Pitching matchups for the Pirates series
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- June
- 24
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Tonight: RHP Darrell Rasner (4-4, 3.64) vs. LHP Tom Gorzelanny (5-6, 6.59), 7:05, Channel 9
Wednesday: RHP Joba Chamberlain (1-2, 2.36) vs. LHP Zach Duke (4-4, 3.91), 7:05, YES
Thursday: RHP Mike Mussina (10-5, 3.93) vs. LHP Paul Maholm (5-5. 4.41), 7:05, YES
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Greetings from Gate C4. Here at LaGuardia Airport with radio legend Sweeny Murti.
Looking forward to Pittsburgh. PNC Park is one of the best stadiums in the game and the place will be packed with the Yankees in town for the first time since the 1960 World Series. Lots of Yankees fans are expected.
Check back later for the lineups and other info.
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on Tuesday, June 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
from espn: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3457855
-The Texas Rangers and Cincinnati Reds have joined the Oakland Athletics in a bidding feud for the services of Dominican pitching prospect Michael Inoa, the crown jewel of the pool of Latin American players
-Inoa, 16, at 6 feet 7 and 210 pounds, is a right-hander with a repertoire consisting of a 93-mph fastball, a changeup and a curveball.â€
- at least seven teams were ready to give Inoa a bonus of more than $3 million, but many of them, including the New York Yankees, pulled out of the race as the price for the young ace went up.
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so the yankees have just had two cincinnati pitchers from latin america shut them down in the past week, and now the reds, a small market team, is among the favorites of getting the top latin american pitcher?
i said a few days ago that rookie cincinnati starters look different than rookie yankees starters and wondered if the yankees were doing enough in latin america to sign starters.
their pulling out of the bidding makes no sense on the surface because they have vastly more resources than cincinnati.
there must be more to this story. if not ,there’s something wrong with how the yankees are signing pitchers in latin america. how can oakland, cincinnati, and the rangers outbid the yankees?
FYI Sidney Ponson was sent down to Trenton yesterday. According to Chad Jennings. http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....fault.aspx
Vermont YF, that is to free up space in Scranton, he is coming up to pitch with the Yankees – Friday I believe.
“how can oakland, cincinnati, and the rangers outbid the yankees?”
maybe they dont think he’s as good as the other teams?
I’m looking forward to being in Pittsburgh on Thursday Pete! It’s my first time to PNC and it should be tons of fun. Maybe I’ll run into you somewhere? Know any good spots near the stadium to get some good food?
PNC is a great ballpark. Walk across the Roberto Clemente bridge and you have all of downtown to choose from. Get yourself a pierogi and a beer and you’ll be a happy camper.
only 3 games behind boston in the loss column!
And it’s not even the all star break. We don’t usually pass them so early in the season.
“And it’s not even the all star break. We don’t usually pass them so early in the season.”
i’m all for optimism, but lets not count our chickens before they’re hatched.
As much as I wanted Santana on our team, I kind of thank Cashman doing the right thing. Hail to King Felix!!!…
I see tonights game os on my9. Does anyone out there with DirectTV MLB Season ticket know how to tell which broadcast is for which team. When I record a game ahead of time there is no obvious way for me to see which broadcast is which.
Because of this, last week I wound up having to watch the Red’s broadcast for one of the games.
Not really a big deal but I just would like to know if I am missing something.
“how can oakland, cincinnati, and the rangers outbid the yankees?â€
maybe they dont think he’s as good as the other teams?
–Maybe his 93mph fastball was clocked with the YES gun.
I get the games on the MLB Extra innings package. More often than not we get the home team telecast… that means Fox Sports Pittsburgh for the next three days. Don’t know if the satellite distribution plays out the same way.
Pete break the news here first, ask Sweeny what the ‘real’ deal is with Mike and the Mad dog.
“there must be more to this story.”
Keep in mind that there is a LOT LOT of hype that goes on around these guys. They have hordes of hangers-on and agents. Also, information is leaked for a purpose. Maybe leaking the info that the Yanks are not in the running brings the Red Sox or Mets back to the table. Maybe they think hearing that will make Hank yell at Cash to throw any money necessary at Inoa. I don’t know.
But, I do know the ESPN Deportes has run with inaccurate information before, so…
At this point, if the bidding seemed like it was going too fast and furious for Inoa, wouldn’t it make sense to step back and let things play for a bit? According to Trade Rumors another source still had the Yankees in it. Until the kid is signed, all this talk about who is ahead, who is in the bidding means very little. Fun to speculate, but its like the Dicey K bidding. No one saw the RS going as high as they did.
Put down your coffee before reading this……
NY Post reporting that Pavano might be ready to pitch for the Yanks before Phil Hughes. The question is whether he would be welcome in the clubhouse.
Would you give him a shot in August/September instead of signing an “Arroyo-type†at the trade deadline or just cut losses and move on?
“Maybe his 93mph fastball was clocked with the YES gun.”
doesnt that mean that it was actually 88mph?
Probably best that you don’t use the phrase “would you give Pavano a shot” on a Yankee board. There are too many people that would take you literally and do it.
I’ll believe Pavano pitching for the Yankees when I see it. Not before. Who knows, maybe he will, but its more likely he will get a hangnail and be shutdown for the rest of the season.
agreed, GB. nor would i give much of a shot to Bronson Arroyo, either.
i will, however, be paying attention to the LA Dodgers tonight with Derek Low on the mound.
GB7
Point taken.
“Would you give him a shot in August/September instead of signing an “Arroyo-type†at the trade deadline or just cut losses and move on?”
Let’s leave Arroyo out of the conversation. He won’t be good back here in the AL. But, let’s insert “generic replacement-level starter”
Well, I don’t let the possibility of Pavano returning stop me from doing anything. If, looking at Rasner, Giese, Kennedy, Horne, Hughes, Marquez, Aceves, McCutchen, Karstens, Wright and Igawa I don’t feel like I can get by until Wang gets back…AND I feel like I can make a move that sets the team up to be better now and in the future…then I make a move. And, if Pavano comes back and can give me something I need, great.
Everyone needs to take 5 minutes to vote for the all star game. As much as it pained me to not vote for Jorge for catcher, I voted for Maurer. We need to make sure this team is not full of soxs!
Maurer is currently in the lead, and we must make sure he stays there! Also for first base vote for Morneau, we don’t need Youk there!
“We need to make sure this team is not full of soxs!”
Also, you know…Mauer actually DESERVES it. As opposed to Varitek who’s hitting .230.
Also, vote for Ian Kinsler at 2B.
Yeah, Pat. as soon as these Yankee fans read that, they’re going to get the same idea and there’s going to be a mad rush to sporting goods stores to buy guns and ammo. Just remember…it’ll be on your head.
“Carl Pavano, Yankee Pitcher, smelt something funny on the afternoon of June 23 in his Tampa apartment and decided he won’t pitch until he figures out where the smell is coming from. More likely than not, he won’t recognize that it is his own stench and will out for the season.”
FutureWorld: “Carl Pavano wins the Cy Young for the Mets in 2009 pitching 7 perfect games finishing with a 25-2 record”
“Also for first base vote for Morneau, we don’t need Youk there!”
and Ian Kinsler at 2B, too.
I don’t want Bronson, his attitude and his inflated salary on this team! He is signed through 2010 do we want that hippie on this team till than?
When Pavano makes 5 starts in a row, than i’ll be a believer until than no.
“Also, vote for Ian Kinsler at 2B.”
Already did that yesterday. The midget isn’t deserving.
my ballot looked like this
1b Morneau
2b Kinsler
3b Alex
ss Jeter
c maurer
of hamilton
of damon
of Melky
dh matsui
I don’t care about the nl so I just ignored that ballot.
And when I get home i’ll go on both computers and vote another 50 times, anything to preserve the final asg at ys.
This is the weakest AL shortstop choices in about 12 years.
“of damon
of Melky”
I think Ichiro and Vlad are more deserving lol
Hey Guys, thanks for the non-Yankee voting options. I’ll do my duty today and finish out my all-star voting.
i love the yanks as much as anyone but melky for the all-star team? I think it is time to give gardner some starts at CF, Melky has become an automatic out lately. I think a day or so off might help he get his head on right.
I know Melky isn’t but I had to vote for more Yankees! lol I believe at this point Damon is deserving. So I really think the only one you can have a beef about is Melky.
bobc – that seems to be the consensus but the Yanks are being notoriously slow. I personally think we will only see Gardner when Moeller goes.
“I think Ichiro and Vlad are more deserving lol”
If you look at Ichiro’s numbers, I think you’d have a hard time convincing me he’s more worthy than Damon.
Damon: .323/.390/.479, 65-ish% SB rate (13/19)
Ichiro: .287/.348/.369, 90+% SB rate (33/35)
So, Ichiro is waaaaay better at stealing bases, and his D is better, mostly his arm.
But Damon’s been a FAR more valuable hitter and his D in LF is actually good (that play the other notwithstanding)
“I personally think we will only see Gardner when Moeller goes.”
there would still be no room on the roster for him at the MLB level.
Unless someone in the OF gets hurt or traded, you arent seeing Gardner.
Like I said believe what you want we are very much in this.
Baseball America
JD Drew, actually, is having kind of a monster year.
I can’t wait to get to PNC tonight!! It really is a great park. I have been there once before (husbands a Pitts fan). It is really neat to walk over the Roberto Clemente bridge and get a wonderful view of the city of Pittsburgh. Super excited…
As for Pavano or Arroyo, one is free and playing for his baseball livelihood while the other would cost. Carl Pavano aka Rajah Of Rehab playing for a contract is a good thing. It’s like telling a fat kid do 5 sit ups get 2 boxes of dominos.
Actually, the Yankees aren’t all that slow. Abreu, A-Rod, Jeter, Damon all steal bases. To do it all the time as the Astros do only leads to more outs. No sense in becoming too predictable.
“i said a few days ago that rookie cincinnati starters look different than rookie yankees starters and wondered if the yankees were doing enough in latin america to sign starters.
their pulling out of the bidding makes no sense on the surface because they have vastly more resources than cincinnati.
there must be more to this story. if not ,there’s something wrong with how the yankees are signing pitchers in latin america. how can oakland, cincinnati, and the rangers outbid the yankees?”
What rookie starters are you referring to? Edison Volquez isn’t a rookie. Joba Chamberlain has pitched better than Cueto. The other rookie starter from Cincy made his major league debut. How good did Kennedy look in his major league debut last year?
Secondly, who knows if the Yankees have actually pulled out of trying to sign the kid, that story is based on rumors?
I can’t understand why you would care either. He wouldn’t be in the bigs for 3 or 4 or even 6 years, I can’t imagine you having the patience to wait for a 16 year old to develop.
(cough)….Like I said about Inoa and the Yankees believe what you want we are very much in this.
Baseball America
“I can’t understand why you would care either. He wouldn’t be in the bigs for 3 or 4 or even 6 years, I can’t imagine you having the patience to wait for a 16 year old to develop.”
if you buy into the rumors, he’s looking for a big league deal… that would lead me to believe you’d see him, ready or not, earlier than other prospects… you’re not going to be waiting 4, 5, or 6 years to see what this kid has to offer.
we’re looking 2 or 3 years out to see what Brackman, Betances, McAllister, and company can do… id see no difference in this aspect with Inoa.
How many once in a decade pitchers have we heard of so far this year? There comes a point in the bidding for a kid where it just doesn’t make sense to keep upping the bids. If he is that good, the Yankees will bid. You also have to step back if things are moving too fast with bids, allow the others to think about how high they are going.
Its all part of the gamble, but you also have to know when to fold them.
“Oakland set a franchise record for an international signing bonus in February, when the A’s gave 17-year-old outfielder Robin Rosario $350,000. The highest bonus given to an amateur player in Athletics history came in 1998, when Mark Mulder received $3.2 million as the second overall pick in the draft coming out of Michigan State.
”
Their franchise record for international signings is $350,000. The most they’ve ever given to an amateur was paid to Mark Mulder, a college pitcher.
Now they’re supposedly going to pay between 4.2 and 4.5 mil to sign an amateur 16 year old pitcher? I’ll see it and then I’ll believe it.
I’m sure the Yankees have taken a good lok at the ahem, “Kid”. But as experience tells us many Latin American ballplayers tend not to remember their exact ages. So Inoa could be 16 going on 25.
“I can’t understand why you would care either.”
Randy has a nagging suspicion that the Yankee organization is poorly run at the highest levels. Every symptom is interpreted through the filter of this perceived disease. Injuries? The Yanks must not pay enough attention to the strength and conditioning staff. The Sox luck out with some under-the-radar acquisition? The Yanks miss those guys because they don’t employ enough big-name consultants like Bill James. No young upper-level Latin-American starters in the system? They don’t understand the Latin-American talent market.
Turn Two, that’s not correct. According to reports, he was being offered ML deals with some clubs trying to get him to go with them, he turned it down. He is not looking for a ML deal, as that would rush him too much. Three years and he would have to be in. For a 16 year old that is way too fast.
Another point about him, he is 6′7″ tall now. At 16 that is huge. How much taller will he get? If he does grow more, how will that affect his pitching?
“if you buy into the rumors, he’s looking for a big league deal”
I thought the rumors said the opposite?
mlbtraderumors says “The kid is not interested in a big league deal.”
Trust me he’s that good.
Ray, you’re right about a lot of these people not having the patience to wait 4-6 years for this kid. They can’t even wait another month or so to get Cox, Robertson or Melancon or Horne and Aceves to get enough experience in AA and AAA now.
“Another point about him, he is 6′7″ tall now. At 16 that is huge. How much taller will he get? If he does grow more, how will that affect his pitching?”
it’s certainly a legit concern. Took Randy Johnson YEARS to be able to consistently throw strikes.
“if you buy into the rumors, he’s looking for a big league deal… that would lead me to believe you’d see him, ready or not, earlier than other prospects… you’re not going to be waiting 4, 5, or 6 years to see what this kid has to offer.”
I wonder if they’re saying he wants a big league deal to up the bidding. I’m sure he wouldn’t turn down 4+ mil even if he got a minor league deal. That’s a lot of money to turn down when you’re 16 from the DR.
I’m sure the Yankees have taken a good lok at the ahem, “Kidâ€. But as experience tells us many Latin American ballplayers tend not to remember their exact ages. So Inoa could be 16 going on 25.
There is no “ahem kid” w/ him, he’s 16, been checked on age since he was 14 yrs. old.
“it’s certainly a legit concern. Took Randy Johnson YEARS to be able to consistently throw strikes.”
IIRC, the #1 quality scouts rave about is his command, #2 coming his velocity (93 at 16 is amazing).
Now, add 3 inches to his height, and yeah, that could affect his mechanics, but I know I’m as tall now as I was at 15.
I have DirecTV and purchased the sports pack, not MLB Edtra Innings or whatever. I have YES etc. But every game is blacked out but I get regular YES programming. Meanwhile NESN plays the damn sox games. Anyone else have this issue? Someone had mentioned DirecTV earlier, that’s why I bring it up….
“I wonder if they’re saying he wants a big league deal to up the bidding.”
He doesn’t want a big league deal.
it’s certainly a legit concern. Took Randy Johnson YEARS to be able to consistently throw strikes.
Except unlike Randy he repeats his motion fluidly too.
International scouts tend to overhype players. By pulling out, the Yanks seem to be making a statement that they don’t think this guy has the potential that everyone says he has – and the Yanks are usually pretty good at detecting pitching talent.
“Now, add 3 inches to his height, and yeah, that could affect his mechanics, but I know I’m as tall now as I was at 15.”
That was my point…if he grows, could be an issue.
I’m several inches taller now than I was at 15, so you never know. The kid certainly could have finished all his growing, or he might not yet be done.
I figure it’s a risk you take, though.
I don’t see him getting a ML deal. That ties up a spot on the 40 man, and you only have 3 years to get him up and productive. If he is 16, which of course you really don’t know for sure, that isn’t a lot of time.
Hard to say how much he will go for.
Brandon, have you seen him pitch? You seem to know a lot about him.
With the Latin American stuff, its best to sit back and wait to see what happens.
Its the Wild West down there. By that, I mean you have a bunch of folks telling ESPNDeportes, or any other media outlet, what they want to hear.
All of it consists mostly of rumors and its impossible to get accurate info from anybody.
I would venture a guess to say the Yankees are very much in the Inoa sweepstakes. Cashman and the Yankee braintrust have made several trips to the DR during the season. You don’t do that just to pull out of the bidding a week before it hits.
As far as the bonus, having to give him a ML contract, etc, that sounds like agent talk to me. Sounds like the kid’s agent is the person planting the stories.
Its open bidding and everybody has the same shot. Just a matter of how high you go and whether or not you feel comfortable making the bid.
Remember, Wily Mo Pena is the record setter for a signing bonus. Just a little reminder to those of you who think any of these kids are can’t miss prospects, regardless of their hype.
“their pulling out of the bidding makes no sense on the surface because they have vastly more resources than cincinnati.”
Its that time of year again. There’s always more to the story than what’s on the surface with international signings. The whole thing is completely cloak and dagger and rumors just get leaked left and right.
And every year it seems to get worse as more attention is paid to amateur talent.
For the past year we’ve heard these wild speculations about Edward Salcedo being the next coming of babe ruth and how he’s gong to command some absurd signing bonus and its all come to nothing. He’s still unsigned and seems like a complete fabrication.
As we get closer to the July 2 signing bonus more and more rumors are going to get leaked (as they always do) about X,Y and Z being interested in some player in order to drive up the signing price.
ESPN Deportes has a very poor track record for breaking stories and often you get a sense that they are too close to their sources and don’t examine them critically at all.
Here the best part of their story on Inoa:
“Some teams have offered him a major league contract in order to make the offer even more attractive, but Inoa’s team is not interested in that. The battle may be fought until the last minutes,” the source added.”
This is great – a major league contract! Who is going to offer a 16 year old a major league deal? It seems implausible to believe that someone is going to put a 16 year old on their teams 40 man roster. If you did that its very possible that you’d have a player on your 40 man roster for 7-8 years before he came up to the big leagues. On top of that you’d be giving away the 3 automatic options that come with signing a minor league deal. Again, who is doing that with a 16 year old?
And if Inoa is this much in demand I can’t imagine he’d sign a major league deal longer than 8 year with 8 options. That would mean that by the time he’s around 24 you’d either have to keep him on your major league team or pass him through irrevocable waivers. Again, who is going pay a kid a $5M signing bonus and then take a chance of needing to pass him through irrevocable waiver at age 24 because he’s out of options?
And why would any small market team ever do that – if you had to place him on the 25 man roster sooner than necessary all you are doing is starting his service time clock for arbitration and free agency that much earlier.
But of course, this “source” says that Inoa is not interested in a major league contract even though he’s been offered one. How convenient. That’s just ridiculous. He’s a 16 year who’s so good teams are willing to offer him $4M plus to sign and a major league deal but he’s willing to turn down the major league deal through which he could earn even more money?
I’m not going to believe much related to international signings until names are on contracts.
And if the Yankees, Sox, Mets and Dodgers all pass on Inoa that will tell you a great deal.
Brandon, have you seen him pitch? You seem to know a lot about him.
My family knows some of his “circle” and have actually watched him pitch, command and delivery will not be an issue and he hit 95 on the gun.
GB,
A lot of fans have really bought into the win at all cost mentality and they don’t understand that sometimes it takes years for talent to develop in the bigs.
yeah, i might have read the report wrong. if he doesnt want a MLB deal, then it makes a little more sense because you can develop him at the proper pace as the organization sees fit.
personally, a kid who is that big at 16 cant grow much more. i would imagine the growing he’ll see from this point it outward, not upward… but outward in a good sense, not the Sidney Ponson/Bartolo Colon sense.
this is the type of signing that the yankees should flex their muscles on. better to take a chance at $4 million on raw talent you develop than $137 million on a veteran SP who has 8 years of wear and tear on his arm already, no? isnt that what people here have been really against?
dan
I had the same problem with direct TV they said i was in the philly area and was black out for a ton of games. Had to go back to giving dolan money with cablevision.
YanksRule57
7:00PM on Fox Sports Pittsburgh all three days.
You can go to inDemand’s website and sign up for a weekly schedule to be sent to you each Sunday.
I think the major league deal would end up reducing his value, not enhancing it.
Hey, its fun to speculate on this, but anything we hear will be far from acurate unless it comes from the clubs themselves.
As CB says, its best to ignore EVERY report on him from now until signing day.
The Salcedo case is an excellent example. Its how the internet works. You plant a story, fans froth over a player they have never seen, and conclude if your team doesn’t sign him, something is wrong.
Boras wanted so much money for Salcedo, every team in baseball simply said “no” and walked away. Now, the kid will be lucky if he gets $200k to sign. If you believed the reports last year, he was going to get $4 million.
I completely agree with CB’s analysis re: Inoa. If he is as good as the hype, there is no way the Oakland A’s sign him.
If they “outbid” larger market teams for his services, you can rest assured his hype doesn’t match his projection.
There are too many talented front office people in the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees and Angels baseball divisions to let the A’s swoop in and sign the kid if he is that good.
Nothing against Inoa. I hope he signs for as much money as he can get. Its the American Way! lol
I just don’t get caught up in the rumors because its obvious to me they are planted rumors by folks close to the players. They rarely are based in reality.
Just noticed the pitching the Yankees are facing is all Left Handed! How is it that the Yankees seem to face so much Lefty pitching?
That’s about it, Ray. The ones everybody wants brought up now, are recovering from surgery. It’s less stressful pitching in the minors than pitching in NY. Less stress means less strain. If these guys were ready now, they’d be in Yankee pinstripes today. I would guess sometime after the All Star break, you’ll start seeing them showing up after the trades start eliminating other options. Right now, regardless of how people view it, the pitchers are doing one Hell of a job and piecing together the wins and doing it it all of them contributing one way or another. will it last? Who knows, but, if they start running into trouble, then you’ll see the moves. I realize that this is the easy part of the schedule, but, some of these pitchers will be traded and if their numbers look good, it can only help in getting some value.
How is it that the Yankees seem to face so much Lefty pitching?
Because the majority of the lineup has trouble vs LHP
Because the RH hitting on this team is pretty much crap. Obviously ARod and Jeter are superb and Jorge is a solid RH hitter, but both Betemit and Cabrera are much better from the left side, making Jose Molina the fourth best RH hitter on the team.
Wouldn’t you go out of your way to throw lefties?
Brandon, I know that, which is why I ask the question, how? How are there this many left hand pitchers out there, let alone 3 in one club?
It just seems that the Yankees end up facing a disproportionate number of Lefties.
The only way I see a team like Oakland actually signing a player like that it to keep him for a year and trading him off for a talent windfall to restock their farm with more top of the line talent, and a lot of it.
Spitzer the Pirates havve sucked for years those LHPs are high draft picks, what do you mean how can they throw 3 LHP ?
There isn’t that much left hand talent out there. Even with high draft picks, there isn’t a lot of talented lefty pitching compared to righty.
I wonder what the breakdown on pitching they faced is. It just seems they face a lefty far more often than I can recall.
Kids like Inoa have no trade value a year into their careers.
Its akin to looking at kids in the Gulf Coast, NY-Penn, or Dominican Summer Leagues and thinking you can move them for a lot of parts. No team trades valuable parts for kids that young. If they are moved at all, its as throw ins in larger level trades.
If they were to sign him, they will have him for at least 4 years because its the only way they could see if they could get a return on their investment.
“Boras wanted so much money for Salcedo, every team in baseball simply said “no†and walked away. Now, the kid will be lucky if he gets $200k to sign.”
As more and more young players are offered life altering money to buy them out of their arbitration years and a few of their free agency years the free agent market withers.
The free agent market is where Boras made himself. Same goes for most agents.
As that revenue source decreases agents have to look to other places – one of them is the international signees. How many had US agents 10 years ago?
And with that there’s just going to be progressively more and more innuendo and hype.
Every year in the draft there are extremely talented young pitchers who don’t get signed and go to college over a difference in a few hundred thousand dollars. In last year’s (2007) draft one of the best high school pitchers was Matt Harvey. First round talent who fell do to signability and a commitment to UNC. The angels drafted him in a later round. I believe Harvey wanted $1M to sign and the angels oferred $750,000 K (something like that). Harvey declined and went to college.
That’s the kind of difference in money that can get you a very good high school pitcher – $250K isn’t much compared to $4M for 16 year old from another country.
Again, signing amateur talent is all about using your resources in the most efficient way possible.
A lot of people feel like the money now being thrown at international players is just silly as there is so much projection involved.
Let’s look at this outside the yankees. As SJ said – teams like the Dodger and Angels have done very, very well in international scouting. If all of these big market teams with extensive international scouting networks pass on a guy and let a small market team bid for him then he’s probably not that good.
The impact of international players on the game has been enormous. Nearly all of those players came into the game as near unknowns.
Go back year by year and look at which international signees get the most money – there’s not alot of correlation between getting signed for big money at 16 and being a good major leaguer. As the dollars and hype increase that correlation is going to decrease even further.
Spitzer,
With the Yankees hitting lefties as poorly as they have, teams are going to do whatever they can throw lefties against them. Bring someone up from the minors, shuffle the rotation, it’s all fair game.
Check out this ballgirl ……
http://youtube.com/watch?v=syD.....ture=email
The lefty pitching trend started when A-Rod and Posada were out of the line-up. Managers threw every lefty they could at them. Not to worry though, we’ve hit lefties pretty good especially since the return of alex and Jorge.
“As the dollars and hype increase that correlation is going to decrease even further.”
Lets hope Montero can buck that trend!
Excellent ballot Jennifer. Props for eliminating “Hothead” Youkilis and the little runt at 2nd base.
No doubt Francona will load up on Boston reserves and the ever popular Beckett and the immature Papelbon when he selects the pitching staff.
It’s a real shame that Mariano will have to sharing bullpen space with the childish Papelbon.
Glenn, as incredible as that video is, it’s a viral marketing ad. A total fabrication, unfortunately!
TurnTwo said that if Moeller was DFA’d there would still be no room on the MLB roster for Gardner. That’s important info I wasn’t aware of. TurnTwo or somebody, can you explain?
SJ, I have to disagree. If there are teams that really want this kid a year from now, I can see Beane trading him for three young recent (1-2 years before)1st/2nd round kids for the players /positions they need with the other team picking up the remainder of the signing bonuses. It would definately need to be a team that wants him badly and for some reason couldn’t sign him.
I’m possibly wrong, but, I just don’t see Oakland putting that much money out for a kid, when they won’t pay their stars that kind of money.
“TurnTwo said that if Moeller was DFA’d there would still be no room on the MLB roster for Gardner. That’s important info I wasn’t aware of. TurnTwo or somebody, can you explain?”
He didn’t mean there wouldn’t be _room_, just that there wouldn’t be a logical spot for him. A 5th OFer that won’t see any time in the OF isn’t useful to this team. If he was righty, he could spot in for Abreu or Melky sometimes. But Gardner’s not that guy. They need to make a move for a useful righty bat that can play solid D at first or in RF
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06.....116889.htm
Wow. You have your new ace acquisition and your interim manager calling the fans crap. Can you imagine if any Yankee did this? At least Farnsworth had the sense to say, “I’m not going to comment on that.”
“If there are teams that really want this kid a year from now, I can see Beane trading him for three young recent (1-2 years before)1st/2nd round kids for the players /positions they need with the other team picking up the remainder of the signing bonuses. It would definately need to be a team that wants him badly and for some reason couldn’t sign him.”
There isn’t a team that would make this deal.
If NYY brings in an outfielder, the better option would be Justin Christian, who’s a right handed hitter with equal fielding skills and speed, a little smarter runner, plays all three outfield spots well and could play second base if necessary. He has a bit more power than Gardner, too.
It would take awhile for Inoa to gain any value. Look at Montero, its been 2 years since the Yankees signed him and only now is he worth something on the trade market. I doubt any team would have traded much for him prior to this season.
Even then, no prospect is worth 3 recent first round picks plus money.
TurnTwo and whozat-
I’m confused. By saying that there was no room for Gardner even if Moeller was DFA’d, what was meant that TurnTwo would rather bring up another reliever than a fifth outfielder (note-with the way Matsui was limping Sunday, I suspect that’s more a fourth outfielder than a fifth outfielder)? Unless you are worried about the need to activate another pitcher Sunday?
Whozat, there have been stranger trades than that and in all sports. A major reason for a deal like that would be if the kid didn’t want to sign with the certain team that wanted him and it would need to be a pre-aranged deal. Complicated, yes, but, I believe Beane would be the type to try it.
***arranged***
Still, no prospect is worth 3 first round picks plus money. Let alone a 17 year old pitcher with no professional experience (assuming the trade is made in 1 year like you said).
My god could you imagine if Joe said half the things that Jerry has said? First the gangter garbage, and next impliying that your fans are s*it
Pat, I made the assumption on it being after his first year of actual play. It’s doubtful that he plays this year anyway. Whatever team signs him needs to make sure he gets his education. That was the one great thing about Ewing Kauffman’s baseball acadamy. The kids actually went to school and finished there education, along with playing baseball. That’s a system that needs to be instituted throughout baseball.
Waive Your Hat
i simply meant that Cashman has said he’s not calling up Brett Gardner to be a 5th OF. He’s view as a legit prospect by the organization, and as such, they are more intent upon getting him ABs in Scranton regularly than calling him up to not get more than a couple ABs a week and pinch run.
there isnt room on the roster for him. he’s got no place to play right now if he’s called up.
Since it’s too early to start drinking I’m just gonna bang my head against the wall every time somebody mentions Gardner.
In other news, how unlucky am I? I’m going up to NJ from VA this weekend and bought tickets to the Friday afternoon game against the Mets at the Stadium. Great, but then I find out that Ponson is probably gonna pitch.
just doing my yankees fan duty here to report that tickets have been released on the Mets website for those interested in going to the Mets/Yankees game on Saturday… i just bought 4 tickets myself, at face value for the upper deck.
i think the pitching matchup is suppsed to be Johan and Pettitte, but not 100% sure.
anyway, tickets available, prob for a very limited time, if anyone is interested.
“Since it’s too early to start drinking”
its always 12 o’clock somewhere.
TurnTwo-
Isn’t the saying “It’s always 5:00 somewhere”?
I guess I can’t handle my alcohol like you!
GB7-
Justin Christian looks interesting but I haven’t heard that much about him. I don’t think he’d help as much as Gardner right now because Christian hasn’t been hitting left-handed pitching at AAA very well.
ha!! i always heard 12 o’clock, but maybe thats just what i wanted to hear…
TurnTwo-
Thanks for clarifying. I guess we won’t be seeing a fifth outfielder anytime soon if Cashman’s statement can be relied upon. With Matusui iffy, though, I wish Cashman would reconsider.
Eric – Me too. I am coming down for Boston for the evening game (at Shea) of the doubleheader. No offense, but here’s hoping you get Ponson. I would take virtually anyone else at this point.
Jason,
You’d get Giese.
I cant believe I am doing this as every person I have asked so far either already has tickets or has plans BUT I have an extra ticket for Friday’s game at the Stadium. Field Championship Level (box 4) row H. it is a single ticket so if interested let me know.
Wave Your Hat, Christian’s been hitting somebody, because since last July, he’s been hitting .320 in AAA. He’d have to be hitting them fairly well.
A few non-Gardner related minor league things:
Juan Miranda has been CRUSHING the ball since he came off the DL and Karstens was given pitcher of the week.
Can’t Karstens start instead of Ponson? I feel like it’s more likely he has a better outing.
who’s pitching on sunday? i have tickets.
GB7-
I said Christian looked interesting and I didn’t know much about him, so I wasn’t really arguing with you. But I did see that this year (I don’t have last year’s splits) he only had a .314 OBP against lefties, although he did have a .478 slugging percentage against lefties, which isn’t bad. I’m a little worried that the OBP against lefties would be pretty poor at the major league level, and if he were called up all he’d be likely to face would be lefties. Gardner’s numbers this year are better (except BA). But I guess it’s all academic anyway as the Yanks don’t seem to intend to call up any OF at all.
EricVA-
Most people on this blog want Ponson over Karstens, so I suspect you are spitting into the wind on that one.
Justin Christian 1.000 FPCT %, 2.81 RFg he’d be a very interesting option.
EricVa, you’re right. Miranda is unconscious right now. kind of came out of nowhere, too. it’ll be interesting to see if he can keep it up, or if he comes back down to earth a bit. i dont think he’s really a 1B option this year, because he’s awful defensively, but that bat could be valuable in a deadline deal you’d think.
id be in favor of Karstens over Ponson myself. you wonder if his start in Scranton the other night has made Cashman and company think twice.
The Yankees also seem to think that Christian is more fully developed and therefore might give him the chance to play sporadically. Whereas with Garnder they would want him to play virtually full time. Christian has been on fire recently and apparently has Gardner-like speed with an even more refined approach on the basepaths.
I saw somewhere that Christian used to be an infielder. Any chance the Yanks try to move him around a bit so he can be that super-sub with game changing speed?
TT I don’t know if Miranda came out of nowhere. He was very highly thought of coming out of Cuba and then didn’t play baseball for two years. He was getting his timing back towards the end of last year. He would be much more on the radar if he wasn’t hurt for significant chunk of this season.
“Any chance the Yanks try to move him around a bit so he can be that super-sub”
i believe they moved him to the OF bc he was a complete butcher defensively in the IF.
i dont mean out of nowhere in the sense that he was a nobody and is having a ridiculous season… just that he seemed to settle in as a player who was more of a platoon guy who couldnt hit lefties to simply just a guy who can hit.
i wonder if the adjustments he’s made coming back from the injury will lead to long term success against lefties, or if he’ll regress back to his split norms against LHP/RHP.
Well, this has all been hashed out previously and I thought Ponson won out on the board, but TurnTwo and EricVA, there is a very good anti-Ponson argument. Other than his ERE of 3.88 in 55 IP this year, Ponson’s pitching numbers are just plain bad. That flies in the face of ERA’s of 5.30, 6.21, 6.25 and 6.93 the last four years. Ponson’s 2008 WHIP of 1.563 (pretty bad, but pretty good compared to anything he has done since 2003) and his poor KO/IP ratio suggest to me that his 2008 ERA is pretty misleading, and that he is in all likelihood as bad as ever.
It’s only one game (I hope)ing, but by giving Ponson a chance to start, the Yanks are miss out on an opportunity to find out if someone else could actually help out this year. And, personally, while one game doesn’t necessarily make or break a season (although plenty of teams in plenty of seasons have discovered that one game can make the difference after all), I’d rather increase our odds of winning that game than not.
By the way, I’m no big Karsten’s fan but Ponson’s numbers offer little evidence for the claim that Ponson is better than Karstens at this point. Plus, Ponson’s last outing was mediocre, while Karsten’s last outing was great.
Plus, Karsten’s did try to pitch on a broken leg, so don’t the Yanks owe him one?
Christian is a speed and line drive hitter, but, he does have some gap power. He doesn’t walk as much as Gardner, but, he strikes out about half as much. He’s 28 years old and out of options, but, he would fill the needs of an extra outfielder if they need one. He wouldn’t be a prospect, but, if he showed enough, he could be included in a trade instead of just letting him go as a FA. It also buys time to let Gardner get his strikeouts under control.
Gayle, I guess you’re not giving the ticket away…? Sigh. I know. Just thought I’d check.
“TT I don’t know if Miranda came out of nowhere. He was very highly thought of coming out of Cuba”
So was Kendry Morales. Call me skeptical, but I’d like to see ONE Cuban player succeed as an MLB hitter before I buy in.
Seeing the way Matsui was running and limping the other day, along with his knee being drained, makes me wonder if he will remain healthy enough to stay in the lineup.
“Seeing the way Matsui was running and limping the other day, along with his knee being drained, makes me wonder if he will remain healthy enough to stay in the lineup.”
If Matsui is out, Damon and his noodle arm can DH and Gardner can play left. Problem solved
Ok I got a question because I’m hearing this on radio alot, Who would you take in thier prime Miguel Tejada or Derek Jeter ?
I’ve been following Chad Jennings comments and info on Brett Gardner….it seems like he is ready to come up and is really fast and could give us a real base stealing threat….does anyone have a good scouting report on him…he is batting .295 with 29 SB’s….can he be like Ellsbury for us….what is his ceiling….it just seems with our position player prospects (Cano and Melky) the last few years that scouts and executives don’t see them as being real good and then they come up and our better than expected…what else does Gardner have to do…I think its time to maybe platoon him with Melky and see what we have….also it just seems that all baseball executives ask for more if they are making a trade with the Yankees b/c if the trade works out to be bad for their team the attention they will get over it may get them fired…I mean we can’t even make a trade for a lefty reliever…..things have changed…..
Christian came up as a second baseman, but was pretty shakey. He is a fine outfielder, though. I’d like to see NYY pick up Freddy Bynum, who was just DFA’d by Baltimore. He plays all of the infield and outfield spots, hits a little better than Gonzales and has blinding speed.
“Ok I got a question because I’m hearing this on radio alot, Who would you take in thier prime Miguel Tejada or Derek Jeter ?”
Are steroids banned in their prime, or not banned?
“So was Kendry Morales. Call me skeptical, but I’d like to see ONE Cuban player succeed as an MLB hitter before I buy in.”
Only way to find out is give him a shot. Not really a fit in our organization, what with all the DHes we have, but someone’d probably be interested.
forget the steroids, we’re talking talent and in prime level steroids or none.
Skippy not giving it away but am willing not to take full value at this point would rather get something than nothing and if come friday still not takers it will be first come first serve lol
Freddie Bynum has been beyond horrible this year – an OPS of .480 in 99 at bats. Makes Melky’s at bats against lefties look positively Pujols-like.
Jeter, hands down, over Tejada. IMO, Jetes is a better leader, smarter ballplayer, better situational hitter and base runner and a far, far better clubhouse citizen.
Jeter – not as much pop but more clutch, and that flip move saved quite a few runs.
Brandon:
I’d still take Jeter’s better overall game. Little bit of Apples and Oranges offensively as we’re comparing a tablesetter with a 3/4 hitter, but Jeter brought a more complete game to the table in my opinion. Hate using the dreaded “intangibles” argument here, because I don’t believe, as many do, that Jeter has a monopoly on them, but when comparing these two, it may well be intangibles that separate them in their prime years (contrast Jeter’s flip in Oakland against Tejada stopping between 3rd and home at Fenway in the ‘03 ALDS)
stupid question, tejada’s only prime involved steroids
1b Morneau
2b Kinsler
3b Alex
ss Jeter
c maurer
of hamilton
of damon
of Melky
dh matsui
Melky????
in 6 weeks, lets ditch melky and miranda and get some badass pitching…
Fredo good point. I mean offensively it’s nearly equaled infact Jetes has a tad more hits because of the #2 spot he hit in, Tejada did it w/o Giambi and other than his Orioles years was a top 5 player in the AL, this year he’s making a comeback. Although I’d put it this way it’s weird but true, I’d take Jeter’s bat slightly over Tejada but give me Tejada’s defense at SS.
stick in bradley for melky and that is prefect, no sox
Okay guys, as a Sox fan I can admit that Varitek is not having an all star year, but can you guys honestly make a case for Melky being the starting center fielder? There are many outfielders in the American League having better years than Melky.
Agreed Ray. Melky barely makes a good argument for starting on the Yankees, nevermind being in the allstar game, but it is the fans’ game and Rebecca is a fan. She wants to vote that way, more power to her.
My bad. Just attributed Jennifer’s allstar votes to Rebcecca. Either way, same rules apply.
Easily Jeter. His peak lasted much longer than Tejada’s and he has better numbers overall.
Tejada: http://www.baseball-reference......mi01.shtml
Jeter: http://www.baseball-reference......de01.shtml
Look at the OPS+ Jeter has him beat hands down. Jetes has a career 121 OPS+, Tejada is 114. Jeter had 10 seasons of 110 OPS+ or higher, Tejada only had 6.
Jeter steals more bases, is a better fielder, has more hustle, much higher OBP, higher average. The only area Tejada has him beat is in power numbers and even then its not by much.
this thread is an abortion
I understand completely Fredo. I’ve always enjoyed Rebecca’s postings on here and she absolutely can vote for whoever she wants.
But it is one thing to vote for a bunch of players who are on your team (something that has been done by both Yankee and Sox fans) because you want to see your team well represented, and quite another to vote for a set of players because you honestly think they are the best at that position.
My last post I said Jeter is a better fielder than Tejada but I just looked at the stats and thats not true. I still say Jeter is a better player in his prime than Tejada.
IMO while we’re being truthful, Jetes is not the best SS in the AL and some can say Johnny Damon should be in LF and Jason Giambi should be at 1B.
Awww, Pete Abe is everywhere…
http://johnsterling.blogspot.com/
Jason Giambi should be at 1B?????????????? Compare his fielding and other stats with those of Morneau and Youkilis and I don’t think there is even a comparison.
“Does anyone out there with DirectTV MLB Season ticket know how to tell which broadcast is for which team.”
Until the broadcasts actually begins, I’m not sure. But it seems as if the Yankee broadcast has usually been the second (higher) of the two channels most of the time. So if the game is going to be on, for example, channels 724 and 725, I would try 725.
Jeter’s not having a very good year (by his standards), but all around I don’t think there’s any SS in the AL having a better year, so why not Jeter?
The scary thing is, the case can be made for Jeter in the AS game this year. He’s having a bad year but so are the rest of the AL shortstops. Jeter is 3rd among qualified SS’s in OPS and 2nd in RZR. The only other guy I’d consider is Michael Young who is 1st and 3rd respectively.
Giambi’s offensive numbers are better than Morneau’s or Youkilis. His defense hasn’t been so horrible. Offense outweighs defense. I’d vote for Giambi.
Who cares who plays in the all-star game? It’s a popularity contest anyway. It’s not about the best players but about the biggest STARS. In my opinion, anyway.
Re: Jeter vs. Tejada
Jeter’s career OPS+121, Tejada’s career OPS+ 114.
Ray it’s not just defense I’m talking about offensive production too.
ray,
Giambi is easily the best offensive 1B this year (in the AL). He’s a bad fielder but the case can be made that he deserves to be in the all-star game.
Michael Young makes Jeter’s defense look pretty good. I’d go with Jeter – Young’s offensive numbers aren’t that much better.
“Compare his fielding and other stats with those of Morneau and Youkilis and I don’t think there is even a comparison.”
What other stats? Giambi is having a better offensive year than both of those guys. A much better offensive year than both of them.
My AL AS ballot looks like: Mauer, Giambi, Kinsler, Jeter, Rodriguez, Damon, Hamilton, Bradley, Matsui. I couldn’t bring myself to vote for Drew but he does deserve it.
Yup also remember Jetes was a # 1 or 2 hitter through those years and Tejada was a # 3 or 4, he’s slighty better than Tejada w/ the bat but defensively I’d take Tejada.
Gayle,
I might be interested. How much do you want for it?
Michael
News:8:23 AM
Ponson was moved from Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre’s roster to Double-A Trenton to make room for J.B. Cox who is coming off the minor league disabled list. Ponson will pitch one of the two games against the Mets on Friday, the New York Post reports.
It looks like Ponson in the Day Game at the Stadium and Giese on the “road” against the Mets on Friday. It would be nice to have the bats come alive and give these 2 some real good run support and we sweep this silly twin park DH !
“There is no “ahem kid†w/ him, he’s 16, been checked on age since he was 14 yrs. old.”
When in doubt, ask his children!
All I know is that there are a considerable number of Yankee fans on this blog who don’t even think that Giambi should be the starting first baseman for the Yankees.
“Michael Young makes Jeter’s defense look pretty good. I’d go with Jeter – Young’s offensive numbers aren’t that much better.”
If you go purely by RZR Jeter is the second best SS in the league and Young is 3rd best. (this is only among SS who have logged enough innings to be qualified)
“Yup also remember Jetes was a # 1 or 2 hitter through those years and Tejada was a # 3 or 4, he’s slighty better than Tejada w/ the bat but defensively I’d take Tejada.”
Just goes to show you that the Yankees probably should have had Jeter batting third in the lineup. He would have easily had 100 RBI per year for a while.
I’ve never known Tejada to be very good defensively either.
michael what do you want to offer lol email me if you want gayle@qprime.com
ray, that was back in April. I don’t think any Yankee fans want him benched now.
“Giambi is easily the best offensive 1B this year (in the AL).”
Easily??? Morneau is hitting .300+ with 60 Rbi. Youklis is hitting .300+ with more RBI than Giambi. Both guys have scored more runs and neither play their position as though they are auditioning for the role of a statue in a Broadway production.
“All I know is that there are a considerable number of Yankee fans on this blog who don’t even think that Giambi should be the starting first baseman for the Yankees.”
That was in April/early May. Now a lot of them are wondering what it would take to bring Giambi back on a 1 year deal.
Youkilis: .304/.376/.540
13 HR 47 RBI .916 OPS
Giambi: .271/.403/.575
17 HR 42 RBI .978 OPS
You can make the debate on this one.
i really need to get some tickets this year. my regular source kind of vanished this season
Gayle,
I’m interested in buying your ticket. Is there someway I can contact you directly?
Thanks!
Clare
“Easily??? Morneau is hitting .300+ with 60 Rbi. Youklis is hitting .300+ with more RBI than Giambi.”
Giambi has a higher OBP and higher SLG pct. than both of them.
Just goes to show you that the Yankees probably should have had Jeter batting third in the lineup. He would have easily had 100 RBI per year for a while.
Ummm not sure about that one, sparatically yes, but lets be honest here, Bernie Williams and Paul Oneil protected him in this line up. Out of his career 2,434 hits 1,782 were singles (73 %)
Considering Giambi’s start to the year, his numbers look very impressive.
What’s wrong with singles? They drive in runs when a runner is in scoring position.
Fredo,
Batting average and RBI’s mean very little unless you are going to quote me BA with runnings in scoring position.
Giambi: .978 OPS
Youkilis: .916 OPS
Morneau: .847 OPS
Thats a pretty large margin over both guys in my opinion. The only point you can make for either Morneau or Youk is that both guys crush Giambi when it comes to BA with RISP.
Also why are you even talking about defense? I was discussing offense.
giambi has been great. However lets be reasonable, the yanks will use the 5m dollar buy out after this season instead of giving him 22 mill next year. So who is gonna fill in?
Teixeira? fielder?
A serious question (no sarcasm here)…I’m interested in the Pavano story, is he really faking injuries? I hear how much the Yankees fans hate him, and how he might not even be welcome by his own teamates. Is he really fabricating arm injuries to the point he undergoes surgery?
Is there a chance that he actually has been unlucky and keeps getting hurt, or is the guy really just not interested in being a baseball player anymore?
Again, I have to chuckle to myself since I have seen they humor associated with most Pavano posts, but I AM being serious here.
“Giambi has a higher OBP and higher SLG pct. than both of them.”
Yet he’s producing less and is more apt to give runs away on the defensive front. Look, I appreciate he’s had a nice last 60 days or so, but picking and choosing stats to make his case isn’t selling me on it. Fact is, he’s got a lot fewer PA’s than both players because he can’t be counted on to get the job done at that position on a consistent basis.
Youkilis has scored more runs, had more hits, more doubles, more triples, more rbi’s, and has a higher average by more than 30 points than Giambi so I think it is difficult to argue that Giambi is easily the best offensive first baseman this year.
After reading this posts I will grant you that Giambi is having a better year than I was giving him credit for and he does have more home runs than either Youk or Morneau, and that he has a better OBP and SLG.
Considering Giambi’s start to the year, his numbers look very impressive.
Exactly Giambi started out .164/.315/.411 w/ 5 HR 13 RBI
May- June Giambi .333/.453/.667 w/ 12 HR 29 RBI
He right now is at .271/.403/.575 w/ 17 HR 42 RBI
That means May to June nearly 50% of his total offense exploded, could you imagine if he had started the season hot.
What’s wrong with singles? They drive in runs when a runner is in scoring position.
Yes they do and as we know XBH gets runs in more times than not, to say Jetes would have 100 RBI reguarly would mean the guy infront of him would have to be a high OBP %/ XBH hitter.
Giambi is at 162 OPS+, Youkilis is at 139. Not really that close in my opinion.
There are no more important offensive stats than OBP and SLG, and Giambi dominates those. Giambi’s defense hasn’t actually been that bad this year. I really don’t think there is a valid argument for anyone other than Giambi.
you can’t discount Youkilis in this debate I mean he is the leadoff hitter No ?
Brandon,
Youkilis did bat leadoff some last year, but I think Jacoby Ellsbury has been the leadoff hitter for most of the games this year.
i just want to add my 2 cents and say I hate Kevin Youkilis.
the end
.
“Ummm not sure about that one, sparatically yes, but lets be honest here, Bernie Williams and Paul Oneil protected him in this line up. Out of his career 2,434 hits 1,782 were singles (73 %)”
Compare Paul O’neill’s numbers with Derek Jeter’s numbers and then tell me that Jeter couldn’t have batted third.
No such thing as a player’s presence in the lineup protecting another player. If you can hit you can hit regardless of who’s hitting around you.
Absolutely understandable, Gayle. Good luck!
Ray, Youkilis is just plain ugly. Who WANTS to see him at any time?
Brandon, isn’t that what you usually have with leadoff hitters? Guys who tend to get on base more?
yea and giambi is a real looker
Giambi is having the best offensive year of any 1b in the AL.
But he’s not the most valuable first basemen in the AL.
That’s probably Youklis. As an overall player he’s the best firstbaseman in the AL.
Giambi so far this year has been around 6-7 runs better than a league average first baseman on offense.
Youkilis has been around 5-6 runs better than a league average firstbaseman.
For the year right now Giambi is on a pace to be 13-15 runs better than a league average offensive first baseman. Youkilis around 11-12 runs better.
The big difference between them is defense – and it really is substantial.
Giambi is on a pace to be around 10-13 runs worse than a league average defensive first baseman (that’s factoring in his overall fielding which includes throwing).
Youkilis is on a pace to be around 15 runs better than a league average first baseman.
So in terms of overall net value, Giambi right now is around 3-5 runs better than a league average first baseman.
Youkilis is on pace to be 25 runs better than a league average first baseman when you count his offense and defense.
Players such as Youkilis who are better than league average by large margins offensively and defensively generate large overall value.
Mourneau is sort of in the middle both defensively and offensively. He might be 5 runs or so better offensively and 0 to -1 defense. He’s comparable to Giambi’s overall value.
I’m basing this on an analysis done over at the replacement level blog earlier this but I’ve rechecked the numbers – none of the players is doing substanstially different in terms of performance. For Giambi’s defense I added a few runs off his defense to guesstimate the impact of his horrendous throwing which isn’t accounted for by zone rating.
http://www.replacementlevel.co.....ve_average
although i HATE youks
saucY
I have a confession…..I don’t particularly care for Youkilis but he is a good player.
When you say you “hate” him isn’t that an acknowledgement that he is an impact player? When the Sox come to Yankee stadium the fans aren’t likely to boo Kevin Cash, the second string catcher….they are going to jeer Youkilis, etc.
When the Yankees come to Fenway who will get the most boos…probably people like Arod and Jeter…..because they are really good!
Fans usually only hate really good players on the opposing team….not mediocre ones. Just my take on things.
Compare Paul O’neill’s numbers with Derek Jeter’s numbers and then tell me that Jeter couldn’t have batted third.
Jeter couldn’t have batted #3 fulltime, there I said it.
“There are no more important offensive stats than OBP and SLG”
Which team wins? The one with higher OPB/SLG or the one with more runs???? OPB and slugging are very important stats, but it’s smoked filled coffee house BS if it doesn’t translate to production. Giambi’s on pace to drive in 85-90 runs and score about 80. That’s not great production. What are they getting out of that OBP??? Aside from the opportunity for Cano to make more outs. If he’s not homering, he’s scoring less than 1/4 of the times he gets on base. His numbers with RISP are disastarous.
“When you say you “hate†him isn’t that an acknowledgement that he is an impact player? ”
yeah, i guess
“Fans usually only hate really good players on the opposing team….not mediocre ones. Just my take on things.”
his ugliness does help though
I think Youkilis is a whiney player, a person who has temper control issues, who flops and acts like he is dying when he gets hit by a pitch. He even is having trouble with Manny. Impact player? A few times, but it isn’t repect that gets him the jeers, that is a big difference.
I wouldn’t want Youkilis on the Yankees. I can’t stand Manny either, but while I wouldn’t be his number one fan, I wouldn’t hate that he is on the team I root for. Youkilis would drive me away from following the Yankees as much as I do.
Fredo,
Runs scored or RBI’s shouldn’t make any difference for an individual player’s performance. Those stats hold water only when discussing the team’s performance as a whole. Like I said if you want to talk about a player’s ability to drive runs in quote his batting average with RISP. In that case you would be right because Giambi’s BA w/ RISP is god-awful.
no it acknowlidges that he is an ugly piece of sh*t overrated, b*tch*ss who any yankee or red sox fan should despise simply because they have to look at him
BA w/RISP does have the virtue of describing what actually happened, but isn’t a very good predictive measure or a very good measure of offensive ability. It has a large random element. It’s pretty settled that OBP and SLG are much better at describing the actual offensive performance level of a player
It amazes me how many stat freaks we have out there. Only someone who understands stats but doesn’t understand baseball would consider OBP and SLG the most important numbers to consider.
Sorry Charlie, neither number equates to the most important thing in offensive baseball… SCORING RUNS!
Sure, those numbers are iluminative of individual performance, but not of RELEVANT individual performance. It’s not how many times you get on base, but what happens. It’s not what your slug… it’s WHEN you slug.
If you can’t run effectively, if you don’t score a lot than your high obp is useless. Yes, that’s a function of the team, but boys, it is a team game.
A guy with two doubles and a walk in four official at bats, no runs, no RBI has a better OBP and SLG than a guy who goes 1-for-5 with a grand slam. But one helped his team win and the other helped his stats.
Runs and RBI will be king as long as the win goes to the team with the most runs. If/when baseball games are decided by the number of baserunners the two teams had then OBP will move to the top of the stat sheet.
We talk on this and other sites about Jeter’s value transcending his stats. One of the reasons for that is howmany runs he scores. He goes first-to-third (there’s no stats for that). He steals bases, he advances on deep fly outs… all those things contribute to scoring runs and that contributes to winning games.
I gotta admit, I am on board with trading Melky for some pitching help (even if it is mediocre). There was a link on MLB Trade Rumors to an article in favor of this.
With Brett Gardner flashing speed and defense in Scranton and Austin Jackson not too far behind, why not shop “He That Must Slide In To First Base” while his value is higher than it otherwise is?
Thoughts?
CB,
I have to agree with you on Youkilis.
He is uglier than sin, but he is a solid 1B with a sweet stick.
It pains me to say this, but I’d take him over Giambi any day of the week.