Today in The Journal News
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- September
- 25
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The rampaging Yankees won again, beating the Jays in 10 innings. But the intrigue is off the field as Brian Cashman ponders whether to return.
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Sad news as Giants broadcaster Dick Lynch passed away. Mike Dougherty has that story.
Lynch was an unabashed homer and it was charming in an old-school way. I always thought he, Bob Papa and Dave Jennings were a good listen. It’s good sometimes to listen to a game on the radio, be it football or baseball. Broadcasters like Lynch, or the real pros like Vin Scully, can really be entertaining.
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Check out this interweb photo wizardry on LoHud.com. It’s a panoramic view of Yankee Stadium on Sunday night and you can use your cursor to see the entire 360-degree view. It’s pretty cool.
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on Thursday, September 25th, 2008 at 4:23 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
That is sad news. My local station had a contract to run the Giants games the last few years and I enjoyed hearing the different voices. They would take turns doing different innings along with Johnny Miller, who is quite enjoyable to listen to on the radio.
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Re: Cashman, I hope he chooses to return. He has said he’s going to give his answer very soon, rather than wait until the last week like he did with his last contract.
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Nice job by Phil. Whether you’re a seasoned vet or a struggling young starter, 8 innings of 2-run ball is nothing to sneeze at. So by that definition, AJ also had a good game. So that was AJ’s swan song in Toronto?
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O/T, but just saw the rosters for Hawaii Winter Baseball in the paper. Yankees will be on the Waikiki Beachboys team.
Romine C
Sublett IF
Bleich P
Brackman P
Jeff Ware (Charleston) Pitching Coach
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Mo’s up for the DHL closer award @ mlb.com if you want to vote.
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Good night (and good morning).
Well going by the precedent of Omar getting offered 4 years, Cashman should be offered a limited partnership.
The Stein boys know Cash will get offered jobs up the yingyang so their making their position known early and often.
I think Cash has been great except when it comes to starting pitching where he’s been either snakebit or flat out wrong.
The Cano contract was unnecessarily early as well.
The Dick Lynch news is sad. He a Giant from the Yankee Stadium Glory Days that faded into the years of senseless incompetence, when the fans used to serenade Head Coach Allie Sherman with “Good Bye Allie” (to the tune of Good Night Ladies) and Fran Tarkenton “scrambled” hundreds of yards from side to side, but never as many yards forward.
I used to attend Giants games with my dad after church on Sundays. My father’s favorite Giant after Charlie Connerly and YA Tittle was Joe Morrison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Morrison. Back in the day men went to Giants and Yankees games in jackets and ties, some were still wearing fedoras. Most of the fans drank real booze and everybody smoked, usually Marlboros or cigars. Some of these same men died in their 50s from heart attacks, from steak and booze and no exercise. We’ve come a long way, thankfully. Now, like Lynch, we live long enough to die from different stuff, like leukemia, prostate and esophageal cancer. Dad was shook up to hear about Lynch and losing Bobby Murcer really hit home, not just because we remember these players but because, like Lynch, my father has developed leukemia. As my dad tells me, “Don’t get old.”
The Giants came through for my dad last year with a World Championship and I was pulling for the Yankees to do something good for him this year too. But it’s all right. He saw Mantle and Maris, Rizzuto and DiMag. He loved Joe Pepitone because his father, my grandfather, did, but his favorite player is still Yogi. He saw Reggie and Gator and Munson and of course he saw the Dynasty of the late 90s with Jeter and Mo and Posada and Pettitte.
But despite all he has seen, one of my father’s favorite Yankee memories is the time he ran into Paul O’Neill in a mall in Westchester. O’Neill asked him what time it was. “All that money and he doesn’t wear a watch,” my father says, shaking his head, every time he tells the story.
Hey guess what, Joe Torre is in the post season again, so his streak didn’t end like the Yanks.
It will be interesting to see how the Omar contract impacts the negotiations.
Usually, the Yankees like to go 2-3 years on GM contracts.
However, like players, management contracts work off precedent in the industry.
I heard Theo also got a 4 year extension.
If I’m Cash, I either get 4 years or I move on. There is no way Omar Minaya should have more job security than Brian Cashman.
Plus, if Cash really wants to see his plan through, its going to take 4 years. I know folks hate hearing that but, its true.
It will take that long to get the farm system completely fixed at all levels.
Doesn’t mean the Yankees won’t be competitive for 3-4 years That won’t be the case, regardless of whom assumes the GM role. It just means the farm system, pretty much neglected from 2000-2005, is still a work in progress.
Several inches of rain expected in Boston this weekend. May be tough for them to get more than one game if we’re to believe the weather reports.
I can’t look at the pictures, it requires quicktime, don’t have it. Will have to wait till I get home!
Where was this team all year? All of a sudden they are world beaters! If they played this way all year we would be in the post season, and Boston would be sitting home not us.
Great game by Phil last night, hopefully he goes into AZ and pitches just as well, than gets himself ready for spring training.
Less than 150 days till pitchers and catchers report!!!
Fredo, I just hope they get Sundays game in. Mike has to be able to go for 20 otherwise the baseball gods are telling him they don’t want him to get 20.
I hope Cashman comes back to see the plan through. I guess the question is, does this particular job still energize him, or is he drained? Last November, Torre was set to accept the offer until he looked around and realized that he didn’t want to deal with the pressures because it wasn’t “fun” for him anymore, and turned down the (lukewarm) offer. And though it looks like the offer to Cashman will not be lukewarm, will Cashman also just say he doesn’t want to do it here anymore?
Nice start by Hughes last night. I’m glad he closed his season on a positive note.
Jennifer:
Apparently Sunday is their best shot. Getting my weather info second hand. My son is at BC and I’m heading up for Parent’s Weekend. He suggested I build an ark.
If Tampa beats Detroit today (1:05 start) then there isn’t really a need to play these games which will sort of suck for us and be a major disappointment for Moose.
What’s going to happen with the Mets next games is going to be interesting as rainouts are being predicted and they need to play those games.
This storm came out of nowhere. I didn’t hear anything about it till yesterday night. Than I hear it is going to rain all weekend.
It poses an interesting question, if the games in Boston are meaningless will they make an attempt to play them if it rains as bad as they think?
“It poses an interesting question, if the games in Boston are meaningless will they make an attempt to play them if it rains as bad as they think?”
Hard to say. A Friday rainout seems a near certaintly. I can’t envision a doubleheader being played in an effort to make up a game that has no meaning to the anyone. I’ve heard that the Red Sox are retiring Johnny Pesky’s number (not sure I understand why) in a ceremony ahead of one of the games so I’m sure they’ll go all out to get at least one in.
everyone loves cashman. theo loves him. riccardi loves him. girardi loves him.
he even says,” I talk to him four or five times a day. It’s been a great line of communication and I’ve absolutely had a blast”.
well gee joe. glad you had a blast because i sure didn’t. your team sucked most of the time . glad you and cashman were yucking it up while the year went down the drain.
the only way to jump start the yankees is to get someone like showalter into the equation. i don’t care if there is constant management turmoil. cashman’s simplistic get nothing done management style has too go. he talks big ,but doesn’t execute . the minor league system stinks. great youth movement.
i want a gm that opposing gms hate. all riccardi and theo are really saying is that they love kicking cashman’s ass and they hope they get to keep doing it.
ask yourself this, if cashman wasn’t there, could the yankees have been any worse this year? people are delusional about cashman’s value. thank god he isn’t a political leader with the ability to invade foreign countries or to make decisions that could ruin economies. at last he’s in a role where there is no real world consequence to his incompetence.
thank god baseball is just a game.
The games aren’t totally meaningless. There are some stats that the players would like to have a chance at getting for the year, the opportunity for some of the young players who were called up to get in some ML experience. Mussina having a shot at the 20th win for the season.
Besides that, what about fans who might only have had this chance to see their team play?
If they don’t play the game, who gets the forfeit?
What if 3rd and 4th place aren’t set by then? While it doesn’t seem like much, Torronto would love to beat the Yankees in the final standings.
The games might be “meaningless” in terms of the post season play and all, but they do have meaning for some people. For me, with the Yankees out I have no real interest in the post season games. I watched about 10 minutes of the WS last year. This is my last time to get to see the team that I want to see play for this year.
And tonight could be Pedro’s last start of his career.
Personally I’ll miss him. I always thought he helped turn the rivalry up a notch when he was with Boston. Facing him was always fun and certainly memorable. It’s a shame his Met career was so marred by injury. Still his signing turned the Mets into the organization it is today. His HOF chances are interesting.
His resume is HOF caliber for sure except for the fact that he only has 214 wins.
Anybody else notice that the Yankees started making their run when they stopped trotting Ponson and Rasner out there to pitch 2 out of every 5 days. Coincidence? I think not.
Randy1
(1) I read that the ghost of Casey Stengel was played by an ex-bullpen catcher …. was that you? and are you qualified to play a ghost?
(2) Please stop complaining about Cashman. Sox fans are very comfortable with him at (or near) the helm.
(3) To buttress your primary point (about the need to actually EXECUTE “The Plan”), I heard something astonishing last night. Yankee draftees from 1997-2005 are light years behind evryone else in terms of major league IP/ABs ….. with ANY team. Basically, if the Yankees draft and “develop” a player, he is destined for a short minor league career, a shorter (or non-existent) ML career, and a long period of reflection in the hamburger flipping business.
So leave Cashman alone. We like him just the way he is.
Bronx Jeers –
Pedro is a no doubt about it first ballot Hall of Famer. He’ll get voted in easily on the first ballot. Easily the most dominant pitcher of the 90s and early 00s. Had a couple of the most dominant seasons in the history of baseball. Throw in a ring and breaking the curse, shoot he’ll cake walk in.
The panoramic shot is interesting, especially the two bald guys by the Yankees on deck circle who I thought were twins, and then realized were the same guy from two shots.
Brian –
The problem with your argument against Cashman is that he had little to no control over the draft from 97-05. You can’t put that on him. He’s controlled the draft since then though and was able to produce Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Austin Jackson, etc. You keep sticking by the Golden Boy though and your management who have disrespected every great player who has come through that organization. Just wait a couple years till Papi is bashed and unceremoniously kicked out of town.
“Anybody else notice that the Yankees started making their run when they stopped trotting Ponson and Rasner out there to pitch 2 out of every 5 days.”
I noticed they made their “run” long after they were effectively eliminated from contention. FWIW, when Boston left the Bronx a month ago, it was with the same 6 game lead they enjoy today. That ain’t much of a run.
Rodg12
I hear what you’re saying about Cashman not being responsible for the poor drafts. But many posters are willing to give him LOTS of credit for the four rings. So did he have significant input, or didn’t he? And if he didn’t, then what in his resume makes him such a valuable baseball mind?
Re “disrespecting players” ….. if the Yankees want to keep giving marginal veterans top dollar as an ongoing “Thank You” for past glory, then that’s their prerogative. Kind of clogs the roster with deadwood, though ….
brian (red sox fan)-
nope , i wasn’t casey. good thing because can you imagine if in the middle of the ceremony, that cashman came on the field and then the ghost of casey snapped and chased him all over the field in front of a national audience.
i’m constantly amazed on this blog how little yankee fans know about how red sox fans feel about cashman. red sox fans do love cashman. i know that because i’m surrounded by them here on cape cod. i’m glad my distress over cashman amuses you.at least it’s good for something. gotta keep a sense of humor.
so if the rays maintain their lead, the red sox start the playoffs against the angels on the road. are you worried about the red sox being in a “one and done” situation ?
the red sox usually handle the angels pretty well, but in this after ped era, it’s a different game and the angels seem well suited for it.
I think the Central team to get in will be one and done. Whoever faces the Angels in the first round will be done as well.
The second round, which will probably be the Rays and the Angels will last longer, but with the Angels having homefield advantage I think they will prevail.
National League will be a bit more interesting.
I agree Pedro meets the most important HOF criteria which is domination during the era he played in but 214 wins is kind of low. Moose has 55 more wins while only playing 1 more season yet he’s no lock. Kaat has 283 wins and never made it. It’s certainly interesting.
I would like to know Pete’s opinion on this as I know he’s voting for Cy Young this year. Cou…Cliff Lee…gh.
I was just reading over some of the comments from yesterday and last night….
The whole Pettitte injury argument is a little silly. His IP and number of starts over the last 12 years should put that debate to rest. When Trish has an axe to grind she really puts the hammer down. First it was Kennedy, which is understood. But Pettitte? Andy Pettitte? Its tough to support that claim.
I agree with Randy about some of his comments regarding Cashman. If he was kicking Theo’s and Riccardi’s butt for the last 5 years I doubt they would be so complimentary. Unfortunately that hasn’t been the case.
With that being said, I do want Cashman back. I fear if he leaves a disgusting spending spree will take place, setting the franchise back for years to come.
Randy 1 …. very concerned about a “one and done” against the Angels. They play well on the road, they play well at Fenway, they were 8-1 against us this year. Lowell may not play, Drew may not play, Papelbon has lost velocity (and doesn’t trust his splitter).
I guess I’m hoping that the Sox’ new found ability to play under pressure (I love this millenium!) will carry the day. Also, Beckett, Lester and Dice-K all seem healthy and throwing well. But I’m more concerned about their ability to score runs, and/or to best the Angels in low-scoring, one run games.
P.S. You would have made a great Casey, I’m sure.
Just enjoy the fact they are finishing the season playing well while Hughes had his best effort in pinstripes. No they aren’t playing pressure packed games and you shouldn’t read too much into a late surge of good baseball, but isnt it better than indifferent play down the stretch as they stagger home in fourth place.
I’d like to see Cashman get an incentive laden deal like Torre was offered. Maybe $ 2 M a year with $ 100 K for reaching the playoffs, $ 100 K for winning the ALDS, $ 100 K for winning the ALCS and $ 200 K for winning the World Series.
It’s a shame the weather is going to stink up there… I’m coming to the city next week to see my daughter at Columbia. Anyone know if they have added Stadium Tours now that the place won’t be hosting any post-season games?
We’ve been hearing about this storm for several days now. It’s supposed to be pretty intense.
Here’s my question. Say for the sake of argument that the entire weekend is washed out. Do the games go away altogether since there is nothing they need to play for? If the answer to that is yes, it would mean that Moose doesn’t get the shot at his 20th.
I want Cashman back. I have no confidence that Hank and Hal would pick anyone better.
“I want Cashman back. I have no confidence that Hank and Hal would pick anyone better.”
The devil you know, eh WYH????
You bet, FC.
i would think that the last team the Angels want to play is the Sox.
Angels- Rays if it ever comes to that would be a great series but I would pick LA.
Can’t believe Delgado hits a slam off Zambrano and the Mets still lose.
If anyone wants a good laugh, go read the mets blog. They make us look like The Brady Bunch on valium.
Some random thoughts…..
Even if the storm is intense and 2 out of 3 games get rained out I think Moose gets his shot at 20. If they only play one game in that entire series, Moose starts it.
I don’t really understand some of the hate towards the Mets. I’m a NY fan in general, and while I’m a Yankees fan before anything else I don’t root against the Mets. I root against the Red Sox. I’ll be pulling for the Mets to make and advance in the playoffs because its good for the city and I support most NY teams.
Pedro and the Hall of Fame? NO DOUBT. One factor in determining worthiness to get into the Hall is being dominant at your position in your era. I can’t think of anyone more intimidating than Pedro in his heyday. The guy was awesome and I couldn’t stand him when he was on the Red Sox. His winning percentage is off the charts. His strikeouts are incredible. He has multiple cy young awards and a ring. He’s in…first ballot. No question in my mind.
by the way, if they were to trade Hughes, they could prob get back any player they wanted that would hit the trade market this winter.
just saying.
I love the idea of offering Cashman an incentive laden deal. When he was talking about the Torre deal last year, he seemed to think that was a great offer and that it would give Torre incentive to do a better job. Why not be under the same circumstance.
With Torre it was also about the years, so I would limit it to years and performance. After all, if he felt it was truly fair for Torre, the same should apply to him.
Trisha –
If the games could impact the match-ups in the post-season they play them. If the Rays have locked up the division – they won’t bother.
“When he was talking about the Torre deal last year, he seemed to think that was a great offer and that it would give Torre incentive to do a better job. Why not be under the same circumstance.”
that was offered because they knew Torre would never accept it.
nor would Cashman.
Bronx Jeers, I don’t think the Angels are that worried about facing the Sox this year. Last year their team was so beaten up that they weren’t going to go anywhere in the post season. This year they are all healthy. I think their chances against Boston are pretty good.
I think LA will be in the WS.
“The whole Pettitte injury argument is a little silly. His IP and number of starts over the last 12 years should put that debate to rest.”
Not to extend this but only to respond to Miggs. It starts to sound a little less silly when you realize that all of the almost 300 days of downtime has taken place over the last 8 years and when you take time to think about the number of times he had to leave the mound with back spasms – there have been quite a few. If you add to it the two months of this year we’ve been told he was playing “hurt” it should at least make you wonder whether he has the ability at this point in his career to stay healthy and therefore to pitch effectively.
I don’t question anyone’s right to love the guy for what he has given. But I’m with the poster who said that he wants the Yankees to stop making decisions on sentimentality.
What happens from here is up to the Yankees. Some posters have said they would take Andy back. Others have said they are ready to say good bye. So there are obviously arguments to be made both ways. I respect peoples’ rights to make those arguments. I hope the rest of you do too.
That said, I am done with this. If someone wants to keep it alive that’s on you.
Didn’t Torre always have certain incentives in his contracts or am I mistaken?
When has Riccardi “kicked Cashman’s butt”? The Jays haven’t finished higher than the Yankees in the standings in Cashman’s tenure as Yankees GM.
“Didn’t Torre always have certain incentives in his contracts or am I mistaken?”
yeah, i think there were playoff bonuses in there somewhere.
Turn Two, the point is if Cashman keeps talking about setting the example, not doing a deal during the year, and if he is to be believed that he felt Torre’s offering was a good one, then he would take a similar option himself.
Of course the deal was put together in a manner in which they knew Torre was going to walk.
I really don’t care if Cashman walks. It might be time to have someone new in that position as well. Buck might be an interesting choice.
Cashman and Torre’s deals are apples and oranges.
A manager benefits from a longer term because if he is in his contract year there is a real risk of the players tuning him out. A manager is on the front line dealing with the players constantly and directly responsible for their performance.
A GM doesn’t have that same issue – he is more removed from the situation and is making deals and roster moves – not motivating, punishing or rewarding.
“by the way, if they were to trade Hughes, they could prob get back any player they wanted that would hit the trade market this winter.”
Wouldn’t go quite that far, but they could get a good young position player for him.
“I’d like to see Cashman get an incentive laden deal like Torre was offered. Maybe $ 2 M a year with $ 100 K for reaching the playoffs, $ 100 K for winning the ALDS, $ 100 K for winning the ALCS and $ 200 K for winning the World Series.”
Allow me to help everybody visualize that scenario.
Interior: Yankees Offices in Tampa: Day
Hank Steinbrenner:
” Okay Brian, We would like to offer you a similar deal to the one we offered Torre.”
Brian Cashman:(Who finally answers his cell phone which has been ringing non stop)
“Hold on to that thought Hank I’ve got 3 other offers on hold right now.”
Cashman exits.
“I don’t really understand some of the hate towards the Mets. I’m a NY fan in general, and while I’m a Yankees fan before anything else I don’t root against the Mets. I root against the Red Sox. I’ll be pulling for the Mets to make and advance in the playoffs because its good for the city and I support most NY teams.”
I also have no problem with the Mets. Mine is totally with Boston. But that is likely due to my physical proximity to the latter and also the fact that the Mets are an NL team and therefore not even in our league – of you will.
TK I am thinking that the Rays will have clinched and at least some of the games this weekend are going to be rained out according to the weather forecast. I don’t even want to think about the possibility of Sunday not being played. You can imagine that the Sux could care less about playing these games and would likely prefer not to have to – and who could blame them.
“nor would Cashman.”
Especially in light of guarenteed deals offered to Epstein and Minaya.
I never bought into Torre’s attitude that incentive were an insult that implied he’d work harder. To me incentives are a reward for success. If a player can get a bonus for being an MVP, why the heck can’t a manager or GM be in the same position.
Frankly, the more people in any organization with the potential to increase their compensation when the company does well the better.
the only problem with the “injury prone” argument is, it’s not true.
Only 4 pitchers in the game have made more starts than Pettitte in the last 13 years.
That’s a sign of durability, not fragility.
The Yankees have told Pettitte they want him back next year. They aren’t doing it for sentimental reasons. They are doing it because they still think he has something left in the tank.
It’s now up to Andy to decide if he wants to return.
It’s either the Yankees or retirement.
Cashman was a Torre supporter till the end, it was George and company that wanted Joe gone. My guess is that the incentive deal they offered Torre wasn’t totally Cashman’s idea.
Theres no reason to punish Cashman for this season. Offer him a fair deal and hope that he takes it. He has a good vision for the future of this team and so far he’s been doing a pretty good job of executing that vision.
“Wouldn’t go quite that far, but they could get a good young position player for him.”
well yeah, that was my point.
Colby Rasmus, Matt Kemp, Joey Votto, or Chris Davis.
they’d all look pretty good in pinstripes to me.
“I never bought into Torre’s attitude that incentive were an insult that implied he’d work harder.”
I absolutely agree.
Trisha I don’t want to argue about it. I think Pettitte has been great. He’s been about as reliable as any starter over the last 12 years.
I guess it has to do with what your definition of “injury prone” is. He has had some little nagging injuries over the last few years but rarely have they made him miss any time. His last serious injury was in 2004. He has only had 2 injuries over his whole career where he has missed significant time. That’s pretty good for a starting pitcher.
“If a player can get a bonus for being an MVP, why the heck can’t a manager or GM be in the same position.”
Apples and Oranges.
“they’d all look pretty good in pinstripes to me.”
Of course but they would all be nearly impossible to get. Also you have to remember, young pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball. The Yanks shouldn’t sacrifice really good young pitching for those guys.
“The Yankees have told Pettitte they want him back next year.”
I missed that. What role do they envision for him?
Turn Two:
You can probably forget Davis. Rangers aren’t moving him. They’ll look to move some surplus at C, but not Davis.
“The Yankees have told Pettitte they want him back next year. They aren’t doing it for sentimental reasons. They are doing it because they still think he has something left in the tank.”
Given that this is true – is there a chance that money becomes an issue in the negotiations? Or are the Yanks essentially boxed in to giving Andy more than this year’s performance deserves.
It is pretty clear we didn’t get $16M out of Andy this year, but how much of a haircut can they give his package without looking schizophrenic? (We’d love to have you back, just take a 30% decrease!)
“I think LA will be in the WS.”
We have more faith in the Angels than many of their fans I’ve spoken with. The company I work for is SoCal based and most are Angels fans and they seem less confident about their team than we do about their team.
“Of course but they would all be nearly impossible to get. Also you have to remember, young pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball. The Yanks shouldn’t sacrifice really good young pitching for those guys.”
you contradict yourself here.
young pitching is the most valuable commodity, but you cant trade one of the best young pitching prospects in the league for a young position player of similar talent?
for Davis, Rasmus, or Votto, espeically, i think they could each be available for pitching. The Rangers, Reds, and Cardinals are always in need for pitching.
its trading a farm strength for a farm strength.
“You can probably forget Davis. Rangers aren’t moving him. They’ll look to move some surplus at C, but not Davis.”
dont disagree completely. but its worth asking, as its not completely out of the realm, especially if you throw in some of our bullpen depth, perhaps, as well.
Pettitte has to be smart enough to realize he’s not going to get 16 million next year, or anything close to it.
He’s made a ton of money over his career and the Yankees have taken very good care of him. If he really wants to come back and pitch in the new stadium, I think he has to be willing to take a rather substantial pay cut.
The last time I checked 10 million for one year to a guy with a .500 record and 4.5 ERA was a pretty good deal. He should hardly take it as an insult.
My fear is that the Yankees will offer him MORE than they have to because they worry about insulting him.
they envision him as a back of the rotation starter. Andy also knows he won’t be getting 16 million next year.
Gives you a little insight into the Yankees thinking if they envision Andy in a back end role in 2009.
If Cash stays, Hughes/Cano will not be dealt.
Cash goes Bye/bye and the odds get lowered.
Personally I keep both.
Fredo—-
That’s a phrase, but not an answer. Players often have incentive for measureable individual accomplishments. The only measureable accomplishments for managers and GMs are in the standings and post-season success.
Again, why is there something wrong with incentives for managers and GM? Anyone?
“young pitching is the most valuable commodity, but you cant trade one of the best young pitching prospects in the league for a young position player of similar talent?”
First, it really depends on the relative value each player has to his team. I think the Yankees would value Hughes higher than other teams value him. I also think the Reds value Votto more than other teams, etc etc. This is because these guys have the potential to be major pieces of their respective team for many years to come. I’m not sure if Hughes could bring back Votto, Davis, Rasmus, etc. Probably not.
I don’t agree about trading strength for strength. Major league ready high ceiling pitching talent is so rare that you can never have enough. Right now the Yankees have Joba and Hughes in that category. Down the line they might have McAllister, Bettances, Heredia, Brackman matching those criteria but who knows? Its hard to say thats a strength.
“its trading a farm strength for a farm strength.”
True, but Texas probably has more fartm strength and a good bit of it is pitching. They could always use more, but they’ll move a catcher to get it.
“The Yankees have told Pettitte they want him back next year.”
When you link to the article that says this I’ll be willing to accept what you say as more than hyperbole on this particular issue. Girardi said the wanted him back. That’s not the Yankees.
Until then whether Pettitte comes back is up to the Yankees, not Pettitte.
Hopefully when all of the hugs and sentimentality are put away, the Yankees are going to sit down and make some hard decisions. That’s when we’ll see who comes back and who does not.
By the way, Cashman said publicly in the past that Pettitte was his number one priority. That was the year Pettitte ended up in Houston. There’s many a slip between the cup and the lip, even if the Yankees DO end up saying that.
Finally, I don’t want Davis. He is a pretty poor fielder and he strikes out a lot. He has huge power but thats about it IMO.
“Its hard to say thats a strength.”
strength in terms of trading a very valuable commodity for a very valuable commodity. pitcher for position player, and vice versa. need for need.
and the yankees can play the FA pitching market with authority; some of these other teams cant. so pitching, while the Yankees havent been particularly good in acquiring it, can be a relative strength for me in that consideration, too.
Gm’s have bonuses in their contracts based on team goals. They just aren’t the primary parts of their deals because they are salaried employees of the team.
There isn’t a GM in the game that has an incentive laden contract in the game.
It’s not how salaried employees are paid in the game.
If the Yanks envision Andy as a back of the rotation starter, they’ll offer him $9 – $10 million on a one year deal. Assuming they get at least one top FA pitcher and re-sign Moose, that means either Joba goes to the pen or Hughes stays in the minors, pending an injury.
I’d rather not pay that kind of money for a back of the rotation starter when Joba may be available and there are minor league options, including but not limited to Hughes.
I’d rather the Yanks put that money into the offense.
So, I’m hoping that either you are wrong (no offense) or that the Yanks change their minds.
86:
Winning an MVP is an individual effort. Doesn’t require help from anyone else and has little to do with team (in fact, team goals, such as reaching the playoffs or winning a WS CANNOT be includede as incentives in a player’s contract.
I’m not saying it’s an awful idea, but it’s not one an agent for a GM would be to anxious to get involved in. Too many variables. Yankees suffered 3 pretty significant injuries this year that might have been the difference between making the playoffs and not making them. Cashman would suffer because of that. Further, it’s not one that’s likely to happen in Cashman’s case simply because he could quite easily get a guaranteed deal elsewhere.
Trisha, beside the fact that I was told this by one of the players on the team Sunday night, try reading George King’s story in the Post today.
He confirms what I wrote.
If you choose not to believe it? That’s up to you.
TurnTwo,
I don’t think the Yankees have a surplus of pitchers with ace potential who are also near major league ready. They have a couple plus several more who might be there in the future. The couple they do have are untouchable IMO.
They DO have a surplus of young pitchers with the potential to be middle of the rotation starters and middle relievers. Some were traded for Nady/Marte which was very smart IMO. If Cashman can put together a deal that trades some more of these guys for above average position players I’d be all for it. Hughes and Chamberlain? No way unless we are getting back superstars.
Bronx Jeers, I think you are right on the money. And I also feel certain that Cashman will come back.
I think both Cano and Hughes figure heavily into the future of the Yankees, and not as trade bait!
(I think Hughes is an amazing pitcher. I will be stunned if he doesn’t end up as our number 2 or 3 by the middle of next season.)
Dealing Melky Cabrera may be just what his buddy Cano needs to clear the cobwebs from the head of the 2nd baseman.
Melky, Kennedy, Britton, Betemit, are some of those sure to be dealt for upgrades at player positions of centerfield and 1st base if Teixeira isn’t signed.
“Again, why is there something wrong with incentives for managers and GM? Anyone?”
I may have felt the same way until I heard Torre explain it.
I’m paraphrasing a bit but it was something like ” Anybody who needs an extra incentive to reach those goals has no right having the job in the first place.” Bravo is what i thought about that.
I was all for moving in a new direction this season regarding management but Torre made those guys look like idiots last year. I really have no faith in those Steinboys. Hank I believe may be semi-mentally disabled. Hal is an unknown but I’m hoping he asserts himself now at the very least just to see what he’s made of.
Torre did a better job than Girardi but he should given his vast experience. Joe II should be stronger next season. He may be thick but he’s no dummy.
“(I think Hughes is an amazing pitcher. I will be stunned if he doesn’t end up as our number 2 or 3 by the middle of next season.)”
Lot of people thought the same last year, yet he ended up being a #1…….in Scranton. He’s a young guy. Be THRILLED if he can be league average guy (read: #4ish) at age 22.
Yankees players want Burnett with them next year so much that when he was struck on the leg by a Robinson Cano Robinson Cano smash in the third, a player in the dugout turned to trainer Gene Monahan and said, “Go check him out.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09.....130597.htm
Hey SW, if you can link to the article that would be good. I am on my way out the door and could only find this one by King. By the way, this must make your blood boil and also potentially shoot down one of your “sure bets” for next year – that Giambi won’t return!
YANKS NOT RULING OUT GIAMBI RETURN
What a hoot. That’s why in the long run I really pay no attention to “poster angst”, my own included. Fans opinions oftentimes are far removed from the organization’s reality!
Be thrilled if Hughes ever becomes a #3 starter.
“No way unless we are getting back superstars.”
i dont disagree. in fact, we agree on this point… but thats also if Hughes did anything to prove he himself is a superstar, too, which he hasnt yet.
and i’m not saying you have to trade him, or should trade him, or that he cant be very effective in NY. same as Cano.
you dont have to move them, but if doing so fits into the long-term plan to improve the team, and it makes sense, then you pull the trigger.
but if they bring back Pettitte and Moose, and sign Sabathia or another FA arm, it may make Hughes expendable. in that case, while he has solid upside, he’s yet to show it with consistency, just like any of the type of players i mentioned before.
“1Be THRILLED if he can be league average guy (read: #4ish) at age 22.”
Not sure about that, FC. How many great pitchers develop slowly? Some, but for the most part you are great to begin with, or you will never be. A lot of great pitchers do struggle briefly, and I’m hoping that was Hughes in 08.
I don’t want Hughes to be average. If the Yanks are worried about that, they should trade him now, while there are teams that think he has greater upside.
help is on the way check this
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....m-New-York
This is Pettitte’s quote in the Star Ledger this morning.
“They’ve pretty much let it be known to me they’d like to have me back and it’s up to me.”
Even if the message was delivered by Girardi, I would have to think Girardi doesn’t tell Andy “it’s up to you” unless there had already been at least some discussion.
If I recall correctly, when Pettitte’s last contract was up and he was a FA, there were a lot of articles speculating that the Yankees were not in a hurry to resign him because they had some doubts about the health of his elbow. The Yankees did, belatedly, offer him a better contract than the Astros, and though Pettitte turned it down, you’d think the Yankees expected him to accept. So, I suspect that even if they had concerns, the overall body of Pettitte’s work was of the quality that they’d prefer to have him than not. Cashman had said not moving on Pettitte sooner (taking for granted that Pettitte would come back to the Yankees and did not have to be “wined and dined” so to speak) was a regret of his.
As it turns out, Pettitte did end up having elbow surgery during his first year with the Astros, but the injury was caused while he was batting, not pitching. And he attempted to pitch through it for a good part of the season before finally succumbing to the surgery that ended his season.
He came back strong the following season.
Yes, he’s had what have been called “nagging injuries” almost the entirety of his career. But his innings pitched and total games each season, along with good numbers in each of them, speaks to his durability, not his fragility and it speaks to his ability to “gut it out,” giving good performances even when he’s not 100%.
Even in losing 5 consecutive starts and having a poor record the second half of this season, a little run support would have given him a much better result and if the definition of a quality start is expanded to mean keeping your team in the game when you pitch, I would argue that in most cases, Pettitte has done that.
Debate can be had over whether players should or shouldn’t play through various degrees of pain (though everyone’s tolerance for pain is a different). But the fact is that many do, maybe most, and most times will deny the injury anyway. Pettitte stood there for 2 months saying he was healthy.
We all have an opinion on whether or not they would want Pettitte back next season. And the fact that he does have nagging injuries is a factor when considering whether or not to bring him back. Can he still pitch through them? Did last year’s off-season “distractions” have that much of an impact on his training so that he was drained by the second half of the season? My personal opinion is that Pettitte has earned the benefit of the doubt, and as a #5 starter, I’m not sure there’s anyone else out there I’d want as of this date.
I also have my reservations as to whether Mussina is going to return. I really do think he is going to retire. I’d like to have at least one of the veterans back. Even if the Yankees get CC and/or AJ, the focus will be on developing the youngsters and easing them into the rotation. One of the things you want on a team is some continuity. Pettitte and/or Mussina represent that. In addition both of these players are players who want to pass on their knowledge to the younger players coming in, particularly Mussina.
Cashman will never trade Hughes because it shows that he screwed up the Santana trade and made a mistake. I’m sure that will also tick off Hank/Hal, especially Hank who is still ticked off over not having him.
I mean, let’s be real, it was a mistake not getting Santana, but from an organization standpoint, I doubt they are ready to admit that. If we sign CC/Burnett, then it’s not a big deal. If we don’t and we go into the next building with the same rotation we had this year… it is not going to be pretty.
Did Girardi check with Cashman though before asking Andy back?
If not, and if he doesn’t want him back and wants to go younger, it puts Cashman in an awfully tricky spot.
Trisha, you’re a nut. Are you going to vote for Sarah Palin, too?
George King said, in an unattributed quote, that the Yankees want Andy “to return and pitch in the back of the rotation for a lot less money than the $16 million he earned this year”.
A lot less money. That could mean anything.
We’ll just have to wait and see if there is a meeting of the minds. I think Andy could get $9 to $10 million on the open market, if that’s what he wants. I don’t think the Yanks will want to go that high.
The Yanks have options, and if they can get it done with Moose, my guess is we don’t see Andy back in 2009.
“If we don’t and we go into the next building with the same rotation we had this year… it is not going to be pretty.”
except the rotation wasnt really the problem this year, all things considered. the offense drastically underperformed.
Doreen,
There you go, bringing logic to this debate! lol
Joe Girardi doesn’t say ANYTHING out of turn publicly.
He talks to Cashman multiple times a day and they are very close. They have spoken in great detail about what this team needs in the off-season.
When Girardi went public the other day about wanting Pettitte to return, he wasn’t speaking for himself. He was speaking for the organization.
In fact, multiple members of the organization have told Andy they want him back next year.
What they don’t want is for him to wait until December to let them know. They need an answer earlier this year because they are going to be aggressive in re-tooling the club.
Ok, so don’t call them incentives, call them bonuses. It’s the same damn thing. Do performance “bonuses” insult players by imploying they’ll try harder? There’s no difference in rewarding managerial employees similarly.
And no one has complete control over their individual performance bonuses, either. Everything going on around them affects their ability to produce.
Just because it’s “not normally done” doesn’t make it a bad idea. Again, the more people in an organization that benefit from the overall success the better. Sorry that’s such a difficult concept to grasp.
I’ve worked in situaitons where only sales people could get bonuses and I’ve worked in situations where everyone got something based on the company’s success. Guess which place had a more collegial, cooperative working environment.
Andy knows he’s not making 16 million next year.
If he comes back, he’s probably looking at a 1 year, 10 million dollar base with incentives.
Moose is probably looking at a similar deal if he decides to return. Although, I think Moose’s base has a chance to be higher given the solid year he has put together.
As far as Giambi returning? Mel Hall has a better chance of returning next year than Giambi. That’s how remote the possibility is for his return.
They want Andy back because the know more than the arm chair GMs on this board. They know there are underlying reasons for his bad 2nd half that will be rectified next year.
As long as he comes back for less money and is only a the #5… whats the problem? You can certainly do a hell of a lot worse than Andy as the #5.
I think the rotation next season will not include Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson, so it should be better by subtraction, anyway. While both of these guys gave it their all, their all was not nearly good enough on a consistent basis.
The way I look at it is, the Yankees need a rotation where 3/5 of it makes the team feel like a win is a given and the other 2/5 like a win is probable. (Of course, ideally, you want to win all your games!) Too many times this season, there was too much uncertainty about how this or that game would turn out, and besides Moose, no “stopper.”
When Joba went down, it became apparent they could not reasonably be expected to go on any kind of a winning streak.
86,
Salaried employees are different from players and managers.
First off, the work year round, unlike players and managers.
Second, as salaried employees, their compensation packages are different and are collectively bargained, as playercompensation is.
GM’s are paid a salary, much smaller than most player salaries, and have performance bonuses in their contracts.
They aren’t paid on an incentive basis. Players aren’t either.
Their incentives, as are manager incentives, are more to the form of bonuses than money taken from a projected salary.
Given the GM market, Cashman could get a 4 year deal, guaranteed at probably around 2 million a year, if he is on the open market.
The issue is whether or not the Yankees will make that kind of a deal with him.
“Just because it’s “not normally done†doesn’t make it a bad idea. Again, the more people in an organization that benefit from the overall success the better. Sorry that’s such a difficult concept to grasp.”
I’m sympathetic to a ‘pay for play’ mindset – but when you are in a competitive marketplace for talent you can’t always put that kind of offer on the table without causing bad things to happen.
Just to state it in the extreme – imagine if you were to offer Cashman X dollars per win. It would get ridiculous at a certain point and he would be pushed into making moves for the wrong reasons. (imo.)
I’m not saying that Andy is injury prone or anything else. I love Andy. I can’t wait to see his number go up in the new Monument Park someday.
I’m just saying, I don’t think the Yanks are going to pay $10 million plus to each of Andy and Moose next year.
They have to sign a top FA pitcher, and they have to try and sign Tex. And, IMO, they will try to re-sign Abreu to a one year deal, which would cost big time (I know that’s controversial on this board). They also need a stop-gap in CF pending Mr. Jackson’s arrival.
They have options at that the back of the rotation which could save them a lot of money. My guess is that cold logic wins in the end, and only one of Moose and Andy comes back.
If the Yankees want Cashman back (which I think they do) theres no doubt he will be the highest paid GM in MLB. If they truly want him back he will be fairly compensated. My big question is, does Cashman want to return? I think thats more up in the air. He could very easily be sick and tired of the nonsense and decide to cut his losses and go to another franchise. Hopefully thats not the case.
“Cashman will never trade Hughes because it shows that he screwed up the Santana trade and made a mistake.”
Right. Because we all know that Cashman never admits mistakes or makes decisions to make the team better.
This is just as idiotic as the prediction that we’d see Igawa in pinstripes down the stretch because Cashman is obsessed with proving that he made the right decision in signing Igawa.
Whether the Yankees should have traded for and signed Santana will be a good debate for years. But to say the decision not to get Santana was a mistake after just one season is moronic. Hughes could make everyone who doubted him look foolish – or not. We need to give the 22-year old, #1 pitching prospect in baseball a little more time.
“I think the rotation next season will not include Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson, so it should be better by subtraction, anyway.”
OMG Doreen – if it does I need to find another hobby!!!
Morning all.
Sad to hear about the Giants broadcaster. As you know I’m not a Giants fan, but it’s sad to lose anyone as much a pat of their team as that.
If the Mets gave Omar four years, Cashman should probably be able to ask for whatever he wants.
When has Riccardi “kicked Cashman’s butt�
sj-
i had to go back and read my own comment. when you get on a roll, why let facts get in the way right? but actually if you think about it, riccardi has kicked cashman’s ass( pete uses the word so it must be ok) this year just by basically having the same record on with a much smaller amount of resources to work with.
it’s like cashman has the faster race car, but he’s not that great of a driver.
but trust me i don’t love riccardi. he really has been a failure up there when you factor in what he was supposed to do.
What happens with Sabathia/Burnett will dictate what happens with Andy, same thing with Mussina retiring or not.
Nothing is decided yet, there are so many dependent variables and moving parts.
WYH, if they get both Abreu and Tex where is everyone going to play? There are 4 spots for 5 guys (DH, LF, RF, 1B). Tex would be the fulltime 1B, Matsui at DH, Damon in LF, Nady in RF. Where does that leave Abreu?
“As far as Giambi returning? Mel Hall has a better chance of returning next year than Giambi.”
That’s some funny stuff right there. Mel Hall. I haven’t heard that name in years.
Ricciardi is a JOKE. He ruins the arms of young pitchers and he can’t build an offense to save his life. I honestly think Ricciardi is one of the worst GM’s in the league.
Patrick, I don’t see Nady as the Yanks preferred option for RF. I think, if they were to re-sign, Abreu, Abreu would be the full time RF and Nady would have essentially the same role he does this year.
That would not be bad, we desperately need a bench player like Nady who can give our geezers a rest and play if someone gets hurt.
But, that’s just my opinion.
SJ44 -
I think as far as Cashman is concerned, he and ownership must have had conversations about how long the “transition” plan would need and what could be done to facilitate and/or expedite it. If they are totally on board with the plan, I would think they’d offer Cashman a contract that will take him through that time period. (Assuming they’re not talking decades, of course
)
It seems apparent to me that ownership and management knew that this was going to be a difficult year, because no one (well, besides Hank) over-reacted to anything that happened this year. Also, when Wang went down and they didn’t get a stop-gap pitcher, it said the same thing. We’ll do our best with what we have this year, hope for the best, but not get off-course. Kyle for Pudge didn’t take them off-course. Even the Marte/Nady deal didn’t take them off-course, with the possible exception of Tabata, but, he was not a player whose impact was imminent, in any event.
From the outside looking in, it would seem that the only person not on the same page, perhaps not even in the same book, is Hank Steinbrenner. So if Cashman can stand the occasional headaches that Hank causes with his extemporaneous diatribes that get reported in the paper, I don’t see Cashman as the type of person who would abandon a plan – his own plan.
No way Abreu and Tiexiera are both in pinstripes next year. That just makes no sense.
There is a good chance, unfortunately, that neither of them plays for the Yankees in 2009.
I am in the minority that want Abreu back. I think I am also in the minority that do not want anything to do with Tiexiera and Boras. Someone is going to regret that contract big time down the road. I just hope its not the Yankees.
Again, better odds that neither of them play here next year than both.
Omar’s contract = Zito’s contract
completely blew the market out of whack and inflation will occur. contract:performance ratio will be irrelevant.
Good morning, guys.
What’s the topic of the day?
Nice box score from yesterday. Every starter, except Jason & Ransom had a hit. Miranda got 2. 5 hits, no walks over 8 innings= a tidy little WHIP of .625; very nice.
I suspect Jeter will be out, but Alex will be in. There was a nice picture of Jeter, Pettitte, and Alex laughing about something on the edge of the dugout. I think Miranda will play out the string for further evaluation. Did he end up at AA or AAA?
Pulling down the lever for # of games we see Jason…click, click, FOUR!!!!
Hey SW you’re a real gas! There it is in black and white they are considering bringing Giambi back and yet he has as much chance as Mel Hall! Yet you’re willing to quote Goerge King about Pettitte and figure it’s not true when King reports it about Giambi?
Your problem as far as I can see it is that you cannot accept that you have the ability to be wrong. That’s pretty dangerous as I see it.
I am always willing to say that my opinion is just that my opinion – and when I’m wrong – a la Igawa, I am more than happy to say I was wrong! BFD! You on the other hand seem to have a need to believe your chatter is etched in stone!
Stop it will ya. You’rer killing me.
And to paraphrase what you said to me last night, and when Giambi returns next year I don’t want you rooting for him after saying you don’t want him.
Sometimes I think it’s painful for you to believe you are mortal and not omnipotent. Lighten up. You’re only a poster here!
Doreen – if the organization gives Andy an offer and Andy accepts it I will believe Andy is coming back. But that’s just me. I don’t put stock in anything but the outcome. I come from the show me state.
Unlike other posters who live and die on their own word and can’t get past themselves, I adjust nicely to any eventual outcome. Witness Kyle leaving and going to Detroit.
In my world the organization always knows best, no matter the decision. I do not pay hommage to poster views – again my own included. Everyone has an opinion. Opinions are just that. Fact is the eventual outcome.
Its really simple.
Who do you want as your #4 or #5 starter, Andy Pettitte, Darrel Rasner or Sidney Ponson?
Now, we know what one person wants. However, taking that extreme, and solely held point of view, out of the equation, who do people who actually follow and understand baseball, want as their #4 or #5 starter, if those are the choices?
As Doreen correctly points out, you have to have 3/5th of your starting rotation giving you a shot to win in most of their starts.
They also have to be able to give them innings. What really hurt the Yankees was the Wang injury. Not just because he gives you a chance to win in most of his starts but, he always gives you innings. When you don’t get that, and the rotation is filled with 5 inning starters, that’s when your bullpen wears down.
For example, let’s say the Yankees sign AJ Burnett. You have Wang, Burnett, Moose, Pettitte and a 5th starter (perhaps one of the young kids), in the rotation.
That’s 4 guys who give you innings. Potentially, 4 175-210 inning guys. That gives you the chance to ease in one of the kids in the 5th slot and still have a fresh bullpen.
For the sake of this discussion, let’s say the Yankees are able to being back Abreu on a 2 year deal. Unlikely, since I don’t believe he will leave money on the table. But, let’s say that’s the case.
They bring him back, move Nady to first, give Gardner the first shot in CF, and sign BOTH CC and AJ.
The rotation then becomes, Wang, CC, AJ, Moose and Andy. Joba stays in the ‘pen for the first half of the year.
Andy Pettitte as a fifth starter. Only Burnett and Sabathia would have contracts longer than one year in that rotation. Is that not impressive?
One of the interesting parts of this off-season for the Yankees is, they have multiple ways to go to fix the team and still save money. If saving money is something they want to do.
They just have to be smart. Make smart moves, and this is one bad year. Make dumb ones and its the start of a multi-year slide.
Doreen,
Rasner is a replacement guy. Every team has someone like him, just good enough to crack the rotation, and capable of surprising you every now and then, but too old to be a prospect and not talented enough to have much of a ceiling. That’s why the team traded away Karstens, he is basically Rasner II. Ponson is even worse because he’s old enough to have a track record of futility.
Rasner will be lurking next season in case we run low on starters again. It costs nothing to keep him around and he has little trade value. Ponson is gone for certain. If we lose 4 starters again next season, we can find someone else off the scrap heap.
I would bet big bucks that Pettitte is back next season for $10-12 million. This season is a huge reminder that you can never have enough starting pitching, especially when much of that pitching is either very old or very young.
“by basically having the same record on with a much smaller amount of resources to work with.”
This is typical small market thinking – like Billy Beane wanting a freaking gold star for his brilliance even though he has ZERO rings.
Until they change the rules and the socialists take over – it is about wins, losses and championships. Did the Yankees in the previous decades have a payroll advantage over their 26 championships? Who cares? It is about the achievement.
Doreen you make a great point about the front office position and attitude this year.
They made moves they thought could help the 2008 team. But they didn’t do anything to hurt the teams of the future by those moves.
All in all, I actually think they did a decent job. If certain players didn’t go in the tank the team would be playing in October. In a transition year. Which is a pretty big accomplishment.
” He could very easily be sick and tired of the nonsense and decide to cut his losses and go to another franchise.”
patrick( assuming you are good old patrick )-
now that you have your spin properly in place, i see you have returned to the fold.
… but you’re not really going to try to run that up the flagpole again are you?
cashman’s plan pulled a hindenberg. you gotta come up with something new.
by the way , welcome back.
“Mr. T” – geeze I wish I had kept all of your previous screennames so I could address you by all of them!
Brian –
I agree that the Yankees have held onto some veterans too long (or not moved them to other positions – Jeter). But, I just don’t like the way the Red Sox handle letting go of their stars. They float stories to the media putting them in a very negative light and then jettison them. That’s not a good way to do things. Let them go? Fine. Kick them in the ass on the way out? I don’t like that.
You cannot keep Matsui, Damon AND Abreu… it makes the team older, does nothing to improve the defense and fails to make progress towards better LH/RH balance in the lineup.
Teixiera certainly helps the LH/RH issues as well as defense. If the Yanks can’t get him they need to find a quality RH bat somewhere for 1B.
Miggs, the Yanks have $80 million coming off the payroll this if (that’s if you include Giambi and Abreu).
Why couldn’t they afford both Tex and Abreu?
The way I see it:
CC: $23 million
Tex: $23 million
Abreu: $15 million
CF role player to be named: $7 million
That still leaves a little left over.
Now, I wouldn’t give Abreu a multi-year contract, and signs are he wants more than one year. But I’d be willing to overpay for a one-year deal, which might be attractive to him.
Then, in 2010, Abreu, Damon and Matsui come off the payroll, providing a lot of flexibility.
SJ44
Which beggs the question, why has the same been done for Mike? He has 19 + wins. How can you not ask him back? He has already stated he wants to return.
86-
Given the lack of FA choices in the OF this year, I think you can’t afford not to keep all three. The key is, one year only to Abreu and no extensions to Damon or Matsui.
Then, 2010, you’re free of the ball and chain entirely.
86-
Given the lack of FA choices in the OF this year, I think you can’t afford not to keep all three. The key is, one year only to Abreu and no extensions to Damon or Matsui.
Then, 2010, you’re free of the ball and chain entirely.
*** sorry for the double post ***
jen – Girardi has already said he wants Moose back and said it publicly so not to worry according to the psychics here. If Girardi said it then dammit you know he’s talking for the organization!
Anyway, I have to believe Moose is a sure bet if he wants more time in. That’s really the no brainer in the piece. He has alluded to wanting to come back.
WYH its not about money. Of course they can afford it.
Its about positions on the field.
Unless you trade Matsui, Damon, or Nady you don’t have room for all those guys.
Furthermore, you certainly don’t need them all.
I think the front office made great decisions without having the ability to know how they would pan out – as happens with all decisions. I like the youth movement and want to see more of it.
But what do I know.
Trisha -
In the end, the Yankees will do what the Yankees will do. We’re all just speculating spectators. I will root for the team that’s put on the field. And nothing’s written in stone until it is.
SJ44 -
Cashman talks a lot about roster flexibility and if Moose and Pettitte both return in a one-year contract, then it really takes away some of the edge. If they don’t come back and they have to sign either or both of CC and AJ, and then decide they don’t want to rely on the rookies, then they’ll have to go out and get pitchers from outside the organization who are going to require contracts of longer than one year, almost certainly. I’d rather take my chances on Moose and/or Pettitte, further developing Hughes and whoever else (Kennedy or other) in the AAA for as long as needed (all of next season or a part of it).
If everything goes well, you have CC, AJ, Wang, strong top third, in the first year. As time passes, you have CC and AJ moving down while simultaneously Joba and Hughes move up, and also simultaneously continuing to develop starters in the minors so that there is always a seamless transition from one pitching rotation generation to the next. If you have to fill in with a FA every once in a while, that’d be okay.
No chance Abreu accepts a one year deal.
If you really believe that then I want some of what you’re smoking.
2 years plus an option based upon plate appearances makes sense… and Abreu still might not accept that.
Doreen,
Hank is his father’s son. He loves to talk, often without thinking, but is really harmless.
He doesn’t have the mean streak his dad had in the way he treats people. He’s a fan and often reacts like one.
Only difference is, unlike fans, he gets quoted on the record and sometimes it makes him look foolish.
Other than that, he’s not a bad guy at all.
Hal is the “brains” (sorry Hank! lol) of the operation. Hal is the guy who was in the managers office every 2-3 weeks with Cashman, Girardi and, at the end of the year, Jeter and Mo, talking about the team.
Hal is the guy setting the budgets for the next 2-3 years. Hal is the guy phoning Girardi late at night, telling him to “hang in there” when the team struggled. He just likes to be a behind the scenes guy, while Hank loves to be quoted.
In a way, aside from the times Hank says stuff he shouldn’t say, its a smart way of doing things. Hal can run things the way he likes, while Hank takes on the media side of it.
Hank just needs to know when to zip it. As in, “we really love Sabathia” quotes! Not exactly smart to pretty much ‘fess up to a tampering charge if a team wanted to pursue it! lol
When they passed on Santana, it wasn’t a move they made in a vaccuum. They made the move because of a multi-year that, whether Cashman comes back or not, is still going to be in place.
They have a lot of money coming off the books and a lot of ways they can go to re-tool the team.
Its why a guy like Giambi won’t be back. If they needed a DH, he would probably be in the mix. However, they don’t, which is why they will amicably part ways with him.
I would say the odds are non-existent Giambi is the starting first baseman for the Yankees in 2009.
They aren’t going to say that publicly now because they don’t have to. However, when the option pickup comes due, they will decline, pay him his 5 million dollar buyout, and move on.
He knows it too. Its not exactly a deep, dark secret within the Yankees.
Jennifer -
On the Joe Girardi show this past week, Girardi mentioned that Moose has talked about retiring, but he also said that he told Moose to take some time to think and that he (Girardi) would call him a few weeks after the season. I would infer from that that the Yankees want Mussina back as well. (Of course, I could be mis-inferring.)
Wave Your Hat -
Nady is not a bench player as he’s proven this year. He should be a starter next year. He’s a better fielder than Bobby anyways so why bench him for Abreu? Putting Nady on the bench is a huge waste of his talent.
randy,
Yes I’m the same Patrick but this blog doesn’t like the trademark symbol after my name so I removed it.
We will just have to agree to disagree when it comes to Cashman. It seems you are in the minority in hating him.
Over the past 3 years the Yankees farm system has gone from being one of the worst in the league to one of the best (top 5 at the beginning of this season). Throughout this time the Yanks have continued as contenders, obviously that came to an end this year. If a few things break the Yankees way they would have been in the playoffs this year. Considering it was a rebuilding year I’d say thats pretty good.
I’m obviously not happy with how the yankees have played this year but I see the path Cashman is trying to go down and I like it. He is building the farm system while concentrating on pitching. At the same time he’s cutting the payroll and trying very hard to keep the team in the playoffs every year. Of course he’s made mistakes but I like his long term goals and so far I like most of the steps he’s taken towards getting there.
I have to agree with SJ44 about Giambi. Of course they say they’ll be open to discussing his return. Why wouldn’t they say that?
I’ll be shocked if Giambi somehow makes it onto the 2009 roster. He represents everything the Yankees are trying to move away from in terms of age, ability, etc.
SJ44 -
Hank does at least keep it interesting. It was getting pretty monotonous only getting PR-written statements from the Boss. And sad. You’re right, Hank does seem to react like a fan.
If they all come back than you are sitting Abreu or Matsui or Damon every day… that’s a very expensive pinch hitter. I’m opposed to multi-year commitment to Abreu… offer arbitration and when he turns it down cash in the draft picks.
Keep in mind, I am adamantly opposed to just sticking someone at 1B. Teixiera won’t get $ 23 a year. I think 8 years at $ 18 M might get it done. If not, move on.
Two funny mets articles today on the onion if anyone missed them:
http://www.theonion.com/conten....._rss_daily
http://www.theonion.com/conten.....ers_in_one
We should blame Mo for Mussina not getting 20 wins. His lone blown save is the reason afterall.
86 and Miggs-
I don’t see why a one-year deal to Abreu might not work for Abreu if you were willing to pay more than the average yearly salary he would make on a multi-year deal.
I’m sure Abreu thinks he will be good in in 2009 and could get a multi-year deal then. The extra money for 2009 would just be extra money in the bank.
I don’t see why one of Damon or Matsui would have to sit. Nady is the roleplayer. And Damon and Matsui can’t play every day anyway.
“In the end, the Yankees will do what the Yankees will do. We’re all just speculating spectators. I will root for the team that’s put on the field. And nothing’s written in stone until it is”
PERFECT POST D!
I’m there 100%. With every bit of it. Next year’s team is the one I support!
These were three major reasons the Yanks had the season they had. I like Cash, but look at his track record, not a lot of postion players, horrible scouting of pitching, having no clue that NL players in many cases have inflated stats playing in a weaker league,
Petitte? sub 500 season (if he took his next start) he struggled most of the second half.
GI Joe? tough talk, little action,gave several games away, was unable to get players to play to their potential
Actually Miggs they didn’t say they were “open to discuss his return.”
Unlike you and SW, I won’t pick and choose what I believe and then quote someone because it suits my argument. As Doreen said, it’s only going to be known when the decisions are actually made. Until then it is nothing more than guessing and posturing for your favorite.
By the way, whether Giambi returns or not is of little moment to me. But it really weakens the credibility of anyone’s argument to use a newspaper source to say one thing is going to happen and discredit the same newspaper source because you don’t like what was reported. I mean come on! (Not you, my friend, but SW).
Doreen,
Actually, if Moose and Andy both return, it gives Cash more roster flexibility re: pitching.
The Yankees issue going forward won’t be money. The new Stadium is projected to add 100 million dollars annually to the Yankees bottom line. They will spend money.
What they don’t want, if they can avoid it, is having too many guys with 5+ year contracts on the payroll.
Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule.
However, their goal (remains to be seen if they can pull it off) is, to offer larger deals for less years.
For example, if they were to sign CC to a 4 year contract with an AAV that would make him the highest paid starting pitcher in history, with a chance to be back on the market again at 33, does that appeal to him? No idea the answer to that, I’m just throwing out the possibility.
AJ Burnett really wants to pitch for the Yankees. That’s not BS, that’s the truth. Now, will he take a 3 year deal for big money? I don’t know the answer to that yet.
Going back to your example, if you have Moose and Pettitte in the rotation next year, they are only on one year deals. That allows the Yankees to keep most of their young pitching inventory and allows them to continue to develop, rather than just throwing them into the fire at the major league level before their time.
When they are ready, they will be slots available in the rotation because a couple of guys will be on one year deals.
Can they pull this stuff off? That remains to be seen but, that’s kind of the overview of their long range plan.
Trisha,
I know you like to fall into your snippy stage when you get caught talking about things you know nothing about but, think for a minute.
Joe Girardi has spent the entire season saying nothing out of line. He went toe to toe with the beat writers because he wouldn’t give out even the most basic injury information.
Do you now think he is going to go off on his own and speak for the entire organization without Cashman or Hal signing off on it? Really, what do you think the odds are that Girardi will talk out of school now since he hasn’t done it all year? That would never happen.
And, before you make another snide remark about my “opinions”, there is a difference between “opinions” and “facts” and I state them clearly to distinguish between the two.
For example, in Pete’s recent blog entry on his “thoughts about the Yankees”, when I listed mine, I told him to lay off Arod because he has some personal stuff coming to a head.
That was DAYS before his final divorce decree became public. I wasn’t stating an OPINION, I was stating a FACT. If you don’t believe me, go back and read the posts.
I know several guys on the team. A couple of whom are friends of mine. Some have been incredibly generous with their time and money to a charity I am involved with. Some have been incredibly helpful to my nephew, who is a pro prospect for next season. I also know just about every agent in the game and have been in the sports business for over 30 years. I kinda have a lay of the land on the business landscape of the game.
If I state a fact, as in the Yankees wanting Pettitte back, I’m not just pulling it out of my butt.
If you choose not to believe it, that’s your choice.
Just don’t be insulting because, contrary to your belief, there are people who post on this blog everyday who actually have an idea of what’s happening within the team.
Pete would have had me off this blog in a NY minute if what I just told you wasn’t true.
99% of what I hear/know will NEVER make the blog because its not for publication. However, the 1% that does is pretty damn accurate.
We all have differing opinions. That’s what makes the blog fun. Just don’t confuse opinions with facts. I try very hard not to when I’m posting.
My guess is there are no facts where Pettite’s and Moose’s 2009 contract status is concerned.
Just guesses.
Why would Pete kick you off his blog if you are wrong? People are wrong here every day.
patrick-
you are a smart kid( when you’re old ,you get to say things like that), how can the yankees have a good farm system when someone like gardner comes to the majors and can’t bunt better than you?
think about it. all he can do is run. it’s his reason for being,yet no one taught him how to bunt.
i don’t care what baseball prospectus says about the yankee farm system. it sucks.
just look at gardner for all you need to know. maybe the players are in place.maybe the potential is there. but doesn’t someone have to teach them how to play?
i think it would be simpler to turn all yankee minor leaguers over to the twins so they could learn to play the game and then get get them back as ready made major leaguers.
at least they’d be able to bunt.
lots of good opiniond on what people think Yanks will do or not do. I have been reading here for over 1 year now, and have not posted much because of some of the negativity that comes when some people respond to comments. Ihave no problem with healthy debates such as this on (Andy), i do think it is stupid to call people names because you don’t agree with their opinions.
On the other hand, in the time i have been reading this blog, I must say that among others, SJ44 has posted some very good points,imo. .
while i think the Yanks should go after C.C. strongly, i do not think we will collapse if we don’t get him, just that we will have another year year of baseball where if we get hit w/ alot of injuries and line up struggles we will all be debating what should have been done differently
The reason why a one year contract won’t work for Abreu is, he will have 3 year offers on the table when he hits the open market.
While a one year contract may work for the Yankees, it doesn’t work for Abreu.
That’s the give and take with player contracts/negotiations.
Will the Yankees offer Bobby a 2 year contract and would he take it, leaving money and a year on the table? I don’t know.
Some guys do leave money/years on the table. Last year, Mike Lowell had a 4 year contract offer on the table from the Phillies. He chose to turn it down and sign a 3 year deal (for less money) with the Red Sox because he liked playing in Boston and wasn’t interesting in starting over at this stage in his career with a new team and new city.
Posada had a 4 year offer from the Mets. That’s a fact. Had the Yankees not given him a 4th year, he would have signed with the Mets.
Its hard for fans to do but, you really have to seperate the business side from the games. This is a 6 BILLION dollar industry now and its getting bigger every year. The business side of the game is a fact of life and its not going away.
Its how team manage the business side from the playing side that determines long term success.
I know Bobby really likes playing for the Yankees and they really like him.
The issue from both sides is, how much? Enough to leave money on the table? I don’t know.
I think Bobby knows he’s not getting a 3 year offer from the Yankees.
It will be interesting to watch how it pans out this off-season.
SJ, I see what you are saying about Abreu. My only hope was, if the Yanks paid him $15 million for 09 only, when, say, his 3 year offer from some other team was $33/3, then Abreu might take the $15 million of 2009, then go get the three year deal or a two year deal, in 2010.
The premium for 09 might be worth it to the Yanks.
The “facts” re: Pettitte and Moose are simple.
The Yankees have told both players they want them back next year and both players are going to give it thought after the season concludes.
That’s where it is at.
Based on the comments from both Pettitte and Mussina the last few weeks, one can infer (I think correctly) that, they will either be back or retire.
I don’t believe either guy will play with another team in 2009. Its either the Yankees or carpools with the kids for both guys in 2009.
new post
yes, the more i think about it yankees need to outsource their minor league system to someone like the twins. it could be a great source of revenue for the twins ,and us yankee fans would have the pleasure of seeing young players actually be able to do the little things that win games.
I see your point wave.
The issue from the Yankees perspective is, balancing the need to get younger and more athletic with the need to have good players in the lineup. Those good player have to have contracts that still allow the team some flexibility.
In recent years, the Red Sox have done a good job with succeeding on that balancing act.
That’s why the Abreu case is a tough one for the Yankees. Obviously, he’s still a productive player.
However, he’s 35 years old and I can’t see the Yankees giving him a 3 year deal.
I think Bobby is going to get offers in the 40-45 million dollar range on the open market. I can’t see him getting less AAV (Average Annual Value) than JD Drew.
This is his last chance to cash in and, as Bill Raftery says, it would take “onions” on Abreu’s part to leave that much money on the table.
The question we don’t know the answer to yet are the results of the backchannel work teams do prior to free agency.
Teams get a pretty good idea who is on their radar (from conversations with various sources) as they approach free agency.
Some (like AJ Burnett telling several guys on the team he wants to play for the Yankees) are pretty overt. Some, are more behind the scenes.
That stuff, at least from the teams side, is VERY closely held info that usually doesn’t get out.
If their preliminary backchannel work tells them Tex is not interested in NY, that may effect the Abreu negotiations. You never know.
That’s info though we wouldn’t know until after the process is complete.
SJ, some great posts by you. Very insightful. My thinking is this, as you say its a big business, and theres no loyality except to the dollar which is fine. I think if they cannot upgrade Abreus position on the team (and I doubt they can) they will have to give him the three years, assuming that they`ll have to pay him the third year based on his past. The last few years on all these contracts with any player is a risk, but thats the leverage the players have now. Damon will be in the same situation in his last year probably too. I think that last year on Abreus contract is the cost of doing business in the world of ML baseball. I hope they hold Bobby.