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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The trade that hurt both teams

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 20, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees are 3-7 in the games Pudge Rodriguez has started since he came over from the Tigers. He is 8 for 35 (.229) with one RBI. Andy Pettitte threw to him once then asked not to again.

The Tigers are 3-4 in the games Kyle Farnsworth has pitched in. Over 7.3 innings, he has allowed 13 hits (three HRs) and six earned runs.

Obviously it’s a trade that made perfect sense at the time. But it sure hasn’t worked out the way Brian Cashman and Dave Dombrowski thought it would.

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177 Responses to “The trade that hurt both teams”

  1. Joe August 20th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    There is stll a better chance that the Yankees benefit from this trade before the season ends. The Tigers are not going to get anything of benefit from Farnsworth that will help them win a spot in the playoffs.

  2. ray (sox fan) August 20th, 2008 at 10:20 am

    Why did Pettite and apparently other pitchers communicate that they did not want to pitch to Pudge?

  3. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 10:21 am

    my guess is that Pudge has a chance to net the Yankees a type-A pick when he goes FA, when Farnsworth might have only gotten type-b status.

    other than that, yeah, pretty much shifting around the deck chairs on the titanic.

    on paper, though, it didnt hurt to try.

  4. fuhgoobagaz August 20th, 2008 at 10:21 am

    Joe… huh? Like the Yankees finishing in 3rd place rather than 4th?

  5. frits August 20th, 2008 at 10:23 am

    are we going to get a clarification on whether pavano was hurt or not?

    pete said he was, kepner said that cashman said he wasn’t. are they two separate issues? what’s the real story?

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....e-on-deck/

  6. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    ray –

    I haven’t seen any quotes to the effect that the Yanks pitchers didn’t want to pitch to Pudge – but my understanding is that early in his career Pudge developed a reputation for calling for pitches to help him throw out runners rather than help the pitchers.

    All the reporting around his time with the Yanks has emphasized his commitment to learning the pitchers. He shows up early and watches tape, etc. So if he was only hitting it would be great.

    Some folks want to keep him around b/c of questions about Posada catching going into next year. PErsonally, I’d prefer to get the draft picks.

  7. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    I couldn’t be more frustrated with this entire team. WHY Giambi would not even consider dropping down a bunt when Toronto put on an exaggerated shift with NO ONE on the left side of the infield. Can’t stand watching him swing for the fences all the time.

    And Damon seemed to be going through the motions last night. The strikeout swinging was pathetic. The dropped fly balls were embarrassing. My Little League players would have made both catches and they don’t make millions of dollars.

  8. pat August 20th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Cashman said Pavano will be pitching on Saturday. He just isn’t sure if it will be for the Yankees or the Thunder.

  9. They shoot horses don't they? August 20th, 2008 at 10:27 am

    A trade that hurt both teams?

    That assumes that Molina could have held up catching 90% + of the games remaining.

    I am sure that Crashman would have been killed on this board if he had a chance to get a HOF catcher (even one in decline) and passed in order to hang on to Moeller.

    And honestly Farnsie was just one blown lead away from the same old scorn and derision.

  10. Joey's Poodle August 20th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    We are judging I-Rod by whether he’s as good as Posada or Molina, when it could be argued that the guy he really replaced was Moeller.

    Haven’t seen anything in writing about why our more experienced guys don’t like to pitch to Pudge but he had a reputation as a bossy, arrogant guy who refused to attend pitchers/catchers meetings and wanted everybody to do things his way without question.

  11. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Does Giambi even know how to bunt?

  12. ray (sox fan) August 20th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Thank you for that info TK.

  13. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 10:29 am

    The trade of Farnsworth ALONE was addition by subtraction.

  14. Jeremy August 20th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    Pete writes this after Pudge catches Rasner in one of his best starts of the season.

    Sometimes I think Pete writes “analysis” on this site just to get a rise out of people. Like the 8 for 35 comment. I’m sure he knows that 35 ABs is a meaningless sample size. If Pudge had 4 more bloop singles, he would be about a .333 hitter as a Yankee.

    Acquiring Pudge also prevents the Yankees from having to overwork Molina. Plus there’s a good chance that Pudge’s Type A status will net the Yankees two draft picks next season.

    The comment about Pettitte is interesting, but there’s no explanation. Pettitte could just prefer pitching to Molina.

    There’s almost no way this trade could end up hurting the Yankees.

  15. pat August 20th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    I wonder how much of the pitchers preferring to pitch to Molina is nothing more than he is more familiar with their tendencies, patterns and repetoire.

  16. Rebecca--Optimist Prime August 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Cashman went for the kill and ended up committing teamicide.

    That said, Pudge isn’t the reason Giese or Joba are hurt, and he’s not the reason Giambi and Alex aren’t too good with runners on base.

  17. BigV August 20th, 2008 at 10:32 am

    FINDING WAYS TO LOSE GAMES…….

    THis trade has zero affect on this season- Bad teams find ways to lose games, whether it is wild pitches, runners getting thrown trying to get an extra base in the last inning (and justifying it) or dropping balls they should catch.

    Bring on 2009 – this team needs to take it’s medicine and play the rookies so we have a better idea for next year. You have to know when to take a step back to move 2 forward.

    I’ll give this to lover boy HANK – he gets it.

    Isn’t Love grand?

  18. Jeremy August 20th, 2008 at 10:32 am

    “Cashman went for the kill and ended up committing teamicide.”

    What does that even mean?

  19. frits August 20th, 2008 at 10:33 am

    so pettite pitched to him once and asked not to throw to him again. and the next time when he pitched, when he let up 5 ER in 5 IP, that’s supposed to be a good thing?

    maybe its not the catcher that’s the problem…huh.

  20. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 10:33 am

    Hey Sunny615…

    Ortiz has bunted on a couple of occassions this year just to keep teams from over shifting too much. DESPERATE TIMES, ALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES!

  21. big apple August 20th, 2008 at 10:34 am

    I know we can hate on A-Rod but Giambi is just pathetic.

  22. big apple August 20th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    Put Tex in that spot this year and this team would probably be 5 games ahead of TB

  23. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 10:36 am

    “Cashman went for the kill and ended up committing teamicide.

    That said, Pudge isn’t the reason Giese or Joba are hurt, and he’s not the reason Giambi and Alex aren’t too good with runners on base.”

    agreed. the idea was right, but its on the players to produce on the field, which they’ve been unable to do with consistency all year. very frustrating.

  24. ohgodno August 20th, 2008 at 10:36 am

    I wanna know how thick-headed and brainless you have to be to see that your current approach at the plate is failing miserably. Giambi and ARod’s “close your eyes, swing as hard as you can and pray for a double” approach is tough to watch.

    What happened to guys just putting the bat on the ball? The guy on the mound is throwing 85-95 any given day, just stick the bat out and poke something over the infield.

    This teams approach to Burnett was particularly terrible, trying to overpower a power pitcher. He, like most good pitchers, basically gives you one pitch to hit the whole at bat. Instead of trying to overpower the guy by swinging as hard as you possibly can and likely giving yourself a hernia, pick out a fastball (since you’re not hitting that curve) and hit it where its pitched. Everyone was getting FBs away, JUST STICK THE FREAKING BAT OUT!! SIT ON THAT PITCH!!!! Once he gets two strikes on you, go ahead and swing for your closed eyes double you’re going to strike out anyway, but at least TRY to start with a good approach at the plate.

    I guess nobody (except Cano who tried and got robbed) learned from Abreu’s 1st inning hit.

    Giambi yesterday with the ENTIRE Blue Jay defense on the right side of the field and Jeter on 1st could have stuck the bat out, rolled a ball down the third base line, and Jeter would have scored easily. BUT THE STACHE WAS SELFISH. He had dreams of beating the shift, rather than beating the Blue Jays.

    Its quite obvious that a lot of these players have more personal pride that what we like to call “Yankee Pride.” It means more to come through for THEMSELVES, rather than their TEAM.

    Last night was one of the most blatant examples of this. Nady trotted over to the foul line to “give a look” at a ball that he could have lunged into the stands to get. Rather than getting the out, Rasner had to throw more pitches. Make your pitcher work hard, nice work. Oh and make sure to swing at the first pitch when you come to bat in the top of the next inning. Three examples in the 9th: ARod tries to take the Earth out of orbit by turning a blooper into a double. Giambi and Nady thinking they’re in a HR derby.
    We’ve all been saying this since the Giambi (superstar) era began, that there is no “team concept.” That starts with management, but it ends with the players. Girardi’s and Torre’s words likely fall on deaf ears.

    The sooner GMs realize that the success of a player is influenced by the guys around him, his team and how they work together, and not by his numbers, the sooner we’ll see winning teams built again. I’m convinced a team full of ARod’s would win AT MOST 40 games a year. ARod as a pitcher would try to strike everyone out on a pitch exactly on the corner, and walk close to 300 in a season. A lineup of ARods would have as many HRs as Ks.

    Nobody is willing to do what they need to do to win. Damon won’t bunt, Giambi won’t go the other way, Bobby won’t get within 9 feet of an outfield wall, ARod won’t let his team get the job done. The blame can be spread all around. I feel bad for the kids that have no chance of playing in the majors because these selfish guys get paid to pad their numbers.

    Maybe Girardi shouldn’t allow ANY food in the clubhouse next year… maybe then they’ll be hungry.

  25. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 10:36 am

    If Papi can bunt – why the heck can’t Giambi???

  26. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 10:39 am

    Cashman didn’t go for the kill – going for the kill would have meant that Carsten Charles Sabbathia would be throwing 130 pitches in pinstripes instead in the home of Schlitz.

    And I have no problem with this because I think that sacrificing the future for a stud pitcher rental was not the right move.

    This season’s final month might be painful, but at least we didn’t compound it by damaging future years.

  27. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 10:40 am

    nevermind – we all know giambi is what he is… a pretty useless stat compiler.

  28. russ in tampa from long island August 20th, 2008 at 10:41 am

    i would of traded farnie for chad moellor.i-rod is not problem.the team needs to be broken apart.showalter could help with this.so could stick.if i look at giambi’s shift in 2009 i will lose it.they are old and lazyi am embarrsed for them.

  29. 27 this year August 20th, 2008 at 10:42 am

    Giambi is never going to hit for average. The only way he gets hits are if they are over the wall, in the corner, or line drives over the short right fielder (2B man). He never gets ground ball hits because he only hits the ball where there are three infielders instead of two. He is stupid and doesn’t realize that it is hard enough to get a hit when there are two guys on that side but nearly impossible when there are three guys. Long tries to tell him but Giambi ignores him.

  30. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 10:44 am

    Pudge does well with the younger pitchers who need guidance. Ponson and Rasner.

    He needs to adjust his style with the vets. Like the great McCarver says catcher is the most difficult position to transition in the middle of a season. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of time.

    Posada’s status leaves us in a bind next season as well. A lot of backstop decisions are settled in the offseason. You had teams fighting over LoDuca and Torrealba this past winter. Yeesh.

    We’re very lucky we have Molina for another year. He’s good enough to start the year, but if Jorge’s a no-go another catcher will need to be acquired. I don’t think Jorge’s ego could handle signing a starter.

    The talk of signing I-rod have died down a little. BTW I-rod as not really called a stinker right? We’re losing games because we’re literally not hitting. The pitching and catching have not been the problem. I don’t think it’s an indictment of Ivan, but a preference for Molina. As Kay said. Universally, the whole staff prefers to pitch to Jose. Some would probably prefer him over Jorge.

  31. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 10:45 am

    I just hope and pray the Giambi is done here.  Let him go play somewhere where I don’t have to watch like Seattle or something.

    Great personality – but he’s cooked.

  32. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    edit: I don’t think that Jorge’s ego can handle signing another catcher in the offseason as insurance.

  33. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    It is time to realize – actually far beyond the time to realize – that Giambi is simply not capable of consistently of hitting the ball to left field. Sure, he has done so on occasion, but not nearly enough to make other teams re-think their shift.

  34. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 10:49 am

    LOL at LoDuca –

    When a guy has been DFA’d by Jim ‘Cold Pizza’ Bowden they must really be finished.

    I have no interest in Pudge – regardless of Posada’s health. Lets go with some caddy for Molina who is younger and cheaper.

  35. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Sunny615… Giambi wouldn’t ever consider bunting because it BELOW him to do that. All he know’s is to swing for the fences. He is sooooo not a team player. Just like Cano, Abreu, A-Rod.

    This team is embarrassing. But it seems they don’t care. They just care about getting their money.

  36. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 10:51 am

    I keep Molina. Maybe he might have to catch Mussina & Pettite next year. you never know if Posada’s shoulder is gonna be fully healed. I like how he cathes our veterans, Look what Mussina & he accomplished.

  37. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 10:52 am

    Again last night the Yanks, failed to do the fundamentals.
    13 K’s…….how about a bunt, I said prviously Hideki wasn’t ready and I stand by that, he should have been an option off the bench. Gardner should have been patrolling CF, Damon at DH.

    Unfortunately there has been no change in their approach at the plaet all year, they are 2 games from being totally out of this race, being most of the remaining games are against, Toronto, Boston and Tampa. Going 500 against them leaves us in the exact same position standings wise we are right now.

    They need a 07 Rockies type of run, but unless fundamentals start tonight, I just don’t see it happening.
    It really doesn’t matter who pitch’s, we have had enough good pitching to be in 1st place. Our offense, not playing fundamental abseball has got us in this position.

    Watching last night leaves me feeling really bummed that they didn’t even try to do fundamentla things….

  38. pat August 20th, 2008 at 10:52 am

    ohgodno

    The only thing wrong with your rant is you are asking players to be what they are not and have never been.

    The Yankees have built a team to be the Bronx Bombers and you want them to be the Bronx Bunters. Nothing wrong with the Bronx Bunters but that is not who was hired.

    Players who see their approach isn’t working, can’t just flip a switch and be something they are not. Successful teams take advantage of their players strengths and surround them with other players that pick up their weaknesses.

    The Yanks this year may just have too many players with the same strengths and weaknesses.

  39. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    Looking back, I really hate The Jason Giambi Era. Oh yeah, he was a great guy, he wanted to come to New York. But the negatives far outweigh the positives during his time in pinstripes, and it would be lunacy to even consider bringing him back for even the biggest discount he would consider. I thought he had the potential to have a 2006-type season where he started off terribly and then got hot and stayed hot and effectively carried a big chunk of the offense. But the more you see him this year, the more you know that his abilities as a hitter have escaped him completely and he is too stubborn or selfish or whatever you want to call it to make any adjustments.

  40. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    Phelps Phan,

    I think Molina signed a 2 yr. deal. We were raving at what a smart move that was at the beginning of the season.

  41. russ in tampa from long island August 20th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    coach
    abreu has good at bats unlke a-rod and cano and giambi

  42. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    The trade wasn’t particularly good or bad for either team. The downward trend for both teams since the deal is more about the teams not being all that great moreso than the deal itself.

  43. Brian (Red Sox Fan) August 20th, 2008 at 10:57 am

    Pudge has a reputation for calling for fastballs when there are runners on base (to protect his “runners caught stealing” %). Pitchers (especially veteran pitchers) hated the predicatble pitch selection when Pudge caught.

    No idea if it’s still the case, but I suspect that it is.

  44. ohgodno August 20th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    EVERY player should know how to bunt. Even your cleanup hitter. And ESPECIALLY your leadoff hitter.

    It doesn’t matter that Giambi hasn’t bunted in 10,000 ABs, he should still know how to and WHEN to spring it on another team.

    I’m not asking Giambi to steal 60 bases a year, what I want is someone that is willing to do what it takes to win. Even if it means leaving his comfort zone to get an RBI.

    I know its not just a switch, but we’re 120 games into this season, and I think thats long enough to adjust.

  45. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Molina is under contract for next year at $2M – outside of Joba – that has to be one of the best values on the roster.

    I’m sure Moose would agree :)

  46. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    pat -

    I was just going to post what you just did. A leopard can’t change his spots. It’s that simple.

  47. Whiff (Cano's bat) August 20th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    Good or bad, this trade did nothing to help or hurt this team.

    Keeping Kyle does not get the Yankees any more wins than adding pudge and his bat has helped.

    When a team is helpless, well the word itself says it all: Helpless.

    Yankees need to start focusing immediately on next year and prevent running out a defective product like they did this year. This is the first year since 91-92, that the Yankee fans were foced to accept mediocrity and legitimacy.

  48. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    I will be in Baltimore on Friday and Saturday. My seats are 7 rows from the Yankees ondeck circle. My wife is worried about what I’m going to say to these guys.

    My kids will be with us too so using vulgarity is not an option. LOL!

  49. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    TK,

    I think it’s safe to say that if we didn’t have Jose, there would be zero chance Moose comes back for an encore. :)

  50. ET2012 August 20th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Before the trade deadline, I said on this blog that the Yankees did not need to make a trade. They were winning with the players they had, and had chemistry in the clubhouse.

    The bullpen had no lefty, but was doing a great job, yes even with Farnsworth and Hawkins. The lineup was producing enough runs to win games. They had momentum.

    But no, the management thought they had to have a lefty in the pen, and needed a better catcher than Molina who was doing an excellent job with the pitchers and running everybody out at second.

    So, here comes Marte who has been awful, and Pudge who has not hit and neither Pettite nor Moose want to pitch to. The only silver lining on this trade cloud has been Nady who has hit well and done a good job on defense.

    I hope the Yanks have learned from this. WHEN SOMETHING IS WORKING WELL, DO NOT MESS WITH IT; LEAVE IT ALONE!

  51. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Giambi should be practice bunting right now, because hitting a grounder to the rightside with 7 fielder’s on the rightside is a very poor strategy.

  52. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Kyle was getting into his groove (and it’s clear he loved being a Yankee), but we needed a catcher.

  53. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Russ in Tampa…

    Yeah, maybe last night. But he can be a great hitter if he changed his lack luster approach. Just hit the ball and stop ‘guess’ hitting. He takes strike one 80% of the time.

  54. jd jr August 20th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Did we ever determine if it was pudge who hurt Joba when he almost took his head off after a foul tip, unecessary throw to second base?
    Joba literally fell on his head!!!

  55. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Right now Giambi should be looking for a new home next year, not bunting.

  56. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    When Girardi took Kyle out in the 8th inning in Fenway after botching the dribbler down the line – that was all Ca$hman had to see.

    If the manager who has been puffing up a fragile relief pitcher gives him the hook – there is no reason to keep him around. I think it was a smart move that just hasn’t delivered as much as hoped.

  57. Jeff NJ: Let Joba Play August 20th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    I can’t wait until Giambi is off this team. He got the golden sombrero yesterday and it doesn’t even get mentioned. Can Joe G. show some urgency and at least drop him to the bottom of the lineup? I suspect he will sit today against a lefty, but he is so friggin awful. It may just have been the worst contract ever given in sports.

  58. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    Coach:

    When there in the on-deck circle, yell “SITUATIONAL HITTING, MOVE THE RUNNER OVER, TRY A BUNT”……..

  59. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    Timothy… Ok, that will make my wife happy. No swearing!

  60. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    Even Giambi could lay down a bunt to the 3rd base side and beat it out for a hit…..There is no one there to field it…

  61. Fran August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am

    Mel – I think that you are right about Jose! Pettitte and Moose were very comfortable pitching to him. I don’t think it was a knock against Rodriquez as it was just their comfort level with Molina. Trading for and signing Molin for 2 years was one of Cshman’s best moves.

  62. TKinDC (Robbie Cano - Don't Sell Low!) August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am

    Tim –

    Trying to teach Giambi to bunt is like making Shaq spend hours on free throws. It sounds reasonable but is actually 100% pointless.

    If they could do it – they would. They just can’t.

  63. Fran August 20th, 2008 at 11:09 am

    correction ** Molina and Cashman

  64. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    We’ll know who you are when security is dragging away some guy yelling, “But I’m a coach! Ask Timmy! I’m a coach!”

  65. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    Hideki should have been on the bench, and Gardner playing he know’s how to bunt and has plenty of speed..

  66. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 11:12 am

    LOL!!!

  67. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:12 am

    Fran,

    I have trouble with “m”. :)

    You know what they say about senior citizens. Worse than children!

  68. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:13 am

    TKinDC:

    I’m sorry I just don’t buy he doesn’t know how to. Yes he is in the 5th position of the batting order and normally that is an RBI producer, however they need to try something different, it is so obvious, how can a Pro not no how to bunt…

  69. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:13 am

    The only reason Giambi is playing is because he make $23,000,000.00……………that’s it

  70. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    “Kyle was getting into his groove (and it’s clear he loved being a Yankee), but we needed a catcher.”

    True. The issue with Pudge is that I think people thought they were getting a reasonable facsimile of the HOF Pudge, when in fact he is now a well below offensive player (borderline average by today’s catcher standards) with greatly diminished defensive skills. He’s’ added absolutely nothing. No accident he was sent packing by the Tigers for a shaky relief pitcher despite them having a little postseason life at the time (4.5-5 games behind CWS and MIN) on the day of the trade).

  71. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    Giambi makes more than the Florida Marlins Payroll

  72. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    “He got the golden sombrero yesterday and it doesn’t even get mentioned.”

    Why should it get mentioned? Besides Abreu, Giambi’s remaining teammates were every bit as lousy as he was.

  73. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    I say we give the Marlins 23,000,000
    and they give us whoever we want.

  74. pat August 20th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    Doreen

    Great minds! :smile:

  75. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Fran,

    Oops. That read wrong. The senior citizens are Andy and Moose, not you and I (even though I suspect we’re all near in age!)

  76. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    to me the key is that these guys like Giambi need to, on occasion, try to pull of a bunt or hitting outside the shift, or whatever, on a regular basis in a game situation. I don’t mean every game, but just enough so that in a tough situation, it’s not something that’s strange to them. Under pressure, a person is going to do what feels comfortable, natural – something they don’t have to think about.

    I don’t know if the Yankees power hitters practice bunting in batting practice, but if they do not, I would suggest that it be incorporated, if not every day, well, at least once a week. I also hope that those skills will be addressed during spring training on more than a “let’s get this over with” basis, and with the veterans, not just the young guys.

  77. Bob(The Original) August 20th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    “Cashman went for the kill and ended up committing teamicide.”

    Huh?

    Went for the kill? How so?

    And whatever you mean, those trades had pretty much no effect on where this team is going this year. The old, slow bat, incompent hitters are responsible for that.

  78. wolf man (2008 is over) August 20th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    i have a feeling pudge will accept arbitration if it is offered.

  79. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:23 am

    I say we take the 23,000,000
    and buy the entire Twins minor league coaching & Staff.

  80. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:23 am

    “And whatever you mean, those trades had pretty much no effect on where this team is going this year.”

    True….but they were meant to.

  81. mel-go, go, Waipio! August 20th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    Doreen,

    I can’t stand the Angels, but they do a lot of things right. Focusing on fundamentals in the minors and reinforcing them in the majors. Fielding and running in various situations. Impressive. It’s not glamorous, but it works because players can manufacture runs instead of trying to end the game on a swing.

  82. Bob(The Original) August 20th, 2008 at 11:27 am

    Rotoworld has picked up and ran with Pete’s comment:

    According to the New York Journal News, after working with catcher Ivan Rodriguez for one start last week Andy Pettitte “asked not to again.”

    No one has ever questioned Rodriguez’s arm, but this isn’t the first time that his pitch-calling has been criticized. The future Hall of Famer is hitting 8-for-35 (.229) since joining the Yankees.
    Source: New York Journal News
    Related: Andy Pettitte

  83. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:27 am

    And as for the Pudge/Farnsworth trade, I’d say it hasn’t helped either team, but it would be difficult to say that it has actually hurt either team; neither team was in such wonderful shape to begin with.

    Matsui is going to be difficult to move, because he’ll be having knee surgery once the season is done. Any activity on that front would have to wait for the spring, I’d think. Damon is expendable in the right move, but then they’re left without a proven lead-off guy.

    I have been an Abreu supporter and if he stays with the team, I won’t be upset. But neither will I be upset if he is not re-signed, if other improvements are made.

  84. pat August 20th, 2008 at 11:28 am

    Doreen

    David Cone said on a game last week that he was on the field during BP watching A-Rod lay down bunts that day. I don’t know if that was unusual but he did make a point of mentioning it so it might be.

  85. JohnnMcCabe August 20th, 2008 at 11:28 am

    Pudge may be a type A free agent at the end of the season, but the Yankees aren’t going to get any draft picks. In order to get draft picks, the Yankees have to offer Pudge arbitration. They won’t. Why risk having Pudge be a $14 million dollar backup?

  86. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Phelps Phan
    August 20th, 2008 at 11:17 am
    I say we give the Marlins 23,000,000
    and they give us whoever we want.
    ————-
    how about we ask them to take giambi off our hands.

  87. Fran August 20th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Mel – LOL. I did at first read that we were the senior citizens! I felt like one trying to type the letter A.

  88. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    “Why should it get mentioned? Besides Abreu, Giambi’s remaining teammates were every bit as lousy as he was.”

    I will say this, though–I think Giambi is spared the ridicule of the likes of A-Rod or Cano or Cabrera or others when he looks bad at the plate or makes a mental error or something along those lines, because he’s good with the press and well-liked in the clubhouse. During his only hot streak of the season he was being all kinds of slurped, and he’s gotten an extremely long leash while he has been awful at the plate and average in the field for most of the season.

  89. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    “i have a feeling pudge will accept arbitration if it is offered.”

    It won’t be offered…..but you’re right.

  90. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    mel -

    What kills me, and I bet it kills Girardi, too, is when the Yankees play a game against a team like the Angels, or even the Twins, Girardi and even some of the players will talk in wonderment about how those teams can do “all the little things to beat you,” or they can “play the game right.” There seems to be a major disconnect! They admire that style, but either don’t, can’t or won’t do it themselves.

    Next spring is where Girardi has to take a stand in on incorporating this type of baseball into the repertoire of the Yankees; this winter is when Cashman has to find the players who are willing to do it.

  91. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    I say we take the 23,000,000
    and buy Tampa’s AAA & AA teams.

  92. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    More than likely, there will be an agreement in place for Pudge to decline arbitration. He (like Posada) has a big ego and will not be any teams backup catcher. Pudge won’t take a one year deal either. It’s probably his last chance at a multi year deal somewhere. Another factor against Pudge accepting aribtration (and probably the biggest) is his agent – Boras. Boras doesn’t do one year deals.

  93. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    I applaud A-rod for trying to take 2nd last night, because he knew no one would try to move him over to 2nd. He know’s no one play’s fundamentally.

  94. stuart August 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Pettitte is not exactly a rhodes scholar. he needs guidance when he pitches and how do you expect a catcher who has never caught him to guide him?

    more blather about nothing… Yeah the yanks really miss that star Farnsworth.. The tigers and the yanks suck, both are old and under achieving with many selfish inflexible players.

    the difference is Detroit should stink for a while;; that sheff contract is a real beauty…

  95. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    ““i have a feeling pudge will accept arbitration if it is offered.”

    It won’t be offered…..but you’re right.”

    why would he accept arbitration if he can get a multi-year deal, for more money, on another team?

  96. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    (excluding Adruw Jones) – but he’s fallen off the map.

  97. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    pat -

    I’m glad to hear that ARod’s doing it, and it doesn’t surprise me that he is. For all that he’s not been successful this season, I never ever doubt his work ethic. Who knows, perhaps he’ll surprise us one day when he feels he reached a comfort zone and lay one down!

    But it’s not just ARod who needs to do it.

  98. Clay Buchholz stole my laptop (My Latest Blog Entry: Some Thoughts, And An Absolutely Hysterical Video) August 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    The Pudge/Farnsworth trade was still worth it in my opinion. Farnsworth would have started to suck again for us, plus Molina would have probably worn out if he had to catch every day.

  99. Bob(The Original) August 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Who cares about draft picks?

    We either don’t sign them or spend them on pitchers who need TJ surgery.

  100. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    “I applaud A-rod for trying to take 2nd last night, because he knew no one would try to move him over to 2nd. He know’s no one play’s fundamentally.”

    unfortunately, it should also be pointed out that he didnt run hard out of the box, and made an awful turn at 1B, which in combo with a great play by Overbay, was the reason he was out at 2B.

    it was the right idea by ARod, but awful execution.

  101. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    arod tried for second because no one on the team can seem to hit and he tried to give the team the best chance to tie the game. Giambi was an instant strikeout and would not have moved him over. His best chance to score would have come from Nady – and to score, he’d have to move to second.

  102. bardos August 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    it’s the number of long balls and rbi’s that will win giambi a decent contract come this winter. hitting grounders or bunting to the left side only helps the team, and where is that at?

    it’s an easy decision, really.

  103. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    very tro TurnTwo

  104. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    tro = true

  105. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    sunny615,

    i can dig it.

  106. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    I say we take the 23,000,000
    and buy food poisening for every contending team.

  107. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:38 am

    They shouldn’t offer any of them arbitration, if we are going after pitching we need to be able to manufacture runs.
    We should go after guys that will do the fundamentals, play defense, and hope Mo will last in the 1 run nail biter’s.

  108. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:38 am

    “why would he accept arbitration if he can get a multi-year deal, for more money, on another team?”

    1) He’s not that good anymore
    2) Arbitration gets him $14M for a year. He won’t get 60% of that as an annual salary elsewhere.
    3) $14M over one year >>>> $14M over 2 years

  109. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:39 am

    TurnTwo:

    Totally agree….

  110. Fran August 20th, 2008 at 11:39 am

    “Why should it get mentioned? Besides Abreu, Giambi’s remaining teammates were every bit as lousy as he was.”

    Andrew- I think that also many of us feel that Giambi is gone after his season and maybe Abreu as well. People tend to focus on ARod because of the contract’s dollar amount and the fact that he is here for 9 more years.

    Although if the past is any indication ARod should have an MVP type season next year. He seems to have a “poor” season (for him) after an MVP season and then bounces back.

  111. stuart August 20th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    yeah I applaud Arod especially for his 2nd K last night.

    He could atch that 93 MPH fastball go right down the middle as he never moved his bat 1 inch.

    IF you AROD lovers have not noticed Arod is not a winning player. How many years do you need to figure this out? the guy tenses up when it matters… If Arod gets hot he may get 100 RBI’s, whoppty doo…… I forgot once they are eliminated he will turn it on.. Giambi just stinks, he will get a Frank Thomas $5 mill for 1 yr contract from some crappy team like Seattle.. Giambi stinks and they need to have 3 other players on the roster to cover for his deficiencies, but hey he is a nice guy so what the heck..

  112. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:41 am

    “Boras doesn’t do one year deals.”

    Sure he does. See: Rodriguez, Ivan – 2003.

  113. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 11:42 am

    “1) He’s not that good anymore
    2) Arbitration gets him $14M for a year. He won’t get 60% of that as an annual salary elsewhere.
    3) $14M over one year >>>> $14M over 2 years”

    you may not like him anymore, but he’s a productive veteran player. he’ll get a multi-year contract.

    arbitration will net him that much, but he’ll get a minimum of $10 a year to play somewhere, especially when other teams take a look at what other FA OFers there are on the market.

    $20 million > $14 million

  114. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 am

    “Who cares about draft picks?”

    Oh, you know, every other team that the Yankees are competing against. Nowadays, Bob, teams actually value first and second round picks. The Yankees do, too, as hard as it may be to believe considering how they missed on 2/3 of their picks in this year’s first 2 rounds. But that is their strategy, to gamble on potentially high-end talent that is available but has question marks, be it health or otherwise. It’s worked in the past, but it failed this year. And the jury is still out on Brackman, so I don’t think you can condescend on that pick just yet.

    One year of failed gambles in the draft doesn’t mean the Yankees should now suddenly forget about the draft altogether, especially when the rest of the league is placing more and more importance on it.

  115. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 am

    stuart:

    It’s not that we haven’t noticed, but we have him for 10 more years.

    With the money Giambi/Abreu is getting you can get 6 fundamentally good baseball player’s.

  116. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 am

    I would respectfully disagree Fredo. There are numerous teams (Marlins, Red Sox, WhiteSox) that are looking for decent catchers and Boras would make sure that he’d get $10-12 mil per year for two to three years.

  117. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    He does one years to reestablish market value. With obvious teams in need, he’d get his multi year deal for Pudge.

  118. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    I think A-rod should start swinging at the 1st pitch, it is usually a fast ball and right down the middle…….

  119. Bob(The Original) August 20th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    Andrew,

    I know quite well how important draft picks are.

    My comment was sarcastic, given my frustration with what happened this year.

  120. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Did you guys watch that special on E-60 about the Yankees in China ?

    pretty sweet i thought.

  121. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:46 am

    A-rod usually gets 1 great pitch to hit in his at bat’s. it’s usually numero uno.

  122. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 11:48 am

    Fran, I understand the scrutiny put on A-Rod for all the reasons you mentioned, but my point is more that I think Giambi is quicker to get a pass or be overlooked when it comes time for both the press to play the blame game for the 2008 team’s failures, as well as when Girardi looks for ways to get the lineup going. How has it never crossed his mind to A) move Giambi down in the lineup, B) bench him and try someone else (especially now that they have Nady) at 1st during one of his now-frequent slumps?

    That’s what I was getting at, more than anything.

  123. trisha - I am a Sidney supporter. August 20th, 2008 at 11:49 am

    The one thing you can count on is for someone on the forum to represent your point of view. That’s how divergent the opinions are about just about everything discussed here.

    So I will say that:

    1. I didn’t fault Arod for trying to take 2nd for the same reason Timothy just pointed out.

    2. I don’t blame the offense for not doing better last night since it was obvious that the Jays pitcher had his stuff working.

    3. It seems that everyone comes up to the plate trying to win the whole game and the worse it gets in terms of the season whittling down, the worse I fear it is going to get in terms of play potentially looking worse and not better – and if it happens it isn’t because the team is terrible so much as the team is not pressing all the time – and you know where that gets you.

    4. Damon unfortunately had some problems at a very bad time to have problems. We all know that those balls should have been caught. He knows they should have been caught. He is one of our hardest working players. The most you can say is it’s too bad it had to happen. (On the other hand, as was pointed out, if Damon wasn’t in the lineup you wouldn’t have even scored the first run…)

    5. I was super excited to get Girardi as the Yankee manager. It is obvious to me now that he didn’t come as ready-made as I would have hoped. That isn’t to say he can’t figure things out and make some changes next season – don’t know if he has the wherewithal to try for this season because he has all he can do to get through a game. We all know the pressure at this point is at its peak so I don’t think he can be as clear-headed as if it were the beginning of the season.

    6. I still would not want Torre back no matter how this season ends up. To me he had regressed with the team and reached some level of “equilibrium” that seemed to have stagnated. Maybe he had a team that could no longer be motivated. Maybe just reaching the postseason was seen as a really good thing, even though winning the world series would of course have been nice.

    7. I am plum out of answers and have no ability to figure out this team or this season. I know the stuff you can put on paper about injuries, etc., but it just seems to be so much more than that. So I am at the mercy that we’re all at: waiting, watching, wondering, willing.

    I’d like to say that I’m having fun, but frankly I’m not. I can’t write off the season because there are still games to play, and anything can happen. But when I go back to #3 and think about how teams press when they are under inordinate pressure to win, well then it really puts an edge on the warm and fuzzy thought of “gee what if!”

  124. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    Nady Plays 1B ?

  125. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    Turn Two:

    He’s not a productive veteran anymore. He’s a terrible offensive player with no discipline and and ordinary at best defensive catcher. You tell me a team that would give up a Top 30 pick for a 38 year old catcher, who’s been a below average offensive player since 2004 and has diminishing catching skills??? I can think of ZERO AL teams who would take him. Not sure on the NL, but know you can eliminate Chicago, St Lou, Pitt, Was, Fla, LA, Zona, Col, SF and Atlanta from the list. Who’s it going to be? Are we counting on Minaya to be Crazy Omar again???

  126. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Yeah, but this year’s draft is still even too early to judge–the first two rounds are really disappointing because of Cole and Bittle, but there are other players from later rounds who will pop up in a year or two that might make you say the 2008 draft wasn’t as bad as you first thought it was, etc.

    But, I definitely understand and agree that it’s hard to be that optimistic when you are faced with 2/3 of the top guys picked not being in the system. Can only hope for better results next June.

  127. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Andrew -

    Giambi gets criticized, but I’ll agree that it seems that he’s given more a pass than ARod. I think it comes down to the fact that Giambi is a more likeable, approachable player. People have a more difficult time warming up to ARod, it seems.

  128. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    In reading all our comments, it is VERY clear we all are completely baffled by the play of this team.

    Those of us (maybe all) that have played or coached baseball competitively just can’t understand the lack of effort displayed by this bunch of high priced bellhops!

    I’m so tired of hearing about the “Yankee way…” (no facial hair, keep hair short, etc.), the Championships. How about playing the game to win as a team!

    And I won’t even go into how bad a listen John Sterling and Susan Waldman are. Basically, the Yanks have the best offense and best rotation in the league if you listen to them.

    Anyway, I have resigned myself to accept the fact that this team is flawed and will not be competitive next year if many changes aren’t made.

  129. Jose August 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    Next years draft is week anyway so it’s not like it matters.

    They’ll probably go conservative anyway after what happened with Cole. Heck, they went conservative the rest of the draft anyway.

  130. Betsy August 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    SJ44, I know you really believe that Andy and Moose need to be re-signed, but I firmly disagree. Moose, I’d love to re-sign, but Andy has not been good this year; he’s been very up and down.

    I don’t think CC is coming here and anyone that assumes he is is making a big mistake. Doreen made a good point in the previous thread – there are too many other appealing destinations for FAs to consider to make NY a slam dunk. Plus, the Yankees are in transition – why would CC want to come here? This team is not winning a WS, nor will bit be a serious contender ,anytime soon. What makes it worse is that in a few years we will have some younger positional players coming up and THEY will need time to develop. No, I don’t see CC or Sheets for that matter coming to NY.

    I thought last night that Phil needed a whole year at AAA, but I reread the article I posted last night and I think I was overly negative. I first want to see what he can contribute here in September before I make any judgments. In any case, I put the kibosh on Andy and Moose.

  131. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    It doesn’t help that Arod makes $30 million.

  132. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    “There are numerous teams (Marlins, Red Sox, WhiteSox)”

    Red Sox wouldn’t get near him. White Sox??? Don’t they have Piersynski??? Florida’s been using a new guy who’s not great, but grabbing old expensive guys on the 17th hole of an 18 hole career has never been their thing.

  133. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    Yeah Phelps Phan, Nady has played 80 games at first in his career. Not a huge sample size, but he’s done it, mostly in ’05 for S.D. and ’06 for the Mets.

  134. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    “He’s not a productive veteran anymore. He’s a terrible offensive player with no discipline and and ordinary at best defensive catcher.”

    wait, thought you were talking about Abreu.

    Pudge? i do think someone would take a chance on him over two years. look at the state of catching in the league: its awful.

    i agree, its less likely to see Pudge get a multi-year deal than Abreu, to which i was referring, but yeah, i think someone would sign him to close to what he’s looking for. these guys always find a team somewhere.

  135. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 11:55 am

    I never said take Damon out of this line-up, and Hideki needs at bat’s and can only DH, so yes I think Nady at 1st, and Gardner in CF would have been a much better option.

  136. sunny615 August 20th, 2008 at 11:56 am

    Like all players, CC will follow the money. Hanky and Hal will open the checkbook for CC.

  137. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 11:57 am

    “wait, thought you were talking about Abreu.”

    Nope. Abreu is the one FA I believe would reject arbitration and get the Yankees some picks.

  138. skeptic August 20th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    is there ANY chance we could dump astat’s contract on some unsuspecting team if like we ate say $50M of it or something.

    we will never win with him. never.

    and he’s still got 9 years to go!

  139. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Doubt Nady’s any good at 1B, or else someone would start him there again.

  140. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    I don’t know if Moose wants to come back, but I hope the Yankees want him to and that he accepts. This year the Yankees got way more out of him than they’d hoped. If they can get next year what they expected this year, it would be a plus, in addition to the fact that Moose is a good veteran presence.

    The Yankees need a left handed started pitcher. I think that unless Andy Pettitte decides he’s done, then Pettitte is also back. He has been up and down this year, but he, too, has been victimized by a poor offense and maybe a little bit of that “I’m going to have to pitch a shutout here” mentality that more than likely wears a guy down.

    The Yankees could certainly do worse than to have both Moose and Pettitte back.

    If Wang and Joba perform like we all hope they will, the Yankees have a good 1-2 (or 2-3); Moose and Pettitte make a very good 4-5. So, who’s going to fill that last spot?

  141. Doreen August 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    ** starting pitcher, not “started” pitcher.

  142. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    “Like all players, CC will follow the money. Hanky and Hal will open the checkbook for CC.”

    Wouldn’t etch that in stone. Greg Maddux, while still in his salad days, passed on Yankees money in favor of a more comfortable situation for him. That kind of thing does happen at times.

    I agree the Yanks will be big players, but I wouldn’t lock him in just yet.

  143. Clare August 20th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    pat,

    Every time I’ve seen batting practice, ARod has started his first round in the cage with a few bunts. It’s not something new.

  144. pat August 20th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    Coach

    Does this team lack effort or lack success? Sometime one is confused for the other.

  145. Phelps Phan August 20th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    “we will never win with him. never.”

    Not ALL his fault, granted hes underachieved. But so has Jeter, Giambi, Cano, Sheff(when he was with us), Wang etc.

  146. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    I don’t believe this is the curse of A-rod, he would be fine if there were fundamental player’s in this line-up..

    Betsy:

    On top of waiting for the development of young pitcher’s, by the time they are ready next yr or 2010, when the position player’s in the minor’s are ready say 2011. Then we will need a closer, SS, and catcher……..

  147. Fran August 20th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Andrew – excellent point about Giambi and his place in the line-up. He is not producing as a #5 and is no protection for ARod. He should certainly be moved down in the line-up or to the bench!

    Hey Trisha – some of the mistakes are just coming from the pressure to win and trying to make things happen (like Alex’s trying to get to 2nd last night which I don’t blame him for). I would like to see Girardi get another chance next season but with some changes to his staff (3rd base and maybe hitting coach). As dismal as it seems right now, I can’t throw in the towel until the Yankees are officially eliminated. To quote Yogi “it ain’t over till it’s over”

  148. Andrew August 20th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    A-Rod is going nowhere. They have all those caveats in the deal for the home run record, and I think he has a no-trade clause, doesn’t he? I think that is an immovable deal, and I honestly don’t think moving A-Rod is any way of fixing the team’s problems. You can win with A-Rod if the team is properly constructed around him.

    I think Joe Girardi needs to lobby Cashman to get him some “Joe Girardi players” in the offseason. Hopefully those players resemble, first, resemble major leaguers and not the AAA squad he succeeded with in Miami, and second, are guys that will play fundamental baseball and not add up to 25 huge egos in a cramped clubhouse.

  149. pat August 20th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    “is there ANY chance we could dump astat’s contract on some unsuspecting team if like we ate say $50M of it or something.”

    skeptic

    Everyone has told you no everytime you have asked that question. It’s time for you to find a new question or a new blog to ask it on.

  150. pat August 20th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Thanks Clare.

    It was just odd to hear Cone mention it.

  151. Joe August 20th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Pete, how can this be a losing situation? Great compensation picks, an obvious talent upgrade over your current cathing corps, not having to overwork your obviously out of shape catcher, and all for a relief pitcher that was pitching decent but still had NOBODYS trust in a close game. I understand that part of journalism is picking an extreme angle on a given story to give the writing more of an edge…but seriousy, this is a stretch even for you.

  152. miggs August 20th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    I agree with not resigning Giambi, Pavano, and either Pettitte or Moose. I think you need to bring at least one of them back (right now I’d lean towards Moose). Next year I think you let Damon and/or Matsui leave depending on how ’09 shakes out.

    But I completely disagree with everyone who wants to let Abreu go. I know he can’t play balls near the wall. I know it seems like he has no heart sometimes. I know he’s in his mid-30s. But if the Yankees want to contend next year you have to bring this guy back. He’s been one of the few guys who actually produced this year. He takes pitches, works counts, steals some bases, and happens to be your leading RBI guy. Give him 2-3 years. You can’t let all these guy go because I don’t see them signing Teixiera or any other superstar bat this offseason.

    The offense stinks. He’s one of the few bright spots. I think they have to attempt to sign him.

    Regarding the rotation, like I said I think Pettitte or Moose is back but not both. They will go hard after CC, and if that fails they will go after Sheets or Burnett. After watching that guy last night I can’t say I’d be opposed to him wearing the pinstripes. I know his injury history isn’t great, but which pitcher currently on the team hasn’t missed extensive time? Very few. Either way, they definitely sign one of those 3 guys.

    09 Rotation

    CC/Sheets/Burnett
    Wang
    Joba
    Moose/Pettitte
    Hughes

    Rasner, Giese, Kennedy, Aceves as reserve starters.

  153. skeptic August 20th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

    pat

    ive never asked that before. never. never anything like that. havent asked about trading him or selling his contract before.

    i HAVE complained constantly about him dogging it out of the box and you people have told me again and again that it has never made any difference. you cant tell me that any more.

  154. Timothy Clougher August 20th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    When we won the 2 games against KC, yes it was KC I know, however, they had there best defensive team on the field and some fundamental type guy’s in the line-up Gardner (speed, good Defense, and was hitting 2 days in a row).
    He shouldn’t have been the guy going to the bench…Sorry if Gardner is in CF, those balls would have been caught.
    With the stuff Burnette had he would have tried to bunt, they never put any pressure on Toronto’s defense……..

  155. black yankee August 20th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    I cant believe a few things. Pudge is a PLUS. I find it odd that the pitchers (especially Petitte who has been mediocre) decide who they pitch too. I doubt Girardi liked that when he was with the Cubs. I like Pudge because he brings knowledge and experience. He`ll hit soon. I think I would keep him in light of how Posada has done with the bad shoulder. There are no guarantees Posada comes back ready to throw. Molina has done a good job, but he is not an everyday guy.
    Pudge can help young pitchers and help younger players. He also has one more World Series ring than Arod, Giambi, and crew. He has been a leader everywhere he has gone, and well respected. Its odd that a first ballot HOF like IROD has to defer to two pitchers that are not shoe ins for the HOF.
    If I`m Mussina and Petitte, I `d get with IROD and see how his experience can help. Molina is a nice backup fill in, but to think that Petitte and Mussina give more credability to Molina than IROD is funny. Molina will be considered a journeyman substitute player, while Pudge goes into the HOF first ballot.
    Pudge did a nice job with Detriots and Floridas young pitching staffs, Dont the Yankees need help in that area?

  156. Joe August 20th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    I think we need to start blaming those that deserve it for this seasons failures.

    Arod had a down year as far as RISP, but you can’t fool yourself into thinking he wasn’t productive. Top 7 in hitting, top 2 in OPS, only 9 errors on the year. Wanting to dump arguably the best player in the game out of frustration with the team is a typical overreation.

    How about blaming guys like Cano who has an OPS in the 600s, or Melky for being plain terrible, or the lack of ANY offense from the catchers position, or having your ace go down with an injury? There is plenty to go around, in my opinion.

  157. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    “Pudge did a nice job with Detriots and Floridas young pitching staffs,”

    The Detroit pitching staff posted an ERA higher than the league average in 3 of the 4 seasons Pudge was there.

  158. deputy dawg August 20th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    Russ in Tampa
    I live in south tampa. Just wondering, do you go to mute when the Yankees are in town and we have to listen to Rays “announcers”.

  159. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    “The Detroit pitching staff posted an ERA higher than the league average in 3 of the 4 seasons Pudge was there.”

    and that wouldnt have anything to do with the Detroit pitchers actually being awful, would it?

  160. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    “and that wouldnt have anything to do with the Detroit pitchers actually being awful, would it?”

    Sure it would. But it also defies the logic offered earlier which was that Pudge did a great job with Detroit’s young pitchers.

  161. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    “But it also defies the logic offered earlier which was that Pudge did a great job with Detroit’s young pitchers.”

    well, yeah.

    but, if by good job they limit it to Pudge’s work with Justin Verlander, and then limit that to making sure he doesnt screw up Verlander’s natural ability to make hitters look stupid, then they could technically be correct.

  162. Fredo Corleone August 20th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    “and then limit that to making sure he doesnt screw up Verlander’s natural ability to make hitters look stupid, then they could technically be correct.”

    Yet the natural ability has taken something of a hiatus this season.

  163. S.o.S.27 August 20th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    miggs,
    I agree with your post axcept imo we need to trade one of Matsui or Damon in the offseason. It seems like we will need a slot open for Posada and the other veterans. So Matsui might be a better option to trade.

    If we are looking at high ceiling/high risk pitchers. Maybe Harden might be another option.

    I mentioned these two names before. Thoughts on getting Dejesus to play center and Laroche for first?

  164. melky August 20th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

    Maybe in a week or so if the cause is grim, the yanks should look to trade Abreau/Giambi and see if someone wants them for the stretch run

  165. TurnTwo August 20th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    “Yet the natural ability has taken something of a hiatus this season.”

    you cant question the stuff Verlander has.

    maybe he isnt executing his game plan, maybe his mechanics are screwed up a little bit, or maybe he’s hurt.

    but he had a stretch between May and the end of July where he was his untouchable self.

    he’ll be fine.

  166. S.o.S.27 August 20th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    Im all for the Pudge trade. But i think Molina is so underrated as a catcher. He calls a great game and keeps runners running station to station. If he had a stick with that defense. We would be talking about him as one of the elite catchers. Unfortunately he doesnt. Look we won championships with a weak hitting Girardi behind the plate. The question is can he hold up? IMO i think he is better than pudge behind the plate.

  167. CaptainsCorner August 20th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    I wouldn’t say that getting Pudge “hurt” the Yanks. He just didn’t help make them much better. I think Molina at this stage of Pudge’s career is much better all around, of course that wouldn’t be the case if Pudge was actually hitting. Molina is better defensively and obviously he knows the pitchers but getting another catcher was a must. Molina was going to be run into the ground by Girardi. He could not catch every single day!!! Yanks can deal with Pudge for another month and then he will be gone. The deal was worth a gamble and Farns. is a nut case.

  168. Terry #1 August 20th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    Phelps Phan said

    Doubt Nady’s any good at 1B, or else someone would start him there again.

    Not quite.

    First base is a soft landing spot for a good hitter. Placing a defensively below-average player there won’t make too much of a difference.

    Left field, especially in Yankee Stadium, is where defense makes a big impact on the progression of the game. Placing a sub-par player in THAT position will hurt you.

    Damon’s a good guy and I like him. But I had a sick feeling in my stomach every time a runner was on second or first and the other team hit a single or a double in his direction. Making the other team get an “extra” base hit by holding the runner at third (even if no OF assist is recorded) to score a run makes a huge difference in the game.

    Nady has good range, good instincts/reflexes, and an accurate arm. You don’t waste his defense at 1B.

  169. Terry #1 August 20th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    Bottom line, it isn’t that Nady isn’t any good at 1B.

    It’s that Nady is TOO good to be wasted at 1B.

  170. EN August 20th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    While the LA Dodgers just picked up Greg Maddux Cashman
    announces that Carl(MIA)Pavano will pitch on Saturday!
    Will someone Please fire Cashman already!
    Please don’t bring up the 1996-2000 run, this is 2008!
    Most of us would be canned if we had 2 bad years in a row!
    Is he related to the Steinbrenners or are they Just Dumb?Enough Already!

  171. Coach August 20th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Pat… Effort breeds success. One ALWAYS goes with the other. When you don’t give effort, succeeding becomes nearly impossible.

    Try some time when you are tossing knives in the air. Give a little effort trying to catch them correctly and see how many times you get cut!!!

  172. BG August 20th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    “Pete writes this after Pudge catches Rasner in one of his best starts of the season.

    Sometimes I think Pete writes “analysis” on this site just to get a rise out of people. Like the 8 for 35 comment. I’m sure he knows that 35 ABs is a meaningless sample size. If Pudge had 4 more bloop singles, he would be about a .333 hitter as a Yankee.

    Acquiring Pudge also prevents the Yankees from having to overwork Molina. Plus there’s a good chance that Pudge’s Type A status will net the Yankees two draft picks next season.”

    This is the right answer. Changing teams as a catcher mid-season is extremely difficult. Anyone assuming that a smooth transition was automatic was deluding themselves. Pudge by all accounts is a hard worker with the right attitude. Even if the production hasn’t been there, he’s at least more of a threat at the back of the lineup then they’ve had and 35 AB’s is an extremely small sample size. It was a reasonable gamble on Cashman’s part given that almost everyone would say that Molina couldn’t handle the workload of catching every day.

    The only question i have about the above post is that I thought that you have to offer arbitration in order to receive draft picks as compensation for losing a type “A” free agent. I doubt that the yankees offer Pudge arbitration unless he’s agreed to not accept it.

  173. Jersey Jim August 20th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    The only way Pudge Rodriquez will be back is if Jorge’s shoulder surgery isn’t a complete success.
    If all goes according to plan, Jorge would catch 90-100 games with Molina handling the rest.
    Also in the picture is Frankie Cervelli who will be closely monitored as a backup next year until Jesus Montero bursts on the scene.

  174. asierra August 20th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    i dk about the tigers, but the yankees would be winning if they just get hits in key situations like arod and giambi last night striking out so many freaking times and arod like a dummy trying to run to second yesterday THEY NEED TO THINK

  175. Jeremy August 20th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    BG,

    Thanks. I think the Yankees will offer Pudge arbitration because they will expect him to decline. A catcher at Pudge’s age has to get a multi-year deal, and some team will give it to him. He can’t gamble on a one-year contract.

  176. autograph seeker August 20th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    you are kidding, right? you are not serious by suggesting it hurt us, right? if so, then WOW…

  177. BB August 21st, 2008 at 2:40 am

    “The trade that hurt both teams”

    Agree without doubt.The deal seem not through a careful consideration.

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