It will come down to the starters
-
- August
- 25
The Yankees have 32 games remaining starting tomorrow and two days off.
Andy Pettitte can make eight starts and Mike Mussina seven. The good news: They’ll start four of the six games against Boston if they pitch every five days.
The bad news: What happens in the other 17 games?
Sidney Ponson has pitched better than expected. But he’s 3-3, 5.46 with the Yankees and is 22-35, 4.76 in August and September in his career.
Darrell Rasner is 5-9, 5.03.
Carl Pavano? All jokes aside, he was barely breaking 90 the other night and has thrown only 24 innings since having Tommy John surgery. In theory, he could make seven more starts. But that’s assuming an awful lot.
The Yankees are going to have to find some starters somewhere at some point. Here are the candidates, in no particular order:
Victor Zambrano: He has pitched well in four minor-league games for the Yankees. But Zambrano was 0-6, 9.45 for AAA Colorado earlier this season.
Phil Hughes: His recent struggles in AAA suggest a need for more seasoning. The Yankees have to properly develop him at some point, don’t they? Hughes was rushed to the majors in 2007 and given a job he didn’t earn in 2008.
Ian Kennedy: See Phil Hughes.
Joba Chamberlain: Joe Girardi says he’s confident that Chamberlain will pitch in the majors again this season. But don’t expect to see Joba as a starter. If on Aug. 25 he’s limited to throwing 35 pitches in the bullpen at 85 percent effort, how could be be ready to start a major-league game any time soon?
Alfredo Aceves: The Mexican League veteran has pitched better of late for Scranton.
Chase Wright: He’s had a tough road since that night at Fenway Park but is pitching well right now and probably deserves a chance.
The bottom line: You’d feel a lot better about their chances if they had four competent starters instead of two. The season was in trouble when Chien-Ming Wang got hurt in June and was probably lost when Joba hurt his shoulder in August.
The math says they’re still alive and anything is possible. But unless somebody else joins Pettitte and Moose on the reliable side of the ledger, it’s hard to see how the Yankees can pull this off.
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on Monday, August 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
The Yankees once made the playoffs with Shawn Chacon and Aaron Small in the rotation.
Chase Wright should be called up immediately to replace Rasner. He has earned it imo. Hughes needs more time in AAA to work on his pitches rather than learning that by struggles in the bigs.
The Yankees are doing a huge disservice to themselves, Joba Chamberlain, and the well-being of the team. It’s come to the point where you can see they are really babying him. He says he feels fine. It obviously wasn’t anything serious, otherwise they wouldn’t let him throw at all. He said it was his goal to be back by the end of August, they clearly don’t want that to happen.
It didn’t even look like he was going to tell them about this stiffness. Aren’t they worried that in the future if he feels a little something he’s not going to tell them? If they shut him down for a month because of a little stiffness, what’s going to happen every time he tells them he’s a little stiff or his arm hurts a little? They’ll shut him down again. He’s not stupid. He wants to pitch. If he’s hurting a little in the future, he’s most likely going to keep it to himself so they don’t pull the baby act on him. That’s really bad for everyone. Because if one day he tries to hide a serious injury, it can damage his arm.
There’s already friction with him saying he’s ready, he feels fine, and wanted to be back by the end of August, the thing on which day he would begin throwing, etc.
The offense can make up for the Joba loss and can carry them into the playoffs, if the lineup stays hot.
if pavano can win a game, then Igawa can do it also!
Pete — All of your points are spot on. Too many Pollyannas on this blog speak as if Rasner and Ponson are doing solid jobs. The numbers say otherwise. And to count on Pavano is just wishful thinking. Banking on Hughes and Kennedy was just foolish; now, there is zero depth.
I would like to see Zambrano get a shot instead of Rasner after seeing his great performance for Scranton the other night.
trade for santana!
oh wait.
Sounds like it is Zambrano (He’s the little girl with the curl, isn’t he?), Aceves and Wright on-call. At this point, I can see Joba joining the crew in the bullpen, although they may stretch him out to do 2-3 innings stints by the end of the year, if it comes to that.
when the yankees made it with chacon and small they had the top offense in the league, we’re middle of the pack now. plus, at the end of ‘05 we had a 3 man core rotation of big unit, wang and mussina all pitching well. in fact, randy johnson, had a really effective year with us that year pitching over 220 innings and with a 3.70 era or so. we don’t have that this year. if we had wang i’d say maybe, but no chance with the injury cards we’ve been dealt. still, would love to see us make the sox sweat and take 2 out of 3 this week.
“The offense can make up for the Joba loss and can carry them into the playoffs, if the lineup stays hot.”
This offense is so inconsistent. We scored 15 runs on a Sunday vs the Royals. Than we fail to score more than 3 runs in 2 of the next 3 games. Yes, we scored 22 runs in the 3-game series vs Baltimore, but this offense struggles greatly at times.
trade for starter if we sweep.padilla and his 4 hour game is available
The Yankees are doing a huge disservice to themselves, Joba Chamberlain, and the well-being of the team. It’s come to the point where you can see they are really babying him.
yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about.
maybe they are, maybe they aren’t.
i don’t know.
what i DO know, is that you don’t either.
but hey, keep spewing uninformed nonsense. that’s what this place is for!
they can pull it off because they’re the yankees.
but thank you for the words of optimism anyway pete
Doesn’t Joba have an injury history with his arm? Wouldn’t that justify their “babying” him, given his obvious value to the organization + his youth?
“they can pull it off because they’re the yankees.”
I wish, but be realistic. Pavano, Rasner, and Ponson as a 3-5 set for a rotation is just unthinkable.
Ron Ron,
Wang missed most of the summer that year and Moose didnt have a good year either. I agree with you about the offense but after seeing the Yankees beat two pitchers over the weekend who theyve struggled against this year maybe the offense can pick it up and put up the numbers they’re supposed to.
joba should go to bullpen instead of hurting him with 6-7 inning outings on a team with a slim chance if any
russ,
In doing so, you would still have Pavano, Rasner, and Ponson going out there 3 of every 5 days. Joba wasn’t converted to a reliever, back to a starter just to be turned back into a reliever. I’d rather go into a “pennant” race (for our situation) with Moose/Joba/Pettitte/Ponson/Wright or Rasner or Pavano
I’d go Chase Wright, he has a chip on his shoulder and the kid has earned it.
Where to find a starter?? If you’re looking internally, I’d just give Chase a shot (tho not against the Sawx… might be some PTSD lingering there… altho, he might just want to redeem himself and spank em, who knows?) I don’t know if Aceves is the answer, but he may be worth a look. But giving away games trying out pitchers isn’t something the Yanks can afford right now so I don’t know.
Externally, try for Washburn again? Maybe the M’s won’t be so stupid this time.
Chase Wright should definitely get called up. The Yankees have been hard on him since that awful Red Sox outing last year, LAST YEAR. I mean, it took until the end of July (this year) for Chase to get promoted from AA Trenton to AAA Scranton. Now in Scranton, he’s probably their number one starter. He can’t be worse than Rasner in the majors, can he?
Honestly, I don’t see Joba returning to the rotation unless by some miracle, the Yanks make the playoffs. Only then, by the Yanks’ current rehab sched would he be ready to pitch… in October.
what a about igawa… call him up and give him his last chance, u dont have nothing to lose at this point
matt’
he can’t even rehab in triple aaa for a start or 2.it’s a tough call.he is probably fine.i love joba but i thought he was using an injury as a bad exuse for getting hit hard that day he got hurt.i think he was shocked he was getting rocked like that.we don’t really know extent of injury.chase wright is really owed a shot over rasner.
He can’t be worse than Rasner in the majors, can he?
I dunno… Razz hasn’t given up back to back to back to back homers yet… But then, Razz hasn’t exactly been rock solid either. Coin flip. Chase has earned a chance I think.
“The Yankees once made the playoffs with Shawn Chacon and Aaron Small in the rotation.”
Yes, but didn’t Small go 9-0 (or was it 11-0) that season? Didn’t Chacon pitch very well too?
If Ponson and Rasner were pitching like Small and Chacon pitched that season, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
“igawa… call him up and give him his last chance, u dont have nothing to lose at this point”
Well, you could lose the game he pitches in, to start.
It helped that Small and Chacon had run support too.
There’s got to be pitcher out there for a non-contending team who will be a FA at the end of the year. Perhaps Cash can still wheel a trade before Sept 1st. Problem being whether other AL East teams will block the trade.
Pete GO TO DENVER!!!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/08/25/2008-08-25_bruce_springsteen_is_born_to_help_barack.html
matt, have you bothered to look at the 3-5 pitchers that NYY has run out there in the last three years? There isn’t enough space here to type the replacement names. The same can be said for the bullpens. The yanks have patched together a pitching staff for years. Usually to good starters and decent setup man and Rivera. Everyone else was a castoff or spent more time hurt than pitching, because they joined the Yanks with injuries and/or injury history. makes you wonder how Torre won anything at all, doesn’t it. Girardi has had the same problem this year except that he actually had good bullpen replacements, even if they were inexperienced.
“Pete — All of your points are spot on. Too many Pollyannas on this blog speak as if Rasner and Ponson are doing solid jobs. The numbers say otherwise. And to count on Pavano is just wishful thinking. Banking on Hughes and Kennedy was just foolish; now, there is zero depth.”
Did someone call my name???
Ponson has done more than a solid job. You need a #5, even call him a #4, he’s shown he can rise to the occasion. And he is very major league tested. Is it possible that he will fall on his face? Sure. But it’s possible with any starting pitcher, him no more so. He hasn’t done anything more to cause panic in one’s voice than just about everyone but Moose. And that’s going some. So I wouldn’t worry about Ponson. As Michael Kay is fond of saying, not bad for someone the Yankees took off the scrap heap.
hint: the Yankees like Ponson so it doesn’t really matter what you or I think anyway. He’s going to be there.
Andy Pettitte
Mike Mussina
Carl Pavano – has certainly earned another start.
The rest is up to the real brains involved – and that would preclude anyone on this forum. What I mean to say is that the Yankee organization better than anyone knows how the pitching is going down below. It will likely come from there, so we’ll have to wait and see what they come up with – something I’m very good at doing!
Zero depth – hardly, in my opinion.
Zambrano – he definitely is the little girl with the curl. But there’s always a possibility we’d get the very very good.
Phil Hughes or Ian Ken?
Please no more of them. Igawa deserves a chance before those two.
Well the issue with the rotation has been going on since march IMO but the Front Office made their bed and now we all have to lie in it. This weekend should be interesting as Burnett and Haladay have the chance to put a stake in their hearts. The Yanks have been near dead a number of times but have clawed their way back to life. A series win against the Sox is a good possibility but nothing will hide the fact that they just don’t have the guns to hang with the big boys. They’ve got 2 #2 starters and 3 #5’s. And even that may be a generous assessment.
Small went 10-0.
I would call Mike Mussina a #1 starter every day of the week. I would probably also put Andy in there.
ER – i agree 100%
“They’ve got 2 #2 starters and 3 #5’s. And even that may be a generous assessment.” Exactly. That is the definition of zero depth.
Well the issue with the rotation has been going on since march IMO but the Front Office made their bed and now we all have to lie in it.
totally.
when Wang and Joba got injured in March, the season was over.
Aaron Small went 10-0; Chacon went 7-3 with a lot of no decisions (2005 season)
The thing is Rasner is not a good pitcher. His era is in the 5.00 range. Pavano doesn’t want to pitch in NY. Ponson was shelled recently but has been better than we thought he would have been in NY. The Yankees could use Joba in LR for a few games, than give him SP status.
I do think Chase Wright should be given another shot. He was known for 1 bad game and that’s pretty much it. He has a good groundout/flyout ratio and has an era under 2.75 this season in the minors.
My point about Chacon and Small is that their performances wete totally unexpected. Pavano, Rasner, and Ponson could surprise everyone down the stretch as well. Pavano is pitching for anew contract so he may be possessed and Ponson has the ability to get out of jams and give you innings. I just don’t think you can definitively say the Yankees won’t make the playoffs simply because those guys are in the rotation.
raymagnetic – totally agree.
ray: absolutely. But I think they caught lightning in a bottle with Small and Chacon that year. It might be too much to ask them to do that again, although I certainly would like to have it happen.
DFox, that was the best post I’ve seen on here in a long time. The babying of Joba is beyond ridiculous. Good job.
If Bill Gates were to buy the team, is there a rule that would prevent us from signing every single free agent on the market?
A couple billions for a World Series doesn’t sound bad
considering that China spent $4.7 Billion on the Olympic Opening ceremony alone.
The problem with zambrano is the same as with Pavano. Recent surgery and not many innings. The difference being, Pavano was good at one time, and, actually has a clue about how to pitch. Whether the heart and will is there is a different story. Zambrano is the same type of pitcher that Daniel Cabrera was two years ago. Throws hard and no clue about where it’s going and doesn’t really care about where it goes. Remember him with Tampa…he’s the one that took shots at Rodriguez and Jeter. He broke Jeter’s hand down in Tampa..hitting him twice in the game. No thanks, unless it’s for relaliation against Tampa, Baltimore and Boston.
Just looking at the schedule for next week. A Thursday night game in Tampa and on Friday in Seattle. Could MLB make them fly any farther? Jeesh. Could they field the Scranton team that Thursday in Tampa so the Jeter and the boys are a bit rested for the west coast? Nothing is easy this year.
“hint: the Yankees like Ponson so it doesn’t really matter what you or I think anyway. He’s going to be there.”
Of course, he’s going to be there, because the Yankees have so few other options. And they can’t speak poorly of him, because, again, they don’t have other options. See a thread here? If other options existed, the whole picture changes.
True dat… not like Joba is going to be our ace for the next 10 years or anything. Why not jeopardize it on a season where everyone predicts no more than a 7.4% chance of making the playoffs? The Yanks are just being stupid.
“DFox, that was the best post I’ve seen on here in a long time. The babying of Joba is beyond ridiculous. Good job.”
Joba has a history of little lingering arm issues dating back to college. That’s why he dropped so far in the draft and the Yankees were able to get him. I don’t see it as babying him at all. I see it as the Yankees not wanting this kid to do serious damage to himself when he’s liable to push through it and change his arm slot.
joba needs his innings this year, otherwise he is only going to throw 120-130 next year, which means they have to start him in the pen again or keep him in extended spring training or something for the first 6 weeks then bring him up.
joba should go to bullpen instead of hurting him with 6-7 inning outings on a team with a slim chance if any
I’m not even going to begin to breakdown what’s so wrong about this post.
Kevin,
Don’t forget they start the road trip with a stop in Detroit for a, get this, makeup game.
“Of course, he’s going to be there, because the Yankees have so few other options. And they can’t speak poorly of him, because, again, they don’t have other options. See a thread here? If other options existed, the whole picture changes.”
I hear you. But you have to make do with what you have. So let’s just hope we can maximize the potential of what we have and that the offense continues to step up and somehow help out on the down days of the starters. That’s about all we can do. We’re not the Angels and we’re not the Twins, and we’re not some of the other teams who are well positioned right now. But when you think about it, it has been the offense that has relly hurt this season, not the pitching and defense. So if we are finally firing on all cylinders, then who knows what is possible.
I heard the other day that Hughes and Joba will still have innings caps next season. At this point, I am ready to say that the Yankees should not bring up any pitcher who is not allowed to pitch 6-7 innings a game every 5th day for an entire season. Counting on those players is foolish. A spot start or bullpen help is fine, but when you think that 60% of the rotation (Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlain) wouldn’t have been able to pitch a full season, it makes you wonder what the braintrust was thinking going into this season. It makes me think that anyway. I guess maybe they knew this was a rebuilding year. ARGH. Frustrating, regardless.
How can you say that Hughes did not earn a spot when this season began? Thats pretty foolish. The guy had a 2.25 ERA last September and was our best pitcher who essentially pitched us into October. Then once in the postseason, he single handedly gave us a chance against the Indians with his great relief performance. If the bugs don’t attack Joba, we may have won that series and everybody would’ve pointed to Hughes as the MVP of the series for us. He undoubtedly deserved the spot to begin this season.
“Andy Pettitte can make eight starts and Mike Mussina seven. The good news: They’ll start four of the six games against Boston if they pitch every five days.
The bad news: What happens in the other 17 games?”
Can’t assume the Yanks win all 15 started by the Elders, nor can you assume 17 losses in all the others. Bottom line is you need 22 wins to get to 92 and a fair shot at the playoffs.
This is going to be on the offense to a large degree. One way or another, they need to carry the team to 30+ games of close to .700 ball.
“I would call Mike Mussina a #1 starter every day of the week. I would probably also put Andy in there.”
Mussina has been awesome and for all intents and purposes, he is their #1 but no team is going to build their rotation around him. An ace has to out pitch an opposing teams # 1 and that is something Mussina has not had to do many times this season. I wouldn’t feel too bad if the Yanks make the playoffs and start off with the Pettite- Moose combo but the next game would be definitely a pray for rain scenario. Even then it’s not like Andy & Mike are the Schilling/Johnson death squad of 2001.
Call me crazy, but I don’t know that the Yankees “like” Ponson. Unless “like” means “at the moment have no other viable option besides.”
here’s an idea!! we should try to trade Victor Zambrano for Scott Kazmir…. that has worked before haha
in all seriousness, if we take 2/3 from Boston which is very doable, we would be 4 games back with 29 to go… certainly not out of question… 2/3 is easier said than done though…
Ellen — totally agree. Or, unless “like” means he took his teammates to a nice restaurant in Baltimore for crab.
“in all seriousness, if we take 2/3 from Boston which is very doable, we would be 4 games back with 29 to go”
That’s 4 games in back OF BOSTON. Could be more than that when measured against the Twins/White Sox. That’s what makes this difficult. Two teams have to lose 5 games for the Yanks to be the Wild Card.
Like with 40 games or so, it’s on the offense. Just think – if the Yanks had won at at least 25% of those low scoring games, it’d be a 10 game differential (meaning – first place in the AL East). sigh.
“Call me crazy, but I don’t know that the Yankees “like†Ponson. Unless “like†means “at the moment have no other viable option besides.—
I won’t call you crazy because I think everyone is entitled to think whatever he or she wants to think.
Actually from everything I’ve read and heard, the Yankees very much like Ponson, both in the clubhouse and on the field.
Jackson, Melancon, Igawa. Take a shot, there’s nothing to lose, etc.
Mo is convinced they can do this, and I believe everything Mo says about the Yankees. Seriously. And if the Yanks can sneak into the playoffs with a rotation which includes Sid Ponson, Pavano, and Igawa, anything, and I mean ANYTHING, is possible
OK, you are crazy.
Ponson isn’t the greatest pitcher, but he has kept the Yankees in a number of games. The biggest problem is that he is higher in the rotation than he should be due to the injuries. He is what he is.
Yeah, what Trisha said. We shouldn’t question the choices made by the Yankee organization. They have been correct in everything they’ve done this year. They don’t make mistakes.
And maybe Ponson is a ticking time bomb, but the Yankees like him. He’s raised his game to be a #5 starter. Teams need mediocre pitchers like that. And he’s no more likely to fail than any other pitcher, even if his career numbers suggest otherwise. So you meanies who think Ponson is only pitching here because there’s no better option are way off.
It’s probably better not to comment on the Yankee rotation any more because we are not the real brains and it doesn’t matter what anyone here thinks anyway.
Oh F it let me say it the STUPID thing in putting Joba in the BP is that instead of him getting 5 days rest you risk him putting pressure 3-4 times a week, So for the next idiot that suggests lets put him in the pen learn about muscles and tendons and why they need rest. If Joba can’t throw 80-90 pitches then he should be shut down for the year.
SoS,
Thanks for the kind words.
I think you’re talking about Waipio vs. Waipahu.
It’s called Waipio but they use Waipahu’s zip code. It’s very confusing.
And on that note, I will retire the Waipio tagline.
Ah good old Nick. Always coming in from the back door.
Try it this way Nick: If you don’t agree just say you don’t agree.
I think Ponson is far from mediocre. I’m pretty happy with the way the Yankees have been playing. I’m hopeful they will continue to do well.
I will always belong to the glass is half full club.
I think it’s a proven fact that players score more runs for pitchers they like.
“I think Ponson is far from mediocre.”
I believe you’re a party of one here.
trisha,
I don’t think Nick’s taking a dig at you. Or are you, Nick? It’s very hard to tell with him and his double-edged wit.
While Ponson will always belong to the drink the glass empty club… especially if it’s got some hard liquor in it.
sorry… couldn’t resist.
5 games out of the postseason with 32 games to go. considering just last season, philly was 7 out with 17 to go only to come back and win the division, anything is possible.
so in interim, y’all can go into the numbers…how this guy can’t do this, how that guy can’t do that. but i’ll be watching every pitch and hope for the best b/c in baseball, anything can happen.
the whole “i’m being realistic” stuff is all just poop. it ain’t that deep. they win alot, they can get in. no need to overanalyze and no need to put up this self defense mechanism to satisfy our own ego if they don’t make it.
again, it ain’t that deep.
“I believe you’re a party of one here.”
Then you haven’t been reading very thoroughly.
Nice one, Sunny.
Yeah, you’re right. The Sir Sidney fan club stretches from here to the moon. Kids everywhere have his poster on their walls.
“the whole “i’m being realistic†stuff is all just poop. it ain’t that deep. they win alot, they can get in. no need to overanalyze and no need to put up this self defense mechanism to satisfy our own ego if they don’t make it.
again, it ain’t that deep.”
Bravo.
That’s just about it.
“I think Ponson is far from mediocre.”
Trisha:
He’s been decidedly mediocre. Thing is, that in being mediocre, he exceeded expectations by a pretty significant margin.
Somebody up top mentioned trying to get Seattle to be more reaonable with Washburn.
The way I understand it, a claim was put in by Minnesota, but Seattle demanded either Slowey or Nick Blackburn to make the deal. When Minnesota refused, Seattle pulled Washburn back from waivers. That action – pulling him back from waivers – means he must stay with Seattle for the remainder of the season.
trisha your crush on Ponson is almost as bad as randy’s infatuation with Livan Hernandez. Almost.
Both Hernandez and Ponson stink
ZMAN7777 – does it really matter who here believes in Ponson and who doesn’t? Come on now that’s really baby stuff.
He’s with the team, we’ll root for him to win, and hopefully he’ll continue to win.
dude, the Mets/Philly analogy isn’t going to work here. The Mets had a complete meltdown that hadn’t happened in over 30 years. Plus it was for the division title where the Phils only had to win the division to get in. The Yanks have to pass the Sux AND the Twins/ChiSox to get a shot at just the wildcard. It’s not beat the Sux and you’re in… gotta pass the Twins/ChiSox too dude.
(Thanks ZMAN7777)
QOD:
If you could only chosse one, which would you rather have:
A. Yankees barely make it into the playoffs and get killed by the Angels
B. Moose gets his 20 win season and cements his Hall of Fame chances
“philly was 7 out with 17 to go only to come back and win the division, anything is possible.”
1) Mets lost the division more than Philly won it.
2) Chasing multiple teams is a lot tougher than chasing one.
“He’s been decidedly mediocre. Thing is, that in being mediocre, he exceeded expectations by a pretty significant margin.”
Haha, exactly! I figured he would get bombed so I was pleasantly surprised that he has been a serviceable #5 starter. The only problem is that he is now the #3 starter.
The M’s GM will end up keeping Washburn. Fine by me, I don’t think he was worth dealing for.
ponson and rasner should be replaced by acevez and wright.wright is 25 yrs old and has been to the bigs before,hughes has only 2 ml ready pitches and untill he develops a 3rd and maybe 4th he is useless.whenever his other pitches fail he goes to his curve and fastball only and hitters sit on them.pitch wright on rasners next start and have ras ready to come in if wright get’s roughed up.
If Joba can’t make it back as a starter, then I’d like to see Wright and Aceves. I think Aceves will certainly do well in the short-term, against guys who’ve never seen him. And Wright got a raw deal, getting shipped out after Boston pounded him.
“does it really matter who here believes in Ponson and who doesn’t?”
In the end, not that much matters. However, it’s useful and instructive to view players and their performances objectively. Will we root for Sid? Yes, of course. Do we wish he and Rasner were not part of the rotation? Most definitely.
Pete did the Yankees end up signing Eric Milton or no? Depending on his rehab progression he could be a useful candidate for the rotation. He does have experience.
Mel, I would choose A, without question.
I think that when it comes to this season, I belong to the glass is 3/4 empty club.
mel, I’d pick B. that way I will always have something nice to think of when I remember the 2008 Yankees
Mel, there is no guarantee that Moose would get in the HOF even with a 20 win season. Getting 20 wins would be nice for him, but it isn’t going to give him a lock.
Too much depends on who is retiring at the same time he is.
Mel: great question! Given this is the last year of YS, I would choose A, just to avoid the unthinkable of no October baseball there. But, having to watch the Angels (potentially) celebrate on that field would be awful!!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/08/25/2008-08-25_bruce_springsteen_is_born_to_help_barack.html
Peter are you going now to the DNC?
fuhgoobagaz,
Here’s a nice article about Moose. Pretty convincing and they do talk about context.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3550167
I’m all for having Wright taking Rasner’s start
fuhgoobagaz,
Make sure you read it. They talk about the ridiculous Base 10 factors. I think he flings an arrow or two at the writers!
“Mel, there is no guarantee that Moose would get in the HOF even with a 20 win season. Getting 20 wins would be nice for him, but it isn’t going to give him a lock.
Too much depends on who is retiring at the same time he is.”
This doesn’t make a difference on whether he will ultimately gets in. If he pulls of 20 wins but retires in a first-rate class (e.g., with Randy and Pedro) he will just get elected a few years after eligibility, as opposed to first-ballot.
If Moose gets to 20 wins I would bet anything he’ll get into the HOF at some point. I doubt he would make it on his first ballot no matter what.
If he doesn’t get to 20 wins, his election will depend on whether he reels off a few more good or great seasons.
mets/philly thing applies b/c it backs up my premise that anything can happen in baseball. same goes for the rockies. if the philly team possessed the same attitude that some of you *fans* do, then they would not have won the division b/c “hey, we’re 7 out with 17 to go, we’ll NEVER be able to do it…”
btw, if you look closer at the *epic* mets collapse…
mets finished the final 17 games of the season 5-12 to finish the season while philly went 13-4. BUT, they played each other 3 times which philly swept. so therefore, the mets went 5-9 for 14 games and philly went 10-4. 5-9 can easily happen for any team over a 14 game stretch. what the yankees have to do is beat the teams ahead of them head to head. so the only team that they need alot of help about is minny b/c they don’t face them again.
keep the faith…don’t try to talk yourself out of hope…it serves no purpose…
it ain’t that deep…baseball is an unpredictable sport…
The answer is A. Hey they make it there and anything can happen in a 5 game series. Moose and Andy pitch gems,the offense doesn’t go to sleep. Suddenly the Angels have a gun pointed at their head and need to win 3 straight. (of course they probably would)
The glass is 1/4 full !
Oh how I love the off days.
trade rasner
“In the end, not that much matters. However, it’s useful and instructive to view players and their performances objectively.”
I agree. So I would submit to you since there is never any unanimity of thought here on anything, objectivity becomes pretty subjective!
I have no problem with anyone viewing things from a different vantage point. And there’s probably no point in arguing those things where we look at them differently. I respect your opinion. That’s the best I can say. I don’t agree with it but I do respect it.
“Will we root for Sid? Yes, of course. Do we wish he and Rasner were not part of the rotation? Most definitely.” You said it!
Yeah, I’d choose A, too. Barely. But Moose can get his 20 next season! And if he does, we won’t be squeaking into the playoffs in ‘09.
mel
Gotta go with A.
You don’t trade individual accomplishments for team ones.
Ponson has made 10 starts for NYY. 6 have been good to very good (3 runs or less). Four haven’t been, but, one was 4 runs in 6 innings. He has pitched well enough with run support that he should have been no worse than 6-3 and maybe 7-3. That’s more than respectable for a #5 pitcher who is a rotation patch.
mussina and pettitte are not number one starters,wang arguably isn;t a number one.at best mussina is a 2 and pettitte is a three.rasner and ponson are 5’s.the yankees need an ace in 2009 to go with wang and joba,bring pettitte and mussina back as the 4th and 5th at huge pay cuts.joba should be shut down for the year also.start him off slow next year.
mel-I would vote A
“trisha your crush on Ponson is almost as bad as randy’s infatuation with Livan Hernandez”
hey patrick-
is that what they mean by killing two birds with one stone? good one.
… but just remember if the twins knock off the yankees for the wild card, it’ll be that 14-9 winning record when livan was pitching that separated them from the yankees.
you’ll be spending all winter trying to figure out how that could have happened when all your numbers say it couldn’t have happened.
I guess I would vote A because it wouldn’t be “normal” to see the playoffs without Yankee Stadium in its final season. Plus it could be used for Mussina to work hard for 300 wins (will have 270 career wins if he wins 20 games).
Chase Wright stinks
“Ponson has made 10 starts for NYY. 6 have been good to very good (3 runs or less). Four haven’t been, but, one was 4 runs in 6 innings. He has pitched well enough with run support that he should have been no worse than 6-3 and maybe 7-3. That’s more than respectable for a #5 pitcher who is a rotation patch.”
Thanks GB. I obviously don’t consider that record quite as bleak as some others here do.
“He has pitched well enough with run support that he should have been no worse than 6-3 and maybe 7-3.”
More or less true. He didn’t take a loss in a game where he gave up 7 runs but did not get a win in three games in which he pitched 6+ IP and gave up 2 or less. Until the Ontario Debacle, he had pitched into the 7th in 4 consecutive outings (into the 8th in two of those)thus saving the recently maligned bullpen. Still averages out to average, but again he’s far exceeded what was expected of him.
I think so much more of the game comes down to who the Yankees play and who their opposing pitchers are. Keep in mind we still have a better offense and bullpen than most teams.
We only play the Angels 3 more times. I hear all this talk about playing teams in the mix for the rest of the season. 6 left against Boston, 6 left against Tampa Bay, 6 left against Toronto. Lets start winning some games here.
No matter what Tampa’s standing, I still think we should beat on them.
“I think Ponson is far from mediocre.”
Far in which direction?
Chase Wright stinks
Saids who ?
mel,
I would vote A. One, Mussina could still get in the hall. And two, I really don’t want to have to read a whole off-season of Girardi-bashing if they don’t make the playoffs this year. Bad as a first-round loss would be, it would equal what Torre did with the team recently.
“No matter what Tampa’s standing, I still think we should beat on them.”
… or at least run over their catcher.
you realize you’re the only one still going on about the ‘Joba back to the bullpen’ thing right?
“Still averages out to average, but again he’s far exceeded what was expected of him.”
Not to split hairs but average and mediocre are very different things. Posters here have referred to him as mediocre. I think he’s probably better than average but certainly not mediocre.
“Chase Wright stinks
Saids who ?”
Me
Clare,
I hear you. I hate cheering against Torre, but I want Philly to do well. They’re on the verge of sweeping the Dodgers in a 4 game set. The Dodgers are hovering around .500, but the ‘Backs aren’t taking advantage.
randy l,
Now that’s playing spoiler! Take out the catcher and some infielders while they’re at it.
I’ll be the first to admit that they’ve gotten more from Ponson than I thought they would. The guy was DFA’d in May, for crying out loud. But his career ERA is close to 5. That’s not subjective. I think it’s reasonable to expect him to be approximately the pitcher his bubblegum card says he is.
To echo Nick in SF, there are commandments all Yankees fan should swear by,
1) Brian Cashman is a consummate genius
2) Every Front-Office decision in infallible
“Not to split hairs but average and mediocre are very different things. Posters here have referred to him as mediocre. I think he’s probably better than average but certainly not mediocre.”
Actually they are pretty close to the same, which is to say somewhere in the middle. There are 14 teams with 5 starters each. That’s 70. Not hard to find 35 better than Sid. Angels, White Sox, Rays and Twins all have at least 4 who are better than he is.
I want the Yanks to go to the post season with Pavano as their ace just to rub it in everyone’s face. I want all of the baseball pundits to be forced to watch the Yanks in October while the ‘righteous’ teams they love so much, the teams that they think deserve it, stay home. I want Jeter to finish with numbers close to his career numbers so all of the lazy writers have to revise their knee-jerk assumptions. I want Steve Goldman and Pete Abe to get stuck on an hot elevator together for the entire post season while Pavano pitches the Yanks to glory. I want Chamberlain to be brought in during this series to throw one pitch…at Youkilis’ head. I want Xavier Nady to win the MVP. I want A Rod to hit a world series game 7 walk-off HR while wearing Kabala gear and then thank Madonna for her inspiration on live television. That’s all.
Everybody yammers on about Torre’s record over the last few years (since 2004), but, go back and look at his pitching staffs during those years and tell me those were top rated staffs. Girardi has had the same issues this year…Only the names have changed. The top of the line rotations died when Clemens, Pettitte and Wells left for FA and there was no bullpen to pick up the slack. Girardi’s only differences this year was the offense colapsed and he has a very good bullpen (just inexperienced).
pizzaduuush – I thought your post was great.
To echo Nick in SF, there are ten commandments all Yankees fan should swear by,
1) Brian Cashman is a consummate genius
As such, all criticism of the Yankees’ GM is unfounded, petty caviling, disloyal, and harms the team.
2) Every Front-Office decision in infallible
3) Every decision the GM or his colleagues have made about Yankees starting rotation this year has been brilliant
4) Every decision that hasn’t profited the team is due to injuries or bad luck or circumstances beyond their control. 5) There are no better GMs than Brian Cashman and the Yankees could not find a better one even if they wanted to and they don’t.
6) The Yankees are always honest about player injuries.
7) Every decision the Yankees make about injured players are always in the best interest of both the player and the franchise.
9) The Yankees farm system is the best in baseball and Brian Cashman and his underlings deserves all the credit for it. (The only reason the Yankees along with the Nationals were the only team in the MLB not to sign their first-round pick is because Gerrit Cole and his father are liars and/or Scott Boras is a crook.)
10) Brian Cashman is the truth, the way, and the light.
To echo Nick in SF, there are ten commandments all Yankees fan should swear by,
1) Brian Cashman is a consummate genius
2) Every Front-Office decision is infallible
3) Every decision the GM or his colleagues have made about Yankees starting rotation this year has been brilliant
4) Every decision that hasn’t profited the team is due to
injuries or bad luck or circumstances beyond their control.
5) There are no better GMs than Brian Cashman and the Yankees could not find a better one even if they wanted to and they don’t.
6) The Yankees are always honest about player injuries.
7) Every decision the Yankees make about injured players are always in the best interest of both the player and the franchise.
9) The Yankees farm system is the best in baseball and Brian Cashman and his underlings deserves all the credit for it. (The only reason the Yankees along with the Nationals were the only team in the MLB not to sign their first-round pick is because Gerrit Cole and his father are liars and/or Scott Boras is a crook.)
10) Brian Cashman is the truth, the way, and the light.
Phil Hughes should see no more major league time this year. Age is on his side and this is a year for him to get healthy and right himself. He can start next spring with a clean slate.
Depending on what happens over the winter on the trade front, no guarantees with Kennedy.
There’s little left for choice but to see what Chase Wright can bring by the time the Jays series starts.
Of course we’ll all be rooting for Ponson to pitch well enough for the Yanks to win. But he’s on the roster because the Yanks are desperate. Having injuries and a minor league system that produces 1 solid major league starter once every 10 years will do that.
To put some perspective on Sir Sydney’s ability to get batters out:
In 2008 opponents are hiiting .310 with a .368 OBP, .453 slugging % and an .828 OPS.
In other words, if the Yanks could put together a lineup of the average hitters vs Ponson you’d have a lineup where only Nady, ARod and Damon have a higher batting average;only ARod, Nady, Damon, Giambi and Abreu have a higher OBP; only Nady, ARod and Giambi have a higher slugging % and only ARod, Nady, Damon, Giambi and Abreu have a higher OPS. And those are just the AVERAGE hitters vs Ponson.
We wish him well and hope for the best, but Ponson is nothing more than a stop gap. To think he’s currently our #3 starter in the rotation is a bad joke.
Hey Drew ! ! . . .
Have you got inside information on what deodorant Chase Wright uses ? How do you know he stinks ? Have you ever been in any clubhouse close enough to where he’s been ?
“Razz hasn’t given up back to back to back to back homers yet”
It was April 22, 2007 when Wright gave up those HR to the Red Sox. Over 16 months ago!!! That was the same month that Carl Pavano got injured and needed to have TJ surgery. If Pavano can come back from surgery and pitch for the Yankees 16 months later, then so should Chase. He’s definitely earned the chance to start for the Yankees again.
Drive – well you know how stats can be deceiving (or something). We all know that Sir Sidney has more than once pulled a rabbit out of the hat when he has loaded the bases. We also know that he has had games where he has been hit hard and yet kept the scoring down.
So I guess you have to ask what is more important, getting batters out or keeping batters from scoring runs? I’m not trying to be coy but just pointing out that some pitchers may give up a ton of hits but if they someone minimize the damage in the run-scoring, nobody really cares in the end and their average against really doesn’t matter.
10) Brian Cashman is the truth, the way, and the light.
uh oh, then i’m a sinner and going straight to yankee hell .
lol Louie…
Whatever happened to Colter Bean?
It’s a shame the Yankees could not have claimed Paul Byrd ahead of Boston. Oh wait…
I’ll say again, if Paul Byrd is the winning pitcher the game that eliminates the Yankees from the postseason, Cashman should resign.
Ponson is a respectable #5 guy, but he is miscast as the #3 guy. He has given them a handful of very good starts, and some bombs. If the offense had a pulse during the past 2 months, and the Yankees had any depth in the rotation at the beginning of the season, we would not be worrying about Sydney every 5th day.
Wow Pete someone admitted Hughes and Kenndy haven’t earned anything.About time.
Even Joba hasn’t earned anything until they can great in a full season.
“I’ll say again, if Paul Byrd is the winning pitcher the game that eliminates the Yankees from the postseason, Cashman should resign.”
If he resigned, it would not be because he failed to claim Byrd. It would be because our lineup could not beat Byrd.
Joe G already said PAVANO is in the rotation. Just because this guy used the kind of caution that they’re taking with Joba doesn’t mean this guy isn’t “Major League” ready. Let’s give him a chance/support. Suppose he pitches great. 13 mil next yr. would be a bargain in todays world!
Cashman bet this season on Hughes & Kenndy. They were in the starting rotation on opening day. Then they got hurt, well they are healthy now. Bring them up & you will have 4/5 of the starting rotation intact for the stretch run. If they pitch the Yankees to the playoffs, then Cashman was right to by-pass Santana. If they fail, Cashman should be held accountable & fired! Sink or swim with your decisions Cash.
I completely disagree that Phil Hughes didn’t earn a spot in the rotation this year. Sheesh – if dominating the minors and then pitching very well in September/October doesn’t earn you a shot, then what will? Sending Phil packing to AAA after he basically saved the Yankees season last year would have made no sense and it would not have been right. Would Phil have earned a spot in the rotation in 2009 had he stayed healthy and dominated AAA in 2008? If so, I need that explained to me because at that point all he would have done is to dominate overmatched players. We saw that Phil could pitch and pitch very well in the big leagues when he’s right. Ian Kennedy didn’t deserve a spot in the rotation, but Phil definitely did.
“I’ll say again, if Paul Byrd is the winning pitcher the game that eliminates the Yankees from the postseason, Cashman should resign.â€
If he resigned, it would not be because he failed to claim Byrd. It would be because our lineup could not beat Byrd.
What is amazing is that he would have been a much better sign for the Yankees than he is for the Sox. Over the last three years, Byrd has an ERA of 3.94 vs. Boston (5 starts, 3-1 record), and an ERA of 6.86 vs. the Yanks (4 starts, 0-3 record). He has a pretty good ERA at both Fenway (3.71) and Yankee Stadium (2.57). All in all he is better than either Rasner or Ponson, and certainly more reliable than Pavano. Wouldn’t it have made sense to grab him if only to block Boston?
Give Chase Wright a shot he is 10-2 with a 2.65 era. Zambrano is not the answer, you all know how I feel about Igawa, Aceves cant beat Triple A teams. Lets go with Andy, Moose, Wright, Pavano and Joba/Panson. This year might be lost but do not throw it away with, Zambrano and Igawa.
“So I guess you have to ask what is more important, getting batters out or keeping batters from scoring runs?”
Tisha – I agree with your above point regarding the importance of allowed runs versus baserunners allowed. However, Ponson’s era is 5.46 (significantly *above* league average). He is allowing a lot of baserunners AND a lot of runs.
I believe that Rasner, Ponson, and an assortment of spot starters (e.g., Giese, Igawa) have started about 35 of the Yanks’ 130 games so far this season. That’s more than a quarter of the games!
If only someone like Guardado were available for bullpen help. Oh wait…The Twins got him on a waiver claim for a class A pitcher.
I think Cashman has given up on the season. Another good pitcher the Yankees could have claimed goes to a team with a better record. Not only are the Yankees failing to improve, they are allowing the teams in front of them to get better.
Did the Phillies give up with 6 weeks to go last season? Did the Rockies?
Darrel Rasner is great this season when he has at least 5 days of rest. Someone look up the stats. Maybe what Rasner needs is one extra day of rest.
Pete, I don’t know how you can criticize Pavano’s velocity and then in the same entry suggest Chase Wright because he only had a bad start in Boston. Pavano’s velocity obviously needs to improve, but he does have major league experience and knows how to get batters out. Wright does not.
Did you watch his game at the Stadium vs the Indians last year? He was just as bad as he was in the Boston game, except he was lucky. Most of his pitches were outside of the zone.
He has the rare Kennedy/Hughes disease where you refuse to throw strikes to major league hitters but have no problem throwing to minor leaguers.
This post made me wonder how Jeff Karstens was doing in Pittsburgh. After his two great starts (and wins), he has lost three in a row and given up 12 runs in 16 innings. Doesn’t sound like they lost the next great starter…
I was sitting in the scout section in Trenton on Saturday night, and Zambrano was excellent. He kept everything down, and was able to work on both halves with excellent command all night–very un-Zambrano-like. I couldn’t read anyone’s radar gun, but it looked fast enough to me, and way sharper than the junk the Reading Phillies were tossing up there.
I’m no scout, but that looked really impressive. The only thing I wonder is he seemed to through 75-80% fastballs. I took that as odd, and possibly a sign that he is not ready.