Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 17, 2008 
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Chien-Ming Wang is out until at least September But don’t expect a rash move from Brian Cashman.
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If you’re looking for a good place for baseball headlines from every team and a bunch of blogs, check out Alltop.
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Padres-Yanks tonight. That’s 1,000 combined saves for Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera. Back later with the lineups.
It pisses me off that Cashman isnt even going to explore options. I guarantee we get someone like Wolfe and STILL give up someone like AJax. Bullshit when we could have Sabathia for
Melky- They could use an extra OFer with a good arm
Horne- Good young pitcher with a mid-high ceiling
Kennedy- Another good young pitcher with a mid-high ceiling
Robertson- good young relief pitcher
and maybe through Marquez in.
A 4 or 5-1 deal with those types of players is a win-win for both teams
I hope Cash DOESNT do that. The teams with decent starters that might be willing to trade would try and bleed us dry even WITHOUT leverage; imagine the asking price now?
Don’t expect Hughes to be included in any package.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....ankees-do/
Hughes won’t since he will still be hurt when or if a trade goes down.
Give the best reason for Wang to be back in Sep. – Go Yankees – World Championship.
“Don’t expect Hughes to be included in any package.”
Good. Despite what we saw from an (injured) Hughes at the beginning of the season, this guy is as potential ace-like as Hamels, Lincecum, etc.
This injury, though I wish it would not have happened, will give the Yankees a chance to really take a look at their minor leagues. Geise, Horne, Karstens, and who knows will be given a chance to prove themselves. It will be interesting.
The Yankees are going a different way now. Players like Sabathia etc. are not in their plans unless they come cheap and that is not going to happen.
You don’t just jump into trades when an injury like this happens. You see what develops. That is what Cashman has done in the past, and what he is doing now. Putting together a trade right now gives him no leverage.
You never know who could step up. Give it some time and see what comes together.
Baseball according to Buster:
Wang fill-in trade candidates include: Paul Byrd and Randy Wolf (who pitches tonight at YStadium)
what a dog omar is. i can deal with letting willie go, but to do it that way is so freaking weak. omar is a piece of crap.
I wonder what Boy Wonder Lupica has to say about his Mets now?
How in the world do you send Willie and the coaches to the West Coast and fire them after a win?
I think the Mets have now won 3 of their last 4, correct? If that’s the case, what a “great” time to fire these guys.
The Mets are a joke. Always have been, always will be.
They let a moron like Steve Phillips run their franchise into the ground. They then hire an incompetent (Omar) to a job that is WAY over his head.
They now let him embarrass the franchise more with this type of punk action. They deserve the heat they will get for this from the media.
Where are the Wilpons in all this? In the Witness Protection Program. Nary a word from ownership during this entire soap opera. What an embarrassment.
Could you imagine if Hank or Hal acted like this? They would get KILLED by local and national media.
Good for Willie. He can get out, take a year and a half off to collect the Wilpon’s money, then come back to pinstripes where he belongs.
I’d sign on for Paul Byrd tomorrow. Good veteran pitcher who, with run support, could win his share of games for a few months in NY.
Cashman is taking the right tack. Sit tight until the AS Break. By that time, the trade market will form and you see what develops.
Between now and the AS Break, Wang’s slot in the rotation comes up 4 times. If the Yankees go 2-2 in those starts, they are ok.
Its up to the other guys to pick up the slack and the offense needs to get rolling. If that occurs, they buy some time until the trade market forms, while also winning their share of games.
Don’t fall victim to the “Yankees are doing it a different way” jargon.
If they can acquire CC Sabathia at a price they could live with, they will do it.
What they won’t do is overpay for him. A key distinction from, “they are doing things differently” now.
If they were, they wouldn’t have spent over 400 million bucks in the off-season re-signing their own free agents.
The Yankees are still the Yankees. They wake up this morning only 4 games back in the loss column from the Red Sox.
If folks think they will spend the rest of the year with guys like Dan Giese, Jeff Karstens, Kei Igawa, etc. auditioning for Wang’s slot in the rotation they are dreaming.
They will still go all in to try and win this year. They just won’t be dumb about it.
I still cannot believe Willie was fired. I am in shock
SJ44 -
Did you hear what Cashman said to M&MD yesterday in the interview, when he was asked if he thought the veteran players believed they were “all in” to win this season? He said, and I can’t quote because I don’t remember the EXACT words, but, that the players knew they were in it to win every 1st and 15th of the month!
I thought that was a pretty amusing, but pretty telling statement. What he was saying is that the players know that the Yankees will spend the money.
The only way they get through this without going outside the organization is if at some point one of those guys really steps up, and the rest of the staff as constructed continues to pitch well; if Hughes can come back strong; if Wang can come back in September. Otherwise, I do look for them to secure a short-term veteran pitcher.
This has certainly been an eventful and interesting season thus far, though not in the way that I thought it would be!
they Mets are a pathetic excuse of a professional baseball organization
MLB should institute the English Premier League rule of demoting teams and flush the Mets to single A where they belong
I actually feel ill over what happened to Willie. Disgraceful
great teams overcome adversity and injuries. the yankees are being challenged to show if they are a great team now.
our ace is mussina, #2 is pettitte, #3 is joba. after that, rasner, giese, karstens or even igawa will pitch and the team has to pick them up. thats who we have and thats who we have to win with.
no use talking about who’s not there or looking at guys in other uniforms. the only guys they have to look at are themselves.
the tigers are getting up off the deck, we still have oakland and tampa bay ahead of us, and then there’s the red sox, this is no time for the yankees to be feeling sorry for themselves, cause nobody else is gonna feel sorry for them.
the yankees have what they need to crash the postseason right there in the locker room. now is the time for these 25 guys to show if they are going to be a great team.
sweep the padres!
S.A. –
The way things were going for the last month, I’m not surprised Randolph was fired. Any management has the right to do what it wishes in that regard. What really gets me is how they did it.
The Yankees under Steinbrenner have had their share of, shall we say, mishandlings of managerial changes, too, though. And they were roundly chastised for letting Joe Torre “twist in the wind” after the 2006 and 2007 seasons. So, I don’t want to be one of the “pot calling the kettle black” crowd. But you’d think the Mets would have learned how NOT to do it by watching some of the Yankees stuff over the years. (Yogi? Martin?)
The Mets are gutless, though I don’t need any excuses to say that lol.
During the season and after the season are two very different circumstances
Oh I agree Doreen.
I know the Yankees have had their moments too…not too proud of them either.
I was just so shocked to wake up to this news..especially since they won last night. A part of me still thinks we are being punk’d..lol
I just feel bad for Willie, no matter what…he is a good guy and didn’t deserve this.
Good Morning
Shapes up to be an interest month coming ahead – lots of high-impact decisions to make and lots of options available.
“Between now and the AS Break, Wang’s slot in the rotation comes up 4 times. If the Yankees go 2-2 in those starts, they are ok.”
I totally agree with this – especially because the other members of the rotation are consistently putting the team in position to win night in, night out.
However – that spot in the rotation had ZERO wins until Rasner solidified it. (IPK and Hughes specifically).
Big opportunity for Giese Horne or the japanese pitcher whose name I can’t bring myself to type to make a contribution.
S.A. -
I know – the way the Mets seemed to be playing their game was, if the Mets won, Willie was “safe for another day.” And I do feel bad for Willie because I like him and I think he’s a good guy, too. And no one deserves to be treated this way.
It’s funny, because I would not have followed the Mets for the last couple of years as closely as I have were it not for Randolph being there. I wanted him to do well and I was so happy when he brought them into the playoffs in 2006. I don’t think I’ll be caring too much what happens to that team in the near future.
I think that the Mets have just lost a lot of good will from Yankees fans.
S.A. -
I also figured if they let him make the trip to the West Coast, unless things went really badly out there, he was safe until they got back to NY. Shows what I know.
Doreen –
If you caught that Cashman interview – did you hear the part at the tail end when Cashman discussed a conversation with Hank when he was down in Tampa for the draft?
Sounds like Hank was very positive towards Cashman and the way that the team had coped through the early injuries to A-Rod and Posada. Cashman said he hadn’t thought about his personal contract situation with the Yankees (white lie).
Cash said he needed to talk to his wife, but i wouldn’t be surprised if a deal is done before long.
“they Mets are a pathetic excuse of a professional baseball organization
MLB should institute the English Premier League rule of demoting teams and flush the Mets to single A where they belong”
AGREED! Only why would they play as high as Single A?
TKinDC -
Yes, I did. It sounded like an endorsement – a confirmation that even with the way things hadn’t worked out so far, that the Steinbrenners were still on the same page with Cashman as far as the overall direction of the team.
I still don’t expect Cash to do anything re: himself until after the season, though, but it sounded pretty good.
The Yankees never treated Joe Torre like the Mets treated Randolph.
Even when Torre was “insulted” with a one year offer, he wasn’t that “insulted”. If it was a two year offer, he would have signed on the dotted line. For all the talk from outsiders about how Torre was “mistreated” by the Yankees, he was ready to come back if the terms were to his liking. Meaning, he wasn’t mistreated at all.
You never hear ANYBODY from the Yankees, on or off the record, badmouth Joe Torre for his years of service.
They could talk about some things yet they don’t. Tells you the difference between the two organizations.
I still can’t believe the way the Mets did it. Its almost as if they wanted to punish Willie? For what? For Omar putting together a team of soft players? That’s Willie’s fault?
Its amazing to me how short the memories are for Mets ownership and fans. Do they not remember the Art Howe Era?
Nobody is going to sell that Willie is one of the greatest managerial strategists in baseball. However, tell me WHO wins with that team as presently constructed? Nobody.
Is Carlos Beltran a 117 million dollar player? Nope. Can Omar EVER find a player who isn’t over 35 and broken down to help win games? Nope.
They destroyed their farm system to get one pitcher who is showing signs of regression. Is that smart? Nope.
Yet, that falls all on Willie’s lap and they expect him to win with that group. That’s insane.
Add to it the way the front office backdoors the manager and the whole snarky way they do business.
You NEVER see Brian Cashman or anybody in the Yankee front office in the locker room everyday.
Mets front office people live in that locker room. All that does is promote distrust and dishonesty.
Only a moron like Omar Minaya can make a bigger moron like Steve Phillips look competent.
This is the best thing to happen to Willie. The Mets don’t deserve to have somebody like Willie in their organization.
i wrote here on sunday that i didnt think willie would be getting on that flight to disneland of los angeles because i thought the decision had been made to fire him and there’s no way they’d make him fly to anahiem (of los angeles) and then fire him. i thought that would be waaaaaay to classless and not even the mets were that clueless and cruel.
obviously i was giving the mets credit that wasnt deserved. they have no class.
and how wimpy was it for the wilpons to wimp out and put this on omar the dog instead of cleaning up the mess themselves? im sure they are going to wish they had after they read the papers today and tomorrow.
and whoever leaked the names of the replacements to the press yesterday morning deserves to be staked to the ground naked with honey applied to sensitive areas.
a gutless, classless organization.
“I also figured if they let him make the trip to the West Coast, unless things went really badly out there, he was safe until they got back to NY. Shows what I know.
”
LOL..that’s what I thought too.
Just horrible
SJ44 -
I don’t disagree that the Yankees never treated Joe Torre this badly, just pointing out that they were criticized for making him await their decisions in the past 2 off-season. But in general, I agree with you that the Yankees do not air their laundry, dirty or otherwise, or at least they haven’t in a great many years, the way the Mets have done in this situation with Randolph.
Think they bought Willie an airline ticket home or did they just dropped him off at LAX?
bush league move
“It pisses me off that Cashman isnt even going to explore options.”
He’s exploring options ALL THE TIME. That’s how he knows there’s no market right now.
Oh…wait, your definition of “explore options” is “offer bad trades to anyone who will listen.” You’re right, he’s not going to do that.
Doreen,
I think the entire issue between the Yankees and Torre centered on one thing and it wasn’t money.
I think Joe wanted “professor emertius” status for winning 4 titles and the Yankees tend to look at things on a year by year basis.
Taken seperately, you can understand both positions.
However, if you run a franchise, you can only go so long rewarding the past. You can understand the disconnect between the parties when it reaches that point. Its why it was best for both sides to move on.
Hopefully, Joe will chill out in the next year or so and allow the Yankees to honor him like they want to.
You would hate to see a relationship, which benefited both parties beyond anybody’s wildest dreams, go down the tubes over ego related stuff. To me, that’s pointless.
Joe didn’t like the fact that, in his mind, the organization graded or viewed him in a harsher tone since 2004.
Conversely, only those 4 titles kept Joe from not getting fired after the ’04 debacle. No other manager would have survived that, let alone manage another 3 years.
In the end, none of this stuff matters. Joe Torre deserves to have his number retired and have all of the honors that go with someone who has had his success with the Yankees.
“He’s exploring options ALL THE TIME. That’s how he knows there’s no market right now.”
nope, whozat, cant be. its what he’s telling us, so it has to be true.
firing Willie in the middle of the night is like the Colts moving from Baltimore in the middle of the night.
odd.
somehow they think by doing under cover of night it would attract less attention, when in reality, acting out of line only attracts greater scrutiny.
whozat,
I always love those, “he isn’t exploring any options” posts.
Are those folks in the room with Cashman while he is working?
I guess they think he is watching Odd Couple DVD’s and not working the phones.
Sometimes, instead of posting gibberish, these folks should go back and look at his history as GM to gain perspective into how he works.
The odds that Brian Cashman “isn’t exploring any options” to improve the team are about as slim as Willie Randolph managing the Mets tonight.
In other words, a 0% chance that’s the case.
Torre was not treated exactly well during the past two off seasons, but still it was the off season. He wasn’t trying to manage games and deal with getting fired during a winning streak.
Omar should be next to hit the streets. The uproar over how this was handled won’t be pretty. It was Omar’s call. This is how he decided to do it.
Cashman is going to try a number of things to see what works. This also may give other GM’s a chance to see some minor league players get a shot and see how they handle things. That puts Cashman back into a better position to try and cover (not fill) Wang’s role in the rotation.
Who knows, maybe things will shake out for one of the kids to step it up. Joba might show enough to put him in a higher role in the rotation, Mussina and Pettitte are going to have to be the back bone though.
I think a lot will also depend on how well Rasner bounces back from his last outing.
hey, SJ, what do you think; any chance Justin Christian gets a look-see when the Yankees finally drop the 3rd catcher from the roster?
Cashman wants Gardner to get regular ABs everyday at Scranton, but i dont think they see Christian as a true prospect in the same manner. He can sit on the bench, provide some speed and OF defense late in games. right now, he’s been fairly consistently sitting around .290, with a good career SB/CS percentage.
The Odd Couple series is out on DVDs?
Do the episodes hold up?
I dug the Cosell appearances.
“I guess they think he is watching Odd Couple DVD’s and not working the phones.”
Don’t be ridiculous. They think he’s watching MASH dvds.
Cash strikes me as a “Starsky and Hutch” kinda guy. Maybe sprinkled with some “Police Woman”
Christian is not on the 40 man roster. I can’t see them making a move on a player (they would have to DFA somebody from the 40 man roster) to add him to the roster.
I have a feeling Moeller is going to stay on the roster for awhile because I’m sure just how healthy Posada is at this time.
I’m more curious to see how they fill Wang’s spot. Do they just activate Britton from the DL on Wednesday or do they call up David Robertson?
Robertson also isn’t on the 40 man roster. To add him though, they could place Wang on the 60 Day DL and not have to remove anybody from the 40 man.
Will be interesting to see how they do it.
SJ44 -
I think that was a good breakdown of what transpired between Torre and the Yankees from 2004 onward. It will be nice when Torre is finally in a place where he can accept the accolades he’s due and the Yankees want to give. Probably won’t happen until he retires altogether, though.
I’m **not** sure how healthy Posada is at this time.
I just realized, isn’t Willie supposed to be an all star coach?
If I was Hank, I’d have him in the owners box for the game and introduce him to the crowd. The crowd would go crazy!
do coaches and managers continue to get paid on their old contracts after being fired if they sign contracts with new teams?
Randy,
The salaries with their new team are deducted from what’s owed them by their previous team.
For example, if you sign on with another team for 200K per year, and you have 400K due from your previous team, the previous team is on the hook for 200K.
I don’t know SK44, I don’t think the hedge fund managers and advertising execs attending the game Willie played for the yanks.
On the bright side, he’ll be available for Old Timers day, a day when real fans attend.
should read:
attending the all-star game know Willie played for the yanks.
Maybe Willie will volunteer his services for a while to make sure that the Mets pay him. Accept a deal for $100, let the Mets pay the rest.
Then again, I think Willie has too much class to do that.
The Mets may have lost their Willie, but the Yankees lost their Wang
Couldn’t resist
“I guess they think he is watching Odd Couple DVD’s and not working the phones.”
i think he watches bob newhart reruns which explains why so many yankee coaches look and act like newhart clones.
“If I was Hank, I’d have him in the owners box for the game and introduce him to the crowd. The crowd would go crazy!”
I forgot about the All-star game..I would cheer Willie on if Hank did that!
“I forgot about the All-star game..I would cheer Willie on if Hank did that!”
and dont think the Steinbrenners dont know that… just another opportunity to stick it to the other ‘organization’ in NY for being that nagging little thorn in their side.
I wonder if Santana is still happy to be a Met.
sj-
so randolph and petersen could both be hired by the yankees in some capacity, but wouldn’t gain anything financially.
too bad because petersen hired as a pitching consultant would be a tremendous hire if for nothing more than his dr. james andrews connection for injury prevention. the yankees need to add to their conditioning program and who better than petersen for pitching conditioning because of his long standing andrew’s relationship?
i hope petersen doesn’t go to the red sox in a similar capacity. they do have the tendency to add layer upon layer of” consultants”.
willie back to the yankees is a natural after an appropriate decompression period.
Carton is right – Yanks should hire Willie Randolph to stick a knife into the Mets.
“The Mets may have lost their Willie, but the Yankees lost their Wang”
Very funny
randy –
The Mets have to pay Willie and his staff whatever they agreed to pay him.
If he got a deal with another team (or ESPN or McDonald’s) he would negotiate that deal on its own terms.
It might make that new team pay him less while he is still being paid by the Mets, b/c Willie wouldn’t “need” the money as much, but the new deal is whatever is negotiated and the Mets deal stays in place (unless there was a buy-out)
clear as mud?
Just a quick point on clearing space on the 40 man roster – as I see it they have three moves to make before they need to release someone:
Abeladejo is on the 15 day but gone for the year, he can move to the 60 day.
Wang is out at least 6 weeks – I’m assuming he could go to the 60 day (although they might not want to commit to that yet).
Hughes went on the 15 day on April 30 so he could go on the 60 day and be eligible to return in early July, which is a few weeks earlier than anticipated anyway.
So clearing a spot for Robertson, Melancon, McCutcheon or the other flavor of the week isn’t all that difficult.
i think we guys owe somthing to the mets manengment for firing willi SO NOW NO YANKEE FAN SHOULD ROOT FOR THE METS!!!(because lots of us did it because willi was the maneger there)…lol
now i am sure willi will get a job in the majors very soon!
GOOD LUCK WILLI YOU HAVE ALL OF OUR SUPPORT HERE AT YANKEE LAND!
The Mets really did a bad job handling this – but it’s typical of this organization. And why did the first base coach get fired?
Minaya is going to be next. He has nobody else to blame, so if the Mets keep faltering can Minaya be far behind?
just curious, is there any chance of bedard going on the trade market considering the mariners are the worst team in baseball, they mentioned it on baseball tonight a couple of nights ago.
also, if moeller needs to stay on the 40 man roster b/c of posada, can’t we ditch duncan. He is worthless at this point, and betemit can cover first. then we can bring up gardner for some speed or a pitcher.
Very true, the Mets fired everyone except the Latinos
12 hours ago I hated Willie. Now I love Willie. =P
Fran I was wondering that myself. I heard he was a Willie guy. I guess conversly it would explain why the third base coach survived. He was a Omar guy.
berniewilliams – Bedard may come available but I don’t see it happening soon. The M’s just fired their GM. I can’t see a new guy coming in and trading Bedard in the first few weeks … especially right after giving up the farm to get him.
**Also read that he was in the Yankees minor league system I beleive as a manager.
Russell, they kept HoJo.
Wilpon was on 1050 distancing himself from Omar.
Off topic: Speaking of DVDs, did anyone get the Giants “Road to Super Bowl XLII” dvd yet? I got it as a Father’s Day gift, and watched some of it last night. WHile it is not HD or blue ray quality, it is still pretty good. I am really enjoying it, reliving those great moments in the post season.
“I can’t see a new guy coming in and trading Bedard in the first few weeks … especially right after giving up the farm to get him.”
i actually think its a lot easier for a new GM to come in and move Bedard now… under the idea of a major mistake of the previous management, so lets clean house, get some prospects back for him, start fresh and begin the rebuilding.
i just wonder, with Ichiro’s public comments about how bad a team they are, if he’ll be available on the market, either at the deadline, or moreso come the offseason.
“Just a quick point on clearing space on the 40 man roster – as I see it they have three moves to make before they need to release someone:”
Only problem is you don’t want to use a 60 DL for Hughes or Wang, because we assume they’ll be coming off it at some point (so you’re just postponing the point of DFA reckoning).
They’re actively shopping Hawkins for a bag of balls. If they can’t get it, he’ll be out soon. I do have a feeling Albaladejo should go on the 60 day, so with Hawkins out, you get two slots for Robertson + AAA starter.
How exactly do options work? Once someone’s on the 40 man roster, do they have to be DFAed (and go through waivers) to get off it?
They would also ask for the stars and the moon for Bedard. As others have stated he is a head case, not exactly a fit for NY.
then bedard should be seriously considered in a month or so if someone in our organization doesnt step up, and they aren’t asking to much. Personally i think we could afford to trade cano for a 29 yr old lefty ace like bedard.
I’m more concerned about Bedard’s hip problems then with his attitude towards the media and his aloofness in the clubhouse. The bottom line is that the guy can pitch, and IMO he has one of the best curveballs in the business. His personality is a secondary concern.
“Personally i think we could afford to trade cano for a 29 yr old lefty ace like bedard.”
Bedard reportedly has serious attitude issues, and a chronic hip condition. i would imagine he wouldnt be on the short list of trade options.
TurnTwo – Good point on the M’s new GM … its the one time he will be able to make mass changes without being bashed by the fans. I was wondering the same about Ichiro.
The problem with putting guys on the 60 day list and then adding guys to the 40 man is that when Hughes and Wang come back — assuming they do — you’ve got the same problem all over again, only now you’ve got more guys you definitely don’t want to DFA. It can be done, but you’re only postponing tough decisions. They’re probably going to end up having to make a trade this summer, if only to avoid losing guys they want to hold onto.
bernie williams – surely you jest – Cano for Bedard?
I have a great trade proposal:
Trade nothing for Phil Highes back in August and Wang back in September.
Trade nothing for two stud bullpen arms in Melancon and Robertson by mid-July.
Make due for the rest of June and a softer schedule in July, hoping IPK can fill in.
We’re 4 back in the loss column from the division lead, same for the wild card. Let’s not panic.
i dont think we need to look at ichiro, we have a pretty solid outfield. abreu, damon, and matsui have been good. melky despite his flaws has an arm, and gardner can bring speed to the mix.
um… obviously it’s on the last thread but I just got up
Who the hell is going to want to work for the mets now? You can work here, but we might make you fly out to the west coast, beat one of the best teams in baseball, then fire you after 3 am EST.
i dont even think we would need to press for Ichiro, unless Melky should be moved himself.
but i sure wouldnt mind watching Ichiro in RF for the next couple years under the terms of his recent contract extention, and letting Abreu go.
could you imagine Ichiro and that short porch in RF. wowee.
I’ve got to say, I’m glad the Mets fired Willie (even though they should have done it better). Now I can go back to fully hating them.
the mets blow, who cares…
V and DLev
Agree on your points completely – the moves I suggested are simply buy more time to explore other options while not getting rid of any assets (of course, I’m not quite sure any of us define LaTroy as an asset at this point). But he will still be there to waive once Hughes comes back.
I wonder how long it will be till Omar is collecting unemployment.
hopefully guise can fill in for wang’s 4 starts before the all star break. We should assign someone to caddy for him as we did with joba and guise
“clear as mud?”
tk in dc-
no, that cleared it up .
the question for the yankees is has their coaching staff done a good job so far?
what would be the upside of shuffling the deck and adding randolph or petersen to the organization?
or the downside?
the obvious downside is both are a threat to others in the organization, but that is why i like adding them.
because of how little is known about eiland, it’s possible petersen knows twice as much as eiland. if that were the case, how do you not consider adding petersen to the organization as at least a consultant and potential future pitching coach if eiland doesn’t turn out as hoped for.
one of my criticisms of cashman is that he doesn’t get enough talented people into the organization. he seems to hire people who kiss up to him. rick petersen isn’t going to be deferential to cashman, but that’s not a bad thing because a quality organization needs creative differences to keep things fresh.
i do think the present coaching staff is incredibly low key and boring. i’m not sure if their quietness is a desire to lay in the weeds and not be exposed or that’s just their nature and they really do know something.
in contrast, we saw how bowa helped the team last year with his feistiness .
if an improvement can be made to this coaching staff, i think the yankees have to look at it.
Heck, just noticed that Chris Stewart is still on the 40 man. That’s another spot right there.
Not to mention Billy Traber.
JoeT,
Here’s Buster’s blog (free):
http://tinyurl.com/5rjo7q
And Cashman likes CHiPs
Here’s a good column on the firing:
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....ney_buster
the mets also fired Tom Nieto, the first base coach.
you know , those first base coaches can really cause a lot of problems.
Stewart would obviously be an option, but that leaves AAA short of catchers, and since Moeller is going to have to be DFA’d at some point, unless he makes it through waivers again you have to hold onto Stewart in case Posada (or Molina), gets hurt.
Traber, believe it or not, has been pitching better recently at AAA. They don’t need to hold onto him, but they’d probably like to postpone dumping him as long as possible, in case they ever decide they do want a lefty again.
the ESPN guys last nite were talking about Cashman being interested possibly in the new GM position in Seattle after his contract is up in NY.
Could this be true? All the convincing he’s had to do to stick with the program and build from within and he’d leave it to someone else and go to, of all dreadful places, Seattle?
Pete, say it isn’t so!
“I’ve got my pitchers running the bases, and one of them gets hurt. He’s going to be out. I don’t like that, and it’s about time they address it. That was a rule from the 1800s.”
Hey Hank..try 1973. Everytime this jerk opens his mouth, he embarrasses the Yankee Organization.
As for Cashman, yes, he’s doing the right think by not acting impetuously like Hank would, because there really isn’t a trade market that would be reasonable at this point in time. However, Cashman has done nothing all year, (lefty relief, defensive first base, stronger more athletic bench, experienced starter) things that he could have improved this team and could have been accomplished through free agency or reasonable trades during the Off season.
1,000 combined saves? Yeah, well, Rivera has the ones that matter
Anyway, is there a ‘fire Omar’ petition I can sign somewhere?
DLev – So I suppose that at some point the front office has to judge who is more likely to slip through waivers and not attract any other interest. Some intriguing decisions for the GM – use the 60 day with as many people as possible as long as possible, and then start getting rid of people you don’t want or figure no one else will want. And if you are wrong, just fire the manager at 3 in the morning – whoops, wrong team. Sorry.
To rephrase Ceely from the movie and book “A Color Purple”
Ain’t nothing good gonna happen for Omar Minaya until he does right by Willie. Everything he touch is gonna fail!
Thanks for the link mel
That really just could not have been handled in a worse way.. oh well, i get a new tag line
lol. Dan Patrick said Willie should just drop in on Torre while he’s out west.
DP said that Willie was born in Brooklyn, gained fame in the Bronx, and fired in Queens. Running out of buroughs. Then they said SI Yankees. Dan raved about their stadium. Said it and the view were gorgeous.
The DH rule came in 1973, the game of baseball, last I checked has been around longer. The rule of no DH if you will, has been in there since the beginning. Latham Joe, you might not like what Hank had to say, but instead of parroting what the idiots on TV and Radio say, wouldn’t it be better to learn how to comprehend what was said? The complaint Hank had was about the long established no DH rule from the beginning of baseball. It is an OLD rule that everywhere else BUT the NL has abandoned.
Its only the NL that had it that way now. The BS about the game needing more management, come on, many managers say its easier as the situation dictates itself.
Why wouldn’t you want to protect players who are the most difficult to replace? Pitchers who are effective are rare, why put them at risk for injury?
Either that or take the risk and package a bunch of good prospects for one good experienced player. Does anyone have the list of Yankees minor leaguers who will be rule 5′s next year? Who do the Yankees need to protect? Who will they have to risk letting go?
SJ44,
You are absolutely correct about Minaya. He assembled a team of aged, high-priced, injury-prone, has-beens. Then not only let’s Willie take the fall, but disrespects and embarasses him in the process.
Whats a guy to do for fun? No Willie, no Wang.
DYF,
It’s not what Hank says, it’s how he says it. We agree with it, but it’s embarrassing that a principal owner talks like a brat.
Just like the “whoever wants to put Joba in the bullpen is an idiot” comment.
Open mouth, insert foot, backtrack the next day.
We like Hank, but sometimes he’s like the kid with the mohawk and body piercing. You love him cuz he’s yours, but you’d rather he NOT dress and act like that.
http://www.petitiononline.com/.....ition.html
Fire omar Minaya, for those interested.
Some of you are too caught up in words. Who cares what Hank has to say. Its his actions (and those of Hal) that matters.
Jeff Wilpon and his dad never say a word. How are they doing today by their actions? They embarrassed themselves and their franchise. They are the laughingstock of baseball today.
Care less about words and more about actions. The actions are what impacts a ballclub. The words are meaningless.
Joel Sherman is my hero.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06.....115818.htm
“Just like the “whoever wants to put Joba in the bullpen is an idiot†comment.”
but whats wrong with that one? he’s right.
ive got no problem with Hank.
forget about the specific messages he sends out to the public… to me, its good to see the owner generally react like a normal fan would. makes me feel good about the team, and who is in control. they’re in it because they love the team and the sport, not because they want to make money.
I hate hearing Paul Byrd’s name in trade talks, We don’t need two HGH pitchers in our rotation, one of whom beat us last yr in the playoffs with his stupid windup
This latest Met’s fiasco is a perfect example of why the Met’s will always be a secondary franchise to the Yankees. Say all you want about the Yankees in general and Steinbrenners owndership over the years, but even the Yankees don’t operate like that. Willie Rnadolph was NOT the problem with the Mets. I agree with SJ that Omar is the problem.
Willie was just playing with the cards that he was dealt and actually did a pretty decent job (collapse aside). I am sure Willie will land on his feet again.
SJ44 & TurnTwo,
Please read what I said.
“We agree with it”
“We like Hank”
Yes, action is more important than words. But appearances also matter in the world of money. Except in the reality show genre where people pay you to act obnoxious like Donald Trump.
How about bringing back Ron Guidry… remember this date in 1978? It’s highlighted on this site:
http://www.cardboardgods.com/
Those were the days…..
“But appearances also matter in the world of money.”
i dont get what the overall point is here… the yankees will take a financial hit because Hank is acting obnoxiously?
Believe me, Joel Sherman is not a hero. This is the same guy who wrote one of the dumbest pieces of “journalism” I’ve read since I read a George King article when he proposed a ton of moronic trades in a blog entry.
This time, Sherman just stated the obvious. Cashman isn’t going to hit the panic button and make stupid moves as evidenced by the last 3 years.
If Sherman himself had his way, he would make the stupid moves he’s telling us Cashman isn’t going to make.
Am I the only person cringing over the mention of Paul Byrd?Byrd is IMO an over the hill pitcher who was on HGH on doctor’s order* for a tumor*. If that’s the plan then stick with the kids and let them sort it out.
randy,
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I’ve always wondered exactly how it is you know how the Yankees organization and front office functions. By that, I mean how do you know Brian Cashman doesn’t have a lot of talented individuals working the front office (from my own limited understanding, it appears he has been actively looking to bring in talent, particularly scouting talent, since he assumed direct control a few years ago), and how do you know that everyone who *is* in the Yankees front office is completely deferential to Cashman?
If there are arguments that go on in the front office, and it was widely reported that there was significant back-and-forth over the Santana trade this past off-season, I think it’s GREAT that it isn’t reported publicly. There’s no reason for baseball front offices to air their dirty laundry, and for all we know, there can be plenty of people inside the Yankee organization who disagree with Cashman on a number of issues, but voice those concerns in-house.
I guess the point I’m making is, it’s easy to sit here, on the outside, and say that Cashman does a terrible job stacking the front office with talent, or that he only brings in “yes men” (and women). We don’t know how the Yankees front office conducts day-to-day business–all we know is that they give the appearance of a single, efficient entity that stays on the same page *after* decisions have already been made, which, quite frankly, is the way organizations *should* be run.
And we don’t really know how talented those individuals in the Yankee front office are. I would be inclined to think the Yankees must be doing something right, to have such a quick turnaround in player drafting and development over the last few years: it seems that the scouts are doing their job identifying high-quality talent, and coaches are doing a good job maximizing the return on those players. You can say it’s all thanks to the money, but there are people who need to make decisions how to spend and leverage the Yankees finances, and as the Mets and Mariners can attest (or the Yankees themselves, in the case of Igawa), you need to have a very good idea of *what* you’re throwing money at, in order to form a deep and successful pool of talent to draw from.
…all that said, I would *definitely* be in favor of the Yankees adding Peterson to their payroll as a pitching consultant. Fundamentally, randy, I agree that–when possible–the Yankees *should* seek to hire the most talented front office executives and coaches that they can, and I think Peterson would qualify as such an acquisition; I just disagree that we, sitting on the outside, can make any (accurate) evaluations on how the Yankees are performing in that area.
It was only Omar’s decision?? Imagine if Brian Cashman decided to fire Girardi and a couple of his coaches… the Steinbrenners would never allow for that… shows what kind of backbone the Mets organization has
TurnTwo,
No, that’s not it at all. It’s really hard to explain (since I’m not a gazillionaire).
Rich people have always behaved badly, but you didn’t hear about it very often.
But it’s a new world where the Hiltons, Trumps, and Osbournes want that kind of attention.
It’s old money vs. new money.
I’m just really old-fashioned, so just ignore what I say.
mel, no now i understand what you mean.
i dont see Hank’s responses as “i have money, and i’m the owner so you have to listen to me.”
i see it moreso as “i’m the owner, and i’m pissed, and if you to include this quote in your paper, i dont care if people know how i really feel.”
we just kind of differ in what the point of his messages are.
I told you guys I wouldn’t trust Omar Minaya at all I always smelled rat w/ him. That’s nothing racial I’m part latino and I’ve read the writting on the wall w/ him. He is not a guy that is blameless you can even say he may have got the wheels in motion in dumping Willie. I’m not voting in that Fire Omar petition it wouldn’t be fare I’m not a Mets fan but I was cheering for Willie. Sad day and a pathetic way to do it too.
TurnTwo,
No I think he’s pissed off and he let’s it fly. I would prefer the sanitized version through Howard, but I also get irritated with Howard’s “flowery” language.
I should apply for Howard’s position. Get the point across in a pointed way, without the 13-yr. old language.
This brings us to another point. My only issue with MLB is that clown Bud Selig. But all the owners endorse him 100% and then make us all suffer by extending him until 2012?!? I know they want to protect the coffers, but it’s not like Selig will take the money with him. My point is I get sick when I hear a Steinbrenner endorse Selig, when he’s always tried to screw the Yankees.
Picking up something from way earlier today – how many times the fifth starter position comes up between now and the All Star break. I saw somewhere that it comes up 4 times.
When I look at the schedule, though – it seems that those games are this Saturday against the Reds, and then both Friday, June 27th and Saturday, June 28th against the Mets (with the Friday doubleheader they need a starter for the second game), and then Thursday July 3rd against the Red Sox. I’ve probably got that wrong – feel free to correct.
But if I have it right, then in addition to whoever starts this Saturday, by next Friday or Saturday someone else will have to start.
Not to scare anyone, but Igawa is pitching tonight in Scranton. That puts him on schedule for next Friday or Saturday.
Depressed Yankee Fan:
First of all, these are MY thoughts, not some TV sportscastrer’s rants.
My point is that Hank is blaming the fact that his pitcher’s injury was caused by “some rule from the 1800s”. Uh, running bases is part of baseball whether or not you play in a league with a DH or not. This guy (Wang) is 28 years old and he can’t run bases? How did he play baseball in Little League, or youth baseball? What happens to Wang if he gets to the World Series? Gets traded to the National League?
These guys are PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES, yeah, even American League pitchers…and should be prepared to perform ALL aspects of playing baseball.
Give me a break!
So…I’m guessing today will not be a good day to continue the “fatso and fruitloops Bronson Arroyo” drinking game
mel, to be honest, i like the regular speak from Hank… agaun, makes him more of a fan, with owner privileges.
but i do share that frustration with selig.
for some of the good things that have occurred in baseball under Bud Selig, in no way has he ever deserved a full, unanimous, ringing endorsement in any fashion, even if the owners have made money hand over fist with him in charge.
S.A.
“Mets” or “Willie” game?
probably not SA
So if these players are professional athletes, why shouldn’t we expect hitters to pitch? Why are pitchers the only players in all of MLB who are expected to be well-rounded athletes and do everything proficiently? If you are going to expect pitchers to be evaluated and perform under the same conditions as position players (e.g., field, hit, and run), then you should expect position players to be evaluated and perform under the same conditions as pitchers (e.g., take the mound every fifth day if a starter, throwing approximately one-hundred pitches anywhere from 60 to 100 MPH [with movement], or be prepared to take the mound any day in a high-leverage, late-inning situation to throw approximately twenty pitches anywhere from 60 to 100 MPH [with movement] on call if a reliever).
I mean, these position players are athletes, so they should be able to manage that okay, right?
Giese will be ready by this weekend, and I’m sure he’s ahead of Igawa. I think I’m sure. I really hope I’m sure.
Beyond that, I think Aceves pitches tonight at AA. I know he’s a long shot, but he’s had the equivalent of AAA experience in the Mexican league, and from what I’ve seen(box scores), and read in snippets, he’s pitching better and has better stuff than most of the guys mentioned ahead of him.
Billy Beane is in the Dominican Republic to scout Inoa…
This is one signing the Yankees HAVE to make, no matter what it takes. $4M is the leaked amount, but if it takes $5M or even $6M, get it done.
mel-we could have an “Willie/Mets/Omar/Wilpons/scenario/gutless” drinking game!
Though, I think my liver might cry.
Max Kellerman’s radio show is on simulcast right now on ESPN news
Billy Beane is in the Dominican Republic to scout Inoa…
Trust me we’re not letting this one go
I’m for the DH, but I like the AL. Chicken and egg kind of thing.
The question is, who likes the old rule? NL owners? NL managers? NL pitchers? Baseball purists? The commisioner? I would think that most of the fans would rather not see a pitcher hit (Colon left like a 100 men on base yesterday to end innings). And you need a masters in statistics to figure out NL boxscores.
What’s stopping them from making the leagues follow the same rules (only in baseball!)?
Maybe I’ve missed this, but who will be brought up to replace Wang? Wouldn’t it be at least a small consolation prize if Robertson or Gardner is brought up now? Of course, they’d probably call on Britton first.
Meanwhile,OT, a question: Doesn’t David Ortiz fit the calssic steroid user profiel: sudden mid-career spike in production followed by mysterious series of slow-healing injuries (including heart issue). Why haven’t we seen any exploration of this?
I like Hank Steinbrenner because he reminds me a little bit of myself. He says things when they need to be said, acts sarcastically, and doesn’t care if things are taken out of perspective. Quite frankly, nothing Hank says which the media labels reckless actually damages the team. As “The Fallen Phoenix” says above, we really don’t know what is going on inside the Yankee Organization.
You can make assessments of their ability by looking at all the moves and transactions made, but even that can be deceiving. I’m sure they had some good stuff on Pavano and weighed the pro’s + con’s, but there is a human element to this game that is unpredictable. It’s like looking at an ERA. It’s easy to say the Organization is failing when Kevin Brown bombs but his performance doesn’t necessarily reflect the analysis done given the information that was available.
I think the Yankees are doing a great job – we have a NICE farm system right now, we got A-Rod back and will have a homerun race on our hands, the team is clicking. Cashman will solve the Wang situation.
S.A.,
There’d be a lot of people on the LoHud Yankees Blog Liver Transplant list.
Wow, if Buster Olney’s blog entry is true regarding the front office undermining Willie with the players and in the papers, then good luck to the Mets finding a decent manager from the outside. It sounds like the front office ego’s couldn’t handle Willie’s honesty about the team. I’m pretty sure you’d have to be nuts to take a job with them.
Kudos to Willie dealing with this in as classy a manner as possible. I’m pretty sure that this also taught the rest of the league about Willie’s true character (as if they already didn’t know) and that will bode well for him in the future. Way to handle adversity like a true Yankee Willie!
Now I can go back to hating the Mets fully and completely. May the wheels come off that apple cart.
“The question is, who likes the old rule? NL owners? NL managers? NL pitchers? Baseball purists? The commisioner?”
Carlos Zambrano
“Why haven’t we seen any exploration of this?”
because he’s never failed a drug test, and there’s no existing evidence that would link him to any other steroids dealer, user, or drug culture in general.
Micah Owings and …. (drumroll) Bronson Arroyo!
“Meanwhile,OT, a question: Doesn’t David Ortiz fit the calssic steroid user profiel: sudden mid-career spike in production followed by mysterious series of slow-healing injuries (including heart issue). Why haven’t we seen any exploration of this?”
Because nobody wants to hear that the WS Champs’ big weapon was a roid head. I don’t know for a fact that he did roids, but he did. Baseball isn’t going to do anything, teams aren’t going to do anything, sports writers won’t do anything (because of the hate mail and hit to credibility they would get… not to mention the impossible burden of people asking to prove he did it). It doesn’t make sense for anyone to do it, that’s why. But he did.
David Ortiz has already “explained” the difference between Minny Ortiz and Big Papi.
They didn’t know what was in those DR protein shakes.
“I told you guys I wouldn’t trust Omar Minaya at all I always smelled rat w/ him. That’s nothing racial I’m part latino and I’ve read the writting on the wall w/ him. He is not a guy that is blameless you can even say he may have got the wheels in motion in dumping Willie. I’m not voting in that Fire Omar petition it wouldn’t be fare I’m not a Mets fan but I was cheering for Willie. Sad day and a pathetic way to do it too.”
Very pathetic way to do it, Brandon. No question about it. Rfelects poorly on the Mets organization. Still, he deserved be fired. What’s transpired over the last 10 months or so wasn’t all his fault, but he didn’t do a good job. Omar is now the man with his head on the chopping block.
Bill Madden Daily News pretty much says it all
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._of_w.html
So the owner’s son is in charge of the team, which is being run into the ground…To make the analogy with the Knicks complete, maybe Omar should be named manager, as the players might like.
Now, that would be interesting (lol).
“So if these players are professional athletes, why shouldn’t we expect hitters to pitch? Why are pitchers the only players in all of MLB who are expected to be well-rounded athletes and do everything proficiently?”
Have you ever played the game of baseball?
Running the bases is an essential part of baseball, whether you are a Pitcher or a “hitter’.
Your statement should be accompanied by the Theme from “Twilight Zone”!
hey I’m well on my way to that list SA/mel – count me in!!
Mets= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
“he’s pitching better and has better stuff than most of the guys mentioned ahead of him.”
He does not have better stuff. Mike Ashmore posted comments from a scout who came to a Thunder game and he noted that Aceves doesn’t have an out-pitch, really. Certainly doesn’t have better stuff than Horne. He’s got good pitchability, but he’s gotta get to AAA and show me something there before I put him in front of a guy like Giese who DESTROYED AAA despite not having amazing stuff — and who has done nothing yet to show that he doesn’t deserve a shot.
What are the chances that the Yankees look at Bedard as an option? He is less a player than Sabathia but he is a lefty, and will cost less prospects. Bedard, Pettitte, Moose, Joba, Rasner is a pretty comfortable rotation. If the idea is to get a big lefty after Pettitte leaves, Bedard may not be a bad option.
Running the bases is an essentialy part of being a position player. Position players and pitchers have entirely different roles and expectations.
Prove to me why, in the pros, a pitcher should be expected to perform a position player activity, but a position player should not be (and, indeed, is rarely, if ever) expected to perform a pitching activity. I can understand the rationale for young players, I can understand the rationale for young men to be two-way players so they can discover which line of work is best suited for them, and I do not doubt that there are an elite few who, because of their athletic prowess, can excel at position player and pitching tasks at a high level.
But when they reach pro-ball, we expect pitchers to *continue* to excel at all facets of the game, pitching-related activities and position-player activities, but we do not expect position players to do the same. Why? Can you answer that?
“These guys are PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES”
I didn’t realize that athleticism automatically made you know how to run full speed around a corner while stepping on a sack of sand without turning your ankle or taking an otherwise awkward step that could lead to injury.
How many of you people on listen to 660 am when the Mets are playing and cringe when you hear “Lets go Mets, F.. A.. N..” in the girly voice when they go to a break, after the Mets gave up like 5 runs in the inning?
“He is less a player than Sabathia but he is a lefty, and will cost less prospects.”
Why would he cost less? He’s still got another year on his contract before free agency. You have to take that into account when assessing trade value.
Also, Bedard has a worrying injury history and a chronic hip condition.
I thought we decided this was a freak injury and wasn’t anyones fault?? Its not like Wang got hurt when he tried to truck the catcher – then you could make the arguement that its not a pitchers job etc. He was jogging home and wasn’t doing anything he normally wouldnt be doing anyway
What happened to Wang was a freak injury.
It sucks, it happened and we have to move on and hope for the best from this team
No question Giese gets first shot, and I’m hopeful he can do a pretty good job, maybe until Wang gets back. I hadn’t read that comment about Aceves not having an out pitch. Interesting. I trust the Yankees to take the guy they feel will do the best job though, whether he be at NY, Scranton or Trenton, a la Wright last year.
Very pathetic way to do it, Brandon. No question about it. Rfelects poorly on the Mets organization. Still, he deserved be fired. What’s transpired over the last 10 months or so wasn’t all his fault, but he didn’t do a good job. Omar is now the man with his head on the chopping block.
Fredo I understand that but literally that was not the way to do it. They sent him out to LA to get fired, they fired him at a specific time to keep it out the NY papers, they fired him the night before the Santana start to guarantee the next manager could have an easy start. The way this was done, it was planned that simple, why would the replacements be named 2 days prior, why would Omar have gone to LA and then is on his way to D.R. btw to check on Inoa.
Too many backhanded plays and it is done w/ a purpose I guarantee you the next few days The Wilpons will be nowhere to find, where’s Omar a few days later in the Dominican Rep. on a planned scouting trip.
Anyone ever figure out what the 1st base coach did to get fired?
You don’t have to “excel” to run the bases.
National League pitchers do it every day.
As a said before, what will Wang do if he’s traded to the national laegue? Pitches in the World Series? Will he quit baseball because
he can’t perform a natural baseball functin without getting hurt??
Hitters perform “pitching” functions everyday (not every 5 days) – they throw runners out a first, they throw to cut-off men, they throw runners out at bases, they throw from home to second, etc. Do they- for the most part – have elbow and shoulder injuries?
It looks like the Jays are shopping Burnett. How do you guys feel about taking a chance on him and would the Jays consider trading within the division? The last time i believe we traded with them was for David Wells.
Still like the idea of Derik Lowe.
“No question Giese gets first shot, and I’m hopeful he can do a pretty good job”
Agreed – DLev – but my point earlier is that my reading of the schedule indicates that the Yankees will need yet another starter for Friday or Saturday of the Mets series in addition to Giese – and that is where the haunting image of Kei Igawa being called up for a spot start comes floating into my head.
Rishi he was Willie’s guy
Brandon,
Those Wilpons are pretty smart. They gave Omar the rope and he obliged them by hanging himself with it.
-They gave Omar full authority to deal with Willie how he chooses
-Omar fires Willie in the worst possible manner
-People across the nation scream out in indignation
-Olney calls them clowns
-Omar brings embarrassment to the Mets organization by butchering the firing
-Wilpons now have just cause to fire O.
Agreed Brandon. What they should have done was fire him after the collapse last year. Bringing him back and basically making him a lame duck manager from Day 1 in ’08 was a mistake.
Good news for the New York Knicks today. In terms of putrid ownership/management, they now have company in the form of the New York Mets.
Thanks – didn’t seem to make sense considering most of the questionable plays were called by the 3rd base coach and not the 1st.
“It looks like the Jays are shopping Burnett. How do you guys feel about taking a chance on him and would the Jays consider trading within the division? The last time i believe we traded with them was for David Wells.
Still like the idea of Derik Lowe.”
Two good options right there. But it becomes increasingly apparent every year that teams in the Yankees’ division will not trade with them.
Quite frankly, if a team in your division is willing to give the guy up, more likely than not there is something wrong.
Whoever takes Wang’s place, all I hope is that the offense is awake to back up whoever is pitching for us.
If it’s Igawa…the might need to take extra vitamins
I don’t get why they didn’t get rid of Alomar, wasn’t he one of Willie’s people?
Then again..I don’t get much of what the Mets do
Brandon,
I guess the only good news in the Randolph firing is it makes it much easier now not to root for the Mets. They will once again be the hated step child.
I still can’t get over the way Willie was treated.
Except that baseball is a business and many many many businesses are run this way. Things can turn on a dime depending on the whim of the ownership group or the shareholders. Two top honchos at a giant bank just got gonged because of the continuing mortgage credit crisis. They probably had very nice golden parachutes, but in a sense so does Willie. Regardless of your position, when the owners say so, you’re done and security escorts you out. You get your desk contents shipped home in a box. I hope Willie can see that he was slimed, although I’m sure he is furious right now – and he should be.
We are spoiled by whatever honor and class is left in the Yankee organization. Despite the apparent cold blooded decisions of the ownership in the last couple of years, and the continuing pop-offs by Hank, in the main they still do things right. Examples of their largesse and class are too numerous to count, from sending champagne to the visitors’ clubhouse to mark a special milestone for an opposing player, to allowing Jeff Nelson to sign a contract in spring training just so he could “retire” as a Yankee.
Torre was insulted by the lack of confidence shown to him after all his years as a winner, and perhaps rightly so. But the owners didn’t fire Joe far from home after a win. At least the Yankee ownership group had enough class to sit in a room face-to-face with Torre at the end.
Say what you will about he Yankees, but they remain a cut above, certainly above the boobs in Flushing. Flushing… ironic, no? It’s the sound their franchise is making right now.
“BIlly
June 17th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Picking up something from way earlier today – how many times the fifth starter position comes up between now and the All Star break. I saw somewhere that it comes up 4 times.
When I look at the schedule, though – it seems that those games are this Saturday against the Reds, and then both Friday, June 27th and Saturday, June 28th against the Mets (with the Friday doubleheader they need a starter for the second game), and then Thursday July 3rd against the Red Sox. I’ve probably got that wrong – feel free to correct.
But if I have it right, then in addition to whoever starts this Saturday, by next Friday or Saturday someone else will have to start.
Not to scare anyone, but Igawa is pitching tonight in Scranton. That puts him on schedule for next Friday or Saturday.”
Keep in mind Igawa had his best performance as a Yankee agains the Red Sox last year at the Stadium. Maybe they bring him up for that start? Can lightning strike twice in 2 years?
“Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I’ve always wondered exactly how it is you know how the Yankees organization and front office functions.”
fallen phoenix-
i’ve been around the game a bit in a past incarnation.
a lot of the players i knew are now mlb and milb coaches.
Latham- Im sure Wang will learn to run the bases. Thats the thing. As an AL picher, its not something he is expected to do.
Girardi should send every pitcher up there to look at 3 pitches and sit down for the rest of interleague play. We cant afford another injury from the basepaths.
“Still like the idea of Derik Lowe.”
Lowe’s ’04 postseason heroics aside, he may have been the worst starting pitcher in the AL in ’04. Led baseball in hits allowed and was in the top 3 in runs allowed. He’s a problem child and I’m not sure his game translates in the AL anymore. I’d take Arroyo before I’d take Lowe.
I don’t get why they didn’t get rid of Alomar, wasn’t he one of Willie’s people?
Sr. was a Minaya pick. And has been loved by the clubhouse almost like Manuel.
“Picking up something from way earlier today – how many times the fifth starter position comes up between now and the All Star break. I saw somewhere that it comes up 4 times.”
Replacing a fifth starter 4 times between now and the All Star break doesn’t seem too critical, but replacing Wang, who is a one or two on this Team, is much more difficult.
The Jays wouldn’t trade to the Yankees. It would demand too much if they would even get a conversation started, which I highly doubt.
On the bright side, he’ll be available for Old Timers day, a day when real fans attend.
I’m going to that game! Angels vs Yankees. Woo Hoo!
I’m not making an argument one way or the other for why Wang got hurt–I am simply responding to those who are questioning (and I think wrongly) why Wang could not “successfuly perform a rudimentary major-league task,” namely, running the bases.
I’m leaving aside the question whether Wang did, or did not, perform that task adequately, or whether he would have been injured had he not been running the bases, or whether he would have been had he been more proficient at the task. All of those questions are irrelevent for the point I’m trying to make, which is that people place unrealistic expectations on pitchers, *especially* in a league, such as the NL, which lacks a designated hitter.
The reality is, position players and pitchers perform different functions, and these functions–while both are athletically-derived–require fundamentally different skillsets. I am not saying it is impossible to be a good position player and a good hitter: there have been, and will continue to be, players who are successful two-way players, and could probably continue to be successful two-way players even into the pros. And honestly, I would love to see more players of that ilk: I think such talents should be rewarded, and would love to see the option, say, of allowing a pitcher to hit in the AL if he is talented enough to do so.
The problem is expecting *all* pitchers to be able to demonstrably perform what are position-player functions, functions which *generally* are ignored in favor of skill-specific tasks, such as throwing a baseball at a high velocity (or with a good deal of lateral and vertical movement) while maintaining the ability to perfectly place a baseball in a square a few inches wide and a few inches high, but only on the corners of that square.
Baseball does not expect position players, players who are expected to both play the field, and perform hitting duties (and this includes running the bases), to perform pitching activities. Yet all pitchers in the NL are expected to perform, in addition to their job-specific skills, to perform the role of hitting, even though the skills that make someone a good hitter are largely divorced from the skills that makes someone a good pitcher.
Throughout a player’s pro development, a player will focus on improving those skills related to their line of work: pitchers will focus on pitching and fielding, position players will focus on hitting and fielding. I do not understand why pitchers should take on the added burden of focusing on hitting (in truth, they do not), just as hitters do not take on the added burden of focusing on pitching.
Hitters, rightly so, are not expected to possess the skills necessary to be successful pro pitchers, nor are they expected to attempt to develop those skills. That pitchers are expected to possess and improve the skills necessary to be successful position players (namely, hitting and baserunning), in my mind, is patently ridiculous. Again, if a unique talent comes along who possesses the skills necessary to be an equally successful hitter *and* pitcher, and who can devote the time necessary to ensure those skills are improved such that he can perform both duties competently at the highest levels befitting of pro ball, then go ahead and adjust your expectations accordingly, allow him to hit and pitch, and reap the benefits of a player so versatile. But don’t force (and expect) everyone else, every person who is decidedly less exceptional, to attempt to fulfill that role, too; it’s simply a recipie for disaster, for all involved.
“Sr. was a Minaya pick. And has been loved by the clubhouse almost like Manuel.”
Oh. I didn’t realize that. Thanks Brandon!
“The Jays wouldn’t trade to the Yankees. It would demand too much if they would even get a conversation started, which I highly doubt.”
Wouldn’t rule it out entirely. Jays do not have a great deal of pitching riches in their minor league system and they may well match up with the Yankees. However, it’ll be pricey to get him.
Id love to see the Mets lose 7 straight games now.
I’m wondering who’s going to be called up to replace Wang on the 25 man roster. Maybe another long reliever to replace Giese’s role? Karstens or Igawa, perhaps? It would be easy since both are already on the 40 man. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t another long reliever there to protect Giese in his first start this season.
Mussina and Moyer have something else in common. Manny absolutely owns Moyer. 10 out of 50 AB were homeruns.
Good luck to the Phillies. Hope they continue to roll.
Wolf’s been pitching well lately, but let’s hope nerves get the better of him as he makes his Yankee Stadium debut.
I don’t expect a rash move from Cashman. I expect a stupid one. There is a difference.
“Wolf’s been pitching well lately, but let’s hope nerves get the better of him as he makes his Yankee Stadium debut.”
Wolf has been a big benificiary of the rather expansive Petco Field. His home/road splits tell the tale. However, the Stadium can be pretty kind to lefties.
randy,
I know that–I was more referring to whether that gives you a deep enough insight to comment on the inner-workings of the Yankee organization in particular. Perhaps you do; perhaps your sources are well-nested enough to provide you with information that I do not have access to.
I’m not trying to be belligerent, nor am I questioning the integrity of you or your sources. It was (and is) meant to be an honest question, and if you think that you *do* possess the knowledge to make the kind of specific claims you have been making, then clearly I take everything else I said concerning your evaluation of the Yankee front office back. I was mainly speaking to the fact that, as a general principle, most individuals do not possess the insight into an organization’s inner workings, nor are they privy to the decision-making processes of an organization. As a result, trying to speculate how an organization comes to the decisions that it does, as well as the specific roles different individuals play in that decision-making process (as well as how talented and how well those individuals are and perform in those roles) is *usually* an exercise in futility.
So, yeah. That’s really all I have to add to that.
Last year at Stan’s Sports they were selling Kei Igawa t-shirts for only $10.00… that’s about as close as I want to see Kei Igawa ever get to Yankee Stadium again.
“Id love to see the Mets lose 7 straight games now.”
Or blow another 7.5 game lead. But that would involve them getting 7.5 games up and I don’t want to see that happen =/
THE CURSE OF JOHAN!
So my question is how will Fatboy and fruity pebbles handle today’s show, is it most certainly beat on the Mets brass day ?
A kei Igawa shirt is worth a nickel to me.
The Mets are not cursed by Johan. They blew a sizeable lead last September without him.
Do you think Willie would take a 3rd base coach job? Wave ‘em home was an okay manager but a very good 3rd base coach. Meacham is not good at all. He’s cost us outs and runs all season. Hire Willie back! The Bronx is his real home anyway.
I would rather see Willie manning 3rd than Meacham, that would be a good upgrade.
murphydog – You make some good points.
To paraphrase Roger Angell in one of his books, there is nothing so commercially exploitative as a professional sports team. On the face of it, it is ludicrous for anyone to root for or follow a team. Yet, we do. And I think part of that relates to a sense of pride, or feeling good, that we get when we root for them.
The Yankees are far from perfect. Yet, now and then, they do something that makes me pause and say to myself, that was nice. Whether it’s honoring a player on another team (remember when they sent something to Jon Lester, when he came back from cancer, I think, but the details are less important), or what you described for Jeff Nelson. The biggest thing, I think, was that $1M donation to Virginia Tech, and playing that exhibition game with them. Like Pete said at the time, that was a very good thing. I can’t believe that no other team even donated a penny (if what I read was true). Yeah, the way they ended things with Joe Torre could have been handled better, but at least they did it face-to-face, in mid-afternoon, with the owners and front office people there.
Thank goodness I don’t root for the Mets, because today (or was it last night?) was nothing to be proud of.
I would be down for hiring Willie at some level. He is a great guy and has very good baseball knowledge. Mets fans forget that Willie had them one hit away from the World Series 2 years ago.
REPEAT: NO IGAWA. NO IGAWA. NO IGAWA
“Do you think Willie would take a 3rd base coach job? Wave ‘em home was an okay manager but a very good 3rd base coach. Meacham is not good at all. He’s cost us outs and runs all season. Hire Willie back! The Bronx is his real home anyway.”
Probably a better chance he winds up in the YES booth or on BBTN every so often on ESPN. Willie’s not a complete victim here. His firing was handled about as poorly as it could have been, but he was deservedly let go. He could probably use some time away from the game to regroup. A little TV is a nice low stress way of staying involved.
Do you think Willie would take a 3rd base coach job? Wave ‘em home was an okay manager but a very good 3rd base coach. Meacham is not good at all. He’s cost us outs and runs all season. Hire Willie back! The Bronx is his real home anyway.
That’s a demotion and even if so Willie wasn’t great at that 3B coach thing either. I think people need to calm down and give Meech a shot, he hasn’t done that badly.
Why not try to package Igawa plus a couple of other prospects like Chase Wright and Aceves/Marquez for Wolfe? SD has been after Igawa since last season. Let them have him now, and eat the 25 million before his stock falls even more.
If not, I say give Wright or Aceves a shot at starting after Giese gives it a go. The only other option out there that I think could be had for very little is Meche. He is making a ton of money that KC probably wants to dump by the trading deadine.
While I didn’t like how the Yankees handled things with Torre, at least it gave him the choice. Willie was on thin ice with the colapse of last year, why not end it at that point? The reasons were there enough to justify it, even though it was the players who dried up.
To do this in this manner isn’t quite so bad for Randolph though. He gets a lot of sympathy from all this, so he might end up in a better position.
I don’t think it will be all that long till Omar is sent packing. The only thing that saved him this long is Santana, and there are questions on how well that move was given his performance so far.
“So my question is how will Fatboy and fruity pebbles handle today’s show, is it most certainly beat on the Mets brass day?”
Today is gonna be must listen from them.
I think they will probably rip the Wilpons/Omar a few new holes.
If he gets a job with YES or ESPN then he will still get to fleece the Mets for what they owe him. That isn’t a bad deal.
Willie’s going to have to take a demotion if he wants to come back to be a manager someday. He had trouble breaking in as a manager and is a notoriously bad interview. Brewers passed up on him once because of it.
Guys like Bowa or Tony Pena did it. So has Lee Mazilli. Willie will need to as well.
Joe from Long Island:
You raised a great point. The VT episode was classic Steinbrenner… reacting straight from the gut. “We’ve got to do something!”
Willie will be alright. I think he’s got a lot to learn about managing, or at the very least, a lot to learn about picking future employers. He’s young and that $5 million payday as Met manager will let him coast a little without having to take the first thing that comes along. He should lay low for awhile and just be with his family, maybe do an occasional TV baseball gig.
Torre had to take his lumps a few times before he went from Clueless Joe to Saint Joe; Willie is still paying his dues. And I’d bet my bottom dollar Torre has already spoken with Willie to remind him that it don’t come easy.
“His firing was handled about as poorly as it could have been, but he was deservedly let go.”
He wasn’t deservedly let go. He’s had winning seasons every year he’s been the manager.
Even this year if Wagner doesn’t blow those saves the last week and a half the Mets have a winning record.
I just don’t see where he deserved to be fired. Especially after the Art Howe era they endured before Willie was brought on.
I’m confused by the comments about hiring Randolph to stick it to the Mets. Mets fans might care, but the Mets’ management certainly would not. After all, they think Randolph deserved to be fired in a humiliating fashion. They would probably be happy if the Yankees hired him.
i said this in the last thread, but if not 3B coach, just hire him as Cano’s new Bowa…
No team is going to hire Willie mid-season.
And Willie wouldn’t undermine any existing staff.
I think he was deservedly let go. They choked in PS two years ago, blew a huge lead last year, and are underperforming this year.
You can argue the Mets front office did him dirty, same with guys like Reyes and Delgado, but a change may have been in order.
As the saying goes, you cant fire all 25 guys on the roster, but you can fire the one manager.
The Mets aren’t going to get to the Post Season this year. They will soon see that the team just isn’t very good and that is on the GM. Omar, better get your resume’ put together, soon you will be lookin’ for a job.
“His firing was handled about as poorly as it could have been, but he was deservedly let go.â€
He didnt deserve to be go. The Mets suck, that’s the bottom line. Wagner sucks, Delgado sucks, Alou never plays, Wright isn’t being clutch, Santana’s already at what, 12 homers? They aren’t good.
It pisses me off that Cashman isnt even going to explore options. I guarantee we get someone like Wolfe and STILL give up someone like AJax. Bullshit when we could have Sabathia for
I’d be more upset if he didn’t stay within the organization before looking outside. Isn’t that why we have a farm system?
I wouldn’t want Willie back in the Bronx. He had some negative things to say about the Yankees. I don’t like that he plays the race card either. With all of that he didn’t deserve to be fired the way he was. Downright bush league.
At least they got Santana. That made them the favorites to win outright this year. Right?
test test
“I don’t think it will be all that long till Omar is sent packing. The only thing that saved him this long is Santana, and there are questions on how well that move was given his performance so far.”
Santana has been one of the 5 best pitchers in the NL. He’s probably pitched better than his 7-4 record (2.93 ERA in his 4 losses, 1.44 ERA in his three no decisions). Omar won’t get heat over that. It’s the Delgado, Castillo and Pedro tings that’ll kill him.
Willie burned too many bridges. I wouldn’t want him back. He played the race card about the Yankees after he left. Still he didn’t deserve to be fired the way he was.
Cashman needs to stay in the organization and not go off half cocked to get a pitcher. That’s why you have a farm system.
“He didnt deserve to be go. The Mets suck, that’s the bottom line. Wagner sucks, Delgado sucks, Alou never plays, Wright isn’t being clutch, Santana’s already at what, 12 homers? They aren’t good.”
He did deserve to go. Should have never made it to April. Along with the players’ testicular fortitude, Willie’s leadership disappeared last September as well. He did a bad job, plain and simple.
Cashman needs to stay in the organization and not go off half crocked to get a pitcher. That’s why you have a farm system.
“He wasn’t deservedly let go. He’s had winning seasons every year he’s been the manager.
Even this year if Wagner doesn’t blow those saves the last week and a half the Mets have a winning record.
I just don’t see where he deserved to be fired. Especially after the Art Howe era they endured before Willie was brought on.”
Teams gone nowhere but backwards since Molina’s homer in 10/06. Willie was at the helm for what is likely the greatest September collapse in the history of the sport. It’s not a great team and they underachieved. But they didn’t have a great manager either.
I know that–I was more referring to whether that gives you a deep enough insight to comment on the inner-workings of the Yankee organization in particular.-
fallen phoenix-
the way to tell if my insight is deep enough is how often i’m right or wrong.
i’ve bought apple stock low 4-5 times in the last few years and sold high every time. i’m not an apple expert, and i have no connections with the inner workings of the company, but i can tell enough about them from what resources i have to tell they are a well run company.
we all make judgements based on the resources we have.
“Willie’s leadership disappeared last September as well. He did a bad job, plain and simple.”
Now I feel guilty for how much I enjoyed watching the mets lose game after game, series after series last year.
i have to agree w/ Fredo. Lose one or two games and you can blame it on chance or on the players. But if you lose so many at the end of the year in a row and you get booted out of the playoffs? The manager had to pay.
It should be fun to watch how Tony Bernazard manuevers himself into Omar’s job now – - – Watch out Senor Minaya!!!
“aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand good aftahnoon everybody”
and away we go
m+md… here we go lol
Fredo I don’t get why he was deserved of being fired maybe you can help me here
A) Was it his fault he couldn’t pencil in Moises Alou in his lineup card
B) Is it his fault Maine and Perez can’t get past the 5th
C) Is it his fault his CL can’t get the big save
D) Is it his fault Heilman bombed out
E) Is it his fault Jose Reyes has under-performed
F) His original # 4 hitter is at his last leg
G) His 2B lost range and can’t stay consistant
H) Other than Santana what has his GM given him ?
I) Oh and don’t get me started on the Ryan Church decision
So yes if you believe all that Willie deserved to be fired, I on the other hand wouldn’t have handle that situation like this.
“Teams gone nowhere but backwards since Molina’s homer in 10/06. Willie was at the helm for what is likely the greatest September collapse in the history of the sport. It’s not a great team and they underachieved. But they didn’t have a great manager either.”
I’m of the belief that sometimes player’s have to be held accountable for the team. Was Willie making bad decisions every game that lead to them losing last year in September?
This year is not over so who knows how the season would have ended for the Mets.
So in year 1 the team turns completely around with Willie as the manager, in year 2 they nearly make the WS and then he’s not given any leeway after year 3? If they were going to fire him they should have done so after last year if they felt the September collapse was Willie’s fault.
Doesn’t make sense to me.
Sidney Ponson anyone?
Brandon:
Lot of circumstances worked against him, I’d grant you that. But he didn’t manage well. And he does take the blame for last September. If they are good enough to have a 7 game lead into the middle of September then they were good enough to bring it home. A lot of that is on him. It was a situation that called for leadership, leadership which he was unable to provide.
Joe Torre doesn’t blow that 7 game lead. Lou Piniella doesn’t either. Francona, Scoscia…none of them do either. Gene Muach doesn’t…well, OK maybe he does. (:
SJ44 would sign Paul Byrd tomorrow? Wow. A guy in his age 37 year who’s the bad/unlucky version of Mike Mussina ’08. Strikes out about 3 per 9 IP. Allows over a hit an inning. And is compiling a lovely 87 ERA+. I mean, my goodness. He’s had one nice start since 5/21.
That’s not something the rotation needs. I can understand if a guy with a sub 4.00 ERA comes along at a reasonable price.
But if you don’t think you can scratch together at least an 87 ERA+ with the options you have now, while learning a little something about these guys, that reflects really poorly on the MiLB system.
ANYONE that thinks that Igawa should EVER pitch again for the MLB Yankees is a complete dolt. How many times does that slug need to show you all that he is at BEST a good AAA pitcher with NO ABILITY to get MLB Hitters out for even the shortest of starts ? I swear, you’d think some Yankee fans can’t remember past 5 minutes ago !
“If they were going to fire him they should have done so after last year if they felt the September collapse was Willie’s fault.”
Amen brother! That’s exactly what they should have done.
In the abstract, yes, I agree. As for specifics: for example, to say that Brian Cashman has not populated the Yankees front office with ANYONE who disputes his opinion?
That kind of analysis cannot be determined by evaluating what actions an organization has taken, but is the kind of analysis that requires an inner-look in an organization’s decision-making process. That’s kind of my point. We can make guesses, sure, but we have no real way of confirming whether they’re on or off the mark.
Fredo:
Managers don’t blow leads. In the case of last year, not even players really blow leads. Luck and math blow leads. Whether Willie was defensive or fiery or shrewd didn’t really matter. They got some horrendous pitching out of Oliver Perez. Jose Reyes stopped hitting. And the bullpen was bad.
Willie Randolph exerted no influence on those three factors. He also didn’t help the Phillies win ballgames.
Tell em like it is DJ – he is on M+MD right now (BTW)
“Willie Randolph exerted no influence on those three factors. He also didn’t help the Phillies win ballgames.”
Then he apparently exerted no influence on a 95 win season a year earlier, eh? Can’t have it both ways, John. Your logic begs the question “Why have a manger at all?”
manger = manager
The point I’m making is this: you can certainly judge with the resources available to anyone outside of the Yankee organization whether the Yankees’ organizational decisions have led to good or bad outcomes. You cannot necessarily judge with the resources available to anyone outside of the Yankee organization whether the decision-making process that leads to those decisions is sound, what that decision-making process looks like, or judgments on specific individuals who are involved in that decision-making process.
You can make inferences about a decision-making process based on outcomes; for example, if an organization has a long history of bad outcomes, you can reasonably conclude the decision-making process is at some level faulty, and you might infer that it is a problem with scouting, talent evaluation, development, what-have-you. You might not be able to accurately pinpoint what area is a problem, or even whether specific individuals are problems: but you would, certainly, be able to identify a problem.
I guess the big question is this: in concluding that Brian Cashman does not stock the organization with anyone who could potentially challenge his decisions or viewpoints (which is your major claim), what information do you use to back that reasoning?
The Mets had a team that was perceived to be better than it was. The newspapers enjoy making a rivalry out of the two New York teams.
The truth is that the Mets had a totally pedestrian rotation. The names were bigger than the whole.
1) Miraculous production out of Moises Alou in his age 40 year.
2) Miraculous production out of Ramon Castro.
3) General perception that Jose Reyes is better than he is (still pretty damn good).
4) Pedro in his age 35 year and Glavine and El Duque in their age 41 years. How Minaya could have expected two of those three guys to contribute at a high level this year is beyond me.
5) Overvalued Carlos Delgado. After hitting to a 103 OPS+, it should have been no secret that an oddly slimmed 36 yr-old Delgado is at the end of his rope.
6) Overrated Carlos Beltran. Plays CF beautifully, but really doesn’t get on base as he should. Odd in the sense that a lot of his value is tied into his SLG.
7) Overrated Aaron Heilman. Among others. Including Joe Smith.
Like DJ says, get over yourself and just get the job done. Accept the fact that there won’t be a trade. DJ didn’t say that. Cashman did.
Field managers are highly overrated. That’s why Fredo. I don’t think HE got them 95 wins in 2006. Here’s what did.
1) Bullpen. The bullpen did a tremendous job behind a pedestrian starting rotation. The warning signs should have been there: Trachsel, Pedro and Perez were eminently forgettable.
2) A career year for Carlos Beltran. One that he will never replicate.
3) Above average for Paul Lo Duca out of the catcher’s spot. Really his career year outside of 2001, and an aberration for that reason.
4) Luck. Their run differential suggests a record of 91-71.
Minaya didn’t learn from the example of the Yankees. He had a pedestrian rotation. Got lucky with the bullpen in the same way that Williams and Guillen did in Chicago in 2005. And he got career, or outlier, years from major offensive cogs.
He built an old team with a few young guys and everyone bought it as a young team.
The rotation is not improved (unless Perez is pitching hurt, as he may have in Pittsburgh).
He won the Santana lottery and people thought that it plugged every hole on a team that was two years older than the team that overperformed wildly in 2006.
“Field managers are highly overrated.”
Agree 100%, John. But you know the game. When things go bad, it’s usually them who are asked to leave.
“I guess the big question is this: in concluding that Brian Cashman does not stock the organization with anyone who could potentially challenge his decisions or viewpoints (which is your major claim), what information do you use to back that reasoning?”
listen to long , thompson, or eiland talk sometime. you think they challenge anyone?
i keep calling them the bob newhart clones.
i don’t see anyone like antonetti at cleveland working under cashman. i don’t see anyone like josh byrnes working for cashman like byrnes did for theo.
do you see any personality like a bowa or a zimmer in the present coaches who would stand up to cashman or steinbrenner?
i see a bunch of yes men. that’s my reasoning.
if you’re saying they’re not , what’s your reasoning?
I see a bunch of men who, after a decision has been made, stick by it and don’t indicate otherwise to the media. Whatever goes on behind closed doors, stays behind closed doors, and that’s how an organization should be run.
Kim Ng worked beneath Cashman for many years, and–while she’s now in L.A.–she’s always one of the names floated for an open General Manager’s position. In a male-dominated industry such as baseball, I think that speaks volumes.
I’ll admit the Yankees don’t seemingly have very many hot-shot rising stars in the organization. That doesn’t speak to a person’s qualifications or talents, however. I know more than a few top-flight professors up in the northeast who lack a national profile, but are highly qualified and very good at what they do; just because they’re not household names, does not mean they’re not as successful as those who are.
Brian Cashman also leans rather heavily on Stick Michael, and I’m *sure* Michael is never afraid to speak his mind to Cashman. As a matter of fact, rumor has it Michael was one of the loud voices on the other side of the Santana table. What more can you ask for from advisors, or people outside of the GM position? Someone is ultimately responsible for making decisions, and after a decision was made, the entire Yankees organization stood by it. That’s smart business, and the right thing to do.
As for a personality who would stand up to Cashman or the Steinbrenners who is on the coaching staff, I see Joe Girardi, who was Cashman’s own choice for General Manager.
At the end of the day, judging the internal decision-making process of an organization, and trying to conclude who “stands up to Cashman” and who doesn’t, cannot be done using media reports, or seeing how they conduct themselves in public interviews. We don’t normally know who falls on what side of organizational debates, and a good organization will never make that information public, nor will that organization leak information after a decision has been made in order to undermine previous decisions.
We just need to look cross-town, at Queens, to see what kind of results that can have for an organization.
fallen phoenix-
appreciate your well thought out point of view.
ultimately it gets down to how organizations perform to judge those in charge.
you don’t let your main rival win two world championships in four years and react by just adding latroy hawkins if you are a dynamic organization.
i guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
You too, randy–I really appreciated having this discussion.
I think the barometer for a dynamic organization goes further than what moves are made in a relatively weak free agent class, and ability (or inability) to swing a major trade over the off-season. But, again, we’ll agree to disagree, and I certainly don’t think your perspective is a fundamentally invalid one, it’s just one I dispute.
The beauty of baseball is that there aren’t always clear-cut answers to these questions, and you can spend endless time going back-and-forth with very intelligent points. It’s certainly a far more rewarding activity than shouting profanities at each other, or witnessing the sorry excrement show that can be sports radio (to provide one of many examples).
It seems to me Boston has a much deeper front-office. They have brought in a lot of young talent to back up Theo. Simetimes, Cashman seems to be overmatched, missing opportunities perhaps because he does not have enough help.
Also,much as I applaud his commitment to player development, can Cashman be forgiven for this horrible bench — for three years now they have skimped on the bench, paying short money for sub-average players. Gardner, the one option who could instantly improve the bench, remains stranded in Pennsylvania.