Game 161: Yankees at Red Sox
-
-
- September
- 27
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YANKEES (88-72)
Gardner CF
Cano 2B
Giambi DH
A. Rodriguez 3B
Nady LF
I. Rodriguez C
Ransom SS
Miranda 1B
Cabrera RF
Ponson RHP
RED SOX (94-66)
Kotsay 1B
Lowrie 3B
Ortiz DH
Pedroia 2B
Cash LF
Varitek C
Bailey RF
Van Every CF
Velazquez SS
Matsuzaka RHP
Sidney Ponson (8-5, 5.21) vs. the Boston hitters.
Daisuke Matsuzaka (18-2, 2.80) vs. the Boston hitters.
Notes: The Yankees have won eight of nine and 11 of their last 13. They are 16-8 in September. … Boston was eliminated from the division race last night, making these final two games meaningless for all concerned.
SIR SIDNEY, REALLY? Sidney Ponson is 0-2, 11.42 in two starts against Boston this season. He is 3-13, 6.95 in 22 career starts. He is 2-5, 7.81 at Fenway Park. Why isn’t Ian Kennedy or Chase Wright or anybody else making this start?
CANO COMES ON: Robinson Cano has hit in nine straight games at 14 of 33 (.424) with five extra-base hits, 10 RBI and only one strikeout.
EARNING A SHOT: Brett Gardner is 13 of his last 40 (.325) with eight runs scored, seven RBI, four extra-base hits and four stolen bases.
SHUTDOWN CITY: Derek Jeter (left hand) isn’t going to play today and is doubtful for tomorrow.
PLAYING UP: The Yankees are 19-15 against the Red Sox and Rays this season.
Back later with updates.
UPDATE, 3:02 p.m.: Derek Jeter has been shut down for the rest of the season. His left hand is wrapped up and he can’t play. He talked a little bit about the end of the season and how he felt. I asked him how much his left hand was injured when he was hit by Daniel Cabrera back on May 21.
“It doesn’t matter now,” Jeter said. “I’m not going to make excuses.”
Jeter hit .232 over the next 28 games with six extra-base hits.
Mike Mussina talked about his quest for 20 wins and whether he would want to return next season. Moose said it comes down to whether he wants to retire now or keep going and chase 300 wins. Basically, if he comes back for one season he would probably pitch three more.
As for Brian Cashman, he’s driving back home tomorrow and will contemplate his decision. This has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with whether he wants to subject himself to holding on to one of the most pressurized jobs in sports. Being GM of the Yankees or Red Sox is different than being GM of the other 30 teams. Cashman had found a way to work for George Steinbrenner. But can he find a way to work with his sons? Keep in mind, Hank and Hal were not involved whatsoever until late in the 2007 season.
Cashman hasn’t decided yet. “It’s 50-50,” he said.
There could be big, big changes coming to the Yankees.
UPDATE, 4:38 p.m.: As I’m sure you guessed, the game has been delayed. No word on when they will start, only that the Red Sox think they can get the game in at some point.
Back later with any updates.
UPDATE, 5:00 p.m.: Here’s a good column from T.J. Simers of the L.A. Times on Joe Torre. Many of the Yankees, at least those who played for him, have called or texted Torre in the last few days.
UPDATE, 5:03 p.m.: This game is going to be called. Just a matter of a few seconds.
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on Saturday, September 27th, 2008 at 12:43 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
……Curious, how much is the paper paying you, Pete?
$70K, $80K?
I would think Pete makes more in the 150K-175K range plus travel, hotel, transportation etc. included.
If Cash is gone, so is Hughes. No way a new GM who has no emotional attachment to him will keep him around. He will use him to get a young position player. He is our only chip along with Cano and Cano has more value.
why is ponson starting? This makes absolutely no sense, let’s at least see a young guy instead of a fat toad.
I would love to see the Boston lineup vs. Matsuzaka!
We need to keep Ransom next season. I mean look at the chances of Jeter getting hit in the hand.
Keep going, Little G.
Very inflated numbers…..Very dedicated and hard working gent, but those numbers do not equate….
Hughes is still our future, man we gotta give these young guys a shot, better than watching sir sidney.
It’s so ironic, the Yanks have held their own against the competition (Rays and Sox), yet had trouble with what used to be called “the second-division suckers”.
It’s another reflection of how disappointing this season has been.
I don’t get Ponson starting either.
Heck, why not even Igawa instead? At least he’s under comtract for next season. Starting Ponson is just a waste of everyone’s time.
Shows you what the organization thinks of Kennedy.
You think a beat writer and blogger for a second tier newspaper is is making $170k? Are you functionally retarded?
I would guess between $60k and $70k. My first job with the Star Ledger paid $20,000.
Col 88,
Naw. I just think that Ian had his second chance and didn’t do spit with it.
He also underwhelmed in the postseason @ AAA.
Ian does have a lot of work to do. Just keep his head down and keep plugging away.
Why girardi? What are you thinking? I don’t care if he throws a perfect game
So now Coke has an ERA and Aceves has come back down to earth. This a night after a disappointing Sanchez outing. Gardner, is he hitting .230 yet?
Looks like Joba stands alone as the only kid who lived up to the hype.
So Tyler Kepner is making around $100K then—base salary, that is? (These are important figures to know for aspiring beat writers.)
If you get in to journalism, don’t expect to hit 50k for a long long long time.
Kennedy is a done as a Yankee. Atleast Hughes has some upside as a #3 starter, Kennedy is a #5 on the Nationals/Royals at best.
He is the prime example of why you should never trust September numbers. The guy is Igawa from the right side.
People are actually still discussing Kennedy? He sucks, end of story.
So now Coke has an ERA and Aceves has come back down to earth. This a night after a disappointing Sanchez outing. Gardner, is he hitting .230 yet?
Looks like Joba stands alone as the only kid who lived up to the hype.
You’re not real smart are you?
For anyone in NY, listening to WFAN this morning was an absolute delight.
Roberts and Beningno sounded almost suicidal. Typical Mets fans, they’ve already surrendered, and began to discuss the ramifications of a game tomorrow at Shea devoid of significance.
Naturally, they couldn’t help themselves from comparing it to the Yankees predicament. How pathetic not to be able to speak of your own team without referencing another that isn’t even your rival.
Mets Fans: either they’re at your throat, or they’re at your feet.
Either their gloating with malice and their wallowing in self-pity.
The weather might help them actually. Postponing today’s game would enable Santana to pitch tomorrow on regular rest.
I still think the Mets are looking at a playoff game on Monday.
Santana’s going to win his start, and the Brewers are going to lose one or both their next games. Sabathia, twice in a row, on 3-days rest. He’s going to have nothing past the 5th inning.
We need to keep Ransom next season. I mean look at the chances of Jeter getting hit in the hand.
since the day Ransom step foot in the Yankee clubhouse and hitting the 3 run home run in his at-bat, he already pushed Betemit out the door. He already made his case on why he should stay next season. By now, the whole front office should realize that Ransom is better than Betemit offensively and defensively.
What, are Cashman and Hughes siamese twins? Hal is the one running things and he loves Phil. If Cash walks, they are going to hire someone who believes in the same thing that Cash and Hal believe in (building with youth, using the FA market judiciously). As Mark Feinsand has said several times, the Yankees believe Phil is a top of the rotation starter. You don’t trade those guys, you just don’t. The fact that fans think Phil is a #3 at best doesn’t change a thing because they aren’t running the team.
Outside of Joba, the only talent worth watching the next couple of years is in the bullpen and Jackson. Though a high ceiling arm like Garcia or De La Rosa could move quickly from AA next year.
Other than that, not much until the Brackman, Betances, Romine, Montero, Suttle, De La Rosa, Garcia, McAllister, Laird, Vizcaino, Marshall, train rolls through. Thats where our real talent lies. No Brett Gardners or Ian Kennedys in that bunch that we have to overvalue.
“So now Coke has an ERA and Aceves has come back down to earth. This a night after a disappointing Sanchez outing. Gardner, is he hitting .230 yet?
Looks like Joba stands alone as the only kid who lived up to the hype.”
i want to throw up
“Atleast Hughes has some upside as a #3 starter.”
Come on!He just played one game well.
Maybe he can be #5 starter.
My people, please don’t write off IPK just yet.
Look around the AL. Do you remember how Edwin Jackson, Andy Sonanstine, Daniel Cabrera, Jeremy Guthrie, Jeremy Bonderman, and Irvin Santana all fared early in their careers?
Damn, look at Cliff Lee, he pitched an entire year in the minors last season?
IPK may suck. Then again, he may not either. It’s still far too early to tell.
I missed WFAN this a.m, but the Mets are still in it, so I’m not going to be jumping for joy. I’ll save that until they are officially eliminated. I will say this – the Mets, the media and the fans are gigantic hypocrites. Everyone personally just adores warm and fuzzy Jerry, so if the Mets don’t make the playoffs, he’s still coming back (because the players just love him so much and the media does, too)..even though this would be a pretty big collapse as well. Who cares if the players love Jerry if they don’t end up making the post-season? All I know is that Willie got roasted over the flames; if the Mutts collapse and Manuel is rehired, then that is tantamount to admitting that it was all personal with the Muttsies.
Outside of Joba, the only talent worth watching the next couple of years is in the bullpen and Jackson.
Really? You know this how?
I swear some of you people don’t have a clue.
Although Yankees can’t go into playoff game this season.
I still wish Yankees sweep Redsox in this series.
Peter,
You do an excellent job with this blog. Could you please list the start time of the game in your previews?
Cheers!
R
“Boston was eliminated from the division race last night, making these final two games meaningless for all concerned.”
I’m wondering if Mike Mussina would share your opinion on this!
Well, if the Brewers and Phillies win today, wouldn’t that eliminate the Mets anyway?
Kill-Schill I have written off Alfred E. Kennedy, but I am someone who can always be coaxed back. In his case however it will take a lot of coaxing. Certainly more than someone saying “please don’t write off IPK just yet.” But I know that where there is life all things are possible. So I will just wait and watch.
PHillies win elimnates them from the divison.
Milwaukee win guarantess at least a tie with the Mets.
Rebecca my understanding is that the Mets will be eliminated from the divison with a win by the Phils OR a loss by them, and from the WC with a win by the Brewers AND a loss by them.
Kill-Schill I have written off Alfred E. Kennedy
This coming form the person who thinks Ponson was great this season.
It amazes me when I see someone put something so succinctly when it takes me a million words.
Thanks Kill-Schill.
bob and trisha: Thanks =)
Go Marlins!
“This coming form the person who thinks Ponson was great this season.”
Only life’s biggest losers post the portion of a post that makes them look cool and forgets about the rest that would change the meaning of what they posted. Thanks for that Bob! You never fail to disappoint…
vtred September 27th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
So now Coke has an ERA and Aceves has come back down to earth. This a night after a disappointing Sanchez outing. Gardner, is he hitting .230 yet?
Looks like Joba stands alone as the only kid who lived up to the hype.
Stay in school.
Do you post on another board btw?
“This coming form the person who thinks Ponson was great this season.â€
Only life’s biggest losers post the portion of a post that makes them look cool and forgets about the rest that would change the meaning of what they posted. Thanks for that Bob! You never fail to disappoint…
How did that change the meaning?
You said you wrote off IPK.
Just amazes me that you could do that while leading the Ponson fan club, that’s all.
And only a loser, Bob, would twist the meaning of something someone else said to elevate their own status. Thanks for that Bob! You never fail to disappoint…
Now to remove the distortion from your attempted put down, I never said Ponson was “great” this season. I said that he was more than doing the job he was gotten to do. When it appeared he no longer was, I said that also.
Any more put downs I’ll need to clean up for you?
“How did that change the meaning?
You said you wrote off IPK.”
Let me show you.
“Kill-Schill I have written off Alfred E. Kennedy, but I am someone who can always be coaxed back.”
The bolded part of the sentence, the part after the comma, is meant to give additional meaning to the sentence.
Didn’t realize I was trying to elevate my own status, whatever that means.
Just pointing out the irony of you standing proud behind Ponson all season, but giving up on a young quality arm because he had a rough time adapting to the ML level.
It would be pretty amazing if the Yankees season ends with Mussina winning his 20th. I gotta say, considering this is a no playoff year, the Yankees have continued to entertain. They are kicking butt all month, they have an amazing final homestand, they had the outstanding closing ceremonies on Sunday night out drawing the Emmy’s on TV. Now they put the beatdown on Boston and end with a legendary pitcher going for 20 wins on the final day of the season.
Contrast that with the Mets, 2nd consecutive collapse in Sept, and what if Santana or more likely the pen lay an egg today? There would then be a very hostile crowd at a meaningless final game at Shea.
Hughes has always been projected as at least a number 2. Untill he proves otherwise I’m not going to be pessimistic and sell him short as a 3. Optimisim people.
Oh and the Yankees put the final nail in Boston’s divisional hopes.
Bob, I stood behind Ponson because he did bring something of quality to the Yankees and he did keep us in some games, and he did get some important wins for us. So I didn’t want to give up on him but never thought of him as the second coming of Cy Young. I appreciated that he was at least trying to help us out. And I also appreciated his humility when he stunk and even when he didn’t. He took responsibility when he gave up three runs in a game that we ended up losing. Geeze, three runs isn’t a lot.
I really got down on Kennedy because of his stupidity in assessing his game skills and his cavalier attitude after every loss! People killed me for saying that but everyone saw it with their own eyes when he was called up for the last time. I probably gave up more on the attitude than the results since I believe that if there is no introspection and admission that improvement is necessary, then there can be no improvement.
Which is why I said I am willing to wait and see.
Funny that this whole season came down to chen-ming wang/ the non aquisition of Johan Santana/ Jorge going on the D/L. Everyone tried to stay positive while it was all going down but we probably should have been more realistic. Still if the Yanks finish with 89 or 90 wins you can’t call the season a total loss, just a tough year in the division.
Jeff, you hit the nail on the head.
There’s no postseason, but thee are still plenty of reasons to watch.
I already made three bold (?) predictions this morning and I am going to add another to the list. These are my gut feelings on Yankee life but I am not going to fall apart if they don’t happen. In other words these are things I believe will happen but I don’t great emotional investment in them if they don’t happen (except maybe for Abreu
1. Cashman will definitely be back
2. Abreu will definitely be back.
3. Robby will definitely not be traded.
4. Moose will definitely be back.
Those are my stories and I’m sticking to them!
* don’t have
I am reading Yankee tea leaves not giving my wish list.
Trisha, you give up on IPK because of his attitude? He’s a kid who said a few dumb things.
Have you followed the career of your buddy Ponson? The guy is scum.
I bet the blow sox start all their regs, just to try and deny Moose his twenty. God I hope the bats are alive for Him.
The organization themselves have given up on Kennedy. They gave him one start in LA and shipped him off. We let Ponson/Rasner kill us for months while IPK was dominating the minors.
The message is clear. He will be gone this off-season, much like Clippard was.
“There would then be a very hostile crowd at a meaningless final game at Shea.”
Jeff, I hope the Mets die like dogs, but as a fan, I’d take being in the thick of it in the last weekend over being dead in the water a month ago.
Whenever you’re reduced to individual stats and “Ooh, that was cool” moments as opposed to actual team achievement, it sucks.
So…Abreu pinch runs today to try to score his 100th run?
I don’t think the problem with Kennedy for the Yankees was so much the way he was pitching as it was his attitude.
The Yankees might not care too much about off-field antics, but saying things like ‘I’m going to make them look stupid’ and ‘I think I threw the ball well’ when you obviously didn’t…
…not a good idea.
If CC does not sign with Yanks, it is highly likely Robby will be traded along with some minor leaguers for a front line pitcher. They will try to sign Hudson for the second base.
“I am reading Yankee tea leaves not giving my wish list.”
I think that in the end, you’re 3 for 4 for sure.
Hudson would be a big time mistake.
Hal loves Phil, really? Does he even know what hand he throws from? Could he tell the difference between him and Edwar in a crowd?
Hal knows nothing about baseball and has never said he ‘loves’ Phil. He said he still believes in the KIDS, and mentioned Kennedy as well. Does that mean he loves Ian too?
The new GM will decide what to do. No good GM will work here anyway if Hal tries to control him, so right off the bat Hal will be in no position to make demands of who to keep. The GM will determine that.
“I don’t think the problem with Kennedy for the Yankees was so much the way he was pitching as it was his attitude.”
I think it was probably both, Rebecca. His attitude wasn’t much worse than his pitching was.
“Whenever you’re reduced to individual stats and “Ooh, that was cool†moments as opposed to actual team achievement, it sucks.”
Exactly. I am irked to no end thinking about all the lost opportunities this team gave away to be in this race.
Philly can clinch a postseason berth with a win (Moyer!).
Phils & Brews control their destiny. Mets are 2 GB in the division, 1 GB in the WC with 2 games to play.
Basically, their only hope is the Brews lose.
“I bet the blow sox start all their regs, just to try and deny Moose his twenty. God I hope the bats are alive for Him.”
Tomorrow we will see Yanks A lineup probably with the exception of Jeter. And I believe that Mussina will win his 20th as Sox will still rest some of their regulars in prepartion for the playoffs.
Bob, I gave up on Kennedy because he never seemed to realize he needed improvement. I did not give up on Ponson because unlike you, I do not think the guy is “scum”. The guy helped us beat the Mets, give up one run to Tampa Bay, went 4 and 4 for the Yanks in games where he is the pitcher of record, and likely ended up in games where the Yankees won – or should have won, even where he wasn’t the pitcher of record. That, by the way, is 4 more wins than Kennedy game the Yankees.
So if he helped out the Yanks, I am grateful. The effort was there even when the results weren’t, and the recognition of failure was there when it should have been, and even sometimes when it wasn’t necessary.
You and I value different things. There is no crime in that. The difference is that I am not putting you down for not giving up on Kennedy. I believe there is room for many and any opinions.
Newark Bears, I think you’re confusing Hal with Hank.
Kennedy isn’t apart of our future. The guy can barely throw 90 MPH.
We don’t need #5 starters, we need top of the rotation starters. He will never win an open competition with Hughes. Aceves has leapfrogged him on the depth chart.
A lot of things have to go wrong next year for Kennedy to even sniff the Bronx in anything other than a doubleheader.
Holy crap Syracuse, why couldn’t you do this when I was there?!
Rebecca I agree with that assessment on Kennedy also.
Thanks.
“Hudson would be a big time mistake.”
Why?
He will be better than many 2Bs in the league.
Do not expect them to replace Cano with similar production. The gain is getting a front line SP.
Hal loves Phil, really? Does he even know what hand he throws from? Could he tell the difference between him and Edwar in a crowd?
Hal knows nothing about baseball and has never said he ‘loves’ Phil. He said he still believes in the KIDS, and mentioned Kennedy as well. Does that mean he loves Ian too?
The new GM will decide what to do. No good GM will work here anyway if Hal tries to control him, so right off the bat Hal will be in no position to make demands of who to keep. The GM will determine that.
I didn’t realize Hal was so controlling and knows nothing abut baseball.
What was his score when he took the MLB SATs? They must have been really bad since you are saying he knows nothing
I amn’t having a go at him cos I am sure Jeter has played hurt in about half the games this season, but Girardi is clearly a guy who acknowledges the importance of numbers to his payers (like his wanting to help Muss get his 20th win), so does anyone else wondering how much the fact that Jeter is sitting on exactly .300 has to do with his shut down?
And don’t get me wrong, there is nothing to be gained from his playing, I just wonder if one more hitless at bat and he’d be on .299, is merely a coincidence.
BTW what are the odds of Ransom taking Betemit’s spot next season. He seems to offer the same defensive backup options and the same right handed pop in his bat, but cheaper and with more upside. I’d let Betemit walk.
“I bet the blow sox start all their regs, just to try and deny Moose his twenty. God I hope the bats are alive for Him.”
Sox probably will play their starters but not to beat moose. They’ll want to get some hacks in off a good pitcher to get ready for Wednesday.
Kennedy is awful.
He is on the Yankees and he is has a low ceiling, he isin’t going to get anymore chances. These are not the Royals who will give him years to figure it out.
Actually, you need #1 starters AND #5 starters, and if your #5 starter can be better than most other teams’ #5 starter, you’re in pretty good shape.
I myself have no idea what the Yankees are thinking regarding IPK. My feeling is that if a good deal comes along, he could move. But I DO NOT think he is being punished. I think they realized he needed a lot of seasoning. And there’s no reason to throw him back up there now. Leave well enough alone, and call the season a season.
Who’d think that I’d be watching Mets baseball on mlbtv? Since we’re not in the hunt I really am ejoying watching other teams make it – or fail depending upon the team
And I’m enjoying watching the down-to-the-wire process and being greatful that for once my stomach isn’t the one in knots. Truth is that since the 2001 ending, I have never been able to watch the postseason without angst!
SA: MLB SATs?
Now you’ve given me an idea…
You know who I can I see back as a GM if Cashman declines and would have the balls to rebuild, Buck. Buck loves Hughes and Joba and likes the Yankees farmsystem so if Cashman is undecided Buck Showalter or how about Kim Ng she earned it w/ what she did w/ the Dodgers.
Newark – Totally agree. If Hal demands that the new GM keep Hughes and whoever else, no good GM will work here. Only the Jim Bowdens and Steve Phillips’ of the world will work under those conditions where e is the owner’s puppet.
So, if Hal wants any good GM to come here, he has to offer full autonomy and not give him any guidelines.
I think that people assume that Hal knows a lot about baseball. He doesn’t. He’s learning on the job and has been there for 1 year. That’s why he’s working closely with Brian and Joe G. Hal’s no dummy, he’s going to soak up all that he can and be THE authority within the organization. In order to learn on the job, you have to be on the job. Ahem, Hank.
BTW since the future of the middle infield is up for debate (and for the record I think Cano could rebound with a .340 average next season) but if we trade Cano, why not move Jeter to 2nd base and look for a new shortstop instead of a new 2nd baseman?
Why not just make Hank the GM?
“You know who I can I see back as a GM if Cashman declines and would have the balls to rebuild, Buck. ”
I stated this in the last thread.
I still think Cashman should go and we need a change here. Buck as GM and Stick as advisor will be a great thing. They built the last dynasty it would be great to see it again.
Brian M: Because he’s Derek Jeter.
Jeter won’t play because he can’t hit. He was grimacing just from the weight of the glove on his hand last night.
Remember this is the same injury that he got from the Cabrera pitch.
Doreen’s right. The team with the best starting five go the farthest.
Except for the first series of the regular & post seasons, you never know who you’re going to line up against.
SA: MLB SATs?
lol
Ya know, if there was such a thing, I think Hal would do okay. At least I would think he would study his butt off for the test.
Hank…now I’m not so sure.
I can’t believe Mo has been pitching all season with a bum shoulder. He shouldn’t have lied and mislead us.
Nolasco,
You choose TODAY to have the worst start of your life? C’mon, boy, get some outs.
mel,
Excellent post. Hal (and Hank) have been away from baseball for 20 years. They are just getting back in the fold now. They are new to being owners and understanding the game. It’s not like these guys are baseball lifers. Thats why he is showing so much trust in Cashman to guide them along and thats why Stick is back in the mix. They have a lot to learn about the game. He doesn’t want to screw things up so he is letting the baseball people do their jobs. Thats why he will not force Hughes or anybody on the new GM, he will trust their judgement.
Brian M -
For the sake of a discussion, let’s say Jeter says, okay, I’ll move to 2nd. Who’s your shortstop?
“BTW since the future of the middle infield is up for debate (and for the record I think Cano could rebound with a .340 average next season) but if we trade Cano, why not move Jeter to 2nd base and look for a new shortstop instead of a new 2nd baseman?”
Good luck Jeter moving to 2B. He needs to be forced.
If he is that selfless, he would have moved from SS when A-Rod was acquired (I know I am rattling some with this statement, but it is fact).
Ian Kennedy is a non-prospect
SA:
Giving me ideas is a very dangerous thing.
Uh, yes, Newark Bears, Hal does love Phil, but don’t let your blind hatred for the kid get in the way. I’m not going to do the work for you. If you are interested, you can find a few interviews that Newsday did with Hal and he specifically mentions Phil.
Fredo, which 3 of the 4 do you think will take the day?
Well, Joe G. passed his BSATs with a 2400. THAT’s why he got the job.
Uh Oh
Are we gonna be tested later?
mel -
You are so bad!
Sorry, Mel, I disagree with you. Just because Hal is new to this job does not mean he doesn’t know his baseball. Hank is a know-nothing, but not his brother.
I’ll go out on a limb and say Joba, Phil (Hughes), Cano, and Jackson will not be traded.
I sincerely doubt Hal Steinbrenner could pick Phil Hughes out of a lineup. However, he does want Cashman as his GM and by extension is a Phil Hughes believer.
SA: Indeed.
As to the Yanks not giving Kennedy a chance to sort himself out, why wouldn’t they? They don’t want to sell low on their top prospects. He probably wont be a starter on opening day unless they give him a couple of months to keep Joba’s spot warm for him as a sort of trial run, but he’ll get plenty of innings anyway.
Remember, over the last two seasons we have had Ponson, Clippard, Karstens, Wright, Pavano, Igawa, DeSalvo and others throwing a lot of important innings. Before that it was Shawn Chacon, Aaron Small and Al Leiter.
It wasn’t part of the plan, but with a five guy rotation, expect at least one point in the season where two of them are out of action, and at least one guy to miss several months. Kennedy will get a shot, unless they get a good trade offer over the winter. But Cashman knows he needs several decent backup options. Aceves, Kennedy and Hughes will compete for a starters spot, but those who don’t get it will still get at least 8 -10 starts.
my prediction
Opening day rotation
Sabathia
Wang
Mussina
Pettitte
Hughes
With Joba starting the season in the pen and taking a spot in mid-season. I hope Muss is back but if he isn’t Kennedy and Aceves will battle for that spot until Joba is ready. Coke will be in the pen, not the rotation.
Right, Hank Hal – because no one would want to be the GM of the Yankees. Requiring that Phil be held onto is hardly an unreasonable demand by an owner – sorry, let me edit that. It’s hardly an unreasonable demand by an owner in the eyes of objective fans who know talent when they see it and understand that developing young talent requires patience.
“I’ll go out on a limb and say Joba, Phil (Hughes), Cano, and Jackson will not be traded.”
This means you aren’t expecting the Yankees to trade for an impact player, right?
Betsy,
I didn’t say that Hal doesn’t know baseball. I said that people are overestimating his acumen in running a FO. The dude was a hotelier.
I also said he was smart. And smart people hire good people to do what they don’t know yet. And the smartest people are able to learn from those they hire.
“I’ll go out on a limb and say Joba, Phil (Hughes), Cano, and Jackson will not be traded.”
I agree with every one except Cano.
It depends on whether they can sign CC.
If CC is not signed, they still need a front line SP and only Cano can get one.
Trisha:
Only one of your 4 I’m iffy on is Abreu. I think Cashman, Hughes and Cano will be with the organization next year. Just not sure how they are going to play the Abreu situation.
Buck is the only logical choice.
Who else is out there? Does Buck even want to be a GM anymore?
I also agree with those who say Hal cannot make conditions with his new GM of who to keep and not to keep.
Brian, there is almost no chance the Yankees bring back both Andy and Moose.
Hal is probably never going to truly know baseball. His father was an active owner for most of 30 years and never knew the game.
As someone suggested earlier, he is smart enough to have people working for him who do know the game.
Phil is so mediocre that we now have to assume that his support from Hal means nothing because Hal knows nothing? LOL……unbelievable.
“Brian, there is almost no chance the Yankees bring back both Andy and Moose.”
Rebecca, it can happen if they can not sign CC and Burnett.
BBFan: It can, but it’s unlikely. Especially if Moose wins tomorrow and decides to retire.
I know Jeter would need to be old he is moving, but it needs to happen some time, and he doesn’t have the power to justify moving to 1st base and the outfield spots are filling up. He’d be a great 2nd baseman though. As to my short stop replacement, I don’t know. It’d have to be someone brought in on a trade (with Cano possibly going the other way) since we don’t have anyone in house who is ready to take the job.
If Arizona loose Hudson to free agency they might be interested in a Stephen Drew – Robbie Cano swap. Their team seems to be falling apart a bit and lots of holes are appearing. They have some tough choices to make with their bullpen this winter so maybe packaging someone like Veras or Edwar would help push it through. Cano is more expensive than Drew but the money is low enough that it shouldn’t be a deal killer if the other parts are right. Just a thought of the top of my head – so don’t be too cruel
If Cashman walks, they will let Stick decide what to do. He is next in the chain of command as far as baseball people go.
If he doesn’t want to take over for a bit, then he will recommend somebody or snatch up a young exec from Oakland or Arizona and groom him.
They are not going to bring in some has-been like Jim Duquette to be the GM, they will stay with Stick and take it from there. They are going to stay with who they trust. Now, stick may very well recommended Showalter, but its not like Hank/Hal are going to go shopping for a new GM themselves.
I too am wondering where this mythical quote from Hal about Hughes is. I have never read anything of the sort.
I remember he said he hasn’t given up on the kids, but I don’t remember him singling out Hughes with any kind of affection.
Brian M -
That’s interesting. But don’t you think Cano and a pitcher is overpaying? Or would Arizona also give something besides Drew?
Mel, you wrote I think that “people assume that Hal knows a lot about baseball. He doesn’t..”. I interpreted that literally – that you meant that he knows nothing about the game (like his brother, who thinks winning baseball entails signing the biggest names and highest priced FAs). If you really meant that he doesn’t know that much about running a franchise, ok, I will agree with you there.
My point about Hal was that I honestly believe he knows his baseball and he knows that young players need time to develop. It doesn’t take a genius to recognize that Phil Hughes has a lot of talent, but not everyone (hello Hank) has the patience to allow that talent to develop. Whether Hal is a novice at running the team or not, he knows enough to think Phil is a talent worth waiting on. To me, that says a lot. Hank is more likely to want to trade every young player (no matter what he says about the Yankees needing a good farm system) for the next big FA. It’s just his nature.
Here’s Santana again, taking the ball on short rest and saving the Day for the Mets. Now thats a real ace. I wish we had him.
“Or would Arizona also give something besides Drew?”
They won’t give up Drew anyway.
Do you guys realize that the Mets might miss the post season even with Santana?
And we would have made it without him, had we an offense to speak of?
“Do you guys realize that the Mets might miss the post season even with Santana?
And we would have made it without him, had we an offense to speak of?”
That tells Girardi did a good job.
Fredo -
And Derek Jeter is not going to 2nd. We’re having a very theoretical discussion here.
Fredo my 4th was that Moose would be brought back.
Are you still there with 3 of 4?
Pete:
I think it makes sense to start Ponson tonight. Even though Boston may not be playing a lot of their starters, its still Boston, meaning they will have some mean hitters, a ridiculous hitter’s park, and the Boston crowd. Bringing in a guy like Wright or Kennedy puts a lot of pressure on their backs considering it could be their last start in the majors for a long time. He doesn’t want to have their confidences crushed, while nobody cares what happens to Ponson.
The upside for getting Kennedy or Wright some more big-league experience is strongly outweighed by the potential for a 2nd or 3rd inning exit and their having crushed confidence during a long winter.
I never thought they’d bring back both Pettitte and Moose either, but they I figured if they signed Sabathia to give them a lefty, they’d let Pettitte walk and bring back Moose. But they have already all but re-signed Andy.
Are they really going to let the only starter who has been healthy all yr (low stress delivery since he’s noty a hard thrower and has clean mechanics), who is a very positive pressence in the club house and is the leader in wins and ERA walk when a 1yr deal might well bring him back? If we are going to give the young pitchers a chance to develop, and don’t look now but in another yr or so we might have to find a spot for McAllister, then we can’t be signing average guys to 4 yr deals.
I mean is anybody really hoping we sign Burnett? He has worse numbers than Moose, would require more yrs and more dollars per yr to sign, could have an NY meltdown and is an injury waiting to happen. We might as well give him Pavano’s number. At best he is Jared Wright, at worst he is Pavano.
The scary truth is that after Sabathia (who has never shown any interest in pitching in NY – and has said he wants to pitch on the west coast) there are no other aces out there. And offering them $15M a yr wont change the fact they are average.
We NEED Sabathia, but after that we need short term deals and reliable guys who can pitch in NY and not break down too often. With those criteria, our best bets are Muss and Pettitte.
I know it feels a bit too much like bringing back a failed rotation, but we should get Andy a bit cheaper, and add a healthy yr of Wang, and hopefully Sabathia, and a better hughes and it with an offense playing even a little better than this yr we’d be good for at least another 8 – 10 wins.
I wish people would realize the NL really isn’t a hitters league. Just look at Super Jeff Karstens in the NL and Rich Harden. Is Santana an ace yes would there be other SP I’d take over him you damn skippy.
Doreen – maybe Cano and pitcher would be overpaying but I am just throwing an idea out there. Truth is that right now there aren’t a lot of good SS. With Cano’s stock being low right now we’d have to overpay to get it done. I don’t know that we’d be a better team for it (personally I hope Cano stays) just thinking out loud
If Hudson leaves Arizona I can actually see them trading for Kennedy from St Louis as a cheap replacement.
Mets have 28 blown saves, 11 of them in the 9th inning.
Give them an AVERAGE closer. Heck, give them Jose Veras and Edwar Ramirez and they win 100 games running away.
I don’t think people realize how bad their bullpen is. There is nobody who can pitch a full inning.
Brian M -
With trades and with FAs, timing is everything. You just have to hope that in your season of need the right players are available and/or that you have the right pieces to complete a trade.
Y26, I think most of us realize how bad the Mets blowpen is.
I think everyone realizes how bad the Mets bullpen is.
Unless you’ve been living under a rock all season.
If Santana had 3 years left on his deal or something and we didn’t have to give him 7/$150 on top of prospects, then Santana would have been here in a second.
Same thing if Andy didn’t come back, that is what slowed down the trade.
Hal didn’t want to bloat payroll. He had already authorized the A-Rod, Posada, and Rivera deals and didn’t want to carry $220 million.
anyone have thoughts on when the rockies will trade for matt holliday? this winter or at the deadline?
I don’t think people realize how bad their bullpen is.
Oh I think we know
The worst hitter outside of Coors field MikeEff, I’d rather get Ryan Spillborough or Lastings Milledge. We need versatility, speed and grit, and youth in that OF.
yes, why not IPK or Wright! it would make it more interesting to watch, and Ponson’s not gonna be back.
“Tank
September 27th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
If Cashman walks, they will let Stick decide what to do. He is next in the chain of command as far as baseball people go. If he doesn’t want to take over for a bit, then he will recommend somebody or snatch up a young exec from Oakland or Arizona and groom him. They are not going to bring in some has-been like Jim Duquette to be the GM, they will stay with Stick and take it from there. They are going to stay with who they trust. Now, stick may very well recommended Showalter, but its not like Hank/Hal are going to go shopping for a new GM.”
Tank: Interesting. You the first person who have posted this. Do you know this? Or only speculating, like the rest of us?
Bill Smith is ultimately the on who nixed the Santana trade. We offered Hughes and they got greedy and wanted Tabata, Jackson, or Kennedy as the 2nd player and we refused. Then Hank made those “I’m not letting other teams ask more from us” and the thing invariably fell apart. Then Hal played the role of damage control and said he didn’t want to pay the money.
If they had taken Hughes, Melky, Marquez when we first offered it to them, Santana would be here. Smith got greedy and then tried to put the Sox vs. the Yanks and everything got screwed up.
Losing Chien-Ming Wang to a foot injury in June was brutal. Losing Chamberlain was fatal. Neither made another start.
“We had one ace go down, and we produced another No. 1,†General Manager Brian Cashman said. “Then he went down, too.â€
That quotes about sums it up.
Quilvio Imposter:
exactly.
unfortunately, we are lining up to pay the same $$$$ for CC (if we’re even lucky to sing him).
who would you rather have: Santana (including loss of those prospects) or CC?
not that it matters.
People unless you haven’t notice Stick has time after time said he does not want to be the GM, do you guys know what a GM has to deal with, do you know how old he is ? how time consuming and stressful it would be, don’t expect Stick at all to be the GM.
I think this turns out like the A-rod saga.
Cashman will say that he wants to move on and then we start looking for a GM. Then Cashman surveys the field and decides it is better to come back here and after 2 weeks on the market, he comes back to the Yankees and works out a deal.
I also predict there will be some tense moments during those 2 weeks, like Hal interviewing Steve Phillips for the vacant GM job.
But the drama will subside and Cashman will be back,
“R-Tek
September 27th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Bill Smith is ultimately the on who nixed the Santana trade. We offered Hughes and they got greedy and wanted Tabata, Jackson, or Kennedy as the 2nd player and we refused. Then Hank made those “I’m not letting other teams ask more from us†and the thing invariably fell apart. Then Hal played the role of damage control and said he didn’t want to pay the money. If they had taken Hughes, Melky, Marquez when we first offered it to them, Santana would be here. Smith got greedy and then tried to put the Sox vs. the Yanks and everything got screwed up.”
yes. And then later on, Minnesota making the counter-offer: Wang, Kennedy, Hilligoss.
Brandon: Tienes que ser loco para ser GM.
Trisha:
My bad. I somehow read Hughes in there.
On Mussina, I don’t think he plays for anyone but the Yankees….but I’m not sure he plays.
I really want Cashman back, not just cos I think he’d do the best job but also because if he does come back it will be because Hank has agreed to keep out of his way and let him run the team.
I was reading today that Kim Ng is in the running for the Seattle job. I suspect that if Cash goes the Yanks will want someone with more experience but she was an asst here for a while so it’d be interesting to see if she got an interview.
Two weeks in the postseason is an eternity. Cash will decide by Wed what he wants to do. His choices are stay with the team and negotatiate a deal, say he wants to test the market, say he wants a year off or say he is leaving. I don’t think he wants to go out like this. I bet he negotiates at least a 2-3 year deal.
I’m not saying Stick will be the GM, but Hank/Hal will work with him on finding the next GM. Stick has tremendous connections in the industry. How else are Hank/Hal going to find a GM? They are going to lean on Stick for advice.
Stick may agree to take over just for this off-season and groom a young exec. in the meantime. Or Stick will work with Afterman or somebody in the interim.
Either way, it is going to be chaos in the short term if Cashman leaves
hey brandon–spilborgs is a year older than matt holliday— they both have similar splits as well
matt- .332 vs .308
ryan 333 vs .299
Why not just make George the GM? He still has one last run in him.
One other thing which could bring Cashman back is that he is negotiating his new contract with Hank ‘I’ll only pay twice what anyone else would’ Steinbrenner.
Brandon: Tienes que ser loco para ser GM.
Yup.
hey brandon–spilborgs is a year older than matt holliday— they both have similar splits as well
And he’s the better fielder/cheaper option.
Wow. Florida is getting all they want and more from Ole Miss today.
MLB SAT preview question
4. A _____ happens when two outs are made on one play
A: Two-out play
B: Double play
C: Stupid Baserunner
D: Derek Jeter was batting, wasn’t he?
Some ideas for veteran GMs–
Jim Duquette, Dave Littlefield, Steve Phillips, Jim Bowden, Bill Basavi, Tim Perpetua etc.
rather have Dan Duquette
Rebecca, your example is hysterical! I’m multitasking so if you’ve given more than one test question I didn’t see the others!
Santana works out of a bases drunk jam. He’s at 76 pitches thru 5. Mets will require some pen help today at some point.
LOL
Santana– about 15 pitches per inning. Not sure how far they will extend him on short rest but he will atleast go 7.
He is an ace, this is what he does.
“rather have Dan Duquette”
Rather have chicken croquettes.
Steve Phillips as GM?
LOL hahas, might as well kiss our farm system good bye.
Think the Mets are praying it starts pouring for the next 8 hours straight right about now? lol
Brandon –
by watching the Marlins game right now, who would you trade for besides Hermida due to aribation eligable? For me, I would say Cantu (the Rays gave up on him too early and could be our 1B), Nolasco, and Baker.
offseason moves
sign cc
sign manny for RF and let abreu walk
sign sheets for 1B
trade hughes and ransom for jake peavy
trade britton, edwar, and rasner for ryan spilborghs
trade matsui to the giants for jonathan sanchez
WOW did anyone see Hanley with that play?!
Trisha, it’s the only one I’ve shared so far.
Hypothetical:
Mets and Brewers win today. Brewers are guaranteed no worse than a playoff game on Monday. Do you hold off on using Sabathia on short rest and have him in case you need him on Monday, on regular rest facing a non-Santana Mets pitcher.
Marlins have an excellent young nucleus.
I would trade Hughes for Cameron Maybin
Hanley what a play WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who have a better chance of making the playoffs, the Mets or the Yankees?
I save him for the playoff game.
Cubs are playing for nothing and will not play any of their regulars. I take my chances with Gallardo/Bush or somebody else and hope the home momentum carry us.
Also, you may not even need to start CC on Monday (even though obviously you will). Who is pitching for the Mets? Pelfrey went yesterday, Perez is going tomorrow. That means the only option is old man Pedro on 3 days rest or John Niese/Nelson Figuroa.
Then the question becomes do you gamble with Bush or somebody on Monday and save Sabathia for the real playoffs?
“trade hughes and ransom for jake peavy
trade britton, edwar, and rasner for ryan spilborghs
trade matsui to the giants for jonathan sanchez”
you must be crazy…yankees could NEVER get any of those done now…
This is one of the most exciting playoff races in some time. So many things can happen, pitchers on short rest, one game playoffs, no wild card safety nets etc.
Fredo: would pitch CC, on monday.
“Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Ex-bookendis
September 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Ok, i figured out why my vag smells. It’s because i sit here all day and talk to you guys. It looks like a dirty wallet down there.”
wow.
“trade hughes and ransom for jake peavy
trade britton, edwar, and rasner for ryan spilborghs
trade matsui to the giants for jonathan sanchezâ€
Sad thing is you probably think all of that is realistic.
Super play by Hanley!
Bellevue Hospital alert
If I have a chance to clinch a playoff birth with a win, I pitch CC. He is as automatic as you can get.
Then I pitch Sheets on short rest in game 1 on Wednesday (or if I’m lucky enough to start the playoffs on Thursday everyone can be on normal rest) and CC on 3 days rest in game 2. Just reverse the order. I also have CC available on short rest in game 5 if needed.
My guess: if Moose wins 20, he shuts it down for good. Just a hunch…his brother blogs over on MASN and has been leaving clues.
Cashman will be back. Probalby just wants to make HAnk sweat a little and get a little extra $$$ from him.
Or at least that’s what I hope.
He may not be perfect, but God knows who they’d get to replace him and I’d rather not take the risk.
if Cashman were to leave before his ‘youth movement’ plan matures, he’d be somewhat of a quitter.
the average person faces far more pressures than a GM making millions ever will, even the GM of the Yankees. Tons more. Jeez, if this is anything more than a negotiating posture, suck it up Brian!
I’m surprised that the Brewers haven’t tried to pitch CC in back to back games once this year. Maybe they experiment with it in the playoffs.
For me, I would say Cantu
I believe Cantu is a FA this offseason.
Besides Hermida I’d take Maybin but they will never deal him. He is thier future 5 tool corner stone prospect, Hanley, Cameron and Andrew Miller will be stapled to that roster.
Here’s what I look for in a future Yankee OF a guy that can get on base and go first to third or home on a double. A guy who is athletical, a burner, a gap closer, and a good route runner. I’d also want atleast 15 HR pop from him.
Jorge,
I can see them pitching CC every game of a 5 game series. There’s a rest day in between games, no?
And it’s a rain delay at Fenway…again.
Brandon–You want Tabata back, don’t you?
No se por que los trolls a me se gustan…lo sabes?
Not this crap again.
Honestly.
George
You are right. If Cashman walks, he is admitting that his plan and ‘youth movement’ was a completely failure and he wants to get out while he ca and go to greener pastures.
He will conveniently blame it on Hank, even though he is an irrelevant figure and the media will feel sorry for him. Hank is an easy target. But the real reasons he walks will be because his plan has failed.
Hal is giving him the chance to carry out his plan, and he is the one with the real power (though he did overrule Cashman on A-Rod, Posada, MO), so if Cashman walks he is telling the world that the youth movement was a mistake.
As usual though, the meidiots will blame Hank. They dismiss him as irrelevant then conveniently paint him as a dictator and this polarizing figure when it suits them.
Yes I would .
This will be Cashman’s opportunity to put his stamp on the Yankee organization.
I think he’ll be back.
Cashman’s youth movement was not a complete failure.
ahha brandon whats athletical
“A guy who is athletical”
If there is a rain out today, don’t be surprised if Dice-K gets matched up with Mussina instead of Wakefield. That would be a death blow to the 20 win season.
If there is a DH tomorrow, make sure Mussina and Wakefield are matched up in the same game.
Ricky Nolasco is just filthy, he looks even better than Santana.
Because Mussina couldn’t possibly beat Dice-K?
Good grief.
mel,
If he walks, thats what he would be admitting. Why else would he walk? He has the owner in his corner and Hank is all bark and no bite.
His wife is from this area, his kids go to school here, he has been here his whole life… the only logical reason for him to walk is because he realizes things will get worse before they get better.
Otherwise, if Hal is giving him the chance to see his plan through, why wouldn’t he stay?
Too soon to say Cashman’s youth movement is a failure. For now he gets an incomplete.
I believe Cantu is a FA this offseason.
Cantu is going to be aribation eligable this offseason. Not a free agent to be.
The Marlins will have a massive firesale.
This Marlins team is fun to watch. Athletes, power, speed, good defense, young power arms etc.
I wish we could develop a team like this but we don’t have these types of prospects.
“Dont worry everyone! Things will be ok. I just poured a little left over bacon grease on my vajajay and its nice and wet now”
you don’t have anyone convinced.
shut the helll up.
Way to go LoPuca. Nolasco could’ve done better than that.
Dice-K is 19-2 with a 2.88 ERA. Nobody has hit him this year except the Cardinals.
A tall order for Mussina to beat him.
vinny b
Do you realize when you copy and paste what the idiot writes that Pete has twice as many posts to delete?
Exactly, Pat. The timing of it ALL happening this year was an incomplete, but I dont know that that was ever a realistic expectation.
It might be a few years before we know exactly what kind of grade to give it. But there is definitely no way anyone could give a definitive grade at this point.
GO AROD
Can anyone tell me why Ponson is pitching today, instead of one of the young starters?
What a gem Santana is pitching! Man. (Like the “Smooth” song, too)
Yep. Its about as idiotic an action as the original comment, what a maroon.
Is the game looking like it might get played today at any point?
if only cashman traded hughes, kennedy, melky, tabata for santana
I don’t think Cashman is coming back – I think the hassle of working for Hank has just gotten the best of him. This has nothing to do with not wanting to see his plan through to fruition (and please, GMAB about how he’d be admitting it was a failure. The plan is only a failure to hypocritical Yankee fans who need to have their ID and Ego fed immediately. It has everything to do with a still-young man who wants to be able to do his job without having to get gray hairs worrying about one of his owners saying nasty comments and embarrasing statements.
To give Pete something to post about, SteveB.
Santana pitching game of his life right now. This is what a true ace does for a team.
Poor Jeter – I wonder if he should have another x-ray. I know the other one indicated his wrist wasn’t broken, but sheesh – this looks pretty bad.
Santana is a special, special pitcher. He hasn’t lost in 3 months. He pitches big game after big game. Yet again, he saves them. And what is even more remarkable is the adjustments he made. He has sacrificed Ks because he knows he has to go deep into games now so he has learned to be more economical but can still get a K anytime he needs it.
cashman will go. tune in to SNY to see why.
Angel, I can tell you that we have had torrential rain that has stopped as suddenly. I’m assuming that the weather must be similar in craptown usa.
But when their torrents stop and come is going to make the difference!
Oddessy,
Ever have an incompetent buttface of a boss who won’t let you do your job? Think Michael from the Office. It’s enough to make anyone quit. That’s the only drawback to the Yankee job. The owners. That’s definitely a factor to consider when making the decision.
Gonna be an interesting off season, that’s for sure.
You couldn’t even get Kevin Slowley for Hughes and Kennedy, let alone Santana.
What a terrible non-trade. I’m not even upset anymore, I’m just stunned at how stupid this organization is. One chance to get a legit lefty ace in his prime and we strike out.
Just turned on FOX and am getting the warmup to the Cubs game…
wow, I can’t believe people are still crying about Santana. We get it – you want to win immediately and every year. The Yankees are not on the same page with you – they actually want to develop young players. The Mets may miss the playoffs – if they do, or if they don’t get out of the first round, how much of a slam dunk was that trade? It wasn’t – Santana guarantees exactly nothing
I give up. I’m going to stop fretting and start enjoying the whining – it’s like a spectator sport, lol.
nice answer angel, if it only were serious.
Betsy– I think if Cash doesn’t return it says an awful lot about what he thinks of Hank and Hal. Then the person who replaces Cash will come in with the knowledge that Hank and Hal are just a couple of amateurs.
ps- I want Cash back.
Is Cashman that insecure that he lets a non-entity like Hank intimidate him? The guy worked for George in his prime and he can’t work for the ‘all bark no bite’ Hank?
Hal is his ally. He probably has a better relationship with Hal than he will have with ANY owner in baseball.
Lame, lame excuse.
Is Sunday looking any better? I’m more interested in Moose’s start I have to admit.
Forecast looks like heavy rain now until 4:45 followed by about an hour break and then the rain starts up again.
No, it wasn’t serious. I was teasing Pete.
bunch of cry babies still crying about not getting santana…unless you were there talking to the twins gm you dont know exactly what went down…get over it, we dont have santana, were not making the playoffs…its not our god-given right to trade for every star, to sign every star, and to make the payoffs every year with or without a $200million payroll
Our weather report for Sunday is the same as for today. However, our weather report for last night was the same as for today and Sunday and we got the game in.
I wish somebody with that “window of opportunity” information could let us know how it looks in terms of the radar and what it shows.
Also on Cash:
He already came back once – he’s not going to again. The fact that he’s admitting it’s only 50-50 is a tip off. I figure his wife and family will be the influence that puts him over the top. I know his wife loves NY, but she loves her husband more; I’m sure she does not want to see him make himself ill by stress and agitation.
Why are people painting Hank like he is George in the 80s?
HE HAS NO POWER!! Pete confirmed it. Heyman confirmed it. Sherman confirmed it. Every Yankee beat writer has confirmed it.
He doesn’t work for him, he works for Hal.
its ok the rotation will be this next year-
cc, wang, burnett, joba, hughes
people who still cry over Santana— get over it. He wouldn’t have made THE difference anyway. Cash did the right thing, and all his decisions for the past 3 years regarding building up the Yankees’ talent level are just starting to work out, while all the stupid old contracts are winding down. I’m not saying he is 100% right, but he has a great track record and a great vision. I’ll keep Cashman, thank you very much.
If Uggla goes deep, this could be fun.
Santana is a ship that has sailed as far as I’m concerned.
A ship that might as well be named the Titanic, for comparison purposes.
santana going for a complete game shutout on 3 days rest to save the mets playoff lives
lets see hughes ever do that
Betsy -
I’m not whining. Just admiring a good – no, great – pitching performance.
I hate the f u c k i n g Cubs.
So that is what an ace looks like?
I think Cashman’s big deal is that after 10 years, maybe the extra pressure is wearing him down.
The best thing for him is to report to ONE person, and ONLY one person– HAL–, and give him the authority to actually be a GM without interference. You know, like most of the other GMs in baseball.
I think he’d stay on those conditions.
Did the Red Bull and gum buzz wear off at 3:05 and Pete fell asleep?
Cubbies up 2-0
lol, I didnt think you were whining, Doreen. You’ve been as big an advocate of the ship sailing attitude as anyone.
Nothing wrong with admiring said ship though. People still go down to see the Titanic, after all.
“people who still cry over Santana— get over it. He wouldn’t have made THE difference anyway.”
Actually Santana was all the difference for the Mets. He just pitched a CGSO to keep the Mets alive. And on 3 days rest.
Guys, even if the Mets win and Milwaukee loses, the Mets still have to win tomorrow.
And they won’t have Santana tomorrow.
Brewers already down 2-0
Looks like we’ll see a one game playoff at Shea.
Sabathia vs. Jon Niese/Nelson Figeroa (or Pedro on 3 days rest)
OHMYGOSH!
I thought it was going to go.
Johan is going to be canonized over at Shea!
Steve, I think it says more about what he thinks about Hank. Cash and Hal have a good relationship and they work well together. However, Hank is another matter. There’s only so much you can take before you decide that enough is enough. I think the only reason it’s 50-50 is because Cashman really loves the Yankees.
santana going for a complete game shutout on 3 days rest to save the mets playoff lives
lets see hughes ever do that
Yep. No way a 22 year old kid who has shown a very high ceiling will ever win a big game for the Yankees.
Seriously, do some of you people have any realisitc perspective when it comes to basbeall?
Santana looked nasty to day…
–yes, he’s been good for Metsies, BronxJeers, but would have not been a difference maker for the Yanks.
hughes would injure something if he pitched in 3 days rest
I have a feeling Perez will put up a Tom Glavine line tomorrow – 0.1 IP, 6 ER.
Impressive job by Santana.
this looks like 2007 all over again for the mets last year john maine pitched a near no-hitter and then sunday you no what happen
what high ceiling? an 89 mph fastball and a slow curve.. OOoOoO!
He was the difference for today, Bronx Jeers.
He’s been pretty good for them, and excellent since ASB. Unfortunately their bullpen and the rest of their pitching hasn’t been even halfway as excellent. It should be anywhere near as close as it is.
lol crying, you are probably right
hughes will never be anywhere close to santana.
hughes reaches his ceiling, he is chris carpenter-lite (when he was in the AL East he had a 4 ERA)
“vtred
September 27th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Is Cashman that insecure that he lets a non-entity like Hank intimidate him? The guy worked for George in his prime and he can’t work for the ‘all bark no bite’ Hank?”
Cashman is able to handle it.
however, stress is accumlative. And he’s already endured plenty.
I predict he leaves, for that single reason. Hopefully, he stays.
“Seriously, do some of you people have any realisitc perspective when it comes to basbeall?”
Nope, some people here obviously ran before they walked as children.
Santana should be a Yankee. terrible move
Bob (The Original) I’m with you. Some of the posts I see in here make me wonder if some of the posters know anything about baseball at all.
Betsy– But if Cash leaves because of Hank, there has gotta be lots of crap going on behind the scenes, you would think, right? I mean, why leave if he has Hal in his corner?
In 6 years Hughes may be half of what Santana is.
No, certain people only come on here to poke fun at my reproductive organs.
It’s quite a laugh, really.
if cashman leaves that closes the book on his rivalry with epstein. epstein would win and cashman is the loser that quit.
Doreen, I’m not referring to you. I’m referring to the people who just can not get over the fact that Santana isn’t here and who, as a result, bash Phil at every single opportunity they get. It’s pathetic, absolutely pathetic. The Yankees were (and are) not interested in ravaging their farm system for the present, specifically a pitcher who was going to cost mucho $$$$$. It boggles the mind – Santana is pitching great and the Mutts may still miss the playoffs. The Mutts were supposed to get to the WS and win it. If they don’t, then sorry – it’s a failure. Since there’s no winning with some people, I’ve given up. It almost makes me happy that they are giving themselvs ulcers over this.
what high ceiling? an 89 mph fastball and a slow curve.. OOoOoO!
Thank you for proving your stupidity.
WAH WAH WAH SANTANA!! Enough already.
Santana hasn’t lost a game since June 29th (3 months).
He has only given up more than 4 ERs in a start 4 times in 34 starts this season. He has pitches less than 6 innings only 3 times this year.
He is a legit ace. He has a competent bullpen, he wins 25 games.
Wait a minute, they’re still Yankee fans crying Santana ain’t here? Damn if you like him that much become a Met fan. Otherwise get over it.
hughes doesnt have a plus plus pitch = #4-5 starter
Hank has ZERO power in the organization. None.
And I guess some of you clowns forgot already how Hughes has already pitched a pretty big game for the Yankees.
Did you watch him in the playoffs against Cleveland last year?
Yeah, there’s absolutely no reson to think that this kid might just be pretty darn good in a year or two.
Ok, lets stop complaining.
The trade should have been made and it was a terrible non-trade. However, it is water under the bridge. No point in rehashing it. We all knew he was the best pitcher in baseball and wanted to come here, but Cashman had other plans.
Lets just hope we can get CC, nothing good will come out of thinking about what could have been,
Steve, I think it really is as simple as Cash not being able to deal with Hank and his unpredictability. He’s constantly having to put out fires – it’s enough, you know? Sometimes things are what they are and there’s nothing complicated about it. The Yankees are not the only team where Cash can be happy – and frankly, I don’t think he’s been happy, not since Hank blew into town anyway. Hal can’t fix the problem. I just hope that, on his way out, Cashman tells the truth, the truth and nothing but the truth to Hank so that he knows why a man who has been with the organization for 20 something years is leaving an organization he still loves dearly
Why should we get it over it?? It was a pretty big decision from this franchise that will have repurcussions for a decade. So no. I won’t get over them not getting an ace for 4 scrubs.
“He is a legit ace. He has a competent bullpen, he wins 25 games.”
And if he played in the AL East he’d have 17. Oh and if grandma had a pair she’d be grandpa.
“Den
September 27th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Hank has ZERO power in the organization. None.”
no. However, situations can change.
(see: Swindal, Steve)
“–yes, he’s been good for Metsies, BronxJeers, but would have not been a difference maker for the Yanks.”
Post of the day. I am always careful not to look at “elsewhere” results, pro or con, and decide that the same thing would have happened in the Bronx. As I am wont to say, the highways are littered with scorecards with the names of players who were supposed to light up the Stadium.
Hughes big game was 3 inn of relief. Santana has multiple cy youngs. Yea. Good call
I can’t believe we’re having this Phil Hughes conversation.
Hughes may not become a #1 ace, but he’s going to be a key starter for the Yankees from now on, barring injury. He’s proven himself as worthy already, just needs to stay healthy now.
Betsy -
I was hoping you weren’t talking about me.
BTW – You don’t compare a developing pitcher to someone with years of experience. I think Hughes is going to be just fine, if not fine AND dandy, moving forward.
Unfortunately for the Mets, Santana cannot pitch every game, and likely can’t pitch a CG every single outing. But he gave them quite a lift today.
funny how everyone was talking about santana’s velocity when hughes can’t even break a paint of glass
You should get over it because what’s done is done. It’s over with now. Some of you are crying over spilled milk.
hughes doesnt have a plus plus pitch = #4-5 starter
I got a question for you, did you bandwagon in 96′ ?
Santana wins 25 with the Yankees. An ace dominates any league.
Why should you get over it?
Because there’s nothing you can do to change it.
Even with Phil and Ian nearly failing, we could still end the season with a better record than the Mets.
Would Johan have helped us? Sure.
Is it a complete and utter catastrophe that he’s not on the team?
I don’t think so.
Why should we get it over it?? It was a pretty big decision from this franchise that will have repurcussions for a decade. So no. I won’t get over them not getting an ace for 4 scrubs.
And you’d be the first in line to bitch and moan a few years into his massive contract when he starts to break down, while Hughes was the anchor of the Twins rotation.
Nobody knows how this will turn out eventually but the nonsense you post is uniformed drivel.
A Z Four, you may think it was a terrible non-trade, but please don’t speak for anyone but yourself. I think it was the right move and plenty of other people (who don’t necessarily have to post all the time to prove it) do. I still want someone to explain to me just what Santana would have done to help the Yankees on the other 4 days that he wouldn’t have pitched. Could he hit? Could he pitch for everyone else? And still answer me this question – are the Mets on the verge of missing the playoffs? That’s not even the biggest reason the Yankees didn’t make the trade, but we have been through that ad nauseum and it’s getting tiresome to have to repeat it.
please schedule hughes vs santana next year
vtred September 27th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Is Cashman that insecure that he lets a non-entity like Hank intimidate him? The guy worked for George in his prime and he can’t work for the ‘all bark no bite’ Hank?
How do you know Cash is intimidated by Hank?
Is it pull things out of the air day?
Hughes is a back end guy. He’s 22 and has less velocity than Santana. U are morons if u think he’s in Santanas league.
3 innings in a game that everyone thought was over is considered ‘pressure’?
We were down 0-2 in the series and down 3 runs in the 2nd inning. There was no pressure at all on Hughes. The stadium was dead, the team look dejected when Roger was limping off the mound.
Conversely, Ervin Santana of the Angels had an even more impressive relief outing against us in relief of Colon in game 5. That was a clinching game. He has to protect a lead in the final game of the series.
God some of you are dumb. Ryan Spilborghs over Matt Holiday?! Wow.
Santana would’ve been great, but Hughes is not the reason, he’s not here.
And a real Yankee fan would want Phil to do his best, not fail so they could crow about the non-trade.
Phil is 22.
He was doing well from when he came back last season until the next to the last start in ST. He had a horrible start to the season. What happened? Did Phil forget how to pitch? Did he fall apart? What? He was pitching with a broken rib and didn’t know it? So would that affect his pitching? You mean you actually could lose 3 months waiting for it to heal? So, he won’t ever be able to pitch again? What? He’s been pitching well? But everyone says he’s a bust.
I still havent got over trading jay buhner. I’m supposed to get over not getting the best pitcher in the game? Funny
bob–when you say a few years into his massive contract do you mean 3 or 4 years of ACE pitching for us?
We can get into Johan’s loss of velocity, or the lack of the use of the slider, or what a dip in velocity would do to his changeup, or the fact that his numbers are on a trend downward, or that he has six more seasons for roughly 20 million per, but I think that the people who cry and cry and cry about the guy wouldn’t listen to it anyway. Oh and the fact that he is in a mediocre division in a lesser league, but that stuff is irrelevant, hed have 25 wins as a yankee just like the answer this season was trading for Bronson Arroyo.
people who were against the Santana trade were not against it for what Santana will do this year but 4 years or so down the road.
I was a aginst the trade and still think that was the right thing to do.
Good for Santana he is pitching like the best pitcher in baseball, because he should be ..
Hughes just turned 22 and it was more then the players it was also the $$$$$$$$$ knuckleheads.
Jeter move to 2b!!!!If you think that is why the Yanks did not make the playoffs you are a fool…60 + games 3 runs or less, Jeters D this year was more then adequate.. If Jeter played Catcher, or 2b this year, or CF and produced this year that may have helped but then again great SS do not grow on trees ask the Orioles about that….
Any good GM makes that trade. Good riddance if Cash leaves. When was our last title???
Doreen, you’re one of the best posters here and I love reading what you have to say. My posts are directed to the reactionary fans who really do seem to have it out for Phil…….they are reactionary and hypocritical. They are the same fans who say they want the Yankees to rid themselves of burdensome contracts and concentrate on developing young players. Then, they demand that the youngsters produced RIGHT NOW or else they are bums. On the other hand, this could just be an ant-Phil phenomenon. I find some of these posts about Phil just outright mean.
DCR—yeah i dont understand that either…
There is about 5-6 intelligent posters here, about 1 dozen reactionaries and one who continues to be obscene.
Hughes isn’t a bust, but he sure as hell isn’t going to be an ace either. Not with his stuff. When his curve is breaking like that, he’ll have good games. When it isin’t, teams will tee off is 90 FB fastball. He’ll be a nice #3 starter. Valuable, yes, but certainly not something you hold onto in favor of Santana.
Conversely, Ervin Santana of the Angels had an even more impressive relief outing against us in relief of Colon in game 5. That was a clinching game. He has to protect a lead in the final game of the series.
Funny you bring up Ervin Santana.
Do you realize how awful he was when he first came up?
Now look at him.
Even better, maybe do a little reading into the history of young pitchers in MLB and see how many struggled before they were great.
There is a baseball world outside of the Yannkees since 1996 you know?
“hughes can’t even break a paint of glass”
hmmm
who cares about 5 years from now? U got to pay for top shelf pitching. Sabathia may break down too.
TD September 27th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Santana wins 25 with the Yankees. An ace dominates any league.
With the way the NY Yankees offense was this year, Santana would have won 25 games this season if he was with the Yankees? Really? Really?
I’ll be back…..I need to clean my computer..
I spit soda on it from laughing too hard after reading that.
brainiacs can Santana hit?
If the Yanks had Santana this year with this gutless offense it would have helped marginally..
the Yanks cannot score look at the statistics,….
“Brandon (We’ll miss you Yankees Stadium !)…”Keep Manny away !” September 27th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
hughes doesnt have a plus plus pitch = #4-5 starter
I got a question for you, did you bandwagon in 96′ ?”
what does that have to do with it? and whats “athletical”? idiot.
“A guy who is athletical†– brandon
Ralphie,
Maybe they meant a “pint of ale”?
you guys make it sound like its hughe’s fault he wasnt traded…hes gonna be whatever hes gonna be…if you wish he was traded dont hate on phil…hate on the front office
“people who were against the Santana trade were not against it for what Santana will do this year but 4 years or so down the road.”
Lot of those same people want to sign CC to a similarly ridiculous contract.
So when is this riveting Ponson vs. Dice-K matchup starting?
But money won’t be an obstacle for any player Steinbrenner desires — even with the inherent, long-term risks for a veteran pitcher.
“The Mets did it with Santana, and I came damn close to doing it with Santana,†Steinbrenner said of the trade he advocated last winter with Minnesota. “You look at it on a player-to-player basis, and you look at the market.â€
A part of Steinbrenner still wonders whether he should’ve insisted on Santana, too.
“[Would] Santana have made enough of a difference with all our injuries [this year]? I don’t know,†Steinbrenner said. “It certainly would have made us a lot closer.â€
http://www.northjersey.com/spo.....ow_on.html
Hank is 100% right. Kind of old article but the point remains.
1) I apologize in advance for the troll impersonating me likely to follow this post.
2) We’re spoiled as Yankee fans. We expect to win every year, so we don’t know how to *wait* for players to develop. You can argue, if only we’d been patient with Carlos Peña, if only we’d been patient with Dioner Navarro, etc…
So now the team is trying to be patient with Hughes, et al. In three years, when Santana is starting to slow, we’ll know more whether or not it was the right idea.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but predicting what will happen is much harder.
I wanted Santana here in the off-season but didn’t want to give up Hughes or to a lesser degree Kennedy. One of my thoughts was centering a package around Cano, Melky, Tabata, and Alan Horne.
I do think the Yankees made a mistake not going harder after Santana. One area Cashman seems to repeatedly make mistakes is over-estimating the starting pitching. You can never have too many high end starters.
Also prospects are just that, and most fail to pan out. You have to identify the keepers and those that should be trade bait. I believe Hughes is a keeper, and am still glad the Yanks didn’t trade him for Santana. However, Horne’s career may be over now, Tabata’s stock fell and he was traded, Melky faded to obscurity, Kennedy looked overmatched here (I still believe he’s a keeper too).
I still have to belive last off-season the Yanks could have topped the Mets deal, without Hughes. That’s just my feeling.
Santana’s pricetag also scared the Yanks off. But by all accounts he was dying to pitch in NY, and by trading for him and signing him to an extension the Yanks could have gotten him for less than it will cost for CC now. And I’d still rather have Santana than CC. When you have a chance to get the best pitcher in the game in his prime, you do have to really push hard for it.
Santana this year would have stabilized the Yankees and taken pressure off the offense. His impact isn’t really just measurable by the numbers.
That bbeing said, it’s in the past now. The deal didn’t get done and we have to move forward. Hopefully CC signs here and we start rebuilding the pitching. Hopefully Hughes and the other kids mature and can make an impact.
I’m a real Yankee fan and I just watched Johan Santana pitch his heart out and keep his team alive.
I would trade Phil Hughes’ career for that kind of pitcher in a heartbeat.
That was the death knell of this season and we all know it. Even Jorge was begging for it.
Cashman did a bad job this year. Call a spade a spade finally.
That’s your opinion, Weather Man, and you are certainly entitled to it. That doesn’t make it fact. The Yankees do not share your opinion and that is a huge reason why the trade was not made.
Betsy -
There’s just some people who always have to complain and there’s nothing that will really make them happy, except to complain more. It just is that way. No logical arguments can sway that kind of sentiment.
What I don’t understand is how someone says they’re a fan can actively root against someone on the team they love, and especially someone young.
And not for nothin’, but it’s not Phil’s direct fault that he was not traded. Why take it out on him?
Lilly for Jeff Weaver – what a disaster!
it’s trades like that that kill you if you’re the Yankees, not free-agent signings.
Don’t blame Hughes, blame Hal. You know, the same guy who is too afraid to tell his brother to shut up and stop threatening is GM. Hal is a follower.
BTW,
Wil Nieves has settled in nicely with the Nationals. Good for him. Remember how heartbroken Moose was when he left? Now that Moose has Jose, I wonder if he gives Nieves any thought. lol.
On the other hand, this could just be an ant-Phil phenomenon. I find some of these posts about Phil just outright mean.
They come from ignorant baseball fans.
They seem to have no understanding of the game, saw Hughes was being talked about as a top shelf pitching prospect, and assumed he would just come out of the gate pitching like Johan Santana.
When that didn’t happen, he’s automatically a bust in their minds.
It boils down to ignorance. Rational people know that Hughes may or may not evolve into a stud ace. But we do know that whatever happens it will take years to judge him.
“Funny you bring up Ervin Santana.
Do you realize how awful he was when he first came up?”
Ervin Santana was 28-16 with an ERA below the AL average his 1st two seasons.
Fredo, that’s a completely different case. CC doesn’t cost you top prospects AND big $$$$. That being said, I would never give him or any pitcher 7 years – and I’m not sure I would give them 5 or 6.
Guess what everyone??
JOHAN SANTANA IS NOT A YANKEE…GET OVER IT!
Quit crying and SUCK IT UP!
I thought you were going to hush up about Cashman for the rest of this year, G Love?
In fact, I distinctly remember you saying so on the night they traded for Damaso Marte and Xavier Nady.
What Santana did today was remarkable. The Mets team rallies around him. He is more than just a pitcher, he calms that clubhouse and makes them confident.
Hughes will never have that type of impact. The guy just threw a CG SHO on 3 days rest, doesn’t get anymore gutsy than that.
Brandon
Did you hear the Fox announcers explain the Brewers belly thing?
what does that have to do with it? and whats “athletical� idiot.
“A guy who is athletical†– brandon
No you never made an error online. Listen clown because that is simply what you are when you want to insult posters online. First off listen clown, you want to have a discussion we can have one, you want to act like little bitch online then do it somewhere else. BTW while we’re correcting grammar it’s “what’s” not whats..maybe you need to look in a mirror when you say the word idiot it would be of better use that way don’t you think ?
Jorge can say what he wants – of course he’s going to say get an ace. He’s got at most 4 years left and he wants to win right now at all costs. The Yankees are going to exist for several more years after Jorge retires and that future is what they are looking to.
It’s honestly hard to have a rational debate here since we are debating apples and oranges. The Phil-bashers/those who wanted Santana (who aren’t necessarily Phil-bashers) are thinking of only this year. Those who agree with the Yankees and also like Phil are thinking more towards the future. That’s it – there’s nothing to debate because the two sides are not on the same page; they aren’t even in the same book.
Any update on the rain delay? I am getting sleepy this afternoon….
Attention troll impersonating people:
This blog records IP addresses. Such as the one at Research In Motion Inc. in Waterloo, Ont.
So, you know, you might want to stop doing that.
Pat what did they say ?
“That was the death knell of this season and we all know it.”
if Wang hadn’t gotten on base, the Yanks would be in the playoffs.
or any of a number of things. it’s not just whether Santana was here.
Hughes has ace stuff, Santana’s velocity has declined – in 2011 keeping Hughes might look like Michael keeping Bernie Williams does now.
Hughes will never have that type of impact. The guy just threw a CG SHO on 3 days rest, doesn’t get anymore gutsy than that.
Since it seems you can see into the future, do you have the winning mega million lotto numbers for next week?
If Tabata even reaches 70% of his potential, the Nady/Marte trade could be disasterous. We traded a 5 tool outfielder who is 19 years old and could be in the majors next year for a role player and a lefty reliever? Both who are FAs next year?
People praising that trade so quickly know nothing about baseball. That was a nonsensical trade by Cashman. Short term gain (if you can even call it that considering we are not making the playoffs) and long term implications.
I wonder why Bill Smith hasn’t been run out of town. He could’ve had Tabata.
Exactly Doreen. I really think some “fans” are taking perverse pleasure in seeing Phil struggle (even though young pitchers have struggled throughout baseball history). They WANT Phil to fail so that they can go “see? we told you so!!”………..
Pete, why no updates on the game? Have any idea when it will start?
Rebecca,
I don’t expect Santana to really slow down for 4 or 5 more years given his age, but you are right, we can’t evaluate the trade based solely on this year.
I’m wlling to be patient with Hughes.
However, we were willing to give up Tabata to get Nady (a good right handed bat) and Marte (an aging lefy for the pen) for a year plus. I don’t understand why the Yankees weren’t creative with all the prospect depth they built up to try and get Santana. They seemed more scared by the financial cost of signing him to an extension, and now CC will cost even more this off-season.
This board is like getting a bucket of cold water thrown on you. We know the Santana trade was a mistake, but do we have to be reminded of it everytime he saves the Mets? Good for him, good for them. Lets move on.
People praising that trade so quickly know nothing about baseball. That was a nonsensical trade by Cashman. Short term gain (if you can even call it that considering we are not making the playoffs) and long term implications.
And when Tababta has a meltdown next season and runs off and hides in the woods, it will look brilliant.
Clearly the Yanks had serious fears about this kid emotionally and figured they’d get something for him while they could.
Again, you never know how these deals will work out in the future, but my guess on this one is that Cashman sold as high as he could on the kid while he still could.
Wow. Toronto trolls are nasty.
Josh,
Good point. Why is Hughes untouchable yet we traded way our young 5 tool Tabata for a role player? Our system is thin at position players as it is and we sold low on our best one. If Cashman wanted to rebuild why trade for a quick fix like Nady? Tabata was starting to break out of it before he got hurt and he continued in Pittsburgh hitting .338 with a ton of XBH and SBs.
J Santana is a great pitcher but he wasn’t one at 22..Lester was pretty mediocre when he first came up. Doc was banished to the low minors after his first season. Guidry didn’t develop till he was 27. Not everybody is Joba and that can’t be the standard for evaluating young pitchers- instant success or you are a bum. Whether you agree with the “no trade” or not the only fair way to evaluate it is over time- nobody expected Johann versus Hughes to be a discussion in the first year. If you must win everything every year you are doomed to pay Paul a monster price down the road.
“I don’t understand why the Yankees weren’t creative with all the prospect depth they built up to try and get Santana.”
I don’t think it really mattered how creative they got though. It mattered what the Twins wanted. And most people at the time agreed they were crazy to turn down what they were offered from the Yankees, and that they got less from the Mets in the end.
Tabata was immature, couldn’t even handle life in Trenton. Sometimes a change of scenery is best. I don’t think the Yankees would have ever gotten Tabata AND his talent.
Pete, I have a question: so what if someone impersonates another? Is that in your terms of service? Without registration, there is zero you can do about it. My point is, if someone wants to be SJ44 or Rebecca or whomever, there is nothing wrong with it since you don’t have registration and it is open.
I’ve been impersonated before. CB gets impersonated all of the time…as did Dr. Acula back when he was still around. There is nothing you can do about it.
Research in Motion? Yikes.
When Oh when will this baseball game start
Sheets man-Ruh Roh
So… is there going to be an actual game?
No updates on the rain delay of yet.
SA, dude, if you’re still here, I finished the MLB SATs. Just for you
This is a great blog, but it’s really getting creepy having to scroll past so much garbage to get to the legit posts. There’s been a steady uptick in the filth factor that’s beginning to crowd out the normal conversation. I don’t know if registration is the answer, but at some point, something has to give. This blog is way too good to be compromised by infantile trash.
Tank, you think it was a mistake, ok – but “we” would imply that everyone thinks it was and that is certainly not the case.
Bob(The Original),
You’re right, we don’t know what the Nady/Marte-Tabata deal is yet. It’s just troubling and frustrating that the Yankees mid-season are willing to part with prospects for good talent but don’t part with that talent when they had a chance to get the best pitcher in the game.
Dont forget the other great Cash move is pitching today. Lilly.
Brandon
Mike Cameron started it. He remembers as a kid that when his dad came home after a hard day at work, the first thing he did was untuck his shirt. That meant the work day was over and it was time to relax.
The Brewers do it after wins now to symbolize they worked hard today and the work day is over. It’s not only on walk-offs.
Peter,
This is your blog. If someone is offensive, (which includes being insulting to you) block him.
Phil,
I think the point is that this impersonation was too offensive to pass on.
Pete’s called out other people, too. Someone who worked on Wall Street. JP Morgan?
Rebecca you did? LOL!
I’m getting that Ruh Roh feeling, like the one I had when I took my SATs in high school!
They trade Tabata for a lefty specialist but not an ace??
Ben Sheets giving the game away to the Cubettes.
Ollie going for the Mets manana. I wonder which version shows up. Met fans will be drinking heavily.
Hey Jose, Tabata isn’t a five tool player. At best he has 4 tools because he has had no power so far and his speed is overstated too. I’m not trying to say I don’t want the guy in a AAA outfield next to Jackson next year but I really don’t think he’s everything he’s cracked up to be. Plus you add to that the attitude problems and a lot of the shine comes off.
mel – I agree it was offensive and should be blocked…but my point had to do with registration and the lack thereof allows impersonation.
Heck, I’ve been begging for registration to clean up the board since May of last season.
it is surreal to see the Devil Rays doing cocky postseason ads on Fox.
SA, just for you
And I have you to thank for the idea
Preview question
3. Why did the Tampa Rays win the 2008 AL East?
A: Because of an infusion of young talent in Crawford, Upton, Longoria and Garza.
B: Because the Red Sox and Yankees could not overcome injuries to their important players.
C: Because they won the games that they had to win.
D: Because they got rid of the “devil” in their name.
Its funny how Cashman is deciding if he wants to come back. What a joke. Every time i watch Santana pitch for the Mets the more i despise that idiot Cashman. So after watching Santana pitch a 2 hit complete game shutout, i get to watch Ted Lilly, whom the idiot Cashman passed because he signed Igawa! But Cashman is deciding if he wants to come back to the Yankees. Absolutely unreal and a complete joke.
“This board is like getting a bucket of cold water thrown on you. We know the Santana trade was a mistake,”
Tank I just want to echo what Betsy said, and repeat my own mantra. Because Santana has performed for the Mets does not mean he would have performed/performed the same way for the Yankees. In fact we AL fans continually lament the difference in leagues in terms of the batting power differential and other things. Witness the record of the NL West division winner.
I too do not call it a mistake. However I had my own reasons for thinking it was not a good idea to get Santana and those reasons were not going to change no matter how he pitched for the Mets. So I’m still good with the decision.
Bob(The Original),
You’re right, we don’t know what the Nady/Marte-Tabata deal is yet. It’s just troubling and frustrating that the Yankees mid-season are willing to part with prospects for good talent but don’t part with that talent when they had a chance to get the best pitcher in the game.
Nady and Marte didn’t require propspects AND a $150 mil contract.
Tabata is years away from being ML ready, if he ever is. Hughes was believed to be this season.
You don’t have to agree with it, but the circumstances of both deals was like comparing apples and oranges.
“Dont forget the other great Cash move is pitching today. Lilly.”
He just missed hitting a grand slam.
Let’s not forget Phil Coke almost went in the Marte/Nady deal. Now that would have not been good.
Also I hardly think that a .300 third baseman with an OPS around 980 is the epicenter of our problems. This year i think was the product of
1) critical injuries in a thin area resulting in Rasner, game but not good, being third on the team in starts
2) A colossal injury resulting in the catching position going from .325 with power and walks to a .225 with little of either
3) A bad injury to Jeter that changed him offensively from Jeter to Eckstein- once he began to recover and become Jeter again, we played more like the Yankees again
4) An odd “senior jinx” season by Cano who is still a work in progress
Despite all of this they are still way above .500 in a murderous division. Let all “terrible seasons” be only this bad…
Looks like we are back to square one…
Sabathia and Perez on the hill tomorrow to determine their teams fate. Both win or both lose– one game playoff. One wins and one loses— winner goes to the playoffs.
Cash’s comments suggest to me that he is not coming back. Given the regression of the team over the past five years (each year collapsing earlier) perhaps it is time for a change with a new approach and attitude. If so, it is hoped Cashman’s successor realizes he is not putting together a Fantasy Team (i.e, well, this guy has 100 ribbies each year—let’s keep/get him) but looks at what is behind the numbers, whether he is a complete player, the likelihood of committed performance for the term of the contract etc.
Preview question
3. Why did the Tampa Rays win the 2008 AL East?
A: Because of an infusion of young talent in Crawford, Upton, Longoria and Garza.
B: Because the Red Sox and Yankees could not overcome injuries to their important players.
C: Because they won the games that they had to win.
D: Because they got rid of the “devil†in their name.
Easy Peasy. We all should know the answer to this one:
D
I have to take that quiz later. Awesome job Rebecca!
Nail on the head.
SA: Thanks!
Den,
Tabata did not help his stock any. Weren’t his struggles/suspensions/walking away from the game from this season?
They took the opportunity to clean house. People don’t like it, but it is what it is.
No one expected Jackson to take off like he did either. And yes, I’m aware of the hemate problem with Tabata.
But sometimes you can fix a bone, but it’s harder to fix attitude.
McCarver announcing the Phillies game. When or if the game starts, no McCarver and Buck.
Joe Buck is doing Cowboys/Redskins tomorrow.
“Dont forget the other great Cash move is pitching today. Lilly.â€
Lilly started to implode for the Yankees and was not able to get past the 5th inning too many games in a row. His last memorable game is when he almost pitched a no hitter in either Toronto or Seattle, I forget which – it’s been a while. Lilly went to both the A’s and the Jays and was traded from both. He landed back in the NL and has made himself a nice home in Chicago.
I thought about that today and wondered if he needed a manager like Piniella to bring out the best in him. He had all mellow dudes in his stay with the other teams and didn’t really flourish. Just a thought. Though again, pitching in the NL doesn’t hurt.
Mr Jaggers
Though I live in Wisconsin I watched every Yankee game. I enjoyed reading this blog, for the most part, though I couldn’t do so after a loss- the negativity is pretty intense even with wins..But it is nice to see so many caring fans piping in their 2 cents worth..To paraphrase an old Windy City shortstop- the Yanks will shine in 09
Bob(The Original),
I didn’t want to include Hughes in the deal for Santana, and I still have faith he’ll be a very good pitcher down the line. In fact, I didn’t even want Kennedy included in the deal at the time.
I think the Yanks could have gotten creative by offering the Twins Cano. A salary controlled player capable of hitting .300 with dedication issues that the Yankees knew about and a lack of plate discipline was imo a player the Yankees could have parted with and that the Twins would have wanted. IMO, and again, it’s just my opinion, the Yankees could have sweetened the pot enough to get Santana. I believe one of my proposals at the time was some combination of Cano, Melky, Tabata and Horne for Santana.
“$150 mil contract”
Exactly my point. That more than anything else scared off the Yankees imo, but given the going rate for starting pitching now and that ths is Johan Santana, it shouldn’t have been.
Saw an odd rumor running around the web…the Yanks are considering picking up Pavano’s option for $13M. They’d owe him a $2M buyout…so it is $11M for the year, net. Wow…I’d never thought they consider this.
Holy crap, the Phillies want the division pretty bad.
pat,
Victorino, 2-2. Now there’s a guy who won’t break your heart.
Phil: You have got to be kidding me.
On behalf of Bengie Molina, I am posting to LoHud today under protest. I hope this Yankee game happens today, we need some closure with Sir Sidney.
But I won’t be able to watch if/when it happens, I’m on the way to Berkeley to enjoy a football contest between the California Golden Bears and the Colorado State Rams. I fully expect the Bears to be victorious, but I’m not laying 27.5 points. Just for the record.
Go Yankees!
Go Bears!
USA! USA! USA!
It is also posible that Nady could be traded for a front line pitcher. His stock is very high at this time.
Ted Lilly, whom the idiot Cashman passed because he signed Igawa
I think the real issue here is that non of us really know if these were moves that Cashman wanted to make.
My gut tells me that the Igawa signing was called for by the big shots in response to the Dice K signing, and not because they knew anything about his abiltiy either. It reeked of wanting to get their share of the Japanese advertising too.
Like I said none of us really knew who was behind alot of these signings, thus making it really difficult to gauge how good or bad Cashman is.
Personally, I like his vision, but I do have my doubts about whther he actually knows how to carry out the vision. We just don’t know enough about how much he actually did or didn’t do.
Nick, should I take Colorado State?
Rebecca, if you want to take CSU straight up (no points) I’m happy to cover the other side of that bet. Decide instantly, I’m on the way out the door.
just got done with some yard work i have been putting off. can anyone tell me about whats going on with the game?
Cashman has full control from 2005 until now. Every move in that time span is 100% his responsibility. The only exceptions are A-Rod, Posada, and MO.
We can’t pick and choose and give Cashman the good moves and George the terrible moves. Davidoff wrote an excellent article on which moves were his and not.
Next thing we know if Nady walks and Tabata turns into a star, people will blame that trade on Hank.
just got done with some yard work i have been putting off. can anyone tell me about whats going on with the game?
Ponson is perfect thru 7 and Babe Ranson has 2 Grandslams already.
Lilly is another example of the need for patience with young pitchers- sometimes they do develop..He was a miss on Cashman’s part- not the original trade- but during free agency he was begging to come here and instead the money went to Igawa- now I like Cashman but the Igawa move was not an inspired one- typically a pitcher who features a “hanging fastball” and a telegraphed change doesn’t do well..:)
mel
I’ve always liked Victorino’s game but even more after I saw him get into that scuffle last week with Tavarez.
Will the Phillies take Bruney for him?
Rebecca –
I know the MLB SAT is just for laughter. But where should I submit my answers? (im serious 8)) lol
thanks bob?
I have not blogged in a long time but I have
been keepin’ up with the latest here at LOHUD…
I just wish to say bless you guys
and I wish you all well over the winter…sniff…
the long cold snowy winters only Oswego County can produce…
I really appreciate so many of you…
some not so much.
Shalom
Yanks rule in 2009
Paul
**
Before everyone spins off into speculative space waiting for the game to start, have you folks given serious consideration to the possibility that the Yankees will not sign any free agent pitchers and may be unable to re-enlist Pettite and Mussina? This scenario may be more likely than we imagine–by design or by default.
New thread. Game called.
pat,
Good Bruney. Let’s throw in Good Melky, too. You know, Victorino’s a switch hitting 4th OF, too!
attn any Michigan fans
halftime – wisconsin 19, michigan 0
mel
If Good Melky is enough lets keep Good Bruney. Having 2 guys who won’t break your heart is always better than 1.
two more thoughts on bringing back Pettitte and Muss.
1 – Most innings pitched by Yankees pitchers this season
Pettitte 204 innings
Mussina 194 innings
in 3rd place
Rasner 111 innings
2 – The reason we cant call Cashman’s rebuilding a failure is because it takes several seasons to pull off. If you put too many young players in a team together you get a season like Arizona’s. When guys are hot they are great, but if a few guys go cold the whole team collapses.
You need to transition it over a few yrs. Joba puts up great numbers but he throws too many pitches and still has a lot to learn about how to have quick innings. Phil and Kennedy have the talent but blow hot and cold a bit (esp Kennedy). We need some vets on short term deals to help out while these get get up to speed. Then when they are we can add another guy like McAllister or Heredia in a yr or two. 4 yrs of a guy we only like because he is available is nuts. Sabathia and Sheets are the only better pitchers available than Pettitte and Muss. Sabathia we should offer several truck loads of cash, Sheets is an injury waiting to happen. Burnett has no heart and is comparable to Muss and Andy anyway, except more injury prone and more expensive.
Casman’s plan is flawed from the standpoint that it is hard to execute. The Yankees are the Yankees you can’t change that. Hal may allow him to, but the fans, media, and even the players will not. Posada already campaigned for Santana last year and campaigned for Burnett/CC this year. Heck even Bruney is mentioning Burnett. The players are disgruntled and grumbling to the media. He is also putting his manager in an impossible situation with a flawed team.
You can’t put young players in this poisonous atmosphere with this rabid fanbase and media. You have to mask them. You have to put a dominant team around them and then slowly integrate young players into the mix, one by one. Cashman decided to throw 3 rookie pitchers in the rotation at once. That was the mistake. Just like letting Abreu walk and not replacing him and expecting Austin Jackson to come in and save the day and make up the 250 less runs we are on pace to not produce. A smart move would be to sign Tex or re-sign Abreu so that Jackson can come in with no pressure.
If Cashman wants to rebuild. He has to first make sure the team around him is good enough to win so even if the player struggles, there is enough around to pick up the slack and deflect pressure from him. You can’t put the young players in positions where they are expected to do too much. For example, if you sign CC then you can have Hughes in the rotation because with CC-Wang-Mussina-Joba in front of him, Hughes just has to be average. Thats what you want.
Cashman has the right plan, wrong execution. I think he realizes this and will correct it this off-season.
Lilly? Thanks Cashmen.
Mr. Jaggers
September 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Lilly is another example of the need for patience with young pitchers- sometimes they do develop..He was a miss on Cashman’s part- not the original trade- but during free agency he was begging to come here and instead the money went to Igawa- now I like Cashman but the Igawa move was not an inspired one- typically a pitcher who features a “hanging fastball†and a telegraphed change doesn’t do well..:)
____________________________________________
There is nobody in baseball that wouldn’t have traded Lilly for Weaver when that deal was done.
R-Tek
What you describe was the plan Cashman had. He expected Wang to throw 220 innings and win 20 games. He knew Pavano was coming into spring training healthy in a contract yr and expected at least 100 innings from him. He thought Wang, Muss, Pettitte, Pavano were the 4 vets who’d pitch most innings and ease the transition of Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.
Austin Jackson isn’t getting a starting job next season. He ain’t. Next season we will have Gardner as the young guy making a transitional season. He has already gotten his feet wet, taken his licks and made some adjustments this season so he isn’t going to be totally raw next year. He will be energetic and athletic though. With Damon, Nady and possibly Abreu joining him he wont be looked to to be the spark every night and will be able to make the transition in a similar manner to Pedroia and Ellsbury at Boston. The following year Jackson will come in to replace Damon in the outfield, but by then Gardner will have a better grounding.
The problem this yr was too many injuries to the vets who were to be the backbone put too much pressure on our young guys and they crumbled a bit. Next season if we brought back exactly the same team, but had a healthy Wang, Posada, Damon, ARod and Joba all season, we’d win the division. No question.
Now they will undoubtedly make changes, and they should. Add Sabathia (I pray) to the rotation and then Hughes and Kennedy and Aceves are then surrounded by innings eaters, by real aces, who will allow them to go 5 or 6 innings without killing the bullpen. Who will prevent prolonged slumps and series sweeps and allow these guys to concentrate on their game instead of worrying about carrying the team. And whether it it Texiera or someone brought in via trade, Giambi back for a cheaper price, we will have a vet on 1B not justkeeping our fingers crossed that some combo of Miranda/ Matsui and Damon can figure it out.
That is how guys like Wang, Cano and Melky were brought into this ‘poisonous atmosphere’. And before them Soriano, Johnson and earlier Jeter, Pettitte, Posada and Mo. We have the vets in place, we need to keep bringing in a couple of young guys each season.
The AAA team in Scranton won their division and have a decent staff but aside from the guys we have already seen in NY, they don’t have any real top prospects. AA Trenton has a strong rotation but again they are great minor league guys but on the whole won’t make the leap.
Basically we have to bed in the guys who have already started seeing some action in NY, including some of the Sept call ups. We have a good crop of solid guys with them and in the minors who can cover injuries and keep us afloat, and lots of arms who can compete for spots in the pen (including a few who could turn out to be really good), but (Jackson aside) the next crop of top prospects are really 2 yrs away now so we have time to let these guys find their feet, surrounded by vets, before adding more youth to the mix.
The foundations are there. The young guys have taken their licks, and with some money spent in the summer and the most competitive bullpen in the league, we will be scary next season.