Today in The Journal News
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- June
- 23
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The Yankees outlasted the rain and finally beat the Reds. Brian Heyman has the story.
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The mini vacation ends today. It’s the last day of school for my niece and I’m picking her up in about an hour. She has survived the many rigors of second grade, it seems.
Quite a life the kid leads. The end of school means the start of assorted camps, extra time on the backyard water slide and more days of being spoiled by her grandparents. Sign me up for that.
The Yankees are off today and open a three-game series in Pittsburgh tomorrow. Clearly they’ll need to pitch around Doug Mientkiewicz.
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Hey, Sal Fasano is back. Second-best mustache in the big leagues.
As anybody with an ounce of common sense knows, nothing tops the mystical powers of The Big G’s ’stache.
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on Monday, June 23rd, 2008 at 11:08 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
wow. i’ve never had the first post before.
i dont know what to say.
hi everyone.
lame.
“lame”
thanks keith.
Pete, tell your niece third grade is a breeze. She can pretty much take the year off.
I miss Doug’s D at 1st…
“Skippy
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Pete, tell your niece third grade is a breeze. She can pretty much take the year off.”
Skippy, the world doesn’t need another Pavano.
Sorry, Zach, just grumpy today…. weekend was too good, work is too bad…
Am I the only one with growing concern that our focus on pitching has led us to forsake position players? I know everyone loves Gardner but what do we have for middle infield? I think if someone was breathing down Cano’s neck he may respond and frankly Jeet shows his age from time to time.
I probably should be shot for saying this but I’d like to see Jeet play 1B some day and bring up someone with some speed and better D to play SS in the coming years. Angelini?
Really Jeet should move to 3rd and ARod to 1B but I don’t see that happening.
kind of bringing this over from the other post but I read that Aceves is going to be a back of the rotation starter at best… I also read that this was a bad thing? how is having a consistent number 5 guy a bad thing..?
TGFizeek-
I agree with your views on Jeter losing his stuff at SS and needing a new position (maybe 1st?) but, from what I have heard that sounds like what is going to happen to Montero… I know everyone thinks he is the “catcher of the future” but seriously I just think he is too big and they will have to convert him to 1st… so that leaves a ton of problems… maybe jete in the OF…?
Words cannot express what I was feeling when reading the NY Daily News this morning and seeing an article on the possible savior of the NY Yankees–Bronson Arroyo.
Pete the Pirates can hit! I had them in my 13 run pool. It took them until about 3 weeks ago to be shut out. Don’t let them fool you.
“I also read that this was a bad thing? how is having a consistent number 5 guy a bad thing..?”
its not a bad thing, but he’s really not yet a proven back of the rotation guy at the MLB level. so if thats his ceiling, and really the best he can accomplish projectability wise, then it really limits his overall value to the team, because he’s only one step away from falling out of the rotation and into a bullpen or organizational guy.
S.A., link? any substance to it?
Why does Jeter need to move? He’s playing fine at SS this season. Its a mistake to assume any player is going to switch positions, that goes for Montero, Jeter, etc.
“Am I the only one with growing concern that our focus on pitching has led us to forsake position players?”
I think you’re misinterpreting the presence of lots of pitching and a dearth of position players.
I see it more as a byproduct of the lot in life of a team that hasn’t had high first round picks in ages and ages. You’re just not going to get near-MLB position talent when you’re in the Yankee draft positions. You have to pick young toolsy guys and hope they work out. That takes time. And, they drafted badly until about 3 or 4 years ago. You can take a flier on a risky pitcher that might work out (see: Joba), but position playing talent is so much less risky that those guys go before the Yanks can take them. Similarly with international signings, you get them so young that it takes a long time for them to percolate up. If they’d been doing well in the draft and the international market 6 years ago, you’d see talent in AA/AAA right now. But they weren’t.
“Its a mistake to assume any player is going to switch positions, that goes for Montero, Jeter, etc.”
especially considering there isnt a viable option for Jeter’s replacement in the system in the near future.
“Why does Jeter need to move? He’s playing fine at SS this season.”
That’s been quite the surprise, given his trends over recent years. His bat is too weak to support 3B these days anyhow.
TurnTwo-nothing of substance, pretty much fluff. Just discussing there were/are some trade rumors about him. He can thank Mike Francesa for that.
http://tinyurl.com/67zqyz
Montero is almost certain to move. He’s not a very good catcher and he’s not really built for it. Terrific bat, but 1B seems likely.
As long as Jeter can be an average SS, which I think he has been, I’m alright keeping him there as long as he wants.
Jeter’s SS play has improved dramatically this year. There is no reason for him to move.
As far as Aceves, one of the biggest mistakes scouts (especially internet scouts) make is projecting players long term.
They are especially bad with pitchers.
Its easy to spot front of the rotation guys like Joba, Verlander, etc.
Its much tougher to project touch and feel guys like Aceves.
On a team like the Yankees, if he can become a solid #4 or #5 starter down the line, he has great value. It means they can put their pitching money to a front of the rotation guy because they would have a cost controlled guy at the back end of the rotation. Those guys are valuable to big market teams.
I don’t know what his ceiling is. I saw him pitch once and was more impressed with him that I have been with other guys getting more PR. He has a feel for pitching and, unlike a lot of harder throwers, can throw to both sides of the plate.
I had heard last week Sunday was supposed to be his last start in AA. I don’t know if he got called up to Scranton but I heard that is supposed to be coming shortly.
If that’s the case, he may be a guy to look for after the AS Break if Giese can’t hold up as the 5th starter.
Jeter will come around with the bat. So far in June he’s putting up closer to what we expect from him: .301/.370/.410
His career numbers are a bit higher but he’s showing an upwards trend so I expect him to improve more in July.
“Montero is almost certain to move. He’s not a very good catcher and he’s not really built for it. Terrific bat, but 1B seems likely.”
He’s 18. Of course he’s not that great at catching. I know he’s big, but what I’ve been reading this season is that he’s pretty agile back there for someone his size and that scouts are becoming less certain that he’ll need to move. It’s still certainly possible that he’ll have to, but the Yankees will give him every chance to stick at catcher because he’ll be soooo much more valuable there.
I think it’s time to DFA Moeller and bring Shelley back for the Pirates series. It’s too soon to give up on him. While everyone seems to like Moeller, he is not a part of this team’s future, neither short term or long.
Moeller should be DFA’ed I agree but I don’t want Shelley back on the team. Call up Jason Lane or something
“His career numbers are a bit higher but he’s showing an upwards trend so I expect him to improve more in July.”
I hope so. He really needs to start producing more doubles.
“I think it’s time to DFA Moeller and bring Shelley back for the Pirates series. It’s too soon to give up on him.”
Shelley’s 28, has huge holes in his swing, and isn’t a very good defender at 1B anyway. He had his shot, and isn’t anyone the Yanks need to be making room for.
I wish Miranda was righty…
What about Austin Romaine, he is a catcher right?
Cervilli, the guy who hurt his wrist cause the Rays suck, is a defensive guy who could very well take over teh backup catcher after Molina’s contract is up.
The thing about the draft with position players. All the good position players get taken at the top because they are more likely to succeed. Pitchers are more risky and have more injuries in general. For the Yankees, at the bottom of the draft, the best talent are pitchers with question marks. Good position players are hard to find where the Yankees draft and so teh Yanks need to get lucky finding position players and the international signings are tough because the players are like 16, way too young to figure them out.
“What about Austin Romaine, he is a catcher right?”
Yeah, he and Montero have been splitting time at DH and C in low-A ball in order to get them both catching experience while giving them plenty of ABs.
Romine and Montero have been splitting the catching duties in Charlestown. Romine missed some time with injury, but is playing pretty well as I hear it.
Until they know for sure Posada’s shoulder will hold up, I don’t see Moeller going anywhere.
In an ideal world, carrying 3 catchers wouldn’t be a good move.
However, when your starting catcher is playing with a torn rotator cuff and an injured labrum, I think the Yankees are going to play it on the cautious side.
I don’t think Shelley is going to be back until they expand the rosters to 40 men in September. Right now, he doesn’t have a role with the team.
Betemit is the backup first baseman and Matsui is the 4th OF. Where does he fit?
Even if they DFA Moeller, they can pick up a better bench option than Shelley at the trade deadline.
“Until they know for sure Posada’s shoulder will hold up, I don’t see Moeller going anywhere”
Isn’t realistic to think that they won’t know for sure on Posada’s shoulder this season?
BTW, congrats to Austin Jackson for once again appearing on BA’s Prospect Hot Sheet.
Mientkiewicz is hitting .346 this month – I had to check since peter said we would be pitching around him – hehe. Maybe we should kept him afterall! I actually liked him last year. Maybe I was in the minority.
As for Giambi’s stache… It was very thick and dark in color yesterday – it’s he talk of the sports world – I think it’s so funny how much notice is he getting for that (Uh, other than the fact he is hitting like .350 in the last month!) Keep the stache Giambi and keep up the good work.
Fredo,
Yes. That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if Moeller stayed with the team the rest of the season.
“Mientkiewicz is hitting .346 this month – I had to check since peter said we would be pitching around him – hehe. Maybe we should kept him afterall! I actually liked him last year. Maybe I was in the minority.”
Would you also have been ok with his April line of .225/.326/.300? Or his May line of .191/.309/.298?
Oh please stop w/ the Mientkiewicz nonsense he is still a bum when it comes to hitting.
vs. Left: .200 vs. Right: .255
What the hell is it w/ some of you a bum hitters like Andy Philips and Dougie M…
Would you also have been ok with his April line of .225/.326/.300? Or his May line of .191/.309/.298?
It’s amazing to me he has one good month from the result of 25 AB and people think he all the sudden turned into Chipper Jones or something.
I think the Yankees should keep Moeller. For one thing, Posada has the tear in his whatchamacallit, and while Jose Molina is an excellent back up, he can’t play every single game.
Doug Mientkeicantspellhisname might not be the biggest threat with the bat (though I miss his defense!), but Nate McLouth is having an all-star season and there are a couple others that can hit, as well. This team is not a pushover.
As for the ’stache…hey, if it works, I can’t complain.
I still think it’s hysterical how we all (yeah, me too) wanted him DFA’d back in April. Just goes to show you how long the season really is.
brandon,
It’s probably a lot like you with threets. you like what the guy brings to the table, despite his obvious short comings. i like mink’s D despite his cold bat, though every once and a while he’ll hit pretty well.
“Betemit is the backup first baseman and Matsui is the 4th OF. Where does he fit?”
It’d be nice to rest Bobby one game on Friday via Shelley. If he gets the call and does zilch over the next 7 games, they can go with a long man in the pen for a while. Moeller’s good season up to date notwithstanding, I’d rather risk giving Shelley one more chance.
“i like mink’s D despite his cold bat, though every once and a while he’ll hit pretty well.”
I like his D. I just realize that a lefty bat as impotent as his essentially negates his value. You can’t afford to spot start him over Giambi, really, and a late-innings defensive replacement at 1B just really doesn’t add a lot of value.
“I’d rather risk giving Shelley one more chance.”
Why? He’s done nothing to imply that he’ll bring any value.
wsr except my guy would be a minor league signing and then have Rafael Chaves work w/ him. Just check his stats in AAA he’s improving since he’s been called down, to get a LH reliever w/ a high upside was the reason I targeted a guy like Threets, has all the arsenal in the world but needs control. And Rafael Chaves in AAA has worked wonders w/ MLB players looking for retooling.
whozat,
I’m with you on Duncan. I don’t want to see him in the bigs again this year.
And to pick up on something from last night, I disagree with you about Ponson. His WHIP (1.56) and BAA (.307) in Texas were awful. He’s not a good pitcher. If you call him up to pitch a game, you’re basically saying, “We are throwing this one away.” And if you’re going to do that, you might as well avoid a 40-man roster move. Igawa can be awful just as easily as Ponson can.
“Why? He’s done nothing to imply that he’ll bring any value.”
He had a good year last year both at AAA and in the majors. While he has been putrid this year, this last interleague stretch may be his last chance to get ABs with the Yankees. As SJ mentioned above, he’s behind Matsui in the OF and Betemit at 1B on the depth chart. I’d rather have him take a PH AB against Marte over Moeller this week.
I would love to know what Mientkiewicz has paid people to get them to advocate for him. The guy is not the answer, no matter how well he plays first.
“Hey, Sal Fasano is back. Second-best mustache in the big leagues.”
Guess who will pick up Chad Moeller if the Yankees DFA him? I agree, keep Moeller for insurance and convince Posada to play some first base as well as DH. Matsui’s left knee did not look good yesterday, so expect some downtime from him throughout the season.
BTW, did anyone hear the conversation by the YES broadcasters (Kay/Cone/Flash) about the Giambi’s mustache and how much darker it appeared from the day before? Priceless!
Maybe a touch of “Just For Men” for the Giambino. I can just envision Walt Frazier and Keith Hernandez with Giambi now!
americanbear, Moeller has better numbers in the Majors this year than Duncan. What has Duncan done to earn a spot on the Yanks? Nothing.
This made me laugh:
New York Yankees (80)
New Joba Rule: He starts, the Yankees don’t lose. Been obeyed his last three turns. One of these days, Chamberlain himself may actually win a game. No surprise to see them power back. “For approximately the 14th time in the past seven or eight years,” reminds Cardinals reporter Matthew Leach, “they were written off too early.” So, says Angels reporter Lyle Spencer, “Here come the boogeymen.”
Last week: 11 (17)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/fab_fifteen.jsp
“wsr except my guy would be a minor league signing and then have Rafael Chaves work w/ him.”
No, Brandon…he wouldn’t have been. He would have required a spot on the 25-man roster. And, now, the Giants have no incentive to trade him.
i don’t think anyone is advocating mink as ‘the answer.’ I actually don’t think he has a spot on the team as currently constructed, with the necessary 3 catchers, restricted bullpen guys, etc. I’m just saying that i can understand why people defend him. it was great watching him pick throws that this year have turned into errors. it was also nice watching a 1b who could actually throw to 2b. i’ve always been a big proponent of defense. a run saved is close to equal to a run scored. missing easy outs is as frustrating to me as not getting a guy in from 3rd.
“His WHIP (1.56) and BAA (.307) in Texas were awful.”
Yes, but his GB% was way up, and his opponents SLG was down. So, he’s giving up lots of groundball singles. Meh.
His FIP and xFIP were both around 4 (that’s a measure of expected runs given up per game, agnostic to team defense). If he can give a few starts like that, I’m game.
“Oh please stop w/ the Mientkiewicz nonsense he is still a bum when it comes to hitting.
vs. Left: .200 vs. Right: .255″
“Oh please stop w/ the Mientkiewicz nonsense he is still a bum when it comes to hitting.”
Betemit’s 2008 splits:
Vs. RHP – .266 BA .342 OBP
vs. LHP – .235 BA .280 OBP
Mientkiewicz’s 2008 splits
Oh please stop w/ the Mientkiewicz nonsense he is still a bum when it comes to hitting.
“wsr except my guy would be a minor league signing and then have Rafael Chaves work w/ him.”
Except it’s been explained to you about 2 dozen times that Threets would have had to be on the MAJOR league roster.
If you lose Moeller via the DFA needed to make a roster move, Chris Stewart is the third catcher.
Sorry but Shelley Duncan’s percieved value (if he hits at all) is not worth the risk of having Chris Stewart as the third (second if Posada is injured again) catcher for the rest of the year.
Ponson is pitching for one reason. They have nobody else.
Igawa is awful. Horne is just back from 6 weeks on the DL and isn’t ready. McCutchen gave up 3 HR’s in his last start and also isn’t ready yet. Marquez hasn’t pitched well and is on the DL, Aceves hasn’t pitched at all in AAA and Karstens has pitched well in one game since his return.
Its process of elimination and Ponson is the guy for one start. If he pitches well, they can talk about another start.
If he doesn’t, he’s gone. Since he’s a 6th starter at this point, it isn’t a big deal.
Sorry about that:
Betemit’s 2008 splits:
Betemit’s 2008 splits:
Vs. RHP – .266 BA .342 OBP
vs. LHP – .235 BA .280 OBP
Mientkiewicz’s 2008 spliBetemit’s 2008 splits:
vs. RHP – .271 BA .359 OBP
vs. LHP – .266 BA .359 OBP
Doug is a far superior defensive first basemen, a warrior on the field, and a much better teammate. Not so far-fetched to me.
Mientkiewicz’s 2008 splits:
I was hoping Farnsy broke his hand but God isn’t that nice!
When’s either Justin Christian or Brett Gardner coming up? And where’s David Robertson! So many good options down there…
“And if you’re going to do that, you might as well avoid a 40-man roster move. Igawa can be awful just as easily as Ponson can.”
they’ve already made the roster move, right? Steven White cleared waivers and stayed with the Yankees.
there is an open spot for the time being.
Ponson will likely be awful, but the spot on the 40 man is a non-issue for now.
i think i’d give Ponson the start over Igawa. you are right, Ponson’s peripherals in Texas were poor, but he was throwing a lot of groundballs. could he have changed his approach and developed a decent sinker?
i don’t know. it’s possible i guess.
for one start, it’s worth the gamble.
whozat, you are being optimistic. The guy has a TERRIBLE history as a pitcher going back to 2004. 2007 WHIP: 1.885. 2006: 1.694. 2005: 1.726. 2004: 1.54. He struck out 25 guys in 55 innings this year! The LAST thing we need is a guy giving up hit after hit after hit. And, to make room on the 40-man for him.
And none of that even addresses the fact that he’s a horrible teammate.
It’s an embarassment to the Yankees that he’s even under consideration. The Yankees are a class organization. Lines should be drawn. And hell, if you’re going to bend the rules for a guy, he should at least be within striking distance of mediocre!
This is a sad, sad moment in Yankee history.
No, Brandon…he wouldn’t have been. He would have required a spot on the 25-man roster. And, now, the Giants have no incentive to trade him.
How much do they really think through trade market they would get for him. And Erick is 26 whozat I know what your saying they have no reason to let him go now that he can be sent up and down between AAA and MLB but he’s a guy they would trade. I agree at that waiver period it would make no sense I didn’t know he’d have to be added to the 25 man instead of the 40 man but now that he is not on the 40 man he has lost value and could be dealed for cheap.
who cares about mientkiewicz, why is anyone talking about him.
So I guess maybe I’m the only one that’s impressed that we’ve lost 3/5ths of our starting rotation, possibly for the season, and we’re still only 3.5 games out of the Wild Card?
how can we possible still be talking about Erick Threets?
and why are we arguing about perceived value between Minky and Shelley Duncan and Chad Moeller. think about it, how much do these guys really matter at this point?
none of these guys are going to be the reason this team wins or loses. if we’re worrying about Shelley Duncan’s production off the bench, we’re screwed in more ways than one.
SJ, I don’t disagree with your analysis of the Yanks’ pitching options. Where I disagree is in two ways. First, I don’t think Ponson is any better than Igawa or Karstens. That isn’t a compliment to those guys, it’s just that Ponson has been a horrendous pitcher since 2004. Second, the harm, as you asked, is that this guy is a blight on the team. Do you want him around Joba and the other young guys? What kind of example is he?
SJ, you’ve been saying all year (and I’ve agreed) that this is a transitional year meant to develop the young guys. Ponson does not fit into that model. I’m not a fan of Karstens, but he has a roster spot, let’s see what he can do? If he gets lit up (which he probably would) you have that much extra info to go on. And, if you have Igawa still on the roster, isn’t this the time to use him? Again, he’ll get killed, but so will Ponson.
I just don’t get it. To me, having Ponson in the organization is indefinsible on every front.
Doug M. stinks. Betemit is younger and he is definitely a better hitter than Doug. As for Ponson, I thought it was an okay move. Why not take a flyer on him? He has past ML success at least. I hope we can weather the storm till Wang comes back, I don’t want to give up our prospects for a rental.
Rebecca, agreed! there’s definately room for being realistically optimistic. just gotta hope the offense can stay consistent.
“This is a sad, sad moment in Yankee history.”
give me a break.
Kim Jones has a q&a now. This one caught my eye, although I think people are finally realizing this about Mussina.
LathamJoe Bet’s been playing part time, Dougie actual has played full games
Mientki: 57 G 126 AB vs Bet: 30 G 64 AB
please man Mientki is not better than Betemit. We can also go by his LD %
Mientki 19.5 %
Bet 29.8 %
Meaning Bet hits legit screamers, Mienti doesn’t
“Second, the harm, as you asked, is that this guy is a blight on the team. Do you want him around Joba and the other young guys? What kind of example is he?”
if Ponson even looks at a teammate sideways, he’ll be cut so fast he won’t know what hit him.
does anyone here ACTUALLY think that Ponson will be around long enough to be a “blight” or a bad example?
does anyone think the Yankees will put up with even the slightest bit of nonsense?
i think you are making something out of nothing.
let’s remember that Milton Bradley’s “character issues” lead Torre to veto his acquisition last season. he’d sure look good in pinstripes this year, no?
The rapid dog is addressing the break up now.
“let’s remember that Milton Bradley’s “character issues†lead Torre to veto his acquisition last season. he’d sure look good in pinstripes this year, no?”
Didn’t he cry because some reporter mocked him in the stands? I’d stay away from guys like these.
All he is saying his contract isn’t up yet.
Wow. Actually impressed crazy dog is bringing up the “break-up”
Easter through May 9th-Him and Fatcessa were having issues….
Why would the Yankees trade for him? He already stinks now, what does anyone think would happen 2 years from now!? 11 million for Bronson in 2 years. That is a joke!
Wow. Actually impressed crazy dog is bringing up the “break-upâ€
Whats the “break-up” ?
He is so transparent!
If they’re actually bringing it up, it means there’s some truth to the rumor.
“Easter through May 9th-Him and Fatcessa were having issues…”
- Who cares, that show stinks.
he had to make some kind of statement…whether you believe him or not…
“Didn’t he cry because some reporter mocked him in the stands? I’d stay away from guys like these.”
yes, but he’s also been one of the best hitters in baseball.
my point is that i am fairly certain that the moral outrage over a player’s personality is inversely proportional to their production on the field.
Patrick(the good one): Regarding this story Neil Best had:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....2426.story
Mad dog doesn’t realize that being under contract MEANS NOTHING!! Willie was under CONTRACT. They could fire him or he can walk away.
hmmm, two HUGE differences between Ponson and Bradley. First, Bradley has always produced on the field, Ponson hasn’t. Second, Bradley’s issues have, mostly, not involved teammates. Fans, announcers, etc. Ponson’s teammates hate him.
Look, I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t have gone after Bradley. I’m saying it’s a disgrace that Ponson is in the system.
Why give him the chance to look sideways at someone?
Make fun all you want, I expect more for the Yanks and it it’s a sad day for Yankee fans that this guy is in the mix. It’s a Mets move, not a Yanks move.
Bradley plays sober, Ponson doesn’t.
Karstens has pitched horribly until yesterday. Igawa is just awful. They weren’t options for Friday night.
I could care less about Ponson’s supposed character issues.
Were folks broken up over having Gooden and Strawberry on the team? Both those guys (especially Gooden) had issues far worse than Ponson.
He’s there for one start. If he pitches well, perhaps he gets another start.
They don’t have anybody else to make the start. If the guy can pitch well for one game, what’s the big deal? Its worrying over something that has no impact on the overall team in the long run. Its filling a start because they don’t have anybody else to make it.
If you recall, Ian Kennedy was supposed to be ready to make the start. However, his “minor” (as said by the Yankees when he first got hurt) injury has turned out to be taking longer than expected to come back.
You do what you have to do to cover a start. Much as it was a few years ago when they last tried Ponson.
Its a complete no risk deal for the Yankees.
The interesting thing that he neglected to bring up is that it is Mike whose contract is soon expiring.
And of course he (Russo) is not going to walk away from the contract unless WFAN buys him out or there is a buy out provision in the contract.
Seems to me from the reading the story that this MAY be a contract ploy from Francesa. Also isnt the whole point when you have a two person show in sports talk radio that you do tend to disagree on issues. If they always agreed on everything the show would be quite bland. It is when they have personal issues that the show suffers not when they disagree on who to trade, ortiz vs manny etc
Great to see Pettitte pitching so well again, I actually wouldn’t be that surprised if he continued with the Yankees through 2010 alongside Jeter, Rivera, and Posada, and finishes up with 250+ wins–if that happens he’ll be a borderline HOF candidate as Moose is now, plus he has the rings and the 20 win seasons. Andy seems really happy when talking to the press these days and comes across so hyper-competitive that it’s hard for me to imagine him walking away while he knows he’s healthy and can still get people out. As much as he’s family man and wants to stay home, I always thought Houston sucking so badly in 2006 was the major factor why he was considering retirement, and he just seems a lot happier in New York.
Ponson won’t be corrupting Joba. Coming soon to a stadium near you:
“The Ponson in the Plastic Bubble”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....tic_Bubble
SJ, we see things so differently, I think.
Gooden and Strawberry were liked. They had drug problems. Does anyone like Ponson?
And, as bad as Igawa and Karstens are, I have two questions: Is Ponson measurably better? Is it enough of a difference to justify bringing in a bad guy?
The whole thing makes zero sense from my point of view.
Yup it’s called contract talks see Fatboy has not signed an extension so if WFAN gives him a flat price and it’s not to his liking guess what “I’m going on vacation” meaning call me when you meet my price, Fruity pebbles here is waiting till Mike signs his contract before he starts negotiating a price.
This is the same guy that dissed players for wanting too much money..funny…
I don’t see what the big deal is with Ponson. Like SJ says, he’s only here to start one of the double header games and after that he will either earn an extra start or be gone. Kei Igawa or Sidney Ponson? At least Ponson gives the team a CHANCE to win.
Ponson won’t be corrupting young Joba.
Coming to a stadium near you:
“The Ponson in the Plastic Bubble”
http://tinyurl.com/52gqgb
lapdog rejects arroyo while mike is away…
Bronson Arroyo is not the answer? Oh boy Russo, I hope fatcessa wasn’t listening…this will not help your relationship with him.
“hmmm, two HUGE differences between Ponson and Bradley. First, Bradley has always produced on the field, Ponson hasn’t.”
right, thank you for proving my point.
you are only up in arms over Ponson’s past b/c he isn’t that good of a player.
seems a little hypocritical.
like SJ44 said, we were perfectly willing to overlook Gooden and Strawberry’s past as long as they were productive.
Everybody’s worried about Ponson’s “character issues”. Funny, neither Cashman nor Girardi are showing their concern. If Ponson goes out and pitches 6-7 shutout innings – the complaints about his “character issues” will grow less and less.
The late Steve Howe…you all LOVED him when he was winning for the Yankees, I’ll bet?????
BTW for the record I love how Wilson is swinging the bat right now and he’s even cut down on his strike out totals. Hopefully he continues reading the offspeed at the right time and just crush that fastball. You’d think a guy w/ a 29 percent line drive percentage would get some love here.
And yes Bronso Arroyo still sucks
Mitch,
You are worried about Ponson “influencing” younger players.
You don’t think somebody smoking crack cocaine is a bad influence? That’s what Gooden was doing in his time in NY.
The Yankees have brought in guys with checkered reputations for years.
Randy Johnson, Gary Sheffield, Mel Hall, Canseco, Gooden and Strawberry. The list goes on and on.
Its one start. That’s all it is and yes, he is MUCH better than Karstens or Igawa. If the guy could keep his nose out of the bottle, he could actually help a team.
He still throws in the low-mid 90’s and the bite on his slider was back in his few starts in Texas.
Its not high school. Teams don’t have popularity contests to see which short term solution fits into a team.
Look at the Yankees history. They have always looked to heal the sick. Even if its for a short period of time.
They needed a guy for a start and Ponson was the best option since the guys in their system were either hurt or not ready.
Thats so nice that you play such in active role in the upbringing of your niece. Good for you Pete!
Its amazing how quickly they grow. My daughter just graduated Kindergarten Friday. Won the ‘best artist’ award and ‘best reader’ award for her class.
Such a proud parent!
Is Sosnick Dontrelle Willis’ agent as well? Or am I mistaken. I read a great story about D-Train’s agent a few years back, but forgot his name.
Just curious, if anyone knows…
hmmm, I never once claimed it was only about Ponson’s character. Actually, if you go back, I stressed his horrible numbers, and then added that it only adds to it that he’s a bad guy.
My point is, there is no upside. Bad player, bad guy, shouldn’t be a Yankee. We’re not the Mets.
SJ, I disagree he’s an upgrade. He hasn’t had a WHIP under 1.5 since 2003. Even this year, his WHIP in Texas was 1.5 and his BAA was .307.
And Mel Hall had to be jettisoned before he did any more damage to a young, sensitive Bernie Williams. Hall is an example of why it’s not worth brining Ponson in.
My point is, there is no upside. Bad player, bad guy, shouldn’t be a Yankee. We’re not the Mets.
What does this mean ? Wasn’t Jimmy Letritz a Yankee a little too cocky don’t ya think ?
“Is Sosnick Dontrelle Willis’ agent as well?”
I believe he is
Mitch,
He’s a better pitcher than both Jeff Karstens and Kei Igawa. Its not even close.
How about Gooden? You don’t think having a guy on the team who was still smoking crack isn’t a problem? Gooden played longer on the Yankees than Ponson will be here.
Its a non-issue. Worrying about who is getting one start is the same about worrying about who the 25th guy on the team is. They are both a waste of time.
Neither issue is going to determine the path of the Yankees season.
Mitch, the upside is that the Yanks need someone to make the start on Friday and, having weighed the pros and cons, think that Ponson will give the team the best chance of winning the game or at least eating some innings.
Even if Ponson bombs, we won’t have a way of knowing if one of the other options would have done any better. But that won’t stop anybody from saying so anyway.
No one agrees with every move the team makes, but my gut tells me the franchise will survive this Ponson appearance.
Brandon, it means that it’s a low-class, low-upside move bringing in Ponson. Let the Mets be the circus in town, doing things to make their fans ashamed. I like that the Yanks are the team that usually do things right.
“My point is, there is no upside. Bad player, bad guy, shouldn’t be a Yankee. We’re not the Mets.”
i don’t even disagree with you about his numbers. he probably won’t amount to anything.
but i don’t agree with this notion that only the Mets have signed the “bad guys” over the years. the Yankees have had MORE than their share.
the Yankees are a great franchise that has consistently won on the field for decades. i have rooted for them for my entire life.
what i don’t have to do is pretend that the Yankees have some sort of moral superiority over other teams. they don’t.
“I like that the Yanks are the team that usually do things right.”
but where are you getting this from? it’s nonsense.
People can change when big events happen. I’m not saying that this will be the case with Ponson, but this could be such a time for him. If its one start and gone, no harm was really done. If he does well enough to get another start and he gives no problems, then so much the better.
Mitch and Doc Gooden was crackhead, while Strawberry was the same, Strawberry mentored Derek Jeter in his career, Doc Gooden had alot to do w/ mentoring Andy, so what do you mean not the Yankees
I just don’t like Ponson because I donn’t buy that he is a good pitcher and out of all people wanted to fight Ron Washington after a bad pitched game and getting skipped in the rotation for it.
SJ and Nick, I didn’t once say that the franchise wouldn’t survive, nor did I say that it would affect the course of the season.
My point was that it’s a move that doesn’t make me proud to be a Yankee fan, and it’s a move I wish the team didn’t make. And, most of all, it’s a move that, to me, makes zero sense.
And SJ, I’m not convinced that there is a measurable difference between Ponson and Igawa and Karstend. All have awful numbers. Getting lit up is getting lit up.
I’m kind of shocked that saying that Sidney Ponson shouldn’t be a Yankee is a controversial statement eliciting such opposition. The guy has put up awful, awful numbers the last FIVE seasons, and he was kicked off of his team two weeks ago for his behavior. Why would anyone take his side in this debate?
Mitch–
Were you not proud last year when they team brought Ponson in to pitch. He had the same issues then that he has now.If I recall as well he caused absolutely no problems whatsoever while he was here. You did not hear anyone complain and as far as I can tell didnt have a bad effect on anyone.
If you don’t like Ponson fine, but don’t BS me about it not being a Yankee way. David Wells was a fat big mouth/alcoholic. Doc and Darryl were crackheads went through rehab and were big reasons for the 96′ title.
hmmm, calling something I’ve said “nonsense” is not a convincing argument. If write back, “It’s awsome,” is that any better?
I feel like the Yanks have avoided Mets-like circuses. The way that the Steibrenner stood behind Gooden and Strawberry, helping them with jobs (both worked in the front office while trying to work out their demons) is the kind of class move the Yanks make.
I also feel like they generally avoid guys with bad reputations, and when they take a chance, there is some basis for it. Many people on this board don’t like Sheff, but his teammates liked him. And he was Gooden’s nephew, so there was some connection there. Someone brought up Canseco, which, if you recall, was a botched move. The Yanks put a claim in to block him, and ended up having to take him.
I don’t feel the Yanks are morally superior, but I do think there is a sense in the organization that being a Yankee means something, and that feeling has driven moves, which is a good thing. It would be hard for a Met fan to make the same argument.
So, you may not agree with me, hmmm, but you’ll forgive me if I don’t find your “nonsense” argument to be so compelling that I’ll change my opinion.
The Tank is strongly disliked by numerous people.. haha.. They all are giving Russo compliments left and right, perhaps Fatesca is listening and will understand they its time for him to leave the station and the dog alone for good, and stick his arrogant ass in Parcell’s pants.
Gayle,
I was not happy when the Yanks picked him up last time. But he’s had two years of bad pitching and two years of pissing people off (three teams have waived him since the Yanks did), so, yes, I’m proportionately more pissed off now.
Mitch,
You are being very nieve about the business of baseball.
The Yankees have brought in guys over the years who would make Sidney Ponson look like a choirboy.
Hell, they have had a couple of guys on the team in recent years who could drink Ponson under the table.
Teams do what they do to get through a season.
Bringing in Sidney Ponson for a start has nothing to do with the Yankees moral compass. It has to do with finding somebody to make an unscheduled DH start. That’s it.
If you have no moral outrage over somebody like Doc Gooden, I don’t see how you can have moral outrage over Sidney Ponson.
Even after Gooden stopped playing for the Yankees, while as an employee of the team, he was on the streets in Tampa buying crack cocaine.
You think that’s a good thing?
The Yankees have brought in guys who have been much worse (in terms of their off the field behavior) than Ponson.
They didn’t sign him to a multi-year contract. He’s here for one start.
Its not a big deal.
Saying that Ponson shouldn’t be a Yankee isn’t such a controversial statement. But the notion that his presence for a game will be a taint on the franchise seems overblown.
When the Ponson rumors first started, my reaction was: please, no. But I don’t have a better name to throw out for the start. I don’t feel any less proud to be a Yankee fan, to use your formulation.
And I don’t feel like I’m taking Ponson’s side in any debate, I feel like I’m taking Brian Cashman’s side.
If your argument is that you think some other pitcher would fill the need better than Ponson will, ok. The rest is pretty much fluff.
“I also feel like they generally avoid guys with bad reputations, and when they take a chance, there is some basis for it.”
That basis would be PRODUCTION. Yanks would sign an axe murderer if he could go .320, 40, 130. So would anyone else.
“So, you may not agree with me, hmmm, but you’ll forgive me if I don’t find your “nonsense†argument to be so compelling that I’ll change my opinion.”
that’s fine.
basically your entire point is that it’s OK for some guys to have substance abuse problems or character issues, but not OK for others.
I guess that the other side of the Ponson argument is “Who is in a better postion to make a judgement on Ponson’s future as a NY Yankee player – the Yankee Front Office or the Yankee Fans”. Steve Howe, Doc Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Mel Hall, Billy Martin, yes even Babe Ruth, all had character issues. Winning ballgames has an interesting way of making those character issues disappear.
Anyone remember Albert Belle? You couldn’t meet a worse character, but when he was hitting 30-40 HRs and 120 RBIs every season, nobody in Cleveland and Chicago complained about him, either!
pitch around doug lol…. u should do stand up
How have the Yankees avoided these moves? They had Wells on the team and he was a drunk. Gooden and Strawberry’s problems were well documented. Shane Spencer was no choirboy.
George forced Canseco onto the 2000 team.
All of those guys had issues. Some, much worse than Ponson.
There have also been guys on the team the past few years who have had their issues with the bottle. Its one reason why a couple of them are Ex-Yankees.
Even Brian Bruney had his issues and was smart enough to clean himself up before it ruined his career.
Honestly, if you look at Yankee history, getting Ponson is a typical Yankee decision and not something that beyond the scope.
there is no risk in getting him for one game. if he is there for 10 days i dont think ponson is gonna mold joba into an alcoholic, or get cano addicted to crack (although maybe this explains his ba.)there really is no downside. he is probably gonna be terrible, but so would igawa, who cares. its gonna be hilarious
Micky Mantle was known to have a drink or two.
SJ, these mystery debauchers you are referring to, what did their teammates think of them? Because Ponson’s teammates in Texas weren’t happy. Big difference.
I never once said anything about Gooden, so don’t attribute me not being outraged. It’s not accurate.
And did the Yanks know Gooden was on crack while he was on the team? Did they send him to the mound knowing he was minutes away from taking a crack hit?
Ponson has had so many chances.
SJ, I am not being as moralistic as you are claiming I am. I have no illusions about baseball players. I used to represent professional football players, so nobody ever has to remind me what some professional athletes can be like. If sports fans knew what the players were really like, the industry would suffer a blow. That is NOT what I’m saying.
I made and continued to make two very simple statements. First, that since 2004 this guy has been an awful baseball players. Second, he has show himself, over and over, to be a bad guy. Maybe I should have been more specific and said a bad teammate. On what should have been viewed as his last chance in Texas, less than a month ago, he got himself booted off of the team.
Is it so controversial that I don’t want an awful pitcher who’s an awful teammate on the team I root for?
I am flummoxed that the board is defending this guy. If being a good teammate doesn’t matter, let’s sign Bonds, Sosa and Lofton now. They’re all available. (And, by the way, unlike Ponson, they all put up good numbers last year.)
Fredo, you said:
“Yanks would sign an axe murderer if he could go .320, 40, 130. So would anyone else.”
Then why isn’t Bonds the DH right now?
I am absolutely amazed at what some people choose as their soapboxes.
Randy L with Livan Hernandez, Mitch with his anti-Ponson stuff.
As if this stuff matters in the least.
Ponson making a single start in a double header, when no one else is qualified to do so, doesn’t upset me in the least.
Axe murdering’s got nothing on purported drug use and breaking of the most famous record, as far as baseball goes
“Then why isn’t Bonds the DH right now?”
Don’t the Yankees have enough DH’s?
Mitch, you are aware that Ponson is coming for one start in an unscheduled doubleheader, right?
At this point I don’t think anyone has commited to having him start the first game of the World Series.
Er, purported performance enhancement drug use that is
The recreational stuff nobody cares about
“I made and continued to make two very simple statements. First, that since 2004 this guy has been an awful baseball players. Second, he has show himself, over and over, to be a bad guy. Maybe I should have been more specific and said a bad teammate”
fair enough. i am willing to agree to slightly disagree.
Really, Nick? Thanks for enlightening me. I actually thought that Ponson was coming in to pitch every game for the rest of the season, and they were going to DFA Pettitte, Mussina, Joba and Karstens.
hmmm:
“fair enough. i am willing to agree to slightly disagree.”
We are in agreement, then, to slightly disagree. Now if only we could apply this diplomacy to Zimbawe and other hot spots.
It’s only Monday. I don’t want to see you in tears about this before Friday even gets here!
Nick, I have tix for the Yanks-Mets on Friday afternoon. If Ponson pitches, I don’t want to go!
But there will be no tears, because, as Tom Hanks said, there’s no crying in baseball.
“If Ponson pitches, I don’t want to go!”
send tix to me!
Mitch,
If you don’t want to go, I’ll buy your tickets.
Finally, the truth comes out!
I would take those tickets off your hands but for the “in SF” part of my handle.
I don’t much care about what kind of guy Ponson is, since I don’t hang out in the Yankee clubhouse that much. But Ponson’s pitching numbers are just plain bad. His sole claim to a chance to start is a 3.88 ERA he put up in 55 innings this year. That flies in the face of ERA’s of 5.30, 6.21, 6.25 and 6.93 the last four years. Ponson’s 2008 WHIP of 1.563 (pretty bad, but pretty good compared to anything he has done since 2003) and his poor KO/IP ratio suggest to me that his 2008 ERA is pretty misleading, and that he is in all likelihood as bad as ever.
By giving Ponson a chance to start, the Yanks miss out on an opportunity to find out if someone else could actually help out this year. And, personally, while one game doesn’t necessarily make or break a season (although plenty of teams in plenty of seasons have discovered that one game can make the difference after all), I’d rather increase our odds of winning that game than not.
By the way, I’m no big Karsten’s fan but Ponson’s numbers offer little evidence for the claim that Ponson is better than Karstens at this point.
Or, yes, take them for free.
Mitch,
You think the majority of the guys on the Yankees liked Randy Johnson, Kenny Lofton, Chad Curtis, Gary Sheffield, Steve Howe, Gooden, Mel Hall and David Wells to name a few?
Scott Proctor was also a guy not universally liked in the locker room.
There were guys on the Dynasty Teams that hated David Wells so much, they would routinely go to Torre to ask why the guy is still on the team.
Did the Yankees know of Gooden’s problems? Of course they did. Geez, they not only knew about it, they kept giving him jobs no matter how many times he fell off the wagon.
He’s the reason why George was so fixated on getting Sheffield, he blew off Cash’s suggestion they sign Vlad.
The Yankees have had plenty of guys over the years who were not universally loved in the locker room. Ponson is no different than some of the guys mentioned in the thread.
When he was here the last time, most of the players and Torre were shocked at how good a guy he was, given his reputation.
Ponson’s problem is simple. Booze. He’s the opposite of Kim Basinger in the movie Blind Date. When she drank, she became fun.
When he drinks, he gets crazy.
Its funny, nobody in Texas complained about him when he was 4-1 with a 3.88 ERA to start the season.
You won’t find many players who get along with everybody on a team. In fact, I’d say its impossible.
There are various reasons why guys don’t get along in a locker room. Some are for off the field issues. Some on the field, some lifestyle, and some that are simply the byproduct of being together for 6-7 months out of the year.
Your basic premise is the Yankees should be beyond going to the Sidney Ponson’s of the world. All some of us are saying is, the Yankees have done this stuff for years and with players a helluva lot worse off (in terms of character) than Sidney Ponson.
For a one start audition, I fail to see the problem. Especially given the Yankees history with troubled players in the Steinbrenner Era.
Wow. Didn’t mean to turn this into StubHub.
Geise is supposed to pitch the day game, so I think it’s a moot point.
SJ, while I see your point — to a point — this part of your post got my attention:
“Your basic premise is the Yankees should be beyond going to the Sidney Ponson’s of the world. All some of us are saying is, the Yankees have done this stuff for years and with players a helluva lot worse off (in terms of character) than Sidney Ponson.”
My premise is, as I’ve said over and over, that Sidney Ponson is an awful baseball player. And, in addition to that, he has been an awful teammate. You think he’s a significant upgrade over Igawa/Karstens. I think they’re all the same, all guys who are not good enough to pitch in the majors.
Ponson is 4-1 with a 3.88 ERA, ill take that for one start
Mitch, you have every right to speak with your wallet and not go and cheer for someone you object to morally.
BUT…. if Ponson gets the win and the Yanks win the division or wild card by 1 game would you give up a chance to go see a playoff game because of Ponson’s contribution to getting the Yanks there?
You put the guy on the mound that gives you the best chance to win whether or not they are in the running for Mr. Congeniality.
DurhamYankee, as has been listed a bunch of times here, he had a 1.56 WHIP, a .307 BAA against, and 25 Ks in 55 innings. I promise you Karstens and Igawa can do that, too.
Pat, again, why is everyone focusing on the second part of my argument? I said, over and over, first and foremost, that this guy is an awful pitcher. The guy hasn’t had a WHIP under 1.55 since 2003!
I’m not convinced he gives the Yankes the best chance to win.
This is my last Ponson post. I just have to accept that fact that for whatever reason, the people on this board don’t think this is an awful decision by the Yanks.
“You think he’s a significant upgrade over Igawa/Karstens. I think they’re all the same, all guys who are not good enough to pitch in the majors.”
No, we think he at least MIGHT be an upgrade for a couple starts. Igawa…ROCKED in his one MLB start. Karstens has been getting beat up by AAA competition. Ponson may have been lucky, but he at least has had success in the majors this year. And it wasn’t because of stellar D behind him. He’s here until he sucks or someone they feel will be better comes along. If he tanks Friday, he’s probably gone shortly thereafter. If not, maybe he gets another start in place of Rasner or Giese. If Horne strings together a couple good starts, whoever’s worst out of Ponson, Giese and Rasner will be in the pen or moved off the team.
Well, Mitch, you convinced me.
Fred, Montero has been a better defensive catcher this year than Romine, by far. Romine has had a huge problem with blocking balls in the dirt. 2 errors and 10 passed balls in just 21 games. Montero has 3 errors and 7 passed balls in 38 games. Romine has allowed 37 steals while throwing out 9. Montero is 54 and 17. Pro-rated offense is no contest, although Romine shows slightly more patience, so far.
Ponson is worth a chance, it’s a low risk move. Regards character, we touched on this subject about a week ago when discussing Erik Bedard. I don’t care how surly he is to the media or how aloof he is in the clubhouse, the guy can pitch, and that is all I’m concerned about. Same goes for Ponson. It doesn’t seem fair to just automatically assume the worst.
“Fred, Montero has been a better defensive catcher this year than Romine, by far.”
Like being the leper with the most fingers.
So, because your assumption that Romine was doing a good/better job catching in opposition to Montero is equated to the number of fingers on a leper? You don’t like being proven wrong, do you? Maybe if you had actually seen these two play, you’d realize that you were wrong. Next time you disagree, try being right.