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	<title>Comments on: Game 161: Yankees at Red Sox</title>
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	<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/</link>
	<description>A Yankees Blog by Journal News beat writer Peter Abraham</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Brian M</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550063</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550063</guid>
		<description>R-Tek

What you describe was the plan Cashman had.  He expected Wang to throw 220 innings and win 20 games.  He knew Pavano was coming into spring training healthy in a contract yr and expected at least 100 innings from him.  He thought Wang, Muss, Pettitte, Pavano were the 4 vets who'd pitch most innings and ease the transition of Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.

Austin Jackson isn't getting a starting job next season.  He ain't.  Next season we will have Gardner as the young guy making a transitional season.  He has already gotten his feet wet, taken his licks and made some adjustments this season so he isn't going to be totally raw next year.  He will be energetic and athletic though.  With Damon, Nady and possibly Abreu joining him he wont be looked to to be the spark every night and will be able to make the transition in a  similar manner to Pedroia and Ellsbury at Boston.  The following year Jackson will come in to replace Damon in the outfield, but by then Gardner will have a better grounding.

The problem this yr was too many injuries to the vets who were to be the backbone put too much pressure on our young guys and they crumbled a bit.  Next season if we brought back exactly the same team, but had a healthy Wang, Posada, Damon, ARod and Joba all season, we'd win the division.  No question.

Now they will undoubtedly make changes, and they should.  Add Sabathia (I pray) to the rotation and then Hughes and Kennedy and Aceves are then surrounded by innings eaters, by real aces, who will allow them to go 5 or 6 innings without killing the bullpen.  Who will prevent prolonged slumps and series sweeps and allow these guys to concentrate on their game instead of worrying about carrying the team.  And whether it it Texiera or someone brought  in via trade,  Giambi back for a cheaper price, we will have a vet on 1B not justkeeping our fingers crossed that some combo of Miranda/ Matsui and Damon can figure it out.

That is how guys like Wang, Cano and Melky were brought into this 'poisonous atmosphere'.  And before them Soriano, Johnson and earlier Jeter, Pettitte, Posada and Mo.  We have the vets in place, we need to keep bringing in a couple of young guys each season.

The AAA team in Scranton won their division and have a decent staff but aside from the guys we have already seen in NY, they don't have any real top prospects.  AA Trenton has a strong rotation but again they are great minor league guys but on the whole won't make the leap.  

Basically we have to bed in the guys who have already started seeing some action in NY, including some of the Sept call ups.  We have a good crop of solid guys with them and in the minors who can cover injuries and keep us afloat, and lots of arms who can compete for spots in the pen (including a few who could turn out to be really good), but (Jackson aside) the next crop of top prospects are really 2 yrs away now so we have time to let these guys find their feet, surrounded by vets, before adding more youth to the mix.

The foundations are there.  The young guys have taken their licks, and with some money spent in the summer and the most competitive bullpen in the league, we will be scary next season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R-Tek</p>
<p>What you describe was the plan Cashman had.  He expected Wang to throw 220 innings and win 20 games.  He knew Pavano was coming into spring training healthy in a contract yr and expected at least 100 innings from him.  He thought Wang, Muss, Pettitte, Pavano were the 4 vets who&#8217;d pitch most innings and ease the transition of Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.</p>
<p>Austin Jackson isn&#8217;t getting a starting job next season.  He ain&#8217;t.  Next season we will have Gardner as the young guy making a transitional season.  He has already gotten his feet wet, taken his licks and made some adjustments this season so he isn&#8217;t going to be totally raw next year.  He will be energetic and athletic though.  With Damon, Nady and possibly Abreu joining him he wont be looked to to be the spark every night and will be able to make the transition in a  similar manner to Pedroia and Ellsbury at Boston.  The following year Jackson will come in to replace Damon in the outfield, but by then Gardner will have a better grounding.</p>
<p>The problem this yr was too many injuries to the vets who were to be the backbone put too much pressure on our young guys and they crumbled a bit.  Next season if we brought back exactly the same team, but had a healthy Wang, Posada, Damon, ARod and Joba all season, we&#8217;d win the division.  No question.</p>
<p>Now they will undoubtedly make changes, and they should.  Add Sabathia (I pray) to the rotation and then Hughes and Kennedy and Aceves are then surrounded by innings eaters, by real aces, who will allow them to go 5 or 6 innings without killing the bullpen.  Who will prevent prolonged slumps and series sweeps and allow these guys to concentrate on their game instead of worrying about carrying the team.  And whether it it Texiera or someone brought  in via trade,  Giambi back for a cheaper price, we will have a vet on 1B not justkeeping our fingers crossed that some combo of Miranda/ Matsui and Damon can figure it out.</p>
<p>That is how guys like Wang, Cano and Melky were brought into this &#8216;poisonous atmosphere&#8217;.  And before them Soriano, Johnson and earlier Jeter, Pettitte, Posada and Mo.  We have the vets in place, we need to keep bringing in a couple of young guys each season.</p>
<p>The AAA team in Scranton won their division and have a decent staff but aside from the guys we have already seen in NY, they don&#8217;t have any real top prospects.  AA Trenton has a strong rotation but again they are great minor league guys but on the whole won&#8217;t make the leap.  </p>
<p>Basically we have to bed in the guys who have already started seeing some action in NY, including some of the Sept call ups.  We have a good crop of solid guys with them and in the minors who can cover injuries and keep us afloat, and lots of arms who can compete for spots in the pen (including a few who could turn out to be really good), but (Jackson aside) the next crop of top prospects are really 2 yrs away now so we have time to let these guys find their feet, surrounded by vets, before adding more youth to the mix.</p>
<p>The foundations are there.  The young guys have taken their licks, and with some money spent in the summer and the most competitive bullpen in the league, we will be scary next season.</p>
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		<title>By: GreenBeret7</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550057</link>
		<dc:creator>GreenBeret7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550057</guid>
		<description>Mr. Jaggers 
September 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pm 
Lilly is another example of the need for patience with young pitchers- sometimes they do develop..He was a miss on Cashmanâ€™s part- not the original trade- but during free agency he was begging to come here and instead the money went to Igawa- now I like Cashman but the Igawa move was not an inspired one- typically a pitcher who features a â€œhanging fastballâ€ and a telegraphed change doesnâ€™t do well..:)

____________________________________________

There is nobody in baseball that wouldn't have traded Lilly for Weaver when that deal was done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Jaggers <br />
September 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pm <br />
Lilly is another example of the need for patience with young pitchers- sometimes they do develop..He was a miss on Cashmanâ€™s part- not the original trade- but during free agency he was begging to come here and instead the money went to Igawa- now I like Cashman but the Igawa move was not an inspired one- typically a pitcher who features a â€œhanging fastballâ€ and a telegraphed change doesnâ€™t do well..:)</p>
<p><i><em></em></i><i></i><i><em></em></i><i></i><i><em></em></i><i></i><i><em></em></i><i></i><em>_</em>_</p>
<p>There is nobody in baseball that wouldn&#8217;t have traded Lilly for Weaver when that deal was done.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550035</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550035</guid>
		<description>Lilly? Thanks Cashmen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lilly? Thanks Cashmen.</p>
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		<title>By: R-Tek</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550008</link>
		<dc:creator>R-Tek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550008</guid>
		<description>Casman's plan is flawed from the standpoint that it is hard to execute. The Yankees are the Yankees you can't change that. Hal may allow him to, but the fans, media, and even the players will not. Posada already campaigned for Santana last year and campaigned for Burnett/CC this year. Heck even Bruney is mentioning Burnett. The players are disgruntled and grumbling to the media. He is also putting his manager in an impossible situation with a flawed team.

You can't put young players in this poisonous atmosphere with this rabid fanbase and media. You have to mask them. You have to put a dominant team around them and then slowly integrate young players into the mix, one by one. Cashman decided to throw 3 rookie pitchers in the rotation at once. That was the mistake. Just like letting Abreu walk and not replacing him and expecting Austin Jackson to come in and save the day and make up the 250 less runs we are on pace to not produce. A smart move would be to sign Tex or re-sign Abreu so that Jackson can come in with no pressure.

If Cashman wants to rebuild. He has to first make sure the team around him is good enough to win so even if the player struggles, there is enough around to pick up the slack and deflect pressure from him. You can't put the young players in positions where they are expected to do too much. For example, if you sign CC then you can have Hughes in the rotation because with CC-Wang-Mussina-Joba in front of him, Hughes just has to be average. Thats what you want.

Cashman has the right plan, wrong execution. I think he realizes this and will correct it this off-season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Casman&#8217;s plan is flawed from the standpoint that it is hard to execute. The Yankees are the Yankees you can&#8217;t change that. Hal may allow him to, but the fans, media, and even the players will not. Posada already campaigned for Santana last year and campaigned for Burnett/CC this year. Heck even Bruney is mentioning Burnett. The players are disgruntled and grumbling to the media. He is also putting his manager in an impossible situation with a flawed team.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t put young players in this poisonous atmosphere with this rabid fanbase and media. You have to mask them. You have to put a dominant team around them and then slowly integrate young players into the mix, one by one. Cashman decided to throw 3 rookie pitchers in the rotation at once. That was the mistake. Just like letting Abreu walk and not replacing him and expecting Austin Jackson to come in and save the day and make up the 250 less runs we are on pace to not produce. A smart move would be to sign Tex or re-sign Abreu so that Jackson can come in with no pressure.</p>
<p>If Cashman wants to rebuild. He has to first make sure the team around him is good enough to win so even if the player struggles, there is enough around to pick up the slack and deflect pressure from him. You can&#8217;t put the young players in positions where they are expected to do too much. For example, if you sign CC then you can have Hughes in the rotation because with CC-Wang-Mussina-Joba in front of him, Hughes just has to be average. Thats what you want.</p>
<p>Cashman has the right plan, wrong execution. I think he realizes this and will correct it this off-season.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian M</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550004</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550004</guid>
		<description>two more thoughts on bringing back Pettitte and Muss.

1 - Most innings pitched by Yankees pitchers this season

Pettitte 204 innings
Mussina 194 innings

in 3rd place 
Rasner 111 innings



2 - The reason we cant call Cashman's rebuilding a failure is because it takes several seasons to pull off.  If you put too many young players in a team together you get a season like Arizona's.  When guys are hot they are great, but if a few guys go cold the whole team collapses.  

You need to transition it over a few yrs.  Joba puts up great numbers but he throws too many pitches and still has a lot to learn about how to have quick innings.  Phil and Kennedy have the talent but blow hot and cold a bit (esp Kennedy).  We need some vets on short term deals to help out while these get get up to speed.  Then when they are we can add another guy like McAllister or Heredia in a yr or two.  4 yrs of a guy we only like because he is available is nuts.  Sabathia and Sheets are the only better pitchers available than Pettitte and Muss.  Sabathia we should offer several truck loads of cash, Sheets is an injury waiting to happen.  Burnett has no heart and is comparable to Muss and Andy anyway, except more injury prone and more expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>two more thoughts on bringing back Pettitte and Muss.</p>
<p>1 &#8211; Most innings pitched by Yankees pitchers this season</p>
<p>Pettitte 204 innings<br />
Mussina 194 innings</p>
<p>in 3rd place <br />
Rasner 111 innings</p>
<p>2 &#8211; The reason we cant call Cashman&#8217;s rebuilding a failure is because it takes several seasons to pull off.  If you put too many young players in a team together you get a season like Arizona&#8217;s.  When guys are hot they are great, but if a few guys go cold the whole team collapses.  </p>
<p>You need to transition it over a few yrs.  Joba puts up great numbers but he throws too many pitches and still has a lot to learn about how to have quick innings.  Phil and Kennedy have the talent but blow hot and cold a bit (esp Kennedy).  We need some vets on short term deals to help out while these get get up to speed.  Then when they are we can add another guy like McAllister or Heredia in a yr or two.  4 yrs of a guy we only like because he is available is nuts.  Sabathia and Sheets are the only better pitchers available than Pettitte and Muss.  Sabathia we should offer several truck loads of cash, Sheets is an injury waiting to happen.  Burnett has no heart and is comparable to Muss and Andy anyway, except more injury prone and more expensive.</p>
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		<title>By: pat</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550003</link>
		<dc:creator>pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-550003</guid>
		<description>mel

If Good Melky is enough lets keep Good Bruney.  Having 2 guys who won't break your heart is always better than 1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mel</p>
<p>If Good Melky is enough lets keep Good Bruney.  Having 2 guys who won&#8217;t break your heart is always better than 1.</p>
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		<title>By: vinny-b</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549998</link>
		<dc:creator>vinny-b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549998</guid>
		<description>attn any Michigan fans


halftime - wisconsin 19, michigan 0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>attn any Michigan fans</p>
<p>halftime &#8211; wisconsin 19, michigan 0</p>
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		<title>By: mel</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549991</link>
		<dc:creator>mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549991</guid>
		<description>pat,

Good Bruney.  Let's throw in Good Melky, too.  You know, Victorino's a switch hitting 4th OF, too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pat,</p>
<p>Good Bruney.  Let&#8217;s throw in Good Melky, too.  You know, Victorino&#8217;s a switch hitting 4th OF, too!</p>
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		<title>By: pat</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549990</link>
		<dc:creator>pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549990</guid>
		<description>New thread.  Game called.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New thread.  Game called.</p>
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		<title>By: Second Base Yankee Stadium</title>
		<link>http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549989</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Base Yankee Stadium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/09/27/game-161-yankees-at-red-sox/#comment-549989</guid>
		<description>Before everyone spins off into speculative space waiting for the game to start, have you folks given serious consideration to the possibility that the Yankees will not sign any free agent pitchers and may be unable to re-enlist Pettite and Mussina? This scenario may be more likely than we imagine--by design or by default.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before everyone spins off into speculative space waiting for the game to start, have you folks given serious consideration to the possibility that the Yankees will not sign any free agent pitchers and may be unable to re-enlist Pettite and Mussina? This scenario may be more likely than we imagine&#8212;by design or by default.</p>
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