Today in The Journal News
-
-
- July
- 28
-
The Yankees stuck with Sidney Ponson last night and paid the price with a lopsided loss to the Red Sox.
The Yankees watched a friend get into the Hall of Fame before the game. This notebook also has updates on the tradewinds, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, Mike Mussina and Jose Molina.
This entry was posted
on Monday, July 28th, 2008 at 4:59 am by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
I guess that’s like Boston paying the price with a lopsided loss for sticking with Wakefield on Saturday. The Yanks have also paid the same price for sticking with Mussina and Pettitte a few times.
Just imagine how much worse things would have been if Hawkins was still on the roster. Nice job by Giese last night.
greenbret7: um Wakefield has been a solid if not good part of their rotation all year round. by no means is he a guy who is a 5th starter at best who was picked up off the street.
Greeenberet7
I believe there were two comments concerning Meacham, mine being one of the two. I consider my points valid. I think I have a general idea who you were referring to, if it wasn’t me a response from you saying so was all that was necessary.
For all us Yankees fans clamoring to see IPK replace Rasner at the end of the rotation, there seems to be a glaring indication that they will do just that.
Mussina’s start was pushed back from Tuesday to Monday. This makes sense, as it will be 4 days rest for him, but it doesn’t make sense in terms of the rest of the rotation. On Tuesday, Joba would be starting on only 3 days rest, as he pitched after last Thursday’s off-day. And so on and so forth with the rest of the staff, unless the Yankees were to sandwich an extra starter into Tuesdays game, which they will of course do.
Will they put in Rasner on Tuesday? Probably not. If he were still a part of the rotation, they would have just pitched him on Monday and then sent out Mussina on 5 days rest. There would be no need to disrupt the rotation like that.
Instead, the only other pitcher that would make sense on Tuesday is Kennedy. As it turns out, he pitched on Thursday for Scranton (the near no-no), meaning that Tuesday would be a perfect 4 days rest for him. That way, Mussina pitches on 4 days rest, IPK pitches on 4 days rest, and the rest of the rotation continues on 4 days–as it should be.
Perhaps they wanted to mix things up and send Rasner after Mussina. Perhaps they traded for Jarrod Washburn and plan to start him on 1 day of rest. Perhaps they anticipate that Pavano will be so good in his rehab stint tomorrow that they anticipate rushing him up to the majors for his glorious return to the Yanks. Or perhaps they’re putting in IPK on normal rest. Seems to make sense to me. Mystery solved.
I am a Yale journalism major who is a die-hard fan. I’m also a fan of the blog and have just plucked up the courage to make my first post. Love the site Pete. You are a voice of reason in a sea of insanity.
can’t win ‘em all. i will take 2 out of 3 in Fenway any time.
for what it’s worth, replacing Rasner with IPK, at this point in the season, is downright stupid. can we give the boy some months in AAA in order to build his nerves a bit? we can’t be bringing him up every time he has a good start down there. I will also maintain that Rasner’s, much more often than not, done the job.
we may be great at player development, but something tells me this franchise might have a lot to learn in the “when to promote them” department. Joba’s the exception, as he’s simply not human.
jettman, you might have something there. I doubt it will be Pavano, IPK is much more likely.
I believe there are two reasons for moving Mussina to tonight. The first one is the catching situation. If Mussina pitched tomorrow night, then Wed. afternoon Moeller would’ve caught. They didn’t want him catching 2 of 3 games in the series. So, Molina gets Moose tonight, Moeller gets Rasner tomorrow and Molina back with Joba Wednesday afternoon. They’re just maximizing the roster.
The second reason, having Ponson and Rasner pitching back to back is a recipe for blowing out the bullpen. Throw Moose in the middle, so you have a reliable starter between the 2 question marks. I never would’ve thought Moose would be so dependable this year that he would be moved to separate two other guys. I would’ve thought he’d be part of the problem. Go figure.
Blah, if it was the case that Wakefield is such a good pitcher, he shouldn’t have gotten knocked around on Saturday like he was, oh, I don’t know, Sidney Ponson.
Joe I has it right, when you are in a playoff chase you ALWAYS get your top arms out there on regular rest of they’re healthy. Breaking up the two least reliable starters is the secondary benefit.
Kennedy should start Tuesday in SWB at the same time Rasner faces the Orioles. If Kennedy is outstanding he is bound to replace either Sid or Raz in the rotation.
By next week we could be looking at Pettite, Joba, Mussina, Washburn, Kennedy…. and that’s fine with me.
Rhapsody, you can take it however you want.
The thought of Pavano pitching for the Yankees gives me heartburn.
“The thought of Pavano pitching for the Yankees gives me heartburn.”
And it gives him a pain in his shoulder, or is it the elbow, or is it his knee. Well, you get the point. He’ll have a pain somewhere when the time is right.
Joe I: I bet he’ll just have a really bad sunburn.
i’ve greatly enjoyed the pavano jokes on here for the past 2 years and i’ve thrown a few in myself, but as he begins to pitch in the minors and a return to the club seems possible, barring setbacks by the end of august, it seems peole here cant separate the joking from reality.
if pavano can come back for the last month of the season, he could be a big help for the stretch run. he is better than rasner, ponson, kennedy and washburn. im not counting on him yet, but if he can make it back in time for the last month of the pennant race, i want him back.
let’s not forget that his problem is that he’s been injured, for practically his entire contract. $40M down the crapper. but lets also remember that he was injured and unable to perform. not like this phantom manny injury, but real injuries that the yankees medical staff has dealt with. granted, some of his injuries, like his buttock injury were funny, but its still an injury that can sideline players.
the other thing he did wrong was that he didnt report that he’s been in an accident, which was wrong but he did it because he was supposed to come off the d.l. and pitch and was hoping he still could. stupid judgement on his part but not like manny deciding he didnt want to play.
i’m rooting for pavano to make it back. i hope that we wont need him b/c the back end of the rotation is set, but i want pavano to be available in case we need him.
I don’t think it necessarily has to be one or the other with regards to the reason Moose was moved up to Monday.
The fact that Tuesday’s starter was listed as TBD until this morning means that there was some doubt/confusion with who it would be. However, the plan was always to have Moose on Monday.
My guess is that Girardi listed Moose for Monday knowing that he would need to spread out Molina/the inconsistent starters, but also knowing that Tuesday would work out for both Rasner and Kennedy. He didn’t list a starter for Tuesday because he wasn’t sure. I would assume that, after discussions with Cash$ et all, he decided to stick with Rasner.
That at least would indicate that, despite his last start, he is on very thin ice. If he can’t pitch well against a mediocre offense on Tuesday, he’s gone and Kennedy’s in.
It’s true. When Pavano actually pitches (other than Opening Day last year), he’s actually not bad. But that doesn’t mean that we, the overzealous fans of the Yankees, should stop being bitter about his lack of ACTUAL PITCHING and making a buttload of money to sit around.
“i’m rooting for pavano to make it back. i hope that we wont need him b/c the back end of the rotation is set, but i want pavano to be available in case we need him.”
i agree. Pavano, when capable of pitching, is a very good pitcher. now that he’s sched to pitch in a game tomorrow, i think its reasonable to believe if he can make starts at the big league level this year, he’s going to push to make it happen.
he needs someone to offer him a contract for next season, and if he can contribute a month worth of September quality starts in the AL pennant race, he’ll do himself a lot of good.
if you can go Pettitte, Joba, Moose, and then some combo of Washburn, IPK, and a healthy rehbabbed Pavano, you can make a nice run of it.
main thing to take from the past week for the Yankees should be to maintain consistency… winning two out of every three games from this point out gets them to approx 96 wins, which punches their ticket for the postseason.
Moves I’d consider :
- Get Washburn if it’s a reasonable deal.
- Send down Giese.
- Allow Ponson another start to see if he rebounds. Much the same with Rasner.
- Bring up Scott Strickland from AAA.
- If Aceves is ready bring him up replacing Rasner who goes to long relief.
- If Ponson is still failing, DFA him.
Moose was always going to be the Monday starter so he could stay on regular rest. Girardi said that would be the case after his last start. Had nothing to do with the catching situation.
Molina will catch him tonight and Moeller will catch Rasner on Tuesday.
It is interesting how Washburn and Ponson are pitching on the same day. Meaning that if the Yankees can make a deal for Washburn, they can slot him into the rotation against his former team (the Angels) Friday night.
A few things..
Did anybody notice last night when ESPN put their “defens” graphic on the screen (the one that shows a digital aerial view of fenway with the names of the players in the field) they had Pavano as the pitcher? Those with DVR–check it out.
Also, besides the baseball-prospectus page that has Kennedy pitching Tuesday, and besides the fact that it “makes sense”, is there any other indication as to him starting the game Tuesday?
Another thing– Yesterday I yelled and screamed about people being too hard on Jon Miller and Joe Morgan. I defended the two and said people should calm down. After last night though…jeesh. Every word out of their mouth had to do with Lester, his no hitter, his cancer, Theo Epstein, the 2007 World Series, or the Yankees woes. They spent 15 minutes talking about how Jeter misplayed that “sure-thing double play ball” last night, even going as far as not mentioning other things that were occurring live. It was despicable.
This might be hard for someone to stomach, but just think…If Pavano is healthy and can replace Rasner in the rotation…that would be better than any deadline trades that could be made right now.
Joba
Pettitte
Mussina
Pavano
Kennedy/Wang/Hughes
If you can get 5 starters out of those 7 names up there, the Yankees would have one of the best rotations for the home stretch. Any of those last 3 names would look a lot better than Washburn IMHO. (As long as Hughes can win a game).
I hate to second guess, but thats one of the things us fans do. Early in the year I was very critical of Girardi leaving the starter in the game long enough for the game to get out of hand. The reasoning was that Joe did not have a bullpen to pull the starter out early.
Well, last night once Ponson was into the fourth, he could have pulled him and he certainly has the depth to maybe keep the Yankees in the game. Otherwise it becomes another throw away game
one more thing about the pitching staff that i havent seen discussed lately is joba’s innings limits. his spot in the rotation comes up 12 more times (the last being the season finale and fenway!). Joba’s limit was expected to be around 135-140 and its still murkey whether that includes PS innings. joba’s currently at 78.1IP. that just leaves him 62 innings max with 12 starts left which is 5.16 innings per start. and that leaves nothing for the PS.
i know we are just gonna keep throwing him out there every 5th game for now, b/c we need him but we may need to sit him down at some point, expecially if the limit is 135 and especially if they do plan on counting his PS innings and still keep him under the cap.
we need hughes, pavano and kennedy ready not only for that but in case of another injury.
If people would stop and realize that NYY only needs to pick up one game in the standings every two weeks, they’ll walk into the post season as AL East champions. They’ve been picking up ground in bunches, but, that most likely won’t last. I’ll settle for the game every two weeks and let Boston and Tampa kick each other to death.
Pavano? boy, thats a reach. He hasnt pitched in the ML in how long? Also, before his injuries he wasn`t that good for the Yankees. I know everyone here is hopeful, but my thinking would be to trade him to the NL. Somebody will take a chance on him, especialliy after looking at who the # 3 4 5 pitchers are on many NL teams
Moves I’d consider :
- Get Washburn if it’s a reasonable deal.
- Send down Giese.
- Allow Ponson another start to see if he rebounds. Much the same with Rasner.
- Bring up Scott Strickland from AAA.
- If Aceves is ready bring him up replacing Rasner who goes to long relief.
- If Ponson is still failing, DFA him.
I wouldn’t mind slotting Rasner into the long-man role..these moves “make sense” but I get the feeling like a lot of them won’t happen. it’s one of those thigns that you’d do in a video game, but that for some reason or another, won’t happen in real life. They’ll give Rasner/Ponson another few starts..they won’t feel as if Strickland is ready..etc, etc.
If people would stop and realize that NYY only needs to pick up one game in the standings every two weeks, they’ll walk into the post season as AL East champions. They’ve been picking up ground in bunches, but, that most likely won’t last. I’ll settle for the game every two weeks and let Boston and Tampa kick each other to death.
That might be what we all have to do, as our schedule gets more difficult while the Red Sox and Rays have very few west-coast trips remaining. If we can miraculously take 2/3 from the Angels, then the next few weeks will be very exciting indeed.
Aceves and Strickland aren’t on the 40 man roster. Meaning, they would have to DFA players on the 40 man in order to call up either guy. Doesn’t seem likely they will go in that direction.
Aceves is on a 75 pitch count in AAA as he is just coming back off injury. Strickland has pitched well but, the bullpen is the strength of the Yankees right now. There isn’t any room for him at the major league level.
They need to find one starting pitcher. Whether that’s among the wounded trying to get healthy or on the trade market.
If they can, that will be the lineup that will try to make the playoffs over the next two months.
When ponson is healthy he is a 500 pitcher. He is a Rasner. The guy is a disgrace of a signing. Pavano and igawa are cashman’s low watermarks.
Kennedy has not had “one good start”- he has been very good since being activated- that’s several starts…he should be up here.
Every start we allow ponson or rasner to make is a game we are expecting to lose, hoping to win…you can’t do that in a pennant race
The guy is a disgrace of a signing. Pavano and igawa are cashman’s low watermarks.
Ponson was picked up for chump change at a time where the Yankees needed a 5th starter. Let me be the first to apologize if he didn’t end up being Cy Young.
Igawa and Pavano have been a few of Cashman’s low water marks..I’ll give you that much. But Pavano’s was because of his constant injuries…not because of his pitching ability. He can pitch. Everyone knows that. It’s just a matter of whether or not he can make it to the mound without exploding.
Igawa sucks.
The 3 games with the Orioles should be played with urgency figuring that the Angels will play Boston tough and the Jays will play the Rays tough.
A well rested bullpen courtesy of last night’s blowout which can be made up in a hurry if the Yankees take care of business for the next 3 games with no thoughts of the Angels coming in for 4 games.
“When ponson is healthy he is a 500 pitcher. He is a Rasner. The guy is a disgrace of a signing.”
how can anyone really be angry with the Ponson signing at this point? hasnt he done exactly what the yankees needed him to do? he’s being pay pennies and kept the Yankees close in most of the games he’s pitched, giving them a chance to win.
he’s also provided that bridge to the trading deadline to allow the Yankees offensee to get itself started, make sure the bullpen didnt get burned out, and allow Cashman to buy time to evaluate the trade market, and see what useful pieces would make themselves available.
he’s not great, but Ponson has done everything the Yankees have really asked him to, and expected from him.
rumor has it that the marlins are interested in igawa. AND HE’S STILL IN SCRANON? what’s the problem? are we now arguing over how many balls are in the bag?
Yeah, I’m not upset about the Ponson signing. It was a minor league contract, so there was the chance he’d never even be brought up. And the Yankees have only lost 1 of his starts. So I think maybe it’s not so bad.
If a Washburn deal is done and he’s slotted for Friday vs. the Angels, Ponson can be used for garbage innings to stay fresh until a decision is made whether he’s kept or not.
I can certainly understand why you all are frustrated with Pavano. But I’m not sure you should be upset at Cashman for that.
When Pavano was a free agent he was aggressively pursued by many teams including the Red Sox. No one knew at the time that he would have so many injuries.
“rumor has it that the marlins are interested in igawa”
Wouldn’t buy into this rumor. They could have plucked him off waivers and didn’t. I’d assume the Marlins not taking him for free would preclude them from actually trading something to get him.
Plenty of people are interested in Igawa… just not at $ 4M a year for three-plus years. Not even the Mariners were willing to do that to make the Washburn trade happen.
Aceves is not making it up nor is Strickland going to help this team. If changes are made to the starting rotation it’ll be for one or two guys from the group of Kennedy, Hughes, Wang, Washburn and Pavano. I’m betting it’ll be Kennedy and Washburn but hoping it’s Wang.
If there’s a change or two Ponson and Rasner get sent down or released. No reason either should replace Giese in the pen.
Rip Cashman all you want on Igawa… it was a disastrous signing, but it was done on a strong recommendation from the Far East scout who hopefully is unemployed now. Pavano was a recruiting battle the Yanks “won” over the Red Sawx and everyone was thrilled at the time.
didnt pavano take less to become a yankee? he’s a connecticut guy i think
“Pavano was a recruiting battle the Yanks “won†over the Red Sawx and everyone was thrilled at the time.”
Should have known when his mother made the decision for him, it would work out disasterously. IMO, Pavano’s very limited resume did not merit the effort the Yankees, Boston and a couple other teams put forth in trying to get him.
“Plenty of people are interested in Igawa… just not at $ 4M a year for three-plus years. Not even the Mariners were willing to do that to make the Washburn trade happen.”
i dont buy the rumor, either, but yeah, i could see another team taking a shot at him if the yankees pick up a portion of the remaining salary on him. consider it the yankees’ version of a salary dump.
“IMO, Pavano’s very limited resume did not merit the effort the Yankees, Boston and a couple other teams put forth in trying to get him.”
the law of supply and demand. the best of a mediocre bunch of pitchers on the FA market that offseason.
SJ
I’m curious on your take cause I know you think we’ll go after CC in FA.
What’s next years opening day rotation if we trade for Washburn? Who’s the odd man out?
Moose, Andy, Wang, Joba, Washburn – no room unless you don’t resign Moose or Andy.
I saw a rumor that Texas was the front runner for getting CC. While I can understand that the bidding for CC could be high, how can any team be thought of as a front runner when there hasn’t been one single bid yet?
That’s where you’re wrong Freddie. If the Marlins had claimed him on waivers, they’d have been responsible for his entire conract, not just a prorated salary.
the pirate’s closer capps is on the d.l. and they traded marte, so yesterday in a 1-1 game they brought in thier new closer, grabow in the 8th. he coughed up a homer to scott hariston, and then another in the 9th to josh bard.
enjoy your ‘re-stocked’ minors, pirate fans.
no room unless you don’t resign Moose or Andy.
Although there are a lot of questions surrounding next year’s starting rotation, it’s a good situation to be in. The Yankees will have a pool consisting of Mussina, Pettitte, Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy to start from..with potential for Washburn, Sabathia, Sheets, or other FA pitchers. Having 7-8 guys to fill out a 5-man rotation is a “problem” I wish the Yankees had every year. (I know you aren’t claiming they will be in trouble next year or anything..just thought I’d quote your post anyway
)
“What’s next years opening day rotation if we trade for Washburn? Who’s the odd man out? Moose, Andy, Wang, Joba, Washburn – no room unless you don’t resign Moose or Andy.”
IMO, if a trade goes down, it’ll prob be CC, Wang, Pettitte, Joba, and Washburn.
that means Hughes and IPK start in Scranton, which is prob best for both of them. you could even move one of them for a young 1B to take over for Giambi, and let him walk, too.
i dont think they’d bring Moose back. the wild card here is if Moose agreed to come back for one year deals… but if Moose really wants to pitch, he’d need to secure a multi-year deal to have a legit shot at 300, as well as cash in one last time before he retires.
i dont see Cashman giving Moose more than one year at a time.
“the law of supply and demand. the best of a mediocre bunch of pitchers on the FA market that offseason.”
True. If I remember right, Boston followed that by signing the immortal Matt Clement for a crazy contract.
“how can any team be thought of as a front runner when there hasn’t been one single bid yet?”
when a beat writer needs something to write about on a slow news day.
“I saw a rumor that Texas was the front runner for getting CC.”
Saw the same rumor. Didn’t identify the Rangers as a frontrunner, but rather indicated that they will pony up the cash necessary to be competitive in the bidding.
I don’t think there’s much downside to having Carl Pavano pitch a few games for the Yankees this year. He wouldn’t be expected to be an ace, just give some decent innings, giving the Yankees a chance to win. He’s already on the roster and the payroll. Why not?
another thing about the pavano signing, and one that makes the whore affair so much sadder, is the fact of how badly the yankees needed him over these past 4 years. we’ve been really lucky to make the PS with small, karstens, rasner, ponson, lieter, chacon and others helping out as emergency starters. how much easier might it have been had pavano been pitching to his abilities. it might have bought the team a late september breather going into the PS.
unfortunatly, we’ll never know.
sorry that was supposed to be ‘the whole affair’ obviously.
the ‘whore affair’ was dave stewart…
If Mussina and Pettitte both win 20 this year, they’ll get no less than one year plus an option. NYY is taking no chances on Mussina winning 300 games and a HOF ticket wearing anything but a Yankee hat. That’s a ton of free publicity and that means money.
William,
I think the Yankees would be happy with the overflow of starters. It would give them options.
As the season goes on, it seems more likely they would look to bring back both Moose and Andy on one year deals. I don’t think either guy would mind going year to year at this point in their respective careers.
They have Wang and Chamberlain back next year. If they sign C, and have Washburn in the fold, they could trade Washburn (if both Moose and Andy are back), eat some money, and get a prospect in return.
If they get Washburn, it also serves as protection in case either Andy or Moose (or both for that matter) retire or seek to play elsewhere.
Similar to what they did with the acquisition of Nady and how that will protect them in case Abreu moves on.
I think the days of “counting on” young starters like Hughes and Kennedy are over. They will have to earn their way back. Which I believe they will at some point in their careers.
I just don’t think either guy will be penciled into the rotation going into the off-season like they were last year.
The concept of getting younger is the right way to go. How you get there is always subject to change which is why neither Hughes or Kennedy will be guaranteed rotation spots going into 2009.
The Pavano and Jaret Wright signings were done at the strong insistence of a then still active George Steinbrenner who was fuming after the meltdown of 2004.
Brian Cashman had no say in the matter at that time.
The last real deal of significance that George was heavily involved with was the Randy Johnson transaction.
did anybody see the nifty double play teixeira made yesterday? snatched a nice liner, stepped on the bag and threw a bullet to 2nd in time to nab victorino. imagine a 1B with a gold glove who can also throw!
he did however bobble a throw that would have ended the inning and was followed by a 3 run homer.
I don’t understand the optimistic case for Pavano -
We have no idea what kind of pitcher he is now, we know that he was good when he was a Marlin and we really haven’t seen what he can do since. His last full year of work was 2004 and who knows what impact the multiple injuries have had on his ability to pitch.
If he’s capable to pitch like he did when he was 18-8 with a 3.00 era then great. But he is way behind IPK in terms of short term options imo.
“did anybody see the nifty double play teixeira made yesterday?”
Saw that. Nice play, but in truth, any 1B who can throw makes it. Wonder if he’s available this week now that half the Braves team is hurt now (Jones seemingly headed to DL, Hudson with elbow tightness, McCann getting a concussion yesterday, etc.)
Yankees will be signing Teixeira and Sabathia in the offseason. Giambi, Mussina (who is having a great year), and others will be gone.
It will be Wang, Sabathia, Joba, Pettitte, and one of the combo of (Kennedy, Hughes, Horne, Brackman).
Pavano is a mystery at this point, but the Yankees will have to do something with him. He will come off the DL at some point. He will be tested in rehab games, so they will be able to see if he has anything to offer in terms of pitching.
He might get a bullpen assignment if he can still pitch well. His stamina will be questionable after so long a layoff.
The Yankees won’t sign both Tex and CC. There is practically no chance of that happening. Especially since the Yankees aren’t very interested in playing Boras’ game with Tex.
Boras is already driving them nuts with Gerrit Cole, and he has never pitched beyond high school.
CC? Different story. They will offer the biggest deal. It will be up to CC to decide whether or not to accept it.
yeah, im not getting too optimistic about pavano, you’re right. i was just pointing out that on the board several people have posting saying they’re hoping he doesnt make it back and such. he’s still got a long way to go and his effectiveness, even if he’s healthy is certainly a question mark.
but if he can pitch, i’ll definitly take him back, we may need 2 or more extra starters if ponson/rasner underpeform and/or the big 3 miss a start or two.
remember, we’re down to 2 old guys and a very young guy on an innings limit right now.
“True. If I remember right, Boston followed that by signing the immortal Matt Clement for a crazy contract.”
Okay Fredo…..thanks for bringing that up and making my morning. Just kidding!
Totally agree with earning your way back point. I’m not sure if they trade for Washburn that they’ll be in FA market for pitcher. I would imagine they are shy of making a long term deals w/ pitchers after being burned in the past, though I’m of the school that believes CC is worthy of the risk.
I know these are “good problems to have.” I think this is really interesting to see how it plays out, assuming they make the trade and CC is even interested in being a yankee.
“and one of the combo of (Kennedy, Hughes, Horne, Brackman).”
this is where you, or commenters like yourself, lose people. Brackman is coming back from TJ surgery, and has yet to throw one single professional inning.
i understand maybe he’s just a throw in in the conversation, but there is much more likely a chance that Brackman stays in A-ball next year than he throws one single pitch, including a ceremonial pitch before a game, for the pinstripes.
RER— That’s true about the Boss, but everyone wanted Pavano that off-season. He pitched great in the 2003 post-season and was 18-8 3.00 in 2004.
CC turned down a huge offer from Cleveland, so I don’t think the highest bidder will be what keys his decision. Gotta hope it’s the chance to win, a LHP friendly ballpark, a great city and a brand new stadium.
The challenge of getting younger in the rotation and not counting on inexperienced starters is a difficult one. With CC being as young as he is he offers the best of both worlds though it means either Pettite or Mussina won’t return. Otherwise there’s no opportunity for Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves to be the 5th starter and that would be counter productive to what they’ve been accomplishing.
It’s the same thought process behind Teixiera… he’s not yet 29, so you can get better AND younger with him, too.
and all it’ll cost between them is $ 40-45M a year!
ray –
What percentage chance is there that Manny gets traded in your view?
(If Shaughnessy has anything to say about it he will drive many to the airport!)
The Nady – Marte deal ……
http://www.baseball-intellect......marte.html
True, but i was really just naming possible starters. Since he is coming out of college and not highschool, he wont necessarily need too much time in the minors. But i agree it will more likely be Hughes (possibly Kennedy).
“Earlier in the day, Ramirez told ESPNdeportes.com he didn’t care where he went. “I can even play in Iraq,” he said. “My job is to play baseball.”
There you have it, the most clutch hitter in baseball would rather be in Iraq then in Boston lol
TK
I could be wrong but I just don’t see many teams that would want to pick him up for a couple months for the kind of contract he has not to mention the headaches.
Of course, if the Sox really want to get rid of him and offer to pay some of his remaining salary then that would change the picture.
86 –
There wasn’t a huge offer from Cleveland to CC – it was around $90M I think (compared with Johan’s $136M)
SJ –
Interesting point about the Boras/Cole negotiations. I guess I’m not surprised but that is going to go right down to the wire. I think it was Hardball Times that said that Cole had the best stuff in the draft, but there were some concerns about his mechanics.
I’m not so certain that the Yankees wouldn’t go after both CC and Teixeira. Even with Boras being involved, Teixeira is a bat that would make the loss of Giambi from the lineup easier to move past.
If i’m the Mets, there is no way I dont get Manny Ramirez.
Could you imagine the Mets going Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Manny, Delgago?
that is how they’d win the NL East.
John Kruk actually had a decent proposal idea, just swapping Pat Burrell and Manny. two big name guys with good bats, making about the same amount of cash for 2008, and both i think FAs after teh season with club options going forward. makes sense.
“What percentage chance is there that Manny gets traded in your view?”
Pretty close to Zero would be my guess. I can see no way Boston will exercise the option for next year though.
Boras is talking a 4 year/$80M type deal for him apparently. Honestly, I don’t see anyone giving him more than 3 years and $42-$45 million…..if he’s lucky.
“There wasn’t a huge offer from Cleveland to CC – it was around $90M I think (compared with Johan’s $136M)”
Think the Tribe made that offer before Santana got his money. Forget whether it was 4 years/$80M or 5/$90M, but it was not a bad offer. Whoever gives him the 7 years he wants is an idiot, IMO.
Stat of the day: Sabathia, having made 4 starts for the Brewers, is tied for the NL lead in complete games.
Hey TKinDC—
$ 90 M over 5 years is not a HUGE offer? Well please tell Mr. Trump I said hello. Get real. Offering to make someone the second highest pitcher in the history of the game is a HUGE offer.
Manny is going nowhere this year, though the Burrell swap has some merit. He’ll be very disappointed if he thinks he’s getting $ 100M over four years.
I don’t buy into the Boras issue getting in the way of anything. Sure he’s tough to deal with and wrings every dime out of you and is a complete pompous ass… but if the Yanks aren’t going to deal with agents who are arrogant asses they’ll be out of players in no time!
86 –
lol – The Donald says ‘hi’
Your facts are wrong about what top pitchers are being paid – check Cot’s Baseball Contracts if you want to get some good info on the current salaries.
Jarrod Washburn’s next scheduled start is Friday and if he’s a Yankee will be pitching against his former team, the Angels.
CC turned down a huge offer from Cleveland, so I don’t think the highest bidder will be what keys his decision. Gotta hope it’s the chance to win, a LHP friendly ballpark, a great city and a brand new stadium.
CC turned down a huge offer, of course. But I don’t think there’s any question that he’ll receive higher bids when he enters free agency. When more than one team is bidding, it will increase the money that the player gets. Simple supply & demand. If only one team is “demanding” him, then they won’t have to give him as much compared to if 5-10 teams vie for his services. I’m sure a chance to win, a brand-spanking-new LHP friendly ballpark, and a great city will be part of the discussion, but unless CC really wanted to stay in Cleveland, not taking their offer was a smart move for him financially. He’s going to become a very rich man, and his worth only increases with the stupendous starts he has made since being acquired by the Brewers. If 4 of his last 10 starts are complete-game shutouts our close to it, he’s going to look awfully good to teams come December.
Who is making more than $ 18 million a year other than Santana? Oh Zambrano by $ 300K, so it was the third biggest contract (annual value) in baseball history… sue me! I bet if he asked for $ 92 over five years ($ 18.4/yr) they would have done it.
CC will top either the total value of the Santana deal or the annual value but not both…. that’s my prediction. I also think Teixiera will get a deal in line with Zito’s contract… can’t see anyone giving him over $ 20M a year.
“Jarrod Washburn’s next scheduled start is Friday and if he’s a Yankee will be pitching against his former team, the Angels.”
0-2 with a 6.35 ERA and 1.94 WHIP vs. the Halos this year. Yippee!!!
$ 90 M over 5 years is not a HUGE offer? Well please tell Mr. Trump I said hello. Get real. Offering to make someone the second highest pitcher in the history of the game is a HUGE offer.
Read my previous post. Nobody in their right mind thinks 90 million to be chump change, but it’s easy to see that CC Sabathia will get much more than that in the FA market– Even considering the mediocrity of Johan Santana this year.
It’s funny that both Rasner and Ponson are scheduled to pitch on the same days as their potential replacements (Kennedy and Washburn). I guess that makes it easier if you want to pull one or both from the rotation, depending on if they actually acquire Washburn or not. I personally hope they don’t and just try to piece the rest of the year together with Kennedy and the rehabbing pitchers.
Ponson stinks, always has, and always will.
Try harder
We aren’t going to chase for Tex, only for CC. Of course our names will come up in the talks for Tex, why wouldn’t they? We are the Yankees. They will only be in the talks if the Sox are heavily involved in the bidding so we can make them, or someone else for that matter, over pay for Tex. I would love to have Tex, as most of us would, but not for 8-10 years and paying him 20 per. If he’d take a 5/90 deal, pull the trigger. Highly unlikely that happens though, not with Boras.
Overall a good series for the Yankees. 2/3 from the Red Sox who had their Ace on the mound. We only lost game 3 because of Ponson and Lester getting lucky to not give up any more runs with the bases juiced. But I think we showed that we can take the Red Sox so I’m very happy.
Oh we’re just playing semantics, but I cannot make the adjustment that $ 18 million a year is not a HUGe amount of money.
That said, keep in mind there are only three players with contracts worth $ 20 M a year or more. I believe CC will be the fourth. I do not believe Teixiera will be the fifth.
The next in that range will bein two years when Roy Halladay and Albert Pujols are free agents.
MAx Kellerman is way waaaay waaaaaaaay off there is no way Dan Giese or Brian Bannister is better than Jarrod Washbur, sometimes paying attention to WHIP when he’s on a bad team does not prove that case.
ha!! you know, as soon as i read that i thought of you, Brandon, and laughed.
“What percentage chance is there that Manny gets traded in your view?”
The Red Sox will crumble when Manny leaves. Their offensive woes with Varitek, Ellsbury, Lugo/Cora will shine brighter than a Ponson’s butt crack.
I’m not sure I understand the infatuation with Saltalamacchia, he is more of a DH/1B than catcher at this point. If he is viewed as a replacement for Giambi, it makes sense, but why would Texas do that.
ha!! you know, as soon as i read that i thought of you, Brandon, and laughed.
Salty ?
“If he is viewed as a replacement for Giambi, it makes sense, but why would Texas do that.”
The won’t. That’s why it went nowhere when they asked.
yeah, Brandon.
I could see Olivo come in for the rest of the year, but Moeller as a backup to a backup won’t last for long.
“I could see Olivo come in for the rest of the year, but Moeller as a backup to a backup won’t last for long.”
why? have we been killed specifically from the play of our backup catcher?
the catching situation doesnt need to be fixed. Moeller’s fine.
Kellerman is drunk – K-Rod is not as good as Edwar?
What is the point of even listening to this?
the catching situation doesnt need to be fixed. Moeller’s fine.
If you can get Olivo cheap you do it. He’s way better than Moeller, I also think Olivo being a former Girardi guy helps him to.
Want to see another reason why Olivo
hey, Brandon, i think i found a best friend for you on mlbtrade rumors:
“On behalf of the Rangers, if Cashman offered Kennedy for Salty I will see to it that he’s on the next flight to NYC.
Posted by: txrangers22 | July 28, 2008 at 09:24 AM”
Kellerman is drunk – K-Rod is not as good as Edwar?
What is the point of even listening to this?
Actually he might not be that far off. K-Rod gets alot of credit but the guy that comes in w/ more RISP is Jose Arredando. (That’s the point Kellerman hasn’t made) everyone thinks it’s K-Rod it really is Arredando.
“If you can get Olivo cheap you do it. He’s way better than Moeller, I also think Olivo being a former Girardi guy helps him to.”
of course, the price is all relative. if he’s coming for nothing, then sure why not. its just not a pressing issue for this team.
focus on the SP market, and let teh team do the rest. Steinbrenner and Cashman have done what they needed to do for the final push, now its on the players’ shoulders to bring it home.
Kellerman does a lot of his radio show based on analysis of numbers, which is almost teh complete opposite of most other sports talk radio show hosts in NY.
now, in relative terms to production from the bullpen, including ERA, WHIP, K/IP, etc, and salary considerations, its prob not too far fetched. but he brings it up moreso to spur discussion and get fans to call in to keep the show going.
On behalf of the Rangers, if Cashman offered Kennedy for Salty I will see to it that he’s on the next flight to NYC.
TurnTwo I’d mapquest the directions to the airport.
Mariano > Edwar > Robertson > Scott Proctor > Papelfartface
“On behalf of the Rangers, if Cashman offered Kennedy for Salty I will see to it that he’s on the next flight to NYC.
TurnTwo I’d mapquest the directions to the airport.”
And I would offer a piggy back ride to both players from their present location to the airport.
” the catching situation doesnt need to be fixed. Moeller’s fine.”
You are gonna have to better that to convince me, there is a reason Moeller doesn’t play. The regular catching will catch up to Molina.
I usually agree with Kellerman’s approach – but things like this with Edwar (maybe I have seen too many meltdowns last year) and saying that Melky was comparable to Bernie – while statistically valid – don’t pass the eyeball test.
I have not complained much about Melky b/c his defense is exceptional and he’s a homegrown guy with a good attitude. But even if he doesn’t kill himself sliding into first base he is not going to last long once A-Jax is ready to go.
Mariano > Edwar > Robertson > Scott Proctor > Papelfartface
Who is this mysterious Papelfartface you speak of? ESPN, baseball-reference, nor baseball-prospectus has him listed on any roster in their database.
Russell –
Salty is a big guy – You might wanna go with a rickshaw!
Rosenthal talked to one club official who finds a 50% chance of Gerald Laird or Jarrod Saltalamacchia being traded before the deadline. The Rangers want young pitching.
“You are gonna have to better that to convince me, there is a reason Moeller doesn’t play.”
he’s catching the one or two games a week when Rasner takes the mound. thats all the time a normal backup would see, anyway… day game after night game, etc.
Molina has been fine behind the plate, and has caught regularly in the major leagues before, and he’s not old. why would one assume that he’s going to fall apart soon, or would be unable to handle full-time catching responsibilities for much longer?
In today’s Bergen Record Pete Caldera says that Cashman is happy with Molina and Moeller
Personally, i think the Yankees are going after a starter, but if Washburn doesn’t work out, I think they have something else up their sleeves that might take us by surprise.
Just a hunch.
http://www.rotoworld.com/conte.....amp;spln=1
Yankees, Mariners still talking Washburn
Jarrod Washburn – S – SEA – Jul. 28 – 10:18 am et
According to New York Newsday, the Yankees and Mariners “continue to talk about what level of prospect the Yankees would give up in return for” Jarrod Washburn.
Washburn started Sunday and pitched brilliantly against the Blue Jays despite previous reports that a trade was on the verge of taking place, but apparently the two sides are still haggling over details. The newspaper reports that the Yankees are willing to take on Washburn’s entire remaining contract, but aren’t willing to do that and send the Mariners a legitimate prospect. Meanwhile, the Mariners are said to be holding out for Melky Cabrera or Brett Gardner. Jul. 28 – 10:18 am et
Source: Newsday
.
Make the deal, but they have to take Gardner AND Igawa !
( I wait for rotten tomatoes to be hurled at me now )
Oh, boo. GCL Yanks postponed. Guess we’ll have to wait some more for Hughes.
I would let Igawa and Gardner go, for Washburn and Vidro…
According to Kat O’Brien, the Mariners must think the Yankees are complete and utter fools. A few days after acquiring Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte for pennies on the dollar, the Mariners are holding back on dealing all of Jarrod Washburn’s contract to the Yanks because they want Hank Steinbrenner to step in and demand the Yanks acquire the starter. Clearly, the Mariners have not been paying attention. While Hanks is adept at running his mouth, all his words do are garner headlines. No moves or signings have been consummated or rushed after Hank issues his diatribes. It’s actually rather effective, and the Mariners are deluding themselves if they feel Hank is going to cause a sea change in thinking over Jarrod Washburn. MLBTR speculates that the M’s want Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera.
seriously, how dumb is the Seattle’s new GM? Hank gave Cashman full power to do some needed trades.
agreed, Rebecca. that whole Bannister talk came from nowhere, and i was pleassantly surprised to read the Yankees doing their due dilligence on Greinke before being told he wasnt available.
i think Washburn will get done, and Cashman will hold out and give up nothing for him, but if it all falls thru, i can see Cashman going in another direction and quickly.
Do the trades we see coming ever actually happen? Last year, Molina was out of the blue. This year, Nady and Marte were kind of out of nowhere too. Yet we continue to believe ever trade rumor.
Igawa, yes, but they’d be selling way too low on Gardner.
Rebecca there is no way Cash can be 100 happy w/ Moeller/ I’m sorry I refuse to believe that.
I just don’t see the M’s taking Igawa and $4mill, and giving up Washburn eve if we take all the salary left.
“This year, Nady and Marte were kind of out of nowhere too.”
i wouldnt say it came out of nowhere. i just didnt think Cashman could pull it off for what little they really gave up.
Gardner is Ok IMO but he’s not a stellar prospect, especially his offense.
TurnTwo:
I agree we never really have known who the Yanks have targeted, until the deal is done.
Washburn could be a smoke screen.
TurnTwo: yeah. No one actually expected the Yankees to get them. That’s what I mean. There’s so much talk about Washburn and all this–but will it actually happen?
I know most won’t agree, but if they want Gardner ok, but if it’s Melky, we should ask for Bedard instead.
“Who is this mysterious Papelfartface you speak of? ESPN, baseball-reference, nor baseball-prospectus has him listed on any roster in their database.”
Search under Big-mouth-tight-lips, maybe you’ll get something
“Russell -
Salty is a big guy – You might wanna go with a rickshaw!
”
I’m sure you’ve heard of people lifting cars when under duress… if you can get me Salty for Kennedy I would pull the rickshaw with my teeth.
Bedard isn’t pitching again until September. To me his arm, combined with his questionable psyche/desire to win and pitch deep into games make him serious damaged goods and not want to see him in pinstripes.
“Washburn could be a smoke screen.”
i dont think he’s a smoke screen. i think they really do want him, but arent going to give up anything more than what they want to to get him.
and i wouldnt touch Bedard.
“I would let Igawa and Gardner go, for Washburn and Vidro…”
Russell takes fish and slaps timothy in the face, gaining 10 experience points…
Andrew:
I know but I don’t think he likes the M’s adn if one of the people mentioned could come up until Sept, he would be a huge asset in Sept..I just don’t think he through..
Gardner isn’t very valuable right now but even he is too much to give up for Washburn. If the Yanks are taking on Washburn’s contract the only thing they should give up is a low ceiling A or AA pitcher.
Guthrie always been tough against the yanks
I think the Yankees have 39 players on the 40 man, and thus an open roster spot right now. They could add Aceves without having to make a roster move.
There was an article in prosports that mentioned a possible Melky or Brian Bannister deal. Apply lots of salt cuz that same article mentioned a Cano for Grienke deal being discussed.
So is the hold up to the Washburn deal Seattle insistance on all the money being picked up, AND the Yankees surrending Melky or Gardner?
I don’t know, he seems like the kind of guy that runs from the spotlight, and he would be directly in a very bright spotlight if he was riding in to make hugely important starts for the Yankees during a September pennant race. The guy couldn’t handle being the acquired gun/semi-ace with Seattle, and the expectations that came with that in a smaller market–he sat down after 5 innings almost every time, whether it be because he didn’t feel like pitching or because his hip/back/shoulder hurt a little bit, whatever.
I don’t think he’s the same guy that led the league in strikeouts last year and dominated the Yankees when he faced them, and I don’t know if he ever will be again. But, I think he’s more likely to get traded this fall/winter than he is right now–and even then, I hope the Yankees pass.
Patrick:
I agree unless the Igawa contract is involved.
Russell: I’m sure you’ve heard of people lifting cars when under duress… if you can get me Salty for Kennedy.
This will never happen, oops the fish slapped back I just got 40pts.
Andrew:
I respect your analysis, but I’m not excited about Washburn.
Maybe they will look elsewhere.
“They could add Aceves without having to make a roster move.”
Aceves isn’t ready, he’s still coming back from an injury and he’s on a pitch count. He might be ready in a few weeks but right now he needs to get back to full strength. The open spot on the 40 man could be filled by Washburn.
“So is the hold up to the Washburn deal Seattle insistance on all the money being picked up, AND the Yankees surrending Melky or Gardner?”
Thats what it sounds like but my guess is the Mariners will cave once they realize Cashman isn’t a dope. Either that or they are stuck with a #5 starter that costs them 10 million in a rebuilding year.
I know Cashman loves pitching, I don’t think he will trade Cano.
Of course Cashman will say he’s happy with Molina and Moeller… what else can/should he do? No one in their right mind would find that duo to be such a strength that upgrading it would be out of the question. However publicly acknowledging it is bad negotiating strategy.
Olivo or Ross or even Laird are possiblities. Salty is not.
I don’t think the Yanks will back down on the price for Washburn. Cashman’s history is to be patient when he doesn’t like the price tag. That patience has served him well. He won’t add talent to the deal unless the Mariners take on some $$$… either Igawa or at least Hawkins
Hawkins was released.
“I know Cashman loves pitching, I don’t think he will trade Cano.”
I second that. The farm is depleted of good hitters (aside from the really young guys + Austin Jackson). Yanks won’t let Cano go for pitching.
It sure would be nice to sweep Balt…and let Boston fight it out with the Halo’s…
Hawkins was DFA’d, nobody picked him up.
The only way they trade Canò for pitching is if they’re getting someone like Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee in return.
Oh yeah and I think Tampa is on the road…:)
Hawkins was DFA’d, nobody picked him up.
I;m shocked by this breaking news.
I wouldn’t trade Robbie for Lee, but definately Roy!!!!
“The only way they trade Canò for pitching is if they’re getting someone like Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee in return.”
Tribe would probably do it. Jays wouldn’t do it in a million years.
“Yanks won’t let Cano go for pitching.”
i think they’d have to get a guy who is front end and young in return, but i dont think Cano is completely untouchable.
i’d rather say its really, really, highly unlikely the Yankes would trade Cano for pitching.
Brandon:
Cano is not going to be traded any time soon. If the right deal came along in the offseason, you have to entertain it, but otherwise, what’s the point?
Trade Hawkins!
What is everyone’s thoughts on Nady so far? He’s only got two games in and has probably never played in Fenway before, but he looked kind of crappy yesterday out in LF.
Here’s a good one: if the Sox put Manny on waivers, the Yankees pick him up!!! hahahahaha. Doubt it. But don’t be mistaken, you know Cashman will look into him in the offsaeason.
GreenBeret7:
“Blah, if it was the case that Wakefield is such a good pitcher, he shouldn’t have gotten knocked around on Saturday like he was, oh, I don’t know, Sidney Ponson.”
Really? Pitchers don’t have bad games? Wang never got knocked around? Petitte? Beckett? Interesting logic.
pavano is a lifetime 500 pitcher who just wants a showcase start for his next contract.
When a players is DFA the team still has ten days to move him to another team. the Yankees still control Hawkins and could use his contract to offset a contract they are picking up if they find a willing partner.
I’m sure Seattle tried to get the Yanks to give up something for Sexson, but with his contract there was no chance at all. Hawkins is owed about $ 1.3 M so it’s not out of the question.
g, try reaqding what was said before that lead to that remark. If Wakefield is allowed to have a bad game, why isn’t Ponson?