Tell Mo they changed the save rule
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- July
- 2
Mariano Rivera in save situations: 22 games, 23.1 innings, 8 hits, 0 runs, 2 walks, 27 strikeouts, 0.00 ERA.
Mariano Rivera in non-save situations: 13 games, 14 innings, 12 hits, 4 earned runs, 1 walk, 15 strikeouts, 2.57 ERA, 2-3 record.
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MLB Trade Rumors has an interesting series on the moves made by every GM in the game.
It includes this downloadable Excel spreadsheet with every move Brian Cashman has made.
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on Wednesday, July 2nd, 2008 at 10:34 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
i love that spreadsheet. the moves certainly have slowed down recently, no?
last night is not on Mo
It’s on the non existent offense.
“Ray, I’ve noticed, beyond being a pisspot today, that you really have no answers.
What don’t YOU attempt offering something intelligent instead of blasting other people’s thoughts???”
Fredo,
I don’t see any of you with any answers either, so what’s your point?
We have dissenting point of views. If you don’t want someone saying the opposite of what you’re saying then don’t post here.
If people are allowed to say the season is over in July, then I’m definitely allowed to say that it’s not over in July.
I’m not being a pisspot, I just don’t agree with a lot of the posters in here.
Dont apologize for being sensible, ray.
Mo in non-save situations this season (from the stats in Pete’s post):
0.929 WHIP
Over 1 K/IP
15:1 K/BB rate
These are good numbers, certainly not the sign of an inability to pitch in non-save situations. It’s just an odd coincidence.
Keep in mind that we’re talking about a grand total of 4 runs here. The fact that this is even an issue speaks more to Rivera’s absolute dominance in save situations than anything else.
Well, the Pon Pon is next.
Here’s to hoping he gives us something to cheer about.
Then we need two brooms for the next couple of series.
Many relievers struggle in non-save situations. I am a U of Georgia fan and Josh Fields was two different pitchers in save and non-save situations, the White Sox will find out. Fields also struggled in the Cape Cod League a few years back, only to be replaced by one David Robertson for the final game.
If Rivera really does struggle in non-save situations but dominates in save situations, we should just be thankful it’s not the other way around.
Everyone was complaining about Girardi not bunting Melky in the 9th. I was more annoyed that he DID bunt Gardner in the first. It was a stupid move in my opinion.
The Yanks got a leadoff double and had a chance for a big inning. At the very least, with Damon at second there were three shots at getting a single to score him. Gardner bunting is like giving away an out and gives the Yankees only 2 shots at getting him in. Also, the probability of a big inning is a lot lower.
Gardner is a lefty too so it was likely he would pull the ball and move Damon over even on an out.
Honestly I think this move stalled the Yankee offense and gave Millwood some confidence.
Those non-save numbers are NOT really that bad. Lot of MLB closers would take those numbers in their save situations.
sign Bonds or Sosa.
We need a bat, pronto.
“I was more annoyed that he DID bunt Gardner in the first.”
Amen brother! No reason for that at that stage of the game.
“But if you don’t like those facts, compare this year to last year and do it fairly. Last year - if memory serves me correctly - the Yankees started turning it on just before the All Star Game. This year, the Yankees are looking worse, not better, as they approach the All Star Break. And they have lost Wang.
The Yanks seem unlikely to make an impact trade-deadline move. Still, they might turn it around if, for example, Boston’s pitching falters and the Rays’ youngsters tire in the stretch from playing a full MLB season. But that Scooby Doo ending assumes the Yankees have no more injuries, that their aging veterans don’t tire either, that Pettitte and Moose stay hot, that they start hitting like mad, and that Joba outperforms all reasonable expectations - all at the same time and all starting tomorrow and all contrary to the first half trend.
It’s one thing to be optimistic, it’s another to ignore the evidence. The Yankees will have to pull off another miracle to get even the Wild Card. Let’s hope they do, but, be honest, it’s a long shot.”
Last year on July 13th the Yankees were 44-44. That was the last time they were a .500 team.
They do not need to pull off a miracle to make the playoffs. They have to continue at the pace they’ve had since May 20th to make the playoffs.
It may not be easy but it’s not going to take a miracle either.
“I was more annoyed that he DID bunt Gardner in the first.”
“Amen brother! No reason for that at that stage of the game.”
Get used to it bro. That’s Gardner’s game good or bad.
He bunts in the first but not the 9???
I’m an optimistic person but the evidence shows that this team usually plays better in the second half. Maybe its foolish to believe with certainty that the Yankees will make the playoffs (thats me). But its equally foolish to say with certainty that the Yanks will not make the playoffs and that its time to trade everyone. Like ray just say, its not going take a miracle to make the playoffs.
“Get used to it bro. That’s Gardner’s game good or bad.”
It doesn’t matter who was at the plate (unless its a pitcher), the bunt shouldn’t have been called for there. Thats on Girardi, not Gardner.
TL:
Gardner wasn’t bunting for a hit there, he was under orders. Just thought the timing of the order was bad.
Patrick - FINALLY. The bunt in the first inning was about the stupidest move a manager can make. A fast runner on second - already in scoring position, nobody out, a guy you chose to bat #2 is up. It’s like Girardi has never seen a baseball game before. I’ve defended him a lot (not here) but jeez. I can’t do it anymore.
I agree it’s on Girardi but he’s in love with Brent’s speed. It’s if he thinks he’s going to beat out a sac bunt.
IMO the first inning bunt was a worst case scenario, it’s a sac bunt. if that ball dies half a second sooner, he has his first major league base hit and a lot of pressure off his shoulders…
i wouldn’t get to nit-picky on that one…
Yes but calling for a sac bunt in the first inning after a leadoff double is a dumb move. The Rangers knew it was coming so it was very likely Gardner would be thrown out. I wouldn’t mind if Gardner tried to bunt for a basehit but it was a sacrifice bunt.
Lets call it what it is. Girardi is a bad in game manager.
I think Cashmans biggest weakness has been being cheap at the worst times. I like Cashman and I think he is right for the team, but I dont get being cheap. If you are going to have a 200 million dollar payroll you cannot be cheap on key parts to the team. You have to spend a couple million on middle relief, there is no excuse not to. How much better would bullpen be with Ron Mahay and Scott Linebrink in it? I know bullpen is fical position and changes every year but a 200 million dollar roster should have a good lefty in it. It just has to.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
It would be one thing if constantly shuffling the lineup was working …
“Non-save situations” needs to be further refined.
Isn’t it true that Mo is better when the Yanks have a lead of more than three runs than he is when the game is tied? Isn’t the issue really how Mo does in tie games, as opposed to all “non-save situations”?
This isn’t just a 2008 problem. Mo has been less than pedestrian in tie games for years now. This is my perception because I’ve never seen the numbers, but I’m willing to bet they are poor going back four or 5 years.
middle relief is NOT why the Yankees are playing poorly.
Tie games are where he gives up the runs and losses, no? Isn’t he 0 and 3 in 3 tie games?
Girardi is supposed to be a numbers guy so why does he play by the book with the bullpen? I knew Mo would give up a run last night, it just seems he isnt as sharp this yr in non-save situations (and a lot in his career.) Maybe use Farnsworth before Mo? I dont know who else would they really have other than Mo but he clearly isnt doing well in tie games. His Baseball Prospectus must have shown that.
If he is going to play by the books he has to BUNT, i am still upset over this. I was yelling it from the righfield upper deck last night. this isnt a 2nd guess its a 1st guess. Its Baseball 101 bunt with your 9 hitter down 1 in the 9th. The way Girardi plays is sometimes confuses me.
http://newyorkyankeesnews.com/maelias33/weblog/
Give it up, Pete. Mo has been lucky in save situations, and a little unlucky (for him) in non-save situations. All that’s different is the hits (and HR) allowed. Stop making a story out of nothing. Nobody - NOBODY - allows only one hit every 3 innings. His numbers will still be excellent, but they are going to regress.
It’s just random that he’s getting hit harder in non-save situations.
Matt maybe you should be the Mgr. of the Yanks, since you know everything. Second guessing the insertion of the best reliever ever. Ask your mom for permission to apply for the job
I am not 2nd guessing it it was probably the right move, all I am saying is that if Girardi is going to play by the #’s then using Rivera in that situation wasnt the right play. And I knew he would give up a run. But in that case he would never pitch in a home game tied after 8 innings. Girardi cant say he is playing by the #’s and not bunting bc the team doesnt hit with RISP and then use Rivera even though his #’s are bad in tie games, its not consistent.
I think we’re learning just what type of manager Girardi and for me there have been some questionable decisions made.
As far as the money goes - these are not George’s Yankees, these appear to be Hal’s Yankees. Hank may want to win but does Hal care as much? I don’t know.
Yankee Stadium is a tough stage to open on and these kids are really young. Many veteran pitchers (including Roger Clemens) had a difficult time adjusting to Broadway how did they think they could do this with a 21 yr. old, 22 yr. old, and a 23 yr. old at the same time. It was (and is) unrealistic to think that 2 or 3 rookie pitchers would all succeed to the level expected/required in the same year especially at Yankee Stadium. It is hard enough to bring up more than 1 rookie position player at a time but pitching is something else. When they brought up Andy they had a bench of veterans, the same with Chien-Ming.
If they had another veteran pitcher or been willing to pay for someone decent - not great, but decent - while they slowly brought up the kids it would have gone a lot smoother. It pains me to say this but this is where bringing in Bartolo Colon showed me that the Red Sox did a better, smarter job with their kids.
So, is it a money issue or a poor judgment issue - or both? Whatever it is, as much as everyone loves Joba we have to admit he too is struggling; it is not fair to the kids, their teammates, or the fans who have come to expect more from the Steinbrenner family.
Joba will be great but there will be more times where he goes deep into games and then struggles to get a feel. So many people seem to forget that he only made 1 start last year for AAA.
Putting the closer in a tie game in the top of the ninth at home is usually the right move. After that point there are no save situations so its smart to use your best reliever. I guess it would depend on what part of the order is coming to bat. I have no problem with Girardi bringing Mo in there.
“Putting the closer in a tie game in the top of the ninth at home is usually the right move.”
True, but you must learn from experience. If your closer shows time and time again that something is just not right when he comes into a tie game, you look for another route.
“True, but you must learn from experience. If your closer shows time and time again that something is just not right when he comes into a tie game, you look for another route.”
You brought it up. What other options do you suggest? Krazy Kyle? I would rather get beat by small ball any day than the long ball.
“True, but you must learn from experience. If your closer shows time and time again that something is just not right when he comes into a tie game, you look for another route.”
This is some of the worst second-guessing I have ever seen.
Mo does not pitch badly in tie games. He does not have a rare mental disorder that renders him unable to pitch in tie games. There is no “time and time again” track record that Girardi should have known about before putting Mo in.
I suppose Girardi should have put in Farnsworth instead? How would that have gone over if Farnsworth allowed one of his many solo HRs?
There are obviously a few people out there wanting to rip into Girardi, and he is fair game with the errors that he has made. However, to suggest that bringing in a gentleman by the name of Mariano Rivera is a bad move in a tied game (and in the 9th) is a little too much.
Beating on Melky is understandable, but please be aware of who you are talking about. If anyone really would of brought in Kyle in the 9th you would be sent straight to the corner of the class… It’s just unfortunate that Girardi was already in the corner waiting for you!.
Mo didnt lose that game. The Yanks lack of hitting with RISP combined with Posada’s arm did. Period.
that spreadsheet shows 3 things…….
1) Only the Abreu, Justice and Boone trades have had any real positive results…..
2) Brian Cashman makes some stupid damn moves.
3) Karim Garcia! lol
“Keep in mind that we’re talking about a grand total of 4 runs here.”
EXACTLY. All that needs to be said, really. This whole topic is ridiculous.
Does Sheffield count as a Cashman signing? Didn’t he negotiate directly with the bossman on that one?
“July 2nd, 2008 at 11:03 am
sign Bonds or Sosa.
We need a bat, pronto.”
What on God’s green earth makes you think Sosa would be the guy to help this offense out?
“Putting the closer in a tie game in the top of the ninth at home is usually the right move.”
Jimbo wrote, on July 2nd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
“True, but you must learn from experience. If your closer shows time and time again that something is just not right when he comes into a tie game, you look for another route.”
This might be the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read on this blog. And that’s saying a lot.
“that spreadsheet shows 3 things…….
1) Only the Abreu, Justice and Boone trades have had any real positive results…..”
Sure, you’re right, because we certainly haven’t gotten any production out of the following trades either:
Chuck Knoblauch
Roger Clemens
Jim Leyritz
Luis Sojo
Enrique Wilson
Robin Ventura
Ruben Sierra
Alex Rodriguez and cash
Shawn Chacon
Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle
“True, but you must learn from experience. If your closer shows time and time again that something is just not right when he comes into a tie game, you look for another route.”
“This might be the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read on this blog. And that’s saying a lot.”
I second that. Wow.
Chris NY, don’t forget about Molina either. Not a game-changing player, but a useful backup who we got for an insignificant pitching prospect.
Cashman makes mistakes, but these sweeping criticisms about him are absurd. His trade history isn’t flawless (the Weaver and RJ deals come to mind) but he has pulled off some tremendous deals (Clemens, ARod, Abreu, Justice, even Irabu for Westbrook and Lilly), as well as plenty of less noticeable deals for serviceable players (like Molina) and has avoided getting burned. He has never been on the losing end of a trade like Pierzynski for Nathan, Liriano and Bonser, or half a season of Colon for Sizemore and Cliff Lee. He avoided a debacle last season by saying no thanks to Gagne.
I have a feeling Cashman will pleasantly surprise a lot of people this season with a trade or two. It’s how he works.
Chris NY:
>
If the standard you measure the yankees by is success in the post-season, it’s been a mixed bag.
Some of those deals made a big difference–Clemens, Knoblauch, Justice–others, not so much.
A-Rod’s great and I’m happy the yanks have him. But, as for the other deals, they weren’t necessarily bad; they just didn’t make much difference in turning a 2nd place team into a champion.
I don’t hate Cashman, and don’t know who, until this past year, had actual control over things in the Yanks’ front office, but it’s hard to judge him a success as yanks’ GM.
As of now, the Yanks still look a bit old, a bit slow, still need a guy besides A-Rod who can supply some power from the right side, and haven’t had a reliable LH reliever since Mike Stanton. Most important, they’ve been also-rans for years, now.
This is all Melky’s fault.
“Blame Melky,” by the way, is the new “blame A-Rod.”
This save/non-save thing is pretty funky. You’d think that someone who’s been the best closer for over a decade woiuld be beyond this sort of mental trick, which is why I think this is more a statistical anomaly than anything else.
I think the save/no save thing is goofy, too. But here’s one thought… maybe the difference is the hitters. They are under much less pressure in tie games than they are when their team is down to its final one, two or three outs. Maybe that drop in pressure helps them? Might be the case.
I’ve been asking for the same things for this team since I started posting here more than a month ago. A RH power hitter, ideally one who can play RF or 1B and a lefty reliever. Not sure what they Yanks have to offer at this stage… Cabrera’s value is dropping like a rock, Horne might be hurt, Hughes is, Kennedy was…. if the “A” list of prospects (Robertson, Melancon, A. Jax, Montero, Hughes, Betances, Tabata) is off limits the Yankees won’t be making any deals.
If you don’t see the pattern - going back several years - of Mo blowing tie games, then you’re either not watching or you’re purposely burying your head in the sand.
Veras, who pitched an inning on Monday and didn’t throw on Sunday, was the better choice.
Mo blew the game, and anyone who has been watching saw it coming. No second guessing needed.