Pitching matchups for the Rays series
-
- September
- 2
Tonight: RHP Mike Mussina (16-7, 3.41) vs. RHP Matt Garza (11-7, 3.53), 7:10, YES
Wednesday: RHP Carl Pavano (2-0, 3.27) vs. RHP Edwin Jackson (11-8, 3.81), 7:10, YES, ESPN
Thursday: RHP Darrell Rasner (5-9, 5.03) vs. LHP Scott Kazmir (10-6, 3.13), 7:10, YES
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The Yankees start the day 12 games behind the Rays in the division and seven games behind Boston in the wild card, now with 25 games left.
If the Yankees stay in rotation, Andy Pettitte, Sidney Ponson and Mike Mussina would face Seattle this weekend.
If Ponson pitches, you have to question what the Yankees are trying to really accomplish. He has lasted only 9.2 innings over his last three starts, giving up 17 earned runs on 24 hits. Ponson has a 6.22 ERA in his 12 starts for the Yankees.
Phil Hughes started yesterday for Scranton and would be available on Saturday. I can understand the Yankees wanting him to stay in the minors and develop. But why wouldn’t you have Alfredo Aceves make that start? Or anybody else?
Ponson gave the Yankees some decent starts when they were still trying to stay in the race. But clearly his time has run its course.
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Peter Abraham
“Two out of three aint bad”
Gone are the days when fans actually looked forward to playing the Rays. I expect the Yankees to show up and fight, though. How they play the Rays for the rest of the season can set the tone for next year.
The Yankees can have a say in how long the Rays stay on top. How badly do the Yankees want to be top dog again? We’ll see…
Mike Ashmore had some interesting stuff today. He talked about Mike Dunn, a converted pitcher getting the call to Trenton instead of going home after the Tampa season was done.
Franklin (Trenton manager?) had nice things to say about Sanchez, Garcia, and Dunn. Said Garcia had nasty stuff and that Sanchez had a really nice 12 to 5 curveball. Did he always have that? I’ve only heard about his fastball.
Lotsa depth. Hurry up so we can get rid of the fringe bullpen guys.
Yikes! That’s 12 to 6.
by fringe, i presume you mean britton/patterson/ramirez? are bruney/marte/robertson/veras keepers? how do you classify albaladejo/coke/cox/melancon? is giese or rasner the long man next year? there are so many options/prospects moving up i.e. arias/dunn/kroenke/nunez/perez/valdez that i can’t even conceive who will be in the 2009 pen IF THEY ARE ALL GIVEN AN EQUAL CHANCE, unlike the farnsworth/hawkins farce!
Here’s hoping the Yanks dont get in the way of the Rays finishing ahead of Boston. The Yanks’ time for moral victories is over.
yanks,
Yes, those are the fringe guys. My Edwar rant is in the last thread. And I wondered out loud if Giese was the best candidate for long man there, too. Although with his shoulder tendinitis I wonder if he needs regular work?
Bringing up guys like Melancon & Sanchez pushes some down the ladder. Britton is gone. D-Rob was good in spots, not so good in others so he’d be good in garbage time.
Looking forward, but working backwards:
-Rivera
-Uber setup guy (Joba this season/TBD next season)
-Marte (not sold on him yet, but he’s looking better. If we stock the bullpen we can be more selective with how he’s used)
-Bruney & Veras (not sure of contract status? Maybe replaced by Sanchez & Melancon?)
-Sanchez & Melancon (see how far up the ladder they can move)
-Giese & Robertson
September should be used for bullpen auditions. Maybe break in some young starters.
Lots of issues to take care of. Posada’s status, 1B, front-line starter at the top of the list. This also means that Cashman’s situation will have to be resolved fairly quickly. At least before the end of the World Series. The good news is that we have bullpen options and our two best starters will be back.
Ponson has earned tenure dammnit!
Phil Coke got all kinds of souvenirs from his first big-league appearance. The one he seemed to enjoy the most? The pink backback filled with candy that the newb relievers have to carry out to the bullpen. haha.
With Ponson still in the rotation and NO PLANS to work Joba up to starter status, GEE, I wonder what the Yankees are planning for ?.,,,,would ya think…NO PLAYOFFS ?…If the Yankees WERE looking to get into and do well in the playoffs and since they DO have a full month before they start and COULD work Joba up again in innings so that he is ready for a “first series”….they would be doing just that. This GENIUS move ensures that if the DO catch a miracle and make it into the playoffs that their rotation INCLUDES a Ponson, but NOT a Joba…..EINSTEINS are running the Yankees, I tell ya….COMPLETE EINSTEINS !
Go Yankees!!!!!!!!!!! beat those rays and give us first place.
this is simple. they have no chance at the playoffs, so they are just going ride Ponson out.
why is everyone letting themselves get all worked up over it?
Um maybe because no one actually cares to see Ponson pitch? If the yankees are out of it then why not start Aceves, Kennedy, etc?
TurnTwo—- People are getting worked up because when guy has an ERA of 6.22 after a dozen starts and you have September call ups there is simply no reason to keep sending him out there. The last three games (15.83 ERA) have been simply awful. It matters not if you are ten games or thirty…. there’s no excuse for continuing to accept this level of performance.
If they want to keep Igawa, Hughes and Wright in AAA for the playoffs that’s fine. Send Giese out there. Send Aceves out there. Send Stottlemyre out there before Big Sid gets another start!
As for the ‘09 bullpen I’m only convinced of Rivera, Marte, Veras and Bruney… but that’s a good start. Coke will be interesting to watch this month and Melancon has earned a long look in the spring. They should find a second lefty one way or the other, so Ramirez and Robertson may be competing for one job. It’ll be interesting. I would think Sanchez would be 2010.
the offense next year:
(based on one trade i’m really yearning for…)
trade cano + kennedy + solid prospect for matt holliday.
good chance the rockies would listen, as it is doubtful they can extend holliday who becomes a FA.
in addition, trade damon and matsui for prospects, or a solid defensive catcher / reliever / whatever we can get.
the line up:
CF – gardner
SS – jeter
DH – abreu (a good professional hitter, terrible in the OF)
3B – a-rod
RF – holliday
LF – nady
1B – posada
2B – orlando hudson
C – molina / platoon with another defensive catcher.
4th OF – melky (in the wings – a-jax)
this line up can tear up the AL. it’s perfectly fine to have in the 8 and 9 spot players who are defensive by orientation.
by getting rid of cano you change the culture back to gritty players who fight every at-bat and every play, a-la gardner. the defense becomes much better all over the field.
holliday is a beast. it’s no coors field effect with him.
redsoxfan – if you can’t get first place on your own, don’t look to the Yanks to get it for ya. losers.
Aceves is one thing. i can understand if he gets a start or two to end the season. there is an interest there to see how he handles MLB hitting… he’s a little more advanced as a pitcher, both physically and mentally than Hughes and IPK, and the number of other young guns in the system.
but IPK and Hughes arent going to be handed over starts. from what it sounds like, they are both back at square one, and they are going to have to earn their way back.
it also appears, well to me anyway, that they are hesitant about giving them another start before they get a chance to rebuild their confidence and regain full command of their pitches. i really doubt you are going to see the young guys working on their stuff at the MLB level.
and honestly, i dont plan on seeing Chase Wright get more than a couple innings after the Scranton playoffs, either… let him finish his season strong, and come back in the spring on a positive note.
dont you think if the yankees were going to make a move, and bring up Chase Wright, or someone like him, they wouldve done it a month ago when it still mattered?
what’s the sense of doing it now?
and for those who throw out Igawa as an option, just stop it. seriously.
if there is one thing thats been made apparent by Cashman and the front office, they’ve made their decisions, and have a plan and they are going to stick to it, no matter what backlash that might entail from fans to finish the season.
Cano’s answer to questions about his recent defensive play (as reported by Kepner in the Times):
“For me, it’s been great,†Canó said of his defense. “Just a few mistakes I’ve been making lately.â€
Regardless of whatever “plan” they have (since just about all of their “plans” have failed this year, sticking to it seems foolish to me), there is no logical reason to keep Ponson in the rotation.
At this point, just put Aceves in and see what he can do. Ponson isn’t going to be with the Yankees next year. Aceves may be.
Hughes and Kennedy? Neither guy has earned another shot to NY yet and I don’t blame them for not calling them up.
Aceves? You could make the argument, aside from Zach McAllister (who is in A Ball), Aceves has been their best minor league starter this season.
Since he is on the major league roster now, its not like they are trying to hide him or protect him.
Just put him in the rotation for Ponson and see what he’s got. If he shows he has something, perhaps it opens up more off-season options for them.
I think we’ll see Aceves at least once this month, more if he doesn’t embarrass himself.
i dont doubt they’ll give Aceves a better look as the season winds down, like i said, SJ.
but this outrage about Ponson just seems silly to me.
“Regardless of whatever “plan†they have (since just about all of their “plans†have failed this year, sticking to it seems foolish to me), there is no logical reason to keep Ponson in the rotation.”
and the logical reason, at least to the organization, is that there isnt anyone better suited to take the rotation spot.
you may disagree with them, but that’s what they believe.
The story goes that in 2004, someone in the Sux clubhouse took a copy of a column in one of the Sux papers and put in on the locker of every Sux player the day after the Yankees went up 3-0 in the ALCS. The column had alleged quotes by Gary Sheffield saying the Sux players had no heart and no character and really didn’t want to win. The reason I say “alleged” is because the story also goes that Sheffield never said those things and some loser reporter made it all up to fire up the Sux players. We all know the ending to the story.
Well if I were in the Yankee organization I would make darned sure that I got my hands on google-eyed Lupica’s column from today’s Daily News and put it on every Yankee locker. (In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if it was that sux suckophant himself, Lupica, who circulated the quotes in 2004!)
Anyway, here’s the column for those of you who have not yet seen it: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/09/01/2008-09-01_these_yankees_are_just_not_good_or_tough.html
And about 2004 – everyone seems to forget that the Yankees basically limped through that season with their rotation down more than up and were considered lucky to have made it that far, seeing that Kevin Brown decided to call it a season in September of that year by breaking his hand punching out a wall. And 2004 was the one year that not one starter in the Sux rotation was DLd even once. So big whoop that the healthy team overcame the one with nonstop injuries. Duh! It’s just sad that it happened the way it did in the end. So it took the alleged Sheffield comments to wake up the team that should have been in first place the entire season but still had to find its way in via the wild card.
With as many arms as the Yankees have, they could piece together a starter if need be. The season is pretty much done so why not see what the minor league arms can do against ML batters?
Definitely agree about the outrage on Ponson. He is what he is. A journeyman guy who has reached his limit of effectiveness.
I would just like to see them use the final month of the season to try some guys and see what they can do.
Obviously, you aren’t going to make defninitive judgments on players in September. That’s never a recommended strategy.
However, you still have to play the games and it seems prudent to me to use guys who may actually have a chance to be in NY next season.
Indignation seems to be the flavor of the month. Like there’s been some kind of trickery, instead of just being limits to what some guys can do no matter how they try.
I would think after the ineffectiveness of IPK and Hughes along with their injuries, that the Yanks have learned not to rush prospects until they’re truly ready. Not because we have a dork pitching for the Yanks every 5 days. Does it really matter now? 7 games back with 20+ left to play? Honestly? Why blow up your prospects for the sake of the fans not wanting to see Ponson? I would think they care more about getting these kids to right themselves mentally and physically and not take any chances of them turning into Prior/Wood/every other Yankee prospect in the past 10 years – mental case, as we should as well. These kids are the future of the Yankee dynasty’s. Missing one playoff year isn’t going to turn this franchise into the Mariners. Do you really think Cashman cares at this point that fans don’t want to see Ponson pitch? You blow up these prospects now and who are you going to throw out there next year? Think Joba is going to throw 200 innings next year? He’ll be lucky to throw 130. Hughes needs another full year of AAA to get his head on straight and his command back. Cashman doesn’t what Hughes to turn into Homer Bailey. Hughes was once the top prospect in all of baseball, they’re not going to throw him out there just because Ponson is scheduled to pitch to the Angels. At this point, you honestly can’t say he or IPK would be any better. And if either of them gives up 10 runs in 2 innings, how far do you think that’ll set them back? This team is what it is… and there’s no ace to the rescue now. Pavano had to pitch a 1 run game to beat the jays fer cripes sake. One 13 run game isn’t going to salvage this pitiful Yankee offense. Pathetic offense/no run support + fragile prospects + one of the best teams in the MLB = no Hughes or Kennedy.
Winter wish to be seen in tabloid back pages in bold print :
YANKS DEAL CANO, BRITTON, AND MIRANDA TO BRAVES FOR 1B CASEY KOTCHMAN.
digest the deal . . .
“I would just like to see them use the final month of the season to try some guys and see what they can do.
However, you still have to play the games and it seems prudent to me to use guys who may actually have a chance to be in NY next season.”
absolutely agree. i think we saw the start of this with Coke yesterday, who looked good against some really good tigers hitters.
it would be great if Coke could turn out to be a useful and effective left arm out of the bullpen come next season… if you can pair Marte and an effective Coke in the BP, i cant remember the last time the Yankees had two solid LHP options in the bullpen.
Trisha,
Even you can’t spin blowing a 3-0 lead in the ALCS to the Red Sox as less as something less than a disaster for the Yankees.
Since that time, the two organizations have gone in entirely different directions.
The Yankees have been worse every year since 2004, while the Red Sox have 2 World Series titles. That ain’t good.
Injuries are just excuses. That’s all they are. In the past, the Yankees never used the injuries to explain their seasons.
You know what they did? They plugged in guys and they went about their business. They played the game the right way and won their fair share of games.
For whatever reason, the 2008 Yankees haven’t been wired this way.
I agree with Turntwo that the outrage over Ponson is pretty silly. Especially since there’s no guarantee that Ponson will actually make the start.
The Yankees have said a lot of things this year that turn out not to be true.
People were outraged that Ponson was even a Yankee to begin with and he then managed to turn in a few quality starts for the Yankees.
I get it though, right now people here just need something to be miserable about. I’m sure later today the outrage will go right back to Cano though.
Here’s one thing that I don’t understand however. A lot of people want the Yankees to get rid of Cano, because he’s “lazy, not a gamer, etc”. Why would any team want to trade anything good for a player like Cano then?
“The season is pretty much done”
My guess is that “pretty much” are the operative words in that sentence and unless and until the season is really done you will see the Yankees continue to manage and play like they still have a chance. Teams usually don’t throw minor league arms into that mix unless they have no other option. If you don’t see it it means the Yankees feel better riding the horses they’ve been riding than risking riding one who can’t help but know the inordinate pressure to win every game.
Just my guess on this stuff.
Ponson has no real future with the Yankees except a possible spring training invitation at low expections.
Time to see what Aceves has for major league demeanor.
Not that anyone cares but me, but if the Yankees let Ponson start on Saturday, I am totally done with them this year. It is plain stupid, Girardi is a joke of a manager and this team is just painful to follow any more. 137 games of this crap is more than enough for me.
I agree re: Coke.
In a perfect world, if he can emerge as another lefty in the ‘pen, its a big positive for them in 2009.
A bullpen of: Mo, Melancon, Veras, Marte, Bruney, Coke and a long guy, has some promise. It also is cost effective. Only Mo and Marte are pricey guys. Precisely the way you build a bullpen.
Obviously, a lot depends on health, effectiveness, etc. But, if they can put together a ‘pen like that, its going to fortify their starting rotation.
Hey, by the way as good a season as Pedroia is having statistically it’s no better than the season Cano had last year.
Last year was when all the dump Cano talk started and he had a year identical to the year that Pedroia is having this year and people are mentioning Pedroia as an MVP candidate.
Double standard? Yes. I wonder why it’s a double standard however. Although I can think of one MAJOR difference between the two.
Drive 4-5 — Would you really want them to lay down for the Rays? Why would you EVER want them to lose the edge of trying to win? So it’s been a crappy season. It happens. You want it to end on a “roll over for the D-Rays so the Sox don’t win” note? What kind of tone do you think that sets going into next year? Ability to lose on demand? Sheesh.
sunny615 is thinking into next year and beyond. Still, there’s gotta be at least ONE youngster they can put out there instead of Ponson with the makeup to tough it out if he gets shelled. If not, what does that say about the mental side of player development?
“137 games of this crap is more than enough for me.”
But yet you’re going to wait until Saturday and game 142 before you decide you’re done. lol
sunny, exactly.
and not for nothing, but why ruin a player’s value, like Chase Wright, who’s come back so strong this past season, to get him on start in September because fans dont want to see Ponson pitch?
if Cashman wants to include him in a trade this offseason, he can prob package him together with a couple other prospects and get a nice player in return.
he comes up and gets bombed in his one start this month, and that value could take a big hit.
“Even you can’t spin blowing a 3-0 lead in the ALCS to the Red Sox as less as something less than a disaster for the Yankees.”
I repeat again. The Sux came back and played like Titans after the columns were put on their lockers. I repeat this again also – it was jocular that it took that to wake them up since they had the healthy players, the non DLd starters, the rested (relative to the course of a non DLd rotation) bullpen, and no good excuse to let the Yankees pass them into first place, other than the Yankees were the better team. Some bad circumstances really put the Yankees in a bind and they played better than the circumstances should have seen them play – until they didn’t.
And I’ll repeat finally that it was a tough way to have it all end. But under the circumstances I find a lot of solace that obviously you cannot. Not that it made it easy to face that 4 and out. Just easier.
Said another way, SJ, if the Yankees were the team who had not suffered injuries and ended up going 4 and out to a team who had limped through the season with injuries, I would have felt a heck of a lot worse.
Different strokes for different folks.
SJ I would love for every Yankee player to have to read Lupica’s column. Then I would love to see the result. If they still played like dogmeat, maybe I would be finally convinced that they had nothing.
Ray,
Because everybody in sports thinks they can “fix” a player. Its a universal thing and its true in every sport.
One team’s “problem” is another teams “solution”.
When a team trades for a guy who struggled in a previous place, we hear the old cliche, “a change of scenery will do him good”.
The key is determined when you trade a guy. A year too early or a year too late. Never easy to figure out.
I think that’s the decision the Yankees will have with Cano in the off-season. Not going to be an easy call.
He would make it easier if he would take his head out of his butt enough to actually play solid baseball. But, that seems to be asking a lot of him these days.
“SJ I would love for every Yankee player to have to read Lupica’s column. Then I would love to see the result. If they still played like dogmeat, maybe I would be finally convinced that they had nothing.”
players arent going to all of a sudden win 20 games in a row, or decide to hit .400, etc, because a columnist wrote a degrading article about that team to sell papers.
And this season is going to be the season of deals… I don’t believe anyone is not going to get considered if the move “makes sense” to Cashman – Cano included. And like TurnTwo said, if these prospects continue to thrive, their value can only help the Yankees trade for a solid player in return.
SJ,
I still find it hard to believe that anybody would trade good value for a lazy player but if the Yankees can get good value for him then I’m all for it.
I wasn’t heartbroken when the Yankees managed to get Alex for Soriano so I won’t be heartbroken if they get a good player in return for Cano.
“Ponson has a 6.22 ERA in his 12 starts for the Yankees”
A poster on this blog has informed us that such stats are fine for a fifth starter. Just sayin’
Newspaper columns aren’t what inspired the Red Sox in 2004. Nor is it going to inspire the Yankees this season.
These guys don’t care about that stuff. Fans and talk show hosts care about that stuff.
The Gary Sheffield stuff didn’t inspire the Red Sox. They just hated Sheffield enough to enjoy rubbing it in his face after the fact.
Trisha –
You have got to be kidding me with that rationalization of the 2004 ALCS. Whether or not that “story” about the column is true, that series was the Yanks’ to take, and they blew it. Do you really think something written by some columnist motivated that team? Come on. Excuses are lame. It’s about accountability. There is no solace to be had in some story about a column, or in excuses about injuries.
I wonder if the Sox “take solace” in the fact that when they lost in 2003, it had a lot to do with a pair of steroid-aided homers from Giambi off Pedro. Without those, that Game 7 win probably never happens. But there’s no solace there. It’s in the books as a crushing loss for them, an historic win for the Yanks. The reverse is true for 2004.
i bet even livan hernandez could better that hehe!
Joel Sherman had some interesting ideas the other day in his column. Shane Victorino is a guy I’d love to see the yanks get. Maybe Hughes and another prospect?
Here’s a question – Joba pitched about 100 innings this year… what’s the plan for next year? Reliever again and stretched out again? Start the season in AAA with innings limits?
Ray,
I may be off on this but, I think the only reason why Girardi hasn’t gone nuts publicly (he has privately) on Cano is that he doesn’t want to damage Cano’s rep enough to hurt any off-season trade talk.
Doesn’t mean they will trade him. I’m just saying that if he goes public about his frustrations re: his play, it muddies the trade waters.
That said, he’s got to do better than, “I’m just focusing on the positives”, when asked about his play.
That stuff may play in KC. It doesn’t play in NY.
When Girardi was in Florida, one of his criticisms by Marlins management was that he was “too hard” on his players in the media. Ironically, the players didn’t have a problem with it. Marlins management did. We have seen the exact opposite from him in NY.
I don’t know if the Yankees told him to tone it down. Perhaps, he has done this on his own.
Either way, he doesn’t come off well and sounding like a good leader. Its too polyanna and that rings insincere.
You can be cocky, smug, even a jerk to the NY media and they will deal with it. If you are insincere, they will BBQ you and rightfully so.
“Do you really think something written by some columnist motivated that team?”
Oh yeah.
Brian Cashman wouldnt trade Phil Hughes for the best lefty on the planet, and now he’s going to trade him for a CF who cant play defense?
i dont think he should be opposed to moving Hughes if they sign a couple veterans into the staff, or if you can acquire a great player in return. but lets get real here.
Well the good news is that our two best get the first two games in Tampa, Mussina and Pavano.
Phil Hughes and ANOTHER prospect for Shane Victorino?
Please tell me that’s a joke.
The fact that Carl Pavano is even in the rotation tells you all you need to know about why this year is such a failure.
When the season’s over, there’s a decent chance the Yanks starting nine will have six guys with .300 batting averages, the exceptions being Giambi (.250-ish) Mr Second Half (looks like he may end up in the .270s and the backup/fill-in catcher(s) at either .230 or .280.
This just goes to show you not primarily the lack of timeliness of the hitting (of course people will center on A-Rod) but the importance of injuries which took verious bats out of the lineup for most of the year.
Pudge COULDA hit closer to .300 also he wasn’t here til the end.
Cano SHOULDA hit over .300.
Posada WOULDA have hit somewhere close to .300.
(with either catcher in place all year, that makes 8 guys hitting .300)
You can’t blame Molina, he’s just not that kind of hitter. You sign him to play good D in a backup role, and accept that he’s about a .230 hitter. In that regard, Molina may ahve saved the team an even worse place in the standings. Pudge & Nady weren’t even in the mix until after the all-star break. Where the team is now just isn’t their faults.
On the other hand:
Giambi is hitting about 50-80 points below what was expected of him when he struck it rich. Then there’s the way he’s doing it: HR, BB a few singles and a ton of outs into the shift. What did they Yanks have at 1B in his place? It only goes from bad to worse.
Melky was in there most of the year but he really took a step (or two) backwards in his development.
Cano’s second half tear (which he should sustain closer to the whole year) only amounted to a few weeks. This year his first half slump outweighed his second half tear.
To me, those three are the biggest problems with the lineup this year, in the order I listed them.
Damon was hurt here and there Matsui was hurt more. Cant really blame them for that although the team needs them and pay them to be healthy. But their replacements weren’t much to speak of until Nady came along. Nady’s a good player. The replacements were not, at least yet.
So, injuries to Damon, Matsui, Posada and to some extent a few other guys are partly to blame (not player’s blame) but that’s part of the game and the rest of the team has to pick them up.
Players not picking them up who should have (many various) players not picking their own butts up (Melky, Cano) players just not being good enough or not good enough yet or not good enough anymore (Betemit, GIAMBI, Gardner, Christian, Sexson etc) are more to blame than just A-Rod.
Not to be an A-Rod defender (I totally agree he sure has stunk in the clutch this year) but unless you realize the greater extent of the overall problem with this team there’s no way to realize an effective solution to it. It’s not just A-Rod. And pointing the finger at him doesn’t help either.
That’s not even getting into the injuries to the pitching staff. Just Joba and Wang coming back solves 40% of the problems there. They would have picked up the slack from Kennedy & Hughes not being ready if they hadn’t been hurt. With that right there, the team might still have been contending. But the lineup should have been there to pick those guys up too. Even though at the end it’ll look like most of the team was batting over .300, the lineup has fallen flat beyond just the injuries.
“The fact that Carl Pavano is even in the rotation tells you all you need to know about why this year is such a failure.”
True dat.
for the person that wants to trade cano + prospects for matt holliday:
holliday’s home / road splits for his career (2500+ ab’s)
home: .363/.429/.658
away: .278/.344/.454
raymagnetic ,,,,no I am DONE right now…IF the clowns in the Front Office OR Idiot Girardi decide to wake up and start a pitcher that has ANY NAME other than Ponson or Igawa on Saturday, then I will suffer through some more….But for Sir Fat@$$ to toe the rubber again AND having the Razzinator also in the rotation is pushing us much closer to a .500 or below final season record…and THAT, my friend, is MUCH more than I care to experience…
Double standard? Yes. I wonder why it’s a double standard however. Although I can think of one MAJOR difference between the two.
What’s the major difference??? One that I can see is that his teammate had an otherworldly season and won it. Further, he had another teammate in the Top 5 and two more who finished in the Top 15. I was surprised to see Cano got no votes at all.
This year Hamilton had it going on, but has faded a bit in the 2nd half and is on a bad team. Excellent arguments can be made for both Quentin and Morneau. Beyond that, Youklis and perhaps Pedroia have the most compelling cases that I can see.
Different years, bring different types of candidates. Cano going overlooked in ‘07 was largely based on the achievements of his own teammates moreso than any slight.
If a team needs a newspaper to get motivated then there is obviously something very wrong. Lupica hasn’t written anything worth repeating in years. He’s sort of the Wilson Betemit of NY sports reporting. He covers it all, but nothing really good. Mark Feinsand is alright but IMO he lost some credibility when he tried to torpedo the all star game with his Papelbon story. Maybe Pete can use the strength of this blog to help propel himself to a paper with a higher circulation.
“The fact that Carl Pavano is even in the rotation tells you all you need to know about why this year is such a failure.”
Not really. Facts like they have been one of the worst defensive teams in the game and the offense has massively underachieved were far more telling.
Cano isn’t going anywhere. Stop measuring Cano’s effort by his batting average and errors in the field. It’s nonsensical. That’s how we measure a baseball player’s effort all of a sudden. Pathetic.
You know why Cano isn’t going anywhere? Easy, because the Yankees want Cano to be their number 3 hitter down the road. So unless another team is willing to part with a player who is a solid #3 hitter in a lineup, and has batted around .340 before, I doubt the Yankees will give up on their guy because of one bellow average season.
I cannot truly believe how some of you talk about Robinson Cano. I don’t know if some of you hate him because he’s younger than you and makes more money, or whatever, but the guy hasn’t shown streaks of brilliance, he’s shown SEASONS of brilliance. How can it even be a discussion to trade him because of one bellow average season? Where are all the trade Jeter advocates? And where are all the questions about Jeter’s effort? Cano’s effort gets measured by batting average and # of errors committed and Jeter’s doesn’t?
We usually measure people like A-Rod’s worth on playoff performance, Cano doesn’t get the same treatment? Who was the only guy who showed up in the playoffs last year?? Robinson Cano. And he’s 25.
And here’s where people lose me, they can so easily identify that Cano doesn’t care, etc. There has never been ANY indication that Cano doesn’t care. Yeah, he loves to have fun and party, but I never see Robinson Cano in the news for getting arrested for drunk driving or something. Who knows, with all the unfair critisizm, maybe it’ll drive him to do something like that.
It’s really sad. Such a great player getting so much amateur criticism for having an off season. Oh and don’t forget his contract, because we all know when he was offered the $30 million or whatever, he should have rejected it. Because that’s what the Lohud blog posters would have wanted.
“Different years, bring different types of candidates. Cano going overlooked in ‘07 was largely based on the achievements of his own teammates moreso than any slight.”
Fredo,
Not only was Cano overlooked but he didn’t receive one vote last year. In ‘06 he received 3 points TOTAL for an even better season.
Just makes me wonder why the “scrappy” player is getting all the accolades while a player who for two years in a row put up virtually identical numbers gets no accolades at all.
But I’m sure it’s all because different years bring different types of candidates.
“If a team needs a newspaper to get motivated then there is obviously something very wrong.”
I don’t disagree with you actually. I guess I just hoped something would jump start this low battery,
About Lupica, I think he is the world’s biggest joke on sports, or at least one of them. He hates the Yankees and all the poop he poops out smells the same. I was just looking for motivation, not anything worth reading!
thebiglead.com did an interview with John Heyman. Here’s one question and answer from it:
“Right now, who is the most overrated player in baseball? At this moment, I have to say Robinson Cano, who is a great but still doesn’t get it; he should be following the lead of Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez, but instead he hangs out with some very wrong people and doesn’t always hustle.”
Cano is the most overrated in all of baseball. Not sure I’m buing that. Who does Cano hang out with on the team that are “very wrong people”? Melky? Abreu? Betemit? I have to believe he doesn’t know who Cano is hanging out with off the field so he has to mean on the field.
buing= buying
“Who knows, with all the unfair critisizm, maybe it’ll drive him to do something like that.”
Why has the criticism been unfair???? He’s had a bad year in every phase of the game. He failed miserably to meet expectations. Granted, he’s set a high standard for himself thru past performance, but he’s nonetheless had a bad year and deserves to be called on it just like everyone else.
Two other points:
1) I’m with you on not trading Cano, especially now when his value is at it’s lowest. Simply no way they can get the value they should for someone like him at this point.
2) He is the very definition of streaky. Has been since the day he got here.
“Right now, who is the most overrated player in baseball? At this moment, I have to say Robinson Cano, who is a great but still doesn’t get it;”
I used to respect Heyman, but I don’t really anymore… He knows what’s going on inside Cano’s head? He knows for a fact that Cano “doesn’t get it”? How? When Cano misses a ground ball, he doesn’t get it? When Derek Jeter makes a bad throw, does he not get it?
It isn’t like Cano is pulling Manny Ramirez stunts. What Manny did was “not getting it”. But Cano has never done anything to harm anyone, which is why this “doesn’t get it” stuff is hard to contemplate.
At this moment, I have to say Robinson Cano, who is a great but still doesn’t get it; he should be following the lead of Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez, but instead he hangs out with some very wrong people and doesn’t always hustle.
Pat, for all of the posters who wanted to be first-in-line purveyors of the great Heyman when Heyman was talking about Robby being dissed in the clubhouse, they are also stuck with the fact that Heyman has called him “a great”. My take is that people here weren’t wanting to get rid of Robby because of who he hung out with or his lack of hustle (though some have called that a problem) but because they just didn’t buy he was “all that”.
Well eat it up folks! “A great” ain’t too shabby.
“Why has the criticism been unfair???? He’s had a bad year in every phase of the game. He failed miserably to meet expectations. Granted, he’s set a high standard for himself thru past performance, but he’s nonetheless had a bad year and deserves to be called on it just like everyone else.”
No no, you misunderstood me. I agree, he does deserve to be called out for not playing well. What he doesn’t deserve is the mind-reader treatment where the mindreaders are able to calculate that Cano doesn’t care, Cano doesn’t try, and Cano doesn’t care about winning. THAT’S not fair. Saying Cano has had a bad year, of course you should say that. Anyone can see that just by looking at his stats. But then some people look at the stats and create the “effort” column in their heads.
“2) He is the very definition of streaky. Has been since the day he got here.”
I can’t agree with that. I don’t think a you can be streaky and hit .340 or .306, I just don’t.
“I can’t agree with that. I don’t think a you can be streaky and hit .340 or .306, I just don’t.”
have you watched the last 2 seasons?
For the most part, the players don’t bother reading anything written about them unless their agent or PR person brings it to their attention.
An article isn’t going to motivate a team despite the stories to the contrary. The Yankees are what they are this year, and sad as it is to see, no papering the clubhouse with Lupica’s article is going to change it. The only thing that will change how the Yankees look is the players playing to their potential.
“have you watched the last 2 seasons?”
Yes, and I’ve seen hot periods, and I’ve seen slumps. But you can’t go cold for a month and hot for another and hit .306. There has to be middle ground. This year? Not so much, because it is an off-year for him.
I feel Cano’s fate depends on Cashman’s status. If Cash is re-signed, Cano is safe as Cash is not about to admit he was wrong in giving Robbie that contract. If Cash is out of here though, all bets are off and Cano offers will be heard.
Maybe Cano and Castillo had some sort of “NY/2B pact of ineptitude” going into this season.
“So unless another team is willing to part with a player who is a solid #3 hitter in a lineup, and has batted around .340 before”
I believe Freddy Sanchez could be attained.
Freddy BA the last 3 years:
2006: .344
2007: .304
2008: .257
Cano BA the last 3 years:
2006: .342
2007: .306
2008: .268
So, I guess that Freddy Sanchez should be a super star the rest of his career too?
I guess I’m agnostic on whether or not to trade Cano. If trading him brings back a top starter, 1B or CF, I could certainly live with slightly less offense from 2B. The Yankees better be busy this offseason though, there is much work to be done to get this team ultra competitive again.
I agree on Aceves though. heck I’d even like to see Coke get a start if he could still pitch that many innings. Of course, the next week will dictate when the future starts around here.
“Yes, and I’ve seen hot periods, and I’ve seen slumps. But you can’t go cold for a month and hot for another and hit .306.”
wouldnt the definition of a streaky player be someone who alternates between hot periods and cold slumps?
“So, I guess that Freddy Sanchez should be a super star the rest of his career too?”
Being that one guy is 25(Cano) and one guy is 30 (Sanchez) then I would say no. But thanks for playing.
One is 25 and the other is 30, big difference. That is why Cano could fetch one something and Sanchez can’t.
I am not saying to trade Cano either, but if this team needs to be shaken up, which IMO it does, then no one is safe.
“wouldnt the definition of a streaky player be someone who alternates between hot periods and cold slumps?”
Yes. But his career numbers show that he’s simply a slow starter who heats up in June – September and not a guy who alternates hot and cold months.
“Yes. But his career numbers show that he’s simply a slow starter who heats up in June – September and not a guy who alternates hot and cold months.”
i guess perhaps frustratingly inconistent would be more accurate technically than streaky.
but then isnt it more productive to have a player who can hit April-Sept, even at a slightly lesser clip, and not just July-Sept?
“Being that one guy is 25(Cano) and one guy is 30 (Sanchez) then I would say no. But thanks for playing.”
im going to give them the benefit of the doubt here and say that i read that post as being wildly sarcastic in nature.
but i could be wrong.
“Just makes me wonder why the “scrappy†player is getting all the accolades while a player who for two years in a row put up virtually identical numbers gets no accolades at all.
But I’m sure it’s all because different years bring different types of candidates.”
Once again, the Yankees put 4 players in the Top 15 of that vote. Further, Cano played only 3/4 of a season (122 games). FWIW, Pedroia’s season is playing as a slightly lesser, yet reasonable, facsimile of what Jeter put up in ‘06 when he was a runner up……..and should have been the winner.
Sigh. Are we still talking about Cano? All the Yankees are underrated because their team is stacked with good players. Very difficult to stand out for MVP consideration. Alex does it, but he’s the alleged “best” player in baseball. He’s also propped up in the media so he can be knocked down.
As for Pedroia and Youkilis getting consideration for the big awards, that’s fine. They deserve it.
Getting back to Robbie. You give him another chance. Let him go home and work with the father. See if he can come back with verve and focus, ready to contribute to the team mission in ‘09. There should be no grace period or slow starts allowed. Action should be swift and harsh. The guy’s been good for the most part, but the Yankees aren’t going to put up with it for much longer. You don’t give up on Robbie because of a slow first half or a handfull of boneheaded plays. Give him a chance to grow up at the very least.
Dfox:
My apologies on the misinterpretation. I concur the the wannabe mindreaders are full of nothing more than shi………er, speculation and that is not always fair.
As a misplaced Yankee fan living in Texas, it’s always a treat when another station picks up a game. You guys don’t know how lucky you are! If I lived in the NYC area I’d probably watch every other game on YES. Instead, I have to wait for big-name matchups or the pennant race. –So why, oh why, do they always pick a night when Ponson pitches? He’s been the starter in the last five or six games (Or more! I’ve lost count!) on ESPN and TBS; I’ve missed Moose pitching by one day each time..
Fredo,
I’m not discounting Pedroia’s year, he’s having a great year. I just find it funny that people want to dump Cano after he’s had two seasons as good as the one that Pedroia is putting up and he’s never even been mentioned as an MVP candidate.
I just think it’s a double standard when it comes to Robinson Cano.
mel – also want to consider over some period of time how he does without his BFF around all the time to get in trouble with
Winter wish to be seen in tabloid back pages in bold print :
YANKS DEAL CANO, BRITTON, AND MIRANDA TO BRAVES FOR 1B CASEY KOTCHMAN.
digest the deal . . .”
I threw up in the process. Why in the hell would you trade Cano for a 1B. Cano has just as much ability as Kotchman with the bat and plays a better position. Even straight up, it is a pretty bad deal. Furthermore, the Braves don’t have a replacement first baseman which is why they wanted Kotchman in the Tex deal and we don’t have any replacement for Cano. Also, Cano + whoever we get for first base is better than Kotchman and first and whoever we would get to play 2B. Maybe I am wrong but it is stupid to trade a 2B for a 1B.
Rishi,
And really, do you think the Yankees are fed up with Cano? Or is it the fans?
If the Yankee FO wanted to trade Cano, why leak bad stuff about him?
He’s got to clean up his defense for sure, but all I know is that he’s come through with some big hits this season.
“I just think it’s a double standard when it comes to Robinson Cano.”
Gotcha. I respectfully disagree as I think Cano’s achievements over ‘06 and ‘07 in particular were widely recognized throughout the game. More importantly, they were recognized by his organziation who rewarded him with security in the form of a long term contract.
Should Cano have gotten some recognition in the MVP voting last year??? Maybe. But again, on his own team he was light years behind Arod and Posada and he’s made his bones to this point laregely as a #7 hitter (how many MVP’s come from the 7 hole). When he assumes more reponsibility in the lineup as a top end or middle of the order bat, a career path which many believe he is on, then I think we see him as a more viable candidate.
“If the Yankee FO wanted to trade Cano, why leak bad stuff about him?”
but when has the FO actually leaked something bad about him?
honest question.
People may be more critical of Cano because he is not self-critical. As I noted above (pardon the repetition for those who read the comment section before posting) here is his quote after making two especially egregious errors in three days:
Cano’s answer to questions about his recent defensive play (as reported by Kepner in the Times):
“For me, it’s been great,†Canó said of his defense. “Just a few mistakes I’ve been making lately.â€
This is the Kennedy/Girardi school of public relations.
It inevitably provokes more criticism when there is no acknowledgement of problems and mistakes.
Hey Pete (and other Cano haters), this is for you: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/09/01/2008-09-01_robinson_cano_fires_back_at_critics_afte.html
I’d much rather see Joba and Aceves split a start than see Ponson again. Rasner vs. Kazmir could be hard to watch too, and how come no getaway day? Sure, Tampa will draw for this series, but the Yanks have to fly red eye to the West coast? Shenanigans!
Trading Cano after this season would be a terrible mistake. He’s shown potential to be one of the top hitting 2B in baseball and he’s signed to an attractive contract. He’s had a down year, and needs to mature, but giving up on him is not the answer. Trading him for Matt Holliday would make me sick. Holliday is closing in on 30, and is an average offensive outfielder outside of Colorado. Cano by himself should get more than Holliday, especially considering he is soon to be a free agent. Trading Cano, Hughes, or Kennedy after their bad seasons would be a terrible mistake.
This is the best starting pitching free agent class in a long time. The Yankees should use the available money on 2 of the 3 top guys (CC, Sheets, Burnett) and let Moose and Andy go. A rotation of CC, Wang, Joba, Burnett, and Hughes would take the pressure off of our hitters and they would be able to produce.
Incidentally, I am not advocating trading Cano on account of this foolishness, any more than I am advocating firing Girardi. Just pointing out that clumsy public relations faux pas can contribute to the perception that someone doesn’t get it.
Hey Pete, I found this funny pic u might want a look at.
http://drunkathlete.com/2008/07/17/jason-giambi-and-jim-beam.aspx
It is Big G chugging down a Jack Daniels at a bar.
Turn Two,
Just whispers here and there. And SJ44 may have posted something yesterday. Didn’t really read the whole thing (sorry, SJ!)
If you come to the TROP
Your record will DROP
hahahaha
Sheets left the game after throwing less than 60 pitches. If he’s injured please, please for the love of the blog leave him off your front-line starter wishlists!
CC and Burnett. That’s it. Burnett’s injury prone, too. But he’s been healthy of late AND he’s proven he can pitch in the AL East.
So the consensus is that DFox just doesn’t get it but that we shouldn’t question his heart?
Just kidding.
Sorry, mel.
Jamal,
Unfortunately that article just contributes to the impression of terminal obliviousness on Cano’s part. He’s made more errors than anyone else on the team, and he is several years past being a rookie. People won’t take his comments seriously until he faces up to reality. And as for leaving because the writers were talking to AR first instead of him, talk about living in a parallel universe!
The latest promo from the Chamber of Commerce:
“The Trop, where even a historic season can’t stop the attendance drop!”
Then why is attendance up this year?
Oh wait, you’re a New York fan. READING IS FUNDAMENTAL
hahahaha
Nick in SF,
I’m staying out of this one. Don’t want to upset any potential FA.
Amazing that the Rays one single fan would come here to troll.
mel, good thinking. If this got back to Joba, we’d all be screwed.
And Rays Fan in Tampa is right; zero + anybody = rise in attendance.
Things sure are looking up when your Ace Kazmir is BEGGING fans to come out and support the team.
Hmmm…re-sign with the Rays and their pathetic fanbase or go to a team whose fans stick with them through thick and thin because they CARE?
How’s the plans for the new stadium coming along? Did they scale it back to 10,000 so that you’ll start selling out games?
Funny how we are using Aceves and Joba out of the pen when we have Ponson, Rasner, and Pavano in our rotation.
According to the article Jamal G linked, Cano sees himself as the rookie? well there’s a problem right there. Has the coaching staff failed him? Should a guy making 8.5 mil need to be coached into playing with better concentration? Probably not but if he needs it, he needs it so Girardi and crew have failed in that respect.
Arod says he and Jeter are in his ear but it doesn’t seem to have worked. His hitting is a concern but it is his fielding that really scares me. He made some big errors this weekend. His average one could live with if his OBP wasn’t so abysmal.
Nick,
Was think more of the LoHud blogger! Wouldn’t want to upset anyone so they never come back.
Ohhh, how was that comeback win by UCLA. Scared any?
Mac Nut,
Really. What’re the odds? I thought most retirees stayed away from the new technologies.
mel, I think Tennessee was still traumatized by their trip to Cal last season. Neither team looked all that good, so I’ll wait to see how UCLA is looking later in the season before I get too scared. U$C is plenty scary enough as it is.
Are you the self-appointed blog lord who has to answer every post or something?
By the way, your grasp of sports economics is staggering. Don’t you worry yourself about attendance down here – things will work out just fine.
So how’s that fearsome NY lineup these days? Guess I’ll see for myself tonight. I hope Shelly Duncan is playing.
hahahaha
Being that Cano doesn’t command the English language, I take the comments from that article very differently.
I believe he was more commenting on how short the time feels that he has been with the Yankees and that he is no veteran like A-Rod and Jeter.
His problems at the plate seem to be the same as we are seeing up and down the lineup, but with worse results. This year the whole Yankee lineup looks very flat. Cano was pressing the whole beginning of the season trying to get off to a good start.
TurnTwo
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:53 am
“Yes, and I’ve seen hot periods, and I’ve seen slumps. But you can’t go cold for a month and hot for another and hit .306.â€
wouldnt the definition of a streaky player be someone who alternates between hot periods and cold slumps?
______________________________________________
Is Jeter streaky or steady? He’s had a bad year on defense and offense. Zero extra base power of any sort. He has 35 extra base hits. He had more doubles alone last year. Let’s dump him for his lazy play like booting that easy DP in Baltimore that nearly cost NYY the game until Rodriguez and Cano’s bats bailed him out.
Tampa Bay – yet another market with apparently no place for their fans to go to blog about their team…someone might want to consider filling that need.
Rays Fan,
Just having a little fun with you. I’m actually happy for your franchise. Congratulations for clinching your first winning season!
“Hmmm…re-sign with the Rays and their pathetic fanbase or go to a team whose fans stick with them through thick and thin because they CARE?”
A choice Kazmir doesn’t need to make since he’s signed thru 2012.
Mel, that come back from UCLA last night was fun to watch. I almost fell out of the chair seeing Tenn. miss that field goal after making the dramatic one to tie things up.
It just goes to show things aren’t over till they are over.
I’m just playing too – I only read this blog when we’re playing you guys. Don’t mean to crap all over your discussion, but we’ve caught taunts for 10 years now, and I just wanted to poke back while I can.
There will never be another year like this one for the (at least 10 to 20) Rays fans who have long suffered through sad Septembers. You guys will be back next year, no doubt. I still can’t stand Hank, though.
RFiT out hahahaha
Fredo,
So he’s got a few more years to work the fanbase for support.
“Funny how we are using Aceves and Joba out of the pen when we have Ponson, Rasner, and Pavano in our rotation.”
Vin – are you suggesting they throw Joba back into the rotation asap?
Its really hard to take anyone who claims to be a Rays fan all that seriously. They can only fill up the Trop when they get big draw teams in.
I think the Rays have put together one good season here, but will they be able to sustain it? I bet the Rockies thought they could sustain it this year too.
“Should a guy making 8.5 mil need to be coached into playing with better concentration?”
Can’t buy maturity. Cano’s still a young guy.
Rays,
See we have something in common. Some of us don’t like Hank, either.
“Should a guy making 8.5 mil”
I’m someone who doesn’t think money has anything to do with results but at least be accurate. Cano is making 3 million this year.
“Is Jeter streaky or steady? He’s had a bad year on defense and offense.”
wait, so you’re comparing a mediocre to poor season of Robby Cano to a career of Derek Jeter? cant be what you were trying to do, unless you were kidding.
yeah, and the people who are open minded about trading Robby Cano are the looney ones.
I only have one thing to ask/say
ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
“Burnett’s injury prone, too. But he’s been healthy of late AND he’s proven he can pitch in the AL East.”
He’s proven he can pitch against the Yankees. His numbers vs everyone else are pedestrian. The Yankees need to stay far away from Burnett.
Mel:
I just don’t see it working in Tampa area. It’s a football town in a football state whose economy is reliant upon people who are from somewhere else, most often cold weather climates (NYC, Chi, Bos, etc). I don’t think they ever had much of a chance to develop a fan base down there.
I think it’s a confidence issue for Hughes. He was still working on his breaking pitches, and the Yankees schedule isn’t exactly cake the rest of the way. What good would it do the kid at this point to bring him up for a month to get spanked by major league pitching, and possibly risk injury to compensate for his lack of stuff. What’s funny is that there’s no mention of Kennedy? His attitude might have written his ticket out of NY.
Rays Fan
George Steinbrenner has been very supportive of the people of the Tampa Bay area and very generous with his revenue sharing money to the Rays. A nice thank you would be going 6-0 against the Sox the rest of this year. Talk to your boys and see if they could do that please.
Looks like Rays fan in Tampa forgets where it is, when making such combatitive comments, lol.
Honestly, its amazing. Goes to another teams blog. Makes instigative comments – and then acts surprised and says its just joking and getting its own back when called on them.
Sad Septembers? How about blaming your ownership for them instead of Hank or the Yankees. Does it irk you that Hank’s money has paid for some of it? Sheesh.
“I’m someone who doesn’t think money has anything to do with results but at least be accurate. Cano is making 3 million this year.”
Cano was given a 4 year/30 mil contract. He’s averaging 8.5 mil. sorry.
Money has NOTHING to do with results?
lol Pat, I guess we both had the same thought to remind that fan of revenue sharing.
Bronx Jeers
I went to school before new math came in but even if you are talking average value, 30 million divided by 4 still isn’t 8.5 million a year.
Cano is getting 3 million this year, 6 next year, 9 in 2010 and 10 in 2011 with an option/buyout beyond that.
And no, money has nothing to do with results. If it did, would the Rays 43 million dollar payroll be ahead of the Yanks 200 million dollar payroll?
DFox September 2nd, 2008 at 10:28 am
Cano isn’t going anywhere. Stop measuring Cano’s effort by his batting average and errors in the field. It’s nonsensical. That’s how we measure a baseball player’s effort all of a sudden. Pathetic.
MORE THAN NONSENSICAL, IT’S RACISM. PEOPLE HERE WILL NEVER ADMIT IT, BUT THEY BUY INTO THE STEREOTYPE OF THE LAZY BOY FROM THE CARIBBEAN. EVEN KIM JONES USED THE WORD “LAZY” TO DESCRIBE CANO TO JETER. YOU COULD SEE FROM JETER’S RESPONSE “HE’S NOT LAZY” THAT HE WAS DISGUSTED.
You know why Cano isn’t going anywhere? Easy, because the Yankees want Cano to be their number 3 hitter down the road. So unless another team is willing to part with a player who is a solid #3 hitter in a lineup, and has batted around .340 before, I doubt the Yankees will give up on their guy because of one bellow average season.
WELL, YOU WOULD HAVE TO HOPE THE YANKEES, AT LEAST, UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF TALENT THEY HAVE UNDER CONTROL. WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT THE YANKEES THINK.
I cannot truly believe how some of you talk about Robinson Cano. I don’t know if some of you hate him because he’s younger than you and makes more money, or whatever, but the guy hasn’t shown streaks of brilliance, he’s shown SEASONS of brilliance.
I TOLD YOU. THEY HATE GUYS WHO HAVE TO AUDACITY TO HAVE ENOUGH TALENT NOT TO SPIT AND THROW UP MAKING A PLAY. IF YOU DON’T SPIT AND THROW UP, YOU’RE LAZY. ESPECIALLY IF YOUR SKIN IS DARK AND ENGLISH IS YOUR SECOND LANGUAGE.
How can it even be a discussion to trade him because of one bellow average season? Where are all the trade Jeter advocates? And where are all the questions about Jeter’s effort? Cano’s effort gets measured by batting average and # of errors committed and Jeter’s doesn’t?
ONE THING WE KNOW W/CERTAINTY: JETER WOULD NEVER CALL OUT A TEAMMATE TO THE MEDIA. JETER ALSO IS VERY FOND OF CANO. JETER COMMITS THROWING ERRORS BECAUSE HE’S GOT A HURT SHOULDER AND IS AGING. HE DOESN’T GET TO BALLS BECAUSE HIS RANGE, WHICH WAS NEVER GREAT TO BEGIN W/, IS DIMINISHED BY AGE.
CANO HAS MADE SOME UNBELIEVABLE PLAYS AT 2ND BASE AND HAS A GREAT ARM. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HERE WOULD EVEN CONSIDER SACRIFICING THAT ABILITY BECAUSE OF SOME UNFOCUSED PLAY IN A LOST SEASON, MEANS THEY ARE STUPID BASEBALL FANS. IT’S ALSO INTERESTING HOW WHITE BOY TYPES LIKE DAMON AND NADY, WHO BOTH FRANKLY SUCK IN THE OUTFIELD, ARE NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED WHEN THEY TAKE BAD ROUTES TO THE BALL OR IT IS HIT OVER THEIR HEADS. DON’T YOU KNOW, THEY’RE SCRAPPY BLUE COLLAR “WINNERS.” THEY ALSO ARE WHITE AND SPEAK ENGLISH WELL.
We usually measure people like A-Rod’s worth on playoff performance, Cano doesn’t get the same treatment?
BECAUSE THEY DON’T LIKE HIS SMILE, HIS EASE OF MOVEMENT – BOTH OF WHICH INDICATE HE DOESN’T “CARE.”
Who was the only guy who showed up in the playoffs last year?? Robinson Cano. And he’s 25.
CANO IS A REAL HITTER. HE CAN HIT A PITCHER’S PITCH. THAT’S WHY HE HIT IN LAST YEAR’S PLAYOFFS.
And here’s where people lose me, they can so easily identify that Cano doesn’t care, etc. There has never been ANY indication that Cano doesn’t care.
DFOX, IF YOUR SKIN IS DARK, YOU HAVE A LOT OF TALENT, YOU DON’T SPEAK ENGLISH WELL, AND YOU ACTUALLY SMILE AND DO ROUTINES W/OTHER NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING PLAYERS, YOU DON’T “RESPECT” THE GAME AND YOU “DON’T CARE.” NOW, IF HE SMASHED A WATER COOLER, THEY’D TALK ABOUT WHAT A “GAMER” HE IS, WOULDN’T THEY?
Yeah, he loves to have fun and party, but I never see Robinson Cano in the news for getting arrested for drunk driving or something. Who knows, with all the unfair critisizm, maybe it’ll drive him to do something like that.
I DOUBT IT; HE’S TOO WELL DISPOSITIONED.
It’s really sad. Such a great player getting so much amateur criticism for having an off season.
YOU SAID IT, DUDE, AMATEUR CRITICISM. CASHMAN DOESN’T HAVE THAT EXCUSE.
GREAT POST, BTW (YOURS, NOT MINE
)
There are several interesting FA starting pitchers this year, and all but one have health question marks…. the one being CC Sabathia. I would expect the Yanks to sign one IF they keep Mussina and/or Pettite and two if they don’t keep either. Burnett has been healthy three of the last four years and is making a helluva salary drive.
Should we start thinking about Cano for LF or RF in the long run? If he’s not moved his casually flippant approach to defense at 2B would be pretty hard to take. the idea of dealing him for a top young arm also has intrigue. The Yankees and Dodgers actually look like they match up very well for a multi-prospect deal…. and no one has a higher opinion of Cano’s abllity than Torre/Bowa.
Can we please have a moratoriium on discussing the 2004 ALCS?
If you don’t know the history of the Rays (and it’s obvious that you don’t) then I would expect such comments.
And I know this will be difficult for a tard like Angel to believe, but NY fans have trash-talked on Rays blogs for years, so you in particular can bite me. And I wasn’t acting surprised about anything – again, reading is fundamental.
p.s. don’t act like Hank was giving us money out of the goodness of his heart, either. But it was cute to see him remind us of the all that money earlier this year, as if the Rays should start throwing games because Daddy Scumbucks said so. HAHAHAHA
RACISM?!?! You’re insane and insulting.
Cano isn’t called lazy for any reason other than his lackadaisical play on a regular basis and his failure to hustle on the bases, with another example yesterday.
And all caps doesn’t make your point any better, so stop.
We all love Robinson’s talent, but it’s hard to root for a guy who so often just coasts on talent.
86,
That’s funny. I can actually picture Cano flipping the ball from the outfield.
Seriously, Cano can’t run. 1B is a possibility, but he doesn’t smother balls either, and we’ve got lots of guys who can “play” 1B.
I give Cano some time to mature with a little help from the staff and his ‘mates.
One thing I’ve seen that I like is that his eye has improved. He’s not drawing a lot of walks, but he’s not swinging at slop either.
“If Ponson pitches, you have to question what the Yankees are trying to really accomplish.Ponson has a 6.22 ERA in his 12 starts for the Yankees.But why wouldn’t you have Alfredo Aceves make that start?Or anybody else?”
I have the same question. I can’t often understand what Girardi is thinking this season.
Rays fan – the Rays have been my adopted team for a long time. I was talking up the Rays when it wasn’t popular to do so, only because I actually took time to watch the games and knew that if it weren’t for your bullpen you would have won so many more games. You have had talented starters and very talented offense and defense. So I for one am so thrilled for the Rays and their fans. I even have a signed Rocco Baldelli cap, back to when Baldelli was starting for you! (I’m from RI).
So I have said here and I will mean it to the end of the postseason, if it can’t be the Yankees, I definitely want it to be the Rays. You guys have worked for it and your are the best in the business, no matter how much we like it or don’t!
By the way, in response to your first post, the Rays have had their way with the Yankees for a while now. Even when the Yanks were sitting pretty you always found a way to give us fits (going back to now Yankee Victor Zambrano!)
But for the next three games anyway, I hope you fall on your faces!
RACISM?!?! You’re insane and insulting.
Cano isn’t called lazy for any reason other than his lackadaisical play on a regular basis and his failure to hustle on the bases, with another example yesterday.
And all caps doesn’t make your point any better, so stop.
We all love Robinson’s talent, but it’s hard to root for a guy who so often just coasts on talent.
I APOLOGIZE for the upper case responses. These were put in not to make more emphatic my responses, but to distinguish them from the original speaker. I know they are brash and clumsy, but I don’t have a way to italicize or differentiate.
As for the rest, I do not apologize, and you betray yourself with your last remark about “a guy who SO OFTEN (imagine italics) just coasts on talent.”
That is not my experience watching this player. Is is at all possible that you are mistaken…that what you perceive is influenced by a bias you have so ingrained that you aren’t even aware of it? VERY talented players often “appear” as if they aren’t “working hard.” This same bias haunted Mario Lemieux his entire career. He was just “effortless” but not playing w/out “effort.”
Please learn the difference, or, at least, for your own sake, try to watch the player with a blank slate before rushing to judgement. It could be that you are just not a skilled observer, and your biases stand in place of your ability to “see.” After all, it’s not the player’s obligation to huff and puff if he can seamlessly, elegantly make a play, just because the casual fan so visually bungles/misinterprets what he/she sees.
That Cano has had a bad season is not in question; it’s this other “moral” stuff that has no place standing in for true analysis. And THAT is what, I believe, posters like myself and DFOX object to: the high emotionalism and phony arched tone to his mistakes, and a ineradicable position that they issue from a “lack of care” and “laziness.” Sure, post whatever you please, but if you make sweeping statements like this, don’t expect me to give you credit for unbiased, nonracist views.
Especially considering the subject: he’s 25 years old, has shown signs (for those who can read them) of being, not a good, but a special hitter and defensive player. The Yankees have great young pitching in their ranks, thanks to an overhaul in philosophy, what they lack is good, young position players. Cano is a great, young position player, and people here are advocating for his being dealt for a SP….or for a CF (we have Gardner, who may have salvageable hitting skills and clearly top rate speed and defensive ability; we have Melky, who may benefit from the development time he was deprived of in the minors to become a better on base guy and hitter; and Austin Jackson continues to progress…and for those who think we should trade him for a corner infielder, a 1B, no less….this is hopeless, unless you’re getting Uncle Albert for him.
We don’t need to trade an exceptionally talented, young up-the-middle infielder because people are emotionally and ethnically partial to players who express their frustration by kicking in water coolers, or because people are disappointed with the season’s results, or because people genuinely don’t have the acumen to understand how good Cano he is….and how remarkably stupid the Yankees would be to give him away.
“I have the same question. I can’t often understand what Girardi is thinking this season.”
As someone pointed out this morning, the way the Yankees see things isn’t necessarily the way fans see things. If it were we would have traded Moose, Cano, Giambi, Arod, Damon, Bruney, Matsui, Abreu, and Posada, just to name a few.
I will be very surprised if rookies or guys who have been up but aren’t pitching like Cy get a start unless Girardi is convinced the Yankees aren’t going to the playoffs or he is convinced that the pitcher isn’t ready to be there – the way he finally felt about Kennedy. He can’t take the chance of someone playing under unimaginable pressure to win who hasn’t been there before. That’s my opinion anyway.
I think when you see newbies coming up is when Girardi has finally decided the season is over.
The bullpen is also the problem. Who should stay or go,when the team rebuild and train younger players for 2009?
I agree it would be foolish to give Cano away, and I also agree that Robinson is a special talent who could be a great player.
However I strongly disagree with your insistence that there’s a racial component to this. I recall guys named Rickey Henderson, Bernie Williams, Rod Carew and Willie Randolph among many others who played with a smooth style, but also always played hard.
Cano does not always play hard as evidenced by his lazy, yes LAZY flips of the ball and incredibly passive barerunning. I don’t need to see Cano become Paul O’Neil and start attacking water coolers, but I would like to see him act like he’s upset by one of his mistakes or hear a comment/see a quote where he accepts some responsibility and/or shows some regret.
That is not to much to ask of or expect from a professional in any walk of life.
Mike Mussina is the most overrated pitcher in baseball. Has he ever won a big game? Pitched for a world champion? Won 20 games in a season? Tossed a no-hitter? He’s ALMOST reached each of these milestones, which is why he’ll ALMOST make the Hall of fame. Numbers are nice, and Curt Schilling is a right-wing blowhard, but in their respective primes, who would you give the ball to if you HAD to win a game?
However I strongly disagree with your insistence that there’s a racial component to this. I recall guys named Rickey Henderson, Bernie Williams, Rod Carew and Willie Randolph among many others who played with a smooth style, but also always played hard.
THE discrepancy, I think, is your assumption that he doesn’t “play hard.” That is not what I am seeing. I see some diffidence from time to time, and I see a player who is relying on an efficiency that has always worked for him. MENTAL lapses are bound to occur in a 162 game season; I make mistakes all the time on the job; some days I’m more alert, less tired, than others. I honestly do not see a chronic standard of “soft” play from Robinson Cano.
Cano does not always play hard as evidenced by his lazy, yes LAZY flips of the ball and incredibly passive barerunning.
LAZY is the wrong word. And he is not a great baserunner, granted. He needs to learn to run the bases better. You mention Bernie – Bernie was a very poor baserunner, and unline Cano, he had real speed. I don’t think Bernie was lazy, I think he had poor baserunning instincts. What Cano lacks in instinct – unlike his wonderfully instinctive stick at the plate – he has to learn; he’s 25, life, and learning, are fluid. He can’t learn? He has a fatal “laziness”?? This is what I can’t buy.
He’s not all that quick, either. That’s a PHYSICAL (imagine italics) thing, not a mental disposition.
I don’t need to see Cano become Paul O’Neil and start attacking water coolers, but I would like to see him act like he’s upset by one of his mistakes or hear a comment/see a quote where he accepts some responsibility and/or shows some regret.
AND I see him drop his head in near self-flagellation. If anything, it’s a lack of CONFIDENCE, and a too-acute regret! He needs to shake it off and focus on the next play, not be MIRED in regret, which is his way…he really LACKS arrogance. And I think it would HELP him to grasp how good he really is, because, to a fault, he doesn’t seem to want to own that, so I would say that he has too much HUMILITY and needs to be coached with compassion, not with a whip, as someone here suggested.
But ALL of this is overstated: it’s a bad season for him and it isn’t healthy for him, or anyone trying to help him develope, to bludgeon him with this off year. Work hard, come back next year, finish the season well, continue to hit – which he’s been doing for some time now. Girardi should get him out of the 8-hole and give him some pitches to hit…he’s climbed back to respectability w/no protection whatsover.
Cano should not be traded. Too young and too talented. But it is foolish to say there is a double standard between his 2007 and Pedroia’s 2008. Pedroia bailing out a team that has had Ortiz, Drew etc. on the DL, Manny quit on them. Cano could have hit 260 last year and Yanks still easily make the playoffs. A-Rod and Posada got them there. This year, Pedroia and Youkilis are getting Bosox there (though they are not there yet).
Can’t believe how hard people are on Cano but as soon as PED goon Giambi hits a few homers you start waving your Stache pom-poms and vote 90 times for him in the All-Star game. Pathetic.
Mussina’s not overrated as long as he doesn’t get to the Hall. Then he will be officially overrated. a very very very good pitcher. some great seasons. But the Hall is for the ALL-TIME greats. Not the pretty goods who hung around a long time and didn’t get hurt. Puts up nice stats but he’d be the worst pitcher since Phil Niekro, who never dominated, to get in the Hall.
“Being that Cano doesn’t command the English language, I take the comments from that article very differently.
I believe he was more commenting on how short the time feels that he has been with the Yankees and that he is no veteran like A-Rod and Jeter.
His problems at the plate seem to be the same as we are seeing up and down the lineup, but with worse results. This year the whole Yankee lineup looks very flat. Cano was pressing the whole beginning of the season trying to get off to a good start.”
But this is exactly it. He presses when trying TOO HARD, NOT because he “doesn’t care.”
And of course, there is a language barrier. This is NOT a brash kid, who is cavalier about playing baseball. It’s a kind of gentle kid with immense talent who has put together a couple of impressive seasons before struggling mightily this year, who has not harnessed all of his ability yet.
WHAT’S so hard to grasp, here? We need to develope this rare talent; not give him away so he can win batting titles and gold gloves for someone else: BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.
Sidney’s paunch September 2nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Mike Mussina is the most overrated pitcher in baseball. Has he ever won a big game?
UMMM…guess you missed his four crucial innings in relief of legend Roger Clemens to rescue Game 7 of the ALCS in 2003. If that’s not big, there is no standard for big.
And umm…2001 vs. Oakland.
You don’t remember because we didn’t win the WS either year, but he helped get us there. Do your research next time.
Pitched for a world champion? Won 20 games in a season? Tossed a no-hitter? He’s ALMOST reached each of these milestones, which is why he’ll ALMOST make the Hall of fame. Numbers are nice, and Curt Schilling is a right-wing blowhard, but in their respective primes, who would you give the ball to if you HAD to win a game?
Curt, I should have known it was you.
Don Sutton was pretty non-dominant, too, though he did win 20 once and 300 overall. I’d vote Schilling into the Hall before Mussina. If Curt retires, he’s still got those three world championships to brag about, while Mussina has none. And brag about them he will.
TurnTwo
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“Is Jeter streaky or steady? He’s had a bad year on defense and offense.â€
wait, so you’re comparing a mediocre to poor season of Robby Cano to a career of Derek Jeter? cant be what you were trying to do, unless you were kidding.
yeah, and the people who are open minded about trading Robby Cano are the looney ones.
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Where does it say that I was comparing Cano’s off season to Jeter’s career?
I said Jeter is also having an off season on defense and offense do, NYY needs to trade him, too. That makes as much sense as trading Cano.
I also mentioned the two most recent errors that Jeter made, one that cost the game and the one on a DP in the 7th inning in Baltimore that would have if Rodriguez and Cano’s bat hadn’t bailed him out. Sounds like just laziness on Jeter’s part with those errors.
Again, how does that look like comparing one season to a career?