What to do about Melky Cabrera?
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- July
- 1
At what point – tonight? – do the Yankees admit that Melky Cabrera doesn’t belong in the lineup?
He is at .223/.284/.290 since May 1 with two homers, 20 RBI and 12 runs scored over 213 plate appearances. 12 runs scored in 53 games? That is tough to do.
June (.206/.289/.255) was even worse and for the season he’s hitting .222 with runners in scoring position.
Yet Cabrera has played in 81 games and is a lineup constant, even against left-handers despite his atrocious performance (.198/.289/.255) as a right-handed hitter.
For all the tinkering Joe Girardi does with his lineup, Cabrera is accorded the same respect as A-Rod and Jeter. Three actual good players sat against Oliver Perez the other day. Cabrera played and was 0 for 3.
Cabrera is 0 for his last 15 and has one RBI since June 16.
Yes, he has a fine arm. He also has three assists all season. Playing him on the off chance that he might throw somebody out doesn’t begin to balance out his offensive ineptness.
Joe Torre had the same loyalty to Cabrera that Girardi does. Cabrera, Torre used to invariably say, gives the Yankees energy. In terms of “energy” stats, Cabrera had eight triples last season, none this season. He’s also on pace for fewer doubles, fewer stolen bases and fewer sacrifices.
Now that Brett Gardner is here, there is no compelling reason to continue playing Cabrera every day. Keeping Johnny Damon out of center field is understandable. But the Yankees would be best served with Damon in left and Gardner in center for an extended period of time.
None of us know what Gardner will do. But how much worse can he be at this point?
The second part of this is whether Cabrera has any trade value beyond being a throw-in. He did have market value at some point, but that has faded. This slump goes beyond two months. Cabrera has hit .263 since the start of the 2007 season. That’s not a slump, that’s what he is.
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on Tuesday, July 1st, 2008 at 1:55 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
i think bench him for a week and lets see what gardner could do and then make a dicision. there is no reason to rush now
I agree
Why not give the other kid a shot. Why are we loyal to Melky? He has played well in the field but his offense is not good.
Bring Back Bernie!!!!
( I can’t help myself Pete)
Harsh Pete. There’s nothing wrong with sending him back down for a year and seeing if he progresses… but “that’s what he is” referring to the .260 avg is a bit too much considering he’s just a kid.
At least he doesn’t act like a Melkontent.
Gardner should be given the reigns to CF for the rest of the season, barring injury.
Melky should be designated the 4th OF, and given time to play when Girardi feels rest is needed for Damon.
Melky should remain with the team, though. I wouldnt trade him with his value so low, and he can be a valuable asset off the bench.
Go with Gardner for now. He did have a productive month of April so maybe he can get back to that type of production later this year.
Unfortunately, Garnder is a lefty bat and the glaring need for the Yankees is a right-handed bat.
If Matt Holliday became available in a trade, I think the Yankees would have to consider making a run at him b/c Matsui is a DH and Damon is getting older (Abreu is a Free Agent this upcoming off-season).
Damon in left and Gardner in center would work out cause those guys both can run fast and cover the biggest part of the stadium. Plus I think Gardner can develop more power.
I think we keep waiting for Melky to break out. He shows a little power, good fielding and then fades.
I like the kid, but I hope he sits out for a while. Play him like a 4th outfielder for a bit and maybe we will see some difference in him.
It makes sense to make some kind of change with him. Maybe Brett can replace him, maybe not, but it can’t hurt to try something at this point.
pete- why not make a poll if we fans want melky to stay as our everyday center fielder or gardner(of course you must put one anwser some thing cute about a-ror)
“Yes, he has a fine arm. He also has three assists all season. Playing him on the off chance that he might throw somebody out doesn’t begin to balance out his offensive ineptness.
Joe Torre had the same loyalty to Cabrera that Girardi does. Cabrera, Torre used to invariably say, gives the Yankees energy. In terms of “energy†stats, Cabrera had eight triples last season, none this season. He’s also on pace for fewer doubles, fewer stolen bases and fewer sacrifices.
Now that Brett Gardner is here, there is no compelling reason to continue playing Cabrera every day. Keeping Johnny Damon out of center field is understandable. But the Yankees would be best served with Damon in left and Gardner in center for an extended period of time.
None of us know what Gardner will do. But how much worse can he be at this point?”
Okay, first of all when playing defense their is a lot more that goes into it than just arm strength. There is also Range Factor and routes to ball etc.
Cabrera doesn’t just have a good arm he is a VERY good defensive CF.
Third best defensive CF in the AL as of June 21st.
There is a reason why he only has 3 OF assists. Why would players continue to get thrown out by being overly agressive on his arm?
Secondly, it’s not about how much worse Gardner could be, it’s about how much better he would figure to be.
I personally think that if he is better it will only be marginal and he could be a worse defensive CF than Melky.
Again, if Melky Cabrera is the reason why the Yankees are struggling to score runs they should give up on the season not tomorrow, not at the trading deadline but right now.
To me this is such a non-issue. Seriously we’re talking about Melky Cabrera. Melky frickin Cabrera.
Let BG spin for a few weeks and lets see what happens. The kid can fly! I like the Melk man but my patience with him is starting to wear thin.
http://thefinalseason.blogspot.com/
Melky is one of nine players in the lineup so anybody is fair game. We all know Austin Jackson is going to be the future CF so I don’t have a problem w/ Garnder keeping the seat warm until then.
Pete you are dead on. At this point he is not a serviceable major league hitter and yet he is being given the respect of playing in the lineup everyday. Granted, he is an exceptional defender, but if you can’t even hit to a reasonable level you reach a point where it is very difficult to justify giving him extended playing time/ABs.
Melky Cabrera always was going to be a stopgap player until the younger players in the farm system arrived and surpassed him. He played admirably and I give him credit for holding the fort down in center. But Gardener is already here and in my estimation can provide, and then some, what Cabrera is currently doing, at least I hope he can. For sure I know Austin Jackson when he is ready will be the guy to supplant him: he is just on another level than Melky.
It was a good run Melky…but I believe it is in the Yankees best interests to move on.
Holliday is having a great year, but even with his normal stats I like his intensity of playing. I think he would be a great pickup for the Yankees.
Melky might have a place. With all the talk about how Kennedy had a lock on being in the rotation going to his head, I have to wonder if something like that is going on with Melky.
I know its been said he works hard, but somehow that just isn’t enough. Let him fill in relief roles, defensive replacement, see if that can get him going better.
Au revoir Melk Man, Au revoir
I can’t help wondering whether his close friendship with Cano keeps him playing. It shouldn’t; the Yanks would be best served optioning Melky to SWB and bringing back Christian to act as a pinch runner and defensive replacement for Damon in the late innings. As Pete said, Gardner could not possibly be any worse, and has the potential to be so much better.
At this point in the season, we’ve got to start making some changes. You certainly can’t pin all of the troubles with this offense on Melky, but he is not carrying his weight.
It doesn’t sound to me like Gardner is the long term center fielder, but could it really get any worse at this point with Melky on the bench and Gardner in center? Give the kid a shot(he’s earned it), and do some remedial work with Melky. The kid looks like he needs to rebuild his swing.
This is not going to solve our offensive woes though. The stars have to get their act together and start doing little things to move guys around the bases.
I’d like to see Brett Gardner out there to see what he can bring. I’m pretty sick of Melky’s wasted AB’s and I’m ready to make a move. Too bad we didnt trade him when he had some value but maybe riding some pine will wake him up some.
Melky’s defense does not make up for his shortcomings with a bat. If Gardner can get on base and help the Yankees play better small ball and manufacture runs, then why not give him a shot? This concept of needing 9 all-stars who all hit for power/RBI/etc gets old.
Well said Peter…………. Melk say hello to the bench
But it is weird that he did has some power surge in April,that’s a mystery that it’s gone since May.But I do find an interesting thing : he hit some fly balls this year.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4022&position=OF
Is it possible he has some mechanics problem or maybe some mental thing about feeling that this is the year he needs to prove himself?
Another thing I must add to this, Melky is 23 years old. We do not know at this point what he is or what he will be.
To definitively say what a 23 year old is is beyond silly Pete.
You’ve been watching baseball for how many years?
If players are what they are at 23 years of age then half of the players in the majors today wouldn’t be there based on what they looked like at 23.
I don’t think Melky had any trade value ever.. I mean more then he does now, but even before the season I don’t think anyone viewed him anywhere near as highly as the Yankees do
I would disagree that Torre had the same loyalty to Cabrera. Part of his falling out with Brian Cashman was continuing to play Bernie Williams in center and keeping Melky on the bench. That is the main reason BC didn’t resign Bernie last year.
Oh Melky..
raymagnetic – great posts!
“Gardner should be given the reigns to CF for the rest of the season, barring injury.”
I’m not giving a 16 year the keys to a car to drive cross country on his first day behind the wheel so I’m not giving Gardner the reigns in CF either.
They need to give him a chance to see if he can do it but in the same way Melky shouldn’t just be handed the job, neither should Gardner. If you earn it, you keep it. If you don’t, it’s someone elses for the taking.
people this is just petes opinion this is not set and done that melky is going to the bench
Raymagnetic, Melky isn’t the whole answer, but when a player is batting as poorly as he is right now he has become an easy out. Similar with Cano, but at least we’ve seen Cano do better. Melky only spuratic bursts then back to wiffs.
Gardner has speed like we haven’t seen on the Yankees for a while. He may not be the answer, but this team needs some kind of spark. Putting Gardner in his spot may actually help Melky.
I don’t think its about giving up on him as much as it is making a change in a position that isn’t producing in both parts of the innings.
With Cano and Melky and Molina not being very productive at batting, that is a larger problem. Having one or two players who produce less in their ABs is able to be covered somewhat. Three is tougher to cover.
To, “JoeT 28 in 09!! MO FOR CY YOUNG!! FIRE CASHMAN!!”:
Melky’s trade value has dropped precipitously in my estimation but to be honest I never thought it was that high to begin with. Other teams knew that his hitting was not exactly of a high quality. He has good speed, and is an exception outfielder. He is a high grade utility player, and a marginal starter.
To, “raymagnetic ®™”:
I agree. He has time to better himself in the minor leagues. Thing is I just don’t envision the Yankees being the franchise where he can do that, better himself, and be in the starting lineup on a consistent basis. The Yankees have players who are just more skilled than him coming through the ranks, to be quite frank.
http://www.madein1903.com/forum
EDIT
16 year old
I’m a big Melky fan but yeah. No offense this year and plus with the sliding into first base, sit him! I would also fine him every time he slid into first base.
If he hits the Mendoza line… Oh boy…
I’m not making the jump to say Melky doesn’t belong. Lord knows he’s having a tough season offensively, but he’s making great plays in the outfield. I concur with Raymagnetic – of course the assists are down, who would still challenge the arm?
However, I would not oppose a little rest for the Melkman.
And of course the Yankees have me on speed dial to take my temperature on how they should run their team!
(Laughing at myself, as if my opposition or support has any import!)
I’d like to see some more stolen bases by Gardner. That guys is just so fast. So let’s play him in CF.
Fair comment Pete.
I think in Torre’s case, that was a different Melky. One that hustled and did give energy to a banged up Damon, Matsui and Giambi. Girardi has no such excuse.
Melky needs to sit for a while and stay on the bench. He’s a fine 4th outfielder, if he’s hungry for success he’ll shine off the bench.
melky sucks. that is all.
Totally agree Pat. Earn your role in the lineup. Especially the younger players.
Its possible Melky will develop into a better all around player, but the problem is he hasn’t shown any progress this year. Other than his first month, what has he done offensively?
While he’s a kid, he could be getting tired too. Who knows? I think its time, though, to try something different because playing Melky every day hasn’t done it.
Does anyone know how good of an arm Gardner has? Just wondering…
Wow. I knew it was bad, but not this bad. Everyone’s struggled at one point or another, but have reverted to form. A nice little mental health break or some IPK treatment might do the job for Melky
Another issue that no one seems to be bringing up is how much this team will miss Hideki Matsui and his production.
guess I’m on to something. No need for your feedback. But you obviously need my insight. Ha ha!)
Buck Martinez is on the FAN. He talked about Leyland and Guillen and how their MOTIVATION is what made the difference in their teams producing. Also how neither of them let their teams rest on their laurels.
Yes, mark, you had it right. Yankees offense could use being called out. Doubtful it will happen though.
Oh yeah. Martinez sees the Rays making the playoffs with Yankees odd man out.
As you were…
oh come on melky for sure still has value. he drives cano to the game everyday lets just start paying him as a chauffeur. anyway with gardner this year showing good signs and jackson on his way up, melky is losing his spot. maybe they want to see what happens with abreu in the offseason before letting melky go. its the allstar break and the rays are still in first. lets get serious. bench melk or send him to swb, get rid of hawkins, and continue the tryouts for the fifth starter role.
People seem to forget that Melky is younger than Gardner. In the long run, I expect Melky to be a better all around player than Gardner.
Of course, what to do with Melky should be predicated on both his long term development and the short term needs of the team. I think the worst thing they could do is bench Melky. He needs to play every day (or almost every day) to develop. If Matsui comes back and Melky hasn’t started hitting, they should consider sending him back to AAA. Let him put some time in and focus on getting back to the player he was in April.
I think Melky is definitely a good center fielder, but I don’t think he is an exceptional one. He does have a good arm, however this year particularly I have seen him make a lot of throws that were not on target. He takes a lot of bad first jumps on the ball, and they often go over his head. I think as Yankees fans we have grown accustomed to slow-moving veterans, and we were dazzled by Melky’s skills. The truth is, I don’t think Gardner would do much worse, defensively. Melky’s D is not strong enough to warrant his starting.
Anybody notice how Melky called off Garnder on a short pop up last night and barely acknowledge him?
If Gardner can maintain his .400 OBP, with his additional speed, the other aspects of their game are basically a wash and Gardner would seem to be the more productive of the 2.
I’m all for an extended try out.
I posted this last night, but it seems more relavent to this thread…
What happened to Melky?
Other than his defense, Melky’s most impressive attribute when he came up was his plate discipline. I recall being so impressed that a kid his age was so selective and walked so much. I figured that made for an excellent foundation as a major league hitter, and that more power would come as he matured. Instead, he has completely lost his plate discipline! Lately he is worse than Cano when it comes to being selective with pitches, and he doesn’t have Cano’s raw talent to fall back on. He seems determined to just give his at bats away.
Melky’s been one of my favorite players the last few seasons, but given the way he’s regressed, it’s preobably time to try Gardner out in CF. Pete’s right, how much worse could he be?
I don’t know about the entire season but Brett Gardner should be in the lineup everyday from now until the ASB.
After that, evaluate how he has done and go from there.
Its not just Melky.
His running buddy Cano, armed with a new 30 million dollar contract, has been just as bad. Worse, if you consider the fact the Yankees are relying more on Cano’s contributions than Cabrera’s. You have be really bad in today’s baseball to achieve a .280 OBP, which Robbie has done so far this year.
Unfortunately for the Yankees, they don’t have an in house replacement for Cano. They do, at least in theory, for Melky.
Its now time to use it.
“To definitively say what a 23 year old is is beyond silly Pete.”
but its really not Pete saying it. I havent read one baseball writer, whether from Baseball America or ESPN guys lik Keith Law or Rob Neyer, etc, who thinks Melky is more than a 4th OF over his career.
now to be fair, the same things have been said about Brett Gardner, too.
but right now, the yankees major issues lie in the back of their rotation, and with their inconsistent offensive production, to which Melky does play a role. If you think Gardner can be a solution, you give him the opportunity, and lets see if he can help kick start this thing a little bit.
“They need to give him a chance to see if he can do it but in the same way Melky shouldn’t just be handed the job, neither should Gardner. If you earn it, you keep it. If you don’t, it’s someone elses for the taking.”
but if you are going to properly give Gardner a fair shake, you cant send him out to play for a couple games, and if he doesnt get a couple hits, he’s back in Scranton. This calls for a fundamental change, so you’re talking an extended period of time.
it does neither one of these guys any good to play for a week or two, then swap them out, and then another couple weeks, and swap.
Darkmoonfire,
You don’t think Melky is hustling now? I think you are correct in saying it is a different Melky when Torre was managing. He hit to a decent level, at least acceptable. Not so much now, we’re talking about a void in the lineup when he plays, sadly. I don’t think it’s about fire I think it’s about the league catching up to him and him not being able to make the adjustments to that. The good major leaguer sees that other teams have adjusted to him and makes the adjustment accordingly. Perhaps he simply cannot do that because he is merely not that skilled.
Finally, as a 4th outfielder he is optimal. Like you said to give the others a little spell from playing the OF and perhaps benefiting from lesser ABs as he will not be exposed so much.
Pete, did Melky steal your lunch? your girlfriend?
I recall dozens of people on here (including you I think, but I could be wrong) saying he couldn’t hit in the major leagues, then he did… So now, any slump more than two months means it’s not a slump, he just can’t hit?
He has hit in the majors before and his defense, as others have said, is far better than you’re giving him credit for. I’m not saying he deserves to play everyday despite the slump. But I am saying he deserves to play everyday until we have a better option.
People are proposing Gardner is a better option despite your own contradiction:
“But the Yankees would be best served with Damon in left and Gardner in center for an extended period of time.
None of us know what Gardner will do. But how much worse can he be at this point?”
How can anyone said we’d be better with Gardner despite not knowing what Gardner can do? You can say, “he can’t be much worse, give him a shot.” But you can’t say we’d be better off.
Melky was a better hitter in AAA than Gardner, not sure why people are assuming Gardner will be a better MLB hitter than Melky.
Melky Cabrera: .280 in ‘06 .273 in ‘07. 26 and 24 doubles, respectiavely in those years. Also, had 12 SB in ‘06 and 13 in ‘07. Yes, he has a great arm and good range, although i havn’t seen any sizemore-esque plays in centerfield as of late. What he brings in centerfield he lacks in speed and presence at the plate. to me, the question is, can BG make up at the plate what we will lose in the field. IMO YES. If you don’t agree, thats fine, but you have to at least agree that the kid deserves a shot, not because he is a prospect, but because our centerfielder is playing terribly. bottom line: melky’s centerfield play hasn’t made a difference between winning and losing in the last 2 weeks, but his at bats have cost us runs. Gardner will cause havoc on basepaths, much like jose reyes does with the mets. Watch a Mets game and tell me that kind of speed isn’t one of the most important aspects of that team. It’s seems like everytime reyes is on base, he scores. That’s an advantage that far outweighs a somewhat weaker arm.
Sit him.
You really have nothing to lose. And I don’t know about anyone else, but Gardner really makes me happy. It’s like watching a game when Joba’s on the mound, I just gotta make sure I’m there to watch it!
“If Gardner can maintain his .400 OBP, with his additional speed, the other aspects of their game are basically a wash and Gardner would seem to be the more productive of the 2.”
If Gardner can maintain a .400 OBP, that would be WAAAAAAAAY more than a wash. With his speed, that would be a mindbogglingly wonderful upgrade of superness.
Melky’s younger than Gardner fyi, and there’s no guarantee that Gardner would be any better. I don’t mind seeing Brett get a shot to show what he could do as the Yankee centerfielder, but Melky still has a lot of talent and could improve once the light goes on. I wouldn’t give up on him yet.
“If Gardner can maintain his .400 OBP,”
It also won’t happen.
Girardi called them out after the Pittsburgh debacle last Tuesday.
Its not football. All the rah rah stuff doesn’t always work.
You yell at them. What happens after that? You think they will magically hit and play better baseball?
At some point, they just have to play better. If they don’t, its rebuilding time.
Let’s not go too crazy on the Tigers. They got fat on interleague play. Let’s see how they do now that they have to play within the AL again.
The winner in the AL Central will probably have 85-87 wins this year. Its not that great a division.
The point on Melky is fair..let’s see if having Gardner here lights a fire under him. At the very least, he should not hit against LHP’s. But his defense is very good and should not be ignored. Still a valuable asset, has to be used judiciously.
Jeter on the other hand is the much more difficult problem. Worse defensively than Melky, now a full season into a prolonged and alarming offensive decline masked by a decent BA, yet the third highest paid player in the game and the Teflon rep (earned from past efforts, so not arguing this much). No replacement in sight, nor any PR-friendly way to handle his future here. The notion of moving Jeter to another position is now moot, given his age and offensive trajectory. This will soon enough be a major issue for the team to confront and has been a key part of their offensive underperformance this year.
Billy Chapel,
I’d like to see Gardener get an audition for the job, but I am opposed to just handing it to him. If he doesn’t perform, he has to fight for the spot with Melky for now.
I think at the very least Melky needs a couple days off. Up until now Joe hasn’t had another option for center, but with Gardner on the roster he certainly does. Melky has not progressed as a hitter, in fact he seems to have regressed. In 06 Melky had 56 BB in 130 games. Last year he summed 43 in 150 games. And so far this year he is on pace for 56 again, but over the course of 162 games. Furthermore, his hitting is not as productive; in 06 26 doubles, last year 24, this season on pace for 18. The average also seems to be trending downward. As far as the defense in concerned, yes he is great. However, I have seen many throws of his be way off line, while last year he would have nailed the guy. Sure Melky is only 23, but normally players get better as they move through their 20s, Melky doesn’t seem to be doing this.
“Okay, first of all when playing defense their is a lot more that goes into it than just arm strength. There is also Range Factor and routes to ball etc. ”
Gardner has 10x the range of melky. The only single argument to suggest that we will miss anything with melky on the bench is his arm…not worth it.
Melky’s from the Dominican Republic
melky should be released. no one wants him.
“now a full season into a prolonged and alarming offensive decline”
He had an awful april and a mediocre may. His june numbers are good, though. They don’t make up for his poor early numbers, but if he hits like he did in June for the rest of the season, Jeter won’t be a part of the problem.
Everyone should check out MLB trade rumors for a brian cashman GM history. it should generate quite the discussion.
Did the RAB guys hack this site and are pretending they’re Pete today?
That’s the only logical reason behind this topic.
Last I saw, Brett Gardner looked a lot like an older, whiter Melky Cabrera last night.
Regarding calling out the Yankee offense. I think that is appropriate when a team isn’t showing signs of hustle and is playing stupid baseball in the field. I don’t think that is the case with the Yankees. They all hustle down the line, and Melky, Jeter, Cano and Molina have not carried their offensive woes out into the field. That tells me their collective head is still in the game.
Moose: i agree jeter is not himself by any means. It has become clear that he could be a problem in the future. Honestly he almost seems a bit out of shape. he doesnt go after some of the balls he used to. But i still think their is plenty of chance for a rebound. Don’t count him out, i bet he will finish off the year well, and through next year as well
The real problem is that Melky is too young to grow a proper mustache.
Jorge Steinbrenner,
That was one game.
Let’s cut the BS on the age difference between Gardner and Melky. Gardner is two weeks older than Jacoby Ellsbury and he’s not exactly an old man.
Melky supporters often play that tired age game, but either downplay or fail to recognize that Melky greatly benefited from luck and opportunity when Matsui and Sheffield went down for most of the 2006 season. Melky got the opportunity to play every day in the majors because the team was desperate for a capable body after 2/3 of their outfield went down with serious injuries.
By contrast, Gardner has been stuck in the minors for the last year because of the logjam in the Yankee outfield since the beginning of 2007.
Like it or not, Melky supporters, these are the undeniable facts, so let’s be honest about it.
Melky became the everyday CF primarily because of his defense and youthful energy he brought to the team. His offensive production was secondary.
Melky is essentially worthless when he’s not hitting and is a switch-hitter in name only considering that he’s hitting an NL pitcher-esque numbers against LHPs.
It’s time to make a change. Melky has already reached his ceiling and his cons are now outweighing his pros.
Pete, when will you do a critical and balanced examination of Jeter’s decline and its implications? What grade would you give Jeter for his first half? As media members, it’s so much easier to scapegoat Betemit, Cabrera, etc. than the captain, but you need to be more objective than this. WIth an OPS+ of 96 this year (and +91 in 2nd half last year), the numbers don’t lie. I love what Jeter means to this franchise, but perhaps some real scrutiny will light a fire underneath him.
Or you can just ignore it and write snide comments regarding intelligent posters when Jeter has another 3 hit game (all singles). Your ‘journalistic’ choice…
sj44 I remember Steinbrenner calling the team out and the team producing. I wish Hal would start doing the same thing. I can’t explain it but I saw it work. I don’t think Girardi is made that way. It worked for Chicago and Detroit. I’d really like to see someone call them out. It’s worth a try no? Sometimes I think it’s just human nature. Your boss cracks the whip and means it you jump.
maybe melky has more potential, but then he should be in scranton
RayMagnetic is right.. again Melky is 24 he is younger then Gardner……….
try Gardenr that is fine but to think the problems stem fro mthe 9th hitter is a JOKE….
Also to give up on a 24 yr old is MORONIC.
Alsi if he hit 260 a productive 260 that would be more then fine…………
And if Peter wants to be fair list the avg. for all the players with RISP, Melky is not even close to the worst….
Peter giving up on Melky is standard impatient stupidity, I thought you were a baseball prospectus guy????????
My mistake Dan.
I meant to say sit him until we have a good enough view of Gardner to make the best decision.
At 23 years old players are obviously not what they are going to be. But he has not shown ANY improvement at all what so ever in the last 2 years. He started off April doing good and then it went down hill from there. I really think Girardi needs to give him some time off. Give him time to rest and lets see what Gardner can do. If Gardner can hit even .270 he will be much more important to this team then Meky is because of his speed. That is something that this team needs!!! If Melky doesnt show any improvement they are going to need to get him out of there. He can’t be an everyday player hitting .220 and he looks like the pitcher batting.
“If Gardner can maintain his .400 OBP,â€
It also won’t happen.”
Besides, isn’t his OBP .000.
You have to get to .400 IN THE BIGS before you can SUStain it.
“To me this is such a non-issue. Seriously we’re talking about Melky Cabrera. Melky frickin Cabrera.”
Nobody said that Melky was the only problem on this team, but how can you be so irate that his inability to perform has come under question? Pete talks just as much about how Farnsworth/Hawkins suck as well as how Betemit strikes out too much, etc., etc.
The one underlying point that needs to be made is this: If Gardner can play better than Melky, then he should be given a shot. What’s the worst that can happen? At worst, he’ll do as badly offensively as Melky has done, and the Yankees won’t see a change (it would be as if Melky’s “productivity” had never left). However, if he were to be better than Melky in any capacity (most likely in OBP and an increase in steals), then the Yankees will be improved. Isn’t that what we all want?
I agree the Yankees should go with Gardner for now, but this comment:
“Cabrera has hit .263 since the start of the 2007 season. That’s not a slump, that’s what he is.”….is a little Steve Phillipsesque to me. First of all, clearly Melky isn’t really the .290 or above hitter we saw during his hot streak last July, but how can we say he’s not in a slump either? Look at the guy at the plate, the crap he swings at…he is getting himself out on a regular basis, but he HAS shown the ability to be fairly patient for a player of his age and caliber before. We’ve seen him do it so it is unfair IMO to say what he’s doing right now (constant 2-pitch outs) “is what he is.”
That said, he certainly isn’t helping the team right now. I wholeheartedly agree time for Gardner to get an everyday chance to show us what he’s got. Just like Melky got his in 2006 when it was him or Terrence Long or Ghost of Bernie. Right now it’s Gardner or Ghost of Melky (and I say that b/c of what he HAS shown in the past)…I’ll take Brett all day.
“He [Jeter] had an awful april and a mediocre may. His june numbers are good, though. They don’t make up for his poor early numbers, but if he hits like he did in June for the rest of the season, Jeter won’t be a part of the problem.”
June = small sample size; think larger window — since the ASB last year, he has an OPS+ in the low 90’s. Complete loss of power counting stats, decline in OBP, it’s alarming. Is it medical? If it’s not, start thinking Plan B now two years before the fact. We have no SS prospects of note at present. We’re even better stocked at catcher..
Look at my name, it says it all. great range to his right and terrible range to his left. With a 1B free agent market with only Tex (going to cost 200+ million) and Adam Dunn, the best move for this team is to move him to 1B and find an infielder. There are plenty of infielders better suited than there are 1B’s. Jeter is getting older and slower and doesn’t look like he can handle SS. You look at guys like Jack Wilson and yearn for a guy that can make those kind of plays up the middle. This move is clearly never going to happen given Jeters God-like status with this team, but it would most definitely help.
Melky is not from Puerto Rico.He is from Dominica Republic.And what he has done badly is nothing about his nationality.
farnsworthy, you should apologize for it!
And SJ and others, I am well aware of Angelini as a SS future. But he is far too early in the development cycle to have any real projectability.
yes, i apologize………….NOT!
Kermit,
LOL. Anyone who doesn’t grow a ’stache by the end of the ASB needs to get DFA’d.
I completly agree with your idea Pete. I have been a big fan of Melky since he started making waves in the Yankees Minors. He has always seemed like he could be the next Bernie Williams, but with an arm. Who knows maybe he still will be. But right now at this point in the season I think the Yankees need to see what they have with Bret Gardner. He seems like he is the proto-typical lead off man leading the International League in OBP, SB’s, Runs, and 3B. He can really fly when running down the line. Maybe he will be the energy that Mr. Torre always talked about. Plus this gives the team a chance to see where Melky fits in. They have to know what Gardner is and it wont be long till A-Jax is knocking on the door looking to play CF in the new Stadium. Maybe Melky is going to be great but right now he is a 260 hitter who has a great arm but doesnt get great jumps in the OF. Lets see what Gardner can do.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
Jeter Should go to 1B (JoeyA) – I agree, it won’t happen for another year or two, but Jeter should be moved to 1B or LF within a year or so.
Moose,
Jeter has played hard his whole career and worked very hard in the offseason to improve his defense. Do you really think a lack of criticism is the problem? His decline this year seems either related to getting drilled in the hand or to a natural decline in skills related to age and mileage. Lots of post-season games on that body.
Or maybe it’s the lack of candy and greenies in the clubhouse.
Moose,
While I do think other players are to, “blame” for the team not performing up to expectations, I am somewhat confused as to why it absolves Melky Cabrera’s ability to perform at a major league level to be questioned.
The difference is, Derek Jeter has proved over thousands of at bats that he is a dependable hitter. Cabrera’s relatively small sample size in the majors, and struggles this season has cast a shadow of doubt as to whether he can perform to what should be expected of a major league starter.
The entire team needs to pick it up, no doubt. But I think Melky Cabrera and his ability is allowed to be questioned. The whole team can be: be my guest.
the rest of the team is slumping, and they have been called out. However they are usually better, and people are confident they will turn it around. Melky is not slumping, melky is being melky. He is a target of criticism because he is yet to earn his spot. The media and everyone else is targetting him because he is the worst player in a our lineup. We need molina for his unbeleivable fielding. Melky’s can be replaced. Cano has been miserable, but he has shown signs of being a truly unbelievable player. Melky deserves the heat he is recieving
“the best move for this team is to move him to 1B and find an infielder”
This would be an awful move unless they were bringing Hanley Ramirez to play SS. Why weaken two positions this way? We are stuck with Jeter at SS for the next two seasons at least..someone has to help him adjust or identify the cause of the decline. That’s the manager and GM’s job, to help him recognize it and try and remedy it. Perhaps they are trying but since the press doesn’t cover the issue, who the hell knows?
And no, the no. 9 hitter isn’t what’s causing our problems. But when a team is hitting (or should I say not hitting) like the Yankees are now, gotta be proactive and make all the changes you can…and CF is a change that can be made.
Also, regarding defense…I know the sabermetric stats show that Melky is the best defensive CF in the AL but the phrase “watch the games statheads” probably holds true here. As good as the stats say he is, we’ve all seen him make some bonehead plays out there. Particularly involving the routes he takes to go after fly balls. From what I’ve read about him, seems like Brett would be a lot better at that particular aspect of CF defense. So that leaves throwing arm as the huge advantage Melky has on Brett…but is Melky’s arm really that much of a weapon anymore? Everyone knows not to run on him now.
It is unfair to criticize Derek Jeter this season. His numbers are down due to getting hit by Daniel Cabrera. Following that pitch he went 4-40. He was clearly hurt but he toughed it out and played. He is more valuable, even hurt, then his replacements. When the game is on the line he is still one of the guy the Yankees want up. He will be around 300 by the end of the year, just watch.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
yea what dan said
“We have no SS prospects of note at present. ”
Carmen Angelini
Imagine a 2008 where Cano was hitting like he was last year, and Melky was just .25/.30 points higher. In my mind, we’d be tied with Boston right now, not 6.5 games behind.
no he will exceed .300 no doubt about it
“Gardner has 10x the range of melky. The only single argument to suggest that we will miss anything with melky on the bench is his arm…not worth it.”
I assure you that he doesn’t have 10x the range as Melky. He may be faster but does he run better routes than Melky?
It’s not just speed that you have to put into the equation when evaluating a player’s defense.
Dan,
of course I realize that was one game, but the “Brett Gardner can walk on water” crowd were giving predictions all day yesterday as to how glorious day one was going to be. if it looked ridiculous to read my post, it was just as ridiculous to read what was on here half of yesterday.
this really is one of the silliest points a portion of the fanbase keeps on sticking to. Melky Cabrera can’t walk on water either but, not only is he not the sole problem with this franchise, Brett Gardner’s isn’t a lock to make it any better.
the problem isn’t Melky. it’s the bottom of the lineup being composed of too many rally-killing free swingers. there’s too much Melky Cabrera does right for me to ever single him out as the problem with this tam.
“Jeter Should go to 1B ”
You are wrong. Jeter’s range this season is above average compared to the rest of the shortstops in the league.
Fredo,
It’s pretty obvious I’m talking about his minor league career of being at or around .400. OBP translate a lot better from AAA to MLB than most other stats. If a guy has a good eye, he can take a walk anywhere once acclimated. No guarantees, but my gut tells me he can beat out Melky’s .309, and put himself in scoring position more than Melky.
I’m glad Pete runs the blog and not the team.
Dan, I concur with the criticism and disappointment in Melky. As a fan with high hopes for him, I feel it too. It may well be that his trajectory is much lower than we hoped. At least with Gardner, we may have an alternative to explore and perhaps Austin Jackson to look forward to.
My point with Jeter is aimed more at Pete and the media. While Jeter’s track record is HOF worthy, there are serious red flags in his performance over an extended period of time. It may be an overreaction but it’s never even written about outside the SABR sites! I had this issue with Mattingly and Righetti after their primes – they were allowed to coast on reputation because of their stature. But it hurts the team b/c there is paralyis – with Melky, no such restriction.
Does this make more sense?
“Honestly he almost seems a bit out of shape. he doesnt go after some of the balls he used to”
You are so wrong about this that you’re almost right. This year he’s getting to more balls than he has the previous 3/4 years and he came into camp in MUCH better shape.
He worked on his footwork and first step and range all winter after hearing how bad his defense had become.
The point is no one runs on Melky that is a good thing.. Throwing out runners is another wasted stat, no one runs on him therefore he saves bases and runs.
Only idiots give up on 24 yr old players who have been in the majors for almost 3 yrs already…. Yes try Gardner but also try other things… Get Jeter and others to play better…
The yanks are 11th in runs scored…This team is 11th in runs scored…………………………..
When you have an extended slump, you don’t have an impressive resume, and there are other options, you’re gonna see pine.
MLB 101
“We have no SS prospects of note at present. â€
“Carmen Angelini”
Angelini is too early in his development to be projectible at this time. Very young SS prospects are among the hardest to project, in most cases, they flame out or are moved to another position. The likelihood of Angelini being ready in 2 years is as good as the Yankees acquiring Hanley.
“We have no SS prospects of note at present. â€
Carmen Angelini
*******
who is hitting .250 at Low-A Charleston, and has made about 300 errors. not that he isnt a prospect, because he is, but lets get real… you wont see him for a couple years, minimum.
Its funny, I was saying weeks ago that Gardner should be given a shot and most people on here disagreed with me. Anyways..
Its silly that people are saying “Melky isn’t the reason why this team is losing!” Well he sure as heck isn’t doing much to improve the situation. Yeah his defense is great and he saves runs that way but his offense is just terrible. The Yankees have to look at every option and every possible upgrade. Who knows if Gardner will be better than Melky but theres no harm in trying him out for a week or two.
“Melky supporters often play that tired age game, but either downplay or fail to recognize that Melky greatly benefited from luck and opportunity when Matsui and Sheffield went down for most of the 2006 season. Melky got the opportunity to play every day in the majors because the team was desperate for a capable body after 2/3 of their outfield went down with serious injuries.”
You’ve posted this same nonsense several times and it gets sillier every time I read it.
Who cares what circumstances led to Melky being called up? Tons of players get called up due to injury. It’s not the being called up, it’s the sticking in the majors that counts.
personally, i would not bench Melky or change his title to 4th outfielder. i’d simply platoon the 2 until Matsui is ready to come back. At that point, you decide what to do from there.
only a fool will play a .240 hitter everyday.
Patrick
A. We are halfway thru this season
B. in prior, full season, Jeter has been one of the worst ranging SS’s in the league, even with his high flying theatrics to his right side, a play barely if ever executed anymore.
C. You can’t possibly argue Jeter is, if not the worst, one of the worst left ranging SS’s in the league.
Bottom line: he looks slower and is only 34. I know we all had hopes of him playing that position until whenever he decided to leave, but we need to be more realistic.
Jorge Steinbrenner,
Exactly. The grass is always greener on the other side, and of course this is the case with Brett Gardener. He is the new prospect in town, and obviously will be markedly better than Cabrera. (sarcasm) Time will tell if he can take control of the CF spot over Cabrera, but there should be an honest competition for the job between the two.
However I do see Melky being part (and I highlight, “part”) of the problem right now. Granted he is far from the end all be all issue holding the Yankees back. No one is that. The entire collective underachievement of selected players: that is why the Yankees are where they are.
http://www.madein1903.com/forum
How can you say Jeter hurts the team?? If you only went off SABR stats maybe but stats can be scewed any which way. Watch the team on a daily basis and I can tell you that the Yankees are infenetly better with Jeter on the field than if you put the “avg ss” that SABR metrics compare people to. Jeter is a player you cant compare with stats you need to see what he does. Would he ever act like Jose Reyes or Manny Ramirez? I think not. He shows the team how to lead and he passes on the respect of the game that other generations showed. Oh and by the way his stats will be there as he approaches 4,000 hits something only Rose and CObb have done.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
“He worked on his footwork and first step and range all winter after hearing how bad his defense had become.”
I agree with this: Jeter’s defense has improved though most ratings still have him as average to slightly below. That’s not the area of concern, it’s his bat. And that bat will not travel to another position well unless it’s 2B.
hey ray, scouting reports on melky all say he is a great field, which covers for his average range. His range is his known obvious flaw. So you are so wrong.
Also jeter is not fielding well so what’s your argument
i’m sorry but what Melky is is a YOUNG player whose defense is way more advanced than his bat. He’ll come around in a couple seasons.
Don’t forget Bernie struggled in the beginning of his career offensively for his first couple seasons and i think he was a .260 hitter in that time if i am not mistaken.
In fact the first 3 seasons in his career he hit no higher than .280 and that was in just 62 games.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willibe02.shtml
I’m not against Gardner taken over for CF, Pete but i will not right off Melky Cabrera offensively when he is just 23 years old. In fact it is probably a good idea to maybe try and platoon the 2 CF’s somehow. Tinker the line up and get them both some at bats.
just my opinion
nyyanks23-
How about sending him to the minors to get his swing back?
raymagnetic, it is time to get off the melky train
“At worst, he’ll do as badly offensively as Melky has done, and the Yankees won’t see a change (it would be as if Melky’s “productivity†had never left). However, if he were to be better than Melky in any capacity (most likely in OBP and an increase in steals), then the Yankees will be improved. Isn’t that what we all want?”
No, at worst he will be worst than Melky. He could put up Melky’s numbers and be worse defensively. At worst he could be Corey Patterson, another speedy guy who strikes out a lot.
I know what Angelini is doing at low A. He’s young but he IS a prospect of note. I’m not saying he’s Jeter’s replacement but don’t just forget about the guy because you are trying to make a point. He recieved an over-slot bonus for a reason.
We won’t see him for a couple years minimum? We don’t need him or anyone else at SS for a couple years minimum. Jeter’s defense has improved this year, I see no reason to move him.
“Its silly that people are saying “Melky isn’t the reason why this team is losing!†Well he sure as heck isn’t doing much to improve the situation.”
that series of sentences does not even pass the most basic of logic tests. you could say that for every player on the 25-man roster. not one of them is carrying this team on its back.
“only a fool will play a .240 hitter everyday.”
then a lot of fools have won championships. i’ll gladly be that fool.
Jeter should not go to 1B because his offensive issues would be even more negative at 1B…
Jeters D has been just fine this yr. it is his offense and total lack of power that is the problem.
here are the Yanks problems not solutions but realistic issues;;
Damon(staying healthy) his offensive production has been very good.
Jeter(lack of offensive porduction especially power) power meaning 2B and Hr’s, etc.
Abreu(soft 280 avg) prone to significant ups and downs.
Aro(missed games) and also his avg with RISP
Hideki(health and power)
Giambi(health and avg.)
Cano(whole offensive game). D has been very good..
Posada(health, arm, and limited productions)
Molina(great D cannot hit)
Melky(whole offensive game).
1 or 2 starting pitchers needed..
Pen Kyle and Latroy.. Edwar, Veras, Mo have all done relatively well, Mo has been great…
that is it
Matt-
If only he could play like Manny Ramirez. I would have no problem with Jeter taking a dooker on Girardi’s desk it meant he could become 1/2 the player Manny is
Moose,
It does. But you know how it is. That’s the way it goes: if you reach that status of being a Yankee legend you are not going to see as much criticism in your decline years. Is it fair? Probably not. That’s just how it has always been though.
http://www.madein1903.com/forum
“…but is Melky’s arm really that much of a weapon anymore? Everyone knows not to run on him now.”
People know not to run on him because of his arm. Remove Melky from center, and more people will run against the replacement (Gardner)..So yes, an idle/defensive weapon is still a weapon.
:::Dusts off old history book:::
The Cuban Missile Crisis featured tons of nuclear explosives aimed at the United States. Although they were never fired, I would have still considered them a threat. The same situation applies.
“raymagnetic, it is time to get off the melky train”
I’m not on the Melky train. I’m just not on the Gardner train.
Anybody expecting Melky or Gardner to be the difference with this team scoring more runs is delusional.
>
Jeter has been an incredible offensive weapon, first class spokesman, a leader by example, and an embodiment of what you want your kid to be like if they ever became a pro. We owe him a huge debt as fans. So was Mattingly near the end, but Donnie was hurting the team. Jeter is not at that point yet, but not far from it unless the decline can be reversed. I do hope he proves me wrong, it would be my true pleasure to eat my words, but I am trying to be objective in my worries if that makes sense.
if we do move melky to the bench i suspect that would have an adverse effect on cano
YOU GUYS MIGHT FIND THIS INTERESTING… CASHMAN’S TRADE HISTORY.
IF THE LINKS DO NOT WORK GO TO MLB TRADE RUMORS TO GET THE INFO.
GM Trade History: Brian Cashman
By Tim Dierkes [July 1 at 11:24am CST]
Next up in our GM Trade History series, the Yankees’ Brian Cashman. Cash’s current contract with the Yanks runs through this season.
Many thanks to Brendan Bianowicz for putting together Cashman’s history, which can be downloaded as an Excel spreadsheet here. Please let us know in the comments if you find any errors or omissions.
Commenters have mentioned that this info would be better as a searchable webpage, and I agree. We’ll look into that after Brendan has finished all the GMs.
YOU GUYS MIGHT LIKE THIS. CASHMAN’S TRADE HISTORY.
GM Trade History: Brian Cashman
By Tim Dierkes [July 1 at 11:24am CST]
Next up in our GM Trade History series, the Yankees’ Brian Cashman. Cash’s current contract with the Yanks runs through this season.
Many thanks to Brendan Bianowicz for putting together Cashman’s history, which can be downloaded as an Excel spreadsheet here. Please let us know in the comments if you find any errors or omissions.
Commenters have mentioned that this info would be better as a searchable webpage, and I agree. We’ll look into that after Brendan has finished all the GMs.
I meant kyle and latroy are the pen issues…
edwar for all his issues has been decent at least…
as long as gardner slides into first.
Isn’t Jeter’s defensive rating in the Top 6 this year?
He’s playing better defense this year than he has in the last 3 years.
Unless of course, the people who are complaining about his defense haven’t been watching the games this year.
His offense is down but not his defense. At least not this year.
j
July 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
if we do move melky to the bench i suspect that would have an adverse effect on cano
If that is indeed the case, then that was the worst $30 million the yankees ever spent
“A. We are halfway thru this season”
Whats your point? Half a season is a large enough sample size to say with confidence “Jeter has shown a lot of improvement on defense”
“C. You can’t possibly argue Jeter is, if not the worst, one of the worst left ranging SS’s in the league.”
Yes I can, the stats back me up.
“Bottom line: he looks slower and is only 34. I know we all had hopes of him playing that position until whenever he decided to leave, but we need to be more realistic.”
Oh he looks slower. I guess we should just trust your eye. I’m sorry but you’re wrong and saying he should be moved to first is asinine for several reasons.
farnsworthy
“only a fool will play a .240 hitter everyday.”
Don’t talk about Terry Francona like that. Boston thinks Varitek is valuable to the team.
Sorry the link didn’t post… try this one.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
scroll down to the third or fourth article.
Who cares about Cabera.The pitching is a more important problem.Mussina ain’t throwing 100 pitches in 6 innings every game.WE have insurance for our offense but when it comes to pitching it’s bad.
I’m not worried about Jeter. He’s looked better in the field this year and he’s a #2 hitter people. He doesn’t need to hit 30HR’s. He needs to hit singles and doubles and hit .300 and have a good on base percentage. He will do that. He’s too young to be “done”.
Melky, on the other hand, is not enough of a hitter of be an everyday CF.
If we’re playing him in CF for defense, then he’s akin to Rey Ordonez. Which is great for a team where everyone else is tearing it up, but on this team we need production out of CF and we’re getting little to none.
I don’t know if Gardner can do the job, but he should be given a shot. The team has nothing to lose since you’re not losing anything by benching Melky.
I think the problem the organization has with Melky is they know they can lose him mentally as a player with this kind of demotion. There is no doubt that he will take it hard and if Gardner doesn’t pan out, you may have an even worse player in Melky than you do right now.
That shouldn’t stop the team though from making the move.
The bottom of our order is a disgrace. With Posada not being able to catch regularly and Molina getting the time, Cano, Molina and Melky are God awful.
Part of the problem with the offense is the bottom is not setting up the top. Damon should be getting more RBI opportunities. Same with Jeter.
Instead, our top of the order constantly has to try to get on base instead of driving in runs.
Give Gardner the shot. If we lose Melky mentally because of benching him, send him to Scranton and get him working on his swing. Right now, his defense (while very good) isn’t winning ballgames. We need some kind of offense out of CF and we need the bottom of the order to get on base once in awhile.
What’s sad is that he was a decent trade chip last year and this off season. Weren’t we going to get Marte for him from Pit at one point, but Cashman wouldn’t part with Melky for him?
I think it’s silly to say “this is what he is” at age 23. There are plenty of years left for him to instill a super work ethic and improve. It could happen.
It is also silly to say “he’s going to improve”. I have watched almost every game and do not see improvement at the plate. In a game where everyone smacked Pedro Martinez around, Pedro struck out Melky on three pitches. That at-bat was a microcosm of his problems.
I think Gardner should get the CF time for the time being. If he can be the sparkplug many envision then he can help the team.
I saw a few comments about Cano and that’s an interesting comparison. The combination of Melky and Cano – both who’ve played virtually every game – being so bad means that 22% of the lineup has been bad.
There is no replacement for Cano. He has to play himself out of his funk (which it looks like he is doing).
There is a replacement for Melky. Whatever his thought andn work process was – a sense of entitlement or just reaching his ceiling – he has played himself to the bench.
Doris-
You seriously would want a Manny type on your team? How could you ever say that about one of the classiest people vs someone with no class. The sad thing is that Manny is allowed to get away with his act by a gutless Red Sox team. Not only is he allowed to punch a teammate with no punishment, he can attack an older man who is doing his job. Is that what the world is coming to? It is a joke he should be punished the same as the Astros handled Shaun Chacon. The Red Sox have shown no guts with any of their players they let them all do whatever they want. From Derek Lowes obsecen gestures after game 5 2003, to Pedro throwing Zimmer, David Ortiz walking off the field every time he doesnt hit, to Manny doing everything he does. I guess Manny learned how to treat his elders from Pedro. Jeter does a lot more for his team in all aspects of the game than Manny does in his one hitting aspect.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
“that series of sentences does not even pass the most basic of logic tests. you could say that for every player on the 25-man roster. not one of them is carrying this team on its
back.”
Darn I forgot to run logic tests on my sentences before I posted. I’ll remember this time.
I never said Melky or anyone else should be carrying the team on his back. My point was people brush off Melky’s struggles and say he’s just the number nine hitter and he isn’t the reason the Yankees are losing. Well the Yankees lose because the entire team isn’t performing well enough. Melky is part of the team. Why can’t we try to upgrade the centerfield position? Melky is the worst starter on offense, its only logical to try and upgrade the weakest spots first.
so many intelligent things brought up on here as to where the team is having trouble, and now people want to focus on moving Derek Jeter to 1B…
…I swear there has to be a contingent of fans on here who were only playing video game baseball prior to 2008.
“Yet Cabrera has played in 81 games and is a lineup constant, even against left-handers despite his atrocious performance (.198/.289/.255) as a right-handed hitter.”
Oh don’t worry Pete. Once he starts heating up and faces a pitcher he owns, Girardi will give him a day off to play manager… like he did with Cano against the Mets.
stop the conjecture on Cano performing worse if Melky sits, that is BS..
You never know so do not spout BS…
Cano needs to play the way he is suppose to..
Again Cano has played worse then the likes of Iwamura, roberts, pedroia, kinsler, the whitesox 2b, casilla on Minny, and possible grudzilanek, and others..
THAT IS SHOCKING>>>>>>>>>
Isn’t the whole reason Gardner was called up because Matsui is hurt? People are missing the point that we don’t even need to sit Melky in order to give Gardner a shot.
Damon is hurting too, let Garner play left and see what he can do till Matsui is back. Damon can DH or rest all together if he needs it.
I would love to see that kid’s speed on this team, but he has to earn it.
Jete’s defense is fine and improved over the past three years. He and A-Rod just need an occassional day off. It’s like Girardi handles them as if this 2001.
“Jeter is a player you cant compare with stats you need to see what he does. Would he ever act like Jose Reyes or Manny Ramirez? I think not.”
Who cares. Both of those players are bigger parts of the offense than Jeter is. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against Jeter. I just think his prior success, quick rise to glory in a Yankee uniform and World Series heroics cloud alot of people’s judgement on who Derek Jeter is today which is : a below avg. defensive shortstop with great clutch and avg. hitting who is just getting out of his prime and getting on the slow side. his OBP this season is below .400.
Oh, and he is making 22 million.
Sometimes a young player needs a week off to reflect, this would be a good time to get it done
Matt-
My guess is you are too young to remember Jack McDowell give the whole stadium the finger. If Paul O’neil pulled the same stuff while wearing a sox uniform im sure you would have driven you nuts and made your cute little list. Gotta love holier-than-thou yankee fans.
Patrick, are you getting your fielding stats from Hardball Times?. Do you have any other fielding stats on Jeter? Hardball Times is a respectable source, but at this point I’d like to see fielding stats derived from some other source as well, just to be sure. Jeter has shown fielding stats near the bottom of the league for a while, so a sudden turn around is a little suspicious. Also, I note the Hardball Times fielding stats show Michael Young as fielding his position very well, too, and he has been near the bottom in previous years as well.
So, I’d like a little back-up. Based on what I see, at the park and on TV, Jeter doesn’t seem to have dramatically improved.
(with apologies to Oscar Hammerstein)
He roams the field and scrapes his knee
His uni has got a tear
He waltzes through the dugout
And whistles on the stair
And underneath his nonchalance
His head seems in the air
I even heard him singing in the outfield
He’s always late on fastballs
But at least his effort’s real
He’s always late on every pitch
But on time for every meal
I hate to have to say it
But I may start to feel
Melky’s not an asset to the outfield
I’d like to say a word on his behalf
Melky makes me laugh
How do you solve a problem like Cabrera?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you solve a problem like Cabrera?
And even worse, he slides to first! A clown!
Many a thing you know you’d like to tell him
Many a thing he ought to understand
But how do you make him stay
And listen to all you say
How do you keep a wave upon the sand
Oh how do you solve a problem like Cabrera?
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?
sorry, that should read “If paul o’neil pulled the same stuff while wearing a sox uniform im sure it would have driven you nuts and been included in your cute little list”
“Isn’t Jeter’s defensive rating in the Top 6 this year?”
SJ, of course you know better. The ratings systems differ and some still show him as well below average this year (Ex: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/jeterde01.php, look at Rate, RAR, RAA). The point there is that it’s difficult to quantify defense even if you use a very advanced proprietary system like the A’s do. He does appear to have improved via observation (positioning mostly it seems), but I’d be hardpressed to imagine this will get better. Much more likely to get worse.
His advanced offensive stats are really awful since last June (over 600 ABs), only partially mitigated by the weakness at the positon around the league and his high BA.
“Again Cano has played worse then the likes of Iwamura, roberts, pedroia, kinsler, the whitesox 2b, casilla on Minny, and possible grudzilanek, and others..”
Kinsler is probably legitimately better than Cano is, even when going well. The rest of these guys??? Not so much, but look out for Casilla and Ramirez (the White Sox 2b you speak of). They look like nice players in the making.
Jeter’s zone rating has been in the Top 6 all season.
Higher than Orlando Cabrera, Julio Lugo and Aybar, 3 shortstops for playoff teams if the season ended today.
Jeter’s defense has been a positive this year. The whining about his defense are for past ills, not from his play this year.
You want to see a guy who can’t play the position anymore? Try watching Edgar Renteria in Detroit. Its sad how much he has declined as a defensively SS.
yup, what G. Love said.
Doris-
Actually I was there for the McDowell game so dont tell me I’m too young. 2nd Paul Oneill played hard and was intense. Thats different than what the Red Sox let people get away with. Did I criticize Pedroia or Lowell or even Youkilis? There is a proper way to play the game and treat it with respect. And there is a wrong way.
How come Girardi rests everyone except for Jete and A-Rod?
You know, two weeks ago you couldn’t even mention Brett Gardner coming up here because SJ44 and bunch of others would get all over you for suggesting it. So, I see improvement.
On the other hand, the home stand and the remaining games through the all-star break are enormously important.
If you want to bench Melky and play Gardner full time, then either you think the Yanks are done for and want to see what we have for next year, or you are some stone-cold gambler to want to put an untested rookie in center field.
I think odds are the Yanks won’t make the play-offs, but I’m not ready to give up hope. Also, I’m not a big gambler at heart. I like Gardner but I’d vote for sticking with Melky till the All-Star break and address the CF position then.
“No, at worst he will be worst than Melky. He could put up Melky’s numbers and be worse defensively. At worst he could be Corey Patterson, another speedy guy who strikes out a lot.”
Alright, I’ll give you that much. He could strike out all his at-bats and swing at balls in the dirt. But do you really think that’s what’s going to happen? It would be different if he was replacing Damon, but when Melky is doing as poorly as he is, I don’t understand why checking out other options is the end of the world.
“Anybody expecting Melky or Gardner to be the difference with this team scoring more runs is delusional.”
Again, nobody (in their right mind) should expect him to come into the Bronx with an “S” on his chest; setting the league record for triples and stealing 50 bases. But you’re missing the point as to why people are excited and why they want to see him get playing time over Melky.
Melky isn’t getting the job done. His AVG/OBP/OPS has abysmal this season, as well as a good part of last season. He strikes out a lot, and when he doesn’t strike out, he gets himself out consistently.
So let’s give someone else a try.
pat July 1st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
farnsworthy
“only a fool will play a .240 hitter everyday.â€
Don’t talk about Terry Francona like that. Boston thinks Varitek is valuable to the team.
——
they won 2 world series with him as their catcher. how many has this team won with melky? hmmm… i think 0. poor guy.
I don’t think you can blame all of the Yanks offensive woes on Melky.
I think Cano is the bigger factor so far. He was an automatic out for almost 2 months. A-Rod is having an ok year but not a spectacular one like last year. He carried the team for a month last year while everyone else languished. Jeter’s average is down likely caused by the HBP.
All of the above amplifies Melky’s struggles. That said, why not give Gardner a shot. I doubt he will do worse than Melky has so far.
Nick in SF –
I think I need serious drugs/therapy because the same song crossed my mind when I saw the post.
That or you are a genius . . .
OK – nice work Einstein!
Nick
The Sound of Melky. Bravo! Bravo! Encore!!
Does anyone think that Melky’s regression has to do with the hitting coach? In 2006 (his best year) it was Mattingly and the last two years as he has regressed it have been Kevin Long.
Gardner wasn’t “stuck in the minors.” He wasn’t ready yet. Read any report on him for 2008, they all state that his power and plate disciple went up.
Realistically, both Melky and Gardner are 4th outfields or AAAA type of players. Watching Gardner last night, I saw Juan Pierre. What I want is Billy Butler (how about that name from the past!) Someone to take a lot of pitchers, slap a single the other way, drag bunt and just get on base. That was were Melky was going before he regressed.
I am a Melky fan.
Give Gardner the LF job and have Damon DH to rest his foot. The roster is poorly constructed with 3 catchers which is a bigger issue than the number 9 hitter.
Back to Cashman bashing for me. If Melky is not what they want or is has reached his peak why didnt Cash move him and get a better player for that critical position. Now of course, like his other two spuerstars Kennedy and Hughes they are at low value and untradable
SJ, where are your fielding ratings coming from? Do those stats really accord with what you are watching? Not being sarcastic or argumentative, just want to know.
If you don’t like the zone ratings or don’t believe in them, aside from your opinion, what are you basing Jeter’s supposed “poor” play at SS this year?
I have watched just about every game this season. The guy is playing better at SS than he has since 2004. Its not just my eyes, the numbers back it up.
He has more range to his left and has made more consistent throws than he has in 3 seasons.
Just to say, “he is going to decline” isn’t really true.
One the one hand, EVERY player declines. That’s natural. On the other hand, Jeter HASN’T declined defensively this year. He has improved and has done it at 34 years old.
Shouldn’t he get credit for putting in the off-season work to gain such improvement?
Offensively? Since the fact that he has played for 6 weeks with a cracked bone in his hand thanks to getting nailed by Daniel Cabrera, I’ll give him a pass on his offense.
You win with more guys on the team like Derek Jeter than you do without him.
Folks need to remember than when searching for daily scapegoats as to why the team is struggling.
Patrick,
the fact that Jeter is having a better defensive year this year, than in prior years should show he isn’t a good defensive shortstop. Last time I check, 28-33 is a players prime. You think he will get better in the field starting at 34? once again, it’s been only half a season and even if he has a better defensive year this season as opposed to prior ones, i wouldn’t count on him keeping it up @ 35-37. And I watch the games, IDK what you are watching, but i see a slew of balls roll to the left of the second base bag that wouldn’t even be a diving play for most shortstops, but somehow find a way thru against the Yankees. Bottom line, the guy chose to focus on his defense in the offseason making him a bit better so far, but more practice won’t overcome age and overall slowing down of a player.
“So, I’d like a little back-up. Based on what I see, at the park and on TV, Jeter doesn’t seem to have dramatically improved.”
I look mostly at zone rating. You can also look at fielding win shares which has Jeter a bit above average.
“That said, why not give Gardner a shot. I doubt he will do worse than Melky has so far.”
My sentiments exactly.
Nick in SF -
Very clever.
farnsworthy
your post said nothing about winning only about crazy.
This age 23 stuff is annoying when he turns 24 next month lol.
G Love that was for Mike Gonzalas not Marte, but the Yankees couldn’t even get Marte for him now.
Hey guys, once more: it seems i might have 2 tickets to spare for tonight, unless my friend changes his plans, if anybody’s interested, let me know… (Professorsparkles (at) gmail.com.
“Give Gardner the LF job and have Damon DH to rest his foot. The roster is poorly constructed with 3 catchers which is a bigger issue than the number 9 hitter.”
so the team shouldnt worry about the lack of production from an everyday CF’er, but instead, needs to focus on finding the best 25th man in the game?
where’s the logic in that?
We may not “got melk” for much longer.
“SJ, where are your fielding ratings coming from? Do those stats really accord with what you are watching?”
Don’t watch a great deal of the other 13 SS’s in the AL, but it always seemed to me Jeter was terrific to his right and considerably less than that to his left.
BTW, anyone think Jeter will ever give Alex Gonzalez his 2006 Gold Glove????
JoeyA, SJ responded to your points pretty well in the post right above yours. I have nothing to add.
“You think he will get better in the field starting at 34? ”
Why not? He changed his offseason workout and diet regimen.
Didn’t Esteban Loaiza flip off the fans too?
He was a big loser.
Jeter is by no means a scapegoat. His play hasn’t lost us any games, i’m just being realistic about the decline of a player. I’m not saying get rid of the guy, he is a far better option than 95% of the other SS’s out there. I’m just saying, he’s not immortal, and more importantly, not young.
Here is what you are all missing. THE TEAM IS JUST A BAD BUNCH OF AGING OR OVERPAID LAZY BUMS. IF YOU THINK JETER CARES AS MUCH AS YOU PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE.
You Gardner enthusiasts are just too much.
First you are shocked when Girardi pinch hits the veteran Johnny Damon in place of a man with less than one game of MLB experience and now you are positive that Brett Gardner is the solution to all of the Yankees problems.
Come back to reality.
well done, Nick
Melky is a future all star. He’s just going thru a slump every young player goes thru.
What does everyone expect from Joba vs a superior lineup? This will be his first true test. I am sure that as long as everyone doesnt expect a shutout or 10 k’s every time he will do fine tnite. 6 innings 3 runs 5 hits 6 k’s.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
Let me throw out a general question:
Is Derek Jeter currently worth the salary we are paying him?
I don’t get all the Malky vitriol. I like him in the field and think he does bring a good energy to the team. He just needs to learn a little more discipline. Either way, even if he’s not that good, he’s ninth man in a lineup with eight other All-Stars. EVERY OTHER F-ING STARTER IS AN ALL-STAR.
If Melky Cabrera’s lack of production at the plate is the reason the Yankees don’t make the postseason this year, than we may as well go the hell home right now. Get the pitching in order and you should be able to run that lineup out everyday and win games.
With or without Melky.
I’d love to see what Pete would’ve written about a young Bernie Williams.
I see Melky ending up as a slighly less producive (and exciting) Carlos Gomez. Thats not bad.
“What does everyone expect from Joba vs a superior lineup?”
It’s not a superior lineup when they are away from their own barn, but it’s a pretty good one.
7, 6 hits, 2 ER, 3 BB, 10 K
“Melky is a future all star. ”
No he’s really not.
I agree with raymagnetic to a certain extent.
Gardner’s difference, if any, would be marginal, provided it’s a positive difference at all.
Melky’s assist numbers may be a function of the league respecting his arm (whether that be his assist statistics, Kill and the like or just highlight reputation). I’m not sure, I haven’t analyzed the numbers, but it’s logical speculation.
However, I also believe there needs to be a certain level of accountability on this team. We are getting younger, and a ton of huge contracts are coming off the books next year. There needs to be a movement stating that if you do not perform to your abilities and expectations, you can and will be replaced with someone who can, whether that be at the CF, RP, SP, etc positions.
If Melky is left to put up the horrific .OPS is has (just as Cano has until recently), where does it end? How do you justify in the future that Austin Jackson can take over his position if he’s been consistently poor for over a year? Why wait that long?
The worse thing that can happen is a marginal loss of production from Gardner and then Melky returns to his job, hopefully with an added fire and respect for his position on the team.
To answer your question, of course he isnt. What aging ex-superstar at the end of his contract is?
No use crying over spilt Melk.
LOL- they are now reporting that Arod apparantly went to Madonna’s apartment the night his wife have birth. Priceless!
I’d like to see Gardner play also but I don’t think Melky is the problem. Melky is YOUNGER than Gardner and is still learning, just as Bernie had to learn back in the early 90’s. I talked to Pete about this while we were out in Scranton but I guess somebody has to stir the pot here. I think Melky will be fine once he learns the school of hard knocks. Right now, that hard knock might be a temporary removal of CF, if only for a few days.
SJ44-
I believe strongly in fielding statistics. I check out the Fielding Bible, Baseball Prospectus and Hardball Times for the fielding stats pretty regularly. That’s why I find Jeter’s numbers this year in Hardball Times pretty surprising, because if you chart his fielding stats for the past several years they are not good, and this year is definitely in keeping with past performance.
Player’s usually don’t suddenly improve their defense dramatically as they get older. Typically, they get worse. Now Jeter may have improved, but my eyes aren’t telling me he has. That’s why I’m suspicious and asked where your stats are coming from.
I asked a good faith question, but I get some kind of arrogant know-it-all answer with no substance behind it.
I’m not blaming Jeter for this year – he’s still one of the best shortstops in the AL (let’s don’t think about the NL)and far from our biggest problem.
“Is Derek Jeter currently worth the salary we are paying him?”
I’ve always answered that question thusly:
He’s worth it to the Yankees, but it’s an untradeable contract because he’s not worth it to anyone else.
Now, I’m not so sure he’s worth it to the Yankees anymore.
Is Jeter worth 22 million a year? Prob not. But his contract cant be held against him. Has it hindered the team in making moves? Doubtful. Has he earned the money back? Probably 100 times over. Does he deserve a new contract? You bet, and hate to break it to you it will prob be for about the same salary.
Sue Wilson
Virginia Clark
“Let me throw out a general question:
Is Derek Jeter currently worth the salary we are paying him?”
Nope but I would say No for every player on the team except Joba, Rivera, Damon, Veras and maybe Molina.
Wasn’t a Austin Jackson-level prospect or two wanted for Marte? Or some other rediculous demand by the Pirates GM
Patrickâ„¢
Who are you to say that Melky isn’t a future All Star
Re: Melky.
April, March, May, September, October 2007, May, June 2008.
120 games, 430 ABs, 477 PAs, .212/.271/.277 line (AVG/OBP/SLG). Horrid.
June, July, August 2007, April/March 2008.
111 games, 398 ABs, 452 PAs, .319/.374/.485 line. Excellent.
Overall, 2007+2008.
231 games, 828 ABs, 929 PAs, .263/.321/.377 line. Mediocre.
V, unfortunately Melky does not appear to be a future all star. He is still young, but he now has a lot of big league experience. If he doesn’t start to get it done soon, I don’t think he will be here much longer. If Melky hit .280 you could more than live with him in the lineup. For a CF he does not have good range. The only thing above average about Melky is his arm. But when a guy is hitting .240 and brings nothing to the table offensively as well as no speed on the bases he really has very little value.
I’ve been a fan of Melky since he was first brought up and thought he got a raw deal when everyone was so hard on him in ‘05 because he clearly wasn’t ready. When he hit .280 in ‘06 I thought he had potential to be a solid starter, but his AVG and OBP have gone down in each of the last 2 years, at an age where most young players that are future all stars get better.
“Why not? He changed his offseason workout and diet regimen.”
So far that change has resulted in:
An improved defensive year, while batting .280 with 5 stolen bases and an OBP of .340?
If the guy has lost weight and is so damn fast, why doesn’t he steal more this year than last? I mean 15 is no whopping steals total, but he’s on track for 11 this year.
Once again, I LOVE the guy. he is the embodiment of a Yankee, but we need to be realistic. And NO Patrick, nobody gets faster with age. Not even Barry could pull that off.
CORRECTION:
Jeter’s stats this year are NOT in keeping with past years performance.
Sorry.
Furthermore, the arguement shouldn’t be if Melky Cabrera is the reason the Yankees miss the playoffs or not.
The idea is to maximize production from the CF position. If the Yankees CF that plays regularly is the best product the organization is able to put out on the field given their resource constraints (Melky, Damon, Gardner, Jackson, trade market etc), than that’s all you can ask for.
If not, that may be one of the several reasons the Yankees do or do not make the playoffs.
The question is, are the Yankees fielding their most productive team at each position, in this case CF.
“Patrickâ„¢
July 1st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“Melky is a future all star. â€
No he’s really not.”
D00d. That’s ‘fake V’.
If you see ‘V’ saying something idiotic and childish, please do me a favor and ignore him.
Moose:
There are *some* possible shortstop replacements in the minors (the highest-profile and most noteable example currently is Carmen Angelini), but they’re admitedly all in the low-minors, so they’re all (at best) three or four years away.
Otherwise, I completely agree with what you’re coming from re: Jeter. I think this team has missed its chance to gracefully ease Jeter off the shortstop position (say, plugging in him the outfield–where I think a couple of years ago his game would have translated really well), or moving him to first.
Granted, the good news about Jeter is that he has never particularly relied on “old player’s” skills such as batting eye and power, and while it’s doubtful that he’ll suddenly develop these skills overnight, there is the possibility that Jeter can remain a productive hitter as he ages if he makes adjustments to his game.
It’s hard to think about what to do with Jeter for the next two years. He’s having a rebound season defensively (back to being at the low end of middle-of-the-pack defensively, rather than an absolute butcher like last year), and that’s at least somewhat comforting, and if his defense doesn’t slip tremendously from that (admittedly tenuous) platform, that will continue to ease the offensive decline.
Certainly, however, it has the potential to be a troublesome area for the Yankees in the next few years, I think I certainly agree on that front.
“Who are you to say that Melky isn’t a future All Star”
I am a rational human being that has watched a lot of baseball. Look at his stats, look at his swing. He will not be an all-star and you’re dreaming if you think he will be.
Here is what you are all missing. THE TEAM IS JUST A BAD BUNCH OF AGING OR OVERPAID LAZY BUMS. IF YOU THINK JETER CARES AS MUCH AS YOU PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE.
This is the problem with giving idiots a keyboard.
I blame Cash for this Melky thing. If Melky is not the guy they thought he was or has reached his peak, blame Cashman. He held onto him last winter. Now he stuck with three players who he rated highly, Melky, Kennedy, Hughes. He refused to trade them when they were high value now he is stuck with them at their lowest value
“Melky is a future all star. He’s just going thru a slump every young player goes thru.”
WOW! He is not even close, the guy cant hit, he is a hacker and gets a lot of bloops, what your seeing now is that his bloops are not falling in.. Pete was right on the money!
IF Melky is such a stud defensively, we can always use him as a ball girl that way he can still field and doesn’t ever get to hit.
Nah seriously, I don’t care if it was Arod, if you are as bad as Melky has been you need some time off period. Give Gardner a change to shine..
Trust me, those that have not seen Gardner before, you just wait and see the speed and the pressure he puts on the pit her, which gives whoever up the advantage..
Melky = Slump
Brett = Chance
enough said.
V,
So the real V doesn’t tell others to “go away”?
We can’t blame the Yankees not making the playoffs on Melky or anybody else for that matter. IMO, at the end of the day, if we don’t make the playoffs, it is going to come down to the fact that we lost, not only our best SP, but one of the best in the league. you can’t make up for a guy like that, especially not with the likes of Ponson and Rasner.
JoeyA,
Of course a player could get faster. Jeter had an injured knee all last season. This season he got healthy, lost weight and worked on lateral movement.
“V,
So the real V doesn’t tell others to “go awayâ€?”
Fake mel too?
and now you are positive that Brett Gardner is the solution to all of the Yankees problems.
Nobody has said that, and it gets so annoying to hear people claim this over and over again.
Nobody said to let Abreu walk in his free-agent year because of gardner. People are saying they would like to see more of him. That’s it.
“Now he stuck with three players who he rated highly, Melky, Kennedy, Hughes.”
i dont see necessarily how this is really a problem. Hughes is still a high upside pitcher who needs to get healthy, IPK can still work his way back to the back of the rotation, and Melky can provide, at minimum, a defensive asset off of the bench for the next comes years at practically no cost.
damn cashman.
The offensive woes are more than just Melky’s fault but the Yankees are slowly realizing how much they have overvalued his worth. He hit a couple homers early this year but his numbers have plateaued. Overall he has shown very little performance since 2006. The number don’t lie. He would be a perfect fourth outfielder and he would be so on many other teams.
Yankees have had quite a run. Maybe not so many World Series as we all, and they, would have liked, I’m sure. But making the playoffs as many consecutive years as they have is no small feat, especially in today’s game. This game is pretty cyclical and teams will dominate and fade, dominate and fade, IF THEY’RE LUCKY. Most teams kinda just go along, occasionally winning a spot in the playoffs or the World Series. The Yankees franchise has dominated MLB with only a few setbacks for, like, ever.
It seems kind of the natural course of events for the Yankees to require a rebuilding, a regeneration, if you will. I think part of that occurs because you bring up your young guys, guys like Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Mo, and you build your team around them and they are successful and so even as they get older, they are performing, and you stick with them, and then one day, they are declining. Not declined, not finished, but not on the upside anymore, either. And the decline may be slow and take a few seasons, but while it’s happening, those are still your core guys.
I think it’s inevitable, unless you re-establish your core, replenish the youth in your system, that the performance of the team is going to decline even as its individual members are in decline. The Yankees right now are out of balance. It will get better, and it’s difficult to watch at times, but to me it just seems like the nature of the beast (baseball), and that it is wise to remember that the Yankees have really had it better than ALL the other teams out there. That history is what drives the need to succeed, and it is why the Yankees will never be out of the hunt for very long.
I also think the argument about the Yankees having the money to win is a false argument. Sometimes players are paid more than they are worth in the first place, because they happened to be the best available player in a certain off-season, but not necessarily the best player. Also, the Yankees tend to have to pay more to attract players here, to at least some extent, because as great a place as NY is to play, it has its challenges that not all players want to deal with. And the last thing about money is that money doesn’t actually go out and play the game. We’re still talking human beings here
One more thought – every says the Yankees need to get away from the “all-star at every position” mind set, and yet when they have a player (Melky, for instance) who is not all-star calibre, yet plays a better-than-decent centerfield, you all go nuts! Also, many people seem to conflicted when it comes to discussing defense. It seems to correlate with offensive production in the long run – in other words, you can tolerate below average defense if the offensive production is above average. We really can’t have our cake and eat it, too. At least not all the time. The bottom line is if the all-star players were hitting with RISP, then Melky wouldn’t even be a blip. And Gardner can get on base twice as much as Melky, but if the all-stars are still not hitting with men on base, how will Gardner help? He’ll simply be one more RISP not driven in.
Thank you, thank you. TKinDC, warped minds thing alike.
I actually thought this (from last night’s night owl thread) was a superior effort:
X: Knock knock.
Y: Who’s there?
X: Manny.
Y: Manny who?
X: This is an internal matter.
Sense you seem to think you are psychic, indulge me and tell me my future.
Melky has a good 10/15 years left in his career and you are in no position to say that he will never be an All Star.
next couple years**
I think the more maddening thing as fans is to watch guys like Cano and Cabrera regress like the do. The fact that they pal around together only magnifies it for some of us.
Clearly there are people who are just flat out Cano and Cabrera fans, but there are also a lot of us who don’t understand why they are not taking the next step.
They’ve both been in the majors awhile and it appears they are still making rookie mistakes.
Cano is more frustrating than Melky in that he has shown his offense to be amazing at times.
Melky was the juice this team needed when all the old OF’ers started breaking down, but now he’s a regular. He’s not the plucky kid who came up and made some great catches and throws.
He’s the starting CF on the Yankees and he has to do more than field his position.
Why he and Cano don’t take the next step is an interesting question.
Is it coaching? Is it the personality of the players?
I don’t know.
All I know is they’ve been up for awhile and they are still not all there.
Cano is in a different league than Melky as a player, but they seem to share a brain in that they both can’t be consistent. Their fielding is very good right now, but their hitting is hurting the team.
TurnTwo….
Of course the starting CF needs to produce. But is the production from Melky to Gardner going to be that much of an improvement? Personally, I hope so but as the Magic 8 ball says, All Signs Point To No.
Gardner comps out to a 4th outfielder. Nothing more. He has speed, no power, decent plate discipline. Wasn’t that Melky 2 years ago.
They are both 4th outfielders. Let’s accept that. If they hit league average, I’ll accept that as there is no one else available (Lofton?) that can make the team CONSIDERABLY better. They will both probably play better than average defense (Melky with arm, Gardner with speed) so that’s a plus.
We think of this Yankee team as “every day players.” But they are not anymore – that are older. What happens when Giambi gets hurt (he hasn’t played this much in the field in years). To keep the veterans fresh, they require appropriate time off. Even David Wright needed a day.
There has been no reliable 4th outfielder (Duncan, yuck), the back up infielder can’t field (Balboni, oops Betimet), the second level infielder (Gonzolaz) can’t hit. There is a 3rd catcher as insurance.
I don’t see Gardner being a savior. If he is average, I’ll take it.
Hate to say it, but the Yankees don’t make the playoffs (starting pitching is too much of a question) and let the rebuilding begin.
The Jeter haters are amusing. Remember in ‘04 when he was finished? I’m not saying he will ever hit .340 again, but its not like this guy cant be a .300 hitter. Speed is not a big part of his game. He was hitting .317 before being plunked on the wrist. He’ll get healthier and he will get start to get better. We’ve seen him start to drive the ball more in the last week. The 2 linedrives off the wall in Pitt and the one off the wall in Shea. On Sunday he had 2 of our 4 hits against a guy that was dealing.
“Melky has a good 10/15 years left in his career and you are in no position to say that he will never be an All Star.”
i’ll agree with this… he certainly could have a good 10/15 year career and turn up as an all star in the japanese league, i’m sure.
yankee lover:
who would we have gotten for them, Johan, he obviously isn’t the ace we thought he was anymore.
Fallen Pheonix-
Well said regarding us missing our transition. As I said earlier, I think we held him in a God-like stature instead of viewing him as just another player. You can’t view a guy, especially a baseball player, in the same light you viewed him over 10 years ago. He isn’t that player anymore.
Good stuff Pete, I couldn’t agree more with you. Girardi needs to shake things up. Everyone said going into this season Girardi was the antithesis of Torre. In reality, hes a clone in terms of the players he plays, and the moves he makes.
To me how can we have a 4th outfielder starting for the 209 mil dollar payroll team? Also, that could only start on maybe2 or 3 other teams in baseball. That is the problem IMO
“I think the more maddening thing as fans is to watch guys like Cano and Cabrera regress like the do. The fact that they pal around together only magnifies it for some of us.
Clearly there are people who are just flat out Cano and Cabrera fans, but there are also a lot of us who don’t understand why they are not taking the next step.
They’ve both been in the majors awhile and it appears they are still making rookie mistakes.
Cano is more frustrating than Melky in that he has shown his offense to be amazing at times.
Melky was the juice this team needed when all the old OF’ers started breaking down, but now he’s a regular. He’s not the plucky kid who came up and made some great catches and throws.
He’s the starting CF on the Yankees and he has to do more than field his position.
Why he and Cano don’t take the next step is an interesting question.
Is it coaching? Is it the personality of the players?
I don’t know.
All I know is they’ve been up for awhile and they are still not all there.
Cano is in a different league than Melky as a player, but they seem to share a brain in that they both can’t be consistent. Their fielding is very good right now, but their hitting is hurting the team.”
If you’ve been paying attention, Cano’s been out of his slump for a couple of weeks.
If he falls back into one, we can have this convo again
“Of course the starting CF needs to produce. But is the production from Melky to Gardner going to be that much of an improvement? Personally, I hope so but as the Magic 8 ball says, All Signs Point To No.
Gardner comps out to a 4th outfielder. Nothing more. He has speed, no power, decent plate discipline. Wasn’t that Melky 2 years ago.
They are both 4th outfielders. Let’s accept that.”
ive always accepted that. i’m just saying, melky isnt getting it done, and there is another option so why not try him out?
this is playing the ‘gardner isnt the savior card’ and noone is disagreeing with that. but to sit there and just accept that your CF doesnt have to produce to play everyday is insane.
Melky carried us in April. He gets better each year. Those bashing him should know this.
But yes, this inconsistency is amazing: I’ll post Cano’s numbers in a bit. Here’s Melky:
April, March, May, September, October 2007, May, June 2008.
120 games, 430 ABs, 477 PAs, .212/.271/.277 line (AVG/OBP/SLG). Horrid.
June, July, August 2007, April/March 2008.
111 games, 398 ABs, 452 PAs, .319/.374/.485 line. Excellent.
Overall, 2007+2008.
231 games, 828 ABs, 929 PAs, .263/.321/.377 line. Mediocre.
Jose,
as bad as you think Santana has been hes still better than anything we have right now. He`d be a healthy stable starter capable of going deep into games. That trade, with Melky, Kennedy, or Hughes would have been great for the Yankees
“He gets better each year. Those bashing him should know this.”
Please tell me this is a joke.
You perform or hit the bench. Gardner earned a shot.
This really shouldn’t be such a debate. We’re talking about two prospects. Melky has not matured into what he should/could/would be, and Gardener hasn’t been given a shot to prove what he should/could/would be. All I know is the guy had the second highest OBP the minor leagues behind a 35 year old career minor leaguer. I saw him run in the spring and we saw him put pressure on the pitcher/defense last night when he got on. Give him a shot…he might contribute, which is something Melky is not doing offensively. Brett is very fast, is said to take very good routes and has a strong arm. It’s not like we’re going from Vlad Guerrero to Johnny Damon. Give the kid a shot…if he turns out to be legit thats great! If he fails give someone else a shot…but you can’t let Melky get too comfortable playing the way he is. He’s very young, which only means that he has to earn his position just like everyone else.
Patrick-
So where are the steals is my only question? You can build up your speed for more than just defense. It would be nice to turn some of those singles into doubles.
Regarding the Johan Sanatan situation: IPK currently needs to earn his way back and we all know how we feel about Melky. Hughes has a high upside based on a half year of pitching prior to this year. The way I see it, regardless of how much Sanatan has fallen off (which isn’t much, the guy has a below 3 ERA and is only 7-7 cause of terrible run support), we would have gotten him for two guys we could do without and Hughes, a pitcher with upside. Can’t change the past, but nobody can tell me this wasn’t a bad move. We rated IPK and Cabrera way too high. It’s one thing to invest in young talent, it is a totally different thing to be dillusional in your expectations.
“Melky has a good 10/15 years left in his career and you are in no position to say that he will never be an All Star.”
Ok then you are in no position to say that he ever WILL be an All Star.
Just go away, NJ in Tampa. Melky is a valuable player.
“This really shouldn’t be such a debate. We’re talking about two prospects. Melky has not matured into what he should/could/would be, and Gardener hasn’t been given a shot to prove what he should/could/would be. All I know is the guy had the second highest OBP the minor leagues behind a 35 year old career minor leaguer. I saw him run in the spring and we saw him put pressure on the pitcher/defense last night when he got on. Give him a shot…he might contribute, which is something Melky is not doing offensively. Brett is very fast, is said to take very good routes and has a strong arm. It’s not like we’re going from Vlad Guerrero to Johnny Damon. Give the kid a shot…if he turns out to be legit thats great! If he fails give someone else a shot…but you can’t let Melky get too comfortable playing the way he is. He’s very young, which only means that he has to earn his position just like everyone else.”
I was -very- impressed by his plate discipline yesterday.
SJ44,
Does Jeter really have a cracked bone in his hand? I don’t remember seeing that.
If that is the case, then people should lay off of him for his offensive performance.
I never said the CF doesn’t have to produce. Everyone needs to produce. I just hope that Gardner can do more. I am a Melky fan but he needs to sit and let’s see what Gardner can do.
Of course, after I post about people needing days off, Pete posts the lineup and Jeter gets the day off. hahaha
I also just want to say that Melky was on the trade table this past off-season. If Minnesota had accepted any number of offers (reported, unreported or rumored), Melky would be a Twin. So I just wish people would not keep saying that the Yankees held onto him. I believe if the right trade had come along and been accepted, Melky would have been a part of any such trade. If anything, he was the one given player who would have been included in any trade.
The big question was, however, before Gardner made some noise for himself in spring training, if not Melky in center, then who? Remembering that there was no one available once whatshisface was off the market.
The only way Melky Cabrera ever gets into an All-Star Game is with a search warrant.
doreen,
I remember saying Cashman that he didnt want to trade him, “he is the future” Cashman by saying that is telling us that he is convinced that Melky is a key player for a key position on a playoff contending team. Now that it looks like he was very wrong, he needs to take the hit. His bad scouting is why the team lacks any production in CF. In addition Gardner will be slightly better “maybe” offensively than Melky will be, and thats based on speed. So theres another guy “gardner” that Cashman is ready to plug in for the future that is probably not capable or up to what it needs to be
Pete
leave melky alone! give him time! he’s young.
he brings LIFE into this yankee club.
Melky was called out in the offseason by Cash and has not produced. April was an abnormality. May and June he’s come back to the Melky line.
See a change in the lineup has been made! Jeter gets the night off…lol
dumping Melky would be a panic move IMO. He’s an excellent CF, and has more power than Gardner seems to.
maybe later on if Melky can’t hit; but the guy’s young, he’s had 2 good years, i can’t drop him just to play Gardner.
Melky should have been traded in November.
The Melk’s Gone Sour! Give someone else a chance.
Yes I am, your pessimistic outlook isn’t going to get you far, Patrick.
Be careful throwing away a 23 year old switch-hitting centerfielder with a top shelf glove off of two bad months.
I think Melky is swinging from his heels too much and needs to be told to tone it down a tad.
I also think Brett Gardner’s obp is in for a major correction. When you have no power and strike out 1 out of 4 times, major league pitchers are not going to walk you.
I don’t have a problem sticking him in left field for a week, and dhing Damon, while Matsui heals. But I’ll be shocked if he’s anything more than a defensive replacement/pinch runner.
People who lump Cano in with Melky haven’t been paying attention. Cano’s turned it around. I don’t know where you find stats by month on a non-subscription basis but unless I have a poor memory, I think Pete had posted recently that Cano was hitting .350 or so in the month of June. Granted he dug himself a huge hole but I think he’s turned the corner.
I agree with Pete’s assessment that Melky is really a .260 to .270 hitter that provides good defense, little pop or speed on the basepaths. Its hard to say that he’s not slumping though because that’s not what he’s been providing the last month. I think Melky projects to a useful 4th OF on a good team or maybe a starter on a poor team. He’s a stopgap for the Yankees though and will continually be on a short leash because he just doesn’t have enough realistic potential upside to live with mediocre performance.
That said, I don’t really agree with Pete’s timing here. Matsui is out for the time being. Damon is a little hobbled. Let Gardner give Damon some time at DH and continue the normal rotations of giving Giambi and Posada the occassional day at DH and alternate Damon, Melky and Gardner out of the lineup on those days depending on matchups, health and recent performance.
None of us know what Gardner can provide at the major league level other than speed. We’ll know alot more when Matsui is back. When you need to squeeze Matsui back in the lineup is when you need to make a decision on Gardner vs. Melky. We should know more by then. In the meantime, sitting Melky and DHing Betemit doesn’t make a lot of sense. And I like Betemit more than most of you.
Again, Melky is not an excellent CF. He has an excellent arm, thats about it.
Bandwagoners! Gardners numbers weren’t much better at AAA.
why is every one tlaking abut melky… i want to know why we dont talk about pasada s contract and he cant even hit a 94 mph fastball and if the picher has a slider or a curvball in his repertory is a kkkkkkkkkkkk.. or lets talk about arod is just me or arod cant hit the ball when we really need it… every one keep blameing cano and melky why dont blame the ones who are the “stars of this team” i just dont get it
I’m just glad the Yankee’s front office doesn’t read this blog. They were be shocked how stupid some of the comments are from the “most educated fans in the world”.
So many people here couldn’t manage a bag of marbles but they KNOW who should stay and who should be shot out back.
Can’t you guys just enjoy watching the game??
I really want Melky Cabrera to leave the New York Yankees. I have NEVER liked him and never would. He has made some great, memorable plays but to me… he does not deserve to play Center Field for the New York Yankees. He has shown me to be nothing but a forth outfielder.
Perhaps we can trade him for a reliever.
Jay,
Anyone saying Gardner is the answer before they even see him play much is wrong (at least for now)
I think what most people are saying is if Melky is not producing and has brought very little to the table so far this year, and there is another guy with some potential that earned a spot on the big league roster. Why not give him a chance?
posada suck, arod suck when the yankees won in the 90 s the team was a team full of yankees lets see pasada was never a center piece in the 90s… jeter was but any one here in this blog can remain me in the 2008 line up who are the real yankees?? jeter??
Honestly, Gardner isn’t known for his offense. I bet you anything Melky can out hit Gardner.
Problem with Melky is that he’s a different hitter from years past. He’s less selective; doesn’t work the count or battle the pitcher as much as he used to. Could it be someone got in his ear and told him he needed to hit more homeruns? That is the freakin problem with this team. Everyone is enamored with the long ball. Leave Melky alone. He should just concentrate on making contact and putting the ball in play. Screw the homeruns. Just concentrate on getting and base and hitting doubles.
That was very well written. Fernando, Gardner is a walk machine. He gets on base a lot and then will steal second and third on you.
BBB,
Please re-read this comment of yours:
“…but is Melky’s arm really that much of a weapon anymore? Everyone knows not to run on him now.”
Will wonders never cease!
BTW:
“…but is Melky’s arm really that much of a weapon anymore? Everyone knows not to run on him now.â€
I am putting that in my “all-time” list at No. 1.
Pettitte also sucks because runners don’t steal on him anymore.
I always bugs me when people trot out the “we have bigger problems” argument.
We have a reasonable alternative to consider at CF. We don’t have one for 2B or the 4th and 5th starters. Marginal improvement is improvement nonetheless.
Gardner deserves a shot at consistent ABs for the next few weeks. Let’s be honest – it is difficult to do worse than Melky has been recently.
On the defensive side you are not taking into account how often a runner doesn’t try to advance due to Cabrera’s arm. Often once the league sees someone can get runners like he did last year the number goes down sinse they don’t run as freely.
who cares if he doesn’t put all star type numbers up? Why do the Yankees need to have an all star at every position? Plenty of other teams have a solid defensive player who doesn’t hit much in their lineup to anchor their defense. (Jason Bartlett in Tampa for ex). Melky isn’t the reason why the Yankees stink.
Melky is pretty much an automatic out
He is not a starter for any MLB team. Period
i agree and i’ve thought this for a couple weeks. we should give gardner a couple games in cf. not giving up on melky yet, just think they can be switched without losing too much.
melky needs more days off, for now.
He just need a dayoff today.Melky has a good defense at CF.Yankees need him to play with redsox and rays.