Playing down to the competition
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- September
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If the Yankees had simply taken care of business against poor teams, they’d still be playing for something. Here is their record against some of the worst teams on their schedule:
Baltimore: 11-7
Royals: 5-5
Tigers: 2-4
Rangers 3-4
Reds 1-2
Pirates 1-2
Indians 3-4
Add it up and it’s 26-29 (.473). The Yankees have played .594 ball (60-41) against everybody else.
Had the Yankees won six more of those games against bad teams (going 32-23), they would have 92 wins today and be fighting for a spot.
A lot of those games were early in the season and there were some weird losses among those 29. Joe Girardi tried to outsmart the weather one night in Kansas City. Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Kei Igawa were 0-5 against those teams early on. The bullpen cost them two early games against the Orioles. Darrell Rasner lost 2-1 to the Royals one night. Mo blew one of the games.
For whatever the reason(s), the Yankees didn’t always show up against the bad teams and now they’re going home early.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Just goes to show…all the games count…doesn’t matter if it’s April or September.
Drives me nuts when people say it’s only April…as if those games don’t matter…
That having been said…the Yankees are still a winning team this year…ask the fans of any of the teams on that list if they’d swap seasons with the 08 Yankees…my guess would be that they would…
Without a doubt
Every loss counts, we lost some terrible games early on to bad teams where te offense just took the night off. Remember those Royals games where we lost both giving up 2 runs? Or the Reds game to Darrell Thompson?
hey, if the FRANCHISE had managed to get six wins, six more than his current total, or if he had pulled it together with mad magazine ian kennedy and each of them had gotten 3 apiece, then we might still be in it too!
but no, we went into the regular season with 2 rookies in the rotation. a blown save by mo, bad weather, you can play around that. but the fact that 40% of the original rotation didn’t manage to get ONE SINGLE WIN all year, to date, speaks a lot to our current situation.
and that’s on cashman. it was his decision, his team, and these are the results.
What a weird feeling to be watching meaningless baseball for the last five games of the season. At least there was still a glimmer of hope when we put the Stadium to bed. After an inconsistent year all around, the baseball gods gave us that much to be thankful for.
And that’s how you don’t make the playoffs.
time to rectify it for next year.
shop hughes and kennedy for a young bat to shake up the offense. let abreu and giambi walk.
Hughes and Kennedy absolutely killed us in April. They were inept, they didn’t even give us a chance. Even Livan Hernandez would have managed to win 3-4 of the combined 9 games they lost.
the jays/yanks game 3 saturdays ago, up 6 to 2, cano with a lazy flip on a easy DP makes an error and the rest is history.
they lost 5 games like that this year.
this team was not tough enough to be a championship team…
yeah dan sounds like a shrewd move.. hughes is getting old he is 22 how about including melancon in that trade also…
Fool///
The fact that the Yankees play so few games against long-time rivals like the Tigers and Indians is ridiculous. These American League associations go back over a hundred years, and should be emphasized more than they are.
Interleague play is outrageously popular(apparently), so cutting that back will never happen. 18 – 19 games against the teams in your own division should be re-thought, in my opinion.
I can’t believe it. The longest winter we’ll go through in a long time, starts today.
It’s a pretty meaningless anlysis. There are probably games we should have lost that we won and you can do the exact same analysis for the Red Sox and the Rays.
brain surgeons look at the pitching ERA and runs scored this year compared to last…
THey scored 150 + runs less then last year, the pitching is better this year but continue on your delusion that it was the pitching..
get a brain…
CMW.
If Wanger had not made a bad step and injured his foot the entire year would have played out differently.
Of course the offense was atrocious in the clutch, but losing our best starter sealed the season’s fate.
John we’ve watched plenty of meaningless games over the years at this time of the season when they’ve clinched playoff spots early. In 1998 from June on was pretty meaningless.
We’ve been dead for weeks. That 3-7 road trip in early August killed us and losing 2/3 to Boston just confirmed it. We have been just going through the motions for almost a month. Today just made, what we already knew was coming, official. It’s not like this came as a surprise.
And Isin’t it sad that the only young players to get excited about now are all in the bullpen?
one issue dominates all this season – not hitting with RISP. You can talk about the injuries and the pitching all day, but really, the lackluster and clutch-less offense was the key.
Repost from last thread:
Hey guys, I have a question about the draft / signing free agents. In Olney’s article he said that if the Yankees sign a bunch of free agents, they will lose their first and second round draft picks. I thought that no matter how many type A free agents you signed, you still only lose one draft pick? How could they lose both their first round and second round picks? Would that only happen if they signed one or more type A free agents AND one or more type B free agents?
How is any baseball meaningless? You watch baseball to enjoy the game. When we win we win… but no game is meaningless, that is just dumb.
I don’t know why, but I have a sinking feeling in my stomach that Hank will let Cashman walk and bring in Steve Phillips. I can picture Hank watching Baseball tonight, seeing Lucif…er…Phillips, and saying aloud, “Hmmm…’Our General Manager’….that has a great ring to it!”
Oh, I need some Kaopectate…
The saddest thing of all is I don’t even remember winning 3 whole games against the Rangers. But I remember losing a bunch…..
the anatomy of a non-playoff team. what are ya gonna do? Although I do agree that if only Wang hadn’t got hurt we probably could have squeaked into the postseason. I mean think about it, he is worth at least 6-7 more wins than we got from his replacements (mainly Ponson). But either way we wouldnt have been championship caliber. Thats where the failure of the offense comes in but we have been over and over this on here so I’ll spare us all the dead horse!
The sad part is that the only people who will be deeply affected by this non-postseason are the ones who were already trying their hardest to begin with (Jeter, MO, Andy, Mussina etc.). So it’s not like they will come in ‘hungrier’.
The other guys will either be off the roster or too young to understand and are just happy to be at the ML level.
The only way to improve the team is by shaking it up. This core has run its course.
We lost the following games to the Rangers
2-1, Mussina vs. Feldman
3-2, Joba vs. Millwood
9-5, Grand slam in bottom 9th by Marlon Byrd
8-6, A Pettitte/Matt Harrison (who?) matchup following that game
Oh and Darrell Rasner didn’t just lose that one 2-1 game either, he lost several with scores just like that. I hate to say it but if a team can’t take a 6 IP 1 ER performance from a guy like Darrell Rasner and make it stand up, they deserve their fate.
peco – I think that this will actually be one of the more exciting winters in a long time. This season, in my opinion, allows the transition plan to happen. 2008 was a pseudo transition year – letting the kids start but not going all out to get rid of the dead weight. Missing the playoffs is the wakeup call and the excuse to make hard and tough changes. I do hope they go all out to retool and to get younger. I know it might be a temporary setback but I would not at all be disappointed if Giambi, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Pettite, Pudge, Betemit are all not back.
The bullpen is excellent and will only get better and more flexible next year with Melancon, and potentially some of Coke, Kontos, Cox, Sanchez, Joba, Aceves (long man), Horne, Marquez, Jackson.
The rotation returns Wang, hopefully signs a stud free agent or two, has some of Hughes, Kennedy, Marquez, Horne, Acevex, Coke, Kontos, Brackman, Pope, Macallister, Sanchez, Garcia, Bleich in the nearer future. And, Heredia, Betances, Banuelos, Vizcaino, Marshall in the more distant future.
The big question for me is the field. Gardner in my mind is at least a 4th outfielder. Nady. Miranda maybe as a platoon. Jackson maybe a year down the road. You have several guys who are 2-3 years away that have the potential to have significant impacts – The dynamic duo of Romine and Montero were both named in the top 10 prospects of the SAL by BA. Suttle and Laird can hit and play the corners.
What do you do in the field – primarily C, 1b, of for the next couple of years?
Do you trade Cano if he can bring back a boatload of talent? Although he is what you want (minus the desire that I guy like Gardner or Pedroia among others brings to the table) young, cost controlled and tons of talent.
What are the thoughts.
SJ – I know I threw PP comments about Brackman out ther a few days ago and you disregarded them as hearsay. But then today in an earlier post you included Brackman’s development as one of the two factors in determining Joba’s fate and the pitching strategy the Yankees will employ. I am not saying Brackman is the savior or will be pitching in the new Stadium next year, but when someone who has actually seen (which I admittedly have not) these guys pitch and gushes about them,it is cause for optimism. Many, Many things work against every pitching prospect. Even Joba who is among the few that had the raw stuff to succeed immediately has health issues. But throwing in the mid to high 90s with potentially one of the best curves in the organization and working very, very hard to get back in shape after syrgery (like Melancon) is very impressive.
….and if it all serves as a learning experience it was worth it.
The team/organization needed a wake up call, and hopefully got it this season.
Sure this team could have made the playoffs, but with the rotation we were running out there, we would have most likely lost in the first round anyways.
No team can make the postseason every year. Missing it one year isn’t the end of the world and most likely will help get this organization back on the right track.
Think about it too, Boston or Anaheim is only going to be playing a few more games than us this season anyways. lol
“Add it up and it’s 26-29 (.473). The Yankees have played .594 ball (60-41) against everybody else.”
Included in that 60-41 is the 15-3 they posted against the A’s, Mariners and Padres.
You could just as easily argue they were 15-3 vs. these three very bad teams and a pedestrian 71-68 vs. everyone else
Any news on Joba’s winter? I hear they’re considering sending him to play winter ball so he can get his innings count up to be a starter next year
@ Jason – Aceves as a long man?
At what point do you look at his starts in the last few weeks and viably consider him an option for next year’s starting rotation? Would it take one more good start, or do you already write off the mere thought of him as a starter in 2009?
“2-1, Mussina vs. Feldman”
Considering Moose’s current situation, this one hurts even more than the rest of those pathetic games. Could have locked up 20.
Remember when the Yankees NEVER lost to the Rangers? When they just took their annual 1 out of 6 and liked it? ahh the good old days….
If the Yankees didn’t let Kennedy and Hughes blow 15 starts they would have been in the playoffs too.
Fred – the Yankees have already stated publicly, and it’s been reported in all of the NY papers, that they want Cashman back. Not to worry.
“this team was not tough enough to be a championship team…”
Stuart I can’t disagree. One of the little nagging things that caused me to feel not totally destroyed when we were eliminated last night. I personally was not up for another “one and out” postseason.
“At what point do you look at his starts in the last few weeks and viably consider him an option for next year’s starting rotation?”
Fred Z:
Sounds like the same question people were asking about Ian Kennedy this time last year based on a similarly small body of work.
September numbers are all meaningless. The only one who may be legit is Coke because he has been doing it for almost a month and against playoff teams/good offenses (Angels, Rays, Chi Sox, Tigers). But even he has to re-prove himself this spring. Remember how sick Ohlendorf looked last year with the mid 90s sinking FB and the slider?
That’s why Cashman can’t be Cashman and let Marte walk in favor of Coke who has no credentials. Small market teams can do that, not the Yankees.
Similarly, what Hughes, Sanchez, Kennedy, Aceves etc. do are meaningless. I doubt Cashman is watching what the guys do here or in the AFL and will formulate his off-season plans based on that. Rather, I think his off-season plans (i.e. CC, Burnett, trades etc.) will dictate what happens to Hughes, Kennedy etc. in 09.
http://thunderbaseball.wordpress.com/
If you’re an Austin Jackson fan, read part V of the Cashman interview. It’s very encouraging.
Also, looks like they’re going to announce the contract renewal with Trenton today.
Derek Jeter, ultimately, said it the best and most succinctly, that this team isn’t in the playoffs because they didn’t play well all year.
There’s really nothing much you can add to that.
I’d like them to “win out” anyway, even though it nets them nothing more than a better final record, and probably 3rd place rather than 4th. And it will mean they’d have beaten the Red Sox 3 straight in Fenway. But I’d settle for 4-2 on the final road trip.
Right now, I’m hoping that Mussina can make his last start. But he must be thinking he’s just fated to not being a 20-game winner. I’d almost rather he not make the start, than make it and not be good. But, that’s me.
I am looking forward to seeing what the team will do in the off season. I’m looking forward to seeing some changes in the way Girardi approaches things next season. I’m looking forward to the new stadium. (I like new, I have to say.)
This team lacked two characteristics of the 1996-2000 teams. First, those teams never gave in. A pitcher cold be giving a flash-in-the-pan performance for six innings or so and you always felt that the team COULD come back, as it often did. My two strongest recollections of this are O’Neill breaking up a perfect game by Brad Radke (who was a very good pitcher) with a rope and then Tino hitting the next pitch out and the Yanks winning 2-0 and the game against Baltimore (I think in ‘98) where it seemed the Yanks were all thumbs until Bernie hit a 3-run HR off Benitez, who then hit Tino, etc., etc.
The other quality those teams had was that, when they had the chance, they put the other team away for keeps. They always came to play, and made it a point to cash in all three cheap wins in a series against a weak opponent. As Pete points out, that was a huge weakness this year.
I think the crucial difference is that the 1996-2000 teams did little things to get a run here and a run there when they got men on base early in an inning. Those runs added up steadily (either building a lead or keeping the Yanks in the game) so that, when a three-run HR came along, it was often the coup de grace. This team seemed to rely on hoping for the big HR as its chief offensive weapon, and when the HRs didn’t happen, not much happened for the team. In some ways, the last game was very typical of the way the team won games all season — take away the HR’s and the offense really didn’t do that much.
We’ll surely see alot of changes in the offseason and let’s all hope we see a team we can enjoy rooting for next year. Thanks for everything, Pete!
If you guys want to see my 2009 predictions/2008 offseason moves, visit my blog. http://garderformvp.mlblogs.com. If the Yanks follow my plan, we will win a world championship next year.
At this point, Aceves is ahead of Hughes/Kennedy on the depth chart and as long as the oter kids keep nibbling and showing below average command, Aceves will beat them out in any open competition. That’s what Girardi likes– confidence and attacking the K-zone. That’s why Giese has stayed around all this time.
Depending on what happens in he off-season, I’d imagine there will be one spot for grabs this ST. Or if they sign 2 FA pitchers or bring back both Mussina and Andy, then there will be one spot vacant, and that will be the guy holding Joba’s spot until he is ready to join the rotation.
Joba, the Oakland guy, and Jim Miller have also started with mean scoreless streaks. That doesn’t tell you much about Coke.
I’d take my time converting him to a starter. When Coke started out in AA, he struggled the first month, but was very good after that.
If we don’t bring back Andy, though, I’d speed up that process. If we don’t land CC, then it enters no-brainer territory of at least letting him compete for a spot.
I think the Yanks should get Kyle Lohse in the offseason. He would make a great starter cuz he is young and talented. I don’t like Sabathia that much and he will most likely stay in the NL anyway.
@ Fredo – that’s a good comparison, but I still don’t believe it was that much of a stretch to expect more from IPK and Hughes this season. Sometimes you win by banking on a prospect, and sometimes you have what the Yanks had happen this season.
@LLIME – Phil Coke pitched well against good teams, but couldn’t you say the same thing about Aceves? He had solid starts against Tampa (5 IP, 1 ER, 5H, 2 BB), Anaheim (7/1/5/0), Chicago (6/2/5/1) and Baltimore (6/0/5/3)?
Ashmore is one of the best in the business, in either the majors or minors.
I really hope they promote some of the Tampa kids there by mid-season next yr, just so we can get some excitement in Trenton. As it shapes up right now, they will have a pretty bad team but with good pitching (McAllister, Garcia, De La Rosa, Nova) with guys like Ortiz and Dunn in the pen but an anemic offense.
stuart
Teams evolve every year so comparing last years numbers to this years numbers tell you nothing.
Comparing where the Yankees stack up this year to the teams that finished ahead of them is more telling to me. The Yankees on average allowed more runs than all teams that finished ahead of them but on average scored more runs than both the Rays and the Angels.
It has always been and always will be about pitching and defense.
If the Yankees didn’t let Kennedy and Hughes blow 15 starts they would have been in the playoffs too.
This is a dumb argument. Boston ran up Buchholz and he stunk it up this year. If he won his games, they would have made that extra few games up.
Yes Hughes and Kennedy stunk. But the problem was RISP. Pitching was better than expected in total, with what they had. No one thought Mussina would win 20. Hell i didnt even think he would make it to the end in the rotation.
The Yanks are not that far off from being a very good team.. the have so many good arms in the pen they need to trade some to get some plug ins for the lineup.
if they get cc then the rotation should be; cc, wang, joba, hughes,and TBD.. I say let moose go. he is 39 and will never come close to duplicating this season, done 3 times or so in baseball history, sequels are never as good as the original.
I excercise Marte’s option $6 mill. and then figure out what pen arms to move.. You need to move 3 or 4 arms out of; robertson, melancon, bruney, coke, marte, abeledanjo, veras, ramirez, and on and on.
I let these guys walk; Irod, abreu, giambi, betemit, rasner, ponson, probably pettitte uness he takes a 1 yr deal for a huge paycut…
I look at Gardner, Melky(don’t laugh) and other options for CF.. If Cano for Kemp is an option I think hard about that. Move Nady to Rf, damon in LF, look at Matsui for 1b and DH…The type of offense they have will change but they can score as many runs as this year if not more and there pitching should be even better next year…
Tex I pass, huge $ and length of contract will be BAD…I assume Ajax is a year away so they need to make some smart moves for games and forget the superstar at every position nonsense.. Also there payroll should be at least $40 mill less then this year which will give them in season flexibilty and they will have even more options after next year no Damon, Nady, and Matsui……
Jorge is a stubborn dude if he is not healed completely he needs to get in his thick skull that 1B and DH, are also options for him.. If Jorge can recover that would be huge…..
Fred Z – I have Aceves as potential for both starting rotation and long man. I think this entirely depends on which players the Yankees sign as free agents this offseason and what other moves play out. If you go CC, Wang, Burnett, Mussina, Joba – Aceves does not start in the rotation. If they strikeout on CC, Burnett et al then Aceves has the chance to make the rotation.
Realistically, I see him in the Giese/Rasner role for 2009. Now I think he has the potential to be better than those two (small sample size noted), but he can be an excellent long man and would almost certainly make several spot starts. He is a bit older and more seasoned than Hughes and Kennedy.
The main idea was that a season of missing the playoffs is just what the Yankees needed to get a kick in the butt to make changes and the excuse to allow them to happen. This could have been done prior to the ‘08 season but did not.
Bullpen next year should start as what it is at the end of this year.
Coke, Bruney, Marte, Joba, Rivera.
I still believe Joba should be the future closer, and not a starter, as long as the Yankees manage to sign one or two FA Pitchers to fill the spots. He would be a sick Closer.
Melanchon, Sanchez, and others leading up to him would be lights out.
Reputation and matchups were more important than numbers and who’s hot.
That’s what killed us.
Jason Giambi batting 5th – There was no reason for this.
Cpt Double play – Not insulting him was more important than winning. Awesome.
Melky Cabrera – .200 avg. ????
Robinson Cano – The late night partying obviously didn’t help.
Mr. Billions – Someone needs to get in the rockstars face and let him know he’s on team full of stars. Stop thinking you need to step up more because you get paid more. Just hit.
The Bench
It sucked. BUT they just wasted spots half the time. There was a period where Shelley Duncan wasn’t used in weeks. Chad Moller, same thing.
And guess what? No matter who they get this offseason, we’re going to go through alot of this same crap next season. Joe is a little stubborn and hasn’t learned a whole this year.
True but the difference is that Aceves doesn’t really have good stuff, just like Kennedy didn’t. So you want to see how they react when there is a book on them and teams are prepared for them. It is easier for Coke because he is a lefty and will be coming out of the pen using 2 pitches, but he too has to re-prove himself. Coke and Aceves both have been impressive and have to compete for a spot.
As I said, Aceves will likely win any open competition over Hughes/Kennedy because of his ability to pitch and attack the zone. I’m just saying you can’t guarantee him a spot or use this performance to change your off-season plans and include him in the rotation based upon September numbers. That is the mistake Cashman made this past off-season with Kennedy. I have no problem giving him a chance to earn a spot though. You can never have enough depth. Aceves could also be valuable as a swing guy like Mendoza who can spot start or relieve.
Pat
you are correct except the Yanks knew about there defensive and pitching flaws and counted on the offense to bludgeon teams and it did not happen. Tampa’s pitching will not replicate this year next yr. even with Price it will not happen.
the Yanks commit very few errors as a team but make very few great plays, again the pitching was better then could be expected and they have guys who will continue to improve the problem is the offense.
they get CC and Wang comes back they have a winning pitching staff.. They need to generate more runs and save more runs, ie get more athletic..
Look at Gardner hitting 202 but he changes things out there……He deserves a long look…
What about getting swept at home by the Mets? Usually they win 2 of those games.
The rain out with the lead in Pittsburgh?
There’s 3 games that would have them playing meaningful games this weekend.
They displayed no urgency for 4 months. Here’s a few more reasons why they’re golfing on Monday.
ARod and Giambi should have 15-20 more RBI’s each as they were pretty bad with RISP for long stretches.
Pretty bad defense all around as Jeter slowed up the middle, Cano lollygagged, Giambi posed, Abreu flat out stunk and Damon was Damon.
The refusal for over the last 2 seasons and at the deadline to sign a reliable back of the rotation starter.
And one last Santana rant. They make that deal and they’re playing for real tonight and the rest of the way.
And…
They wouldn’t be missing anything they gave up(albiet Hughes could still turn out to be great)
They wouldn’t need to go out like desperate dogs looking to sign CC.
I think the big difference between last year’s September rookie pitchers (Hughes, Kennedy) and this year’s (Coke, Aceves) is maturity.
Hughes and Kennedy were 21 years old last year and both were clearly rushed to the majors. Both could have used the end of 2007 and probably all of 2008 in AAA.
Coke and Aceves are in their mid-twenties (Aceves maybe older than that, the guy looks about 36). Coke has been in the Yankees system for 4 years, Aceves pitched in the Mexican league for awhile. Both of these guys are more developed and mature. You could argue that Kennedy and Hughes have better stuff (especially Hughes). But that doesn’t mean they are better pitchers.
I think what you see with Aceves and Coke is what you get. Good stuff, excellent location, aggressive style going after hitters. That isn’t going to change over the winter.
Joba must be a starter he is wasted in the pen especially when the Yanks have plenty of good relief arms…
E man just hates Girardi so he is blinded by his dislike…
Aceves better then Hughes!!!!No way……
i can’t believe guys are penciling in hughes for a rotation spot next year. even cashman and girardi have come out and said he has to earn in spot.
i highly doubt cashman will make the same mistake 2 years in a row. we will go into ST with 4 reliable starters who we know what we will get. the 5th spot will be up for grabs.
I just love how Aceves is all of a sudden the hot new thing amongst Yankee fans after he’s had a few good starts. LOL People are upset that Kennedy was given a spot in the rotation based on 3 good starts last September, but now Aceves is going to be really good because of his last few starts? That seems a bit hypocritical to me – actually, more than a bit. Yankee fans only like young players when they are going well. When the kids struggle, then they are overhyped bums who should be traded immediately for a bag of balls. I can’t wait to see the reaction when Aceves struggles. I also find it funny (and sad) that Phil is talked about like he’s garbage at 22. I really just hope that when he starts getting his act together (and as long as he stays healthy, he will…….) that Yankee fans that trashed him will not then say how good they always knew he could be. That’s probably a wasted hope, though.
Mel, I almost want to cry at that bit about Austin. What a great kid he seems to be – if he turns out to just be a good player instead of an all-star, he’ll still be an asset to any team.
Coke may go back to being a starter and I have heard talk about Sanchez going back to being a starter.
Don’t sleep on Veras and to a lesser extent Ramirez. Both were very, very good at the beginning of the season. I do not have quite the same level of confidence in Ramirez against top hitting teams – he got shellacked by the Angels. But, he still needs to be considered.
Also don’t forget Albaledejo (or however you spell it). He will add some more to the mix as will the guy they picked up for Alberto Gonzalez who was excellent in the AA playoffs. As will Kroenke and Dunn – two lefties.
The Yankees ahve lots and lots of options for the pen for next year and the following.
That is why you take some leeway and maybe try out Coke, Sanchez etc for the beginning of the year as starters and see if they can progress. I would say the same for Joba, but am too afraid of him being whipped around from starter to reliever.
BTW I agree with CB from a previous post, that Joba perhaps is scaling down his fastball a bit this time around to match his velocity as a starter. And, perhaps those added 3-5 MPH from the beginning of the year could have contributed to the tendinitis or whatever he had/has.
Pitching prospects are really tough. Look at the Blue Jays who in successive seasons lost there two best young prospects to serious injury in McGowan and Marcum.
Just a gentle reminder: The Twins passed on the Santana deal, not the Yankees. The Yankees put their best offer on the table, which included Hughes, and the Twins got cute. The Yankees refused to be played any longer and put an end to it. If the Twins were not more interested in raising the bid from Red Sox to Yankees and vice versa, Santana would have been a Yankee.
Newsflash for the Yankees next year, teams aren’t laying down and waiting to get steamrolled anymore. The Yanks need to play tough next year, and get their reputation back.
Gammons singing Boston’s praises again. Title of the article mentions the Yankees, but other than a quote from Epstein indicating the Yankees were a few major injuries away from being a very good team.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb.....id=3592212
Doreen you’re wrong on Santana.
There were many different factors involved. The Twins didn’t suddenly say “no” and that was the end of it.
Pettitte resigned. The payroll was already bloated and Santana was demanding a huge contract. This is where Hal’s influence was felt. The Twins GM wasn’t even sure what he wanted. It was a mess from the start. But to say the Yankees put their best offer on the table isn’t accurate.
Braintrust:
That is part of it. The competition got better and deeper. Not as many walkovers as in seasons past.
I am all for blaming the players who did not hit with RISP. I agree that the pitching was not the problem and while the injuries certainly didn’t help matters, they are not the reason we will not see the Yankees in October.
My only other issue is with Girardi’s crazy lineups during the first 3/4 of the season. His always required, never helpful lefty/righty lineup consistently had players that shouldn’t have been playing while batting in spots where they couldn’t be successful anyway.
All in all, there are a lot of issues to be addressed over the winter and I am confident that the Yankees organization will not let something like this happen again. At this point we can only look forward to a new season in the new Stadium.
I don’t hate Girardi. He was good player, coach, broadcaster, person.. Just a horrible manager.
Betsy,
If you want to see what guys think about Austin, look at some of the posts during the playoffs. Teammates, Trenton manager, opposing manager all had great things to say.
Jason,
Veras and Edwar are the weak links. There will be a trickle-down effect depending on which of CC, AJ, Moose, and Andy are in the rotation. How old is Sanchez? If he’s young enough, maybe they use him as a reliever for another year since he’s just coming off surgery. Brackman IMO needs to prepare to start ASAP since we had to sign him to a ML contract.
Doreen,
According to Heyman, it was Hughes, IPK, & Melky. Our top 2 prospects and our starting CF? Then it went into the realm of ridiculousnessity when they said, “Okay. We’ll just take your 38 game in the last 2 seasons winner off your hands.”
A few random thoughts from reading the previous posts:
People who don’t want to make a run at Tex need to explain where our offense is going to come from next year. Losing Giambi’s production will be huge, even with his RISP issues.
You can’t “address RISP”. Production with RISP is just a counting stat – it doesn’t reflect inherent talent. Good production with RISP one year doesn’t mean anything for the next year. That’s actually a plus for next year, as long as we don’t spend big bucks trying to buy it.
People counting on Brackman for anything any time soon are just dreaming.
One thing I’m pretty sure of – the Rays and the Sox are just going to get better. We have a pretty big hill to climb.
Miggs,
Yes, Andy’s resigning changed the dynamic. Only Bill Smith wasn’t bright enough to figure that one out.
Instead of getting the best deal he could when dealing from a position of weakness, he got way too greedy.
But, hey, Carlos Gomez is a nice little player for them.
“A lot of those games were early in the season”
Including a 1-5 mark at home against the Tigers and Indians when Alex was on the DL. By the time he came off, Yanks were 20-24 and in too big of a hole.
Yes, he had a disappointing season in many key spots, but, as constructed, the team is much worse without him.
Miggs -
I think the major point is that the Santana situation was a mess and the Twins had a lot to do with that, whatever the actual particulars were. There was, I believe, a short time frame where the Yankees did put what they considered to be their best offer (whether we agree that it was or not, or whether the Twins felt it was or not) and the Twins did not move on it. And, yes, the Yankees pulled the deal, rather than the Twins out-and-out saying no. But there is truth to the matter that the Twins wanted to see if they could get more from the Red Sox before saying yes to the Yankees. I can’t say I blame the Yankees for tiring of the matter. It did drag on, or seem to.
Yes, Pettitte resigning was a part of the “mess.”
I just don’t believe it’s fair to put the whole demise of the deal on the Yankees alone. I believe there was a brief window where the deal could have been accomplished.
Mel,
I don’t believe Sanchez is a baby. He was in the Tigers system for awhile and then had a year and a half with TJ. I believe he is in his mid-20s. It will be interesting to see how the Yankees handle him, Joba, Coke and Horne (assuming healthy). Slightly different situations but could all end up as starters or relievers.
I am going to give at least Veras the benefit of the doubt. He was one of the top relievers until mid August or so. He can light up a radar gun and has a wicked second pitch. He is certainly in the discussion. Although, those positives make him nice trade bait.
Dice-K can win his 19th game against us on Friday. Remarkable considering he missed a month.
Another genius move by Epstein. I wish we had a competent GM like that.
5-5 against KC and the Sunshine Band is inexcusable. 2-4 against the dregs of the NL Central didn’t help either.
believing that two, and eventually three rookies would all pitch well at the same time AND be on a IP limit was so dumb and if wasn’t trashman doing this, everyone would have ripped him. but then wants to do the same next year. he clearly overreacted to what the sux did in ‘07, and he always does.
Buck showalter for new GM
mel -
You’re right. The ante kept going up until it was ridiculous to consider. (I myself couldn’t remember what the Twins last demand was, but I do remember Wang being part of it.)
You can’t expect to replace Giambi and Abreu’s 50 HRs and 100 RBIs with Gardner and Casey Blake.
And the fact of the matter is that Santana wanted to go to the Mets. He signed off on it. If he wanted to test FA, he could’ve said no. He could’ve named his price and team.
Both CC and Johan are very good AL pitchers, but they are shutdown pithers in the NL as it is constructed now. As someone said yesterday, you’ve got two holes in the lineup instead of one.
Speaking of, remember the good old days when Cano was our #9 hitter? Sigh…
It is with mixed feelings that I write this post. I love baseball and love the Yankees. This was not the smartest team on the field. There seemed to be an inability to predict how the team would play together. I thought they came out of spring training sharp but it never took and their baseball smarts just did not happen from the top down. A lot of stupid stuff went down. Although the latter part of the season looked good. I thought that making a change during that surge after the all-star game was done (bringing in Pudge). That seemed to throw the momentum off but I can understand doing it. But what the heck happened to Pudge. He seems a shadow of himself. If he had played the way he is capable I do believe the fat lady would not have sung as of yet.
Hat – I wouldn’t necessarily just say the Red Sox and Rays will be better.
The Rays pitched the last several months of the season with the same 5 starters. If the Yankees had Wang, Joba, Mussina, Pettite and a 5th they would have been much, much better. They are also young and can have setbacks. Crawford and Longoria had major injuries. Baldelli is probably gone.
The Red Sox – Is Beckett the 2008 or 2007 version. Can Lester continue his progress from 08. Does Dice-K pitch to his numbers and not his wins. Papelbon has had injury concerns. Wakefield is old. Okajima is much less than he was last year. Is Masterson as good as he has shown. Lowell is old and now injured. Drew is perpetually injured. Lugo is gone. Varitek is in rapid decline and may not be resigned. Will Pedroia be as good. Is Ellsbury a .270 hitter or something better. They are not infallible.
No one though the Rays would be as good as they are. The Yankees certainly don’t have as far to climb. A full year of healthy pitching, Posada, Jeter. Another year of progress for Hughes. Another step forward for the pen. FA signings.
That is why they play the games.
For as bad as the Yankees are the Tigers, Indians and Mariners are all much, much worse off. These were teams that were expected to make the playoffs.
I really hope Buck is the new GM. Cashman has too much sentimentality towards these players and some of the prospects. We need a 3rd party to provide some objectivity to the Steinbrenners.
Hal does seem like he can be easily influenced and doesn’t seem like a strong leader.
I still don’t know how Dice-K is doing it this season. Smoke and mirrors? I’ll admit though – no one seems to be able to hit him. He walks so many, yet manages to keep the runs scored down. He throws a ton of pitches and puts demands on the bullpen. But here he is, an 18-game winner.
But, the Red Sox overbid the Mets/Yankees by, what $15 million dollars or so? I don’t know that I can argue that Cashman should have bid $60 million when it was assumed the going rate was going to be, what, $25 million? Sometimes you just get beat by someone else’s desperation move.
i think there’s a misconception about the” tampa mafia” as it’s called by cashman supporters. the yankees have two bases of operations. one is new york and the other is tampa. if tampa isn’t going to have good coaches whose opinions matter, than how are the yankees going to develop players. i understand the fact hank is there complicates matters because these coaches can get in his ear. the red sox have no such problem with fort meyers because henry doesn’t live there.
the problem the yankees have with this dynamic is that cashman fears the tampa faction so much he eliminates coaches he perceives to be aligned with the tampa faction. for instance, neil allen was hired with the tampa faction’s endorsement because they were ex players hiring an ex player. they knew allen knew his stuff. well. allen single handedly created chien ming wang with his sinker. without the tampa faction , there is no chien ming wang as we know him.
who do you think allen was coaching this summer? david price would be the answer. the rays trusted price with allen for a reason. he’s a really good pitching coach. allen simply stayed in the tampa area with the rays because he lives in sarasota. a lot of great coaches live in this area. the yankees could easily get them because they live there all year and want to stay in the area. this is a huge plus. the rays are getting them and it’s part of their success.
but when cashman chases away a neil allen or other similar coaches to other tampa area based teams he ’s just taking away that tampa advantage the yankees have. it’s just dumb.
there has been a coaching talent drain in tampa for the yankees. to get good people in there, cashman has to get over his fear of having good people down there. a bunch of kiss asses down there isn’t going to be producing any chien ming wangs.
I think the Minaya getting 4 year deal from Metzies may have some influence on how Yanks and Cashman negotiate any new contract i.e. Cashman may want more year and $$.
Doreen,
Nothing they could do. Blind bid. That’s why I laugh when people want to pursue Yu Darvish. Will it cost $75M for just the right to negotiate? No thanks.
…And this “transitional year” sh*t had better come to an end. Time to spend big money, play every game with intensity, bench people in May, and even call out underachievers.
School is back in session.
“Yankee fans only like young players when they are going well. When the kids struggle, then they are overhyped bums who should be traded immediately for a bag of balls.”
Betsy, truer words were never spoken. I think most fans at the end of last year and beginning of this year were very excited about having Hughes in the rotation, myself included. It didn’t work out.
There’s plenty of blame to go around, if you want to play the blame game. Bottom line is, they didn’t get it done so what happens next?
I really don’t want to see the panic move as we saw at the end of 2001. Big name FAs aren’t the answer. That’s what we’ve seen the last 7 years and where has it gotten us? My feeling is, get ONE SP (either CC or Burnett, not both) and see if there are solid, but not marquee guys to fill in some holes. No Texieira but a solid defensive 1B that can hit .280. Where are the Scott Broscious/Tino Martinez/Chuck Knobloch guys? They don’t need Tex, they need workmen.
For me, i’d like to see Wang, Burnett, Hughes, Moose, #5 (Aceves? IPK? Someone else?) as the rotation. I say Burnett because I think CC doesn’t come to the Bronx, not because I don’t want him. I do.
As for the lineup, I’d re-sign Abreu if they can keep him for a 2 year reasonable contract. Otherwise, maybe move Nady to RF? No moving him to 1B. I’d like to see Gardner get a shot in CF, at least have him and Melky fight for it. Maybe that gets Melky’s head out of his butt.
Overall, the team is on the right track, but this year was a disappointing.
Id be surprised if the Rays get past round 1.
“the problem the yankees have with this dynamic is that cashman fears the tampa faction so much he eliminates coaches he perceives to be aligned with the tampa faction.”
There’s no problem or fear if there is a chain of command and it is followed. That is what was put in place 2 years ago. Where it becomes a problem is if people bypass it in favor of getting in the ear of a Steinbrenner.
People forget that our last successful run came under the ‘Tampa Mafia’
If Torre didn’t forget how to manage in 03 and if Mariano can get 3 outs in 2004, we could potentially have 2 more WS titles by the team created by the ‘Tampa Mafia’.
The last team that showed any fight in the postseason came in 05 when we took the Angels to 5 games and if Randy showed up or Sheff/Crosby didn’t collide in the OF, we could have won that series.
Since Cash took full control, we will humiliated by the Tigers in one of the biggest upsets in recent years. We went out quietly against the Indians and required a miraculous run by Torre to even get there. And this year, we have not played meaningless baseball in almost 6 weeks.
This is from mlb.com. The rest is kind of bittersweet, so I’ll just post this graphic:
Major League slice of life
A snapshot of the top five leaders in various individual and team categories in baseball from 1995-2007.
Player Hits
Derek Jeter 2,356
Alex Rodriguez 2,239
Garret Anderson 2,220
Craig Biggio 2,122
Manny Ramirez 2,122
Player Saves
Trevor Hoffman 499
Mariano Rivera 443
Billy Wagner 358
Troy Percival 324
Jose Mesa 319
Player Runs
Alex Rodriguez 1,497
Derek Jeter 1,379
Craig Biggio 1,352
Barry Bonds 1,337
Chipper Jones 1,294
Player Wins
Greg Maddux 216
Randy Johnson 203
Andy Pettitte 201
Mike Mussina 198
Tom Glavine 195
Team Wins
Yankees 1,252
Braves 1,230
Red Sox 1,165
Indians 1,141
Cardinals 1,117
Team Playoff wins
Yankees 78
Braves 48
Cardinals 38
Indians 35
Red Sox 33
Well the first improvements in the lineup will come from Matsui and Posada who will make up quite a bit of what is being lost. They certainly need to add a bat for CF, 1B or DH.
Why do we insist upon re-negotiating the Santana trade for crying out loud? Enough already! The logic at the time was that the Yanks could pursue CC as a FA and not give up top prospects in addition to the $$$ and that’s where we are today.
My biggest question is 1B… if not Teixiera, who? The Yanks need a REAL 1B, not a C or an OF that can’t throw.
I think it was Hank that sort of forced Phil onto the table, but then the Yankees FO guys who didn’t want to deal Phil got so pissed off by the Twins that they just pulled him altogether. The Twins took by far the worst offer – the Sox offer (including either Ellsbury or Lester) was far better than the Mutts – so as Santana wouldn’t be in the AL to haunt them for years to come. They did a terrible job, playing the Yankees and Sox against each other, knowing that they were never going to deal Johan to either team. Seriously, though, I put this in the rear view mirror as soon as the Mets deal went down and I have never looked back. Poor Phil’s problem is that most fans have long memories and they will never forgive him for not being traded. He’s not allowed to struggle even though Santana himself was no immediate superstar.
“I don’t know that I can argue that Cashman should have bid $60 million when it was assumed the going rate was going to be, what, $25 million? Sometimes you just get beat by someone else’s desperation move.”
Doreen:
I’m not sure the true desperation move wasn’t putting up $26M to talk to Igawa shortly after losing out on Matsuzaka.
“There’s no problem or fear if there is a chain of command and it is followed. That is what was put in place 2 years ago. Where it becomes a problem is if people bypass it in favor of getting in the ear of a Steinbrenner.”
if you have a bunch of no talent kiss asses marching in lock step to cashman’s orders how does that make a good minor league operation?
really good coaches need to have some room to move and breath , and an organization needs to have healthy differences of opinion.
“He throws a ton of pitches and puts demands on the bullpen. But here he is, an 18-game winner.”
No more demand than Mussina does. Matsuzaka averages 5.85 innings per start. Mussina averages 5.88. That’s basically 18 outs per start on average for both guys. Real difference is that Mussina on average need to face 24 batters and throw 92 pitches to get his 18 outs. Matsuzaka had to face 25 batters and throw 101 pitchers.
Dice-K can win his 19th game against us on Friday. Remarkable considering he missed a month.
Another genius move by Epstein. I wish we had a competent GM like that.
One good move and you think epstein is god?
FYI… Cashman 3 Titles vs. Epstein 2.
if we dont sign abreu and giambi back we still gonna need a big bat i would sign ramirez for a 2year deal with options i played him onece in a blue in left field and play him dh just focusing on hitting
Amen Fredo!
Randy— I agree different opinions are important in any organization, but in the 2002-05 range there was an extremely unhealthy atmosphere in the organization where Cashman and the NY people were having every decision undermined by the so-called Tampa Mafia… at least it appears the franchise’s key people are now on the same page and that much better.
It was the undeniable drafting and player development incompetence of the Tampa Mafia that led The Boss to diminish their impact and autonomy. I’d say Cashman has about two years to start bringing position players to the top levels.
Fredo– The “Amen” was for the Igawa comment
86:
I figured as much.
yankeefan91:
There’s already a logjam at LF/DH. The Yankees don’t need another person to fight for playing time. Matsui and Damon are not going to be traded so it’s reasonable to say that Damon or Nady will be in LF and Matsui will DH full time. If they can move Nady to RF, that alleviates one problem, but you still have to get Damon and Matsui into the line up.
No need for ManRam. Besides, I think Boras is going to want at least a 3 year deal for him where he can play LF, not to DH.
“FYI… Cashman 3 Titles vs. Epstein 2.”
if cashman just took over three years ago how does he have 3 titles?
if he was in control when those three titles came in, how is he not responsible for this team this year?
you can’t have it both ways.
but how are we gonna replace all does runs The Other Phil thats 180 + runs batted in there
Fredo -
I’ll give ya Igawa as a desperation move.
But I would “argue” that Moose was expected to be a 5-6 inning pitcher. I think that the expectations for Matsuzaka were higher. I know after last year, when he did not “dominate” as predicted he would, expectations are clearly lowered – not the “ace” with the gyroball they had hoped for, but a really, really good #2 or #3. Still, more than Moose.
I’m certainly not sayin’ Matsuzaka isn’t good, but certainly he’s had a fair amount of luck this season, combined with obvious skill at being able to pitch out of trouble.
“It was the undeniable drafting and player development incompetence of the Tampa Mafia that led The Boss to diminish their impact and autonomy. I’d say Cashman has about two years to start bringing position players to the top levels.”
why does this sound so familiar but under a new username?
i guess if i believed this kind of stuff i’d change mine after a year like this too.
Doreen:
Don’t disagree with your argument. Merely pointing out that Matsuzaka is no more a drain on his bullpen than Mussina is on his.
The Yankees were shut out in two of Kennedy’s early games.
91: I wish I knew. But it doesn’t work to have ManRam because you still lose the production of either Nady, Matsui or Damon. If Matsui can stay healthy, he’s usually good for, what, 90-100 rbis? A full year of Nady in RF and he’s a .290/25/100 guy, so there’s some good production (IF he can play RF). Then they need a solid (but not marquee) 1B that can hopefully give .275/20/80. Who is that? I have no idea…
doreen-
it’s going to be an unsettled fall this year until the yankees and cashman make a decision about the gm position.
that’s one variable that has to be decided before they do anything else.
randy l -
Yes. Is it correct that the Steinbrenners have asked for a quick decision by Cashman?
GM status is Job 1.
Randy I–
Don’t make baseless accusations. I’ve been on this site for about five months always using the same “handle”. Maybe my points sound familiar because there are other informed posters here who know the truth about the Yankees drafting and player development in the decade prior to 2005.
If you wish to defend the Yankees drafting and player development in those years we’d all be delighted to hear it. Everyone can use a good laugh.
I’ve been saying this for weeks now, I think Abreu must be resigned.
I’m all for getting younger, more athletic, etc. But people are grossly undervaluing this guy. What seperated Abreu from the other 30+ overpaid veterans on this roster? Oh yeah, he NEVER gets hurt.
I love Matsui to death, but the guy is broken down. He missed almost a whole year with the wrist. Then it was the hammy, the knee, now the other knee. Damon is constantly coming up with little nagging injuries. Giambi has spent hundreds of games on the DL the past few years.
Abreu has played in at least 150 games every year since 1998. His numbers have not tailed off. He’s 34 not 38. Even if you give him a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd year, he’ll only be 36 at the end of the guaranteed portion of the deal.
Here are his 2008 numbers so far with team ranking below.
G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB K SB
152 595 94 178 39 4 19 282 95 69 103 20
2nd 1st 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd
.299/.373/.474/.847
Its a no-brainer to me.
Miggs—
Problem is Matsui is signed for ‘09 and Abreu isn’t. Bringing him back without moving Matsui just doesn’t make sense unless you are in the group who believes anyone can play 1B.
Now if Matsui can be part of a deal for a young pitcher or CF then I’d be fine with Abreu coming back to be a DH/OF.
Miggs:
If he can be re-signed to a reasonable deal, I’m all for it. I just think that he’s looking for a 3yr min deal, which I hope the Yanks won’t do.
And unfortunately, the thing about injuries is, they’re not a problem until they are. Before Posada and Matsui got hurt, they were also guys that never got hurt. You never know how things will go. Maybe that’s why he shies from the wall so much…
Since Nady has played the majority of his career in RF (I finally looked it up), it would make sense to move him there, leave Damon in LF and have Matsui DH full-time.
86:
I don’t think he’ll get moved. He’ll make $13m next year and has a no-trade clause.
I don’t see another team taking on his $13m salary for a LF that now has a history of injuries and is more suited to be a DH.
I agree, which is why I can’t rationalize signing Abreu. They should offer Arbitration to preserve the possible draft picks. If he accepts, time to teach someone 1B !!
I cringe everytime Abreu goes back on a fly ball. The guy is deathly afraid of leaving his feet, hitting the wall, or colliding with the center fielder.
I like it when he comes to the plate, but he kills ya in the field.
It comes down to Cashman refusing to trade for a number 1 pitcher, Santana, and doing absolutely nothing to upgrade the offense or bench last winter, then giving Cano a big contract when it wasn’t necessary. I also think that refusing to re-sign Bowa, who was begging to stay, was a mistake by Cashman. Cashman reacted to the Red Sox, rather than being pro-active. (see Igawa). I hope that he decides to take a walk to Seattle, because it looks like Gillick is staying in Philly.
Among the goals the team needs to set for 2009 is never to be swept in a series and in particular with teams they should beat.
Losing 2 of 3 can happen with any team but with the talent and changes expected for 2009, being swept is unexceptable.
petes stat is kind of stupid in the fact that he includes baltimore. pete states that vs everyone else we won 59% of our games. but he includes baltimore in the group that we played poorly against even though winning 11 of 18 means we won 61% of our games vs baltimore. I understand pete is trying to make his point carry more weight but including baltimore is not being honest about things or just being lazy and not looking at how the math works.
Doreen
September 24th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Fredo -
I’ll give ya Igawa as a desperation move.
But I would “argue†that Moose was expected to be a 5-6 inning pitcher. I think that the expectations for Matsuzaka were higher. I know after last year, when he did not “dominate†as predicted he would, expectations are clearly lowered – not the “ace†with the gyroball they had hoped for, but a really, really good #2 or #3. Still, more than Moose.
I’m certainly not sayin’ Matsuzaka isn’t good, but certainly he’s had a fair amount of luck this season, combined with obvious skill at being able to pitch out of trouble.
________________________________________________
Major part of the problem with the Tampa Faction can be laid at the feet of Billy Connors, who, somehow convinced George Steinbrenner that he knew about pitching. Steinbrenner hired him and he became George’s snitch. He’d let GS know who on the team was talking about him. Connors was as bad a pitching coach as there is. Here is the 2007 assessment of Billy Connors on Kei Igawa.
nypost.com/seven/02082007/sports/yankees/kei_workout_yankees_.htm
Just add WWW. to the front of it.
Miggs, I agree 100%. We cannot afford to lose Abreu. He is consistant, doesn’t get hurt, is multifaceted and his defensive problems are exaggerated by most people. His numbers are just too damn good. He must be resigned to a 2 or 3 year deal (I like 2 with an option). Nady is no replacement for Abreu since coming to the Yankees he is batting .267 in the same time frame Abreu is batting .335.
My fear is some other team is going to offer him as big and long a contract as he wants because they know that he is going to keep putting up a .300 BA with 20 homers and 100 rbi’s for some years to come.
The let’s get rid of Abreu crowd is just wrong as far as I’m concerned. Bobby has earned a new contract and that is all there is to it.