Jeter vs. Rose
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 16, 2008 
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I have a love/hate relationship with Joe Posnanski, the great columnist of the Kansas City Star.
He digs Springsteen, baseball and searching for good chow on the road. So obviously he’s good people. But he makes the rest of us sportswriters look like no-account, talentless slackers. Meanwhile, he’s intent on breaking the interweb with his 5,000-word posts.
His latest blog take is on Derek Jeter vs. Pete Rose. Who’s better?
Never let it be said that I don’t find ways for you to kill time at work. Bookmark Joe Pos, too.
Headed to the Stadium in a bit. Check back later for more on your squad. Maybe Jorge Posada will have something else crazy to say.
I love Joe’s articles. I also think that if hitting over .300 is a bad year for Jete, then he’ll be the hit king some day.
Geez…this Joe guy can really write…
Rose w/o even reading that article.
Great article Pete. Thanks for the link.
Skimming the comments section afterwards, it’s amazing to me that there really are people out there who don’t like Derek Jeter.
Brandon did you ever see Pete Rose play?
I didn’t think so, the hatred for Jeter is unbelieveable. People have such short memories
Doreen it’s not that they don’t like Jeter it’s about how he is percieved for instance I think it was a few years ago that Big Papi was hitting walkoff shots per week and then Jetes had one big bloop RF hit in Boston that brought out this stat about his clutch factor being more valueable than David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez…. I don’t want to overstate this so much but Jeter is not getting to Pete Rose’s record not as much as his game is diminishing. Rose was simply a better hitter, just like Ortiz in 06′ was the better clutch performer.
The percieved notion here through that article is talking about Jeter being superior to Pete Rose, Rose leads baseball in hitting alltime I’m sorry but Jetes isn’t getting to that record.
Both at age 34 Jeter has 2530 hits, just 17 behind Rose and his 2547
I’d lean to Rose. The ability to switch hit and play average to above average defense at several positions over his career gives him a small edge to me.
Lot of similarities otherwise. Obviously both great hitters in a tablesetting role. Both won. Both raised their games when it came to October. Hopefully, they’ll both be HOF’ers one day.
Wow, uh, thanks, Pete. That was painful. I had to skim through it. That could’ve been broken down, and done over 5 days.
I’ve got no problem with people saying that Pete is better than Jete.
Different eras, different players, different everything.
-Pete was more “blue-collar” and Jeter more pretty-boy so it “appears” that one worked harder than the other.
-Jeter plays in an era of parity.
-The level of athleticism is much higher.
-There’s better pitching now(correct me if I’m wrong).
-There was juiced pitching until recently.
-And obviously, Jeter respects the integrity of the game more than the other ever did.
It does kill me when Yankee “fans” call Jeter out for all his slap singles. Whatever, if Jeter wants to bunt for 3000 singles that would be quite an accomplishment in itself.
Still, it’s difficult to judge because, contrary to popular belief, Jeter is not done.
Pete Rose played on Astro turf much different than today
Brandon did you ever see Pete Rose play?
No but my dad and uncle showed me VHS videos of the Reds back then and even told me stories about Rose being at Shea and how great a hitter he was. I asked my uncle aren’t you a Yankees fan he told me yup, but those years he was a big Tony Perez fan too.
“-Jeter plays in an era of parity.”
How do you figure???
Both at age 34 Jeter has 2530 hits, just 17 behind Rose and his 2547
Except Rose was showing signs of wearing down, Jetes is. Just check his numbers vs power pitching that’s no coincidence, his OPS, they know he’s getting to his final years. I wouldn’t be surprised if after his current contract he hangs them.
Except Rose wasn’t*
Best joke of the Day
What is the difference between the METS and TNT(ie the television network)???
TNT has “the Closer”
Doreen, Just wondering, did you by chance ever live in Maspeth, Queens growing up, you sound so familiar to me.
LOL good one gayle.
Fredo,
Contrary to popular belief, everyone can afford all-stars now, not just the Yankees.
Maybe that was a bad example, but over the past 8 years we’ve had a lot of different teams that could have won it and, indeed, have won it.
Don’t know much about Pete’s era, I was a babe in the woods then.
I can’t believe I just read that whole Rose vs. Jeter essay. So good though. Maybe I will buy his book.
mel what were you doing in the woods..
Parity? That is a stretch, to say the least.
I’ll actually take Jeter in this debate. Not a Yankees fan, either.
I think an average shortstop with gold gloves is more valuable than an average LF/RF/1B with gold gloves.
Most other things are fairly comparable, although I think Joe downplayed the clear difference in power. I think playing a premium defensive position gives him the slight edge.
The one thing I got out of this article is a new appreciation for Pete Rose. He was a much more productive player than I gave him credit for.
Good Afternoon.
I have not posted in months due to business travel and a summer in Maine. I have read from time to time but due to the way the season was unfolding I could not find a proper time to jump in
The Yankee win last night put the AL East 31 games over .500 vs. the vaunted AL Central. Anyone else remember the pre season pundits claiming the Central to be the best division in MLB?
Anyway, it is just not the same w/out the Yanks. I just can not get that fired up over the Rays. I would rather beat my big brother than a distant cousin I barely know..
Respectfully. -dennis
I don’t know if Jeter is showing signs of “wearing down” as much as his hand is feeling better.
He’s hit the ball much harder the past 3 weeks.
Could it be that his hand is finally back to 100%?
Also, the comparisons between Jeter and Rose aren’t really valid.
As Fredo points out, Rose was a switch hitter. That gives him a great advantage at the plate.
Jeter, unlike Rose, plays a physically more demanding position. If he wears down at all, its going to come from playing SS late into his career.
Doreen,
I also don’t get the dislike some folks have toward Jeter. Its as if guys like Jeter and Arod ALWAYS have to come through. If they don’t, folks lose their minds.
I can’t wait until next year and see the reaction to Mariano if he has the nerve to blow TWO save opportunities in a season instead of the one he has this year.
I could see the posts now, “How could Cashman be so stupid as to sign him to a long term contract”.
“Rose w/o even reading that article.”
You wouldn’t want all that info to cloud your opinion? Nice.
So so we do a drinking game for FatBoy how many times he chuckles “That bullpen” on his show ?
Mel:
Gap in salaries back then was nowhere near what it is now.
Athletically, today’s players are better, in some part due to PED’s and in some part due to more information, medically speaking and training-wise.
For my money, the starting pitching was a little better in 60′ and 70′s as teams used 4 starters for the most part and there were fewer teams. In today’s game, 10%-20% of the starters out there have no business being in the bigs. That said, the specialization of today and the use of bullpens probably makes it harder on the hitters of today than Rose had it.
Brandon -
That was my quick comment regarding the comments after the article.
I saw Pete Rose play. I watched him take down little Buddy Harrelson. (I was an ardent Mets fan at the time, and Buddy was my personal favorite.)
Anyway, the way I see it is the two are not really alike. Their stats are alike, their instincts for the game are alike. BUT they are so different in their personalities that it’s difficult for me to compare the two. Pete Rose had a killer instinct. Anyone who watched him play knows that he would stop at nothing to get where he was going. And I know Derek dove into the stands, but I don’t think I’d ever see Derek Jeter go after a Bud Harrelson. I just don’t think so.
I couldn’t tell you who I’d rather have on my team. I hated some of the things Pete Rose did as a player, but no one played harder. I think Pete Rose played as if he had something to prove every day. Derek doesn’t play that way. Derek is confident – Rose is whatever it is that’s even more than that – belligerent, in-your-face. Not Jeter-like at all.
So, who’s the better player? I guess it depends on what you want to see. I think Pete Rose was overall more exciting a player than Jeter, though Jeter can pretty exciting. And there’s something about seeing a fireplug out there hustling all the time. I’d give Rose an edge, but I’d rather have Derek Jeter – and that’s a reflection of my personality.
Brandon,
Haha. Frolicking, of course!
What does Astro-turf have to do with it? Does that mean that balls skate on the slick surface compared to grass? Advantage turf?
Anyone who says Jeter is and was a “dreadful” defensive shortstop simply has an agenda against him and is biased.
Jeter was never dreadful defensively. Any truly neutral observer without an axe to grind would be forced to agree. It is simply ridiculous to say otherwise.
In the end, Jeter will get into the Hall of Fame and Rose…well, won’t.
I don’t think one is better than the other, necessarily, but I would rather have Jeter on my team.
SJ44 -
Oh, yes, absolutely, regarding Mariano. I believe people are lying in wait, ready to pounce. They were at the ready this year, with the Mariano is ineffective in tie games.
Fortunately, Mariano is a god, and he will never fail again!
“As Fredo points out, Rose was a switch hitter. That gives him a great advantage at the plate.”
GAVE him an advantage???? Not buying it. It’s an advantage he EARNED by having the skills to do it and do it well. Rose was a real switch hitter, not a Wilson Betimit switch hitter (read: one who can’t hit a lick from one side of the plate). He hit at or near .300 from both sides of the plate over a career where the league average was .265.
SJ: Since Mo only pitches in wins or tie games, it’s unlikely fans would ever blame him as being the cause of a team’s struggles.
Unless you’re, you know, the Mets.
“Anyone who says Jeter is and was a “dreadful†defensive shortstop simply has an agenda against him and is biased.”
I’ll agree dreadful is too strong a word. However, calling him dreadful is nearly as fradulent as giving him a Gold Glove. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Who cares? They’re both glorified singles hitters.
Fredo,
Thanks for that. Just trying to point out that I think today’s game is better.
As for the athletes? I think that baseball money and guaranteed contracts is drawing more of the multi-sport athletes. Very athletic players.
Right off the top of my head-Jeff Samardzjia (sp?) passed up football and is out performing expectations already. Tough on hitters.
Another one? Right in our own back yard. Austin Jackson, passed up basketball scholarships to toil in the minor leagues. He’s already robbed two players of HR in one game.
Those kinds of things make it tough on hitters now.
Mel,
The turf in stadiums like Veterans Stadium (Philadelphia), the old Busch Stadium (St. Louis), Three Rivers Stadium (Pittsburgh), the old Olympic Stadium (Montreal), The Astrodome (Houston) and Riverfront Stadium (Cincinnati) were lightening fast.
6 stadiums with turf in the NL in Rose’s day, including his home ballparks. That’s a lot of games on turf to get hits.
A lot of Rose’s hits in those ballparks would have been outs on natural grass surfaces.
He also got a lot of doubles those turf fields because, when the ball hit the OF, it just ran to the wall.
It was called “Astroturf” because it was invented by the Monsanto Company in Houston.
It could have also been called that because of the way the ball reacted to it when hit. Like it was from outerspace. lol
Even today’s field turf plays more like grass than Astroturf did.
Mel, the starting pitchers in Rose’s era were for the most part, much better. The difference is, he faced some tired starters, because the bullpens were nowhere what the average team has now. Rose’s big advantage was playing at least 120 games a year on turf. Every team he played on after 1967 had turf. That was most likely an average of 20 hits a year. He didn’t hit a lot of fly balls, more line drives and grounders through the infield. Not to knock him, but, it’s doubtful that he would have broken Cobb’s hits record without turf. Before anybody drops the “Yeah, but Cobb didn’t face black or Latin pitchers” line, exactly how many pitched during Rose’s era, and, for that matter, how many during Jeter’s time are minority pitchers? Those that were in the ’60s were mainly second rate. You had the Bob Gibsons, Juan Marichals, and Al Downings, but, they were rare.
Fredo,
By “gave”, I mean, its an advantage to be a switch hitter (obviously a good one) over a guy who only hits from one side of the plate.
Well we could point out the short porch and slow grass in the infield that gave Jeter his inf singles/HR. Every stadium has it’s factor the fact that Rose played all those games on turf people forget playing on turf day to day is not an easy thing to do for a human being.
I know the stats say this and that but my mind keeps telling me had Paul Oneill or Bernie or not been the #3 hitter this isn’t even a thought. I still say Pete Rose was a better hitter and Jeter will fall short but not by that huge a margin. It’ll be the same thing when the Red Sox fans years from now start making the arguement that Dustin Pedroia has a chance to be a better hitter than Jeter. This is how it always goes.
SJ & GB7,
Thanks! And I figured that Astro-turf had some connection with Houston. I thought it had something to do with the Astrodome, though.
The field-turf is distracting for me. When you see players go down, it’s like a swarm of gnats flying in the air.
I really like the University of Phoenix Stadium in Arizona with it’s natural grass indoors. It’s neat how they open it daily so it can get sun. Perfect synergy! Grass and air conditioning.
A guy who is a groundball hitter playing on turf in the 70′s had a big advantage. Moreso than playing with a short porch in rightfield.
As GB points out, its also different because of the growth of bullpens in today’s baseball.
Hitters today face different pitchers throughout the game. It was not like that in the 60′s and 70′s.
Different eras and the game has changed greatly over time.
If Derek Jeter played in the 60′s and 70′s in the NL, he would have been God. Not the least of which is the fact that at 6-3, 215, he would have been one of the biggest players in the NL.
Whole different game the way its played today.
*clarification:
The rubber pellets that go flying in the air are like a swarm of gnats. Not the players.
Mel:
Somethings about today’s game are better. Some aren’t. What’s true to say is that they are definitely different, which is why Pete’s crony is painting them within the context of the eras in which they played.
There were tremendous athletes in Rose’s era. Dave Winfield, for example, was drafted by an MLB team (Padres) an NFL team (Vikings), an NBA team (Atlanta) and an ABA team (Utah). The Orioles had a pitcher named Tim Stoddard, who was the starting forward on the NC State Basketball team that beat the Bill Walton-led UCLA team in the Final Four, ending UCLA’s seven year run as the NCAA champs.
Astroturf was developed because the grass died inside the Astrodome. The roof at first had clear glass panels, and the grass grew alright, but the glare was so bad that they couldn’t see the ball. They painted the panels and the grass died. The origional Astroturf was actually nothing more than outdoor carpeting laid over asphalt surfaces.
I had a Pete Rose on the expos ’85 baseball card.
If it wasn’t for 2003 Jeter would have more hits than Rose at this age.
Call me a homer, I say Jeter is better….
Tom,
Totally agree. Jeter is better by virtue of being a Yankee. Any arguments end there.
ANYBODY WANT TO BET THAT JETER BREAKS MY HITS RECORD?
it will be tough
pete
“Who cares? They’re both glorified singles hitters.”
your right…they dont even deserve a mention of..ever…singles are useless and unimportant
***********sarcasmn much intended*************
Dan
September 16th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Who cares? They’re both glorified singles hitters.
_____________________________________________________-
For being “glorified singles hitters” Rose had 1041 extra base hits and Jeter has 674 extra base hits and both have over 1000 RBI. Not bad for “glorified singles hitter”.
gayle!! Good one!! I just used it on a co-worker!!
I dont know if anyone has said this. But IMO Jeter has the EDGE and is DRIVEN. Not including beating him on the hot women count. JETER hands down.
Yes, Pete Rose did compile many hits in what was commonly called “cookiecutter stadiums” but there no denying what happened when Pete Rose sat on a tack. Pete rose . . . quickly.
maybe Cap can bet on games and his own team and then deny it for a decade even with mountains of evidence.
Not really buying the turf argument either. Rose had 8040 plate appearances on turf and 7850 on grass and his numbers wee virtually identical across the board. His batting average was an identical .303 on both surfaces. In fact, his OPS and BAbip were better on grass. He had more EXBH’s on grass. The man was just a great hitter…..no matter where you put him.
Whenever we get into family debates about comparisons of players of different eras, my dad’s argument always goes to expansion of teams in the league has diluted the talent of all teams so comparisons can’t be made from one era to another. His argument does have some credibility(don’t tell him I said that though)
Rose is an interesting case for comparison though because his career spans such a long time frame that there were probably 10 teams added to the league over the course of his time in the majors.
I grew up outside Cincinatti in the 60s and early 70s and was a big Reds fan (and big Rose fan – you couldn’t love the Reds and not love him). I watched Rose play a lot and when I didn’t watch listened to their games on the radio (TV didn’t show all the games back then). The astroturf thing is a bogus issue – old Crosley field never had it and Rose wasn’t a groundball hitter – he was a line drive hitter. Plus, Rose never had any speed, and back then the infielders just played deeper on guys like that. But he did play the first part of his career a pitcher’s era – that’s well known – and to me that is way more of a factor in assessing the first half of Rose’s career.
Pat, the debate about diluted talent has a flaw. The population in the USA has nearly doubled in the last 30-40 years and the introduction of world wide talent has more than made up for the “diluted talent”
pat,
But according to Joe Morgan, all those Big Red teams had all the talent. The other teams were rubbish.
Its a shame Pete Rose was such a vainglorious jerk who thought he wouldn’t get caught. He played baseball as if every at-bat was his last. Too bad his addiction was gambling,if it were drugs, it probably would have been forgotten by now.
I agree that he was never a gold glove. Doesn’t warrant using the blatantly erroneous term “dreadful”.
He is nowhere near that bad and never was.
kennedy, rasner, and betemit for nate mcclouth?
rose played less than 5 of his 24 years in Crosley Field.
McClouth has to be the most overrated OF asked by NYY fans, it all started w/ fatboy on WFAN. If you really look at McClouth game after game you’d see he can’t play CF, he doesn’t read the ball well, he is really a COF.
but we were only talking about through age 34, so its a bigger percentage.
I don’t think you can compare the two fairly. The article tries almost to the point of exhaustion but IMO the decision will always be subjective.
I doubt Jeter will catch Rose in hits and it doesn’t really matter anyway.
The Big Red Machine did have it all.
At the time, they were a monster.
“But according to Joe Morgan, all those Big Red teams had all the talent. The other teams were rubbish.”
Don’t know about that, but the everyday lineup from that 1976 team was the best I’ve ever seen.
I’m not partial to Joe Morgan as an game announcer/analyst/whatever, but he is when it comes to being exceedingly proud of the team he played on, you can’t criticize the man.
Actually their pitching wasn’t so great. After Gullett it was mostly just capable guys. But Sparky was very good in getting the most out of his pen, and their defense was superb.
Jeter getting to 4,000 hits or more will depend on how much he wants to play after this contract. Rose picked up more than 300 hits as a player manager. It’s doubtful that he would have played for anyone, other than possibly two years as a pinch hitter for a full time manager.
Oh and no chance the Pirates make that type of deal.
dys-typ-ia?? I meant to type announcer/analylst/whatever he is, BUT when…..
***under….not for***
lol, Fredo, haven’t listened to a Morgan broadcast lately (hmmm, why don’t they have the Yankees on espn anymore?), but it *seems* like the conversation always came back to the Big Red Machine.
This did NOT make my day any better.According to Neil Best colum in todays paper
Michael Kay has re-signed for another three years as YES’ Yankees play-by-play man, which will take him through his 10th season with the network, a person familiar with the deal said
Milton Bradley can’t get here quick enough.
question: didnt pete take roids? Also, different ERA & would he performed so great had he played for the yankees?
gayle,
I don’t know. He’s not as bad now. Is that bad? That Kay’s actually grown on me?
I think that Leiter and O’neill have done a great job bringing back to earth.
“Don’t know about that, but the everyday lineup from that 1976 team was the best I’ve ever seen.”
Better than Murderers row + air head? Or the 90′S Cleveland teams?
Nate Mclouth? Ok I get it. He’s a good young cfer on a bad team and he has some pop this year and the yankees should trade for him. So who are the yankees gonna trade for him?
“question: didnt pete take roids? Also, different ERA & would he performed so great had he played for the yankees?”
1) There’s a better chance Jeter did than Rose. Jeter played in the steroid era, Rose did not.
2) Rose would be a great player anywhere. Check his postseason numbers. He never had a problem rising to the occasion.
GB
That’s why I said Rose is an interesting case. His career was long enough that it spanned a population explosion and the international game.
Kay definitely needs the balance of a Leiter or O’Neill in the booth. Little Flash is coming into his own, too. Cone can also set Kay straight, but Cone repeats himself a little too much to make a point.
Kay just has a whiny voice at times.
Hey,
I just received some Amazon gift certificates from work and I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on the Yankeeography DVD set:
Yankeeography Mega-Set 1-4 (12pc) (2007)
I thought Iris’ post was tongue in cheek.
Brandon, where would Milton Bradley play?
“Better than Murderers row + air head? Or the 90′S Cleveland teams?”
Wasn’t alive for Murderers Row. And yes, better than the 90′s Indians.
I’ll qualify it to say that since 1968, I’ve seen no better everyday 8 (9 minus the pitcher) than the Reds in 1976.
“Michael Kay has re-signed for another three years as YES’ Yankees play-by-play man,”
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Note to Peter Abraham:
Please write book titled:
2008 A Season in Hell with the NY Yankees: From IPK to Michael Kay.
Kay just has a whiny voice at times.
At times ? He sounds like the guy version of Fran Dreschler.
You mean li’l Pete never gave daddy some of his “candy”?
If anyone has had to listen to the White Sox feed and wanted to vomit then you may want to hit this website.
http://www.heavethehawk.com
Take care.
-dennis
“Brandon, where would Milton Bradley play?”
He’d move into Pavano’s DL spot.
Tom,
Bradley would play Kay’s head like a bongo drum.
Brandon, can you explain the joke to Tom? I gotta run.
SJ,
Saying that comparisons are unfair since Rose had the advantage of being a switch hitter may be your weakest point ever. Not mayn weak points for you, but this may be one.
I think this is akin nto saying that you can’t compare Arod and Hank Aaron since Arod is much bigger and stronger. You can’t just take away a guys attriubte when comparing players.
I think you explained it better than I could mel.
Mel, I know the joke… now I just feel silly. excuse me as I wipe this egg off my face…..
wait i just got back from Lunch and francesa is going after someone bad i think Russo what did I miss
It may be hard to believe JEter and Rose played in a different eras (damn I’m getting old) but its true. Anyways, If I was a GM with a time machine, I’d say ‘give me both’.
Turf vs grass, opponents’ bullpens, stadiums, defensive positions, the level of fitness of their competitors are all factors.
Both different types of hitters. Both played different positions. Both have/had different roles in their teams lineups. Jeter may be a more upstanding character off the field, but that’s not really what the comparison’s all about.
It’s not like 10 years ago when you might have found people arguing over whether Jeter or A-Rod was the best SS in the game. Back then, one couldn’t even dream they’d ever play on the same team unless one played a different position. So (until A-Rod switched to 3B) it was actually a good debate to compare A-Rod vs Jeter head-to-head, because they played the same position in the same era (and against the same opponents) so you couldn’t have both.
But … surprise … now we have them both and they’re two of the best players (if not the two best) we have.
Rose vs Jeter? That they’re playing in different eras aside, they could have played on the same team because Rose played 3B & 1B and Jeter played SS. It’s almost an apples & oranges comparison.
Never mind Jeter vs A-Rod or Jeter vs Rose. We have Jeter. We have A-Rod. We even have Rose becoming friend of A-Rod’s. What we really need more than a frivolous comparison is a couple guys playing with Rose’s passion over on the right side of the infield.
Can Brett Gardner be converted to 2B or 1B? He’s shown some hustle recently even though the team’s out of it. Can he become Robbie Cano’s best friend on the team instead of Melky Cabrera, a guy who seems to think it’s important to perfect the jump-hip-bump-boogie-down high five after making a good catch in CF, even when he’s 0-for-3 in the game so far and the team’s down by 4 going in the 8th?
gayle
He’s pounding Raissman for making Mike out to be the bad guy all summer in his columns.
Where you come down to on Jeter vs Rose will depend on how you like Jeter defensively. Those that think Jeter is a good defensive shortstop will probably think Jeter is better. Those that think Jeter isn’t a good defensive shortstop will probably like Rose.
Rose’s biggest attribute and biggest detriment was his ego. It was his ego that allowed him to overcome limited skillsets. Much like his father, and later, his son, all three were ego driven. Rose’s father was a bigtime semi-pro ballplayer (baseball and football) in Cincinnati until he was about 48-50 years old. Rose the elder blamed his wife for not playing pro ball because he made more money playing sem-pro, and he had a family to support. Sounds like he passed the blame gene along with the ego gene to his son, huh?
My pick in the WFAN pool is Francessa and Carlin –
a.k.a. 2 tons of fun.
francessa throwing a pity party for himself…
GB7-
I know its popular to say Rose had a limited skill set. They say it on TV now and they used to say it back then, too. But I grew up watching Rose, and while he didn’t have a “five tool” body, he didn’t have a limited skill set. That guy could flat out play. He hit the ball hard – not just “where they ain’t”. Basically, I think he got the “limited tools” rap because he wasn’t fast and ran down to first on walks.
***plus Rose wasn’t outstanding at any one position***
Brandon -
You should know me by now – I was being kind to Kay. Except for when he’s reading pre-prepared statements, he has a whiny voice.
Regarding the parity issue…
In the last 5 seasons, 20 different mlb teams have made the playoffs.
The Diet Coke bandit and The No Neck baconeater to fit those on a screen would be a task.
Does Mike Francesa need a hug or something?
GB7 -
Ego! That’s the word I was looking for before. Jeter and Rose do not have the same ego, or, rather, the same need to feed the ego. Derek is sure of himself; Rose had something to prove.
But I guess we really don’t care about the people “Rose” and “Jeter” for purposes of this discussion. How come I always end up there?
“But I guess we really don’t care about the people “Rose†and “Jeter†for purposes of this discussion. How come I always end up there?”
Tiebreaker????
I just got in the house from class and popped on the internet WFAN to hear Francessa talking about his salary, how big it is, and how nobody asked his side of the story. Did I miss something or is he just hard up for guests and interesting topics? (Doggy had Madden and Regis Philbin on today.)
Francessa is crazy if anyone thinks the audience will feel sorry for him. His personality is not conducive to being liked.
Doreen, it’s just your need (ego) to get something started. It really was Rose’s ego and need to prove things to his father and others to be the best.His drive annoyed others…in particular Vada Pinson and Frank Robinson during Rose’s first couple of years. They and others perceived his running to first on a walk as false hustle. It was Mantle and Ford that gave him the name “Charley Hustle” during a spring training game in ’63. They loved it and thought the world of him. I tend to look at Pete Rose as being Billy Martin with talent, and maybe that’s what Mantle and Ford saw, too.
Doreen, just teasing about your ego. It’s not that bad.
Doreen-
It’s hard to assess ballplayers objectively “as people”. To Yankee fans, Jeter is as you describe him, confident; sure of himself. To Yankee haters, he’s “arrogant”, a “jerk”.
To Reds’ fans, Rose “gave 110% every day”. To those that weren’t Reds fans, he was a “cocky SOB”.
There’s probably some truth in both perspectives.
lol Typical Fatcessa. Tries to get his side of the story in, but comes off as bitter and arrogant in the process, as usual.
“My solo ratings blow Dog’s away”
“The idea that I was bitter over money is absurd, my salary is much higher than Dog’s:
“I own the 3 highest rated shows in NY, nobody else comes close”
“The idea that Dog can go solo and I can’t is senseless. My Sunday show ratings were astronomical compared to Dog’s”
“My salary compared to (the newspaper writers) is 2 football fields apart. I make more money than all of them combined”
“The media hates me because I ask hard questions, blah blah blah”
Wonder what triggered this rant.
GB7 -
I know.
It’s really too bad that Rose was his own worst enemy. A kid could do worse than want to play baseball like Charlie Hustle.
“The Diet Coke bandit and The No Neck baconeater to fit those on a screen would be a task.”
There is going to be a run on wide-angle lensed HD cameras.
There is going to be a run on wide-angle lensed HD cameras.
Not split screens can help that duo’s matter.
No*
Doreen, Rose’s ego has kept him from being an icon, except those who feel he was unjustly treated. That’s on Pete Rose, Sr. He did it to himself. He broke a written rul on betting on baseball. It’s not the same as drug users, etc. Drugs are bad for society overall. They are society’s laws and punishable. Betting on baseball is akin to attempted murder of the game. That’s what the crime is…”Crimes against the game”. Those are baseball’s laws and punishable.
GB7 -
Oh, I do understand that. It was utter stupidity. But utter ego thinking that what he did wasn’t covered by the rules somehow. Or that he was so good, they’d brush it under the rug.
What always ultimately brings a man (or woman) down? Ego. Thinking that you are bigger or more important than the rest. (Nixon comes to mind.) People can forgive many things, but they don’t forgive hubris.
Yep, totally agree, Doreen. Pete Rose made himself the George Armstrong Custer of baseball. As great as he was, he committed career suicide.
Just a guess, I would presume starting pitching went deeper in rose’s day, eluding to the likely hood rose might see the starter one or more times than do todays players. I believe the likely hood of successfully hitting the starter in the seventh eighth and ninth is greater than hitting the starter during the first six. That would be a decided advantage in roses favor. Nothing to back that up other than a gut feeling. Just a guess.
I saw Rose play, and there is no question that I prefer Jeter. I use the Hall Of Fame Standard in judging those two players. The standard is very simple: How do you measure up with the players of your ERA and with the players in the Hall Of Fame? Jeter wins on BOTH ends. 1: Players whose careers overlapped with Rose such as Aaron and Mays were obviously superior, and I will take Reggie Jackson as well. Who is better than Jeter at his position? You can argue Arod. 2: The standard of Hall Of Fame Shortstops and Hall Of Fame Outfielders are CLEARLY in Jeter’s favor as well (I use outfield because that is where Rose played MOST of his career). If you look at the Shortstops who were better than Jeter, these are the names I come up with: Wagner and Ripken (You can argue Frankie Frisch, Ernie Banks (Despite playing ONLY 8 years there) and again Arod). If you look at outfielders, you have the 3 Yankees (Ruth, Dimaggio, and Mantle), Manny Ramirez, Ted Williams, Cobb, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Griffey and once again Jackson to START with.
Jeter wins hands down.
Are we saying who’s the better hitter or all around player.Jeter won’t touch Rose’s career hits record.And at 34 Jeter looks like a old man making $18 million.
I think Rose is the better hitter but Jeter is the better all-around player if you include haircuts.
I saw Rose for his entire career. The guy was obviously a hitting machine. He could spray it all over the field, bunt and also hit the occasional homerun. As I recall, Pete was an excellent clutch hitter and continued hitting even when his teams were not quite as good. His September 1979 (I think) with the Phillies was incredible. Very versatile in the field, though not spectacular. All around, one of the very best. This coming from a Yankee fan.
Derek Jeter is also an outstanding player. Lots of hits and runs scored. The occasional jack, pretty good with the rbi’s. Excellent situational hitter, though he seems to disdain laying the ball down every now and then. Not much of a walker. More strikeouts than one would like, but not horrible. Pete was better regarding the walks and strikeouts. Jeter is an outstanding baserunner. Not so much the speed, just the really good baseball sense. Pete was more of a run over ‘em and through ‘em kind of guy. Just ask Ray Fosse. Maybe Jeter does not have the greatest range up the middle, but he comes in on balls nicely and goes back on popups with the best. Just ask the fans in the short leftfield stands at the Stadium. Good accurate arm and very good hands. I did a little research last week and discovered that Derek is 30th all-time on shortstop fielding chances. Without any injury this year, he’ll probably end up 26th or 27th at season’s end. It may not sound fantastic, but take a look at the 30th ranked players in other statistics. Frank Robinson is 30th all-time hits, for instance. Many greats are 30th in their respective categories. That’s 30 out of what? A couple of thousand who’ve palyed the position. Not bad. The one common factor for both is that they really seem dedicated to their craft. Rose a real numbers guy, with the drive to win (at all costs?) and Jeter more concerned about winning than personal marks. I too don’t see how Derek can approach Pete’s hit total. He would have to get approximately 200 knocks for eight more years. But 3,300-3,400 ain’t bad!