Pinstripes in the parking lot
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- June
- 11
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In the last 24 hours, there have been three invitations to come to the parking lot and drink beer with Yankee fans. It would seem you are out in force for this series.
Trust me, I would love to. But early deadlines prohibit that. Plus the paper tends to frown on me drinking on the job regardless of how much it helps my prose.
One of the invites came from Ace’s, which is a Yankees bar on Nob Hill in San Francisco. Looks like a pretty good place. They have 30 guys coming over on a bus tonight.
If you’re putting on a tailgate extravaganza in the parking lot today or tomorrow and would like me to spread the word, please to drop me an e-mail and I will be happy to do so.
While nice restaurants are fine, sitting in a lawn chair on a patch of asphalt and drinking beer with your buddies while the burgers are cooking is far better. Stunning I became a sportswriter, isn’t it?
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on Wednesday, June 11th, 2008 at 4:58 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Keep the Journal News bosses happy Pete. We wouldn’t want to be reading slurring words.
Ace’s a great dive bar on Nob Hill. Open at 6am on the weekends. The owners a huge Yankees fan and always has the games on. I’ll be there tomorrow night in section 126. Should be a good game.
Sabathia pitched a shut out last night and looked good according to reports. Westbrook is down with elbow surgery and Carmona is also down. 2d base continues to be a real problem for Cleveland. Neither Asdrubal Cabrera nor Josh Barfield are hitting. Already mired under .500 it doesn’t look like Cleveland is going to turn this around. IMO, Cleveland is shopping CC before the AS break. Are the Yanks still interested? Does Shapiro take back fewer players if he gets Cano in a trade for CC? Do the Yanks think highly enough of Barfield to include him in a deal?
The Fox Sports Bar in terminal 4 concourse A of the Phoenix airport was well-represented with Yankee fans too, by me. Terrific win last night, I hope Cy Rasner can keep it going. But I wish I was at the games in Oakland.
Pete Abe, Nick in SF endorses La Taqueria on Mission and 25th st. in the city, but there are lots of other good ones too. La Taqueria doesn’t puff up its burritos with rice, however, and the tacos with everything are out of this world. Yum, I’m already homesick.
Oh joy I just got into work and we have NO A/C!!!
Murphydog, interesting proposition. I argued the Yankees should have thought about moving Cano for Johan in the offseason, but soundly got thrown out the window for even suggesting such a thing.
i dont think the yankees would be opposed to it, or shouldnt be, as long as they are given the famous ‘72-hour window’ to negotiate a new deal.
jennifer, just be glad this morning isnt yesterday morning…
Yankees are 13-7 in their last 20 games, with 4 of those losses coming by only one run ( and one of THOSE in extra innings ),,,,This feels like a team that is ready to finally go on the “roll” that they are capable of. I would not be surprised to see a 12-3 record compiled against these next 5 teams we are facing, with the chance to move into first place by the end of the month by getting some payback against the Mets at Shea right after that. I’ll be looking forward to the “moves” they make soon, too. I can’t imagine Hawkins, Duncan, Molina, Farnsworth, Veras and yes, even Melky can feel comfortable right now…
I wasn’t at work yesterday, but there was no a/c yesterday as well.
getting wang back on track was huge! and in the minors, horne and karstens are back, which gives us some depth in case we need an emergency start. joba will be at 95 pitches his next outing, and farnsworth is no longer the 8th inning guy, (or at least not the only 8th inning guy). so the pitching staff is showing signs of coming back to life (or at least having options). we really need pettitte to get it back together, then we could go on a tear.
but im not couting any wins before they happen, certainly not expecting them to sweep 3 of the next 5 series as above. inconsistency is the one constant with this team even as they have been playing better this month.
really hoping we put .500 in the rear-view mirror for good tonight, but how many times have i hoped that this season.
If the Yanks deal Cano then yes, Barfield should be part of it. Not sure what the Indians would do with Cabrera in that event. So are we looking at Sabathia and Barfield for Cano, Horne and Kennedy? Is that enough? Too much? I suspect Cleveland would want a “high ceiling” prospect along the lines of Melenacon or Betances, or perhaps Veras or Ohlendorf but I wouldn’t be inclined to go there.
Barfield may have broken a finger last night. He’s spent most of the year in AAA Buffalo, but I like his talent and speed
So…. What are we thinking then. Let’s toss some proposals around:
Yankees receive: SP CC Sabathia
2B Josh Barfield
*plus standard 72-hour window to negotiate
with CC on an extension.
Indians receive: 2B Robinson Cano
SP Alan Horne
OF Shelley Duncan
Its got to hurt a little for both teams for it to work, right? Horne ‘eventually’ adds to a deep pitching staff (Laffey, Lee, Carmona, Byrd, Westbrook, etc.) Cano is under team control at a reasonable cost for years. And Shelley could be substituted by Jose Tabata. But Tabata wouldn’t be in my first offer, if I’m GM. It would be Shelley.
After they hung up, I’d call back two days later and say ‘Cano, Horne and Tabata’.
Yankees get CC, and Barfield, who under the right tutelage could be very decent.
Thoughts? Anger? Agreement?
if sabatthia insists on a contract longer than 5 years, then i dont trade for him at all.
Ummmm – you want a second baseman, Barfield, who would also need “tutelage?” Don’t they supposedly already have that with Cano?
And I still am not convinced the Yankees should get Sabathia. You’re talking mult-multi-year deal and a whole lot of money, plus players. How is that different from the Santana situation?
BB77, sorry, but there is no way Shelley Duncan is a valuable piece in any Yankees potential trade.
i agree with the general conception of CC and Barfield for Cano, IPK, Horne, and maybe another low level minor leaguer.
Read a huge article in TSN that says the Indians may use some of their pitching excess to try and grab a corner OF with pop. Obviously Sizemore is embedded in CF, and Franscisco and Dellucci are holding down the corners.
But they have been looking for corner OF for years. Trot Nixon? Gone. Jason Michaels? Gone.
You have to think Kennedy’s stock has dipped since he was in the mix for the Johan talks. Back when he was 1-0 in 3MLB starts witha miniscule ERA and had been ripping it up in the minors. Now, he’s shown ineffectiveness at the MLB level this year, and he’s injured. His stock has dropped, I imagine.
I think a ‘final offer’ of Cano, Horne and Tabata would get this done, in addition to allowing the Yankees to negotiate over a 72-hour window with CC. Then the question is, whats a good contract for a 28 year old lefty, former Cy Young winner, with weight issues?
I’d offer 5 years, $120, with a 6th year vesting option if he meets innings requirements and games started requirements during the final two years of the deal.
is it realistic to think that the indians would take on cano’s contract when he is just miserable at the plate right now…totally miserable.
TurnTwo… I said offer Shelley in the first offer. Obviously I agree, I think he’s worthless.
But I always was told in negotiations that you never make your best, or final, offer first.
First offer:
Cano, Kennedy and Shelley for CC and Barfield.
(click…. dial tone……)
Second offer:
Cano, Horne and Shelley for CC and Barfield.)
(’hmmmmmm, hold on Cash, I got Epstein on the other line. Let me put you on hold.’ click…… dial tone….)
Final offer:
Cano, Horne and Tabata for CC and Barfield, plus 72 hour window?
How is that different from the Santana situation?
its really not that much different at all, except for the fact that what you were hoping to see out of IPK and Hughes at minimum was progression and development, and to this point you havent even gotten that.
i’m not saying i think they have to do it, but they have to at least consider it, no?
ha! ok, BB, thats a little more realistic.
Cano vs. Barfield:
Cano has never had a fielding percentage above .984.
(05 .975, 06 .984, 07 .984, and currently in 08, .984)
Barfield has ….
Oh, just read a report that he left last night’s game with an injury to his finger.
Forget it.
Turn Two -
I just don’t have faith in Sabathia, I guess, is what it comes down to for me. I hate to give up on Cano, too, although he’s been dismal this season. And I don’t think it’s the Hughes/IPK situation that would move the Yankees to consider a deal – I think it would be Pettitte’s ineffectiveness and uncertainty about whether Pettitte can/should/would return next season.
i think the indians or just about any other team would jump at the chance to get cano. what he’s done previous to this year shows he’s a hitter. sometimes the people closest to the situation cant see the long term value of a guy like cano.
one question, are the indians writing off travis hafner or does he have anything left? might the yankees be interested in aquiring him? it certainly would seem to be a buy-low scenario at this point. is it just an injury problem with him, he has dropped like a rock since the all-star break last year and now is on the d.l.
bronxbomber, the first offer is worthless if the Indians front office reads the LoHud blog, they’ll see right through it!
(just kidding, I get what you’re saying)
I’d hate to see Cano go.
After all the Rod Carew comparisons over the last two years by analysts, plus he’s one of the few ‘young’ players on this team. And you have to wonder what his departure would mean for Melky, his best friend.
Would Melky get serious, stop with the disco’s and the Cuba Libres all night, and play better ball? Or would he sulk, get worse and become an issue? Who knows?
But, only the last decade or so, 2B has become somewhat of a glamour position. 2B hitting 30-40 HR… please.
Get me a guy who can turn the DP 99 out of 100 times, make contact, get on base, steal a base, and maybe hit 5, or ‘whooo-hooo’, say 10 HR.
If Cano can get a bonafide ace pitcher (not that Wang ISN’T, but who says you can only have one ace?) in return, along with a top prospect or two, you pull that trigger.
Second basemen should be easy pickings. Its the top of the rotation studs that are a dime a dozen.
Go ask Kevin Brown, Javy Vasquez, Jose Contreras, Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano, Jared Right, or The Big (Bust) Unit…
to an extent, Doreen, i agree with that. if Pettitte continues to struggle, that would be what pushes the Yankees over the edge in a poss Sabathia deal, because i think Cashman was hoping on having Pettitte around for 2009, too… and if he cant get the job done now, you cant assume he’ll turn it around to give you the production you need from him for 2009 at the price you’re gonna have to pay him.
“might the yankees be interested in aquiring him (Hafner)?
he’s a full-time DH… no chance.
“…the paper tends to frown on me drinking on the job regardless of how much it helps my prose.”
Pete – just think – you could be the Bukowski of sports beat writers if you did!
LOL… said it before, saying it again:
I love you Nick in SF.
Let me know if you catch any of Joba’s performances down at A-ball against Dontrelle. I still can’t ‘believe’ they sent Joba down for pumping his fist from the dugout.
PS– D-Train to A-ball Lakeland? Wow! To think I once fantasized about him in ’stripes.
Yeeeesh. A $10 M A-ball player. I hope he’s buying KFC, McDonalds or Olive Garden for the WHOLE bus after each game. Sharing a hotel room with a poor kid making $400 a week!
I think the determining factor in any CC trade by the Yanks is what it will take to get CC signed to an extension. 7 years is obviously out, but I’m not sure that 5 years isn’t too long, either. Yeah, he pitched great last night, and he’s young enough to think that he’s just entering his prime, but will his weight cause him to self-destruct? Even 5 years can seem an awfully long time in the wrong deal. Just look at Carl Pavano.
and i just dont buy into the Sabathia isnt dependable concept.
all he’s done since he’s come into the league is be dominant the majority of his starts. he’s a LHP, with no real injury history, who can anchor the top of the rotation with Wang, Joba, and crew for the next 5 years.
thats just the way i see him… and the way i saw Johan too, fwiw.
“I can’t imagine Hawkins, Duncan, Molina, Farnsworth, Veras and yes, even Melky can feel comfortable right now…”
Molina and Melky are safe. Hawkins is a DFA candidate (if he could pitch 3 innings, he’d be a fine mop-up man (we need one of those, for 8-0 losses and the such)), but as is, he’s a sunk cost, and should be gone as soon as they need the roster spot.
Duncan should be in AAA getting ABs. He’s not getting his stroke back on the bench, that’s for sure.
Farnsworth, I’d try to get whatever I can from the Tigers or Braves for him. Barring that, he stays. They won’t DFA him unless they absolutely -need- the roster spot (not likely).
I’ve been ok with Veras. He’s learning. I like him better than Hawkins and Farnsworth, that’s for sure.
I agree Turn.
He had a rough start this year. He’s currently 4-8. But he’s come on hot as of late, and he’s playing ona terrible team.
You have to wonder about the Z factor as well. Carlos Zambrano went through the same thing last year in April and May, had a horrible start, and a lot of people thought his contract status was weighing heavy on his thoughts.
The Cubs were smart to lock him up. I don’t care if he’s an ‘NL’ pitcher, I would have thrown the Brinks truck and the gold key to the partner’s crapper if he hit free agency in his 20’s.
Love the Z. Pedro-esque from his prime.
If Barfield’s hurt, that scotches the deal from consideration, unless it’s not a big one – he’s listed as day to day and he says he’s fine. Plus he has a couple of weeks to heal before the AS Game.
Yes, he needs tutelage, but he’s apparently faster than Cano. Barfield is 26, so his late development does worry me a bit. He has to catch fire this year or next or he’s kind of a bust. It’s clearly a gamble, but aren’t all trades? But you shouldn’t look at it as a one for one replacement at 2d because trading Cano might get you CC. If they tighten up the pitching with CC and everybody else hits to the back of their baseball card, they can carry a lighter bat at 2d (they are doing it now).
With all due respect, it’s precisely the Hughes/IPK situation that will move The Yanks to consider a deal. The Yanks’ pitching is in a world of hurt for next year, IMO, because Hughes and IPK won’t get enough innings this year. So, given innings caps in 2009, Hughes, IPK and Joba are going to be limited as starters.
Projecting today, Pettitte looks like he’s winding down and they won’t invite him back. IMO, you will need a proven pitcher with the ability to go 200+ innings. If not CC, then who? As long as he’s not hurt, I say go for it.
“Plus the paper tends to frown on me drinking on the job regardless of how much it helps my prose.”
See, Pete, that’s why you need to quit this journalism thing and become a novelist, where drinking on the job is not only tolerated, but expected.
How long was Santana’s deal? I think Sabathia will be seeking a contract along the same lines.
I wouldn’t deal Cano for Sabathia.
I’d like to have Sabathia, for the money, sure. But Barfield? He’s shown no major league ability yet, whereas Cano’s been on the batting leaderboard twice, and is only 25. Has he been bad this year? Sure, but he did hit .295 in May (although for little power; OPS+ of 107). :shrug:
I don’t think you give up on a guy after one horrid month and one slightly above average one for half a season of an ace (and the right to give him a lot of money). Heck, Cano’s been better than 2004 Jeter so far!
Hypothetical time!
Let’s say:
The Yankees get a ‘bonafide, top of the line, ace starter in a trade, in the next month or so. Say that ace, (or Number 2 ace behind the Wanger) goes crazy.
I’m talkign when ‘Randy Johnson was dealt to the Astros for a half year crazy’, when he put up 10-1, a 1.28 ERA and had 4 CG SHO.
So, you have a rotation with Wang, ‘Ace #2′, Pettitte, Mussina and Rasner as the five man, until Hughes and Kennedy come back and the trio of them DUKES it out for the number 5 slot. Do you move Joba BACK to the set-up role to fortify the bullpen, rebuild that unbreakable bridge?
Or do you keep Joba in the ro’, as the 5 man, and slap Hughes/Kennedy/Rasner into the bullpen/minors?
What do YOU do? Its a tough decision for me…
From Buster’s blog this morning:
“C.C. Sabathia made pitching look easy Tuesday night, writes Jim Ingraham. The Indians have reportedly been scouting the Red Sox farm system, presumably in preparation for the possibility of trade talks with Boston about Sabathia. Let’s play this scenario out a bit.
Here’s how the Red Sox could rationalize a deal for Sabathia: They have a whole lot of depth in their farm system, and by adding Sabathia for the last two months and the postseason, they could strengthen an already deep rotation and apply a 6-foot-7, 300-pound hammer as they pursued their third championship in five years. They have the talent depth in their farm system to tell the Indians: Look, you can’t have Justin Masterson, Jon Lester or Clay Buchholz, but we can make a deal built around others. Double-A pitcher Michael Bowden could be an interesting conversation piece, given his dominant showing for Portland.
And at the end of the year, the Red Sox could just offer Sabathia arbitration and let him walk away as a free agent and recoup two draft picks for the 2007 Cy Young Award winner. To repeat: All of that is pure speculation, and probably won’t happen.
Some folks within the industry think that if Sabathia is traded, the Cubs will be the most aggressive in bidding for him. “They’re going for it this year,” said one GM. “Other teams are laying back and might not want to trade prospects, but the Cubs will.”"
“Or do you keep Joba in the ro’, as the 5 man, and slap Hughes/Kennedy/Rasner into the bullpen/minors?
What do YOU do? Its a tough decision for me…”
Joba’s in the rotation to stay.
Rasner’s in the rotation until he stumbles (2-3 bad or 5-6 mediocre starts) and a replacement is in the offing, when he probably becomes the long man.
Stop trying to trade Robi, he’s stinks (right now) and please Josh Barfield is a scrub, he not anything special, he’s just a defender that’s all.
“Projecting today, Pettitte looks like he’s winding down and they won’t invite him back. IMO, you will need a proven pitcher with the ability to go 200+ innings. If not CC, then who? As long as he’s not hurt, I say go for it.”
Agreed. And the other free agent starters,a ssuming no one is tarded and/or signs long termextensions, are the likes of Bronson Arroyo, Ben Sheets, and AJ Burnett. All of whom will want top dollars.
I hate Arroyo. I just do.
And Sheets and Burnett might as well have ‘Pavano and Wright’ written on their foreheads!
But Brandin, Barfield sin’t the main component of the trade for Cano, its CC.
*Brandon… sorry about the misspell!
“Some folks within the industry think that if Sabathia is traded, the Cubs will be the most aggressive in bidding for him. “They’re going for it this year,†said one GM. “Other teams are laying back and might not want to trade prospects, but the Cubs will.”
This is my bet.
The Cubs -have- to win this year.
This ain’t the Yankees, history of excellence, 4 wins in the last 12 years. Or the Red Sox, twice in 5.
This is the -Cubs-.
“he’s just a defender that’s all.”
Exactly. Thats all you need a 2B, a defender.
But Brandon, Barfield sin’t the main component of the trade for Cano, its CC.
And he’s free next year.
“And Sheets and Burnett might as well have ‘Pavano and Wright’ written on their foreheads!”
I’d keep tabs on Sheets and Burnett, but wouldn’t give them crazy offers. A Pavano-esque 4 years $10-12M would be my cap.
Did you see this? (sorry, just getting back from vacation and throwing things out there):
“Mientkiewicz bites back
Utilityman Doug Mientkiewicz had his first chance to respond publicly to Arizona starter Randy Johnson’s “stretcher” remark that was made after an argument between those two resulted in benches and bullpens emptying Monday.
“It didn’t bother me at all,” Johnson said of the incident at the time. “If it would have, he’d probably be in a stretcher, and I’d probably be out of the game.”
Mientkiewicz shot back in kind when asked about it by reporters yesterday.
“I’ve been on a stretcher before. And, technically, he’s been out of the game for three years, in my mind,” Mientkiewicz said, referring to Johnson’s largely unsuccessful stint with the New York Yankees. “That just shows how mentally weak he is: New York beat him down.”"
Rishi – good post, but I can’t see the Indians trading CC for a deal built around an AA starter. They’d be giving up a ML starting pitcher, and would be looking for someone to fill that slot, I’d think. I think, that to trade CC, they would want a Bucholz/Lester, to fill their needs and make the deal palatable. And if that were the case, I think Boston would have to think long and hard, just on the financial aspect of it – giving up a young, cost controlled pitcher with good upside, for an older guy with much higher costs.
“Do you move Joba BACK to the set-up role to fortify the bullpen, rebuild that unbreakable bridge?”
No, No, No, and No again.
Exactly. Thats all you need a 2B, a defender.
No because it’s our offense that is struggling Robi has the upside there, he defense isn’t costing us games.
I’d keep tabs on Sheets and Burnett, but wouldn’t give them crazy offers. A Pavano-esque 4 years $10-12M would be my cap.
Absolutely not. Your already tying $$$ in a ridiculous deal 4 yrs. w/ either of those 2 is like playing shots at the bar w/o a designated driver.
Joba is in the rotation for the rest of his career as far as I’m concerned. Obviously if he pulls a Dontrelle Willis I’d put him back in the pen.
About Cano for Sabathia ideas. I wouldn’t even trade Cano straight up for Sabathia. Cano is cheap(ish), young and extremely talented. He has been bad for a few months but his talent didn’t just dissapear overnight.
Cleveland would never make that deal, first it’s the Red Sox that’s the team that knocked them out of the playoffs. Second they are looking for offensive postion players, Bowden is not gonna do it for Cleveland.
Can someone explain to me why it makes sense to trade our only all-star entering his prime years and locked up in an affordable contract for a guy that we can just write a check for and buy in 4 months?
Makes no sense to me – Cano will be fine. The Yanks know him better than anyone and signed him to a long term deal – you don’t do that if you think his character is going to be a problem.
I’d keep tabs on Sheets and Burnett, but wouldn’t give them crazy offers. A Pavano-esque 4 years $10-12M would be my cap.
I wouldn’t pay either of those two walking disasters $10.00 to wash my car, let alone $10M to play for my baseball team!
I agree that Joba’s in the rotation to stay. I think they’re committed to getting him to his innings limit in the rotation, get the growing pains out of the way now while they need the starts from him. And the upside is that he IS that Ace #2.
Question for serious baseball folk, would it be a bad health risk to move Joba back to the bullpen near the end of the season if he’s nearing his innings limit and they’re in good shape to make the playoffs and might be shortening the rotation?
And I meant a bad health risk for Joba, I know it would be a dangerous mental health risk for the “Joba was born to setup!” types that walk among us.
“Cleveland would never make that deal, first it’s the Red Sox that’s the team that knocked them out of the playoffs. Second they are looking for offensive postion players, Bowden is not gonna do it for Cleveland.”
Exactly. And, honestly, from what I’ve read in the past, a lot of teams in the league do not like to deal with Boston in trades since the summer of ‘05, when they backed out of a three-way with COL and BAL, after the first leg of the tarde was done.
Boston, to me, it seems only deals with a certain few teams they have history with or relations.
Marlins? John Henry’s old stomping grounds. Padres? Lucchino’s old sandbox.
After the Sox screwed the COL/BAL in the Byrnes/Bigbie/Nixon deal, COL said they would never deal with the Sox again. All that Todd Helton to the Sox stuff last year was bogus…
There’s no way Cashman is going to trade for Sabathia after passing on Santana.
And they aren’t trading Cano.
It wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever and would be a complete 180 from what Cashman has tried to do the last couple of years.
Cano may be struggling, but this team just gave him a long term extension over the offseason – something they never do with young players.
Forget all the Sabathia talk. He’s not coming to the Yanks.
I don’t see how it would require Cano+Kennedy+others to get Sabathia, but Masterson, Lester, and Buchholz would all be untouchable. I can’t see Cleveland making a deal that doesn’t include a major league ready starter.
“I’d keep tabs on Sheets and Burnett, but wouldn’t give them crazy offers. A Pavano-esque 4 years $10-12M would be my cap.
Absolutely not. Your already tying $$$ in a ridiculous deal 4 yrs. w/ either of those 2 is like playing shots at the bar w/o a designated driver.”
Honestly, I don’t think that poorly of Sheets. He’s had a -lot- of success (when healthy), and his health issues haven’t been of the arm injury sort (which is good, IMO).
I think the team that signs him is going to have a bargain on their hands.
I don’t see how it would require Cano+Kennedy+others to get Sabathia, but Masterson, Lester, and Buchholz would all be untouchable. I can’t see Cleveland making a deal that doesn’t include a major league ready starter.
That’s not even what Shapiro would ask for, think Pedroia, Lars Anderson, Mike Jones
Extending on what Buster Olney said.
So, say the Sox somehow MIRACUOUSLY pull this off, and then they let CC leave via free agency AFTER rejecting arbitration.
(It pains me to write this, but) What if the Yankees miss the playoffs, and the Sox win number three in five years, and there’s CC Sabathia sitting on the free agent market.
Do you not think Hank will throw every last dollar to get him? AND, to make matters worse, then the Sox would get two draft picks from the Yankees.
The Yankees would get screwed if that happened.
If. That. Happened.
Going to find the nearest church…later!
No to CC, definitely not at 7 years $150 mill. That’s insane for a guy who looks to be one bag of cheetos away from a heart attack.
For those who ripped Wang for his last PO performance even though he’s been so stella two straight seasons in a roll, CC’s PO performance last year wasn’t exactly great either. He was pretty much as bad as Wang was, he just had a better offense.
Anyone who still wants to bring in CC, go back to watch his PO games last year, imagine a 300lb guy standing still on a 96 degree summer day let alone pitching for 7 innings, and then think about how much of a long-term commitment $150mill at 7 years is. Except by the 2nd year of that cushy contract CC will probably balloon to 350 lb given his family history (for those who didn’t know, it is well documented that CC is MUCH slimmer than the rest of his family who are all huge).
Hey, you can make a good case for not including Cano in a deal for CC as well as make a case against trading for CC at all.
IMO, it’s “win now” for the Yankees in a lot of ways since IPK and Hughes didn’t work out any better than they have. Why do I think that? Now that each of Hughes, Joba and IPK are hamstrung with big innings caps for 2009, where are my innings coming from next year? I will definitely need to acquire a proven starter. Can I afford to waste another year of Jeter and Po and Mo while I wait for my young pitching to come on line? Would I like to see CC go to Boston? Would I like to see CC go someplace else after passing on Johan, and then be left with AJ Burnett?
Robbie has been oddly out of it, and not just this year. And in Baseball terms, it’s not “just a few months.” We’re getting to the AS Break – mid season – and he’s still first-pitch swinging and looking lost despite making a little more contact. He’s got real focus and maturity problems IMO, but if you prefer you can say he doesn’t self-correct. Will it change? Well, that’s a gamble, isn’t it? People would take that gamble but get ill thinking about some others – not sure why.
If Cano is what it takes to secure CC, do it. Waiting for CC to be around as a FA is hoping somebody else doesn’t make the deal for him now. Cash at least has to talk to Shapiro seriously. If Shapiro is unreasonable, the decision is easy. But I think they’d jump at the chance to get Cano. It’s Barfield, Cabrera and Jamey Carroll in the 2d base depth chart in Cleveland.
Honestly, I don’t think that poorly of Sheets. He’s had a -lot- of success (when healthy), and his health issues haven’t been of the arm injury sort (which is good, IMO).
Your on your own there.
If the Sox do trade for Sabathia, imagine their rotation:
Beckett
Sabathia
Matsuzaka
Lester
Bucholz
Wow..
Cleveland, hurry up and trade CC to the Cubs!
“Would Melky get serious, stop with the disco’s and the Cuba Libres all night, and play better ball? Or would he sulk, get worse and become an issue? Who knows?
But, only the last decade or so, 2B has become somewhat of a glamour position. 2B hitting 30-40 HR… please.
Get me a guy who can turn the DP 99 out of 100 times, make contact, get on base, steal a base, and maybe hit 5, or ‘whooo-hooo’, say 10 HR.
If Cano can get a bonafide ace pitcher (not that Wang ISN’T, but who says you can only have one ace?) in return, along with a top prospect or two, you pull that trigger.
Second basemen should be easy pickings. Its the top of the rotation studs that are a dime a dozen.”
Second baseman who hit and play defense like Cano are also a dime a dozen.
Barfield may have a higher fielding percentage but does he have a greater range than Cano? No he doesn’t. Range > Fielding Percentage. Cano makes more errors probably because he gets to more balls.
Who says Melky isn’t serious? All I hear about is how he works out with A-Rod every day. Is that not serious enough for you?
“There’s no way Cashman is going to trade for Sabathia after passing on Santana”
One of the reasons they passed on Santana was that in the middle of the talks Andy told them he was coming back. That was the pitcher they added. Once they re-signed Pettitte they felt they had the starting rotation set. With Pettitte not doing that well this season, the Yanks may decide not to bring him back or Andy might decide to retire. That might then cause the Yanks to go after Sabathia.
I love minky sticking it to the unit!!!
Wish he was still on our bench.
The most common misconception of the new Yankee hierarchy is that Hank Steinbrenner calls most if not all the shots.
In fact, that’s not true at all. Hal has just as much power as Hank does and Hal is the smart one.
It was Hank would openly wanted Santana and it was Hal and Cashman who said “No.”
It was Hank who said at the end of April that Joba should be in the rotation back then.
Obviously, he was overruled because that process didn’t start until a month later.
Just because Hank was the biggest mouth doesn’t mean he has the only voice.
murphydog , my god he’s not going to Boston, Shapiro isn’t a moron he knows he has to get value for him. It would take atleast on A offensive player and to bluechippers. Ask yourself would the Red Sox deal Pedroia and Lars ? would they deal Ellsbury and Lars …both would be no. Bucholz isn’t going to entice them but so much. Plus your missing the point CC has stated he’s not signing nothing this season, if he is FA in the winter you go after him. Right now resist the urge.
What is the innings cap on Jobs this season?150???
“Second baseman who hit and play defense like Cano are also a dime a dozen.”
“Its the top of the rotation studs that are a dime a dozen.”
I think you guys mean that those types of players are NOT a dime a dozen.
“The Yankees are aggressively shopping right-hander LaTroy Hawkins, two rival executives say, intending to clear a spot for a reliever who currently is at Class AAA. Righty J.B. Cox, who missed all of last season after undergoing elbow-ligament transplant surgery, is one candidate; he began the season at Class A, but has since moved to AAA, where he has allowed one run in 12 1/3 innings. Righty David Robertson, who began the season at AA, also has been impressive at AAA. Hawkins, signed to a one-year, $3.75 million free-agent contract, has a 6.08 ERA in 22 appearances . . . ”
Courtesy of Ken Rosenthal.
“What is the innings cap on Jobs this season?150???”
Soft cap at 140, hard cap at 150, unless they make the postseason.
Second baseman who hit and play defense like Cano are also a dime a dozen
No they are not. Name me 8 2B in the ML who have Robi’s upside in offense.
Its the top of the rotation studs that are a dime a dozen
No.
I think you guys mean that those types of players are NOT a dime a dozen.
I hope so Patrick
There is no chance that the yankees are trading Cano for CC Sabbathia. None.
CC Sabbathia is a 3 month rental player at this point. That’s all he is.
That’s not worth very much – never mind an all start 25 year old second baseman.
I wouldn’t trade Robinson Cano 1 for 1 for CC never mind throwing in other players like Alan Horne.
The Indians won’t even get anywhere close to Robinson Cano for Sabbathia.
Look at how much talent the Mets got for Santana. Santana is a much better pitcher than Sabbathia. The Mets traded for Santana at the beginning of the season.
Yet somehow the Yankees are going to give up orders of magnitude more talent than the Mets did for an inferior pitcher? Really?
And its not just the Santana deal. Look at the Eric Bedard trade or the Dan Haren trade. Those guys were signed at very reasonable contracts for 2 years. None of those deals involved anywhere the talent of a Robinson Cano nevermind Cano, Horne and another player.
Look at how much the Atlanta gave up for Texeira – again nowhere near Cano alone.
Fact is the market for Sabbathia will be very small just like it was for Santana.
How many teams want to pay Sabbathia? And if you can’t sign him long term are you really going to give up value to get him for 2 months?
Trading Cano for Sabbathia is the kind of absolutely awful move this team used to make. Sabbathia is having a very inconsistent year to boot.
He’s an enormous risk to sign long term. Enormous. Much bigger than Santana. That’s a contract waiting to be an albatross around a franchise’s neck.
And you just don’t give up any young, major league all star caliber player for a two month rental.
And trading Cano now is silly as his value is at the lowest its been since this time last year when he was also struggling.
BTW if CC is going anywhere it would be to the Dodgers or Cubs they have the pieces to make it happen.
I’m not in favor of trading for CC – but for people who are mocking the HEFTY lefty, he has an excellent track record of innings pitched per season and has been very durable. He certainly wouldn’t be the first whale to exhibit a rubber arm (think Wells).
It was his greater durability and length that gave him the edge last year over Beckett in the Cy Young voting imho.
“Anyone who still wants to bring in CC, go back to watch his PO games last year, imagine a 300lb guy standing still on a 96 degree summer day let alone pitching for 7 innings”
I’m not saying they should trade for CC, but how hot do you think it gets in Cleveland? I can assure you it gets just as muggy and hot and NY.
CB -
I totally agree with you about the “rental” aspect of CC – but weren’t you stunned last year when the Braves traded Salty for Teixeira? That seems like an overpay – but I gues they were getting 1.5 years rather than a half.
Brandon:
Can’t say you are wrong.
But, IMO, for the right price CC signs. A solid proven starter is essential for the Yankees, not just this year, but for the next two if you want to avoid another two seasons of staggering out of the gate and lagging behind. Plus, the foundation of this team’s offense is not getting any younger and neither is the closer. There is a lot of incentive IMO to make a bold move to lock up CC. Good trades have to hurt a little on each side.
Schilling is not coming back. The Boston kids are a little farther along than the Yankee kids but they are still learning. Dice-K is not a world beater and what’s up with Joshie? Are really you so sure Boston doesn’t go at least as far for CC as they did for Johan?
“I think you guys mean that those types of players are NOT a dime a dozen.”
Yeah, that is what I meant.
Mid-range free agent starters are the worst things to pursue. Top of the rotation guys are the most valuable and require some level of risk. I wouldn’t mess around with Sheets because of his injury history, ditto Burnett who’s an underachiever.
Sabathia is a bona-bide stud, he’s younger than Santana (by 16 months) and he’s a lefty (like Santana). Frankly I don’t see much difference in the two situations, though I’m less concerned about Sabathia’s long term health.
I’m not trying to deal Cano per se, but I want a big time starter and there’s a price to pay for that. Sure, waiting until the off-season makes it just a $$ deal, but getting him for half this year and tying him up for the future has a lot of value.
For the record, I was opposed to Santana trade until I saw the last alleged offer from Minnesota (Kennedy, Marquez, Cabrera) which I would have done in a heartbeat if it was true.
“but weren’t you stunned last year when the Braves traded Salty for Teixeira? ”
I was surprised that the Braves moved into a win now mode but was not that surprised they gave up Salty.
The main reason why is that they already had McCann who is one of the 2 or 3 best young catchers in the game.
I always assumed the braves would trade Salty – I just assumed they would do it for young pitching.
I wonder if they will even get a few maple bats for him?
“For the record, I was opposed to Santana trade until I saw the last alleged offer from Minnesota (Kennedy, Marquez, Cabrera) which I would have done in a heartbeat if it was true.”
And the Yankees would have also. I’ve heard no credible source say that offer was made by the Twins.
Schilling is not coming back. The Boston kids are a little farther along than the Yankee kids but they are still learning. Dice-K is not a world beater and what’s up with Joshie? Are really you so sure Boston doesn’t go at least as far for CC as they did for Johan?
Are you really that concerned ? For Boston to land CC they’d have to trade thier offensive studs. That alone tells you it’s not going to happen, I don’t see Boston dealing a Lars Andereson/Pedroia or Ellsbury/Lars Anderson and the SS/3B that replaced Lowell is not going to be enough to land him. Your worrying about nothing.
they are not trading Cano to rent Sabathia,that would be classic stupidity.
Barfield stinks the guy hit 240 in AAA.
the delusions continue. The Yankee solutions are internal;; they have numerous good pen options in the minors and have a athletic outfiled 4th option waiting by the phone.
The Indian are not giving up on the season before the all star game if at all and there division stinks so they will wait and see…
yeah trade a 25 yr old career 307 hitter for a rental pitcher, sounds like the good old 1980 yankees………and we are doing this because we are one starting pitcher away from winning it all!!!!!!!!!!!they got numerous issues including starting pitching.
another issue is Derek, can he play better then Julio Lugo, PLEASE>
“he has an excellent track record of innings pitched per season and has been very durable.”
But on the flip side this is actually one of the things that’s really concerning about getting Sabbathia.
He’s logged a ton of innings on that arm. He’s been worked so hard that it really makes it much more likely that his arm is going to blow out at some point.
He threw 256 innings last year. His prior career high was 210 innings way back in 2002.
It’s very plausible to believe that his struggles this year are related to the enormous workload he shouldered last year?
cotts doesnt indicate a ntc for sabatthia, but he will still control any negotiations about a new contract. what he wants to do this offseason will be the most important aspect of any potential trade. if cc decides that he wont sign a long term contract with any team he’s dealt to, his value in a trade is greatly dimisished as a rent-a-player. this would greatly affect who’s in and who’s out for a possible trade. if he’s going to be available after the season do you go after him at a lower cost with no long term contract? or do you just wait till the season is over and try to sign him?
i think cc and his agent are going to be the major players here, if he doesnt want to be dealing with just one suitor, he will indicate this before any possible trade and it completly skews the trade value. if he’s open to negotiating a deal but says it has to be at least 6/$135M do you go there?
right now, there’s not enough information availabe to assess any possible trades for him.
I was going to write something about including Cano in a possible CC trade. Then I got to CB’s post which basically said it all.
If Cano was hitting like he was last year, you folks still interested in moving him? Think of getting rid of the old, moldy players. Keep the young fruit that’s yet to ripen.
(I still say bench Melky to teach him a lesson-tough love)
I’m not trying to deal Cano per se, but I want a big time starter and there’s a price to pay for that. Sure, waiting until the off-season makes it just a $$ deal, but getting him for half this year and tying him up for the future has a lot of value.
You get him for $$$ in the offseason if you want him that badly. Cano isn’t going anywhere.
CB:
Can’t say you are wrong either. Waiting around for CC at the end of the season may well be the way to go despite the risk he’ll go elsewhere.
But I think Cash has to explore it this year. This is not a decision made in a vacuum so I’m looking at Tampa Bay’s season this year and projecting into ‘09 plus the likelihood that Toronto bounces back next year with all their pitching. IMO, the Yankee rotation is a genuine problem for two more years without an additional proven starter. So, it’s a big risk to get CC but maybe a bigger one not to. The fans and Steinbrenners will not tolerate two more crappy, uneven seasons.
“Sabathia is a bona-bide stud,”
Are you sure about that? If you are you should look to see what his performance actually has been.
Sabbathia has had two very good years in his career – 2006 and 2007. That’s it.
And neither year was he great. 2006 he had an ERA+ of 140 and in 2007 143. Both were very good years. He won the Cy Young last year because he threw a ton of innings and more importantly no pitcher in the AL had a truly great year as Santana’s performance last year wasn’t up to what he’d done in the past.
Last year Jake Peavy had a truly great year. Compare his numbers (even adjusted for league) to Sabbathia’s.
Sabbathia’s 2 very good years are nowhere even close to being as good as the performance that Santana, Brandon Webb, and Halladay have put up at their best.
Do you want to pay a pitcher with 2 very good years, who has a terrible body $23M/ year for 7 years – never mind giving up all start talent for him on top of that?
“If Cano was hitting like he was last year, you folks still interested in moving him?”
yeah, because then it wouldnt take much more in a package to get Sabathia. think Soriano to the Rangers for ARod.
“they are not trading Cano to rent Sabathia,that would be classic stupidity.”
except noone here is advocating this. i think everyone who has mentioned any potential trade for CC has included a disclaimer that includes a window to negotiate an extention.
“But on the flip side this is actually one of the things that’s really concerning about getting Sabbathia”
I hate to sound like Mad Dog – but 25 years ago those innings numbers would have been typical for starters, not exceptional. I don’t know if the human race has pressed the reverse button on evolution, but it seems to me that some guys have durability (Wells and Halladay spring to mind) and some guys don’t (rajah of rehab).
Maybe the way people pitch really is different today than then with more split fingers and sliders than before, but I have a hard time buying that proposition.
(I will never agree w/ Doggie again, I feel like I need to take a shower!)
murphydog, man for real they are not trading Robi Cano, especially for a SP that you get for $$$ in the offseason. Cleveland also is not dealing him at bargin basement price that is not how they work.
First off, Nick in SF is not only the funniest poster on this blog, he gives great restaurant recommendations.
La Taqueria is a must stop if you are in the Bay Area. I have gone from the airport to La Taqueria quite a few times on my trips to SF. Well worth a stop.
Murph brings up an interesting proposition. The kind of stuff that makes for good conversation.
I have always maintained Cano was not an untouchable. That’s not just hysterical fan talk. Its my observation on watching him for the last 4 years.
Last year, both Cano and Melky were read the riot act by certain people in the Yankee organization. Both were closer than a lot of people realize to being sent to AAA.
Cano and Melky, especially Cano, got hot and things worked out.
This year, Melky has kept up with his hard work with Arod and has generally played to his potential all season.
Cano? Despite being armed with a new deal, has fallen off the map. He has been far and away the biggest disappointment to date in the Yankees season.
If the Yankees want to acquire CC during the season, they don’t have to do a 3-1 deal. Cano (and perhaps a minor league pitcher like McCuthen, Horne or Aceves) for CC and either Barfield or Cabrera is the best offer Mark Shapiro will get for CC.
Why? You deal with knowns rather than unknowns with regard to major league talent. Shapiro will never find a player with Cano’s talent on the trade market for CC. Whether he could unlock should he acquire him is another story.
No one doubts Cano’s talent. The big doubt, regardless of the number of stats people put forth, is consistency.
He isn’t a consistent player. That may come in time or it may not. Its a big unknown. He’s not a rookie. He’s in his fourth year and the comparisons to Rod Carew really have to end. He’s no where close to being another Rod Carew.
Pitching isn’t about looking like a bodybuilder. Carl Pavano looks like a well conditioned athlete. So does Rich Harden. David Wells looks like a John Goodman stand in. Who has had a better major league career?
If a Cano-CC deal was ever on the table, its an interesting call on what to do. Its a bold move for both teams.
The question is, which team would benefit long term from it?
I don’t think its quick answer to that question.
Its not like they would be trading Cano for some nobody. CC did win the Cy Young last year.
Its an interesting proposition and fun to discuss.
Its not however, something the Yankees should (or would, IMO) dismiss out of hand. If that offer ever was extended by the Indians, I’m sure the Yankees would think long and hard about doing that deal.
You can find second baseman. They don’t have to be all stars. Pretty damn tough to find an under 30, left handed Cy Young Award winners who, unlike Santana, aren’t losing velocity or effectiveness.
CC was hitting 97 on the gun in the 9th inning last night, a velocity Santana has not seen in a year.
He’s a damn good pitcher. Worth giving up Cano to get? I don’t know but, its definitely something worth thinking about.
Turn Two,
Is Cano someone in particular that the Indians are targeting? Or is this just blog fodder?
And what happened to Cleveland? Weren’t they supposed to contend this year? Aren’t they the same team plus a supernatural Cliff Lee?
C.C. was supposed to re-up with the Indians with the hometown discount, but was getting pressured by the players’ union to hit the market. Now they suck and he’ll either come to us in some lopsided deal in favor of the Indians, or he’ll go to the Sox for those maple bats Jennifer mentioned.
Those are all reasonable objections to a Cano deal to get CC.
But what’s changed for the better in Boston since the offer for Santana? Schilling is maybe done, Wakefield is Wakefield, the youngsters are not completely ready, although they may be farther along than the Yankee kid pitchers.
If Boston made good faith offers for Santana, and they are honestly evaluating their own pitching, why are people so sure they have no interest now? Has their pitching improved since the Santana offers?
Another question: Are Tampa Bay and Toronto going to be worse or better next year? It’s not a two team race anymore in the AL East. More pressure to put together a solid rotation.
murphydog,
I know that Cano is unbelievably frustrating. But there may be fewer good second baseman than any other position in all of baseball.
If you were to compare the top 5 second base prospects in baseball to the top 5 at nearly every other position its startling to see how bad the second baseman are.
He’s an unbelievably valuable player when he’s playing well. He’s going to rebound.
And trading for CC is fraught with huge risk. Signing him long term is not something I would do even on the free agent market. There’s a not insignificant risk that Sabathia’s next contract turns out to be comparable to Barry Zito’s.
So how much risk do you want to accept for Sabathia? That’s what it gets down to. When you look at his body of work he’s nowhere close to being as good as the true elite level of pitchers in the game.
I’d pass. The contract is going to kill some team.
An elite, power hitting second baseman with plus defensive skills is a rarer commodity than a front line starter. Utley’s on his own level. But then Cano is second. Then there’s a huge chasm with the rest of the league. Maybe Brian Roberts is third but he’s nowhere as good.
mel, complete blog fodder as far as i know. i’m just playing the game myself bc i’m bored at work.
the indians are basically the same team, but decided they dont want to score runs this season. i certainly dont count them out of the race, especially considering the White Sox are the team leading that division right now, but the indians arent stupid. if they dont reasonably close the gap to within 4 or 5 games come July, they are going to move CC. just my opinion, though.
mel:
I think I started all the Cano crap this am. It’s blog fodder.
I like trade banter. Don’t assume a trial balloon being floated is an endorsement of the proposed deal. I just get tired of guys proposing deals where the Yankees give up spare parts and assorted overpaid garbage for current all-stars.
No one is trading for Sabathia as a rental and comments to that effect are just ignorant.
Even with the CC talk, isn’t acquiring a LH reliever a much higher priority right now?
I also fear the combination of a long-term C.C. contract, and trading some of our best prospects.
I love his K:BB, but you can hardly call his ERA, WHIP, BAA, or even his record dominating. Far, far from Johan stats. And his (limited) post season action has been mediocre.
Would he help the team this year? Absolutely! But I’m not sure about paying for 6 years + Cano + Horne.
“No they are not. Name me 8 2B in the ML who have Robi’s upside in offense.”
Doubt there are 8, but I can name about 25 who are playing closer to their upside than Cano is to his. He’s been awful. After a fair month of May, he’s back at it in June with a .268 OBP. ZERO walks in his last 63 plate appearances is inexcusable.
“An elite, power hitting second baseman”
not that i dont like robby as much as the next guy, but id hardly consider him a power hitter. can he hit HR’s? sure, but thats not his game.
and IMO, Brian Roberts is at least as good a player as Robby, because he’s got the traditional speed you expect from a 2B to go along with some power and solid defensive play.
I don’t think the discussions are about renting Sabathia. It would be about signing him to a new deal.
If that deal was on the table, CC’s agents would have to think about whether or not to go on the open market.
Its not an easy call.
If he was a FA, Boston isn’t signing him. They just aren’t. They will posture but, won’t go for that number. They could have acquired Santana for Lester AND Ellsbury and not missed a beat. They passed. They won’t pay CC that kind of money and then have to deal with Beckett. Not happening.
The Mets won’t either. They have enough money tied up in one pitcher. With all the holes on that team, they aren’t tying up more money on another.
Forget the Dodgers. Frank McCourt won’t pay the money. Its not his style.
It really comes down to the Yankees and Tigers. If you are CC, where do you want to play? Perhaps you take an in season deal from the Yankees to lock up your future rather than playing the open market in a marketplace that seems to be limited for your services at this time.
Its an interesting call from all sides. If you are the Yankees, do you make this move now? If you are the Indians, do you trade CC in a year where, despite your struggles, you are still in the race? If you are CC, do you leave some money on the table to sign a new deal?
Lots of questions with no easy answers.
86w183, I agree about the LH reliever being a higher priority, just yesterday the Padres DFA Wilfredo Ledezma and Erick Threets is a FA both can be signed to a minor league assignment contract.
Moving Cano is as foolish as was that notion last year and during the off season. Thank God Cashman & Co. are not on board with that way of thinking!
This guy will be a Gold Glove winner and Batting Champ in the not too distant future. He is arguably the best position player that the Yankees have cultivated from their Farm System in the past 5 years.
He lacks plate discipline but he will learn. And once he becomes more selective at the Plate, he’ll be lights out. Remember, he’s still only 25 years old.
Hey, what do folks think about Peter’s suggestion that we might bench Melky for inter-league play?
Damon, Matsui and Giambi sure are hitting right now.
CB:
All true my friend. I am exhausted.
I have the luxury of being able to goof off this am, but now, it’s back to the saltmines.
murphy-you naughty dog!
This is what happens to fanatics. We’re all in one big room with padded walls.
I’d like to have C.C. But I want a low risk, high reward proposition.
I wouldn’t be opposed to having 5 really good RHP in the rotation though…
Doubt there are 8, but I can name about 25 who are playing closer to their upside than Cano is to his. He’s been awful. After a fair month of May, he’s back at it in June with a .268 OBP. ZERO walks in his last 63 plate appearances is inexcusable.
I know that, we know that, Robi has underperformed this season, there is no doubt about that. Absolutely, he sucks right now keyword (right now)….
Latham Joe,
I thought Cano had really improved his eye last season (being more selective) and that’s why he was so hot. But then again, the whole team has abandoned their patient approach at the plate this year. Maybe they’re holding out to get the ice cream and candy back.
“I’m not in favor of trading for CC – but for people who are mocking the HEFTY lefty, he has an excellent track record of innings pitched per season and has been very durable. He certainly wouldn’t be the first whale to exhibit a rubber arm (think Wells).”
CC has averaged just over 200 innings pitched during his career. So much for the “bag of cheetos”. I’m on the fence about giving up Cano for CC partly becasue Cano’s hitting talent is a luxury/rarity at his position and because of his age. 2nd Base traditionally is not a “power” position so for me it would be defense first (which Cano is adequate at) and of course making contact at the plate. CC has another solid 2-3 years of perfmance left on him whereas Cano is just entering his prime. Fact is that the Yanks will need another anchor at the top of the rotation for 2009 and beyond, and at the right price CC makes sense.
“not that i dont like robby as much as the next guy, but id hardly consider him a power hitter. can he hit HR’s? sure, but thats not his game.”
Cano had a slugging percentage of .488 last year. The year before he had a slugging percentage of .525.
Those are power hitting numbers, especially for a middle infielder. Power isn’t the central part of Cano’s game but its a huge plus. He drives the ball.
from Rosenthal:
“The Yankees are aggressively shopping right-hander LaTroy Hawkins, two rival executives say, intending to clear a spot for a reliever who currently is at Class AAA. Righty J.B. Cox, who missed all of last season after undergoing elbow-ligament transplant surgery, is one candidate; he began the season at Class A, but has since moved to AAA, where he has allowed one run in 12 1/3 innings. Righty David Robertson, who began the season at AA, also has been impressive at AAA. Hawkins, signed to a one-year, $3.75 million free-agent contract, has a 6.08 ERA in 22 appearances . . . ”
Story Link
sunny615, Cashman must be going strapped.
CB,
I’d actually put Placido Polanco second (based on last year) but he is on the downside of his career. Also you have to look at Ian Kinsler and Brandon Phillips. Both are very talented. None of them come close to Chase Utley though.
Why is it foolish? We project what Cano MAY be.
Perhaps he will win Gold Gloves and be a dynamic hitter on a more consistent basis.
Perhaps he won’t.
Sometimes, we get so attached to a player, we only project positives.
What if Robbie Cano isn’t a future Gold Glove player?
Clearly, he’s not going to be a career .227 (what he is hitting now) hitter.
However, what if he doesn’t become what those enamored with him think he will be?
It isn’t a sure thing he will be a superstar. Its just as probable he won’t.
There are plenty of good, talented scouts in the game who are SHOCKED he has had the success he has had in the game.
Its a tough call with Cano. He is far from a sure thing to stardom.
As they say, that’s why GM’s get paid the big bucks. To make the tough calls.
Its fun blog talk and its not nearly as out of bounds as some would believe.
An under 30 Cy Young winner, who is also LH, for a 25 year old second baseman with a lot of potential.
I bet if you polled 20 GM’s, they would be 50-50 on who would get the better of that deal. Its that close.
“It really comes down to the Yankees and Tigers”
Wow – I can’t imagine being in Dombrowski’s shoes going into the owner’s office with a proposal for another ‘can’t miss’ lefty starter.
Unless they are looking to continue to bolster the single A rotation
“I agree about the LH reliever being a higher priority, just yesterday the Padres DFA Wilfredo Ledezma”
On the radio broadcast last night Suzyn said that Mike Myers was in the ballpark and she spoke with him. He told her that the Padres called him to see if he wanted to come back. I guess it really is tough to get left handed relievers.
i still say no cc if he wants more than 5 years, and i think he will. if that’s what (and why wouldnt he?)he wants, all talks are off imo.
that being said, if the sox are in, we have to at least act like we are to push up the price. could be another deal like santana,w here both teams have to make bids they dont want accepted to keep the other team from getting a bargain.
power hitting 2nd basemen? anybody here ever heard of dan uggla?
If Hawkins is Cashman’s “big” mistake that’s terrific. People here think it’s Zito-esque. Hardly. It was low risk. A one year deal.
What’s the opinion on Okajima? I heard Law say something stupid last night, like his struggles are an abberation. Wasn’t the big surprise that he was an afterthought? That leads me to believe that he did not arrive in the states with the sparkling ERA he achieved in ‘07.
mel:
“This is what happens to fanatics. We’re all in one big room with padded walls.”
lol
Another question: what’s your crystal ball say about Cano’s career?
-one of the best ever (e.g., Carew)
-next-tier great (e.g., Randolph, 6 time all-star)
-top player, but enigmatic (e.g., Knoblauch, 4 time all-star)
-worse than that?
David
“The Yankees are aggressively shopping right-hander LaTroy Hawkins,
When you’re trying to deal crap, like LaTroy Hawkins, can you be anything but agressive???
Dan Uggla is a terrible second baseman. He’s one of the worst fielding second baseman in the league. The marlins are willing to ignore that and essentially play him there that’s fine. But many other teams would not even try to play him at a premium defensive position.
When you’re trying to deal crap, like LaTroy Hawkins, can you be anything but agressive???
the white van is at the corner
cb, im aware of his defensive inablility. i just saw people were discussing power hitting second basemen and his name hadnt come up. suprising b/c he has 18HR and 44RBI this year.
“I agree about the LH reliever being a higher priority, just yesterday the Padres DFA Wilfredo Ledezma”
Two of the Yankees best relievers are very good at shutting down lefthanded hitters. (Mo and Edwar)
I don’t think a lefthanded reliever is much of a concern right now.
Y’s guy,
No doubt with the bat he’s just fantastic. But quite honestly Uggla is so bad defensively that I think its hard to even compare him to guys like Utley or Cano who are true second basemen. Uggla is basically playing out of position, IMO. But he’s been one of the best hitter in baseball this year, no doubt.
There is a simple answer to the CC Sabathia decision
Would you trade Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero for CC Sabathia ? If your answer is no then why would it make sense to trade Robinson Cano ?
Law did say something interesting, though. He said that losing Alex was tough enough, but that there was a big stretch there when we were missing Alex and Jorge. He said Jorge was the key as there was zero production at the position when he was out (I disagreed there-I thought the backups did an admirable job and a lot of it was accentuated by the fact that only Matsui was hitting at the time).
So when we look at the record, chew on that a little. And then remember that Hughes & Kennedy didn’t work out. Andy and the Wanger have struggled, but not in the fashion of Zito or Willis. Joba is in flux. Jeter missed time. The schedule was grueling. Guys are trying to adjust to post-Torre life.
Of course, it could be better and there’s no excuses now. But all in all, they’ve survived the worst case scenario relatively intact.
I have to say I feel exonerrated after SJ44’s 10:41 post.
Thanks SJ. I thought Murph and I were back-up-against the wall, taking on all comers in the bar!
Cano and Horne for CC and a 2B would be a tough trade to pass up… IMHO.
cb, i had to throw uggla in there because he’s been keeping my fantasy team afloat this year.
Cano is hitting well below his PECOTA 10th percentile forecast. That means PECOTA gave him less than a 10% chance of being as bad as he currently is for the whole season.
I think he’ll turn it around.
Interestingly, this is part of the BP blurb on Cano’s 2007: “Early in the season, Cano earned plaudits for his improved defense, but his bat was a disappointment–through May, he had hit just two home runs. He continued to be among the game`s most impatient hitters, inevitably swinging at the first pitch and sometimes a fluttering hot dog wrapper or passing pigeon.”
“Cano and Horne for CC and a 2B would be a tough trade to pass up… IMHO.”
I think it’s way too much, but that’s me.
Why trade Cano and Horne when you can give up less? Cano by himself would be more than enough (I don’t see any other team in the majors matching an offer of Cano).
It’s like, why offer a guy $10M, if he’s worth $15M, but no one else is willing to offer more than $5M?
“Would you trade Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero for CC Sabathia ?”
Yes… In the right deal.
Sheeesh. Some of you guys and this farm-only mentality.
Not every prospect pans out, fyi.
Not to be disrespectful, or to be labeled a troll, but you have to look at this seriously. The 96-01 Dynasty was built with a blend of farm and free agent/trade acquisitions.
“There is a simple answer to the CC Sabathia decision
Would you trade Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero for CC Sabathia ? If your answer is no then why would it make sense to trade Robinson Cano ?”
AJ yes, Montero no, Cano no.
V,
Can’t believe that you’d trade Jackson. I hear that he’s quite the athlete. I’d trade him for Victorino, though!
dremers.. Sabathia is going to be a FA.. He will not negotiate a extension with the Yanks if they traded for him.. You guys are dreaming.
Sj, WOW do I disagree with you on this one..Sabathia would be a rental and rentals only make sense if you are on the cusp of winning it all as is the yanks are not.
Boston for them it would be a good idea, but they will not mortgage the future for a rental neither should any other team.
trade Hawkins, bring up 1 of the stud young guys(cox or Melancon) DFA Moeller and give gardner a peek off the bench etc. let’s take 1 step at a time….
“What’s the opinion on Okajima? I heard Law say something stupid last night, like his struggles are an abberation.”
Only abberation I see is that all but one of his earned runs (8 of 9) and half of the inherited runners he allowed to score came against the Orioles. He’s allowed 12 baserunners in 5 1/3 against them while allowing 1 ER and 15 baserunners in 22 2/3 against everyone else.
That’s kinda weird.
Brandon,
I disagree. That’s not the issue.
You are saying that centerfield and catcher are less important positions than second base.
I don’t believe that to be the case.
If the Yankees had a starting rotation for the rest of the season of Wang, CC, Joba, Moose and Pettitte, minus Cano, are they better or worse off right now? I think they are better team.
For 2009, if the rotation is Wang, CC, Joba, Hughes and Rasner (or somebody else), is it a better pitching staff that right now? Of course it is.
They can still get offense from the remaining spots in the lineup.
For the future? I’m not one who believes you need big offense out of your second baseman if you have it at other positions.
In fact, give me a second baseman who can make all the plays, handle the bat, and has speed, and I’ll find offense in other places in the lineup.
There aren’t a lot of places to find Cy Young winners who are under 30. Provided of course, they are healthy.
What gets lost in the Santana talk was, he treaded downward, both in production and velocity, the second half of the season.
That’s a big reason why both the Yankees and Red Sox passed on him.
So far this season, he’s still trending downward on the velocity front.
We haven’t see that from CC so far this year. That’s a key distinction.
Call me crazy but, I don’t see how Robinson Cano is an untradeable commodity.
Even if he was hitting .300, if I was a GM, and CC Sabathia could be had for Cano, I’d at least have to think about it.
No way I would dismiss it out of hand.
The 96-01 Dynasty was built with a blend of farm and free agent/trade acquisitions.
But your missing the point the problem is not the SP, right now it’s the offense. They are averaging less runs than ever right now. This is what we’re trying to say, RISP is the problem SP is not really the big problem.
““Would you trade Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero for CC Sabathia ?â€
Yes… In the right deal.
Sheeesh. Some of you guys and this farm-only mentality.
Not every prospect pans out, fyi.
Not to be disrespectful, or to be labeled a troll, but you have to look at this seriously. The 96-01 Dynasty was built with a blend of farm and free agent/trade acquisitions.”
Yes, it was. But it wasn’t built with Jeter for an ‘ace’ that may or may not continue his present production type deals.
Fredo-
Thanks for that. I just know that once upon a time Oka was unhittable. I still relish the moment that Jeter became the founding member of the Oka-not-Okay club.
Stuart,
He wouldn’t be a rental. The Yankees would never do that deal unless they locked him up long term.
Even if they weren’t granted a 72 hour windown to negotiate, believe me, they would know whether or not they could sign him prior to doing that kind of deal.
Backchannel work has a magical way of getting information back to the right people.
There is no way in the world the Yankees would do a CC-Cano deal if there was even a 1% chance he could walk after the season.
“V,
Can’t believe that you’d trade Jackson. I hear that he’s quite the athlete. I’d trade him for Victorino, though!”
AJ straight up for CC, yes, I’d do that. Add in too many other pieces (Horne, etc.) and I’d shy away.
But I don’t think anyone comes close to offering a package that beats Cano, straight up. If you absolutely want to give the guy 7 years, $150M, he can be had for less than Cano.
All this talk about the Dynasty years, do people realize the Yankees SP staff was not the best the AL or ML, they won because they could hit w/ RISP and close out games. The SP staff if you check the ERA to those players was not overly impressive. Right now the Yankees need to keep thier young offensive position players, because everyone in this lineup is going to end up in thier mid 30’s soon.
How many years at top level does Jetes have left ?, Posada ?, Matsui ? Abreu ? …this is the classic bad reaction move. Robinson Cano like him or not is a top talent that is struggling right now again (right now)
SJ44, have you seen Brett Gardner play? How do his
(i) arm and (ii) range compare to Melky’s?
And how would you weigh his plate discipline and power vs. Melky’s?
The biggest issue in trading for CC isn’t what you give up – it’s what you are willing to pay and for how long.
That’s the primary decision – what kind of commitment are you willing to make. That’s the central decision.
CC is going to demand at least 6 years $130 million to sign after a trade. Its going to take those kinds of numbers, at least, for him to forego the opportunity to pass up free agency when he’s only a few months away.
Trading for CC you are going to sign him on his terms. Those terms won’t be pretty.
IMO, CC is not worth the long term risk. That’s how I approach trade scenario’s for CC. At his best he’s a very good pitcher but not a great one. This year he’s been very inconsistent and not nearly as good as last year.
IMO he’s not a $22M pitcher never mind for 6 or 7 years.
The team is just emerging from this endless array of bad long term contracts. To turn around and immediately sign a pitcher to another longer term deal is an enormous risk.
SJ I have to disagree with you here. In my opinion, Cano is untouchable in trade talks. He is our best young position player (despite his bad start this year). The Yanks have some good outfielders that are fairly close to the majors but other than that most of their position depth is in low A. You can’t trade away a talent like Cano for any pitcher.
I was shocked when Soriano was traded & that has worked out really well for the Yanks. Moving Cano would be just as shocking, but the return will most likely be worth it.
FWIW-
Nick in SF is hysterical, but mel is the Queen of LOL.
“How many years at top level does Jetes have left ?, Posada ?, Matsui ? Abreu ?”
wouldnt that actually support a move like bringing in CC, though? your top players only have a couple years left in the tank, dont you want to give yourself the best opportunity to win in those couple years?
wouldnt that actually support a move like bringing in CC, though? your top players only have a couple years left in the tank, dont you want to give yourself the best opportunity to win in those couple years?
you’d like to hamstring the future for a non sure thing, then by all means, but if it is about staying competitive next season and beyond put it this way I wouldn’t do it.
Adding to what Patrick is saying, they have one of the top second basemen locked up for years on favorable terms.
If they were going to move him, they would’ve done it when he was more valuable as a chip. When he was cheap. And hitting.
C.C. is a world-class pitcher, but in general pitching is more abundant than good position players.
Everyone who wants to trade Cano is an idiot.
If I recall the whole reason the Yankees declined to pursue Santana was that the deal demanded BOTH (i) the sacrifice of multiple, young, inexpensive players (each of whom the Yankees controlled for 6 seasons or more before they reached free-agency) and (ii) a large, 100 million+, multi-year contract.
Why would that logic change for Sabathia.
Now, if Sabbathia is a free-agent, corrollary one isn’t applicable. In that circumstance, I could envision the Yankees pursuing him. Otherwise, not.
But who knows, if the Epstein scares Hank with the prospect of the Red Sox acquiring Sabbathia and Hank still suffers from remorse over Santana, who knows?
Buddy,
HaHa.
Things have gotten so serious here, so we can’t cut up like the good ol’ days. Maybe in the off-season.
I still remember that Rebecca, Jennifer, and I REALLY thought you were THE Buddy Biancala.
Good times.
Everyone who wants to trade Cano is an idiot.
chill out dude, I understand the frustration, heck it pissed me off this morning. I’ll say right now Robi has gotten under thier skin w/ his first and 2nd pitch swinging. And that’s ok they just need to think it out a bit clearer.
I’ve read this whole thread and after much thought, I would make the move. Cano is still a question mark, while CC is not, and I love Robbie. He has been a good player for the Yankees, but if the right deal presents itself, like for Sabathia, you almost have to jump on it.
And like SJ said, the comparisons to Rod Carew have to stop. Cano is a good hitter, but his lack of plate discipline makes him an easy out if the pitcher knows what he is doing.
Or…ANYONE who wants to trade Cano is an idiot. (As am I, apparently.)
CC is not a question mark? He has a serious case of David Wells syndrome. The man is going to eat himself out the league.
“The team is just emerging from this endless array of bad long term contracts.”
Still some on there that will be regrettable at some point down the road and to fill some position voids (1B, RF) will likely require a couple more since the answers aren’t in the system right now. Abreu doesn’t have the organization by the short ones like Posada did, but if the Yanks want to keep him, it’ll be 3 years minimum. Teixeira is a 7 year deal waiting to happen someplace.
As usual, SJ44 made some valid points and observations. He also had a little tidbit about how close to being demoted Cano was. Do we just accept that Cano doesn’t know the meaning of the English word Focus? At least he doesn’t slide head first.
How’s Austin Jackson on the basepaths?
“you’d like to hamstring the future for a non sure thing… but if it is about staying competitive next season and beyond”
how would it compromise the Yankees ability to remain competitive for next year, let alone beyond?
and as for pitchers, seems to me that Sabathia is about as close to a definate thing as you can get that would be available… just my opinion, though.
“C.C. is a world-class pitcher, but in general pitching is more abundant than good position players.”
pitching is more abundant, yes. but you just labeled CC world-class, which is not.
CC won’t get Santana money. He won’t have the big market teams bidding against themselves, as Santana did, during the process.
That will affect his deal.
It won’t be a NY, Bos, NY battle. That drove the Santana talks and made him a lot of money. If CC wants to play in NY (a big unknown, BTW), he would be amenable to an in season deal.
Patrick,
Aside from Chase Utley, there isn’t an untouchable second baseman in baseball. Robinson Cano included.
Even a guy like Brandon Phillips was moved a few times before he found a home.
Its not a position, especially in the AL because of the DH (which are power/offense sources for most teams), where second baseman are untouchable.
The Red Sox won two World Series with Mark Bellhorn and Dustin Pedroia as their second baseman. Neither guy is as talented as Cano.
Its about looking at the overall team and deciding how guys fit in the big and small picture.
Is Cano a good player? Yes. A great player? No.
There are few untouchable players without no trade clauses in baseball. I don’t think many baseball people think Cano is one of them.
KS,
I’ve seen Gardner play a lot. Not as good an arm as Cabrera. Good CF, although I don’t he’s better defensively than Melky.
I actually like him better as a LF. He seems to get better jumps on the ball when he plays LF.
He’s really fast and is a guy I think can be a very good ML player.
I wish the bench was configured differently so he could get PT in NY. He can play.
He just has to play a lot to be effective. He’s too good a player just to use occasionally or as a pinch runner at the big league level, IMO.
If you stagger the long-term expensive contracts then it’s fine. You just cannot be saddled with so many at one time. And we still have Alex and Jeter. And primo pitching is getting more expensive (I’d like to see more money, less years)
Now’s the time to get fiscally responsible because you can.
“And that’s ok they just need to think it out a bit clearer.”
You’re acting like Cano is a sure thing to get back to his .300+ days.
That is far from a sure thing. Also, the projections of his super-stardom assume developing more power and/or plate discipline. That’s also not a sure thing. His plate approach is horrible right now. Anyone who throws him anything near the plate is stupid, and pitchers know that. No one’s throwing him hittable pitches and he’s getting himself out. And he’s not correcting himself. That’s a BIG problem. He basically only hits mistakes.
There are reasons to think that he won’t pull out of this. There are also reasons to think that he will. To assert that anyone who believes the former over the latter “isn’t thinking clearly” is kind of dumb.
Yes, I know that he’s our only young position player with real upside. But, if one doesn’t think he’s going to show that upside…then you trade high.
It would terrible if CC had “David Wells Syndrome”.
How awful would it be to have a LH pitcher win over 200 games, pitch for over 15 years, win 3 rings, have 12 post-season wins, and win a Cy Young or two (something Wells never did, BTW), in his career.
That would be an awful career, wouldn’t it? That’s David Wells’ career.
I bet CC would sign on to have that career right now.
Lots of guys look like Tarzan and pitch like Jane. No offense ladies of the blog.
Its not about how pitchers look. Its about how they pitch.
CC Sabathia is one helluva pitcher.
KS,
What changes in a year? Phil Hughes.
They have to get innings from somewhere this year and next year. With Phil being out until August, at the earliest, it changes plans for the Yankees.
Who eats innings next year beside Wang? Pettitte isn’t the answer. Nor is Moose. Joba will probably get to 180 innings next year. They need at least one, perhaps two starters next year who can eat innings.
This is another lost year for Hughes. That’s not what was on the planning board for 2008.
CC can eat innings as well as pitch effectively.
I would think that’s going to go into the equation as they decide whether or not to make a move for him in season or in the off-season.
whozat so your in favor of trading Robinson Cano + pieces for CC Sabathia ? Yes or No.
“Aside from Chase Utley, there isn’t an untouchable second baseman in baseball. Robinson Cano included.”
I disagree. Brandon Phillips has been traded but his first good season was last year. Cano had his first really good season in 2006 and he hasn’t been moved since then. I’d say both guys are untouchable for their respective teams.
“Is Cano a good player? Yes. A great player? No. ”
Again I disagree, Cano IS a great player. In 2006 he had a .890 OPS, in 2007 his OPS was .841. That is ridiculous for a second baseman. Offensively Cano is top 3 in all of major league baseball, defensively he is in the top 5 or 6. Cano isn’t even in his prime and he’s already one of the best at his position in the entire league.
I just want to say that Chase Utley wasn’t Chase Utley until he was 26 years old.
Chase Utley was a worse hitter than Robinson Cano when he came into the league. Chase Utley didn’t even play 100 games in the big leagues until he was 26.
That’s how far ahead of the curve that Robinson Cano is.
Now, I have no idea how good Robinson Cano will become but he was already an accomplished good hitter in the majors at the same age that Utley was in the minors.
“CC can eat innings…”
“Do we just accept that Cano doesn’t know the meaning of the English word Focus?”
YIKES!
Robbie is young and inconsistent – but he hit .295 in May and is hitting .290 for the last 365 days. Some players are streakier than others, but i am comfortable in coping with a highly talented 2B that is a ‘dow joneser’ when he is entering his prime years and is very affordable.
All this junk about him going out and partying is just bs imho – do you think Jeter stays in every night reading War and Peace? Not Likely.
If you have every other infielder making over $18M can’t we settle for one guy who is actually being paid a reasonable amount?
I’m not saying Cano is some slug.
We are talking about dealing him for the reigning Cy Young Winner. Not some over the hill guy.
His previous numbers are precisely the reason why you could even consider such a thing.
The toughest question, and one none of us have the answer to is, will he get better? I don’t know.
Not every player has an upward trajectory. Some level out. I don’t know where Cano stands right now.
Its one thing to assume he will get better but, that’s not been the case this year.
He still shows no plate discipline whatsoever. He’s not a power hitter, he’s not fast and he doesn’t handle the bat well.
Sorry but, he’s not a great player. A very good player? Yes. Great player? No.
If he could get the Yankees CC Sabathia, like Soriano, that may be his greatest contribution to the Yankees over the long haul.
I’m not saying the Yankees need to jump at something like this. All I am saying is, Robinson Cano is not so good a player that (if available) you pass on CC Sabathia to keep.
If he is, he better hit .375 the rest of the year to justify passing on a guy who would be the ace of this rotation.
Aces vs. second baseman? I don’t see how a second baseman is more valuable.
Especially a guy who is trending downward in his production numbers since 2006.
SJ –
I’m a little surprised that you like Brett in LF rather than in CF. – - – Don’t you typically look for more power in a corner outfielder. BG has not shown HR power although i guess you can look at him in exactly the same kind of offensive role that Damon fills now as a table setter rather than a thumper.
Especially if we don’t extend Bobby Abreu we are going to need some power in the corner outfielders imho.
Is all the Cano talk today part of the plan that if you trash players here they perform better on the field? Seems to have worked with Giambi and Damon. Melky got trashed here yesterday and even his outs last night were hit hard.
As long as Cano doesn’t take his offensive issues out onto the field with him, you run him out there everynight and let him work at finding his stroke.
TK,
I’m not picking on Robbie. I want him to stay. But focus is not a strong suit for him. Or maybe it’s more accurate to say he’s laid back. Speaking from experience, most people who grow up on an island are. No big deal.
And Jeter’s a perfect example of how you can “have fun” and keep your focus. War and Peace? Every night he has a different girl read him one page. He’s about 3/4 of the way through. When he gets to the end, he’s going to settle down and get married. Book it.
TK,
He’s a tablesetter. The Yankees can get power from other sources. DH, 3B, C, 1B.
With the way the game is trending, its going back to being more about contact hitting, speed, and putting the ball in play and less about sheer power.
Just based on the 10 times I’ve seen Gardner play (4 in LF, 6 in CF), he looks better in left than in center to me.
Clearly, its a small sample size. He can play both positions effectively. Just think he plays left better than center based on my observations on how he tracks balls in the OF.
I don’t understand trading Cano for Sabathia.
We held onto Kennedy and Melky for Santana. I know, I know, the money. But Sabathia will cost us the big bucks too.
Santana > CC (debatable)
Cano > Melky + Kennedy
Talking about trading Cano for the reigning Cy Young winner isn’t “trashing” him. Its just a discussion as to an interesting proposal raised by Murph in the thread.
“Is all the Cano talk today part of the plan that if you trash players here they perform better on the field?”
In that case – JFK sucks.
Russell,
What’s changed is Hughes. With him being out for most of the season, the Yankees can’t get the innings out of him in 2009 to warrant being in the rotation all year.
Hughes may only be able to pitch 120 innings next year.
Also, with Pettitte’s struggles, there is no assurance he has another year in him.
Couple that with Cano’s struggles and things have changed from last off-season to now.
Doesn’t mean you do a deal. Just means that circumstances have changed enough to consider it.
“He’s not a power hitter”
He’s not? Would you consider Brandon Phillips a power hitter (he hit 30 HR and 94 RBI last season)? Well Robbie had a higher SLG than Phillips did in 2007. Cano is a power hitter and he is projected by many to hit more HR in the future.
“Sorry but, he’s not a great player. A very good player? Yes. Great player? No.”
Cano is the second or third best second baseman in both leagues. How does that not constitute greatness? Look at the top 3 players in each position, all of them would be great. Cano is in that group and hes only going to get better.
“We held onto Kennedy and Melky for Santana. I know, I know, the money. ”
No, we held onto Melky, WANG and Kennedy for Santana. We also held onto HUGHES and Melky for Santana.
“Hughes may only be able to pitch 120 innings next year.”
Does it really drop like that? He’s already pitched that many innings in one season. I know his total this year will likely drop (though they could send him to winter ball), but I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t be in the same 150 inning boat as Joba is this year.
We held onto Kennedy and Melky for Santana. I know, I know, the money. But Sabathia will cost us the big bucks too.
That was never the deal.
“…. Utley’s on his own level. But then Cano is second.”
The best joke of the day, with the second part of that statement serving as the punch line. Yanks would trade two Canos for one Polanco.
If he’s only going to get better, how come his production numbers have fallen since 2006? His numbers were down last year and have fallen off the map so far this year.
He’s not getting better. Perhaps he will.
I don’t think that’s a guarantee based on what we are seeing from him this year. Nor based on what we saw from him last year.
I guess my point is, it depends on how you want to interpret his numbers. His production fell last year and has fallen dramatically this year.
Some could argue, based on what he did in 2006, he will trend upward again. Others can argue that his trending downward is something that has been happening over a longer period.
I think reasonable minds can differ on his greatness because the numbers, and his play, show a troubling downward trend.
“Cano is in that group and hes only going to get better.”
You take this as fact. Others don’t.
3 things i got from reading some stuff yesterday in here.
1. El Duque is the best pitcher ever
2. Melky needs to be sent down to A ball for sliding head first to first.
3. Nick in sf got caught trying to sell viagra on this blog by the blog police.
Hope today is as entertaining.
Where did you guys here about the Cano rumors? Or is it something someone came up with on this blog today?
We didn’t hold onto Melky and Kennedy for Santana, we would have done that deal if the Twins agreed to it.
Well, El Duque was awesome…
SJ: What’s the biggest contract that you’d give Sabathia right now? And how much do you think he can fetch?
I’d personally stop at about Zambrano money (~5 years, 18-19 mil per year)…not sure how much he could fetch though.
LMAO at Mel –
The way you describe – Jeter might need to switch to a longer book! What the heck did Wilt the Stilt read – the OED?
SJ44 – it sucks because you know in hindsight if they knew all this would happen they would have jumped aboard the Santana train.
Guess you can’t be too upset though – Santana is 5-5 and is serving up homeruns. Sabathia has been a bit shaky but could be just as dominant as Santana.
Tex is looking less and less likely =/
Wonder what the Yanks do to solve their 1B issues the following seasons. Giambi is risky.
In not sold on C.C. for 6 or 7 years. How about giving less to get a pitcher like Roy Oswalt?
The problem with Cano is that he swings at everything, pitchers know it. He never gets anything in the strike zone and when he does he crushes it.
“he best joke of the day, with the second part of that statement serving as the punch line. Yanks would trade two Canos for one Polanco.”
No. Polanco had a better season than Cano last year but he’s on the downside of his career at this point.
“You take this as fact. Others don’t.”
True. However even if Cano doesn’t get any better he is still a top three 2B in the league. Obviously not for the first two months of this season. All of my arguments are based on 2006 and 2007 Cano. I expect him to get back to hitting like that and if he does he will be one of the best 2B in MLB.
Oswalt’s having a bad year (his 7 IP/1 ER game last night was the second time this season that he has given up less than 3 runs); he also turns 31 this year.
For that matter, he’s also under contract for another 3 years, with a club option for 2012.
Why would it take less to get Oswalt? And why would the Astros deal him? He’s under control of a great contract for the next few years. If the Astros want to compete at all, and I believe they do in the weak NL Central, why deal their ace?
(bad relative to what Oswalt normally delivers…and his era+ right now is in the low 80’s)
hey russell, i’m curious…why is getting tex less likely?
“How about giving less to get a pitcher like Roy Oswalt?”
Not going to happen. He’s a got a pretty “team friendly” contract (signed thru ‘11 with an option for ‘12). He might actually cost more than Sabathia because he’s locked in at $15M per for the next 3-4 years.
Very interesting article today in the Detroit News by Lynn Henning about the mess the tigers are in. The story mostly actually concentrates on the mess the team has gotten itself into by signing older position players to long terms contracts. Don’t think he had enough room to discuss the pitching problems in depth.
Particularly interesting is the change in philosophy the tigers underwent after they made the post season in 2006 and went into a win-now mentality.
What a mess that team is in. Dombrowski is considered to be one of the best GM’s in all of baseball but almost nothing has worked out for them this year.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb.....004/SPORTS
As hard as it may be, I’m still thinking about prying Jon Garland from the west coast this coming offseason. It’s not like he’ll command a mega contract…
This is from last year, but I guess you can see why Joe banned sweets from the clubhouse.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....ndy-store/
“All of my arguments are based on 2006 and 2007 Cano. I expect him to get back to hitting like that and if he does he will be one of the best 2B in MLB.”
And this is the crux of the argument. Now that the league has adjusted to him, can he adjust back? This season, he’s not showing that he can. At all.
In my opinion, both he and Melky have shown they have some serious maturing to do as ballplayers. And I don’t know who’s going to make them do it.
O.k. guys plan b. How about in the trade deadline we look at Sheets? Assuming he’s healthy at the time. Its his final year of the contract and im sure that wouldnt cost us an all star. I repeat. Assuming he’s healthy.
For some reason this blog doesn’t like me ;(
I can’t post the link to this story. It is from last year, read it and you’ll see why Joe banned candy.
type this in, in google it should be the first page listed.
Like Kids in a Candy Store yankees
“3 things i got from reading some stuff yesterday in here.
1. El Duque is the best pitcher ever
2. Melky needs to be sent down to A ball for sliding head first to first.
3. Nick in sf got caught trying to sell viagra on this blog by the blog police.
Hope today is as entertaining.
Where did you guys here about the Cano rumors? Or is it something someone came up with on this blog today?”
Don’t forget:
4. Beckett..along with his sole patch…is the greatest pitcher ever and all Yankees fans are in denial about it
Man, you’d think these guys were 30 yr old veterans by the expectations you guys heap on ‘em.
Cano is 25. Melky is 23.
Let ‘em develop.
Can we also call the Mets and see if they would like to take some of our junk in Farns and Hawkins? Its not like their bullpen is any better. At least we can get something for them before they get “Quantrill”.
OK, why would the Yankees trade for CC Sabathia when he is a Free Agent after this season? It always comes back to squandering the future in a trade. Why can’t the Yankees have Cano AND CC if they really want him badly enough?
This expectation for the Yankees to win every year is just absurd sometimes. Peter pointed it out earlier in the season…this is the step back year for two steps forward next year. If we make the playoffs, which we very well could, that is great and what I hope for (not to mention the WS). But it makes zero sense to trade young guys away in an attempt to force this. Especially when the return player is going to command upwards of $18 million/year after this season. Illogical.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I was at the game yesterday. I had the best seats i’ve ever had, four rows behind the A’s dugout. I would like to state for the record that Dana Eveland is really funny, although Pete’s terms of service prevents me from typing any of it.
A few observations:
1. Wang throws that sinker a lot better with runners on base, does the windup affect his arm angle?
2. ARod made a fantastic play at 3rd yesterday. I think we all forget just how good he is defensively, he did end Omar’s reign of SS gold gloves.
3. Veras is a big boy with a very live arm. But he tips his pitches, his fastball motion is completely different than his breaking stuff. They gotta get that ironed out. A good hitter like Chavez knew what was coming.
4. About Robinson Cano: I just don’t think he’s lazy. He was always running hard and in the right spot. He has a ‘laid-back’ look to him, next to Jeter and Arod. I think the guy needs to ask himself just how good he wants to be. Arod talked to him after every at bat. He didn’t seem to be listening.
5. Betemit is not a good first baseman.
6. Aces is a great bar here in SF. As far as burritos, a fantastic place is El Farolitos. It’s down the street from the famed La Taquirra.
Sorry about the longs post. I live in SF and don’t get to see the Yankees live but once a year, and rarely on tv. Last night was a lot of fun.
TK,
The longest book is The Book (Bible)!
S.o.S,
Don’t know if anyone gave you the answer, but we’re just having fun with something murphydog threw out this morning.
“4. Beckett..along with his sole patch…is the greatest pitcher ever and all Yankees fans are in denial about it.”
Thats where number 1 comes to play. The reasoning was just purely on playoff stats makes someone the best ever. So we came back with the duke himself. Owned. Yankees win again.
What makes any of you think that the Yankees won’t have to pay a high price in prospects to bring any of these stud pitchers into the fold via trade? Where is the sense in that? It completely goes against what Cashman is attempting to do right now. Otherwise, why not have just traded for Santana back in December?
Sheets, Sabathia..whose next? Do any of you really think they are going to come cheap? Heck, Billy Beane wants a king’s ransom for Joe Blanton. Is Joe Blanton anywhere near as good as either of those guys? NO.
“As hard as it may be, I’m still thinking about prying Jon Garland from the west coast this coming offseason. It’s not like he’ll command a mega contract…”
Probably take more than you might imagine. Guy has averaged over 200 IP the last 6 years and is on his way to doing it again. Not a mega-deal, but you’re probably looking at 5 yrs and $75M.
IMO the Yankees would be foolish to trade Cano for CC. I agree that Cano should not be a untouchable, but this isn’t the right deal. For one, who else would be willing to trade that much for CC. Boston, no. Dodgers, doubtful. Detroit, don’t have the players. Second, if the Yankees are going to start trading, they should do so from depth, ie minor league pitching. Even guys like AJax or Tabata who haven’t proven that they can get it done at the major league level yet. I’m suspect of trading one of the few young players they have developed that has a track record.
I got you Jenn.
Holy Shhhhh …
no mass
Thanks mel. I think the blog accidently had the ignore button on me.
Now that yesterday has passed. Can someone tell me why there was a Peter stalker in here? Whats the story on that?
Brandon,
Thanks. Assignment for the day: Fave 3 from the “list”.
1. Chips
2. Pizza
3. Reese’s
mel –
I think Leviticus (sp?) might ruin the mood – but the Songs of Solomon? Money!
“Arod talked to him after every at bat. He didn’t seem to be listening.”
Very disturbing.
Holy mother of crap..
That’s a lot of junk food
I wonder what the Yankees dental plan was like….
I’ve had my reservations about CC for a long time.
But if you tell me right now, we can get him for Cano? I do it in a heartbeat.
I don’t like Cano as a player. This past weekend my wife’s co-worker had her birthday party at a Dominican club in Harlem. Cano and Melky showed up and were drinking and partying to all hours of the morning.
If anyone didn’t notice, we had 4 1pm starts this weekend.
As a fan, I understand these guys need to have fun and let off steam, but trolling around a club in Harlen at 3, 4 am when you have a 1pm start the next day is immature and wrong.
One of them have to go. Cano or Melky because this little Batman and Robin thing they are doing is stunting their development.
I would trade Cano in a heartbeat for a top of the rotation starter. Not a rental though. You’d have to lock CC up.
Without negotiating the extension, you don’t trade Cano.
If you get to him to agree to the extension, pack your bags Robinson.
I don’t think you need to trade Horne and anyone else though.
If the Indians are getting Cano for CC, that’s all they get.
If we want Barfield or Asdrubal Cabrera then we have to offer an equal piece back to them.
But I would trade Cano for CC.
We saw last night what dominant strong starting pitching does for this team. You win the game by scoring 3 runs.
Cano is going to be a problem for as long as he’s here. He will keep getting off to these slow starts because his heart is not in the game.
He’s as talented as anyone, but I think his priorities are money, lifestyle and baseball as a distant 3rd.
And if Melky turns into a poor thing because his buddy went to Cleveland, then we go to the minors and find someone to replace him.
I’m not giving up on them. Getting a top of the rotation starter for Cano is not giving up on him.
But is 7-8 innings of strong starting pitching every 5th day worth more than an immature 2b who in his FOURTH season in the bigs still is having trouble learning to hit?
I take the starting pitcher 10 out 10 times in that scenario.
And I use 2b to go find a hard nosed gamer who hasn’t won a ring and desperately wants to. A guy who loves baseball enough to go home and get some sleep when you have a day game the next day and you’re hitting .220
Fredo: That…doesn’t surprise me too much now, when I take into account how fast starters’ contracts have been growing the past few years :/
“Guy has averaged over 200 IP the last 6 years and is on his way to doing it again. Not a mega-deal, but you’re probably looking at 5 yrs and $75M.”
Is that what slightly above average pitching gets you nowadays?
If only my parents had forced me to pitch as a youngin….
I think the Yankees would be well served to deal Cano for CC if they lock CC up to a new deal. Cano has way too many mental lapses for my taste. It appears that Cashman’s move to sign him up “cheap” in out years has back-fired. I know it’s early in the season, but when you see his play and hear about his partying, napping in the dugout, and fall off in his workout routine, you have to wonder if they mis-read him. If you can get an ace for a guy that “may” be a star 2B with a questionable work ethic I think you take it.
Thanks Brandon! Isn’t that crazy!! Maybe when people read that they’ll get why Joe banned it!
“Here’s the list: Kit Kat, Butterfinger, Peanut M&M’s, Caramello, Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups, 3 Musketeers, Snickers, Twix, Twizzlers, Utz Cheese Balls, Jolt Energy Gum, 6 plastic jugs containing various Skittles-type candy, Slim Jims, Pringles, Lay’s Potato Chips, Cheetos, pretzels, hot dogs and pizza.”
Slim Jim just sticks out like a sore thumb. It must have been a request from a veteran. Im guessing Clemens or Pettite.
Hot dogs, then Slim Jims, then Pringles for me
fyi that article is from April of last year.
“Here’s the list: Kit Kat, Butterfinger, Peanut M&M’s, Caramello, Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups, 3 Musketeers, Snickers, Twix, Twizzlers, Utz Cheese Balls, Jolt Energy Gum, 6 plastic jugs containing various Skittles-type candy, Slim Jims, Pringles, Lay’s Potato Chips, Cheetos, pretzels, hot dogs and pizza.
Then there’s a table beside the door to the clubhouse. There, you will find: Twinkees, 2 other kinds of Hostess snack cakes, Grandma’s cookies, peanut butter crackers, Quaker Chewy granola bars, Nutter Butters, microwave popcorn, Famous Amos chocolate-chip cookies, Cracker Jacks and all varieties of breakfast muffins.”
And here we thought they were getting bigger from HGH.
Off Topic Observation: Sean Marcum MUST be on the AL all-star team.
Easily the best pitcher in the AL East so far this season and probably the best in the entire league.
SoS,
Weird. The stalker posted the same time as you.
Some guy or gal posts under 10 names or so asking why Pete’s posting at that site under an anonymous name.
Pete links to that site and cites their stuff sometimes. I don’t see the big deal, but those guys have a real problem with Pete. Funny, though, you can’t type the actual name of the site. It gets stuck in the filter. Total violation of freedom of speech, Pete. Not cool at all.
G. Love, the partying rumors aside, i agree with the rest of that 100%.
Thanks Brandon! Isn’t that crazy!! Maybe when people read that they’ll get why Joe banned it!
Reading that makes me wonder what the hell is pizza and hots dogs and Cheetos doing in a clubhouse ? This is MLB they are paid to stay fit and durable during the baseball season, I can’t believe Joe and whoever else it was allowed that crap in the clubhouse.
“One of them have to go. Cano or Melky because this little Batman and Robin thing they are doing is stunting their development.”
I hate to say it but i agree with that statement. Cano would land us a bigger fish obviously.
Hot damn, Shaun Marcum’s WHIP is under 1.
Don’t know why I thought G. Love was a female…Sorry, about that.
No to Asdrubal. He’s a good player, but can you imagine Kay saying his name 5x per broadcast? “Ass-drooble” Nails on the chalkboard!
Mel,
No apologies necessary. I’m a lesbian.
Mwah!
I’ll never understand why people are so concerned about Cano’s and Melky’s partying habits.
I’d be more concerned if they weren’t enjoying life outside of the ballparks.
They are 23 and 25, that’s what young people do. I know people who party until 4AM come to work at 7AM and make million dollar deals regularly.
Jeter/Arod/Giambi/Damon etc. are all known as being party goers.
Hey, I have no problem with people wanting to trade Cano. But to harp on his partying I think it’s a bit much.
They had 1PM games which ended by 5PM. He could have went home and slept from 6PM to 12AM and then went out to party for all I know and care.
mel,
I noticed that. I promise im not Bruce Wayne and batman at the same time. Whats the big deal is he’s on the site? Its not like their giving scouting reports on red sox players. So Pete can go back and give them an advantage. There must be more to it. Oh well. All i know is Pete doesnt need to go anywhere else. When his blog is by far the pinnacle of all.
Asdrubal Caberera has been worse than Cano this year. He’s hitting .184 with a .529 OPS.
Nice write-up by Sweeney of the FAN on whether this is the time for a turning point.
http://www.wfan.com/Sweeny-Say.....ntRating=1
Assignment for the day: Fave 3 from the “listâ€.
1. Pizza
2. Pizza
3. Pizza
with extra sauce of course…
G. Love,
I knew I caught the female thing during the strike.
Carry on.
Blargh,
Who’s supposed to be better, McGowan or Marcum and which one did the Giants trade for Shea Hillebrand?
CB do you think if offered, hypothetically can Hideki Matsui land a package of Jonathan Sanchez and Merkin Valdez ?
G. Love,
That is definitely well thought out and I am on board with it in theory. The only catch for me, I guess, is the largue chunk of change that C.C. is going to require in any extension.
The more we all talk about Cano, the more I hear about his late night antics with Melky. I’m not sure what is legit, what is hearsay, etc. I’ve heard others that are disturbing, but I’m not sure I have the right to judge these guys based on their nightlife. I want them to succeed because that will help the team succeed.
In theory, the Yankees can always bring in the necessary firepower on offense via Free Agency. So I guess cutting Cano loose ain’t necessarily that bad. But then I ask myself, what if his antics will go away and he’ll dial in? I guess there are too many “ifs” in that statement.
SoS,
I hate to encourage the hit count, but you should read the original post @ NM. It’s quite bizarre, whether it’s true or not.
Ray,
I think Pete has said the report time to the stadium for 1pm starts is around 10am.
If you’re out drinking and dancing at 4am, even if you leave at 4am, you’re maybe getting 5 hours of sleep. Maybe. Depends on how long it takes them to get home and fall asleep.
I don’t know about you, but when I was 21 and I was out drinking the night before, 5 hours of sleep rarely had me ready to tackle a lecture let alone play MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.
Now let’s say they were only drinking seltzer. Still, 5 hours rest is not enough for people who need their bodies and their minds to be on.
The guys out making million dollar deals after partying are usually on some kind of prescription or illegal drug to get them through the day.
Don’t insult me and tell they aren’t. I have many friends who work in the financial world and I know what they do to power through their days.
Neither; Accardo was the one traded for Hillenbrand
Don’t know about who’s supposed to be the better of the two
Hey guys.
You know, this whole finding housing in the Bronx thin would be easier if I knew where to look (other than Craigslist).
Anyway. Good win last night, went to bed real happy. Have to hope Wang can keep building off of the start he had yesterday–if he and Pettitte can get back on track, it changes everything and gives us a chance to win five straight again.
Hoping for good things from Rasner.
Mel,
I’m not a lesbian. I’m a dude. I was kidding, lol.
But if I was a lesbian, I’d be a fabulous one.
Remember how awful Cano used to be during day games? Now he’s just awful. I’m hopeful, though, that it gets better.
raymagnetic,
I think we debated this yesterday, but partying this is tricky. I see where you’re coming from…I’m 27 and I fondly remember those days of partying. They decrease in frequency eventually and no one should be able to tell a person what they can and cannot do.
I think the problem for me is the talent I know Cano has and perhaps the potential we may see someday. Its just a difference of expectations. His life is his life, sure, but to project myself in his shoes, I’d be workin’ my tail off for my team.
“I’ll never understand why people are so concerned about Cano’s and Melky’s partying habits.”
Thats simple ray. Because Cano should be studying film on how its not a rule to swing at first pitches. Melky should be studying film on just because first base looks like second/third/home doesnt make it ok to slide in there. Mabe film of Carl Lewis would help.
As long as they are not drunk in games. Let them be. Mickey loved partying and didnt do that bad on the field. To me its the confort level. I own my own company and i know that if an employee gets too confortable. They get complacent. The hunger goes and so does the production.
G. Love-
Images of RuPaul are flashing through my mind’s eye. Rodman was another confused dude.
Brandon,
I gotta tell you. I’m just knot all that enamored with Jonathan Sanchez. He’s having a nice year but he still really walks way too many hitters.
He pitches in what is by far the weakest hitting division in all of baseball. The D’backs, Dodgers, and Padres are all poor offensive teams.
The yankees biggest problem right now is driving in runs. Matsui is one of the few hitters doing that well.
I’m not in a hurry to move matsui. They still have a chance to win this year.
we love lesbians, we love lesbians
Blargh,
Thanks.
G. Love,
Not everyone is wired to need 8 hours of sleep in order to perform their job.
Cano and Melky are still playing excellent defense which shows me they’re on their toes out there and not sleep walking through the games.
I honestly don’t believe their partying is effecting their offense. They’re just two young players learning how to play. None of them played a full season in AAA in the minors. They were basically forced to learn how to play in the majors.
By the way yesterday their were also people here talking about Cano and Melky’s partying ways and I raised the same arguments then, just to let you know I’m not picking on you.
The Yanks have more than a chance to win this year, if they can just put together a streak of more than two wins in a row.
Still, they have got to figure out Robbie Canò. The longer this goes on, the worse it is for the Yankees. Right now he’s as much of an automatic out as they come, which is not very encouraging.
Well lets look at the bright side in all this. At least Cano and Leche arent at strip clubs for the food like Pacman.
“I honestly don’t believe their partying is effecting their offense. They’re just two young players learning how to play. None of them played a full season in AAA in the minors. They were basically forced to learn how to play in the majors.”
yeah, i agree with this. and i dont think anywhere here can really say for sure what these guys are doing in their free time anyway, so all this partying talk is just speculation.
so that article about the candy is what the Metrodome has in the visitors clubhouse, right? not like that yankees were traveling with or ordering all that stuff beforehand?
that said, the yankees should stock the visiting clubhouse with a mcdonalds or a kfc…
CB would you not be worried of losing Matsui for nothing, I mean his contract ends in 2009 wouldn’t selling high be wise ?
I mean Jonathan Sanchez would have upside for a LHP, as for Valdez solid SU/CL stuff.
CB do you think if offered, hypothetically can Hideki Matsui land a package of Jonathan Sanchez and Merkin Valdez ?
Not a chance. Why would the Giants do that? They aren’t in position to win anytime soon. They should keep the young pitching and begin to augment it with the likes of Posey and the kid from Witchita St. Maybe get a more youthful free agent bat or two. Moving any of those kids for a mid to late 30’s bat at this juncture is just dumb.
I think some people on the blog also have a problem with Cano and Melky stealing all the women in the same clubs they go to. So Pete needs to tell both anytime they see a Lohud badge from a blogger. Step off or at least share.
mel,
wouldnt know how to find it.
Fredo my guess is you missed “hypothetically”
“Offensively Cano is top 3 in all of major league baseball…”
I hope that becomes true again! Yahoo Fantasy ranks him #8. And this year my 4th round fantasy pick is ranked the #37 2B in MLB (I didn’t even know there were 37 2Bs!).
I think he’ll come back, but it’s tough to rank him with Utley, Kinsler, Uggle, Upton, Roberts or Phillips right now.
BTW anyone see this ?
Tino: Let him do his Joba!
Question. We have Chase Wright in the AA doing really well. His path to the bigs doesnt look so good. Why not try him as a lefty reliever in the minors and see how that goes? Thats assuming they arent planning on packaging him up for some need.
Ray,
My internet got knocked out from the storms so I didn’t know the partying was the topic yesterday.
BTW, if any of you have Verizon Fios and your internet and phone go down after a power outage, all you have to do is pull the 5 pound battery out of the ONT control thing they install in your wall and then put it back in 5 minutes later and they come back on. I spent the past 2 days waiting for someone to show up to do this and they finally told me to do it on the phone when they missed 3 scheduled repair appointments.
As for the rumors of Cano and Melky partying this weekend, my wife’s co-worker knew who they were and she said all the guys in the club went crazy when they walked in. I don’t think she made it up and it bugged me when I thought about the fact they had all 1pm games this weekend.
I don’t think the partying is the problem though. I think the player is the problem.
I just think Cano’s number one priority isn’t being the best 2b in the league.
I mean seriously, if the pitchers in the league have made an adjustment to him and that is why he’s struggling, he needs to put some work in other than staring in the mirror chanting “my swing will come around” and make his own adjustments. Every other player in this lineup who started off poorly has made adjustments.
That said, if Cano were hitting .300 right now I’d still trade him for a top of the rotation starter that we would have for the next several years.
I could care less what these guys do after the game. At 23 -25 years old and making the kind of cheese these guys are making, I would party too.
I think latin players in general get mis-read as being “lazy” or “don’t care” (i.e Manny) when really they come from a culture where you enjoy life and family and don’t get too worked up and stress about everything. I am from the caribbean and understand this mentality, so it is hard for me to judge these guys because they party at all hours of the night and have to play the next day. Americans just have a different mentality, and that’s ok. Ultimately, I think we all want the same things in life. K, i’m off my soap box now.
Brandon,
You can’t worry about losing Matsui next year. Who knows whats going to happen. And in general I think he likes it in NY a lot.
Both the mets and the yankees have older teams. One of the things that’s really helped the yankees this year is their depth.
Having Matsui, Damon, Giambi at one point seemed like a problem. But rotating players has helped keep them fresh.
If Matsui leaves he’d be a type A player. He’s been one of the better hitters in the AL so far this year.
I personally don’t like trading for pitchers with control problems. Sanchez has improved in many ways but he’s walking just as many hitters as he always has.
He can get away with that in the NL West. He won’t in the AL East.
G. Love’s 12:49 post hit the nail on the head.
A 2B can be replaced. Especially one thats out partying to the wee hours of the morning and swinging at the ball on the first pitch like he’s Ike Turner.
Finding a top of the line stud for the rotation that is a) lefty, b) can eat innings like White Castles, and c) the current Cy Young award holder in the AL is priceless.
GM’s and analysts always say: a fair trade makes both sides feel a little pain.
SoS,
Link getting stuck. Look under the Yankee blogroll on the right of this page. It’s the first one that starts with an ‘N’.
There’s a funny pic of Robbie and Melky at the top of the page. The article about Pete is the second entry.
Honestly, I could care less about Cano’s off field proclivities.
Believe me, during the Dynasty Years, the Yankees didn’t have a team full of choirboys on the partying front.
I don’t think his love of the nightlife has anything to do with his struggles. I really don’t.
What it comes down to is, how do you build your team? What are your priorities and who are the guys you are looking to count on for the next 4-5 years?
What are your important areas?
I’m not one who believes second base is a need position in order to win championships. I think starting pitching, SS, a power hitter (Arod) solid defense, and a closer are all more important ingredients to win.
I know some Yankee fans hate looking at the big picture. However, its important to do so because that determines who they will commmit to monatarily over the long haul.
They made a big commitment to Cano this off-season. One I might add, they didn’t have to do.
With that comes responsibility on his part. He’s been a huge disappointment so far this year.
That doesn’t mean you dump him. It just means that if an intriguing offer comes your way for him, you don’t discount it out of hand. Perhaps they would have a year ago.
I don’t think that’s the case today.
good point CB I’d still think about it but I get it.
P.S. have you seen this ?
hmm…well that didn’t take long
SOS,
Chase Wright is on the DL in AA with a shoulder injury.
“A 2B can be replaced.”
Not a second baseman who was 9 wins better than a replacement level second baseman.
That second baseman can’t be replaced. You have to pick up those wins from other positions, which is possible. But to say losing cano won’t hurt a lot is not accurate.
You can believe or not, but last year Cano contributed more wins to the yankees than any other player except for ARod. He was that much better than the average player they could have gotten to replace him.
Not saying Cano is untouchable but you are not going to replace him with a player that is close to as good as he can be at second base. Not hapenning.
You can say that having a big time second baseman isn’t important as most teams don’t have good 2b. But it’s tough to say that losing the position player who accounted for the second most wins on your team isn’t important.
If you think the league has Cano figured out and he’s not going to adjust that’s a seperate story. Then you’re saying he’s just not going to be that good moving forward.
But replacing the Cano of the past 3 years with another 2b will be an enormous drop off that will be felt.
mel,
I got it thanks. I dont see the big deal.
Hi mel,
What are you thinking about the Lakers/C’s series?
Brandon: Interesting. You remember the success they had with el Duque, no?
CB,
I’m saying you can replace his production in other ways. Not from the second baseman who replaces him.
If you upgrade your starting pitching, and his production is distributed among other players on the team, you overcome it.
“SOS,
Chase Wright is on the DL in AA with a shoulder injury.”
Plus he’s not a centerpiece of a trade for any sort of top flight player. Wouldn’t go so far as to call him a throw-in, but he’s not the key component in a package deal for a big time player.
I think that the prudent thing to do is wait a little longer on Cano. It’s be foolish to make a judgement on Cano based on 2 months of work. I seriously doubt that the Yankees are on the phone shopping Cano based on the early results.
Brandon: Interesting. You remember the success they had with el Duque, no?
Si
. Dayan has been compared to Manny Ramirez and Omar Linares who is probably the most top slugger known in Cuba.
Brandon,
The only thing I’ve read about Viciedo is that scouts are very divided on him.
He was fantastic as 15-16 year old and has declined since then as he supposedly has gained a lot of weight. Scouts aren’t sure if he can stick at 3rd base. That means he’s another 1b/DH.
It’s also really unclear whether he can even be a free agent. It sounds like he’s more likely to be subject to the draft next year. He was in Miami before the draft but his name was not submitted to MLB/ teams on the list as draft eligible players. That means he should be subject to the draft next year. But perhaps his agent can spin it so he’s not and becomes a free agent.
Cuban players, especially hitters, have been surprisingly unsuccessful in the majors.
I’d be very, very hesitant to sign him if he wanted a major league deal. They don’t have room on the 40 man.
Rolling Rock: choice beer
from Crasnick over at ESPN (article was about the 9 HR hitters not hitting HRs this year). Cano was number 9:
Robinson Cano (four home runs, or one per every 60 at-bats)
When Cano was hitting .151 in late April, Yankees hitting coach Kevin Long and scouts who followed the club insisted that he was a “rhythm and timing” hitter who would find his groove eventually. Now that he’s raised his average to a more palatable .227, that appears to be the case.
So when will the power come? Judging from Cano’s career portfolio, he should start depositing more balls into the seats in about a month or so.
In his first three big league seasons, Cano hit 13 homers in 751 at-bats in April, May and June. In July, August and September, he hit 35 long ball s in 859 at-bats. It might be a stereotype that Latin players pick it up when the temperatures rise, but Cano, a native of the Dominican Republic, sure seems to embody it.
ray,
Glad to see a win, an ugly win, but I’ll take it. We’re getting beat, but some of the Celtics “toughness” is “illusory”. Moving screens, pushoffs in the backs on rebounds, hands on the wrists, etc. But that’s okay. I’m proud of our guys and expect more than Kobe and the Machine to show up tomorrow.
What the hell? I’d rather have the Yankees miss the playoffs this year and keep Cano and have a chance to sign Sabathia this offseason. This has gotten out of hand.
I know CB. I think his agent is selling him as an OF too. Mostly COF ofcourse. It’s interesting because he should not be in this year’s draft because he landed in Miami, I guess they found a loop hole. I’m gonna follow this story because he saids his idol is Alex Rodriguez.
SJ,
I agree with you that you could replace Cano through the players you get in return. That’s definitely possible.
All I’m saying is that he’s an unconventional player who has been an enormous relative advantage to the yankees over the past three years.
That’s just not going to be easy to replace. Putting a “gritty” second baseman in there is going to a major drop off in wins and that needs to be off set. So the deal has to be a very good one.
I’m not saying he’s untouchable. If Arizona wanted to send Justin Upton to visit NY I’d have Cano pack his bags very quickly. I’m just very hesitant to do it.
But its just my opinion that Cano will be very difficult to replace based on what he’s done for the past three years.
And I don’t think CC is the right deal, JMO. I don’t want him for the cost it’ll take. But that’s an issue outside of Cano.
Rishi: The trouble with that is with the heat last weekend, Cano should have MASHEd and he didn’t.
I van’t believe we might not get Hughes till August.
Again expect a trade for a pitcher for this and next year.The Yankees aren’t gonna give up the season with a $200 million payroll and the last year of this stadium.
Brandon,
He’s not Gourrial. Not even close. Gourrial is the best position player in Cuba.
CB is correct, the scouts are very divided on Viciedo.
In South Florida, EVERY one of these Cuban players get overrated by the locals. Its more a political thing than a baseball thing.
They hate Fidel so much, they want these kids to get as much money as possible so they can rub it in Fidel’s face.
A couple of scouts I know like the kid but, they don’t see him as a Manny Ramirez type of bat.
Now, if it was Gourreal that defected? That’s a different deal. Major league teams would offer him the moon.
From what I understand though, there is no chance of that happening. Apparently, he’s a true believer in Communism and has no interest in leaving Cuba.
Bob (Texas): Can Rasner keep this up or are his solid outings a fluke?
Keith Law: (1:27 PM ET ) I think he’s a legit 4/5 now with that cutter in his repertoire. Plus control helps too. Not sure I’d like his chances against the best lineups, like a healthy Boston, though.
keith,
Watch it! That attitude will get you voted off the island. Shunned. Banned.
I agree, though. Besides the immediate goal of winning, mid-term goals and long term plans have to be taken into consideration.
Sorry – was on vacation last week (Buenos Aires) – it was 55 degrees there…just got back.
I don’t trade Cano for anything other than a top of the rotation guy like CC or an All Star like Matt Holliday.
I do think he’ll come around, but I don’t like him as a player. It’s not his ethnicity for me, Mariano is from the same area (right?) and he’s a warrior.
I do like Melky, but he also needs to do something with the bat. Last night, his swings looked awesome. There were two balls he smoked that they caught and then the HR.
I want Melky to do well and keep the job.
I’m very much for trading Cano for the right player.
However trading Cano for Kevin Millwood or Bronson Arroyo is just stupid and that’s not what I, or anyone else on here I think, is advocating.
CB,
I can see your point.
I think if they had a first baseman last year who could deliver average numbers from the position, Cano’s numbers wouldn’t be as commanding. If they have one next year, it reduces the need for above average production from the second base position.
I think its tougher to find top end starting pitching than it is to find a second baseman. Especially one who is trending downward since 2006.
I might add, if he was hitting .300 right now, I’d still consider a CC-Cano trade.
For me, it comes down to which player gives you the biggest upside over the short term and long term? I think its the top end starter.
Obviously, this depends on CC’s health, contract demands, etc. All legitimate factors to be considered before a deal of this magnitude could ever go forward.
J.B. (Dunmore, PA): What is your impression of Brett Garnder? Is he the next CF in the Bronx or is he possibly traded for pitching?
Keith Law: (1:58 PM ET ) Not an everyday CF in the majors, especially not in NY.
CB, It’s gonna be tough what to sign I mean Inoa is a given he is priority #1
Yorman Rodriguez, Dayan Viciedo, Ezdra Abreu, Orlandito Rodriguez, Luis Domoromo..Carlos Perez..it’s gonna be a hell of a amateur signing period, my guess is 2 out of these 3 names are taken by us at best 3.
BA says Dayan has a better bat than Villalona and he was in Cuba WBC roster as a 15 years old in 2006. Dayan also is the most well-rounded player to emerge from the Cuban leagues since 1959 according to scouts.
You always have to plan for the long term. Look what happened to the Tigers an the Mets and possibly even the Mariners, who all didn’t.
For what its worth Cano’s VORP in 2006 was 49.1 and in 2007 it was 40.5. Sabathia’s was 46.5 and 65.2 respectively. I’m not sure what we can draw from that other than over the past two years Sabathia was the more valuable player (but not by much). Will Sabathia be more valuable in the future? I have no idea.
cano seemed to respond to bowa.
bowa was an all star player.
it is a little difficult to have bobby meacham, kevin long,or rob thompson get in cano’s face
because they just don’t have the clout that a former all star player would.
is there a reason why the yankee coaches are all so generic?
when guys like mattingly, guidry, or bowa say something, i think it does make a difference more than when meacham,long,or thomson says something.
maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s the way it is.
at this point, the only one who probably can get through to cano is girardi.
one 6-6 game and all this cano bashing could be in the rear view mirror.
“I think that the prudent thing to do is wait a little longer on Cano. It’s be foolish to make a judgement on Cano based on 2 months of work. I seriously doubt that the Yankees are on the phone shopping Cano based on the early results.”
It’s about a lot more than “how is Cano doing this year” – it’s a big picture, team thing, and no player is bigger than the team.
The Yankee rotation is in danger of being inadequate for maybe two more years given only their present personnel (see earlier discussions of innings caps on Hughes, Joba and IPK, plus Pettitte’s impending demise along with doubts about Moose’s maybe rebirth as a RH Moyer). The core (Jetes, Po, Mo) is also aging before our eyes, maybe depleting that critical mass before the young, home-grown pitching comes on line. My point about trading Cano is really that “It’s later than you think.”
Ironically, the fact is I think Cano is good, but I have reservations about him such that I would part with him to get back value. The only thing Cano has lost in my eyes is his untouchability. He’s not essential to me, the way some others are, and he is a very valuable trade piece. Things have changed around Cano (in the rotation) and his lackluster play has put the spotlight on him.
Seriously, wanting to trade a player in a deal to lock up a a Cy Young lefty pitcher before he goes FA (and maybe to a different team) doesn’t mean you think the player is no good; in fact it means the opposite. It’s possible under the circumstances of the two kids flaming out this year that Cano’s highest value to the team is as the catalyst in a trade to fix a glaring problem in the rotation.
“all this cano bashing could be in the rear view mirror.”
i dont see it as Cano bashing at all, at least not from most of us.
I think G. Love and SJ have it right in the sense that noone really should be untouchable, and Cano should be available for the right player.
SJ,
Your point on first base is a great one. The yankees scored 968 runs last year with horrendous first base production and also very poor left field production.
How was that possible? ARod had a monster year. But it was mostly due to Posada and Cano giving them huge production from spots you normally don’t see it.
I think perhaps more of our difference on this subject is related to CC.
I’m just very leery of the years its going to take to sign him. I thought be know he would have settled down to being the CC we saw last year but he’s still been very inconsistent. Terrific last start. Not so good the start before.
He’s already turned down 4yrs/ 80 million from the Indians. Price goes up from there.
I just don’t think he’s a guy I’d sign to be the centerpiece of my rotation for the next 7 years, especially if it takes substantial talent in addition to the money to get him back.
I’d revisit it in the off season free agent market. But I also want to see how his season goes for the rest of the year.
He’s only really had 2 outstanding years in his career.
By all accounts, Santana was the right guy, no? Did Minnesota explicitly say they did not want Cano? Or was he untouchable in the Yankees eyes? And if he was, does the first 2 months of this season change that opinion?
I realize it would take less to get C.C. Which really isn’t a lot if you Carlos Gomez was the big piece that Minny got.
“For what its worth Cano’s VORP in 2006 was 49.1 and in 2007 it was 40.5. Sabathia’s was 46.5 and 65.2 respectively.”
You can’t compare a position player’s VORP to a pitchers. They aren’t comparable. In fact VORP is sort of useless for pitchers, or at least not very helpful. They guys at BP themselves say this about pitchers vorp.
And it’s also not really Cano’s VORP you want to focus on as it ignores the runs he saves at an up the middle defensive position. Its his WARP that’s more helpful. Last year he was a 9.4 WARP player. That’s approaching elite player status.
Brandon,
I’d like to know what scouts are saying he is the most well rounded player from Cuba since 1959.
He’s not close to what Victor Mesa, Omar Linares and Gourreal were/are as players. He really isn’t.
Those 3 guys are MLB All star quality players in their prime. Linares was hitting .350 into his 40’s playing in the better division of Cuban Baseball. That guy was a horse.
I remember seeing Mesa and Linares when they came to the States many years ago to play in a tournament. Those guys were unbelievably good. Its a shame they never got the chance to show their wares in MLB. I believe they would have represented very well.
Viciedo is a very interesting prospect. To put him in the catagory of guys who would have been ML all stars if they were able to play in the States? I think that’s an overstatement, IMO.
One other thing about today’s Cuban players. Over the last 3-4 years, Cuban Baseball has taken a real hit on the island. “Hit” in terms of developing players.
They are so paranoid about guys defecting, a lot of the better prospects have been punished and not allowed to travel with the national team. Some are not even allowed to play baseball anymore.
I’m real leery about getting accurate scouting info these days re: Cuban players.
Being in South Florida, you hear all kinds of stories about what’s going on in Cuba. I’m neither well versed enough or connected enough to know what’s fact, fiction, or urban legend.
I do know though conditions for Cuban baseball players have deteriorated on the island in recent years. That much is known throughout the baseball community.
You wonder how that affects the players when its time to play against quality competition.
“And if he was, does the first 2 months of this season change that opinion?”
Maybe it changed that opinion some, but don’t forget the things that happened (or didn’t happen) around Cano; the young pitching collapsed. That kind of a development makes GMs take a fresh look at everything.
“Or was he untouchable in the Yankees eyes?”
Cano was considered untouchable in the santana trade. Cano and Chamberlain were the two players who were completely off the table.
But as SJ has pointed out Phil and Kennedy getting hurt has definitely changed the yankees needs for 2009.
But Cano was not going to be part of the Santana.
JMO but if CC is traded Cleveland is going to get prospects but no high ceiling major league pieces. We’ll see.
How do you know they were going to give you Rolling Rock?
Might have been Pabst Blue Ribbon.
You guys realize that after this thread Cano’s gonna have like a 7-7 night with a three doubles, a grand slam and 10 RBI? Right?
(okay, so I’d settle for 2-4 with an RBI, but that’s not the point)
People you are honestly getting so stupid, the kids gonna have a bad so be it.. Sabathia throws one good game and you guys wanna unload for him.. what is your problems, Cano’s a .300 hitter having a bad year so far, he’ll bounce back.. and Josh Barfield? The guy can’t stay up in the majors come on people. Plus we can sign CC in the off season, and then in a few years when guys r old and gone who u want to lead our team? Bernie Castro, Bret Gardner, Eric Duncan, and Fransisco Cervelli. Come on people, use ure common sense.. this is what ure sayin, empty out the roster..this would NOT help the yankees.. Maybe you becomin a Mets fan would help the Yanks better then that stupid proposal..
Keith-
“I’d rather have the Yankees miss the playoffs this year and keep Cano and have a chance to sign Sabathia this offseason.”
Yes, in a perfect world and scenario I would absolutely love that to happen too. The problem is, if Cleveland decides to shop CC mid season to a contender who then trades for and signs him to an extension. We then have lost out on a chance to add a piece that can really help fortify our rotation for the future.
CB
Agreed, the loss of Cano would hurt from an offensive standpoint, but like SJ mentioned that loss in production can be transferred to other areas. 2B is not an offense position for me and if we can potentially strengthen our pitching, I would rather have that strength than a 2B that can rake (or both in an ideal situation). My 2 cents.
“You can’t compare a position player’s VORP to a pitchers. They aren’t comparable. In fact VORP is sort of useless for pitchers, or at least not very helpful. They guys at BP themselves say this about pitchers vorp.
And it’s also not really Cano’s VORP you want to focus on as it ignores the runs he saves at an up the middle defensive position. Its his WARP that’s more helpful. Last year he was a 9.4 WARP player. That’s approaching elite player status.”
Thanks CB, I didn’t know that. I thought VORP was a universal way of determining a baseline for a player’s value.
CB,
I think CC is in an interesting position. He won’t have all the big market teams fighting for his services.
Yes, he turned down 4 years, 80 million from the Indians. You can get creative with his deal and still retain fiscal sanity, IMO.
At minimum, he’s getting 5 years. If Carl Pavano could get 4, CC Sabathia is getting 5. You can make a 6th year contingent on achieving certain incentives.
I think you can be creative enough to make a deal that satisfies everybody.
Whether that deal is in season or off-season, that’s up for debate.
In order for CC to have a market, more than just the Yankees and Tigers have to have real interest.
Right now, I’m not seeing that market. Perhaps it forms in the off-season.
The great unknown, and CC has done a great job in this regard, is where does he want to play?
Nobody knows. Nobody in the baseball community or agent community has any idea what he wants to do. You don’t even hear any interesting rumors about it.
Nobody is bashing Cano in this thread. If we were talking about trading him for Dontrelle Willis, I could see folks getting upset.
Having a discussion about trading him for CC Sabathia shouldn’t cause such consternation among his fans.
Its not often a guy hitting .227 is discussed in a deal for a Cy Young. Its actually a tribute to his talent than it is bashing him.
Ive been agreeing with raymag alot lately and once again Im with him on the cano and melky partying thing.
I was at the 40/40 club the night of A-Rods 30th birthday and I have a picture of me, giambi and my girl at the time…You can clearly see blow in jasons nostral in the pic and his eyeballs are buldging out about 5 inches….and he wasnt the only one looking the part.
All types of professionals party and still handle their business…not just athletes.
Hey, CB, SJ44, can you give me some names of international signings to follow when the period begins on July 1st.
Which players should we as Yankee fans covet most and root for the Yankees to sign.
I think I caught the Baseball America guys mention some Latino 17-yr-old or 18-yr-old phenom that occupies the top of everyone’s wish list? Do you know who I’m talking about? What’s his name? And what are the chance the Yankees could sign him?
BTW, for all of you interested in the Yankees draft, I have two podcasts to recommend.
1) BA’s Podcast on 06/10/08 (They discuss Cole and Bleigh)
2) NY Baseball Digest of 06/08/08.
The latter features a fascinating interview with Lane Meyer of nomaas about the Yankees’ draft. And I absolutely abhor the nomaas forum; so understand– it must really have resonated for me to recommend it.
the NBA is fixed nahhhh since when??
Every gambler has known this for decades and I am glad to see it all coming out now
Quite honestly, the young pitching in the rotation failed on such a big level that the team has to consider any move that make the rotation stronger for now and in the future.
With the pitch/innings limit that will be on Hughes again next season, you cannot count on him as a part of the rotation. In fact, I would rather see him in AAA the rest of the this year and the start of next year getting some healthy innings and refining his secondary pitches than plugging him in as a #4 or #5 next year.
They don’t have the luxury of Joba coming in from the pen to off set the inning limits that they had built in this year.
If Hughes can only go 140 innings next year, that is not enough for the organization to count on him as a core member of the rotation.
Not to mention he still has not proven he can be healthy for an entire season.
Kennedy is an even bigger question mark though. From what we saw this year, it appeared his stuff wasn’t major league ready.
There is no way you can pencil him into the rotation as a given next year. He too needs to get innings and experience in AAA and earn his way up.
So you take them out of the equation and we have Joba and Wang. We need 3 starters next year.
I’ll give Rasner a spot for now. That could change though and if he bombs out, Hughes or IPK could replace him next season provided they earn their way up.
So there are 2 spots we need to fill. 2 spots that need innings.
This is why if we can get CC and sign him to an extension this season we should do it.
He not only helps the team win this year — which is important.
He helps stabilize the biggest weakeness we are facing on the team for next season.
With CC, Joba, Wang, Rasner, we need one more starter. It could be Pettitte or it could be someone we haven’t even considered who might be out there.
But I’d much rather go into the rest of this season and the future with CC than without him.
I’m terrified by his body type, but if a 6 year at 20 mill a year (with a 7 year option with a buyout) can get him to agree to sign with us I do it. I think if we sign him for 6, we’ll get 4 really good one’s out of that not including what we get the rest of this year.
To me, it makes more sense to trade for him because you get the benefit of him in the rotation now. What he could mean to this team this year should not be lost.
But what he means to next year and the years following that is equally important.
And don’t give me the money angle. We’ll have low cost starters in Joba, Rasner, Hughes and Wang (who is arbitration eligible and won’t get free agent dollars), so we can afford one or two big toys in the rotation.
TurnTwo
June 11th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
“all this cano bashing could be in the rear view mirror.â€
i dont see it as Cano bashing at all, at least not from most of us.
I think G. Love and SJ have it right in the sense that noone really should be untouchable, and Cano should be available for the right player.
*** *** ***
Thats all I was saying this morning, some three hundred comments ago.
Not saying they should ‘give up on him and there’s no return’.
Just saying if its Cano (witha suitable prospect or two) standing in the way of acquiring a top tier pitcher, he shouldn’t be in the ‘untouchables’ anymore.
Rasner has certainly earned his spot in the rotation now. Even if Kennedy and Hughes start pitching to expectations, Rasner will have a job at the ML level for a long, long time to come.
“Thats all I was saying this morning, some three hundred comments ago.”
and we come full circle!
“With CC, Joba, Wang, Rasner, we need one more starter. It could be Pettitte or it could be someone we haven’t even considered who might be out there.”
Exactly. Take a ‘Colon’ gamble on a player ‘coming back’.
A Freddy Garcia, or along those lines.
They weill need innings from somewhere next year, ESPECIALLY if Moose or Andy (or both) don’t return.
the nba is right behind boxing and horse racing….and has been for quite some time
I agree with G Love.
Its not that Hughes and Kennedy failed from a won/loss standpoint. That’s only part of it. Its the innings.
They don’t have anybody to make up the innings those guys (especially Hughes) have lost this year.
How can it not change the Yankees plans?
Its going to change what they do. Perhaps that means they go to the mat to sign CC if he becomes a FA. Or, they make a play for him at the deadline. Or another starter for that matter.
Either way, one can argue because of the Hughes and Kennedy’s flame outs, their #1 priority is to find a top of the rotation innings eater.
They have certain chips to do it. Cano may be one of them.
That’s really all the discussion is about today.
They weill need innings from somewhere next year, ESPECIALLY if Moose or Andy (or both) don’t return.
Clearly the right decision is to trade for Bronson Arroyo.
“Agreed, the loss of Cano would hurt from an offensive standpoint,”
It’s not only losing Cano’s offense that has to be made up. It’s his defense as well.
Cano is a top 5 defensive 2nd baseman. He saved anywhere from 17-23 runs compared to an average defensive second baseman.
So Cano is a top 5 offensive second baseman and top 5 defensive second baseman.
It’s not easy to find a top 5 defensive second baseman. It’s just not, not even if you stick a grinder in there.
The yankee infield defense can only become so good. Jeter has been better this year but he’s obviously very limited. He’s gone from terrible last year to slightly above average. Alex also isn’t a great defensive 3rd baseman. The last two years he was actually pretty bad.
Cano’s defense is the only plus defense on the entire infield.
Having a guy who is a top 5 offensive and defensive player at his position is very rare.
It’s not just that you have to replace Cano’s offense – you have to replace his defense. And you have to do it knowing that ARod and Jeter aren’t moving anywhere over the next two years so you don’t have the flexibility of upgrading either of those positions defensively. And it would be impossible to make up for the loss of Cano’s defense at second with a better defensive first baseman.
Obviously, Livan Hernandez is the answer.
SJ and CB: At what point do you become concerned with Phil Hughes’ injury history?
how concerned do you get with Ian if he comes back and still can’t find the strike zone?
And how awesome is it that Joba is living up to expectations?
SJ and G.Love,
You guys are right about the innings limit problems the Yanks will encounter in the future. I just don’t think the Yanks should trade for Sabathia in the middle of the season. Especially not for Cano.
The rotation is basically set right now and in a month or two when our guys are healthy there will be a ton of depth at the position.
However like you guys say, there will be a problem with innings limits next year. In that case I say just wait for free agency and then sign Sabathia. There is a chance if the Yankees wait that he won’t be available (he could be traded to another team during this season). In that case by all means go look for a trade for another pitcher.
My point is that the Yankees should try to mitigate these trades as much as possible. I’d much rather lose a 1st round pick then lose Cano. The Yankees should pursue a trade as a last resort.
“Either way, one can argue because of the Hughes and Kennedy’s flame outs, their #1 priority is to find a top of the rotation innings eater.
They have certain chips to do it. Cano may be one of them.
That’s really all the discussion is about today.”
Whew! Thanks, SJ. I was starting to think I was losing it.
Clearly Steve Trachsel is the answer. And he’s free.
Anybody watching the toronto game and know why they were ejected?
1. CC is an oaf. yes, a very good pitching oaf right now, and lefty, but come on- the yankees dont want to pay CC zito/santana money 5+ years from now to sit on a couch eating potato chips.
2. why do people insist on trading cano? the kid is in his 3rd (?) year and his first 2 were star seasons. hes great defensively and is a major piece of the yankee youth transformation. come on people.
Barring any trades this season, what does next year’s rotation look like?
-Wang
-Joba
-Free agent
-Rasner
-Hughes
Clearly Steve Trachsel is the answer. And he’s free.
Boomer would slap you
None of Hughes’ injuries suggest any kind of injury proneness. Anyone can pull a hamstring. And none of his problems are related to arm or shoulder.
I wouldnt really be worried about that. This myth that Hughes is somehow Mr. Glass from unbreakable that Pete has helped to spread is maddening.
Could Hughes be generally unlucky with random injuries? Sure. He isn’t a guy like Prior though.
I mean look at our team this year, we had an amazing new fitness program and 2 of our best players, one of whom in Jeter who trained specifically for speed, both pulled quads.
Rebecca,
I’m not worried about his injury history. Its been fluke stuff with Hughes. His arm is healthy. That’s what matters.
I watched Josh Beckett in Florida. Nine trips to the DL with blisters. All of the “baseball experts” said he was “injury prone”. The Marlins stuck with him and it worked out. He was in the majors at the same age as Hughes. You don’t give up on top end pitching talent because the start to their careers have been rocky.
Phil Hughes is a major pitching talent. Those guys don’t grow on trees. At 21, I don’t care if he’s injured for the next 2 years, you stick it out with him. The upside is too good.
If it doesn’t work out, that’s life.
The worst thing that can happen is, the Yankees decide he is “injury prone”, trade him, and he has a 10-12 year successful major league career.
If you are the Yankees, you take your time rehabbing him. When he comes back, its a bonus.
The one thing I wouldn’t do, is pencil him into the rotation next year. Can’t do that now, IMO. If he earns his way in? Terrific.
I just don’t think you give him a spot now given the lost year this has been for him to date.
“At what point do you become concerned with Phil Hughes’ injury history?”
If he were to have any significant arm injuries then I’d be concerned.
That has never been an issue with hughes. All of those stories about Phil having some minor arm issues in the minors are way overblown. The yankees are so conservative with young pitchers its hard to get over. They just take as close to zero chances as possible. They shut guys down at the drop of a pin. Look at how long its taken alan horne to come back from biceps tendinits. He’s been saying he feels fine two weeks prior to him getting back into the triple A rotation.
I’m not worried about Phil Hughes. I’m not. He’s going to throw strikes he’s gong to be a good.
On Joba – if anyone missed Stick Michael’s interview with Mike and the Mad Dog this week listen to the podcast. It was great. Stick just made them look silly as they tried to get started on their Joba to the rotation is stupid nonsense.
Russo said something to the effect, “Stick, i mean you know, the league is going to figure this Joba chamberlain out. They are going to come up with a book on him.”
Stick’s response: “When he has all 4 pitches working you can throw the book away.”
Other very interesting thing Stick said, and I really agree with this, – he said he though Joba’s curve ball could become a better pitch than his slider. It’s more of a different look compared to his fastball.
We can speculate until we’re blue in the face about whether we would trade Cano or not.
But the people who make those decisions are sure as heck not going to trade Cano in the middle of the season.
Not a chance.
It would go completely against everything Cashman has done the last two years and trying to build a core of youth.
They gave Cano an extension during the offseason and this is a team that doesn’t do that with young players.
Cano is going nowhere. And if by chance they do acquire Sabathia – it won’t be until the offseason when they won’t have to trade any of their young kids.
If you think Cashman is going to trade Cano or pull the trigger on this kind of deal – you haven’t been paying attention the last two years.
Repeatedly, we have learned that, in baseball, immense, long-term deals, on properties you don’t know, often don’t pan out.
I don’t think Kennedy will be a Yankee in the spring. I think he will pitch most of this season in SWB, I think he will get a chance to pitch again on the ML level, to show he’s got his act together. I think Kennedy is tradeable. Always has been.
I’m not so certain about Cano. What they get back for Cano is the question mark. I don’t know if I’d take the risk with CC. I’d be more apt, if he’s available, to go the free agent route with him, depending on what the rotation does the balance of this season. But unless everyone in MLB is going to buck a trend, he’s going to cost too many years and just about too much money.
It is fun to talk about, and I don’t get the feeling that people are so much bashing on Cano here as perhaps coming to a realization he may be expendable in light of the fact that as of this date the Yankee’s rotation is nowhere near where they’d hoped and there are question marks for next season that they didn’t think would be there. I personally hope Cano sticks around, but I’m all for improving the team if it is a real improvement.
Agreed, Doreen!
pitching may be the key to winning ,but i don’t trust the durability of any one pitcher.
i wouldn’t want to put all my eggs in a sabathia basket.
unless the basket was at a really good price.
but how is cano plus a monster free agent signing price a good price?
i’m not even sure that sabathia is worth what he’ll get in cash alone.
SJ and CB: Thanks for that–intersting getting the different perspective. Everything I’ve been reading is saying he’s injury prone, but I guess I’m reading the wrong stuff
on’t WANT to see Cano go, nor Melky, Phil and especially Joba.
I see Joba as the only untouchable of the whole lot. Maybe Phil too. But def Joba.
However, if Melky, Cano, Kennedy et al can return another young player, under 30, in an area where the NYY are especially weak, then I’m all for it.
*Don’t want …
the only problems with the yankee rotation right now are wang and pettitte who have pretty good track records to make us believe they will turn it around. moose/rasner are on the right track, joba is improving and we have a ton of young arms for the future. i cant find a reason to give a long term deal to a free agent pitcher. how many times do the yankees make free agent pitcher signings that turn out to be worth it?
Certain circles thought Gene Michael was crazy for trading Kelly for O’Neil….
Youth for a guy in his prime.
Worked well. IMHO.
Hey, Toronto lost!
On another subject, did anybody catch Gammons on Kay’s show last week?
With Joba going into the rotation, he called Craig Hansen, “the best setup man in the AL East”.
Really, is he serious?
I get the whole Red Sox thing. At this point in Gammons career, I don’t even mind him being a Red Sox homer.
But, c’mon, Craig Hansen is now the best setup guy in the AL East?
He’s not even the best setup man on his own team.
Geez, Kyle Farnsworth is better than Craig Hansen. So is Dan Wheeler, Chad Bradford, Jim Johnson, and Jason Fraser.
How can a guy who knows the game (and make no mistake, he knows the game) say something so foolish?
“i’m not even sure that sabathia is worth what he’ll get in cash alone.”
I completely agree. Before you can assess any move for Sabbathia everything depends on what kind of deal he’s looking for.
You sign Sabbathia and the deal goes bad then this franchise has moved back years again.
It’s really about how you want to manage risk and uncertainty.
Probably not any one answer to that question.
That Gammons Craig Hansen comment was really just embarrassing. How could he say that? Hansen may be doing better this time than his prior call ups but he’s still really inconsistent and just not all that great.
He absolutely imploded last night for the sox. They were down 7-6 and he proceeded to load the bases and give up 3 runs.
His fastball last night really reminded me of Farnsworth’s – coming in at 97 and straight as an arrow. When Hansen can’t locate his slider he’s going to get hit very hard.
It’s hard to know how Gammons can say things like that.
SJ that’s hilarious… When they drafted Hansen and he first came up he was one of the “can’t miss” guys. Saying that he’s the best in the AL East is just ridiculous – if all the set up men in the AL East were placed into a draft and the 5 teams had their picks, I’m not sure Hansen even goes in the top 10
SJ -
It’s because Gammons is the quintessential “homer”. In his mind there is no Red Sox player with a downside.
SJ: There’s an answer to that but you wouldn’t like it.
“He’s not even the best setup man on his own team.”
Heck, I’d take everyone in Toronto’s bullpen over Hansen. Camp, Carlson, Downs, Frasor, Tallet and Wolfe all have better stats and I’m not even including BJ Ryan.
“It’s hard to know how Gammons can say things like that.”
because people who ask the questions, like Michael Kay, either arent intelligent enough to know the players and prospects around the league to call him out on it, or are just drinking the company kool-aid and allow the “Dalai Lama” of ESPN’s baseball coverage to spew nonsense.
Its not just Gammons. Bill Madden declared that Hansen would decide the race in 2005 after he was drafted by the Red Sox. In a way, that was dumber than Gammons’ comment last week.
Maddon also cited Hansen as one of the pitchers the Red Sox have “successfully” developed in his ridiculous column a few weeks ago.
If a 5.09 ERA (his current ERA ) with the Red Sox is “successful” development, I hearby nominate Kyle Farnsworth for Hall of Fame consideration.
Craig Hansen is a figment of northeast writers imagination. He played for a non-baseball school (St. Johns) in a weak baseball conference, and the hype has been out of control.
He’s not that good. Never has been.
If Craig Hansen played in the SEC, ACC or Pac-10, he would have never been a first round pick.
For Gammons to call him the best setup man in the AL East was beyond laughable. It was sad.
I can’t wait to hear which Red Sox player he declares is the best in the AL East today.
It was a shocking comment. I have no faith in Hansen. He has a nice live arm and that is it at this point. I am hoping PG just had dinner with Hansen’s parents and they picked up the bill. Otherwise I have no sound explanation.
Have a good afternoon.
-dennis
“It’s really about how you want to manage risk and uncertainty.”
cb-
you had said something a little while ago about how you trusted probability with the numbers of yankees pitching prospects that were being developed and drafted.
i’m in agreement with that because you never know what is going to happen to any one pitcher.
things can happen with an everyday player like arod or jeter, but when they are at the point of free agency, you have a high probability that they are going to play most of the years.
with any free agent pitcher who wants a long contract, you don’t have the same certainty or probability that they will pitch most of the contract.
with a minor league pitcher like hughes or even joba, if they get injured the team is out about 3-5 million and no permanent fiscal damage is done.
it’d be unfortunate, but it’s not an albatross around the neck of the team for years to come.
“I can’t wait to hear which Red Sox player he declares is the best in the AL East today.”
Probably JD Drew, he’s been hot the last few weeks which makes him better then everyone else in the AL East.
Anyways, my JV team has a tournament starting today… wish me luck, I’ll be back for the game
dennis-
drove by the orleans field today . the cardinals were out there practicing taking bp.
that’s always a sure sign that summer is here.
Some of you should remember the role Craig Hansen played in that 5 game sweep of the Red Sox at Fenway the Yankees had a couple years ago.
Would love it if someone can find the numbers from that series. I distinctly remember Hansen lost two of those games, and I think Giambi owned him as he currently does Timlin.
Whenever I hear Sox fans brag about Hansen, I always play the 5 game sweep card.
CC Is fat now, wait until he gets a big, comfortable contract, he’ll probably balloon to 375. Do the Yankees need that?
Hey, CB, SJ44, can you give me some names of international signings to follow when the period begins on July 1st.
Which players should we as Yankee fans covet most and root for the Yankees to sign.
I think I caught the Baseball America guys mention some Latino 17-yr-old or 18-yr-old phenom that occupies the top of everyone’s wish list? Do you know who I’m talking about? What’s his name? And what are the chance the Yankees could sign him?