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A historic achievement for the Moose

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 24, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Baseball Reference.com Stat of the Day is an interesting one.

Mike Mussina is the first AL right-hander to win 19+ games at the age of 39 since Early Wynn went 22-10 for the 1959 White Sox. Back in those days, when men were men, he threw 255.2 innings over 37 starts.

The only other AL right-hander of that age to win 19 games was some dude named Cy Young who did it three times from 1907-09.

Can you imagine that if in April I wrote that that the Yankees would be eliminated on Sept. 23 and the only drama would be whether Mike Mussina could win 20 games? They would have locked me up. Maybe I should get locked up anyway. I’m just saying.

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513 Responses to “A historic achievement for the Moose”

  1. Forntoso September 24th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    We have to bring him back next year

  2. TeKNetick September 24th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    You can tell how bitter Hank is about Torre making the playoffs while Girardi is going home.

    His recent rant shows remorse and if I’m Girardi, I actually feel worse because the owner is showing regret and anger that his former manager is doing so well.

    Just the fact that Hank is allowed to embarrass the franchise with these ridiculous rants shows that Hal has no power at all. If he did, he would have told Hank to shut up a long time ago.

  3. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    Like I said yesterday, I was wrong, I was wrong, I was wrong! I’m a big believer in the Moose now. And yes, he needs to come back. What better team than the Yankees to go for the Holy Grail of pitching with?

    *Repost*, but relevant to the subject.

    This is from mlb.com. The rest is kind of bittersweet, so I’ll just post this graphic:

    Major League slice of life
    A snapshot of the top five leaders in various individual and team categories in baseball from 1995-2007.

    Player Hits
    Derek Jeter 2,356
    Alex Rodriguez 2,239
    Garret Anderson 2,220
    Craig Biggio 2,122
    Manny Ramirez 2,122

    Player Saves
    Trevor Hoffman 499
    Mariano Rivera 443
    Billy Wagner 358
    Troy Percival 324
    Jose Mesa 319

    Player Runs
    Alex Rodriguez 1,497
    Derek Jeter 1,379
    Craig Biggio 1,352
    Barry Bonds 1,337
    Chipper Jones 1,294

    Player Wins
    Greg Maddux 216
    Randy Johnson 203
    Andy Pettitte 201
    Mike Mussina 198
    Tom Glavine 195

    Team Wins
    Yankees 1,252
    Braves 1,230
    Red Sox 1,165
    Indians 1,141
    Cardinals 1,117

    Team Playoff wins
    Yankees 78
    Braves 48
    Cardinals 38
    Indians 35
    Red Sox 33

  4. AlexT September 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    Hank makes people giggle.
    That’s all he does.

    period.

  5. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    *former manager is doing so well in the slums.

  6. jennifer September 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    Listen to this stat!!

    Do you realize that Rasner made the third-most starts this season behind Mussina and Pettitte

    scary!!

  7. patrick max September 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    Santana – 8 innings with 10 Ks last night and only 2 runs. Saving the Mets yet again. He hasn’t lost in over 3 months.

    It’s ok though, we have Hughes and Kennedy to lead us to a title next year.

  8. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    patrick max,

    That’s the spirit! No sense dwelling on the past.

  9. Oddessy September 24th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

    Rasner has made 20 starts for us, that is scary. Ponson has made 14.

    Shows what Cashman/Girardi thought of Hughes/Kennedy that they trotted out those rejects every 5 days in an admitted ‘rebuilding’ year. Instead of getting the kids experience up here, our season sunk on the hands of Ponson/Rasner.

    What a waste of a year. I wish George was still active, he would never stand for this.

  10. BryanS September 24th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    win or lose this weekend, Moose should go in the Hall!!! He does not need a 20 win season to make his career valid!

    Moose back in 09!

  11. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Just for fun, anyone want to throw out starting rotations for the AL East next season?

  12. Dr. J September 24th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Poor TBS.

    Last year they got a Rockies-D’Backs NLCS.
    This year they’ll likely get a Anaheim-Tampa ALCS.

  13. E-Rod September 24th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    Yankees -

    Wang
    Pettitte
    Mussina
    Joba/Aceves
    Hughes

    I have no confidence in their ability to sign CC. He’s going west. I doubt we make any significant trades this off-season either.

    Sox -

    Beckett
    Burnett
    Matsuzaka
    Lester
    Wakefield

    They will trade Buchholz for a young C or OF’er like Kemp because they are a smart organization, while we are not.

    Rays -

    Price
    Kazmir
    Shields
    Garza
    Jackson

    They will package Hellickson, Mcgee, Davis etc. to add even more to their young lineup and probably grab a legit closer. Make no mistake, this team is going to be loaed in 2009.

  14. vin September 24th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    Just wondering… which team is everyone pulling for this postseason since our boys will be golfing?

    I am a part-time Dodgers fan (my dad was born in Brooklyn and remained a fan all these years), but I wouldn’t mind seeing the Cubs go all the way… makes the whole 2004 thing seem a little less impressive.

  15. you gotta have faith (i miss posada)(phil coke is awesome) September 24th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    lol

    even though we are all hurting
    i betcha TBS is hurting more :)

  16. you gotta have faith (i miss posada)(phil coke is awesome) September 24th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    im rooting for the cubbies or maybe even the phillies

  17. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    “Maybe I should get locked up anyway. I’m just saying.”

    hey, it might improve your social life. you never know.

    just kidding . joke.

  18. E-Man September 24th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    Moose is very borderline for the hall. I think he needs 300.

    If he goes in. Then what? Schilling? Pettitte? Cmon, this is the Hall of Fame. It should be the best of the best not the best of the good.

  19. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    you gotta have faith,

    They’ll still end up talking about the Yankees. :)

  20. Bronx Jeers September 24th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

    Moose got 2 yrs/23 mil last contract.
    What do the Yanks offer now. Hard to see him getting less than 11.5 next year.

  21. Cobra 272 September 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    While I think it is a mistake, I think it is very likely we see the same rotation we saw this year except Joba replaces Kennedy. If we miss CC, I doubt Cash wants Burnett or Sheets.

    I also think he will overvalue Hughes/Kennedy and refuse to shop them for a big bat which is a mistake in my mind.

    This organization is going backwards with Cashman at the helm. If we don’t sign CC, whats the plan B? Cash doesn’t have one because he is too attached to prospects.

  22. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

    pete: If any of us had thought that, we’d be locked up.

  23. sw September 24th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    Random statistic: Not only are Moose and Andy potentially battling for one spot in next year’s rotation, they’re also dueling to become the winning-est pitcher of the 2000′s. MLB’s winning-est pitchers from 2000-2008:

    Tim Hudson 135 (out for year with TJ surgery)
    Randy Johnson 134 (losing effectiveness)
    Andy Pettitte 134
    Greg Maddux 133 (losing effectiveness, possibly retiring)
    Mike Mussina 133
    Roy Oswalt 128

  24. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Thanks, E-Man.

    Yankees:
    -Wang
    -AJ
    -Joba
    -Moose
    -Pettitte

    Red Sox:
    -Beckett
    -Matsuzaka
    -Lester
    -Wakefield*
    -Laps/Master

    Rays:
    -Kazmir
    -Price
    -Garza
    -Shields
    -Jackson

    *What a steal for the Red Sox. They’re only paying a guy who can give them 15 wins a year $4M per annum. And this can go on forever. The Red Sox can add the option each year until they decline to pick up an option.

  25. Gary September 24th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    im not sure if anyone mentioned or saw this but espn is calling the red sox team of the decade…

  26. Clint September 24th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    AL – Rays.

    NL – Phillies, by a landslide. Can’t root for the Dodgers/Torre and endure the Yankee bashing that will proceed that. Sick of the Cubs and their stupid curse and they will become Red Sox lite when they win. Despise the Mets but would like to see Santana win a ring just to show Hank/Hal what they missed.

  27. pat September 24th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Who is more upset the Yankees will be idle in October

    a) The players who will be home.

    b) The fans who will not have their team to root for.

    c) The NY beat writers who will have to rehash the season for the 150th time until the hot stove starts

    d) The national media who either needs to find a new October “villain or re-rehash what the Yankee beat writers have written that day about the Yankees not playing.

  28. GS September 24th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    I made a bet in May that this was the year that Moose would win 20 – and I also called that it would be ironic because it would be the year that the Yanks miss the playoffs. I made the bet because Moose always seemed to pitch to keep the Yankees in the game and I thought that would be enough to get the win…

    Moose always has bad luck. If he doesn’t get to 20 wins – you can look back at the ONE BLOWN SAVE that Mariano has had all year. That was a W for Moose….

  29. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    I think the Yankees go hard after both AJ & CC to hedge their bets. There are, after all, open slots if you get both. Can’t risk the eggs in one basket method.

    Also, don’t think they’ll get ridiculous with CC. There’s going to be a cut off point. They’ll make a very good, generous offer and leave it up to CC. No richarding around.

  30. PJH September 24th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    Good thing we have the best bullpen in baseball. Too bad we are eliminated. What a weapon Coke, Bruney, Joba, Marte and Mo would be in a playoff run.

  31. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    Phillies.
    ABB.
    Cubs, I guess. I’m sick of hearing about them.

    Who wins the AL Central?

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say…the Twins.

  32. Blondie September 24th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    Jamie Moyer, 21-7 for the Mariners in 2003 (age 40)

  33. Bronx Jeers September 24th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    Gary September 24th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    im not sure if anyone mentioned or saw this but espn is calling the red sox team of the decade…

    Sure. Who else is there at this point? Maybe Angels if they win it this year.

    Sox must be stopped at all costs. If they win it this season people are going to start the throwing around the “D” word.

  34. sw September 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    Moyer’s lefthanded, as is David Wells, who won 19 with the Yanks at 39 in 2002.

  35. vin September 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    “Gary
    September 24th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
    im not sure if anyone mentioned or saw this but espn is calling the red sox team of the decade…”

    Of course they did… but who else could they say?
    Yanks have been to 3 WS, winning 1.
    Cards are solid every year, made the playoffs a bunch of times and won 1 WS, been to 2.

    Bottom line is the sox have won more WS than anyone else this decade and that’s all that matters – at least that’s the easy way to end the argument.

  36. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    Blondie:

    Having done so for the 1st 39 years of his life, Moyer decided in favor of pitching left-handed for his 40th year as well.

    Pete was rather clear about Mussina being the 1st AL RIGHT-HANDER to win 19 at age 39 or beyond.

  37. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    Blondie,

    Pete’s talking about righties, but still Moyer’s a great story.

    Can’t help but think that Hank’s comment motivated Moose. Just a little.

    Also, it seems that Moose is a better teammate.

  38. E-Rod September 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    I’d root for the Mets against the Cubs or Dodgers believe or or not. The Cubs fanbase/franchise will overtake the Red Sox as the most insufferable in sports if they win. And of course, don’t want Torre to win.

  39. pat September 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    The Orioles knocked 25 million dollars off their payroll this year. Are they trying to go small market or will they be big buyers this off season?

  40. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Pat:

    O’s may well be a player in the Teixeira thing as he is a Baltimore area native.

  41. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    “Sox must be stopped at all costs. If they win it this season people are going to start the throwing around the “D” word.”

    well, cashman made it a top priority to stop the sox. he put in his all. nothing was more important to him than stopping the dreaded sox. yeah right.

    he doesn’t even dislike them. why should he care about stopping them?

  42. Blondie September 24th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Moyer, left-handed … ack. I missed that he didn’t include lefties in the research.

    What’s the point of eliminating Moyer though? Would it have dminished Moose’s achievement to include a guy who happens to throw from the other side? Some of this stuff is just so arbitrary.

  43. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Hey, I hate that the Red Sox are doing so well, but they are a talented team. I like their manager. They’re having themselves a nice little run here. I hate it, but it’s the truth.

    Doesn’t mean the Yankees won’t be back.

    Now, does the decade go from 2000 to 2009 or 2001 to 2010? I always get confused about that. Or are they starting with 2004?

  44. vtred September 24th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    The players will feel the worst. The National Media will play the Cubs angle and still has the Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Chi Sox, to carry them.

    The Yankees are no longer THE franchise in the sport, sadly. It is up to Cashman to restore Yankee pride and bring us back to the top.

  45. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Oooh. Oliver Perez vs. Big Z. And the Brewers have CC going tonight. If things go wrong for the Mets, they could be tied in the WC by the end of the night.

  46. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    And – by the way – that’s cool about Moose.

    I don’t think he’s first ballot HOF, maybe not second, but I think he’ll go in.

  47. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    “The Cubs fanbase/franchise will overtake the Red Sox as the most insufferable in sports if they win.”

    Wouldn’t that be a good thing for Yankee fans, if the Cubs stole some thunder from the Sox?

    Also, if you’re rooting based on the reactions of fans, don’t root for the Mets, unless you enjoy hearing even louder “Yankees suck” chants during subway series games.

    “And of course, don’t want Torre to win.”

    Agreed, not because I have anything against Torre, but because the media fawning over him and criticism of Girardi and the FO for “insulting” Torre would be nauseating.

  48. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

    “Hey, I hate that the Red Sox are doing so well, but they are a talented team. I like their manager. They’re having themselves a nice little run here. I hate it, but it’s the truth.”

    This isn’t all that shocking. If history tells us nothing else, it tells us that the Red Sox always do well at the beginning of centuries.

  49. vin September 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now:

    Which teams may be in contention for CC?

    Yankees
    Chi Sox (might be a good fit)
    Rangers (they have to turn the corner eventually)
    Phillies (makes sense to me)
    Dodgers (better of spending $ on bats)

    Total Darkhorses:
    Braves
    Mariners
    Brewers

    I can’t see the Red Sox and Mets moving on him – they’re money is tied up elsewhere. The Blue Jays don’t need any more starters (let alone lefties). Cubs have big Z and Harden.

  50. pat September 24th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    Fredo

    A Boras /Angelos contract negotiation could be must see TV.

  51. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    “I don’t think he’s first ballot HOF, maybe not second, but I think he’ll go in.”

    I agree. He’ll make it after a few years even if he doesn’t hit 20 wins.

    Even dinosaur voters like Murray Chass will come around and vote for him after a couple years because he’s racked up so many neat accomplishments in a tough era and division.

  52. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    “A Boras /Angelos contract negotiation could be must see TV.”

    Only if the script included both guys spontaneously combusting. :)

  53. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    Anybody else feel their skin crawl watching Paplebon and his obnoxious Sawx brethren dousing each other with champagne?

    You’d think making the playoffs for a reigning WS champion (gag) wouldn’t generate such a celebration. Pointless.

  54. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    Doreen,

    If he gets to 300 wins, he’ll definitely get in. Dude will probably get all his wins in the AL East. And it looks like he’s on track to do it before his 42nd birthday.

    I’m impressed. And I love how he does it more with his brain than his stuff.

  55. you gotta have faith (i miss posada)(phil coke is awesome) September 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    vtred:

    i rather us not be THE franchise in the sport
    i want fans who love the game and the team, not just people who never watch, and only know who derek jeter is

    also it’s much more fun to stick it to the “franchise”

    much more rewarding if you ask me lol

  56. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    *first ballot

  57. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    TK:

    I don’t know. To me, making it to the postseason is the hardest part. Doesn’t bother me much. From what I’ve seen of their past celebrations, last night was relatively subdued.

  58. E-Man September 24th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    “Random statistic: Not only are Moose and Andy potentially battling for one spot in next year’s rotation, they’re also dueling to become the winning-est pitcher of the 2000’s. MLB’s winning-est pitchers from 2000-2008:

    Tim Hudson 135 (out for year with TJ surgery)
    Randy Johnson 134 (losing effectiveness)
    Andy Pettitte 134
    Greg Maddux 133 (losing effectiveness, possibly retiring)
    Mike Mussina 133
    Roy Oswalt 128″

    Randy Johnson actually pitched well this year. Not like him of old but better than Pettitte. 17 of his 29 starts were quality games and he went 6+ innings in 13 of his last 15 games. He suffers from garbage offense though. He’ll be back next year for his 300th win and maybe 5000th strikeout.

    Too bad he couldn’t handle NY.

  59. Bronx Jeers September 24th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    August 10th, Figgins hit that 12 hopper in the 9th as Betemit and Cano both posed.

    Yeah I want that game back too. Actually that series and whole road trip may have been the low point of the season.

  60. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    mel -

    I agree – if he plays and gets 300 wins, he’ll go in first ballot. I base my feelings about 2nd or 3rd ballot on this current numbers, in case he (“r” word). :)

    Have I mentioned before that Moose is probably my favorite Yankee? It’s the crossword puzzles.

  61. mel September 24th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    I don’t begrudge anyone for celebrating because I’d want our guys to celebrate, too.

    I do like that they weren’t celebrating a division title, though.

  62. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    after the game last night someone made a good point,
    for the past couple of years yes we have been making the playoffs, but how many times have we been eliminated in the first round?

    too many times

    we just dont need a team that can get to the playoffs, we need a team that can get there and win it all.

  63. PAT M September 24th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    I was wrong on several fronts this season, from Hughes, to winning 93 games and the AL East….However none of these compare to how off base I was regarding Mussina…I recall proclaiming him to be out of the rotation by Memorial Day……As for Boston, they must go through a very good Anaheim Angel club, their quest for repeating very well will end there…..

  64. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    Bronx Jeers -

    That road trip coincided with my family’s summer vacation. We went to Toronto and watched a game from the stadium and a couple of games from the centerfield windows. Then we went to Cleveland and saw a game there. At any rate, all we did was scoreboard watch. It was painful. Painful. I didn’t watch much of the Yankees at that time, but I remember one of the games in LA was on Fox and we were going out to dinner, but before we left, we witnessed the Yankees actually ahead in the game, and felt confident. Well, by the time we got into the car and put on the radio (XM – hurray!), it was a different game.

    PAINFUL road trip.

  65. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    Doreen,

    Ahh…He was probably my unfavorite Yankee, but that status has been passed on to his understudy. :)

    I’ve really liked the change in his demeanor. No more throwing guys under the bus. And it was very nice of him to credit the bullpen last night.

  66. West Coast Fan September 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    A decade begins with the 1 year (e.g. 1981) and ends with a 0 year (e.g. 1990).

    Let’s go Cubs

    Wang
    CC
    Joba
    Mussina
    Hughes

  67. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    Oh, I should also say, the scoreboards these days have not just the scores, but the infield, so if there were runners on base, you could see that, and they had the name of the batter. Need I say which two Yankees seemed to leave the most men on base? Painful.

  68. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    I think Moose’s HOF chances depend on how the era he played in is viewed by the voters.

    If they are going to stick it to the guys they think did PED’s, then its only fair to take into account the accomplishments of the guys (like Moose) that are thought to be clean.

    If they do that, and he can get another 15-20 wins, he probably gets in.

  69. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Doreen,

    I know one, who’s the other? The one who lives in Vegas?

  70. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    mel -

    He REALLY gave credit to the bullpen. That was nice to hear. He literally could not have done it without them – no more CGs for the Moose.

  71. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    mel -

    Yup.

  72. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    mel -

    Understudy? Fellow Stanford grad?

  73. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    Well, hopefully, Roger will hold off retirement for a couple more years. Being on the ballot with Roger should help Moose. :)

  74. Dr. J September 24th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    I will root for the Rays to win it all.

  75. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    That 3-7 West Coast roadtrip pretty much ended their season.

    They dug themselves a hole that became too much to overcome.

    I would also add that Joba’s injury also hurt bigtime. Once he left the rotation, you kind of saw the air come out of the Yankees balloon. They didn’t show much fight after that.

    I discount this little streak they are on now because it came after they were out of contention. A team that only plays well when the pressure is off is not a playoff team.

  76. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    Doreen,

    Nope, fellow Pac-10 alum. The one that’s compared to Moose.

  77. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    pat m ,
    you weren’t wrong about moose. you were right about the old way he pitched.
    you just didn’t know he was going to do a 180 and pitch inside again.

    and as far as hughes, i think you’re right he’s going to be a good pitcher.
    he just needs developmental time.

  78. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    So, since Boston’s the team of the decade they’ll be getting the night game’s on getaway days to accomodate ESPN and the gate receipts?

  79. PAT M September 24th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    I was at the August 8th ( Kennedy’s start ) & the 9th inning debacle that was August 10th……It was then that I came to the profound conclusion that the 2008 Yankee season was taking on water…..Although I maintained a sense of blinded belief that they’d turn things around as they had in the past, I knew it was over….Never been so wrong about so many things as I was in 2008……Bad season all around…

  80. Bronx Jeers September 24th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    “A decade begins with the 1 year (e.g. 1981) and ends with a 0 year (e.g. 1990).”

    So 1990 was part of the 80′s?

    Maybe that makes sense on the west coast.

    I remember that the Yankees had to beat the Braves in 99′ to become the team of the decade, not the Mets in 2000

  81. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    “So, since Boston’s the team of the decade they’ll be getting the night game’s on getaway days to accomodate ESPN and the gate receipts?”

    I think it is a tribute to their professionalism that the anchors on ESPN take off their Boston Red Sox hats while they are on the air.

    Jerks.

  82. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    If you look around the game, most of the young pitchers Hughes’ age struggled this year. They struggled in the areas of fastball command, maximizing their pitch counts, and winning games.

    In other words, teams tried to push them through before they were ready.

    Its awfully tough to learn how to pitch at the big league level.

    That’s why I hope the Yankees keep Hughes in AAA all next season. Let pitch 150+ innings at the AAA level, learn to use all of his pitches in any count, and let him deal with the ups and downs it brings.

    If they do that, they will get a much better and more finished product if/when he gets his next shot at being a fulltime member of the rotation.

  83. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    mel,

    yep ;)

  84. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    it’s long and I sound depressed, but it’s my thoughts on video

    [/shameless self plug]

  85. Y26 September 24th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    When the pressure was on – They went on a 3-7 West Coast trip. They lost 3 1-run game to the Angels and got swept. They did nothing against the Twins.

    They lost 4/6 to the Jays and then they couldn’t beat Byrd and Wakefield to keep them alive. That was when the season ended.

    They are playing well now because there is no pressure, they were written off 6 weeks ago.

  86. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    I don’t know why some of you guys torture yourselves and watch ESPN.

    You know they are reveling in the Yankees missing the playoffs. Why watch it?

    Its not like you are going to learn anything from watching their shows. Their shows are reduced to three things these days:

    1. Promotions of everything Disney.
    2. ESPN anchors thanking themselves for “breaking news” they didn’t break.
    3. Providing a forum for Peter Gammons daily Red Sox infomericals.

    Aside from that, there is nothing to be gained by watching it.

    Contrary to popular belief, the Yankees aren’t going to fold the franchise because they missed the playoffs this year. Much like the Red Sox didn’t when they missed the post-season in 2006.

    You have to have a season like this to formulate the type of change needed to go forward.

    No more “patch jobs” this off-season. Its now full blown rebuilding and I say, its about damn time.

  87. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    Speaking of the Moose and the Moyer, here’s a really funny blog entry:

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....oyers-way/

    Sounds of Sinatra in my head…

  88. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    SJ –

    I think you are right – the problem is that Yankee fans look at Joba and expect the other young pitchers to adjust to the level of competition as well as he did.

    I think Hughes will benefit from fall ball and when he comes up next year (which seems inevitable given the roster and the injury realities) he is able to pitch to his potential.

  89. Doreen September 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    mel -

    I think I was thinking of the right guy, wrong school. SoCal?

  90. t-rock September 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Agree 100% SJ. The best thing the Yankees can do is leave Hughes in the minors next year and let him throw 150+ dominant AAA innings. By the end of the year, he would have mastered all of his pitches and perfected his changeup. Then in 2010 or end of 2009, he can come up and never have to go back down.

    The worst thing they can do is pencil him into the rotation again based on what he does tonight and in the AFL or even have a ‘competition’ where he is involved because that is not the best for his development. He needs to be in the minors and the 6th starter next year

  91. vin September 24th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    “No more “patch jobs” this off-season. Its now full blown rebuilding and I say, its about damn time.”

    I couldn’t agree more… but would you mind playing arm-chair GM, so we can get an idea of what’s in your head? I know you and I both dislike Cano (but that’s been beaten to death here) and love CC… but what else?

  92. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Hughes has spent time at AAA – another year there will not benefit him.

    Why would ESPN revel in the Yanks being out of the playoffs? They like lower ratings and less advertising revenue for some reason?

  93. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    SJ: I respectfully disagree.

    I don’t think you need to blow up the entire team. I think you need to plan better for instances where your most important players miss most of the season.

    When it comes down to it, we didn’t miss the playoffs by that much.

    A couple different games, a couple different calls go our way and we’re in. A healthy Wag, we’re in. A healthy Jorge, we’re in. ETC.

  94. Miggs (All in for Moose's quest for 20) September 24th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    I’ve been saying this for weeks now, I think Abreu must be resigned.

    I’m all for getting younger, more athletic, etc. But people are grossly undervaluing this guy. What seperated Abreu from the other 30+ overpaid veterans on this roster? Oh yeah, he NEVER gets hurt.

    I love Matsui to death, but the guy is broken down. He missed almost a whole year with the wrist. Then it was the hammy, the knee, now the other knee. Damon is constantly coming up with little nagging injuries. Giambi has spent hundreds of games on the DL the past few years.

    Abreu has played in at least 150 games every year since 1998. His numbers have not tailed off. He’s 34 not 38. Even if you give him a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd year, he’ll only be 36 at the end of the guaranteed portion of the deal.

    Here are his 2008 numbers so far with team ranking below.
    G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB K SB
    152 595 94 178 39 4 19 282 95 69 103 20
    2nd 1st 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd

    .299/.373/.474/.847

    Its a no-brainer to me.

  95. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Doreen,

    Yes.

    Wave Your Hat,

    The bean counters won’t like it, but the talking heads will.

  96. Tank September 24th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    The Yankees need to completely blow it up and bring in a 3rd party to evaluate everything. Too many miscalculations this year…. there has to be an underlying cause. Can’tjust chalk it up to a ‘bad year’. They need to ensure this doesn’t happen again next year.

    The entire organization needs to look completely different next year. A full-scale house cleaning is in order. Don’t panic and make moves just for the sake of it, but bring in someone from the outside to be objective.

  97. Miggs (All in for Moose's quest for 20) September 24th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    I also don’t think full-blown rebuilding is necessary.

    This team isn’t that far off where it needs to be. They need some minor tweaking and to let some of the old blood go away (Giambi, Pettitte or Moose, Pudge, Pavano).

    Signing 2 top FA starters isn’t the answer. You sign one, hopefully CC.

  98. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    “Why would ESPN revel in the Yanks being out of the playoffs? They like lower ratings and less advertising revenue for some reason?”

    It gives them a chance to trot out Hank’s treasure trove of stupid quotes, to mock the highest payroll, etc.

    It is the same phenomenon as people rooting against Notre Dame when they were the dominant college football team or against the Patriots. Some people love it when the mighty have fallen.

  99. YankeeJosh September 24th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    If I’m the Yankees, CC is obviously a free agent pitcher you go hard after, but I have doubts about Burnett and his health. If the team fails to land CC, it might be more prudent to trade for a good pitcher instead of signing a risk.

  100. Bronx Jeers September 24th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Moose can win 300 if wants to as he needs 2 – 2+ yrs to reach it. I think he will. And when he does, he will probably be the last to do it. There is no one on the horizon!

    IMO it’s a plateau that may never be reached again.

  101. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    SJ, you didn’t mean full-blown, right?

    The core is still there. The bullpen is solid. Posada & Matsui returning (hopefully) full-strength.

    I think he means restructuring the whole system, adding top-drawer pitching, finally filling the hole at 1B and temporarily in CF.

    I also think that SJ’s fine with Cano if he shows improvement on both sides of the ball, no?

  102. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    does anyone want to make guesses what the lineup is gonna look like tonight?

    joe said hes going to start playing the rookies but how many is the question

    also they didnt make the rookies dress up this year, did they?

  103. Miggs (All in for Moose's quest for 20) September 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    “If I’m the Yankees, CC is obviously a free agent pitcher you go hard after, but I have doubts about Burnett and his health. If the team fails to land CC, it might be more prudent to trade for a good pitcher instead of signing a risk.”

    Couldn’t agree more. Sheets and Burnett can go let someone else pay them 18 million/year to sit in the trainer’s room. If they don’t get CC, I’d pursue Garland or another starter via trade.

  104. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    There are too many reasons for the Yankees not blow up the team.

  105. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    TK,

    The problem with many Yankee fans is that they look at one young players one way.

    Be great out of the gate or you suck. No in between.

    You are either Derek Jeter or Joba Chamberlain. If you aren’t that, you aren’t anything.

    You can’t develop players that way. Players all don’t develop at the pace fans want them to develop at. If there was an internet back when Bernie started, I GUARANTEE you, the people calling for Hughes to be traded would be BEGGING the Yankees to trade Bernie Williams. Perhaps that’s why, aside from Jeter, Pettitte and Wang, the Yankees haven’t developed consistent, homegrown players in close to 15 years.

    Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. I bet if Brian Cashman did it all over again, he wouldn’t have handed 40% of his rotation to rookies. It helps when you know the results. That’s why its called, “hindsight”.

    Doesn’t mean he would have done the Santana deal. I think he would have insulated himself better with a veteran, back of the rotation guy rather than give both Hughes and Kennedy rotation spots.

    The key is, not repeating the same mistake again. Which, he isn’t.

    That’s why Hughes is going to the AFL to get innings and there is no talk about him being in the rotation next year.

    I think they are going to be VERY aggressive re: starting pitching on the free agent market. How that shakes out will determine how the rest of the remaking of this team goes.

    There are going to be a LOT of changes. You are not only going to see a lot of new faces but, you will see a definite change in attitude with the team.

    I think the players finally realized (too late to salvage this year) that Joe Girardi is not the Anti-Christ. His ranting and raving to them about not taking the early part of the season for granted, which fell on deaf ears to just about the entire team, turned out to be correct.

    I think the players also saw there is a method to some of his madness.

    In the end, they “got” him and I think that will help things next season.

  106. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    The Yanks are in no position for “full-blown rebuilding”.
    Other than Austin Jackson, who won’t be ready before 2010 at the earliest, there are no kids on the offensive side of the ball anywhere near the majors who can help.

    Leaving aside Hughes and Kennedy, there aren’t any pitching prospects anywhere close either, other than some releivers. Guys like Aceves won’t cut it. Brackman is, for now, just a fantasy.

    The Yanks proven ability to draft ballplayers and find young “diamonds in the rough” is subject to debate, to say the least.

    If the Yanks sign a FA pitcher like CC, land Tex and resign Abreu for a year, trade some minor league relievers for some short term role playing help in CF, why can’t they compete?

  107. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    *** relievers ***

  108. Eric September 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    Abreau can’t field a lick. Yanks need to get younger in the OF. Try to trade Damon or Matsui while they can too.

    I try to sign CC, if so…

    CC
    Wang
    Moose
    Joba
    Hughes

  109. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    you gotta have faith,

    Rookie hazing this year is brutal. The team’s making them dress up like Yankees. They’re so humiliated to be associated with such a failed organization.

  110. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    I find it amusing that so many folks are saying “If only xxx had happened . . . “. C’mon, let’s get real. We have only one dependable starter in Mussina. Aceves has pitched well, but he needs to show he’s for real. If the Yankees had somehow miraculously made the playoffs (which we’ve known for weeks wasn’t happening), a rotation of Mussina, Pettite, Aceves and Pavano wouldn’t win more than a game. Not to mention the mediocre offense.

  111. jason September 24th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    SJ – I think this was a year that was needed to convince the Yankees that they need to change course and give them an excuse to sell it to the fans. This should have been done prior to the 2008 season.
    I am curious as to why Hughes if planned properly cannot develop in the majors. Cashman himself said AAA is meaningless (mostly about winning in AAA, not about development). Many teams rushed pitchers because they absolutely have to. 3/4 of the teams cannot afford free agent pitchers so they go with their kids. Even the Yankees did not want to spend on free agent pitchers. At some point in a players career they will make the jump from AAA to the majors and experience growing pains getting used to the enw level etc. I think it is more a case by case basis of evaluating a players readiness to maximize the move and minimize transition pain. If they feel Hughes is fully developed at the AAA level then you have to assess at the major league level. If they feel he is not ready physically or mentally from a pitching standpoint leave him in Scranton.
    I heard Francona up here in Boston being interviewed about Ellsbury – he said that when a player first comes up he gets a pass because opponents don’t have a book on them. Like Ellsbury, Hughes and Kennedy last year, they get by on surprise (like the way the Yankees suck against rookies). Then the league learns and adjusts. Then is it up to the players to adjust. Hughes and Kennedy last year, Aceves and Coke this year look fantastic. The league will adjust and then force the players to adjust back. Can Hughes, kennedy, Ellsbury, Aceves, Coke adjust back – that is what creates a career.

  112. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    “I think the players finally realized (too late to salvage this year) that Joe Girardi is not the Anti-Christ.”

    Now if only we can convince Pete! :)

  113. YankeeJosh September 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    On the team of the decade dbate, while the decade does technically begin with the 1 year (2001), for all intents and purposes n practical use it starts with the 0 year. The 1990′s were 1990-1999. The Yankees were team of the 90′s.

    The Red Sox are clearly ahead in the team of the 2000′s race, but it’s not assured yet. If the Red Sox win it all this year or next, they take it.

    However, if the Angels win it all next year, they take the lead imo. They’d have won the same World Series this decade as the Red Sox but with more divisional titles. The Sox have only won the AL East once, and that hurts them imo.

    The Cardinals are still in th discussion too. They won one World Series and lost another. If they somehow win it all in 2009, they get consideration, since they’d have more World Series appearances than the Red Sox, assuming the Sox don’t get there this year.

    The Yankees still have a chance too to be team of the decade, but only if they win the World Series next year and the Red Sox dont win it this year. Tha would give the team 2 World Championships in the 2000′s (2000 and 2009) and 2 other appearances (2001 and 2003) plus making the playoffs every year but one. That’s an impressive feet that tops Boston imo.

  114. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    ZMan: No, it wouldn’t, but a rotation of Wang, Moose, Joba, ad Andy would have done just fine if they were healthy.

  115. mel September 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    SJ,

    In addition, the players know there will be consequences to not giving your all. That’s really all that Girardi asked this year is that players try their best.

  116. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    mel,

    don’t get too ahead of yourself now, a failed organization is a bit harsh dont you think?

    we are the ny yankees, not the washington nationals lol

  117. Fredo Corleone September 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    “Why would ESPN revel in the Yanks being out of the playoffs? They like lower ratings and less advertising revenue for some reason?”

    There’s a pretty good possibility that the playoffs will consist of 2 Chicago teams, 2 LA teams, a Philly team, a Boston team, a New York team and a great story in the Rays. I doubt ratings/revenue will suffer much.

  118. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    SJ44,

    How do you think the Yankees will rebuild? I take it we let Abreu and Giambi leave and trade Damon, and go with Nady, Miranda (or Teixeira, if we can get him?), and Gardner/Melky?

    Matsui and Posada are immovable. Jeter and ARod stay, obviously. Cano isn’t going anywhere – the Yankees can’t just give up and sell him at his lowest possible value when he previously looked like one of the best players in the league and is still so young.

    Mussina surely comes back. Pettitte could come back on a pay cut. The Yankees will work hard to sign someone with experience to make sure we don’t repeat the Hughes/Kennedy mistake. Problem is, it’s hardly a sure thing that we get a Sabathia and not a Silva, that is, an expensive mediocrity.

    The pen pretty much stays the same. It’s been one of the few pleasant surprises this season.

    What opportunities for rebuilding am I missing?

  119. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    Hughes has already dominated at AAA. It’s moronic to think more time there will help him. Instead of learning to “master” his pitches, he could just as easily fall into bad habits with easy success there.

    I suspect Hughes will be in the starting rotation next year, despite any FO comments, which I don’t take at face value.

    If the Yanks don’t think Hughes can start next year, they ought to trade him now.

  120. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    The problem with many Yankee fans is that they look at one young players one way.
    Be great out of the gate or you suck. No in between.
    You are either Derek Jeter or Joba Chamberlain. If you aren’t that, you aren’t anything.

    Truth…and unfortunately that has been the opinion of the front office from 02-07 and that is why the Yankees are on the outside looking in.

  121. MooseCall September 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    Mussina is the active A.L. leader in career wins. He is the greatest mound artist of the last 40 years.

  122. Miggs (All in for Moose's quest for 20) September 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    SJ44 I have to disagree sorry man. I doubt there will be an overhaul. MANY changes? Probably not.

    This team didn’t win 72 games this year. Its going to be close to 90 wins. They won the World Series winning 87 games in 2000.

    I don’t get all the dramatics and the over-reactions. It was a down year, a BAD year. Lots went wrong. Like someone said before RISP isn’t an exact science. The same team could be great at RISP in 2009. To me, that’s the main reason they aren’t going to the playoffs.

    How is signing CC AND Burnett going to propel them to a championship? Can either of those guys hit? Track down a fly ball? All those signings do is tie up close to 200 million for 5-7 years, which is exactly what they are trying to avoid. How can you do a “massive rebuilding” and sign huge FA contracts at the same time? Doesn’t make much sense to me. If you’re going to do an “overhaul” you do it with young guys. Not 8 figure contracts.

  123. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    Fredo, TV ratings will always improve if the Yanks are in it.

  124. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    “The Yanks are in no position for “full-blown rebuilding”.”

    Huh?

    RF, 1B are going to change and 3/5′s of the rotation is up in the air, not to mention possible bullpen changes, the catcher situation.

    If you are reading rebuilding as only coming from in-house, then I get your point. But the team is going to be dramatically different next year and Girardi is going to be in a position to put his stamp on the team.

  125. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    “but a rotation of Wang, Moose, Joba, ad Andy would have done just fine if they were healthy.”

    Maybe, but it speaks to the state of the team that it had no viable alternatives for Wang in particular. People keep trying to put lipstick on a pig. This team needs to break from its “Here’s a big contract to thank you for the long ago past” approach. Tradition is fine, but a bright future is worth a lot more. To that end, say thanks to Pettitte, but send him on his way. Sentimentality has cost this team dearly during this decade — that, and Cashman’s complete inability to judge pitching.

  126. X-Mannn September 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    If we don’t get CC… Hughes or Cano may be shopped for a starting pitcher.

    Where else are we going to get pitching? What if Burnett re-sign with Toronto or the org. finds medical red flags? Signing Sheets, Perez, Garland etc. doesn’t do it.

    The Yankees are not going into the new stadium with the same rotation they had this year. Not a chance.

  127. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Zman: It’s what I think the main issue this year was–the Yankees didn’t have a plan for failure.

    I think next year they come in with a better back u plan, and that should at the least buy them some time to put something togethe if they have a situation similar to this year.

  128. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    I see no possibility of trading for a good young CF, RF or 1B with the talent we currently have.

    I would, of course, love to turn Kennedy and some surplus minor leaguers into one. But I don’t see it happening. If you do, please tell me, with specificity, who they are and how we get them.

    The Yanks have a short window to compete, as Posada and Jeter aren’t getting any younger. We have no one in the entire organization who can replace them (dream on if you think Montero will come up as a catcher), and no one to trade for one.

    Unfortunately, few ballplayers start out mediocre and blossom through careful development into stars. I wish that were true, but it’s not.

    We need to sign some top free agents, CC, Tex and (I hate his defense too) Abreu, and dance with the girl we came with.

  129. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    i understand that if we let bobby go we get damon in left and nady in right

    but then you have the situation with cf, brett or the melkman?

    personally i dont have that much a problem with bobby, he isnt death when it comes to risp, and hes a good runner, his only downside is his feilding skills but i don’t remember a game we lost because of it

    but if we keep bobby then we get a crowded outfield, and as much as i like damon hes one of the last people i want to see in cf

    coming this winter there are going to be soo many questions, and i cant wait for the answers

  130. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Why is everyone assuming that Abreu is gone…the guy is going to get 20 HR, 100 RBI…an .370 OBP, steal 20 bags….he does it every year.

    Is there a RF on the market this winter that is as consistent as or better than Abreu…the Yankees will sign him to a 3-year deal…as they should IMHO

  131. vin September 24th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    “Maybe, but it speaks to the state of the team that it had no viable alternatives for Wang in particular.”

    How many teams can replace their #1 starter? The Yanks did that, in a way, with Joba, but we all know how that ended.

  132. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    I think you will see at least a 30-40%% turnover on the roster.

    Guys I believe are gone: Giambi, Betemit, Melky, Ponson, Pavano, Rasner, and Abreu.

    Pitching: I know folks think I’m nuts but, I think the Yankees either sign CC AND Burnett or Burnett and Teixiera (that is, if the Angels don’t re-sign him). I think two free agents are coming here.

    Pettitte, Moose and Abreu? Their futures are directly tied to money and contract years.

    If Andy and Moose want to go year to year, I think the Yankees bring both back. If they don’t, one or none return.

    Abreu? The Yankees aren’t going to sign him to a 3 year contract. Nor will they give him 2+ an option. They aren’t doing that for a 35 year old OF.

    If Bobby wants 3 years, which his agent is looking for and which he will get on the open market, he is gone.

    There is no way you sign him to a 3 year contract. If he wants to stay, he has to work within financial parameters. If not, the Yankees will be more than happy with the draft picks.

    If he returns, you may see Nady at first base next year if they can’t sign Tex or swing a deal.

    Its interesting in the sense that the Yankees have a myriad of options. Not the least of which is the new stadium.

    Wait until players see the new clubhouse. Guys will be talking about it throughout the game. Its going to be the best in the game by a longshot.

    I bet a free agent talks about the new stadium at his press conference. As much money as these guys have, they all love perks. They love amenities and the new stadium is full of player amenities.

    Cano? I thought he was definitely gone prior to his benching. They were so ticked off at him for a variety of things, I didn’t think he would see next year in pinstripes.

    I now think he will. I think his benching is their way of saying, “you are coming back with conditions”. Obviously, if they get overwhelmed by a deal, its a different story. However, that’s unlikely and I think he will be back.

    I also think they will acquire a bench guy, like a Ryan Freel for example, to have in case Cano has another walkabout season. This year, they had nobody to replace him with, which is why went unpunishment WAY too long into the season for his multiple transgressions.

    He missed more signs than the next two guys COMBINED did on the team this season. That drove them nuts as much as his seemingly indifferent style of play.

    Hopefully, Robbie gets it. It has to bug the hell out of him that Dustin Pedroia is now the gold standard for second basemen in the AL. It should be Robbie and he knows it.

    If that spurs him on to take it to the next level, this bad season will be the best thing to happen to his career.

  133. pat September 24th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    If the November Staium sendoff is going to be in the format of a variety show with multiple speakers and performances, Rookie hazing this year should be saved until then. Dressing up the rookies for 55,000 at the Stadium in NY is more fun than dressing them up for 100 people in a Toronto airport at midnight.

  134. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Matsui is the odd man out in 2009…

    The Yankees were shopping him around last year, he’s got a bad knee, is suddenly injury prone and with the crowded outfield the Yankees have now he’s expendable.

    I know the Giants have been looking at what they could get for Matt Cain. Maybe Matsui + prospects to SF for Cain is a possibility this offseason.

  135. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    We’re not going to see any big shakeups in the pen going into next season. There will be no Farnsworth-type signing. They don’t need one. They will pick up Marte’s option and do nothing else, except maybe promote someone new, like Melancon.

    Our options at catcher are extremely limited. That’s why we gave Posada the 4-year deal. We had no choice because the market for catching is worse than the market for pitching. Depending on how things look with Posada, I wouldn’t be surprised if we re-sign Pudge (or offer him arbitration if his declining would net us draft picks) if it looks like the alternative would be Molina/Moeller.

  136. Vince Black (Yanks fan in Chitown) September 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    Abreu is not that bad of an outfielder…yes there are balls he doesn’t get to….but he catches the ones he does get to and he still is pretty tough to run on.
    Add to that his steady offense and reliability i.e. plays everyday……..and I think you have to try and keep him for the right price.

  137. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    I think Abreu stays. The Yankees can’t afford to lose his bat.

  138. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Rebecca, I honestly believe that if I gave you $200 million to work with, you would do a better job than Cashman has done (assuming you viewed things dispassionately and objectively). It’s frankly disgusting that this team will still be saddled with huge contracts for years to come. I’m tired of watching the big name brontosauruses. We need a lot more hungry raptors.

  139. TKinDC September 24th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    “I see no possibility of trading for a good young CF, RF or 1B with the talent we currently have.”

    Did you see the possibility of Karstens, Ohly, Tabata and someone whose name I forget bringing us Marte AND Nady?

    I sure didn’t.

    Deals are possible and happen for economic as well as competitive reasons. That is why there is going to be so much interest in watching the hot stove boil over this off-season :)

  140. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Pudge? Back? God no! He is so far over the hill he can’t see it any longer.

  141. AZ Four September 24th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    You can’t just let 50 HRs/200 RBIs in Giambi/Abreu walk and not have viable replacements, especially since we are already on pace to score 200 less runs than last year.

    The offense needs just as much of a revamping as the pitching does.

  142. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Don’t be surprised if the Yankees exercise Pavano’s option (assuming he is not struck by lightning first). And if they do, I don’t want to hear complaints from anyone who criticized the lack of a “Plan B” for the rotation this season.

    The Yankees will definitely put up big money for Teixeira, Sabathia, and Burnett. Whether they get any of them is another story. They will put up big money, but not stupid money. If the Angels will give Teixeira 10 years, $200 million, the Yankees won’t beat it.

  143. Jose September 24th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Stay far away from Sheets.

    Burnett will be our plan B. If we don’t get him, then I agree with the other poster that we may have to shop guys like Hughes or Cano for pitching.

  144. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    A 35-year old OF who shows no signs of decline and who is a Yankee type player…high OBP, left-handed w/ speed.

    There is not a free-agent like that on the market.

    Also, given a choice between Matsui (also 35, slow with a bad knee) or Abreu, I’d rather have Abreu.

    2+ an option is what the Yankees will want. He’ll want 4 guranteed and the compromise will be 3 guaranteed.

  145. Clint September 24th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    I would bring back Pudge and play him at 1st base.

  146. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    I’ll break it down by position:

    First base. If Abreu re-signs, I think Nady is the first baseman. If Abreu isn’t re-signed (more likely), its either Tex or someone they get in a trade.

    Cano, Jeter and Arod will be back.

    LF: I am not sure Damon will be back next year. He has a limited no trade and his contract isn’t that bad for another team to acquire. I think the Yankees shop him and see what’s out there for him. If nothing floats their boat, he’s back for one more year.

    CF: I don’t see Gardner or Melky starting the year in CF. I think they will go outside the organization to acquire a CF.

    RF: Its either Nady or Abreu. I think it will be Nady.

    C: Posada and Molina.

    Bench: I think they will pick up at least two, possibly three bench pieces. I also think Cody Ransom is going to have a chance to make the team in a utility role. He can play 5 positions and his bat isn’t too bad. He’s a helluva lot better than Betemit.

    The pitching staff is really the area that we will see the turnover. Wang, Joba and Mo are the only 3 guys we know will be back. The rest? All depends how free agency shakes out. I think Mark Melancon will be in the bullpen next year. I also think they will either pickup Marte’s option or have a wink wink deal with him and sign him to a 2 year deal if they don’t pick up his option.

    DH: I think it will be Matsui. I don’t believe they will trade him and his knees pretty much limit him to DH these days.

    Aside from that, its open season.

    In review, you are looking at a new first baseman, CF, possibly LF next year. That’s a third of the everyday lineup.

    Pitching will have one, possibly two new starters and at least one (Melancon) bullpen arm. That’s a lot of turnover for one team.

  147. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    Yeah, let’s give Abreu 3 years. In fact, let’s just attempt to field the oldest team in the history of baseball. At some point you need to commit to a different approach. This one hasn’t worked.

  148. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    I’d be surprised if anyone gives Teixeira the 10 years he wants. He’ll save face by taking lots of money and call it a lifestyle decision. Whether that be west coast or east coast remains to be seen.

    I’m all for CC and Tex, just not at any cost. I’d rather suffer another disappointing year than be saddled with a 7 yr contract for a pitcher and a 10 year contract for a 1B (albeit a switch hitter with a great glove and bat.)

  149. minnesota yankee fan September 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    Yea Mike! If he wants to come back, I say, bring him back for 3 years to try for 300. I like that he didn’t take himself out of the game last night after being hit. That had to hurt, alot. Gutsy.

  150. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    SJ44, makes sense to me. Shopping for a CF scares me though. Look at the big money spent on Gary Matthews, Andruw Jones, and Torii Hunter (only one of whom even remotely deserved it). Too bad we missed the boat on Beltran.

  151. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    ZMan: No way in hell.

    Cashman has had to deal with the Steinnies. We….don’t.

    It’s easy to be an armchair GM when you don’t have your job on the line with every move.

  152. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Deals happen every off-season. Just because you don’t see/hear of anything now doesn’t mean stuff doesn’t happen.

    Believe me, if the Yankees want to find a CF or a first baseman, there will be players available.

    As in all deals, its a matter of price.

  153. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    It’s not about signing the oldest team…it’s about evaluating what the current situation is, then evaluating what the alternative are and then making a decision based on what is better.

    What is the better option in the free agent market?

  154. t-rock September 24th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    Bruney has a 1.87 ERA and has been lights out. He’s throwing strikes and is dominant.

  155. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    “It’s easy to be an armchair GM when you don’t have your job on the line with every move.”

    Rebecca — I’d argue that their jobs are not on the line with every move. If this were the case, there’s no way Cashman would have lasted this long.

  156. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Hell no to picking up Pavano’s option. Who cares if he can pitch, it’s best to move on. And the guys can forgive, but they won’t forget. They were brutal to him after the car accident.

  157. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    SJ’s right. Other teams have needs, too. Think other teams don’t need relievers? Young pitching? 5th outfielders?

  158. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    I think the Yanks will make a very high one-year offer to Abreu. Abreu is said to be looking for a multi-year deal, but a one-year deal, if significantly higher than the per year average on a multi-year contract, could prove attractive to him.

    The Yanks will make the offer because they know Nady and some complimentary platoon player won’t make up for the loss of Abreu’s offense. Given how our offense performed this year, they know they can’t afford to lose more production.

    The Yanks will also make a huge offer to Tex. My guess is Tex is a high-bidder kind of guy, like most people. The Yanks know they must replace Giambi’s production, and Tex is the only answer. A Nady platoon isn’t the answer there either.

    If I’m right on Abreu and Tex, that means the Yanks will only sign one top FA starting pitcher. Their $80 million will only go so far, and they will need to spend some money to add a role-playing CF to bridge the gap to Austin Jackson.

  159. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Jonathan — it’s not just about filling holes. At some point, if a strategy isn’t working, you need to modify it. This team risks being stuck with the Golden Girls in Pinstripes. And these ladies cost a lot more than Bea Arthur and Rue McClanahan.

  160. MUDDYWATERS September 24th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Jonathon, the real point is that you don’t just look at the FA market to fill all the needs. You put together trades, sign FA, promote from within, in order to get the pieces you need.

    For trades you target players for your needs and see what that club wants/ needs for themselves.

    In the off season its much easier to make deals to fill needs. This will be – or at least – should be a big off season for the Yankees.

  161. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Running the Yankees today is a helluva lot different than running the Yankees from 2001-2005. Like night and day.

    One of the reasons they are in the position they are in is because of the emotional, out of control way George went about the business from 2001-2005.

    Lots of missed draft choices. Lots of missed chances to sign the right players (Vlad instead of Sheffield, Beltran instead of Randy Johnson, the infamous Tony Womack acquisition, etc).

    Its an old team for a reason. Too many long term contracts to older players.

    That’s why Abreu has virtually no shot at returning if he is stuck on 3 years. They aren’t going down that road again.

    Its about using money intelligently and having roster flexibility. Without it, you are locked into guys and, if they are the wrong guys, you are sunk.

    If Cashman is back, I would shocked if they went down that road again.

  162. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    “Hughes has already dominated at AAA. It’s moronic to think more time there will help him”

    how many times did i hear this argument in the spring?

    so because bucholtz pitched a no hitter he has nothing to learn at triple a.
    lester had nothing to learn by a lengthy return to triple a?

    hughes needs to start a triple a and through merit rise through the organization.

  163. Dave D September 24th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    A lot will depend on Sabathia, that will dictate what happens with everything else. That will set the dominoes into motion.

  164. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    SJ: What about signing Bobby as a DH? I can see them doing that.

  165. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    SJ,

    What do you think about the Cashman quote about being open to bringing back Jason.

    Please tell me that’s just posturing. No one in their right mind would bring him back.

  166. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    i think this offseason bobby should be towards the end of the lets see what we can get list

    how come no ones talking about trading nady? hes good but nothing really that special, im not saying hes top priority because the yanks have bigger fish to fry

    but why not shop him around? see who’ll bite? see what we can get back?

    th yanks can do so many things this offseason, hopefully their choices won’t come back to bite them in the butt like this year

  167. pat September 24th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    “There is not a free-agent like that on the market.”

    Maybe not but there is one already on the team. Nady’s offensive numbers this year were just as good as Abreu’s. He’s 5 years younger, doesn’t require a 3 year contract and his defense is on par with Bobby’s.

    “You can’t just let 50 HRs/200 RBIs in Giambi/Abreu walk and not have viable replacements, especially since we are already on pace to score 200 less runs than last year.”

    I would assume that Jorge and Matsui would contribute more in 2009 than they did this year and make up a chunk of those lost numbers.

  168. wolf man (2008 is over) September 24th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    randy, i agree 100%

    i would hope cashman is smarter than the arm chair GMs on this board who want to guarentee hughes a rotation spot next year

  169. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    randy 1 -

    Hughes has done everything he could do at at AAA. That’s why its moronic. If the Yanks think he still needs more “seasoning” then they should trade him, because there will be other teams that think he is ready now.

  170. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    IMO, if they sign Tex, they aren’t signing Abreu. They will put Nady in RF, save about 8-9 million dollars, and slot Tex in the third hole ahead of Arod.

    This would be the projected lineup:

    1. Damon LF
    2. Jeter SS
    3. Tex 1B
    4. Arod 3B
    5. Matsui DH
    6. Nady RF
    7. Posada C
    8. Cano 2B
    9. Whomever ends up in CF.

    Basically, they would take Giambi’s (21 million) and Abreu’s (14 million) money and slot it to Nady (avoiding arbitration) and Tex, with a healthy chunk left over.

  171. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    If anything, Cashman has said Hughes won’t be guaranteed anything.

    And you’ve got Hughes, IPK, Aceves, and possibly Coke as the lefty competing for one spot. Aceves would probably win the job based on the intangibles and IP (don’t know if there’s an issue, but if he’s been pitching professionally for this long it’s probably not.)

  172. E-Rod September 24th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Jorge will hit closer to his .277 career average instead of the .338 player he was in his contract year. And remember, he is 39 years old coming off shoulder surgery, so I’d imagine that would impact his offense as well.

    Matsui hasn’t been healthy in 3 years. Very hard to rely upon him.

    There needs to be tangible replacements for Abreu/Giambi. It can’t be Brett Gardner and Miranda. If not Texieria, they need to go the trade route and find some young position players.

  173. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Although the analogy to classic 80s sitcoms is hysterical…Abreu is signable (regardless of his age) because of his production and because he hasn’t shown signs of decline.

    He is the best free-agent outfield option on the market and he should be back.

    The Yankees need to sign a big bat to replace the production of Giambi at 1B. Teixeira would is the best option. I have to admit having a switch hitting, high OBP, 30 HR guy hitting behind A. Rod makes my mouth water. I would love to see the Yankees get him.

    After that, I think the position players look like this next year

    C – Posada (hopefully the shoulder will be better)
    1B – Teixeira
    2B – Cano
    3B – A. Rod
    SS – Jeter
    LF – Damon/Nady
    CF – Gardner
    RF – Abreu
    DH – Damon/Nady

    I just think the Yankee need to unload Matsui while he still has value…players with knee problems don’t usually get better with age.

  174. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    No, Hughes hasn’t done everything he can do in AAA.

    Has he ever pitched 150-160 AAA innings? Has he ever gone a full season taking every turn in the rotation against better hitters than are present in A Ball?

    Has he mastered the ability to throw 3 pitches for strikes in any count? Nope.

    Can he spot in fastball up/down, in/out in any count? Nope. In fact, Hughes himself says his fastball command has to be much better.

    Don’t look at stats. Look at how he is developing and he needs more work.

    The Yankees don’t need 4-5 inning starting pitchers. That’s their problem.

    He shouldn’t be back here until he is ready to throw more consistent innings. He’s not there yet.

    Mel,

    Its all posturing. I don’t see where Giambi fits in the Yankees plans next year. That ship has sailed.

    Rebecca,

    Matsui will be the DH. Depending on Jorge’s shoulder, he may also see DH time. I don’t see them making an 8 figure, multi-year investment to Bobby to DH.

    I think a lot of dominoes have to fall the wrong way for them to bring Bobby back because I don’t see Bobby taking less money to stay in NY. This go’round is his last chance to make big money.

  175. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    SJ44-

    I guess it depends on where the Yanks want their payroll to end up. I personally don’t think your proposed lineup will give them enough firepower to beat out the Rays and the Sox, who will be very good next year. Both have a younger team and super farm prospects.

    The Yanks could spend the $$ on 2 starting FA pitchers, but my thought there is that the top three, Sabathia, Sheets and Burnett, each have questions attached to them. Sabathia has been worked hard, and Sheets and Burnett have durability issues. Signing any of them is a gamble, and signing two of them would be a big gamble, especially since that will cost $40 million plus per year.

    If they could sign Abreu to a big one-year deal, then in 2010 the OF decks will be clear (no Damon, Matsui, Abreu or Nady) and they will have a lot of flexibility.

  176. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    everyone is talking about getting younger blah blah blah
    yet they put matsui on their lineup list

    HELLO! matsui is no spring chicken, and his body is starting to react to all those 1000+ consecutive games he played

    i wouldnt mind having bobby as a dh/ extra outfielder and dropping matsui

  177. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    wave your hat-

    i’d be careful throwing around that word “moronic” . people might start associating it with you.

  178. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    I’m beginning to come around to the Tex thing, too. We have many more pitching options than we do for 1B/offense.

    O/T but Lance Armstrong will be riding in the tour again. He’ll ride for free the first year, participate in the voluntary testing program.

    Contadora had sounded put out the other day, but has changed his tune now that the deal is done.

    Good luck to Team Astana.

  179. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    SJ: I keep forgetting about Matsui.

    I have to say, though, the one thing I don’t see is I don’t see Nady playing first base. I think he’s got more value to the team playing in the field.

  180. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    SJ44, I’ll agree to disagree on Hughes. My guess is no pitcher has ever mastered all those things because he spent another year in the minors. You’re projecting a cure for his problems which doesn’t exist. Hughes could just as easily learn a lot of bad habits there getting lesser hitters out.

  181. saucY September 24th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    good lord. thinking about all this stuff makes my head hurt…

  182. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    the yankees have invested a small fortune in arod until he’s 42.

    who is going to hit in front of him and behind him?

    he really needs someone behind him that other teams fear. manny would work , but that’s not going to happen. there’s really no one on the team that strikes fear in other teams.

    part of his bad year this year was having mediocre hitters behind him.

  183. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    randy-

    I didn’t say you were moronic, I said the argument was.

  184. BB September 24th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    The team just has one goal is to get 2009 championship.
    We need sharp rotation,bullpen and line up.Fouthermore,we need the player who glory in pinstriped and work hard.
    The team also need to do its best to win in every game,not wait until the season will be end and then chase after playoff spot.It’s too late.
    Tell the truth,the GM and coach group of Red sox is more smart,excellent and boldness than Yankee.
    Sometimes Giradi’s useless kindness hurt the team.

    “Meanwhile, Matt Garza started for the Rays on three days’ rest, and had it not been for Red Sox slugger David Ortiz, he might have lasted long enough to qualify for the win. But by the time Ortiz came to the plate in the fifth with two on and two out, he already had a two-run homer and a solo blast, so Maddon went to the bullpen and Grant Balfour.” “It was a great move [bringing in Balfour],” Garza said. “At the point it happened, I didn’t like [the move]. As a player, though, you know what’s best for the team.”

    Maddon is great and he really know what’s best for Rays.

  185. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    Wave your hat,

    I think the organization is trying to undo the damage done by rushing Hughes.

    He’s a tremendous kid with good stuff. To me his intangibles only enhance his stock. You can’t teach that kind of stuff.

    That’s why they didn’t trade him and that’s why they’re trying to rectify it.

    The problem is everyone is impatient. The media, the fans, and Phil himself.

    I think it’ll be worth the wait.

  186. G. Love September 24th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    I think the treating the early part of the season types like it doesn’t count have to go this off season.

    That includes Abreu.

    At least Nady hasn’t been here in April to show us he comes crawling out of the gates.

    I also agree with SJ that we will see a lot of new faces next season.

    If Cashman makes the mistake of trusting the team that just had a collective failure of a season to rebound, he will never get another GM job in baseball and will be fired next season along with Girardi.

    They need new players and new winning attitudes.

    If Cashman stays here, he has to stay here to change the culture of the team and keep trying to build assets on the farm that can help the big club and be trade chips.

    Abreu is one of the notorious late starters on this team. He’s also old and expensive. Get him out and take picks for him. We’re gonna lose picks signing the free agent starters so we need to get them back.

    Giambi, Abreu, Damon HAVE to go. They are part of the collective failure that has gone on here. These are veterans who notoriously openly speak about pacing themselves in the press and how the wild card is just as good a way to get in as any.

    We can’t have that influence/attitude here to be winners. We need the guys who want to win the division from day one.

    I can’t stand Cano, but you cannot trade him now. His value is 1/2 of what it should be and I think the players we all think they can get for him now are pipe dreams.

    But they better find a reserve player who can take his job from him for the bench and they better find Melky another team next season. Those two cannot be on the team together anymore.

    I don’t know who they are going to get and who is going to be available, but it’s going to be an active off season.

    I hope we can come up with some players who don’t care if they look cool and just want to win.

    While I loved Sunday night, it still irked me a great deal seeing guys smiling and laughing on the field for pictures after the game. Especially some of the guys who were awful this season.

    I didn’t feel like they earned any reason to celebrate like that but the season is now over and it’s time to fix this mess and get the right kind of players again.

    Abreu, for all of you who like his stats, is not the right kind of player. You can feel it and sense it.

    Changes need to be made. This group is not taking the next step. They’ve proven that enough.

  187. pat September 24th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    “good lord. thinking about all this stuff makes my head hurt…”

    Add in the Hank factor and welcome to Brian Cashman’s world!

  188. jason September 24th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    Getting Tex would open other options as well:
    i.e. trading Matsui and Damon as an example. Keeping Gardner in CF until Jackson is ready in a year or so.
    I don’t mind the Yankees spending money. Heck I want the Yankees to spend money. I just don’t want them to remortgage the farm. You need balance. Let some of their top tier pitching develop correctly. Let Jackson and the Charelston players develop. Keep signing as many of the IFA as you can (until that avenue gets shut off by a draft or something).
    Someone was talking about losing the picks if they sign free agents. That is not a death nell (knell??) espectially since they will have one of the bottom ten picks in the first round. Look at the talent they have amassed with 2nd round and below picks recently. Look at the talent they have amassed from the IFA market.
    I am all for spending money, but they need to be creative, flexible, and not sacrifice the farm (trades and moves given an overall strategy are highly appropriate). Just don’t sell everyone to win now.
    Win now and later.

  189. JB (Blue Jays Fan) September 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    I will say great things about Yankee players (or any other team for that matter) but Mike Mussina is a first class scumbag.

    This is a guy who openly complained about a 10 minute MEMORIAL SERVICE (that included his widow) before a game for a man who had a tremendous impact for baseball in Canada, Mr. Tom Cheek. I have never heard of something more insensitive.

    When he was in Baltimore, he tried to embarrass Cito Gaston into playing him into the All-Star game when Cito told him he would be used only in extra innings.

    Cito said this today in the Toronto papers about Mussina:

    “Fifteen years later, Toronto’s manager has clearly not forgiven or forgotten.

    Last night, Gaston was asked jokingly if Snider had earned another start tomorrow in return for plunking the manager’s nemesis.

    “Tomorrow and the next day and the next day,” Gaston said wickedly.”

    Everyone in Toronto hopes that leaves a good mark.

  190. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    BB,

    How many years has Madden had to develop that young team? Despite appearances, it didn’t happen overnight.

    I think if you give Girardi good, young players to work with that’d be right in his wheelhouse.

  191. Cor Shep September 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    why is everyone talking about re-signing abreu to a 1 or 3 year deal. I’m almost positive he has a 1 year 16 mil team option on his contract left.. why would they need to resign him..

  192. 86w183 September 24th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    One thing the Yankees will also explore is guys who may have contracts other teams want to move. the Marlins come to mind with about half the team eligible for arbitration. Cody Ross for CF? there are many options are out there… it’s going to be fascinating.

  193. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    JB,

    That story about Gaston and Snider is kind of funny and sad at the same time.

  194. black yankee September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Great post G love, good stuff. I`m afraid Cash is going to bring in some NL players without realizing the exchange rate. Nady, who I love was hitting 330 with Pitts, with the yanks hes a 270 at best
    Same with pitchers

  195. Jonathon September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Ryan Howard is another ‘notorious’ late starter…are the Phillies trying to ship him out this off-season

    Yes consistency is great, but again…on a team that was so ‘unclutch’ this year…Abreu was one of the best hitters with RISP and especially good with RISP and 2 outs.

  196. PAT M September 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Randy I, Warning for throwing in and up at The Wave your hat dude……Let’s see how Hughes does in Fenway…He very well will be counted as an option for next season still….

  197. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    First off Cashman has to decide if he wants to come back.

    Then they can worry about what to do. If Cashman doesn’t come back…oh boy. That will make the next few months interesting for sure.

  198. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Look at it another way. If they could ever sign Tex, they can take a shot at Gardner in CF next year and have a more flexible, younger AND cheaper lineup than the one they trotted out this year.

    Damon, Jeter, Tex, Arod, Matsui, Nady, Posada, Cano, and Gardner. That’s the best lineup in the AL.

    If you take out Abreu and Giambi’s contracts (combined 35 million) and replace them with Tex (18-20, which is what I think he will get) and Nady (7), they save 8-10 million and achieve their goal of younger, more flexible and improve their defense.

    They also will have payroll flexibility because Damon, Matsui and Nady’s deals comes off the books after 2009.

    If they could convince Tex to come East, it solves their lineup issues.

    The pitching? They would have a lot of ways to go, even if they didn’t get CC.

    For example, let’s say they sign Tex, miss on CC, and sign Burnett.

    You have Wang, Pettitte and Moose (both guys back on one year deals), Burnett, and Joba in the rotation. Helluva lot better than they have now.

    Plus, the only guy in the rotation with a multi-year deal is Burnett. Again, more flexibility.

    The cool thing is, they have a lot of interesting ways to go this off-season. They really aren’t locked into any one strategy.

  199. t-rock September 24th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    I want Tex next year— a gold glover, switch hitter, and a great clubhouse guy.

  200. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    SJ: You bring Andy back? Even though he had a horrible (by his standards) year?

  201. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    Cor Shep-

    The $16 million option you are recalling for Abreu was for 2008. He’s a true free agent now.

    SJ, I’m OK with your lineup, I agree it would be good. I’m not sure it would be the best in the AL, after this year.

    But by my calculations, that would put their payroll under this year’s payroll. Is that so necessary? I think Abreu would be better than Nady, if we could get him for one year only. Why not throw $15-20 million at him to have him one more year?

  202. jason September 24th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    SJ – I agree completely with your assessment. Only problem, going into this year people said: Damon, Jeter, Abreu, Arod, Matsui, Posada, Giambi, Cano, Melky was the best lineup in the league. And they scored 200 fewer runs then last year.
    What about Tex – if he locks up first base for the foreseeable future. What do you do with Posada if he can’t catch for some of his contract? What do you do with Montero who if he moves off catcher will be at 1b? What do you do with Miranda, Suttle, Laird who all will probably be at 1b? Obviously you have flexibility with trades and everything else that comes along, but is Tex worth all of the ramifications above.
    This offseason is fascinating. I said in my post this is probably my most anticipated offseason in years as it will probably be a harbinger for the direction of the Yankees for the next decade.

  203. Clare September 24th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    JB,

    I used to have a good opinion of Cito, but clearly he’s pathetic and classless.

  204. t-rock September 24th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    I’m kind of warming up to Burnett/Teixeria over CC and a 7 yr/$175 million doller deal.

    Not that I don’t want CC, but only if he legitimately wants to come here. If the only way he will come here is if we ‘blow away’ the Dodgers offer, then forget about him. Why would we want somebody like tha on the team who didn’t want to come here unless he got 50% more than another team?

    Tex has already said he loves NY and Burnett has always been rumored to want to come here.

    Tex/Burnett might be a smarter investment, all things being equal.

  205. mel September 24th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    Rebecca,

    You’re too young for memory loss. Moose had a terrible year last year by anyone’s standards.

    Pettitte would be the best #4/#5 pitcher around.

  206. sw September 24th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    Blue Jays –> zero years in the playoffs since Cito refused to pitch Mussina in the ’93 ASG.

  207. JB (Blue Jays Fan) September 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Actually they won the World Series that year.

  208. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Can I get a Moose Bar? September 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    mel: ahaha you have no idea what grad school does to a mind O_O;;

    Anyway Moose learned how to pitch like Moyer. If Andy can do it, all the more to him, but I still thinkk it’s a risky proposition.

  209. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    what we need is an organization that has an eye for undervalued players and not just the big guys

    we need some kind of a Scott Brosius signing that makes you go, HUH?

    but in the end all the dots connect and you realize it was a great signing

  210. Russell NY September 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    “Tex/Burnett might be a smarter investment, all things being equal.”

    Definitely, that is a no-brainer. We need a starting 1B and SP and that will make our team solid. Cant do both with CC.

  211. hank hal September 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    Casey Blake = Scott Brosius

  212. Russell NY September 24th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    I think Abreu will come back next year. All I’m wondering about is how the Yanks will use Gardner? Damon is a better hitter but I like Gardner.

  213. pat September 24th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    JB

    Cito needs to get over something that happened 15 years ago. Unless I’m misremembering, there was no gain from winning an all-star game except bragging rights in 1993. They were exhibitions and only about entertainment for the home crowd. Pitching a hometown pitcher would achieve that goal.

    As to joking about a player possibly sustaining an injury over something so petty and stupid says more to me about Gaston than Mussina.

  214. SJ44 September 24th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    You don’t set aside major league position jobs for guys in A ball.

    What if Montero stalls in AA, a la Tabata? Do you pass on Tex because of Montero? Of course not.

    The Yankees have ignored first base defense for the last 7 years. This year alone, it cost them 10 games this year. I charted them.

    Ten losses because of misplays at first base.

    If you could sign Tex, you sign him. Its not going to be easy but, if you can do it, you do it.

    Posada? He will catch and DH.

    Montero? Talk to me in 2011 about him. Right now, he’s not even on the radar for NY.

    Rebecca,

    If Andy is healthy, I bring him back if he’s willing to sign a 1 year, 10 million dollar deal.

    In the lineup I proposed above, one reason why I would bring back both Andy and Moose, along with signing Burnett and Tex is, the Yankees would then be able to keep their entire inventory of young pitchers.

    This way, if a guy goes down, we aren’t reduced to the Ponson’s, Pavano’s, and Rasner’s of the world to grind out 20+ starts.

    In a perfect world, the Yankees should try and have their cake and eat it too. Keep the young pitching inventory and use your money intelligently.

    In the lineup I proposed, they would actually have less payroll in 2009 than this year AND have a younger, more flexible team. They would also be able to keep their young pitching inventory in place.

    If I was the GM, that would be my goal in the off-season.

  215. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    pat m-

    yeah, but i have pretty good control so it wasn’t that dangerous to go up and in there.

    on the other hand, i’m definitely a little edgy so i should watch myself.

    i’m not appealing the warning.

  216. pat September 24th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “we need some kind of a Scott Brosius signing that makes you go, HUH?”

    Give me a heads up on that signing so I’ll know to stay away from here that week. :smile:

  217. 86w183 September 24th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    If Posada’s shoulder won’t let him catch how the hell is he going to play 1B? Why do people keep suggesting it?

    IF Laird proves to be a stud in three years he can DH, or Tex can if Laird is an even better glove. You don’t sign FA if it blocks a top Triple-A prospect (see Brosius/Lowell), but any lower than that is not a factor in my mind.

    I’m still not completely sold on AJ or Perez long term. No concerns about Sabathia who is showing his character by pitching on short rest to help his team try to make the playoffs even though it is arguably against his best interests long term. Sheets scares me… Lowe for one year wouldn’t be a crime.

  218. PAT M September 24th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    I can detect the edge…

  219. you gotta have faith (well, theres always next year...) September 24th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    pat

    lol dont worry i will

    i wonder if this site exsisted then what would it have been like when they signed him, haha

  220. Victor the Predictor September 24th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    The 1st of the offseason moves will be the Cashman and front office team in place.
    Once solidified, 40-man roster changes will be formulated. No free agent moves can be made until the filing period begins which is 15 days after the World Series ends.
    Cashman and team will do no foot dragging. They’ll strike early and often with aggressive signings and working toward the winter meetings in Vegas, December 8-11 when aggressive trading is done to fit out the rest of the roster.

  221. ZMAN7777 September 24th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    G Love — I concur with all of your points in the lengthy post above (however, I’ve seen enough of Cashman already).

  222. pat September 24th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    you gotta have faith

    If this site was around when Mickey Mantle played, people would have complained that he partied too much, wasn’t clutch all the time and hurt the team trying to play through injuries. Isn’t technology grand :smile:

  223. Jeremy September 24th, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    Pettitte is probably the only veteran pitcher who would agree to a one-year deal with the Yankees and could likely give us a league-average season. That’s why the team will try to bring him back.

  224. Betsy September 24th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09.....ref=slogin

    I love this cutter for Phil……..and of course, I love his attitude. As disappointed as I am for the team that he wasn’t able to contribute, I’m equally as disappointed for Phil. He’s a hard worker and a very good kid – and as we saw in the ALDS against the Indians, he’s got the right stuff to succeed big time in NY, which not everyone has.

    I agree with you completely, Mel. The Yankees love Phil and that’s why they are sending him to the AFL and that’s why they aren’t guaranteeing him anything. They know he will earn his pinstripes one day, but he’s got things to work on that he should have been doing last year in AAA. He was a victim of the horrendous injuries to the Yankees’ starting rotation last year. SJ, I don’t know if Phil needs the whole year in AAA, but you’re right – he’s not a finished product, and how could he be? Phil dominated every single level he was ever at – he never even faced a bases loaded situation in the minors. LOL that’s unbelievable. He’s 22 – he’s 22 – he’s 22. I have to keep repeating that for people want think he’s a has-been/never was. Seriously, if this is how Yankee fans treat their young guys, booing them off the field and trashing them for being imperfect…..it’s scary.

  225. Wave Your Hat September 24th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    “pat m-

    yeah, but i have pretty good control so it wasn’t that dangerous to go up and in there.

    on the other hand, i’m definitely a little edgy so i should watch myself.

    i’m not appealing the warning.”

    The pitch didn’t have enough hop on it to move me off the plate.

  226. Betsy September 24th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    SJ44, I’d also like to ask you this: what are you looking for out of Phil tonight? Do you want to see him use his curve more? His change? Obviously FB command is #1…….

  227. Betsy September 24th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    I wasn’t for signing both Moose and Andy a month or so ago, only Moose (and only for 1 year). I think now maybe I would consider bringing Andy back for 1 year, but his shoulder scares me………and so does his 2nd half. It was brutal. Tex? I’m not giving him 10 years. I don’t have a set # of years I’d be willing to offer, but it’s not 10 – that’s ridiculous. I have a feeling he’s not going to want to come to NY anyway.

  228. randy l September 24th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    pat m-

    i’m surrounded by red sox fans here on cape cod so when you factor that i’m keeping my cool fairly well well this yankee collapse.

    ironically, it’s some yankee fans that make me count to ten.

    i think sj has the best take on the whole thing. he says yes to cashman , but with the caveat that he needs help. he understands development because he’s been around it with his minor league involvement. and he understands that the free agent market and trades are going to have to be part of the picture.

    there’s what i think should happen , and what i think will happen.
    i’m hoping for an asymmetrical balance between the steinbrenners, cashman, the coaches and players that somehow brings out the best in everyone because there is no way that this mix is going to be a classic model of an organization.

    i’m hoping for a lot of fighting and passion, but in the end a dysfunctional balance and edge that brings # 27.

  229. PAT M September 24th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    Enjoy the Cape Randy I….Get well rested for it’s going to be a long winter…However the Hot Stove Season should be quite eventful…..I agree with you & SJ….I’d love to see Bucky Sholwater brought back at some significant capacity…He’s an astute basbeball guy…..It’s going to be weird with no Yanks…At least there’ll be no FOX idiots to listen to….

  230. On the road September 24th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

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