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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pettitte and Rivera: 54 times a charm

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Podcast on Jun 28, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Andy Pettitte has won a game Mariano Rivera has saved 54 times. The record for such a combination is 55 for Oakland’s Bob Welch and Dennis Eckersley.

Pettitte’s last three games: 27 19 3 3 7 23. He’s 3-0 with a 1.00 ERA. Oh, and he has been a better second-half pitcher.

The Mets are 9-8 in games Johan Santana (7-7) has started. What do you figure he would be with the Yankees? He has allowed nine earned runs in his last 32 innings and not won a game. Enjoy that long contract with an aging team that has a desolate farm system, Johan.

Here is Andy Pettitte talking about the big pickoff and how he stayed in the game after the rain delay:

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The worst part was when some TV dope asked him what he thought about pitching against “an ace” like Johan Santana. Pettitte was polite. I would have said. “Yeah, I’ve won 210 games. I was terrified.”

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298 Responses to “Pettitte and Rivera: 54 times a charm”

  1. jennifer- I got your back Girardi June 28th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    Love ya Andy.

    I mean wow what a diss on Andy. Like Andy is chop liver. Pete, spill the beans what dope reporter was it.

  2. bphill June 28th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    I think Andy is the ace hence the fact his record is better…

  3. islesfan June 28th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    I would have said, “I’ve won 210 games, 4 World Series rings and 7 Pennants. I outdueled John Smoltz in one of the best pitching duels in World Series history in a pivotal Game 5 on the road. I was terrified pitching against an ace who has never gotten out of the first round of the playoffs.

  4. michael June 28th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    haha, so true. the “ace” santana couldn’t outpitch the terrified andy pettite. sometimes people really buy into the hype too much. andy’s been great the past 4 or 5 times out.

  5. Confucius June 28th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    Do you all realize that, at this moment, with the game in Pittsburgh not yet decided, the Tampa Bay Rays have the best f$%#ing record in baseball?

    Someone end the insanity. Please.

  6. michael June 28th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    it’s not insanity. if you get the top pick every year, you better eventually have the best team. at some point, they were going to have success. im not surprised at all.

  7. jay destro June 28th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    I am so glad to be showered and in a relaxed position.

  8. Joe from Long Island June 28th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

    Be careful what you wish for.

  9. Mark (Free Brett Campaign) June 28th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

    Oh boy TJ Beam is in the game.

  10. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    Andy Pettitte’s response to facing an “ACE” in Johan:

    Gee guys I don’t know, it’s an honor to be on that same field w/ greatness I mean I’m surprised I got past the first batter, I had to train for Johan for 4 weeks before this game, God was he scary, I went into a cold swet in the morning just knowing Johan was starting on that mound I might have to sleep w/ the lights on just because of this night

  11. Nick in SF June 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    I’ll take the Ponsanity over the insanity.

    Meanwhile, another great outing by Tim Lincecum, 7 innings, no runs, 11 Ks’s to lead the NL.

  12. jennifer- I got your back Girardi June 28th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    Whoa Beam got out of it. :)

  13. Christian Toot June 28th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    Santana’s ERA remains very low, and the Yanks could sure use his presence in the rotation, but even though Kennedy, Hughes and Cabrera have all underperformed to various degrees I’m still delighted Santana isn’t a Yankee. Let’s all pray Cashman and co. retain their current patience level … it can all come crashing down with one or two brash moves.

  14. jennifer- I got your back Girardi June 28th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    Can anyone figure out who the dope was?

  15. michael June 28th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    hughes will be near santana quality on his own. kennedy will be a #3-4 in big leagues. melky – who knows.

  16. Mista Holmes June 28th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    Who cares what they are paying Santana?

    You really think dollars matter in the Bronx?

  17. Mista Holmes June 28th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    “hughes will be near santana quality on his own. kennedy will be a #3-4 in big leagues”

    What makes you think any of that is true?

    Santana has been the best pitcher in the game for 5 years now. Hughes doesn’t even have a third pitch and throws 91mph.

    Kennedy has the stuff for the NL.

  18. Eugie June 28th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    “hughes will be near santana quality on his own. kennedy will be a #3-4 in big leagues. melky – who knows.”

    Hughes is going to be a power pitcher? How?

  19. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    Can someone tell me why I care about a Pittsburgh/Tampa Bay game?

    Also, can someone please get this Rivera guy a Cy Young or something?

    Dude’s got a WHIP of 0.55

  20. Skippy June 28th, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    “Pettitte was polite.” Least surprising sentence of the day.

  21. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    Not to mention…Mo’s OPS against is .378

  22. michael June 28th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    i think hughes has the stuff to be a good #2, maybe even an ace. he hasnt been healthy enough to assess him truly in the bigs. everyone says he’s going to be real good. maybe santana level is a bit high, but he’ll be close imo. kennedy can be maddux like. melky might be a good 4th outfielder, im not sure i see him becoming a star. maybe though

  23. Marc from Portland Maine June 28th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    “Kennedy has the stuff for the NL.”

    Umm, Mista Holmes? Isn’t Santana the one with the stuff for the NL? And I don’t see him dominating anyone there.

  24. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    You really think dollars matter in the Bronx?

    Now it does, you see how GMs in NY are getting criticized for longterm deals, guess what before that never was the case, but w/ the new rules in luxtury tax the Yankees can’t bully the market like they use to otherwise your paying the fund for your competition.

  25. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    Santana has been the best pitcher in the game for 5 years now. Hughes doesn’t even have a third pitch and throws 91mph.

    Again Hughes is 21 ! 21 !

  26. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    Actually Hughes is 22 now, but the point is still the same.

  27. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:33 pm

    My mistake on him being 21 But please get that through your skull when people talk about Hughes understand he is 22 no it’s not a lie he really is 22 years old. The equivalent of a college pick.

  28. Nick in SF June 28th, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    If you haven’t made it by 22, give up.

    How about we forget about Hughes and actually try to get younger?

  29. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

    Uh, if you all want to see something interesting, check the line score for the dodgers/angels game…

  30. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

    I feel bad for Hughes, because he literally has to be perfect for the rest of his career to avoid being critisized by idiot Yankee fans. Just remember, Hughes didnt say, “dont trade me” so dont blame him

  31. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

    Ex: At 21 years old Ervin Santana threw and sat around 93 to 94 mph at 25 yrs. of age right now the radar gun in his last start read 100 mph. In the case of Philip Hughes he is still a baby, he may talk like a 28 yr. old but he is 22 years old.

  32. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    How many pitchers in the ML are younger than Hughes?

  33. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    The funny thing about Ervin. Those pitches didnt look like 100mph. They looked so much slower.

  34. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    Guys, seriously, check out the LAD/LAA line score.

    You will not see that every day.

    ****

    Hughes is extremely young and missed out on some MiL development. He should be fine, but the Yankees can’t expect the world from him straight off. Give him time.

  35. mel June 28th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Wow. SF just shut out Duchsherer (sub-2 ERA). Oakland outhit them 7-2.

  36. Zach in Port Jeff June 28th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Hughes will be the Yankees #3 starter by 2010, and settle into the #2 spot by 2011.

    There. I said it.

  37. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    In 5 year, the Mets will no longer have

    Pedro
    Alou
    Delgado
    Castillo
    Beltran
    Wagner
    Hernandez

    all of which are key parts of the team. Their farm system is awful. So unless they trade or sign free agents, Santana looks like the idiot, not Cashman

  38. JC in Japan June 28th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Jason Bay walk off HR!!

  39. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    How many pitchers in the ML are younger than Hughes?

    The Dodgers Kershaw and Thompson of the Reds

  40. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    BAY !

  41. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    haha the angels throwing a no no against the dodgers, yet losing 1-0

  42. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    Also, Pittsburgh just beat Tampa!

  43. will June 28th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    pirates win! THE PIRATES WIN!

  44. mel June 28th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    Hip Hip Hooray for Jason Bay.

    Only 4 back of Boston in loss column. 5 back of Tampa.

    Chip, chip, chip away.

  45. MikeEff June 28th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

    rebecca you ( and I ) care because they have the best record in baseball after those who shall not be named.

    luckily jason bay came through. sox and rays both lose

  46. Nick in SF June 28th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    That was great, but you guys were right about the Pirates’ announcers being seriously cheesy.

    And fantastic job by Lincecum and the Giants.

    So, you say there’s something worth checking out in LA?

  47. yankeestech June 28th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    You guys expect Phil Hughes to gain speed as he ages?

  48. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    “The Dodgers Kershaw and Thompson of the Reds”

    And I know Kershaw is highly touted, dont know about Thompson, but Kershaw isnt doing great. Unless you have a 98mph fastball like Joba, chances are slim to be dominant in early career

  49. yankeestech June 28th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    You guys expect Phil Hughes to gain some speed as he ages.

  50. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    “So, you say there’s something worth checking out in LA?”

    Angels are throwing a No hitter against the Dodgers, yet the Dodgers are up 1-0

  51. Bob(the original) June 28th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    Andy’s response should have been:

    “They don’t call me Big Game Andy for nothing dude. Wanna see my rings?”

  52. eric in australia June 28th, 2008 at 11:46 pm

    Once Mo hits 1000 IP for his career (he’s at 989 now), he will qualify as the all-time leader in ERA+. He’ll come in at about an ERA+ of 199…. next best is Pedro at 158 and there’s nobody else above 150. Hoffman is at 144, but yet to qualify.
    That figure shows just how great mo has been, and proves that no reliever ever comes close. Goose was at 126.
    amazing

  53. yankeestech June 28th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    I hate the fact Cashman said that Phil Hughes might not be back in the majors this year.. You would think with the holes we have in our rotation he would be a great option to plug in the back of the rotation.

  54. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    You guys expect Phil Hughes to gain speed as he ages?
    There is no reason not too, he was plucked out of H.S. he touched 95 in ST there is no reason not to think he can gain velocity.

  55. mel June 28th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    How’s the resurgence of Brad Lidge? He’s a comeback player of the year candidate.

  56. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    I love baseball days like today.

  57. Bob(the original) June 28th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    but you guys were right about the Pirates’ announcers being seriously cheesy.

    Extra Innings had the Pirates feed for all the Yanks games there. They were brutal. I had to mute after a while.

  58. Cajun Yankee June 28th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    Way to go Andy!

    From one Cajun Yankee to another.

  59. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 28th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    mel: Really? But what about Mike Mussina?

  60. Rich June 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    Did you guys notice how Andy pumped his fist after picking off Reyes? Someone needs to tell him to control his emotions on the mound. And don’t get me started on that home-plate umpire; he pumped his fist after every strike!

  61. Bob(the original) June 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    Can Giambi win it again?

  62. DFox June 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    To all the people saying Hughes is going to be good as Santana: Doesn’t it scare you at all that when Hughes was pitching the no-hitter in Texas he was hitting 94 with his fastball? He comes back this year, and can barely reach 90, and gets smacked around, and then proceeded to claim he never had a 94mph fastball. That scares me a lot. Maybe what we saw when Hughes was good was what he could do with a 94mph fastball, and not the 89 he was featuring this year.

  63. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    I hate the fact Cashman said that Phil Hughes might not be back in the majors this year

    I’m betting they are reworking his mechanics, this is a kid that can throw harder than he has. His sister whether it was a lie or not was quoted saying he hit 100 mph in H.S. on a radar gun, the scout said I guess he won’t be going to college after that. I’d like to see this kid come back and top out at 96 atleast until then keep working on him.

  64. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    I agree Rebecca. Yankees win. Mets lose. Red Sox lose. Rays lose. A’s lose. Twins lose.

  65. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:54 pm

    “To all the people saying Hughes is going to be good as Santana: Doesn’t it scare you at all that when Hughes was pitching the no-hitter in Texas he was hitting 94 with his fastball? He comes back this year, and can barely reach 90, and gets smacked around, and then proceeded to claim he never had a 94mph fastball. That scares me a lot. Maybe what we saw when Hughes was good was what he could do with a 94mph fastball, and not the 89 he was featuring this year.”

    Modesty scares you? The guy isnt a cocky SOB. Hes not going to come out and say, ” Yeah I pitch 97, and I plan on blowing it passed everyone I face” The radar guns dont lie

  66. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    Mike Mussina def deserves Comeback player of the year

  67. David Robertson for Setup June 28th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

    “To all the people saying Hughes is going to be good as Santana: Doesn’t it scare you at all that when Hughes was pitching the no-hitter in Texas he was hitting 94 with his fastball? He comes back this year, and can barely reach 90, and gets smacked around, and then proceeded to claim he never had a 94mph fastball. That scares me a lot. Maybe what we saw when Hughes was good was what he could do with a 94mph fastball, and not the 89 he was featuring this year.”

    Modesty scares you?

    The guy isnt going to come out and say he pitches 95 or 96 and when he doesnt, people like you panic. If he says he tops out at 92 and hits 95, people think its great

  68. mel June 28th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

    Rebecca,

    Heard it on the radio the other day. Don’t they give one in each league?

    BTW, I feel for Lidge. He wasn’t the same after that Pujols HR. Yanked around in Houston. Less than enthusiastic welcome by the Phillies fans. Now he’s perfect with 18 saves.

    Good story.

    I’m also rooting for Moose to hit the magic number this year.

  69. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    mel: Ah, right, dunno why I thought Lidge was AL right there…

  70. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    The only thing that concerned me w/ Hughes was the BS, the features his profile is 93-97 mph, mid 90′s, 95 mph in H.S and if this ain’t true why would his own mom say it ?

    Dori cackled as she tweaks her youngest child, laughing often as she talked about his success with a mixture of pride and perspective. She readily admits her initial naiveté about the life of a professional baseball player, and had hoped her son would go to college because “if he goes to college, he’ll marry the right girl and if he goes to play
    professional baseball, he’ll marry a cocktail waitress.”

    “I was so against it,” she said of Hughes turning down a full scholarship to Santa Clara so he could enter the major-league draft. “I remember we were at a game somewhere when PJ was in high school, and the field had a radar gun and one of those boards that showed how fast he was throwing. He threw the ball, and it said 100 mph, and right after that happened, one of the scouts who was there came up to me and said, ‘Well, Mom, he won’t be going to college,’ and I was just like, ‘Excuse me?’ I didn’t know what he was talking about.”

  71. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    “Modesty scares you?

    The guy isnt going to come out and say he pitches 95 or 96 and when he doesnt, people like you panic. If he says he tops out at 92 and hits 95, people think its great”

    You misunderstood what I said. He hit 94 during the game in Texas. If I remember correctly, when asked why he wasn’t hitting 94 this year, he said he never threw that hard, but then went on to NEVER hit 94 again this year… It’s not like he said he topped out at 91 this year and then was hitting 94 all the time, that was last year for a short period of time. That would be like in Joba’s next start he throws 90-92 the whole game and when asked why he wasn’t throwing 96, he says “well I always topped out at 92. That wouldn’t scare you with Joba? Then why wouldn’t it scare you with Hughes?

    The bottom line is Hughes is a question mark. A poster above said he might not even be back in the majors this year. I wasn’t aware of that. If you think Hughes is anything but a giant question mark at this point then you’re deceiving yourself.

  72. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:04 am

    This was Phil’s mom when she spoke about Phil.

    Dori cackled as she tweaks her youngest child, laughing often as she talked about his success with a mixture of pride and perspective. She readily admits her initial naiveté about the life of a professional baseball player, and had hoped her son would go to college because “if he goes to college, he’ll marry the right girl and if he goes to play
    professional baseball, he’ll marry a cocktail waitress.”

    “I was so against it,” she said of Hughes turning down a full scholarship to Santa Clara so he could enter the major-league draft. “I remember we were at a game somewhere when PJ was in high school, and the field had a radar gun and one of those boards that showed how fast he was throwing. He threw the ball, and it said 100 mph, and right after that happened, one of the scouts who was there came up to me and said, ‘Well, Mom, he won’t be going to college,’ and I was just like, ‘Excuse me?’ I didn’t know what he was talking about.”

  73. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:05 am

    Hughes not coming back to the majors this year is precautionary. It all depends on if a move is done, or how Ponson does. And Hughes was hitting 95 in ST

  74. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:06 am

    My posts are getting modified it had a quote from Phil’s mom about him hitting 100 infront of a scout.

  75. mel June 29th, 2008 at 12:06 am

    lol, DFox. Please relax.

    The fate of humankind does not rest on the shoulders of Phil Hughes.

    As Carrie once said, “Let’s take that passion and cure cancer or something.”

    :)

  76. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:07 am

    …They took weaver out.

    Not fair. Now I don’t get my baseball anamoly! :(

  77. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:10 am

    Im starting to think Fox is a Troll. Anyone who takes Hughes not hitting 95 miles an hour with what 3 broken ribs? as being scary really doesnt know what he is talking about.

  78. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:11 am

    mel, I’m not worried about Hughes. Haha, I mean what do you think, I’m dying for him to come back up so he could continue to grace them with his 9 era? The point I’m making is they passed up on Santana for a question mark that’s going to spend this year in the minors. Hughes was advertised as he was going to be making at LEAST progress this year. Progress meaning getting major league experience and going through growing pains. He can’t even do that when he’s hurt all year… I mean this is the asset they wanted to hold on to instead of getting Santana. Do I think the Yankees need Santana? No, I just think he could have helped them a lot. I still believe the Yankees will win the world series this year but they do need another semi-solid starter.

  79. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:11 am

    Wait. Weaver is still pitching.

    How the heck…

  80. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:12 am

    Nevermind. ESPN is screwing with my mind.

  81. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:14 am

    No he’s not. Figgins PH’d for him, so he’s out of the game. Arredondo’s pitching in the bottom of the 7th with one out. 3-2 count now.

  82. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:14 am

    “Im starting to think Fox is a Troll. Anyone who takes Hughes not hitting 95 miles an hour with what 3 broken ribs? as being scary really doesnt know what he is talking about.”

    Yep, I’m a troll because I’m talking realistic about Hughes. You’re the one who is probably a troll, humoring us with “he’s probably a number 1″. That’s so sarcastic it’s bordering on trolling. Joba Chamberlain can be a number 1. Not Hughes. Joba hasn’t had one growing pain yet, has unbelievable stuff, and he’s still not a guaranteed number 1. Stop touting Hughes as something we all know he’s not.

    And you don’t know when his injury occurred. I doubt he had it all this season. That’s just a ready made excuse and if you want to use ready made excuses then there’s no way to really argue with you.

  83. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:15 am

    Anyone who takes Hughes not hitting 95 miles an hour with what 3 broken ribs? as being scary really doesnt know what he is talking about.

    If anything that pissed me off I mean he hid an injury, there is no way he could not know he had 3 broken ribs, and I think it’s been since ST after that Marlins game I sensed something was a bit off.

  84. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:15 am

    Santana is a question mark too. 130M for 6 years of service for a 29 year old with the likely hood of having elbow problems soon, or a 22 year old that doesnt need to be paid for another what 2 years, and then wont demand big money until he is 29ish which is 7 years away. So we have Hughes for cheap longer than the Mets have Santana for alot of money

  85. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:17 am

    “Yep, I’m a troll because I’m talking realistic about Hughes. You’re the one who is probably a troll, humoring us with “he’s probably a number 1″. That’s so sarcastic it’s bordering on trolling. Joba Chamberlain can be a number 1. Not Hughes. Joba hasn’t had one growing pain yet, has unbelievable stuff, and he’s still not a guaranteed number 1. Stop touting Hughes as something we all know he’s not.
    And you don’t know when his injury occurred. I doubt he had it all this season. That’s just a ready made excuse and if you want to use ready made excuses then there’s no way to really argue with you.”

    Realistic? You make it seem like this 22 year old kid is washed up already. HE WAS PROJECTED AS A #1. Its not my opinion, its baseball scouts opinions. And I said Joba will be the #1 befor eHughes because Joba is a power pitcher.

    I call Met troll on Fox

  86. mel June 29th, 2008 at 12:18 am

    DFox,

    No, no. You misunderstand. Those of us who did not favor the Santana trade know that Hughes is not Santana. His inexperience (pressuring out this season) and his fondness of the DL have tempered our expectations of him. We are not expecting him to save the world. We’re willing to patient and wait for that particular tree to bear fruit.

    And Hughes is not the reason we didn’t get Santana. It was more philosophical than anything. You don’t think that Smith would’ve taken a package that was even slightly better than the Carlos Gomez one?

    I was just having some fun. Never mind what I said.

  87. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 12:19 am

    Is this rumor true? Did the Yanks really pass up a chance to get Johan Santana? That’s ridiculous. Nobody passes up a chance like that…not for a couple of nobodys and only have to pay bare minimum wage for him. Somebody needs to fire the idiot that passed on this steal. Santana is a lock to win 25-30 games a year for the nect 15 year,

  88. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:19 am

    I love how you call me a troll yet, im very positive about the player, and your EXTREMELY negative. Anyone who thinks last years top MLB prospect is washed up gets my troll vote

  89. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 12:20 am

    It’s the first time that I’ve heard of this.

  90. mel June 29th, 2008 at 12:20 am

    DFox is not a Met troll. They would never predict the Yankees winning the World Series this year.

  91. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:21 am

    Oh, and the last trade offer from the Twins to us, was Santana for Wang, Melky, and Kennedy.

    Oh but I forgot, you called Wang getting injured this year too right? Hes washed up as well?

  92. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 12:22 am

    Please, people, Mr. Fox can be wrong without being a troll (one can also be a troll without being wrong). Lots of people who love the Yankees have passionate, yet incorrect, opinions about the Santana non-trade, about Joba, etc.

    Yes, Hughes is a question mark because we’ve seen what he’s capable of but we haven’t seen him do it over any period of time. If Joba grows to be the Joba we think he can be, it would be hard for Hughes to top that, and perhaps hard for him to top what Wang can be. But Hughes can still be a great pitcher.

  93. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:24 am

    I don’t know why this game is amusing me so much, but it is.

  94. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:24 am

    I think we wait for Hughes to reach 25 before we call him a bust or injury prone ok Fox?

  95. Patrick Bateman June 29th, 2008 at 12:26 am

    Kim Jones had the best question yesterday to Sidney Ponson.

    “Sidney did you get a haircut today?”

  96. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:27 am

    I’m quite enjoying it myself. It’s always awesome that you’ve got a choice between Dodgers and Angels broadcasters…KCAL gets the vote every time. And besides, I’ve never seen a game like this in my life.

    It’s also an excuse to check up on Joe Torre. 1 down in the bottom of the 8th.

  97. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:27 am

    The Anamoly is on ESPN right now.

  98. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:29 am

    That Kim Jones question was probably the greatest question ever asked in baseball history.

    Kim Jones: “Did you happen to get a haircut?”
    Ponson: “No, last week”

  99. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:29 am

    ESPN curses everything. Dang it. Are they showing MY 13 or KCAL 9?

  100. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:30 am

    Umm mel, speak for yourself… Not everyone is realistic like you. A lot of the people here, some have even said in this post, that they believe Hughes will be as good as Santana. I agree that Hughes will be very good. I’m just saying it’s not a slam dunk that the combined assets of him and Ian Kennedy were not worth giving up for Santana. And you have to include Kennedy in that because it’s common knowledge if the Twins only asked for Hughes and not Kennedy the Yankees would have done it.

    Nick in SF, I agree 100%. All I’m debating is whether or not the combined duo of Hughes and Kennedy outweigh what Santana could have done for the Yankees. I mean it’s not such a far-fetched debate. I agree Kennedy and Hughes will both be good pitchers, but you know what the Yankees have a lot of good pitchers in their farm system even if you take away kennedy and Hughes…

  101. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Wow, I thought Anderson was going to drop that or it would go over his head…I’d love it if the game ends like this. I can just see the Times tomorrow…

  102. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Ha, I didn’t even consider that aspect of it, the Dodgers wouldn’t bat in the bottom of the 9th to try to not get no-hit if the Angels don’t score.

  103. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:32 am

    1 more inning.

    By your website Rebecca, we need Paul O’neill to come back very soon. Were 7-2 when he is in the booth

  104. Guiseppe Franco June 29th, 2008 at 12:33 am

    Who cares whether Hughes turns out to be a #1 starter or not.

    If he turns out to be very good, but not spectacular, he’ll help this team win games for years to come.

    I only care about Hughes eventually turning into a guy who eats 6 IP per start and gives his team a chance to win every 5 days.

    All the speculation whether he’s going to be a true “ace” or not is stupid and sinks to the mentality of Mike and the Mad Dog.

    Stack your rotation with five very good pitchers and this team will win a ton of games and be in the hunt for the World Series every year.

  105. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:34 am

    Its not an official No hitter though. It has to be pitched 9 innings

  106. mel June 29th, 2008 at 12:35 am

    DFox,

    I never claimed that there were a lot of level-headed here. :)

    I’m just glad we won today. Not so many piners.

  107. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:35 am

    I hate this BBTN battle of the bands crap

  108. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:35 am

    If you the Angels would you want to score in this game ?

  109. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 12:36 am

    ESPN is seriously dropping the ball now. Plus I did not need to see that closeup of Gammons’ wrinkled hands.

  110. JC in Japan June 29th, 2008 at 12:37 am

    wow, Dodgers is one out away to win the game without a hit.

  111. Guiseppe Franco June 29th, 2008 at 12:37 am

    DFox,

    Why are you rehashing the same old Santana argument went that ship sailed 8 months ago?

    For the record, I was against the deal and I’m still against it. The move was made for the long term benefits in mind.

    See what happens in 5 years and then evaluate the non-deal.

  112. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 12:37 am

    It’s also not a “slam dunk” that Santana can remain healthy and effective for the length of that contract. It was the amount of talent plus the size of the contral that turned the Yankee front office off, as well as quite a few of the fans. Not that difficult to understand, really, unless you don’t want to understand it.

  113. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:39 am

    Dang that Kendrick…

  114. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:40 am

    DAMN YOU HOWIE !

  115. pat June 29th, 2008 at 12:41 am

    For those who think that the Yanks are going to try and buy themselves a penant this year, Cash has some advice, find a new binky cause this bank is closed.

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....447.column

  116. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:41 am

    The whole Santana thing is the same reason were not getting Sabathia during the season. Money + top prosects dont = Sabathia or Santana

    I hate the BBTN guy that says for EVERY homerun “Fill thine horn with oil, and go”

  117. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:42 am

    And dang that Napoli for working a walk.

    Come on Saito. I want to see this.

  118. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:43 am

    Guiseppe Franco, I’ll tell you exactly why I’m rehashing it… Because as I was watching the Met game today, I was just thinking, how nice would it be to have this guy as our 4th starter? I mean not even seriously, just like a “what if” sort of thing. And then I compared it to what Hughes and Kennedy are doing for the Yankees right now, and that was depressing. Also, I’m well aware that they were going to have growing pains. But anyone here who says they expected Hughes AND Kennedy to not be in the major leagues at this point of time is a flat out liar.

  119. Steph June 29th, 2008 at 12:44 am

    Freakin. Awesome.

  120. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Mission 2708 June 29th, 2008 at 12:45 am

    Angels lose.

    Part of me is endlessly amused, the other part of me feels bad.

  121. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:45 am

    The Dodgers win w/o a basehit

  122. mel June 29th, 2008 at 12:45 am

    Just the way Torre drew up the shutout. Billingsley for 7. Broxton for 1. Saito closes it out. Oh yeah. And being no-hit.

  123. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:47 am

    Dfox, its over, now you get over it

  124. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 12:48 am

    It would be nice indeed to have Santana as our 4th starter in June of 2008, but that doesn’t tell you much about whether or not it would have been a good deal in the long run.

  125. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 12:49 am

    (of course the part about Santana being the #4 starter is just a joke — he would be and would be expected to the the #1 ACE of the staff)

  126. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:50 am

    People are clamoring for Yankees general manager Brian Cashman to stop sitting there and do something already — something big — to improve the Yankees’ tattered pitching staff.

    Go get C.C. Sabathia, they scream. Pry Erik Bedard out of Seattle. Enough with these journeymen and castoffs and overmatched kids that the Yankees keep trotting out, even on occasions like the Subway Series.

    Cashman hears you, all right. And he disagrees.

    “It’s almost like doing what we used to do has become people’s binky, their pacifier, their security blanket,” Cashman said with a mix of derision and weariness Saturday.

    You tell them Cash and that goes for stupid nay sayers like John Heyman too

  127. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:50 am

    Santana as a #4 is a joke. Even if he meant Pettitte as #4 is a joke

  128. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:52 am

    Well Cash could also be saying this so Red Sox and Cubs dont drive up the price and try and get a last minute deal for him

  129. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:53 am

    “Dfox, its over, now you get over it”

    Oh don’t worry, I’m over it, because I believe the Yankees have their own Santana in Joba Chamberlain. But keep in mind that if Joba completely flopped like his two buddies, we’d all be screaming right now because the Yankees would have two pitchers, and that would be counting Mussina.

  130. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 12:53 am

    “This guy is a six-inning pitcher on a good day.”

    I don’t get it. Why does Peter Abr. hate on Johan so much? I think it is because Pete is desperate to try to justify the Yankees not trading for Santana. But the thing is Santana’s performance so far in 2008 really has nothing to do with whether or not they should have made the trade. He’s the best pitcher in baseball. There is no need to try to make him seem like a lousy or flawed pitcher. The reason the Yankees didn’t make the trade is because they didn’t want to trade away the farm and commit 120+ million dollars to a starting pitcher. That really is the end of it there. Johan is still awesome, but it still wouldn’t have made sense for the Yankees to trade for him. So I don’t get why Pete goes out of his way to rip Santana all the time.

    And you are usually completely wrong in your analysis anyway. Santana is a “6 inning pitcher on a good day”? Wow, you sound like one of the “dopes” that you are always making fun of. Here are the number of times Santana has exceed 6 inning in a start:

    2008 – 11 out of 16 starts (69%)
    2007 – 20 out of 33 starts (61%)
    2006 – 26 out of 34 starts (76%)
    2005 – 24 out of 33 starts (73%)
    2004 – 24 out of 34 starts (71%)

    Since the start of 2004 Santana has exceeded 6 innings in 70% of his starts. Do you really think that’s a bad thing??? Also, are you insane?

    To show you just how incorrect and absurd you are, I’ll use a pitcher that you are in love with and Yankee fans are all familar with: Chien Ming Wang. I am not comparing him to Santana on ERA or anything like that because we all know Santana absolutely kills him there. But one thing Wang is always known for is his ability to pitch deep into games. He is a workhorse, right? I agree that this is one of his most valuable assets to the team. He has saved the bullpen on numerous occasions. So let’s see how often he has exceeded 6 innings in his starts:

    Here is Wang:

    2008: 8 out of 15 starts (53%)
    2007: 20 out of 30 starts (67%)
    2006: 18 out of 33 starts (55%)
    2005: 13 out of 17 starts (76%)

    In total, Wang has exceeded 6 innings in 62% of his starts.

    Wang is a legit workhorse, and he exceeds 6 innings in 62% of his starts. Santana does it 70% of the time. This is not meant in any way as a knock on Wang. It is only meant to show that Santana is amazing, and he does pitch deep into games even though Peter believes otherwise. Pete Abr. is completely incorrect on that claim that Santana is a “six-inning pitcher on a good day”. In fact, you could argue that a more accurate statement is that he is only a 6-inning pitcher on a bad day.

    And just in case you aren’t convinced with the Wang example, I’ll also use Brandon Webb as another example. He is another workhorse pitcher who is known for pitching deep into games. And unlike Wang, he can actually hold a candle to Santana when it comes to ERA and most other stats. In other words, he is also one of the elite pitchers in the game. Let’s see how many times he has exceeded 6 innings in a start:

    2008: 9 out of 16 (56%)
    2007: 25 out of 34 (74%)
    2006: 23 out of 33 (70%)
    2005: 25 out of 33 (76%)
    2004: 15 out of 35 (43%)

    Webb has done it in 64% of his starts since 2004. And even if you take out his 2004 season, it bounces up to 71% of the time.

    Once again, Santana has done it 70% of the time.

    Peter, you are being very unfair to Johan. He is one of the most durable pitchers in baseball. He not only pitches deep into games, but he never gets injured. Also, he rarely ever has a start where he gets bombed out of the game prior to the fifth inning. That might not sound like a great acommplishment, but look up any other elite pitcher in baseball over the last few years and you’ll see that Santana’s ability to always give a consistent number of innings in each start is largely unmatched. He gives over 200 innings each year with elite stats across the board, including his average IP per start. I think you are just biased against him so you try to attack him whenver you can. Please stop doing that, because you are flat-out incorrect in your assessment of Johan. He is the best pitcher in baseball. And the Yankees made the right move in not trading for him, but it’s not because he is some fragile slouch who cannot pitch deep into games. You need to wake up already if that’s what you are seeing with Johan.

    So go back to making fun of mediocre pitchers like Bronson Arroyo. Trying to insult the best pitcher in the game is only making you look foolish.

  131. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 12:54 am

    That game was like Andy Hawkins game against the White Sox in 1990…the difference was that the Yanks made 4 errors and Hawkins pitched a complete game 8 inning 4-0 loss. He did, however walk 5.

  132. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:55 am

    The part about Santana being their number 4 was a joke and not a joke. He wouldn’t be expected nor be getting paid as a number 4, but if he was on this team, based on how he’s performed this year, wouldn’t you put Wang, Pettitte, Joba, and Mussina ahead of him? OK, maybe Santana ahead of Mussina, but that’s it for me. He’s been good, but Pettitte, Wang and Joba have certainly been better.

  133. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:56 am

    “Oh don’t worry, I’m over it, because I believe the Yankees have their own Santana in Joba Chamberlain. But keep in mind that if Joba completely flopped like his two buddies, we’d all be screaming right now because the Yankees would have two pitchers, and that would be counting Mussina.”

    Dont get ahead of yourself buddy. Chamberlain has faced NL teams. Wait till after next Sundays game against the Saux to claim him as an ACE. And anything Mussina does after 10 wins is icing on the cake for me, I thought this would be his max this year

  134. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 12:58 am

    LOL these Johan Santana fans really got to give it a rest already. A suppose to be Cy Young SP is 7-7 in a league he should be dominating, he’s not even the best SP in his own division.

  135. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 12:58 am

    Are you serious? How he has done this year? He has like a 2.93 (give or take a few) ERA. Im assuming you take the 7-7 record as how good he is? Your becoming a joke dude, I cant take you seriously

  136. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 12:59 am

    Wow, great post YoDawg. Those stats are very interesting.

  137. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:00 am

    “LOL these Johan Santana fans really got to give it a rest already. A suppose to be Cy Young SP is 7-7 in a league he should be dominating, he’s not even the best SP in his own division.”

    His ERA is 2.93. His team is terrible which is the reason he is 7-7. But your right, he should look like a mega CY Young in the NL, and he isnt. But in the Yankees rotation, he wouldnt be 7-7.

  138. Guiseppe Franco June 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am

    DFox,

    You might as well get over it.

    The non-move wasn’t made for 2008. It was made for 2009 and beyond.

    Everything Cashman has done in the last year clearly illustrates that the days of trading away highly-touted youngsters for players in decline with huge salaries is over.

    That was the strategy this team embraced from 2001 to 2005 and it obviously didn’t work. Time for a new strategy.

    The only way to rebuild the core of this team is to emphasize player development and promote from within. That’s the truth.

    Every baseball dynasty in the last 50 years from the Yanks of the late 90s to the Big Red Machine to the Braves of the 90s were all built from youth and strong player development.

    If the Yanks want to build another dynasty, they’re gonna have to rebuild it the same way again.

    What happens when a team keeps making trades for players in decline is they turn into the Mets – an organization that’s a huge mess with no young talent on the farm to speak of.

    Take a good look at Ken Davidoff’s article from yesterday and you’ll see what I’m talking about:

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....482.column

  139. Dr. J June 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am

    Just sign Sheets in the off-season for draft picks.

  140. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 1:03 am

    “Are you serious? How he has done this year? He has like a 2.93 (give or take a few) ERA. Im assuming you take the 7-7 record as how good he is? Your becoming a joke dude, I cant take you seriously”

    You forgot about the part where he manages to give up grand slams to pitchers who bat 5 times a year. Sorry, that’s pretty inexcusable.

    And before you said you think Hughes will be a #1 starter. Me saying I believe Joba will be a number 1 starter is much more believable than your shenanigans.

  141. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:04 am

    Signing Sheets would be worse than the Pavano deal

  142. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:06 am

    “You forgot about the part where he manages to give up grand slams to pitchers who bat 5 times a year. Sorry, that’s pretty inexcusable.
    And before you said you think Hughes will be a #1 starter. Me saying I believe Joba will be a number 1 starter is much more believable than your shenanigans.”

    So now your sh itting on Santana when you were just praising him. It was a bad pitch and a bad mistake. So he sucks because of a grandslam to a pitcher?

    And Hughes HAS BEEN PEGGED AS A #1 PITCHER BY SCOUTS. Yes right now Joba looks to be the #1 in 3-4 years, but not right now. He hasnt faced any good teams yet. Stop with the stupid posts

  143. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:07 am

    I just caught the tail end of what’s going on here, but I just wanted to add that anybody who thinks that Pettitte or Mussina or even Wang are having better seasons than Santana right now is pretty ridiculous.

  144. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 1:07 am

    His ERA is 2.93. His team is terrible which is the reason he is 7-7. But your right, he should look like a mega CY Young in the NL, and he isnt. But in the Yankees rotation, he wouldnt be 7-7.

    Please if it wasn’t for Pedro Feliciano and Joe Smith saving his butt w/ inherited runners that ERA would be worse, And I don’t mean to correct you but he has a
    3.01 ERA in the NL, and oh yeh where was all this talk about Johan when the Angels was smacking him around and the excuses kept coming, Felix Hernandez closes his eyes GRANDSLAM ! I’m getting tired of this debate.

  145. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 1:08 am

    The Braves have never had a dynasty in the 1990′s or any other time and the Reds winning two series in a row don’t make any more of a dynasty than the Red Sox have.

  146. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:09 am

    Who did better in the 2007 playoffs Foxxy boy? Hughes or Chamberlain ? Hughes or Santana?

    Could be wrong, but I believe thats Hughes

  147. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 1:09 am

    Guiseppe Franco, you’re missing my point. I’m admitting I’m using hindsight for what I’m saying… I AGREED with the non-move before the season. But you’re all looking at it like sore-fans because the Mets got Santana.

    Like many things in life, the Yankees had something called a PLAN. The plan was to have Kennedy and Hughes in the MAJORS while sorting out their growing pains. That’s how it was all advertised. That’s why they didn’t go for Santana, because they thought their plan would be semi-successful. The plan completely back-fired. It’s OK to admit it. I’m as big a Yankee fan as anyone here, but I also am level headed enough to realize there was a plan in place of why they didn’t get Santana, and that plan completely flopped. The Yankees have enough prospects for 4 years from now. Hughes and Kennedy were IN the majors when the Santana deal was going down. You people are so head-strong that you’re trying to make it seem as if you all thought Kennedy and Hughes were going to take a GIGANTIC step backwards.

    So please, don’t go saying “well this was the organizations plan”. No it wasn’t. Again, the plan was to have two major league ready pitchers work out their issues in the major leagues. Growing pains, yes, spending the season in the minors or injured? No, that was far from the plan.

  148. JC in Japan June 29th, 2008 at 1:10 am

    The interesting thing is that Twins (without Santana) has better year than Mets (with Santana)!

  149. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:11 am

    I think we’re all on the same page. More or less. Johan has a 2.93 in the NL.

    New subject.

    What’s the team going to do if they lose Matsui for the season? (I know. This is opening up the Gardner scab, but let’s talk about something else besides Johan.)

  150. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:11 am

    JC in japan

    Thats because Wright is underachieving, Reyes is overrated and showing it, and the rest of their team is washed up. Not to mention Beltran doesnt want to be in NY anymore

  151. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:12 am

    “I think we’re all on the same page. More or less. Johan has a 2.93 in the NL.
    New subject.
    What’s the team going to do if they lose Matsui for the season? (I know. This is opening up the Gardner scab, but let’s talk about something else besides Johan.)”

    Haha, I dont wanna start a mess, but i’d like Gardner, but I like Christian as well. As long as Shelley Duncan never returns.

  152. DFox June 29th, 2008 at 1:13 am

    YoDawg, Santana has a 3.01 era and that doesn’t even include the 4 runs he surrendered to an AL pitcher. What do you add for a NL to AL calculation? Like 1? So that’s 4. Yes, I think Andy Pettitte is better than a 4 era, his record is better, and not to mention he out-dueled Santana today.

  153. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:13 am

    YoDawg,

    Don’t mind us. We’re just trying to convince ourselves we don’t need Johan. We’d love to have him, but we don’t.

  154. munchabuncha June 29th, 2008 at 1:14 am

    Hmmm, something tells me that Pete struck a nerve with Mets fan YoDawg or something.

  155. Primeo June 29th, 2008 at 1:15 am

    Those of you on the whole “pitching in the National League is sooooo much esier” kick are way off. This season the NL is the better offensive league. And more specific to JOhan Santana, of the 4 teams that he has to face in the NL East, 3 of them have some of the top offense in all of baseball – Phili, Atlanta, Florida. The Nationals are garbage though. But the point is, the NL is better at hitting than the AL is this year. And the NL East has 3 really tough offense for pitchers to face. Those 3 teams have better offenses than any top 3 offenses in any other division in baseball, including the AL East.

  156. Guiseppe Franco June 29th, 2008 at 1:16 am

    DFox,

    Injuries have changed those plans. That’s not Cashman’s fault anymore than Wang’s injury is his fault.

    Injuries happen. It’s part of the game like anything else.

    The only thing they can do now is weather the storm and piece this rotation together until the cavalry returns.

  157. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:18 am

    Hey muncha maybe you should read a little more carefully. Peter is wrong about Johan, and he has been ripping at him for over half a year now. That’s why I vented. This has nothing to do with him being a Met. I’m just looking at his performance indpenent of what uniform he wears. Also, I stated that I agreed the Yankees made the right move at the time. And I still mostly believe that, even though I do still think that Johan is the best pitcher in baseball.

  158. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:18 am

    I like that Fox. The Grand Slam IS included in the ERA. And because its a different league it automatically adds 1 point hahahahahahahahahaha. Who are you? And where do you come up with this.

  159. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:19 am

    Sorry Met fan. Johan isnt the best pitcher in the Majors anymore.

  160. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:20 am

    Primeo,

    NL pitchers pitch to pitchers.

    The rule of thumb is to add .75, so maybe we just add .5 in this year of abberation?

    http://tinyurl.com/3ozy59

  161. Brandon (Jose Tabata stays) (Johan Santana HR count: 13 and a SP) June 29th, 2008 at 1:21 am

    I like that Fox. The Grand Slam IS included in the ERA. And because its a different league it automatically adds 1 point hahahahahahahahahaha. Who are you? And where do you come up with this.

    It counted as 1 ER

  162. pat June 29th, 2008 at 1:21 am

    Star Ledger reporting Posada will be playing 1B tomorrow and Molina catching. Also says Girardi says he will continue to use Molina as a late inning replacement and don’t be surprised if Jorge spends more time at 1B and Giambi at DH at least until Matsui is back.

  163. Guiseppe Franco June 29th, 2008 at 1:21 am

    Primeo,

    The AL is, by far, the tougher league and has been for a decade.

    Whether the top three teams in the NL leads in overall scoring is irrelevant. It’s the fact that the average AL team is far better than the average NL team.

    It’s not even close.

    And NL pitchers have the benefit of an automatic out at the bottom of the order every 9 hitters. Sometimes, the #8 hitter in the NL isn’t much better than the pitcher.

    Take a good look at the interleague record when you start comparing leagues.

  164. The Fallen Phoenix June 29th, 2008 at 1:22 am

    You know, you’re absolutely right DFox — having one of the most dominant minor league seasons in recent history at the age of 20, coming back to pitch six no-hit innings in his second major league start (ever) at that same age (after essentially skipping AAA), and then putting up league-average performance in the AL East while coming off an injury…

    …no, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that Phil Hughes will become an “ace,” or “no. 1″ starter, or however you’d like to define a top 15 pitcher in the league. It’s never fair to expect that of anyone, especially someone who, quite honestly, has not put together anything nearing a complete major league resumé.

    There is certainly a lot to see in Phil Hughes, both in stuff and performance, that suggests he *could* one day be a top 15, or top 30 pitcher. He has great, underrated stuff: a curve with fantastic movement that, in the past, he has shown an ability to throw for strikes; great control of a 92-93 MPH fastball (ask Cole Hamels what it’s like to be an ace with that kind of fastball, LHP or not); a clean, repeatable delivery with one of the most consistent release points in the game; great maturity and on-the-mound presence, as demonstrated by his performance down the stretch in 2007 and in the ALCS (granted, Hughes took a step back in early 2008 in that regard, but no one can expect a 21-year-old to be perfect in that regard). He’s not a two-pitch pitcher, either; Hughes has an above-average slider that he doesn’t throw often anymore, and I’d be willing to bet he throws it more in the future (along with his developing change, which is admittedly still a work-in-progress) as he adjusts to the majors.

    And you know what? There’s a better than even-money chance that Phil Hughes is never going to be one of the top 15 pitchers in the majors. If I had to make a bet, I’d say that no, he never reaches that ceiling, because the game is littered with “can’t miss” prospects who never pan out. But if you gave me a list of all pitchers who were 22 years of age and younger, whether in the majors or not, and you asked me to pick a list of thirty pitchers who I think have the best chance to be one of the top 15 pitchers in the majors, there’s no way I leave Phil off that list, and I’d probably put him towards the upper third of that list.

    It won’t be next year. It won’t be in 2010. And I’m not convinced it will be in 2011, either, if ever. But I do think, and reasonably so, that by the end of Johan Santana’s contract with the Mets, Phil Hughes will have at least cemented a role towards the top of the Yankees rotation.

    And by then, he’ll still only be 26 years of age, with his prime years ahead of him.

  165. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:22 am

    Yeah, but that doesnt make his era 4.01, its still 3.01

  166. Primeo June 29th, 2008 at 1:25 am

    I disagree with adding .75 or .5 or even .025. Why don’t you just compare his performance relative to all the other NL pitchers? Santana’s ERA is 40% better than the average NL pitcher, which is pretty awesome.

  167. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:26 am

    Also, AL pitchers face the DH. Some of the better hitters in baseball (I’ll give you Pujols, tho.)

  168. Primeo June 29th, 2008 at 1:26 am

    Also, we already have AL data on Johan Santana. In case you forgot he pitched there in then AL for the last several years. And he posted 3 years in a row of a below 3.00 ERA in the AL, and that’s when the AL was actually able to hit the ball.

  169. munchabuncha June 29th, 2008 at 1:28 am

    There might be a very easy way to explain how the NL had better offensive numbers, their pitchers aren’t as good. Look at interleague play, the AL could lose the rest of the games they have to play yet and still have more wins against their poorer bretheren in the NL.

  170. Mista Holmes June 29th, 2008 at 1:28 am

    Any Yank fan that thinks that having Santana would be a bad thing, I don’t want to hear you.

  171. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:28 am

    Lets stop the Johan talks. Hes gone. Get over it

  172. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:29 am

    Primeo,

    We’re not saying that Johan’s not good.

    You said that the NL is as good or better than the AL. That’s where we disagree.

    Johan has had sub-3.00 ERA’s in the AL before. So he really should be where Volquez is. Not trashing, just saying.

  173. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 1:31 am

    The Yankees might have gone for Santana if they’d been guaranteed the stats on the back of his baseball card.

  174. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:33 am

    Well I happen to have some stats on this AL vs NL stuff too.

    The NL is hitting .258/.329/.408 in 2008

    The AL is hitting .264/.333/.410 in 2008

    This counts pitchers hitting in the NL. These numbers provide strong evidence that both leagues have hit nearly the same this year. I think it is enough to show that it is close enough where there is no need to add a penalty of .5 or .75 to an NL pitcher’s ERA. That seems very unfair.

  175. David Robertson for Setup June 29th, 2008 at 1:36 am

    Yo Dawg

    Those are half year stats

  176. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:38 am

    YoDawg,

    Those are interleague stats? Then there’s no need to adjust their interleague ERA’s.

    I’m sure that scouts, GM’s, analysts, and writers take into account the difference in the two leagues when analyzing pitchers in the two leagues.

  177. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:39 am

    I don’t get what your point is. The year is half over. How do you expect me to have full season stats for 2008? I’m just saying that up to now, the performance has basically been the same.

  178. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:40 am

    These are not interleague stats.

  179. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:46 am

    Okay. So ignore the numbers. Where is the quality pitching? The quality hitters? Yes, it’s catching up. But not on par with those numbers. It’s like JV stats and Varsity stats. Two different leagues. Competitive, but different.

  180. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:49 am

    “It’s like JV stats and Varsity stats.”

    Considering the frequency with which players switch leagues, I completely disagree with this statement. Do you really believe that superstars in one league would not be superstars in the other? mediocre players in one league would noty be mediocre in the other? Crappy players in one league would not be crappy in the other? I don’t buy that for one second.

  181. GreenBeret7 June 29th, 2008 at 1:50 am

    One thing to keep in mind is that Santana has moved from a hitter’s park to a definate pitcher’s park.

  182. mel June 29th, 2008 at 1:53 am

    Okay. Maybe D-League and NCAA.

    And I see your point about the players switching leagues. However, there are more superstar players in the AL and more crappy players in the NL with a enough mediocre players in both leagues to muddle the picture.

    Seriously, you’re the only person I’ve seen that said the two leagues are equally good.

  183. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 1:56 am

    “However, there are more superstar players in the AL and more crappy players in the NL”

    I also disagree with this.

  184. munchabuncha June 29th, 2008 at 2:04 am

    At the end of the day, Santana isn’t winning lately. Close game or not, his results are just not good enough to help the Mets win.

  185. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 2:11 am

    Wrong again. Santana’s performances have been really impressive lately. In his last 54 innings he has a 2.68 ERA. That is 16 earned runs over the last 8 games.

    The reason the team has lost is that the offense is dreadful and the bullpen has been pathetic in Johan’s starts. Your starter is letting up 2 runs a game and you can’t win. On the list of blame for those losses, Johan ain’t anywhere near the top.

  186. Nick in SF June 29th, 2008 at 2:14 am

    I’m starting to think that Johan Santana is having the greatest season a pitcher has ever had.

  187. YoDawg June 29th, 2008 at 2:34 am

    Well I apologize for turning this into a Santana praise-fest.

    If this jaded dude thinks that the best player on the Mets somehow is the problem on a team with 4 dead spots in the batting lineup (C, RF, LF, P), and 2 other crappy spots in the lineup (2B, 1B) then he needs to take a refresher coure on how to best win baseball games. Santana is the best player on the team. This is almsot like when Yankee fans would bash the heck out of ARod. People expect perfection out of the big franchise player, which is unfair. A 2.68 ERA over the last 54 innings is an elite performance. And you are nuts if you think that isnt helping the team. The Mets have no need to worry about Johan. The Mets needs to worry about finding some major fixes to that offense. Even Sidney Ponson shut them down.

    And the initial reason I chimed in was to bash Pete’s unfair criticism of Johan anyway. Johan is certainly not “a 6 inning pitcher on a good day”, as I proved earlier. Pete should really do some research before he puts out misleading stuff like that. It is crazy how incorrect he is about Johan.

    Anyway, good night all. Maybe Rasner will give us 7 great innings on Sunday so Pete can go on about how he is much more valuable than Johan as well.

    Like I said earlier, Pete should stick to attacking crappier pitchers like Arroyo if he has no intention of doing any research to back his claims.

  188. munchabuncha June 29th, 2008 at 2:51 am

    It really wasn’t a Santana Praise-Fest. You were the only one doing it. Kind of like one hand clapping.

  189. Wanderer June 29th, 2008 at 3:26 am

    This should be a Santana praise fest.

    Yesterday he showed why he should be in the Yanks rotation and Melky should be playing CF for the Twins.

    If we had Santana we’d have a dynamite rotation right now and a great shot at title #27.

    Now we have to trade mid season and overpay for a FA to be.

  190. ErfanK June 29th, 2008 at 3:28 am

    Lets look at this, just by numbers, for those of you ripping Phil because he hasn’t gotten it together yet, lets keep things in perspective. Johan wasn’t all that great in his first two season either…

    Phil Hughes at age 20 and 21

    2007 NYY 13 13 0 0 72.2 64 39 36 8 29 58 5 3 0 0 – 4.46
    2008 NYY 6 6 0 0 22.0 34 23 22 2 13 13 0 4 0 0 – 9.00
    and Johan at age 21 ans 22
    2000 Min 30 5 0 0 86.0 102 64 62 11 54 64 2 3 0 0 – 6.49
    2001 Min 15 4 0 0 43.2 50 25 23 6 16 28 1 0 0 0 – 4.74

    and their minor league numbers…
    Johan
    4 Sesons 343 innings 4.78era 1.38 whip 349 K

    Phil
    4 Seasons 275 innings 2.09ERA 0.86WHIP 311 K

    Give Hughes credit, he was a better minor league pitcher, reached the majors at an earlier age, and has pitched in a big market with great expectations including in the ALCS.. No one ever expected anything out of Johan, lets not forget he was a rule5 draft pick, who pitched in MINN without much hanging over his head. It was a good no trade, given these stats and circumstances.

  191. Rufty June 29th, 2008 at 3:35 am

    Regardless of whether or not the no-trade was a good call, the people who are bashing Santana for his performance this season are way off base.

  192. Don June 29th, 2008 at 4:01 am

    It’s amazing how captivating this whole Hughes-Santana has been. Since last winter we have been debating this issue and it still is going on, seemingly without an end.

  193. Potch June 29th, 2008 at 4:05 am

    “The worst part was when some TV dope asked him what he thought about pitching against “an ace” like Johan Santana. Pettitte was polite. I would have said. “Yeah, I’ve won 210 games. I was terrified.””

    One of the funniest lines EVER!

  194. PittsburghYankeeFan June 29th, 2008 at 5:27 am

    Greetings from PittsburghYankeeFan in Guangzhou, China. Unbelievably I am getting internet access here with my Sprint EVDO card–I am not sure excatly how, but what the hell.

    Sorry to the Yankees about getting rained out in my home city on Friday–but the best part is I now get to go to the game on the 10th!

    I saw the game on Slingbox here (yes, in the middle of the night).

    Maybe the Mets try to trade Santana once Omar gets fired by this season’s end. I would make the Mets eat some $$$$ to take Santana off of their hands.

    The Rasnerberry gets his last chance today prior to a move down if he blows it. My guess is that he blows it, and hopefully Girardi and Eiland have a quick hook. The question is, who do you use as the long man?

  195. Annie Savoy June 29th, 2008 at 7:28 am

    Re: Pettitte, Mussina and Rivera

    Never underestimate the value of years on a team for pitchers. Having played with the same team mates – Jeter, Posada, etc. – who are vigilant on the field and never miss a thing out there is invaluable to them. Talk about a ‘band of brothers’……….

  196. yankee lover June 29th, 2008 at 8:24 am

    Was at the game yesterday -really enjoyed it, especially the pick off of Reyes which was huge. Farnsworth should go to church this morning, he gave up two extremely loud outs and balls that would have been xtra base hits.
    Santana pitched well, 1 bad inning. Petitte battles like always. The Yanks need a starter and fast. Nice to see Cano get big hits

  197. Keith June 29th, 2008 at 8:28 am

    Sometimes I wonder what Gammons would look like if he considered using whitening strips.
    Even George Washington’s wooden teeth looked better.
    What if Steve Phillips dyed his hair jet black ?

  198. S.A.- No pain..no gain! I still believe in this team June 29th, 2008 at 9:00 am

    Santana Santana Santana

    I wonder when some fans will finally let that go…

    Anyway, big start for Rasner today.

  199. CM June 29th, 2008 at 9:17 am

    “The worst part was when some TV dope asked him what he thought about pitching against “an ace” like Johan Santana. Pettitte was polite. I would have said. “Yeah, I’ve won 210 games. I was terrified.””

    An ace does not gice up grand slams to pitchers, throw 113 pitches in six innings, or throw his teammates under the bus when they make errors or don’t score enough. An ace doesn’t stand at his locker talking about how he did enough to help his team. The Yankees had a similar “ace” a few years ago in Randy Johnson.

    I’ll take a guy like Pettitte who’ll put a team on his back and refuse to lose. Or young guys with promise like Hughes, Kennedy, et al.

    Forget about Johan enjoying 6 years with an aging team and no farm system. I hope the Mets fans enjoy 6 years with a pitcher with decreasing velocity who has trouble gong more than 6 innings now.

  200. CM June 29th, 2008 at 9:18 am

    “gice up” = give up

    D’oh!

  201. Jeff June 29th, 2008 at 9:31 am

    Santana=declining and we’ll laugh at how the badly he pitches for the remainder of his contract.

  202. mark June 29th, 2008 at 9:49 am

    A few thoughts about a sweet win while the Red Sox and Rays finally decided to lose on the same night! I got to watch the hit where the Stros took the lead for good. Then I stayed up and watched Jason Bay get his walkoff.

    About Johann Santana. I’d be a total jerk if I tried to say that yesterday showed me that Santana would have been a mistake for the Yankees. Even his record in his last 7 games doesn’t do it. I can never say Santana isn’t a very good pitcher. He is. I was glad we didn’t get him. I still am. I can say though that his attitude is lousy! We had quite a few games where our offense wasn’t doing anything and our pitchers lost without giving up hardly any runs. Even if it bothered our pitchers they didn’t whine to the press about it.

    Oh yeah. I thought we needed Joba to stay in the pen. I can see now how important he is to the rotation. You have to be able to say when you got it wrong.

    Maybe someday the Santana fans will be able to admit that the Yankees made the right decision.

  203. 27 this year June 29th, 2008 at 9:51 am

    The Yanks made the right decision on Santana. I did not want him when I saw what we have to give up.

  204. 27 this year June 29th, 2008 at 9:52 am

    I think the Mets are one of the worst organizations. Aside from Wright and Reyes and Beltran to some degree they are old and have no young farm.

  205. Jack Knight June 29th, 2008 at 10:40 am

    “How excited were you to pitch against an ace like Santana?”

    I’m sure Andy couldn’t sleep in anticipation of pitching against the late great Johan Santana.

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