Progress for Phil
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Podcast on Sep 24, 2008 
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It’s easy to say these are meaningless games. But for Phil Hughes, throwing eight strong innings and showing that he can throw that big hammer curveball for strikes was an important step.
In his own words, Hughes was “pissed off” he hung a curve to Scott Rolen in the eighth inning that cost him a win. But Hughes can now head to Arizona knowing he has pitched very well the last month or so. He is going to be a factor for the Yankees next season, you watch.
Here is Phil talking about his night. The first few questions are from Kim Jones and I asked him a few:
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You mean he isn’t a bust? lol
It gets worse for the Mets. 9-6 Cubbies.
That was Phil’s last hurrah?
Good job Phil!
Horrible job by Luis Ayala for the Mets
Manny Ramirez’s cousin Aramis just put a knife in the Mets heart.
“That was Phil’s last hurrah?”
Yes it was Mel. Fear not he is going to AFL to get his IP up for 09.
I agree 100%. It takes time for young players to develop and it’s a smart move sending Hughes to the AFL for further development.
I’m assuming Austin Jackson’s MRI on his back was negative and he should be good to go for the AFL, right?
From the last thread:
Joe: Being a medieval history student fun. I actually have a sword collection–two broadswords, a light sword, a civil war sword and a wooden practice sword–and I have a ren gown, too.
Dennis: Yes.
I’ve been following the Yankees since 1996–I’m too young to remember any year before that even if I wanted to.
So Yankee-less baseball in October is uncharted territory, but of the other teams I follow (Nets, Jets, Devils and Syracuse), I’m quite used to failure.
The Mets are a joke w/ that bullpen, and Omar gets a four year extension?
“Manny Ramirez’s cousin Aramis just put a knife in the Mets heart.”
Are they seriously related? I always thought Aramis looked like a younger Manny but I never made a connection.
I’m assuming Austin Jackson’s MRI on his back was negative and he should be good to go for the AFL, right?
He can’t play in AFL as per the rules. Jackson will be shutdown till ST.
Are they seriously related? I always thought Aramis looked like a younger Manny but I never made a connection.
YES he’s his cousin from D.R.
I was very impressed with Hughes today.
Yet, the Yankees should not hand him a spot in the rotation yet, let him get his innings up in the AFL and start out in AAA. As from previous seasons we know that you can never have enough pitchers, and hopefully he might get a shot with the Yankees sometime in the 09 season.
Brandon, what are the rules?
Let’s go cubs
If we really are gonna sign Sabathia, we need to root for Milwaukee to lose. They are gonna beat his arm to hell there. 107 pitches on 3 days rest tonight, and they plan on throwing him on 3 days rest on Sunday too.
From everything I’ve read, and heard him being interviewed over the past couple of years, Phil sounds like he has his head screwed on right – pretty good for the ripe old age of 22.
Brandon, what are the rules?
Nope never mind he can play but I doubt they put him in AFL this year.
What rules regarding Austin Jackson? He’s on the roster per the AFL site?
“If we really are gonna sign Sabathia, we need to root for Milwaukee to lose. They are gonna beat his arm to hell there. 107 pitches on 3 days rest tonight, and they plan on throwing him on 3 days rest on Sunday too.”
You’re right. CC’s arm should be given a rest already. However watching this much Mets failure is very pleasant.
It would be highly comical for someone to oppose bringing Pettitte back because he’s “injury prone”. Who will have pitched the most innings for the Yanks this year? Yes, Andy Pettitte.
Pettitte pitched 175 innings in his rookie year. After that, he’s gone over 200 innings in 8 of his 10 other seasons as a Yankee (the other two were for 192 and 135 innings).
Pettitte pitched 3 seasons for the Astros. In this first season there he only pitched 83 innings — the only truly major injury in his career. After that year? He then pitched 222 and 214 innings for the Astros and then 215 and 204 for the Yankees.
Yeah, highly “injury prone”.
Eligibility Rules
The eligibility rules to play in the AFL are simple.
The roster size is 30 players per team.
Each Major League organization is required to provide six players subject to the following requirements:
All Triple-A and Double-A players are eligible, provided the players are on at least a Double-A level roster no later than Aug. 1.
One player below the Double-A level is allowed per Major League team.
One foreign player is allowed, as long as the player does not reside in a country that participates in winter ball, as part of the Caribbean Confederation or the Australian winter league.
No players with more than one year of credited Major League service as of August 31 are eligible, except a team may select one player picked in the most recently concluded Major League Rule 5 Draft.
To be eligible, players on Minor League disabled lists must be activated at least 45 days before the conclusion of their respective seasons.
Mutts lose and Brewers win!
That just put a dent on Mutts’ postseason hopes
The Mets annual collapse is truly fall’s must see tv.
Joe: I know almost no one my age that’s nearly as mature as Hughes is, myself included.
I loved Phil’s comment about how he hopes to still be learning when he’s 40. Then Pete asked him if he was going to be a cranky old man like Moose – and I thought I heard someone go “what?!!”. Was that Moose? LOL
does hughes have a lisp?
WFAN is gonna be must listen radio people.
A sword collection, huh? Must be a great conversation starter with guys.
And on that note….It’s off to the land of nod. I’ve got to drive back and forth to Philly tomorrow; family stuff.
Good night, all.
The most brutal thing about the Mets collapse. Johan Santana is not going to start for the rest of the season
Phil’s makeup was a huge reason why he was the #1 pitching prospect in baseball.
I know fans love Joba for his ebullient personality (besides his 98 MPH FB) and cocky demeanor, but I gravitate towards Phil and his quiet confidence (his personality is more like mine). I know we haven’t seen it too often because he’s been either hurt or rehabbing most of the time, but Phil is a confident kid and he’s just got the right stuff. Remember how well he pitched in the ALDS? That takes real gumption for any pitcher, nevermind a 21 year old, to come into a packed YS and shut down a good lineup. Phil, when he gave the ball to Torre, said “This is so **** fun!” LOL I just love that attitude……..this kid is going places. Patience is a virtue, so let’s exhibit some.
The most brutal thing about the Mets collapse. Johan Santana is not going to start for the rest of the season
If they need him he’ll start, no way he doesn’t now.
Nick,
Leave the fish alone.
Joe: You have no idea
Becca- cool vid on the blog. I could feel the pain in your voice
Also for anyone who missed when Greg posted pics of the new stadium heres the link:
http://slidingintohome.blogspo.....pdate.html
Just parachuting in here – I’m really happy to see Phil had the goods tonight. I understand why people want him to spend a significant portion of the year at AAA next year – but with the way starters get hurt, I’m willing to bet we’ll see him in the Yankee rotation early and often.
I also think it is nice for Bobby to go off on a high-note – he can get a 3 year deal elsewhere as far as I’m concerned.
since the Yanks isn’t going to the playoffs, the Mets isn’t going either. I don’t want my friends (mets fans) bugging me that the Mets in the playoffs and the Yanks isn’t.
Once you get pass the swords she owns Rebecca actually is a sweet person to get to know.
Meanwhile Jerry Manuel’s laugh I love it
“He is going to be a factor for the Yankees next season, you watch.”
You mean he will be getting zero wins again and causing us to miss the playoff for another year ????
Sorry, mel, but some of the fish were claiming to be part of some special 10% of super-savvy fish and were splashing around and making a lot of noise. And the shotgun was right there next to the barrel…
Becca- Nice vid on your blog. You look so sad, I feel your pain
BTW anyone who missed the recent pics of the new stadium see Greg’s 5:01 PM post in the game thread since I can’t get the URL through the filter.
You know somewhere Willie is sitting back watching the Mets collapse with a huge smile on his face.
Brandon: Wow, you’re gonna make me blush
Al: You know, the funny thing is, I really wasn’t all that depressed–I came across much more depressed and upset than I was.
I made my peace with not going to the playoffs back in the middle of August, and you know, with a different playoff structure we’re in the playoffs, so I really am not freaking out over this.
Liking the Nets and the Jets can be good for more than just masochism
CC sabathia can rest his arm on the DL for the next 6 years while still collecting his 160 million $.
So what does he care? He’s already all set for life and beyond.
“So what does he care? He’s already all set for life and beyond.”
Just because Pavano did this doesn’t mean that every pitcher is a punk.
I really can’t say that I’d want to trade places with a Mets fan right now.
And how does Omar get Wilpon to give him a 4 year ext? Jeez pretty much everyone saw this bullpen for what it was last winter.
Meanwhile our boys are playing their best ball all year.
Will they have to move the Mets/Marlins series to Rogers Centre or somewhere like the Astros/Cubs series if the rain comes down as predicted this weekend?
Rebecca: nice video. just curious, do you have braces on? the video seems more like a lecture video to me than a depressing one. overall, awesome video and totally agreeing every word you said. Probably the west coast trip did killed our chance of making it to the playoffs, along with injuries, leaving risp, and bad pitching with Ponson and Rasner.
can you believe this guy? http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....tml?page=0
Ed: Haven’t had braces in about eight years.
“Al: You know, the funny thing is, I really wasn’t all that depressed–I came across much more depressed and upset than I was.
I made my peace with not going to the playoffs back in the middle of August, and you know, with a different playoff structure we’re in the playoffs, so I really am not freaking out over this.
Liking the Nets and the Jets can be good for more than just masochism”
You’re a Jets fan too, we have 2 teams in common. I am also a (sigh) Knicks fan.
“Yeah, highly “injury proneâ€.”
It would be highly stupid for someone to suggest that Andy should be brought back just because he has pitched so many innings, when he has a 10% days out to innings pitched ratio! Oh you just did suggest that Nick. What a riot!
Rebeeca: oh okay, gotcha.
Max,
Pay no attention to the drivel that particular man spews.
yeah, Hughes is definitely going to be a player, health willing. his curve’s incredible, and the rest of his arsenal is sweet.
Hey, we’re tied with the Mets & the Brewers for the Wild Card!
Ed: My camera picks up a lisp whenever I speak, but I don’t actually have a lisp, which is fairly frustrating.
However given that I don’t think I look particularly good on camera anyway, it’s not really all that important.
Rebecca, I think you are an extremely intelligent Yankee fan and a great extemporaneous speaker. I also think you look very cute on camera. ( And no I’m not gay, not that there’s anything wrong with that!)
My camera picks up a lisp whenever I speak, but I don’t actually have a lisp, which is fairly frustrating.
well it happens. keep up the good work.
mel September 24th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Hey, we’re tied with the Mets & the Brewers for the Wild Card!
—————————————————————
In Hank’s world, The Yanks are still in it!
keep up the good work though**
Hey for those of you willing to delve into different ways of deciphering the future, dennis linked to an article that has as part of it NY astrologers predicting great good fortune for the new Yankee Stadium, both financial and otherwise!
GO 2009 YANKEES!!!
What prolific LoHud blog poster trisha has done is illustrate how statistics can be misused to argue a weak point. As anyone who looks at Andy Pettitte’s career will see, he’s been a dependable starter who has given his teams over 200 innings almost every year. One very bad injury in one season skews the stats.
Following that one season, Pettitte has gone over 200 innings four consecutive times, including the 2008 season, in which he was the innings leader for his team. In fairness to trisha, it’s quite possible that she’s not deliberately trying to mislead anyone and just hasn’t really looked at the numbers or thought them through.
http://www.baseball-reference......an01.shtml
As for the “highly stupid” and “what a riot” remarks, that just goes to show the bipolar nature of that “let’s agree to disagree” poster.
At the risk of getting jumped all over by the Kennedy should be traded crowd, I don’t understabd why the Yanks didn’t bring he and Wright up for possible starts this last week. Particulaerly Kennedy, who started on 9/16.
Did we really need to showcase Pavano and Ponson for future employment one more time? I’m at least okay re Sidney – he stepped into a difficult situation and at least tried to help, but by the end there he was hopeless. On the other hand, Pavano will have his agent du jour trumpeting his wins late in the season in a “playoff” race – he could be 5-1 in 7 starts if the Yanks hit real well tomorrow. Awful. It would be kind of funny if the Yanks hitters laid down for Halladay tomorrow. Hope Joe plays the B squad – where are Shelly and Christian when we need them?
Isn’t it strange that Carl has hit more batters than all but the top 4 Yanks in IP? I guess no one feels a need to dodge an 88 mph fastball.
“It would be highly stupid for someone to suggest that Andy should be brought back just because he has pitched so many innings, when he has a 10% days out to innings pitched ratio! Oh you just did suggest that Nick.”
Followup question for trisha: can you cite the post today in which I suggested that Andy should be brought back because he has pitched so many innings [in almost every season he's been a major league pitcher]?
I don’t think Andy Pettitte is the problem!
a lot of people are pumped up on A.J. Burnett. but when you look at the stats, his season hasn’t been much better than Andy’s. and this is Andy’s worst season in a long time, while it’s the first time in awhile that Burnett has pitched 200 innings.
Dis I miss a film clip of Rebecca and her swords, or am I just completely lost ???
trisha and nick – play nice!
Oh sorry! I was just responding to your typically derisive comments, usually made when you think the poster at the end of your barb is probably not around. What do I expect from a poodle clipper. Since you described my suggestion as comical, I thought it was very fair to suggest yours as stupid, which it is.
Bipolar nature? A little out of your league aren’t you trying to make psychological diagnoses now? And I never sugtested that agree to disagree had anything to do with you. I find you one of the more nasty and sneaky posters here. I don’t care who your friends are by the way. You might amuse some people here. I find you barely tolerable.
So guess what? I will come back on you each and every time you try to take a cheap shot at something I say. Because you are nothing more than a cheap shot artist. I have to at least respect posters who vehemently disagree with my positions and explain why in baseball terms rather than sneak around with derisive one liners spoken in uppity tones feeling superior to get one off at someone else’s expense.
So there you have it clip artist.
How about they just stop playing? Nick, go eat a Moose Bar or something.
BTW, very pleased that our C lineup came through today.
Andy Pettite is 4th all time in starts for the Yankees.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
dennis: I’m just in favor of truth in baseball analysis!
Plus, I’m still trying to wrap my head around your Steely Dan guess. And I can’t do it.
Oh sorry! I was just responding to your typically derisive comments, usually made when you think the poster at the end of your barb is probably not around. Since you described my suggestion as comical, I thought it was very fair to suggest yours as stupid, which it is.
Bipolar nature? A little out of your league aren’t you trying to make psychological diagnoses now? And I never sugtested that agree to disagree had anything to do with you. I find you one of the more nasty and sneaky posters here.
Expedt me to come back on you each and every time you try to take a cheap shot at something I say. Because you are nothing more than a cheap shot artist. I have to at least respect posters who vehemently disagree with my positions and explain why in baseball terms rather than sneak around with derisive one liners spoken in uppity tones feeling superior to get one off at someone else’s expense.
So CC and Johan back on the mound tomorrow?
Sorry. That’s bad. I have no right to be laughing at such matters when we’re on the outside looking in.
Haha.
Well it looks like it posted twice. I did at least try to edit out some of the more incendiary lines but looks like I wasn’t successful. Everything happens for a reason. Maybe it was meant to be in there.
Victorino picked a fight with J-Taveras. similar like the Sheffield fight. I like.
And what’s Santana’s record and how has he pitched since June?
Yeah.
And people wonder why we are going home.
“Phil’s makeup was a huge reason why he was the #1 pitching prospect in baseball.”
His stuff was why he was a prime prospect. A lot of kids have great makeup. Without talent you are just a great kid.
Ed,
What did Victorino say? “What? You like scrap or what?” I hope Shane called Julian a crazy MF.
nick… subversive lyrics cleverly disguised with tight arrangements, funk grooves and jazz chord progressions. kind of like your posts, no?
I think all the hype last year and coming into this Spring may have put the zap on young Phil’s psyche early this season. He broke his rib throwing the ball he was so tense. Yanks actually did good by him by not calling him up unti they were out of it. Hopefully he’ll be their #5 with 4 horses in front of him next season so he doesn’t feel so pressured next year.
mel: this person gets into it with 15 different people during the game thread and I’m the one you single out? That’s not fair!
trisha: your 12:18 a.m. post is illustrative, but whatever; you don’t like me, that’s fine. Nonetheless, if you read my 11:15 p.m. and 12:03 a.m. posts, you will see that they respond to your point about Andy Pettitte in the baseball terms you requested. If you have to “come back on [me]“, can it be with a baseball response one of these times? I’d be curious to see it.
I’m also curious to see if you have a rational response to the question posed in my 12:11 a.m. post, as you made an unjustified accusation, seemingly based on an unwarranted assumption.
Last, I’m still curious as to the nature and meaning of your repeated “poodle clipper” slur, but you’ve thus far rejected every opportunity to explain yourself.
And people wonder why we are going home.
Because this team couldn’t score a run for most of the season if their lives depended on it.
Nick,
It’s called tough love.
Mel:
Julian almost picked Victorino off at 3B. Victorino was like “you want to tag me out at 3b? here you go.” (10 inches away from 3B and pointing at it) As Julian was walking back to the mound, I think Victorino was shout “you wuss”, then Julian came charing at Victorino. the Philles 3B coach was holding down Victorino but no punches were throwing.
shouting*
It’s suppose to rain for the next few days in the NY Metro area. Gonna be hard to get those Mets games in.
mel-
You’re post speaks of a seasoned parent.
Poodle clipper? Huh?
Nick, let it go. SJ44 went down this road earlier.
Trisha – there’s 2 arguments here.
1, is Andy injury prone? By virtually any definition which is a measureable and relative to all pitchers fact, Andy is not injury prone.
2. does that mean X wants him back with the Yanks in ’09? A matter of opinion about which we can each freely disagree. But few if any have stated that because he’s not injury prone, we should bring him back. Those that want him back do because he takes the ball when it matters if he can. (I recognize you think Saturday’s game is important, but it likely will not matter in the standings, and should it, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear Andy offered to pitch.) Or because he has provided many good performances, because he’s a “true Yankee”, because they like his giant schnoz, or whatever reason they choose.
His “injury proneness” is a matter of fact, not opinion. His return is a matter of opinion. As a lawyer, you surely recognize the difference.
Mel-
Here’s the complete story on the bench clearing:
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/.....8;c_id=atl
dennis: ah, thank you. I only have the “Best Of Steely Dan” CD, but I appreciate the compliment. I couldn’t quite say that Yo La Tengo’s “I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One” has the exact same qualities you mentioned, but I think it’s a great album.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....ing_as_One
Nick, the day you show the ability to communicate without having to throw your Don Rickles type slurs or put downs in your posts I will be happy to give you an inkind response. I hardly need your derisive adjectives or uppity tone in order to understand a point you are attempting to make. In fact, anyone with a modicum of intelligence would figure out that those little barbs do nothing to foster communication. But I am sure your point is hardly to foster communication as much as it is to engage in put downs for the benefit of the forum and at the expense of a poster who does not tend to put you in the same position. I believe that is known as bullying.
That said, and for the sake of sound baseball analysis, I will point out that Pettitte had down time due to injuries in 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008. Hardly what I would consider “not injury prone.” But you may feel differently.
Wasn’t Dom DiMaggio sometimes known as The Poodle Clipper?
you guys ever wonder how different our conversations would be( or not) if we were all in one big room together?
“1, is Andy injury prone? By virtually any definition which is a measureable and relative to all pitchers fact, Andy is not injury prone.”
I think you really need to do more than keep saying this same thing over and over without showing any basis for your saying it. I have shown that he has had a lot of days out due to injuries, relative to the pitchers who have had more innings than he has! Upon what measurable fact are you basing your statement?
trisha-
Are u serious?
“Wasn’t Dom DiMaggio sometimes known as The Poodle Clipper?”
I don’t know, was he?
S.A.-Looking forward to 2009 and hopefully the offense won’t be so offensive.
September 25th, 2008 at 12:34 am
And people wonder why we are going home.
Because this team couldn’t score a run for most of the season if their lives depended on
________________________________________________________
That’s about the size of it. 69 games of 3 runs or less is not win many games unless the starters are the 1963 version of Koufax, Drysdale and Podres heading the rotation. That the Yanks have won 87 games with that run production in the AL East with this rotation is actually quite amazing. This staff with last year’s offense would already have 100 wins.
dennis,
I suspect I would be brutal with the teasing.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.
nyfaninlaaland: thank you, very well put, and you very ably figured out the logic error that opposing counsel made.
dennis: thanks for the compliment, though I suspect that if tonight’s posts were a metaphorical concert, you might not think the band had been on top of its game. Anyway, I only have the Steely Dan “Best Of” CD, but I do enjoy it. I’m not sure if Yo La Tengo would be to your liking, but they do possess some of the same qualities, and “I Can Hear the Heart Beating As One” is, for my money, a great record.
http://tinyurl.com/3grdex
***69 games of 3 runs or less is not winning many games unless the starters are the 1963 version of Koufax, Drysdale and Podres***
Buddy Biancala – am I serious about WHAT?
Are you telling me that you don’t consider a pitching missing 289 days in 13 years due to injuries a lot of time to have missed?????
Moose has pitched 4 years longer and has less than half that time out!
And by the way, to show how things can quickly move off course, I started my whole arugment by saying I preferred Moose back to Andy since Moose was much less injury prone and a more effective pitcher (as witnessed by this year anyway). So I was doing a comparison between Moose and Andy. It quickly escalated to Andy vs. the rest of the league.
Pat: Click on my username. Video of myself rambling on my blog.
It’s not much, really, but I was bored this morning.
“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.
nyfaninlaaland: thank you, very well put, and you very ably figured out the logic error that opposing counsel made.”
You do realize that in real life no jury would let opposing counsel get away with making the statement made by nyfaninlaaland without him giving solid evidence to back up his statement. Unless and until he does, I am afraid that I am going to be awarded the verdict since I took the time to give facts and figures relative to other pitchers and he did nothing more than make a statement with nothing to back it up but his say so.
Rebecca I guess you are putting down my ability to assess intelligence and talent since I thought you did a really good job on your blog? I thought you were thoughtful, articulate and poised. And I am serious about that.
But you know yourself better than I know you. Maybe that is a weak effort compared to your best.
Tony Paige is cracking me up right now
trisha-
If you are putting Pettitte in the same class as AJ Burnett, Ben Sheets & the American Idle, you are sorely mistaken.
Trisha: I thought of what I said when I was walking back from grocery shopping…
Thank you, though. I’m one of the few people in the world that actually enjoys public speaking–the larger the crowd the better!
But I don’t wear make up and I tend to mumble. Which wouldn’t get me very far if I was to take it seriously.
I care much more about my writing, so feel free to evaluate that if you wish.
Brandon: What’s he saying?
OK Trish, guess it’s my turn.
You can’t measure Pettitte’s injury proneness relative to pitchers that have pitched more innings than he.
That’s tantamount to saying George Bush is the greatest president in American history this century. Or the worst.
It would be best measured against all predominantly starting pitchers with lets say 1000+ career innings pitched. I’m sure you see that if you confine the field to pitchers with more IP than Andy, you’re pre-selecting for those least injured. Not the appropriate test set. I’m just as sure that if this larger database was employed, and average starts missed due to injury was the measure, Andy would hold up just fine. I’m not gonna run the numbers.
Players get hurt and miss a game or 2 almost all the time – because starting pitchers play less often, 1 game missed seems like a bigger deal. That Andy has made over 30 starts in all but 2 of the 13 seasons following his rookie year, none since 2004, should be enough to settle this on a relative factual basis.
Good enough?
Doesn’t mean my opinion is I want Andy back, or not. I want him if he can be effective. I, like you, feel the Yanks org has a better handle on that than I. If they choose to want him back, I hope it turns out to be a good decision. But if it doesn’t work out that won’t make it a bad one.
trisha, since you missed the point, I’ll spell it out for you: above, you made it very, very clear what you think of me as a LoHud blog commenter; rather than respond to that, I chose to rest my case and let your remarks speak for the both of us.
What nyfaninlaaland figured out was the logical fallacy inherent in your statement that I had advocated bringing Andy Pettitte back because he’s not injury prone, which of course I hadn’t done.
I do believe that you’re abusing the statistics and ignoring the breadth of Andy Pettitte’s career, but you’ve chosen not to respond to the facts I laid out.
And just for the record, I did not mean in any way to suggest anything about your real-life mental state; I only referred to the sometimes contradictory nature of your posts here. If you took it any other way, I apologize.
Why does everyone forget Hughes’ game against the Indians in his second start back from the dl last year? Him and Joba combined for a shutout.
“If you are putting Pettitte in the same class as AJ Burnett, Ben Sheets & the American Idle, you are sorely mistaken.”
I’m not putting him in the class of the worst pitchers in the majors in terms of being injured and never said that I was. I was merely making the statement that he is injury prone. I tried to show all of the days out he has had to prove that. To me, it’s too many. To others it might not be a lot.
Anyway, my bottom line was that I preferred to bring back only one of either him or Moose and that my preference was Moose because he had a more effective season and was less injury prone than Pettitte. Those two facts are irrefutable. Others may not think that those are sufficient reasons for choosing that way, nor may they think that only one of the two should return. Some may feel that neither should return. All a matter of opinion. So that was my opinion and my reason for that opinion.
But Trisha,
Please just look at the games Andy’s started over the years.
I mean you just said he had down time due to injuries during all these years but if you look at his stats, he’s made pretty much every start.
2001 – 31 starts
2005 – 33
2006 – 35
2008 – 33
in 2007, one of his “non injury” years he made 34 starts.
In 2002 and 2004, he was legitimately injured but that’s about it for his whole career.
Just how many starts do you think these guys make every season?
Mussina, who has pitched 4 more years than Andy as you stated only has about 105 more starts than Andy. Or roughly 26 starts per year more.
Both are pretty resilient to injury.
Mussina a bit more so as he’s never needed any surgeries.
Given all that, If I had to chose one or the other for next year, I would take Moose and I’m positive anyone else would too given the year Moose has had.
Last season I would have taken Andy and so would have you.
“I do believe that you’re abusing the statistics and ignoring the breadth of Andy Pettitte’s career, but you’ve chosen not to respond to the facts I laid out.”
Actually I did not ignore your facts. What I used as a comparison was pitchers who had pitched much longer with far fewer days out due to injuries. Whether you consider that worthy commentary is another story. I used those pitchers because someone had mentioned them as comparisons for Andy. I realize he has had a lengthy career but a lengthy career does not necessarily mean a career devoid of a lot of injury. That was why I saw your using length of career as meaningless. Perhaps I missed some other intent or fact you laid out. If I did it was not intentional.
Yes, you missed the point. I did not lay out length of career, I laid out number of innings pitched in the overwheleming majority of seasons pitched. “Days missed due to injury” is meaningless if it’s heavily skewed by one or two seasons, which it is in Andy Pettitte’s case.
In the four years following the season in which he pitched the smallest number of innings, he pitched over 200 innings in all of them. As I wrote above.
By the way Trish – I missed the post where you cited your “evidence”. I jumped off the prior post long ago. So not seeing your dat set, you are correct in calling me out for not showing mine.
But mine would be too much to cover quickly, and I don’t care enough about the process. I just hope that you can recognize using guys who’ve pithed more innings than Andy is a skewed data set.
On the Moose vs Andy thing that you mention, I actually wouldn’t be unhappy to have both back if they accepted 1 year contracts at significantly reduced rates, perhaps with performance incentives to give them an appropriate upside if they performed well. Not unprecented for pitchers at advanced baseball ages.
Will they? Don’t know. That could mean we’d only need one other FA SP, though I might prefer we got 2 and let one of our 2 vets go. I hope Wang will be healthy, and I expect Joba will be innings limited again like this season, so others would get a shot as well. As we’ve seen evry season, it takes more than 5 starters. I’d hope Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy, and the others in the system were up to any demands.
Just for the record
162 games divided by 5 starters = 32.4 starts
Pettite’s 14 seasons / 426 starts = 30.4 starts per season.
Occured to me after the fact, but perhaps I need a continuance?
” But Hughes can now head to Arizona knowing he has pitched very well the last month or so. He is going to be a factor for the Yankees next season, you watch.”
Right you are Pete, and I think he should be given a legitimate shot at the rotation in spring. I also think Ponson should be given a look as a long reliever.
Pettite, Wang, Chamberlain, Mussina, Hughes. Looks good to me, but if Sabathia can be had for under 6 years at the right price and the Brewers don’t ruin his arm, I like him in there in place of Pettite. Love Andy, but he does seem to be breaking down.
Continuance granted.
Court is adjourned and will recommence at 10.00 tomorrow morning because I won’t be awake before then.
Honorable Rebecca Optimst Prime, presiding.
Bronx, I am willing to admit that those starts are a very healthy number in those years. And no I hadn’t broken out the stats that way.
I know we can’t count him as having 2 extra months down time this year despite now being told he was playing hurt for two months!
You have displayed stats in a meaningful way and it has to make me look hard at those stats and understand more of why people would not look at him as injury prone, despite looking at almost 300 days of injuries in his career.
I will say that my knowledge of his being prone to “back spasms” that can appear at any given time – and have! – probably causes me to look unfavorably upon his resilience as well as returning as those 15 day stints on the DL mean trying to find a number 5 starter to take his starts whether or not someone down below is ready. And since it started at the beginning of his year this year, it really compounded our problems!
Nevertheless, as I say, you have made a good case by displaying your facts the way you did.
Bronx Jeers, your post showed the wisdom and integrity of Hal Holbrook’s “Wall Street” character Lou Mannheim. Thank you.
Why does everyone forget Hughes’ game against the Indians in his second start back from the dl last year? Him and Joba combined for a shutout. I don’t care what people say. Unless he’s beaten out of the spot. He deserves a rotation spot.
Judge Prime, I think we may very well be able to settle this outside of court. In fact I think we are on our way to a settlement.
nyfaninlaalaland’s co-counsel, bronx jeers, did an admirable job of presenting their case in the absence of nyfaninlaalaland. I am willing to discuss some kind of settlement. Parties should meet in the morning and then meet in your chambers to update you.
Respectfully,
Trisha Esq.
The back spams during the last two years did not cost Pettitte any starts. All it did was push him to the back of the rotation and instead of being the #2 starter, he started as the #5.
Apr 5, 2008: Missed 4 games (back spasms).
Mar 29, 2008: Back spasms, 15-day DL.
Counselor you are going to have to do a much better job if you are going to be part of this court process! Luckily for you court was adjourned for the day.
“Will they? Don’t know. That could mean we’d only need one other FA SP, though I might prefer we got 2 and let one of our 2 vets go. I hope Wang will be healthy, and I expect Joba will be innings limited again like this season, so others would get a shot as well. As we’ve seen evry season, it takes more than 5 starters. I’d hope Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy, and the others in the system were up to any demands.”
Good starting point for more eventual discourse!
Trisha,
You make a good point as even though Andy has made all his starts this year, he was somewhat injured. Albeit those would never show up as days missed or whatever.
Nick,
Thanks for the Holbrook reference as I felt I have been missing his presence during our darkest hours since the elimination.
Godspeed to you both.
Pettite is also the All Time leader in postseason innings with 218+ and starts with 35. That’s about 1 full season of postseason work.
If he’s not back, he will surely be missed by many.
Pettitte has led the AL in starts twice and the NL one. He was tied for the league this year until Burnett passed him tonight. Doesn’t sound injury prone to me. Clemens in 21 years led the league one time. Jim Palmer led twice, as did Whitey Ford.
Night all.
Trisha: Glad to see the others have been able to convince you.
I’ll bring the donuts – or whatever appropriate fare is desired.
I feel I hadn’t the requisite time to make my case, but thanks to Bronx, all seems settled for now. Hatchets buried, rights to opinions intact. Group hug?
I’m not sure about the group hug; if you read some of the above remarks, I think you’ll forgive me for staying out of hatchet range.
Not one for hugs. Seriously. You don’t hug girls with weapons.
You read their blog posts instead
[yeah, I know, it's so way past my bedtime]
Gee, the Mets suck so bad its a crime that they could be playing on October and the Yanks won’t.
Rebecca – not wait a sec. Don’t get carried away here. I didn’t say I am convinced, rather that I could better see their point when presented with more than their sayso, that thanks to bronx jeers. I am still firm in thinking that I don’t want him back because I no longer consider him effective or reliable but am willing to agree that he has made a lot of starts in many of the years. In other words, I am willing to give the other side their due, just as bronx jeers was expansive enough to give me mine! That’s the genesis of settlement!
As nyfaninlaaland so nicely stated, hachets buried, right to opinions in tact.! That is the alpha and the omega here!
nyfaninlaaland – only those who want to continue to be able to use a hatchet are those who are unwilling to bury it. I on the other hand have no difficulty with a group hug. So the rest of us can consider ourselves embraced. I will continue to watch my back lest a hachet find its way there once again!
All this pressure… read blog posts! Give away Moose Bars! Don’t be nothing more than an uppity cheap shot artist! I can’t do it all at once.
Al, all things being equal, I would like to see the Mets not make the playoffs this year, although my dad likes the Mets. But I’m not sure what I should be rooting for vis-a-vis CC.
Do we want him to make the playoffs with the Brewers and keep throwing innings and keep having fun at the plate and feel like he can pitch just about *any* NL team to the playoffs? Would we like him to miss the playoffs if that made any difference whatsoever in what team he chooses to sign with next year?
Great line by a WFan caller, saying that DeGado hit the Grand Slam with too much time left on the clock, that the Mets should have run more time off the clock.
***DelGado***
“Al, all things being equal, I would like to see the Mets not make the playoffs this year, although my dad likes the Mets. But I’m not sure what I should be rooting for vis-a-vis CC.”
I know Nick its truly a rock and a hard place to be in. I’d still rather have the Mets sit this one out. CC will be fine IMO, the Brewers have already abused his arm as hard as possible under the circumstances whats another 2-3 starts.
Joba
CC (on DL)
Wang
Huges
Moose
Andy
GB – if you’re still with us, a sidebar – sticking with the legal analogies.
Isn’t it interesting how Milwaukee and Toronto are riding CC and AJ into the ground? Seems clear they don’t expect them to return. At least the Crew has the playoff chase as justification. And I guess the Jays were holding out hope of passing the Yanks – it has been a long time since they could say that.
It seems to me the Angels are doing something similar with K-Rod out here. I don’t know how often a closer has been the league leader in appearances, but that’s where he is. Amazing the number of save opps he’s gotten – 23 more than Papelbon, the next AL closer in opps, 30 more than Mo.
And interesting to look at his numbers next to Papelbon’s. Same IP, runs, hits, HR. 1 more K for K-Rod, 2 more ER. Only real differences: BB (K-Rod leads 34 to 7), G’s (K-Rod + 10), saves and save opps.
Mo has 12 less G’s, 2 more IP, 10 less runs, 6 less ER, 13 less H, same K’s, HR’s, HBP’s, 28 less BB (1 less than Pap). Says a lot about the meaning of saves as a stat to me – not much.
K-Rod’s arm might fall off in the playoffs at this rate. But he’s a FA, so they’ll ride him.
I guess in a fantasy scenario, CC hits a homer off of Johan to send the Brewers to the playoffs and then signs with the Yanks.
I think they all go join Bartolo in the DR and get suspended without pay…
Johan, CC, Tex, and AJ.
“I guess in a fantasy scenario, CC hits a homer off of Johan to send the Brewers to the playoffs and then signs with the Yanks.”
I laughed so hard.
NYfan, according to the YES reports, Burnett says he had no intentions of starting on Sundays if he had won tonight, so, I’m guessing the 20 wins don’t mean much to him, and, that would get him a couple million more. This was his career highs in starts, innings pitched, wins, strike outs, hits allowed and 3 walks off his career high. I assume it’s the most pitches he’s thrown, so I can’t blame him on that. I’d think that if the game meant anything, he’d be pitching.
Apparently, though sabathia read his agent the riot act for calling the Brewers front office over the way he’s being used and Sabathia says that he doesn’t care about the innings or three day rotation, he just wants to win. Sabathia’s a horse, so, I don’t know that the work is such a concern with him. Gotta like that attitude, though.
Every pitcher knows his own limit, though. Hard to say who’s right. Rodriguez, though, the dropoff is so drastic in speed, that I’d be somewhat concerned at his age. Flashing lights on him.
GB7,
What did CC tell Hank when he did the same thing his agent did?
The moral of tonights game is that the Yankees should attempt to sign both CC and Burnett or at the bare minimum sign one of the 2. Both K’d 11 and both went deep in the game.
mel
September 25th, 2008 at 3:01 am
GB7,
What did CC tell Hank when he did the same thing his agent did?
____________________________________________________
Sorry, Mel. Haven’t heard that one.
lol, GB7
It wasn’t a knock, knock joke.
But I’ll play along.
CC told Hank, “No worry, beef curry”
The problem with CC (and with Burnett) is the 3500 pitch issue.
I’ve talked about this before, and it seems silly, but I’ll show some detail here, since I failed to deliver the evidence above. There’s less here to consider.
These 2 are the only 2 pitchers in baseball with over 3600 pitches in 2008 to date – Lincecum is close. No one else is over 3500, though a number could pass it with 1 more start, Santana included (Cain, Halladay -tomorrow, Meche, Hamels, Verlander, Volquez also could).
The guy who originally posted this early this year pointed out that pitchers that exceed this mark suffer injury or declining performance within 2 seasons in a high % of cases. The evidence?
Look at 2006 (those here should have demo’d the effect by 2008.
Arroyo, Harang, Zito, Smoltz, Zambrano, Willis, Lackey.
or 2005
Livan Hernandez, Zito, Doug Davis, Capuano, Oswalt, Zambrano, Willis, Noah Lowry
and 2007
Zambrano, Haren, Peavy, Kazmir, Harang, Sabathia, Meche, D. Cabrera
It’s a small group of guys each year. For those in ’06, Arroyo’s performenace tumbled in ’07, Harang’s (also ’07) this year. Zito tumbled in ’07 (he’s in ’05). Smoltz is injured, Lackey missed over a month to start the year, and then there’s Willis of course (also ’05), tumbled last year.
Only Zambrano seems immune, though he’s had some health issues this year, and some of his numbers are trending down.
IN ’05, we add Hernandez’s decline, Lowry injured, Capuano too after ’07 decline, Doug Davis saw an’06decline before his illness (can’t count that of course). Oswalt seems to have slid by largely unaffected
Among ’07′s, Kaz missed month 1 ’08, Cabrera is shut down, but he sucks so whod notice. Peavy missed time this year, still waiting on Haren, Sabathia, and Meche – the latter 2 are repeating in ’08.
I don’t think that’s always the case with the 3500 pitch count, but, I never looked into it. Smoltz and Willis have been ticking time bombs for years because of the way they wrap their arms behind them and then throw across their bodies would be more of an issue. Years ago, Texas had a young hard thrower (Roger Pavlik) that threw like that. He had a great couple of years with a 15 win season and was finished two years later. Lincecum has the same sort of motion, and he doesn’t have size on his side, either. 66 innings in 2006, 177 innings last year and he’ll have 230 this year. If he doesn’t have issues in the next 2-3 years, I’ll be shocked.
NYYFan, please don’t mention Livan Hernandez in any posts. Randy I will be all over this for days talking about the virtues of having him in the rotation.
Randy l. has been widely misunderstood on this issue. He didn’t really want Livan in the rotation, he just wanted to keep him away from the rotisserie.
Nick in SF
September 25th, 2008 at 3:51 am
Randy l. has been widely misunderstood on this issue. He didn’t really want Livan in the rotation, he just wanted to keep him away from the rotisserie.
_____________________________________________________
Correct me if i’m wrong, but, isn’t roasting a person not only immoral but illegal, too?
Sorry, I misread that. I thought it said that Randy wanted him for the rotisserie.
Hopefully we can look forward to a full healthy season of Phil Hughes – both for him and the team
Lot sof notes on tha blog about next year — many show a lack of understanding of the issues facing tis group of Yankees and how to take this group and turn it inot a team for next year and thereafter — I commend Steve Goldman’s Pinstrip Bible Pinstripe blog as a way to begin
and he does not trash Jeter’s aging D at SS
also posted at RAB
http://web.yesnetwork.com/news.....038;vkey=5
Obviously, Phil had stuff that was good enough to be rated the #1 pitching prospect in baseball,TD, but his makeup was still a huge part of it as well. Talent isn’t everything; some guys fall apart in big situations, some guys don’t know how to handle being a leader of their staff, some guys aren’t willing to work at their craft to develop their talent and potential. That’s all I’m saying.
I was very impressed with Phil last night. Two of the rare breed of knuckle-curveballers going at it, and Hughes curve looked on par with what Burnett had. Solid pitching by both pitchers; I was particularly impressed with how Phil commanded both sides of the plate and threw his curve for consistent strikes, which accounted for his low pitch count.
Mets and yanks should play 7 games for city championship during ws. It would receive more viewers.
really, all it took was hughes to throw a couple decent innings and everyones back on the franchise hype. hate to remind everyone, but phil has a well established track record….
July 2004 – Elbow stiffness.
August 2004 – Broken toe.
June 2005 – Shoulder tendinitis.
May 2007 – Hamstring.
May 2007 – Suffers a grade 3 ankle sprain during rehab.
May 2008 – Stress fracture to his rib.
test