July 5th Stat of the Day
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- July
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When Darrell Rasner drew two walks against the Mets on June 29, he became the first pitcher to walk in the first two plate appearances of his career since Mickey Scott of the Orioles in 1972.
Meanwhile Robinson Cano has walked once in his last 69 plate appearances.
(I’m not going to do a Stat of the Day every day. But this was too good not to pass along)
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on Saturday, July 5th, 2008 at 12:25 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
interesting stuff, pete!
If only he could pitch too…
Who cares. The Yankees are down in the dumps. I could care less about Rasner and some obscure record no one gives an *excrement* about.
You could care less? How much less? Your post is unclear.
I could care lesser than I care about aliens coming and taking over my brain in the next 20 seconds. Does that clarify things for ya, Nick?
Not really, because you made an unquantified comparison. Without further information, it’s hard to estimate how much care you give to the threat of alien brain takeover.
Lol Nick!
We will win the Wild Card because of Robinson Cano.
I thought that my estimation of caring of an alien brain takeover was self apparent. I apologize. It is actually quiet low. Therefore, so is my caring about the statistic in question. I hope that clears things up.
I have to emphasize something that too many Yankee fans don’t take into account when they trash this team because they’re “too old†or ridicule the job by Cashman.
Well, guess what? It’s the demanding fans and a demanding owner who deserves a lot of the blame.
This team neglected the draft and player development for way too long and relied too much on safety net FAs and quick fixes.
Here’s some examples of homegrown talents who are playing for AL East rivals and the season they were drafted.
TB:
Carl Crawford (1999), James Shields (2000), Jonny Ghomes (2001), Jason Hammel (2002), B.J. Upton (2002), Delmon Young (2003), Andy Sonnanstine (2004), Evan Longoria (2006), and David Price (2007).
BOS:
Kevin Youkilis (2001), Jon Lester (2002), Jonathan Papelbon (2003), Dustin L. Pedroia (2004), Clay Buchholz (2005), Craig Hansen (2005), Jacoby Ellsbury (2005), and Justin D Masterson (2006)
What does all this mean?
It means that there are a ton of young homegrown talents who are playing huge roles for the Yanks’ rivals while the Bombers continue to age. The Boss really blew it with his decision to put incompetent people in charge of the draft for so many years, specifically from 1998 to 2004, and neglected an area that should have been one of his top priorities.
You can blame Cashman for a lot of things (and several are warranted), but neglecting the farm for so many years while their AL East opponents continued to replenish their systems is not one of them. Cashman had absolutely no influence on the draft from 1998 to 2004. Those decisions were made by the Tampa Mafia.
Frankly, of all of Cashman’s decisions during his tenure as GM – giving Damon Oppenheimer complete control of the draft in 2005 ranks right at the top of that list. It’s a decision that will prove to be a better one down the road than the acquisition of Alex Rodriguez.
But the good thing is that the Yankee drafts since 2005 have been very good and this team will be in good shape if Oppenheimer continues in his current post for the next several years.
The only bad thing is that it’s not going to happen overnight. Because of the horrible blunders by The Boss himself demanding a new toy every offseason – the farm greatly suffered as a result.
Here’s a sample of the Oppenheimer replenishing that I’m talking about:
2005: JB Cox, Brett Gardner, Austin Jackson, and Alan Horne.
2006: Ian Kennedy, Joba Chamberlain, David Robertson, Mark Melancon, Dellin Betances, Zachary T McAllister, and Daniel T McCutchen.
2007: Andrew Brackman, Austin Romine, Ryan Pope, and Brad Suttle.
2008: Garret Cole, Jeremy Bleich, Joseph Bittle, Chris Smith, and Patrick Venditte
The neglect of the farm for so many years is not on Cashman – that’s on The Boss.
John Hay, what I think Nick in SF is getting at is that you used the expression incorrectly like many people do. You meant that you COULDN’T care less.
For example used correctly:
Brian Cashman: “Kei Igawa got hit by a car, he’ll be out for the season”
Joe Girardi: “I couldn’t care less, he was only our 5th best starter anyway”
Used incorrectly:
Brian Cashman: “You’re fired!”
Joe Girardi: “I could care less, this team is going nowhere anyway and I hate managing”
Do you see the difference now? Let’s use it correctly.
LOL…
while they were replenishing their farm system, our team was winning championships and reaching the world series.
Nice DFox!
“I thought that my estimation of caring of an alien brain takeover was self apparent.”
You would have gotten major bonus points if you’d used the phrase “self-evident” instead of “self apparent” — this is the 4th of July, after all, and it’s in the Declaration of Independence.
The real irony would be if the aliens had taken over your brain 20 seconds BEFORE your post; perhaps more worry would be warranted.
‘Meanwhile Robinson Cano has walked once in his last 69 plate appearances.’
Its hard to walk when you swing at the 1st pitch every freaking time.
Guiseppe Franco,
This is what I’ve been trying to explain for the past several days, especially since everyone is so keen on bashing the Yankees farmhands for not being productive this season.
Most of the homegrown Red Sox players who have been productive for them this season were drafted in the period you discussed – the time before Cashman had any authority on the draft, and Oppenheimer was personally placed in charge.
Meanwhile, many of the Yankee farmhands haven’t gone through their full developmental cycle yet, either because they’ve only been drafted in the last two or three years, or because they’ve had bouts with injuries (Hughes). This doesn’t make them bad players, it doesn’t make them overhyped, and it doesn’t mean they’ll never be productive major leaguers. It just means we, as fans, need to be patient, because when the reloading process pays off, it’s going to be all the more fun to watch.
Just ask Tampa fans.
I hate your commercials but Guiseppe Franco your last post is 100 % correct.
YOU SHOULD HAVE A STAT OF THE DAY EVERY DAY!!! I LOVE THOSE RANDOM STATS YOU PULL UP.
ok, i know you work hard, maybe not every day….
but more often
Speaking of Cano, Jorge’s at-bats are starting to look like Robbie’s…
Yeah Dee but the only difference is at this point you feel like Cano has a much better chance of getting a hit than Posada.
“Here’s a sample of the Oppenheimer replenishing that I’m talking about:”
“2005: JB Cox, Brett Gardner, Austin Jackson, and Alan Horne.
2006: Ian Kennedy, Joba Chamberlain, David Robertson, Mark Melancon, Dellin Betances, Zachary T McAllister, and Daniel T McCutchen.
2007: Andrew Brackman, Austin Romine, Ryan Pope, and Brad Suttle.
2008: Garret Cole, Jeremy Bleich, Joseph Bittle, Chris Smith, and Patrick Venditte
The neglect of the farm for so many years is not on Cashman – that’s on The Boss.”
Where is the replenishing exactly? After Joba, who is the real deal?
I think most Yankee fans want the young homegrown talent to stay and become future stars…But sometimes you have to make moves to replenish the big league club.
Holding on to prospects forever can be just as damaging as trading them to soon. When their trade value is at peak you have to take advantage.
Knowing which kids to hold on to and which ones to trade is the real art of being a great GM if one exists out side of Beane all though Epstein is looking pretty smart right now.
All this being said…I still wonder why the rash of injuries through out this organization…Bad medical reports? bad conditioning? This has to fall on Cashman as well.
No way this is all bad luck…These so called future stars can’t stay on the field. They can’t fulfill their promise from the DL…
I wanted to highlight specifically the head start our competition has had and still the number of players that have reached the ML level when Cashman/Oppenheimer stepped into this rebuilding on the fly philosophy in 2005 and contributed favors us. And lets not forget the IFA youth signings like Montero, Tabata, Almonte, DeLeon, Sosa, Arodys, Jairo, Miranda. This is going to be a key in slosing the gap vs our competition.
*closing the gap vs our competition in the future.
yeah Damons injury is Cashmans fault.. really people just blog to omplain they have no solutions no knowledge just like to bitch..
Masterson is proven already to yankee fans but Hughes is’t even though Hughes has ore starts in the big show and more wins!!!!!!!
yeah the sux are homegrown all 6 of the players…yeah manny,drew, ortiz, lugo, varitek, and again about 14 other guys are trades or FA….
pedroia and ellsbury are homegrwon, before today ellsbury was hitting in the 260 range…
yeah hughes will never be any good just like pelfrey or volquez….
the talent evaluators on this site are helen keller like….
Dfox, whenever I see Robbie’s at-bats he just looks like such a natural, it’s like he learned how to swing before he learned how to walk…and then BAM he swings at complete junk. I get so mad at him for wasting his natural talent. Jorge seems to be losing his plate discipline lately and starting to swing and miss a lot. I wonder if he needs his eyes checked too a la Phil Hughes, b/c as a catcher he should be reading pitches much better than that.
More sad news from the NY Post:
Madonna has driven us ALL to drink
Yes so many people pointed out our future.But how many are hurt this year and had Tommy John rehab.If Cashman can’t get good Free Agents it will take over 5 years to win or more.And we don’t know if they are gonna be major league good.
If Cash can get a 200 inning good pitcher that will help us win now and gve Joba time to work on he’s stuff.We are not the Rays.
If Cash can get a 200 inning good pitcher that will help us win now and gve Joba time to work on he’s stuff.We are not the Rays.
Keep asking for quick fixes and instead of fixing this thing in 2-3 yrs. it’ll be 5-7 yrs. instead.
John Hay — the expression is “I couldn’t care less” NOT “I could care less” — I think that’s why Nick’s having some fun with you. A lot of people get it wrong.
“I think most Yankee fans want the young homegrown talent to stay and become future stars…But sometimes you have to make moves to replenish the big league club.
Holding on to prospects forever can be just as damaging as trading them to soon. When their trade value is at peak you have to take advantage.”
I believe you -totally- missed his point.
The Yankees are 3-5 years behind the competition when it comes to player development. THERE IS NO QUICK FIX. Time is the only fix.
Yeah, Cashman could follow my ‘Overreactionary Yankee Fan’ posts, and deal Hughes+Kennedy+Cano+Melky+Horne+Melancon+Jackson+Tabata+Cox+Robertson+Montero, and net, say, some combo of CC, Harden, Sheets, Burnett, Holliday, Teixiera, and go into ‘WIN IN 2008 AT ALL COSTS WE NEED TO CLOSE THE HOUSE THAT RUTH BUILT WITH A WIN’, but, uh, then what kinda future do you have? Pirates circa 2000, IMO. That’s not good.
“while they were replenishing their farm system, our team was winning championships and reaching the world series.”
And replenishing the farm system is not mutually exclusive from winning championships and reaching the world series.
plenty of those minor leaguers you listed have potential to be major league stars and haven’t come up to the majors yet.
The Yankees are 3-5 years behind the competition when it comes to player development. THERE IS NO QUICK FIX. Time is the only fix.
That is exactly my point.
TB and BOS had a big head start on developing the farm and the Yanks are now paying for that neglect because those teams are much younger and in better shape to [re]build from within for years to come.
Yes, while the Yanks were winning championships – TB and BOS were always behind in the standings.
But they continued to draft talent and replenish the farm while the Yanks neglected it and looked at the alternative route and signed FAs instead.
It’s going to take a few years of very good drafts before they catch up to the competition.
That’s not on Cashman – that’s on The Boss.
It is extremely difficult to maintain a dynasty in any sport. The Yankees have done a much better job than most organizations at that.
I personally don’t see the Yankees being sellers at trade deadline — its just not part of our DNA. You can argue that the Florida Marlin approach of going for it all and then selling and rebuilding is the right one but its never been the New York way (or the way of any big city team).
Cashman tries to have it both ways — staying very competitive at the MLB level while rebuilding the farm system. That’s an extremely difficult thing to do. That’s not his decision though, that’s just part of the job description.
I’d like to see the management make the decision that even if the team makes the playoffs, they probably aren’t strong enough in pitching to advance far thus its not a bad idea to put less emphasis on making the playoffs and at least consider make trades to rebuild. Its not going to happen though. Most of the fans don’t want it to happen so I have a hard time being too critical of Cashman for not trading away our veterans. In addition,I really have a hard time believing that given their ages, health (in some cases), and salaries that we’d get much back for Damon, Abreu, Mussina, Pettite or Giambi. I want to rebuild but I’m not sure I really want to subsidize another team’s championship run if I don’t think its going to really yeild us great talent in return.
I think we are witnessing the team that we’ll have for better or for worse most of the year. We’ll get some guys back from the DL at some point that might help a playoff push — Hughes, Wang, Bruney, Matsui. And hopefully we’ll have a few more young guys contributing. I don’t see any major trade happening or making enough of a difference if it does.
Taking a long view, I’m more curious of what the team does with Giambi and Abreu in the off-season. Obviously, we don’t want to enter into a long-term extension with either. And we should have a goal of getting younger and more flexible in our roster. They are the major guys up for renewal though and I don’t see how we don’t want to bring either back for at least one more year. Which I guess just underpins that this is going to be a multi-year rebuilding process. We are going to have to be patient as fans.
Stuart Little, just just described yourself, perfectly.
***you just described***
I’m not at all against being “sellers” before the deadline, but I’m not so sure the remaining contenders are going to want what the Yanks are selling.
Truthfully, Giambi, Damon, Matsui, and Abreu don’t have a lot of trade value.
Moose may or may not have trade value. Hawkins and Farnsworth absolutely have no trade value.
The one guy who may bring the most in return is Andy Pettitte. No doubt he could help make a difference with some team.
The Yanks could use a similar tactic that Oakland did with Rickey Henderson when he was traded to Toronto at the deadline back in the early 90s only to re-sign with Oakland after the season was over.
The odds of this happening are pretty slim, but it’s not a bad idea.
No matter what happens, I would re-sign Pettitte for one more season because he wants to pitch in the new yard anyways and he’s still one of the most reliable starters they’ve got.
Any chance we give Borowski a chance? Or is he going to suck forever?
Right now I would say our offense is about equal to the Detroit offense and the same about the pitching staff. If they can go on a huge run, I seriously believe we can, and will.
By my count, the only real players worth anything that we traded away are Mike Lowell and Jake Westbrook.
That just shows you that prospects don’t always equal success.
I have a ’stat of the day’ for you about Rasner Pete.
His ERA is approaching 5.
He’s 1-7 after starting out 3-0.
He has allowed 52 baserunners in 23.2 IP in his past 5 starts, giving him a WHIP of 2.24 for those games.
Oh, and our #5 starter is a guy named Sidney Ponson. I can’t imagine anyone thinking we don’t need a starter as our #1 priority right now. I’ll be surprised if Rasner makes his next start. If he does, its only because they have no one else to go to.
I know it was worth it – but we did trade away Alfonso Soriano. Ted Lilly wouldn’t look too bad in a NYY uniform right now and he would have given us a discount to come back. Marcus Thames is a good player too.
Overall your point is well taken though – I didn’t see any historic errors in the list of Cashman’s deals.
BTW – getting anything back for Hideki Irabu must constitute a minor miracle
Slugs usually don’t fetch much in the market.
guiseppe franco has the post most worthy or being copy and pasted and used when know nothings start to blame the scapegoat of the day.
We were spoiled by the dynasty and are now paying for it. It’ll take some time to rebuild the minors, and time to see the fruits of it.
Even when folks claim to understand that they still show themselves to be impatient and reactionary.
Look at Edwar, he had some rough spots since he’s been up here, but his 3 era and whiffing Manny are the rewards you reap when you are patient.
Edwar was released by the Angels and then bounced around in the IL, until we signed him.
Right now Ross O. is low on everyone’s totem pole, but this guy is and will be good. He just needs find a well defined role and do some work and i’m absolutely sure he will pay dividends.
IPK is being treated round these parts like Carl Pavano, he was drafted high, outperformed at all his levels on the way to the big club. So now after 37 ?! innings he is washed up and not worth a damn?
I sure am glad that you all are internet keyboard scouts, because Edinson Volquez would have been banished before he even began if it was up to you guys.
and I think Jason Lane will get the call. Justin Christian is too similar to Gardner in play to have a duplicate. Lane= RH pop potentially, OF and 1B.
A big bite of a reality sandwich from Johnny Damon – quoted in Kepner’s blog:
““We’ve got an uphill battle going against two very good teams, teams that are possibly more athletic than us,†Damon said. “Tampa Bay’s more athletic than anybody out there. We have an uphill battle. When we lost Matsui, you’re talking about one and a half runs a game that he probably can bring to the table. Now me, it’s about the same.â€
I don’t know if Hideki Matsui and Damon are really worth 1.5 runs each, per game, to the offense. But it’s interesting that Damon sees it that way, and even more notable that he conceded the point about the athleticism of the first-place Rays.
The Yankees have decorated stars, but too often they seem limited in what they can do. Again, there are too many designated hitters on the team, and the players with young legs – Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano – have been major disappointments this season.”
if the yankees don’t make the playoffs after the first full year of the hank and hal show they are going to look to place the blame somewhere else.
hank especially doesn’t appear to like to be placed in ridicule.
well, the yankees are a joke so far.
and this is on hank’s watch.
cashman will be the fall guy .
he’s history if the yankees implode and don’t make the playoffs.
… on another note, people complain about the” tampa mafia”, but funny how with them having influence the yankees make the playoffs for about 11 years in a row and two years after they’re gone, the yankees don’t make the playoffs.
did i just say” don’t make the playoffs”?
i guess i did.
it is, however, hard picturing this team as presently constructed making the playoffs this year.
“while they were replenishing their farm system, our team was winning championships and reaching the world series.”
———————————————————–
Yes…. and the core of those teams was a way above average SS (Jeter), 2 borderline HOFers playing middle positions (Bernie in CF, Jorge at C), a #2 starter (Pettitte) and the best closer in the history of the game. ALL were products of the Yankee Farm. And all were cheap for many years, which allowed for expensive FAs to be signed and still have a controllable payroll. Shane Spencer, while never amounting to anything, won a number of games for us. Soriano played a role, and was flipped for ARod. Nick the Stick was great and part of a key trade. But for a 10 year period, we had very, very little help from the farm.
Do you also need some impact FAs? Sure, and with a lot of cheap youth, you can both afford to pay for and trade for these guys. However, since the ‘Big 5′ were in play by 1996, what kids helped out over the next 10 years? VERY few. But we spent money on FAs, our 1996 kids developed into great players, and we won.
But it is now 12 years later, Bernie is retired, Pettitte may be in his last year, and Mo, Po and Jeter are ‘older guys’. So now we are an old team. Even though the Dynasty was built on a foundation of youth, George ignored (and trashed) the farm, therefore hurting our future chances.
The Big 5 were more to do with Gene Michael and Buck Showalter. Big George, wanting markee names and instant gratification, didn’t have a clue. So Stick and Buck built the Dynasty and George rode it out.
But it is over now.
Had Cashman had full controll this whole time, we might have had more Canos. Jobas and other talents kids to continue the winning cycle, and keep us out of the cycle of trading/buying FAs out of desparation.
You don’t win with all kids, unless like TB, you get a decade of 1st round picks. You win with a combination of youth and carefully selected talent.
The truth is with Yankee Money, had the Farm in 1996 gotten the attention it is getting now, the dynasty would still be in full force. And that is what Cashman is trying to do. Build up a foundation of kids, keep this cycle going, and augment with the CCs, Tex’s, and othe FAs of the world. But it starts with the kids.
But it will take a few years. If the current ‘oldsters’ played to their abiltiy and hit with RISP, we may even stay in the PS during this ‘transition’. However, Cashman can’t hit for Cano and Melky, can’t help ARod’s and Giambi’s poor RISP numbers, can’t give Jeter more range, or stop random injuries that happen to all teams.
We will probably miss the PS this year, equally because of bad RISP and injuries. Even with average pitching, had our offense NOT been 200 RS behind last season, we would be in the hunt. Had all of Rasners starts been by Wang, we would be at/near the top.
But regardless of how this team plays TODAY, Cashman understands that YOU MUST HAVE A FOUNDATION OF YOUNG, CHEAP, TALENTED PLAYERS in order to have a self sustaining, contending team.
Cashman is building the next dynasty. It won’t happen overnight. We won’t know if it’s Phil or Melancon, Ajax or Tabata, IPK or Sanchez, or Montero, or some names we haven’t heard yet, for a while. So all you guys sitting in your living rooms, pulling your puds and criticizing Cashman, may just have to wait a few years.
There was an article on the Fox Sports site that said that other GMs feel that Cashman overvalues his prospects. And they’re right. He does.
We’ve got a bunch of “Untouchables” in the minors that he wouldn’t trade for Santana that are just gathering dust. Alan Horne is one more injury away from being a complete wash out. He had the TJ surgery, then he came back pitched one good season in AA ball and was marked untouchable. He started this season with a bicep injury and now he’s on the DL with a dead arm.
Part of being a good GM is rotating your stock. Billy Beane is a pro at it. He trades away prospects that he doesn’t feel are going to mature, gets back even more prospects or major league talent that will net him draft picks. Tabata and Horne type players could have gotten us a young major league pitcher or hitter. I’m not just saying Santana, we could have focused on a young player on a smaller market team approaching arbitration. Kind of like what Boston did with Beckett.
If you just sit on prospects til they’re 30 and worth nothing, you end up with a bunch of Andy Phillips, Jeff Karstens, Kevin Thompson type players who aren’t worth squat.
“… on another note, people complain about the†tampa mafiaâ€, but funny how with them having influence the yankees make the playoffs for about 11 years in a row and two years after they’re gone, the yankees don’t make the playoffs.”
This is the type of shortsighted BS that gives presidents ‘credit’ for the economy – correlation is not equal to causation.
“I’m not just saying Santana, we could have focused on a young player on a smaller market team approaching arbitration. Kind of like what Boston did with Beckett.”
Who?
Who?
There -was- no ‘Beckett’ on the market.
It’s nice to invent trades the Yankees should make. But there actually needs to be, um, a real possibility of said trade.
OYF -
Well said. Thanks.
” Cashman understands that YOU MUST HAVE A FOUNDATION OF YOUNG, CHEAP, TALENTED PLAYERS in order to have a self sustaining, contending team.”
since even on this blog almost everyone understands this , how does this realization alone qualify cashman to be the yankee gm?
it seems like he’s got to bring a whole lot more to the table than one simplistic no brainer that even casual fans realize in these times of revenue sharing.
“GMs feel that Cashman overvalues his prospects. And they’re right. He does.”
Not true. It is not a matter of overvalueing them. If we have 5 TOP prosects, 2 may become MLB impact players. But WHICH 2? It’s impossibel to know. The only way to know is to hold on to all of them and let them develope.
Remember the possibility of trading Joba for Gagne? Good deal for us? Well, it looks like NOT, but we still need time to really know.
How about Phil, Melky, IPK, ++ for Santana. Good deal for us? Well, it doesn’t look bad NOW, but we still need time to really know.
Here’s some names. Jeter, Bernie, Pettitte, Mo, Posada.
All farm hands. All CHEAP for years. All long careers with the Yankees. All part of the Dynasty.
Maybe we have 5 more JUST like them on the Farm. But which 5? Bernie looked like crap his first 3 years. Mo was a failed starter. Hell, even Mickey Mantle had such a bad first year, he wanted to quit. Do YOU want to try and pick the ‘next 5′ and trade the rest? Think you can do that? Think Cashman can? Think anyone can?
It’s a guessing game. But the Yankees need young, cheap players FAR MORE BADLY then any other team in MLB. So yes, for a while, Cashman will be conservative about trading away talented kids, because he/we DON’T KNOW which ones are the next Mariano/Jeter/Bernie/Posada/Pettitte (or mike Lowell, or a few other studs we traded as kids).
Tell me, who is more valuable to a team, it’s budget and it’s future:
1) Joba, who will be cheap for 5 years and may have a 12 year career for the Yankees.
2) Santana, who may have 2 great years, two good years, and 2 so-so years, AT A COST OF $23,000,000 per year?
Look at Josh Hamilton. Absolute stud. Drug adict out of baseball. Absolute stud again. YOU JUST DON’T KNOW.
And it is not easy to build a farm when you have had the LAST PICKS 12 years in a row.
Now… once we have the next ‘Big 5′, cheap, young and talented kids as a foundation, then we can be a little more cavalier, and take a chance on the next Santana.
The Mets met with disaster last year. They are DESPARATE to win. Beltran. Delgato. Pedro. Now Santana. Are they going to win now? Want to be in their shoes? They could be dead for the next 5 to 10 years. And if/when they do win, it will be in big part to Wright and Reyes and Maine, their kids.
If you want the Yankees to MAYBE win 1 or 2 WSs in the next 10 years, you can take a chance and get your Santanas.
If you want ANOTHER DYNASTY, you must first build a foundation of cheap, talentd youth from the farm and international signings.
Cashman knows this.
We ALL SHOULD know it, because we saw it in 1996.
Great post OldYanksFans
Have had a chance to see the Yankees the last two days, and they’re certainly going through a bad stretch. Even the blown call with two outs in the ninth wasn’t enough to resurrect the Yankee Stadiun karma. I thought that the Sox were scuffling. Funny game ….
I’d like to make one point about rebuilding/reloading/change for change sake. One difference between the Sox and Yankees is that the Sox don’t live in constant fear of having their traded prospects succeed. When the Hanley Ramirez’s and David Murphys are productive, it simply validates the worth of the Sox’ prospects, and makes their future packages more attractive. Sometimes you get a Beckett, and sometimes a Gagne, but if you’re confident that you’ll replenish the farm system, you don’t get into the “paralysis by analysis” mode.
I think that the Yankees are still trying to figure out how to play with a relatively new toy – prospects. But I’m not sure that they know how to make them major league ready (they can draft them; can they coach ‘em up?), nor when to move them out. So Cashman’s holds on to everyone, utimately throwing them against the wall when a need arises, but not when the players’ development have been completed.
Randy 1 …… when Livan Hernandez beats the Sox in Fenway next week (probaly 9-7, with 7 innings of 12 hit ball), I’ll ackmowledge your genius. I think that you’re on to something.
“This is the type of shortsighted BS that gives presidents ‘credit’ for the economy – correlation is not equal to causation.”
correlation is also not equal to no causation.
…so cashman’s motto according to you should be,”correlation is not equal to causation”.
that comes in handy when very little he does seems to work.
I guess the camparisons to Rod Carew were a bit premature?
I guess the comparisons to Rod Carew were a bit premature?
“since even on this blog almost everyone understands this , how does this realization alone qualify cashman to be the yankee gm?”
——————————————————-
Obviously, you are not reading this blog everyday. How many people would have traded for Santana? How many have said dump Cano? Dump Melky? How many would gut the farm for CC?
“it seems like he’s got to bring a whole lot more to the table than one simplistic no brainer that even casual fans realize in these times of revenue sharing.”
———————————————————–
If it is a “simplistic no brainer”, why weren’t the Yankees doing it for 10 years, 1996-2006? Cashman is the General Manager. MANAGER. Not player. Not sooth-saying. Not fortune teller. He has only really been allowed to MANAGE for the last 3 years.
Have you been following the Yankees since George took over? Do you think just anyone can not only cut it in NY, but survive the 1980-2000 version of Steinbrenner? Gene Michael could, but doesn’t want to.
You want Cashman gone?
Great.
Now who is goning to step in and do a BETTER job of creating a cohesive environment to develop a winning team on a continuing basis?
Now there are 3 Steinbrenners, although George is basically out of it and the Steinettes appear to be easier to work with. And they want Cashman back. Why do you think that is?
“… on another note, people complain about the†tampa mafiaâ€, but funny how with them having influence the yankees make the playoffs for about 11 years in a row and two years after they’re gone, the yankees don’t make the playoffs.”
That is a very interesting observation.
I think the negative impact of thier decisions came to full bore in the last three years.
anyone who was a knicks fan in the late 90’s early 00’s will see the eerily similar parallels between jeter and ewing. its like watching ewing in his last years all over again
“I think the negative impact of thier decisions came to full bore in the last three years.”
Similar to the late 80’s – early 90’s Celtics w/ Bird, Parish, and McHale. They were hurt by the deaths of Bias and Reggie Lewis, but the organization allowed them to grow together then grow stagnant together.
Great post giusseppe and thats all well and good. I understand all that about giving up prospects and putting the Yanks in the same spot in years to come. However, they still have resources ($$$) to make some moves. They do have some dead weight and over rated prospects on the farm.
GM’s that say Cashman overvalues his prospects are ticked off because he won’t trade his better prospects to their teams for other teams’ failed “name” stars.
How many teams in baseball can survive ignoring FIVE years (2000-2005) of drafting players and not have it impact them?
We are seeing the effects of having a non-farm system for 5 years. There is a gap between the better Yankee prospects, who are in AA and A ball, and the major league team.
You don’t fill that in (as some fans desire) by trading the better prospects for older players. That’s what has gotten them in this predictament in the first place.
While some folks are on the “Rip Cashman” toot this morning, how many of you KNEW this offense would be on pace to score 200 less runs than last year on July 5?
How many of you KNEW the offense would be hitting under .250 w.RISP on July 5?
How many of you KNEW Jorge Posada would go down this season and basically be a non-factor?
How many of you KNEW Derek Jeter would show such a rapid decline as an offensive player.
How many of you KNEW Robinson Cano would be hitting .250 on July 5?
Are all of those things, which are happening right now, also Cashman’s fault? Do you not think that hasn’t been a factor in the teams poor play?
How many of you wannabe Yankee GM’s would have gone into the off-season and say, “I know my offense will stink this year so I have to do something about it”?
Nobody, not Brian Cashman, anybody connected with the Yankees or many (if any) Yankee fans would have predicted the offense would be this bad this season. Yet it is, and its the NUMBER ONE reason this team isn’t very good.
Most fans were freaked out about the bullpen. Yet, the bullpen has been very good this year. They even have some young guys (Veras, Ramirez,Robertson, with Melancon on the come) who look like keepers for next season.
Wang getting hurt really killed this team. Not only do you lose your best pitcher, you lose an inning eater and, because of injuries and ineffectiveness down below, you are left with guys like Ponson and Rasner to pick up the slack. Certainly not an ideal situation.
If folks want to get on Cashman, that’s fine by me. At least be accurate about it.
Spewing nonsense may work on other blogs. On here, too many good posters will call you on it. Just as they have in this thread.
SJ-
what do you think ends up happening with Jeter?
Brian…. good comment and true. But the Sox have been investing in their farms for years more then the Yankees. They have had more mature talent to trade, knowing that there is still more talent in their system. As I said above, in three years, we will be in a similar place. Most of our talent is in our lower levels. When we have kids on the field like Cano, Joba and hopefully 4 or 5 more, and talent at ALL levels of our farm, we will be a lot more brazen about our trades.
However, I will point out that the Hanley trade was about getting Beckett, and they were ‘forced’ to take Lowell and his salary as part of the deal. So far, 2006-2008,
Winshares Beckett: 38
Winshares Lowell: 51
Winshares Hanley: 68
Winshares Anibal: 12
So because Sanchez is injured and Lowell (not Beckett) was the real stud, this deal has worked for the Sox. But more importantly, they won in 2007 and might again.
But Hanley at ages 23-34 has posted an OPS+ 10 points higher then ARod at that age, and over those 2 year, has the same OPS+ as ARods career. So if this kid keeps his head on straight and doesn’t get injured, he might be a baseball God.
Everybody love an Ace, but guys like Bonds, ARod, Manny, Pujols and maybe Hanley, are far more valuable, in terms of WINS then the best pitcher.
I don’t know what’s going to happen with Jeter.
I know what should happen with him but I doubt anybody in the organization could convince him to do it.
He, like Robin Yount did at a similar stage of his career, should move to CF next season. IMO, he would be a great CF, it would save his legs, and (I think) revitalize him offensively.
Its also one of those “HOF-type” positions, which could buffer any ego hit he may feel about being moved off SS.
It won’t happen but, its a move that could help the Yankees, and Jeter, for many years to come if it did.
This is not just about his defense. Its about his overall game.
JMO but, I believe a move to CF (if he ever embraced it) would add years to his career and make him a much more productive all around player than we are seeing now.
a move to CF could get him to 4000 hits
Yeah all this warm and fuzzy its not Cashman fault is all well and good, but IMO, he is a man who never wants make a wrong move.I seems he want to holds on to his overrated prospects until they become farm hands long enough so we can forget about them and move on to the next round of overrated prospects. We have a ton of picthing in our system. Are all of them going to be in the rotation in 2010-2011. I really wonder what the GM from Oak would do with us. I am not saying gut the farm, but we have enough to go get another bat or a 4th or 5th starter and still have plenty left.
Old Yanks Fan …
Good points re” win shares. And in the Beckett trade, “throwin” Lowell was manna from heaven.
But my sense is that, in the post season, stud starting pitching is much more important than the play of position players. The win shares stat is based on 162 games, while 5 and 7 game series negate the law of averages.
Put another way, in a playoff series, if someone has to be injured, I’d rather have it be Lowell (or any other position player) than Beckett.
brian (red sox fan)
excuse my edginess. i get really cranky when the red sox are beating on the yankees. it’s something hardwired in me i think.
the thing with livan hernandez has taken on a life of it’s own on the blog because he really looks bad when you just look at basic stats, but he does something that cashman totally underestimates.
and that is he provides innings.
like wakefield with you guys. wakefied is way more important to the red sox pitching staff than just his era. stat heads look at livan hernandez and don’t see the intangibles of keeping the bullpen from getting overworked and overexposed.
cashman could of had hernandez last winter for a measly 5 million on a one year deal. but he liked kennedy at 400 thousand. the problem is between kennedy ,hughes, and the back up plan of rasner there are not enough innings pitched. the bullpen gets stretched on a regular basis.
when hernandez pitches the twins are now 13-6. 7 games over .500.
the yankees as a team are 3 games over .500.
cashman just doesn’t get the innings thing.
“like wakefield with you guys. wakefied is way more important to the red sox pitching staff than just his era. stat heads look at livan hernandez and don’t see the intangibles of keeping the bullpen from getting overworked and overexposed.”
Great point. Take a look at his last 7 starts. He pitched 50 innings, leaving only 13 (less than 2 innings per game) for the bullpen. Also helps that he occasionally goes on one of those rolls (sub 2.00 ERA in the aforementioned 7 starts).
You can’t deny the grotesque failure of the Tampa Mafia when it comes to player development and anyone who tries to is an imbecile. Let’s look at the players chosen in the first two rounds from 2000-04, shall we?
2000 David Parrish, Daniel Borrell, Jason Grove
2001 John Ford Griffin, Bronson Sardinha, Jon Skaggs
2002 Brandon Weeden
2003 Eric Duncan, Estee Harris
2004 Phil Hughes, Jeffrey Marquez, Jonathan Poterson,
Brett Smith
That’s 13 prime picks for one high level prospect. Pitiful!
Moving Jeter to CF would have been a brilliant move when ARod was first acquired. But the train has long left the station for that move.
Jeter could possibly perform acceptably on defense in CF. But, between learning a new position and his age, I think acceptable defense is all anyone could hope for, and he might not achieve that.
His offensive performance off of this year won’t cut it as a CF who’s not great defensively, and maybe not at all.
The PECOTA projections showed there was a pretty good chance Jeter’s offense would decline this year, so I’m tempted to think the reduced offensive performance is likely to be permanent.
However, between Jeter’s apparent improvement defensively and the lack of stellar AL shortstops, he still ranks at or near the top of AL shortstops this year. Plus, you move Jeter to CF, what are you going to do in 2010 when (and if) AJax is ready?
Jeter’s far from our worst problem. I’d try to start fixing elsewhere.
sj -
agree on jeter. it also would make it easier in his really late career to move to left from center as he loses his quickness.
“There -was- no ‘Beckett’ on the market.”
Beckett was never “on the market”. Boston was smart enough to make a phone call. We jumped in after Boston had already started the talks and they asked for Wang and Eric Duncan. Eric Duncan obviously was too good to give up….
Jeter’s offense won’t cut it in left field.
“I don’t know what’s going to happen with Jeter.
I know what should happen with him but I doubt anybody in the organization could convince him to do it.”
If he continues to be bad and the yanks do not make the playoffs, he will be told by Cash (if he is around, if not the new guy who will not have nay alligence to Jeter) and Hank that he is moved to another position. If he bitches and moans, fans will trun on him.
SJ44 -
Depending on how this year ends up, perhaps Jeter will be able to be coaxed into trying something different 9i.e., changing positions). As much pride as there is in being the SS, Jeter really has been all about winning. If he could be shown it would help overall, maybe he does it. But then, you need a new SS and at this point, I don’t think you move ARod back there. It is an interesting situation, though.
Randy l -
I always had the knee-jerk reaction to your Livan Hernandez “fixation,” of what would have become of Kennedy? Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, if, in fact, Livan could have been had for one year only, Kennedy could have started the year in AAA, and been ready for a call-up if anything happened on the ML level. I’m not convinced Livan would have performed similarly in NY as to Minny, but there are so many unknowns anyway.
Thanks SJ44 and OYF and others who are adept at putting the Yanks season in perspective. I share many of your thoughts, but you’ve been able to put them out there in a very clear manner.
OldYanksFan you act as if Josh Hamilton was blind luck. The guy was the 1st overall pick by the DRays. He got the biggest bonus of all time. He was called the Natural. He was a no brainer, a 5 tool player. Obviously he had a drug problem, but all he costed you was money. And very little of it.
All it shows is that we were sleeping at the wheel on that one too. We could have used a CF in the worst way when Bernie was fading. All Cashman had to do was offer a check to the Cubs.
Jeter should move to firstbase not centerfield
Josh Beckett was on the market in that off-season. The Marlins were moving him in that off-season no matter what.
What to do with AJax if they moved Jeter to CF? Put him in RF when he is ready. He is more than capable enough to play right.
Josh Hamilton in NY? Under that kind of spotlight? For Josh Hamilton’s own sake, I’m glad he’s where he is.
Plus, it was a leap of faith for the Reds to ‘take a flyer’ on Hamilton.
So now its Cashman’s “fault” he didn’t get Josh Hamilton?
Are you for real?
The guy was suspended 5 times by MLB for drugs.
You really think NYC would have been good for him?
Nothing like hindight. Its always 20-20.
If Jeter were really all about winning, he would have moved to CF in 2004.
Jeter likes being the Yankee SS. Fortunately, he’s been a hall of famer there.
There is no place to move Jeter at this point. CF is the only possible spot, and for the reasons I posted above, he’s not likely to succeed there.
Jeter is still one of the top AL shortstops. There’s no shortstop we are likely to get who would be better. Leave him alone. Worry about our other problems.
SJ$$-
I’m far from confident AJax’s bat will be good enough for RF. Maybe, but he’ll have to improve a lot. CF, his bat will be good enough.
Leap of faith to take a flyer on Hamilton? They paid 50 grand for him. Same thing we paid Josh Phelps.
Was Phelps a “leap of faith” too?
This prospect fever that everyone has is pretty funny. Already planning on Austin Jackson playing CF.
Lets be realistic here. Austin Jackson is hitting .274 in AA with 8HR.
In half the ABs that Jackson has, Jay Bruce hit .364 with 10HRs in AAA.
To be blunt about it, Austin Jackson is average, yet already has a fancy nickname.
Let me guess. 12 years old, never have seen the Yankees out of the playoffs, and you are in a panic that this may happen this year.
Ever hear of Steve Howe and Doc Gooden?
If the Yankees signed Josh Hamilton, and he crashed and burned because of drug use here, you would be the first person posting, “What is Cashman thinking”?
EVERYBODY in baseball passed on him because he was a mess. To his credit, he got his life in order.
Its a helluva easier to do that in Cincinnati than it is in NY.
If you don’t believe that to be the case, you have little knowledge of drug use and its history among the Yankees.
Blaming Cashman for passing on Hamilton is idiotic. Why not blame Billy Beane? He passed on him too.
“Now who is goning to step in and do a BETTER job of creating a cohesive environment to develop a winning team on a continuing basis?”
old yanks fan-
how about a ” lohud mafia” as gm. we could replace the” tampa mafia”.
would we do any worse than cashman?
i mean two years into his reign he has the yankees closer to last than first.
How many times have you seen Austin Jackson play? Don’t tell me you are another guy who only looks at stats and decides whether a guy is a good prospect or not.
I bet you didn’t realize that Jackson, unlike Jay Bruce, has only been a fulltime baseball player for 3 years.
I also bet you didn’t realize Jackson is one of the 3 youngest players in the Eastern League. Also known as a pitchers league.
If you are going to spend all day whining, at least have some knowledge of what you are talking about.
Austin Jackson is one of the best AA prospects in baseball. That’s not just my opinion. Its shared by talent evaluators and GM’s all over baseball.
Why do you think his name is at the top of the list when GM’s call the Yankees to talk trade?
Let me guess, 55 years old, you post on 10 different Yankees blogs and you think you’re some genius?
If Josh Hamilton was signed and he crashed and burned I’d think the same thing I thought when we took a shot on Phelps. NO BIG DEAL, ITS 50 GRAND.
He’s a once in a lifetime talent. You take a chance on those guys every day of the week and twice on Sundays. If he was going to take 10M contract, I’d say he had every right to pass on him. But 25 grand? For a once in a lifetime talent? Sorry, not giving him a free pass.
You’re so far up Cashman’s rear end SJ, it would take more than him eating a Chili Dog for you to fall out.
Randy 1 – I’m not trying to contribute to your “edginess.” Your analogy of Wakefield vis-a-vis Livan is why I’m in agreement with your overall premise (regarding innings eaters). Sometimes it’s good, and sometimes it’s bad, but both Livan and Wakefield get their teams to the 7th inning.
And part of that is BECAUSE they are sost tossers. They don’t lose their stuff – they don’t really have any. So managers can let them keep the slop coming, in spite of results early in the game, because things usually even out.
I know that sounds loke faint praise, but it’s not intended to be. There’s a lot of value there over 162 games.
Unlike Jay Bruce, Austin Jackson is an average player. Doesn’t matter if he’s 12 years old and has been playing baseball for a year. He’s an average player.
Look at Phil Hughes. All you groupies “he’s our future ace”. All the scouts are saying the same thing I said back in November. He’s a #2 or #3 with 2 pitches right now with oridinary stuff.
Jeter to 1B has some merit, but are you ready for Gonzo at SS fulltime? Not much offense there. Maybe pursue Furcal as a free agent? Jeter to LF makes more sense to me, but obviously you’d need to lose Damon or Matsui to do that, and it’s hard to see someone taking on one of those contracts.
That’s why I advocate signing Teixiera so as to focus on being a better defensive team in ‘09. Depth in pitching prospects should be used to get a RH DH/OF type for better balance. If Kennedy, Miranda and Marquez could get you Bay or Nady that’s worth doing… and would be doable if Kennedy can re-establish himself in the weeks ahead.
I tried suggesting a new position to Derek years ago…
oops *soft tossers
I always love debating 12 year old babies like yourself Patrick.
Why aren’t you mad at every other GM who passed on Hamilton? Everyone else did.
I just laid out to you why NY wouldn’t be the right place for Hamilton yet, you either aren’t bright enough or don’t understand addiction enough to realize what it would be a bad fit.
Your opinion is Jackson is an “average” prospect. Yet, its not supported by people in the game. Sorry to offend you but, I’ll go with the opinion of scouts and GM’s before one from a 12 year old.
55 and post on 10 Yankee blogs? You are 0-2. 0-3 if we count your “evaluation” of Austin Jackson.
Not close on age and only post on one Yankee blog.
Nice try though. Points for that.
doreen-
you know,i never watched livan hernandez even once before i started using him as an example of what was wrong with cashman’s plan for his young pitchers.
baseball is all about pitch count and innings whether you are a hitter or pitcher. it is very hard for the opposing team to take hernandez out of a game early.
i know people here thought i was crazy saying the yankees should have signed hernandez. it looked like i was going out on a very thin limb when i first brought him up.
durability and innings are just huge for a pitcher. as i said before they are intangibles that stat heads don’t get.
the twins know the value of what hernandez does, that’s why they’re ten games over .500.
not too long ago i used the word sabermetrics to a high level twins manager. he said “saber what”
exactly.
have a happy 4th weekend.
I always love watching old men like you regurgitate the same thing on 10 different boards SJ.
You’re a big “know it all”who knows nothing.
You’re the same putz who didn’t give Giambi the time of day. Look at him now. Making you eat your words like dogfood, chump.
Go read Baseball America cover to cover a few more times and see if you can remember everything you read while you type it back to us.
brian (red sox fan)-
i agree that both are soft tossers who let hitters get themselves out.
we’re on the same page on this one.
so brian, are you afraid of brian cashman’s genius as a red sox fan or are you quite comfortable with him in the yankee gm role?
Randy l -
Have a happy July 4th weekend, yourself.
Off to the movies with the family here.
Is Patrick Bateman your real name?
Lets be realistic here. Austin Jackson is hitting .274 in AA with 8HR.
He’s 21 years old and one of the best young AA players in the Eastern League.
In half the ABs that Jackson has, Jay Bruce hit .364 with 10HRs in AAA.
What the hell does he have to do w/ Austin Jackson
To be blunt about it, Austin Jackson is average, yet already has a fancy nickname.
Oh man you can’t be serious.
SJ,
I believe you are right in that the culture of the Yankees needs to change. With Torre gone that leaves Jeter as the iconic Yankee.
So do you trade him? Would he embrace a trade to Torre’s Dodgers or somewhere else?
What is he worth? What kind of return can be expected if it happened?
Just because Austin Jackson is on the Yankees doesn’t mean he’s the best thing since Spam. You can be fans without being homers.
His numbers are nothing special and everyone here is already putting a nameplate on a locker and penciling him at #3 in the batting order. He’s a prospect, and just because he’s one of the Yankees top prospects he’s instantly the Second Coming of Jesus.
He’s got raw athletic talent and he’s years away. He’s not replacing Abreu in RF next season. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Too much Cashman Kool-Aid is bad for the brain.