Today in The Journal News
-
- September
- 24
The Yankees won then found out their season was essentially over as they were eliminated from the postseason. But at least Mike Mussina has a goal to reach.
Brandon Steiner is a genius. He’s making money on selling dirt and has been since 1993. Jake Thomases has the story.
——————
Yanks-Jays tonight at 7:07 p.m. It’ll be Phil Hughes (0-4, 7.96) vs. wanna-be Yankee A.J. Burnett (18-10, 4.18).
This entry was posted
on Wednesday, September 24th, 2008 at 2:46 am by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Share and Enjoy: 
| 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Advertisement
Peter Abraham
Goal for tonight: get Phil’s ERA below 7.00!
Hey, Nick! He completely skipped the 80’s.
Oh wait, we’re talking ERA’s?
Go, Phil. Come, AJ.
Oops. Jamming to “American Pie”. ‘twas me.
Moose deserves 20 W’s. We just can’t let him retire after he achieves that high note.
Not making the postseason sucks – but I guess I can take it every other decade or so. Just continue to fill the farm system with talent (more position players would be nice), augment with CC and other free agents and we will be back where we belong.
Pete,
If you’re going to get on Girardi for being less than truthful with you than how about doing the same with Cashman? Today, I see that PinstripesPlus.com has posted a picture of Erickson Lianora from Venezuela and that they also met him in Tampa where he’s attending Instructs with many of the Yankee top prospects. That’s the same 16 year old prospect that Cashman denied signing last month.
It’s great to see Steiner doing so well, very nice guy.
Poor Mussina getting hurt like that. They shouldn’t let Palin bat!
Top 3 Reasons they missed the playoffs:
1) Wang
2) Hitting w/ RISP
3) Posada
....
I hope Mike is able to get his elbow in shape so he can try for 20 wins on Sunday. What a shame it would be if he can’t go out there and at least try. He would have had at least 20 if not for Mo blowing the save in Minni or him l osing a 2-1 game.
This is why wins and loses can’t be a huge factor in determining if someone should make the hall.
While Mike may never have a 20 win season, as it was pointed out in the article he was in line for 20 when Armando (i’ve never met a big game I didn’t blow) blew 20 for him, he had the strike shortened season, he had 18 a few times, and now at least 19 a few times.
Juding by many of the artlces that are being written about how many x win season he has had, he might have a chance to make it.
I think the “Who’s the blame” stuff can be boiled down to one word…...Everybody.
You win and lose as a team. Its not one move or non-move, one player, one manager, or one anything that caused this season. Its everybody.
Once you start pointing fingers at one person, you can forget fixing the problem. It just creates more problems.
Many of the issues facing this team have been brewing for years. Unfortunately, from ownership, to the players, the fan base and (many) members of the media, they were ignored.
Denial is not a river in Africa. Franchies in sports that live in denial usually find themselves in a pickle. For the last 5 years, too many people in the organization lived in denial about what was happening with the team.
It can’t just be about winning “now”. You have to operate within a parallel universe. Try to win AND develop players within your system at the same time. That’s only been happening with the Yankees for the last 2 1/2 years. This, after about a 7 year “vacation” in operating the franchise in an intelligent fashion.
To that end, expecting immediate results from young players isn’t very realistic.
One person who hasn’t been in denial is Cashman. Unfortunately, you can’t be a Lone Ranger when it comes to fixing a franchise. It takes more people. That’s an area the Yankees desperately need to address this off-season.
One good thing about not making the playoffs? The whole attitude that the organization (at least some members of it), players, fans and media have that the playoffs are somehow the birthright of the Yankees is broken.
The playoffs aren’t a birthright. You have to earn your way in and this team didn’t do it. They don’t deserve to go to the playoffs this year.
You never fix things in sports until you hit the floor. Losing in the first round of the playoffs is NOT the floor. Not making the playoffs IS the floor. It will now be easier to fix things because because fallacy (the Yankees never miss the playoffs) has been broken.
I expect to see a lot of changes in the off-season and a MUCH hungrier team that reports to Spring Training on February 14.
The way I see it, you can handle this one of two ways. Whine about it all winter and call for mass firings that won’t happen. Or, you fix it.
I prefer the latter although I know most fans and members of the media (especially those that don’t cover the team on a daily basis) will choose the former.
When the dust settles this year, they will be a team that fall between 5-7 games out of a playoff spot. Not exactly awful.
They just have to make SMART baseball decisions from the top down and not panic decisions.
If they do that, they will be fine.
http://seankenney.com/portfolio/yankee_stadium_preview/
Yankee Stadium made out of legos!!
He isn’t alone. It’s no secret that Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston isn’t a fan of Mussina, and that’s putting it lightly. Earlier this season, when asked about Mussina—tonight’s starter for the Yankees—Gaston said, “Mike Mussina can kiss my [posterior], and you can tell him I said that,”
Today, when told that Mussina might never win 20 games in a season if Toronto won tonight’s game, Gaston smiled and said, “Man, I wish I was playing.” There were laughs all around as Cito left the dugout. Gaston’s dislike of Mussina dates back to the 1993 All-Star Game in Baltimore, when the manager didn’t use the pitcher in his home city.
In the ninth inning, Mussina began to warm up in the bullpen—without the go-ahead from Gaston—and he later claimed that he was simply throwing a side session in preparation for his next start. That was his story, but it was thought by some to be Mussina’s way of trying to force his way into the game. Gaston instead used Toronto’s Duane Ward to finish off the AL’s win.
Wow what a *** The Jays manager is. I hope the Jays never win another game all season!
http://mlbastian.mlblogs.com/
Cito may not like him but, Moose kicked his teams butt last night, despite taking that liner off his elbow! lol
To finally get a 20-win season on the verge of turning 40 is pretty remarkable. But let’s not get too hung up on the ones that got away. Mussina’s also picked up his share of wins when he didn’t pitch well.. 5 innings, 4 runs (7.20 ERA) vs Seattle, 5 inings 3 runs (5.40 ERA) vs Cleveland.
It was sorta ridiculous listening to YES last night as they tried to make the point that if Mussina doesn’t retire it’s only to win 300 and thus must be a 3-year commitment. Maybe he just wants to go year-to-year. Maybe he just wants to play on more season so his career ends in the post-season.
The sports memorabilia business is such a scam. At the same time anybody stupid enough to buy dirt….
It is a shame that Mike got hit last night. He looked brilliant. Lots of looking third strikes. His pitches had great movement on them. The batters were totally lost. Probably would have been able to go 8 maybe 9 innings.
I think Moose would have no problems going year to year with the Yankees. Same for Pettitte.
Both guys are smart enough to know they aren’t getting multi-year offers from the Yankees this off-season.
Both guys have made over 100 million dollars each in the game. At this point, money becomes more an issue of not embarrassing them with a lowball offer than getting every last crumb on the table.
They also are at the point in their careers where they would retire rather than starting over somewhere else.
The issue for the Yankees is, do you bring both back, one back, neither back?
How they make out in free agency (in terms of whichever pitcher(s) they sign) will determine what they do with Moose and Andy.
Who is to blame? A season gone awry?
This team is going to finish 15-20 games over .500 and have the same or better record that 3 division winners and the NL wild card winner.
They play in the toughest division in baseball, had the worst luck with injuries, were breaking kids into the rotation, dealing with new clubhouse chemistry, muddling through with an on again/off again bullpen and relying on Rasner and Ponson since mid-July.
I’ve seem posts regarding unquantifiable ‘ifs’ (Johan Santana), then I’ll throw in that ‘if’ the Rays hadn’t come of age this season, the Yankees would be in the playoffs again with this same failure of a team.
We would be celebrating another post-season for the Yankees and praising the organization for doing a great job, working through the injuries, dealing with a patchwork rotation, overcoming the struggles of bullpen and warming up to a new manager.
Instead we need finger pointing for a failed season? Why, because the Yankee fan playoff or bust birthright wasn’t fulfilled this year?
Sometimes I can understand why fans in Pittsburgh and Kansas City hate Yankee fans.
I agree. the good thing for th Yankees is I doubt either guy wants to pitch elsewhere, though a Houston redeux might be possible for Pettite.
Another key is what’s the organizational plan for Joba. If they are putting him in rotation from day one than it’s Mussina OR Pettite… IF Joba is in the pen, then I say give each a one-year deal and try to add CC, Perez or AJ.
Bullpen depth can then be used as trade chips.
Johnathon all great points!!!
There’s no real point in playing anybody not in the scope of 2009 plans for the rest of the schedule.
This would apply to Giambi, I-Rod, Betemit, Britton, Ponson, Rasner, and Melky Cabrera.
For all the people hankering for Jeter to make a statement here it is, and as predicted it came AFTER the team has been mathematically eliminated, as it should be:
“It basically boils down to we weren’t good enough,” Derek Jeter said. “That’s the only way you can put it. Our team didn’t play well enough the whole season in order to get to where we need to be. It’s a huge disappointment.”
“This team is going to finish 15-20 games over .500 and have the same or better record that 3 division winners and the NL wild card winner.”
They’ve been dead in the water for close to a month. Their season was toast when they lost to Wakefield and Byrd on back to back nights at the Stadium over August 26th and 27th. It would be crazy to be fooled by the 9-1 they’ve posted in what amounted to exhibition games over the last 10-11 days. The heat was off. Doesn’t matter how they finish. Matters where they finish. And the 2008 New York Yankees are going to finish exactly where they deserve to.
The Joba decision is really going to have a domino effect on all of the pitching decisions in the off-season.
If they keep Joba in the ‘pen, you have a bullpen of Mo, Joba, Melancon, Bruney, Coke, Marte and a long man.
That’s the best bullpen in baseball.
If you bring back Moose and Pettitte, and add Wang to the mix, you have room for at least one free agent signee. The kid pitchers can battle it out for the fifth spot in the rotation.
They would only have one pitcher (the free agent acquisition) under a long term contract. That gives them contract flexibility.
If you decide to go for it and add two FA starters, it gives them trade options among their young pitchers to find an everyday first baseman or CF.
Obviously, Joba’s health will dictate the decision. However, its awfully tempting to leave him where he is because IMO, it will make rebuilding the team a little easier.
Anyone else share my feeling that Brandon Steiner is a low life?
i just dont think id bring back Moose or Pettitte as my first option. if you come back and settle on them, you couldve have worse.
but locking up Moose and Pettitte for 2009 is a gamble to me.
“Top 3 Reasons they missed the playoffs:
1) Wang
2) Hitting w/ RISP
3) Posada
”
REAL Top 3 Reasons
1) Underperformances from a ton of players
2) Expecting three young pitchers under the age of 24 to lead you to the postseason.
3) Not putting Joba in the rotation to start the year.
The cost of a free agent pitcher will be through the roof this year and somehow I just don’t think the Yankees will be in the CC sweepstakes.
I mean, they’ll be there but not fully invested. I see SJ’s 1st plan Pettitte, Mussina, Wang, FA and Hughes as the most likely scenario. But that mean you are looking/paying for a number 3/4 starter. Penny, Lowe or (gasp!) Oliver Perez.
On the other end…I think they make a huge push for Teixeira…that guy is going to get paid this winter. With the Red Sox, Yankees and Mets all looking for 1st base help…Yikes…back up the brinks truck for Mr. T.
But I think the Yankees will stick to the plan when it comes to pitching…promote from with in and develop young arms. Don’t have another Pavano contract on your hands.
“it gives them trade options among their young pitchers to find an everyday first baseman or CF”
SJ:
Realistically, does anyone besides Hughes bring back an a good young everyday outfielder or firstbaseman??? I can’t see who?
So now we have to suffer through another offseason of debating Joba as a starter vs Joba as a reliever? Oh joy.
I heard some talk last week about the Yankees considering giving Joba some time in a fall league or in the instructional league so he can get more innings. Does anyone have some updates on this? I like the idea only if Joba is 100% healthy. I’m not sure thats the case considering his velocity is down by about 3 mph since returning.
The Yankees MUST sign Sabathia IMO. It is also very important they retain Mussina. I’m not so sure about Pettitte, his shoulder is a big question. I’d like to see Joba in the rotation for a full season. Hughes has proven he can dominate AAA but I’d like him to start the season there anyways so he can work on his third and fourth pitches.
Hughes for Colby Rasmus. yeah, i said it.
I agree about Teixeira. He should be the highest priority. I know Sheets is high risk, but he is a quality pitcher and maybe they could get him for less than CC or AJ.
SJ—
Your point about Joba in the bullpen. Does that mean you have changed your mind about him re he should be a starter?? That would be a big turnaround for you. ANd if that is the case is that decision based on his health issues or the idea that having him in the bullpen with the others make the Yankees the best BP in the league as well as giing them some flexibility with the FA market?
“I know Sheets is high risk, but he is a quality pitcher and maybe they could get him for less than CC or AJ.”
especially with his latest injury, he’s definitely high risk/high reward… but you can get him for less money and less commitment than AJ (who might not actually make it the the open market) or Sabathia.
its kind of an out of the box move that Cashman would get railed for when he makes it, not get credit for if it pans out, and get run out of town it it were to fail.
but i think it might be worth the gamble.
The biggest reason the Yanks missed the playoffs is because they had no bench or farm system from which to replace injured starters.
Boston didn’t have quite as many injuries, but they were able to replace players like Ortiz and Lugo with players who produced.
Boston was able to trade for Bey and Byrd, while we got Nady and Ponson.
Hungry had nothing to do with it. Injuries, awful years from Cano and Cabrera, no decent back-up catcher, nobody to replace Cano or Cabrera, years of draft mismanagement and loss of draft picks because of signings like Pavano’s.
Fredo,
That’s who I am talking about. A package centering around Hughes brings you back significant assets. He still has a very solid rep among talent evaluators in the game.
I’m saying, “trade him”. I am saying, depending on a couple of things, its an option that could be explored.
For that to happen, a couple of things have to play out:
1. Signing 1 or 2 FA starting pitchers.
2. Andrew Brackman’s development.
If Brackman comes on, he’s a big (not just in size but in talent) asset. That gives them the luxury of having some options they didn’t possess a year ago.
I don’t think you can deal Hughes unless you feel VERY confident on both the above issues.
If you do, it opens the door for some intriguing possibilities.
Jonathan:
Don’t see Boston in the Teixeira thing. Youkilis plays a pretty decent 1st base and can hit. They may move him to 3rd when Lowell’s time is up so that one of their young guys, Lars Anderson, a high end 1B prospect who has more than held his own in HiA/AA this year, can take over in 2010. I think that’ll keep them out of it on Teixeira. I’d be concerned about the Mets, Angels and perhaps Orioles.
I meant to say, “I’m NOT saying, “trade him”.
We need an edit button in 2009! lol
Drew i dont think he is a low life by any means he is a very smart business man that is for sure. HOwever he was hosting a radio show on ESPN 1050 when i was on my way to the stadium on Sunday and it realy bothered me as he had these people on to talk about the stadium while atthe same time he was hocking his goods so to speak. That to me was a bit cheesy and when he talked about the new stadium all he kept talking about was how the new luxary boxes were going to be great not sure he connects with the every day fan so tp speak lol.
Teixeira is going to resign with the Angels. i can almost see that as an inevitability right now. they need a first baseman, because they trade their 1B of the future to get Tex, and they have the owner willing to pay to keep a big name.
but i think Tex needs to be looked at by the Yankees.
sj-
this offseason with all the contracts coming off the books, the yankees have a once in an era opportunity to reconfigure the team.
from peter drucker: ” Plans are only good intentions unless they immediately degenerate into hard work.”
this fits into your belief that cashman’s plan is fine, but that it wasn’t executed properly.
the problem is that i believe cashman himself blocks good people coming into the organization. name one young hot shot gm prospect he’s hired as an asst gm to delegate work too. cashman is so obsessed with control, he doesn’t hire enough really talented people to get the job done.
how do the yankees get talented management people into the organization when cashman fears they will take his job or give an opinion he doesn’t want to hear ?
i think he has to go because of this inability to delegate to cutting edge young management . it is a really serious flaw.
Off-topic: But does anyone know what’s up with the Rangers Lohud blog? I hope it’s just a temporary / technical glitch?
I will admit that it is getting annoying watching the Yankees not have any position players to bring up year after year.
Boston has brought up a player in the last few seasons for every infield position (Youk and Lowery have both played third).
Meanwhile, the Yankees have thier outfield prospects, and some strong catching prospects, but no infield prospects? That’s just not good…
Gayle,
Its all about health with Joba.
Its great to want him in the rotation. But, if his health doesn’t allow him to do it, or he can’t do it until 2010 (for innings/health reasons), then you have to explore other options.
In a perfect world, I’d want him in the rotation for 30 starts a year. However, the world ain’t perfect.
Fact is, he broke down this year, missed 5 weeks, and that’s pretty much the season.
Since his return, his velocity is down about 5 MPH. He’s still very effective because he’s a terrific young pitcher. But, the velocity is down. That’s a concern.
The goal should be to have a healthy Joba Chamberlain for a full season. How that is accomplished is up for debate now, given his health.
I know folks will say, “its just tendinitis”. Whatever it was, it kept him out of the lineup for the most important stretch of the season. That can’t happen again next season.
If I was the Yankees, I’d take that under consideration when determining his role on the team for 2009.
One last thing on Joba…..
If he is getting tendinitis after less than 100 innings of work, what makes folks think he can stay healthy for the 150+ innings he will have to handle as a starter?
I’d love for him to be in the rotation. However, to do so, you have to be able to take the ball.
That’s an issue with Joba and has been since his college days.
That’s why, how the Yankees handle Joba will have a domino effect on every pitching decision they make this off-season.
Randy,
Its hard to say whether its Cashman, Levine or the Steinbrenners that have held back on hiring more capable people on the baseball side.
You never really get straight answers from people when that question is posed.
If Cashman comes back, it will be interesting to see if they add people to the mix. Some very interesting names are out there.
A few observations:
1. Every FA starting pitcher has substantial question marks, given the commitment it will take to sign them. Sabathia will cost 20+ million for at least five, probably more, years, and he has been worked very hard. Sheets and Burnett have injury and durability issues. The Yanks probably have to gamble and sign one of them, but it is a gamble, and it may backfire. Signing two will absorb a significant chunk of Yankee disposable FA dollars, and will just increase the gamble. The lesser free agent pitchers have question marks too.
2. Joba must start. No way anything else gets us to the playoffs. If he gets injured he gets injured (no one can tell you that an injury is likely anyway, there’s no medical diagnosis as to can pitch 70, can’t pitch 200), but 70 innings doesn’t cut it.
3. The Yanks must set aside enough $$ to be the top bidder on Tex. If we don’t get him no way the offense can be fixed next year.
4. I’d hold on to Hughes. I’d trade any other minor league pitcher or pitchers for a minor league hitter or for a little upgrade in the OF.
5. I wouldn’t bet too much on Andrew Brackman being useful anytime soon.
6. Bad time to trade Cano.
you need to start Joba in Scranton to start the season. limit his innings per start, and have him ready for mid-May at the big league level.
if he runs himself down again, gets another arm injury, you bring him back in the pen to finish the season and figure on him out of the pen for 2010.
but you have to give him a chance to prove his health again before you stick him in the pen… and you cant transition him from bullpen to rotation again, because then you’ll have questions about whether it was the transition that affected his health or if he has structural liabilities, which is what we are trying to sort thru now.
“Top 3 Reasons they missed the playoffs:
1) Wang
2) Hitting w/ RISP
3) Posada
REAL Top 3 Reasons
1a) Underperformances from a ton of players
2a) Expecting three young pitchers under the age of 24 to lead you to the postseason.
3a) Not putting Joba in the rotation to start the year.”—————————————————————————————-
1a) Yup, Jeter for 3/4rds of the year, Cano and Melky for the entire year
2a) Phil and IPK were NOT expected to LEAD us to the PS. Had they been a LEAGUE AVERAGE #4 and #5, we would be up there with Boston.
3a) Joba was on a 140 IP limit. At about 6 IP per game (which stresses the BP), that’s about 3/4 of the season. 1/2 the season as a stud 8th inning guy and 1/2 the season as a starter was a better use of his IP, ESPECIALLY since we thought we had 5 other reasonable starters.
And how about (4)? Two of the three BEST teams (aside from the Yanks) in MLB in our division. Where would the Yankees be if TB was to win 84 games this year? We would have a 1 games LEAD in the WC.
You can try to pick the TOP reasons, but we could have survived any few of these issues. It was the confluense of ALL the issues together, not any 1 or 2, that beat us.
Give TB 84 Wins for the season, we are the WC.
Give 6 Wins (3 each) to IPK and PHil…. WC
Give Giambi and ARod the SAME RISP as this years OPS… 4 more wins
Add Posada/Matsui to the lineup… 4-6 more Wins
Add an injury free Joba to the lineup… 2 more Wins
Give Melky and Cano their expected OPS… 2-4 more Wins
Give Jeter his career average numbers… 2 more Wins
Get reasonable production from Shelly, Ensberg and the rest of our bench… 2 more Wins
Folks… no one expected this many things to go wrong. Odds are strong a few will happen. But it was just horrible luck that ALL these things happened.
RCNB. Random Chaotic Nature of Baseball.
The 1969 Mets
The 2004 ALCS
The 2008 Rays
The 2008 Yankees
Ain’t life strange?
SJ and Randy
You both make good points re other baseball people in the organization. I would like Cashman to return but as Randy said what are exactly the good baseball people he has brought to the organization to surround himself with. I know Oppenheimer (was that his hire as well a Newman) but assistant GM’s I am sure Jean Afterman is a good person and all but is she really a baseball person or is she a business person. I know she was at one point heavily ionvolved in the Asian market and I think was involved with the Matsui signing (a good one) as well as the Igawa signing (not so good). Dont know much about the other assistant GM’s thathe works with.
The first thing the need to do is settle the GM situation quickly. Don’t drag it out like with Torre last year, that was total BS. Deciding what to do with Joba is a big decision, that needs to be decided on soon, because if Joba is starting he will probably have to pitch in the fall league to get his innings up. I think the Yanks are going to cut ties with Andy Pettitte again.
He’s a pitcher who relies on a cut fastball, who’s had elbow problems in the past, used performance enhancing drugs to try and heal his injury, and has had durability issues this season. Maybe he can bounce back next year, maybe he’s just 37. What kind of money does he want for a one year deal? What are the alternatives? Wang will be back, there will be at least one free agent starter signed, maybe a trade. You have Hughes, Aceves, and Coke waiting in the wings. Moose on the other hand deserves to come back next year, if he wants to. I think alot of the rotation next year hinges on Joba. You have Wang and a potential FA at the top, Joba, and say Mussina, for the 5 spot you can have some of the kids shoot it out.
Off topic:
Plaxico Burress just doesn’t get it. What an asshat.
Drew- YES!!! I find it laughable when he says Oh I hope I get the honor of selling YS memorabilia. Yeah BS you see $$$ and lots of them. Has anyone ever listened to his radio show? Enough to make you SICK!
SJ and I completely agree on the Joba situation, so we must be right! lol
I was bothered watching Joba last night because he threw 75 % sliders and that should NEVER happen.
Sheets is just WAY too risky, plus the scuttlebutt is he’s warm weather bound.
Heard Teixiera interviewed a week or so ago and made a point of saying that he and his wife, “don’t know anyone out here. Our roots are in the East”. I believe the Yanks have a great shot at him. Give me Tex, CC and a return to health for Posada, Wang and Matsui and the Yanks will be able to put together a tremendous team in ‘09.
DMan… you are right about the imbalance of prospects in the system. Send a big Thank You to the Tampa Mafia for that. Last year’s draft was the Yanks’ best for position players who dropped because of signability concerns… but it’ll be 3-4 years before that’ll pay off
Who knows what he did, but he should be happy since he just got that contract extension. Wasn’t Moss just looking for more playing time. That’s the beauty of the Giants, they draft well, and have a lot of hungry players looking to come up and make an impact. I’m sure Smith will also like a shot at being a go to guy.
86,
Yeah Tex is an East coast guy. He played for GA Tech, but there’s no way the Braves pony up the dough for him. The Yanks have to be out front to sign him, but they better watch their back with the Mets. Delgado’s contract is up, and they’ll have money coming off the books. The Yanks have to target CC & Tex, and strike fast.
TurnTwo, I am not convinced that Teixeira will sign with the Angels. He is from the East Coast and that will have some play in where he will want to call “home”.
The Angels have a lot of decisions to make this year on what guys they will keep. K-Rod is a big one. The Angels still have talent in the minors that could take care of 1st base, even though not as good as who they gave for Teixeira.
I wouldn’t count the Yankees out of the bidding for either CC or Teixeira, it all depends on the needs that the FO sees and figures on how to fix.
“TurnTwo, I am not convinced that Teixeira will sign with the Angels. He is from the East Coast and that will have some play in where he will want to call “homeâ€.”
Using this logic, what makes anyone think CC, who calls the other coast his home, will want to be here????
I agree with Wave Your Hat’s 9:55 note. The only reason to seriously consider leaving Joba in the pen is if you think Mo will be done in a year or 2 and Joba can slide into that position.
One good thing about going through a roller-coaster relatively disappointing season is that when the end comes, it isn’t like one of those hideous, staggering gutchecks. We all knew that this last week was a long shot.
Still I am impressed that we managed to end up where we were, still playing for a possible something the last week of the season. That’s not bad. We all know that the season was lost for a variety of reasons and that curing any one area may not have made the entire difference or enough of a difference. A little bit of many things made a huge difference.
I was very impressed with Jonathon’s post. I agree with all of your points Jonathon.
Next year we’ll get it together much better. If this does anything, it serves as a huge wake up call for the Yankees and may just get them back on the track to playing hard from day one and not taking anything for granted. Maybe we’re going to see fire in the bellies once again. I truly believe it will happen. And that’s what the Yankees need to be about from day one to insure that there is at least a day 163!
GO YANKEES 2009!!! Bring Bobby and Moose back. Anything else to me is fine and gravy.
Oh yeah – GO ANGELS, RAYS, WINNER OF AL CENTRAL, AND ANY NL TEAM TO FACE THE SUX!!!
“Realistically, does anyone besides Hughes bring back an a good young everyday outfielder or firstbaseman??? I can’t see who?”
Perhaps you missed the mighty assemblage of Karstens, Ohlendorf, Tabata and some guy I can’t remember bringing us Nady and Marte. You don’t know what is available in the market until deals get done.
It is frustrating as an armchair gm – but true. Deals get made for any number of reasons competitive or financial and we’ll just have to see what Cashman or his replacement turn up.
Braintrust, I think if the Mets are fighting the Yankees with regard to signing Teixeira and even CC, the Yankees will not let them win either battle.
After the Mets getting Santana, the Yankees will be playing a bit of one-up-manship on the lowly Mets.
Unless there is a major concern over health of them after their physical, of course.
“Using this logic, what makes anyone think CC, who calls the other coast his home, will want to be here????” Money, money, and his best friend is LeBron James.
I don’t think the Red Sox are going to get past the Angels. The Angels are probably the team to beat this year.
The Cubs are on a mission, and I would like to see them win it all now that the Yankees are done.
I would be leary of a rotation next year that features both Moose and Pettitte. They are both a year older and Andy showed signs of slowing down this year. And for as good as Moose has been this year, at 40 can he keep it up another year? If I were the Yanks I would bring Mussina back on a 1 year deal, but not Andy.
Fran I agree. I guess it wouldn’t all be fine and gravy. I too don’t think that bringing back Andy is a good idea.
Maybe Andy can be set up with a half year type deal, he might be great to have as a “back up” for a SP going down like they usually do.
It will be time to get creative and agressive in getting better SP. That has been the real weakness the Yankees have had over the past 5 years.
As the season has ended after last night here are a couple of thoughts and I wonder what other people think as well.
I like Girardi taking responsibility and I hope he learned a lesson that ALL the games count and mean something. Those games he threw away in April and May matter. Get a lead early in the season, and you can rest guys once you are set.
The Non trade for Santana hurt big time, I thought it was ironic that Santana was keeping the Mets afloat last night against the best team in the NL the same night our season ended.
I hope Cashman can get two high level starters to go with Wang, and then hopefully resign Mussina as the # 5
I hope they resign Abreu as I think it will very hard to replace his offense
I think they should let Petitte go.
I tihnk you’ll see the Yankees re-tool how they begin the season this year.
They know they can’t get off to a slow start for the third year in a row. They can’t be at or below .500 again after the first month or 2 of the season.
Too cool:
http://seankenney.com/portfolio/yankee_stadium_preview/
or maybe just too much time on his hands!
The Daily News has a ‘keep him or dump him’ poll where 5% of respondents actually say dump Joba Chamberlain.
Who knew that the number of morons was actually that low?
I’d be very surprised not to Joba in the starting rotation next year. Very surprised.
If a panel of doctors examine him and say that he just can’t start – well that would be one thing. But outside of that happening he’ll be in he rotation. And I’ve never heard of a pitcher who doctor’s definitively decided just could not start.
The yankees this year as a team were at their best when Joba was starting. That 1-0 game he threw against Beckett was probably the best win of the season.
There’s been a lot of disappointment this – but the one area that’s far exceeded expectations in the bull pen. It’s performed well, is very deep, and there are several young arms in the majors who will likely contribute next year.
With or without Joba the yankees will have a dominant bull pen next year. With Joba it’s just ridiculous.
But is that the best use of your talent?
If nothing else numbers and need dictate that Joba will be in the rotation unless there is an extreme hazard to his health (and a mild case of tendinitis is not an extreme hazard – it’s part of the life as a pitcher).
They have a plethora of power arms in the pen as it is. And they have a desperate need for starting pitching. That spread in strength dictates taking some additional risk because the potential gain is enormous. So unless its a complete contraindication, he needs to be in the rotation.
Alot has been made of Joba not throwing as hard out of the pen since he’s come back. I don’t see that. When joba was starting he was sitting 94-97. That’s roughly what he’s throwing now out of the pen – he’s been around 94-95. This time around in the pen Joba’s been throwing his fastball like he was as a starter. He’s just not pumping as much extra effort to sit 97-99 as he was before. I don’t think that’s a health issue at all. If are having problems with your arm you’re not throwing 95 and not throwing as many sliders as he has been (the pitch he keeps falling in love with out of the pen).
We’ll see but I think too much is being made out of his shoulder. He’s looked fine out of the pen.
Check that – 17% want to keep Carl Pavano.
Joba has to start. He’s a force.
Great points CB –
It is interesting to watch what all of the young arms are doing in Minnesota. They are really limping to the finish line.
One thing that is going to be difficult to manage is utilizing Joba’s starts as if he is the 5th starter, even when his performance will likely be dramatically better than that. How do you skip him in the rotation when you have an off day when he is pitching at a higher level that a Rasner, Ponson, or other back of the rotation type.
That said, it is what I would do. I’d use him as a starter and try like heck to keep his inning count under control.
“Realistically, does anyone besides Hughes bring back an a good young everyday outfielder or firstbaseman??? I can’t see who?”
Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez, Bruney, and Dave Robertson. Individually they wouldn’t, but if you a package of Veras, Ramirez and two minor leaguers would bring back a good player – not great but good.
Teams are always looking for relievers. And some of the most imbalanced trades are made by teams who overpay for middle relief arms.
Many of the yanks arms decreased their trade value this year. But Veras and Ramirez showed they could be above average relievers. Bruney’s shown a glimpse. Roberstson showed he could miss major league bats.
I also wonder if a mediocre to bad team would be interested in seeing if Veras could be their closer. There are many closers in baseball who don’t have his stuff.
The yankees have strength in this area. They should strongly consider trading some combination of Veras/ Ramirez/ Bruney/ Robertson for younger bats.
If you sign two top FA starters and re-sign Abreu, you will spend about 75% of the $80 million coming off the books.
That doesn’t leave much for Tex. If you sign Tex, you have now increased your payroll and nothing left to fix the problems in CF and the bench. If you don’t sign Tex, there’s no way to replace the loss of Giambi’s production. You might even end up with Giambi again.
I like Abreu, even though I don’t like his defense. I’d consider offering him a rich deal to sign him for one year. If he won’t sign a one year deal, let him go.
To do all that, I’d prefer to only sign one FA starter, put Joba in the rotation and cross my fingers for luck (CB your post is right on target), let Andy go (it hurts to say that) and hope Hughes or some combiation of pitchers can hold down the #5 starter slot.
That way, you’ve got some money left to be the top bidder on Tex and still try to sign some helpful role players.
CB:
Unless those were really good minor leaguers, Veras and Edwar don’t even get you good. Dime a dozen relievers, those two are.
“TKinDC
September 24th, 2008 at 10:36 am
The Daily News has a ‘keep him or dump him’ poll where 5% of respondents actually say dump Joba Chamberlain.
Who knew that the number of morons was actually that low?”
Thats probably all from the Mets and Red Sox fans. No Yankee fan is going to be THAT stupid.
Fredo,
I was thinking more along the lines of very good minor leaguers/ young players transitioning to the majors. They would never get you a guy like Brad Hawpe.
But under certain circumstances I do think they would bring back something of value if packaged together. Something like a 4 for 1 deal.
I may be completely wrong and misreading the market. But look what happens every year in both the free agent and trade markets.
The players that arguably get the most inflated contracts are relief pitchers. Look at what Scott Linebrink got last year. Ron Mahay, etc. It happens every year. Same thing with trades.
Take a team like the Brewers. If they don’t make the playoffs the bull pen is a huge reason. They are just awful. They’re paying Gagne $11 M this year for what? Saloman Torres, David Riske, Guillermo Motta?
Veras and Ramirez are arguably much better and much cheaper than any of those guys.
Perhaps I’m wrong – but teams are generally desperate for relief pitching, especially cheap relief pitching. I think the yankee middle relievers packaged together have some value. Again, not an all star but a player they could use.
I have very very very high expectations for the yankees next season. For whatever reason or not, I just have a feeling that they will have a great season
I’m thinking missing playoffs will turn out to be a good thing. Our last 2 first round eliminations showed we were a flawed team vis a vis the elite teams, but there was not enough sense of urgency to overhaul because we DID make the PS. Our failure to do so this year should provide the incentive to fix our team. There will also be more room to move with more big contracts expiring this year.
Kudos to Moose for reinventing himself & finally pitching inside & keeping hitters from leaning out & pounding his away stuff. One of the best winning %s of all times, he deserves to get # 20 at long last.
Kudos to Girardi for finally not allowing other teams to plunk our batters with impunity. Too bad he allowed this team to continue to have undisciplined, unproductive ABs with RISP all season. Not getting timely hits is one thing, but not making sure you at least advanced someone when making an out while our opponents were doing so, is inexcusable. Face it, this team played FUNDEMANTALLY poor baseball all year. Bad baserunning, poor communication in the field, bad fielding (in spite of the #s), lack of range, inability to sacrifice, bad decisions by veteran players who should know better, were all a common theme, unlike past teams. Girardi must nip that nonsense in the bud next year, no matter who it embarrasses.
We still had a chance in spite of the perfect storm of key injuries had we just played SOUND Yankee baseball. Do not underestimate how much Derek’s FIRST HBP on his hand hastened our demise. He probably had no business being in the lineup for at least a month, & he struggled mightily & his highly paid mates could not pick up the slack.
Since I’ve been a huge fan since mid-1950s I’ve seen many consecutive years were Yanks were horrible so I don’t necessarily have the sense of entitlement that many fans have developed over this past 13 year run. What we’ve done is truly amazing, & the handwriting has been on the wall that our run would end, as all things in LIFE must.
Time for change and another run. This year’s team was painful to watch, far too often, & I welcome the future. Go Yankees. Hope Cashman re-ups, & JOBA stays healthy & in the PEN for the next 15 years. I just don’t see him staying healthy as a starter, as my biggest fear seemed to play out this year with his tendinitis. Just my strong gut feeling.
This will be an eventful & crucial off-season, & fun too watch as well. BEWARE of LONG TERM contracts for starting pitchers, which is our trademark & most common failure going back to the days of Don Gullet. We so rarely get value with the most FRAGILE of all assets!
Go Yankees.
There’s no question Joba that he should be a starter. Aces are harder to find than dominant setup guys whom you really only use when you’re leading anyway.
I think (hope) that the tendinitis is due to the switch from the bullpen to the rotation. And, hopefully, they don’t repeat their mistake.
By now, Joba & the Yankees may have talked and let’s hope they came to the right conclusion.
Joba needs to get back on track and do what he’s done for most of his career. Prepare to start in the spring.
Hey guys, I have a question about the draft / signing free agents. In Olney’s article he said that if the Yankees sign a bunch of free agents, they will lose their first and second round draft picks. I thought that no matter how many type A free agents you signed, you still only lose one draft pick? How could they lose both their first round and second round picks? Would that only happen if they signed one or more type A free agents AND one or more type B free agents?
Another issue regarding Joba and the pen that isn’t discussed much but needs to be.
Was Joba overthrowing out of the pen last year and earlier this year before he was converted back to the rotation?
People are reading his current velocity and getting concerned that he isn’t throwing 98-99 like he was regularly doing out of the pen earlier in the year.
But perhaps throwing 98-99 out of the pen was overthrowing for him and that was the reason for his tendinitis?
Comparing his starts to his pen appearances from the beginning of this season there were two big differences.
First as a starter his velocity was down a bit. No surprise there. Second he threw more fastballs and fewer sliders as a starter (along with more curves and changes).
Joba had never relieved before. When he went into the pen he basically took an “empty the tank” approach. That’s why his velocity spiked up. How many times did we see him hit 100 out of the pen? Never saw that as a starter.
Good chance it was that “empty the tank” approach that was the underlying cause of his tendinitis. That extra strain may have been what set him up to have problems later on in the year.
Is this definitive? No. But it’s plausible that it was pitching out of the pen that set up his injury rather than starting. It’s really not possible to assign a cause. A case can be made for both.
From Dan Patrick’s blog:
Smoltz thinks that the playoffs are better without the Yankees because you have some great stories, especially the Rays. (it must be hard for people, All Yankees all the time!) And thought that Torre should’ve been there. Smoltz also admitted that Mo had a better season than K-rod. Smoltz thinks that WHIP is the most important stat to evaluate a pitcher.
Here’s a great line from one of Dan’s producers:
Seton, who is a Yanks fan, had a great line. Hank is a dude who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. Dan pointed out that’s Yankee-on-Yankee crime.
*should’ve been acknowledged.
ack! And Smoltz would choose Mo in the 9th inning of a playoff game.
“And Smoltz would choose Mo in the 9th inning of a playoff game.”
I’d take Smoltz for the 1st 8 and Mo for the ninth.
That guy could pitch in the postseason.
I like what Smoltz said about Mo vs KRod. I think that save record is a bit overrated. In reality, he had the most opportunities to save a game. Mo had an awesome season in terms of converting saves. I think KRod blew about 6 saves.
“John
September 24th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I have very very very high expectations for the yankees next season. For whatever reason or not, I just have a feeling that they will have a great season”
I agree… problem is, I’ve been saying that since 2001.
SJ, great post. I completely agree and, by the way, lol, the media has already started their whining. I don’t intend to read any post-mortem articles on the Yankees as I don’t think one of these mediots has the ability to be fair and objective (like Buster, they are going into their drama queen mode, predicting doomsday for the Yankees).
Perhaps these players, when they see other teams playing in October, will look in the mirror and realize what a punch in the stomach it is for them to be home at that moment (and what a privilege it is to play in the post-season). The 1997 Yankees were distraught and ANGRY over getting knocked out of the playoffs early and they used that anger (obviously some moves were made as well) as a motivating tool throughout the following season. Perhaps these Yankees can do the same, at least those that will still be here.
The Yankees are paying now for decisions, as SJ said, that they made 7 years ago, but they have the smarts and $$ to deal with this until their farm system starts producing players. I have faith in Cashman and Hal to do what it takes to get this team back into a position where it is a real contender to compete for the WS (I don’t believe they would have been one had they made the playoffs – most likely, another first round exit).
IMHO, if Cash can improve the first base and outfield defense, then that will go a very long way to getting back to the promised land. Just look at how many balls the Angels’ outfield gets to.
The Red Sox also have at least 4 above average defensive outfielders. Part of the reason they’re able to do that is because they get true production from their DH. I think with Matsui being the regular DH next year, this can be a much more balanced team if a quality CF is acquired with Damon in left and Nady in right. To me, that’ll be a big part of making this a more balanced team.
One thing – let’s not count Melancon as a sure thing by any means. I’m sure he will be a very good guy out of the pen eventually, but he hasn’t even thrown a pitch in the big leagues. To count him as part of an outstanding pen isn’t fair – for all we know, he’s goint have his own struggles (can’t wait to see how Yankee fans treat him when he does). Same for Phil Coke. Let’s see how he handles adversity before we annoint him some kind of savior.
I don’t see anyway that Phil is going to be traded despite the fact that 95% of the fans want to see him go. It doesn’t matter what fans think, just what the FO thinks (I’m not even counting Hank). Hal loves Phil…..obviously so does Cashman. I just don’t understand why we can’t be patient with this kid. To me, it says a lot (and none of it positive) that at 22, he’s nothing more than trade bait. It also tells me that Yankee fans are incredibly spoiled and that they don’t deserve to have (what they claim to want to have) a team of mostly (not all) homegrown players. Yankee fans want immediate success and if any kid has the nerve to struggle, then look out. Now, if fans don’t act like this about other youngsters, then I have to conclude that there is something personal about Phil that they don’t like. Either option is not palatable. This kid has tremendous talent (something I know 95% of fans would disagree with, unfortunately, based on a pathetically small sample of starts this year) and giving up on him would be a big mistake.
IF we sign Tex, obviously, Giambi is gone.
But what IF we do NOT sign Tex?
Of 27 MLB 1st baseman with a min. of 400 ABs, 2008 Giambi is:
... between 5th to 8th in OPS, in the same company as Morneau, Miggy Cabrera and Prince Fielder.
... is 7th in HRs, with the same number as Tex, 2 behind Pujols and Fielder
... 12th in RBI. However, with counting stats like HRs and RBI, Giambi has only about 80% of the ABs as the other regulars.
This year Giambi was relatively healthy. He has ZERO range, but fields most balls hit at him, and is above average in scooping bad throws. However, he was HORRIBLE… HORRIBLE in RISP. How common is this for Giambi? In his career as a Yankee, here is the amount his RISP OPS is higher (or lower) the his OPS:
2002: + .081
2003: + .069
2004: + .141
2005: + .029
2006: + .176
2007: + .037——————Avg: + .089
Those are pretty excellent numbers. I haven’t run all the numbers on Jeter (2005-2007, + .042) or other Yankees, but Giambi has been VERY clutch his entire career as a Yankee, maybe moreso then any other Yankee, before this year.
Giambi will cost $22m to keep, $5m to let him go, so his net cost is $17m
So, am I making a case to keep Giambi? NO…I’m not.
I am however making the case that he is not simply a throw away. That is should be in the mix. He would simply be a ONE year stopgap until the Yankees knew more about how they will man 1B in the coming years. Posada? ARod? Montero?SJ44?
What will another (non Tex) 1BMan cost, in terms of CONTRACT LENGTH? Do we want to commit to 5 years of a Casey Kotchman type? Who will we get for (only) 2009 who will be more productive then Giambi in NEW YORK? These questions need to be answered before we can scrap Jason.
And Miranda? Have you seen his splits? He is totally useless against LHP. In terms of fielding, all reports say he makes Giambi look like Mattingly. Miranda is probably trade bait, or a PHer against RHP. Unfortunately, he is not an answer. Some might say he is Giambi Lite, but I don’t think he’s even that good.
And for those of you who want to get younger? Trading Cano, or Phil, or IPK, or other top prospects for a CFer or 1Bman is NOT the way to get younger.
In my opinion, For who is to blame, I think that everyone had a hand in that one. It all started with the Torre fiasco. Joe is the only one who should have managed the club and nobody else. He made it twelve consecutive times to the playoffs! Making it to the playoffs is not a gimme. I believe that Hank found that out this year. He is a great manager. Joe should have been given the two year contract that he deserved. That was a classless act by a very classy organization. Santana should have been obtained. When you have a chance to get the best pitcher in baseball you get him. Pitching wins championchips. You know what you have in him, but not in the prospects. Most prospects do not pan out. There should have been another choice: Injuries. Yes, I know that they are part of baseball, but when you have so many injuries then this becomes one of the reasons. I believe that if the Yanks didn’t have no where near as many injuries then they would have made the playoffs. The two injuries that hurt the worst were losing Wang and Posada. Losing ARod for three to four weeks didn’t help either. In fact, people need to get off his back and cheer him on. Don’t you think that he is giving it his all?? In my opinion, he puts way too much pressure on himself and this is why he doesn’t do as well as he should in clutch situations. Another reason the Yankees didn’t make it is that they were very consistent at being very inconsistent. This type of thing usually lends itself to playing five hundred baseball. Playing small ball would have helped some. From time to time you need to move the runners in scoring position when there are two on and nobody out. The Yankees hit into countless DPs this year under that sceniero. Cano is a highly talented second baseman. He just needs to keep his head in the game and stop swinging at so many bad balls. Even if he hit a lot of those bad balls it would have been on the bat handle…..Girardi needs to keep on him.
Lastly, if the Yankees want to get back into the World Series than they need to do the following:
1. Obtain the necessary starting pitching. In my opinion, that was THE KEY to the championchips. Obtain Sabathia at all costs. Obtain another #1 or #2 type pitcher such as A. J. Burnet. Now you would have a rotation of Sabathia, Wang, Burnett (if obtained), Petite and Moose. Keep Joba in the bullpen. From what I have heard Mo is going to pitch two more years and that is it. If this is the case who is his replacement?? Joba is the man. I am not sure that he can hold up to so many innings a year. He does have a history of breaking down. Joba would be the 7th and 8th inning guy. He would pitch those two innings and then hand it off to Mo.
2. Sign Manny. I believe that he has a very big chip on his shoulder and there is nothing more than he would want to do than to sign with the Yankees and win the World Series so that he can tell Boston mgt to SHOVE IT! He would pretty much behave. You stick him in the middle of that line up behind ARod. Manny is a very good clutch hitter too! I would sign him for two years and a club option for a third year. Yes, signing Manny would then have at least one guy who was a starter will be on the bench. However, they can be rotated and all of them would play enough games. Remember the 1971 Baltimore outfield? They had four guys and were rotated so that they all played in enough games. Remember there was no DH back then either. The four were: Frank Robby, Blair, Buford and Marv Rettenmund.
3. Texira would be a very good signing, but in my opinion it is not as important as the other suggestions. Giambi is still a decent option if Texira can’t be signed.
4. Play small ball from time to time. Move those runners into scoring position!