Pitching matchups for the Orioles series
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 22, 2008 
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Tonight: RHP Mike Mussina (16-7, 3.35) vs. RHP Radhames Liz (4-3, 7.47), 7:05, Channel 9
Saturday: RHP Carl Pavano (season debut) vs. RHP Jeremy Guthrie (10-6, 3.15), 7:05, YES
Sunday: RHP Darrell Rasner (5-9, 4.93) vs. RHP Daniel Cabrera (8-8, 4.98), 7:05, YES, WCBS
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Greetings from Gate 160 in Toronto. Early flight to Newark today then a drive down to Baltimore for the latest stop on the march to fourth place. Those Yankee fans who purchased tickets and hotel rooms in the Charm City for this weekend expecting some pennant-race games can’t be too happy.
Is anybody else surprised that the Yankees are using Carl Pavano tomorrow? Wouldn’t it benefit the long-term interests of the organization to give major-league innings to Phil Hughes instead of a player they can’t wait to get rid of?
The worst part? After four years without a pulse, Pavano gets to audition for a job next season at the expense of the Yankees. Why not just release him at this point and move on?
————
A little good news. I’ve arranged a reader Q&A with a certain Hall of Famer who should give us some interesting answers. More on that to come.
Check back later for the lineup.
I think that they are making a logical decision to go with Pavano. They let Hughes continue to work out his issues at AAA (he’s still very young and I don’t see why they need to rush him back to the majors) and they get some starts out of a guy that they are paying. It’s petty to think that they are somehow doing something wrong by allowing him to showcase his abilities as a soon-to-be free agent. Who cares – he leaves NY and then becomes someone else’s problem. It’s not like MLB GMs haven’t noticed that he has spent most of his tenure in NY on the DL…
Sweep the Orioles !
I hope this post was sarcastic.
“Is anybody else surprised that the Yankees are using Carl Pavano tomorrow? Wouldn’t it benefit the long-term interests of the organization to give major-league innings to Phil Hughes instead of a player they can’t wait to get rid of?”
No, I’m not surprised. Hughes should have at least 2 more starts in AAA. His last outing he didn’t dominate, part due to having a dead arm. Did you forget that? Why would you bring him up when he had a dead arm last start? So he can get shelled and the NY media can eat him up? Oh wait, you are the NY media.. that’s funny.
The harshness of your reaction to Pavano is rather distastful and unsettling. Am I missing something, or didn’t he have some legitimate injuries that kept him from pitching? Possibly, you have some inside medical knowledge or personal insight concerning these injuries that would have allowed him to pitch in spite of their severity? Pitching through injuries is a matter of how bad the injuries are, wouldn’t you say? And only he really knows how he feels. I ask you, whatever happened to the gentlemanly practice of giving people the benefit of the doubt in such matters or is this a New York thing the rest of us wouldn’t understand?
C. Foiles
Is performance anxiety a legitimate injury?
Maybe, we better ask Roger Clemens about that one.
I know Girardi, the Martinet, has banned candy in the clubhouse.
I only hope he hasn’t forbidden Viagra as well and they keep it well stocked for tonight.
Without it, Pavano is likely to complain of an eyelash in his eye or an in-grown toenail and withdraw from his start.
Booooooooooooo Reggie.
Boston 73 54 .575 –
Minnesota 73 54 .575 –
NY Yankees 67 60 .528 6
Toronto 66 61 .520 7
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We are either going to look back on today’s standings and say….WOW….what a great comeback the Yankees’ pulled off…or….WOW…We dug ourselves a very deep hole, it is no wonder we finished in 4th place this year ( disgusting thought, huh ? )
.
Meanwhile, who has the best recored in baseball ?
.
Chicago Cubs 78 49 .614 ( triple WOW ! )
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My final hope is that we sweep the Orioles this weekend,,,I wonder if it will be the 4th or 5th inning tonight, that I am shown to lose that hope, huh ? ;-(
So it has taken us just 16 games to lose 10 games just now…..if we can only spread another 10 losses over the next 35 games….we have a chance….( So tell me, how does a team that goes 6-10, then turn it around to go 25-10 with the rotation the Yankees have and the SO inconsistent bats as well ? )….. I would LOVE to see them do it….Anyone would be a fool to expect it, though…
I don’t particularly like what Pavano has done to the Yankees over these four years. But, as a beat reporter, you should have SOME objectivity here. And your disdain (bordering on hatred, at times) for Pavano is embarrassing.
Let the man pitch if he’s ready. And don’t forget to put at least some of the blame for this fiasco on Cashman. He signed Pavano, knowing full well that he was an injury-plagued pitcher with only one really good season under his belt. This was a signing that was done purely to block the Sox. It was a bad move from Day One.
Anything less than a sweep this weekend might put the last nail in the coffin for this team.
It’s a very, very, real possibility that we end up in last place. The combination of every single game remaining being between either AL East and/or playoff contention teams and the way that we have been playing lately, us falling behind the O’s to last place can certainly happen.
While it would be a terrible way to close out Yankee Stadium, it just might be the wake-up call the Front Office needs to realize what a waste their $200+ million was, and that they need to do a serious rebuilding this off-season.
I can understand the idea of giving Hughes a little more time in the minors…
That said, I COMPLETELY agree about Pavano. I might have gone with Zambrano.
The bottom line for me: Cashman can talk all he wants to about how this isn’t Pavano’s fault and all the other stuff he had to say supporting a guy who has abandoned the Yankees…
Even if he’s RIGHT, it doesn’t matter… There are several VERY important players in that clubhouse who cannot stand the guy, want nothing to do with him, and have said so PUBLICLY!
There is simply NO good reason to reintroduce Carl Pavano to that clubhouse NOW… Unless, of course, Cashman is trying to find ways to punish the team for having a crap season.
anybody seen alex rodriguez? did he miss the plane to toronto?
Season is over. Sigh.
Heading down to B-More in an hour I am one of those who bought tickets about 5 weeks ago thinking this series would mean something to us
Pavano is the right choice. Hughes is not going to get the Yankees into the playoffs unless he can pitch lights out 5 days a week and hit with risp, and that is impossible. Give the start to Pavano and let Hughes get ready to be a major leaguer. If Hughes is rushed back and gets hurt again then the Yankees are in worse position then if Pavano pitches and stinks up the joint.
The Yankees have bigger problems than Hughes or Pavano.
since the yankees are out of it, with no chance for the PS, arod will probably go crazy in september with like 15 homers and 45 rbi.
im not suffering from this anti-pavano ferver that has swept over yankeeland. give hughes a couple more starts in the minors and then bring him up. in the meantime, we’re paying this guy around a million and a half dollars for september, we might as well throw him whenever it’s convenient. if hughes throws 2 good games down there, then you brring him up, even if pavano has pitched 2 no-hitters while holding the spot.
The usual cast of Kevin Millar, Aubrey Huff, Melvin Mora, and Nick Markakis will do bat damage and the Oriole pitching will control the sluggish Yankee bats.
Just the reality of it.
“…Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night…
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night… ”
And though things look dark in day and black as night…
Oh my Yankees, “Rage, rage against the dying of the light.â€
Actually DVAB, it’s a Dylan Thomas poem.
Pete – I couldn’t agree with you more, re: Pavano and Hughes
If Phil has a physical problem, dead arm or whatever, then he shouldn’t be pitching anywhere, period. Otherwise, what bad thing is going to happen if he works on his pitches in Scranton or Baltimore and the Bronx? Let him see how his stuff translates against major league hitters, not minor league ones. He’ll be throwing to a better catcher, whether it’s Molina or Pudge, who knows what it takes to get major leaguers out; and Dave Eiland and Girardi will be seeing him firsthand.
Waht’s going to be at stake, 3rd place?
When Pavano accidentally slips and bruises his other buttock, he’ll go back on the DL and the Yankees can continue to collect on the insurance. Cashman knows what he’s doing.
Season debut? Wouldn’t it be Yankee debut? I don’t remember anyone named Carl Pavano pitching for the Yankees.
Pete, I don’t agree with you about it being better that Phil pitch on Saturday. He’s coming off of a bad outing in AAA and he’s simply not ready for big league hitters. No one (even the Yankees) cares if Carl gets knocked around because he’s not going to be with them much longer, but Phil doesn’t need another shot to his confidence. He’s already been rushed once in his ML career – the Yankees can not continue to do that without it having lasting effects on Phil.
“I don’t particularly like what Pavano has done to the Yankees over these four years. But, as a beat reporter, you should have SOME objectivity here.”
You’re right. What exactly has Pavano done that has deemed him worthy for this start?
Nothing.
Where was his last start in?
AA
Why not give someone who’s at least deserved it (Chase Wright) another shot. Pavano is just a name, a possibility a couple years ago. He’s become our version of Kerry wood and Mark Prior all rolled up into one, complete with just about every injury you can name.
He doesn’t deserve that start and that is being objective.
how many yankees do you think know who dylan thomas was? just moose and girardi?
Watching the game last evening particularly the poor play of Damon and Abreu leads me to believe whatever pitcher they send out there this team defensively is not up to the task.
For that reason alone and all the gloom and doom that follows each Hughes performance it might not be a bad idea to wait until Hughes is able to pitch when he is feeeling physically capable, although I have a distinct feeling this bunch will sabotage his efforts with their shoddy defense.
Damon is horrible in CF, he and Abreu a scary combo.
c Foiles
No he hasn’t had all legit injuries. He is afraid to pitch in NY. He is what you would call soft. And a thief!!
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....979.column
And who are you his mother or father?
it isnt about pavano, its about hughes. cash and joe and nardi and co. think hughes is better served by pitching in aaa this time, thats all. once they made that decision, they went to pavano b/c he’s on the 40-man and gives them the best chance to win out of those available. whenever they deem phil ready to pitch in the majors, they’ll sit pavano or whoever’s hurt. they are using pavano for thier own convenience while they tend to phil hughes’ development
Pavano is the right choice.
on WFAN last night Girardi said they feel Hughes needs to continue to get a little work, which in Girardi speak means “he’s not ready.” if they dont feel Hughes is ready, why send him out for slaughter? hasnt his confidence taken enough of a hit this year already?
im actually on the other side of the fence on this… if the yankees were still in this, i could see them pushing Hughes, because his talent level gives the yankees a better shot game to game of giving a dominating performance than a Rasner.
but if the yankees arent in this anymore, and they arent, for Hughes specifically, i’d let him get another start or two in Scranton, and then call him up for maybe one or two starts to end the season. in the offseason, id ticket him for AAA to start 2009, too.
and then, as it was discussed here yesterday, so what if Pavano is auditioning for other teams by pitching down the stretch here? technically, he’s still under contract with an option for the Yankees next season, so isnt he auditioning for Cashman, too?
the last 4 seasons of failure aside, dont you think Cashman might want to get a look at the guy before rehabbing him back to full strength, working him out, and then just giving him away?
if Pavano pitches well down the stretch, and of course its a big if, and shows he’s got life back in his pitches, doesnt he then become an asset for the Yankees, who can either pick up the reasonable option and move him, like Sheffield, or bring him back next season and let him pitch one full season knowing he’ll be motivated for redemeption and one more big payday for his career?
sometimes you need to take a step back and look objectively at the situation, and not let your emotions get the best of you.
now there is certainly time for all this to play out… but with this season a wash, you need to start really evaluating the potential talent lined up for this team for 2009 now to have a better idea and make good decisions going forward with the offseason.
I can’t believe people are defending Pavano! What has he done for the Yankees? NOTHING!! He has done nothing to warrant defending!! If he pitches us to the playoffs, than I tip my cap to him. Otherwise he is a useless piece of you know what!
And injury history? He was healthy his time with the Marlins.
Kill-Schill(ing)
.
Rodney Dangerfield spouts this poem in his hit movie Back to School. When asked what the poem means to him, he responds: “It means… I don’t take sh*t from no oneâ€.
.
so THERE !
i really think they need to move damon and cano and let abreu and giambi go. you can make the case for keeping any one of them, but in the end, this team needs a radical shake-up.
time to clean house.
Starting Pavano is the only way we might get any value out of him. If he pitches lights out tomorrow (very doubtful) then we should put him on waivers to see if any team fighting for a playoff spot might want to take him on for the rest of the year. If he just pitches OK and then finishes the year healthy with 4 or 5 solid wins behind him then we have the option to pick up his option and trade him in the off season and get some value in return. But, if he gets hurt again then the insurance covers his salary. And finally, if he just stinks it up… we release him and then we get to watch him try to get a contract for more than 1 year and $1M.
” Hold it. That’s it.
I can’t take it no more.
I feel like I just gave birth
to an accountant.
Wait a minute, Thornton.
Thornton, do you remember
when we discussed…
the Dylan Thomas poem…
“Do Not Go Gentle
Into That Good Night”?
I don’t know.
No. Maybe.
Thornton, think.
What’s going on here?
Philip, relax. It’s my turn.
Do you remember it?
“Do not go gentle into…
“into that good night.
“Old age should burn
and rage…
“at close of day.
“Rage, rage against
the dying of the light.
“Wild men who caught…
“and sang the sun in flight
and learned too late…
“they grieved it on its way.
“Do not go gentle
into that good night.
“Grave men near death…
“who see with blinding sight.
“Blind eyes could blaze
like meteors and be gay.
“Rage, rage against
the dying of the light.
“And you, my father,
there on the sad height.
“Curse, bless me now…
“with your fierce tears,
I pray.
“Do not go gentle
into that good night.
“Rage! Rage against
the dying of the light!”
Thornton, what does that poem
mean to you?
It means…
I don’t take sh*t from no one.
I’m gonna pass this test.
I’m stayin’ in school!
Who’s next?
Cano can go only in the right deal. I wouldn’t dump him for the sake of trying to shake things up. There has to be value in his return. Damon could likely get a couple of prospects back, but not great ones. He’s in decline and he’s oft injured (even tho he tries to play through them). If Cash can get a decent package in return for either of those two guys, Cash has earned his paycheck.
People are forgetting that the Yanks hold an 09 option on Pavano for 13M. I know the sum is high, but if he pitches well enough here the Yanks can eat a few bucks (The amount of the buyout) and deal him for prospects, or bench players. I think that’s the logic. And as far as Hughes and Joba are concerned. I would shut Joba down for this season, and Hughes can pitch in the minors the rest of the way. To build up their innings they can play some winter ball. They’re rookie pitchers who need to refine their games, not superstars who can refuse assignments.
It doesn’t matter who starts tomorrow. They are just playing out the string at this point.
If you want to develop Hughes, you leave him in AAA the rest of the way and have him work on his secondary pitches. That should be the priority, not giving him major league innings. He’s not ready for it.
As we saw earlier in the year, the majors is not the place to work on your game. That’s what the minors are for.
Pete
I totally agree with your comment about releasing Pavano.
What good can come of pitching him at this point?
This team isn’t going to the playoffs anyway, no matter who is pitching.
“Season debut? Wouldn’t it be Yankee debut? I don’t remember anyone named Carl Pavano pitching for the Yankees.”
So true!
By that same thought, what bad can come out of pitching Pavano? The Yankees are pretty much out of it. Why not pitch Pavano and let Hughes stay in the minors? Why not have Pavano contribute innings?
They won’t dump Cano.
Its going to be interesting to watch how they handle Cano in the off-season. Yes, he’s their only under 30 position player. However, if you play like crap for most of the year, being under 30 really doesn’t mean much.
He still has value in the marketplace. The issue is, does he have enough value to warrant trading him?
Damon can get you a couple of prospects back in a deal. Should they trade him? They can only bring back one of Damon, Abreu and Matsui, IMO. With Posada’s health in question, and the possibility he may have to DH for next year if his shoulder isn’t healthy, they have to break up the over 35 logjam on this team.
Its why I believe you will see a massive change in the off-season. The only position players who are guaranteed to be back next year are Arod, Jeter, Posada and Nady, and a couple of them are only back because of contracts.
Change is good and its time it takes place. The BIG question is, WHO will be in charge of making these changes?
After what we have seen this year at every level of the organization, it can’t be Brian Cashman alone making these decisions. Too many mistakes have been made under his watch to just keep the same power structure. If the Steinbrenners want him to return, it MUST be in conjunction with more competent hands on the baseball side of the business.
If that is unacceptable to Cashman, then he has to go and you completely rebuild the baseball ops from the ground up.
Hopefully, everybody’s ego is checked after a season like this one. There are no one man bands in baseball.
As good as Theo is, look at the baseball people around him. They aren’t good, they are great at what they do. Its why the Red Sox hit home runs in the draft every year. Its why they don’t hang onto players well past their primes. Its why they don’t tie themselves up with an overabundance of long term contracts.
Its not just “luck” they make good decisions. They have good decisionmakers in their organization who are really talented baseball people.
The Yankees do not have that kind of talent or depth in their baseball operations. If they did, you wouldn’t have the cluster$%$# of this year’s draft or, truth be told, this year’s team.
Its time to completely remake the baseball side of this organization. If that includes Cashman with more talented people around him, fine by me.
If it means doing business the same, failed way they are currently going about it? Expect the same failed results next season.
Bottom line, the Yanks need a sweep here, then need to take two of three from Boston.
A Q&A with Yogi would make this entire season worth it.
I think the reason is that they don’t want to rush Hughes. After his last start in AAA, it doesn’t look like he’s quite ready. Personally, I’d rather put him in the pen and get him acclimated to the majors that way. Then put him in the rotation later.
Why not Pavano?
IMO this team needs to move forward playing people who might actually be in the teams plans going forward and/or showcasing others who aren’t as trade bait for the off season.
Obviously, Pavano doesn’t fall into either one of those categories.
No wayyou pick up the option. I don’t trust that a team would want him unless you ate most of the salary. The guy hasn’t proven he can stay healthy. Cashman will probably drive him to the aiprot when the time comes that the bum is gone.
if their minor league scouts think Pavano’s more ready than Hughes for tomorrow, it’s a no-brainer. it’s such a no-brainer that no-brainer isn’t a good enough word for it.
the idea that they should just look ahead to next year just flat-out ignores baseball history. It’s like Tug McGraw saying “You gotta develop for 1974″ instead of “You gotta believe”.
Baseball people will tell you that you don’t evaluate players in spring training and in September because you get false reads on them.
So, the concept of “playing the guys you want to evaluate for next year” really doesn’t hold water.
Nobody the Yankees will play in the next 5 weeks is going to affect their decisionmaking for next year. Nor should it.
A 10-25 game sample gives you guys like Shane Spencer, not future all stars.
At this point, they need a body to make a start tomorrow and Carl Pavano is that body. Its not more complicated than that.
Hopefully, everyone’s gotten a good night’s sleep. (I mean us, not the Yankees -them, they probably aren’t sleeping all that well.)
It makes more sense for Pavano to pitch than anyone else they could have gone to. No reason to rush Hughes (again), especially after his last outing which was not a good one. The last thing he or the Yankees need is for him to come up and not have a good start. Did someone actually post that they’d prefer Zambrano to Pavano? Frankly, I suppose there’s not that much difference, and neither one is ideal, but why not Pavano? I’ll be there Saturday night and I certainly hope he at least gives the Yankees a chance to win the game. I don’t (never do) predict outcomes, but all 3 games are winnable for the Yankees, if they show up offensively. Hopefully they make a contest out of the games, at the very least, unlike last night (ugh).
Let’s go Moose. How bittersweet would it be for Mussina to finally get his 20 win season, but it makes no difference to the team with the possible exception of keeping them out of the basement.
I just also want to say that while what my eyes see tell me that this season is more or less done as far as the post-season in concerned, for whatever reason, I can’t give up hope – not as long as there is a shred of possibility left. If that makes me crazy, well, then, call me crazy.
SJ44 -
I hope the players don’t just play out the string, even if their chances are slim to none.
I think Pavano would have more good will if he pitched with some passion and balls the 3 days of this contract he was healthy.
i wrote a pretty long comment that apparently got swallowed in the filter for some reason i cant figure out, and i dont have the energy to type it all over again.
but the jist of it went along with SJ:
“If you want to develop Hughes, you leave him in AAA the rest of the way and have him work on his secondary pitches. That should be the priority, not giving him major league innings. He’s not ready for it.”
and id add that i think Hughes really should be ticketed for Scranton to start next year, too.
no need to rush Hughes at this point if there is no pennant race for him to contribute to, and if he’s not ready.
and for Pavano, i understand the griping and the waste of the last 4 years, but technically he’s still under contract for next season with his team option, as it was seemingly discussed yesterday.
it might be in the Yankees’ best interest to throw him out there and hope that he’s motivated to pitch for his next contract. if he pitches well, and piques interest, Pavano becomes a tradeable asset, and Cashman can choose to pick up his 1 year option and move him if there are a couple teams willing to take a chance with minimal commitment.
and why would you send him for surgery, and rehab him all the way back to full health, to cut him now? what business sense does that make?
so Pavano isnt just pitching to audition for other teams; he’s also auditioning for Cashman, too.
Insurance purposes.
Doreen,
Unfortunately, most of the players on this team have packed it in. I watch effort and body language and frankly, its not there with most of this group.
Particularly, the guys that know they won’t be back next year.
I saw the same thing with the ’06 Red Sox. Manny packed it in after the Yankees swept that 5 game series and most of the rest of the team did the same.
We all like to have the illusion that players “care” until the last out of the season. The reality? Most of them don’t.
Sure, some, like Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, etc, care. Most guys? They see the writing on the wall and they are just counting down the days.
They will deny it publicly to no end. However, as the old saying goes, the tape doesn’t lie.
TurnTwo,
I’ll go one further on Hughes. He should spend most, if not all, of next year in AAA.
He’s just not ready. Please folks, don’t waste my time or anybody else’s on here putting out AAA stats. They are meaningless. They don’t translate to major league success.
He has no out pitch. His secondary pitches aren’t good.
Does he have potential to be very good? Yes. Is he that now? No.
He needs a minimum of another 150 innings of AAA baseball and that has to include perfecting his secondary pitches AND fastball command. He has neither right now.
As far as what the Yankees think? Frankly, I wouldn’t look to the opinions of the Yankees re: developing pitchers.
Every one of their top pitching prospects this year, with the exception of McAllister and Melancon, have been on the DL this year.
Hughes and Kennedy, the season opening #4 and #5 starters, haven’t won a game at the major league level this year. None, nada, zippo.
So, if you want to listen and/or learn about how to develop pitching, look to teams that actually do it well. Unfortunately for all of us, the Yankees aren’t in that grouping.
Well they better care tonight. If you truely believe the season is over. At least play hard in Mussina’s starts. The man has a chance to win 20 games for the first time in his career. at least go out and give it your all so he can acomplish that.
SJ44,
I think you’re forgetting the pitching woes this staff was in last year and this year. It’s not like the Yankees had a lot of alternatives last year when the staff was decimated by injuries and brought in Hughes (thanks to the wonder of our then Director of Performance Enhancement – no… not Clemens)… and he performed well at the end of the season to earn a return to the staff this year. So it’s not like he hasn’t been able to perform, but I do agree that it was a tad early in my eyes to think he’d be rock solid from that point on.
Grim, yes. How to watch the rest of it? Keeping my eyes open for the things we still have to cheer for:
MOOSE!!! — Get twenty!!
The three guys whose average with RISP is higher than their overall BA for the season: Jeter, Damon, Nady — Never say die, guys!!
Molina, who rose to the occasion and continues adding luster to the great Molina Catching Dynasty.
Rasner and Ponson, who overall have pitched completely above expectations.
FO for learning something from throwing Hughes out there too early and now seem to realize that (like SJ44 says) the place for him to develop those secondary pitches is in the minors — because he’s going to need them next year!
What else? Anybody?
we will win today at least, hopefully these players will have some heart and try to get moose 20 wins, i mean if anything at least we can one thing from this season!
for me, the only way the glimmer of hope returns is if the Yanks can sweep this weekend.
Ponson was due for an ass-kickin’. I’m glad he got it out of the way before the important games start.
Personnally, I think we have the Blosux right where we want them. Take 4 out of 6 from them, pick up 1 game every 7 for the the other 28, and beat them in a 1 game playoff, preferably in Fenway. What would be sweeter?
Anyone know when playoff tickets go on sale?
sunny615 …I am TOTALLY with you on that….I surely hope that you and I have lost that glimmer in the first few innings of tonight’s game…but won’t be surprised if that is the case…..I won’t TOTALLY give up, until we are FOR SURE out of it…but they have let us down time after time after time after time….etc….we would be silly not to expect anything less the last 35 games of the season.
have = haven’t ( oops )
Seems like a lot of folks here seem to think that Hughes suddenly has no secondary or out pitches. Please help me understand that statement… he seemed to have fine stuff before the hamstring injury in Texas and then again at the end of last year once he regained his strength. This year he pitched poorly but clearly was pitching hurt. So now suddenly he has lost his secondary pitches even though with the exception of his last AAA start (when he was reported not feeling well), has been pitching well. Keeping him in AAA to let him regain strength and confidence makes sense… but to develop a secondary or out pitch? Come on.
I think we will see him in September.
Sunny,
The pitching has actually been better this year. That’s to Girardi’s and Eiland’s credit because the staff has been decimated by injury. They have rebuilt Moose, developed a bullpen, and gotten more out of guys like Ponson, Giese and Rasner that could have been expected.
They didn’t get anything out of Hughes and Kennedy because neither guy is ready yet to be in a major league rotation. Injuries aside, both guys simply don’t possess enough weapons to get outs on a consistent basis in the majors right now.
The offense has been pathetic. Too many “me” guys only concerned about their own stats and not doing the little things to help the team win.
They don’t make productive outs. They don’t advance runners and they don’t hit with RISP.
Too many “former” all stars and not enough grinders.
Injuries? A poor excuse to validate poor play.
Everybody has been banged up this year. Tampa, Toronto, Minnesota, Boston, all have had their share of major injuries. Some of those teams are still hit hard by injuries. Yet, they find ways to win games.
The Yankees were the same way 3 of the last 4 years under Torre. The only differences are, there is another team (Tampa) in the division to keep them out of playoff contention from, and they beat up bad pitching to win games. This year, guys are older, without greenies, and can’t hit on a consistent basis.
What we are seeing this year has been brewing for 3 years and we have all dismissed the symtoms. We can’t do that anymore because its in full view on a nightly basis.
Its an old, over the hill team. I think they (the Yankees) recognize that but, are powerless at this point to do anything about it.
At this point, the heavy lifting to remake the team is left for the off-season. Right now? Try to get Moose 20 wins and finish out the year.
DVAB – No, there’ll alwasy be that feint spark there, but the reality is, these Yankees haven’t shown up all year long. If they couldn’t get it together after 127 games, I can’t see how they can do it for the last 35.
Like you said, if after a couple of innings go by and I see no life, I won’t be surprised. It’s really sad that this is what I expect now instead of being shocked by it.
I don’t get it.
Pavano gets hurt, several times, can’t pitch, everybody hates him.
Hughes gets hurt, several times, can’t pitch, everybody loves him.
Whats the difference? The money? Who cares about the money? I don’t write the checks, do you? Neither one of them have done a damn thing for the team, thus, they have nothing to do with their probable 4th place finish. Pavano did have at least one good year (repeat, YEAR) at the MLB level. Whats Hughes done besides look like a career AAA/DL performer?
Pavano’s one good year wasn’t with the Yankees, Hughes is 22 and it’s completely idiotic to take a “what have you ever done?” approach to the career of someone who is a 22 year old pitcher. He got rushed to the majors but he still succeeded when he was healthy, and although the Pope wants to say that he isn’t ML ready and belongs in AAA for now and all next year, I don’t actually see that happening–if he’s healthy and pitching well in AAA, and the team continues to run Pavano/Ponson/Rasner out there as alternatives in meaningless games, I think Hughes will get some more big-league innings, meaningless or not how is that bad for his development? Wouldn’t it make more sense for him to learn on the job in a relatively meaningless situation, than to pitch in the International League playoffs?
SJ44, while I agree with you, my point was that Hughes was brought up last year because of the injuries that they suffered thanks to Mr. Performance Enhancement. So desperate were the Yankees, that they even brought back Clemens and paid him a ridiuclous – prorated $28 mil.
This years staff (with the exception of Hughes and IPK) have indeed been exceptional (with the thanks of a healthy Moose and exceptional outings (occassionally) by Raz and Ponson). But the point was Hughes is young and yes, did not spend enough time in the minors. Once major leaguers saw enough of them, they regressed (like Buccholz). The point was abour pitching development and because the Yankees rotation was pitiful last year, Hughes development (as well as IPK and Joba) had been stunted. But it wasn’t because the Yanks didn’t care, it was because they didn’t have a choice.
RE: Hughes, really, what are you talking about?
A May of 2007 start?
Have you seen him pitch since that time?
He went from throwing 91-94 to 89-91.
He has been hurt so much, he’s can’t compile innings. An important part of a pitchers development.
His 12 to 6 curveball? Gone and he’s trying to get it back.
His changeup? Non-existent. Again, back in the minors, trying to get it back.
He’s just starting to develop a cutter. A pitch that could be a good pitch for him. Why not let him do it under the less pressurized atmosphere of the minors? Seems logical to me.
His AAA stats? You really want to go there? He was throwing mostly fastballs to AAAA hitters. In his last start, he actually went out there and pitched as he would have to in the majors. Mixing in off speed stuff, his curveball and his, still in the development stage, cutter.
How did that turn out? He got shelled.
He’s not ready to pitch at the major league level. Can he pitch a start or two in September? Sure. But, what will that accomplish?
You want to give him a rotation spot again next year based on pitching a couple of starts in September or what he did in May of 2007?
Sorry, that’s not the way to develop a pitcher. Its why it failed the first time.
He’s finally beginning to get his legs under himself for the first time since he blew out his hamstring. Why call him up to the majors before he is ready?
Why not have him perfect his secondary pitches at the AAA level?
I hate to tell you but, the more you rush this kid to the majors, the more the chances increase you will ruin him.
If the Yankees are really interested in developing him, he won’t see the majors the rest of this season.
They’re not going with Hughes at this point because, for one thing, he’s not ready yet. It doesn’t look good but this team is technically still in the race. They are 6 back today and have 6 games left with Boston. It’s not likely, but it could be done. It alarms me that there are not other viable choices down on the farm over Pavano, but if 2003 World Series Pavano somehow shows up for the next month, I’d say let’s get Joba back in the fold and do this thing!
And Pete, the Yanks aren’t going to release Pavano because of the insurance plan they have on him. They lose that money if they dump him, which is why he stayed on the 40-man this year.
Please tell me this surprise interview isn’t another Goose Gossage hates fist pumps interview…
Sunny,
I see what you are saying. My point is, to bring up Hughes before he is able to perfect his other pitches, just to see him pitch in the majors again, isn’t “developing him”. Its ruining him.
Andrew,
Its better he stays in AAA working on his stuff than, “learning on the job” at the major league level.
That didn’t work the first time. What’s going to change now?
He would be pitching on a veteran team out of playoff contention. Yeah, that’s really going to help him.
Why not pitch in a less pressurized atmosphere and work on your game? Doesn’t that make sense?
If he pitched lights out in NY September, it really doesn’t tell you anything about him going into next year.
If you call him up and he bombs? You have to spend the entire off-season building him up again.
I don’t see the point of taking that risk.
Some of you act as if he was a dominating pitcher at the major league level prior to his injury. He wasn’t.
Even before he got hurt, he was getting shelled.
The, “throw him in the middle of the pool and see if he can swim” approach doesn’t work when developing pitchers. It hasn’t worked for the Yankees all season.
Why not try it a different way?
SJ, I love reading your posts. You are absolutely one of the most level-headed, knowledgeable people on this board. I echo pretty much all of your feelings and statements — you just do it more gracefully than I do. You really know your stuff.
One thing about Hughes that you haven’t mentioned (or is part of the “not developing him in the majors” idea) — is that aside from his physical/mechanical development, developing him in the majors, only to be shelled, will completely destroy him mentally. Once the mentality is gone, he will never get it back.
I’m not arguing that Hughes should be in the majors… I’m saying the Yanks had no choice last year but to bring him because of all the injuries to the staff.
In Sept. 07 and the Playoffs, he did well enough to earn a call back this year. His performance has dictated his return to the minors (and rightfully so). I never said he’s earned a spot on the rotation and should stay there. I said his call up was forced on the Yankees by injuries. Big difference.
His 12-6 curveball is gone? What is the basis for this? Are you just saying that because he hasn’t been throwing it as much in his rehab starts? Or what, did one of your ‘people’ tell you about it and also tell you what he ate for dinner? Also, I don’t know if you believe this or not but most of the radar gun readings during his starts in the minors this time around had him again throwing 91-94, up until this last start, when he pretty much flat out said he was going through a dead arm period. Also, you are just being presumptuous in saying that his last start he was throwing all his pitches and it’s because they’re so unrefined that he got shelled. His catcher and he himself said that he was living over the middle of the plate with everything he threw. I don’t know how that’s a clear indication that “he has no secondary pitches”, it seems more like “he didn’t have any command and his pitches were flat because his arm felt like a noodle”. But I’ll let you be the harbinger of extreme pessimism that this guy will need a full year of AAA “redevelopment” because apparently you know more than anyone else.
Another reason not to rush the kid (again) is that guys don’t reach their mature levels of strength and endurance until about age 25 — and this one has already shown himself to be injury prone. Letting him get a little stronger and more durable can’t hurt.
Whether he’s ready or not, neither the Yankees nor Phil Hughes have anything to gain (and a lot to lose) by bringing him back up now. The season is just about over, and they’ll have to finish it with what they have, for better or for worse. I’m not even convinced Joba should pitch again this season, but if he does, it makes a little more sense than Hughes.
The absolute worst thing that could happen to both the Yankees and Hughes is that he comes up and is ineffective. And in this climate even a mediocre performance would be a bad thing. No, this season for Hughes is not about being in the Yankees rotation. It’s unfortunate, but in the long run (and Hughes is very young), both will be better off.
SJ tends toward extremes when he posts. There is decent info, but any adversity and it goes off the cliff.
SJ – I usually agree with your comments, but I think you are taking the negativity too far.
1) The draft was not a disaster. If Cole signs then it is probably a top 5 draft. Everything I have read point to the fact that the Yankees were mislead by Cole and his family. It was not a cluster…
2) Name me an organization that has better health track record than the Yankees in the minor leagues. It is not the Red Sox. I have lived in Boston for 13 years and follow the team closely (know yourself but know your enemy better). What is the Sox record – oh year top pitching prospect Bucholz back to AA, Hansen bust, Colon injured (but we knew that), Wakefield injured, Beckett one great season and now very much in jeopardy with his health, bullpen outside of Papelbon disaster (including homegrown Delcarmen). Tampa has had injuries. They have had more success with pitching prospects because they are always picking top 5. Guys like Joba and Brackman fall to the Yankees because of injury/signability concerns. I agree with the Yankee philosophy of taking these guys instead of just average players. But higher risk higher reward/
The Blue Jays blow out a pitcher every year.
3) I wrote a very long post about the success of the minor league pitchers over at PP awhile back. Yes some have regressed, but there is not one organization (maybe the Rays) that has more depth of pitching prospects in the minors. Yes, some have questions but many have progressed very nicely.
4) The position player prospects in the minors are a bit further off, but I can easily see Jackson, Cervelli, and at least 4-5 of the Charelston players as big league players with a few superstars. This years draft and IFA period has focused on professional hitters.
5) The Yankees are later to the game than the Red Sox by about 2 years in terms of development across the board. So lets see where things stand in a year or two.
6) Don’t give me the Red Sox and Theo have been correct with all there choices. That is simply not true: Drew, Renteria, Lugo, Crisp, Varitek hitting .200, lucking into Lowell as a salary dump with the Beckett move, trading Hanley Ramirez (albeit for Beckett and Lowell), Hansen, Delcarmen, giving up Orlando Cabrera, Gagne (when they knew he was a PEDs guy).
In short, I am as disappointed as you in this season. But all is not lost and the Yankees are not done. This was always a transition year – ALWAYS. Trades made this year in no way jeopardize the future overall plan. The main disappointment is that next year, primariliy due to the development of Joba and Hughes has the potential to be a transitition year as well. I am sure the Yankees are chomping at the bit to spend a ton in the IFA market next year after missing Inoa (again you can’t fault them for this as THEY HAD A DEAL that was reneged on by the player). They potentially will have a bounty of high draft picks this year too.
Sorry for the rant, but the negativity is grating.
to clarify, I wasn’t advocating his return to the majors, I thought it was important to note that I think that the Yankees’ hands were forced in regards to his call up last year which in turn lead to his regression this year. That’s it.
What a horrible game last night.
No point in ruining Hughes by rushing him up here. Give him time in the minors.
SJ – Wy the way I agree with you about Hughes. Let him pitch in SWB for the remainder of their season and playoffs and then a token couple of starts in NY end of Sept. However, you are not corret in your scouting report. He has been pitching as he would to major league hitters the entire time with much success other than his last start with the excuse of dead arm / under the weather. He was 92-94 hitting 95. His curveball was back and he is working on a cutter which he said felt good. He really needs to perfect the change – which again HE SAID is not ready yet.
But 92-94 touching 95 with movement, with an outstanding curve, a cutter and a change is a recipe for a top of the rotation starter.
Yes, he finsihes this year and starts next at SWB, but he will be in NY next year if his health holds up.
Honestly, considering how bad the team looks lately, Scranton and the Bronx are going to be comparably “pressurized” once you get into the middle of September. If the ultimate goal is for him to learn how to get major league hitters out, and the team will clearly have an opportunity for him to take another shot at doing that since they’re running out retread arms 3/5 days, why not give him a chance? The games will be meaningless, and the focus will be towards 2009. If he pitches well, won’t that go towards erasing some of his personal distaste with April and send him into the offseason with more confidence? And if he gets bombed, I think it just challenges him further–it makes him realize that it’s not going to be easy to transition from the minors to the bigs and maybe makes him work harder this offseason. I don’t think his performance would really dictate the team’s approach to the rotation in the offseason (they still need a pitcher, or two if fiscally/realistically possible), it would be more about the player himself. If he gets bombed, then this year continues to be a huge wake-up call, but I don’t think that a few starts in September are really changing his entire outlook–this has been a bad year for Hughes regardless of how he comes back and pitches in 2-3 starts. Likewise, it shouldn’t change the team’s approach–they still need more major league pitching next year, bottom line.
The attacks on SJ44 highlight the divide between those who watch baseball and those who watch stats and claim to be able to extrapoltae.
I’ll be at all 3 games. I don’t care if the team stinks now. Go Yankees!
sunny615 -
I understood and agree with what you were saying. Sometimes your hand is forced and you hope for the best. And it is that simple.
Hughes has a very good change. According to Nardi Contreras who sees him all the time. He just needs to learn that he needs to come from the same angle as his other pitches. Supposedly he’s “pushing” the change. His curve is good too.
Sounds like it’s just a mechanical thing with the change up. I’m sure we’ll see him in September.
morningstar – I don’t agree with your assessment. Yes, I see far too often people attack SJ. But disagreeing with his posts, particularly as they have all become negative in the last weeks is valid and I am sure he will tell you fair.
It is not stat watching, it is a difference of opinion and belief.
Jason… This being a transition year… turned into NEXT YEAR being a transition year. The whole point of being a “transition year” was to get Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba ready for the starting rotation. Hughes and Kennedy failed miserably, and now Joba is hurt (and we shouldn’t risk his arm by bringing him back early only to keep the Yankees in 3rd, or possibly worse place).
We are right back to where we were in the beginning of the season. Just a BIT further along because if *hopefully* Joba’s injury isn’t serious, he will be starting off in the rotation next year, rather than the bullpen.
“Is anybody else surprised that the Yankees are using Carl Pavano tomorrow? Wouldn’t it benefit the long-term interests of the organization to give major-league innings to Phil Hughes instead of a player they can’t wait to get rid of?â€
The diffrence Pete, is that you have given up on the seaeson, Yankee managemnet has not.
The media will not care if the games are meaningless. In fact, if Hughes doesn’t excel in a meaningless start, the repercussions will be severe as far as team PR and media/fan attacks on both Hughes and the Yankees. To my mind, it’s just not worth it. There’s already been enough that’s blown up this season.
Andrew,
I’ve watched a couple of Hughes’ starts in AAA and I watched him in Charleston. He isn’t “back”. He isn’t throwing his secondary pitches well enough to get major league hitters out.
He isn’t spotting his fastball consistently. Its why taking his pitching line and using it as a basis for his callup is a waste of time.
His stuff has to be good enough to get major league hitters out. IMO, and in the opinion of quite a few scouts I know who have seen him pitch, it isn’t.
If it was, he would be making the start on Saturday.
Do you really think the Yankees WANT to pitch Carl Pavano? They are because they have nobody else that’s ready and that includes Hughes.
The media has already buried the Yankees. The Mets have taken over the back page of the tabloids probably for the rest of the season (well, until Pavano pitches Saturday), and by the time Hughes potentially gets called up, if it’s mid-September or early September, whenever it is, anything he does will be mentioned along with the fact that the team flopped this year and so did he in April, and will be more of an afterthought. The media won’t let April go until the offseason/next April, but Hughes could personally move towards letting it go just by pitching in the big leagues and trying to make progress.
Pete,
I completely concur about Pavano.
My guess is Goose. Ironically, he’s shameless about promoting the Hall of Fame now.
I don’t think Yogi can be bothered with such new-fangled things!
morning star,
How about a third group who realize this is a blog and not High School Dramas III?
Jason,
Disagreeing is cool. I wasn’t implying that no one could disagree with SJ44. I do at times even if I don’t post those thoughts. (Mostly, though I agree with him and have learned a lot from his posts).
I was referring to a whole bunch of posts over the last few weeks that basically pull out stats without analyzinig them in context and make very aggressive assertions.
For example, before his re-promotion and re-demotion, that Ian Kennedy could not learn anything at AAA. It was obvious watching him at AAA — and I am by no means an expert, just someone with 40 years of watching — that despite the numerical success there, the kid was not doing what you need to do to succeed at the majors.
Or any of the boatload of posts, whether on Phil Hughes or Brett Gardner etc, that use stats without in0-person judgment.
mel-go, go, Waipio!
Absolutely — there are a lot of grown ups posting intellegent ideas and positions — those are the ones I try to read while skipping the others.
Lol.
I was thinking about this before the Tyson article and that just brought it to my mind again. Was 2008 a good, bad, horrible year developmentally for the entire Yankee system: Young major leaguers, Farm, Draft, IFA?
This is off the top of my head and quickly, but pretty much based on where players started 08.
ML –
Great – Joba. Bullpen – Veras, Ramirez, really have shined and solidified their places for 09
Mixed – Cano was awful at the beginning of the year, but a .300 hitter the last two and half months. Needs to find consistentcy.
Bad – Kennedy (at least this year, not yet determined for the future). Melky.
TBD – Hughes – hopefully the fixer upper at AAA will make him a much better pitcher when he returns
AAA
Good – Gardner the second time around in a very small sample is showing utility. Miranda is hitting very well at AAA. Christian has made some strides. Mccutcheon and Co. brought back Nady.
Bad – starting pitching really bad – White is done. Horne and Marquez fell off the map with injuries.
TBD – Cox had some highlights and hopefully continues to improve after surgery. Eric Duncan is still the ultimate tease. He will have an unbelievable week followed by a 1-40 or something.
AA
Good – Starting pitching. Coke, Wright and Kroenke as a previous thread have given three legit lefty options. Jones and Hacker and Aceves are at least dominant AA starters and maybe one breaks out. Claggett and Stephen Jackson have emerged as very good bullpen candidates. Austin Jackson has consolidated his gains from the second half of the year and will be exciting.
Bad – Cervelli injured all year. Tabata is gone.
TBD – Curtis – going through swing changes but the coaches still love him.
A
Good – pitching. Nova, Macallister, Melancon. This trio wil hopefully all make it to the big leagues. You have the fastest riser in Melancon and the breakout candidate of the year in Macallsiter.
Bad – Hilligoss all year. Not really anyone of consequence.
TBD – Fortenberry and Battle – both have showed nice signs, can they keep improving.
Low A – Good – read Tyson article. Suttle, Romine and Montero can be special. Laird can hit. Almonte and Angelini are learning (although may repeat a year). Heredia has been great. Betances has begun to put it together. De le Rosa has been tremendous as starter.
IFA – Good – a few solid, professional hitters
Bad – missed Inoa and Rodriguez.
Draft – Good – got a few nice gets Marshall, Mitchell, Lassiter etc.
Bad – missed Cole
Tommy John –
Good – Melancon
TBD – Sanchez, Cox, Garcia – all of showed flashes
(can’t weait for Brackman)
This is all I have time for. Please add your thoughts.
On balance a few disappointments with the highest profile being Tabata and Horne. Some great advances in the pitching ranks and with the hitters at Charleston.
I think they’re treating Hughes too much with kid gloves. They know the season is lost so throw Pavano out there.
Interesting post, Jason. I’m not as familiar with the lower levels of the Yankees’ farm system as you appear to be. I only hope you’re right about the depth of position-player talent at the Single-A level.
The problem is, even if it is there, it’s still years away then from contributing to the major league roster, which means the Yankees would still be years away from challenging the Rays and Sux as a consequence.
It will devastate me to see Jeter, Pettitte, Posada, and Mo retire without one last genuine run at a Championship.
To give them the opportunity the Yankees will have to be very aggressive on the free-agent market:
(i) they need a front of the rotation starter to allow the kids the latitude and time to develop. I don’t know whether they can sign Sabathia; frankly too much speculation already exists that he genuinely wants to play on the West Coast for my comfort. And all of the other available pitchers have one or more salient shortcomings, whether Burnett, Sheets, Lowe, or Penny.
(ii) they need to sign or to acquire another young productive, impact bat (Alas, only Teixiera fits the bill this year; Holliday, next year) I’m still not convinced Nady is any better than a 6-hitter and that his productivity this year– far exceeding his career numbers- isn’t an aberration. He doesn’t get on base enough for my taste.
(iii) they need to persuade Pettitte and Mussina to return for a year, though why either would without a second-year guaranteed I can’t fathom. Pettitte, I’d consider for 2 years, not Mussina however.
(iv) they need to retain either Giambi or Abreu, the former on a one year deal, at most; the latter on a two year deal, at most. I don’t know whether either would be amenable to less than their market value either.
The Yankees simply can’t afford to lose Giambi and Abreu’s bats next year. They risk being an even less productive lineup than they are already and without protection in the lineup for A-Rod, he won’t get pitches to hit, the yahoo fans will jeer him, and he’ll regress into a basket case again.
An outfield of Nady, Damon, and Gardner doesn’t cut it, especially if the Yankees don’t sign Teixiera for 1B.
The Yankees need to retain Abreu for a year or two until Austin Jackson or some other impact bat can assume CF.
Actually, I’d like to see either Matsui or Damon learn how to play 1b, if the Yankees can’t sign Teixiera. It’d offer them more flexibility in their lineup and a deeper bench.
Alternatively, I wonder if after a strenuous off-season conditioning program, Damon couldn’t return to CF for one more season. With two potent arms in RF and LF, the Yankees could live with Damon’s in center.
I have not pulled any stat lines. The Yankees had two candidates that they publicly named for this Saturday’s start: Carl Pavano and Phil Hughes. If this doom and gloom opinion of Hughes that is being purported in this thread was held by the Yankees, wouldn’t he be getting the Ian Kennedy “his name is unmentionable” treatment right now and not even considered for a big-league call up? Choosing Pavano over Hughes seems more a choice based on their last starts, not towards an overall dissatisfaction throughout the organization with Hughes’ progress and abilities. If that were the case, why even consider him or publicly mention him? Last I checked Chase Wright still has a pulse, so does Kei Igawa (regrettably…kidding of course). I am not going to rip your “personal scouting report”, but I’m also not going to take it for more than it is: you and your scouting buddies’ personal reports.
Just to play devil’s advocate, perhaps they mentioned Hughes as a possibility because they are so reluctant to tap Pavano that they had to consider Hughes for the start, even if he’s not ready.
SJ,
Were you not saying this offseason that Cashman was handling everything and doing a very good job? That the organization was heading in the right direction and doing it similar to Boston?
What changed? What happened?
O/T
I almost feel sorry for Argentina. They are in a huge hole and Manu’s gone to the locker room already.
Almost feel sorry. When I see Nocioni flop, all that sympathy flies out of the window.
SoS, the Spurs were not happy with Manu’s decision to play in the Olympics and rightfully so.
Schill – I can’t imagine them taking Giambi back next year. They have Posada, Miranda, Shelley Duncan and a host of other in house candidates for first base without the price tag and one-dimensionality. Further, I think you only get one of Damon and Matsui – both have trade value (to varying degrees) and both have become again relatively one-dimensional. Abreu is more difficult, and I think it depends on how the other guys shake out. He is certainly a professional hitter, but can you upgrade the all around player.
I agree you need a front end starter and CC would be nice if his arm is still attached to sign the contract. CC, Wang, Joba, Pettite, Mussina followed by Huhges, Kennedy, Aceves, Horne, Marquez, etc. I think the bullpen is pretty much set +/- Marte and + Melancon. Then potentially Coke, Kroenke, Kontos as starting pitcher conversions (except Kroenke who is a lefty reliever).
Depending on Posada’s health and Cervelli’s readiness you make the determination with Irod.
KS –
Really good post – but what fun is it to agree
so let me take exception with this idea:
“(iv) they need to retain either Giambi or Abreu, the former on a one year deal, at most; the latter on a two year deal, at most. I don’t know whether either would be amenable to less than their market value either.
The Yankees simply can’t afford to lose Giambi and Abreu’s bats next year. They risk being an even less productive lineup than they are already and without protection in the lineup for A-Rod, he won’t get pitches to hit, the yahoo fans will jeer him, and he’ll regress into a basket case again. ”
We do not give Abreu enough criticism for his defense imo – It isn’t just the wall-o-phobia, it is the decline in his ability to get to singles in front of him. I understand that as the 3-hole hitter he has played an important role in the offense by seeing a lot of pitches in front of A-Rod, but I think he is in decline and that the next 2 years will not be kind to his productivity. He seems like a good enough guy – but lets not spend another $30M over 2 years for a player when Nady is primed to fill that role.
As for the Giambino – I don’t see any reason to keep him at all. He cannot seem to defeat ‘the shift’ and while I am happy that his health has held up playing 1B (in a contract year, of course) I am looking forward to the post Big G era in a big way.
Kill-Schill(ing), I agree with everything but retaining Giambi. I think he has played himself out of New York this year, honestly. He is an inflexible, selfish, over-the-hill dog who talks a good game and hits his share of home runs and draws his share of walks, but can’t do anything else. If the team wants to compete next year, they need to find someone else to play 1st. He may not have the nice OPS or other positive numbers that Jason has, but whoever it is can compensate for that by doing a few things that The Big G has never done this year: 1) play solid defense at first, 2) hit with RISP, 3) not constantly try to go deep and end up striking out/pulling a bunch of weak grounders to the right side (or left side if they happen to be right-handed). I understand where you’re coming from in valuing his production, but really his production is almost a mirage when you consider how bad he has been for a few months and how bad he’s been all year with RISP.
“An outfield of Nady, Damon, and Gardner doesn’t cut it”
How bout’ Matsui, Garnder, Nady ?
They didn’t just “miss” on Cole. They whiffed badly.
They got “mislead” by the father? Are you kidding me? The father was ALWAYS a wild card in this stuff.
Plus, Cole’s reputation in and around his district was awful. Not bad, awful.
There were plenty of warning signs this kid and his father were unstable. By “unstable”, I don’t mean mentally unstable. I mean, not knowing what they would do.
The Yankees depended on Boras to work on the family and do what they said they would do prior to the draft. That is, sign.
My point is, you don’t do that with a kid. Especially a high school. If you want to go that route, go after Tim Melville, who ended up signing with the Royals. Or, go after Kasey Kelly, who ended up signing with the Red Sox with the next pick.
You do your homework and you stay away from immature kids and stage parents. That’s all part of preparing for the staff.
That’s a huge mistake by the Yankees.
Bleich with the second pick. A kid on nobody’s Top 75 list, who needs TJ Surgery, and is can’t pitch until 2010.
That’s a good thing? Awful move. That’s a kid you could have gotten 30-40 picks later. Especially with the buzz re: his elbow.
Bittle? Another wasted pick due to his injuries.
You mean to tell me the NY Yankees have no way of knowing about the medicals on these kids? Please, let’s not kid ourselves. They blew it.
The international signings? Well, have fired 3 guys post-Inoa and counting.
That’s a kid who was signed, sealed and delivered to the Yankees until Billy Beane sees an opening and grabs the kid.
Cashman made 3 trips to the DR during the season. Iona was a priority and they missed.
So, we end up with no first round pick signed, no Iona, the second pick needs TJ surgery and the third pick is no sign due to injury.
You still want to tell me that’s not a disaster?
I’m a Cashman fan. However, way too many mistakes have been made this year throughout the organization under his watch.
Is he responsible for all of it? Of course not. However, if you have complete autonomy in baseball operations, which he does, you can’t dismiss the mistakes as “bad luck”.
As I have said previously, this organization needs more talented people on the baseball side of the operation.
If this year hasn’t highlighted that fact, folks just don’t want to see reality.
SJ44 –
Apparently drafting Cole would have been a huge mistake for any team who was interested in him. The Red Sox were hoping to draft him if the Yankees hadn’t for instance.
Not saying maybe they could have avoided the situation, but Cole was going to be drafted by someone.
SJ – Come on – no way they take the kid with their #1 pick if they think it is a realistic shot that he does not sign. I read an interview with Damon Oppenheimer who stated the same thing. They played everything by the Cole’s rules and then got turned down flat. (I too read somewhere that Cole does have a bad rep – I think it was actually from one of the guys the Yankees signed from this year’s draft). It is also my understanding that the firings internationally do not have to do with Inoa but with the ongoing MLB investigation.
Perhaps you have inside sources and I am just combing stuff on the web. But, to me it seems like the perfect storm of problems. Cashman and Co.s fault I cannot guess.
I do agree you want as full a pipeline of professional scouts and evaluators all over the world. The Yankees should spend there like they do on the major league roster.
Incidentally – watching Hughes’ struggle to really break through and become a solid MLB pitcher makes me appreciate Wanger a great deal.
You realize how difficult it must have been for CMW to attain the success he enjoyed. With the team in the ditch there’s no way that Wang will rush back and pitch in September, which seems like a good thing now. I just hope he’s fully healed come springtime and puts together a return to his winning ways.
“It doesn’t look good but this team is technically still in the race. They are 6 back today and have 6 games left with Boston”
You are forgetting the Twins. Beating up on Boston would just give the wild card to Minny.
way too over the top today, SJ, honestly.
i find it interesting that we hear the criticism about the Yankees now about Cole, and didnt hear a peep about any of this in the days and weeks leading up to the deadline.
doesnt make sense to me.
people before this year’s draft absolutely praised Oppenheimer for his draft history, ability to evaluate talent, etc. now all of a sudden, they had an average draft class, and people are calling for a total overhaul of baseball ops?
thats like calling for Kevin Long to get fired because they couldnt score runs this year.
“The worst part? After four years without a pulse, Pavano gets to audition for a job next season at the expense of the Yankees. Why not just release him at this point and move on?”
Pavano is going to have an Igawa Saturday. Bank on it.
Cole was a gamble. 50/50 it goes the other way and Cashman comes up roses.
The thought of Matsui chugging out a knee-hobbled hit – Fred Sanford style – still kills me, Pete.
“This is it! This is the big one! I’m comin’ Weezie!”
Nothing to lose by pitching Pavano. As we know he can pitch “IF HEALTHY” but we can’t expect mid season form from him. If he doesn’t do well its not his fault if the team doesn’t make the playoffs. The team had already gotten itself in a bad position in the standings without his help.
If he somehow helps the team get to the playoffs, he owed them.
Is there any concern about a Pavano innings limit? Screw an innings limit .. why would the Yanks want to preserve his arm? He’s been preserving it for 4 years.
There are ZERO expectations you can make on him. He was already a loss written off and he’s only getting a shot because the rotation’s decimated to the point where there’s little hope left for the season. This is just seeing if lightning will strike during what’s essentially on the borderline between salvaging anything from the season and mop-up duty. And if lightning doesn’t strike, you hope we’re still in it if Hughes or Joba is ready in two weeks.
Bad Scooter,
Good question. I don’t know. I really don’t. To see so many mistakes that have been made throughout this year is really puzzling to me. I never saw it coming.
You can’t turn the organization into a “player development” organization, which the Yankees have correctly done, and make so many mistakes on the draft and the international front. You just can’t.
Its a fireable offense and 3 guys in Latin America have already gotten canned. I wouldn’t be surprised if more people in player development got fired after this season.
The parent club? An old, injured team, with a lot of guys that won’t be back next year and play like they know it. That, frustrating as it may be, is something you can live with IF the player development side is covered.
However, when you have the year they have had in player development, sorry, that’s a problem.
They don’t have a single position player prospect in AAA. Not one. That’s not just my opinion, its the opinion of just about every competent scout in baseball.
AA? Austin Jackson and Ramiro Pena are legitimate prospects. The rest? Big question marks.
The Charleston team is a talented team. Yet, that’s the lowest level of A Ball so, we have to see how these guys handle AA next year. That’s the test as to whether or not these guys have a shot or are just guys. Some great potential with guys like Montero, Almonte, Laird, etc. But, AA seperates real prospects from hype guys. Until we see how they handle AA, its too early to say they are “can’t miss” guys.
Tampa, the higher level of A Ball? No position prospects.
That’s why you can’t make the mistakes they made in the draft this year. It just sets you back.
KS,
Since July 2, Giambi has 0 doubles, is hitting .192, has 37K’s in 110 AB’s, and has 4 hits with RISP. This is crunch time and he has been awful. Not bad, awful.
He can’t be off this team soon enough. There is no logical reason to bring him back. He is one of the problems, and not part of the solution, to this team.
Abreu? His overall game has declined big time. He’s a terrible OF, and that isn’t going to change as he gets older.
He’s not the OBP machine he used to be, is a poor baserunner and doesn’t hit good pitching anymore.
He’s a player you keep if you have an available spot at DH, and a more complete team. In the state the Yankees are in right now? He goes and you don’t look back.
I’ll take a 29 year old Xavier Nady over a 35 year old Bobby Abreu to play RF for next year.
Here is what they need to do next year. They need to go after CC Sabathia hard. A front of the rotation starter is what they need. If they get CC, then you have Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, and you can either take Moose or Andy. That moves Rasner into the pen as the long reliever/spot starter. You also still have Giese. The pen is in good shape for next year, but a power arm for the 8th would be nice. For catcher you have Molina, and I would offer Pudge a one year deal to come back. Posada will have to DH for part of the year, but they have to sit him down after the season, and tell him to get a first basemen’s mitt. Jeter & Arod are at SS & 3B. Cano isn’t going anywhere, unless a great deal comes through, so he’s at 2b. In right you have Nady. Cut bait with Abreu, he’s a good hitter, but there’s no motivation to play hard and go all out. In Left they need to go out and sign Adam Dunn. In center you can platoon Damon & Gardner for one year until Jackson comes up. Matsui’s can hit, but it might be time to trade him. He can’t play the outfield, and is looking like a permanent DH. Damon isn’t far behind, but at least he can hit leadoff, and can still play the outfield (That game in Toronto aside).
Last but not least, it’s time for any crazy notion of the Yanks bringing back the albatross known as Jason Giambi, to be put to rest. The team needs to be free of “The Stache” for good.
“i find it interesting that we hear the criticism about the Yankees now about Cole, and didnt hear a peep about any of this in the days and weeks leading up to the deadline.
doesnt make sense to me.”
Turn Two – Every other team signed their first round pick except for ‘Cold Pizza’ Bowden (and one other?).
Although I don’t really know how you get an athletes’ MRIs before picking him in Bittle’s case this really was a rough draft.
But the previous successes do cushion the blow.
Two words for you regarding Phil Hughes and whether he should be brought back up this year – Homer Bailey.
It’s important to remember that Bailey was brought up around the same time as Hughes – both were rushed too soon -and both had about the same amount of hype.
Now, Bailey is lost, rocked in the majors a number of times and trying to find his way back. I watched him pitch against the Red Sox this year and he threw almost fastballs entirely and was just getting hammered.
I think Jerry Remy even commented that it’s not at all clear what Bailey’s best pitch is.
Compare that to what has happened to Hughes. The reports we’ve been hearing from his minor league starts is that he’s throwing mostly fastballs. His curve and change, what were his primary out pitches, have fallen by the wayside. Now he’s working on a cutter, and throwing more silders. If he comes up this year, major league hitters will destroy him. That’s just what is going to happen. Keep him AAA until he develops a full arsenal of pitches. If he doesn’t, well his career will have been a monumental bust.
The best thing that can happen when the team is mathematically eliminated is for Hank and Hal Steinbrenner to privately meet with Buck Showalter and ask him to come on board as a strong piece to right the ship for 2009 and beyond.
Buck realizes that George and his impatience are no longer a fear to bring out his best baseball qualities as was done in ’95.
Cashman is virtually by himself in personnel decisions. His assistant GM (Jean Afterman) basically handles his paperwork, contracts, etc. and is a non-factor.
Showalter’s role would be a liaison between the front office to Cashman to the field manager in certain decision making.
This would also keep Randy Levine and Lonn Trost away from baseball decisions.
Some would say that this makes the front office top heavy. Not the case at all. It just separates baseball from business decisions which should have been done all along.
If by “mistakes” in Latin America, you mean stealing signing bonus money from players, than yeah that is what those 3 scouts got fired for. But their dismissal is not correlated to losing Inoa or failing to sign other big Latin prospects. It’s from just being criminals.
Oh yeah, and they have to figure out some way to get rid of that Joke Kei Igawa.
“Turn Two – Every other team signed their first round pick except for ‘Cold Pizza’ Bowden (and one other?).”
so what? what does this even mean?
There’s one reason not to give up on this season yet — the Red Sox are a flawed team. Becket is hurt, Manny is gone, Bucholz is getting lit up, etc. If A-Rod and a couple of other guys besides Jeter can get hot finally, they can beat up on Boston and get within striking distance. I’ll grant you that they’ve shown no evidence of being able to get it together, but it remains possible.
I’ll say this in defense of Pavano — He has one thing none of the starters (including the injured ones) have, except for Andy — a ring. And he didn’t get that ring by sitting on the DL. He led the Marlins staff in innings in 2003, not counting the playoffs. The he beat the Giants twice in the NLDS, started once and came out of the bullpen twice against the Cubs (pitching very well but no decisions) in the NLCS and then giving up 1 run in eight innings against Clemens and the NY Yankees in the World Series (before the bullpen blew it. Marlins eventually won). It’s not like the guy lacked toughness then. The next year, he gave the Marlins 222.2 innings, again leading the staff. He went 18-8 for a team that barely finished at .500. Look to all those innings as a reason for his injuries. I’ll admit, he seems to have lacked toughness in NY, but this guy was a bulldog in Miami.
Rer 98, good point on Trost & Levine. They have way too much input on the team, and have shown they know nothing about assessing talent. They should stick to the business side, and keep their hands off the team. Hank should also go back to the horse farm, because he knows nothing. I think you have to bring in a good “Baseball man” to work with Cashman. That way Hank and Hal can go about counting their Billions of dollars from the new stadium’s revenue.
Half the teams sign guys that have no other choice but to sign. Picking 28th you can go for a lower ceiling guy, or a potential top five pick who falls. It so far has worked with Joba, Betances, Melancon and failed with Cole.
Again, Cole is a non-issue from a Yankee standpoint. They picked him because they were assured he was going to sign. They were going to make him very, very rich. They were told NO.
There is in my opinion no problem with Oppenheimer and Cash and Co. with draft and draft strategy. There will be guys from this draft like Marshall, Bleich, Mitchell, Lssiter, Turley, Josepd, Adams etc that will be prospects.
I know the upper levels are not filled with position playing prospects like the Sox. But, the Yankee are two years behind the Sox in terms of philospohy of development. In two years you will be stocked at AAA and AA with talent. The first couple of draft years were really focused on pitching (which in my opinion was correct). You have seen the results in the rotation and in the pen with more to come. The position player focus in the draft and IFA market is only about two years old and certainly by all reports going gangbusters already (Jackson, Charleston, Deleon, Sosa, Joseph, Adams etc).
“so what? what does this even mean?”
That the Yankees were unable to accomplish something that apparently isn’t all that difficult. Identify a talent and sign it. And this is after the organization has decided to emphasize that draft.
TurnTwo,
I wrote for weeks on here the Cole situation was problematic.
I had people attack me daily for saying so. I wrote almost daily when folks wrote he would sign to not be so sure of that.
My info was rock solid at to how problematic this situation was. Unfortunately, the info I got turned out to be correct.
If you are the Yankees, do you really need to go that route for a HS kid? Or, do you look to other alternatives?
If you are the Yankees, you can’t be one of the teams, especially a team that always spends over slot, to not sign your first round pick. Its inexcusable.
Only the Yankees and the Washington Nationals didn’t sign their first round picks this year. The Nationals are known as the worst run franchise in baseball. Not a coupling you want to be in if you are the Yankees.
Its a bottom line business and they missed…bigtime.
Doreen,
Correct, somebody would have drafted him. That doesn’t mean you (the Yankees) do and get left at the altar. You avoid kids like that.
In a way, I’m glad they didn’t sign him at the last moment because they would have spent years trying to get this kid to follow direction.
The problem is, when you have nothing to show for the next two spots you drafted, it compounds the problem.
Especially when there were other, tough to sign kids they could have drafted and signed.
You can spin it any way you want. If you objectively evaluate what they did in the draft and on the international front, it fell way below expectations this year. That’s not good.
Dennis, the Yanks can’t string together more than two wins in a row, and haven’t won a series in over a month. Babe Ruth’s ghost would have to come in and play the outfield for them to make a run at this thing.
Rays go 3-6, NYY goes 9-1,,,and we are only 5 back, with 25 games to play !!! (lol)
“That the Yankees were unable to accomplish something that apparently isn’t all that difficult.”
completely flawed logic.
I guess we’ll have to disagree about Abreu, SJ44. I still think he’s the best option for the Yankees in RF for one or two more years if he’d agree to accept Matsui or Damon’s salary.
His .OBA is down in 30 points in ’07 and ’08 because pitchers throw more strikes to him and he walks less, not because he’s less patient at the plate. He still sees the same number of P/PA he has every year, 4.3 to 4.4. And his slugging perecentage, owing to his double, is where it always is.
I also disagree with you about his base-running. He doesn’t steal bases as well as he once did, but there are few Yankees that move faster down the line to first-base and avoid the DP than Abreu.
His defense also doesn’t bother me because of his arm. The singles that fall in front of him on occasion don’t bother me. As long as Abreu still prevents runners from moving from 1st to 3rd on base-hits to RF because of his arm’s strength and accuracy, I can live with his defensive deficiencies.
Giambi, on the other hand, I would advocate retaining if he agreed to a small salary and the Yankees could use him as a bench player. Giambi’s numbers have declined recently because his bat has slowed. As a part-time DH or 1B at low cost, he’d be a much more productive bat. I’d much prefer to see him, quite frankly, in the role than Wilson Betemit, who also shows no plate discipline and never walks.
Kill-Schill(ing) — So you think Giambi can handle being the backup SS/3B? Actually, even he’d probably do a better job than Betemit. lol
Haven’t they done this before, though, in terms of taking risks? They drafted Austin Jackson and everyone thought he was going to play basketball and not sign. They threw money at him and he signed and now he’s their best prospect. Across baseball people thought Cole was going to be a tough sign, but the assumption was that he was just looking for tons of money, not that he or his family or whoever didn’t actually want him to become a professional baseball player right away. I think it’s true that there was a lot of doubt over how the negotiations were going to go, and you can fault the Yankees for constantly going after players with “tough sign” labeled to them, but to say that they should have not taken the risk flies in the face of what they’ve done in most drafts lately. Chamberlain was considered a risky pick because of his health troubles at Nebraska, Brackman obviously he hasn’t even pitched yet…they take risks with the draft, it’s been like that for a while. Not saying it’s right, but I don’t understand why it’s so shocking and upsetting and warranting all this hubbub.
Andrew,
Abel Guerra didn’t get fired for the scouting payoffs. He got fired over Iona.
BTW, scouting payoffs is not exactly “news” to people in the game. It is to the Feds, and that’s the problem.
As far as baseball is concerned, its not exactly a big secret some of these guys were on the take.
Guerra ran the operation down there and he was the guy who had to deliver Iona. He had him in the fold and he lost his focus. Not over the scouting payoffs but, over the the mistaken belief nobody would swoop in and get the kid.
He didn’t account for the fact that once the hype machine went into full gear on the kid, the price was going to go up.
Instead, there was no communication back to the Yankees as to what was happening down there until it was too late.
Not the way to work, not the way to get a kid signed, and he got canned for it. In fact, they canned him prior to the signing period commencing in order to try and salvage it and get the kid signed. Unfortunately, it was too late.
“If you are the Yankees, do you really need to go that route for a HS kid? Or, do you look to other alternatives?
If you are the Yankees, you can’t be one of the teams, especially a team that always spends over slot, to not sign your first round pick. Its inexcusable.”
i do remember you saying that the situation was problematic, but not once did you say it was an awful pick for the yankees until Cole pulled back. hindsight is 20/20.
like RSM said, it was a 50/50 gamble, and if it goes the other way, Cashman and Oppenheimer come up with a steal. but now that he doesnt sign, the organization did an awful job?
dont you think they knew this going in? obviously, where they picked, they felt it was worth it.
they didnt get him- so what? it sucks, but its not like they dont have a ton of pitching prospects to cover themselves, and they knew that, too.
“Not saying it’s right, but I don’t understand why it’s so shocking and upsetting and warranting all this hubbub.”
exactly. high risk/high reward. recently for the organization, its worked out. this year? it didnt.
and if the yankees were crusing to the playoffs this year, i bet this doesnt even get half the attention its getting right now.
Austin Jackson wasn’t a first round pick. Tough signs, like Jackson and Betances for example (as well as Lassiter this year), you take later in the draft.
If you are the Yankees, you don’t take a tough sign in the first round. That’s a round that you have to have a 100% success rate in signing. You can’t miss on a first round pick. Especially when you are an over the slot team like the Yankees.
That’s why its a bad miss and not analagous to tough signs.
I still can’t believe people in here are clamoring for the return of Phil Hughes right away.
What is it? Did you buy his Jersey or something? Have a poster of “Generation Trey” up over your bed? Newsflash — The experiment failed.
The fanboy/fangirl nonsense in this forum really goes too far.
If you cared about the kid and his development and cared about the Yankees possibly winning again, you want Phil Hughes in the minor leagues working on his game again.
You’re hanging your hat on a 3-4 inning playoff performance from last year and an almost no hitter.
He has given us ZERO signs that he is consistently that pitcher he was on those TWO occasions.
He needs to be far away from the big leagues until the team is sure he’s ready.
But I know the mentality of most people in here.
“He’s homegrown!”, “He’s the type of kid I’d want my daughter to date”!
These are the same people who were happier with Andy Phillips and Matty DeSalvo last year because they’d rather lose with “good” homegrown boys.
This whole mentality that has overtaken part of this fanbase, this rabid “homegrown boy” mania that goes on in here is ridiculous.
Next season Hughes and Kennedy shouldn’t even be among the top 6 in contention for rotation spots before Spring Training.
They should be told they are ticketed for Scranton to work on their games and if they pitch lights out down there they can earn a promotion when someone gets hurt (and someone always gets hurt) or they can rebuild their trade value so we can actually get something decent for them.
I like Hughes and I want him to succeed, but this nonsense with this fanbase with calling him “Franchise” and thinking a kid who legitimately has no out pitch in the majors and melted down on the mound earlier this season is ready to come back up here is wrong.
If they keep failing and take their lumps at the major league level before they are ready, you run the risk of losing them mentally and losing their trade value.
This is a guy we could have traded for a Cy Young winner this off season.
That opportunity won’t prevent itself again unless he stays down in the minors and pitches lights out and shows he’s ready for the next step.
As for Kennedy, he’s a lost cause. He strikes me as the type of jerk who looks at what Karstens did in Pittsburgh his first few starts and probably tells himself, “see, it’s not me, it’s the NY and the Yankees!”.
Maybe another year in Scranton and the fact that whoever the GM is next year doesn’t even breathe his name in regards to next years rotation possibilities will be a start in the right direction. I still don’t think he has the talent/stuff to be as good as anyone “projected” him to be.
So that guy may have been fired for Inoa, but three as the number of scouts canned over him bolting for Oakland is sensationalized because Carlos Rios and Ramon Valdivia definitely got fired for being a part of the FBI’s probe into the kickbacks.
http://theblogofchampions.com/.....s-red-sox/
Mega-bowl! Mega-bowl! Mega-bowl!
First off, they don’t have a “ton” of pitching prospects. Certainly not enough of them to not sign their first round pick.
If they did, Carl Pavano wouldn’t be pitching on Saturday.
My point is, there were other guys in the draft, guys with as much upside as Cole, they could have used a first round pick to select.
You don’t miss on first round picks. That’s not when you “gamble”. You gamble on tough signs in later rounds of the draft.
Ryan Westermorland and Tim Melville were two kids that were considered very tough signs. If they were not, they would have been picked in the Top 15 in this draft. Both kids got drafted out of the first round by teams that knew they would be tough signs. Those (the Sox in Westermorland’s case, the Royals in Melville’s case) teams were not going to risk using their first round pick on a tough sign. Even though both kids were Top 15 talents.
Its just not the way you run a draft.
The current situation of the parent team is not why this is now an issue. Its an issue because the organization has told its fan base, as well as the media, their #1 priority is to build and develop players from within.
When you miss on the first 3 picks of the draft after telling the world you are developing from within, as well as missing on Inoa on the Latin American front, its a big deal. It shows a disconnect that gives people reason to question why and how things are done. Legitimately so, IMO.
“If you are the Yankees, you don’t take a tough sign in the first round.”
True but usually tough signs come down to money. That wasn’t the case with Cole. It was him and his family just either straight up lied to the Yankees about him wanting to sign with them or they just flat out changed their minds and opted for college.
Can’t blame the Yankees for that.
Lets go Giants!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SJ44
Do you think that Hank and Hal are capable of hiring and firing the right people to get this ship righted?
It seems to me that they have to be accountable going forward as they are running things now.
Or are we doomed ala Baltimore and Angelos?
Organizations generally reflect the leadership at the top.
Where do you rank them?
I don’t understand what the difference is between missing on a risky first round pick who doesn’t sign, as opposed to taking someone in the first round who ends up being a bust anyway, you know, CJ Henry, Eric Duncan, Jon Poterson, Marquez (maybe not officially a bust yet). The Yankees have taken risks early in the draft because they haven’t looked at it as “do or die” as other teams because they spend more money than other teams. This draft looks bad at the top, and maybe it will make them take fewer risky players in 2009′s early rounds, but the baseball operations people don’t all need to be fired, I don’t think. They have still found players lately, and the system is still in better shape than it has been in years past, no matter how bleak of a picture that is being painted here based on players being hurt and struggling.
“True but usually tough signs come down to money. That wasn’t the case with Cole. It was him and his family just either straight up lied to the Yankees about him wanting to sign with them or they just flat out changed their minds and opted for college.
Can’t blame the Yankees for that.”
exactly. which is why its very easy to stand on a pedastal and preach about the yankees failure to sign Cole when hindsight is 20/20.
“First off, they don’t have a “ton†of pitching prospects. Certainly not enough of them to not sign their first round pick.
If they did, Carl Pavano wouldn’t be pitching on Saturday.”
you know as well as i do that these things are not related AT ALL.
when you’ve got guys like Betances, Brackman, Garcia, Heredia, and McAllister, etc, in the pipeline, albeit at low levels, you have a group of high-ceiling prospects most other organizations dont have. Cole would have been an embarrassment of riches. of course they all have to prove their worth, but thats any prospect and any farm system.
but because they are starting Pavano on Saturday has nothing to do with them not having a bunch pitching prospects in the organization. you’re better than that.
I have no problem with starting Pavano tomorrow and next Thursday. If he does well, NYY can trade/request waivers on him and move him for a prospect of some sort to a team that needs a starter to make their push. They get him before September 1st, in time to put him on the post season roster.
We will know the answer to that question in this off-season.
This is shaping up as the worst year of Yankee Baseball since 1992.
Up and down the organization mistakes, some significant, have been made. Nobody really skates on the bad decision front. Everyone has had a bad year.
Now, we see what Hank and Hal will do about it.
Can’t just say, “bad luck, go get-em next year”. That’s BS.
Can’t use injuries as an excuse. More BS.
Can’t just spend in free agency like a drunken sailor on leave and think that alone will solve your problems. It won’t.
Who takes the fall for this year? Given the history of the Steinbrenner’s ownership of this team, you know somebody is gonna take the hit for this season.
What changes will be made in the way they are doing things?
Who will be making those decisions?
These are the important questions Hank and Hal have to have the correct answers to in the off-season.
Can they do it? They are both smart guys. However, emotion has to stay out of their decisionmaking.
They may like someone personally and want to see them succeed in a given position. However, if that person isn’t the best person for the job, he/she has to go.
Its why I advocate bringing in someone from the outside to evaluate the entire organization from top to bottom.
It would give them a roadmap toward making the right moves and not just make moves that are more cosmetic, rather than effective, in nature.
SJ44: G Love’s mention of “Generation Trey” made me cringe. Oh, for the gift of hindsight! Obviously, that was a failed experiment. At whose doorstep does the failure lie?
I have real hope for Joba. Were Hughes and Kennedy just over-hyped? Did someone misinterpret that they were both ready for primetime?
Also, you said that Hughes is lacking an out pitch. Is that a function of being injured, is it something he had and lost (and can regain by remaining in the minors)? Or was there an organizational mistake in believing that he had the pitches necessary to succeed now, at this level, if he had not gotten injured?
Were the Yankees correct in envisioning Kennedy as a #4 or #5 starter? Does he have the makeup to be that in the future – in other words, is he a work in progress who was just brought up too soon? Or did they miss on him, too?
Put Pavano out there and don’t take him out until the game is over. Nothing but complete games from him!!!
wow, a wealth of information on the blog today.
imo, the yankees are doing pavano a favor. they could throw igawa, chase wright, or any other aa pitcher who is an organizational arm out there and keep carl in the minors, or just release him. they are letting him show off his stuff, hopefully the same stuff that got him a very large contract at the time. if i remember correctly, people thought he’d be a 3rd starter for us. $10 mill for a 3rd starter set the market and got a lot of other mediocre pitchers that kind of money.
hopefully he pitches well, goes to another big market team and becomes the butt of their jokes.
It would be very disappointing to see Brian Cashman leave the organization. I think his plan had some merit, albeit weaknesses too. The execution was just terrible and there was no backup plan.
He’s a smart man and it’s not like he doesnt have a lot to offer. But the Yankees need someone else to evaluate talent. There’s little doubt that identifying talent is not Brian Cashman’s strong suit. I hate to bring up Kei Igawa, but if you had a really ugly canary yellow pinstripped suit in your closet, your wife certainly has the right to ask “What WERE you thinking???”
If his ego has gotten so big that he couldn’t accept an assistant, then it’s so long Brian, it’s been good to know you.
Cashman has made mistakes the last 2 years that have set this franchise back at least 5 years. That’s unacceptable and he needs to be accountable.
It’s not all his fault. The players have not performed as they should. Jason Giambi, at times it was fun knowing you, but goodbye. Between the ’04 choke, the steroid embarrasment he brought to the team and his pathetic performance with RISP this year, he needs to go.
This team has been in a steady decline sine 2004. It’s time to clean house. Jeter will stay. Mo is obviously not going anywhere soon. But other than Joba, there isn’t a player on this team that should be off limits in trade talk, including ARod.
I don’t know why Damon Oppenheim is touted as some kind of infallible expert and draft guru. (He, by the way, also was the major proponent for and reason why the Yankees signed Tony Wommack, by the way.)
In 2005, he chose CJ Henry with the 17th pick. The Red Sox proceeded to take Jacoby Ellsbury with the 23rd pick, Craig Hansen at the 26th pick, and Clay Buccholz with the 42nd pick and Jed Lowrie with the 45th.
The Twins, meanwhile, picked Matt Garza with the 25th pick.
From 1997 to 2003, I list below the Yankees 1st-round draft picks:
2003 Eric Duncan 27
2002 NONE —
2001 John Ford-Griffin, 3b 23
2000 David Parrish, c 28
1999 Danny Walling, rhp 27
1998 Andy Brown, of 24
1997 Tyrell Godwin, of
Do any of these names ring a bell?
How long has Oppenheim been running the Yankees amateur draft?
Off topic, but how low has Igawa sunk? His name is never even mentioned anymore as a possible option to start a game. Am I too soft that I actually feel a little bad for the guy? Well, just a little bad.
I’m curious as to why there is so much desire to dump Cano after one off-season. Talk about over-reaction and utter stupidity. To begin with, there are no options on the market, and certainly none that can replace his defense and offense. Don’t even suggest O. Hudson, who is gone for this season and wanted a multi-year contract from “Zona at 13-15 mil a year.
‘ A little good news. I’ve arranged a reader Q&A with a certain Hall of Famer who should give us some interesting answers. More on that to come.’
The only good news for us yankee fans is the same old dumb phrase that ‘we can save upto 15% by switching to geico.. ‘ Really nothing else is good news at this moment…
In mulling trades I neglected to think about all the no trade clauses on the roster. ARod and Damon cant be moved, and maybe Matsui too. My bad.
Not sure but I don’t think Oppenheimer has been running the draft that long. He’s been doing it since 05 I believe.
GreenBeret7,
I’m with you. I wouldnt dump Cano just for anybody. But he’s young and his contract isnt crazy, so he might be one of the few real trade chips the Yankees possess.
The offseason promises to be the busiest and most significant that the Yankees have experienced in many years.
Use the current 40-man roster as a guide for the additions and subtractions that will take place both on the major league level as well as the minor league players that will need to be added.
Back page tabloid news could appear at any given day after the World Series is concluded, football notwithstanding.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....p?c_id=nyy
Lots of hyperbole today. The impending doom associated with the apparently pathetic and lost state of Yankees player development is reading like a hybrid of Baseball America and the New York Post.
“True but usually tough signs come down to money. That wasn’t the case with Cole. It was him and his family just either straight up lied to the Yankees about him wanting to sign with them or they just flat out changed their minds and opted for college.
Can’t blame the Yankees for that.”
its my understanding that there was nothing to lie about. baseball draft is not something a kid registers for. he’s just in it and a team will draft you whether you want or intend to be drafted or not. now, i dont know if the twi parties actually discussed before the draft or not, but if they drafted him just expecting hed skip college for big bucks, they deserve to get burned.
“I’m curious as to why there is so much desire to dump Cano after one off-season.”
again, noone is intelligently arguing that Cano should be dumped at all. they are saying that should Cano be made available, depending on what kind of return he could get back on the trade market, it might be wise to move him if you get excellent value in return.
Does anyone know of an instance where Girardi has actually ripped his team? Where’s the fire that I expected from this guy? I was expecting the anti-Torre and we’ve just got Torre Jr…minus depletion and wins….but then again, I don’t know if Torre could have won with these injuries either.
Now is not the time to trade Cano. He has been up here too long and shown too much to suddenly decide he can’t play. But they need to figure out the problem which, to this outsider, seems to be complacency and perhaps too much NY night life. I’ve heard people say “bring back Bowa” but if his supposedly fiery, no BS manager can’t get effort out of him, why is he the manager? This is not what I expected from Girardi’s team. Not just Cano, but Melky, Kennedy, etc. I’d like to know if Jeter, A-Rod, Andy, Moose or Mariano have attempted to get through to (shame) these guys into competing. Last year, Rodriguez seemed to take Cano and Cabrera under his wing. Has that changed? Maybe A-Rod’s got his hands full with his personal stuff…
GreenBeret:
You ask why? Because Cano actually has some value, and we could maybe get 2 good players in return. His makeup and style of play do not fit what this team should be looking for long term. If Cano can be used to fill other holes (like CF), finding a serviceable second baseman shouldn’t be too hard.
I’m not saying we should dump Cano, but just that we should explore what we could get in return. Then, only trade him if it’s for something valuable.
What’s the harm in testing the waters. If nothing tempting develops, then he stays. Additionally, knowing he was being shopped might motivate him a little.
Rich, lying in terms of saying “yeah I’ll sign” which is what Cole said. If you wasn’t going to sign don’t say you’ll sign.
SJ,
What are the chances that Hal decides to take the reins from Hank and really embraces the Yankees like his father.
It seems to me that he is a level headed businessman, who can see where his staff has made mistakes and doesn’t have the relationships like his father had with the Tampa mafia and will clean house if needed and surround himself with good baseball people.
Max Kellerman has said many times, that once the Sawx brought in Bill James, that they would win some 4-5 championships in the next ten years.
As of today they have won 2 of the last 5 since the new ownership group came into Beantown.
I don’t know the name of the guy who runs the Sawx drafts, but I’ve read that he is a fast, up incoming baseball guy. Do these guys have allegiances’ to teams like some players and fans do to certain teams or is just business as usual for them?
To all the idiots crying about this being the worst year of Yankee baseball in decades, organizational mistakes,blah blah blah….
Just shut up. Really. Enough with the spoiled Yankee fans whining about not making the playoffs. This is the first year in 15 years the team didn’t make it. So what? You can’t win every single year. Nobody ever has. The Ruth/Gehrig Yankees failed to make the playoffs in 1929, 1930, 1931… and that may have been the greatest team ever.
I hate the sense of entitlement spoiled Yankee fans have.. the ones under 30 years old.. Those of us who remember the late 60′s and early 70′s aren’t crying at all. Get a grip alread.
Something just dawned on me. Can imagine the reception the Yankees are going to get at the Stadium next week? Unless they find a way to play well against Boston and win, I don’t think it’s gonna be pretty.
What do folks think is the best way to voice their displeasure with our lovable underachievers?
1. Boo
2. Hiss
3. Turn around in your seat when the Yanks come to bat.
4. Hold hands and sing Kumbaya
“Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Hear me singing, Lord, kum ba yah
Hear me singing, Lord, kum ba yah
Hear me singing, Lord, kum ba yah
Oh Lord, kum ba yah
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya “
Jason, during your run-down on minor league talent, among the two most glaring of your ommissions are LHP Wilkins De La Rosa and closer Jonathan Ortiz. These two are legitimate. The most intriguing is De La Rosa. First full year as a pitcher and has a nearly 3-1 strikeout to walk ratio. 122 strikeouts in 100 innings, 42 walks and 2 homers allowed, 68 hits and an ERA of 2.10. Ortiz is nearly as impressive with his numbers.
Any fans seen now wearing Generation Trey shirts have either started drinking early or have a pass from Bellevue.
It was a myth to begin with.
Cashman will never agree to have an independent party evaluate the team… he will feel threatened and leave. Besides, most of the blame is going to ultimately fall on Cashman and his staff for all the misfortune and miscalculations that have taken place this year. Who else is going to get blamed? Levine? Trost? Stick? Blame will be assigned to the guys who are in charge of the minor league/international operations, but they work under Cashman and Cash has final say in all transactions, so wouldn’t he be just as much to blame as his subordinates? And all the problems with the ML team fall directly on him. One way on another, it will all come back to Cashman. The only way it will not come back to him is if there is another scandal going on in the organization under Cashman’s nose that involves Levine or some lesser party. But it’s not like this miscalculations are new, they go back to Dice-K and how we came in 4th in the bidding, behind the likes of the Mets and Texas.
I really don’t think Hank/Hal are as furious as the fans are. They have already made excuses for the poor play– like the injuries and the kids going through growing pains, so they will probably just brush this year to the side and concentrate in the 08 FA class. I don’t agree with that, but thats probably what will happen.
But if there was such miscalculation in the organization this year, should be confident those same entities don’t carry into the 08 FA class and sabotage that too?
“What do folks think is the best way to voice their displeasure with our lovable underachievers?”
i have tickets to the game on saturday… really, i was only motivated to buy to get one last chance to get to the stadium at a reasonable price before they shut it down.
i would guess it’ll be a mix of a little moan and groan early, and then overall progress for the better or worse depending on how the game actually goes.
GB7 – Thank you very much. You are completely correct. I think DLR was supposed to pitch last night – hopefully he goes tonight instead. He is a free agent I believe and they will need to resign him. It sounds like he has tremendous stuff and is a lefty to boot.
Again, this is why I take exception with this year being a bust. In my opinion if you can develop a few top notch guys a year that is tremendous.
We have Veras, Ramirez, Robertson, Melancon, Miranda, Jackson, Clagett, Coke, Aceves, Kontos, Jones, Pope, Macallister, Nova, Heredia, Betances, Brackman (getting into really good shape and ready to roll), Garcia, Sanchez, Romine, Montero, Suttle, Laird, Almonte, Angelini, Deleon, Marshall, Lassiter, Joseph, Adams etc etc etc.
I do not think by any meand is this a systemic failure. The Yankee minor league system in total probably has the best overall win/loss record in the minors. That doesn’t mean everything, but it does mean something.
KennyH123,
“Those of us who remember the late 60’s and early 70’s aren’t crying at all. ”
You don’t speak for all of us. I more than qualify you age criteria and I’m not happy.It has nothing to do with being “spoiled”. I’m mad because there was no reason for the Yankees to be in the condition they now find themselves. They are where they are due to incompetence and a lack of leadership.
If you’re ok with the current state, good for you. But don’t speak for those who put up a lot of money to support this team.
Drive 4-5, not to mention time and emotion.
Kill-Schill – you just listed a few reasons why the price of free agents tends to run high. You have a much better idea of what you’re getting than with a “prospect”. That’s the other side of the coin re:player development. You take some of the uncertainty our of the equation. You take risks that you’ll trade away someone who develops into a good player (like Jay Buhner, or the Mets and Nolan Ryan) for someone who can help you now.
I still don’t know what exactly Hank does. He doesn’t have any power, isin’t involved in any baseball operations, doesn’t show up at the stadium, didn’t go to Murcer’s memorial, etc.
Why was he even given title of owner? What exactly does he do outside of making outrageous statements? It’s not like he even wanted the job, he was on a horse farm for 20 years when George asked him to take over and he refused. Did George feel that Hal would be too conservative and wanted Hank to be there incase Hal wasn’t doing all he could to win? Otherwise, I see no explanation why he was assigned an ownership position.
SJ is over the top today.. so many failures blah blah blah.
The ydid not pay however much was needed to sign 16 yr old pitcher Inoa and COle fell thru the world is coming to an end etc.
Injuries are no excuse but let’s take a step back.. Joba and Wang are hurt one guy is 22 and the other is 28 or so and got hurt running.. That is there #1 starter going into the season and the golden child..If they were healthy there rotation is very good. Melancon will be on the scene next year to help the pen.
The problem is the offense and they will have many options in the off season because they will not have; abreu and Giambi for sure… that is 2 postions and they should trade either Damon or Matsui one of them… IF they do that they will get some talent in that move and Nady lays RF and they need to get a 1B.. If Jorge cannot catch I say trade Matsui and play Jorge at DH and 1B and put Damon in LF and trade Matsui for prospects or players..
Is that really the end of the world and i think look into trading Cano if it makes sense. If they trade Cano they may be able to solve the CF situation or get astop gap solution until Ajax is ready.. Again Giambi is not productive, Abreu’s #’s are not as good as they look, and Matsui has been hurt 1/3 of the year.
Look at there production for the season at catcher, CF, and 2B.. Those positions have been terrible, that is one of the reasons for the terrible offensive prodcution.. Giabi is done…….
RSM….there are no reasonable replacements available at 2nd base…on the market or in the system. Filling one spot with a patch at second is no answer. Pitching can be filled in the FA market. What sense does trading away Cano to fill in with a center fielder who doesn’t produce to Cano’s level. Is it just to look like they are trying to do something? If Gardner can’t do the job out there, Christian certainly can. Christian can provide as much in offense as Cabrera did before this season (you know…when he was the “spark plug to the team”)? Moving Cano makes no more sense than letting Abreu go and having no replacement for him.
Damon is the most logical player to move. NYY can’t lose Cano, Giambi and Abreu and expect a better offense than this year’s. There is absolutely no guarantee that a Teixeira will sign with NYY. In fact, I would bet he doesn’t.
I LOVE LAMP!!!
Call me stupid or naive, but I think if a kid signs an agent, not just any agent, but Scott Boras, I would assume the kid has the intention of at least negotiating. If negotiations open, there is a chance. Cole had Scott Boras and then refused to negotiate. I don’t know – what signs did the Yankees miss?
Also, the Yankees know they are a couple of seasons away from their farm system being truly able to feed the major league team. It was never going to happen right away. And this year’s SWB is hopefully the last of the AAA teams to offer very little in terms of being able to help the parent club. Trenton has a couple of kids who are promising and then on down the line, hopefully increasing each year as player development continues to grow.
I can’t dispute what more knowledgeable people say about the farm system, and perhaps the Yankees have had more of their share of things going wrong this season in all arenas, but I don’t think they rated their farm system – others did that – and it was rated pretty good at the beginning of the season.
It’s been an awful season, certainly far below all of our expectations. But so far they are an above .500 team, even with all the adversity. I know, it means nothing. But let’s not let our collective disappointment color EVERYTHING black. There are some bright spots, and there are some shades of grey, and nothing is unfixable, though it may take time and patience (a commodity that’s in short supply).
Drive 4-5: absolutely. Having been a Yankees fan for a very long time, I think the Yankees should have the best and the brightest in the FO and in player development, and that the apparent breakdowns that led to this disappointing season should not have happened. It’s not an issue of whining or entitlement. No one is guaranteed the playoffs. But it seems like some people who should have known better really dropped the ball in lots of areas with this team this year.
If the Yanks don’t retain Cashman, I recommend Chris Antonetti who is the Assistant GM of the Indians. He grew up in the area is young and smart and would be a good fit. No one has been better with player development than the Indians over the past few years.
I hope when Carl Pavano shows up tomorrow in Camden Yards he runs into the Yankees club house yelling “PORKCHOP SANDWICHES!”
** What signs except perhaps that the kid was a jerk, that is.
The thing about Cole is, we get 2 first round picks next season too, and if we continue to lose like we have been, it could be protected. Plus if Abreu, Giambi, Marte, Pettitte, Pudge, etc are gone and type A/B free agents, that is a lot of draft picks we would get.
Sturat – I agree.
I’m not sure what happened with that Inoa kid, and given all the unknowns about Latin America (the land of the floating birthdate and hype), I don’t think any of us on the outside-looking-in will ever know the facts of the case. Therefore, drawing conclusions, let alone saying the sky is falling, is a bit silly. (He was 16, right, we think? The savior?)
I don’t agree with all the moves you mentioned, but I do think it’s time to cut Jason, and Abreu (he’s not getting any younger or better). I think Matsui is staying, because he can still hit, and there may be some money to be gained because of the fan interest in Japan (I don’t know that end of it, obviously). If Damon can be part of a good deal, then, like Robbie Cano, it wouldn’t surprise me if he went, also.
Yes, there will be a lot of turnover, and there’s always uncertainty and risk, but I don’t think the sky is falling.
I totally disagree Peter. First of all for $45 million Pavano can at least play till he gets hurt again and second it give Phil more time which can only help him.
ellen,
Right on. These are the Yankees we’re talking about, not the Houston Astros. You win 26 World Championships by hiring only the best and brightest both on the field and off. We’re not spoiled. We’ve seen how successful teams are built and we expect there to be leadership that follows the blueprint.
Getting rid of giambi and abreu and others can help the offense for next year.. they actually can be better with less it happens all the time, addition by subtraction..
for the 5 millionth time they need to get more athletic. last night the bloop hit between damon and abreu in the first or 2nd inning, that is caught by almost every other outfield in baseball it happens all the time.. the Yanks do not commit a lot of errors but as a team they have bad range.. Giambi is hitting 250, I take less HR’s and more contact any day of the week at all the positions..
If they use some of there excess pen arms, damon or matsui, in trades they can absolutely help the offense a ton with out signing Texiera…
“The thing about Cole is, we get 2 first round picks next season too, and if we continue to lose like we have been, it could be protected. Plus if Abreu, Giambi, Marte, Pettitte, Pudge, etc are gone and type A/B free agents, that is a lot of draft picks we would get.”
well, you get one pick for Cole not signing, which is protected no matter what.
the draft pick from this season will be forfeited should the yankees sign a type-a FA, unless they finish in the top 15 picks.
all the other potential picks they get are based on offering FAs arbitration, and them declining and signing elsewhere. those picks come from the team they sign with, and are protected, too.
Hughes needs more time. I know everyone wants to revert back to his game in Tex or last September but it’s just not enough of a body of work.
Just look at Buchholz. He threw a no hitter and is now in AA. Sometimes things can just go right in a game for a pitcher.
Hughes can have great stuff but you have to look at his injury issues the past two season. He needs some time in AAA to get himself back together. Both physically and mentally.
While his stuff might be good enough for the majors he has to learn how to use it more. Guys like Moose and Pettitte know how to pitch. That’s why they can do what they can do.
Younger guys like Joba get by because they have super dominating stuff. While I dont see Hughes as a control pitcher, I don’t think he can depend on having super over powering stuff like Joba.
His injuries the past two seasons have been set backs. He should spend the rest of this season in AAA.
He should also start out AAA next year and pitch down there for a while. I wouldn’t be against seeing him up at some point but in no way should he be in the rotation out of camp.
“and they will have many options in the off season because they will not have; abreu and Giambi for sure”
Are you privy to some authority or information about which we’re not aware?
Your comments bespeaks the same certitude of the posters last night you described as “morons” and “pea brains” because they re-visited the reported trade offer of Santana for Hughes, Melky, Marquez, and Hilligoss– a discussion you lambasted as idle speculation because none of us could possibly know whom and what the Yankees front-office discussed with Minnesota.
I’m amused that you however know the Yankees plan not to re-sign Abreu or Giambi though. Do you and Brian sip chardonay together out on East Hampton?
I see little reason in people counting on much from Aceves. He’s 26 years old and has been a AA pitcher for years. The Mexican League may be classified as a AAA league, but, it’s the lowest wrung of AAA. It’s more of a AA league. The Yanks may be able to schooker some unsuspecting team into taking him as part of a deal, but, I don’t see him ammounting to much.
On the other hand, Pat Venditte, 24 games, 17 saves and 1-0 record will be interesting to watch, as will Addison Maruszak, SS at Staten Island.
Why are all of you so quick to get rid of Abreu?
Have you forgotten that he’s our best, most consistent hitter this season? He leads the team in RBI’s, has nearly a .300 batting average, and has the most 2 strike hits in the league. Also, he’s 2nd only behind Damon in batting average with 2 outs and RISP. In fact, Abreu hits well with RISP in general.
So by your logic, we will “add by subtracting” when we have a weakness of hitting with RISP and subtract one of our BEST hitters, not only in general, but in that spot? I don’t see how that would help the team at all.
Abreu has been good all 3 years here. What more could you expect from him? He statistically is among the top right fielders defensively and very good offensively.
Giambi, on the other hand, can walk for all I care. With bad defense, hitting .200 with RISP, and doing nothing all season besides June, who cares? But Abreu? No way. He’s our most consistent, clutch hitter right now.
the Yankees have won 26 World Championships. But they have also gone through periods of drought. They Yankees are what, 100 years old or so, give or take? So they’ve NOT won the World Series more than they have. And they’ve had good, incredible, dynasty runs, and they have had periods of mediocrity or worse.
What distinguishes the Yankees is that they do have that success and always strive to get back there.
I just have one more thought regarding the disappointing season we are having. Do people think that Boston fans are particularly happy with where they are this season? They are in second place and while they are leading the WC chase thus far, it’s not a slam dunk. Ellsbury and Buccholz (sp.) have not done as well as expected. It’s not perfect up there, either.
And it’s also good to remember that because the Yankees have been in the playoffs for oh these many years, they do not get the best draft picks to begin with. They are in a situation where they have to entertain high risk players. Would you all trade 14 consecutive years of a playoff appearance for a better slot in the draft?
And what about the Atlanta Braves? They have a baseball genius for a manager, and as far as I am aware, they also had up until recently a genius GM. After years of finishing first in the AL East, where have they been the last couple of seasons?
It happens. It’s baseball.
I could not agree more. Pavano will go and pitch a 2 hitter, go 4-0 to end the season. Then Cashman will throw him 8 million a year for 3 years. He’ll pitch opening day and throw his back out for the rest of the year. Why give this guy any chance to improve his marketabilty? So we can pay him more of course! He should pitch for free next year for Scranton.
He wasn’t running the draft until 2005. Those previouse drafts most of them Bob Watson/Stick but the post 95 Era was Lin Garrett.
Garrett was the Yankees Scouting Director from December 1995 through July 2004
2005 Oppenheimer took over the helm in his short span of 3 yrs. he’s done more than Garrett did in 9 yrs of incompetance.
Dillon: and he should be in charge of grilling the hotdogs on his off days, too!
Drive,
Nothing cracks me up more than folks playing the “spoiled Yankee Fan” card when having logical discussions about this team.
Unless of course, folks don’t think this is a bad season. If that’s the case, nothing can be said to help you.
Ellen,
My own opinion is, Hughes’ hamstring injury was a lot more severe than the Yankees have ever let on. I think it messed up his delivery in a big way.
I believe that’s why he lost the feel for his curveball and why his velocity dropped.
He is just getting back to looking like the kid that had everybody excited two years ago.
My contention is, why rush him AGAIN to the majors? What does that accomplish?
Keep him in AAA for the rest of this year and for as long as it takes for him to completely develop as a pitcher. If that’s until July of 2009? So be it? September of 2009? So be it. 2010? So be it.
Rconn brought up Homer Bailey. What an excellent example.
Go back and read about the scouting reports on Homer Bailey. They were off the charts. Look at him now. He’s a mess.
I don’t want to see the Yankees make the same mistake with Phil Hughes. That’s not player development. That’s ruining a prospect.
As far as Cashman is concerned, I don’t want to see him leave. However, if he is back next year, he needs help in the front office. Especially, evaluating major league pitching prospects.
Way too many misses for it to be allowed any longer. If he is back, surround him with talented people. If that is not to his liking then, painful as it may be, you have to move on with the rebuilding plan without him.
Nobody, not Brian Cashman, not Derek Jeter, ARod, even Hank and Hal, are bigger than the NY Yankees. If you want the players to play for the NY crest, then the front office has to do the same thing.
No one person is going to fix this team. If egos are such that any person demands its just him or else, he goes. No matter who that person may be.
You can be the biggest Yankee homer in the world but, if you don’t see that the organization has made some pretty serious mistakes in important areas this year, you are too blinded by fandom to be objective.
Put it to you another way, no matter how flawed and injured this team may be, is it REALLY less talented than Toronto and Tampa? Take Boston out of the equation for the moment. Do you really think this is a fourth place team.
How about the White Sox and Twins? Do they really have more talent than the Yankees? I don’t think so.
Put it to you another way, if you owned the Yankees, wouldn’t you want to review everything in your organization to make sure a year like this doesn’t happen again?
Wouldn’t you want to KNOW the people you have in place are the right people to fix what’s broken?
Wouldn’t you want to know if you need to make changes, you want to surround yourself with the brightest and most talented people in your industry. Especially when money (ie: salaries, budgets, etc) is not an impediment?
These are basic, fundamental questions every business has when they have a bad year. Its not out of bounds to ask them of the Yankees.
Has some of it been bad luck? Yes. Has all, or most of it? Absolutely not.
If you want to fix it, you have to ask the tough questions and be ready to have the right answers to those questions.
That’s going to be the challenge for Hal because he, not Hank, will be running this franchise.
I agree with Stuart, I’m sick of hearing about “power positions” like 1B, LF, RF. “He doesn’t have enough power to play right field” blah, blah, blah. Let’s get players who hit decently for average but are above average on the field. Damon has a noodle for an arm, Abreu is afraid of the wall, and Giambi is a statue at first.
I was reading that the Yanks are 24th in the majors in converting balls in play into outs. 24TH!!!! Get people who are actually athletic. And let’s limit the contracts to 5 years, no 6-8 years and 100 million + for CC or Tex. Go for Burnett, trade for someone like Adam Wainwright, and trade for someone like Connor Jackson. Don’t break the bank on players who will break down in 4 years.
Pavano most likely will not be resigned by NYY at any cost, but, setting him up for a minor leage trade in the next 8 days is a real possibility. LA Dodgers, NY Mets, White Sox, Cubs, Philadelphia and even Tampa all need a starter. If he does well in two starts, I’d look for a minorf league deal being made, unless NYY pulls off a miracle run during that time.
Another thing that pisses me off is when Garrett gets credit for Jairo Heredia and Jesus Montero, this is not true that was all Carlos Rios and Abel Gomez who were both fired this year.
I’ll get CC and go get a guy like Casey Blake or Mike Jacobs have him keep the spot warm until Jesus arrives to take 1B.
Nice information SJ, unfortunately I think i’m going to be sick after reading it. Very sobering.
I feel much more comfortorable with Brett in the lineup. Johnny’s arm ALREADY cost us a game! With Brett in the lineup we are 2-1 BUT without Brett we are 1-2. Johnny and Matsui can take turns playing DH and keep brett in centerfield. In these games our defense really matters.
The only two Yankees games I am going to all year, and who am I gonna see pitch? Carl Pavano and Darrel Rasner! O man…..
I sure didn’t think I would be seeing those two pitch when I bought these tickets in like February lol.
Doreen,
I agree with most of what you are saying. The Yankees have had low draft picks, but they certainly should have at least one prospect in AAA.
You dont have to draft high to draft well,you just need to do your due dilligence. Also, the international market is always available to a team like the Yankees. The Yankees are old and lacking prospects. That scenario screams speaks for itself about the organization’s lack of leadership and focus.
The way I look at is Pavano is a good pitcher when he’s “healthy.” If he’s healthy, he might be able to make a strong contribution toward the playoff run and he’s more ready at this point than Hughes who could use at least one more start in the minors after his last start.
Everyone is giving up on this season a little too early. I agree that they aren’t playing well and it would be hard to expect much in the playoffs even if they did make it. But I don’t think you want the organization to throw the cards in yet. I’ll put a little different spin on it than Pete does. Yes, the Yankees have to win alot more games to get to 91 wins than the redsox do. However, they are six games behind the redsox with 6 head to head games left. If they sweep the redsox in those six games, they just have to win one more to have the better record. Its doable, even if I don’t have confidence in this team to do it. If they can, they are likely going to need both Pavano and Hughes. Give Hughes another start in the minors to tune up and let Pavano start Saturday.
If they cut Pavano out of spite and not wanting to give him a platform to showcase his abilities for next year, someone else would give him the chance. Maybe the twins who we are still competing against for the wildcard. He’s still on payroll, let him contribute if he can.
If the Yankees were in the race, I’d could at least root for Pavano because it would benefit them.
But I can’t root for Pavano to succeed as an individual player
Unlike the Sheffield contract, the Yankees can’t even exercise Pavano’s $13 million option and then trade him. I bet if he pitched well there’d be some team out there desperate enough to take Pavano for one-year at $13 million.
Pavano has a no-trade clause, so the Yankees get nothing for him. I’m not even sure they receive a compensatory draft pick because he hasn’t pitched for four years.
SJ
As I asked earlier, in regards to baseball ops and player development, do you know the name of the guy who runs the Sawx drafts?
I’ve read that he is a fast and up incoming baseball guy.
Do these guys have allegiances’ to teams like some players and fans do or is just business as usual for them?
Doreen,
Drafting low hasn’t hurt the Red Sox in the draft.
When you draft lower, it really only hurts you in the first round. That’s why you can’t miss on first rounders. They have been signed no matter what.
After the first round, for teams like the Yankees who have no issues about paying over slot for players, you can have productive drafts.
As Drive said, its a matter of doing your due diligence and getting the job done.
The draft position is really not an excuse for the lack of position players in the organization above Charleston. That was from years of draft incompetence (to be fair, prior to Oppenheimer’s reign) and the mistaken belief free agency can solve all your problems.
If you say the Yankees have more talent, then you’d also have to say that that talent underperformed. The Yankees (Cashman, et al) depended on the talent to do their jobs and they haven’t. There were very few remedies that could be made once it became apparent that the results were not going to there this season. No trade clauses for one thing.
I also think that the Yankees front office did not really expect them to win this season, despite what is said. I think the moves they made (or didn’t) with regard to the bench speak volumes. They wanted to get players who would not require long-term resources from the team. Because in order to clean house, which I think they are doing (as quickly as those long-term, no-trade contracts will allow), you can’t then re-clutter with new stuff that you know is “just for now.” What they hoped for was that the old stuff had enough to make the Yankees contenders even while this was going on. It didn’t work. Too much didn’t go according to plan, nor according to plan B, and the players were unable to “kick it up a notch,” whether it was injuries, age, or the nefarious “heart” or lack thereof.
Regarding some of the ARod bashing…
A lot of the same old “he can’t do anything in the clutch,” stuff…
It’s interesting that whether or not a situation is considered “clutch” or not depends almost entirely on whether or not ARod gets a big or not.
When he comes up with all those walkoffs last year, it’s because “it’s only April”… But let him strike out in one of those same situations, and it’s proof that he “can’t hit in the clutch.”
Same thing with the rest of this year… Whenever he hits, it will be because the Yankees were out of it, and whenever he doesn’t… well, you know what’s coming.
Brandon, B. Laird will be playing first base before Montero, unless they they get stupid and trade Laird. The only other way Montero takes first base is by moving Laird to the outfield. Third base is not his best position and there are too many in his way. He’s a legitimate power hitter for average. He doesn’t walk much, but, he doesn’t strike out much, either. I can see Montero without a true position, though. Filling in as a catcher, playing some first base and a lot of DHing.
I feel much more comfortorable with Brett in the lineup. Johnny’s arm ALREADY cost us a game! With Brett in the lineup we are 2-1 BUT without Brett we are 1-2. Johnny and Matsui can take turns playing DH and keep brett in centerfield. In these games our defense really matters.
Hey like everyone here said
OFFENSE >>>> DEFENSE
I don’t agree w/ it, but they realize how wrong they were when it’s too late. Damon in CF has already cost us a series now we get the hungry O’s who will be teeing off to CF.
Trish I’m still waiting for your apology on this one hun
So SJ44, then you’ve got to allow (not “you” in particular, the generic “you”) time for that development and it’s not fair to expect things overnight. I think it’s a good thing that they’ve recognized the failures and I wholeheartedly agree that perhaps the more important things the Yankees can accomplish this off-season will have to do with filling out the “front office” with better personnel, including scouts and whoever else is responsible for player evaluation/development.
GB the thing here is the progress of Cervelli and Romine and now Higashioka in GCL who will most likely be in A ball next year. You just can’t waste Jesus as a C his bat is too good to minimize his consistant power.
200 million dollar payroll and we are talking about Carl Pavano. Enough said. Even a dieheart like me has to concede, this season is over. Cashman should be fired, get rid of all these aging overpaid players and rebuild around Wang and Chamberlain.
The diffrence Pete, is that you have given up on the seaeson, Yankee managemnet has not.
JeffNJ, what a good observation. Sometimes the most simply stated things are in reality the most profound.
Yankee management has not given up on the season.
During the day I really don’t have a lot of time to read posts so I tend to do a really fast cursory “fly through”. And I do pick up some nuggets of gold when I do, like the above, and they do sustain me.
The way I process losing streaks, and bad games (especially this late in the season and not being in our customary first place) is with a mixture of inner sadness that almost borders on giving me a flat affect. For whatever that’s worth. Yankee wins and losses, in an overall sense, spill over into my “other” life. Maybe other people witness this same thing?
Anyway, I appreciate being able to come here and read through posts during non-game time, because there tends to be a more stable crowd posting and I don’t have to be regaled with hatred and stupidity – both directed and tangential! And it helps give me some balance. So thanks everyone for that.
I feel a mixture of sad and flat. Will a Yankee win help things? I hope so. I’m sure a Yankee loss won’t! And thanks to posters who point out that the Sux have their own set of woes. I lose sight of that fact sometimes and that is always something that can perk me up!!!
GO YANKEES!!!
(I sometimes think it’s smart to lay low during losses since some people tend to get almost violent and any modicum of proffered optimism or hope tends to set them off even more; I haven’t been able to bring myself to do it since I seem to need to be with the club membership – the lohud fans – more than be away from them. But I guess if things get tight enough I might just stop posting for a while – I’ll lurk but I won’t post. That’s as much for my own sanity as it is to try to keep the level of angst as low as possible.)
I have always wondered with all the money that the Yankees have, and once the New Stadium opens, even more money, how they do not have the best run farm system and personnel in all of baseball.
Vader,
Its really a collaborative effort in Boston. Ben Cherington, Craig Shipley and Jed Hoyer are Theo’s right hand men. They brought in Allard Baird after he got canned by the Royals. He’s a very good baseball guy. A guy, IMO, the Yankees should have hired when he hit the market.
David Howard and Brian O’Halloran are also very competent hands in baseball ops.
Simply put, they have more talented bodies than what’s present in the Yankees organization at this time.
That allows for disagreements on players and a healthy give and take. As opposed to one or two guys making all the decisions.
Are they loyal only to the Red Sox? Not necessarily. Everybody wants to advance in their careers.
If the opportunity presented itself for these guys to go elsewhere in better positions, they would do it.
Theo is also in the last year of his deal in Boston. I think all of his counterparts in the front office are going to sit tight and see what happens with him before deciding their own situations.
Cervelli, I don’t think will be any more than a Molina type backup. He’s no full-time catcher. Romine’s defense is not what NYY thought it would be, but, his offense is better. A lot of errors and passed balls this year. So far, Montero has been the better defensive catcher. His offense has been just short of spectacular for an 18 year old. If he stops growing, he could make it as a big league catcher, but, I think you’re looking at a Carlos Delgado type body.
“Trish I’m still waiting for your apology on this one hun”
Brandon, you must have sensed my powerful presence since this is the first time I’ve been able to check in today and I was writing a post when you must have posted yours!
Let me say two things and then I have to “attend to” the person who just showed up for a meeting and will return when I can!
1. I have absolutely no respect for brettisgod since he never bothered showing up for games when his AAA boy didn’t get in the lineup. That would be like me abandoning as soon as Kyle was traded to the Tigers. Real fans don’t only show up when things are going their way.
2. I see the need to keep Damon’s bat and Matsui at DH, so how Girardi works that magic remains to be seen. No question Damon is hurting us in the field. I actually wondered to myself how many runs he cost us last night. I have to think it wasn’t enough to make a difference in the game. And then how many did he get for us. Anyway I have always treasured defense over offense, especially in CF. But I had to moderate my stance when our offense was the major problem.
Best I can say right now. Be back soon as I can.
GO YANKEES!
I don’t have a problem with Pavano pitching Saturday on a personal level. If the guy can pitch why not. I do have a problem with it on a common sense level. How are you going to pitch a guy who hasn’t pitched any meaningful games in lord knows how long based on 5 minor league starts? You can’t possibly tell me he’s the most qualified of all their minor league pitchers; no freakin way. This smells of typical Cashman trying to justify bad signings by forcing overpaid veterans onto the starting lineup when they’re not ready or worthy. Casman has really lost alot of his luster these last few years with his bad baseball decisions. I think it’s time for the organization to move in another direction.
Stick Michael actually spoke very highly of Gardner on Kellerman’s show yesterday.
The problem is the Yankees can’t afford the luxury of a Brett Butler-type CF unless they had power in their corner outfield positions.
i’m telling ya. For next year, I’m starting to persuade myself I like the idea of Johhny Damon becoming the 1B for the last year of his contract, if the Yankees can’t sign Teixiera.
Damon’s going to be a productive bat for another couple of years, certainly for 2009 anyway. They just need a guy who hits for more power as the DH.
Atleast you come w/ it Trish. I’ll be back too right now I got some people at this office that need work done.
Tidrow — it’s definitely time to move in another direction.
Allard Baird is someone the Yankees missed out on? The guy who built that great Kansas City Royals franchise everyone is running afraid of? Give me a break. Yeah he knows his baseball, he really made some crafty move selling all his bigtime players for pennies on the dollar but making sure he kept Mike Sweeney around, and developing great prospects like Angel Berroa and…
But yeah, I’m sure he really knows his baseball.
Trisha –
If you feel the need to detail your emotional state – can you find somewhere else to do it? Really we don’t need to hear these totally self-obsessed musings. It is a Yankees blog – not a Trisha blog.
“During the day I really don’t have a lot of time to read posts so I tend to do a really fast cursory “fly throughâ€. And I do pick up some nuggets of gold when I do, like the above, and they do sustain me.
The way I process losing streaks, and bad games (especially this late in the season and not being in our customary first place) is with a mixture of inner sadness that almost borders on giving me a flat affect. For whatever that’s worth. Yankee wins and losses, in an overall sense, spill over into my “other†life. Maybe other people witness this same thing?
Anyway, I appreciate being able to come here and read through posts during non-game time, because there tends to be a more stable crowd posting and I don’t have to be regaled with hatred and stupidity – both directed and tangential! And it helps give me some balance. So thanks everyone for that.
I feel a mixture of sad and flat. Will a Yankee win help things? I hope so. I’m sure a Yankee loss won’t! And thanks to posters who point out that the Sux have their own set of woes. I lose sight of that fact sometimes and that is always something that can perk me up!!!
GO YANKEES!!!
(I sometimes think it’s smart to lay low during losses since some people tend to get almost violent and any modicum of proffered optimism or hope tends to set them off even more; I haven’t been able to bring myself to do it since I seem to need to be with the club membership – the lohud fans – more than be away from them. But I guess if things get tight enough I might just stop posting for a while – I’ll lurk but I won’t post. That’s as much for my own sanity as it is to try to keep the level of angst as low as possible.)
Melkys’ showing signs of life at Scranton. The kid didn’t mope and has gone down there and has shown the skills that got him to the big leagues in the first place. I still believe Melky and Gardner will be heard from next year in the Yankee outfield. Forget about trades or free agents for the outfield in 2009. The best men for the job are staring them right in the face!
SJ44 asks, about Hank and Hal: Organizations generally reflect the leadership at the top. Where do you rank them?
Hank and Hal are novices at their jobs, like Girardi, Thompson and Eiland. Or like Joba, Hughes and Kennedy. They have a lot to learn and we have a long way to go before we can evaluate them in a meaningful way.
NYY is largely in the hands of beginners.
How could anyone be surprised when they make a lot of mistakes?
Or could it be that some people are just enjoying the chance to emote, in what someone above referred to as High School Drama Class?
Doreen,
The unique thing about a baseball front office is it works within a parallel universe. You have the parent club on one end and player development on the other.
Both have to work at the same time. Even though each domain may have very little intersection with one another on a daily basis during the season.
On the parent club side, you are correct, there is no way Brian Cashman, or anybody connected with the Yankees, could have foreseen the offense falling apart. That’s not on him, IMO. That’s on the players.
He even tried to rectify it at the deadline by getting Nady. He’s been great. The guys around him? Not so much.
I also agree the Yankees didn’t see this season as “the year to win it all” despite public proclaimations to the contrary.
If they did, they wouldn’t have given 40% of their rotation spots to rookies. If they had the feeling they wanted to exit Yankee Stadium “with a bang”, LeTroy Hawkins wouldn’t have been the lone “big” off-season acquisition.
Where Cashman has a problem is on the player development side.
Every real pitching prospect in the organization, except for McAllister and Melancon, has spent time on the DL this year. That’s not good.
The draft? We have been over it all day. Not good.
International signings? Not good.
Its one thing to have a bad year with the parent club. At some point, that happens to everybody in the game.
The problem is, that parallel universe (player development) thing.
You can’t have a bad year on the parent club level AND the player development side. That’s the problem. Especially when you are now emphasizing player development as a focal point in the organization. Which, Cashman (correctly) is.
The other issue is, Cashman is in the last year of his deal. The Steinbrenner’s (well, Hal really) have to decide:
1. Is he the right guy for the job?
2. If he is the right guy, is his plan sound?
3. If he is the right guy for the job, does he need more help and who (he or Cashman) makes the call as to who to bring in?
4. If you deem he is not the right guy for the job, who is his replacement and how does that affect the plan in place?
That’s the thing. While Cashman has correctly identified the Yankees issues, his contractual status, as well as some of the things that have happened within the organization this year, makes it tough to evaluate him at the present time.
Based on what I know about the business of baseball, if I had to make a decision, I would retain Cashman under the proviso they add two “right hands” to his organization. One, he picks, the other Hal picks. They have to come from outside the organization.
Good, solid baseball people with strong opinions and creative ideas.
Money isn’t an object to bringing in these guys. I don’t want them to be PC. They don’t even have to like one another. In fact, I’d prefer they don’t. There is a lot to be said for creative tension in sports.
Go back and look at dynasties. The Yankees, the Bulls, the Patriots. Lots of creative tension in those front offices.
Their SOLE GOAL has to be to make the New York Yankees better. That’s it. Make it about TEAM and not about any one person or player. NOBODY who draws a NY Yankee paycheck is above the team. That has to be the mantra.
That’s what Stick and Buck did when George got bounced the second time and they were in charge. Guess what? It worked.
Why re-invent the wheel? Why not go back to what worked in the past?
We (the fans/media) complain the players are too “me” oriented. Even Michael Kay, who is around the team often, has talked about how something is “missing” (in terms of closeness) with this group.
Andy Pettitte didn’t deny it in his interview with Kay yesterday.
I’ve seen some of what Kay is talking about myself in some of the games and road trips I’ve been on this year.
If what Kay (and others) are saying is correct, that attitude has to change. First from the front office and have it go down to the team.
Once it does, this thing can get back on track pretty quick.
If they are in denial? It will take longer to fix, IMO.
“Michael Kay, who is around the team often, has talked about how something is “missing†(in terms of closeness) with this group.”
Michael Kay also has an agenda.
SJ,
Without blowing too much smoke up your ass, you are by far the most insightful and engaging commenter on LoHud. You say exactly what I’m thinking in pretty much every comment you leave.
Any chance you’d ever start a Yankee blog of your own? I think you’d quickly be able to generate a huge readership.
The Latin American scouts were fired for skimming signing bonuses, right? I don’t think it has anything to do with their scouting. It isn’t representative of a potential off-season shake-up in any way.
Pags has faith in the American Idle
God help us all. And WTF is Rick Peterson talking about w. Fatman Slim
I don’t know if I am comfortable with Pavano starting tomorrow on such short rest. 502 days might not be enough, so they may want to consider waiting another week. Let’s not push the guy. The good news, at least, is that they could push him a little, as he wouldn’t be slated to start again until 1/7/2010 (Winter League)…
SJ, Very astute observation regarding Cashman and the need for two consultant type assistants….The idae of Ownership selecting one of the two is excellent…I’d like to see the Buck back with the Organization…..Outstanding baseball guy…
For the first time in 15 years, the Orioles ar looking forward to playing the Yankees.
They will be lucky to limp out of Baltimore with one win.
Seriously? – good point! Sometimes I even bore myself. So here’s what I do when that happens. You might want to do the same thing and save yourself a lot of trouble, angst, whatever (by the way I do this with other posts at times also. I don’t want you to think I’m only into self rejection!) When I don’t want to read what I have posted, I just scroll on by! Do the same!
Seriously? Seriously!
Bye now.
i read the blog pretty regularly but man, sj44 you are really a pontificating annoying pain in the a$$, the funny part is, on a baseball level, i agree with alot of what you say. but the length, tone, and overall obnoxious knowitallness of your posts make me completely ignore them now.
i know your older but you need to find a woman at this point in your life just to keep you in check, bc you must make people scatter when you enter a room. a good woman will place a hand on your shoulder and let you know when your inner cliff clavin is coming out full force.
you are that frigging annoying.
Andrew,
He worked for David Glass. One of the worst owners in baseball.
The day he got fired, he had 4 job offers waiting for him from teams. He is very highly regarded in baseball circles because he is a very solid baseball man.
You know how you evaluate baseball people? By the number of job offers they get when they get fired.
Bill Bavasi got fired this year by the Mariners. He has had ZERO job offers. That gives you a window into how the industry feels about him.
People in baseball know what teams have solid ownership, bad ownership, and somewhere in between.
Baird’s presence with the Red Sox has been a plus. Currently, the Yankees have nobody in their front office with his experience at all levels of an organization.
If you think that’s a plus, you couldn’t be more incorrect.
The Yankees do have a weird team dynamic, half the team consists of veteran All-Stars polishing their resumes for their next contract and/or the Hall of Fame, and the other half are scrubs/prospects from the scrap heap or the Scranton Express trying to claw their way into a permanent gig in the big leagues. I guess it’s not surprising that most of the players then, are all about “me.”
Brandon did you read this comment
I replied, but it hasn’t appeared yet. That guy obviously hasn’t watched any Yankee games.
sj: “I’ve seen some of what Kay is talking about myself in some of the games and road trips I’ve been on this year.”
Are you a Yank employee? Just how close are you to the team? Would you consider a front office job with the Yanks? Are you already in the front office with the Yanks?
Seem to know an awful lot…
“i read the blog pretty regularly but man, sj44 you are really a pontificating annoying pain in the a$$, the funny part is, on a baseball level, i agree with alot of what you say. but the length, tone, and overall obnoxious knowitallness of your posts make me completely ignore them now.
i know your older but you need to find a woman at this point in your life just to keep you in check, bc you must make people scatter when you enter a room. a good woman will place a hand on your shoulder and let you know when your inner cliff clavin is coming out full force.”
MAN, WOMEN LIKE YOU MAKE ME WISH I WAS A FULL-THROATED, UNABASHED, VIRULENT MISOGYNIST.
Simple solution. Don’t read the posts.
No problem on the women front. Thanks for your concern though.
Since you change your name just about everyday to take shots at me, I think you are probably the one in need of female assistance.
Think about it. To have to change your screen name this much to take shots at someone on a baseball blog. Doesn’t seem like normal behavior to me.
Trisha,
We are on opposite ends of the fence in terms of team allegiance, but I just have to say your posts are never boring!!!
They may drive me crazy and I may have a totally different take on things…..but boring……NEVER.
On a different note, I didn’t post the other night because it was during one of the Yankee games. But there were a couple guys that were being totally obnoxious in their comments about women.
This blog would be much the poorer if there were no women posting on here.
It doesn’t matter if the Yanks have young talent they won’t us it.
This high powered offense has gotten old, their decline in hitting, as well as defense, should suggest, they need a make-over.
They should also decide what type of baseball, they want to play.
Mathematically there is still a shot this year, however they have not changed their style of play since late May.
I doubt they will now, I guess they feel they don’t have the personnel to change thier style of play.
The pitcher’s this year have been good enough to be 8 games better in our win column, but our style of play and poor defense have cost us.
Yanks till the end, maybe we are seeing a changing of the guard in Pinstipes. I love the Yanks, I only can hope they can pull this off, if not I would like to thank them for the great ride.
SJ44 is your obsessive stalker a woman or a man? Either way, it’s ugly, twisted, repugnant human being.
sj44, get over yourself. i blogged on this site about 4 months ago. i know some people take potshots at you, and some of them are boneheads no doubt but i have never engaged you or anyone on the blog.
and i dont read your posts anymore because you are annoying to the maximum. its a shame bc you have decent knowledge and things to say but the style of your discussion is a turn off and the whole point of spending your time on here is to convince people that you are correct or to learn from others where you are deficient. your abrasive style inhibits this from occuring. im just trying to save you from yourself, much like you are trying to save cashman from himself. no?
ps Kill Schill, there is nothing mysogynistic about saying that a good woman stops us from being a jackass, it works with my girlfriend and for many other men. women make us better people.
If you don’t read SJ’s posts “anymore,” how do you know he’s being a blowhard? Maybe he’s posting haiku. Or his shopping lists. Posting to complain about posts you don’t read? Too much time on someone’s hands.
Clearly you still read the posts. Or, you wouldn’t be so “brave” as to change your blog name while taking shots at me.
The one thing people like yourself fail to come to grips with is, no matter how many shots you take at me, its never going to change what I write.
So, pardon me if I don’t take your “advice” about what to post or not post. It ain’t happenin’.
The sooner you come to grips with that, and actually do what you incorrectly state you do (not read the posts) the better off you will be.
If you have baseball opinions to contribute to the blog, let’s hear them. If you are just hear to take shots at me, while you may impress yourself with them, it doesn’t add anything to the discussion here.
because ellen, you nitwit, i scan them. i only have to read a few select lines out of the 150+ per post to know the guys being annoying. sometimes its easier, like i can tell your annoying after only 5 lines. see?
I cannot even imagine the life one must have to stalk another blogger and spend the time to berate him. Dude you really need to take 5 and find a life.
sj44,
i honestly think you need an outside adviser take an objective look at your blogs and give you 100% neutral feedback on how they were constructed this year, bc obviously its not working when you have a large portion of the readers think you are a pricc.
if you are able to put the blog above your own ego and have someone come in and help you evaluate and assess your posts then it will be worth staying with you the remaining 38 games. but i still wont be positive as you cant really guage a blogger by their performance in september or the spring.
unless you can provide evidence that you have not only empowered an outsider, say the buck showalter of blogging?, i think you have to take a break and reassess. remember, their is no ego here, just the blog.
your seeming inability to take constructive criticism, leads me to believe, that you are like cashman and are not ready to be the sole decision maker.
And I can tell that you don’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re” and you have yet to learn how to capitalize or use punctuation. A “nitwit” from you is a weighty compliment indeed.
“to know the guys being annoying. sometimes its easier, like i can tell your annoying after only 5 lines. see?”
blowhard….and you have the audacity to call other people abrasive and annoying??
Why not stick to posts about baseball?
Most baseball fan’s would love to be in our predicament, I’ve been loving the Yanks since I was a boy, and we have:
Won 8 WS Titles
Lost 6 WS
and been in the thick of the post season most of the time, when you think about it, put in context that’s pretty darn good.
Allot of other team’s fan’s don’t even get to play in Oct except for maybe once or twice in all the year’s they support their team. I refuse to say it’s over but, we have had it pretty good to be in it every year, even now, although it does look grimm.
wow ellen, picking on someones grammar and punctuation on a blog that has no edit feature is just about as weak a rebuttal as possible, but ironically, validates my post.
SJ,
I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on Jeter and how you would handle him going forward. Do live with him at SS until he wants to retire? Do you move him to another position even if it goes against his wishes? Do you entertain trading him as soon as this off season? Do you dare consider resigning him in 2 years?
Which leaves the rest of us to write correctly the first time, oh erudite one.
sox fan,
youre missing the point. i am being a blowhard to demonstrate to sj44 what he sounds like a large part of the time. also, he has become more like this as the season progresses. i am truly only bringing this up to make him more readable again. much as he has with his countless diatribes to the yankees front office, i am annointing myself the unoffical adviser to the blog and am here to offer advise and criticism as to how all can have a better blogging experience.
sj44isablowhard,
Who cares? I like to read his opinions and others on here so I don’t need you to police anything!
Blowhard, one of your first assignments in giving advise on having a better blog/board, is to insist on controls or desires to get rid of jackazses like you.
Getter done.
gb7, listen, from what ive read the past couple of weeks, the general tone of the board is coming down and a couple of people, sj44 being one of them, are dominating the discussion. i believe its because some bloggers feel disenfranchised that they are lashing out and not offering constructive baseball talk. they are sick of being lectured on everything in that pontificating style.
there is room here for all styles and opinions but its when a couple people shoot down everyone else and offer these lengthy treatises that the blog suffers.
A letter from Cashman to SJ44:
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Clearly you still watch the games. Or, you wouldn’t be so “brave†as to post under a blog name while taking shots at me.
The one thing people like yourself fail to come to grips with is, no matter how many shots you take at me, its never going to change how I general manage.
So, pardon me if I don’t take your “advice†about what to do or not to do. It ain’t happenin’.
The sooner you come to grips with that the better off you will be.
If you have baseball opinions to contribute to the team, send them to the office. If you are just hear to take shots at me, while you may impress yourself with them, it doesn’t add anything to the team’s present or future condition.
Sincerely,
Brian Cashman
sound familiar???
Ray (Sox Fan)
He he he, thanks. I actually don’t consider myself boring most of the time. I was just trying to help Seriously? out with his dilemma.
Anyway, what I dislike most about you Ray is that you are very likeable! That always causes me great angst because it forces me to divide my loyalties. It’s just so much easier for me to hate all things Sux (see I even have trouble using that word when I am posting to you!)
It’s just not fair I tell you.
Actually, a person who has become one of my dearest cyberfriends began as an archenemy on the NY Times Yankee forum. We were definitely oil and water, and his “hatred” of all things Yankees parallelled mine of all things Sux. Truly. But the odd part is that we had such simpatico that we actually started being friends! We both grew up in the Hatfield-McCoy battlefield, and as such we totally understood the intense rivalry that seemed to alude people who were more geographically removed or just didn’t understand that the title “the most intense rivalry in sports” was actually more than a title!
Okay, now I am starting to bore myself! But I hope you understand what I’m saying. You are really a good guy. (But I will always be a superstitious sports fan. The guy to whom I referred is also a member of my other baseball forum, and we have banned him from hanging out there when games are on! That was a group decision by the Yankee fans there. But he is very good about it.)
“Go back and look at dynasties. The Yankees, the Bulls, the Patriots. Lots of creative tension in those front offices.
Their SOLE GOAL has to be to make the New York Yankees better. That’s it. Make it about TEAM and not about any one person or player. NOBODY who draws a NY Yankee paycheck is above the team. That has to be the mantra.”
It’s sort of a contradiction, because historically, dynasties are fueled by the transcendence of its star player. The Bulls had Michael Jordan, and the Patriots have Tom Brady. The Yankees Dynasty of 96-01 were mostly the sum of its parts, but its transcendent player was Mariano Rivera. There were other stars, and it was a team effort on all levels. But Rivera was the guy that everyone feared, the go-to guy, the constant in the Yankee universe. Get the ball to Mariano, and the Yankees will win. The whole purpose of playing the game was to get the ball to Rivera. Rivera is in the twilight of his career, still possibly the best in the game, but the key word there is possibly. 8-10 years ago, there wasn’t even a conversation.
For these Yankees, it could be Joba, it could be someone they sign from the outside, but on these Yankees, there’s no one that has that mystique around them. I think a big part of the problem is that everyone, including Rivera, is putting too much pressure on themselves to succeed, perhaps because they don’t trust that the guy behind them or in front of them to get the job done. I don’t get the feeling that everyone on this team is out for themselves, I do get the feeling that the pressure is getting to them.
Everyone needs to know their roles, and how to execute their roles, and what’s expected of them. With the dynasty Yankees, it was simple. The offense’s job was to get the lead, the pitching was to hold the lead or keep it close, all leading up to Rivera. Rivera was the X-Factor. If everyone did their jobs right, if we get the ball to Mo, we’ll be alright, we’ll win. With these Yankees, it seems like the pitching has to worry about whether or not they get enough offense, the offense has to worry about whether the pitching is going to hold up. I even believe that the reason why Rivera struggles with tie games is because he doesn’t know if he has to stay for 1 or 2 or more innings. He has no clue if the offense is going to pick him up.
If we’re looking at the past dynasties, the whole “sum of the parts” mantra and front office “putting team first” isn’t entirely true. It’s one thing to win a championship, but if we’re talking DYNASTY, you need to have that transcendent star, you need someone that gives the team the edge mentally. When the chips are down and the team is struggling, you need someone to point to and say “I don’t have to worry about carrying the team, he’s got it covered, I just have to do my job.”
Blowhard,
You really look like the loser.. who cares what other people write on this blog. That is the whole point. Don’t read the posts or go back to playing video games.
Hall of Famer… meaning Cal Ripkin??
Blowhard:
Try your other hand … it’ll feel like someone else is doing it for a change.
Blowhard…you’re too full of your own self-importance…among other things. You’ve attacked everyone you’ve talked to on this board. You’re neither that intelligent nor that important to waste any more time reading your BS. Your opinions/thoughts have less meaning than the incoherent ramblings of Stuart Little…and that’s saying a lot.
SJ44,
He made terrible moves year in and year out as GM. They had 3 100 loss seasons. I don’t care who his owner was. His owner wasn’t making the trades & signings that he was making in his 6 years running the ship.
But what, he gets job offers after he gets canned and that is supposed to make me upset that he didn’t land with the Yankees? Ed Wade got another job after running the Phillies into the ground. Jim Bowden is STILL a GM. I don’t care about crappy GMs who just so happen to be “highly regarded baseball people” by you and your sources. The industry is an incestuous joke where people who are shown to be completely incompetent can talk themselves back into positions of authority and just keep coming back from the dead, regardless of how bad their track records are and how little they’ve accomplished. The fact that Allard Baird got hired by the Red Sox is in no way causing me Red Sox Envy or making me wish the Yankees’ front office had landed him. Honestly, I am not going to spend one second fretting over whether all the team’s white collar employees are perfect or not. I prefer to worry about the players and the potential to fix the team’s roster.
I don’t care about the front office soap operas going on across baseball, because it’s all the same garbage being dressed up in different outfits, across 30 different organizations. “This team doesn’t have enough baseball men so they’re going to make a once-great player who has a feel for the game to work in the front office”, “This team needs to take more of a statistical approach to running the ship so they’re hiring this young Ivy League grad”, “This guy has been a company man who has learned from this other incompetent guy and is going to improve on his past mistakes” and so on and so forth.
Allard Baird being a plus for the Red Sox is not a factor in anything the Yankees do this year, this fall, or this winter, so I don’t give two damns about it. The fact that this is supposed to somehow be disconcerting to us Yankees fans is like crying wolf when you spot a dog on a leash. You want to rip the team for not making the right moves, fine. I can even deal with the same post over and over again about how the Yankees need an outside evaluation, because it’s not a bad idea. But somehow making this a “Boy we really stink, look at how great THESE guys are!” discussion is silly considering every organization is full of its fair share of imbeciles, and I am not buying that the Sox have somehow assembled this “smartest guys in the room” group that is blowing us out of the water.
Pete, why so bitter? It’s not like he’s personally taken YOUR money. It’s been spread around. Maybe only $4 for each resident of NYC. Less than a latte or a pack of cigarettes. Less than a small fist-full of lottery tickets. And the entertainment goes on and on and on! Well at least through this winter, & then longer only if he scores another contract. Enjoy! Baltimore’s a beautiful place to see a game, and SO easily to make into a second home park.
you know who else got a job offer (and took it) after he got fired? david littlefield. job offers in baseball aren’t really a good indication of talent.
Yeah release Pavano and let another team use him for their playoff push.
Rush Phil Hughes up again and let him get rocked so we can completely destroy any confidence he has since we’ve already turned Kennedy into a toad.
Great plan.