Cashman made right move with Santana
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- July
- 18
There is no question, none whatsoever, that Johan Santana would have helped the Yankees this season. There is little question that Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy were probably overvalued during the winter. Maybe Phil Hughes, too.
But does anybody still think it would have been smart for the Yankees to trade the farm for Santana then give him the six-year, $137.5 million deal the Mets did?
The Mets are 11-9 in the games Santana has started and he has allowed 16 home runs in 130.2 innings. That’s 49 dingers in the last 349.2 innings if you’re keeping track at home. The guy still has brilliant moments, but he’s getting to a point where you can see a slide coming.
Much like Pedro Martinez, you have to wonder what this deal will look like in a few years. Brian Cashman, it would seem, made a smart play last winter.
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on Friday, July 18th, 2008 at 12:39 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Totally agree.
Cash should have gone after Haren however
Peter,
Santana has an ERA of 3.10 and is sixth in the NL in strikeouts. He has given up 4 runs or more in exactly 4 of his 20 starts. Please calm down about W/L records as that is more indicative of the Mets’ shoddy offense and erratic bullpen than anything Santana has done. Santana could very easily have 15+ wins right now.
He has been better than any pitcher on the Yankees this season.
another aging and overpaid vet is the last thing this team needs.
This team appears to be screwed as the vets are too old and the kids are not ready for prime time.
Damon, Matsui, Posada….how much more are you getting out of them ? Hughes, Kennedy, etc….are apparently not ready. There are no position players near ready as evidenced by the fact they brought up a scrappy bat boy and some other non-descript OFer…..
My hope is they spend the C.C. money on youung position players as piching is a crap shoot at best and you mine as well go with your homegrown
Barton….this is year 1 of that 6 year deal….let’s see how the last 4 years play out at $20+ per.
“He has been better than any pitcher on the Yankees this season.”
Aaaaaand you missed the entire point. The point is NOT ABOUT THIS YEAR. It’s about the six years remaining on his deal that are looking more risky by the day. The guy’s lost several MPH off his fastball already.
“My hope is they spend the C.C. money on youung position players”
Which young position players are available in exchange for money, pray tell?
“another aging and overpaid vet is the last thing this team needs”
or a premier LHP in his prime. but who’s really paying attention.
i’m on the fence. when you step back from just the numbers, Santana has been better than what his win totals say.
and i’m not adverse to high HR totals, as long as they arent given up in the wrong spots, or with a lot of men on base. solo HRs dont really hurt much.
i would have given up Hughes or Kennedy, but not both… of course, in hindsight and thru the vacuum of the 2008 season, it looks like we definately couldve used him and not missed much.
but this trade cant be viewed at now to conclusively say it was a good non-move or a bad non-move.
thats like watching i love the 90’s on VH1 when it was like 2004 or whatever. cant get nostalgic over something that happened a few years ago.
barton,
santana would have been a better pitcher for the yankees THIS year. not year 5, then phil hughes might be a solid #2 and santana will likely be mussina in early 2007.
the other thing is the luxury tax. a lot of teams are simply collecting yankee money and using it against us. we need to get under the limit. the next two years will help with the new stadium, we’ll see how much of an affect it will have on some smaller market teams that rely on luxury tax money to stay competitive
6 years of santana vs
6 years of hughes, kennedy, melky (or whomever) or what we obtain from them in those 6 years, + what we could have been spending that $20 mil/season on…
“i’m on the fence. when you step back from just the numbers, Santana has been better than what his win totals say.”
Maybe, maybe not. He’s pitching in the weaker league and his K/P and WHIP are both trending in the wrong direction. This is the highest WHIP he’s had in about 5 years. He has a low ERA but it would undoutedbly be higher if he had to face AL teams regularly.
There’s no way his strikeouts should be down and his hits up when he gets to face pitchers more often.
Not to mention the whole slower fastball thing.
This is the AL; Santana would not have helped our shoddy offense (as his powers apparently weren’t helping the Mets’ shoddy offense last month).
Anyone that uses Win/Loss to evaluate a pitcher knows absolutely nothing about baseball.
Santana is 29 years old. His contract goes until he is 36 or 37. To put that into perspective, the Yankees’ two best starting pitchers this season (if you don’t count Joba yet) are older than Santana will be at the end of his contract.
I understand why Cashman balked at the deal, and I don’t blame him for it. It’s one thing to pay out the ears for a player, and another thing entirely to do that on top of giving up significant talent. He probably made the right move, but not because Santana wouldn’t have helped. I have no doubt that he will be a viable starting pitcher for the entirety of his contract. It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise.
“Maybe, maybe not. He’s pitching in the weaker league and his K/P and WHIP are both trending in the wrong direction. This is the highest WHIP he’s had in about 5 years. He has a low ERA but it would undoutedbly be higher if he had to face AL teams regularly.”
ive watched most of his starts. i would definately say he’s been good enough to win more games, but then again, when you pair him with the yankees offense this season, you couldnt say he’d be any better off.
” It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise.”
Doesn’t matter that his velocity has gone down? Does it matter to you that he’s striking out less batters while issuing up more hits? Does that matter to you?
What would matter to you to suggest a disturbing trend going forward?
“It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future.”
Bull. How can you say that someone who’s losing velocity at TWENTY-NINE is going to continue to be a front-line pitcher for the next six years?
As I said all winter, it’s not that I didn’t want Santana on the team, but that I didn’t like the price being asked for him.
Also, The Dark Knight, you all need to see this movie. I can’t get over its sheer awesomeness.
I would seriously skip a Yankees game to go see it again. That’s how awesome it is.
Santana obviously isn’t going to escape the aging process down the line, but there is no way you can try to argue that the Mets aren’t better for having made the trade for Santana. They are 11-9 in his starts, but how many of those losses have been because the bullpen blew a quality start from Santana earlier in the season? If you believe it’s some kind of jinx, that’s up to you. It could also be that a Joe Smith isn’t capable of pitching in a big spot or that Billy Wagner should not have been an all-star.
It didn’t bother me at the time that the Yanks didn’t trade for Santana, but he would be one of the few pitchers in the game today that I would’ve considered making that deal for.
I have no doubt that he will be a viable starting pitcher for the entirety of his contract. It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise
What?
and who called him “Phil Franchise”?
The same can be said of A-Rod’s outrageous ten-year (!!) deal. A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball to a guy in his late thirties/early forties for many years. Plus he his clubhouse poision. A disastrous deal.
“Santana obviously isn’t going to escape the aging process down the line, but there is no way you can try to argue that the Mets aren’t better for having made the trade for Santana.”
Who’s making that argument? The argument is that Santana has already begun to tangibly aging. His fastball is ALREADY a couple MPH slower. His strikeouts are down and his WHIP is up. How you any team feel good about having signed a pitcher with those trends to a 6 year big money deal?
“How you any”
How *could* any
lol at the Johan defenders…. You were the guys raving about that we need an ace in our rotation. according to his numbers he isn’t that ace you wanted. Cashman wins this one.
Roger Clemens had a 1.87 ERA in 211 IP in ‘05 with diminished velocity and a lower k/9 rate. Santana will not suffer from his diminished velocity because of his ability to throw several different offspeed pitches for strikes. His strongest pitch has arguably always been his circle-change. If he is able to keep his fastball at 92-93 while throwing his change where it is, he will not suffer at all.
I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career? Do you guys hate the Mets (or love the Yankees) that much that you would ignore the amount of positives that easily outweigh his HR rate and W/L totals?
so far cash looks good but ill give johan till end of next year….could still be adjusting…but for that money there should be no adjustment period…..what crud thatr bonds rumor was….lets start a new one maybe well get on sportscenter….yankees close to signing sammy sosa = O
“A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball”
Actually, his contract is structured so that his salary declines after the next few years. Also, position players generally age more gracefully than pitchers. Also, given the marketing opportunities that are likely to arise given his HR record chase, it made no sense to let him leave as he was approaching the record. If they were going to give him 7-8 years, it would have been dumb not to give him 10.
The same can be said of A-Rod’s outrageous ten-year (!!) deal. A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball to a guy in his late thirties/early forties for many years. Plus he his clubhouse poision. A disastrous deal.
Laughs at post rolls dead
……wakes up from the death still laughs at post 
….kicks the bucket the spirit comes down burst into laughter at post again 
A-Rod’s contract is a gamble that he’ll break the HR record as a Yankee; if he does it, it’ll pay for itself ten times over.
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career? Do you guys hate the Mets (or love the Yankees) that much that you would ignore the amount of positives that easily outweigh his HR rate and W/L totals?”
His ERA+ this year which is supposed to be a prime year is 130. They’re paying for the prime years Santana and he hasn’t pitched like the prime years Santana.
Why are you ignoring the fact that his strikeout rate is declining while his WHIP is going up?
In fact his WHIP has been going up for the past 4 years.
Can the Mets even insure the back half of Santana’s contact?
“If he is able to keep his fastball at 92-93 while throwing his change where it is, he will not suffer at all. ”
He already can’t get keep his fastball at 92-23. You think he’ll be able to get back some velo at age 33?
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career?”
No. That we’re glad that Yanks didn’t trade a bundle of young talent for the right to had a huge 6 year extension to a guy who, while he’s still succeeding right now, is showing obvious signs of physical decline at age 29.
I really don’t see how you can argue “Brian Cashman, it would seem, made a smart play last winter” unless your argument revolves around Santana not being worth the money in the future. As far as statistics are concerned, Santana has been highly effective and Hughes/Kennedy/Melky have not. If you make the argument that down the line Hughes will be better, that’s one thing, but it seems silly to declare this a good non-deal right now at this arbitrary point, following a bad Santana start. If anything, it looked better immediately after it was made, before both young yankees pitchers looked highly ineffective (and injured) to begin the year.
It will take years to tell who made the right deal. Declaring it either way arbitrarily right now seems ridiculous.
So did Richie show up for the work out? Also who isn’t there? WHo was sent out or down?
Oakland got 4 really good players for Haren the Yanks could not match that offer, not even close..
Santana would fit in on the Yanks; a aging star, best days behind him, a really expensive and long contract that will have him making big bucks until he is 36, the only thing missing is Santana is still productive at least for another year or 2.
The bloggers on this site love those type of players and contracts…
It is true Santna would be the Yanks best pitcher this year if he was on the team, my questions is so what?? FOr $135 mill. he better be.. Joba is 22, moose is 39 and Pettitte is like 36 of course Santana should be there best pitcher but maybe not if Wang was not hurt???Wang costs $4 mill a yr. not $15 mill…..
Again Hughes is done he never will be anything he is almost 22 yrs old, they should DFA him, like the Met should have DFA’d Pelfrey a month or so ago……….
If the Mets do not win this year they will not win for a lifetime, they are old and have nothing in the minors………..
“A-Rod’s contract is a gamble that he’ll break the HR record as a Yankee; if he does it, it’ll pay for itself ten times over.”
1) Probably not a gamble. He’ll break the record barring injury.
2) When he does, it won’t pay for itself 2 times over, nevermind ten.
http://www.mlbnewsonline.com/2008/07/barry-bonds-deal-hinges-on-hideki.html
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if this is so UNTrue, why won’t it go away ?
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Peter, you’re sounding more and more desperate in an attempt to prove you’ve been right along in backing Cashman’s idiotic non-trade this past offseason. What is Santana’s ERA? How many innings does he average when he goes out there? How old is he? And what, exactly, have Hughes, Kennedy and Melky done in the majors???? If anything, this season should have proven to anyone with half a brain that Cashman made yet another gigantic boneheaded blunder in not making that deal. Santana is still a top-of-the rotation starter and likely will continue for years. He gives up a few homers? So did lots of hall-of-famers. He still almost always gives you 6-7 good innings (how many times have Hughes and Kennedy done that?), and he’s historically been great in the 2nd half. You seriously cite Melky? Melque-Toast? Who’s hitting… .240? He’s a fourth outfielder, fercryinoutloud. Just because you’ve been touting Phil Phenom or whatever you called him for so long that you can’t go back now doesn’t change the reality: Kennedy has been a major flop and is not highly regarded by scouts anymore. Melky is a fourth outfielder masquerading as the starting CF of the Yankees only due to Cashman’s blundering, and Hughes has been Pavanoesque so far. This is why we are a .500 team. Give it up already!!!!
“Why are you ignoring the fact that his strikeout rate is declining while his WHIP is going up? ”
Because he’s an ACE. And Roger Clemens dominated the heinous 05 AL Central at age 974 with the help of steroids, so Johan Santana will be immune to aging as well.
Look, Santana is currently a great pitcher. I don’t think anyone questions that. The issue is that this was a 6 year deal at $23m per (the highest paid player except for ARod). Does anyone believe he will be worth that in year 6? 5? Even 4?
And do you remember all the people here screaming “BUT HE’S THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL!!!!”. Well, year 1 of the contract, and he may be the 8th, or 9th, or 10th best pitcher in baseball.
If the Sox got him, they may have cemented 2 or 3 more WS titles, but they passed too… even knowing the Yankees might get him. Think about that. Cashman is not dumb and neither is Theo. Omar is not dumb, but he was desparate.
Pete (or any of us really) are not questioning that Santana is a very valuable player now. We are looking at this deal, in it’s entirety. The loss of prospects; the annual salary; the length of the contract. I would think that it would take 3 or 4 years for people to really see that it was best for us to pass. Maybe Pete is saying we will see that in less then 3 years.
It is indeed troubling that Santana’s WHIP is up, his K rate is down and his velocity is down. That would seem to indicate that he will regress in the coming years. However, its tough to say how much he actually will regress. Its possible that he will continue to be a top of the rotation starter despite these problems.
Right now I’d say he is still an ace. If he pitches like he has this year for the entirety of his contract then the trade/signing is a win for the Mets (IMO). Thats a big “if” though, its impossible to say if he is done regressing or if he will continue to get worse as the years go by.
“2) When he does, it won’t pay for itself 2 times over, nevermind ten.”
When you take into account his production over the course of the contract, it seems to me there’s a pretty good chance it will have been worth it.
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I read the following on rotoworld.com:
Former WBZ sports director Bob Lobel said Thursday that Manny Ramirez was fined “a six-figure amount” for his June altercation with Red Sox traveling secretary Jack McCormick.
Lobel went on the suggest that Ramirez may have taken three straight called strikes in a pinch-hit at-bat on July 6 “to send a message” to the Red Sox. “The bat on the shoulder for the three pitches from Mariano Rivera, that was a big [expletive] to the Red Sox after the fine,” Lobel said. “I’m just telling you, there are things in the front office that are perceived. I’m saying that there is a strong feeling that that [three-pitch strikeout] was the message to the Red Sox and it’s a strong feeling that that’s unacceptable.”
Thats pretty crazy..
raymagnetic ®™, there is still plenty of baseball to be played and Santana is a classic second-half pitcher. His current WHIP is far beyond his career averages, so I’d expect that to go down. His velocity is hovering around 92-94 and once again, even if it drops down to 90 in two years or so, he will be able to get outs with his change.
whozat, earlier I said that I agree with Cashman for not pulling the trigger. I just don’t agree with him because Santana isn’t or wouldn’t be effective. He will be a top of the rotation starter for the duration (or at the very least, the majority) of his contract and you’re exaggerating or kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Last time I checked Hughea and Kennedy were 0-7 and Melky isn’t hitting even .260 and Marquez has below-average numbers in AAA.
Cashman messed up
Rebecca,
Seriously. A lot of people here would give you a movie ticket a day to keep you away from the Yankees! j/k
Really jealous right now, but I’ll wait patiently to see it on DVD. Just watched Sweeney Todd. Always love a good Burton/Depp collaboration, but it was gross more than anything.
Next is “There will be Blood”.
Sexson looks like he hasn’t been on the roster yet, so I’m guessing there’s nothing official yet.
I got to give that MLBnewsguy credit he just won’t STFU, even the Daily News personally asked Yankees FO personel they said No.
BTW Sammy Sosa vs LHP career .296/.390/.559 for what it’s worth
Don Vito why is it the only site reporting it? It is garbage. Why would Yankee officials yell and scream at someone that it isn’t true?
It is a garbage site looking for hits.
Yes. If you define the right move as resulting in missing the playoffs and exposing our “prized prospects” as being tremendously over-rated, then yes. This was the right move.
Kudos to Cashman.
Fredo: I dunno, I’m not convinced that anybody can break A-Rod’s potential record anytime soon. So there should be a good amount of time for the Yankees to mooch off record-holder merchandizing. Besides, as long as inflation keeps going, the face $$ value will be easy to pump up xP
Lessee…A-Rod’s megacontract is 275 million…plus 30 million for milestones…so overall, 305 million. I’m confident that the Yankees will garner 3 billion US dollars by the time A-Rod’s potential HR record gets broken.
A more appropriate name for Phil Hughes = American Idle Junior.
I dont believe the Yankees were ever going to get Santana without paying thru the nose to get him. It seemed obvious to me that the Twins were banking on the Red Sox to drive up the price on Santana the minute the Yankees were ready to go to the table and talk about a deal.
They banked on the Yankees fearing so much that he might go to Boston that they would “jump” and give up whatever pool of talent was being asked for Santana.
But the Yankees showed their resolve when it was reported that the Red Sox might have been close to a deal. They never panicked. Boston never really wanted him … otherwise, they would have had him. They were playing possum with the Yankees and Cashman refused to blink.
So in the end, the Yankees made the smart move. If Santana were a free agent, I could have seen them paying him the contract the Mets gave him. Likewise, if Santana were under contract for the next couple of years, I also could have seen the Yankees putting a deal together to get him.
The fact that they had to trade top talent AND renegotiate his contract was too much. Boston knew this too and refused to deal for him for the same reason.
I laugh at people who think that Omar Minaya was so shrewed in getting Santana … please … the Twins completely overplayed their hand and ended up not having either the Red Sox or Yankees interested in getting Santana. I love that both teams just walked away and publically said they didnt want to trade for him.
The Twins looked like fools and ended up getting crap talent from the Mets in what ended being a glorified free agent signing.
*from A-Rod and homerun related merchandise
Wow if Manny did that WOW
“Yankees only due to Cashman’s blundering, and Hughes has been Pavanoesque so far. This is why we are a .500 team. Give it up already!!!!”
Well being that the Yankees are on pace to score more than 200 runs fewer this year than last year I would say that has A LOT to do with their current record.
“When you take into account his production over the course of the contract, it seems to me there’s a pretty good chance it will have been worth it.”
Me too. Being worth it and paying for itself 10 times over, as someone suggested, are two very different results.
“He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future.”
Just how far into the future can you foresee? Please tell us about the future careers of the players we didn’t sent to the Twins and the players we’ll pick up with the money we’re not spending on Santana.
santana will be a solid pitcher for years. an ace worth the money, probably not in about two years. but he still we be a great member of their team. Im glad we didnt do it, but the mets honestly don’t look that stupid. Good job by them, they have won 10 straight
The Bonds to the Bombers story won’t quiet down because the clown who is floating it is enjoying all of the mindless web traffic he is funneling to his site.
People always fall for the Big Lie.
“He will be a top of the rotation starter for the duration (or at the very least, the majority) of his contract and you’re exaggerating or kidding yourself if you think otherwise.”
No, I’m not kidding myself. Diminished fastball velocity at age 29. Rising WHIP for the last FOUR seasons. Declining strikeout rates. I look at these and say “Wow, those are classic signs of a pitcher in physical decline. Oh, and he’s moved to the NL now and is still showing these signs? Geez…that’s worrying.” You look at these trends and say “Oh, but he’s JOHAN, so he’ll be the top-10 pitcher for the next 6 years.”
Who’s the one that’s more likely to be kidding himself?
Jesse,
Can you explain adjusting to NL? Pitching to pitchers? Batting 2-3 times per game?
I’m not down on Santana, but he should be killing NL hitters.
greg mandel was patient with bernie williams also.. he wanted to trade him after 1/2 a year of his 3 yr journey to become a very very good outfielder.
yeah Hughes is Pavano…
again the patience with young players from spoiled yankeeland is astounding… all you have to do is look at what Pelfrey has done the last 8 weeks or CLiff Lee in Cleveland this yr….
the accumen of the talent evaluators on this site is amazing..
santana would have cost 4 players, his salary, and a luxury tax hit of .50 on each dollar spent. that is to high of a price to pay even for Babe Ruth, the passing on Santana is a no brainer to think we are still going around in circles on this shows how stupid the pro santana signing people are…. No clue to reality, no clue to a budget, etc.
BTW the AROD signing will be a bad signing under any circumstances when you figure out how him hitting all those HR’s will correspond to more moolah for the Yanks fill me in.. All signings should be based on 1 criteria if it helped the team win in the short and long term, forget about all the marketing BS…..
“Me too. Being worth it and paying for itself 10 times over, as someone suggested, are two very different results.”
Oh, that was hyperbole and you know it
Nick in SF, I can see far enough into the future, based on past statistics and trends with starting pitchers throughout MLB history that a 29 year old ace will not regress into a bottom of the rotation starter by the time he is 36 years old.
In fact, I can see that most pitchers with the type of stuff and success that Santana has, tend to play at high levels throughout their 30s and some into their 40s.
You have, like others here have ignored the fact that I said I still agree with Cashman for not making the deal because of the money + talent involved. That said, if he could have traded Kennedy and Melky for Santana, I’m not happy that he didn’t.
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career?”
who are you talking about?
there has never in the history of baseball been a starter with a career ERA+ of 160.
Put it this way: Santana IS diminishing. He is not as good as he used to be, I think we can all see that now. With that said, I don’t think anyone knows at this point if Phil Hughes will ever be as good as Santana. Chances are he won’t.
yeah, cashman the genius. architect of a 50-45 team that makes its big deadline splash of richie sexson.
/baiting cashman to make big splash at deadline…
“I got to give that MLBnewsguy credit he just won’t STFU, even the Daily News personally asked Yankees FO personel they said No. ‘.
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and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Patrick I had to bold it, this needs some attention.
Well, it started off as hyperbole, but I got to thinking that if baseball is a 6 billion dollar industry now, with the economy going downwards…
If Selig and future commishes don’t mess up and inflation keeps going, billions won’t be a hard figure to reach
And I still think there will be a huge window of time to enjoy A-Rod’s status as homerun king.
Cashman is too scared to make any meaningful moves, and in my view is a very poor GM. Just what has he done to improve the Yankees other than to stock the farm with some pitching?
Santana would have been a huge asset this year and going forward. When you have a budget of $200+M, paying $20M/year for an ace is totally reasonable. His W/L record with the Mets is not indicative of what he could bring to a good team. Assuming a winning team is the goal, even if you only got 3 or 4 good years from him, he would have been a bargain.
Having said that, the Yankees have many holes and Santana would only fill one of them. These holes were obvious in the winter and do-nothing Cashman has done nothing other than grab other teams’ cast-offs. We deserve better. The Yankees’ ownership deserves better for their investments. It is time to find a GM who actually knows something about talent and winning.
again the santana signing by the mets for them was a good signing there circumstances were different the nthe yanks…
“BTW the AROD signing will be a bad signing under any circumstances when you figure out how him hitting all those HR’s will correspond to more moolah for the Yanks fill me in..”
Merchandise? Increased ticket sales? Better ratings? You don’t think a HR record chase generates more interest?
The deal isn’t based on the HR chase. The extra years are. He’s certainly helping the team win more over the short and long term. It’s those last few years that are questionable, and he’ll still probably be a productive DH at that point. The HR chase revenue helps offset the cost of those seasons.
whozat you keep citing statistics for the first half from a pitcher who, throughout his career has been better in the second half. Not only are you using a small sample size, but you’re jumping the gun.
This is a question you shouldn’t even need to ask. If the Mets were willing to pay twice for the same guy, good for them. they looked awfully good at this point LAST year too, didn’t they? or does Jerry Manuel know the secret to life?
I would have signed Santana. I would not have traded my top prospects for him AND then had to sign him. Same goes for any player. If they wind up being not available, then it wasn’t meant to be. If it means my team loses a few extra games in the short term, it just means we’re in better and sounder shape to actually become something in the future.
Again, anyone who NEEDS to make the playoffs this year at all costs is welcome to stop posting and jump on another team’s bandwagon. Really. There’s the door. ——>
and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Listen man it really doesn’t matter the majority of Yankees fans DO NOT WANT HIM HERE !
I never even heard of that mlbnewsonline site before the Bonds crap they are spewing.
So basically-good job by them. Now I know about it, though I probably won’t visit it…
“Im glad we didnt do it, but the mets honestly don’t look that stupid.”
i don’t think the Mets look stupid at all.
sometimes a trade can make more sense for one team vs. another.
“With that said, I don’t think anyone knows at this point if Phil Hughes will ever be as good as Santana. Chances are he won’t.”
Yeah, but the contribution of Hughes plus Kennedy plus whichever players they would have had to trade in order to fill CF for this season might certainly equal what Santana brings over the next six years.
Wow, what is going on with manny and the Sox?
“whozat you keep citing statistics for the first half from a pitcher who, throughout his career has been better in the second half. Not only are you using a small sample size, but you’re jumping the gun.”
Fine, go look at his stats from the second half of last year too.
Pray tell, does he start throwing his fastball faster in the second half as well?
“Having said that, the Yankees have many holes and Santana would only fill one of them. These holes were obvious in the winter and do-nothing Cashman has done nothing other than grab other teams’ cast-offs. ”
really, the “holes” at 2B, C, SS, RF, and CF were obvious this winter? the hole left by Wang was obvious?
i’m calling BS.
besides Santana, i remember everyone here thinking the biggest offseason priority was the bullpen.
arod making more money for the yanks, I do not believe it.. the yanks are presently by far the most popular team and I assume there merchandise sales reflect this.. They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straigth years.. the marketing angle on the arod signing to me is all blue sky and totally unproveable….
Yeah smart move. Instead of having a proven cy young winner. We have 2 hurt “What if’s” and a “maybe” centerfielder who occasionaly makes a great catch.
As of now I don’t know how you can even argue this.
If it’s about payroll, give me a break. What team have you been following?
Maybe in a couple years, it’ll be a great move. Right now though, we have Sidney Ponson in the rotation. Nothing else really needs to be said.
Patrick:
I thought Ramirez intentionally sat with his bat on his shoulder from the get go. Only I thought it was because he was aggravated that he had to pinch hit on an off day. He once refused to PH on an off day back in 2004.
If they fined him a quarter million or so, that at bat makes even more sense to me.
Brandon (Jeter GIDP: *15 even in All Star Games) (Johan HR count: *16)
July 18th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Listen man it really doesn’t matter the majority of Yankees fans DO NOT WANT HIM HERE !
.
” OK…I get it…so if the majority of Yankees fans don’t want him here, there is NO chance he will be signed. Got it. I am learning a lot today “
Please will someone answer this question?
Example Abreu in order to get picks for him you need to offer arbitration and there’s a lot of chatter about this. But nowhere does anyone say what happens if he accepts? If Abreu accepts can the Yankees trade him and if so when?
“Patrick I had to bold it, this needs some attention.”
Thanks, I agree. Manny is a nut. I have no doubt thats true, it was odd to me that he didn’t swing in that situation.
Hi guys. Since you’re the experts I have a quick question. I want to go to a Yankee game on Tuesday 22nd. Who’s going to be Yankees starter? I’d appreciate your help. Thanks.
SA,
John Henry and Manny are in a war of words. But we’ve seen this tired old act many times. They’ll kiss and make up.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3493031
“santana would have cost 4 players, his salary, and a luxury tax hit of .50 on each dollar spent. that is to high of a price to pay even for Babe Ruth, the passing on Santana is a no brainer to think we are still going around in circles on this shows how stupid the pro santana signing people are…. No clue to reality, no clue to a budget, etc.”
I don’t know about you but I’d sign Babe Ruth for that, what the heck. With Babe Ruth playing, we could fill up 2 stadiums a day and he could fill our pitching and outfield void simultaneously!!
Cashman, GET IT DONE!!
Also, calling one group of people stupid for having “uninformed” opinions makes sense because your opinion is clearly well backed up by years and years in baseball front office work I’m sure…
I doubt any of us are really well informed enough to judge this definitively, but we speculate because it’s fun. No need for mindless name calling.
“Wow, what is going on with manny and the Sox?”
Who knows. But I know a way he can really piss them off if they don’t pick up his option. He’d look good DH’ing in pinstripes for a couple of years.
even with rasner and ponson in the rotation and after getting less then nothing from hughes nd kennedy the yanks would not be in this situation if the whole offense did not fail miserably.. talk all you want the only guy who has performed up to or exceeded expectations is Damon… jeter, jorge, arod, abreu, matsui, cano, and on and on have all underperformed..
you guys are blinded by giambis’s #’s the last few years to think they are so great this yr. he is on pace to not drive in 100 runs hitting 5th in the order….his BA with RISP is AROD like.. the failures off this offense almost thruout the whole lineup leads me to beleive the yare getting old and regressing unless they turn it around immedialy..
you read the stat today they have the 26th best OPS with RISP. the 4 teams behind them all stink beyond belief….
this is the story of the Yanks this season the utter and complete failure of there offense and this includes the weak hitting Derek Jeter…
Ask yourself this question? What, besides money, would the Yanks have been giving up for Santana? Hughes-Kennedy (if they even had to put the two of them together in the deal) and Melky? Granted, Hughes may still turn out to be an ace, but Kennedy and Melky? And will Hughes ever be the kind of pitcher Santana is? Will he ever stay healthy? A bird in the hand…. and Santana is a bird in the hand. He’s a front of the rotation lefty, and even if Peter wants to trot this out every time Santana has a rough outing, it still won’t change that. The final answer on this deal won’t be known for years, but anyone being honest would have to say that right now, that looks like a really bad non-move by Cashman. Oh, and Jorge, who exactly died and made you arbiter of who is a Yankee fan and who should use “the door”???
“la salamanderrr la salamanderrrr” I would like to have Santana right now…Melky is useless and our young phenom is ALWAYS hurt…we already have a gun slinger in Joba…a rotation of Santana Wang Pettitte Joba Moose…pretty sick…Cash has done a TERRRRIBLE job signing free agents and some of the non moves he’s made ::Josh Beckett::
“talk all you want the only guy who has performed up to or exceeded expectations is Damon… jeter, jorge, arod, abreu, matsui, cano, and on and on have all underperformed..”
No. A-rod is having another potential MVP season. Giambi is having a fantastic season, Matsui was great before he was injured and you can’t blame Jorge – he was injured for over a month (and he still is injured). Jeter, Abreu, Cano, Melky need to step up though.
Thanks for the link mel.
Someone died?
People have to understand it’s not strictly what Hughes-Kennedy-Melky-Marquez do v. what Santana does. It’s also what were/are those guys worth, and did the Yanks get the best return for them.
Trading those four guys for a pitcher whose skills are already diminishing AND requires the exact kind of long-term contract that killed this team from 2002 to present is not a good investment on those guys.
You people with no patience might have given up on Hughes and IPK, but the league hasn’t. Those guys have value. Still.
Of course the Yanks would have been better this year with Santana, but so what? They still would be a flawed team. I am happy to have ownership/management thinking long-term, not giving up everything to make a run this year with a very flawed team.
And, remember, the Mets gave up half of what the Twins wanted from the Yanks. Gomez is a slightly better Brett Gardner, Humber is nothing, and the only good prospect is 18 and in A ball. Plus, the Mets are an old team with an empty farm system. For them, this year is their best chance.
For the Yanks, given everything, this year was always going to be tough, even with Santana.
Big Cat, you made my point.
The Yanks didn’t get Josh Beckett for one very simple reason: The farm system was empty and the Yanks didn’t have the prospects to get the deal done.
They do now, thanks to the plan the last 2 1/2 years to stock the system and not get stuck under big contracts.
Yankee fans who think that Cashman can snap his fingers and will other teams to put their best players on our roster are delusional.
And by the way, Peter, comparing the Santana trade to the Martinez signing… a really bad red herring. Martinez was what? 32 when the Mets signed him? And had had numerous arm problems. Santana doesn’t turn 30 until next March, and has been very healthy. No comparison.
Mel…ur right he should be dominating….im not stickin up for him with that contract…and i always hear johan blame others for his losses…yesterday it was the weather and such….130 million….all these contracts is sports have gotten out of wack….300 million …. maybe im just envious
Mel…ur right he should be dominating….im not stickin up for him with that contract…and i always hear johan blame others for his losses…yesterday it was the weather and such….130 million….all these contracts is sports have gotten out of wack….300 million …. maybe im just envious
Stop hating on santana, its easy to talk bad about him coming off a bad game. The yankees wish they would have made that move because they are going to give big money to less of a pitcher in CC when free agency comes. Santana just turned 29 and hes in the prime of his career, to say there is a slide coming is stupidity.
I’m not ready to say Phil Hughes has been overvalued.
You’re insane if you think you can make that judgement right now.
He’s going to live up to the value that Cashman and others in the Yankee organization have placed on him. He still has excellent stuff with moxy and people forget he just turned 22 only a few weeks ago.
Everyone seems to forget that it was baseball as a whole that had put Hughes on nearly everyones lists as the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. If Hughes doesn’t produce it wasn’t just the Yankees who placed this value on him.
henry, if the Yanks sign CC, they won’t be giving up three prospects and their starting cf for him. Big difference.
“Cash has done a TERRRRIBLE job signing free agents and some of the non moves he’s made ::Josh Beckett::”
this is a dumb comment.
John Mara is trying to justify why he needs to have psl’s. What a joke! Just wait this is a domino affect. First the Giants, than the Jets, than the Yankees.
Those stupid ****
Says you ‘own’ your seats. So if I had seats there could I take it home after every game? no. So I don’t own them.
What are PSL’s?
This post sounds like a battered wife who thinks she “deserved” to get hit.
Melky stinks. Who knows if Phil and IPK turn into anything? Santana is a proven ace.
And why do fans care about money?
1. It is not my money.
2. The Yankees waste so much money it is unbelieveable. Clemens was a waste last year. Pavano, etc. Even if Santana is awful in the last couple of years, a couple of World Series titles would be worth it.
People, please stop acting like the Yankees money is your money!
i dont want santana nor did i personally…nor do i want CC
…and when a man makes 130 million to throw a ball i can hate all i want
Cashman wouldn’t make a trade for Beckett (of that time period) today, he would not give up his prospects for him.
I’m actually glad because I can’t stand him, but that is all beside the point.
The real point is Cashman has done some good with building up the farm, but he might now be too attached to them to allow them to go to make the team better. He was never sold on the Santanamana trade from the beginning. Hank was.
personal seat license.
Mitch, to say Santana has “diminishing skills”… what do you base that on? One bad outing? You guys can keep saying these catch-phrases over and over and it doesn’t make it true. The guy is 29 years old, has always been a better pitcher in the 2nd half and has had a pretty darn good first half despite his won-loss, which is skewed by bad bullpen support and bad play by the Mets as a team in the first half. And I’m sorry, but when judging a trade, you do have to judge what the players involved are doing. To get a top of the rotation lefty — how many of those are there in the game? — at age 29, for three guys who either are not healthy, have underperformed (to say the least) or is a .240 hitting slap hitting outfielder… Right now, Hughes is the only one in that group you’d worry MIGHT make you regret the deal. And no, this would not have been the kind of long-term deal the Yanks have regretted (like Pavano, or Igawa, or one could argue Damon or Giambi). Is Mussina a deal you regret? Cause he was 32 when we signed him to that long-term deal…
“Yankee fans who think that Cashman can snap his fingers and will other teams to put their best players on our roster are delusional.”
You mean they can’t trade Bobby Abreu and Ross Ohlendoff and get James Loney? Poppycock I say!
lets go yankees
Surprisingly, pitching has NOT been the Yankees problem. And no matter how good Santana is, if your team doesnt score, you dont win, as he has found out on the Mets. His record would be no better now on the Yankees. And you never trade 4 players for 1, especially a pitcher.
“personal seat license.”
Isn’t that just an extra fee you pay for season tickets?
Last I checked we are over the half way mark of the season. If Santana is a second half pitcher, he needs to really start stepping it up.
Hank’s been in baseball all of what, 6 months? He’s a horse guy.
Although Buss’s drunkard son did insist on drafting Andrew Bynum…
People. When you talk abotu wastes of money, you dont know before that these players will be a waste. Pavano is the perfect example. They would have never forseen this would be how he turned out. It would be interesting to see if they did make the deal, and Santana ended up on the DL. You would all be crying that the Yankees screwed up trading 4 players with potential for one.
Hmm, personal seat licenses sounds quite ludicrous
On the other hand, there will always be customers who’ll pay however much is asked
Patrick; that extra fee is anywhere from $1,000 to $20,000. If you don’t think the Yankees and Mets aren’t paying close attention you are foolish. This isn’t good at all.
fuhgoobagaz – Last time I check Johan wasn’t so good the second half of last season.
patrick for some at the new Giants stadium that extra fee is 20K PER seat on top of cost of season tickets
Coach’s Club: 2,113 seats, 2.7 percent of stadium, $700 ticket, $20,000 PSL
Field 1: 2,049 seats, 2.6 percent, $160 ticket, $20,000 PSL
Field 2: 7,760 seats, 9.9 percent, $140 ticket, $10,000 PSL
Field 3: 19,732 seats, 25.2 percent, $120 ticket, $5,000 PSL
Mezzanine Club A: 3,052 seats, 3.9 percent, $500 ticket, $12,500 PSL
Mezzanine Club B: 4,033 seats, 5.1 percent, $400 ticket, $7,500 PSL
Mezzanine: 10,905 seats, 13.9 percent, $120 ticket, $4,000 PSL
Loge: 2,625 seats, 3.3 percent, $105 ticket, $5,000 PSL
Terrace 1: 14,388 seats, 18.3 percent, $95 ticket, $1,000 PSL
Terrace 2: 11,719 seats, 15.0 percent, $85 ticket, $1,000 PSL
“personal seat license.â€
Isn’t that just an extra fee you pay for season tickets?
Basically, yeah…
You pay your PSL…then you pay for your season tickets.
With the Giants PSL’s run from $1,000 to $20,000 per seat. Depends where…
I don’t think the Jets announced anything official yet, but it’s coming
For the Cowboys, the PSL price is even crazier….
I’m pretty sure PSL’s are prevelant all around the league in football. I don’t see what the big deal is. Supply and demand..
bartonbickle July 18th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
…”His velocity is hovering around 92-94 and once again, even if it drops down to 90 in two years or so, he will be able to get outs with his change.”
I watched the highlights of the Met’s game today and they showed Santana’s fastball at 89. Oh BTW, that pitch went for a HR.
So you might want to get off that Santana bandwagon Bud. This guy has been regressing since June of last year. He’s still good so I’m not saying his contract will be
“Zito-esque” but the Mets will regret it in less time than you think.
are there any BASEBALL teams that have PSL’s. I know at least in Philly with the new stadium they did not. Not sure about some of the other recent openings ie Pittsburgh, St Louis etc.
I would think that neither the Yankees or the Mets want to be the first team in baseball to have PSL
On the other hand, there will always be customers who’ll pay however much is asked
That’s the thing, I can’t afford it…but somewhere…someone will spend that much.
I need a sugar daddy!
Also the SF Giants already have it.
On the radio they were talking about maybe PSL’s for the Yankees and Mets, and the dude so no.
But ya never know..maybe down the road things change…
Here are the baseball teams that have some type of PSL:
* Arizona Diamondbacks Legacy Club Seat Licenses
* San Diego Padres Founders Club Memberships
* San Francisco Giants CSL Charter Seat Licenses
* St. Louis Cardinals Ballpark Founders Club Seat Licenses
I’ll be damned, but as long as it raises profits, gotta tip the cap to another achievement of capitalism
gayle,
According to wikipedia, the D-backs, Padres, Giants and Cardinals all have PSL’s. Also it seems like most NFL teams have them too. I would be shocked if the Yankees and Mets don’t have them in the new stadiums.
Phil Hughes is not just over-valued he is insanely over-valued him and Melky for Haren would have been a great move.
Sorry, Cash fumbled the ball. First of all give Santana a pass on learning a new league. If he stayed in the AL he would be more comfortable and knowledgeable about the hitters.
Take the Yankees 2 best pitchers (not including Chamberlain or Wang)
Petitte (the guy they signed that allowed them to not have to get Santana) his ERA is 4.03 and Mussina ERA is 3.61 Santanas is 3.10
In addition Santana would be a guy that would have saved the bullpen better than Rasner, Hughes, Ponson, Kennedy etc.
I would have made that trade, if one of the top two pitchers in the AL is available I think you need to go after him. We have no idea what Kennedy and Hughes will do, but we do know what Santana can do.
When Brian Schneider is behind the plate for Santana, hitters are hitting .267/.311/.444 with 12 HR and 17 2B in 13 starts.
When Ramon Castro is behind the plate for Santana, hitters are hitting .209/.280/.270 with just 2 HR and 3 2B in 6 starts.
Phil Hughes for all the talk about his stuff seems to only have the following a low 90’s fastball with some movement and an erratic curveball. I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.
The only reason why I say they will not unless they do it a very strange way is that I know people who have full season tickets for BOTH the mets and the Yankees and they have already gone through the process of tickets for next year ie picking out their seats knowing how much t hey will costs (They did it through meetings with the sales staff) and neither or them were told anything about a PSL
No! sorry Pete. Don’t agree at all.
Santana is better than his record. Wagner’s blown him some saves. The Mets are a circus act, Johann’s era is very good.
And replacing Melky in the OF could only have forced Cashman eventually to find a better bat. Melky is worthless as a hitter, there’s plenty better players out there.
IPK now has very little value because he just can’t take the stress of the ML.
Neither Melky, nor IPK has any significant trade value now – they did have, but not now. Hughes is probably not going to excite many GMs either.
Both moves would have given us more wins this 1st half — probably enough to put us in a strong position at the break. Removing Melky alone would have made the team stronger, and more consistent. Santana is a 2nd half guy, we could go right on a tear now.
I know the Mets fans whine about Johann, but they are dead wrong. The poor guy has had to put up with not only fan criticism but a circus act of a clubhouse.
The salary? The Yanks would make the money back with him. If they continue to field such an inconsistent and unexciting team, they’ll not be maximizing the revenue potential of the New Stadium at this rate. So it’s not money saved, not at all.
In all probability Cashman has cost us the season with deluded faith in untried players who do not have the skills, and with no back-up plan whatsoever.
Two words Cashman needs kicked into his backside “OPPORTUNITY COST”.
yeah why would the Yanks worry about money they are allowed to print it..
of course they need to worry about money, they are a business.
you think they do not have a budget??How friggin stupid are you really??
The reason they are in the position; old and fading roster is because of there wild and stupid spending of money for many many years..
Of course there budget and salaries matter anyone who thinks differently is a fool(did not use stupid this time)…
afte rthis yr. $85 mill in garbage contracts off the books, then they will have tremendous financial flexibility.
after next year the remake from a financial standpoint will be complete when the ylose damon and matsui’s deal.. they will be able to make moves like any other team in the league and still ahve a budget higher then all other teams but much more manageable..
Phil Hughes is not just over-valued he is insanely over-valued him and Melky for Haren would have been a great move.
No he isn’t my god realize he is 22, people were ready to trade Pelfrey out of NY because he couldn’t cut it at 24, Hughes is so young in developement that if he were in the futures game this season he’d be one of the youngest SP there.
So learning the (inferior) new league is taking the MPH off of Santana’s fastball?
“Phil Hughes for all the talk about his stuff seems to only have the following a low 90’s fastball with some movement and an erratic curveball. I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.”
Ah, so the talent evaluators from Baseball America who judged him one of the two best pitching prospects in baseball going into 2007 were all wrong and you’re right? Ok.
(He has too much service time to count as a prospect anymore, which is why they didn’t rate him this year)
Giants are 100% over budget on the stadium. WOW
“Mitch, to say Santana has “diminishing skillsâ€â€¦ what do you base that on? One bad outing? ”
why do you keep ignoring what people have posted over and over?
1. declining velocity – go to fangraphs and see for yourself: 93.1 in 2006, 91.7 in 2007, 91.3 in 2008
2. declining strikeout rate – 9.44 in 2006, 9.66 in 2007, 7.99 in 2008
3. increasing walk rate – 1.81, 2.14, 2.62
4. increasing WHIP – 1.00, 1.07, 1.22
5. increasing OPS against – .589, .679, .691 (which is .715 when you take out the pitchers he’s faced)
look, i am not ready to say the Yankees did the right thing. but i am also not ready to say they did the wrong thing.
but there IS real data that is trending in the wrong direction.
no one is basing this on “one bad outing”.
the fact is that his strikeouts should be going UP in the NL and his WHIP should be going down. instead, he is striking out fewer batter, and he is getting hit harder while allowing more baserunners.
am i ready to say he is washed up? of course not. he should still be very good for the near term.
but just as it’s silly to say the Yankees wouldn’t be a better team with Santana, it’s equally foolish to ignore the data that says he hasn’t been pitching up to his own lofty standards for well over a year now.
“So learning the (inferior) new league is taking the MPH off of Santana’s fastball?”
He’s just scaling his arsenal to the quality of the hitters. If he was facing better hitters, he’d throw harder. Duh. He doesn’t want to make the NL feel bad by dominating them too much.
“They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straight years”
The Yankees drawing 4 millions fans a season coincides with the arrival of ARod.
Hughes is lacking somewhere I cant put my finger on it but he lacks the intensity you expect of a young stud pitcher. He seems to be stuck in the mud no passion there is this certain feel you get from a young pitcher that indicates whether he can lead a rotation and I dont see it in Hughes. Lincecum, Volquez, Joba those are guys that have stud written all over them the Franchise I just dont sense it.
I’d like to point out that regarding Beckett, Theo didn’t make the move to get him either. If you recall, he had left the Bahston Front Office in an ape suit a week before. That move was made by the two Bahston execs holding Theo’s shorts while he was gone.
al from bk with his usual red herring..
haren for hughes and melky was not an option.. oakland got 4 very good players for haren not 2…
why do you spout nonsense like the dummy who says why did the yanks not get beckett?Maybe because we did not have hanley ramirez in our barren minor leagues to trade for beckett….
If we do sign Bonds. We will have had the two biggest A holes in baseball in consecutive years; Clemens and Bonds.
Whozat- Yes I am they were judging him mostly on make-up, they failed to realize that sometimes a pitcher with a great make-up and good stuff just doesnt have it.
Still 4 players for 1. Cashman made it clear he knew this would be seen negatively this year. And whoever asked about Haren…. the A’s wanted the same as the Twins in the off-season.
Nick: Hypothesis! Johan is learning how to pitch like Livan to extend his career by decades.
“arod making more money for the yanks, I do not believe it.. the yanks are presently by far the most popular team and I assume there merchandise sales reflect this.. They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straigth years.. the marketing angle on the arod signing to me is all blue sky and totally unproveable….”
Actually, just look at attendance in SF from last year and compare to this year. Last year is was 39,792 per game, this year 35,331 per game. At about $50 per person (ticket + concessions), that comes out to about $17M per year.
I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.
Oh I know…remember that playoff game last season when he came in and saved the Yankees (not that it mattered). Mediocrity at it’s finest from that young bust named Phil Hughes! He will never amount to anything….
Stuart- I think Haren could have been had for around the same package as Santana which at one point was Hughes, Melky and a mid level guy. I never mentioned the Beckett deal, ever Hanley is an MVP type player which we obviously havent had on the farm in years.
“Ah, so the talent evaluators from Baseball America who judged him one of the two best pitching prospects in baseball going into 2007 were all wrong and you’re right? Ok.”
Wasn’t the other pitcher Homer Bailey? Yeah…
I’m still really high on Hughes, just wanted to point out that BA isn’t always right.
Al from BK you don’t know what you are talking about. In the minors Hughes sat at like 93, could jack it up to 95 with extremely good command. His curve is a legit strikeout pitch, he has a change that is decent and a slider which isn’t that good.
That game was yet another example of his flashes of brilliance but yet again just one game and the Indians were swinging at everything they had a lead so they weren’t trying to construct runs.
I never new that richard sexton played baseball. I gues photography is just a hobby for him.
Jenn: baseball or football Giants? I thought the baseball giants just opened a new park a few years ago?
LOL! Someone’s blaming Cashman for not getting Beckett? Because the Yankees just happened to have a Hanley Ramirez sitting around in AAA, and desparately needed a 3B?
“Al from BK you don’t know what you are talking about. In the minors Hughes sat at like 93, could jack it up to 95 with extremely good command. His curve is a legit strikeout pitch, he has a change that is decent and a slider which isn’t that good.”
I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?
“I’d like to point out that regarding Beckett, Theo didn’t make the move to get him either. If you recall, he had left the Bahston Front Office in an ape suit a week before. That move was made by the two Bahston execs holding Theo’s shorts while he was gone.”
Not entirely true. While Heartless Theo was techinically not the GM at the time the deal was made, he was consulted on it and others made that offseason as it was widely believe,almost from the day he left, that he’d be back.
“Sorry, Cash fumbled the ball. First of all give Santana a pass on learning a new league. If he stayed in the AL he would be more comfortable and knowledgeable about the hitters.”
then why didn’t he pitch well in inter-league?
1-3 with a 4.05 ERA.
and remember, that ERA hides the grand slam he gave up to King Felix.
he gave up 17 runs in 26 1/3 innings against the AL.
that excuse seems a little flimsy.
“Whozat- Yes I am they were judging him mostly on make-up”
Are you high? Baseball America does NOT rank players that high based on their makeup. Based on stuff, command and pitchability, sure. Poise on the mound is a nice bonus in their evaluation.
Besides, your perception of his makeup is based on his results. A guy looks calm but doesn’t win has no fire and doesn’t care. A guy who looks calm and succeeds is composed, cool under fire with ice water in his veins.
“I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?”
More like 3. Perhaps the hamstring injury he was recovering from and the broken rib that affected his velocity? Nah, it’s probably that he sucks.
football, said they were 100% over budget. That is just insane!!
That game was yet another example of his flashes of brilliance
Oh I know….thus it definitely means he won’t get it together.
All is lost for young 22 year old Phil….
Didn’t the Beckett deal at first look like a very crappy move.I mean Hanley Ramirez was a great shortstop and look at him now and picking up MIke Lowell looked horrible.And Beckett had a 5 Era and the Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs and were third in 2006.
But hey Beckett nearly won the Cy Young and the Red Sox won the World series in 2007.And it was because of Beckett.
Give the Santana deal some time he still has 5 years left in he’s contract and in he’s prime.Like these prospects don’t make judgement until it plays out.
If I remember correctly, Theo was against the Beckett trade as much as Cashman was. Becketts injury history (mostly his shoulder). Theo valued Hanley more than Beckett. It was the two monkeys in the office that pulled the trigger.
“I’m still really high on Hughes, just wanted to point out that BA isn’t always right.”
Yes, but it’s very common for guys ranked based on stuff, with the expectation that command will come to disappoint. Guys that are ranked based on command (which Hughes was) are much better bets. Bailey has always been wild and walked gazillions of guys. Hughes has never been that kind of pitcher.
Whozat- It wasn’t like he came up and exhibited all his strengths like he did in the minors. Why did his velocity go down and why did his command suddenly go away maybe because minor league batters are just that minor league batters.
“I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?”
I’ve heard its a bit hard to pitch with broken ribs.
Another thing on the PSL. He said people can sell their psl’s after a year to who ever they wanted. So that 100,000 people on the wait list are basically screwed. I know the Jets had people pay money to be on the list did the Giants as well?
“Hughes is lacking somewhere I cant put my finger on it but he lacks the intensity you expect of a young stud pitcher. He seems to be stuck in the mud no passion there is this certain feel you get from a young pitcher that indicates whether he can lead a rotation and I dont see it in Hughes. Lincecum, Volquez, Joba those are guys that have stud written all over them the Franchise I just dont sense it.”
Um, check out Volquez:
2005: 6 games (3 starts), 14.21 ERA, 2.76 WHIP
2006: 8 starts, 7.29 ERA, 2.07 WHIP
2007: 6 starts, 4.50 ERA, 1.44 WHIP
2008: 20 games (19 starts), 2.29 ERA, 1.24 WHIP
Because, you know, you can totally write the book on a pitcher after a handful of starts. Get a clue.
“That’s the thing, I can’t afford it…but somewhere…someone will spend that much.
I need a sugar daddy!
S.A. how pretty are you?
I probably would have pulled the trigger on Santana as long as Hughes was off the table and it still would have been a mistake. Santana will get 90+ wins over the 6 years so its like 1.2 – 1.3 mil per win. The pitching market is crazy. A guy wins 15 games for a couple of years and suddenly he’s a 20 mil a yr pitcher. Ridiculous. Hopefully they’ll just chill out with hughes and let him start anew next spring. Joba’s come once a decade not 2x per year. Next years rotation could be
1. Wang
2. Joba
3. Pettite- he wants to come back and will propably sign
another 1 year- could make sense as he’s not ancient
4. Maybe hughes. Could even be Moose the way he’s adjusted
but we’ll see if he holds up for his next 10-12 starts
5. Big free Agent a la Sheets/CC prefer Sheets or a 2nd tier
But the bottom line is they will very likely have 3 homegrown solid pitchers. That is rare and a lot of us are underrating the value of that. Cashman’s been under the gun the whole year because The Yanks haven’t cracked 2nd place but if the 3 homegrown plan works out. He’ll become a genius overnight
when I was Phil Huhges age I would pitch in negative 10 degree weather up hill with no legs. Clearly he is a bum
Hughes control has been horrific this year as many BB’s as K’s. The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start. I cannot believe that everyone wants to give him a huge mulligan what about his several starts before the injury?
I’ve heard its a bit hard to pitch with broken ribs.
Are you kidding me, it’s like putting on a shoe, he should actually gain 3 mph w/ a broken rib.
“Hughes control has been horrific this year as many BB’s as K’s. The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start. I cannot believe that everyone wants to give him a huge mulligan what about his several starts before the injury?”
Do you think that, maybe, just maybe, something happened between his amazing spring training and initial start vs. the Blue Jays and his suckitude? Maybe, just maybe, he was hurt but didn’t know it?
jennifer
July 18th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Another thing on the PSL. He said people can sell their psl’s after a year to who ever they wanted. So that 100,000 people on the wait list are basically screwed.
————-
I don’t think it’s for whoever they want – according to the website – you can transfer it within the family but if you’re going to sell the PSL, it has to be through the NY Giants Stadium PSL resale service. Meaning you’re probably not going to get $1 mil for it.
Over last winter, many analysts described Santana as the best pitcher on the planet. Really ? Many didn’t do their homework with Santana being scaled down last September with his innings pitched and limited use of his breaking pitchers. Minnesota left nothing to chance knowing they stood little chance of signing him so they weren’t about to risk some damaged goods so they played along with the overhype by pitting 3-4 teams against each other knowing somebody would cave in and so along came the Mets who the whole world knew had something to prove to their fans after the Great Meltdown of 2007.
This year aside and with his velocity down 3-4 mph and win differential of +2, they’ll live with the $22M this year but they’ll swallow hard when he’s past his prime and the yearly $22M they shell out looks horrific.
Yes, the Yankees did the right thing.
The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start.
Here’s what I’ve been thinking part of it is the mechanics but ever since that start in vs FLA in ST Phil’s hasn’t been the same.
If you had a broken rib you would notice it before a month of starts came and went.
raymagnetic ®™ July 18th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
“That’s the thing, I can’t afford it…but somewhere…someone will spend that much.
I need a sugar daddy!
S.A. how pretty are you?
Hello Daddy?
I was never a proponent of trading for Santana, due to the long-term implications (ie a deal like Pedro’s, as Peter stated). Nonetheless, with the possibility of more run-support from the Yankees (although, this year, that would not have been guaranteed), if the Yanks had Santana, they’d be up there with BoSox and Rays right now.
The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start.
Here’s what I’ve been thinking part of it is the mechanics but ever since that start in vs FLA in ST Phil hasn’t been the same.
If you had a broken rib you would notice it before a month of starts came and went.
Maybe he hid it.
“Maybe, just maybe, he was hurt but didn’t know it?”
I’ve alway felt that he did know, but tried to pitch through it. After last year and the expectations of this year, my bet would be he didn’t want to let down the organization.
I figured since this was a public forum I was allowed to have an opinion, I guess I was wrong.
“Didn’t the Beckett deal at first look like a very crappy move.I mean Hanley Ramirez was a great shortstop and look at him now and picking up MIke Lowell looked horrible.And Beckett had a 5 Era and the Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs and were third in 2006″
Lowell worked out really well for them and he was a pure salary dump.
jon
July 18th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I was never a proponent of trading for Santana, due to the long-term implications (ie a deal like Pedro’s, as Peter stated). Nonetheless, with the possibility of more run-support from the Yankees (although, this year, that would not have been guaranteed), if the Yanks had Santana, they’d be up there with BoSox and Rays right now.
————
If they had run support, they’d be up there without Santana.
“That game was yet another example of his flashes of brilliance but yet again just one game and the Indians were swinging at everything they had a lead so they weren’t trying to construct runs.”
Right. The deliberately decided not to score more runs even though that decision led to them losing the game. Brilliant!
“Actually, just look at attendance in SF from last year and compare to this year. Last year is was 39,792 per game, this year 35,331 per game. At about $50 per person (ticket + concessions), that comes out to about $17M per year.”
That 17 million was basically the cost of Bonds contract last year. Granted it was during a run to break the HR record but it is a snapshot of how a player is able to pay their own salary in revenue generated.
If you had a broken rib you would notice it before a month of starts came and went.
What if you never had a broken rib before and didn’t think much of it?
Maybe he thought it was something else? Maybe he didn’t think it was anything major and would go away?
I don’t know what he was feeling or thinking…none of us do.
I hope he returns and does well and I hope all his struggles were injury based because I like him as a player. I just think he is a bit prone to injury(granted in only 2 years) but it is disheartening to see a pitcher with his potential always sitting on the shelf. It makes me wonder if 2 straight years of 3 month layoffs could affect him mentally.
You know, I was about to write “Al from BK you don’t know what you’re talking about” and then I see that Patrick has already done so. Thank you Patrick!
You don’t know Billy Beane if you think he was giving up Haren for Hughes Melky and a mid level prospect. He got top talent and we just weren’t going to give it up for Haren. Fine with me; Haren is a good pitcher but I’m not convinced he would have been a consistent ace staying in the AL and pitching at the Stadium instead of Oakland’s cavernous park.
“If you had a broken rib you would notice it before a month of starts came and went.”
He had no idea that his rib was broken until the x-rays. Obviously he was in pain but tried to play through it. Its very likely his mechanics naturally changed to compensate for the pain.
On the topic of Hughes, I hope that once he’s healthy he stays in the minors for the rest of the season. He needs as much time as possible to make sure his mechanics are good.
Fredo Corleone-
Yes it worked out but it looked like a bad deal because Lowell looked like Damon a player who is past her’s prime or hurt.And Beckett was a NL pitcher who no one thought could handle the AL East.
My mother’s been hobbling around with a broken bone in her foot for about a month now. She didn’t actually know what was wrong with it until yesterday.
“I figured since this was a public forum I was allowed to have an opinion, I guess I was wrong.”
You are free to have an opinion but I’m equally free to think your opinion is retarded.
“Right. The deliberately decided not to score more runs even though that decision led to them losing the game. Brilliant!”
Often when a free swinging team is up a few runs guys start hacking and fence swinging how is that so hard to believe they were trying to pad their lead with the long ball and it lead to a bunch of K’s.
Al from BK,
Quit whining. You’re allowed to have an opinion, and we’re allowed to say that you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s free speech.
I hate when people say that because I disagree with them, I’m denying their right to have an opinion. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
How DID hughes break a rib anyway? Throwing? I,ve never heard of that.
Santana was supposed to light up the NL- CY young favorite all that. Didn’t even make the all star squad.
Doesn’t the pitcher have the advantage over a batter who’s never faced him? Santana’s numbers should be off the chart. They’re still good, but his 3.1 wouldn’t be a 3.1 in the AL.
He’s a great pitcher, but there should be no regrets on taking a pass.
Anyway a quick OT
Listen I know she’s a looker in her own way but why is it that every girl I know is into this song
EXPLAIN PLEASE !!! EVEN MY FRIEND’S LITTLE SISTER IS SINGING THIS CRAP !
I don’t root for Santana to fail with the Met’s. I really don’t care very much about him, or that team.
But one benefit of watching him struggle is we don’t have fleas on here every day railing about how the Yanks should have signed him, Ha!
“I figured since this was a public forum I was allowed to have an opinion, I guess I was wrong.”
You’re allowed to have an opinion. We’re also allowed to disagree with you, especially when the facts are on our side.
Opinion is not a synonym for “unassailable, factually unsupported statement.”
i couldn’t believe the PSL thing for giants games when i first heard about it.
eh. pro football stinks live anyway.
i won 2nd row tickets to a giant game 2 seasons ago and the yankee tickets i had for the same night went unused. bubba crosby ended up hitting a walk-off homer. the giants won, but i was pretty bummed to not have been at that yankee game.
the best part of that night was the bubba crosby chant while exiting giant stadium.
ML- You are not the one getting lampooned on all sides I only need to be told once that you disagree with my opinion stop playing pile on I get it. Everyone is a Hughes believer fine I respect that logic I am not sorry for disagreeing with you.
“How DID hughes break a rib anyway? Throwing? I,ve never heard of that.”
It’s a stress fracture. It’s not from an impact.
He changed his conditioning program this offseason, that could have had something to do with it. No one’s really sure. He thought it was just a sore oblique, at least according to what he said on his blog.
I’ve never heard anything close to Hughes not having heart or intestinal fortitude.
Whatever “it” is, Hughes has it.
I think that Hughes would be better suited as a trading chip. He is not a guy who can make it in NY, he has softy written all over.
That song is already getting on my nerves. But hearing it everywhere will do that..
I’ve been wondering the same thing about Hughes; how exactly did he fracture his rib? I guess its possible that his mechanics were so out of wack that his pitching motion caused it. That doesn’t sound likely though..
Brandon, what song?
Mel
I/m not so sure about the ERA rising in the AL anymore. The pendulum is on the move. Or it seems to be at least this season.
“I’ve never heard anything close to Hughes not having heart or intestinal fortitude.”
“He is not a guy who can make it in NY, he has softy written all over.”
Hilarious. I love that the exact same set of facts and observations can lead two people to these completely opposing viewpoints.
SA seriously what is it w/ that song, I mean every chick I know (no offense) is singing this thing word for word, did I miss something or is Katy Perry this new age Madonna or something ?
“I think that Hughes would be better suited as a trading chip. He is not a guy who can make it in NY, he has softy written all over.”
Right. Because all 17 year olds make it to the majors long before they turn the ripe old age of 21.
Hughes is soft though. How could he not play with a sprained ankle or pulled hanstring? He’s a real baby!
Maybe he was double dating with Pavano.
“I think that Hughes would be better suited as a trading chip. He is not a guy who can make it in NY, he has softy written all over.”
As I said before, you’re letting the results color your perception. Why do you think he’s a “softy”?
Someone must have tried to re-invent the wheel when they changed Hughes mechanics. He must have been doing something awkward in order to break a rib through a repeated motion.
Brandon, what song?
this one
Brandon,
That’s actually a pretty good song, content aside.
Anyone see the preview for Hamlet 2? There’s a song about “Sexy Jesus”. Inane, but destined to be a hit.
“You’re allowed to have an opinion. We’re also allowed to disagree with you, especially when the facts are on our side.
Opinion is not a synonym for “unassailable, factually unsupported statement.—
True, but assessments of BA and others is not synonomous with facts either.
We don’t have the facts on Hughes yet. He was outstanding in the minors and well thought of, but his MLB career has been a mixed bag. I think Al is wrong to say we insanely overrate him, but I wouldn’t dismiss his opinion because it’s not rooted in fact. When it comes to Phil Hughes’ future, nobody’s opinion is rooted in fact.
“hmmm
why do you keep ignoring what people have posted over and over?
1. declining velocity – go to fangraphs and see for yourself: 93.1 in 2006, 91.7 in 2007, 91.3 in 2008
2. declining strikeout rate – 9.44 in 2006, 9.66 in 2007, 7.99 in 2008
3. increasing walk rate – 1.81, 2.14, 2.62
4. increasing WHIP – 1.00, 1.07, 1.22
5. increasing OPS against – .589, .679, .691 (which is .715 when you take out the pitchers he’s faced) ”
Maybe because what people have posted over and over is ridiculous prattle.
And what’s the fangraph say on Hughes, Kennedy and Melky?
Look, some of these stats are important and some aren’t. some may be significant and some definitely aren’t. Many times it takes a guy a while to settle in after a trade, particularly to the other league. I certainly am not ready to say Santana’s washed up, any more than I am to say Hughes will never pan out. But Hughes and Kennedy were (still are) unknowns and Melky is a 4th outfielder. Santana’s a proven ace at age 29 who has stayed healthy. Is it without risk? Of course not, but neither is banking your future on kids, as we have seen. but anyone who says right now that it was a good move not to make that deal is not being honest with themselves. Especially given what we now know about Hughes, Kennedy and Melky. Yeah, in 7 years Santana might be where Pedro Martinez is now… but in 7 years (or less) Hughes, Kennedy and Melky might all be selling shoes for a living.
Brandon-I think it’s just the song itself..
“I kissed a girl and I liked it..”
Ohh yeah baby…..
I mean, it’s an ok song…
But I’m already sick of it..lol…
I’m less concerned with Hughes’ skills, and more concerned with his ability to stay healthy. Since he’s been in the minors, I believe he’s had one season where he didn’t get injured.
He had to have broken it thru pitching. He’s throwing TOO hard. The hammy was sort of the same thing. Reached back to much and over extended
I think that Hughes would be better suited as a trading chip. He is not a guy who can make it in NY, he has softy written all over.
Really? I was thinking more balls of steel..
I dunno too many 21/22 year olds like him…but if you think he is a softy…um…alrighty..that’s your opinion.
He is a “softy” because he has suffered freak injuries similar to Pavano but at a far more frequent clip at least Pavano was 30 when he began his injury sequence. Also even if he dominated I wouldnt think he was that great I am not only
about results. He has a mentality that doesnt seem fit for an agressive results orientated city. Also I think he has very little mound intensity or passion.
Pitching in this day and age. I think there are no guarantees. None. So therefore it is a risk to trade for veteran pitchers. A big risk, but its a nothing ventured nothing gainied situation. If the only thing to be lost is $$$$ I dont see that as a big deal with both NY teams, Boston, Chicago etc. If you pay a guy like Santana for 7 years, and only get four or five quality years, thats the risk you take. Its so hard to tell what the young pitchers will do, but I think that the Yankees trying to go into this season with two unproven starters was a big mistake
“When it comes to Phil Hughes’ future, nobody’s opinion is rooted in fact.”
True. But some are rooted in the collective observations of a selection of different observers. Some are rooted in what they saw on TV from a 21 year old debuting in the majors, and then that same kid pitching while favoring a hamstring and a broken rib.
“Yeah, in 7 years Santana might be where Pedro Martinez is now… but in 7 years (or less) Hughes, Kennedy and Melky might all be selling shoes for a living.”
Considering the fact that the Twins last asked for WANG, Kennedy and Melky this statement doesn’t really have any merit.
“The bat on the shoulder for the three pitches from Mariano Rivera, that was a big [expletive] to the Red Sox after the fine,†Lobel said.
This explains a lot. That At Bat just didn’t make any sense to me. He totally looked like he had absolutely no intention of swinging. I’m glad to see that my mind wasn’t playing tricks on me.
That being said, him being mad at the Red Sox for fining him over something he should have been arrested for proves that Manny is a dirtbag who needs to leave the game. I’m sick to death of him and his mop for hair look. He may entertain some people; to me, he’s a first class jerk. Not sure why A-Rod likes him so much.
The old forbidden fruit gig… that is what makes that song popular. It really isn’t that good a song, nor is the singer particularly good. (She can’t hit high notes for anything) In a few months people will hear it again and wonder what they liked about it.
“He has a mentality that doesnt seem fit for an agressive results orientated city. Also I think he has very little mound intensity or passion.”
This is what I have the biggest problem with. You are totally projecting. Do you think Wang has little intensity or passion? If he’d been winning, you’d be praising him for his poise and ability to avoid getting rattled. Since he lost, you’re lambasting him for looking like he doesn’t care.
i don’t remember hearing that song yet, but i’ve read about it a few times. no speakers at work and i pretty much only listen to 1 radio station or my iPod…
Bronx Jeers,
LOL. During the interleague set, some guy was here and carried on a very passionate argument saying that the NL may even be the better league.
Never heard from him again, but it’s like the NBA and Euro Basketball. Maybe the guys over there have better stats, because they’re playing against inferior guys.
Anyway, the very next day after this guy’s claim as such many, many writers came out with articles saying that the leagues aren’t even close.
Yes the pendulum is swinging. Having Haren, Santana, Harden, and Sabathia shifts talent, but to argue that AL lineups are easier to navigate than NL lineups is ludicrous.
I think it was a bit presumptious for anyone to expect Hughes to be an Ace at 22 but can he at least pitch for more than 6 weeks without tweaking or injuring something.
“He had to have broken it thru pitching. He’s throwing TOO hard.”
Again, it’s a repetitive stress thing. Not from a single event. Given that it’s never happened before and it seemed to happen pretty early in the season, it’s likely that it was due to a change in his offseason program. And we know that he made changes in his winter workouts to try to be in better shape for the season. So, they’ll have to help he re-think his offseason workout program. Fine. The hammy thing we all saw happen…he tried to bury his curve too hard, wound up hyper extending his knee, and that made his hammy pop. It happens.
It really makes me angry when people say Cashman made the right move in not trading for Johan Santana.
Let’s say the Yankees traded Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, and someone like Allan Horne for Santana. They would still have a rotation of: Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, and Mussina… eventually Chamberlain would be in their as well.
Instead we opted for Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes to be in our rotation.
Kennedy pitched 9 games for us and had a 7.41 ERA and gave up 41 hits in 37.2 innings pitched. Hughes was even WORSE, having an ERA of 9.00 in six games pitched.
What a championship rotation…
There is no question in my mind that Johan would have pitched BETTER on the Yankees than the Mets. I don’t think he is losing his stuff, I still think he would be some hell of an ace pitcher for the Yankees.
Pitching for the Yankees is such a completly different element than pitching for the Mets. The Mets had the biggest regular season collpase last season and they will also be the ‘B’ team compared to the Yankees. No matter what, the Yankees will always be in the spotlight over the Mets.
I think Santana would have stepped his game up big time for the Yankees. Even if we gave up Hughes, Kennedy, AND Melky AND a prospect… we STILL would have had one hell of rotation.
As for the joke that plays centerfield named Melky Cabrera, I only blame Brian Cashman for not getting a big time centerfielder. Do people not understand that playing centerfield for the New York Yankees is such an honor? This postion was played by Mickey Mantle, Bernie Williams,and Joe Dimaggio! Melky Cabrera is the biggest piece of junk the Yankees have! He has a good arm, not great, a good arm but that’s all! He can’t hit for beans.
And here is something else… Cashman has said that he wants to keep the prospects. Well besides Joba, Wang, and Cano… which prospects have come up that you said to yourself “OH WOW! WHAT A SUPERSTAR!” NONE. Brett Gardner, Justin Christian, Darrel Rasner, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, Shelley Duncan… ALL FAILURES!
We need a legit centerfielder, a legit starting pitcher. We should have had BOTH before this season started.
“I certainly am not ready to say Santana’s washed up, any more than I am to say Hughes will never pan out.”
sure, i don’t disagree with what you are saying.
my point was that there was more to this than “one bad outing”.
declining velocity, increased HRs, declining strikeouts.
these are very real numbers.
the good news is that he was SO good 3 years ago that he can afford to slip a bit and still be very good.
i don’t agree with Pete’s premise that Cashman was DEFINITELY right.
but i certainly don’t agree with the other half who think he is some sort of idiot for not making the trade either.
“I think it was a bit presumptious for anyone to expect Hughes to be an Ace at 22″
Who did?
Whozat- That is simply Wangs demeanor and players in Asia are not taught to show up guys or be demonstrative its not their way. There is a difference between a guy who is timid and a guy who looks like he is at a job not enjoying the game.
Any word on whether or not Sexon is in the lineup?
whozat,
You better get on all these observations because you lambasted me for citing an eyewitness account of IPK’s attitude.
yanksfan: A little early–probably more news in an hour or so
Whozat- Some people did not me and not you obviously it would be nice if Hughes could stay on the mound however thats all I was saying.
all this phobia about multi year deals for pitchers based on chumps like Zito etc conveniently omit contracts that were actually worthwhile like Mike Mussina. Mussina signed a 6 year 87 million contract, or something close to that and was worth every penny and solid throughout the life of that contract, so much so that he earned another 2 year contract on top of that when the original deal concluded.
Santana has been great for the Mets, lack of run support and shoddy defense have really done him in more than anything this season, I wouldn’t jump to conclusions about a decline on the horizon or liken him at all to Pedro Martinez’s deal which is a bit of a reach.
not to mention Mussina was 31 when the Yankees signed him to a 6 year deal, that’s 3 years older than Santana when the Mets signed him.
“Some are rooted in what they saw on TV from a 21 year old debuting in the majors, and then that same kid pitching while favoring a hamstring and a broken rib.”
Well, I find it a little disingenuous for people to say all the bad was due to health. He had bouts of good and bad last season, as you’d expect from a kid, and was flat out awful this year with the exception of his 1st start. I think his being young is as responsible for his numbers as injuries. Perhaps even moreso.
“He is a “softy†because he has suffered freak injuries similar to Pavano but at a far more frequent clip at least Pavano was 30 when he began his injury sequence.”
You are such a dope. A grade 2 pulled hamstring is not a freak injury. A cracked rib is not a freak injury. It is also false that Pavano started his injuries when he was 30. Go look at his career statistics. He has had only two seasons where he’s thrown 200 innings or more.
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
A-Rod 3B
Posada DH
Giambi 1B
Cano 2B
Christian LF
Cabrera CF
Molina C
Cant sit the big G, and Moosey needs his personal receiver
“Whozat- That is simply Wangs demeanor and players in Asia are not taught to show up guys or be demonstrative its not their way. There is a difference between a guy who is timid and a guy who looks like he is at a job not enjoying the game.”
Ah, but when Hughes behaves the exact same way, it’s that he doesn’t enjoy the game. I see. Have you ever seen him in interviews? The guy doesn’t get up or down about anything. Given the fact that he never seems to get very emotional, AND that the book on him has always been that he’s unflappable on the mound…I’m going to continue to believe that your perception of his personality is based on his pitching results. Calm face + losing = timid, doesn’t care. Calm face + winning = great poise, “that’s just his demeanor”
If he’d been winning, you’d be praising him for his poise and ability to avoid getting rattled. Since he lost, you’re lambasting him for looking like he doesn’t care.
It’s like what some would say about Eli Manning. How many times did people say “Oh he doesn’t care. He looks like he isn’t having fun.”
Raymagnetic: “Considering the fact that the Twins last asked for WANG, Kennedy and Melky this statement doesn’t really have any merit.”
According to who??? I’ve seen it reported that Minnesota wasn’t even demanding both Hughes and Kennedy in the deal, but one of them plus Melky and minor leaguers… give me a source for your statement, or it is you who have no merit.
This is another wasted year in his development his innings limit will significantly stand in the way of any noted progess next year given his long layoff he might be limited to 100 IP then what do the Yanks do. He cannot relieve like Joba and putting him at AAA all season seems like a letdown, how do you suppose the Yanks handle Phil next year?
Ive got tickets for tonite. Sexsons debut? Its hot as hell and the Yanks blow on Fridays. What should I do?
“You better get on all these observations because you lambasted me for citing an eyewitness account of IPK’s attitude.”
Mel, I’ve been agreeing with you all day. How did I lambast you?
“Not sure why A-Rod likes him so much.”
Arod’s not exactly a beacon of character. In fact, he’s something of a slug.
Pete’s post is a perfect example of why he’s the best in blogshere. The Yanks havent had a game in 4 days and there’s not much new to talk about, so he gets everyone’s attention and blood boiling by bringing up the Santana trade. LOL
I’ll put my 1 1/2 cents in. I watched IPK pitch 3 games last year and never once said “wow, this kid is really good”. He was decent, but threw way too many pitches and nibbled. IPK is a perfect example of over-hyping a player based on a very small sample size.The Yanks and their media are very good at that. For all we know, last September could be his career peak. I said it them and I’ll say it again… I would have thrown him into the right trade in heartbeat, the same for Melky. Phil Hughes, we have to have hope for based on nothing more than his playoff performance. But Phil has been nothing but a disappointment otherwise.
The bottom like is that it’s as premature to say Santana would have been a bad acquisition as it is to say Phil Hughes was worth holding on to.
I never heard the Wang for Santana thing either and I was definitely paying attention.
Patrick- for baseball a non contact sport a rib injury is actually rather unusual.
Hughes will be at the same innings limit he was this year. Somewhere between 160 and 180. For a fifth starter thats fine.
The last trade proposition from the Twins was taking out Hughes and inserting Wang. It was on a number of different sources, but who knows how valid any of them really were.
“Patrick- for baseball a non contact sport a rib injury is actually rather unusual.”
As whozat has said several times already, it is a stress fracture and thus was not inflicted by an impact.
I never heard the Wang for Santana thing either and I was definitely paying attention.
Wang was in it at the end. There was an article(not from the NY papers) that broke it down a few months ago with all the changes with who was offered from what team and when. I’ll try and find it if I can.
Arod’s not exactly a beacon of character. In fact, he’s something of a slug.
Excuse me ?
Cashman said during an interview on WFAN that the first offer was Hughes, Melky, 2 prospects. He then said a later offer was Wang, Kennedy, 2 prospects.
“According to who??? I’ve seen it reported that Minnesota wasn’t even demanding both Hughes and Kennedy in the deal, but one of them plus Melky and minor leaguers… give me a source for your statement, or it is you who have no merit.”
this has been reported EVERYWHERE and was confirmed by Cashman on the radio about a month ago.
the deal was Kennedy and Wang.
OR
Hughes + others.
you can argue all day that they should have done the second deal. that’s fine.
but there was NEVER EVER EVER a deal that contained just Kennedy.
EVER.
people keep posting it over and over here despite it being patently false. after 4 months it gets a little old.
Patrick- They can simply resume his projected innings limit for this year next year. What about his lack of innings this year even if he starts hurling in mid august he will not get close to 100. Isn’t ignoring that fact jeopardizing his health?
“Excuse me ?”
I typed it as slow as I could on the chance somebody couldn’t read very fast.
“I never heard the Wang for Santana thing either and I was definitely paying attention.”
no, obviously you weren’t paying attention at all.
this was VERY widely reported.
hmmm: “but i certainly don’t agree with the other half who think he is some sort of idiot for not making the trade either.”
Personally I do think Cashman was an idiot, not just for not making that deal, but for what led up to it. Spending like a drunken sailor on Igawa and other bad deals and signings, left him in a position where he was cash-strapped. It’s left him in the position where he has a $200 million payroll yet has to depend on players like Rasner/Ponson/Melky/Gardner/ Sexton etc. etc. etc. And before people say “Making deals like a Santana deal is what led us to this point”… no, Santana is not “aging” any more than any of us are. He’s 29. Not 32 with lots of arm trouble as Pedro was when the Mets signed him. And even a bad (for him) first half was better than just about any current Yankee pitcher had. It’ll be interesting to see what all of the people on here say about Santana in a couple of years if he is still pitching 220+ innings every year and winning 15-20 games every year….
Patrick- I understand how the injury occured but it is not at all common as matter of fact this is the first time I have heard of this injury in baseball.
“Patrick- They can simply resume his projected innings limit for this year next year. What about his lack of innings this year even if he starts hurling in mid august he will not get close to 100. Isn’t ignoring that fact jeopardizing his health?”
Nah..
Also if they are concerned he can always throw in a winter league.
“The Yanks fretted about just that when Santana was there for their plucking, as long as they were willing to package Hughes or Chien-Ming Wang.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06292008/sports/yankees/andy_makes_trade_decision_look_dandy_117715.htm
The twins asking for Wang is like basically saying forget it we don’t want to trade with you. It’s beyond ludicrous.
whozat,
Was that not you attacking me the other day when I said IPK had attitude issues?
“no, Santana is not “aging†any more than any of us are. He’s 29.”
He’s also already lost a couple MPH on his fastball. So, while he may not be “old”, he is undeniably showing signs of a physical decline.
A freak accident is hydroplaning your Porsche because you’re trying to show off for the Sears catalog model in the car.
A freak accident is breaking your ass. How the hell do you do that?
“Patrick- I understand how the injury occured but it is not at all common as matter of fact this is the first time I have heard of this injury in baseball.”
Well its a legitimate injury, unlike some of the phantom injuries Pavano has had. Are you trying to say that you think Hughes is a softy because he has softer ribs then everyone else? That would certainly be interesting.
yeah that is how it is done. to show long term contracts to pitchers are not all bad you site one of the very few which was not bad Moose and leave out about every other deal which was a bad deal;;
so we have good ones; moose, maybe a person or 2 more I am to lazy to figure out.
bad long term deals for pitchers; pavano, clement, lilly, zito, benson, pedro, schmidt, meche, millwood, park, brown, hampton, and a zillion more.
that is fair 1 or 2 good deals and 30 bad onces, you are right signing older guys to long term contrats at the pitcher position is not a gamble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jeeeeeez….
IPK does have attitude issues he has an undeserved sense of entitlement because of how well he pitched in the minors.
“Well its a legitimate injury, unlike some of the phantom injuries Pavano has had. Are you trying to say that you think Hughes is a softy because he has softer ribs then everyone else? That would certainly be interesting.”
Lol, certainly as long as he doesn’t have “buttocks” listed on his DL report then he is nowhere near Pavano. I am so glad his contract is ending that was the least constructive use of 40 mil ever.
Peter’s post that we are talking about here is in regards to Hughes-Kennedy-Melky, not Wang.
If the Twins added an option that included Wang, that is one thing. But they never said the Hughes-Kennedy-Melky deal was off the table, and I never said it was “just Kennedy,” simply said that that was REPORTED, which it was (not just Kennedy, but Kennedy without Hughes). There are lots of things reported in regards to trade rumors, doesn’t make it fact. that was my point. Anyway, it’s moot because as I said what we are talking about is Peter’s post re. Hughes-Kennedy-Melky.
Whozat
I still don’t believe it and I just read it. Thanks for the link. If we put Wang in the trade debate then there really is no debate. There is no deal no way no how
“According to who??? I’ve seen it reported that Minnesota wasn’t even demanding both Hughes and Kennedy in the deal, but one of them plus Melky and minor leaguers… give me a source for your statement, or it is you who have no merit.”
Here’s my source
Buster Olney later reported the same thing. So either the Yankees floated this out there to Madden and Adam Rubin & Buster Olney, or the Twins actually did ask for Wang & Kennedy & Melky.
“Arod’s not exactly a beacon of character. In fact, he’s something of a slug.”
A-Rod has more character in his little pinkle than Manny has in his entire body. A-Rod is many things; a slug is not one of them.
I agree this year it looks like Santana was the better individual, and it might look that way again next year.
This past winter I was thinking that would be the case, but the potential for it being better overall in the long run not to make the Santana deal (w/whoever involved) so I’m not going to second guess it.
Now if it turns out Melky’s career were to peak at age 22 and he’s totally out of the game by 25, or if he were to blow out an ACL and has to hang ‘em up at 24, nobody could predict either such thing happening 6 months ago. I doubt that’ll be the case but if it turns out that way you can’t look back & say ‘coulda shoulda woulda’ on him. It would have been just as unpredictable as forseeing a TJ or rotator cuff surgery for Santana 3 years in advance. And over the winter there were were rumors floating around about Santana having some sort of a problem too.
Hey, you roll the dice and play it. With the way the Yanks are hitting now, if Santana were on our side of town he could have the same twisted ERA – W/L record he does now.
yeah greg mandel Igawa at $4 mill is reckless but giambi, arod, jeter, and the others at 4 or 5 times Igawa’s wasted money are good moves..
greg you just don’t get it.. you worry about the little stuff that is not important but gloss over a lineup that has failed all season from almost all players and give jeter, afraud, giambi, and the rest of the clutch gang a pass..
I think Cashman has done agreat job and if allowed to complete it the Yanks will be very very good for many years. This yr. is there low water mark and adios to $85 mill of your great contracts at the end of the yr.
In Greg’s word the yanks are failing because Gardner has not starting his MLB career on fire not the utter lack of production from the older Yankees……
“Was that not you attacking me the other day when I said IPK had attitude issues?”
Probably. But I’m not attacking you about Hughes.
It’s very common for people to look at performance and start to make assumptions about what’s going on in his head.
You were saying that Kennedy’s opinion that he should be in the bigs working out his troubles on an MLB mound constituted attitude problems. To the contrary, I think you WANT young guys to think they belong in the bigs. If he phones it in at AAA because of his feelings, that’s a problem. I haven’t seen him do that, though.
This is way off topic, but has anyone picked up the new iPhone yet. I’m 99% sure I want to get one, but that last 1% is nagging me. If anyone owns one, is it the end all and be all of devices that I’ve heard?
I have grown weary of Santana/Hughes/IPK talk does anyone know what Humberto Sanchez is doing right now?
How many of these guys are worth what they are being paid? Andy, Peavy, Zambrano Smoltz and Halladay? Not many of the others are close.
Starting pitchers
The highest-paid starting pitchers, by average annual value:
1. Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)
2. Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)
3. Barry Zito, $18,000,000 (2007-13)
4. Jake Peavy, $17,333,333 (2010-12)
5. Andy Pettitte, $16,000,000 (2008)
6. Jason Schmidt, $15,666,667 (2007-09)
7. Mike Hampton, $15,125,000 (2001-08)
8. Roy Oswalt, $14,600,000 (2007-11)
9. Mark Buehrle, $14,000,000 (2008-11)
John Smoltz, $14,000,000 (2008)
10. Roy Halladay, $13,333,333 (2008-10)
11. Pedro Martinez, $13,250,000 (2005-08)
12. Randy Johnson, $13,000,000 (2007-08)
13. Chris Carpenter, $12,700,000 (2008-11)
14. Bronson Arroyo, $12,500,000 (2009-10)
15. Kevin Millwood, $12,000,000 (2006-10)
“A-Rod has more character in his little pinkle than Manny has in his entire body. A-Rod is many things; a slug is not one of them.”
Your opinion and I respect that.
I see him as a self absorbed, whiney, entitled, bag of fleas. I think he’s a fine baseball player, but a lousy person. Baseball doesn’t define character. How you treat people, say one’s family for example, does. I’ll rephrase my statement to reflect that IN MY OPINION Arod is a low rent piece of garbage who happens to play baseball well.
Laura- My sister has one it is great but still has some kinks that Apple refuses to adress if you think it is worth your hundreds of dollars I say do it but it is not a flawless system.
whozat :
“He’s also already lost a couple MPH on his fastball. So, while he may not be “oldâ€, he is undeniably showing signs of a physical decline.”
“Undeniably” showing signs of “physical decline”? Because some radar gun showed him at 2mph slower than a couple of years ago — at age 29 — isn’t undeniable anything. Pitchers lose velocity temporarily all the time, for many reasons. Before he went on the dl, Hughes’ fastball was being clocked around 91-92. I guess he was “undeniably” showing signs of physical decline too.
And pitchers age and lose velocity and learn other pitches and get smarter and become better pitchers too. the point is Santana is 29 years old, a proven commodity (and a rare one — a front-end of the rotation starter), while Hughes and Kennedy… ah, what’s the use… Time will tell whether this was another of Cashman’s blunders.
“Humberto Sanchez is doing right now?”
pitching in the GCL. Look him up on milb.com
Halladay is great I remember when he had a down year a few years ago I wonder if Toronto ever made him available.
I`ll take Manny on the Yankees anytime anyday
TK
thanks for the list
Halladay is the shining star for contracts on that list. Love that guy. My dream pitcher . Never leaving Toronto
Peavy 2nd?
Pettite’s actually ok at 16 mil as long as its one or two years at a time
“Because some radar gun showed him at 2mph slower than a couple of years ago — at age 29 — isn’t undeniable anything.”
It’s no some radar gun. It’s all the radar guns. Look it up on fangraphs. He’s lost a couple MPH on his fastball. This isn’t me watching one game and looking at the TV speed numbers. This is documented over the course of months.
““Humberto Sanchez is doing right now?â€
pitching in the GCL. Look him up on milb.com”
Thank you.
Uh, I think they meant to say, “He’s something of a slut”
“Before he went on the dl, Hughes’ fastball was being clocked around 91-92. I guess he was “undeniably†showing signs of physical decline too.”
Or, you know, he was maybe showing signs of pitching with a broken rib.
“Humberto Sanchez is doing right now?â€
pitching in the GCL. Look him up on milb.com”
About time to get him away from pitching to teenagers and into A ball, no???
Kennedy = Clippard part 2. Should be apart of the trade this offseason. With Aceves/McCutchen’s emergence plus the fact we will likely sign one of Sabathia/Sheets in the off-season, there is no room for him. He is not apart of our future.
Keep him in the minors all year and let him up his value.
“I`ll take Manny on the Yankees anytime anyday”
I dunno he is a media clown, even if he hit 50 in YS would it be worth it. I want him to go to the NL even the Mets I dont care as long as our pitchers never have to face him again.
” I never said it was “just Kennedy,†simply said that that was REPORTED, which it was (not just Kennedy, but Kennedy without Hughes”
sure.
it Kennedy without Hughes.
plus Wang.
Fredo,
Tell us how you really feel about A-Rod.
“It’s no some radar gun. It’s all the radar guns. Look it up on fangraphs. He’s lost a couple MPH on his fastball.”
Maybe he’s got a broken rib. (;
Only Pete Abe and Cash’s Army of Excusemakers can look at a deal where the guy who got away is pitching to a 3.10 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP, while the guys we kept haven’t won a single game (and are both injured!) and state emphatically “Nice job, Brian.”
I also love how most here can definitively predict that Santana’s going in the toilet because his ERA’s all the way up to 3.1, but haven’t lost an iota of faith in Phil Franchise despite putrid pitching and Pavano-like recuperative abilities.
Bottom line, if we had Santana instead of Hughes/Rasner, we’d probably be in first place now and we’d certainly be on firmer footing for the rest of the year. You want to argue that a final verdict on this deal is years away, fine. But as of right now, Cashman dropped the ball.
There were so many variables in the santana trade ( contract staus, players,ect) that it’s no wonder it didnt happen. I’m far more concerned that, after a winter full of hearing about all the prospects in the Yankees’ farm system, the Yanks had no where near enough to offer Oakland for Dan Haren.The farm system is definitely better, but there’s not a single power hitter or corner outfielder that’s anywhere near ready. Also, a lot of the names bantered all winter ( Tabata, Horne, Marquez, Ohlendorf and Kennedy to name a few) have had terrible seasons and have seen their trade value diminish.
Sorry Pete, but you’re wrong here. Cashman made so many wrong moves this off season you’re seeing it all blow up in his face right now.
He completely overvalued his prospects and was petulant about making this deal and it soured the whole start of the season.
If he had made the deal with Minny and given up Hughes, Melky, etc. it would have strengthened the rotation and also would have forced the team to strengthen the CF position by finding a player to replace Melky.
At this point, whoever that player might have been, odds are that he would have been a better offensive performer than Melky.
Trading Melky in the deal might have both strengthened the pitching and the offense in the long run.
It was one of those moments that fans will go back and look at and analyze forever.
What he did by not trading for Johan was put intense pressure on Hughes, Kennedy and Melky to perform. What we’ve seen is these players clearly weren’t at the stage in their development to handle this kind of pressure/role and it’s regressed them.
If we traded for Johan we’d have 2 great lefties in the rotation. We’d still have Joba and most of the other kid relievers who are contributing and we’d have something better in CF.
This deal should have been made at the winter meetings but Cashman did everything he could to squash it.
I think making the deal makes this year’s team a winner and with all the payroll coming off after this year, he’d still have money to play with. Johan’s contract wasn’t going to hamstring an organization that is paying a AAA 4 million a year to pitch.
Cashman has to save this season and pull his head out of arse and give up some prospects for some pieces to help this team.
He has no eye for talent and can’t project major league players on his own at all.
If we’re supposed to absolve him of the bad long term deals from the past when the team was winning, then he has to accept the blame for the state that this team is in right now.
He’s had 3 years. His hands are all over this team.
To me, it looks like we’re playing for 2010 which is a joke when the core of this team is in a win now stage of their careers.
He’s done a poor job, but he can fix it. Do I think he will?
No.
I truly hope he’s Seattle’s GM next season. I want someone who doesn’t make their decisions from fear in the front office. Every decision he doesn’t make is because he’s fearful of implications.
That’s not inspiring at all, except, I suppose, to all the prospect hugging bloggers in here who want us to become the Marlins.
“Fredo,
Tell us how you really feel about A-Rod.”
Same way I feel about Damon, for the same reasons. Yet, I’m glad they play for the Yankees. As a fan, I’ll take baseball excellence over excellence of character. Thankfully, so will the Yankees.
Guys – check out the recent Blanton deal.
Blanton is not a good pitcher. Better than Livan, yes, but not a good pitcher.
The As got an excellent 2B prospect for him.
Ian Kennedy has roughly a 50% shot (purely my opinion) of being better than Blanton. Don’t be in such a hurry to deal the kid for a bag of balls.
“Bottom line, if we had Santana instead of Hughes/Rasner, we’d probably be in first place now and we’d certainly be on firmer footing for the rest of the year.”
No, the bottom line is if the Yankees had scored even 50 more run this year they’d probably have 5 more wins. That would put them in first place or very close to it.
The pitching has been better than it was last year. It’s the offense that’s suspect.
Stuart:
where do you get this stuff? I have never said any of the junk you just posted I said. I am not giving the lineup a pass, in fact I have posted on this site many times how the lineup is more the cause of our problems than anything else. but this is a discussion about the Santana no-deal…
And where did I blame anything on Gardner? Where? You are just pulling stuff out of your rear end. Bend over and put it back.
““Humberto Sanchez is doing right now?â€
pitching in the GCL. Look him up on milb.comâ€
About time to get him away from pitching to teenagers and into A ball, no???”
Maybe let him recover from his injury first? Or do you want to plop him right in the major league rotation?
Sexson in the lineup tonight.
Jeter ss, Abreu rf, Rodriguez 3b, Posada c, Sexson 1b, Cano 2b, Cabrera cf, Molina c, Gardner lf, Mussina p.
Someone Else,
How ’bout a bag of balls and 5 maple bats? lol
GLove is always on cue
They say Ty Cobb was a bad guy too. Great player and you`d want him on your team. If the Yanks had Manny the last two times Boston won, the Yankees might have won those to. You can be sure Boston doesnt win any championships without Manny
The one thing I like about the Santana non trade is that he is not taking up cap room after this year.
If you really think that Pettitte is worth 16 million a year, then Santana at 22 million is more than fair.
Sexson in the lineup tonight.
Jeter ss, Abreu rf, Rodriguez 3b, Posada c, Sexson 1b, Cano 2b, Cabrera cf, Molina c, Gardner lf, Mussina p.
The AL’s all star win took the DH away too
# whozat July 18th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“Before he went on the dl, Hughes’ fastball was being clocked around 91-92. I guess he was “undeniably†showing signs of physical decline too.â€
Or, you know, he was maybe showing signs of pitching with a broken rib.”
Or, you know, he was maybe showing signs of being overrated.
G Love –
What you are ignoring is that if Hughes or IPK settles into the rotation the Yanks are essentially freeing up more than $24M a year to allocate to other needs on the team -
With the luxury tax Santana’s hefty deal would have been an anchor around the neck of the franchise. An under control IPK or Hughes costs chump change.
Lefty pitcher probably means Christian in the line-up, not Flash Gardner.
“Maybe let him recover from his injury first? Or do you want to plop him right in the major league rotation?”
Isn’t recovery over. He’s pitching in the GCL, presumedly as well as he can with whatever strength he can muster. If there was anything other than the ordinary chance of injury, they wouldn’t be pitching him at all, right? He’s made 7-8 appearances there, pitching every 3rd day. He’s out of his element as nobody can get on base against him down there. I’m just saying, can’t he pitch an inning every third day where the competition is little more appropriate?
”
There is no question, none whatsoever, that Johan Santana would have helped the Yankees this season. There is little question that Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy were probably overvalued during the winter. Maybe Phil Hughes, too.
But does anybody still think it would have been smart for the Yankees to trade the farm for Santana then give him the six-year, $137.5 million deal the Mets did?
The Mets are 11-9 in the games Santana has started and he has allowed 16 home runs in 130.2 innings. That’s 49 dingers in the last 349.2 innings if you’re keeping track at home. The guy still has brilliant moments, but he’s getting to a point where you can see a slide coming.
Much like Pedro Martinez, you have to wonder what this deal will look like in a few years. Brian Cashman, it would seem, made a smart play last winter.
”
This post makes no sense.
You evaluate that Kennedy and Melky have been overvalued, maybe even Hughes too. You then proceed to say that trading for Santana would of be trading the “farm”.
How do you figure?
The way I see it, instead of giving 25-30 Million per to Santana we will be giving it to Sabathia who is a year younger but 100 pounds heavier, has never had an ERA under 3, and was an absolute choke artist last year during the playoffs.
The bottomline is I’d rather have Santana especially considering Sabathia is NO GUARANTEE.
Hey did you know if you type in N O M A A S your post gets filtered out. Weird.
That’s the friggin line up tonight. Well I guess thats’ what they got right.
Yeah that Sheffield must have been so toxic that we got a guy that cant even pitch for like 2 years. Exactly when did Sanchez get Tommy John?
“Laura- My sister has one it is great but still has some kinks that Apple refuses to adress if you think it is worth your hundreds of dollars I say do it but it is not a flawless system.”
No doubt. Whenever Jobs releases something new, the first version of it is buggy. He eventually gets around to fixing it.
hmmm,
We all know that when Minn. called Cash in February they asked for Kennedy and Wang. The question is what, if anything, was Cash’s counter?
I’ve never once heard him say that he offered a package better or equal to what they accepted from the Mets and was rebuffed. Don’t you think if he had, Fat Mouth Hank would be braying about the vast anti-Yankee conspiracy?
Cash didn’t want Santana because of the money and length of contract. Maybe down the road he’ll be proven right. Judged as of today, he’s wrong.
I want someone who doesn’t make their decisions from fear in the front office.
If I am not correct G love, Didn’t Hank wanted Johan Santana?
TK,
Here’s my problem with what you’re saying. We have our 2b, SS, 3b, C locked up for the next 4 years already.
All that OF money is coming off the books in the next few years and can be spent on replacements.
The money that would have went to Johan would not have hamstrung an organization that had most of it’s core locked up and funds available to allocate to the OF.
Not to mention we’ve been drafting better and perhaps in the next 4 years we bring up an OF prospect who is major league quality.
Johan’s money wasn’t going to stop this team from doing anything. They still could have lowered payroll next season having Johan in the fold.
Just dumping Giambi, Moose, Pettitte, Farnsworth, Hawkins, Pavano, Abreu etc. would have still left the team with a ton of resources to fill in the roster.
“I’ll rephrase my statement to reflect that IN MY OPINION Arod is a low rent piece of garbage who happens to play baseball well.”
Gotcha, Fredo. I disagree. He was really nice to that dying kid two weeks ago. Is he a womanizer? Probably. Should his wife have known better? Most definitely. I tend to cut these guys some slack because I have such a low opinion of men that when I hear that they are cheating, it’s a none event. I would have been more shocked if he weren’t cheating.
I like A-Rod. He’s flawed and troubled like me.
From Ed Price’s blog:
UPDATE: lefty reliever Billy Traber has been optioned to Triple A and Phil Hughes has been moved tp the 60-day DL.
No roster move yet to make room for Sexson.
The lineup:
Jeter ss, Abreu rf, Rodriguez 3b, Posada c, Sexson 1b, Cano 2b, Cabrera cf, Molina c, Gardner lf, Mussina p.
The Yankees haven’t scored more than three earned runs off a starting pitcher since June 27 (six off Pedro Martinez).
Robinson Cano is 1-for-17 in his past five games.
Brett Gardner has 11 strikeouts in 36 big-league at-bats.
Jorge Posada has gone 29 at-bats without an RBI.
I think Santana should have improved going into the NL not the other way around. I dont think the trade should have been made but at the same time Melky, IPK and Hughes have given the Yanks very little this year.
two catchers. weird.
Anytime I see G. Love post why do I immediately think of the judge from the movie “My Cousin Vinny”?
G. Love,
That was a lucid, well thought out objection. Overruled!
First of all, who’s this mysterious CF that the Yankees could have signed? Hunter and Rowand had already signed by the time the Twins played around with the Yankees original deal which DID include Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera.
So Cashman would have had to try to trade for another CF. Don’t know what teams are trading any semi decent CF’s do you?
Saying Cashman doesn’t have an eye for talent is silly considering all the young pitchers on the team who are doing well.
We also have to see how the draftees from the past 3 years pan out before we’ll know for certain if he has an eye for talent.
In your myopic point of view three years may seem like a long time but the truth is when drafting and developing players 3 years isn’t a long time at all.
“All that OF money is coming off the books in the next few years and can be spent on replacements.
The money that would have went to Johan would not have hamstrung an organization that had most of it’s core locked up and funds available to allocate to the OF. ”
I get your point, but we’re still going to have to replace the guys who are leaving and there are no decent position players that look capable of being players next year. So even when we say goodbye to the $26M in LF (godzilla and Johnny), $27M between Moose and Andy and the others, we are going to have to get FA’s to fill those voids.
YankeesTech,
I think Hank was talked down by his GM and his brother who all bought into that Hughes and Kennedy and Melky were akin to what the Red Sox just pulled off with Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia.
This off season Cashman was puffing his chest out about how he’s not giving away his top prospects.
Month’s later those prospects have all taken a huge hit to their value with the exception of Austin Jackson who may have increased his value.
What other Yankee prospect increased his value? Robertson maybe? That’s it.
All the other little gems of the system took a big step back and are not as highly regarded as they were this off season.
If Cashman put Hughes on the table for Haren he might have been in pinstripes. That’s how highly regarded Hughes was this off season.
“What you are ignoring is that if Hughes or IPK settles into the rotation the Yanks are essentially freeing up more than $24M a year to allocate to other needs on the team -
With the luxury tax Santana’s hefty deal would have been an anchor around the neck of the franchise.”
not that i have to back up G. Love, who it seems is always on point, i will say IMO, this money argument is just stupid.
these are the Yankees. they have money. they also have a ton of money coming off the payroll next season.
why do all of the fans care where the yankees payroll is at? if the Steinbrenners are willing to spend it, then we should be happy.
and yes, i realize Hal sided with Cashman about Johan and adding the payroll, and not being a sound investment, but lately ive gotten the same impression as G. Love and some others that its no longer about the Yankees winning games, but about lowering the payroll, developing young prospects, and being competitive.
i dont get it.
Hey Ray,
You know the judge was wrong and Vinny ended up winning the case, right? :>)
“He’s made 7-8 appearances there, pitching every 3rd day. He’s out of his element as nobody can get on base against him down there. I’m just saying, can’t he pitch an inning every third day where the competition is little more appropriate?”
Yeah, I agree. He needs to at least be in A ball right now. He’s just toying with those youngins down in the GCL.
“why do all of the fans care where the yankees payroll is at? if the Steinbrenners are willing to spend it, then we should be happy.”
Because we live in a world where there is something called economics, the Steinbrenners and the Yankees can’t print money and if you want to ignore the reality of that you are missing out on an aspect that effects team’s decisions.
Mike Cameron was still available as the stopgap CF…until he signed with…the Brewers, I believe. Or was I thinking of Cliff Floyd and the Devil Rays?
That, paired with Andy coming back, led to the pulling of the first deal (Bill Smith dropped the ball on this one; he had it in his hands and didn’t accept it in time).
Then came the version where Hughes was replaced with Wang and Kennedy. That got the ‘yeaaaa…..no’ response.
people on this board need to stop wanting hughes to be joba. he isnt. they have totally different demenors on the mound and i believe i have even heard joba say he admires phils ability to stay calm out there. he’s not a fist pumper, he doesnt have a 100 mph fast ball, and he has never shown the raw emotion joba does out there but that does not mean he is not a good pitcher who CARES ABOUT THE GAMES HE IS PLAYING. to assess his character and abilities based on what we’ve seen is just stupid.
they cant all be joba. just like they cant all be jeter. it isnt easy for players to just show up one day, throw on the pinstrips and be legit yankees.
also, ive seen a few of you hanging onto giambi next season and getting rid of moose. if anyone can explain how that makes any logical sense based on our needs for next season id like to know what youre smoking because i want some immediately. it makes total sense to keep moose even as a 5th starter based on what we’ve seen the past few years which is you can NEVER have enough starting pitching. giambi should never get to wear our uniform again. i dont think he is a bad person/player but his time is done with us.
TKInDC-
Agree with your statement about spending. The larger the contract, especially in terms of years, the harder it is to trade that player and get value in return, unless you eat a large part of money.
Luckily the Yankees generate income. It’s the teams that receive revenue sharing that don’t put it back into bettering their teams, I don’t understand. Especially if you want to generate fan support. When you see Oakland giving away one all star after another and in my opinion, usually getting the lesser of the deal, you feel sorry and understand why the team won’t draw good attendance.
Dead wrong. Santana is good for 100 wins and 1200IPin the next 6 years. Kennedy and Hughes may not even have half of that.
And Melky is a fourth outfielder.
Spencer-
Giambi is currently making 23+M with a 5M buyout. I agree we should just buy him out and should definitely not offer arbitration, unless he agrees to decline, allowing us a draft player. If offered arbitration the arbiter is unlikely to cut him 70% to about 7M, which still would not be worth it for essentially a DH, and we have plenty of those.
Moose on the other hand, faded badly the second half, then had a ?? 2-3 week stretch of pitching well, and will be 40, and is not an overpowering pitcher. Is he worth another 11M contract? Can we not find a younger 5th starter. If the Yankees don’t play well the next few weeks, I’d go to Moose and ask him to waive the NTC[I think he has one?] to go to a contender, with the option that we’ll be in on discussions of re-obtaining him as a FA.
Farnsworth, Hawkins, Pavano is a no brainer-good riddance and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. I’d trade Farnsworth right now as his value has never been higher. Detroit needs a reliever. Farnsworth for Marcus Thames a former Yankee??
Pettitte might want to come back, and feel more comfortable retaining a lefty than Moose, but for 10M, not another 16M
Abreu if offered arbitration, likely to decline, netting us draft picks. Would also trade him now, as Mets, Diamondbacks, Dodgers all in the market for OF’ers.
I’d absolutely do the santana trade and santana contract.
“Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy were probably overvalued during the winter. Maybe Phil Hughes, too.”
Not sure probably is the right word. I’d say definitely were and still are. If you remove Kennedy and Hughes with their lousy starts and put in Santana’s, Yankees are either in 1st or at least in the running for 1st place even with the Wang injury.
the yankees need an ace and should get one for 2009.they have 80 something million coming off the books so an ace won’t kill the payroll and it will be a lot lower in 2009.with cc.wang,joba they will be set up very nice and relatively young.bring pettitte back,hughes as the 5th.they should also move posada to dh,trade matsui,get a catcher and first baseman and bench help.pitching wins and you need three great pitchers 1-3.ajax is looking good at AA for trenton,the game was on tv last night and he had 2 doubles and i think a walk.he will be ready soon for center field,montero should be a great catcher,he is a big boy with an 80 power ranking on the 20-80 scale.if they can just make the right moves over the next few years to replace the problem areas they should get better,younger and lower payroll but the key is the starting rotation.can you imagine cc,wang,joba,pettitte,mussina/hughes/kennedy/brackman?
125-50
July 18th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Dead wrong. Santana is good for 100 wins and 1200IPin the next 6 years. Kennedy and Hughes may not even have half of that.
And Melky is a fourth outfielder.
This board may not be the best place to rehearse your standup routine…
And, by the way, if Santana wins 100 games over the next six seasons for the Mets, it will have been a BAD, BAD deal for them.
For $137mil (or whatever it was), you’re paying for a guy to win 18-22 games per season, NOT 16-17.
Period.
And that’s why spending that kind of money on a pitcher is DUMB.
Pete why not mention santanas 3.10 ERA and that he is 6 with 116 strikeouts.. nice slant man.. state the facts.
to bartonbickle
I think the NYY lineup are slicing down a little bit more than Santana. Santana wouldn’t do much for
that and bring NYY to postseason(if the season end now), therefore what Cashman did is right.
cashman made the wrong move. melky is a 4th outfielder at best, kennedy sucks, and hughes is injury prone. Meanwhile santana is still a top 5 pitcher in the MLB. Im sure the yankees would love to do that trade right now.