Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 18, 2008 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
The Yankees rolled on, defrocking the Padres last night. Brian Heyman has the story.
Chien-Ming Wang was able to laugh a little through the pain. This notebook also has updates on Dan Giese, Billy Traber, Ian Kennedy and Brian Bruney.
The Yankees threw their support to Willie Randolph. Brian also has that story.
Omar Minaya tried to explain why he fired Randolph. John Delcos has that story from California.
Columnist Sam Borden spoke to Randolph’s mom about how her son was treated. Terrific piece here.
A few LoHud.com readers (and they’re our folks, I believe) told stories of their unpleasant ousters. Interesting idea for a story by Julie Ganz and Rachel Stern.
Mets fans think Willie got a raw deal. Jared Diamond has that story.
The All-Star Game FanFest sounds like a good time. Harold Gutman has the details.
Lots of baseball coverage there. That should get you through lunch, slackers.
Padres-Yanks tonight. Check back later for the lineup.
Jon Stewart skewers the Mets
http://tinyurl.com/6hmlrf
Not enough to tide me over until lunch. MORE. MOOORE! I DEMAND MOOOOORE!
NY Post rakes the Mets
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06182008/frontback.htm
nothing like a little 5 game winning streak to get the feel-good emotions flowing in Yankeeland.
From an NYTimes article:
“Managers are hired to be fired. But there is a tasteful way to do everything. The Mets yearn to be respected the way the Yankees are, but they continue to conduct the most public aspect of their business like minor leaguers. Once again, the franchise is the object of national derision. “
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/Klapisch_.html
How is he supposed to win when he has players like that. I have my thoughts on who it was. Delgado anyone?
Wow jennifer, that is absurd. Willie should have benched said player immediately after that incident.
Isn’t that insane! And of course he had no backing of management to speak to them about that. I mean WOW! Thats how you talk back to your manager!
Can anyone answer a question for me? I ordered a ticket to the allstar game through stubhub back in February. Still haven’t gotten it, though the shipping date is in July. Should I be nervous?
could be wanger.
I love how the Mets fire their manager and continue losing, proving what we all knew which was he was not the problem. Gotta love it!
jennifer-that is just absurd! I bet it was Delgado or maybe Beltran?
That team is a soap opera
I don’t think it was Wagner. Wagner was doing well in early May, Delgado was not.
I said to my co-worker, well you Met fans wanted the backpages of the paper, today you got both the back page and front page.
“Lots of baseball coverage there. That should get you through lunch, slackers.”
So.. I am not the only one
Big game for the Yank’s tonight.
Peavy is no push over.
no doubt in my mind that it was Delgado… if you think of the veterans on that team, he seems to stick out like a sore thumb as having attitude issues.
Willie, according to people who know the structure of that organization, was constantly undermined by other Mets officials, who would constantly talk to players about their feelings regarding the manager, and its a serious issue when a manager cannot depend on upper management to have his back with stuff like this.
i know Willie wanted to make it work, and wanted to win in NY, but he’ll be better off getting as far away from that team as possible, and starting fresh somewhere else when that opportunity comes.
“I love how the Mets fire their manager and continue losing, proving what we all knew which was he was not the problem. Gotta love it!”
It’s fun to hate the Mets. But they’ve played 1 game since he got fired. 1 game.
McLaren might be the next manager to go. You have to wonder if the Mariners might think about picking up Willie. I think he might have some sucess there and his personality seems like one that would fit in well there.
raymagnetic, that lost game was with the great Santana pitching, though. Yes, its largely symbolic, but still…
And everyone was saying that Santana was going to get 24 wins this year. Don’t think its quite working to plan.
Spitzer-
Maybe, but if I’m Willie I want a break from all this for awhile.
He’s been under a microscope for months now, and he would be again if we went to another team so soon.
That’s got to be so stressful, I wouldn’t blame him if he just hid out for the rest of the season.
Wow, there’s no way I’m reading all of that AND all of these DOE documents today… gotta be one or t’other… which to choose…
Spitzer,
I’m sorry but there’s nothing symbolic about them losing the first game after Willie was fired.
One game is just one game.
“You have to wonder if the Mariners might think about picking up Willie. I think he might have some sucess there and his personality seems like one that would fit in well there.”
Doubt it. M’s are a bad gig right now. Terrible roster and an organization that right now is in flux. They may be blowing the whole thing up out there and starting over. Just not a good gig.
I think it’s a good idea for him to get away from the game for awhile and just do some TV til atleast this offseason. That’ll keep him involved in the game in a lighter manner and give him to regroup, think about his tenure with the Mets and what he might change about his approach for the next gig (I do believe there will be one). Let’s remember, Willie is not blameless in the Mets underachieving ways the past 150 games or so. The WAY the fired him was absolutely putrid, but I don’t blame them a bit for letting him go.
I’d guess Omar is next on the chopping block and I’d bet Willie is a manager again before Omar is a GM.
An interesting tidbit from Sam Bordens article:
Brett Gardner’s Dad is a long-time neighbor of Willie Randolph’s Mom.
Small world.
The only reason why I think he could possibly take that job would be because expectations would be very low. They aren’t taking the division this year. I can see your point about him wanting time off, but look at how things have worked for Torre. While that was all going on in the off season, which helps, going there earlier to get away from NYC might be a good move.
It would also send a message back to the Mets by him getting that gig so soon. If he does well enough there to start getting them back on track it will really show where the problems are with the Mets… their FO and clubhouse.
Not to get all negative on the Yankees as they play well…
But did anyone else notice that Melky is hitting .095 over his last 6 games? Yikes.
Fredo,
I hope the M’s blow up their team and trade us Erik Bedard, Felix Hernandez and Ichiro for peanuts. Heres to dreaming!
I’ve never actively rooted against the Mets, but I am now.
Raymagnetic, not saying that the team did it on purpose or anything. The loss is symbolic of how their whole season has been looking so far. Keeping up those same ways is symbolic of the state of that club and its players.
Unless you think that firing Willie is going to magically turn things around in that club. I don’t.
Has anyone noticed how all the previous Yankee coaches that have become managers in recent years have failed utterly? Lee Mazilli, Willie Randolph, Joe Girardi (did well but was fired after a year).
If i’m willie, I hang out and do nothing or work for free until the end of my contract with the Mets so they are forced to pay it
Good stuff Pete. Where’s the rest??
Good Mornnig.
V- likewise. For those scoring at home, the AL was 12-2 vs. the NL last night.
Have a good day.
-dennis
With that $2 mil paycheck for the next two years, how can you not enjoy yourself? Christ, I wish I could get fired like that.
“You’re fired! And here’s $4.25 million dollars for the next two years!!” I am in the wrong job…
dennis,
Do you know what the record of the AL East vs interleague opponents this year is? I don’t know what it is but it seems like the AL East has been destroying the NL thus far.
“But did anyone else notice that Melky is hitting .095 over his last 6 games? Yikes.”
He’s been an offensive black hole for almost two months now. It’s a problem…
Patrick..
Here go man, AL East- 22 NL-13
Bos- 6-2
TB- 4-3
NY- 4-2
Balt-5-2
Tor – 3-4
-dennis
Well there is a misconception about what time he got fired. 11 pm LA time was when they fired him IDK why the NY media keeps saying 3 A.M. in the morning I’d be pissed about that if I were a Mets fan.
Jerry Manuel did a good job handling Reyes yesterday, literally Reyes was acting like a baby and Jerry didn’t think no BS to think whether it was Randolph or Manuel they have had to babysit Jose Reyes, I can see why Cliff Floyd was so important on that team he led that locker room, now it’s no one. I’m not going to cheer against Jerry Manuel no one deserves that. Omar Minaya, Tony Bernazzard and the Wilpons on the other hand can go straight to you know where.
If the Yanks really do go through the Scranton rotation searching for a Wang fix, who do they call up first? Does anyone know the pecking order? I know the 40 man limits their options (neither Horne nor McCutchen are on it, while *Igawa, *Karstens, Marquez, White and **Wright are) and they have the DL (Brackman, Bruney, Pavano, and Sanchez) to work with, but would that mean White gets first look over Horne even tho Horne is a higher rated prospect? They could move Wang to the 60 day… DFA Hawkins…??
* already known to be craptastic
** injured
Brandon.
Great point about not cheering against Manuel. I just do not want the Mets to turn it around to make the firing seem like a justifiable move as Minaya created an old, slow team that Randolph took the bullet for. As I posted yesterday during the press conference Minaya sounded like Big Brown’s trainer after the Belmont.
“He’s been an offensive black hole for almost two months now. It’s a problem…”
its only a problem if he’s depended upon to produce. as long as the lineup at the top is driving in runs, i have no issue with keeping Melky in the everyday lineup to hold down teh fort in CF.
Melky is suffering from Springtime-Cano syndrome
Dennis it doesn’t matter what they do after this, it’s never going to be a justifiable move. Even if they make the playoffs they disgraced that franchise w/ the way they handled the situation, tell me how many employers wait for thier employees to make an out of town trip, follow them then surprise…. fire them.
It’s never going to be a class act after that. It was as petty a move as could be. The blue print on how not to handle a situtation. And now what pisses me off is how Omar Minaya is ruining it for future latino GMs or scouts that might aspire to be GMs in NY and in baseball.
“But did anyone else notice that Melky is hitting .095 over his last 6 games? Yikes.â€
His OPS since May 1 is .584. He’s not a very good hitter. Fortunately, the Yanks don’t need him to be a good hitter.
“its only a problem if he’s depended upon to produce. as long as the lineup at the top is driving in runs, i have no issue with keeping Melky in the everyday lineup to hold down teh fort in CF.”
It doesn’t matter. He’s below league average at his position in offensive production, well below in May and June. Really good teams get contributions from everyone. We get nothing from Melky right now, and it’s a problem. He doesn’t get on base, and he doesn’t slug much at all…His range is fine, his arm is great…but if you don’t play D like Mike Cameron or Torii in his prime, you can’t have an OBP near .300 and slug less than .400
This is the 2% Melk. If it gets worse, it’ll become the 1% Melk or even the Fat Free Melk.
Hopefully, in another month or two – it should be back up to the Whole Melk.
Fredo,
Yeah I think Melky is destined to be a fourth outfielder. The only thing that is frustrating is he goes on streaks where he is an outstanding hitter. If only he could be more consistent and continue that great hitting for more than a month at a time. He’s still young, perhaps in the future he will become more consistent.
“His OPS since May 1 is .584. He’s not a very good hitter. Fortunately, the Yanks don’t need him to be a good hitter.”
They need him to be tolerable. His D is not so great that a bat that flaccid is tolerable.
I didn’t know Melky was hitting .095 w/ that stat he’s proving that he may be a 4 OF and can’t take the day to day play while staying consistantly productive. Some people have the body to play day to day I don’t think Melky can.
“And now what pisses me off is how Omar Minaya is ruining it for future latino GMs or scouts that might aspire to be GMs in NY and in baseball.”
I think there’s a “man behind the curtain” in all this. Omar is front and center of course, but the Wilpon family statement trying to distance themselves from this fiasco is pure bullshyte.
I would assume other organizations can see thru all this and not hold it against other prospective latino GM’s
Brandon. I could not agree more. I posted a few weeks ago that I was ticked that Seattle fired their hitting coach in Toronto the with two games left in a long road trip. He then had to fly back to Seattle when the team could have waited two days. What the Mets did was far worse.
-dennis
“He’s below league average at his position in offensive production, well below in May and June. Really good teams get contributions from everyone. We get nothing from Melky right now, and it’s a problem.”
ok, so then whats the solution?
ok, so then whats the solution?
Future platooning in his future
Well, I don’t think the Yanks would promote Gardner to “motivate” Skim Melky right now because it would require a roster move and with the pitching shortage already in full swing, they have bigger fish to fry. Neither Horne nor McCutchen are on the 40 man either and if the Yanks want to see what they can do as well, they’d have to do some serious fanagling of the 40 man.
“Future platooning in his future”
even if thats a long term solution, what do you propose now? is there a better option than having Melky play every day right now?
Although Cashman said they will have three catchers for some time, at some point you have to seriously consider Christian or Garnder from SWB. If one thinks Garnder is ready, then a platoon with melky would work. If one wants Gardner to develop a bit more in AAA then go with Christian who has been tearing it up recently at SWB is up to almost 300 and is as fast as Gardner with a tremendous SB success rate.
“even if thats a long term solution, what do you propose now? is there a better option than having Melky play every day right now?”
Platoon him with Gardner. See if Gardner can give us more offensively and maybe he can push Melky to perform better.
even if thats a long term solution, what do you propose now? is there a better option than having Melky play every day right now?
I think Melky gets worn down by the workload, he starts off hot than simmers down until he gets behind league average. It’s a big reason why I thought he will not be a franchise CF, you just look at Austin Jackson in Trenton he gets better as the season wears on. Gardner same story. I’m not dealing Melky nor is he an untouchable but they need to get him his rest otherwise his play will not reflect what he is.
“Platoon him with Gardner. See if Gardner can give us more offensively and maybe he can push Melky to perform better.”
Cashman has already said unless he’s guaranteed regular playing ABs, they arent possibly stunting his development by calling up Gardner to platoon or pinch run/hit off the bench.
Christian is a guy that may make some sense, bc i dont think they view him as the same type of prospect… but as SJ44 pointed out the other day to me, he also is not on teh 40 man roster, so id rule that out for now, too.
On the list of Yankees problems I’m pretty sure Melky is towards the bottom of Brian Cashman’s list.
“I think Melky gets worn down by the workload, he starts off hot than simmers down until he gets behind league average.”
Except last year, when he started slow (due to sporadic playing time?), then was good for several months, and then wore down in september. This year he had a great month and has been awful since.
They could always just rest Melky and play Damon (with his noodle arm) in CF and Matsui in Left every couple of days.
I’m sure Pete has already sung A-Rod’s praises, but check out his line since coming back (May 20):
.367/.467/.735, 9 HR, 5 SB.
Monster.
This guy comes back after missing 3 weeks and almost immediately goes on a tear. I don’t even want to imagine how our season would look if he was doing this elsewhere.
“Cashman has already said unless he’s guaranteed regular playing ABs, they arent possibly stunting his development by calling up Gardner to platoon or pinch run/hit off the bench.”
I don’t believe he mentioned platooning as a non-option. Being half of a platoon is getting regular at-bats in my opinion. Christian is a possibility I guess, if only to give Melky time off. I’d much rather give Gardner some ML time if only to increase his trade value.
“On the list of Yankees problems I’m pretty sure Melky is towards the bottom of Brian Cashman’s list.”
True but if there is an option to upgrade the team it has to be considered.
“On the list of Yankees problems I’m pretty sure Melky is towards the bottom of Brian Cashman’s list.”
completely agree.
I would like to imagine our season if he’d been healthy all spring…
True but if there is an option to upgrade the team it has to be considered.
There’s always everyone’s hero from 2005 – Nick Green waiting in the wings at Scranton…
There’s always everyone’s hero from 2005 – Nick Green waiting in the wings at Scranton…
I can’t stand him or Cody
How about looking at a bigger sample size than 6 games. Melky has a .271 BA for the month of June.
LOL -
“On the list of Yankees problems I’m pretty sure Melky is towards the bottom of Brian Cashman’s list.â€
completely agree.
Totally agreed. I think as long as they have an average glove and above average arm in CF, his offensive issues are low on the ‘to-do list’.
Regarding the Melky/bring up Gardner issue –
Gardner is not on the 40 man roster. And given Cashman’s desire to fix the missing starter problem “internally”, he means to bring up AAA starters – (of which Horne and McCutchen are not on the 40) so if he want’s to try those two, roster moves have to be made – on top of – bringing up Gardner to “fix” Melky’s noodle bat. Like Ray said, I think it’s a really low priority right now.
So Johan faced a legit offense last night, and in pressure, I mean it doesn’t get more pressured than what is going on over there.
Test #1 establish your presence
Btw, I think after yesterday, the WPA for our bats (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/teams/) is a positive number for the first time in weeks.
“True but if there is an option to upgrade the team it has to be considered.”
Except we do not know if any of the options in Scranton are actually an upgrade.
I’ve never seen Gardner play, SJ44 seems to think that Melky is a better CF than Gardner.
We don’t know what Gardner would hit if he came up to the bigs. Right now Melky is at least a known commodity. He’s not killing the team, he’s the #9 hitter after all.
I just don’t think Melky is a priority to Cashman right now.
Test #2 Stop the bleeding
Test #3 Control the game tempo
“How about looking at a bigger sample size than 6 games. Melky has a .271 BA for the month of June.”
No he doesn’t. He has a .220 average with a .292 OBP. At least, according to http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....statType=1
Pat, where did you get that number?
Bbref has him at .220/.292/.288 for June, which is worse than awful.
Thanks wozat, I was already wondering if I was just seeing things that weren’t there.
“So Johan faced a legit offense last night, and in pressure, I mean it doesn’t get more pressured than what is going on over there.”
The Angels are actually one of the worse offenses in baseball.
Haven’t the Angels scored 1 more run versus runs allowed?
I know SJ said this a few days ago, and I’m sure someone probably brought this up last night after the BOS/LAL game, but I hope Brian Cashman takes a real close look at what Danny Ainge has done over the last few years.
I hope Hank pays attention too.
Ainge built up a plethora of top prospects and young players after years of not competing and getting high draft picks, along with sending veterans away in trades that yielded young players and key components.
Then, realizing the window was closing for his top player, Pierce, he dealt SOME of those young players away for a few key additions that propelled a ‘worst to first’ in the most ultimate fashion, a last-place team the year before winning it all the next year.
I’m not saying empty the farm, not by any means. Make your untouchable lists (Montero, AJax, Betances, McAllister, Sanchez, Brackman, Cano, Joba, Phil to name a few) and you make whatever deal you can to acquire a top of the line pitcher.
With all the right handed pitchng depth the Cash has built over the last few years, IMO, they can afford to trade some for an ace should he become available.
Would you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata for CC, if you could lock him up for 5 years and $125 M? That makes him a free agent at 33, so he could after one last big contract. Add a vesting option if he meets innings requirements in his last year, for all the health-nut worry worts out there.
There are a million different trade options available. I just hope Cash isn’t too married to his prospects. Obviously, you want to build and supply from within the organization.
But there is also a window for key guys on that team, like Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada and Moose. Add Giambi to that list. Even Matsui and Damon.
Why not trade a few pieces and go for it all?
The Angels are actually one of the worse offenses in baseball.
Well then he sucked last night.
Would you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata for CC
Nope I sure as hell wouldn’t
My bad. I double added a day. He’s 13/59 not 16/59.
Angels –
runs scored 304
runs allowed 301
avg per game
runs scored 4.3 (11th in the AL)
runs allowed 4.1 (5th in the AL)
Brandon (supporting “Alex being Alex”) (Jose Tabata Supporter 4 Life !!!!)
June 18th, 2008 at 11:12 am
The Angels are actually one of the worse offenses in baseball.
Well then he sucked last night.
————–
HA!! That was funny.
Sunny, their run differential is +3 actually, though that’s mostly on the strength of their starting rotation. Their bats have a -2.54 WPA. Also, it seems the’ve been a bit lucky so far (30-12 in close games), though that number partly reflects the strength of their pen.
ray,
Melky is the weakest offensive player on this team. Thats not a bad thing because he has other strengths but if Gardner is a possible upgrade why not give him a shot?
There is no harm in giving Brett a few weeks to platoon with Melky and see where he’s at. At the least it will give him a taste of the majors and at most it will help the team. At the moment Melky’s bat is dead so Brett won’t really be a downgrade.
Also, even if Melky isn’t a priority Cashman should be exploring all possible ways to upgrade the team. Just because we have a pitching problem that doesn’t mean he isn’t looking at other areas of the team.
Look I’m not saying Melky should be benched, I’m just saying that Gardner could help the team and theres no harm in giving him a try.
About the roster crunch. As far as I’m concerned there are several guys on the 40-man that are worthless. Get rid of Hawkins and Moeller to start.
And even if they can’t resign CC long term, they get two premium draft picks that make up exactly half of what they paid for him.
I think fans (I’m very guilty of this) build up all of our prospects to heights not every one will even come close to reaching. Think of all the prospects that have come and gone…
I know he’s been hurt in trades before (Brown, Vazquez, the list goes on and on) but he’s also done allright too.
Its either that, or another summer of Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, Al Leiter, etc etc etc…
So, since all of you guys are now ganging up on how suckage Melky is, he’s going to go on a nice tear.
Mussina, Damon, Giambi, Matsui, when will you guys learn? When? It’s a long season. Streaks happen. Let it work itself out.
Cano looked REALLY good at the plate yesterday. Ignore the results, just watch his at bats. I feel pretty confident in putting forth a CONSERVATIVE prediction that he will bat over .300/.350/.450 from here on out.
Bronxbomber – I live up in Boston and wrote a very long post (that didn’t get much play) yesterday during the day to your exact point. I think the Celtics trade is the absolute blueprint for what the Yankee shluld do.
The Yankees have the further benefit compared to the Celtics of being able to restock each year through a draft (where they can pay overslot for guys – unlike the NBA) and the International Free Agent pool (lets go INOA).
A farm system is to build within and use a a trading tool.
With all that said if you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata you better get back Sizemore and CC.
“Boston has 6 championships in the past 7 years”
Yea, but the Patriots (proven) cheated, David Ortiz was on steroids, and nobody cares about the WNBA.
So they have zero in my mind and heart and nobody’s going to tell me different
I think that Melky just needs a few days off. His work out in the field hasn’t suffered though; that’s a good thing.
I know you wouldn’t, Brandon, b/c you are in love with every prospect we have. You have an infinte knowledge of the farm system, and I admire that.
But I’d make that trade for Johan, CC, or Peavy. Any day. And twice on Sunday.
“With all that said if you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata you better get back Sizemore and CC.”
No way CLE gives up Sizemore. He’s the face of the franchise.
The manager gets fired at 3AM in the morning, the GM has given one of the most incoherent press conferences in recent memory, the team is in utter disarray.
And what does Santana do in a big spot last night when he’s facing John Lackey? He immediately gives up 3 runs in the first inning against an awful offensive team.
Just completely puts his team behind the 8 ball at a time when they desperately needed a big start. No doubt – the mets fall behind early last night they were going to fold and lose, especially with Lackey pitching. And Santana just puts them in the hole right away.
Then he goes on to only give them 6 innings for the game.
Over and over people have said here that the yanks need an ace to pitch “big games.”
Last night was a very big game for the Mets. And Santana gave them a mediocre performance.
I’d be love to know what yankee fans would have thought about Santana if he had thrown a game like that for the yanks? How “big game” was Santana last night in a big spot?
If Wang had pitched that way he would have been excoriated by yankee fans.
And the talk about Santana underperforming expectations over at Shea is starting. From metsblog:
“…i’m not disappointed…i think he’s been very good…not great…but very good…and better than his record shows…
…what concerns me is that his velocity seems to be a bit off…and so, last night, while he’s trying to throw a first-pitch strike but the batters were just teeing off of him…he could not get anything by any one, unless it was his masterful change-up, which means he is essentially a one-pitch pitcher at times…”
If a pitcher makes $23M he’s not being paid to be “very good.” He’s being paid to be absolutely dominant.
http://www.metsblog.com/2008/0.....na-so-far/
Okay…maybe I overpaid.
Melancon, Kennedy and Melky for CC.
I’d add Tabata for Peavy or Johan, however. Webb too.
“Why not trade a few pieces and go for it all?”
i think it seems to be just me here, but i really think, considering the current status of the team, and as close as i think they are right now, i’d make a move now to squeeze the throat of the collective American League teams now.
this team is finally playing like it should be. why not make the last move to solidify the team’s weakness in the rotation, and go for it!?
enough with the tip-toeing around with the prospects. they are great to have, and fun to watch develop, and play, but you arent going to have to clean out the system to get something accomplished here, no matter what popular opinion might say about that.
Getting a front of the line ace isn’t cheap these days.
“Melky is the weakest offensive player on this team. Thats not a bad thing because he has other strengths but if Gardner is a possible upgrade why not give him a shot?”
This has been covered 100 times before. Gardner is a lefty. We are already Lefty heavy as it is. We don’t need another one. Plus, there’s no guarantee that Garnder is going to hit any better than Melky has. There’s a big difference between AAA and the majors as our experiment with Shelley Duncan proved.
“With all that said if you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata you better get back Sizemore and CC.”
Two proven all-stars in their prime vs a minor league pitcher unproven in MLB, a young pitcher who has failed in MLB, a good defensive but mediocre-hitting center fielder, and a young, good hitting, outfielder with an attitude.
I’m a Yanks fan but you are going to have a hard time justifying that trade to the Indians.
bronxbomber – of course I would take everyone you mentioned, but you have to analyze who you would give up and how much the new player would cost in years and dollars (+ luxury tax). Your trade is giving up a potential: closer, mid rotation starter, perennial .300 hitting outfielder, and a our starting CF. That is an awful lot to pay for a couple months of CC and/or 2 draft picks.
Shelly Duncan did nothing on the Major league team this year. Right now at SWB he is hitting 279. Now this guy Gardner is doing slightly better at 288. So, going by that Gardner is not ready. When Gardner dominates (hit 320 +) in the minors then talk about him spelling Melky
I was kidding about Sizemore!!!
I just threw that out there because I believe the suggested package is way to much for a few months of CC.
“Would you give up Melancon, Kennedy, Melky and Tabata for CC”
No, I wouldn’t. If CC were a free agent, would you give him a 5 year, $500M contract?
Of course you wouldn’t. That’d be overpaying.
There’s -no way- the Indians get anything remotely close to that package for CC.
Melancon and Tabata are probably on the ‘untouchable’ list. Tabata -might- be touchable, but that would lower the rest of the package.
I’ll agree with SJ44, a Horne+Tabata+lower level arm is probably the -top- of what the Yankees offer.
V, melky doesn’t have the track record some of the guys you mention have. I know he’s not .220/.292/.288 bad, but he has a lifetime OBP of .335 and a lifetime SLG of .385. It’s not terrible, but it’s far from spectacular. You should always explore other/better options, he has not proven he warrants a “Yankee CF guarantee”
“Okay…maybe I overpaid.
Melancon, Kennedy and Melky for CC.
I’d add Tabata for Peavy or Johan, however. Webb too.”
You’re also totally ignoring contract considerations. Webb and Peavy are much more desirable than Johan at a top market contract or 2 months of CC.
Patrick,
My problem with bringing up Gardner is the point that he may be a worse center fielder than Melky.
His offense is an unknown. I will say though that for someone who will primarily be a slap hitter he strikes out way too much. Anytime you view the Scranton box score he has 1 or 2 strikeouts. What do you think that would translate to in the majors.
So if Gardner is a worse fielder than Melky (SJ’s opinion), and his offense might not be an upgrade then why tinker with the roster?
If worse comes to worse they can always just let Damon play center a couple of nights a week and let Matsui play LF with Melky coming in late in the games for defense.
Thank you Jason and Turn Two.
I still say make an untouchables list. Don’t trade the *whole* farm away.
But with the other pieces they have, they should be able to get a deal done for a top flight guy.
I don’t want to read names like Arroyo, Wolf, Lowe, Moe, Curly, Larry, my brother Darrell, or my other brother Darryl all summer long. Chacon? Puh-leeeaze !
If a top flight guy hits the market, with the offense coming on as it has, and certain guys getting ready to come back from injuries, now is the time to step on the throat of the AL. The whole damn League !
*Disclaimer: Of course,a good trade always has to slightly sting. The Duncan Boys, Shelley and Eric, plus Chase Wright isn’t bringing back anything better than Kei Igawa. That’s why a trade for CC has to be felt in some fashion, whether its the OF prospects or some RH pitching prospects.
“I feel pretty confident in putting forth a CONSERVATIVE prediction that he will bat over .300/.350/.450 from here on out.”
These are Cano’s career averages coming into this season over 1700 at bats: .314/.346/.489
So your pretty much saying Cano is going to slightly underperform his established career performance over the rest of this season?
I’m not seeing how this is any kind of “prediction” – conservative or otherwise? Especially when he followed an even more dramatic upturn in performance last year after his cold start.
Many people want to get rid of Cano – same thing as last year when people here wanted him sent down to AAA.
But there’s been plenty of people who are confident that he’s going to get hot and trend back to his expected performance.
There’s really no big news there.
I think there are several reasons why Gardner is not here right now – and his left handed bat is one of them. Cash has already stated they’re carrying 3 catchers until after the ASB because he’s still wary of Posada’s shoulder and wants him healthy all season long. We’ve already seen what this team is without Posada in the lineup so I think that’s a wise move on Cash. So DFA’ing Hawkins is the only obvious move right now on the 40. And with Horne AND McCutchen not on it, IF cash wants to try them out, bringing up Gardner would squeeze an already tight roster.
Santana goes against one of the worse offenses in AL in pressure bombs, has Mets fans questioning whether they got the bang for the buck yet some Yankees fans here still want him…so hilarious
CB – That is a great point about Santana. I thought that Omar wanted a Santana start to be Manuals first game figuring that Santana would come up big, the Mets would win, get off to a good start and deflect some of the heat off of Minaya. Instead, Santana took the Mets right out of the game.
Looking at out upcoming schedule, we could really go on a nice run here.
San Diego-2 games
Cincinnati-3 games
Pittsburgh-3 games
Mets-4 games
Texas-3 games
They could easily go 11-4 or 12-3 over this stretch. With Boston for 4 games after Texas, we could possibly take first place when the Sox come to town.
“If worse comes to worse they can always just let Damon play center a couple of nights a week and let Matsui play LF with Melky coming in late in the games for defense.”
This is why I wish they had a guy like Kielty who crushes lefties and can play all the OF positions…you could sit Melky sometimes and not lose anything on D, really, or you could sit Bobby/Damon against a lefty and still not lose much, if anything.
Melky has more rbi’s then king Derek and he hits 9th.
melky is not that bad but he sucks right handed… from the left side he is more then passable.
on the ainge moves, he got real lucky. and boston will suck for yrs in about 2 yrs. they have no young talent. Rondo is young but a complementary player and same with Perkins. garnett, allen, and piere are over 30+ and they will not repeat..
build from within and add a guy here and there, do not trade the farm ever…….
you think the A’s are bummed about the Haren trade?/ DOUBT IT………….
btw, any of you guys (/girls, of course) have a recommendation for a nice game to pick up at the Stadium over the next few weeks? My brother and I are visiting New York, and he’s never been to a game.
Bradnon, there’s no way to every know how the Santana thing will work out until the contact is up or his career is over.
Trying to dispute it now is silly. Let’s agree to talk about the Santana ‘non-trade’ of 2007 in 7 years.
If he’s a bust, I’ll buy you the biggest steak you can eat, complete with fresh Maine lobster.
Is anyone else having problem getting the Borden article up. It only shows like 3 paragrpahs on the page and I am sure it is longer than that
“V, melky doesn’t have the track record some of the guys you mention have. I know he’s not .220/.292/.288 bad, but he has a lifetime OBP of .335 and a lifetime SLG of .385. It’s not terrible, but it’s far from spectacular. You should always explore other/better options, he has not proven he warrants a “Yankee CF guarantee—
If we’re going to cherry pick stats, from May 21 – June 7th, Melky batted ~ .350/.400/.383
That’s 60 ABs, compared to the 59 ABs you guys are calling June.
:shrug: He’s very streaky, and his power’s been all but absent since his excellent April (.299/.370/.494), but he’s hardly ‘throw under the bus’ bad.
whozat
June 18th, 2008 at 11:32 am
This is why I wish they had a guy like Kielty who crushes lefties and can play all the OF positions…you could sit Melky sometimes and not lose anything on D, really, or you could sit Bobby/Damon against a lefty and still not lose much, if anything.
————————
With Cash’s commitment to carry 3 catchers – there wouldn’t be a roster spot for a 4th OF at the moment. I would love a Kielty, but with Posada’s shoulder still a question mark, I think this is a wise move to keep Posada strong througout the season.
Gayle, it worked fine for me. A great piece by Borden. The firing one by Julie and Rachel was very funny as well.
Getting dumped on a ski lift, 3 minutes into a ten minute ride? Too funny!
“This is why I wish they had a guy like Kielty who crushes lefties and can play all the OF positions…you could sit Melky sometimes and not lose anything on D, really, or you could sit Bobby/Damon against a lefty and still not lose much, if anything.”
Is Kielty injured or something this year? Doesn’t look like he has any stats for 2008.
Runners on base for Derek Jeter, 2008: 160
Runners on base for Melky Cabrera, 2008: 181
RBI’s should be forbidden in these discussions (nevertheless, Jeter is also underperforming)
“So your pretty much saying Cano is going to slightly underperform his established career performance over the rest of this season?”
That was my conservative opinion, a 95th % confidence if you will, not my expectations.
There’s no guarantee he won’t slump again. But he’d looking a lot better since his 1 day benching.
It’s funny now for sure, but back then, it was interesting times for sure…
Don’t count the chickens!!!!!!!!!!
One game at a time.
Just seems to me everytime I look too far ahead, nothing works out the way I had it figured on paper. That goes for other things besides baseball, too, for me.
One day at a time!
(But I do like the way the Yankees have been playing!)
Can someone tell me, what changed so much for Willie Randolph? His first couple of seasons with the Mets were almost magical. So many things went well. Then it was like a snowball gathering momentum, all the negative vibes. I know they weren’t playing well, but from the outside looking in, it seemed like he didn’t have a consistent pitching staff and he had to deal with a lot of injuries. How did things get to this point for him? And how true is it about people in the organization undermining his authority with the players? How does such a thing happen?
V, that’s what I said as well: I know he’s not as bad as this current streak suggests. However, his LIFETIME numbers suggest he’s not exactly Mantle. So, he shouldn’t just be handed the job.
Brandon, there’s no way to every know how the Santana thing will work out until the contact is up or his career is over.
Trying to dispute it now is silly. Let’s agree to talk about the Santana ‘non-trade’ of 2007 in 7 years.
If he’s a bust, I’ll buy you the biggest steak you can eat, complete with fresh Maine lobster.
Sounds yummy can’t wait.
And how true is it about people in the organization undermining his authority with the players? How does such a thing happen?
——————-
the front office doesn’t back their manager and that starts with the GM.
If you think .220/.292/.288 from a 9 hitter is that bad, what about .230/.288/.344 for the same period from a 3 hitter?
“:shrug: He’s very streaky, and his power’s been all but absent since his excellent April (.299/.370/.494), but he’s hardly ‘throw under the bus’ bad.”
His OBP since his great April has been hideous too. I’m just saying that his offense, even given his hot April, is barely adequate. If he’d shown the ability to replicate his OBP from 2006 he’d be solid, even without adding a lot of power. But…he hasn’t. And that’s a problem.
OOPs hit submit before I finished.
Abreu has a bigger history than Melky so it’s easier to dismiss but it does send the warning of beware of sample sizes.
We admitted that was a small sample size. Also, my point about past performance and lifetime trends remains.
Finally, do you know what this is: .229/.279/.307?
It’s Melky, since MAY 1st. Again, I don’t believe he’s that bad. But I don’t feel the urge to defend him all the way around.
Pete, the ads imbedded in your note book and defrocked hijacked my computer and didn’t let me read below the ad (which is most of it) Please see if you can help us out here!
The All-Star game FanFest sounds like fun..
Ya know what they should have….a steel cage match between Hank Steinbrenner and Jeff Wilpon.
My money is on Hank…I think he can out-talk Jeff to the death.
and OOPS, sorry Pat, I sent out my reply before I saw your addendum.
“V, that’s what I said as well: I know he’s not as bad as this current streak suggests. However, his LIFETIME numbers suggest he’s not exactly Mantle. So, he shouldn’t just be handed the job.”
No one expects Mantle.
But the guy’s 23. If he were doing this at 26? Yeah, you say ’4th outfielder’, and that’s that.
However, he has the ability to potentially develop into a 2007 Alex Rios guy. :shrug:
Fake Celtics fan are out in full force today
Nothing new though in the bandwagon sports city that is Boston
I think Melky’s safe for the rest of this season regardless of how his numbers end up.
In 2009 if he’s still putting up these numbers then we’ll all be saying hello to AJax sometime in 2009.
The way I see it is if Melky doesn’t improve they’ll look to trade him and let Gardner be the centerfielder until AJax is ready.
V: well, yes, the point about age is definitely worth considering.
I’m off, dinner and thesis writing to do, see you guys later.
Tiger Woods out for the season
stress fracture golf is dead now.
Wouter,
If you’re going to be here for the next home stand (June 30-July 9), you should try and get something for the Texas series because Boston tickets can be tough. You can probably also get something pretty good for the two Tampa games, especially the Wednesday afternoon finale on July 9.
Have a good trip.
From Ohio.com’s Ken Davidoff (Story Link
Excerpts:
It appears that baseball’s trade-deadline enthusiasts might get their wish. But don’t expect the New York Yankees to emerge as the winners of the C.C. Sabathia sweepstakes.
The Sabathia deal figures to happen. It just figures to happen somewhere else, regardless of the bad news about Chien-Ming Wang’s right foot.
The bar to leap, as it is in all trades of impending free agents, is a package of players that exceeds, in quality, the two 2009 amateur draft picks the Indians would gain if they retain Sabathia for the duration of the season and let him sign elsewhere next winter.
If you’re talking about the Yankees, think of someone such as Ian Kennedy as a starting point.
But just as likely, you’ve got to bet against that anxious team being the Yankees.
”I’d be very surprised if that happened,” said one official from a major-league team who follows the Yankees closely. ”Cash has been very conservative the past few years.”
General Manager Brian Cashman has dramatically changed the Yankees’ culture. No longer do they trade multiple prospects for 21/2 months of Denny Neagle, or commit four years to Carl Pavano.
In honor of Pavano, the Yankees won’t go near a long-term deal for Sabathia, who will be thinking of the six-year, $137.5-million deal Johan Santana received from the New York Mets. In honor of Neagle, Cashman won’t give up a lot for a little, even if it’s a little of a very good pitcher.
Cashman hasn’t misled the Indians. They know he’s lukewarm about the Sabathia trade idea.
But Cashman will be in the loop on the Sabathia trade discussions; he always wants as much information as possible, and since he has the trade chips, he merits Shapiro’s attention.
The Sabathia deal figures to happen. It just figures to happen somewhere else, regardless of Wang’s bad news.
Thanks Todd, I’ll look into it. Do you perhaps know where I can best look for tickets, since I’m still in Europe atm? (I’ll probably be in NY at the end of the trip too though, just before July 22nd)
Wow I just read about Tiger Woods. He has a ruptured ACL and a double stress fracture to his left fibia. Tiger is a god among men, I can’t believe he gutted out 91 holes with those injuries.
Back to my arguments about Gardner. We are talking in circles here and all the arguments put forth have already been discussed so I’ll make this short and sweet. First, you can’t point at Duncan’s failure in MLB and say Gardner will fail as well, thats just absurd. Second, of course we don’t know what Gardner will do in the ML but thats the case for all prospects that get called up.
The bottom line is Melky is a weakness on offense and Gardner has the chance to improve the 9 spot. I think it will benefit the team (and Gardner’s development) to call up Brett and let him platoon at CF for a few weeks. Don’t give me that nonsense about the team already being lefty heavy, Gardner hits lefties more than righties. At the very least it gives Melky a breather and we can see how close Gardner is to being ML ready. At best we find out that Gardner is ready for the majors.
Brett Gardner does not project to be any better than Melky for this season.
If Gardner came up his expected production:
.258/.343/.366
Melky’s expected production this year taking into account his past performance and his current performance this year: .276/.335/.401.
Garnder also has a history of struggling significantly when he is promoted to a higher level of play.
Melky has been very bad the past two months. But its hard to have alot of confidence that Gardner will be significantly better. He could but there isn’t a lot of reason to know that he will.
http://www.replacementlevel.co.....direct/C17
Wouter,
July 22 would put you at the end of the Twins series. I bet you can get some tickets for Tuesday (7:05 pm) and Wednesday (1:05 pm). I would try yankees.com for tickets. If you have trouble I will poke around the neighborhood. I’m always happy to help a Yankees’ teammate.
Trade proposal – Shelly Duncan for Aaron Heilman.
Typical Lupica garbage. Far more tame toward the Mets than he ever is toward the Yankees. And of course, when he does go after the Mets at all, you get the same spiel:
“Derrr, they look like the Yankees, they’re acting like the Yankees, they mishandled this like the Yankees, if they don’t watch out they’ll end up being just like the Yankees!”
And, uh, how many of the championships does that involve there, Mike?
“Melky has been very bad the past two months. But its hard to have alot of confidence that Gardner will be significantly better. He could but there isn’t a lot of reason to know that he will. ”
You’re right there isn’t any reason to expect Gardner to be better. But what is the harm in bringing him up for a few weeks and giving him some experience in the majors? It would give Brett some good experience, it allows the management to see where he is at in his development, it might increase his trade value if he plays well and as a final goal it might end up improving the team.
Funny how Lupica-Poopica doesn’t allow comments on his columns.
Doesn’t have the cajones to take criticism.
I’ve heard even his email is fake…
CC has a much better track record then Denny Neagle or Carl Pavano. I don’t think you can believe anyone in baseball when it comes to trade speculation.
And I read above stating Cash should take a page from Danny Ainges playbook. That’s funny. I don’t think there are any former Yankee players as GM willing to make a sweet heart deal to give us an ace pitcher for Shelly Duncan, Letroy Hawkins, and a loser to be named later.
Kevin McHale deserves a ring for that deal and an invitation to the Celtics parade.
T Wolves fans deserve better.
From ESPN.com
“Woods said on his Web site that he originally ruptured the ACL in 2007 while running at his home in Orlando after the British Open. He said he decided not to have surgery at that point, and he went on to win five of the next six events he entered…”
He didn’t just tear his ACL, he “ruptured” it. Oh, and then he won 5 of his next 6 events. They should somehow mix his “genes” with Big Brown’s “genes” and see what we come up with. I’m predicting Alex Rodriguez?
Does anyone ever wonder how come Brian Heyman always has the story?
Does that man ever get a day off?
Mariners to release Sexson http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....l#comments
Totally doubt it, but he could be worth a flyer (replace Duncan’s role). Totally MURDERS LHP, but -stinks- vs. RHP.
Or, assume his contract ($7M) as part of a deal for Bedard or Felix?
Sexson is CB’s guy
What, CB reps him? Or really likes Sexson as a fan?
Is CB in the biz?
no if Seattle releases him CB likes Sexson’s bat.
Anybody see Buster Olney’s blog today?
Can I ask a question?
Why is it that media members that speculate about trades always say (at least recently) that the Boston Red Sox could acquire CC or Teixeira and not have to dip into their pool of ‘uber-talent’?
They can make all these trades using secondary prospects, while the Yankees have to give up top tier packages if they want to make any high profile deals?
From Olney:
҉ۢ The Atlanta Braves continue to struggle, and at some point, they will face the same decision with Mark Teixeira that the Indians have to make with C.C. Sabathia: Do they trade the prospective free agent for established talent, or do they keep him for the rest of the season and just take the draft-pick compensation when he walks away at the end of the year?
In a summer in which teams are absolutely starving for power hitters, the Braves might well get more value by trading him — to the Angels, who may need to find a way to make up for the power that Vladimir Guerrero has not been providing, or the Dodgers, or the Yankees (though this is very unlikely). But here’s an intriguing thought (and it’s nothing but speculation): For the same reason that the Red Sox might be the best-positioned team to make a run at Sabathia, if they wanted to, Boston could be best positioned to make a short-term acquisition of Teixeira.
The only reason the Red Sox would consider doing this would be if they determined, internally, that David Ortiz will not be able to make it all the way back. Even though he might play again this year, that does not guarantee that he actually will come close to being as good as he has been in the past, with wrist injuries being an uncertain and touchy matter. The Red Sox are so loaded with prospects that they can hang onto the likes of Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester and Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie and tell other teams to consider their secondary prospects. And while there is on-going debate about how much money Teixeira will be paid as a free agent this fall — many executives think it will be far less than the $200 million speculated upon in some corners — there is no doubt that he would be a suitable replacement for Ortiz. The Red Sox could essentially rotate the Gold Glover with Kevin Youkilis and Mike Lowell in the first/third/DH spots, and down the stretch, they could simulate the kind of power that Ortiz has given them in the past. And then, at season’s end, they could let Teixeira walk away and they could take the draft picks as compensation.
I don’t think the Red Sox would do it — with or without Teixeira, they are a great team capable of winning the World Series again — and if they have to replace Ortiz’s offense, they could do so with a less costly player. My colleague Peter Gammons thinks Josh Willingham of the Marlins would be a great fit. All interesting thoughts.”
Or, all media bowing down to RSN…
I call it ‘Anti-Yankism’…
“no if Seattle releases him CB likes Sexson’s bat.”
Wait a minute. Are you referring to me?
I hope that’s a joke because I can’t stand Sexson. He is awful. I wouldn’t go anywhere near him. He is terrible.
“They can make all these trades using secondary prospects, while the Yankees have to give up top tier packages if they want to make any high profile deals?”
i actually thought the same exact thing… and not just from a Yankees perspective, but there are a numbner of teams who have deep systems that could afford to spare a couple prospects to acquire a guy like CC or Tex w/o moving the cream of the crop.
but yeah, weird that Olney would focus just on how the Saux could afford to do it w/o mentioning anyone else. he’s usually better than that.
He his from the school of Gammons…
This might have been raised in the Aceves thread earlier, but I missed that. Does anyone know if there’s an innings limit on him? He’s already pitched over 80 innings, and I think he went slightly over a hundred last year. If that’s true, he’d only have 50 or so innings left this year. Are the innings limits just for the Yankees best prospects, like Hughes and Kennedy? Or would they consider Aceves old enough, or not important enough, to worry about a limit?
“Why is it that media members that speculate about trades always say (at least recently) that the Boston Red Sox could acquire CC or Teixeira and not have to dip into their pool of ‘uber-talent’?”
I have no idea.
The Red Sox don’t have to include Ellsbury or Buchholz or Lester, but the Yankees have to start at Joba, Hughes, or Kennedy+Tabata?
I’ve learned to totally ignore media speculation. They’re never right. Olney’s decent when there are credible rumors, but this is just pure speculation.
“I’ve learned to totally ignore media speculation. They’re never right.”
agreed, same here.
It’s due to a few reasons: first, the Yankees’ prospects are, by-and-large, underperforming, which gives the illusion that it means those prospects were over-hyped. Generally, that’s actually not the case, but most mainstream media members do not bother to give anything more than a shallow analysis of a team’s farm system, so if a particular prospect isn’t producing today, he’s just written off as a bust.
Second, the cream of the Yankees’ crop is mostly buried in the lower depths of the farm system, with the exceptions of Horne, Melancon, and Jackson (arguably Tabata, too, but he’s young enough to remain at AA for another year or so). The rest of the Yankees’ high ceiling types (I don’t count Gardner, McCutchen or Marquez as having high ceilings, although they’re certainly up there among Yankee prospects in general) are either injured (Brackman, Garcia, Sanchez-though he’s coming back this month), or haven’t reached or completed A ball yet (Betances, McAllister, Montero, Suttle, Heredia, Nova, DeLeon, Romine, just to name a few of the bigger names).
Still, the Yankees have one of the five deepest farm systems in all of baseball, even accounting for the graduation of Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy, and just happen to be cursed to be in the same division as two of the other ones (Tampa Bay, light years ahead of the rest of baseball in that regard, and Boston, which–while overrated–still has a very solid farm system).
What’s interesting is that, when you compare prospects between New York and Boston with similar profiles–to use an example, Montero and Lars Anderson, although Montero has greater value developing as a catcher, and has been outhitting Montero at a younger age–media outlets will consistently pick the Boston player as the better prospect. Now, there’s nothing particularly wrong with that: I think the lingering memory of years of poor drafting and player development in the Yankee system contributes to that.
But if you ask me, I think other teams know and understand how to scout and evaluate top minor league talent, no matter what system they’re in. Sure, teams might discount talent that’s in the same league or division of their own, but otherwise, top talent is top talent, no matter what uniform he might wear.
maybe olney doesn’t think the yanks have a pool of non-uber-talent…
okay, nevermind… i’ll go with Anti-Yankism as well
“They can make all these trades using secondary prospects, while the Yankees have to give up top tier packages if they want to make any high profile deals?”
Come on ladies and gents..as we always say..there are two set us rule..those for the Yankees and those for everyone else. All these teams just want to bleed the Yankees. Look at what the Muts gave up for Santana and look at what they were demanding from the Yankees…it is a joke
“Why is it that media members that speculate about trades always say (at least recently) that the Boston Red Sox could acquire CC or Teixeira and not have to dip into their pool of ‘uber-talent’?â€
I think part of this has to do with Yankee fans overrating our prospects. Remember last year when Gagne was on the trade block the Rangers wanted Melky and Kennedy I believe. They ended up getting Beltre, Gabbard, and Murphy. Originally the rumors were Gagne was being traded for just Gabbard and Murphy and a lot of Yankee fans were up in arms about how they demanded so much more from the Yanks but took a lesser package from the Sox. Now looking back at it, both Murphy and Gabbard have been better than Kennedy and Melky this season.
I think Yankee fans are getting better at not overrating prospects but it still happens. Remember how Tyler Clippard was going to be a #2 starter, Eric Duncan was the second coming, etc ?
“It’s the 18th of the month.”
Um..ok Chris Russo. Thanks?
Wait a minute. Are you referring to me?
I hope that’s a joke because I can’t stand Sexson. He is awful. I wouldn’t go anywhere near him. He is terrible.
Then was it SJ or whozat
Sexson? He’s been awful for a long time. Did you watch him play against us this year? He was an automatic out. When he stood in the box, you were positive he wasn’t going to do any damage. He’s toast.
I’m at a point in rereading The Bronz Zoo at which Willie Randolph returned to the lineup after an injury. After weeks of media talk, Billy Martin has been fired as the Yankees manager, replaced by Bob Lemon. A few weeks later, Papa George announced that Billy would be back as manager the next year. (I don’t know how Lemon felt about this.)
The Yankes are about 6 1/2 games behind the Sawx in the book, and they went on to win the World Series. SO, if Omar wants to save the Mets, he ought to announce that Randolph is coming back next year, just not now.
Or maybe not.
Sheesh. I’m not really as much of a slacker as you think I am…
Okay, I am, but that’s not the point!
“I hope that’s a joke because I can’t stand Sexson. He is awful. I wouldn’t go anywhere near him. He is terrible.”
You and I were talking once, and I’d put forth the idea that IF Sexson was free—as in, released, and you get him for the MLB minimum—he might be worth a shot as a platoon power bat. Help balancing he lineup, and I _think_ good D. But I’m not sure about the latter.
I recall you agreeing that MAYBE, if he was free, he’d be worth thinking about.
Apparently, that has been construed as wholehearted support.
With Damon and Giambi playing at a nice level of production recently now is the time to see if there is a market for their services elsewhere. Both are just a tweak away from being injured and mediocre again. They are not the future and are most certainly at the peak of their current selling point.
Package one or both of them and a prospect or two and acquire a decent starter and appropriate position player.
Shore up the pitching and defense which has really hurt the team IMO.
“The Red Sox are so loaded with prospects that they can hang onto the likes of Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester and Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie and tell other teams to consider their secondary prospects.”
Sox have a guy at AA, Michael Bowden who is more highly regarded than anyone the Yanks have in AA or AAA and at age 21, is arguably the best starting pitcher in the Eastern League. Were he to be included in a deal with Lars Anderson (a BA Top 40 prospect)and a couple B+ types, I’d guess it could get done. I doubt they’d do it, and I think Olney is incorrect to view all the guys not named Lester, Ellsbury, Buchholz an Masterson as secondary prospects, but I’d guess something close to what I outlined above would get it done without those names.
“Now looking back at it, both Murphy and Gabbard have been better than Kennedy and Melky this season. ”
Yes. Kennedy’s 9 starts at 23 have cemented him as a worse prospect than the 26 year old Gabbard.
“Sox have a guy at AA, Michael Bowden who is more highly regarded than anyone the Yanks have in AA or AAA and at age 21,”
He was ranked above Horne? Kennedy? Or he’s projected to have a higher ceiling? They’re different.
“Yes. Kennedy’s 9 starts at 23 have cemented him as a worse prospect than the 26 year old Gabbard.”
Where did I say that? I didn’t say or imply that Gabbard is a better prospect than Kennedy. I simply pointed out that Murphy and Gabbard have performed at a higher level than Melky and Kennedy. Am I wrong?
patrick– unfortunately there are a lot of strident people here ready to jump on anybody…
There is no way the Red Sox get CC or Tex and don’t give up one of their studs. Thats ridiculous. They don’t have anyone in the minors that we haven’t seen up in the bigs who is a big piece.
Bowden? Please.
“He was ranked above Horne? Kennedy? Or he’s projected to have a higher ceiling? They’re different.”
Both
Take that back. Ranked ahead of Horne, but not Kennedy, but projected upside higher than both.
13-2 Yankees over the next 15 games…BoSux will come to Yankee Stadium and we will ALREADY be in 1st place in the division…..BOOK IT, Dan-O !!!
Yes, Bowden’s upside is higher than that of Kennedy and Horne’s.
You and I were talking once, and I’d put forth the idea that IF Sexson was free—as in, released, and you get him for the MLB minimum—he might be worth a shot as a platoon power bat. Help balancing he lineup, and I _think_ good D. But I’m not sure about the latter.
I recall you agreeing that MAYBE, if he was free, he’d be worth thinking about.
Apparently, that has been construed as wholehearted support.
I knew I wasn’t going crazy. Yeh we had that talk, I didn’t disagree I mean RHB sucks at hitting only vs RHP but slaughters LHP .349/.417/.581
Yes, Bowden’s upside is higher than that of Kennedy and Horne’s.
Kennedy Yes. Not Horne.
Entering Play on 7/2/08
.
NYY 51-35 –
BOS 51-36 0.5
.
Then the Yankees take 3 out of 4 OR Sweep out the BeanEaters and never look back !
“I simply pointed out that Murphy and Gabbard have performed at a higher level than Melky and Kennedy. Am I wrong?”
Sadly, you are not. Gabbard has been back in forth from MLB to AAA, and is really a #6 starter. Kennedy has the higher upside even still. Melky is 2-3 younger than Murphy, who is really surprising. Probably more upside for Melky too, though I don’t think he’ll ever amount to much of a hitter.
“Kennedy Yes. Not Horne.”
Seriously? Why?
Does Horne project to be a #3?
“Kennedy Yes. Not Horne.”
Absolutely Horne. Bowden projects as a #2 and at 21 years old is probably the EL’s best pitcher. Horne is 26 next Opening Day and projects as a low end of the rotation type.
“Sadly, you are not. Gabbard has been back in forth from MLB to AAA, and is really a #6 starter. Kennedy has the higher upside even still. Melky is 2-3 younger than Murphy, who is really surprising. Probably more upside for Melky too, though I don’t think he’ll ever amount to much of a hitter.”
Did I mention upside anywhere in either of my posts? NO!
I realize Kennedy and Melky have higher upside than both Murphy and Gabbard but thats not what I was talking about. I’m talking about results so far this year. You can’t possibly say Kennedy and Melky have performed better than Gabbard and Murphy THIS YEAR.
I was just trying to point out an example of when Yankee fans have a different perspective then the rest of baseball. Most fans thought the Rangers gave NY a raw deal by demanding more from them then they demanded from the Sox. Turns out the Rangers got exactly what they wanted, 2 guys that are ML ready and a project with high upside (Beltre).
FYI Horne does not project as a “low end of rotation type,” Kennedy does.
Don Vito A. Bellamo
June 18th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“13-2 Yankees over the next 15 games…BoSux will come to Yankee Stadium and we will ALREADY be in 1st place in the division…..BOOK IT, Dan-O !!!”
Vito….Vito….we will just have to agree to disagree on this one! Hey, even though we sit on “opposite sides of the fence” I like your passion and enthusiasm for your team. Have a good day.
RAYES!– he is the biggest punk you will ever see! did you ever see a-rod, jeter , or anybody show off a manager like that??!! a-rod batted once 8th didnt say a peep! even jeter doesnt like when his manager takes him out from a game never shows it! god bless that rayes is with the mets he is there SELF WEAPON OF MASS TEAM DISTRUCTION!!
Absolutely Horne. Bowden projects as a #2 and at 21 years old is probably the EL’s best pitcher. Horne is 26 next Opening Day and projects as a low end of the rotation type.
Horne being 26 and near ML ready was projected a # 2 – 3 SP, they compared him w/ John Maine. Until Bowden gets to AAA you can’t annoint him anything, if that’s how it is then we can add Betances or McCallister to this equation. Between Horne and Bowden you;d have to be crazy to pick Bowden.
Horne projects to a #4 or #5. Always has. Nothing’s really changed as far as that goes.
Horne projects to a #4 or #5. Always has. Nothing’s really changed as far as that goes.
Are you sure about that ?
Who’s more clutch?
a.Michael Jordan
b.Tiger Woods
c.Joe Montana
d.Jeter
e.?
does e.? stand for Eli?
“Between Horne and Bowden you;d have to be crazy to pick Bowden.”
If heartless Theo offered that deal, Cashman would personally drive Horne to the minor league outpost (presumedly Pawtucket) of Theo’s choice.
“Are you sure about that ?”
You have anything beside pure fanboyism that says otherwise?
“Are you sure about that ?”
Can you show me otherwise?
Is funny how he left David Ortiz out of that list……
“does e.? stand for Eli?”
saucy,
No. Elway.
Not a Red Sox fan, but you have to agree that David Ortiz is a pretty clutch guy. Maybe not more than Jeter but you have to give it up to him.
Tiger winning the US Open on a fractured Tibia, making some clutch shots along the way goes a long to his name being the right answer.
“Is funny how he left David Ortiz out of that list……”
HGH list,
a.Wells
b.Tejada
c.Roberts
d.Matthews
e.Ortiz
f.Hafner
You happy now?
Do people realize that Bowden, last year, posted a 1.37 ERA at Lancaster? Lancaster makes The Great American Ballpark look like a pitcher’s park.
He got promoted to AA last year and struggled but has made the adjustment this year and is dominating the Eastern League to the tune of 76.1 IP, 48 H, 2 HR, 18/72 BB/SO 2.24 ERA and a .86 WHIP. .86 WHIP! And he is 21.
Are you really that dense that you would take Horne over Bowden? If so, I think the Mets might consider you for a front office position.
“Until Bowden gets to AAA you can’t annoint him anything”
Disagree. Otherwise all our annointings of Melancon have to be taken back. Not sure I’m willing to do that.
Slackers? Why is he calling me slacker? I’m the guy driving a Porsche.
This is why I love baseball season- once the season ends (which, in my mind, occurs when the Yankees are eliminated) I get incredibly depressed. No more box scores to check the next morning, no more GameCast on the computer at work, no more blogs or newspaper stories. Instead I am left with facing the cold hard reality called Life. Or, even worse, football. My routine is disturbed.
The most horrible times are those days in October when the evenings are cool, the leaves are turning and the air is crisp and the Yankees are not playing. How can I get fired up about watching the St. Louis Cardinals or the BoSox? I might as well turn off the t.v., go out in the backyard, crack open some beers and get a buzz while raking the yard.
I know a lot of people that listen to Mike and the Mad are pretty upset right now. This guys are crazy.
“Horne projects to a #4 or #5. Always has. Nothing’s really changed as far as that goes.”
That is false. He is projected as a 2 or 3 and in the past he was projected even higher.
“Tiger winning the US Open on a fractured Tibia, making some clutch shots along the way goes a long to his name being the right answer.”
Very gutsy. I have to say that Jordan playing with a high fever and scoring (i believe)38 in a championship game was as gutsy.
Bowden my friend an overrated prospect. Talk me when he learns to throw his secondary pitches. Guess who won the El pitcher of the year award last year?
A young man by the name of Alan Horne.
“Still, the Yankees have one of the five deepest farm systems in all of baseball, even accounting for the graduation of Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy, and just happen to be cursed to be in the same division as two of the other ones (Tampa Bay, light years ahead of the rest of baseball in that regard, and Boston, which–while overrated–still has a very solid farm system).”
fallen phoenix-
without knowing much about tampa’s minor league system, what makes it light years ahead of everyone else?
being bad for along time and getting lots of high draft picks,
or do they have a really good developmental program?
Alan Horne: “At times, Horne shows four above-average pitches, starting with a fastball that usually sits at 92-93 mph but also can park at 94-95. While he has frontline stuff, Horne’s command relegates him to a No. 3 or 4 starter profile.“
I’m trying to find more but he was projected 2 – 3, by Baseball America.
Brandon,
Was he really? When? Baseball America’s Top 100 Prospect List didn’t even include Horne this offseason.
hey everyone – long time, no blog. i’m going to the sunday game of the subway series next week. 2 questions:
1. do we have any idea who is pitching yet? (please be joba please be joba) and
2. im trying to think of a willie randolph-supportive slogan i can put onto one of those old typical navy blue with white NY over the left chest t shirts i have that i can wear to shea. any suggestions?
Oh god, Fatso and Rapid dog are dissing Suzy and John.
Jennifer – what are they going on about?
oh lord fatso and crazy dog….is this for real..
Was he really? When? Baseball America’s Top 100 Prospect List didn’t even include Horne this offseason.
A 2-3 SP and I find it odd he’s not on the top 100 I mean he was the EL Pitcher of The Year.
About Suzy and John critizing the Mets, but never saying anything negative about Yankee ownership.
basically-Suzyn and John have no problem criticizing the Mets, but they never throw any criticism the Yankees way
I thought jerry west was the “clutch”?
Seems to me these Best Prospect Lists are not static and are constantly being revised based on the most current information available. I can’t help but also think that although from what I’m gathering this information is supposed to be objective, there also seems to be some subjective stuff going on.
What is amusing to me, is how, at least based on what I see posted here, as soon as Yankees “top prospects” get anywhere near a point where they’d be considered for trade or promotion, all of a sudden their value falls. And I don’t know if that’s just in the eyes of the posters here or the media/sports people discussing prospective trades, or what.
I’m not knowledgeable in this; I’m just giving my impression based on the dialog that goes on right here.
A case in point would be Joba. Now that he’s actually in the Yankees rotation, all of a sudden his arsenal is said to be not as strong as was discussed last summer, and all those plus pitches aren’t really refined and his ceiling may not be as high as was originally thought. I just wonder, what gives? And does this just happen in Yankeeland or is it a baseball-wide phenomenon?
Mad Dog – “Hank doesn’t know anything about baseball”
This is the singular best case of pot and kettle I’ve ever witnessed.
I would love to hear Hank on with these 2 fools.
omg…can you imagine..lol
TK – lol
“A case in point would be Joba…”
Who is saying that about Joba? Mark Teahen?
MJ was the most clutch athlete ever
i gotta go with tiger fot the biggest clutch player over jordan look how he played this week and noe we find out that he dicter didnt let him play any he is out for this year! but one thing its much harder playing basketball than stroking golf balls.
Brandon,
What happened to the homerun count? Its up to 13 and counting. Bring it back.
“He said it dumbly”-Mike Francesa
did Cocoa Puffs get injured today ? I see he was taken out of that game with the Phillies after only one AB !
Bowden is 21 and dominating the EL and projects to be a top of the line starter. So did Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. They did it a AAA too.
So as a Yankee fan, does that mean when they get healthy I should expect Seaver and Palmer?
Dumbly ain’t a word, irregardless of what he think.
Patrick -
I know I’ve read it here. I said, I’m not knowledgeable about all this, but the prospect information seems to change all the time. And it just seems to me that I read here that all these Yankees prospects are wonderful, and then as soon as actual trade dicussions happen, well, they’re not quite as wonderful as we all thought.
I’m not talking about the correctness of my impression, just that it’s an impression I’ve gotten.
You know what? Just forget I wrote anything, ‘kay?
“but one thing its much harder playing basketball than stroking golf balls.”
That depends on your definition of “hard”
Tiger vs MJ for clutchest player ever? Thats an impossible question..
When is Coco going to serve that g.d. suspension? Has he already done it?
Who is saying that about Joba? Mark Teahen
A lot of so-called scouts, most are saying as a SP Joba’s fastball is straighter than an arrow, it’s funny because the straightest fastballs for a MLB player I haven’t seen criticized yet 2 reside in Boston.
“I’m not talking about the correctness of my impression, just that it’s an impression I’ve gotten.
You know what? Just forget I wrote anything, ‘kay?”
No, I hear what you’re saying. It seems like some fans are very impatient and the value of certain players changes very quickly.
Brandon,
What happened to the homerun count? Its up to 13 and counting. Bring it back.
Tough time SA, Tabata needs my support more.
SoS not SA (sorry)
Brandon -
Thanks for your comment. I was starting to doubt myself, but what you posted is what I’ve read here before. I guess I’m not crazy – yet. :S
ray…..you remain the one exception to the “rule” of my disdain for the “other side”…you, too,,,have a great day !!!
i mean running back and forth on the court getting fouled a lot dunking jumping all of these stuff plus having high fever cant be compaired to playing golf
“Tough time SA, Tabata needs my support more.”
Alex has found a home. Keep Tabata and bring back the all important homerun count. It tends to keep the trolls or the shoulda woulda coulda away.
““Between Horne and Bowden you;d have to be crazy to pick Bowden.â€
If heartless Theo offered that deal, Cashman would personally drive Horne to the minor league outpost (presumedly Pawtucket) of Theo’s choice.”
John Sickels has both Horne and Kennedy higher on his 2008 prospect list for what it’s worth.
http://www.minorleagueball.com.....hing-prosp
He thinks Alan Horne is a Grade B prospect. I don’t know if that’s front end or back end of a rotation. He thinks Kennedy is a grade B+ prospect.
http://www.minorleagueball.com...../164349/45
Patrick -
Believe me, I’m not one of the impatient ones, and I do understand that circumstances can change with prospects and that sometimes when they change levels they drop a bit, and there’s a “correction” period or “learning curve.” I understand all that.
What gets me is how much it SEEMS to get done with Yankees prospects. That’s all.
Also, I’m probably reacting to the fact that every day more and more you have to hear about how wonderful the Boston Red Sox are – in fact, they’re practically FLAWLESS these days, dontcha know? I’ve always considered myself a very tolerant fan and I can certainly deal with the fact that Red Sox are a good team. But when did they become the be-all and end-all from the top to the bottom? And when did what seems like the entire sports media conglomerate jump on board this particular bandwagon? ALL their prospects are great; Theo NEVER makes mistakes; ALL their trades are good; blah, blah, blah! Even Buck Martinez, who I have always enjoyed listening to, seems to be in Red Sox heaven these days. I know they’re good. But there clearly seems to be an over-reaching bias for everything Red Sox lately.
That, and I probably get frustrated reading all the fantasy packages put together for fantasy trades. I shouldn’t read them, but I do, and I rarely comment on them, because as I said, I’m not knowledgeable. But it gets awfully mind-boggling sometimes.
Hello fellow faithful I have yet to turn on ESPN today I cant hear the Boston love-fest that happens too much already.
“A 2-3 SP and I find it odd he’s not on the top 100 I mean he was the EL Pitcher of The Year.”
He’s not in the Top 100 because nobody in the scouting community views him as a 2-3 pitcher. If he’s ever the Yankees #2, it’ll be a long season for our fellow Yankees fans.
EL Pitcher of the Year means little in terms if his prospective MLB performance. He’s viewed as a guy who can contribute, but not as a potential star or high end of the rotation pitcher.
Are the Mets actually worse than the Phillies????
Both Masterson and Bowden were given grade B’s by Sickels as well.
http://www.minorleagueball.com.....own-justin
A Grade B is considered a #3 by Sickels.
Good morning guys,
Need more info. How high was Jordan’s temperature? 101 or 103? There’s a big difference. Did he take medication to alleviate the fever and other symptons?
When did Tiger break his leg?
if a fastball wasnt straight, shouldnt it be called a breaking ball?
“basically-Suzyn and John have no problem criticizing the Mets, but they never throw any criticism the Yankees way”
Mike and Dog are idiots. How many of you criticize your boss on tape for the whole world to hear?
“When did Tiger break his leg?”
Apparently, he played the Open with a stress fracture in is Tibia and while needing ACL surgery. He’s out til ’09
Doreen,
I see the same thing. From the signing of Dice K. Where everyone said he was a legit #1. With his unhittable Gyroball. A #1 that cant get to the 6th inning more ofter than not. Cost Ace money. To Pedroia being better than Cano. To Bucholtz being better than Hughes. Elsbury being the next Willie Mays. I feel you D.
Doreen- I like to call it the ESPN conspiracy. All of their broadcasters are serious New England brown nosers so its all Boston all the time. It took awhile for me to notice but the field of on-air personalities is predominantly anti-NY or anti-Yankees. Just think of the guys they have covering baseball alone. Gammons is a puppet for the nation, steve phillips hates NY because he sucked as Mets GM, Olney is a Boston hand-clapper and most of the guys on the baseball tonight crew ALWAYS have something derisive to say about the Yankees. ESPN shoule change the logo that sits in the lower left-hand corner of the screen to NESN because thats essentially what it has become.
coco crisp felt pain in his left hand swinging at a pitch and left today’s BoSux game…..AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW….
Thanks, SOS27. I simply can’t take it anymore…..
I used to just switch channels; now I sorta swear at the radio/television and THEN switch channels!
ESPN has been calling Boston ‘Titletown’ all day…
Ugh.
So what if its 6-1 since 2001?
(Pats:3, BoSox:2, Celts:1)
(Giants:1)
And thank god the Giants won when they did, otherwise the city of Boston would hold the ‘sports triple crown’, titles in the major 3 in the same year.
Ugh again!
I wonder if he’ll the suspension now
I wonder if he’ll take the suspension now*
Its okay.
The Yankees have Trey Wingo, Mike Greenberg and Stephen A Smith on their side at ESPN !
Doreen- Its gotten to the point where the only place I get my information is online, the bias is made too apparent IMO.
Oh wait, should we get our shot glasses ready? Fatty talking about how we need a starting pitcher….
Al from BK -
I never used to believe it. I thought people were being too sensitive, too Yankee-centric, and of course, ANY criticism of a person’s favorite team stings. But it’s just too much these days. Where’s the balance?
Well, I guess if you’re hated, you’re RELEVANT!
I wonder what the golf world thinks now (besides the sigh of relief at him being out for the season), given that Tiger with a broken leg still couldn’t be beaten.
Bronxbomber -
I guess the right response to that is: Who are they???!!!???
Thanks Fredo,
Then I’d have to say that Tiger’s performance this weekend was more clutch, more everything.
Tiger played 5 rounds of golf over 5 days of golf in a tourney in which the field was favored. He made 3 clutch eagle putts in that time. Jordan was ill, but Jordan also had teammates to take the pressure off of him and set him up in a game 5 of a game 7 series.
Broken leg trumps the flu. You can take medicine to alleviate flu symptons for a couple of hours.
The golf world should worry about TV ratings! I know I will tune in only for the majors and even that will be a snore without Tiger.
-dennis
Horne has 4 plus pitches, the only thing holding him back is his command. I think it is incredibly stupid, and condescending, and arrogant to make a statement like “ALL THE SCOUTS IN THE WORLD VIEW HORNE AS GARBAGE”.
But I guess thats to be expected when apparently everyone hear learns about prospects from who is on the Top 100 list, or I guess Keith Law and his ilke who see a prospect once and immediately decide their future.
“Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13)”
Thanks bro. It takes me from not being a morning person to an all smiles one. Except on days after Farns pitches and mornings after losses.
Very true but Stephen A. spends the majority of his air-time complaining about the Knicks.
Mel.
I skipped the gym this AM because my back was “sore”. I read the Tiger news and I felt like a piece of….
I agree. Tiger is the most Clutch.
-dennis
“Also, I’m probably reacting to the fact that every day more and more you have to hear about how wonderful the Boston Red Sox are – in fact, they’re practically FLAWLESS these days, dontcha know?”
Basically, they are. They’re what we were in the late 90′s, only they have a much deeper farm system and their pitching staff is young. Age, especially in the pitching, was the big thing that always spelled doom for our dynasty; they don’t have that hanging over their heads.
Their offensive core (Ortiz, Manny, Lowell) isn’t going to last much longer, but that’s easier to replace than the pitching. We managed to put together dominant offensive players after our O’Neill’s and Tino’s moved on, and that was with free agent signings because our farm system was barren.
Get used to them. They’re not going away anytime soon.
“ESPN has been calling Boston ‘Titletown’ all day…”
I wonder if that will change if we win the Series this year? Giants and Yankees in 09 vs. Celtics and 18-1. Who will be called title town?
Confucius-
You’re not helping…
“Even Buck Martinez, who I have always enjoyed listening to, seems to be in Red Sox heaven these days.”
I agree with your last post, especially the quoted sentence. Sometimes I like to listen to Baseball This Morning on XM during my morning commute. Buck is good and Mark Patrick is pretty knowledgeable as well. The other day though they were discussing the Yankees making a trade for Sabathia and Buck was saying how the Red Sox system is full of good prospects but he doens’t think the Yankees have much of anything. Patrick corrected him and said that the Yanks actually have a very good minor league system. It just seems like the perception out there is the Yankees have no farm system and the Sox are stacked top to bottom.
Dennis,
I only watch when Tiger or the Hawaii people play.
Michelle Wie (getting her groove back, finally!), Dean Wilson, Parker McClachlin, Kimberly Kim (the real deal). Otherwise, it’s like watching grass grow.
I’m now a fan of the Roc, though.
Confucius -
I understood that their farm system had more position players right now than the Yankee farm system, but that the Yankees were certainly deeper with pitching.
I would like to think that the Yankees are on the right track however.
The Nation hates the Nation.
Mel-
Could not agree more about Rocco. I became a huge fan after the Open.
-dennis
Patrick -
I heard that very broadcast on XM’s Baseball This Morning and when Martinez said what he did, my jaw literally dropped. If it wasn’t the replay session of it, I might have done a first for me and called in!!!! But Mark Patrick did correct him, at least.
LOL at 18-1
RANDOM BASEBALL FACT OF THE DAY: On September, 27th 1998 Mark Mcgwire hit his 70th home-run of the year off of none other than the “American Idle” himself Carl Pavano.
The Yankees havea phenom in Joba.. who in the red sox farm system compares..O i forget to add CMW is still very young
O.K. i have to put and end to what i started. Golf is a hobby and basketball is a sport. So MJ being clutch in a sport while having a 113 fever. Wins the tie breaker.
“Their offensive core (Ortiz, Manny, Lowell) isn’t going to last much longer, but that’s easier to replace than the pitching. ”
You’re really understating how difficult it’s going to be to replace Ortiz and Manny I think.
They’re going to have to replace two players who’ve been top 5 offensive players the past 5 years.
That’s not going to be easy to replace no matter how stacked their minor leagues may be with position players.
If anybody wants to barf visit the ESPN home page let me just give you a preview the words “CELTIC PRIDE” are uttered ughh I hate Boston!
SoS,
You’re so funny. MJ would be brain dead with a 113 fever. Tiger’s still the man and even MJ would say so.
How old is Drew and how long is his contract? He’s an absolute beast. Like .500 for the month of June.
What i think is soo funny is that no one thinks Golf is a sport. I want you guys to try to hit a golf ball 400 yards and straight. Come on, what tiger did was simply amazing!!
To replace argueably the best right handed hitter in the game and a hitter that is more clutch than he is. Isnt an easy task. Its not like they have 3 aces in their rotation.
They will miss that duo more than you think. We sure the hell wont.
I have to give it to Boston on one thing. Their young players this year seem to be stepping up more than ours. From Lester to Masterson to Lowry. Hope we can get some of our young studs healthy and up shortly.
What a piece of crap the NL is the Phils are the alleged best team and the SUX are owning them 7-2 what a disgrace. Sometimes I like to grab a sports almanac just for shiggles and read about 1919-2003 the golden years. For the love of God could we get back to that those were happy times.
I acknowledge golf as a sport it just bores me to tears. Even when tiger is in it I’d still rather mow the lawn or make a sandwich.
“SoS,
You’re so funny. MJ would be brain dead with a 113 fever. Tiger’s still the man and even MJ would say so.”
Even more amazing to do it while he was brain dead. O.k. close to 104 than 113. MJ is facing the most athletic players in sports. While Tiger is going against beer guts and dork dads. MJ is as classy as they get. Of coarse he isnt going to say he’s the best. Kobe take note.
My condolences. Question though(serious one). Would you have preferred the Lakers not making the championship after seeing those 2 embarrassing losses?
SOS – That is a great post and one which we should discuss. As an example, Masterson has pitched extremely well this year and is keeping the vaunted Phillies offense down today. Hughes (granted some issue do to injury) basically was very bad this year. Is Masterson better than Hughes? I don’t think many people will agree with the question, but yet he has played much better.
There were questions about comparing Lester and Kennedy and again Lester has been significantly better.
How does one accurately assess if some of these Red Sox players are truly better and living up to their status in the big leagues, if the Yankees prospects are overhyped, or if the Red Sox players manage the initial transition more smoothly.
You will note that Boston’s “best” prospect in Bucholz is now back on the farm working on his mechanics and that Bartolo “the savior” Colon is back on the DL, and that Cano may have a higher average than Pedroia in a few weeks.
I would have preferred the Celtics had to play a real Western conf. team like the Spurs or even the Hornets/Jazz that would have been better this was the worst most over-hyped finals in years.
It is absurd to compare MJ and Tiger. They both transcend their respective sport. Both are arguably the greatest of all time in their sport. Obviously basketball requires more athleticism but anyone that says Golf isn’t a sport or is easy just doesn’t know what they are talking about.
You know what really sucks is that Jason Varitek is going to be an all-star and hes batting .242 ughh!!!
“O.K. i have to put and end to what i started. Golf is a hobby and basketball is a sport. ”
correct. i play golf and like it, but it’s as much of a sport as darts or poker even. game of skill, not a sport. when you can drive around with a beer in the cupholder while you’re playing…….
but since you included tiger in your original list, i gotta give it to him.
Jason
Bartolo the saviour Colon are your words, not the words of Red Sox fans or Red Sox management. Colon was a no risk pick up for the Sox that one of the most noted contributors on this blog said that it would “be a miracle if he had four meaningful outings” this year. Well the miracle happened and even though he has a sore back he has filled in with the Sox nicely in several games which is all that was hoped for.
jason,
What eats me up is that it seems like everyday someone steps up and contributes for them. They get contributions by throw away players like Casey and Colon. Like Crisp who they were dieing to trade this off season. This again is not including their young players from the minors. When do we stop calling it luck. Maybe they have better evaluators than we do. Meaning that they know when the right time to bring a player up and when to take a chance on other peoples trash. Or maybe im just being blind right now with some of their flaws.
Ray- Not saying that you had said this but there were a few Sox fans bragging about how the Yanks missed out on Colon and how we must be so pissed that he is pitching great blah blah. He already stole Mo’s Cy Young I hate that fat bastid the pinstripes on him would be undeserving.
Ray – I agree some hyperbole on my part. But as SOS says it seems strange that the Red Sox have had people step up. Ortiz goes down and Drew goes from being a bust (yes I was in Boston for last years playoff performance) to being the White Papi.
That is the funadamental issue, do the Red Sox have better scouting, better players, better coaches, or better luck?
His name is Jared Diamond? You guys should call him ‘Galleria.’
I think you need to give Masterson a second time around the league before you come close to comparing him to Hughes. Advanced scouting and hitters have a way of adjusting. Time will tell..
-dennis
The Red Sox have luck that must only be God himself trying to make up for their 96 years of complete failure.
Al from BK -
you are extremely bitter towards Boston today, eh? its only sports and really not worth getting so upset about.
Sorry Rich I’m usually not an angry or bitter guy but this Celts praising has really sent me over the edge that along with the SUX winning big in Philly I am a bit frustrated. I cant remember when Boston last lost a series.
“I think you need to give Masterson a second time around the league before you come close to comparing him to Hughes.”
Some could reasonably argue we need to see Hughes get a 2nd time around the league before we can compare him to anyone.
Oh and one more thing. They go and pick up guys with a history of injuries like Drew and Beckett and they run them through the fountain of health. I guess as they say its better being lucky than good.
jason
Oh I figured you were using a little bit of hyperbole about Colon, and I actually did enjoy reading your informative post.
I can’t figure Drew out. With the exception of his grand slam during the playoffs he was a complete bust.
I fully expect that the Yankees will have some guys step up before the end of the year and things will get very competitive between the Yankees and Sox. Lately it seems like the Sox go ahead early in the year but the Yankees are right there at some point in the season.
I still remember a few years ago when your pitching staff was depleted and some guy named Small came up and won something like 8 straight games.
Aaron Small won 10 games and had 0 losses in 2005.
“You’re really understating how difficult it’s going to be to replace Ortiz and Manny I think.”
You’re overstating the need to replace them. The ease doesn’t just refer to providing a replacement of equal ability, it refers to the fact that an offense can still get by with average to above average pieces as long as the pitching staff is sharp. We never had a Manny or an Ortiz on our dynasty teams, but we had enough solid offensive players making contributions to get by; the Red Sox excel at collecting players of that mold (ie Lowell, Youkilis, Pedroia). Hell, the current Red Sox management doesn’t even really value Manny; they’ve been trying to get rid of him for years. Ortiz and Manny certainly push the RS offense to another level … but just look at how well it’s getting by now without Ortiz.
“Its not like they have 3 aces in their rotation.”
They’re awfully close. Beckett’s a proven ace, Matsuzaka is 8-0 and coming back soon, Lester was always a guy with frontline potential before the cancer bout and he’s having a great season, and Buccholz is viewed as a guy with frontline potential. All of them are 28 or younger. And they have backup plans waiting in the minors. Three aces may end up being a stretch, but how many teams even have one ace? They’re poised to have the best rotation in the sport for at least the next five years. And have one of the best closers in the sport, who is also under 28.
It may make you ill to realize it, but it’s going to take a lot of things going terribly wrong for that team to not be a World Series favorite for at least the next five years.
How long is Manny and Papi out for? anyone know?
“They’re awfully close. Beckett’s a proven ace, Matsuzaka is 8-0 and coming back soon, Lester was always a guy with frontline potential before the cancer bout and he’s having a great season, and Buccholz is viewed as a guy with frontline potential. All of them are 28 or younger.”
Not buying into Matsuzaka as an ace but I’m starting to worry Lester might be really good. 2.08 ERA and 1.11 WHIP in his last 10 starts.
“And have one of the best closers in the sport, who is also under 28.”
Craig Hansen? Speaking of Craig. Lets see if he makes this interesting.
BTW. Im not sold on Dice K. He will come back down to earth. Lester is a 3.
Doubt Ortiz plays before the Allstar break. Ramirez probably plays Friday since they can use the DH again.
Confucius -
Matsuzaka is a very lucky 8-0, though. He lives on the edge with his BBs and pitch counts.
And, as I said before –
you’re not helping here….
Fredo.
Good Point. It seems we have heard so much about Hughes that perhaps I bought into it after a nickname of “Franchise Phil” However he seems to have much better secondary stuff than Masterson. Again, time will tell.
-dennis
Very interesting.
I think Hughes definitely brings more to the table than Masterson, but he does have to kick this injury bug.
“you’re not helping here….
”
Hey, if they win the WS, doesn’t it help to say ‘well, they just had more talent than anyone else?’ If you underrate them, you might just be helping them reinforce that whole ‘scrappy underdog’ card they love to play up there.
Phillies just got two off Hansen 7-4 Sux.
My favorite player on the Sox is Hansen!! I love this guy!!
DelCarmen in to face the top of the order Rollins is up.
“My favorite player on the Sox is Hansen!! I love this guy!!”
Very Timlin-esque, that effort.
DelCarmen walked the MVP 2 on still no one out for Philly , Victorino up.
Confusius,
I dont think their bullpen is as strong as it was last year. Okajima has been really struggling this season. Thats one advantage we have over them this year. We are loaded with bullpen help in the minors this year. I can see that being a difference maker by years end.
Confucius –
Don’t get logical.
Seriously, I know the Red Sox are a good team and they won the WS last season and they are playing well this season so they are are naturally, so far, the favorites for this year. Heck, they’ve earned that. But I won’t go so far as to grant them that status in perpetuity.
Lets go Chase!! Get #23.
We play the Padres they play the Phillies away and now we need to sweep in order to get another game on them.
I really had high hopes that the Phillies would take at least 2 of 3 but these damn Redsox must watch the scoreboard or something cause everytime we make up a little ground they go on a 4 game tear…
;-(
“I dont think their bullpen is as strong as it was last year.”
Middle relief is their one weakness (though, again, this isn’t an area where they’re lagging far behind most teams in baseball), especially since the only relief prospects they’ve shown (Hansen and Delcarmen) have been their only farm system flops.
But they still have the guy at the back, and that counts for a lot. Just that one guy can shrink an important game down to 7 innings for the starter.
Howard struck out swinging that fat idiot is on pace to K 250 times.
the mj v’s tiger argument. I don’t think you can argue this. One man plays a sport by only my definition and the other plays a game. For me, playing against yourself, mastering everything that gets in the way of doing so, makes it a game. A sporting event for me means not only do you play yourself to degrees, you have other persons places or things dedicated to preventing you from doing what is needed to be done. I don’t actually know which is more difficult, but mj often played in pain I would think, he also had an entire team hanging on his leg so to speak. while he tried to do his job. tiger was in pain no doubt, and needed to gut it out and make the adjustments to get it done. not a small feat, for a very difficult game, as good as he is likely the best ever, he doesn’t have anyone paid a gazillion dollars to keep him from succeeding. the award has to go to mj, and I hate Basketball worse than golf.