Today in The Journal News
-
- October
- 5
It’s a quiet October for baseball in New York. The Sunday Baseball Beat looks at what the winter holds for the Yankees and Mets.
Sam Borden wonders why the Mets were in such a hurry to hire Jerry Manuel.
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Congrats to Joe Torre, Don Mattingly and Larry Bowa for leading the Dodgers to a sweep of the Cubs and a berth in the National League Championship Series. Using a lineup that favored younger players over veterans and getting a near-perfect performance out of the bullpen, the Dodgers are in the NLCS for the first time since 1988.
Wait a second, doesn’t Torre need financial incentives to win playoff series? Hmm, maybe it wasn’t the manager after all.
Here’s how good life is for Torre these days: One of his horses, Trimaran, won a $50,000 race at Santa Anita on Friday. One of his two-year-olds, Vineyard Haven, won the $400,000 Champagne Stakes at Belmont on Saturday by nearly sixth lengths. Vineyard Haven is getting ready for the Breeders Cup Juvenile, which will be held Oct. 25 at Santa Anita.
That’s the same day as a possible Game 3 of the World Series at Dodger Stadium. Thanks to Big League Stew for pointing this out.
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Just a friendly public service announcement: If you’re planning to vote in November, you may need to register within a few days. Check out this site to get information on registering.
This entry was posted
on Sunday, October 5th, 2008 at 2:42 am by Peter Abraham.
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oh look, a new thread…
Pete! You’re alive!
Thanks for keeping up. I echo the criticism of the Manuel hiring. People are unhappy with Cash & Girardi? Puhleeze. At least we don’t have the “O & Jerry Show”.
Congrats to Joe & the Dodgers, but Philly won’t be an easy out.
And test those horses…
Hey guys, sorry for the lack of posts lately. I just needed some time away this stuff. I had worked something like 28 days in a row. It’ll pick back up again.
I would hope that people are happy for Joe Torre. Whether you cared for his managerial style or not, this was a guy who never once did anything but represent your team with class the entire time he was here. The same is true of Don Mattingly.
Pete –
thanks for the 411. hope you are enjoying your break for now until after the World Series. That’s when the fun begins right? haha.
Does Sam have it right? He says that the news of Minaya’s extension broke 3 days after the season ended.
I distinctly remember the booth criticizing the announcement/move during their last televised game.
I think the owners owed the fans at least a cooling off period before hoisting the two on them.
Actually, I like the Manuel hire better than Minaya’s extension. I don’t know much about the Mets, but that’s fuzzy logic for me. Cashman has 90% of the fans’ support. What do the Mets fans think of Omar?
Mel –
Did you heard about the Brewers asking the Yanks for their sponsorship? I was wondering, why don’t the Brewers sell Ryan Braun to the Yankees? It worked for the Sox selling off some legendary dead guy name Ruth. lol
Ed,
Are you talking about the Brewers’ owner talking about how the Yankees should pay more to the other teams? I didn’t read it because I knew it would disgust me.
I mean the Yankees don’t make it once in the last 14 years and this guy has the nerve to kick dirt on us because he’s in? lol.
Mel –
Yep, that’s what I was talking about. lol, if they want our sponsorship then they must pay the price.
Wait a second, doesn’t Torre need financial incentives to win playoff series?
No, he needs them to win a World Series- which would’ve amounted to $8,000,000 for ONE year with an option to boot. What a slap in the face, right? Give me a break.
Sorry, but Torre’s offered contract had incentives for each level of the playoffs, not just the WS.
It was by design meant to get rid of Torre. It was less years than he wanted as well. The whole thing was set up to look like a lot, yet it was a slap at him, making it seem as though he didn’t care if he even got to the playoffs, or beyond round 1.
Its all done now anyway, but if you are going to make comments, get it right with the way things were at least.
i’m thrilled for he and donnie—
great picture pete-thankshes having too much fun. something bad will happen to even it out.
cc sabathia is seven yrs younger than d lowe and is pretty much (take out this season) an AL pitcher for his career. No doubt Lowe has been Mr. consistent over his four seasons in LA but there are two concerns here and two MAJOR ones when it comes to signing him. One, he was born in 1973 making him another veteran on a club that desperately needs younger talent to build around. Two, he is coming off four great seasons in the NL. If nothing else, we should learn from past mistakes – we should stop signing pitchers past their prime and we should stop signing pitchers who have thrived in the NL before coming here. Those are two of the reasons we have consistently made horrible free agent pitching signings these last seven yrs or so. Lastly, looking back to D lowes last season in the AL, he was of course, on the sox in 2004. They were good that yr but he wasnt so hot with a 5.4 era and a whip over 1.6. That yr and the yr before were his two worst yrs of his career (probably why the sux didnt resign him) and then, his career was revived in the NL. I dunno bout bringing him back here esp to a team that really needs an ace.
To me, out of sabathia, there isnt really many other options. Wang is superb but we need someone that can be lights out on any given day. Chamberlain doesnt have the innings to start all yr and Hughes is uncertain to say the least. Moose and Pettitte may be gone and this off season, we certainly have the money to spend. I dont think signing a free agent starter this off season is the moment to start being cheap here. If there is any position to overpay it certainly should be in an ace. Peavy does make sense but god knows what they will want for the guy – most likely we will have to start with chamberlain and go from there. I dont think it is worth it to give up a potential ace to get one (esp with that kind of difference in price tags.) This off season is the time for cash to be bold, to show that he came back to make sure the yankees win and to make a big splash – cc should be that splash. It would be nice to sign him the day before he wins the cy young and mvp though.
Torre’s magical fairy dust strikes again.
Wait no, it’s because he got a job with the best team in a bad division. Peter, I expect a post praising DePodesta for building that team’s farm system which lead to Ethier, Kemp, Broxton, Billingsley, etc.
It doesn’t matter that 20 out of 25 players on a roster make more of a difference than the manager. Torre’s a “winner” and that’s what’s important! Sure, his managerial skills suck, but he has that special something that nobody knows what is is that makes his team win.
Sorry, but Torre’s offered contract had incentives for each level of the playoffs, not just the WS.
No need to be sorry, I know what Joe Torre’s contract was. I’m responding to Peter’s sarcastic comment about Joe needing incentives to win a playoff series, referencing the contract he walked away from. I responded with my own snide remark. Capisci?
A playoff series is old-hat in New York, and success is not measured by anything else other than a World Series championship. Which is what the Steinbrenner’s want more than anything, as evidenced in the contract.
That’s what I’m saying.
It was by design meant to get rid of Torre.
Steinbrenner: Hey, I don’t want you to manage the Yankees, so I’ll offer you a lucrative deal with my fingers crossed, hoping you’ll decline it.
** Steinbrenner prays you don’t accept the contract**
You: “I don’t accept the contract”
Steinbrenners thoughts: YES! I AM SO GLAD HE DIDN’T ACCEPT THE OFFER! I CAN’T IMAGINE PURPOSEFULLY EMPLOYING SOMEONE I DON’T WANT TO EMPLOY AT ALL, LET ALONE OFFERING THEM A CONTRACT! PRAYING ACTUALLY WORKS!!
moving along…
It was less years than he wanted as well.
You can’t always get what you want. So you walk away and get it elsewhere. We’ve seen it a lot this year.
The whole thing was set up to look like a lot, yet it was a slap at him, making it seem as though he didn’t care if he even got to the playoffs, or beyond round 1.
What it really looked like was Joe Torre feeding himself sour grapes.
Joe Torre: “I’m accepting this contract because I love my guys and I think we can still get it done and bring home a World Series title to NY.”
But it didn’t go down like that. He held an hour long going away pity party.
Joe Torre: “The wording on paragraph 2 made me sad. I quit.”
Its all done now anyway, but if you are going to make comments, get it right with the way things were at least.
Unfortunately, for you, I hit the nail on the head.
I would hope that people are happy for Joe Torre. Whether you cared for his managerial style or not, this was a guy who never once did anything but represent your team with class the entire time he was here. The same is true of Don Mattingly.
You mean like lifelong packers fans, they’ll suddenly want Brett Favre to do well with the Jets. Not happening, for me at least.
I’m a longtime Packers fan and I root for Favre and the Jets.
Why not? Not even the same conference and not on our schedule.
Let’s all give three cheers for that genius Torre! While he thanks his lucky stars they picked up Manny. Oh yeah, he’s a great manager
It hurts to see Joe T in another uniform but congrats to him, Donnie and Bowa!
LOL @ Pete transparently trying to get blog activity
Good luck to Torre, but…
1. No Manny no playoffs!
2. The Yankees wanted him back for 1 year. However I don’t think they wanted the OLD manager in the NEW stadium.
3. According to Zimmer the Yankees contract offer was good
4. Torre is managing like it’s 1996 again. He was way too close to the vets on the Yankees and would have never benched any of them like Kent, Jones & Pierre.
5. Tampa wins 97 games + Arod, Matsui, Wang & Posada go down last year and he would have been unemployed anyway.
It’s hilarious watching the same NY press core that were calling for Torre’s head after the 2006 season now kissing his behind.
I am happy for Joe, Donny and Bowa because they seem like good people.
Nobody knows what would have happened if Joe has stayed here – it definitely seemed to me that the time had come for a new leader of the Yankees after year after year of playoff disappointment.
Torre’s strong suit of sheltering a clubhouse from the media and managing egos had not gotten us past the first round for years – it was time for a change. Maybe some day Girardi will be enjoying the loving protection that Torre is receiving now – hopefully after 4 championships.
I was among those who felt it was time for change with the Yankees, and never bought into the notion that a contract with incentives was an insult meant to drive Torre away. We should all be so insulted.
Still I’ll be rooting for the Ex-Yankees as they try to move on and hoping the Phillies win game four to the Brewers can’t mistreat CC one more time.
A Red Sawx, Dodgers series would be too much, wouldn’t it?
Best of luck to Joe, Don, and Larry.
Glad Torre won last night but the moment the game was final does not mean that the Yankees made a mistake. I did not like Girardi at all however Torre did nothing with this bunch either for a few years. That National League is an entirely different animal and you cannot compare. Its over with anyway.
Soriano? wow back to his old ways of swinging at pitches in the dirt swinging at absolutely anything thrown in his direction.
Think we got problems, its got to be better than being a Cubs fan right now.
Congrats to Joe, Larry and Donnie, my luck be with you. My sentiments on the matter expressed by only umps on the take.
I like our new manager and think that he will grow with our team into the new stadium and into a new era.
If it happens, that is the Sox and Dodgers, it has to come down to game seven with the game on the line and Manny at the plate.The thought of Manny standing in the batter’s box, gazing at a moon shot to sink Boston in Fenway is just too delightful.
Pete,
What a picture. Joe should make it into a postcard and send it to Hank. He should write on the postcard. “Having fun, wish you were here.”
I think the Yankees make the playoffs this year with Mr. Torre at the helm. Somehow, I think he’s worth the five or so wins they needed.
What do you think?
Congratulations to Joe T and the boys out there in LA LA land.
Sweet vindication for Joe, winning in his first year away from the pinstripes. I’m not sure he could have kept up the Dr. Frankenstein routine here any longer. Keeping that $200 million, geriatric spare parts monster alive and in the running every year was getting harder and harder to do and less and less fun.
Congratulations to Dodger owner Frank McCourt too, for seizing the opportunity and grabbing up Joe and Donnie and Bowa. I’m hoping for a Dodger – Bosox WS.
First, absolutely, congratulations to Joe Torre, et al., on their 3-game sweep of the Chicago Cubs.
Secondly, my condolescences to Lou Piniella and the hapless Cubs. Oy, thank heavens I’m not a Cubs fan. I was rooting for them, but I’m by no means “upset” that they lost – after all, they are not our Yankees.
Joe Torre was certainly helped by the late season acquisitions of both Casey Blake and Manny Ramirez. Very reminiscent of those Yankees teams that added late season pieces to propel them forward. But I agree with Pete, no hard feelings toward a man who represented the Yankees very well during his tenure here.
As far as his contract offer last off-season, I do believe the Yankees wanted him to accept it. But I also think they were not as supportive of the man after Torre’s Yankees failed to go past round 1 three years in a row. Torre himself said he was not sure what he was going to do, he was leaning toward accepting the contract, until he looked at some of the faces in the room. Ultimately, I don’t think it was the contract per se, as much as it was the realization that he didn’t have the full support of enough of the people in that room which prompted his turning the contract down.
I believe him when he says that this year he was able to enjoy what he was doing again. As we’ve seen this past season, managing in New York is no walk in Central Park. He did so far longer than most and with much success, the last 3 unsatisfying years notwithstanding. I think it was simply time for both parties to move on. I just wish it could have been done in a less clumsy manner.
Besides which, the Dodgers’ season has absolutely nothing to do with the Yankees’ season.
POOOOORRRR JOE. the big bad ungrateful yankees offered an underachieving manager a contract that kept him as the HIGHEST PAID MANAGER IN BASEBALL BY MILLIONS WITH A CHANCE TO EARN MORE. what a monster insult – how on earth do they think that you could offer a guy who has done nothing more but take a 200 million dollar team 5 days into october for 3 years running coming off an embarrassing historic collapse to the biggest rival in sports and a complete and utter world series CHOKE to a marlin team whose combined payroll and talent was 1/8th of the the yankees (Ehhh extra innings on the road…give me Weaver, give me Jeff Weaver!i1!i1!I 12 days rest? thattts nothing)But hey Joe…thats what happens when the media is obsessed with you…
Yes Joe congrats!!...congrats on andruw jones getting hurt forcing your hand to play 2 young kids that should have been in the lineup from day 1. lets not forget that joey rings had andre eithier riding pine for most of the first half.
the success of the torre and the dodgers shows the yankees what to do.
the yankees need to be the yankees again and sign manny to hit behind arod.
nothing would get the attention of red sox nation more than this because manny is an offensive beast and red sox fans know this.
going head to head with the red sox by competing on just player development and trades is silly because the red sox are better at those than the yankees. why compete on ground that is the enemy’s?
the yankees have immense financial resources because of generations of excellence that has created the largest fan base of any sports team. this financial clout is the ground they should fight on because using fans money they can annihilate the red sox who don’t have the fan base the yankees do .
it’s so simple. the yankees need to be who they are and not an imitation of the red sox who have to do it the way they are doing it. the yankees don’t . cashman is making the ultimate strategic blunder in playing the opponent’s game.
sign sabathia, sign manny, sign teixeira sign abreau , and sign burnett( riskier) and have an embarrassment of riches.
there will likely be injuries because of the veteraness of this kind of team so the yankees don’t need to worry about how to fit in all the players in. if there are no injuries and there is a logjam at the dh position and in the outfield this will be the best of all possible problems to have.
the yankees then can have time develop their minor league system which is years away from producing offensive players. they will make more money than they made this year when they lost a huge amount of money by not making the playoffs.
i’m guessing they lost at least 25-50 million dollars. every playoff game brings in ten million if you figure that each fan spends $200 apiece. so how was it smart to not add anyone this year and not make the playoffs?
i’d say it was 50 million dollars dumb.
The Torre haters are amazing. Lets hate on a guy that helped bring us to the playoffs every year and won 4 World Series.
You may not have agreed with all his in game moves (is there a manager out there that you always agree with?), but he knows how to manage people and the man had a calmness about him that carried over to his team. His teams didn’t panic.
I know the Yanks failed in the playoffs the last 7 years, no need to point that out, but at least we were in the playoffs. It’s no coincidence that this year the Yanks missed the playoffs for the first time since before Torre was here and the Dodger just won their first playoff series in 20 years. it can’t be the manager, it must be the players. Whatever. Give the guy some credit.
Under Girard this year the Yanks looked like they have in the playoffs the past 7 years. Not hitting with RISP, not getting guys in from 3rd with less than one out, not advancing a guy from 2nd to 3rd with nobody out, not having productive outs. They seemed tense all year. Under Torre no matter how many games they were out, there were always relaxed and never seemed to panic. That’s why they made the playoffs some of these years when they fell behind so many games early. And don’t use injuries as an excuse this year. Torre’s Yanks overcame a lot of injuries these past few years as well.
Like I said give the man his due. And I’m also happy for Donnie Baseball. I hope someday he is back in pinstripes.
A new thread is like a clean litterbox. Thanks Pete!
Congrats to the Dodgers. Didn’t look like a divided clubhouse anymore during last nights celebration. Winning does have a way of developing chemistry.
Thrilling sweep of the best team in the NL, LA delirious with joy, Donnie with a chance to get his ring, Joe giving all the credit to his players, Bowa beside himself—and none of it costing the Yankees a thing, since the Dodgers can’t impact our season (or even our post-season until the next time we’re in the WS). What’s not to like?
I think you repeat a frequent error in thinking when you say, “The Mets can’t just eat the $18 million owed to second baseman Luis Castillo.” I’ve heard the Yankee announcers say the same thing—you can’t leave X on the bench when you’re paying him Y gazillion dollars a year.
The correct analysis is this: the money is gone. You have no choice but to pay it, whether you play the guy or not. So the money should not be a factor. Field the best team. You are paying the same whether you field the best team, with X on the bench, as you are when you field a worse team with X playing.
“Using a lineup that favored younger players over veterans”
The yankees don’t have any young mlb ready players. Kemp Loney, Dewitt. The ones we fans hear about-Jackson, Montero, Romine—are at leat 1-2 years from being ready.
“going head to head with the red sox by competing on just player development and trades is silly because the red sox are better at those than the yankees.”
The suggestion that the Sawx are better at this is sad, but true. I don’t think that means that you don’t try to remedy this at the same time that you pursue free agents.
It would be like a fat guy not doing sit-ups because he’s not as in shape as the thin guy.
Building strength from inside the organization makes sense because it is more cost-effective than the pure free-agent approach. If Joba has a great year as a starter next year and makes less than a million dollars, he is worth dramatically more than Johan Santanna even if Johan maintains his league-best performance.
If you can get to a point where 2-3 starters are home-grown and/or under control it allows you to go bonkers spending money on bats. When even mediocre pitchers are making $12M per year, the incentives to develop your own pitching are irrefutable.
randy l,
To say the Dodgers show that the Yankees should outspend everyone else to get the best FAs available is nonsense.
The Dodgers made some TERRIBLE FA signings (Pierre, Jones) and are in the playoffs despite them, not because of them.
The Dodgers got Manny in the kind of situation that most teams never experience in ten years: a great player forces his team to trade him, AND the team getting the player doesn’t even have to give up a great player in return because of the presence of a third team.
Pete,
As for the continuing Torre fetish on this site, please remember the following:
A. The Dodgers had a losing record in SEPTEMBER.
B. The Dodgers play in the weakest division in baseball.
C. The Dodgers’ 2008 record is two games better than their 2007 record.
D. If the Dodgers hadn’t traded for Manny, and he hadn’t played out of his mind, the Dodgers probably would have missed the playoffs.
E. The Cubs played themselves out of the NLDS through terrible fielding and hitting. Torre had nothing to do with that.
F. Most importantly, Torre was a horrendous manager in the playoffs WHO COST THE YANKEES CRITICAL PLAYOFF GAMES by making mind-numbingly stupid decisions (or non-decisions).
But by all means Pete, don’t let the facts get in your way.
Yankee fans should not root for Torre mainly because that makes our team look bad in the process. Why would any team want that? Last time I checked Torre’s ring doesn’t count as #27. And Mattingly’s first should be in pinstrpies, not Dodger blue. This is all moot as the Red Sox will win the World Series, again.
Thanks, Cashman, for passing on Sanatana. It’ not as if he could’ve made a difference or Hughes and Kennedy didn’t combine for a grand total of zero wins or Melky was an offensive force.
Congrats to Joe Torre and Don Mattingly! Congrats to the Red Sox too.
Without the Boston Red Sox agreeing to pay every penney of Manny Ramirez’ salary while Ramirez palys for the Dodgers, there are no playoff in Los Angeles.
This is not a knock on Joe Torre. I respect him and wish him the best. He’s a class act and a Yankee legend.
But in the frenzy of stories that put blame on the Yankees for parting ways with Joe Torre,I would like to see at least one media outlet give credit where credit is really due. The Boston Red Sox, in large part, financed the Los Angeles Dodgers’ playoff success.
It would be a perfect ending if Joe Torre wins a World Series against Boston with Manny Ramirez hitting a game breaking home run in Fenway and all the while the Red Sox pay Manny to beat them. Now THAT’s a story.
“The suggestion that the Sawx are better at this is sad, but true. I don’t think that means that you don’t try to remedy this at the same time that you pursue free agents”
Very true. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. The past 2-3 drafts have shown that the Yankees are capable of drafting fairly well. Even while signing (or resigning big money players).
Besides, it’s not as if one of the yankees big money players have stunted the growth of a Hughes or a Kennedy.
Tom,
I think the 2008 draft is considered to be disaster. The Yankees failed to sign the first 2 picks and the 3rd pick could be an Ian Kennedy clone.
Manny is a bad-hair day away from taking days off with mysterious (or really, non-existent) knee injuries, holding up signs to be ‘traded for Brett Favre’ to the camera in the dugout and forgetting that he is supposed to return to the field when the next inning starts.
He doesn’t want to be here and I don’t want him here.
NO POLITICAL TALK PETER!!!!
Drive 4-5
The 2008 looks like a disaster now, but to be fair it is impossible to know how good a draft is until much more time has passed. Maybe Marshall turns out to be a stud or Bleich (who was the 2nd pick – between Cole (hiss) and the kid from Ole Miss.) turns out to be good.
I still want to know exactly what happened with Cole – that was tremendously disappointing to me. I can’t believe that Boras wanted it to end up the way it did – and obviously the Yanks didn’t – so what the hell was going on in Cole’s camp that put the whammy on the deal?
Drive, The 2008 draft was a disater in terms of not being able to sign those Cole and Bittle (who may have shoulder problems). But the Yankees do get extra picks in next years draft.
Neither of these kids not signing are the Yankees fault.
Gotta feel good for folks who are former Yanks, but who were all disrepected or unwanted by management last year in one way or another.
Good for them for beating the Cubs.
Who cares that they had a bad record in a crappy division? The goal is to get into the playoffs and play your best ball at that point. Bunch of sore losers posting on Pete’s blog.
How can you not root for Torre, Donnie and Bowa?
What was Lou Piniella thinking when he took the job with a snakebit franchise like the Cubs ? He’s better off to resign and take a job as an advisor to Brian Cashman. The Steinbrenners would welcome him back in a New York minute.
Lou and his wife Anita still have many friends in the metro NYC area and he lives in Tampa.
He could be of help to Cashman as a talent evaluator on the big league level as well as all the minor league affiliates up and down the east coast.
TKinDC, From what I’ve read it was Cole’s father who pushed Cole into college. Their a real wealthy family so money is not a problem.
And thanks for the reminder on voting, Pete. I just sent in for my overseas ballot tonight. We’re very fortunate as Americans to get to vote.
I wonder how the new rule for the August deadline effects the draft.
Teams can no longer draft and follow late round picks
Joe Torre is awesome.
Maybe some people were too harsh to him when they said it was his fault. But we (everybody outside of that clubhouse) don’t know how good managers really are. The only thing we can judge them on, are the performances on the field and the decisions they make.
Maybe it was time to replace him, maybe it would have been better not to. It’s really hard to say, because nobody of us knows how Joe Torre really manages. How Joe Girardi really manages. 90% of it is done in the clubhouse and before and after games, I would say. How do they motivate people? How do they handle wins and losses? Etc.
But after all that time we have watched Joe Torre manage teams into the postseason and all the way through proves one thing: He is not a fluke, he is the real deal and a genius as a manager.
The future will show if Joe Girardi is a great manager as well. I sure hope so…
Go Yankees!
New Thread! YAY!
Congrats to Torre, Bowa and Donnie.
To the Cubbies-oh my. Next time get a voodoo priest to bless the dugout
I liked Joe Torre, thought he brought some very good things to the Yankees. Admired that he was able to get his last several Yankees teams to the playoffs. However, he got them TO and not THROUGH the playoffs from 2004 on. He maybe even could have gotten this year’s team TO the playoffs, but I seriously doubt he could have gotten this team, basically the same team he had the last several years, THROUGH the playoffs.
He was a good manager for the Yankees for most of his time with them, if not all of it. He did a lot of things well, some things not so well. He is not a WS pixie, not a magician, and not a genius.
Congratulations to Torre and the Dodgers. But the Cubs certainly looked like they mailed it in. They were awful.
Torre’s success with the Dodgers has no bearing on what he would have done with the Yanks had he been here this season. After all he didn’t get the Yanks past Round 1 the last few years and he got the Dodgers into the NLCS.
Congratulations to Torre and crew out in the land on sun. However, for how many more months, years, etc. are we going to have to listen to the same writers who canned Torre, now kiss his behind in LA?
We get it, the media doesn’t like Girardi because Girardi doesn’t cater to them, the way Joe did. Not to mention that the Yankees and the Dodgers are two different teams.
It has been a while since I have posted but I have to say I am very pleased for Torre. I think he deserves it.
Many here were critical of his managerial style and have stated that he would was lucky to be in the position he was in with LA because the division was weak. While the division comment would be true, the fact that keeps getting missed is that he is able to harness egos and get his players to respond when they need to respond. He did this time and time again with the Yankees but the ultimate failure of not winning a WS cost him.
Since then, the Yankees have done everything they can to discredit his success and the fans for the most part have joined in this effort. Bottom line is that Torre was able to do what Girardi could not, harness his players egos and get them to collectively come together when it counted. Instead, it was a year of up and down line ups, constant excuses about injuries, lack of understanding of his players and thus no playoffs in 13 years.
Torre by no mean could have won a WS with this years Yankees team without some severe luck, but the 5-6 games that were the difference from watching Boston rather than the Yankees is directly related to the loss of Torre.
People seem to forget that a manager is there to manage players egos, streaks, to motivate, and try to find a chemistry that will achieve success. Torre proved over the course of his 13 years that he was able to achieve such actions. Was he the best baseball manager, no. Did he have excellent coaches that helped him, yes.
It will be interesting to see what the tabloids have to say if Torre wins the WS with a team that is sub par against the Yankee team that missed the playoffs.
Congratulations to the Dodgers and especially to Joe T. How easily some of you forget what he meant to the Yankees and New York.
“A. The Dodgers had a losing record in SEPTEMBER.”
17-8 = winning record
criss-cross-farce: Since when did the Dodgers have the BEST team in the NL? Oh right, AFTER they just swept the Cubs. Before, they were a joke of a team who played in the weakest division.
Now, they’re the best team? Hey, it sure is easy to talk about hindsight. The Angels sure are the weakest team aren’t they?
See how easy it is to write such a vapid claim after the fact?
Congrats to Torre, and the La Crew. Now lets leave the whole “I gotta hate on Torre or else it makes Girardi look foolish11!!!1111” mentality aside.
“It would be like a fat guy not doing sit-ups because he’s not as in shape as the thin guy.”
tk in dc-
no it would be like the fat guy getting even fatter, so fat as a matter of fact, he takes up sumo wrestling ,and when the skinny little know it all who can do a zillion sit ups mouths off, the fat sumo wrestler does a flying leap and flattens the little $%#3$ under a mountain of blob.
the sumo wrestler then says” how many situps can you do now you little #4*$#%@@?”.
cashman has his plan. i have my plan.
It’s funny to watch the 2004 fan brigade come out and continue to trash Joe Torre. It’s unfortunate for them that they didn’t even know what baseball was before 2004 or they would’ve understood the respect fans have for this man and what he did for this team.
“I can’t believe that Boras wanted it to end up the way it did – and obviously the Yanks didn’t – so what the hell was going on in Cole’s camp that put the whammy on the deal?”
Kid’s father wanted him to go to college. Lot of reports that Cole suffered from immaturity. Is it that difficlt to believe his father thought it a bad idea to send him across the country w/ millions if he wasn’t prepared for it??? Certainly a gamble on the family’s part, especially if he is injured or his talent doesn’t translate to big time college baseball (I know UCLA isn’t necessarily big time, but the competiton he’ll face is). Still, there is a pretty reasonable chance that money will be there again in 3 three years.
I believe the accurate statement regarding the Dodgers’ September is that they had a losing record as recently as the beginning of September. However, they did turn it around when it counted.
“cashman has his plan. i have my plan.”
Isn’t your plan the one the Yankees have employed since 2001. Spend, spend, and spend some more. That plan has failed.
The Yankees have put roughly 1.3 billion into players the past 7 seasons. Nobody else has put up as much as $900 million during that same time. What’d that extra $400 million get them exactly???
No, I’m not happy for Joe Torre to be honest. I guess I will be if he faces the Sox and beats them, but although I really loved Joe, I’ve had more than I can take of his sanctification. He didn’t get out of the first round for several years in a row, but now he gets a complete pass because of this year? I’m also upset about how he handled the situation when he chose not to come back. He was bitter and even refused a chance to coach in the All-Star game because he didn’t know if he wanted to come back to the Stadium. It might have been a chance for Yankee fans to shower him with love, but no…...
To be honest, Pete, it’s stuff like this thread that makes me root against the Dodgers. I can’t handle any more media love for the guy – it’s just soooo over the top. I don’t like being force-fed Joe Torre to the point of gagging.
i don’t reason why i like someone.
for some reason i root for torre and mattingly.
the reasons come later when i try to figure it out.
i don’t root for arod anymore.
now i root for mussina when i didn’t before.
i have never rooted for cashman .
i root for manny.
i root for hughes but not kennedy.
...and it’s 150 days in a row working for me. too bad peter quit at 28. after thirty it gets easier.
I am one of those who believes it was time for Torre to go, if for no other reason than sometimes you just have to change the voice sending the message… 13 years is a LONG time.
And while there are unquestionably some things Torre would have done/handled better than Joe Girardi did this year, I also think it’s a stretch to believe that had Torre stayed, this team would have made the postseason, which is something I’m hearing a lot lately.
Losing Wang for four months is something Torre never had to overcome… And I don’t believe I ever saw Torre having to win with 60% of his rotation being as weak as this one was for most of the year.
I also believe if you take this Yankee team and stick them in the NL West with an unbalanced schedule, they’re in the playoffs. I have a tough time seeing that Dodger team, which the great Torre had play sub-.500 ball pre-Manny, winning 89 games in the A.L. East.
Finally, and I believe this is the most important point of all… They Yankees developed an OUTSTANDING bullpen this season, and look to be in great shape there heading into ‘09… They not only survived the move of Chamberlain to the rotation, they THRIVED.
It would require somebody who did not pay attention to the last many years under Torre to believe all those arms would have been developed had the old manager remained.
We need to be in last place for a year so that we can get some major game changers in the draft!
I’m not kidding. Let EVERYONE walk and get supplemental picks. Before you know it, we’ll have Tampa-like resurgence combined with A-Rod, Jeter, Posada in their later years.
I’m just sick of waiting for these great young players that we have to prove themselves. It seems to be working out better for other teams. Maybe we do over-evaluate our prospects.
Phil Hughes anyone?
(i still think he can come back and be dominant, i’m just getting a little skeptical)
I guess some of us aren’t allowed to have opinions that differ from either Pete’s or people who agree with Pete’s because that makes us automatically wrong? I find something both offensive about that; and unless that group has been annointed the head of the church, it could be that our reasons for disagreeing are equally valid – or even, gasp, the correct ones.
I don’t need anyone to tell me why I’m wrong to think the way I do, just as I am not mashing anyone who either worships at Torre’s throne or is totally pleased for his success or thinks any other positive way about Torre. It should APPEAR that a forum leaves room for a variety of opinions? Yes, I know that any opinion is fair game for comment; I respect comments that say they disagree with mine, tell me why, and leave it at that. I absolutely abhor posters who feel the need to tell me or anyone else why my/our opinions are (pick a word) idiotic, ridiculous, just wrong – or perhaps DELUSIONAL? Now THAT’S not unprofessional or condescending!
Now that I got that off my chest, I will say that I agree with the people (and there were many) who said they felt the contract offer to Torre was more than fair and that if he really was so devoted to his Yankees as he always said he was, he would have embraced it and proven that he still had what it took to be a winning manager in NY – and we all know that means taking it to the world series. He hadn’t done that for too many seasons. Where’s the incentive to give a manager who KNOWS those rules the same contract you’ve given him when he’s fallen flat for the past 4 years? So my resentment of Torre comes exactly from that. I don’t care that he wanted to leave; I care that he turned it into his own three-ring circus. There are no strings on the Steinbrenner’s tongue. Torre’s popularity had definitely waned. If they wanted him gone, they just would not have offered him a contract, period. It’s one thing for your Torre supporters to say that the contract offer was an insult. I can understand your saying that. It’s quite another for you to say they didn’t really want him back. We on this side of the fence disagree as strongly with your thinking.
Next, I think the people who have said that the two situations (NY and LA) are not to be equated have said it best. It is ludicrous to even try to compare the two. MAYBE if Girardi had a pitching staff that remained healthy and no major players go down and an uncompetitive division, and ended up with a record worse than the Dodgers, then you would certainly be on strong ground to talk about the difference in managers. Otherwise it is craziness to try to compare the two.
Finally, Peter himself with his over-the-top obvious subjectiveness and dumping in all the unnecessary extras in trying to make his case causes the polarization on this forum because it causes the people who agree with him to take up the banner and the people who disagree to have to make their own case in an equally strong fashion.
If Pete’s trying to “stimulate discussion” he certainly knows how to do it.
Good for Torre, and especially Bowa and Mattingly. As Manny pointed out, when you don’t have pressure on you, you can do a lot of things well. Best reason to go to LA and stay away from NY.
I’ll just add that even if Torre managed to get the Yankees to the postseason (interestingly enough, right from the beginning of the season, a lot of the baseball pundits didn’t think the Yankees would make it to the postseason, and it had nothing to do with the managerial change; they called it a rebuilding year. So think about that) I think we could have worried that it would have been one and out because it is obvious the team as it shook out with injuries alone wasn’t postseason ready or built, and Torre hadn’t managed anything past one in out for three seasons.
Thanks for reading this.
Want to read the biggest joke. Read Klapishes article from today. Joe manager of the year (nl). Wow he only got the best hitter and just barely made the playoffs in the awful NL west. On the way down Joe G. Talk about the man love for Joe T. Only makes you wonder how many secrets they kept for Joe T.
By the way, I do not feel badly for the Cubs nor their fans. Their fans are the one who made Steve Bartman’s life a living you-know-what after that game a few years ago. Look, I thought it was dumb of him – but I’m fairly sure he did not make the error that opened the floodgages. Also, I’m sure he did not melt down on the mound like the Cubs pitchers did. No, these same Cub fans are the Bear fans that have booed Rex Grossman to the point of harassment (it goes beyond that, really; I’ve never seen a player treated like that) and so I don’t feel sorry for the fans.
“The Yankees have put roughly 1.3 billion into players the past 7 seasons. Nobody else has put up as much as $900 million during that same time. What’d that extra $400 million get them exactly”
UM lets see:
30 mil. for two seasons of Kevin Brown
17 mil. for two seasons of Jose Contreras
40 mil. for 20 starts from Carl Pavano
15 mil. for Jarret Wright
Millions more on Tony Womak, Raul Mondesi, Kenny Lofton, Steve Karsay, Kyle Farnsworth, Kei Igawa, ect.
some plan.
Curse of the rings
When the Yankees won the 2000 World Series, they declined to distribute championship rings to the entire organization, as they did after their 1996, 1998 and 1999 triumphs. The group of dissed employees, numbering between 20 and 25, privately placed a curse on the team, proclaiming there would be no more parades until they received their jewelry.
They called it The Curse of the Rings.
The Curse is now 8 years old. It attended a sleepover party last night and is going to see “High School Musical 3” today.
Brian Cashman tried putting this issue to rest when he gained full power as Yankees GM three years ago. These people aren’t getting their rings, Cashman told Newsday in 2006. So consider this our annual plea for Cashman to change his mind. His job is hard enough without having to worry about bad karma.
The bottom line is that the Dodgers are a team on the rise, and the Yankees are a team on the decline.
Sure they played in the weakest division in all of baseball, but when did that matter?
aron I had never heard that thing about distribution of rings. I don’t really know how that works anyway. Do organizations usually distribute rings to their entire organization? Who were the 20-25? I mean, where were they on the food chain? Vendors? Secretaries? I truly don’t know how that works so really would love more information.
aron
So what are you suggesting? Do Mo, Jeter, and Posada have togo to the depths of Mordor and destroy the rings?
trisha, i don’t think too many people are reading your posts right about now.
As far as the Cole debacle: the Yankees obviously did not due their due diligence.They should have known there was a probability that Cole’s father wanted his son to go to college. There are ways to find these things out before expending your first round pick on a player you may not be able to sign.
I understand that not every first round pick comes to a contract agreement. In Coles case, money was not an object. How could the Yankees not know that the father was adamant that his son go to college?
Also, to not sign 2 of your first 3 picks while putting more emphasis on minor league development is inexcusable. By no means does Cashman or his minions get a pass on this.
Tom
You are right on the mark. I don’t wish to diminish Joe Torre’s accomplishments, but he seems more of an opportunist to me than a victim of corporate greed. When he arrived in NY the Yankees were “on the rise.” His move to LA may be more prescient than reluctant—move from a team of aging former stars to a team of young potential stars. Clever, but certainly not grounds for victimage.
“Sure they played in the weakest division in all of baseball, but when did that matter?”
Tom it definitely matters when you are in a division where 84 wins get you in and in the other divisions in your league, 84 wins didn’t even get you 4th place in one of the divisions, and would have been good for no more than third in the other.
It matters most of all when people try to make comparisons that shouldn’t be made, when the team they’re trying to diss ended up with 87 wins and couldn’t make it in because all of the other teams that did ended up with over 87 wins.
The Cubs were just as meager this time, and Alfonso Soriano was even worse; he was 2 for 14 last fall, 1 for 14 this time.
As the crowd waved towels and whooped, the Cubs went down meekly, with Soriano striking out to end it.
=======================================================
I’m so glad we got rid of that loser named Alfonso Soriano. oh wait, we’ve Arod…..
“trisha, i don’t think too many people are reading your posts right about now.”
stuart, obviously you did. Thanks for that!
Trisha, its pointless to try and justify why the Yankees missed the playoffs aside (so now those hacks in the media were right? what?).
I honestly do believe that the Yanks wanted Torre back.
However, I think that they only wanted him back so they would have justification to hand him the axe either early in the season of around all star break. And you know what? That would have been acceptable. Even if Wang, Posada, Arod had gone down, he still failed.
Injuries are not excuses. Players hit horribly w/ RISP regardless of injuries.
But like Torre said, he probably should have been gone sooner. If he hadn’t of signed that massive contract from Steve Swindle, Torre would have been gone.
That aside, its refreshing to
... refreshing to see the feel-good story of Torre and Manny trying to capture that ellusive World Series Title after all these years….
Buster, when I talk about hacks in the media, I am only talking about the lesser-rans of the NY press. They certainly are not pundits in my books as I hardly consider their opinions authoritative. Just thought I’d clear that up.
“It was by design meant to get rid of Torre. It was less years than he wanted as well. The whole thing was set up to look like a lot, yet it was a slap at him, making it seem as though he didn’t care if he even got to the playoffs, or beyond round 1.”
Torre’s past contracts always had incentives for winning playoff rounds as well as winning a particular number of games.
I have nothing against Torre and I would much prefer to see the Dodgers or anyone win that isn’t Boston, but truth to told Torre wasn’t being honest win he said the incentives insulted him. If they did insult him he would have quit a long time ago.
Now maybe the length of the contract insulted him but the incentives which had been a part of his old contracts certainly shouldn’t have insulted him.
Source: http://tinyurl.com/4tq5qv
“refreshing to see the feel-good story of Torre and Manny trying to capture that ellusive World Series Title after all these years….”
please. go. away. trisha. NOW.
trisha,
I attended a wedding last week and got to wear not 1, not 2, but 3 Yankee World Championship rings.
George Steinbrenner, a Williams grad, befriended a local innkeeper. The wedding was at the inn. The inkeeper keeps the ‘96,’98 and ‘99 rings that George gave him in a dislay case.After seeing me admire them, he took them out and let me put them on. It was pretty cool, to say the least.
I have no idea how many rings the Yankees gave out. But I do know that George Steinbrenner was very,very generous to a lot of “little” people he met along the way. I hear a lot of local stories about things Steinbrenner did for ordinary working folks here.
raymagnetic, aha! and good catch.
“Isn’t your plan the one the Yankees have employed since 2001. Spend, spend, and spend some more. That plan has failed.”
fredo corleone-
you might notice the yankees never missed a the playoffs under that plan
of spending heavily, i also said they should also spend heavily on the minor league system. but it’ll be 3-5 years before any offensive players come out of the yankee system.
... and aren’t you the guy yesterday who said you supported cashman’s plan for hughes, kennedy , and joba?
why don’t we sort that one out first before we move on to your other plans.
while you’re trying to spin that incorrect prediction,do you also support cashman’s youth plan with a cashman built minor league system that doesn’t teach brett gardner how to bunt?
do you also support cashman doing things firing neil allen after allen singlehandedly taught chien ming wang his sinker and created an instant star , and have allen now teaching the latest tampa rays like david price what he learned under billy martin?
do you support cashman overseeing the system when there is a coaching drain in the yankee minor league system?
what exactly do you support?
i asked you yesterday was for your timeline for bringing young pitchers to the majors.
now that’s an important decision for the yankees to make in 2009.
they clearly blew it last year.
how should they do it this year?
i say 25( like the twins average age this year for young starters) is the age when a prospect should pitch his first full year. 24 sometimes. 23 is red flag territory. 22 is clearly asking for trouble. 21 is “fire the gm” territory.
if you can’t talk about developing young pitchers, what exactly is it that you’re talking about?
Drive 4-5, there is no question that Steinbrenner’s generosity is legend. That’s why I was asking Aron the questions. I do not know the ins and outs of who gets rings, who does not, and why. I was seriously interested in hearing what Aron had to report on that, if there is indeed anything to what he reported.
“you might notice the yankees never missed a the playoffs under that plan
of spending heavily”
They spent over 200 million this year and missed the playoffs.
trisha, the fact of the matter is that the dodgers did their job and the yankees didn’t. Sure it was the path of least resistance, but they won their division and the Yankees finished third. It happens.
I know this comparison has been made before, but should the 2000 yankee’s give back their rings?
a total aside, and i may be behind the blog on this one, but if the dodgers play the red sox in the world series, manny will get full shares from both teams and two rings no matter who wins.
(teams give out loser world series rings too)
Tom, my point is that I didn’t see anyone make great haste to comparisons about the Yankees and other teams in 2000. It is equally bonkers to do it about the Dodgers and this year’s Yankees, trying to equate IN THE LEAST that someone who managed a team with 84 wins into the postseason would have UNEQUIVOCALLY gotten a team with the Yankees staff and injuries into the postseason. It is apples and eggplant.
That’s my only beef with this whole thing. Otherwise it matters not to me that a team finishes with any particular kind of record.
Curse of the rings? wait, you not suppose to distribute the rings to everyone even the janitors? huh??
Trisha – I just woke up and saw your long post. lol. I actually took the time to read it. Agreeing with you? Yeah, I do. If Torre was in fact still with the Yanks, we might be in the same situation. This things you can’t foresee the future, just a whole bunch of “what if” questions.
Hmmm. Interesting to see my tagline morph back into and old one without my changing it. I just changed it back.
Couldn’t be happier for Joe and my idol Donnie.
Torre, Bernie, and Donnie the player earned the right to leave this organization on their terms.
But they all got pushed out the door before they wanted to be.
Class organization all the way around.
Makes you realize that you’re a grown man rooting for a piece of laundry.
Diggedy : The Self Hating Yankees Fan.
: )
GO DODGERS!!
“They spent over 200 million this year and missed the playoffs.”
they ray, what’s up?
they only signed latroy hawkins last year. i think we would both agree that’s not spending big. last year , cashman took control and cut back on signing free agents. that’s a fact.
teams that make the playoffs every year are going to rachet up salaries because other teams want players who have made the playoffs. to keep these players takes overpaying. everyteam that has a playoff run will face it. look at cleveland. a few playoffs and they has to back off because they didn’t have the cash to cintinue. it’ll happen to the rays as well. the twins or a’s don’t make it every year and retool that way.
i just think the yankees are different in that they have the money to always be in the playoffs. you are right that it would have taken even more than 200 million for them to make it this past year. probably another 20-30 million.
of course, they lost at least 30-50 million by not making the playoffs, so was capping things at 200 million a smart financial decision?
” hey ray” i mean.
So this just proves that it wasn’t the manager who was the problem… it was the GM.
They fired the wrong man.
“that someone who managed a team with 84 wins into the postseason would have UNEQUIVOCALLY gotten a team with the Yankees staff and injuries into the postseason”
Trisha, I wasn’t arguing that fact. It’s a logical fallacy. Nobody can claim to know how Torre would have fared this year with the yankees.
Hey Torre haters—I think your whole argument of The Dodgers being in a bad division and winning less games than the Yankees goes out the window after he sweeps a 97 win team managed by Pinella that threw Zambrano, Harden and Dempster who were three of the better starters in baseball.
I hope he wins the World Series this year. He deserves it for all the Randy Levine type snipes/moves that had been going on here for years.
What we saw this year was the collection of players on this team didn’t have the heart/chemistry/will what have you, to be winners.
I think the only thing holding them together was Torre.
Yeah he burned out the pen, but maybe if Cash got off his arse and got him more than 2 or 3 relievers he could count on, that might not have happened.
Drive 4-5, You are so right about George’s generosity, especially to the people of Williamstown and particularly the faculty of the school who had taught him and after. I am friends with someone high up in the Williams College administration and they have always talked about what good George has done.
“they ray, what’s up?”
I always refer to them in the third party I believe.
“i just think the yankees are different in that they have the money to always be in the playoffs. you are right that it would have taken even more than 200 million for them to make it this past year. probably another 20-30 million.
of course, they lost at least 30-50 million by not making the playoffs, so was capping things at 200 million a smart financial decision?”
I just don’t know who was available last year that they could have signed. Torii Hunter signed his contract in November while the Yankees were still pursuing Santana. Offensively there wasn’t anything really good on the market. There weren’t very many pitchers either who would have made a big difference.
I do hope they spend this year on Sabathia and Texeira and I think or at least I hope that they’ll go hard at both of them and make them offers that will be extremely hard to refuse.
If they don’t get Manny, Arizona wins the division. Nice that LA has an actual GM who makes gutsy moves, unlike Cashman who thinks Ian Kennedy and Brett Gardner are good players.
Torre is a genius, its Cashman who’s the fraud.
Why is Levine even employed anymore? Now that the new stadium is done, what exactly does he do other than stick his nose in other people’s business?
Just the fact that Hal allows him and the landscaper/gardner Felix Lopez in the organization shows he has no idea what he’s doing.
Randy,
I’d also like to see Manny on the team next year as well.
Well I bet Joe has a huge weight lift off his shoulders
Congrats.
This has to be eating Cashman alive, watching Torre go deep into October without the Yankees resources. If he has any backbone, he goes crazy in the FA market and surrounds Girardi with a dominant team to shut the detractors up and give him a chance to win with a good team. Girardi doesn’t deserve the hits he is taking, so if Cash has any regard for him, he gives him a flawless team he can win with. Not the mediocrity we’ve seen for the past 3 years.
it’s great for Joe. I like Torre overall. the Dodgers and the Yankees this year both earned their positions.
but let’s face it, once Zimmer left Torre was not as good for the Yankees. the primary example being the 2004 ALCS, a defeat Torre contributed to as much as anyone not named Tom Gordon.
the biggest, most obvious errors being going passive on the bases against Wakefield in game 5, when Veritek was catching and obviously having a hard time – it was driving me nuts that Cairo didn’t try to steal 3rd. and then some of the pitching decisions – going too long w/Brown and then bringing in Vasquez to Damon with the bases loaded being the most maddening one.
last night was the first series Torre’d won in October since the 2004 ALDS. Since he definitely should get credit for the 4 rings & 6 pennants, he also has accountability for 2004 on.
I am going to attempt to make a case for what Cashman did. It backfired, but as Ed just pointed out hindsight is always 20-20.
Cashman had taken a lot of heat for being an organization hellbent on trading away its prize prospects in order to get the star du jour. And while those stars du jour hung around and got older and sometimes less productive, our prospects were thriving around the league. So Cashman, once he got the autonomy he was seeking, said enough. We’re keeping our kids. So this year, instead of going after the Santana star du jour and selling off some of our touted prospecdts, Cashman did what everyone had criticized him in the past for not doing! He held onto the prospects. Now in doing that, the trade off was that he had to rush some of the kids up in order to have a starting rotation. And okay, it didn’t work out. Nobody saw Wang going down either, so that compounded the situation. If Phil and Kennedy ending up pitching well, Cashman would now be called a genius.
Cashman said it best that he was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t in terms of attempting to go with the youth movement and not trading away prospects.
please. go. away. trisha. NOW.
SMITHY. Don’t. bother. reading. my. posts. if. you. don’t. like. them. COOL.
We all know how this will end. Dodgers will make it to the WS, Red Sox will easily sweep them and continue their dominance of Southern California teams.
Red Sox have swept the Angels 3 times since 04.
Patriots beat the Chargers 2 years in a row
Celtics beat Lakers
Now the Red Sox will sweep the Dodgers.
Personally, I could care less who wins that series, I won’t be watching. Disastrous either way.
i could lead the dodgers to the playoffs with that division
“but let’s face it, once Zimmer left Torre was not as good for the Yankees. ”
There’s an article in the Daily News where Zimmer says that he talks to Torre every week. Maybe he’s still providing him counsel.
“i could lead the dodgers to the playoffs with that division”
It’s not even that simple. LAD wasn’t even playing .500 ball until Manny arrived. He’s the reason that they won that division. Without Manny, ARI gets it. Torre had very little to do with their success.
this is the link to the Curse of the rings
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spken055870619oct05,0,7664363.column
Joe said that he hated managing year the past 3 years and was relieved when he got out. We were not winning either and it was time for a change. 2004 – Biggest collapse in baseball history. 2005 – hard fought disappointing series with LA. 2006 – Awful series vs. Detroit, a huge upset. Not a person in America thought we’d lose that series. 2007 – Another 1st round exit after the great regular season we had. The common theme prevailed, we came out flat and showed no guts. We were flailing away at 85 MPH fastballs down the pipe from Rogers and Byrd in an elimination game at home. Carmona got waxed by the Sox twice and he threw a complete game against us.
What he does with the Dodgers has no bearing on us. It was time for a change. Hindsight is 20/20—just like nobody thought Hughes and Alfred would go winless when we could have had them for Santana. If he was here this year and didn’t make the playoffs, he’d be gone anyway.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Gil_Patterson
“Oakland A’s minor league pitching coordinator Gil Patterson has been a traveling man of late. Patterson recently traveled to the A’s Dominican academy and served last week as the Sacramento River Cats pitching coach for a four-game series. Now Patterson is with the Canadians in Spokane. We spoke to Patterson on Saturday morning about Michael Inoa,”
this is what i mean by a scouting and coaching drain in the yankee minor league system.
http://www.worldwidebaseballprospects.com/pages-added/gil-patterson.php
more gil patterson.
notice leiter and halliday’s endorsement.
What an awful pick Bleich was. He is basically Igawa. We got nothing out of our first 3 picks, we didn’t sign 2 of them and the one we did sign looks like a huge reach.
Cash and Opp have to take hits for this terrible draft we had. Cash also has to take hits for the International Signing Period, where we didn’t get any top talent. Even if you exclude Inoa there was still good talent. Our best player we signed was like the 8th-10th best player in Latin America. Farm system regressed AND we didn’t add any talent of note to the system. And then people complain about Bill Madden writing critical articles. What is there for him to be positive about? A couple of catchers in Low A ball (Romine/Montero)?
Red Sox covet Peavy…
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2008/10/05/solving_division_problems/?page=5
If Jake Peavy does indeed become trade bait in San Diego, watch the line form out the door for his services. Peavy, 27, is precisely the type of pitcher the Red Sox covet. And considering the close relationship between GMs Theo Epstein and Kevin Towers, don’t rule out the Sox. The Padres would want a Dan Haren-type deal, and the Sox have the chips to do it.
Alfred E., all good points. About the Detroit series, I personally blame Torre for that series, though finding out later than Kenny Rogers used pine tar on the ball REALLY infuriated me because you’re left with the “what ifs”. Detroit was the series where that malcontent Gary Sheffield decided to go the press and cry because Joe Torre wasn’t playing him in the postseason and he felt he was ready. This is the same psycho who said he was absolutely not coming back to play baseball until he felt he was absolutely ready in terms of his wrist (?). And because we were without both Matsui and Sheffield, Cashman went out and got Bobby Abreu. Abreu was magnificent in the Yankee lineup. It’s the lineup Torre was taking into the postseason. Until Sheffield started to weep bitterly, despite only having joined up again at the end of the season. He told the press that he BELONGED in that lineup and that he was more than ready to play. So what did Torre do? Put Sheffield in the lineup. And what did Sheffield do? NOTHING.
Good for Bowa and Mattingly- I like them.
Too bad it took Joe 5 months to play the talented youngsters (like Ethier, now batting clean up) over the veterans.
G. Love, I completely agree with your post.
After reading what has been posted by some, it is amazing that the comfort of failure is to bag on Torre and the division the Dodgers play in. Don’t forget that the White Sox and the Twins had a one game playoff to see who would go to the playoffs. How would the Yankees have done had they been in that division. But I guess Ozzie Guillen and Ron Gardenhire are both inadequate coaches who are just lucky they play in a weak division.
Like it or not, the Dodgers benefit from a weak division, but that ONLY gets the into the playoffs – remember the Diamondbacks were the team de jour for the first few months. Their defeat of the hapless Cubs has more to do with the SCOUTING by the Dodgers coupled with the managing of Torre than just luck. The Dodgers spent over three weeks watching the Cubs. When was the last time the Yankees did ANYTHING like that.
Instead, the Yankees let their decisions be deferred to the likes of Randy Levine, Damon Oppenheimer, and cluster wad of idiots in Tampa. These decisions go beyond just scouting opponents for the playoffs, they go to the rollercoaster ride that Cashman was put on and the uncertainty always present around the clubhouse.
The end result is where the Yankees are now, scrambling to put together a team that an inexperienced and ineffective manager can handle while selling the future to the Yankees based on above average AAA players that have shown very little possibility of every being something an expansion team would pick up.
As Yankee fans you can either accept it or continue to bash Torre, use the injuries, or any other combination of excuses. But, the Yankees are what they are because of bad management.
“What an awful pick Bleich was. He is basically Igawa. We got nothing out of our first 3 picks, we didn’t sign 2 of them and the one we did sign looks like a huge reach.”
Well, at least you gave him a chance.
shakes head
I never understood why Gil Patterson left the organization. With the reputation he has, I am still confused how that was allowed to happen. I realize that sometimes someone just wants a change of scenery, and if Patterson had a personal reason, well, there’s nothing you can do about that. But if he didn’t have a personal reason, then why not do it the old fashioned way, and give him more money?
randy,
patterson was the real pitching mind in this organization and let him walk. and then we wonder why all of our pitching regressed and hughes looks like a completely different pitcher than he was in trenton—patterson was the guy who developed hughes early on.
cashman and the rest of the org. is incompetent. they have no idea how to put together a good core of baseball guys. when we do get them, we let em leave and replace them with substandard guys. we are not creative enough to raid teams like arizona or oakland for personnel. a team with these types of resources should not be this thin in the player development department.
TKinDC – you beat me to it.
Great minds Joe, Great minds!
“Farm system regressed AND we didn’t add any talent of note to the system. And then people complain about Bill Madden writing critical articles”
Can you explain how the farm system regressed this year?
“What he does with the Dodgers has no bearing on us. It was time for a change.”
yes. the change may have been good for Torre too. if he was as unhappy in those last few years as he now claims, change would be rejuvenating. (though if he was so unhappy, why did he fly to Tampa to try & get a multi-year contract after 2007?)
Here in Chicago, White Sox fans are really letting Cubs fans have it…which is strange considering that the WS could be eliminated today. LOL!
I know that all of our postseason failures of late have sting to them, and I believe that 2004 resonates most loudly for most posters. I’m not one of them. That one was a killer because of the way it happened but when you look at the totality of the Yankees season, it was amazing that we were even there. So maybe that’s a tribute to the strength of the Yankees that year.
That one that stings for me and is a bigger embarassment was 2006. Murderer’s Row and Cano. I don’t think any Yankee team in recent past, save 1998, was so hyped by the press and so predicted to take it all, hands down. Thanks Kenny Rogers. Thanks Gary Sheffield. Thanks Joe Torre.
“yes. the change may have been good for Torre too. if he was as unhappy in those last few years as he now claims, change would be rejuvenating. (though if he was so unhappy, why did he fly to Tampa to try & get a multi-year contract after 2007?)”
Good question. It’s funny how both he and Manny are now confessing to being so unhappy in their previous jobs. Strange, Manny didn’t perform like he was unhappy. The Yankees have the lost games to prove it.
I think that this is all lip service. The only thing that bothered Torre about being the manager of the Yankees was the interacting with ownership. Other than that, he had the time of his life.
The LA Dodgers were not a good team until they got Manny. If Manny carrying the team on his back with ridiculous numbers can be attributed to Torre, then my hat goes off to him.
The Dodgers are a team with a number of good young prospects in addition to a large payroll and were due for a playoff season whether now or in a couple seasons. I congratulate Torre, Donnie, and Larry. I can’t exactly credit them, though, for the team starting to play well the minute ‘a certain player’ showed up and delivered an astronomical OPS and presence in the lineup.
The Yankees were fading as a group and no manager was going to change that. I have faith that Brian Cashman has recognized this, as far back as 4-5 seasons ago, and has the team on the right path…. hopefully back to winning the World Series.
You mean the words ‘Batting Eighth, Alex Rodriguez’ don’t inspire a warm glow and happiness?
Count me in – that was awful.
mark,
The problem is that if you surround Cashman with too many good baseball minds, he will feel threatened. He wants complete power and everybody to be subordinates. Thats why we will never get a good baseball guy like Josh Byrnes in here to work alongside Cashman. Cashman has an ego, Epstein doesn’t. Epstein has an advisory committee, why can’t Cash? As long as the committee is full of baseball guys (the kind the Sox have, not the kind we have) with fresh ideas and opinions, whats the problem? Again, Cash will feel threatened by that. He wants this to be his baby with no help from anyone else. He also doesn’t want anyone who is any good looking over his shoulder that could potentially take his job.
We just have to hope Cashman is smart enough to do this thing himself because he clearly doesn’t want the aid of top baseball man to help him with this.
“You mean the words ‘Batting Eighth, Alex Rodriguez’ don’t inspire a warm glow and happiness? Count me in – that was awful.”
I had forgotten about that. I think my psyche wanted to block it out of my mind.
Alfonso Soriano for arod was a good trade 2 chokers cant play in oct.
Torre forced Sheffield and Matsui back into the lineup when we had a winning combo in Melky/Bernie that provided intangibles and got so many big hits. We played the entire season with them. The Boston Massacre took place with them in the lineup, we won 97 games with them.
Yet Torre didn’t acknowledge the chemistry that was developed, he looked at the names.
You mean the words ‘Batting Eighth, Alex Rodriguezâ€â