Cashman made right move with Santana
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- July
- 18
There is no question, none whatsoever, that Johan Santana would have helped the Yankees this season. There is little question that Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy were probably overvalued during the winter. Maybe Phil Hughes, too.
But does anybody still think it would have been smart for the Yankees to trade the farm for Santana then give him the six-year, $137.5 million deal the Mets did?
The Mets are 11-9 in the games Santana has started and he has allowed 16 home runs in 130.2 innings. That’s 49 dingers in the last 349.2 innings if you’re keeping track at home. The guy still has brilliant moments, but he’s getting to a point where you can see a slide coming.
Much like Pedro Martinez, you have to wonder what this deal will look like in a few years. Brian Cashman, it would seem, made a smart play last winter.
This entry was posted
on Friday, July 18th, 2008 at 12:39 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Totally agree.
Cash should have gone after Haren however
Peter,
Santana has an ERA of 3.10 and is sixth in the NL in strikeouts. He has given up 4 runs or more in exactly 4 of his 20 starts. Please calm down about W/L records as that is more indicative of the Mets’ shoddy offense and erratic bullpen than anything Santana has done. Santana could very easily have 15+ wins right now.
He has been better than any pitcher on the Yankees this season.
another aging and overpaid vet is the last thing this team needs.
This team appears to be screwed as the vets are too old and the kids are not ready for prime time.
Damon, Matsui, Posada….how much more are you getting out of them ? Hughes, Kennedy, etc….are apparently not ready. There are no position players near ready as evidenced by the fact they brought up a scrappy bat boy and some other non-descript OFer…..
My hope is they spend the C.C. money on youung position players as piching is a crap shoot at best and you mine as well go with your homegrown
Barton….this is year 1 of that 6 year deal….let’s see how the last 4 years play out at $20+ per.
“He has been better than any pitcher on the Yankees this season.”
Aaaaaand you missed the entire point. The point is NOT ABOUT THIS YEAR. It’s about the six years remaining on his deal that are looking more risky by the day. The guy’s lost several MPH off his fastball already.
“My hope is they spend the C.C. money on youung position players”
Which young position players are available in exchange for money, pray tell?
“another aging and overpaid vet is the last thing this team needs”
or a premier LHP in his prime. but who’s really paying attention.
i’m on the fence. when you step back from just the numbers, Santana has been better than what his win totals say.
and i’m not adverse to high HR totals, as long as they arent given up in the wrong spots, or with a lot of men on base. solo HRs dont really hurt much.
i would have given up Hughes or Kennedy, but not both… of course, in hindsight and thru the vacuum of the 2008 season, it looks like we definately couldve used him and not missed much.
but this trade cant be viewed at now to conclusively say it was a good non-move or a bad non-move.
thats like watching i love the 90’s on VH1 when it was like 2004 or whatever. cant get nostalgic over something that happened a few years ago.
barton,
santana would have been a better pitcher for the yankees THIS year. not year 5, then phil hughes might be a solid #2 and santana will likely be mussina in early 2007.
the other thing is the luxury tax. a lot of teams are simply collecting yankee money and using it against us. we need to get under the limit. the next two years will help with the new stadium, we’ll see how much of an affect it will have on some smaller market teams that rely on luxury tax money to stay competitive
6 years of santana vs
6 years of hughes, kennedy, melky (or whomever) or what we obtain from them in those 6 years, + what we could have been spending that $20 mil/season on…
“i’m on the fence. when you step back from just the numbers, Santana has been better than what his win totals say.”
Maybe, maybe not. He’s pitching in the weaker league and his K/P and WHIP are both trending in the wrong direction. This is the highest WHIP he’s had in about 5 years. He has a low ERA but it would undoutedbly be higher if he had to face AL teams regularly.
There’s no way his strikeouts should be down and his hits up when he gets to face pitchers more often.
Not to mention the whole slower fastball thing.
This is the AL; Santana would not have helped our shoddy offense (as his powers apparently weren’t helping the Mets’ shoddy offense last month).
Anyone that uses Win/Loss to evaluate a pitcher knows absolutely nothing about baseball.
Santana is 29 years old. His contract goes until he is 36 or 37. To put that into perspective, the Yankees’ two best starting pitchers this season (if you don’t count Joba yet) are older than Santana will be at the end of his contract.
I understand why Cashman balked at the deal, and I don’t blame him for it. It’s one thing to pay out the ears for a player, and another thing entirely to do that on top of giving up significant talent. He probably made the right move, but not because Santana wouldn’t have helped. I have no doubt that he will be a viable starting pitcher for the entirety of his contract. It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise.
“Maybe, maybe not. He’s pitching in the weaker league and his K/P and WHIP are both trending in the wrong direction. This is the highest WHIP he’s had in about 5 years. He has a low ERA but it would undoutedbly be higher if he had to face AL teams regularly.”
ive watched most of his starts. i would definately say he’s been good enough to win more games, but then again, when you pair him with the yankees offense this season, you couldnt say he’d be any better off.
” It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise.”
Doesn’t matter that his velocity has gone down? Does it matter to you that he’s striking out less batters while issuing up more hits? Does that matter to you?
What would matter to you to suggest a disturbing trend going forward?
“It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future.”
Bull. How can you say that someone who’s losing velocity at TWENTY-NINE is going to continue to be a front-line pitcher for the next six years?
As I said all winter, it’s not that I didn’t want Santana on the team, but that I didn’t like the price being asked for him.
Also, The Dark Knight, you all need to see this movie. I can’t get over its sheer awesomeness.
I would seriously skip a Yankees game to go see it again. That’s how awesome it is.
Santana obviously isn’t going to escape the aging process down the line, but there is no way you can try to argue that the Mets aren’t better for having made the trade for Santana. They are 11-9 in his starts, but how many of those losses have been because the bullpen blew a quality start from Santana earlier in the season? If you believe it’s some kind of jinx, that’s up to you. It could also be that a Joe Smith isn’t capable of pitching in a big spot or that Billy Wagner should not have been an all-star.
It didn’t bother me at the time that the Yanks didn’t trade for Santana, but he would be one of the few pitchers in the game today that I would’ve considered making that deal for.
I have no doubt that he will be a viable starting pitcher for the entirety of his contract. It doesn’t even matter if his velocity has gone down or his HR rate has gone up. He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise
What?
and who called him “Phil Franchise”?
The same can be said of A-Rod’s outrageous ten-year (!!) deal. A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball to a guy in his late thirties/early forties for many years. Plus he his clubhouse poision. A disastrous deal.
“Santana obviously isn’t going to escape the aging process down the line, but there is no way you can try to argue that the Mets aren’t better for having made the trade for Santana.”
Who’s making that argument? The argument is that Santana has already begun to tangibly aging. His fastball is ALREADY a couple MPH slower. His strikeouts are down and his WHIP is up. How you any team feel good about having signed a pitcher with those trends to a 6 year big money deal?
“How you any”
How *could* any
lol at the Johan defenders…. You were the guys raving about that we need an ace in our rotation. according to his numbers he isn’t that ace you wanted. Cashman wins this one.
Roger Clemens had a 1.87 ERA in 211 IP in ‘05 with diminished velocity and a lower k/9 rate. Santana will not suffer from his diminished velocity because of his ability to throw several different offspeed pitches for strikes. His strongest pitch has arguably always been his circle-change. If he is able to keep his fastball at 92-93 while throwing his change where it is, he will not suffer at all.
I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career? Do you guys hate the Mets (or love the Yankees) that much that you would ignore the amount of positives that easily outweigh his HR rate and W/L totals?
so far cash looks good but ill give johan till end of next year….could still be adjusting…but for that money there should be no adjustment period…..what crud thatr bonds rumor was….lets start a new one maybe well get on sportscenter….yankees close to signing sammy sosa = O
“A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball”
Actually, his contract is structured so that his salary declines after the next few years. Also, position players generally age more gracefully than pitchers. Also, given the marketing opportunities that are likely to arise given his HR record chase, it made no sense to let him leave as he was approaching the record. If they were going to give him 7-8 years, it would have been dumb not to give him 10.
The same can be said of A-Rod’s outrageous ten-year (!!) deal. A-Rod’s great now, but his productivity will decline, and years from now the Yanks will still be paying the highest salary in baseball to a guy in his late thirties/early forties for many years. Plus he his clubhouse poision. A disastrous deal.
Laughs at post rolls dead
……wakes up from the death still laughs at post 
….kicks the bucket the spirit comes down burst into laughter at post again 
A-Rod’s contract is a gamble that he’ll break the HR record as a Yankee; if he does it, it’ll pay for itself ten times over.
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career? Do you guys hate the Mets (or love the Yankees) that much that you would ignore the amount of positives that easily outweigh his HR rate and W/L totals?”
His ERA+ this year which is supposed to be a prime year is 130. They’re paying for the prime years Santana and he hasn’t pitched like the prime years Santana.
Why are you ignoring the fact that his strikeout rate is declining while his WHIP is going up?
In fact his WHIP has been going up for the past 4 years.
Can the Mets even insure the back half of Santana’s contact?
“If he is able to keep his fastball at 92-93 while throwing his change where it is, he will not suffer at all. ”
He already can’t get keep his fastball at 92-23. You think he’ll be able to get back some velo at age 33?
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career?”
No. That we’re glad that Yanks didn’t trade a bundle of young talent for the right to had a huge 6 year extension to a guy who, while he’s still succeeding right now, is showing obvious signs of physical decline at age 29.
I really don’t see how you can argue “Brian Cashman, it would seem, made a smart play last winter” unless your argument revolves around Santana not being worth the money in the future. As far as statistics are concerned, Santana has been highly effective and Hughes/Kennedy/Melky have not. If you make the argument that down the line Hughes will be better, that’s one thing, but it seems silly to declare this a good non-deal right now at this arbitrary point, following a bad Santana start. If anything, it looked better immediately after it was made, before both young yankees pitchers looked highly ineffective (and injured) to begin the year.
It will take years to tell who made the right deal. Declaring it either way arbitrarily right now seems ridiculous.
So did Richie show up for the work out? Also who isn’t there? WHo was sent out or down?
Oakland got 4 really good players for Haren the Yanks could not match that offer, not even close..
Santana would fit in on the Yanks; a aging star, best days behind him, a really expensive and long contract that will have him making big bucks until he is 36, the only thing missing is Santana is still productive at least for another year or 2.
The bloggers on this site love those type of players and contracts…
It is true Santna would be the Yanks best pitcher this year if he was on the team, my questions is so what?? FOr $135 mill. he better be.. Joba is 22, moose is 39 and Pettitte is like 36 of course Santana should be there best pitcher but maybe not if Wang was not hurt???Wang costs $4 mill a yr. not $15 mill…..
Again Hughes is done he never will be anything he is almost 22 yrs old, they should DFA him, like the Met should have DFA’d Pelfrey a month or so ago……….
If the Mets do not win this year they will not win for a lifetime, they are old and have nothing in the minors………..
“A-Rod’s contract is a gamble that he’ll break the HR record as a Yankee; if he does it, it’ll pay for itself ten times over.”
1) Probably not a gamble. He’ll break the record barring injury.
2) When he does, it won’t pay for itself 2 times over, nevermind ten.
http://www.mlbnewsonline.com/2008/07/barry-bonds-deal-hinges-on-hideki.html
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if this is so UNTrue, why won’t it go away ?
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Peter, you’re sounding more and more desperate in an attempt to prove you’ve been right along in backing Cashman’s idiotic non-trade this past offseason. What is Santana’s ERA? How many innings does he average when he goes out there? How old is he? And what, exactly, have Hughes, Kennedy and Melky done in the majors???? If anything, this season should have proven to anyone with half a brain that Cashman made yet another gigantic boneheaded blunder in not making that deal. Santana is still a top-of-the rotation starter and likely will continue for years. He gives up a few homers? So did lots of hall-of-famers. He still almost always gives you 6-7 good innings (how many times have Hughes and Kennedy done that?), and he’s historically been great in the 2nd half. You seriously cite Melky? Melque-Toast? Who’s hitting… .240? He’s a fourth outfielder, fercryinoutloud. Just because you’ve been touting Phil Phenom or whatever you called him for so long that you can’t go back now doesn’t change the reality: Kennedy has been a major flop and is not highly regarded by scouts anymore. Melky is a fourth outfielder masquerading as the starting CF of the Yankees only due to Cashman’s blundering, and Hughes has been Pavanoesque so far. This is why we are a .500 team. Give it up already!!!!
“Why are you ignoring the fact that his strikeout rate is declining while his WHIP is going up? ”
Because he’s an ACE. And Roger Clemens dominated the heinous 05 AL Central at age 974 with the help of steroids, so Johan Santana will be immune to aging as well.
Look, Santana is currently a great pitcher. I don’t think anyone questions that. The issue is that this was a 6 year deal at $23m per (the highest paid player except for ARod). Does anyone believe he will be worth that in year 6? 5? Even 4?
And do you remember all the people here screaming “BUT HE’S THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL!!!!”. Well, year 1 of the contract, and he may be the 8th, or 9th, or 10th best pitcher in baseball.
If the Sox got him, they may have cemented 2 or 3 more WS titles, but they passed too… even knowing the Yankees might get him. Think about that. Cashman is not dumb and neither is Theo. Omar is not dumb, but he was desparate.
Pete (or any of us really) are not questioning that Santana is a very valuable player now. We are looking at this deal, in it’s entirety. The loss of prospects; the annual salary; the length of the contract. I would think that it would take 3 or 4 years for people to really see that it was best for us to pass. Maybe Pete is saying we will see that in less then 3 years.
It is indeed troubling that Santana’s WHIP is up, his K rate is down and his velocity is down. That would seem to indicate that he will regress in the coming years. However, its tough to say how much he actually will regress. Its possible that he will continue to be a top of the rotation starter despite these problems.
Right now I’d say he is still an ace. If he pitches like he has this year for the entirety of his contract then the trade/signing is a win for the Mets (IMO). Thats a big “if” though, its impossible to say if he is done regressing or if he will continue to get worse as the years go by.
“2) When he does, it won’t pay for itself 2 times over, nevermind ten.”
When you take into account his production over the course of the contract, it seems to me there’s a pretty good chance it will have been worth it.
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I read the following on rotoworld.com:
Former WBZ sports director Bob Lobel said Thursday that Manny Ramirez was fined “a six-figure amount” for his June altercation with Red Sox traveling secretary Jack McCormick.
Lobel went on the suggest that Ramirez may have taken three straight called strikes in a pinch-hit at-bat on July 6 “to send a message” to the Red Sox. “The bat on the shoulder for the three pitches from Mariano Rivera, that was a big [expletive] to the Red Sox after the fine,” Lobel said. “I’m just telling you, there are things in the front office that are perceived. I’m saying that there is a strong feeling that that [three-pitch strikeout] was the message to the Red Sox and it’s a strong feeling that that’s unacceptable.”
Thats pretty crazy..
raymagnetic ®™, there is still plenty of baseball to be played and Santana is a classic second-half pitcher. His current WHIP is far beyond his career averages, so I’d expect that to go down. His velocity is hovering around 92-94 and once again, even if it drops down to 90 in two years or so, he will be able to get outs with his change.
whozat, earlier I said that I agree with Cashman for not pulling the trigger. I just don’t agree with him because Santana isn’t or wouldn’t be effective. He will be a top of the rotation starter for the duration (or at the very least, the majority) of his contract and you’re exaggerating or kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Last time I checked Hughea and Kennedy were 0-7 and Melky isn’t hitting even .260 and Marquez has below-average numbers in AAA.
Cashman messed up
Rebecca,
Seriously. A lot of people here would give you a movie ticket a day to keep you away from the Yankees! j/k
Really jealous right now, but I’ll wait patiently to see it on DVD. Just watched Sweeney Todd. Always love a good Burton/Depp collaboration, but it was gross more than anything.
Next is “There will be Blood”.
Sexson looks like he hasn’t been on the roster yet, so I’m guessing there’s nothing official yet.
I got to give that MLBnewsguy credit he just won’t STFU, even the Daily News personally asked Yankees FO personel they said No.
BTW Sammy Sosa vs LHP career .296/.390/.559 for what it’s worth
Don Vito why is it the only site reporting it? It is garbage. Why would Yankee officials yell and scream at someone that it isn’t true?
It is a garbage site looking for hits.
Yes. If you define the right move as resulting in missing the playoffs and exposing our “prized prospects” as being tremendously over-rated, then yes. This was the right move.
Kudos to Cashman.
Fredo: I dunno, I’m not convinced that anybody can break A-Rod’s potential record anytime soon. So there should be a good amount of time for the Yankees to mooch off record-holder merchandizing. Besides, as long as inflation keeps going, the face $$ value will be easy to pump up xP
Lessee…A-Rod’s megacontract is 275 million…plus 30 million for milestones…so overall, 305 million. I’m confident that the Yankees will garner 3 billion US dollars by the time A-Rod’s potential HR record gets broken.
A more appropriate name for Phil Hughes = American Idle Junior.
I dont believe the Yankees were ever going to get Santana without paying thru the nose to get him. It seemed obvious to me that the Twins were banking on the Red Sox to drive up the price on Santana the minute the Yankees were ready to go to the table and talk about a deal.
They banked on the Yankees fearing so much that he might go to Boston that they would “jump” and give up whatever pool of talent was being asked for Santana.
But the Yankees showed their resolve when it was reported that the Red Sox might have been close to a deal. They never panicked. Boston never really wanted him … otherwise, they would have had him. They were playing possum with the Yankees and Cashman refused to blink.
So in the end, the Yankees made the smart move. If Santana were a free agent, I could have seen them paying him the contract the Mets gave him. Likewise, if Santana were under contract for the next couple of years, I also could have seen the Yankees putting a deal together to get him.
The fact that they had to trade top talent AND renegotiate his contract was too much. Boston knew this too and refused to deal for him for the same reason.
I laugh at people who think that Omar Minaya was so shrewed in getting Santana … please … the Twins completely overplayed their hand and ended up not having either the Red Sox or Yankees interested in getting Santana. I love that both teams just walked away and publically said they didnt want to trade for him.
The Twins looked like fools and ended up getting crap talent from the Mets in what ended being a glorified free agent signing.
*from A-Rod and homerun related merchandise
Wow if Manny did that WOW
“Yankees only due to Cashman’s blundering, and Hughes has been Pavanoesque so far. This is why we are a .500 team. Give it up already!!!!”
Well being that the Yankees are on pace to score more than 200 runs fewer this year than last year I would say that has A LOT to do with their current record.
“When you take into account his production over the course of the contract, it seems to me there’s a pretty good chance it will have been worth it.”
Me too. Being worth it and paying for itself 10 times over, as someone suggested, are two very different results.
“He will be a top of the rotation starter, with lots of strikeouts and a low ERA for the forseeable future.”
Just how far into the future can you foresee? Please tell us about the future careers of the players we didn’t sent to the Twins and the players we’ll pick up with the money we’re not spending on Santana.
santana will be a solid pitcher for years. an ace worth the money, probably not in about two years. but he still we be a great member of their team. Im glad we didnt do it, but the mets honestly don’t look that stupid. Good job by them, they have won 10 straight
The Bonds to the Bombers story won’t quiet down because the clown who is floating it is enjoying all of the mindless web traffic he is funneling to his site.
People always fall for the Big Lie.
“He will be a top of the rotation starter for the duration (or at the very least, the majority) of his contract and you’re exaggerating or kidding yourself if you think otherwise.”
No, I’m not kidding myself. Diminished fastball velocity at age 29. Rising WHIP for the last FOUR seasons. Declining strikeout rates. I look at these and say “Wow, those are classic signs of a pitcher in physical decline. Oh, and he’s moved to the NL now and is still showing these signs? Geez…that’s worrying.” You look at these trends and say “Oh, but he’s JOHAN, so he’ll be the top-10 pitcher for the next 6 years.”
Who’s the one that’s more likely to be kidding himself?
Jesse,
Can you explain adjusting to NL? Pitching to pitchers? Batting 2-3 times per game?
I’m not down on Santana, but he should be killing NL hitters.
greg mandel was patient with bernie williams also.. he wanted to trade him after 1/2 a year of his 3 yr journey to become a very very good outfielder.
yeah Hughes is Pavano…
again the patience with young players from spoiled yankeeland is astounding… all you have to do is look at what Pelfrey has done the last 8 weeks or CLiff Lee in Cleveland this yr….
the accumen of the talent evaluators on this site is amazing..
santana would have cost 4 players, his salary, and a luxury tax hit of .50 on each dollar spent. that is to high of a price to pay even for Babe Ruth, the passing on Santana is a no brainer to think we are still going around in circles on this shows how stupid the pro santana signing people are…. No clue to reality, no clue to a budget, etc.
BTW the AROD signing will be a bad signing under any circumstances when you figure out how him hitting all those HR’s will correspond to more moolah for the Yanks fill me in.. All signings should be based on 1 criteria if it helped the team win in the short and long term, forget about all the marketing BS…..
“Me too. Being worth it and paying for itself 10 times over, as someone suggested, are two very different results.”
Oh, that was hyperbole and you know it
Nick in SF, I can see far enough into the future, based on past statistics and trends with starting pitchers throughout MLB history that a 29 year old ace will not regress into a bottom of the rotation starter by the time he is 36 years old.
In fact, I can see that most pitchers with the type of stuff and success that Santana has, tend to play at high levels throughout their 30s and some into their 40s.
You have, like others here have ignored the fact that I said I still agree with Cashman for not making the deal because of the money + talent involved. That said, if he could have traded Kennedy and Melky for Santana, I’m not happy that he didn’t.
“I don’t really understand what you people are trying to say? That a guy with a career ERA+ of 160 is not worth having for the prime of his career?”
who are you talking about?
there has never in the history of baseball been a starter with a career ERA+ of 160.
Put it this way: Santana IS diminishing. He is not as good as he used to be, I think we can all see that now. With that said, I don’t think anyone knows at this point if Phil Hughes will ever be as good as Santana. Chances are he won’t.
yeah, cashman the genius. architect of a 50-45 team that makes its big deadline splash of richie sexson.
/baiting cashman to make big splash at deadline…
“I got to give that MLBnewsguy credit he just won’t STFU, even the Daily News personally asked Yankees FO personel they said No. ‘.
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and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Patrick I had to bold it, this needs some attention.
Well, it started off as hyperbole, but I got to thinking that if baseball is a 6 billion dollar industry now, with the economy going downwards…
If Selig and future commishes don’t mess up and inflation keeps going, billions won’t be a hard figure to reach
And I still think there will be a huge window of time to enjoy A-Rod’s status as homerun king.
Cashman is too scared to make any meaningful moves, and in my view is a very poor GM. Just what has he done to improve the Yankees other than to stock the farm with some pitching?
Santana would have been a huge asset this year and going forward. When you have a budget of $200+M, paying $20M/year for an ace is totally reasonable. His W/L record with the Mets is not indicative of what he could bring to a good team. Assuming a winning team is the goal, even if you only got 3 or 4 good years from him, he would have been a bargain.
Having said that, the Yankees have many holes and Santana would only fill one of them. These holes were obvious in the winter and do-nothing Cashman has done nothing other than grab other teams’ cast-offs. We deserve better. The Yankees’ ownership deserves better for their investments. It is time to find a GM who actually knows something about talent and winning.
again the santana signing by the mets for them was a good signing there circumstances were different the nthe yanks…
“BTW the AROD signing will be a bad signing under any circumstances when you figure out how him hitting all those HR’s will correspond to more moolah for the Yanks fill me in..”
Merchandise? Increased ticket sales? Better ratings? You don’t think a HR record chase generates more interest?
The deal isn’t based on the HR chase. The extra years are. He’s certainly helping the team win more over the short and long term. It’s those last few years that are questionable, and he’ll still probably be a productive DH at that point. The HR chase revenue helps offset the cost of those seasons.
whozat you keep citing statistics for the first half from a pitcher who, throughout his career has been better in the second half. Not only are you using a small sample size, but you’re jumping the gun.
This is a question you shouldn’t even need to ask. If the Mets were willing to pay twice for the same guy, good for them. they looked awfully good at this point LAST year too, didn’t they? or does Jerry Manuel know the secret to life?
I would have signed Santana. I would not have traded my top prospects for him AND then had to sign him. Same goes for any player. If they wind up being not available, then it wasn’t meant to be. If it means my team loses a few extra games in the short term, it just means we’re in better and sounder shape to actually become something in the future.
Again, anyone who NEEDS to make the playoffs this year at all costs is welcome to stop posting and jump on another team’s bandwagon. Really. There’s the door. ——>
and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Listen man it really doesn’t matter the majority of Yankees fans DO NOT WANT HIM HERE !
I never even heard of that mlbnewsonline site before the Bonds crap they are spewing.
So basically-good job by them. Now I know about it, though I probably won’t visit it…
“Im glad we didnt do it, but the mets honestly don’t look that stupid.”
i don’t think the Mets look stupid at all.
sometimes a trade can make more sense for one team vs. another.
“With that said, I don’t think anyone knows at this point if Phil Hughes will ever be as good as Santana. Chances are he won’t.”
Yeah, but the contribution of Hughes plus Kennedy plus whichever players they would have had to trade in order to fill CF for this season might certainly equal what Santana brings over the next six years.
Wow, what is going on with manny and the Sox?
“whozat you keep citing statistics for the first half from a pitcher who, throughout his career has been better in the second half. Not only are you using a small sample size, but you’re jumping the gun.”
Fine, go look at his stats from the second half of last year too.
Pray tell, does he start throwing his fastball faster in the second half as well?
“Having said that, the Yankees have many holes and Santana would only fill one of them. These holes were obvious in the winter and do-nothing Cashman has done nothing other than grab other teams’ cast-offs. ”
really, the “holes” at 2B, C, SS, RF, and CF were obvious this winter? the hole left by Wang was obvious?
i’m calling BS.
besides Santana, i remember everyone here thinking the biggest offseason priority was the bullpen.
arod making more money for the yanks, I do not believe it.. the yanks are presently by far the most popular team and I assume there merchandise sales reflect this.. They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straigth years.. the marketing angle on the arod signing to me is all blue sky and totally unproveable….
Yeah smart move. Instead of having a proven cy young winner. We have 2 hurt “What if’s” and a “maybe” centerfielder who occasionaly makes a great catch.
As of now I don’t know how you can even argue this.
If it’s about payroll, give me a break. What team have you been following?
Maybe in a couple years, it’ll be a great move. Right now though, we have Sidney Ponson in the rotation. Nothing else really needs to be said.
Patrick:
I thought Ramirez intentionally sat with his bat on his shoulder from the get go. Only I thought it was because he was aggravated that he had to pinch hit on an off day. He once refused to PH on an off day back in 2004.
If they fined him a quarter million or so, that at bat makes even more sense to me.
Brandon (Jeter GIDP: *15 even in All Star Games) (Johan HR count: *16)
July 18th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
and IF the Yankees FO told the Daily News NO, then since they ALWAYS tell the truth…you know for SURE that The MLBNewsGuy must be a bold faced liar….right ?.
.
I mean FO people NEVER lie to the media about ongoing negotiations…..that is just totally unheard of !
Listen man it really doesn’t matter the majority of Yankees fans DO NOT WANT HIM HERE !
.
” OK…I get it…so if the majority of Yankees fans don’t want him here, there is NO chance he will be signed. Got it. I am learning a lot today “
Please will someone answer this question?
Example Abreu in order to get picks for him you need to offer arbitration and there’s a lot of chatter about this. But nowhere does anyone say what happens if he accepts? If Abreu accepts can the Yankees trade him and if so when?
“Patrick I had to bold it, this needs some attention.”
Thanks, I agree. Manny is a nut. I have no doubt thats true, it was odd to me that he didn’t swing in that situation.
Hi guys. Since you’re the experts I have a quick question. I want to go to a Yankee game on Tuesday 22nd. Who’s going to be Yankees starter? I’d appreciate your help. Thanks.
SA,
John Henry and Manny are in a war of words. But we’ve seen this tired old act many times. They’ll kiss and make up.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3493031
“santana would have cost 4 players, his salary, and a luxury tax hit of .50 on each dollar spent. that is to high of a price to pay even for Babe Ruth, the passing on Santana is a no brainer to think we are still going around in circles on this shows how stupid the pro santana signing people are…. No clue to reality, no clue to a budget, etc.”
I don’t know about you but I’d sign Babe Ruth for that, what the heck. With Babe Ruth playing, we could fill up 2 stadiums a day and he could fill our pitching and outfield void simultaneously!!
Cashman, GET IT DONE!!
Also, calling one group of people stupid for having “uninformed” opinions makes sense because your opinion is clearly well backed up by years and years in baseball front office work I’m sure…
I doubt any of us are really well informed enough to judge this definitively, but we speculate because it’s fun. No need for mindless name calling.
“Wow, what is going on with manny and the Sox?”
Who knows. But I know a way he can really piss them off if they don’t pick up his option. He’d look good DH’ing in pinstripes for a couple of years.
even with rasner and ponson in the rotation and after getting less then nothing from hughes nd kennedy the yanks would not be in this situation if the whole offense did not fail miserably.. talk all you want the only guy who has performed up to or exceeded expectations is Damon… jeter, jorge, arod, abreu, matsui, cano, and on and on have all underperformed..
you guys are blinded by giambis’s #’s the last few years to think they are so great this yr. he is on pace to not drive in 100 runs hitting 5th in the order….his BA with RISP is AROD like.. the failures off this offense almost thruout the whole lineup leads me to beleive the yare getting old and regressing unless they turn it around immedialy..
you read the stat today they have the 26th best OPS with RISP. the 4 teams behind them all stink beyond belief….
this is the story of the Yanks this season the utter and complete failure of there offense and this includes the weak hitting Derek Jeter…
Ask yourself this question? What, besides money, would the Yanks have been giving up for Santana? Hughes-Kennedy (if they even had to put the two of them together in the deal) and Melky? Granted, Hughes may still turn out to be an ace, but Kennedy and Melky? And will Hughes ever be the kind of pitcher Santana is? Will he ever stay healthy? A bird in the hand…. and Santana is a bird in the hand. He’s a front of the rotation lefty, and even if Peter wants to trot this out every time Santana has a rough outing, it still won’t change that. The final answer on this deal won’t be known for years, but anyone being honest would have to say that right now, that looks like a really bad non-move by Cashman. Oh, and Jorge, who exactly died and made you arbiter of who is a Yankee fan and who should use “the door”???
“la salamanderrr la salamanderrrr” I would like to have Santana right now…Melky is useless and our young phenom is ALWAYS hurt…we already have a gun slinger in Joba…a rotation of Santana Wang Pettitte Joba Moose…pretty sick…Cash has done a TERRRRIBLE job signing free agents and some of the non moves he’s made ::Josh Beckett::
“talk all you want the only guy who has performed up to or exceeded expectations is Damon… jeter, jorge, arod, abreu, matsui, cano, and on and on have all underperformed..”
No. A-rod is having another potential MVP season. Giambi is having a fantastic season, Matsui was great before he was injured and you can’t blame Jorge - he was injured for over a month (and he still is injured). Jeter, Abreu, Cano, Melky need to step up though.
Thanks for the link mel.
Someone died?
People have to understand it’s not strictly what Hughes-Kennedy-Melky-Marquez do v. what Santana does. It’s also what were/are those guys worth, and did the Yanks get the best return for them.
Trading those four guys for a pitcher whose skills are already diminishing AND requires the exact kind of long-term contract that killed this team from 2002 to present is not a good investment on those guys.
You people with no patience might have given up on Hughes and IPK, but the league hasn’t. Those guys have value. Still.
Of course the Yanks would have been better this year with Santana, but so what? They still would be a flawed team. I am happy to have ownership/management thinking long-term, not giving up everything to make a run this year with a very flawed team.
And, remember, the Mets gave up half of what the Twins wanted from the Yanks. Gomez is a slightly better Brett Gardner, Humber is nothing, and the only good prospect is 18 and in A ball. Plus, the Mets are an old team with an empty farm system. For them, this year is their best chance.
For the Yanks, given everything, this year was always going to be tough, even with Santana.
Big Cat, you made my point.
The Yanks didn’t get Josh Beckett for one very simple reason: The farm system was empty and the Yanks didn’t have the prospects to get the deal done.
They do now, thanks to the plan the last 2 1/2 years to stock the system and not get stuck under big contracts.
Yankee fans who think that Cashman can snap his fingers and will other teams to put their best players on our roster are delusional.
And by the way, Peter, comparing the Santana trade to the Martinez signing… a really bad red herring. Martinez was what? 32 when the Mets signed him? And had had numerous arm problems. Santana doesn’t turn 30 until next March, and has been very healthy. No comparison.
Mel…ur right he should be dominating….im not stickin up for him with that contract…and i always hear johan blame others for his losses…yesterday it was the weather and such….130 million….all these contracts is sports have gotten out of wack….300 million …. maybe im just envious
Mel…ur right he should be dominating….im not stickin up for him with that contract…and i always hear johan blame others for his losses…yesterday it was the weather and such….130 million….all these contracts is sports have gotten out of wack….300 million …. maybe im just envious
Stop hating on santana, its easy to talk bad about him coming off a bad game. The yankees wish they would have made that move because they are going to give big money to less of a pitcher in CC when free agency comes. Santana just turned 29 and hes in the prime of his career, to say there is a slide coming is stupidity.
I’m not ready to say Phil Hughes has been overvalued.
You’re insane if you think you can make that judgement right now.
He’s going to live up to the value that Cashman and others in the Yankee organization have placed on him. He still has excellent stuff with moxy and people forget he just turned 22 only a few weeks ago.
Everyone seems to forget that it was baseball as a whole that had put Hughes on nearly everyones lists as the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. If Hughes doesn’t produce it wasn’t just the Yankees who placed this value on him.
henry, if the Yanks sign CC, they won’t be giving up three prospects and their starting cf for him. Big difference.
“Cash has done a TERRRRIBLE job signing free agents and some of the non moves he’s made ::Josh Beckett::”
this is a dumb comment.
John Mara is trying to justify why he needs to have psl’s. What a joke! Just wait this is a domino affect. First the Giants, than the Jets, than the Yankees.
Those stupid ****
Says you ‘own’ your seats. So if I had seats there could I take it home after every game? no. So I don’t own them.
What are PSL’s?
This post sounds like a battered wife who thinks she “deserved” to get hit.
Melky stinks. Who knows if Phil and IPK turn into anything? Santana is a proven ace.
And why do fans care about money?
1. It is not my money.
2. The Yankees waste so much money it is unbelieveable. Clemens was a waste last year. Pavano, etc. Even if Santana is awful in the last couple of years, a couple of World Series titles would be worth it.
People, please stop acting like the Yankees money is your money!
i dont want santana nor did i personally…nor do i want CC
…and when a man makes 130 million to throw a ball i can hate all i want
Cashman wouldn’t make a trade for Beckett (of that time period) today, he would not give up his prospects for him.
I’m actually glad because I can’t stand him, but that is all beside the point.
The real point is Cashman has done some good with building up the farm, but he might now be too attached to them to allow them to go to make the team better. He was never sold on the Santanamana trade from the beginning. Hank was.
personal seat license.
Mitch, to say Santana has “diminishing skills”… what do you base that on? One bad outing? You guys can keep saying these catch-phrases over and over and it doesn’t make it true. The guy is 29 years old, has always been a better pitcher in the 2nd half and has had a pretty darn good first half despite his won-loss, which is skewed by bad bullpen support and bad play by the Mets as a team in the first half. And I’m sorry, but when judging a trade, you do have to judge what the players involved are doing. To get a top of the rotation lefty — how many of those are there in the game? — at age 29, for three guys who either are not healthy, have underperformed (to say the least) or is a .240 hitting slap hitting outfielder… Right now, Hughes is the only one in that group you’d worry MIGHT make you regret the deal. And no, this would not have been the kind of long-term deal the Yanks have regretted (like Pavano, or Igawa, or one could argue Damon or Giambi). Is Mussina a deal you regret? Cause he was 32 when we signed him to that long-term deal…
“Yankee fans who think that Cashman can snap his fingers and will other teams to put their best players on our roster are delusional.”
You mean they can’t trade Bobby Abreu and Ross Ohlendoff and get James Loney? Poppycock I say!
lets go yankees
Surprisingly, pitching has NOT been the Yankees problem. And no matter how good Santana is, if your team doesnt score, you dont win, as he has found out on the Mets. His record would be no better now on the Yankees. And you never trade 4 players for 1, especially a pitcher.
“personal seat license.”
Isn’t that just an extra fee you pay for season tickets?
Last I checked we are over the half way mark of the season. If Santana is a second half pitcher, he needs to really start stepping it up.
Hank’s been in baseball all of what, 6 months? He’s a horse guy.
Although Buss’s drunkard son did insist on drafting Andrew Bynum…
People. When you talk abotu wastes of money, you dont know before that these players will be a waste. Pavano is the perfect example. They would have never forseen this would be how he turned out. It would be interesting to see if they did make the deal, and Santana ended up on the DL. You would all be crying that the Yankees screwed up trading 4 players with potential for one.
Hmm, personal seat licenses sounds quite ludicrous
On the other hand, there will always be customers who’ll pay however much is asked
Patrick; that extra fee is anywhere from $1,000 to $20,000. If you don’t think the Yankees and Mets aren’t paying close attention you are foolish. This isn’t good at all.
fuhgoobagaz - Last time I check Johan wasn’t so good the second half of last season.
patrick for some at the new Giants stadium that extra fee is 20K PER seat on top of cost of season tickets
Coach’s Club: 2,113 seats, 2.7 percent of stadium, $700 ticket, $20,000 PSL
Field 1: 2,049 seats, 2.6 percent, $160 ticket, $20,000 PSL
Field 2: 7,760 seats, 9.9 percent, $140 ticket, $10,000 PSL
Field 3: 19,732 seats, 25.2 percent, $120 ticket, $5,000 PSL
Mezzanine Club A: 3,052 seats, 3.9 percent, $500 ticket, $12,500 PSL
Mezzanine Club B: 4,033 seats, 5.1 percent, $400 ticket, $7,500 PSL
Mezzanine: 10,905 seats, 13.9 percent, $120 ticket, $4,000 PSL
Loge: 2,625 seats, 3.3 percent, $105 ticket, $5,000 PSL
Terrace 1: 14,388 seats, 18.3 percent, $95 ticket, $1,000 PSL
Terrace 2: 11,719 seats, 15.0 percent, $85 ticket, $1,000 PSL
“personal seat license.”
Isn’t that just an extra fee you pay for season tickets?
Basically, yeah…
You pay your PSL…then you pay for your season tickets.
With the Giants PSL’s run from $1,000 to $20,000 per seat. Depends where…
I don’t think the Jets announced anything official yet, but it’s coming
For the Cowboys, the PSL price is even crazier….
I’m pretty sure PSL’s are prevelant all around the league in football. I don’t see what the big deal is. Supply and demand..
bartonbickle July 18th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
…”His velocity is hovering around 92-94 and once again, even if it drops down to 90 in two years or so, he will be able to get outs with his change.”
I watched the highlights of the Met’s game today and they showed Santana’s fastball at 89. Oh BTW, that pitch went for a HR.
So you might want to get off that Santana bandwagon Bud. This guy has been regressing since June of last year. He’s still good so I’m not saying his contract will be
“Zito-esque” but the Mets will regret it in less time than you think.
are there any BASEBALL teams that have PSL’s. I know at least in Philly with the new stadium they did not. Not sure about some of the other recent openings ie Pittsburgh, St Louis etc.
I would think that neither the Yankees or the Mets want to be the first team in baseball to have PSL
On the other hand, there will always be customers who’ll pay however much is asked
That’s the thing, I can’t afford it…but somewhere…someone will spend that much.
I need a sugar daddy!
Also the SF Giants already have it.
On the radio they were talking about maybe PSL’s for the Yankees and Mets, and the dude so no.
But ya never know..maybe down the road things change…
Here are the baseball teams that have some type of PSL:
* Arizona Diamondbacks Legacy Club Seat Licenses
* San Diego Padres Founders Club Memberships
* San Francisco Giants CSL Charter Seat Licenses
* St. Louis Cardinals Ballpark Founders Club Seat Licenses
I’ll be damned, but as long as it raises profits, gotta tip the cap to another achievement of capitalism
gayle,
According to wikipedia, the D-backs, Padres, Giants and Cardinals all have PSL’s. Also it seems like most NFL teams have them too. I would be shocked if the Yankees and Mets don’t have them in the new stadiums.
Phil Hughes is not just over-valued he is insanely over-valued him and Melky for Haren would have been a great move.
Sorry, Cash fumbled the ball. First of all give Santana a pass on learning a new league. If he stayed in the AL he would be more comfortable and knowledgeable about the hitters.
Take the Yankees 2 best pitchers (not including Chamberlain or Wang)
Petitte (the guy they signed that allowed them to not have to get Santana) his ERA is 4.03 and Mussina ERA is 3.61 Santanas is 3.10
In addition Santana would be a guy that would have saved the bullpen better than Rasner, Hughes, Ponson, Kennedy etc.
I would have made that trade, if one of the top two pitchers in the AL is available I think you need to go after him. We have no idea what Kennedy and Hughes will do, but we do know what Santana can do.
When Brian Schneider is behind the plate for Santana, hitters are hitting .267/.311/.444 with 12 HR and 17 2B in 13 starts.
When Ramon Castro is behind the plate for Santana, hitters are hitting .209/.280/.270 with just 2 HR and 3 2B in 6 starts.
Phil Hughes for all the talk about his stuff seems to only have the following a low 90’s fastball with some movement and an erratic curveball. I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.
The only reason why I say they will not unless they do it a very strange way is that I know people who have full season tickets for BOTH the mets and the Yankees and they have already gone through the process of tickets for next year ie picking out their seats knowing how much t hey will costs (They did it through meetings with the sales staff) and neither or them were told anything about a PSL
No! sorry Pete. Don’t agree at all.
Santana is better than his record. Wagner’s blown him some saves. The Mets are a circus act, Johann’s era is very good.
And replacing Melky in the OF could only have forced Cashman eventually to find a better bat. Melky is worthless as a hitter, there’s plenty better players out there.
IPK now has very little value because he just can’t take the stress of the ML.
Neither Melky, nor IPK has any significant trade value now - they did have, but not now. Hughes is probably not going to excite many GMs either.
Both moves would have given us more wins this 1st half — probably enough to put us in a strong position at the break. Removing Melky alone would have made the team stronger, and more consistent. Santana is a 2nd half guy, we could go right on a tear now.
I know the Mets fans whine about Johann, but they are dead wrong. The poor guy has had to put up with not only fan criticism but a circus act of a clubhouse.
The salary? The Yanks would make the money back with him. If they continue to field such an inconsistent and unexciting team, they’ll not be maximizing the revenue potential of the New Stadium at this rate. So it’s not money saved, not at all.
In all probability Cashman has cost us the season with deluded faith in untried players who do not have the skills, and with no back-up plan whatsoever.
Two words Cashman needs kicked into his backside “OPPORTUNITY COST”.
yeah why would the Yanks worry about money they are allowed to print it..
of course they need to worry about money, they are a business.
you think they do not have a budget??How friggin stupid are you really??
The reason they are in the position; old and fading roster is because of there wild and stupid spending of money for many many years..
Of course there budget and salaries matter anyone who thinks differently is a fool(did not use stupid this time)…
afte rthis yr. $85 mill in garbage contracts off the books, then they will have tremendous financial flexibility.
after next year the remake from a financial standpoint will be complete when the ylose damon and matsui’s deal.. they will be able to make moves like any other team in the league and still ahve a budget higher then all other teams but much more manageable..
Phil Hughes is not just over-valued he is insanely over-valued him and Melky for Haren would have been a great move.
No he isn’t my god realize he is 22, people were ready to trade Pelfrey out of NY because he couldn’t cut it at 24, Hughes is so young in developement that if he were in the futures game this season he’d be one of the youngest SP there.
So learning the (inferior) new league is taking the MPH off of Santana’s fastball?
“Phil Hughes for all the talk about his stuff seems to only have the following a low 90’s fastball with some movement and an erratic curveball. I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.”
Ah, so the talent evaluators from Baseball America who judged him one of the two best pitching prospects in baseball going into 2007 were all wrong and you’re right? Ok.
(He has too much service time to count as a prospect anymore, which is why they didn’t rate him this year)
Giants are 100% over budget on the stadium. WOW
“Mitch, to say Santana has “diminishing skills”… what do you base that on? One bad outing? ”
why do you keep ignoring what people have posted over and over?
1. declining velocity - go to fangraphs and see for yourself: 93.1 in 2006, 91.7 in 2007, 91.3 in 2008
2. declining strikeout rate - 9.44 in 2006, 9.66 in 2007, 7.99 in 2008
3. increasing walk rate - 1.81, 2.14, 2.62
4. increasing WHIP - 1.00, 1.07, 1.22
5. increasing OPS against - .589, .679, .691 (which is .715 when you take out the pitchers he’s faced)
look, i am not ready to say the Yankees did the right thing. but i am also not ready to say they did the wrong thing.
but there IS real data that is trending in the wrong direction.
no one is basing this on “one bad outing”.
the fact is that his strikeouts should be going UP in the NL and his WHIP should be going down. instead, he is striking out fewer batter, and he is getting hit harder while allowing more baserunners.
am i ready to say he is washed up? of course not. he should still be very good for the near term.
but just as it’s silly to say the Yankees wouldn’t be a better team with Santana, it’s equally foolish to ignore the data that says he hasn’t been pitching up to his own lofty standards for well over a year now.
“So learning the (inferior) new league is taking the MPH off of Santana’s fastball?”
He’s just scaling his arsenal to the quality of the hitters. If he was facing better hitters, he’d throw harder. Duh. He doesn’t want to make the NL feel bad by dominating them too much.
“They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straight years”
The Yankees drawing 4 millions fans a season coincides with the arrival of ARod.
Hughes is lacking somewhere I cant put my finger on it but he lacks the intensity you expect of a young stud pitcher. He seems to be stuck in the mud no passion there is this certain feel you get from a young pitcher that indicates whether he can lead a rotation and I dont see it in Hughes. Lincecum, Volquez, Joba those are guys that have stud written all over them the Franchise I just dont sense it.
I’d like to point out that regarding Beckett, Theo didn’t make the move to get him either. If you recall, he had left the Bahston Front Office in an ape suit a week before. That move was made by the two Bahston execs holding Theo’s shorts while he was gone.
al from bk with his usual red herring..
haren for hughes and melky was not an option.. oakland got 4 very good players for haren not 2…
why do you spout nonsense like the dummy who says why did the yanks not get beckett?Maybe because we did not have hanley ramirez in our barren minor leagues to trade for beckett….
If we do sign Bonds. We will have had the two biggest A holes in baseball in consecutive years; Clemens and Bonds.
Whozat- Yes I am they were judging him mostly on make-up, they failed to realize that sometimes a pitcher with a great make-up and good stuff just doesnt have it.
Still 4 players for 1. Cashman made it clear he knew this would be seen negatively this year. And whoever asked about Haren…. the A’s wanted the same as the Twins in the off-season.
Nick: Hypothesis! Johan is learning how to pitch like Livan to extend his career by decades.
“arod making more money for the yanks, I do not believe it.. the yanks are presently by far the most popular team and I assume there merchandise sales reflect this.. They have drawn 4 mill for 4 straigth years.. the marketing angle on the arod signing to me is all blue sky and totally unproveable….”
Actually, just look at attendance in SF from last year and compare to this year. Last year is was 39,792 per game, this year 35,331 per game. At about $50 per person (ticket + concessions), that comes out to about $17M per year.
I was never wowed by Hughes with the exception of the Texas game he has been mediocre at best.
Oh I know…remember that playoff game last season when he came in and saved the Yankees (not that it mattered). Mediocrity at it’s finest from that young bust named Phil Hughes! He will never amount to anything….
Stuart- I think Haren could have been had for around the same package as Santana which at one point was Hughes, Melky and a mid level guy. I never mentioned the Beckett deal, ever Hanley is an MVP type player which we obviously havent had on the farm in years.
“Ah, so the talent evaluators from Baseball America who judged him one of the two best pitching prospects in baseball going into 2007 were all wrong and you’re right? Ok.”
Wasn’t the other pitcher Homer Bailey? Yeah…
I’m still really high on Hughes, just wanted to point out that BA isn’t always right.
Al from BK you don’t know what you are talking about. In the minors Hughes sat at like 93, could jack it up to 95 with extremely good command. His curve is a legit strikeout pitch, he has a change that is decent and a slider which isn’t that good.
That game was yet another example of his flashes of brilliance but yet again just one game and the Indians were swinging at everything they had a lead so they weren’t trying to construct runs.
I never new that richard sexton played baseball. I gues photography is just a hobby for him.
Jenn: baseball or football Giants? I thought the baseball giants just opened a new park a few years ago?
LOL! Someone’s blaming Cashman for not getting Beckett? Because the Yankees just happened to have a Hanley Ramirez sitting around in AAA, and desparately needed a 3B?
“Al from BK you don’t know what you are talking about. In the minors Hughes sat at like 93, could jack it up to 95 with extremely good command. His curve is a legit strikeout pitch, he has a change that is decent and a slider which isn’t that good.”
I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?
“I’d like to point out that regarding Beckett, Theo didn’t make the move to get him either. If you recall, he had left the Bahston Front Office in an ape suit a week before. That move was made by the two Bahston execs holding Theo’s shorts while he was gone.”
Not entirely true. While Heartless Theo was techinically not the GM at the time the deal was made, he was consulted on it and others made that offseason as it was widely believe,almost from the day he left, that he’d be back.
“Sorry, Cash fumbled the ball. First of all give Santana a pass on learning a new league. If he stayed in the AL he would be more comfortable and knowledgeable about the hitters.”
then why didn’t he pitch well in inter-league?
1-3 with a 4.05 ERA.
and remember, that ERA hides the grand slam he gave up to King Felix.
he gave up 17 runs in 26 1/3 innings against the AL.
that excuse seems a little flimsy.
“Whozat- Yes I am they were judging him mostly on make-up”
Are you high? Baseball America does NOT rank players that high based on their makeup. Based on stuff, command and pitchability, sure. Poise on the mound is a nice bonus in their evaluation.
Besides, your perception of his makeup is based on his results. A guy looks calm but doesn’t win has no fire and doesn’t care. A guy who looks calm and succeeds is composed, cool under fire with ice water in his veins.
“I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?”
More like 3. Perhaps the hamstring injury he was recovering from and the broken rib that affected his velocity? Nah, it’s probably that he sucks.
football, said they were 100% over budget. That is just insane!!
That game was yet another example of his flashes of brilliance
Oh I know….thus it definitely means he won’t get it together.
All is lost for young 22 year old Phil….
Didn’t the Beckett deal at first look like a very crappy move.I mean Hanley Ramirez was a great shortstop and look at him now and picking up MIke Lowell looked horrible.And Beckett had a 5 Era and the Red Sox didn’t make the playoffs and were third in 2006.
But hey Beckett nearly won the Cy Young and the Red Sox won the World series in 2007.And it was because of Beckett.
Give the Santana deal some time he still has 5 years left in he’s contract and in he’s prime.Like these prospects don’t make judgement until it plays out.
If I remember correctly, Theo was against the Beckett trade as much as Cashman was. Becketts injury history (mostly his shoulder). Theo valued Hanley more than Beckett. It was the two monkeys in the office that pulled the trigger.
“I’m still really high on Hughes, just wanted to point out that BA isn’t always right.”
Yes, but it’s very common for guys ranked based on stuff, with the expectation that command will come to disappoint. Guys that are ranked based on command (which Hughes was) are much better bets. Bailey has always been wild and walked gazillions of guys. Hughes has never been that kind of pitcher.
Whozat- It wasn’t like he came up and exhibited all his strengths like he did in the minors. Why did his velocity go down and why did his command suddenly go away maybe because minor league batters are just that minor league batters.
“I haven’t seen any of that up in the bigs. Why the 5 MPH drop in velocity?”
I’ve heard its a bit hard to pitch with broken ribs.
Another thing on the PSL. He said people can sell their psl’s after a year to who ever they wanted. So that 100,000 people on the wait list are basically screwed. I know the Jets had people pay money to be on the list did the Giants as well?
“Hughes is lacking somewhere I cant put my finger on it but he lacks the intensity you expect of a young stud pitcher. He seems to be stuck in the mud no passion there is this certain feel you get from a young pitcher that indicates whether he can lead a rotation and I dont see it in Hughes. Lincecum, Volquez, Joba those are guys that have stud written all over them the Franchise I just dont sense it.”
Um, check out Volquez:
2005: 6 games (3 starts), 14.21 ERA, 2.76 WHIP
2006: 8 starts, 7.29 ERA, 2.07 WHIP
2007: 6 starts, 4.50 ERA, 1.44 WHIP
2008: 20 games (19 starts), 2.29 ERA, 1.24 WHIP
Because, you know, you can totally write the book on a pitcher after a handful of starts. Get a clue.
“That’s the thing, I can’t afford it…but somewhere…someone will spend that much.
I need a sugar daddy!
S.A. how pretty are you?
I probably would have pulled the trigger on Santana as long as Hughes was off the table and it still would have been a mistake. Santana will get 90+ wins over the 6 years so its like 1.2 - 1.3 mil per win. The pitching market is crazy. A guy wins 15 games for a couple of years and suddenly he’s a 20 mil a yr pitcher. Ridiculous. Hopefully they’ll just chill out with hughes and let him start anew next spring. Joba’s come once a decade not 2x per year. Next years rotation could be
1. Wang
2. Joba
3. Pettite- he wants to come back and will propably sign
another 1 year- could make sense as he’s not ancient
4. Maybe hughes. Could even be Moose the way he’s adjusted
but we’ll see if he holds up for his next 10-12 starts
5. Big free Agent a la Sheets/CC prefer Sheets or a 2nd tier
But the bottom line is they will very likely have 3 homegrown solid pitchers. That is rare and a lot of us are underrating the value of that. Cashman’s been under the gun the whole year because The Yanks haven’t cracked 2nd place but if the 3 homegrown plan works out. He’ll become a genius overnight
when I was Phil Huhges age I would pitch in negative 10 degree weather up hill with no legs. Clearly he is a bum
Hughes control has been horrific this year as many BB’s as K’s. The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start. I cannot believe that everyone wants to give him a huge mulligan what about his several starts before the injury?
I’ve heard its a bit hard to pitch with broken ribs.
Are you kidding me, it’s like putting on a shoe, he should actually gain 3 mph w/ a broken rib.
“Hughes control has been horrific this year as many BB’s as K’s. The Hammy injury occured last May dont use that to excuse him this year and the rib injury obviously happened some time before his last start. I cannot believe that everyone wants to give him a huge mulligan what about his several starts before the injury?”
Do you think that, maybe, just maybe, something happened between his amazing spring training and initial start vs. the Blue Jays and his suckitude? Maybe, just maybe, he was hurt but didn’t know it?