Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 10, 2008 
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Derek Jeter and Alfredo Aceves each made a little history as the Yankees beat the Angels.
It has been an up-and-down season for Andy Pettitte. But he indicated he wants to return to the Yankees. He faces the Angels this afternoon.
Yanks-Angels at 3:30 p.m. today. Check back later for the lineups.
The Yankees have had over 1950 plate appearances this year from guys with OPS+’s currently at 85 or below. How awful is that? The last Yankee team to have that many automatuic outs in the lineup was the last place 1990 team.
Congrats to Jeter & Fredo (not you, Corleone!)
That Jeter, so bland. Jeter is 34 years old, and he should end up with well over 3,000 career hits. But ranking so high on the Yankees’ list feels strange, he said.
“I know I joke around that I’m old,†Jeter said. “But I’m not that old.†(Kepner)
And I say bring Andy back for another year.
pete-
What do you think 2009 has in store for phil Hughes? Is he still part of the plan or just trade bait?
I have no problem bringing Andy back but the amount of money he’s going to want is not conducive with the type of team I want to see in 2009. The yankees should retool with non type B or A free agents willing to take small one or two year contracts and despite what some may think there are some really nice players out there that fall into this category. They should also attempt to make a few trades as well. Preferably at least one for a potential impact player.
I had to call it a night after the top of the 4th inning last night; just couldn’t keep the eyelids open. It was with great pleasure that I logged on today to a see news of the Yankees victory.
Congratulations to Alfredo Aceves for a job well done. What little I saw of him last night looked good. He seemed to work fairly quickly. He seemed quite confident. I hope he can continue this way through the end of the season.
And, again, congrats to Derek Jeter. I did see him hit. A great moment for him. A testament to his consistency. mel, like the quote you found from Kepner. No, 34 is not old. Even in baseball, where it’s definitely approaching old, it’s not old yet.
I hope the Yankees and Pettitte reach an agreement for him to return next season. I know he hasn’t been the Andy we expected in the second half of this season, but would there be a better #5 on the market? Given his love for the Yankees and his determination to help turn the team around, I think he’s a good bet. My concern previously was that he’d be so bummed out about how this season turned out that he would not want to return. I’m glad I was wrong about that.
Plus, I’m not certain Mike Mussina won’t retire.
Hope he doesn’t.
It’s odd that even knowing that although the probability of the Yankees going anywhere this season is slim to none, a single victory still makes me smile.
YEAH TRADE FOR AN IMPACT PLAYER!!!! WHAT A STUPID IDEA! WHY NOT SIGN FOUR IMPACT PLAYERS? SIGN CC, TEX, BURNETT, AND K-ROD
ROTATION: WANG, CHAMBERLAIN, CC, BURNETT, HUGHES/MUSSINA
BULLPEN: BRUNEY, MARTE, MELANCON, K-ROD, RIVERA
so exactly why did we suffer through two months that killed the season with Ponson and Rasner
What did Aceves learn over that time that he did not know
and exactly who is thinking the the Front Office
You can not allow the team to get older and less productive — if the Kid pitching corps bears front of the rotaion fruit they wil have no offense and no defense
If you keep Andy Moose you hve room for three kids and Wang
Baring injury Andy will go 14-12, Moose will go 16-10, Wang will not be what he was – too big a body on that foot — power sinker and location will be iffy – 14-10. That is 44 wins — we need to find 50-54 more
Where are tey going to come from – some will be games won in relief — if the Yankees don’t hit and field better the % will be about what it has been this year.
Who will the team rely on in 2009 — if that is a development year (i.e no burnett and sabbathia or their equals then the rotaion in 2010 has to be the kids because there may not be a free agent worth taking.
As the yankess 1-9 age the team is less attractive to pitchers — why be abused in Yankee stadiumm when you can be loved in Milwaukee and pile up successive 20 + win seasons on your way to HOF
what a game last night. aceves was awesome for 7 innings, though he did have some hard hit outs right at people. Also congrats to Trenton and SWB. both up 1 game to none in race to five. GO BABY YANKEES!!!!!!
“so exactly why did we suffer through two months that killed the season with Ponson and Rasner”
Perhaps because the same people who annointed Hughes and Kennedy were going to be very careful before throwing someone else into the fire. Perhaps because those pitchers you mentioned were nowhere near as bad as you’d like to remember them as being. For instance, here are Rasner’s ER for his last 10 games: 3,2,4,5,3,2,1,3,4,5. I would suggest to you that if the situation hadn’t gotten so dire, Rasner might still be in the rotation.
I’m in the minority but I don’t resign Andy Pettitte. Or if I do, he is definitely my #5 in the rotation behind Wang, Mussina (I do want Moose back) and anyone else who ends up there. Obviously Joba is in that mix but I’m just not sure about the logistics involved in his getting there.
GOOD GAME TO WATCH LAST NIGHT. aCEVES PITCHED WELL. SEEMS LIKE SOME OUTS WERE VERY HARD HIT THOUGH. CONGRATULATIONS TO TRENTON AND SWB. BOTH ARE UP 1 – 0 IN THEIR SERIES. GO BABY YANKEES!!!!
Anti Mussina,
I thought you DFA’d yourself once Mussina turned out to be the Yankees Ace this year. Shouldn’t you at least change your name to the Anti Hughes/Kennedy?
And here is a feel good baseball story, especially feel good for Yankee fans…
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....d_johnson/
raymagnetic –
Oh yeah one more thing on Aceves. I am willing to believe he has very good stuff but let’s always remember the story about the Yankees facing a pitcher for the very first time. Might the same thing work with other teams also?
Mornin’ Trisha -
Yes, it is amazing what one win will do for an optimist!
Couldn’t help but notice that if the Yankees had scored 6 runs a game, like they were supposed to do , Rasner might have won a couple of those games, if not all. And Hughes and Kennedy as well may not have been winless.
The season’s woes have been a true team effort.
Hughes and kennedy couldn’t even get out of the 5th innings. Impossible to get wins like that, no matter how many runs the offense scored.
good game last night, though aceves had some real hard hit outs,IMO. Congrats to Trenton and SWB. both are up 1 – 0. GO BABY YANKEES!!!!!
Pete….can you ask Girardi or Cashman why the hell they have decided to not keep Moose on pace to pitch the last game of the season in Boston, which COULD be his chance at 20 games ? How did Ponson getting another meaningless start TRUMP what Moose has a chance to accomplish ? I swear, this team is run by a bunch of MORONS !
Nice win last night. Would have been even nicer if I could have been able to stay up and watch them win. :p
Congrats to Derek and Alfredo!
“The season’s woes have been a true team effort.”
Doreen that made me laugh out loud! More and more. That is actually a pretty funny line.
Thank the lord the west coast jaunt will be over today. I will now hit the shower and hope it helps to wake me up.
Congrats to Jeter and Aceves!
Chances are we won’t make enough of a push to make the playoff this late in the game, but I hope to see more performances like last night so we don’t exactly phone it in for the remainder of the season. We can’t close out the Stadium as champion, but at least close out with Yankee pride please.
Oh and I can’t wait to see Bernie’s return, that’s what I’m looking most forward to at this point!
“let’s always remember the story about the Yankees facing a pitcher for the very first time. Might the same thing work with other teams also?”
My thought exactly also.
Anyone here read Lou Piniella’s comments this morning? Thats the kind of manager i thought Girardi was going to be. Now i wish Girardi would at least show a quarter of the fire Lou Piniella has.
If Andy wants to come back, he has to come back for less than 16 million.
If not? Bye bye.
The only way the Yankees are going fix what’s broken is to stop overpaying veteran players. At some point, you have to pay for production.
For what Andy has left in the tank, its not worth 16 million. When you overpay like that, it inhibits filling out your roster with better players at other positions.
At this point in his career, he’s basically a #4 or #5 starter. They don’t make 16 million a year.
You will hear a lot of from guys on this team talking about “wanting to come back” next year.
The REAL question to those guys should be, “would you come back for 30-50% less than you are making now?
That’s when you will get the truth out of them.
Gonna be a LOT of changes on this team in the off-season. They aren’t bringing back the same underachieving group and deciding this year was just “bad luck”.
“Gonna be a LOT of changes on this team in the off-season. They aren’t bringing back the same underachieving group and deciding this year was just “bad luckâ€.”
i tend to agree, and i think there will be more wholesale changes than people think, too.
i dont, for one second, think its a given Cashman brings back Moose on a one or two year deal “because you have to after the year he just had.”
or that Andy is given a contract offer because he said he wants to get a chance to pitch in the new stadium. yeah? well how about pitching better this year, because thats what we wanted.
i think Giambi and Abreu are gone, guaranteed.
i think Cano will be shopped. not traded necessarily, but shopped.
dont tell me how its going to happen, but i think you’re going to see a big named traded to the Yankees… a Matt Holliday, a Prince Fielder, a Jake Peavy… that kind of caliber player.
i think you will see Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui traded from the team.
i think Teixeira probably has a better shot at being a Yankee than Sabathia.
this is just what i see right now. of course, my attitude can change as the season finishes, and the offseason unfolds… if Cashman doesnt come back, if Hank overrules Hal…
but in the immortal words of Sam Cooke, i know a change gonna come.
Since both Joba and Phil will be on IP limits, the Yanks will need 6 starters. With an ERA of 4.49, andy is a little worse then the league average of 4.29. Since his elbow has held up, if he works hard over the winter, I don’t think he would be any worse next year. He’s an innings eater and still capable of the occasion dominating game.
My guess is he’s worth around $10m as a FA? Other opinions? But I don’t believe he with pitch for any other team. He is not looking to pad his personal stats…. just be part of the Yankees for one more year and pitch in the new stadium.
Even with a FA, we are looking at:
CC, Wang, Joba/Phil, Moose and Andy.
I would would offer Andy $6-8, with incentives that pay him up to $16m or an Ace-like year and $8m for a year like this one.
I believe the Yankees should spend their money wisely, but losing money is still much better then losing prospects/trading players, so I suspect Andy will be back for 1 more year, along with Moose.
You can simply never have too much pitching. For those ragging on Raz and Pontoons, you should remember that losing Wang, Joba and Phil is like losing your #1, #2 and #5. In the context that Raz and Pontoons are #6′s, we really did OK considering our pitching injuries. It could have been a lot worse.
With all our SPs went through, we currenty have a team ERA of 4.38, compared to a team ERA in 2007 of 4.49. So it should be pretty obvious, since we won 94 games last year, it we had the same offense this year, we would have won at least 94.
ARod has an OPS of .994 and a RunnersOn of .864. Certainly a poor year, but not horrible. Giambi has an OPS of .887 and a RunnersOn of .853, RISP of .697, poor by not horrible. Both Giambi and ARod have poor BAs with RISP but very high OBPs, so obviously, they were pitched to carefully.
Remember, RunnersOn is a MORE important stat then RISP for power hitters. A HR and (usually) a double, produce a run with a man on first, same as a man on 2nd.
But nonetheless, poor ‘clutch’ batting from ARod and Giambi, losing the bats of Po and Mats for most of the season, and very poor production from Melky and Cano is what killed us this year. Our pitching could have been better, but it was good enough.
My predictions:
… We get CC IF he’s willing to come here
… We do NOT get Tex. At 10/$200, that is a much worse contract then Giambi’s.
… 50/50 chance we get Giambi for one year. WHY? The Yankees will not know if/how much Posada can be our catcher for until into the 2009 season. Unfotunately, the 1B and DH positions are probably on ‘hold’ for another year. AFTER 2009, Mats, JD and Giambi are gone, and will will know Posada’s ‘fate’. Like it or not, 2010 is a better and the natural year for a ‘housecleaning’.
With Moose and Andy, it’s about money and aging, but it’s also about who to replace them with. If FAs are signed, #2 and/or #3 caliber pitchers, or traded for, then they become expendable. But if they can’t replace them with BETTER pitchers, then, sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know. You KNOW for sure that Moose and Pettitte can handle pitching in NY and you can figure, probably 12-15 wins from each (optimistically, sure).
As for the position players, I’m pretty much ready for just about anything there.
**Because if they’re going to start Joba in the bullpen, and they DON’T resign Moose and/or Andy, you’re looking at a pitching staff, right now, of Wang and ????????.
At first glance, my off-season thoughts:
1. Giambi is gone. They aren’t bringing him back to play first base. They will find a first baseman in the trade market. I don’t believe for a minute Tex will be here. I don’t think he wants to play in NY and I don’t think the Yankees want to be pawns in yet another Scott Boras money grab.
First base/DH could be positions that may be held for two of Posada/Damon/Matsui. More likely, a first baseman will be obtained through trade, while either Matsui or Damon dealt. They have to breakup the over 35 group on this team and this is the off-season to do it.
2. I think they make a big move on both AJ and CC. Record, in your face, get ESPN to REALLY hate the Yankees-type of contract offers. If they are successful, they could move one or more of their younger arms for a younger position player (1B or CF).
3. I don’t think Andy is back unless he wants to play for 10 million+ incentives. If he is hung up on 16 million, he is going to be disappointed at the Yankees response.
4. Moose? I could see him retire rather than going through a rebuilding program. Moose is in a quandry. He doesn’t want to play anywhere else but, he wants to win. This team is in full rebuilding mode, and its unclear as to whether or not they can plug all the holes in one off-season. He may take some time to figure out what he wants to do.
5. Abreu? Another player having to be willing to stay for less money on the open market. Highly unlikely he will.
SJ44 -
If they do that, and get turned down by either player, at least no one could say they didn’t give it their best shot!
“**Because if they’re going to start Joba in the bullpen, and they DON’T resign Moose and/or Andy, you’re looking at a pitching staff, right now, of Wang and ????????.”
i agree with you on principle, but you cant just sign back players because you know them, they know NY, and because if you dont sign them, who else is there?
you have to make decisions based on the best available options to help this team win in 2009, 2010, and beyond.
does that mean you have to make a gamble? to some extent, sure.
would you rather take a chance on a 2 year contract with a 40 year old Moose, or a 3 or 4 year deal on a 30 year old Jon Garland? what are the chances Moose actually pitches this well again for another whole 2 seasons?
same with Andy. he’s sturggled this year like he never has really before, especially with the yankees, and especially n the second half.
does that mean you offer him a 1 year deal to pitch next year, because he’s a battler on the mound, albeit with potentially diminshed stuff, because thats the easy thing to do to fill the hole in the rotation?
IMO, you have to research the market, see who is available and for what price, before handing over a contract to Andy for 2009, even if its at a reduced rate.
whats the point of having Andy back on a team-friendly 1 year, $10 deal if he doesnt give the yankees the best chance to win every night he pitches?
“If they are successful, they could move one or more of their younger arms for a younger position player (1B or CF).”
Only younger arm that brings a young position player who can contribute is Hughes, in my opinion.
“Only younger arm that brings a young position player who can contribute is Hughes, in my opinion.”
and if that young player is a big time player, ill pack Hughes’s bags, depending, of course, on the yankees other rotation options already in the fold.
Turn Two -
I’d absolutely rather have a younger Garland for 4 years. No question about that.
But I don’t think they can count on any free agents to sign on the dotted line. That’s all I’m saying. And I don’t personally think both Pettitte and Moose will be back. One of them would be a good anchor on the staff. And 2 or 3 holes to fill is better than 4.
They can’t re-sign Moose or Pettitte and pencil them in for the #2 and #3 spots in the rotation. That can’t happen.
I disagree that Tex is more likely coming than CC. I can feel the Yankees offering CC something like 26 Million/Year over 6 years to make sure they get him. Even though pitching wasnt the real problem this year, there is something to be said for coming out everyday believing you will get good pitching, and just being surprised when you get good pitching. Better starters will bring better hitting.
Wang/CC/Joba/Mussina/Pettitte (Aceves, Hughes, and others waiting in the wings waiting for injury).
Giambi GONE!!!
Abreu is tougher because of his consistant hitting, but i say GONE!!!
Don’t trade Cano, just hire someone who will light a match under his ass. Convince Bowa to come back as the bench coach (or manager would be better).
Convince Paul O’Neill to be the hitting coach so he can be in that dugout to throw a water cooler at someone who isn’t showing heart.
And maybe this year the Yankees make Pettitte wait it out, instead of the other way around.
Doreen,
Effort is never the issue when it comes to making moves with the Yankees. They always give the effort. Its the execution that sometimes is an issue.
They are going to have to be REALLY honest with themselves when assessing this team. Its not the injuries that derailed the season. That’s BS.
Its attitude and effort. Some of that, Girardi is going to have to take responsibility for. That said, its not all on him.
These guys have been putting together poor starts for years. They did it with Torre since 2005. The only difference this year is, they didn’t slug their way out of it as in previous years.
That’s why I believe the culture of this team has to change. You have find hungry guys who want to win and realize the season starts in APRIL and not JULY.
If they are able to sign both CC and AJ, you now have 3 top end guys (CC, AJ and Wang) in your rotation.
Joba? If its determined that his health is good enough for him to be a starter, make him the #5 starter in 2009 and stop jerking him back and forth from the ‘pen to the rotation.
He can be protected (from an innings standpoint) as the #5 starter and you can actually DEVELOP him as a starter this way.
If its determined his shoulder can’t take the load of being a starter, then he stays in the ‘pen.
That would necessitate the team upgrading its defense dramatically. Currently, its a horrible defensive team. That has to change if they upgrade their pitching staff.
Everybody will talk about the offense in the off-season. However, pitching and defense will determine their future.
The Rays aren’t a good offensive team. They are in first place because of their pitching and defense. They catch everything and their starters give them innings on most nights.
You do that and you have a chance to win every night.
“But I don’t think they can count on any free agents to sign on the dotted line. That’s all I’m saying.”
definitely agree. cant just assume you’re going to throw money at a player, and its an automatic.
just saying, cant just resign Moose just because he had a great year this year, and you dont know who else is taking that spot in the rotation next year.
there are options, i think, that should be looked at before Moose is given an offer (like a Jon Garland, etc). i like Moose, i just dont trust him beyond this year.
For everyone that believes losing Wang and Joba killed this team, I say you are wrong.
This team died when Jorge Posada went on the DL. We were 3 games out of first the day he decided to have the surgery, and now we are in 4th place, probably to stay.
He was the center of this team and pushed everyone to care.
It’s sad someone needs to push the other players, but thats what happens.
He is the heart of our team, not the pitching and not Jeter (although Jeter is still the leader of the team).
We need more Posadas. Younger, but with that attitude.
“The Rays aren’t a good offensive team. They are in first place because of their pitching and defense. They catch everything and their starters give them innings on most nights.”
its true. i look at their everyday lineup down at the bottom of the order, and it makes me want to vomit, especially considering with all of the yankees injuries the lineup they still played everyday 1-6.
but, the rays and that stinky lineup get it done. cant argue with that.
Fredo,
Besides Hughes, Zach McAllister, Dellin Betances and Mark Melancon would bring a lot back in trade.
I’m not saying deal those guys. I’m saying, those guys are really well liked around baseball. I know some scouts who think McAllister may be the best starting pitching prospect in the Yankees system, in terms of future major league success.
Again, I’m not saying deal everybody. I don’t think they will.
However, they do have some interesting chips to play. Just a question of how they play them.
When the Yankees were playing Tampa, I think they put up the stat that the Rays actually had a very low team average with RISP. So they won games with the rare, timely RISP, productive outs and a defense that prevented more runs than they gave up.
It’s interesting SJ44 that you brought up that the Yankees need to get better defensively, because, I’m ironing here and watching the replay of last night’s game and having meandering thoughts, and what occurred to me is that if Cash, et al. are talking seriously about getting younger, more athletic, etc., they need to change the way the Yankees play baseball as an organization. Sure, they still can have their sluggers – with YS, you have to have your sluggers. But if you’re going to emphasize pitching, then you have to co-emphasize defense. And sometimes you’re going to have to find the balance between superior defensive and average offensive skills in a player.
So, while not quite playing “small ball,” the Yankees are seriously going to have to emphasize the basics – stolen bases, hit-and-runs, sacrifice bunting and bunting for base hits. They are going to have to change the philosophy of the one big hit in an inning, instead really pounding home the idea that a couple of smaller hits, even some well-executed outs, can get you those runs. And if the pitching is good, and the defense is good, those runs hold up. You don’t always have to slug it out.
It’s a sea-change in philosophy. But I think that given the way this year’s offense fell short, I don’t think it will be a tough sell with whoever makes it to 2009.
How on earth can you justify signing andy pettitte again? He’s a pitcher worth approximately 4-6 million per year, yet will command 10 million at least. A no brainer.
SJ:
Agree on Melancon and Hughes, but Betances and McAllister aren’t close enough to bring a young impact guy right now. Not even sure a reliever like Melancon brings one, unless he’s the centerpiece of a package.
By young, I’m thinking a James Loney, Connor Jackson types. Saw Turn Two mention guys like Fielder and Peavey. Those might require Cano as well, especially Peavey.
SJ,
You made excellent points concerning the off-season, what first baseman could you logically see the Yankees get if they traded Matsui or Damon? Also..do you see Damon in CF, or do you see them letting A Jax get a shot there?
“Rays actually had a very low team average with RISP.”
Easy to believe based on last night’s game. Rays had countless opportunities to settle the issue well before the ninth inning.
By the way, I’m not saying the Yankees don’t already try to do this or talk about it in some way. I’m saying it has to invade the actual thinking process of the players. I’m sure that on some level, theoretically, they all know a productive out is better than a strikeout, a single is sometimes better than a homerun (?). But it has to become more second nature to them. Right now, it seems more second nature to most of the lineup to try and get the game over with with one swing.
I also understand that I can be talking out of my hat on this one.
One thing to watch for as Pettitte closes the season. The last I knew, Andy and Babe Ruth were the only pitchers in baseball history to pitch in at least ten seasons and have a winning record in each season they pitched in. Pettitte is 13-12 entering today. His share of the mark is in jeopardy.
“3. I don’t think Andy is back unless he wants to play for 10 million+ incentives. If he is hung up on 16 million, he is going to be disappointed at the Yankees response.”
If they are to make a run at Burnett as you suggest, SJ, it will take just about every dime of Pettitte’s $16M to get it done. Carlos Silva contracts will end up haunting everyone. I’d guess Burnett is 4 and $64M with a 5th year option.
I know I`m going to say something that might be unpopular but here goes. I don`t want both Mussina and Petitte back. I`ll take one, and its Mussina hands down. While I appreciate what Petitte means to the Yankees, and what he has doe for the Yankees, but in this division and a year older he is way too inconsistent for me to hold onto. Hes a tough battler, link to the great teams etc but he is also working with more chance for injury than Mussina.
This year he is 13-12 and has given up 211 hits in 188 innings. He also lately has been pounded by the tougher teams, Angels, Jays, Red Sox etc.
Lets hope they can let him go. I cannot believe they could not upgrade that spot over his level.
I also agree with Pete A regarding Aceves. He has pitched well, but lets not get too happy as he is another guy without an over powering fastball, like Kennedy, Wright, Britton, Giese, Rasner on and on, and therefore these guys ALL looked great first few times out.
It was promising though.
You aren’t talking out of your hat. They do need to change the way they play the game. Its a bunch of guys who play for big innings yet, aren’t big inning hitters anymore.
That’s what I mean when I discuss changing the culture of the team. Which, I think will happen in the off-season.
Its also where the game is going today in this Post-PED/Greenies era. You have to have flexibility offensively and this Yankee team has none. A major reason why its a poor offensive team in run producing situations.
If Andy wants to come back offer one year at 11-12 Mil. That’s about what Moose will get.
I agree Fredo. I said the other day, you might be looking at a 40 million per year total for CC and AJ.
Everybody wants pitching. Big market teams like both NY teams, Boston, and both LA teams have room to bid for it, which means both CC and AJ will hit the jackpot.
I don’t think its out of line to not want Pettitte back. If you look at his performances the last two months, the cutter isn’t there anymore. He’s trying to get by on an 88 MPH fastball, some curves and changeups. His out pitch, the cutter, just hasn’t been there.
If he doesn’t have a cutter, he is no longer an effective pitcher. Definitely not a 16 million per pitcher.
Its why I think, absent a major pay cut, I’d think twice about bringing him back. Sentinmentality is for Old Timers Day and not for a rebuilding project.
“I know I`m going to say something that might be unpopular but here goes. I don`t want both Mussina and Petitte back. I`ll take one, and its Mussina hands down. While I appreciate what Petitte means to the Yankees, and what he has doe for the Yankees,”
I feel the same way – I don’t think the Yanks should twist in the wind while Andy sits in Houston doing his Brett Favre impersonation. If I had to make the decision I would not offer him a lower contract with incentives – it seems too much like what they did with Joe T. last year.
I think Moose will take a one-year deal, and we have to understand that he could just as easily be Moose of 07 rather than what we have enjoyed this year. In interviews Moose says he was physically dinged up during the bad year and he has been healthy this year. We just need depth, depth and more depth in the rotation.
I am not a huge fan of Burnett – but given Hank’s comments it sounds like he is on the wishlist along with CC.
It should be a heck of an off-season, but down here in DC we joke about the Redskins always win the off-season and lose when it counts. Cashman is on the spot – I hope he makes the right calls – these losing seasons stink.
SJ44 -
You’re a cold, cold man!
Me? I have to fight the sentimentality.
“Joba? If its determined that his health is good enough for him to be a starter, make him the #5 starter in 2009 and stop jerking him back and forth from the ‘pen to the rotation.
He can be protected (from an innings standpoint) as the #5 starter and you can actually DEVELOP him as a starter this way.”
I couldn’t agree more. When I hear talk of starting him in the bullpen again, I get really frustrated. I mean do these guys not learn from their mistakes?
I loved Aceves’ performance last night. The results were great but I think his “presence” was the real gem. I hope this guy succeeds because we need guys like that. Tough, aggressive and confident. He made IPK seem like Raggedy Ann out there. Yanks should force IPK to watch that game over and over.
I loved Aceves performance last night. The results wre great but his “
“He (Joba) can be protected (from an innings standpoint) as the #5 starter and you can actually DEVELOP him as a starter this way.”
I remember when teams use to break out of spring training and start the season with a 4 man rotation and then only 9 pitchers in total too.
Joba needs to have a started mentality when spring training ends in 2009 – not a set up guy role.
“I loved Aceves’ performance last night. The results were great but I think his “presence†was the real gem.”
We all marveled about IPK’s maturity back when he first broke in to the bigs. And THEN? He melted down when he failed this year.
I have a ton of respect for anyone who gets to the mound to pitch for the Yankees – but real character is revealed when they lose 2 or 3 in a row.
“You’re a cold, cold man!
Me? I have to fight the sentimentality.”
You can have sentimentality, but the Yankees cannot. Hate to laud the Red Sox, but their are two things they’ve done since Epstein and that crowd took over. 1) They’ve refused to fall in love with their players. 2) They’ve won.
On top of that, they’ve built a farm system, but leaving that aside, in building their team they’ve had no problem letting go/trading significant contributors and fan favorites such as Garciaparra, Pedro, Damon and Ramirez. Wasn’t easy. Certainly wasn’t popular, but they’ve done it and made it work. They did not let the team grow old together. They still dabble in free agency, of course and make their share mistakes (Tell Julio Lugo Fredo says hey) but there is a degree of heartlessness in the way they operate that works. I think Cashman recognizes that and it may well reflect in some of the moves this offseason.
*there are two things DUH!
Sometimes, Fredo = grammatical dumbass
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/
Yankees are the runaway winner of the most hated team in sports on this morning’s poll question.
Vote if you want to skew the results.
We’re going to go hard for Burnett. I have a feeling that the Red Sox would love to have him. Not only does he have good stuff, but he’s been a Yankee killer.
Black Yankee,
A difference between Aceves and Kennedy is that he throws his secondary pitches with command. On top of the facts that he is already 25 (physically mature) and has been brought along through a stepped progression of innings pitched to the point that he’ll be ready for a full load next year.
I agree, let’s not go into full-blown hysteria over the guy, but he’s worth some measured optimism.
And you know that’s at a premium right now ;;-)
under the cba a player can take no more than a 20 percent pay cut wich put’s pettitte’s salary if he accepts arbitration at 12.8 million dollars wich is not as bad as long as he is the 4th or 5th starter.
i think the yankees should package cano,kennedy and others for a great young pitcher if possible someone like volquez,billingsley even if we have to make a can’t refuse offer like cano,kennedy,ajax and someone else.it will allow them to package hughes for a good young center fielder.now they replace hughes and lock down center field.
put another package together for a good young first baseman.
free agency might land some good pitchers but not position players or just sign sabathia,sheets,texiera and keep the kids wich is less complicated.
i just know that the starting pitching needs an overhaul and we need production from first base and center field in 2009.
dream rotation is sabathia,wang,sheets,joba,mussina/pettitte/hughes/aceves.
i can’t wait to get a better look at brackman,ajax,montero.
montero looks like a monster.
I hate to be spoiled but I hope the Yankees can buy some big toys. CC and Burnett. That would put the Yankees on a par with the best teams in the starting pitching department. I would like to see them go away from the current band aid ideas when it comes to starting pitching. Thinking that Kennedy and Hughes would be “solid” 4 and 5 starters in the toughest division in baseball. To guarantee success in this division you need a # 1 or #2 grade in four of the five spots. I would also like to see Cashman evaluate Mussina and Pettitte types as they are, meaning they are #4 and 5 type pitchers in our divsion not 2 or 3`s.
We are going to have a major problem with Posada. They probably won`t know until spring training if he can actually throw well enough to be a good everyday catcher. That will impede the process of finding a firstbaseman.
They also need to find out why the offense has been so bad.
Damon, Matsui Nady and Abreu are all good hitters and I don`t know if they could find guys who could put up better numbers. There aren`t alot of outfielders out there that can do better. They need a CF and Melky is not the answer. Cant do much at third, short or second base either. I think the lineup “on papar” is better than anythnig else out there if it performs to its capabilities. That s the issue for me, why did it perform so badly, how can they correct it?
I for one drop it at Girardis feet, but thats another story
Stop Boston Please:
very good point.i agree posada is no nonsense and kept everyone pushing forward.
no leaders now not even by example and girardi looks like he should be a fan in the front row.
“This team died when Jorge Posada went on the DL. We were 3 games out of first the day he decided to have the surgery, and now we are in 4th place, probably to stay.”
I agree with that. Jorge always seemed to be a major leader and motivator in the clubhouse, losing him for the season was a major blow. Its tough to lose your full time catcher and still compete. Look what happened to Boston when Varitek went down 2 years? ago.
I think they need someone with a little more intensity on the coaching staff also. Bowa always had enthusiasm busting from his seams, you don’t get that with any of the current coaches.
Someone really needs to convince Paul O’Neill to sign on as the bench coach.
“under the cba a player can take no more than a 20 percent pay cut wich put’s pettitte’s salary if he accepts arbitration at 12.8 million dollars wich is not as bad as long as he is the 4th or 5th starter.”
I think the 80% rule is in play if (and only if) arbitration is involved.
For example, Pavano is not guaranteed to make 80% of what he stole from the Yankees next season.
“i think the yankees should package cano,kennedy and others for a great young pitcher if possible someone like volquez,billingsley even if we have to make a can’t refuse offer like cano,kennedy,ajax and someone else.”
Seriously? You’d ship out A-Jax and Cano for a national league pitcher with an extremely short history of success?
I sure hope the front office signs back Cashman and not you.
burnett would be a huge mistake.sheets is a better option or trade for peavey.
This quote from Andy to the NY Times:
“Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte said. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”
Since Andy proved it’s not about the money when he left for the Astros, I don’t think his salary next season would be any issue.
I don’t think O’Neill would do it, first off, and I don’t think he really would be all that good at it. His TV personality is blah for the most part. With him his emotion was more driven by his play. I don’t think that will translate to a coaching job.
Bowa should never have been let go. He was a far better 3rd base coach than Meacham and would have been a good foil to Girardi’s methods.
Bruce, they aren’t going to trade for Peavy. That would create more holes because of who they would have to give up to get him.
Sheets is probably more injury prone than Burnett. I think it would be a wash as to which one would work out better. I think Burnett is more likely only due to the rumors of him saying he wants to play in NY.
“I think Burnett is more likely only due to the rumors of him saying he wants to play in NY.”
That and Hank blurted out that he was interested in him – the technical term for this is ‘tampering’
“We all marveled about IPK’s maturity back when he first broke in to the bigs. And THEN? He melted down when he failed this year.”
ThinDC, I’m not going to let you rain on my parade. Aceves was a wolf out there lat night and it was very refreshing. I am not saying he’s the next Joba but he seems like he’s got the right mindframe. You know… “Here it is and you’re going to have to hit it cause I’m not giving you a pass.”
Aceves = hopefully an oak
IPK = a flower
Andy,
Thanks, but no thanks. You’re a barely mediocre pitcher at this stage of your career. The Yankees have to be able to do better in ’09.
I completely agree with several other posters that the Yankees cannot bring back both Mussina and Pettitte. I’m not a huge Mussina fan, but give him a one-year deal and we should be okay. Thank Andy for his contributions and wish him well on the ranch.
BronxJeers -
Maybe this rough season has made me too cynical – Don’t mean to bring you down
I do like the fact that he has so much experience in the Mexican League, which means that he has probably been tested emotionally as well as competitively.
Like I said earlier – depth, depth and more depth in the rotation is what we need – Aceves being part of that would be great. (and cost effective too!)
Girardi and O’Neill are very close friends. Girardi offered him a coaching position on the staff and O’Neill declined. He still wants to spend his time with his kids (he coaches one of his son’s teams) and keep work commitments to a minimum.
Let’s not annoint Aceves. Its a nice story. However, as others have noted, let’s see what happens once the league has a book on him.
What we saw last night was a back of the rotation starter at best. That’s the problem with the Yankees. Their entire staff consists of guys like Aceves.
Have to raise the pitching bar if you want to go back to the playoffs again. Is Aceves a guy that can do it? Doubtful.
Nice story but, I wouldn’t draw up my 2009 rotation with him part of it.
I cannot understand the reasoning of those individuals who keep advocating for Abreu’s release. There might be a lot of things wrong with the Yankees but a consistant .300 hitter like Abreu is not one of them. I just hope the Yankees are not foolish enough to let some other team offer him big bucks and we end up losing him.
Peavy isn’t coming here because the Padres aren’t going to trade him to anybody. He’s under a team friendly contract that he just signed last off-season, so forget about him. AJ, CC, Sheets are all possibilities, although CC is the only one of those three that I really want. The other two may just end up being hurt all the time.
I think trading some good pitching could net us Ryan Howard, but if we want a high strikeout and low average but high OPS player, we should just sign Adam Dunn and keep our prospects.
These are the players I would like the Yankees to pursue: David DeJesus-Matt Kemp-Chad Billingsley-Oliver Perez-Orlando Hudson-Carl Crawford-Jake Peavy-Erick Bedard-Ricky Weeks-Matt Cain-Conor Jackson.
Please God,let them trade Cano….and his pal Melky.I noticed that Cano started to hit and play better when Melky was optioned,but has regressed once again when Melky returned.Could be melky is a bad influence,or,as a tandem, do not work as well as the original template for Yankee clubhouse buddies and their shenaganians i.e Mssrs Mantle Martin and Ford.
what was the history Aceves and Jeter made? helping the Yankees win a game in Anahiem for the first time this decade?
“What we saw last night was a back of the rotation starter at best. That’s the problem with the Yankees. Their entire staff consists of guys like Aceves.”
Exactly. To make things worse, all of our prospects (with the exception of Joba) have shown us back end of the rotation talent. I sure hope Hughes (or anyone else for that matter) makes some jaws drop next year or else the Hank is going to want to trade the whole farm.
I agree with the above comments about Aceves, however, I wouldn’t automatically relegate him to the scrap heap because he doesn’t have a big time reputation or pedigree. Let’s see what he does over time. He may be a very useful major league pitcher, or a flash in the pan. Let he, himself, show what he can do.
Opening Day 09 Baby
1. Figgins 2B
2. Jeter SS
3. Damon LF
4. A-Rod 3B
5. Fielder 1B
6. Nady RF
7. Posada DH
8. Kemp CF
9. Molina C
Matsui/Prospects to Angels for Figgins
Prospects to Dodgers for Kemp
Cano to Milwaukee for Fielder
Molina starts the year behind the dish, while taking it slow with Jorgie.
Johnny slides down to 3rd in the order. Has as much pop as Abreu, still runs well and works the count.
We need a guy like Figgins at the top
Bye Bye Giambi, Abreu
http://www.boston.com/sports/f....._injuries/
what? no ’06 Varitek ?
Yanksfanmc-
I want what your smoking.
These lineups some people are proposing are indeed very creative, but lets be a little realistic people.
I think a name to watch is Rocco Baldelli. Hes only 27, and when hes healthy he’s a great player. He’s a free agent which would likely cost the Yankees next to nothing.
agreed Brian. I like Baldelli. i wonder what the price would be though. not a ton of outfielders on the free-agent market. supply… demand…
Congrats, Jorge, that must have been lots of fun watching the game in the Yucatan.
TKinDC: the spread is Cal -14.5. What say you? Wager?
Watch out about Baldelli.
His is an incredible story, and he should be congratulated and praised much like Jon Lester for his comeback, but we need a certain amount of realism, I think.
According to the stories in the newspapers, he’s been diagnosed with what’s known as a mitochondrial oxidation defect. This means that his body has difficulty making energy, and is the cause for his problems with fatigue in the past. He has come back to play only after a tremendous amount of work, therapy, and courage. However, I would seriously wonder about how long he can be a productive balllayer, given the potentially progressive nature of the disease, and whether he could stand up to the rigors of a full season.
SOme of the people some posters want to bring in are not great picks.
Hudson? hes older now, and he was a spare part in the AL. Ricky Weeks? hes a 220 hitter in an awful weak league. Fielder cant run, cant field strikes out a ton and has a low average and low on base % again in a weak league.
Baldelli? ye, nice player, but on the DL almost as much as Pavano.
Abreu puts up good at bats, and good #`s lets keep Bobby. He`ll be hard to replace
sign sabathia,trade for peavey,sign moose to one year deal to be the 4th starter.
rotation of sabathia,peavey,wang,mussina,joba.
trade whatever it takes to get a good young high obp center fielder and first baseman.
trade damon and matsui,nady in right or left,posada dh,sign an outfielder.
Random thoughts:
… Pettitte worth $4-$6m/yr? Please show me a league average FA who makes/will sign for that little. What does Washburn make? That kind of money hardly buys you a bat boy.
… Moose will NOT need a 2 yr contract. Every Win gets him closer to the HOF. He doesn’t want to leave the Yankees.
… If Moose Wins 17+ with this years sick offense, I think he will be happy to return. There are better offenses in the game… but will they want Moose? Does Moose want to leave NY for his 1 final year (and miss the new stadium). Moose can get to 290 Wins (or more) with the 2009 Yankees
… SJ, what would a .800-.850 OPS 1Bman cost and for how many years? I’m not saying it’s a no brainer, but Giambi for 1 year at $17m is worth considering.
… We have 2 starters. Wang and Hughes/Joba. Even if we get CC and AJ, we need another. There’s certain room for Moose OR Andy. And that’s IF we get TWO frontline starters.
… “I don`t want both Mussina and Petitte back.” I agree with the sentiment if, IF, IF you can replace them with better. The FA pitching market is very tough, even for league average guys.
… While AA has looked great so far, I’m not sure we can count on him for the 2009 rotation. A #6 or #7? Sure.
… “You can have sentimentality, but the Yankees cannot.” It’s an interesting question, but I’m not sure the FO agrees with you. Mo, Po, ARod, Jeter and Bernie all got contracts for longer then they were/might be productive. However, I believe the FO LIKES lifetime Yankees. I believe part of their wealth, and part of the $200m payroll is spent on ‘sentimentality’, or rather history and tradition. In 2011, we may regreat Po’s contract. In 2014, we may regret ARod’s contract. But in 2020, Yankees fans will be glad this guys retired ar Yankees. Mickey Mantle was pretty bad his last 2 years. Batted .236 his last year. Should the Yankees have traded him? Are YOU glad they didn’t? Yankees money allows us to make ‘less then ultimate’ deals with players, true Yankees, for posteritys sake. I don’t think this thinking is an accident. The Yankees could make close to ONE HALF BILLION dollars buy selling the new Stadium’s naming rights. But they’re not.Good business decision? No. Done for sentimentality and tradition. Yes.
i think the yankees should package cano,kennedy and others for a great young pitcher if possible someone like volquez,billingsley even if we have to make a can’t refuse offer like cano,kennedy,ajax and someone else.it will allow them to package hughes for a good young center fielder.now they replace hughes and lock down center field.
That is too much, and you’ll end up doing the same thing selling low on high value young players. Austin hasn’t even reached his potential yet, neither has Cano. Billingsley is not enough..Volquez on the other hand is, but we could get that just for a Curtis/Hughes package if you really want him, there is no need to overstock pay for a Billingsley he’s not worth it.
This is part of the logic that they do need to follow, so it’s a step in the right direction. As good as Aceves pitched last night I’d package him w/ Kennedy in the offseason if I can.
MY GOD SHUT UP ABOUT ARROYO POP TART !
Doreen,
Yes, a shift in mindset is necessary. However, when players are compensated on the basis of the numbers they produce, making that shift in mindset will be difficult. Attitude change isn’t likely for players accustomed to the present “smash or burn” philosophy on the Yankees. Thus, wholesale changes in roster are necessary (even though massive changes are unlikely)and the cold-hearted approach will be necessary as well. I would go so far as to shop his royal majesty at ss, in my opinion, one of the main sources of low energy commitment to winning.
Joe from Long Island, thanks for the info on Baldelli and the energy thing. I wouldn’t sign him without a legit backup plan (Melky/Gardner, possibly A.Jackson later in ’09). A 1 year deal to let him prove himself, while not locking the Yanks into any long-term deal (see Jackson). And buy him a bunch of Red Bull, as well.
Hey trisha – amazing what one win will do for an optimist!
Here’s a “feel good for the rest of the country: The Yankees won’t see any baseball in October in 2008!
That loss meant nothing to the Red Sox chances to repeat as World Champs this year……and much to your dismay, you know it’s going to happen!
I see Bobby Meacham gone with current bench coach Rob Thomson taking over as 3rd base coach.
Tino Martinez and his enthusiasm will be Girardi’s bench coach. His old No. 24 presents no problem with Cano gone in a deal for a better centerfielder.