualifies to be on the list of present issues that need dealing with.
Melky had a nice begining of the season, and he’s hit decently in the last few games.
But that spark he showed the last couple of years isn’t there anymore.
He’s hitting .270 and has a OPB around .320. That really doesn’t cut it.
The chatter about giving Brett a chance is getting stronger, and it’ll keep getting louder until either Brett falls off some in AAA or until Melky starts looking better at the plate.
just because michael kay says it doesnt make it true…
“Yet, he does it again and again and doesn’t listen to his coaches. He’s also extremely lucky that he wasn’t thrown out of the game because he threw his helmet towards the ump.
Pena saved his hide on that.”
that’s inaccurate. look at the play again. look at the play again; 1st off, he didnt throw his helmet towards the ump, he threw it at the ground, and secondly, melky looped all the way over to the stands and was walking back to the dugout when tony pena began to walk over to him. that’s not to mention that he was easily safe, who wouldnt’ be angry.
i like tony pena and all, but kay was just way off base in his description of the incident.
also, his slide into first had absolutly nothing to do with the outcome of the play that ended the game.
My list would be: 1) Find Wang his arm slot, 2) Add a player to the EVERY DAY roster with speed ala Gardner, 3) bullpen reconstruction (we have the pieces, they just aren’t arranged right), 4) TELL CANO TO TAKE PITCHES, 5) Keep Posada healthy, 6) Tell Abreu and Matsui to start slapping pitches the other way. It is unbelievable the strike zone chart on where all the pitches go to those two. They can stare in one spot the entire AB and in 3 pitches have a 90% chance of getting the ball middle-outside.
3)”we have the pieces, they just aren’t arranged right” Absolutely agree. Farnsworth and Hawkins are approaching DFA territory in my opinion, they simply aren’t that useful. I like Veras, Edwar, Ohlendorf, Mariano, Giese and I think Robertson is ready. That leaves one open spot for Melancon or Cox but I don’t think either of those are ready yet.
4) I’m pretty worried about Cano, I think its more than just taking pitches.
6) I think they do that fairly well already.
I’m concerned about Andy because it seems like age is catching up to him. I also think the bench needs to be fixed. Shelley, Moeller, Betemit, Molina is not cutting it. If Posada stays healthy Moeller can be cut. Shelley is worthless right now, he should be sent down. To fill those two spots I’d bring up Gardner and Gonzalez. That would assemble the bench I wanted coming out of spring training. I think it offers everything we could want; defense, some power, decent hitters, pinch runners, speed, 2 guys that can bunt, etc
pete, any thoughts on the draft coverage of other sites that you’d like to share, you old pro, you? interested readers -get it?- want to know! know mahs baby!
Y’s Guy -
I take it the extension to your name means you’re going to attempt to watch the west coast games in their entirety?? You’re a better fan than I am, that’s for sure!!!
I can’s sleep while they’re playing.
I can’s sleep while they’re playing.
Lets hope for 3 pitchers duels
Melkman and Cano must be pushed. Melkman is easy you have someone in the minors that has a chance to replace him. maybe Melk can get a hangnail go to the 15 day Dl and Gardner could replace him. Should motivate him and maybe he will start listening to his coaches.
Now Cano is much more complicated, we don’t have anyone in the minors who can push him and he knows that. He also signed a big contract this off season that now adds to the problem.I think Cash will be making a trade for second baseman soon, a Grudzlenik type who they could play while Cano sits and ponders his future. My biggest fear with Cano is that he has lost all motivation becuse of the contract he signed.I’ve been a Yankee fan for almost 50 years and Cano is the first homegrown player that i have never warmed up too.There is something about him that i just can’t put my finger on
put melky on the d.l. and bring up a guy who you dont even know can play at the mlb level?
did you ever consider that gardner might bomb in the majors? that would leave you with noodle-arm damon in center.
damn, the gardner hype is begining to approach the malacon hype in here.
i want to see gardner promoted too, but lets try not to get crazy here.
no name
Same here on Cano, it’s over 50 years for me too.Maybe it’s his display of aloofness in the dugout even while playing poorly.
I’ve been a Yankee fan for almost 50 years and Cano is the first homegrown player that i have never warmed up too.There is something about him that i just can’t put my finger on
Just got an email from Yankees that Damon Oppenheime is doing a live chat at MLB.com todayat 2PM.
Here is the link
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/fan_for.....yy06102008
It’s worth a two week shot at bringing up Gardner, he can do much worse than the Melkman is doing now. I bet he puts some spark in the lineup. Also it will help motivate Cano since his party buddy will be in SWB, Pa maybe he will see the light. 64 games is not a slump that is a disturbing trend
Maybe unconcern is a better word than aloof to describe Cano’s behavior in the dugout.
At any rate he needs Larry Bowa’s foot buried up his rump 24/7 apparently.
can’t do much worse
It’s worth a two week shot at bringing up Gardner, he can do much worse than the Melkman is doing now.
Its not like Melky is playing horrible right now, his OPS this season is right around his career OPS. Plus he is playing good defense like always. I think Gardner should get a call-up too but why throw Melky under the bus?
You promote players from AAA based on how they’ve preformed.
Right now, preformance wise, Melky and Brett are heading in different directions. When you take what each brings to the table at their respective levels, then Brett looks better and better.
He gives the team a speed. Real, natural speed. And he’s a smart base runner. His OBP and SLG continue to rise in AAA, while Melkys slowly falls.
He doesn’t have as good of an arm as Melky, but his legs let him cover about as much ground. He doesn’t have the HR power that Melky does, but he has already raked a whole bunch of doubles and triples.
Another thing hurting his chances, is that hes a pure lefty. Something that Yankees already have in spades.
what a shame Cano is such a talent. It won’t be long before they will boo him out of the stadium. Again my prediction Cano and Melk elsewhere next year.
i have no problem with sending shelley back to aaa and trying gardner, but dl ing melky when you dont know if gardner can get on base or play cf in the majors is a ridiculous risk that they arent going to take.
It could be that Cano just responds much better to the one on one coaching he was getting while Bowa was onboard.
Thank goodness for Rasner. Five out of six quality starts (in fact, 2 runs or fewer in those 5).
two weeks down in the minors will do Melkman wonders, trust me. He and Cano have gotten very comfortable in the majors, time for a shake up
thats ridiculous, aaa time will do nothing for melky and will leave the yankees without a major league caliber centerfielder.
just curious, why would you want to take that chance when shelly duncan is growing moldy on the bench and contributing nothing to the team?
Cano is in a slump right now but I think in the long term it will help him build character and become a more mature person. This year might be a lost year for him in terms of his stats but I don’t think he’s done as a player. I think he will be a very good Yankee for a long time.
Cano is actually slowly coming out of his slump. In May he hit .295 and so far in June he’s hitting .297. He is still slugging lower than he should and his OBP is abyssmal but at least we are seeing improvement.
btw, when somebody says ‘trust me,’ i don’t.
I don’t like the manager. No, that isn’t strong enough for how I feel against Girardi. His hiring has killed a lot of my passion for the Yankees. I have been a fan for more than 50 years, watched some great teams and some poor teams, but never has a member of the team brought me to a point where I am right now. While I don’t like seeing the Yankees lose, I am in a quandry about how to feel about each win that Girardi gets as manager. As a catcher he didn’t put me off as he does as manager. The make up of the whole team seemed to change when he got the job, and not for the better.
Cano isn’t a favorite of mine, but I think some of his problems comes from the language barrier he has, and his comfort level with it. I think he makes some outstanding plays but because he makes them look so easy, it seems commonplace. His batting gets frustrating, but I don’t want to see him replaced at this time.
Melky is a puzzle. He shows some signs of being a pretty good CF. I don’t care if he is a super-star. He could be solid, which is more than enough. He has bad habits, but if he had good coaching he might overcome that. Might.
I don’t like Meachem at 3rd at all. He has caused a number of outs because of sending the runner when they had no chance.
Shelley can play 1B, thats the only reason he’s still around.
If Ben Broussard keeps playing at a solid level, you could see him and Shelley switch.
Gardner can play any OF position but I don’t believe he’s played anywhere else.
If you switch him and Shelley, that leaves you with Bettimit and Giambi as your 1B options… And Bettimit is also your backup 3B and SS, so it’s a little risky sending Shelley down for Gardner.
And just where do you rank our ML caliber CF in the AL? I would say the lower half, he’s at the bottom in the Al east
This is how crazy people talk, people like Dynasty this is your guy now listen to how he makes his points.
In one of the craziest articles known to man Ian O’Connor “on drugs I guess” wrote his opinion on Joba being misused, you people that want JOba in the bullpen should listen to this one and maybe then you’ll understand why you sound so misguided. For effect you guys should read Ian’s comments like a coming attraction movie flick, you know that guy in the movie intros where he said’s in a menacing voice “Coming Soon”
As a starter, Joba Chamberlain does not come across as the same bogeyman who lived in the pen. He was far more menacing as a hooded slash-and-gash figure who came and went in a bloody eighth-inning snap.
What ? I guess he means Joba was more dominant. I guess.
This Joba stays around a tad too long, and blends into the scenery a bit too much, to inspire unbridled dread in the opposition. He still strikes a confident pose, but the explosive temperament that fueled his fastball with vile intentions has to be tamed now in the name of perspective and pace.
Is it me or did he miss Joba sitting 94-98 mph and topping out at 99 ? And ofcourse he’s gonna stay around long and blend in he’s a freaking starter what does Ian expect 1 pitch 3 outs ?
Chamberlain is being asked by his bosses to see the big picture, so his fist-pumping rage wasn’t evident on a Sunday when the temperature gauge was more conspicuous than the radar gun. Up and down, Joba swore that he would carry the same intensity across a starter’s workday that was a setup man’s best friend.
Righhhhhhhhht……. because when Joba got into his fist pumps it was recieved well by the media. The radar gun read 99 MPH Ian with good location at that.
It isn’t humanly possible. No matter how many games he started in college and in the minors, and no matter how many Yankee scouts swear he has the stuff to become the staff ace, Chamberlain was born to seek and destroy in a quick late-night raid.
This is Dynasty-esque at it’s best, let me translate this he just said even though Joba has always been a starter in his life and the evidence proves from even ML scouts and samples in the minors and college that he is a starter for some reason his opinion over exceeds all proof of him being starter. You see why Nick in SF and CB and SJ and whozat and I get frustrated combating these opinions from outside posters.
He wasn’t born to linger on an oppressive early summer day.
What
Sure, Chamberlain did just fine in his second start, surrendering three runs (two earned) and five hits over 4¤ innings in a 6-3 victory over the Royals, and throwing 78 pitches after Joe Girardi said the goal was to have him fire 75 to 77. But Kansas City is a wretched lot, and Chamberlain did leave the game with his team on the wrong end of a 3-2 score.
This guy seems to miss Joba is basically pitching w/ one hand behind his back, basically limited w/ his pitch count, and is it me did he just not say Joba did fine ?
He threw a lazy slider that Jose Guillen sent crashing into the left-field seats, and before the ball cleared the airspace over the infield, Chamberlain lowered his head and stepped toward his dugout, knowing it wouldn’t be coming back.
Is he writting a pirate’s tale or something…what’s the need for “crashing into the LF seats” and “cleared the airspace” and “knowing it wouldn’t come back” ? Weird guy. Anyway lets continue.
Never mind that the Yankees shouldn’t be orchestrating this awkward transition in-season, treating a June game like a split-squad scrimmage in March. They shouldn’t be making Chamberlain a starter at any point of the calendar year.
Split quad ? And we had a chance to win both games if the offense would have showed up. The last comment is just ridiculous to even breakdown. Continue..
It’s all water under the bridge to Mariano Rivera, the closer Joba was scheduled to succeed. But the Yankee owners and scouts and wayward starters got in the way, and so Chamberlain will be the Bronx’s Beckett when his mentality screams that he should be the Bronx’s Papelbon-to-be.
The wayward starters got in the way ? Ian since January of 2008 even before that they(the Yankeees FO) said this is how they would handle Joba, Kennedy/Hughes or not they would have found a spot for him.
Close enough. Chamberlain will get 90 to 95 pitches next time around, and then about 105 the start after that.
One shackle at a time, the Yankees are liberating Joba in the hope he’ll make the struggles of Andy Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang easier to navigate. Chamberlain looked more like a starter Sunday afternoon than he did Tuesday night, but he didn’t look himself.
What ? How didn’t he look like himself ? Where is the explanation another opinion. Continue…
Said Girardi of Joba’s high-volume approach out of the pen: “I think you can keep that [intensity] all the way throughout a game.â€
I don’t. Chamberlain is at his best as a manic slasher and gasher who feeds on an opponent’s vulnerability before disappearing into the night.
As a starter the bogeyman is out in the open, looking a little too human to inspire widespread panic and fear.
Ok relax guy, Joba was SU man, he’s always been a starter these comments sounds like you’ve been reading too many Marvel Super Hero comics, “as a manic slasher and gasher” WTF does this mean is he Shredder or Scarface, “disappearing into the night” you sir must be on drugs I’m done !
cano made 2 good plays in the field yesterday, had 7 hits in the k.c. series, has been working the counts of late and when he grounded out, he’s been busting it full speed up the lines. and now ppl want him sent down to aaa?
that will help alot, trust me.
Ian O’Connor “on drugs about Joba” article
Enjoy it folks I know I did.
Y’s Guy and Doreen,
I couldn’t care less what Michael Kay said. I saw what happened with my own eyes, so I didn’t need any commentary from him.
Melky threw his helmet. You can’t do that. Period.
He was safe, but you don’t protest the call by throwing your helmet. Don’t be surprised if Melky gets fined by Bob Watson for his antics. And he should.
How many times does Melky have to be told by the coaching staff not to slide into first base over the last three years?
He’s done it many many many times and hasn’t learned. He did it last week. He also did it against Cleveland in the postseason last year and would have been safe on the play had he ran all the way through the bag.
It’s inexcusable.
Sliding into first is not only moronic, but dangerous. It has to stop. He needs a kick in the arse and Gardner could provide some competition for him and a speed dimension that the team could really use.
Competition is best for the team. Cano doesn’t have any competition in the minors so they’ll have to figure out another way to kick him in the arse.
A little minor league knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of some people here.
Prospects are just that until proven to be more. Gardner might have skills the Yanks can use. He deserves a chance to prove himself at some point but there are no guarantees those skills are major league caliber. The next savior is often the flavor of the month so be careful of banishing known quantity for wishing ang hoping.
when someone say trust me I don’t………. We aren’t talking about sending Cano down. Melkman has to be sent packing SWB or the DL. He is at best a marginal CF, again tell me who where he ranks in the AL? It kills me to say this but the Sux have CF’s better than Melk
That’s 2 CF’s better than the yanks sorry about that
At least we have GI JOE Girardi to help Cano along… oh wait.
“Gibson lost nine games with 1.12 ERA.”
That is just sick.
I wish Betemit would play 2nd for a few days…Cano needs to get his act together.
“he’s at the bottom in the Al east” – were you counting jay peyton or adam dunn above him there?
adam jones i meant to say
I am kind of getting the feeling that each day a player is chosen for nitpicking. (In general, that is.) Today, that player is Melky, because he figured in two plays yesterday – the head-first slide and the final out. What makes it especially expedient to pick Melky is that there is a “Gardner,” an actual player, for people to “replace” him with. It’s almost humorous.
What’s also interesting is how much faith people are putting in a player who hasn’t played in the majors yet, while at the same time wanting to return Duncan, who contributed some last year but so far has not really done very this season. I would think Shelley’s experience would make people gun-shy about bringing up another AAA guy into the mix. I could also mention IPK and Hughes, but pitchers are a different story, a different breed.
Giuseppe -
I didn’t hear what Michael Kay had to say – I never listen to his radio show. I agree with you that the head-first slides must stop. He should be, at the very least, heavily fined every time he does it. Since he’s not making millions yet, it might actually make a difference. What I disagreed with was your statement that he makes consistent bumbling mental errors, and I challenged you that aside from the head-first slides, what else is there?
If your position is that those slides are enough of a reason to decide he’s a bad player, then we’re not going to agree on that. That’s okay with me. We’re both entitled to see things differently in that regard.
A little minor league info is a dangerous thing in the hands of some people here.
Gardner deserves a chance to prove or disprove himself at some point but let’s not start annointing people savior when they haven’t even proven themselves to be flavor of the month at the major league level. Melky is the kind of role player that many here always complain that this team needs. Then when he isn’t a superstar, you want him banished.
melky’s in the top 10 in the league, imo.
pat -
Amen.
Doreen – It’s like in football – when a team is not playing well everyone is yelling for the back-up QB no matter who he is.
Melky had a bad last at-bat yesterday but I don’t think sending him down is the answer. I do however, think that the Yanks need a speed guy to be in the starting line-up or to pinch run off the bench. I don’t think that Chad Moeller is an ideal pinch runner! I am not as familiar with the SWB roster as others on this blog, so maybe it’s Gardner, maybe there is someone else. But right now I think the Yanks need a speed guy and that Duncan is taking up a roster spot.
Doreen,
Let’s get something straight. I’m not suggesting they outright replace Melky with Gardner and leave him there.
What I am suggesting is that Melky needs some competition because he clearly lacks motivation right now.
He got that competition in Spring Training and he excelled.
Cashman himself has also said that Melky is going to have to earn CF if he wants to keep it. He wasn’t going to get that job by default. Clearly, Melky hasn’t learned from his mistakes and needs to be reminded that this is a performance business.
There are other options in the minors ready to push him over the next couple of years. Gardner happens to be that guy right now. Also, he can provide a speed dimension they really don’t have right now so they’d be killing two bird with one stone.
I’d suggest some competition for Cano as well, but there is nobody in the minors to provide it.
all the young guys are failing.. wow the comments here are classic.
yeah wang with
60 wins has been a real failure.cano with a career 307 avg. in over 3 yrs. the same.. really read what you type before you send it.
Karstens stinks and always will..
“No to add fuel to the fire but 5 of the 5 Yankee youngsters that Cashman has brought up are failing right now (Melky, Cano, Wang, Hughes, Karstens).”
And last year Wang and Cano were two of the best players in the league, so what’s your point?
For the better part of 2 and a half years Wang and Cano have been two of the best players in the league and Melky has provided okay numbers for a ninth place hitter.
Everybody struggles in baseball. Everyone. It’s considered good if you make an out 63% of the time.
here’s who i have above melky in the a.l.(no particular order), please feel free to tell me who else is better:
upton, pedroia, wells, ichiro, hunter, hamilton, gomez, sizemore. swisher if you consider him a cf.
he’s not great, but for a #9 hitter, he’s better than alot of guys, and on defense he’s one of the best in the league.
the platoon melky idea is terrible and thankfully one that the yankees will obviously not consider. one hot week with the bat and half the crowd calling for it will want to sign melky to a 4 year extension… With melky you have a strong arm, solid defense and lots of upside at the plate. He’s still very young. If you want gardner up, so be it, but you’re kidding yourself if you think he will be anything but a pinch runner / one in every ten game starter.
left murphy off the list
“The chatter about giving Brett a chance is getting stronger, and it’ll keep getting louder until either Brett falls off some in AAA or until Melky starts looking better at the plate.”
Neither of which look likely.
doreen, i guess you didnt get the memo about ‘kick melky day’ either. they need to update the mailing list.
“did somebody declare ‘kick melky day’ and not notify me? or is it just a regular practice to crush whomever made the last (of 27) outs the previous game.”
That’s the problem with this board. Everyone wants a minor league player to come up and produce like Bonds from day one. If the player struggles it’s DFA that player.
Point in case Shelly Duncan. There were hundreds of posts begging Cashman to bring up Shelly. Now there are hundreds of posts begging Cashman to DFA Shelly.
“Point in case Shelly Duncan. There were hundreds of posts begging Cashman to bring up Shelly. Now there are hundreds of posts begging Cashman to DFA Shelly.”
There were hundreds of people begging Cashman to give Shelly a SHOT. Whether or not people expected him to be around for the long haul you really can’t tell.
sorry i should have indicated that my list was rating cf’s by offense only, not defense. so i have him as the 10th best offensive cf in the al, he’s definatly in the top 3 or 4 on defense, so that puts him overall in the top half of cf’s in the a.l. pretty impressive really.
14 Teams in the Al Cf’s better than Melky
Hunter Wells Granderson Sizemore Ichiro Hamilton B J Upton Ellsbury ( Crisp) Probably Jones ( more upside) Gomez gathright and who ever Oakland plays. Yeah he’s top 10 maybe out of 10th out 14. Y’s guy he marginal at best
rookie left handed pitcher…..its going to be a long night for the yankees…I dont see them winning one game in this series.
what is that list? murphy? as in dave murphy? nick swisher? better than melky? Pedroia plays second base… I cant make heads or tails of what that list is…
“Right now, preformance wise, Melky and Brett are heading in different directions. When you take what each brings to the table at their respective levels, then Brett looks better and better.
He gives the team a speed. Real, natural speed. And he’s a smart base runner. His OBP and SLG continue to rise in AAA, while Melkys slowly falls.”
One is in the MINORS and the other one is in the MAJORS. I think that makes a big difference.
Gardner has been older than Melky at every level in the minors. Gardner is 24 in AAA, Melky was 21 in AAA.
Despite being older than Melky at every level Gardners minor league OPS in only .007 higher than Melky’s was in the minors.
Melky’s minor league OPS was .766, Gardner’s is .773.
“What I am suggesting is that Melky needs some competition because he clearly lacks motivation right now.”
Guiseppe – I would be very worried if that was the problem. In my opinion, if someone needs competition to maintain their position or play at the high level that they are capable, then I don’t want them on my team.
I don’t think that’s Melky’s problem. Personally, I don’t think Melky’s play will be affected much by Gardner coming up.
gathright is hitting .240,jones .249, “whoever oakland plays” would that be davis (.240) or gonzalez (.220)?
It is useless comparing minor league offensive statistics. Speed is completely underrated. Speed makes opposing pitchers sweat, gives them something to think about. Gardner gets on base and we have fastballs to Damon and Jeter. Bases loaded for Abreu and ARod all the time.
Where would the Mets be without Reyes? Even when Reyes is sucking, if you take him out and replace him with someone who is hitting borderline better, it isn’t helping the team.
Russell NY you are living in La La land it’s human nature people sometimes need a kick in the butt to get going again, sometimes they just get a little comfortable. It happens all the time.
Those 3 right now are not as good as Melk, but that’s it there are 9 better than him, Y’s guy
“There were hundreds of people begging Cashman to give Shelly a SHOT. Whether or not people expected him to be around for the long haul you really can’t tell.”
Yeah, and now those same people want Duncan taken behind a barn and SHOT.
raymagnetic -
I would even say if you make an out 70% of the time (hit .300), you’re doing well.
sorry i have a problem with pedroia and ellsbury, and is there another swisher im not aware of? he does occasionally play cf (sunday), although i wouldnt count him as one.
thats 9 better than melky on offense. and hes in the upper half on defense. thats not bad, certainly no reason to send him down to aaa as you suggested, or to dl him with a fake injury.
“Where would the Mets be without Reyes? Even when Reyes is sucking, if you take him out and replace him with someone who is hitting borderline better, it isn’t helping the team.”
Jose Reyes has speed and pop. For the past three years he’s been an above average offensive player in the NL. It’s not just speed with Reyes that people are worried about.
Another thing about Gardner, he strikes out a lot. He’s already struck out 48 times this year in 220 minor league at bats. How often do you think he’ll strike out in the majors?
Y’s guy you shoildn’t drink in the AM Pedroia is 2nd baseman Ellsbury / Crisp is better than Melk. Only with worse CF’S are the W/S.Oak KC Minny so your right he is a top 10 Cf in the AL 10th of 14.
I’m excited about Gardner too — and he looked great Saturday night. But Pat’s right: “He deserves a chance to prove himself at some point but there are no guarantees those skills are major league caliber.”
But he’s now hitting .295, with OPS of .862 (and trending upwards). That’s better than Jacoby Ellsbury was doing in Pawtucket last year (with similar SB prowess).
raymagnetic ®™-
Right right.
I just feel that Gardner adds an important aspect to the team that Melky doesn’t. The team needs a spark, and it doesn’t seem like it’s going to come from the guys on the team now.
I don’t think Melky is bad, I just think the Yankees could benfit from adding someone who has the chance to bring something more to the table.
Of course it’s no garuntee that Brett would do anything positive in the Majors.
But offense is contageious. If he could get things going just a little bit. If he could add just a little spark to the team, then maybe it’ll help some other guys get going.
Cash may prefer Castro because he sees Matsui as 4th OF and Gardner would be a 5th OF. In reality, however, with Giambi playing almost every day, Matsui is the DH, not the 4th OF.
Duncan’s only benefit to the team is RH power as a PH, and he’s not getting enough ABs to keep it fresh so he’s not serving any purpose right now. IMO either get Duncan some ABs or move him. I’d move him.
But I’m not suggesting that they replace Melky with Gardner. My goal is to send Duncan back and keep all 3 catchers. That way you can baby Posada a little more to make sure he lasts the rest of the season, allowing him to DH and get another half day off playing 1st once in a while. Without Posada, this team is just lost, IMO. So, preserve Po’s arm and shoulder while keeping his bat in the lineup. Is he really that much worse at 1st base than Duncan?
If you use Po at 1st to spell Giambi and Gardner is the extra OF and speed guy for situational running, the odd man out is Duncan because he plays 1st base and corner OF. Right handed power off the bench is not happening this year with the current roster.
What I really hope though is that our man Melky steps it up!
everyone yelling for melky’s head right at this very moment seems to be forgetting that he is one of the streakiest players in baseball. he is not baseball jesus but he is pretty serviceable, plus the rest of the offense is supposed to be able to carry a player like him who is around for defensive purposes.
bringing up gardner to linger on the bench and pinchrun and play every now and then isn’t a great idea for him or the team. he needs to be playing just about every day right now. if they need to bring up a pinch runner it should not be him.
I’d say Wells, Ichiro, Hunter, Ellsbury, Upton, Hamilton, Swisher (if you count him as CF), Sizemore and Granderson are better offensively than Melky. According to RZR Melky is a better defender than Upton, Swisher, Wells, Ichiro, Hunter, and Hamilton. So say he’s the 10th best hitting CF and the fourth best fielding CF. Thats not bad.
Melky isn’t as good as several CF’s in the AL but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a good player. He’s a great fielder with a so-so bat. Even if his future isn’t as our starting CF, he can still stick around as a fourth outfielder.
yes, i didnt suggest melky was anything more than an average cf, with his combined offense and defense he is in the middle in the league.
you are the one suggesting he should be sent down to aaa or be put on the dl, not me
i was only answering your question about where he ranks in the a.l.
your assumption that gardner is better than melky is ridiculous and your suggestion that mekly needs to go back to aaa is laughable.
i appologized above for mistaking ellsbury and pedroia.
I don’t know where the idea you need to compare melky’s offense to that of other AL CF’s came up, especially when the guy you’re hoping to spell/replace him is a speed guy. You’d be better suited to compare him to other team’s #9 hitters… I have an odd feeling that would look ok.
That of course completely ignores his defense and assumes gardner will have no trouble adapting to CF in yankee stadium (wagers?)
Yeah, and now those same people want Duncan taken behind a barn and SHOT.
your misinterpreting alot of things the point w/ Shelley is he has earned his way back to Scranton because by process of elimination Wilson Betemit already fills the role he was fighting for. Wilson right now is the better RHB since returning from AAA vs LHP .429/.429/.429 in 7 AB and vs RHP .300/.364/.600 in 3 AB. See Wilson right now is filling a need, Shelley’s bat translates vs LHP .000/.250/.000 in before that it was .243/.310/.405 if he can’t hit LHP and is making outs in his samples and isn’t a defensive upgrade, why is he still here ?
Exactly what DMan says above, plus I don’t understand the hesitation to give our minor leaguers a shot.
If we get so hung up on Melky and ignore the abilities of Gardner then we got a logjam.
So we find out Melky and Gardner are on the same playing level… Melky’s got the arm, Gardner’s got the speed… but overall the same. What have we gained? A trading chip.
What teams would be interested in Gardner if he hasn’t established himself in the majors? Teams already know what Melky can do. Give Gardner a shot.
“raymagnetic -
I would even say if you make an out 70% of the time (hit .300), you’re doing well.:
Doreen, exactly.
bringing up gardner to linger on the bench and pinchrun and play every now and then isn’t a great idea for him or the team. he needs to be playing just about every day right now. if they need to bring up a pinch runner it should not be him.
he has 1 yr. of service left before rule 5 so he has to come up this season
“your assumption that gardner is better than melky is ridiculous”
Not completely. Only one way to find out.
so patricks ratings match mine exactly, and i just threw out the ‘top 10 offensively and top 3 or 4 defensivly’ off the top of my head.
bottom line, melky’s doing fine, dl’ing him for gardner or sending him to aaa is ridiculous.
Melky to step it up…………. this is what you get look at the previus 2 years he is right on pace to do what he has done in the past. He is a lower ranked Cf in the AL… lets face it guys it is what it is look at the numbers
russel, i started out by saying that id like to see them bring gardner up. but i was responding to the guy who said they should dl melky to bring up gardner.
Melk’s a 4th outfielder on most contenders
Brandon,
I’m not misinterpreting anything when it comes to Duncan. In my opinion Duncan will go back down to Scranton and start hammering the ball again. Betemit will struggle or have a bad offensive day. Folks here will then start yelling for Cashman to give Shelly another shot cause Betemit is a bum
Melk’s a 4th outfielder on most contenders
Ok so make him the fourth outfielder but why send him to AAA or put him on the DL with a phantom injury?
“Ok so make him the fourth outfielder but why send him to AAA or put him on the DL with a phantom injury?”
Where else are you going to put him? You only really need 4 capable outfielders.
bret gardner is mickey mantle
no name, since you want to get rid of melky before you see if gardner can play, i have 2 questions for you:
1) have you ever seen gardner play?
2) where will gardner rate among a.l. center fielders when they send melky down and put him in cf every day?
I’m personally not saing Brett is better than Melky. Maybe he is, but who knows?
I’m saying that Brett brings something to the table that no current Yankee does. Real speed.
He gives the Yankees a new element. Something different to try and get the offensive gears turning.
I’m not trying to say that Brett will carry the team, or hit .450 like Jay Bruce… But he might be able to add a little something that helps the rest of the team get going.
“bret gardner is mickey mantle”
Francis – I have no idea why, but I was thinking the same thing lol. Perhaps it is the way he looks, sorta? But yea, Brett Gardner is the next Mickey Mantle. Only faster, and is going to hit 900 career homeruns. Oh, and he will win WS MVP 5 years in a row.
DMan gets it. lol
“no name, since you want to get rid of melky before you see if gardner can play, i have 2 questions for you:
1) have you ever seen gardner play?
2) where will gardner rate among a.l. center fielders when they send melky down and put him in cf every day?”
I know you weren’t asking me but I have seen Gardner play and he is VERY fast. The kind of fast that makes teams sweat bullets. Good player, didn’t seem to hit for power when I saw him but that’s not what the Yanks need from him.
Where will Gardner rate? May not start off on Melky’s level but if he continues to make contact and run the way he is now, he will be up there.
Brandon,
I’m not misinterpreting anything when it comes to Duncan. In my opinion Duncan will go back down to Scranton and start hammering the ball again. Betemit will struggle or have a bad offensive day. Folks here will then start yelling for Cashman to give Shelly another shot cause Betemit is a bum
If Shelley hammers the ball in AAA then he becomes a trade piece remember Shelley is 28 yrs. old it’s not like he has that much of an upside, what you see right now is what you get. As for Betemit I told you guys he’s been improving, LD% is at 29.7, he’s cutting down on his strikeouts because he’s laying off of the offspeed junk. He is on pace to have a very good year if he stays healthy. You saying Betemit is bum again opinion but the facts show he is not.
I think Gardner will get a shot this year at some point but it isn’t likely to be at the expense of Melky. If getting younger is really the goal, both could have a place on the 25 man roster in the future.
Maybe the Yankees should sign a Kenyon runner
What has happened to this board?? Forget about making the playoff, the team better start winning so some of our fellow posters can regain sanity.
Yesterday someone accused Mariano Rivera a career Yankee and best closer in history of the sport of having no heart. Today someone named Wang he who has the most wins in the league two years running as an example of Cashman’s failure. What’s next, DFA Jeter and send Arod to Scranton??
I am frustrated too but I keep reminding myself that these are athletes, not machines. They have slumps. Imagine if everyone plays perfectly all the time and we win every game, would we still have so much fun as fans?
“Where else are you going to put him? You only really need 4 capable outfielders.”
Well first of all the bottom line is, Gardner is not supplanting Melky at any point this season. Perhaps next spring training Gardner will be made the starter but before then he will only be a part time player.
Secondly with Gardner we would only have 4 capable outfielders; Melky, Damon, Gardner, Abreu. Matsui should be full time DH and fifth outfielder. My ideal roster right now would be: Damon, Jeter, Abreu, Rodriguez, Matsui, Giambi, Posada, Cano, Melky, Gardner, Gonzalez, Betemit, Molina, 12 pitchers.
“You saying Betemit is bum again opinion but the facts show he is not.”
Actually I never said Betemit is a bum. I said if Betemit struggles people will be calling for him to be DFA’d calling him a bum and screaming for Cashman to bring Shelly back. This exact scenario has already happened once.
No where though did I say Betemit is a bum.
russel, i’ve seen him play several times in trenton and once in scranton, i agree that he has a ton of speed, and i want him to get his chance. but to send melky down to make room for him is folly, and will never happen.
im a little worried that he wont be able to get on base enough, but i want to see them give him a shot, but you cant send melky down to do it. i think cash is waiting b/c the chances are pretty good that damon or matsui or abreu will miss some time to injury and then they can bring him up and give him alot of playing time.
but taking it out on melky, as everyone seems to want to do today is just scapegoating.
better meat has been very solid since coming off the dl and wearing glasses.
I don’t think sending Melky down is the best option.
But why not platoon him with Brett?
Brett is a lefty, so he could play some games when theres a righty pitching. You give the games with left handed starters to Melky.
It could be that the Yankees plan to bring Gardner up next year, park him in Center and move Melky over to RF. I think they should re-sign Abreu so I don’t like this plan. Moving Melky to LF would mean that either Damon or Matsui has to be traded. Not a big fan of that either although I’d rather part with Damon than Matsui.
I said if Betemit struggles people will be calling for him to be DFA’d calling him a bum and screaming for Cashman to bring Shelly back. This exact scenario has already happened once.
And those people have been proven wrong while stupidly defending Shelley Duncan’s ineffectiveness in this line up.
No where though did I say Betemit is a bum.
My mistake.
“Brett is a lefty, so he could play some games when theres a righty pitching. You give the games with left handed starters to Melky.”
Melky is a switch hitter. Isn’t his Right side his weaker side?
upton, pedroia, wells, ichiro, hunter, hamilton, gomez, sizemore. swisher if you consider him a cf.
I had no idea Pedroia was a center fielder. Unless u meant Ellsbury.
I wasn’t pleased with Melky’s last at-bat yesterday, but I’m not willing to write him off. I’d like to see a bit more production from him but then again, he is batting ninth. He has decent range and an excellent arm. As for Gardner, I’d like to see what he can do at the Major League level, so I would support sending Duncan down and giving Gardner an opportunity. Given Duncan’s performance, what is there really to lose ?
Melky is a switch hitter. Isn’t his Right side his weaker side?
Yup. And Brett is better vs LHP although he’s done good on both sides, I wouldn’t platoon Melky and Brett, I’d give one of them 2 days and the other 3 to keep them fresh.
ok, for the 3rd time (maybe people should read down the posts before commenting) im sorry i put in pedroia when i meant ellsbury.
“Yup. And Brett is better vs LHP although he’s done good on both sides, I wouldn’t platoon Melky and Brett, I’d give one of them 2 days and the other 3 to keep them fresh.”
I would have to guess that Gardner’s prowess vs LHP’s has to be a fluke. That said I would love to see a platoon of Melky and Gardner but not strictly depending on what type of pitcher is throwing.
Frank Discussion-
I’m not up for writing him off either. I think a lot of people are ‘mis-understanding’ what some of us are saying.
We’re looking to bring Gardner up to add a new wrinkle to the Yankees offense, not to completely replace Melky forever… Just to add another element for the Yankees to work with to try and get the team on a roll.
Both players can bring different positive things to a team. All I’m saying is that giving Brett a chance could open some doors and provide a spark that this team needs.
Does anyone truly believe the problem with this team is Melky? It’s real simple the two most glaring problems are the bench and the pitching. The offense has come around, but Andy has a 5 era, wang a 4.5, and they haven’t had a true 5th starter for 4/5 the season.
Unless Brett Gardner can pitch, he’s not the answer. Maybe replacing Duncan with Gardner and letting him be a 4th OF and giving him regular work would help. Until Andy and Wang get it turned around, this team will hang around .500,
Don’t even get me started on our pen…
“Today someone named Wang he who has the most wins in the league two years running as an example of Cashman’s failure.”
There is a very big difference between “someone is failing right now” and “someone is a complete failure.” Please read carefully before you start altering people’s words to fit your argument.
“Melky is a switch hitter. Isn’t his Right side his weaker side?”
Yes. The numbers argue against a true Melky/Gardner platoon.
However, Shelley’s not doing a helluva lot better against Lefties. Plus if you figure that sending down Duncan means keeping the three catchers, you can rest Po or get him ABs at 1st base and DH occasionally when he’s not behind the plate. You can think of Po as your RH power PH when he’s not in the lineup.
“Wilson right now is the better RHB since returning from AAA vs LHP .429/.429/.429 in 7 AB and vs RHP .300/.364/.600 in 3 AB”
How is he hitting .300 in 3 AB? I am pretty sure that is impossible:
0-3 = .000
1-3 = .333
2-3 = .667
3-3 = 1.000
Doreen
I did not suggest sending Melky down either, but it might not be a bad idea to send Duncan down or Moeller when it is determined that Jorge is healthy to promote Gardner.
I know (carrying Gardner) it is a 5th outfielder, but I also agree with the point that a little competition might Melky’s game.
This team cannot slug it’s way out of every game, it needs to manaufacture runs. Rasner’s 3-3 record 2.58 a testiment to that.
An example of what Gardner can do is if you walk Carl Crawford what you have ultimately done is give him a “walking triple” because he can then steal his way to third, or get there on pass balls and drive the pitcher crazy doing so.
This is a dimension Gardner could give us, also provide a speedy pinch for guys like Giambi and Posada late in close games.
I don’t think any these points demean Melky’s presence on the team.
I agree completely, DMan, I’d like to see what Gardner brings to the table as well. I’d really like seeing some speed on the basepaths. We’ll never know what he can do unless he is given the opportunity. As it stands right now I’m more concerned with Cano then I am with Melky.
The guys over at “River Ave. Blues” have an interesting thread going on the whole Melky / Gardner debate…
“Damon, Jeter, Abreu, Rodriguez, Matsui, Giambi, Posada, Cano, Melky, Gardner, Gonzalez, Betemit, Molina, 12 pitchers.”
Sounds good to me. Giese has made himself known.
“Does anyone truly believe the problem with this team is Melky?”
I’m pretty sure only “no name” thinks that.
“It’s real simple the two most glaring problems are the bench and the pitching.”
Gardner would really help one of those problems in my opinion.
“Maybe replacing Duncan with Gardner and letting him be a 4th OF and giving him regular work would help.”
Thats exactly what I think. Obviously Gardner isn’t going to be our savior but I think he can help the team right now.
In other words, I agree with everything DMan just posted.
William Buckner-
Yup thats a great point.
Gardner can’t help the pitching, and it wouldn’t be in his or the teams best interest to sit him on the bench for days at a time like Shelley, maybe using him once or twice to pinch run.
I would have to guess that Gardner’s prowess vs LHP’s has to be a fluke. That said I would love to see a platoon of Melky and Gardner but not strictly depending on what type of pitcher is throwing.
He’s hit power pitching too, don’t let his shortness full you. RISP vs whoever .327/.462/.510 and a .972 OPS 22 of his total 25 RBI are from RISP situations. 27% LD rate in June.
15% LD .299/.369/.483 in 87 AB
24% LD .266/.407/.383 in 94 AB
27% LD .367/.486/.500 in 30 AB
betemit is now established as legitimate? it’s amazing how 2 weeks makes or breaks careers in some peoples eyes, it’s not like betemit couldn’t hack it for 5 years with other clubs before “becoming a yankee” and then once he got his shot with the yanks had some of the worst at bats ever witnessed in mlb history last august… oh wait that did happen, but yeah he’s 3 for his last 19, someone lock him up quick!
“Does anyone truly believe the problem with this team is Melky?”
I don’t. I think the biggest problems are overall team age, insufficient reliable starting pitching and the bullpen.
That said, a real issue is the bench. Duncan isn’t doing his job and there are 3 catchers. Gotta fix that.
albany, your math is correct but adds absolutly nothing to the discussion.
AlbanyYankee it’s on MLB.com player page. I’ll check the others.
Sounds good to me. Giese has made himself known.
No doubt, my pitching staff would be this: Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Rasner, Chamberlain, Giese, Robertson, Ramirez, Ohlendorf, Veras, Farnsworth, Rivera.
I think Robertson is ready for a callup and Hawkins should be DFA’d. I would also DFA or trade Farnsworth as soon as Cox or Melancon is ready. Once Kennedy, Hughes, Horne, Sanchez, Albaladejo, Bruney, etc are healthy the possibilities will be endless.
I wanna see the Yankees win this series.
We have to start friggin winning series. Must!
James, what the stats show is when he makes contact outs or in play he makes hardouts or gets hard hits in 08′. No one is saying lock him up which btw I think he has 3 yrs. of service left counting this year so he is not a FA anytime soon and if he is it won’t cost much.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....1915.story
Hopefully they were discussing player moves? Maybe when they return home we’ll see a few new faces one of them being Brett? Fingers crossed!
The question is whether Cashman and others believe Gardner is an everyday player. If they do and you bring him up, he has to place regularly. If you don’t he can come up and play sparingly, but pinch run, replace Damon for D in late innings, etc.
Betimet remains valuable because he hits better then Duncan and can play all IF positions, although not well. Duncan can’t play D and really doesn’t hit.
I might actually consider keeping 3 catchers for a little longer. Baring injury, this isn’t a team constructed to use the bench that often.
“Does anyone truly believe the problem with this team is Melky? It’s real simple the two most glaring problems are the bench and the pitching.”
William – I don’t think many people in here are saying that the PROBLEM is Melky. It is more the argument that there is no Gardner-type player.
One thing thats certain, they need to add some bench speed.
I haven’t seen Gardner play too much, but has it been established that he has the same cannon that Melky does?
William Buckner
June 10th, 2008 at 11:44 am
One thing thats certain, they need to add some bench speed.
Right right. Which is why a platoon might not be a bad idea.
Although I do see that a righty/lefty platoon isn’t the best idea.
If you don’t he can come up and play sparingly, but pinch run, replace Damon for D in late innings, etc.
Damon is actually one of the better fielding LF’s in the league
laura, gardner has a decent arm, not a cannon.
Gardners arm isn’t as good as Melkys. It’s ok though. He can cover a lot of ground though.
“There is a very big difference between “someone is failing right now†and “someone is a complete failure.†Please read carefully before you start altering people’s words to fit your argument.”
Hey there, who’s altering words now? I never wrote complete failure yet it didn’t stop you from putting it in quotation as if I did.
Any way I’m not here to pick fights, I just don’t think that statement makes sense, and it looks like I’m not the only person confused by what you wrote. Every athlete has had days when they are failing right now by your definition, even Babe Ruth had some slump days. But your point is that Cashman is somehow responsible for Wang’s current slump which I think is unfair. That’s all.
miguel cairo won the game for seattle vs. toronto with a 10th inning safety squeeze.
miguel still doing his thing, helping out the yankees!
“Gardners arm isn’t as good as Melkys. It’s ok though. He can cover a lot of ground though.”
Hmmm. Maybe the plan is to leave Melky in CF and put Gardner in RF. It’s a shorter throw. If that’s the case, I’m going to miss Bobby Abreu.
I hate these West Coast games. I can’t stay up for them.
We need speed off the bench. Having Wilson pr is a JOKE!
“I haven’t seen Gardner play too much, but has it been established that he has the same cannon that Melky does?”
Probably not, but he’ll get to as much or more and can quite likely add something to the lineup that Melky can’t, namely an offensive contribution.
Melky’s arm isn’t good enough reason alone to keep him out there. It’s good, but not necessarily elite (Ichiro and Upton – those are elilte arms).
Patrick,
Damon is a lot of things, and I agree he covers ground well, but his arm is worse then awful and he takes some bad angle from time to time.
“Hmmm. Maybe the plan is to leave Melky in CF and put Gardner in RF. It’s a shorter throw. If that’s the case, I’m going to miss Bobby Abreu.”
Bobby is the perfect guy to hit in front of Arod so I think there is a good chance of them giving him another two years. Maybe there was a thought prior to the season that Cano was really going to bust out and improve his plate discipline this season that could result into him moving into the #3 spot next season. Well, we all know how that’s working out.
“Bobby is the perfect guy to hit in front of Arod so I think there is a good chance of them giving him another two years”
I agree the may re-sign Abreu, but I think there is zero chance it will be 2 years. Probably going to have to be three minimum, as this is likely Abreu’s last contract. He’s not taking 1-2 years knowing that.
Best place to talk to Cash off-the-record was at his 5 year olds birthday party in CT last week.
If only I could break the code of off-the-record. I can say that change is on the horizon.
not even Pete gets to go to Cash’s family outings when Brian’s guard is down.
(Why am I always wrong?)
Pete was a little woozy at 4am with his Mo analysis and “all relievers want set roles” comment. Coming into a tie game in the 9th at home IS part of a closer’s set role. Maybe Mo was due for a less than perfect outing pitching 3 straight days in brutal weather….
i think they really have to try to keep abreu this offseason. this was the year i think they were hoping that cano could step up and show that he could take over the 3rd spot in the order, and that obviously has failed.
only problem is that if i were abreu’s agent, i wouldnt take less than 3 years or at least 2 with a fat buyout.
Maybe it was all a dream?
Hope Wang can get back on track.
I have not had the opportunity to watch Gardner play. But it sounds like he is very fast and I would think the Yankees could benefit from that.
Please understand…this is not a Red Sox troll attack, just an observation. It seems that the Yankees could use some more speed on the bases and Gardner would provide that.
Ellsbury has been a sparkplug for the Sox. That speed affects so many things.
Balls hit in the infield that would normally be outs become singles, singles sometimes become doubles and so on. When Ellsbury gets on base it can disrupt the pitcher’s concentration because he is worried about the stolen base.
Historically the Sox have been slow on the bases, and it has been refreshing to see what some speed provides and it sounds like Gardner could do that for the Yankees.
“Hope Wang can get back on track.”
All he has to do is find his arm slot. Seems so simple, but NOOOOOOOO!
Let’s hope he has it tonite. Yanks cannot survive him being the pitcher he’s been the last three weeks.
I’m only going to venture into the ‘Melky foray’ once.
Melky Cabrera is TWENTY THREE years old.
Not 27. Not 30. Not 33.
This is not a finished product.
He is still developing, and has 3-4 years left until his so-called ‘peak’ of 26-27 arrives. I’d like to see a higher LD%
The fact that he’s a league average, or better, center fielder at TWENTY THREE is excellent. I’d like to see the LD% increase, as that’s usually the precursor to a breakout (like Rios in 2006).
He’s batting .294 in June and .348 in his last 12 games (that’s after his 0/7 in the past two days). Definitely better than ’serviceable’.
“That speed affects so many things.”
Very true, Mo, Posada, and Dave Roberts would agree.
Too bad Girardi will not be DFA’d. That might help improve the team dramatically.
“Damon is a lot of things, and I agree he covers ground well, but his arm is worse then awful and he takes some bad angle from time to time.”
Yeah true I wasn’t even thinking about his arm. I guess if you factor in his arm and his range he would be about average in LF. Great range horrible arm, does it equal out? I have no clue.
The bottom line for me is that Brett Gardner has the ability to help this team win ballgames right now. Thats more than we can say for Shelley Duncan. It doesn’t matter if Gardner is better or worse than Melky, he has a different skill set which I think would help the Yankees win more games.
Brett Gardner will not be called up to a bench guy/pinchrunner.
He will not be called up to platoon.
“Definitely better than ’serviceable’.”
He’s a below average offensive player right now. Weak OBP skills and minimal pop. Doesn’t steal bases and isn’t an exceptional baserunner in general. That said, this lineup SHOULD be good enough to allow for a low end bat like Melky.
V-
Not many people here are arguing that Melky shouldn’t be on the team, or is in some way terrible. Most of us think he can play the game.
Most of us are just stating that this years Yankees could benifit from a player with the skill set like Gardners.
The Yankees steal a base here and there, sometimes go from first to third, but overall they aren’t a threat on the base baths.
Not many teams worry about a steal or worry about someone beating out an infield hit. Temas don’t worry about the Yankees bunting for a hit.
Gardner gives the Yankees a new option. It’s a chance to add an exciting spark to the team.
I like Melky a lot and would not like it if he was traded. That said, I understand that Gardner needs at least a shot with the big guys. Much as I love Shelley, he’s not doing much right now, so would it keill the Yankees to send him down and then bring up Gardner so they can spell Melky for a day or two?
“Brett Gardner will not be called up to a bench guy/pinchrunner.
He will not be called up to platoon.”
You are probably right. I think he’ll get a september callup and I can only hope that Girardi will give him some playtime then. I think he would be a huge benefit on the Yankee bench and if they make the playoffs I want him on that roster.
Good Afternoon.
Fredo- Great stat on Gibson. That is amazing.
Looking through some baseball stats and standings this AM and at this point into the season the biggest surprise to me in the AL is how well the White Sox are playing and how poorly the Tigres have started. Amazing how Kenny Williams was laughed at for Linebrink, Dotel, Danks, Floyd and so on. He also comes up with what looks like is the biggest steal of the offseason in Carlos Quentin. Dombrowski on the other hand has to be wishing he kept his receipt for Willis and why did all the “experts” pick Detroit to be an elite team with that starting rotation? Hasn’t baseball proved over time the whole pitching vs hitting debate?
Is there anyone in that division other than the White Sox that will finish above .500? Maybe Cleveland?? This bodes very well for the WC to come out of the East.
I feel for you guys having a West Coast game. It throws off your entire week. You need to sleep but you can’t sleep when your team is playing. It is also a gamble as there is no better win then when your team wins and it was worth staying up for yet it is difficult to snooze after a tough loss. I guess however if that is one of the toughest decisions of the day then life is pretty darn good.
Take Care-
dennis
I agree he won’t be called up to be the bench guy.
Not sure why you’re completely writing off the idea of a platoon though.
It seems like a week ago many were calling for Jason Lane.
It’s still a good idea as long as Gardner and Gonzo come with him and Duncan, Betemit, and Moeller are sent down.
Why can’t Cashman see the difference it would make in roster flexability ?
The team as constructed will not be pulling rabbits out of hats when crunch time gets here. Teams will not just lie down and wait for the Yankees to make a charge.
These Yankees need to make their own good fortune.
“so would it keill the Yankees to send him down and then bring up Gardner so they can spell Melky for a day or two?”
Doesn’t make a lot of sense to bring up a guy like Gardner and get him only 7-8 AB’s a week. He may as well be playing everyday in SWB.
“V-
Not many people here are arguing that Melky shouldn’t be on the team, or is in some way terrible. Most of us think he can play the game.
Most of us are just stating that this years Yankees could benifit from a player with the skill set like Gardners.
The Yankees steal a base here and there, sometimes go from first to third, but overall they aren’t a threat on the base baths.
Not many teams worry about a steal or worry about someone beating out an infield hit. Temas don’t worry about the Yankees bunting for a hit.
Gardner gives the Yankees a new option. It’s a chance to add an exciting spark to the team.”
Y’know? I’d love a fast guy on the bases also. However, I think such a guy is overvalued, in general.
How valuable is Michael Bourn? Joey Gathright? Not much, unless they can figure out how to, um, actually hit.
I sincerely doubt that Brett Gardner is going to be coming close to Jacoby Ellsbury’s production.
if you think about it, what are the chances that melky/matsui/abreu and damon would all stay healthy and not miss some period of time. i think cash realizes that at some point one of those guys will miss time and will bring gardner up at that point to play regularly.
i dont think they want to bring gardner up until he can play alot and its not likely he will be able to contribute much if he’s on the bench 5 or 6 days a week.
Calling up Gardner right now isn’t an unreasonable idea.
But the impact he is going to have on this offense vs. Melky isn’t going to make that much of a difference. He’d give them a different look but that’s mostly it.
Right now the yankees have scored 65-75 runs less than expected.
A player like Brett Gardner or even Melky if he were hitting better just isn’t going to put a major dent in that lack of offense.
Again – I’m not saying its not worth trying, I’m just saying that Melky, as bad as he’s playing is th 9th place hitter and he’s not the major reason why they’ve scored so few runs.
The offense has been very strange this year.
The team is 4th in the AL in OBP. It is 4th in the AL in slugging percentage. They are 3rd in the league in OPS.
So they are getting on base and hitting for power at a good (not great) rate.
So what’s the problem?
But they’re only 7nth in runs scored.
They just aren’t driving in runs. That’s the bottom line. Why is that?
They are 12th in the league in hitting with runners in scoring position. 12th – that is abysmal and that’s the problem.
Damon, Jeter, Abreu, and Posada are all hitting above .300 with RISP. Melky is hitting .275.
Cano has been dreadful at .197. Just terrible. That’s around .035 points worse than his BA.
But Cano is far from the only problem with RISP.
Giambi is only hitting .149 with RISP. .149 – that’s .105 points lower than his BA. Unfortunately, even though he’s been red hot for the past 6 weeks his BA with RISP just has not come up that much. Its gone from around .100 before he got hot to .149 – an improvement but not nearly an improvement that is not proportional to the improvement in his BA.
ARod is hitting .217 with RISP. That’s .100 points lower than his BA. Jose Molina is hitting .217 with RISP.
Now with Alex the sample is relatively small so this is going to change – he hit .330 with RISP last year.
But again, when your 4th and 5th hitter are both hitting over 100 points lower with RISP than their battign averages you are just going to have a lot of trouble scoring runs.
This team can score runs when they hit home runs – which both ARod and Giambi have done very well this year. But it struggles scoring in games they don’t hit home runs in.
Not sure how much Brett Gardner is going to change that. They have to hope ARod and Giambi start driving in runs outside of home runs.
Until then the offense will struggle regardless of who is in CF.
It’s still a good idea as long as Gardner and Gonzo come with him and Duncan, Betemit, and Moeller are sent down.
If Gonzo comes up Moeller is going on waivers, Betemit is actually earning his playing time. Duncan has been nothing, scrub status, nada, zilch, what need does he fill..cheerleading ?
Someone above made a great point that Melky is a work in progress which is very true. Go back and look at Bernie Williams numbers early in his career.
Also, comping Gardners # and Melky # in minors isn’t fair because Garnders doing it at 24. melky was at 21.
How about a Bernie Castro call up for Duncan? Gives speed and ability to play infield D.
Something woke me up middle of last night.
Then I realized Igawang is pitching today. I couldn’t go back to sleep the rest of the night.
Y’s guy: Melky and Matsui don’t exactly have lengthy injury histories, except for Matsui in 2006.
“I feel for you guys having a West Coast game. It throws off your entire week.”
Speaking of west coast, kudos to the Red Sox management for moving game times tonite and Thursday to 6 PM so as to enable fans to catch the Celtics. Never would have happened in the Yawkey days. I know Lucchino is a schmuck, but you have to give it to that ownership/management team for being a far more customer friendly lot. I try to catch 1 Yankee game in Fenway a year. In the 80’s people were pissing in troughs, the food sucked and the peolpe serving it were miserable. To some degree, they’ve put lipstick on a pig, but they’ve made that place a far nicer place to attend a game. Better food, better service (with a smile) and better atmosphere.
OK. That’s the last nice thing I’ll say about the Sox til 2013.
How about a Bernie Castro call up for Duncan? Gives speed and ability to play infield D.
Gardner is out performing Castro, and is the more useful player, they aren’t benching Robi for Bernie Castro. Eric Duncan I presume..how 1B are we gonna have ? Also take in account Brett Gardner has one more year of service left after next season he loses value if he’s not on the current roster, so you need to see what you got in him.
How the heck does anyone know for certain that Gardner would make that much of a difference to the team. When did he play in the majors? He is hitting in the minor leagues? Wow. There ya go. Bring him up. Why not bring up Igawa as well. He is pitching really well in the minor league.
What’s with all the talk about stealing bases? Damon steals, Jeter steals, Abreu steals, A-Rod steals. All at pretty high percentages too. Just because a guy can run doesn’t mean he can steal bases.
Sometimes I think we were much better off when we knew very little about the farm system. It seems that everyone now falls in love with some guy they have never seen and thinks he is the next Mickey Mantle.
Right. Mickey Mantle struggled as well when he first came up, and he was one of the few players you kept hearing about in the minor leagues.
“Not sure how much Brett Gardner is going to change that. They have to hope ARod and Giambi start driving in runs outside of home runs.
Until then the offense will struggle regardless of who is in CF.”
True, good points CB. I don’t think Gardner is the solution to fixing this team but I do think he would be more useful than Shelley Duncan. The only reason I would hesitate bringing him up is because I don’t want him to sit on the bench for 7 days then get 2 at bats then back to the bench. I want the Yanks to call him up and platoon him with Melky, see if Gardner brings anything to the table. When hes not playing he can pinch run, steal bases, drop a bunt, substitute on defense. Those are all things Duncan cannot do.
There is nothing wrong with this team that well-pitched games (and a lot of them) by Wang and Andy Pettitte can’t cure.
There is also a little less roster flexibility because the Yanks are carrying 3 catchers. Once they are sure that Posada’s shoulder is ok they should be able to go back to 2 catchers. That will open up a spot for another infielder or outfielder.
V-
“I sincerely doubt that Brett Gardner is going to be coming close to Jacoby Ellsbury’s production.”
Jacoby Ellsbury 2007 in AAA
87 games, .298 Avg, .360 OBP, .380 Slg, 14 doubles, 5 triples, 33 SB, 6CS
Brett Gardner 2008 in AAA
61 games, .295 Avg, .414 OBP,448 SLG, 9 doubles, 7 triples, 25SB, 8CS
So, I get that the majors is a completely different thing. And Jacoby is playing real well in the majors. Minor league numbers don’t always turn into major league success, I know that. Take those numbers for what they are…
But the Sox saw Jacoby’s numbers last year and figured he could help out. And they were right. He sparked that team. He got people excited and got their offense going.
Bretts numbers this year are very comparable to Jacobys last year.
I don’t think its farfetched to think Brett could help the Yankees.
rebecca, i know none are injury prone, but you take 3 guys in thier mid 30’s plus a young guy and you have to fingure that somewhere in there, someone will have a hammy or something and miss 2 weeks, thats your opportunity to bring gardner up. im very glad that hasnt happened and hoping it doesnt but the law of averages says something will come up.
btw, girardi has been doing a great job of spreading days off between these guys, keeping them fresh and reasonably happy and getting alot of production out of all 3 of them!
“He’s a below average offensive player right now. Weak OBP skills and minimal pop. Doesn’t steal bases and isn’t an exceptional baserunner in general. That said, this lineup SHOULD be good enough to allow for a low end bat like Melky.”
The only players around Melky’s age putting up better production are Upton, Ellsbury, and Gomez (Gomez is barely better from a VORP standpoint).
These three are pretty solid talents. Melky has -never- been in their league as a prospect.
However, at 23, he’s the 10th best offensive player out of 19 with more than 50 ABs (15 with more than 100 ABs). That’s an accomplishment.
23 year olds are, generally, raw players. You do not punish a 23 year old hitter for being merely average offensively (especially if his defense is solid at a premiere defensive position).
Will Melky end up being better than Upton? No. Ellsbury? No. Gomez? No.
However, I think he’ll be solidly above average if he’s allowed to continue developing. If he develops power (as most solid hitters do from ages 23 to 27), he’ll be a damn solid player.
But, that’s usually not good enough for ‘All Star at every position’ fans.
(interestingly enough, in terms of VORP (which is a counting stat, of sorts), Giambi is the top 1B and ARod the top 3B, and Posada’s #6 catcher, despite Giambi’s April and ARod and Posada’s injuries).
“Giambi is only hitting .149 with RISP. .149 – that’s .105 points lower than his BA. Unfortunately, even though he’s been red hot for the past 6 weeks his BA with RISP just has not come up that much. Its gone from around .100 before he got hot to .149 – an improvement but not nearly an improvement that is not proportional to the improvement in his BA.”
That .049 uptick in BA with RISP is about the same uptick in his BA. Those numbers are just a product of how really poor Giambi was doing in the first month or so of the season.
“Hope Wang can get back on track.”
rebecca-
i talked for a half hour about wang this past spring with neil allen who taught wang his sinker . he said wang had a natural arm slot for the sinker which is why he taught it to him.
notice there didn’t have to be a new arm slot. the old one was right as it was.
he showed him the sinker grip he used as a pitcher.
he told him he had to shorten his stride to make it sink.
instant success.
allen had one of the best 12/6 curves in the game and he threw it from the same slot as his sinker. he says there is no reason wang can’t do the same with his slider.
so this looks pretty simple to fix right .
wrong.
my theory is wang lengthens his stride because he can throw a better four seamer (faster and more backspin) and slider with a longer stride length which is wang’s natural stride length. so the more he throws those pitches, the more he tends to lengthen his stride which makes his sinker not sink.
my solution is throw less 4 seamers and sliders and throw more sinkers to keep wang tuned up with a short stride.
allen did say it is absolutely critical to throw up and in four seamers to keep hitters from cheating up on the plate to get the sinker before it sinks as much. so he has to throw some four seamers.
so that’s it, nothing complicated. shorten the stride basically. and quit throwing so many other pitches. if you see wang lighting up the radar gun you know he’s over striding.
i don’t have time today to defend my ideas on this ,so i’ll just say the problem is not hitters not swinging at the sinker as it drops out of the zone. the problem is the sinker is not sinking as much as it needs to. he’s lost the sinker in other words.
eiland is going in the wrong direction if anything he’s doing is not in the direction of improving the sinker.
Fredo.
I have been a season ticket holder since ‘94. The difference is incredible. I also go to a Sox-Yankee game at the Stadium ever year. Yes, I wear my B cap and I rarley get hassled. There are knuckleheads on both sides but I have found most to be civil and good natured. I am going to the All Star game and I am certain that any ribbing will be mostly in good fun. I guess I may look at it a bit different from some others. Hating the Yanks is like hating my brother. You want to beat him but you respect him.
-dennis
was depressed yankees fan trying to make the point that ignorace is bliss?
or was he trying to make the point that gardner might be mickey mantle but should be kept in the minors?
i couldnt really tell.
I’m thinking Castro because he is not a prospect. Losing him AB’s has no development cost. It adds pinch runner to roster. He’s also a better mid infielder should one be needed in game situation. By no means am I saying Castro to play over Cano.
Well, at least the good news is the Yankees tend to score runs when Wang pitches.
Or this is what I remember, anyway.
denis
amen. sportsmanship comes first.
i root against the red sox, but i respect them. the are after all the champions until someone knocks them off. and when the yankees are/were the champions i expect others to respect them, too.
i wear my ny cap when i go to fenway, and the vast majority are nice and only give me a good ribbing.
that is the essence of sports. after all we are all baseball fans.
randy,
We’ve had our differences but your stuff on wang is pretty interesting. The only point I’d like to make is in his first couple years I noticed Wang could get his fastball up to 96 and this year I’ve seen him maxing out at 93 tops. I’m not sure how that goes along with your long stride theory. In the past has Wang lengthened his stride when throwing a 4-seam fastball and then shortened it again for his sinker? That sounds like a bad idea mechanically because like you said, once he lengthens the stride its harder to replicate a shorter stride.
“That .049 uptick in BA with RISP is about the same uptick in his BA.”
No its not. Giambi was hitting well under .200 in the first month of the season.
And its not supposed to be directly proportionate. Your BA with RISP should be higher than your general BA.
Giambi’s batting average now is .254 – his BA with RISP should be at least as high as his BA is. In fact you’d hope it would be much, much higher.
Its not easy scoring runs when your 5th place hitter bats .250 with RISP never mind .149.
As a 5th place hitter Giambi come up often with men on base. He’s hitting a lot of home runs. But he’s really not driving in runs.
That’s a huge problem.
btw MLB subscription is required (it’s free) you can chat w/ Damon Oppenheimer today at 2 PM
Oppenheimer Q & A
the team needs wang to win this one by going 7-8 strong
Can we get rid of Girardi already? He’s in over his head, kinda reminds me of Trottier when he coached the Rangers. Girardi has never been 3 games over .500 ever. How can this be possible!?
“Can we get rid of Girardi already? He’s in over his head, kinda reminds me of Trottier when he coached the Rangers. Girardi has never been 3 games over .500 ever. How can this be possible!?”
d00d, how long have you been watching baseball? Go away.
Y’s Guy, ignornance is better in a sport where the fans are always proposing trades and bringing up prospects. Gardner has never been talked about as a top line prospect. He always projected to be a 4th OF. Yet people here are going on as if he will be the next Mickey Mantle. He won’t be.
He has some speed. So does the AG, yet we saw how well the Yankees played with the AG on the team and in the game. He really changed the face of the team. Right?
Gardner will do about as much. The only exception is when Girardi tries putting in a pinch runner. When doing it for Giambi or Posada then Betemit or Duncan ARE faster.
When people here read that “this kid has some promise” or “he is hitting well” they think “THERE IS THE SOLUTION TO ALL THE PROBLEMS THE YANKEES HAVE, BRING HIM UP”. Look how well all the cries for Duncan to be brought up have panned out. He’s really mashing the ball. Right? Yet so many here were sure he was the answer to hitting woes. Yeah. He is killing other teams. He gets up and hits it right out of the park every time. Then again, maybe not.
jimmy, one season with a completly depleted florida team and 1/3 of a season with the yankees and you are ready to fire him for not being more than 3 games over?
blaming girardi when we had 2 months of no offense and now a month of no pitching is way premature.
CB, what was Giambi’s BA with RISP when he was hitting below .200? Those numbers are going to be a part of the average. What you need to look at is trend, not average, because averages get too skewed by past performance or lack thereof.
there were maybe 2 or 3 people on here saying gardner is the answer to them the rest all said they’d like to see him come up so we can see what we have in him.
i think thats pretty reasonable. there are always the extreme types who have never seen the guys in the minors and want them to come up and be mantle, but alot of us have seen gardner and think he could help.
You cannot possibly be serious.
DYP Brett is striking out at a lesser rate month to month, his OBP % has increased month to month, his LD % has increased month to month.
OPS Apr .852
OPS May .790
OPS Jun .986
He has the ability to adjust and now is the time to see what you got in him. P.S. stop writing in caps.
“Yet people here are going on as if he will be the next Mickey Mantle. He won’t be.”
Nobody said that about Gardner. At least not seriously. (One sarcastic joker did write that). You’re exaggerating the argument to an absurd level to shoot it down.
And for the record, c’mon, the AG is not considered fast, at least not in terms of professional baseball players. FWIW, Gardner is much, much faster than Gonzo.
(And Duncan’s faster than Po and Giambi, huh? Me too. That’s not saying much).
Hitting trends in the minors now means a lot? Wow. Bring up Igawa. He is killing them in the minors. His record looks great down there. He has shown he has the ability to adjust to the minor leagues, so he should get to come up now and show what he can do.
murphydog, isn’t that the point? Its relative.
Yup, makes sense. Let’s fire the manager because it has to be his fault.
Where folks come up with this stuff?
For those scoring at home, Joe Torre is 30-33 with Dodgers. Last I checked, the NL East is not a tougher division than the AL East.
Its not the manager.
I also don’t think Melky Cabrera is the cause of the Yankees problems. Nor do I think Brett Gardner, a guy I think can be a good major league player, is the answer to their problems.
The Yankees are at .500 right now. Ask yourselves these two questions:
1. Have they gotten 5 straight quality starts from their rotation at any time this season? I believe the answer to that question is no.
2. Have they played 5 straight games in which the offense scored 6 (what they averaged last year) or more runs in a game? I believe the answer to that question is also no.
So, you have a team that can’t get consistent starting pitching AND can’t score like they did last year.
You really think that’s because of Melky Cabrera? Or, do you think Brett Gardner can be that much of a difference maker?
I don’t think so.
Unless they can get Wang and Pettitte going and hit with RISP throughout the lineup, they are going to continue to be at or around the .500 mark.
Its not a one or two player problem. Its also not a manager or coach problem. Its 25 guys and its their problem.
They blew a golden opportunity this weekend to get themselves going. Now, we see if they can get it going on the road.
“Gardner has never been talked about as a top line prospect. He always projected to be a 4th OF. Yet people here are going on as if he will be the next Mickey Mantle. He won’t be.”
No one has said anything about him being Mickey Mantle. Such nonsense.
You have no idea how Garnder will do in the majors and neither does anyone else. I’ve seen various projections for him, as a possible starter or as a fourth outfielder.
What has Melky Cabrera done to make you think he’s going to become a superstar. Has he improved in any area? So because he has a strong arm, and continues a trend of mediocre offensive production, Garnder shouldn’t be considered?
Again, Gardner has a plus .400 OBP and leads the International League in steals. He’s also been touted as a solid defender, albeit with an average arm.
Gardner, at the very least, seems to have two traits which could help the team, as opposed to Melky, who offensively really isn’t good at any one thing.
try to reason with a guy…
you are apparently of the opinion that nobody in the minor leagues is worth bringing up.
that would come a suprise to the 99% of all major league players who spent time in the minor leagues, including of course, mickey mantle.
your not depressed, you’re just not very smart.
Brandon: What does LD% mean? I hear that Betemit has the best on the team, so I’m a bit confused.
The Dodgers are in the NL West.
“what was Giambi’s BA with RISP when he was hitting below .200? Those numbers are going to be a part of the average. ”
It was around .100 when his average was around .130-150.
His BA has increased over .100 points while his BA with RISP has increased around .50 points.
I understand what you’re saying about trends – its really the rate of improvement that’s the key.
But I don’t believe the two are moving in lock step.
And remember – his early season BA with RISP was defined by a relatively small sample size in comparison to his BA (especially with the yankees trouble getting guys on base to start the year).
You’d really expect it to be easier for his BA with RISP to increase than his general BA due to the issues related to the sample sizes.
His early season struggles are a factor. But at this point in the season, after he’s been so hot, his BA with RISP should be much, much higher.
Comparing his BA to his BA with RISP Giambi has never been a great hitter with men in scoring position. His hitting into the shift, refusal to go the other way, lack of singles, etc. all factor in.
He has 14 HRs and only 34 RBI’s – and the issue isn’t that guys aren’t getting on base in front of him. So of his 34 RBI’s at least 14 are directly from his HRs. He probably has at least 5 more RBI’s related to men being on base when he hits the HR. That means he may only have 10-14 RBI’s this season that didn’t come from a home run. That’s just not good, especially for a 5th hole hitter.
when giambi is hitting, they dont pitch to him too often with risp. id have to believe that the sample size for his risp avg, since he started hitting better cant be that large.
that being said, i prefer posada in the 5 hole for lefties and matsui for righties (i know matsui hits lefties quite well, but i like posada there against lefties anyway.)
Brandon: What does LD% mean? I hear that Betemit has the best on the team, so I’m a bit confused.
line drive percentage Rebecca
23 year olds are, generally, raw players. You do not punish a 23 year old hitter for being merely average offensively (especially if his defense is solid at a premiere defensive position).
What do mean he is raw? He is in majors for almost 2 years now. He is what he is. He doesn’t have much upside like other prospects. Just because he is 23 doesn’t mean he is raw.
Y’s Guy, you are a complete buffoon, a total moron who parses words to fit your moronic limited viewpoint. Of the majority of posters who put words on this site, yours are amoung the most unreadable and plain stupid.
Your grasp of the English language is laughable. Your use of grammer is something that would have a 1st grade student giggling.
I certainly hope you are just a kid, abeit a not very bright one, who just spends his days in his grandmothers basement, because your knowledge, or really the lack thereof, is quite frightening.
Rotoworld says Morgan Ensberg has been release by the Yankees – link
released
grife.
Christ, Melky is what, 23? He’s not a washed up 35 year old verteran. Chill.
thanks depressed, you’re my first attacker here, can i have your autograph?
Christ, Melky is what, 23? He’s not a washed up 35 year old verteran. Chill.
Rebecca he is chilled he is just promoting a Gardner vs Melky competition. I want that too, because we would see what Brett is all about while seeing what Melky is.
Why does Melky have to be a superstar? He just has to be what he is. A good player.
Brett Gardner is not going to be a superstar. Nobody in baseball believes he will and its split as to whether or not he will even be a good ML player.
Minor league stats aren’t the way to evaluate a player. Most fans, and many members of the media, make that mistake all the time.
The stats are skewed because the talent level is so uneven.
Who does a player get his hits against? Can he handle fastballs or is he hitting bad breaking balls for hits hits?
Its the same with pitchers? Are they throwing quality strikes? Can they locate their fastball in any count.
Its much more important to watch prospects in order to determine their value than simply looking at their stats.
Gardner is a nice player. At this point, he’s not a better player than Melky Cabrera. He may be at some point or he may not.
On the list of Yankee issues, Melky isn’t on the short list.
“Your use of grammer is something that would have a 1st grade student giggling.”
Grammer???? The irony.
SJ Have a good time in Omaha. They will win it if they play like we know they can.
As for the Yanks, this is a big series. You have to figure that the A’s will be in the mix for the wildcard, so hopefully the Yanks can throw a beatin on them.
“Christ, Melky is what, 23? He’s not a washed up 35 year old verteran. Chill.”
True. But in almost two and a half seasons, he’s the same player. He doesn’t hit for power, he doesn’t get on base a lot, he has little speed.
Maybe his power will one day take off. Someone brought up the point that if the Yankees lineup was hitting like it was supposed to, you could easily absorb Melky’s mediocre production. But it isn’t and they shouldn’t.
And two other points that I’ve seen brought up time and time again in this thread. I don’t think anyone is saying that Gardner would cure all the Yankees ills. But batting him 9th with his ability to get on base and pick up steals I think could give this team a needed sparkplug.
Secondly, I love how some people are ready to put Ellsbury in Cooperstown. He’s a very good player with blazing speed.
But his numbers in the minors just aren’t that different from Gardner’s. Ellsbury has a .784 OPS so far this year and he’s hit 5 doubles in 57 games. Five.
So please. Just because Ellsbury was a more highly touted prospect than Gardner it doesn’t mean that he can’t have a similar impact on a game.
The Yankees problem is not lacking a “sparkplug”. Its driving in runs.
How does Gardner help in that regard? He’s not an RBI threat at the ML level.
As far as Melky being the “same player” he always is, that’s not true. He has driven in more runs than some of the guys on the CF list that are supposed to be “better” than he is. He’s not having a bad year.
That’s with Jose Molina and Chad Moeller hitting in front of him most of the season.
Put Robinson Cano’s numbers and Melky’s numbers side by side and tell me who is having the worse year. Its Cano by a landslide.
Something tells me the Yankees were expecting a lot more production out of Cano than Cabrera this year. If the Yankees are ticked off with either guy, its with Cano.
Melky isn’t the reason the offense is inconsistent. Cano is one of the reasons why the offense isn’t as explosive as last year.
It’s craziness to think Gardner for Melky is a major move that will fix what ails the Yankees. Gardner will give more speed, less power and less arm. Melky is young and should continue to improve. I want Gardner to replace Duncan because he adds speed and defense and Duncan is providing no power.
You ani-Chashmanites are really desperate if you are using the recent difficulties of Wang, Cano and Cabrera to justify your criticisms.
Right now only 3 CF in the entire AL have an OPS of over .800. And one of those is Josh Hamilton who is playing somewhere on another planet.
It’s not likely Gardner is going to join the group of Hamilton, Upton and Sizemore.
He very well could be an improvement on Melky. It’s hard to say given his age, numbers and power.
But on the hole its just not going to matter that much whether its Melky or Gardner.
I’m more saying this in terms of reasonable expectations. They need more guys who are driving runs in rather than getting on base and setting the table.
Again at this point it may be worth trying but Gardner just isn’t the kind of hitter who is going to change the way the offense produces.
One other thing – Garndner has struggled a great deal each time he was promoted a level. He struggled to hit for any power at all when he first got to AA and at AAA. It took him around a half season at both to get adjusted before he started to produce.
“I also don’t think Melky Cabrera is the cause of the Yankees problems. Nor do I think Brett Gardner, a guy I think can be a good major league player, is the answer to their problems.”
Nobody has been saying that. Go back and read what DMan or I have been posting all morning. We think he could help this team more than Shelley Duncan. Platoon Gardner and Melky and see if Gardner can help the team. Nobody is saying (except for one or two negative nancies) that we should throw Melky out the window and call up Gardner.
Teams like the Seattle Mariners or Washington Nationals know they are headed nowhere this year and can keep a Shelley Duncan or a Wilson Betemit on the roster because it won’t make or break their season but the Yankees who [supposedly] have playoff ambitions need every last contributor to help.
Then again, maybe the Yankees are content with mediocrity and are planiing for 2009 already. At least it appears that way.
Why would a platoon work? Melky’s weaker side is his right side. That defeats the purpose of a platoon.
The issue then becomes, would Gardner be effective as a bench player? He’s played everyday his entire career.
That’s a tough change for a young player.
We don’t know if he can play off the bench. Its probably why he’s not in the majors right now.