Girardi is the subject on WFAN
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Go to WFAN.com to listen to an interesting interview Mike Francesa had with Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated.
Heyman said that Joe Girardi has problems in the clubhouse with the veteran players and it’s something he needs to address.
I’m sure some people will waste time wanting to kill the messenger or figure out who is telling Heyman this information. The point is that what he is saying is true. It’s pretty much the same thing I’ve been writing about on this blog since May. Girardi’s style takes a lot of getting used to.
This isn’t about candy and ice cream. It’s about whether he can lead a group of people.
Girardi made a few comments near the end of the season that he understands he needs to make changes. Hopefully that is true and he wasn’t just talking for the sake of talking.
It was telling that the Yankees didn’t relax and start to play well until September, when they were out of the race and counting down the days to go home. It’s also worth noting that Jorge Posada became a ghost when he went on the DL. Or that Mariano Rivera was furious for much of the season about the lack of accountability some players got away with.
Remember that game in Anaheim when Betemit and Cano gave up on that 100-hop game-winning single and neither got a speck of public criticism? How do you think Posada felt that the public was being told his shoulder was “improving every day” when in fact he could barely swing the bat and needed extensive surgery.
Or that any time the Yankees faced any two-bit lefty for the first four months of the season, the lineup would get changed around? Or that Tony Pena, who is widely respected in the clubhouse, was marginalized because Girardi only wanted to bounce things off “his” coaches.
Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking like they were trying to get the game over with and go home.
As I have said all along, Girardi is no dope. He can figure this stuff out. Brian Cashman will talk to him. Derek Jeter will talk to him. Either he will figure it out or at some point next year, they’ll be looking for a new manager. Finishing in third place is going to get old fast.
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on Tuesday, October 7th, 2008 at 6:20 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
“Heyman said that Joe Girardi has problems in the clubhouse with the veteran players”
I sometimes wonder if it was other way around. He is the guy that took over for much beloved Joe Torre afterall – maybe the older players i.e. guys that played under torre resented Joe G.
“Or that Mariano Rivera was furious for much of the season about the lack of accountability some players got away with.”
Which players?
Pete,
You bring up great points.
But this?:
“Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.”
When you’re on the field and at the plate, play to win. What happened to the pride, pinstripes crap that’s spouted all the time? This is on the players. Minor leaguers could’ve done better than some of these guys in certain situations because they care.
I’m not dismissing what you say at all, but the players need to be accountable, too. They’re professionals, highly paid professionals. They get paid to play. So go out and play.
Girardi did try to reinvent the wheel a few times this year (kennedy in kc, Joba’s early start, 490183.3 different lineups). Not to bring up his media relationship, which did involve players (Posada). Maybe his players just lost respect for him…
And, they only played well on that last homestand after they got embarrassed in that first game. Then the kids came in and took over and they played well.
Now that’s not a coincidence.
Or that Tony Pena, who is widely respected in the clubhouse, was marginalized because Girardi only wanted to bounce things off “his†coaches.
This annoys me as a fan. Tony Pena was up for the managerial job, and Girardi is asking Mike Harkey and Bobby Meachum for critical advice on the team.
Pete- its not about the candy and sweets directly but it’s what the represent…..these are adults and the way Girardi went about banning foods was crazy he was treating them like children. And that’s what we HEARD about….if he’s addressing them in that manner over food I can only imagine the way he addressed them over more serious issues.
On the flip side if the players (media or fans) are going to blame them not winning or scoring enough runs (2-3) in many cases on Girardi then SHAME on them. They are adults and they should be giving 100% each and every time they go out onto the field. You aren’t always going to get along with all of your bosses but as adults they should know how to deal with it. People make a lot of sacrifices to go see them in person (especially financial ones). Not to mention they (all of them) make too much money to ‘half-ass’ it on the field. It says more about THEIR character than anything else. As a fan I can tolerate not winning all the time if they give it their all….but I won’t waste my hard earned money on people that don’t care.
Mel: I agree with you, the fault is with the players. But I never got the feeling they were going through the motions with Torre.
Now, without question, Torre did not handle the bullpen well and he made assorted other mistakes. But the No. 1 job for any manager or coach at any level and in any sport is to get the athlete to perform to the best of their abilities consistently.
Look at how often the Yankees lost the first game of a series. Or their poor record at home when it counted. This team played with very little sense of purpose.
I find Heyman comments strange in that a lot of the veteran Yankee players had above average seasons: Giambi, Mo, Damon & Moose… the vets who didn’t have a good year were for the most part injured: Jorge, Matsui & Petitte (played hurt anyway)
“Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.”
That is a stinging indictment against Girardi.
“Girardi’s style takes a lot of getting used to.
This isn’t about candy and ice cream. It’s about whether he can lead a group of people.”
True – and it is about winning championships. Does everybody need to be in a blissful state of zen to hit? Then why are fiery managers – Pinella, Leeland, LaRussa, etc able to win rings?
Scott Rolen hates LaRussa’s guts – for reasons I don’t think have ever been made public – but was able to play at a high level for him.
Ozzie Guillen throws people under the bus all the time but wins more than his share.
I don’t have a solution (except that winning breeds chemistry more often than the other way around) but I think this is a misdiagnosis of the problem.
I find the players didn’t play for Girardi argument weak.
Reggie Jackson & Goose gossage hated Billy Martin (and I mean hated him) but they perform superbly under him.
It’s pretty pathetic if a team is so upset about the manager that they just mail it in. I’m not a huge Girardi fan, but I think that speaks more about the character of the players than of Girardi.
So, will having a healthy Joba and Wang. Maybe a CC or AJ. A fancy new 1B. Healthy Jorge behind the plate help the mood next season?
I mean, Jesus. They won 89 games with a half-assed effort? How about if they tried. Really tried to get the guy home from third with less than 2 outs?
How about tried to make contact instead of flailing at balls?
Maybe, just maybe they’d be in the playoffs?
If there’s problems, I won’t be opposed to getting a new manager. But this is really an indictment of the players.
And Damon, don’t be pissed because YOU can’t bunt.
TK:
Whether it’s a kick in the pants or a pat on the back, every coach or manager has figure out what a team needs.
Some teams are united in their hatred for a coach and win to spite him. That is Parcells, for instance. Others quit when they hate the coach, like Knicks last season.
To me, it’s awfully silly that Girardi would instruct the visiting clubhouse manager in Baltimore to take the ice cream freezer out of the room and hide it near the loading docks so the players couldn’t have any. These are adults. If you think somebody is out of shape, tell him to get in shape.
The food thing is silly at face value. But is speaks to how he viewed the players and in turn how the players viewed him. You want the manager to be a leader, not your mom.
The injuries thing also matters and this has nothing to do with the media getting a story. Look at it this way: Let’s say you have some sort of problem at home and it effects how you do your job. You tell your supervisor, “Listen. I’m going to through a hard time right now. I’ll be fine in a few days.”
Then your supervisor tells everybody else in the office, “TK is fine. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Problems at home? No, he’s fine.”
How would that make you feel?
“I’m not a huge Girardi fan, but I think that speaks more about the character of the players than of Girardi.”
Exactly – I have no say in who is made my boss but whoever it is – I go about my job in the same way.
of course we need pitching, but for people to say we can get pitchers and kick giambi and bobby out the door, well that just doesnt make sense
if we give away both we need to replace almost 200 rbi’s
we need at least 1 power positional player,that can make up for at least half, preferably a first baseman, someone like teix or maybe teix himself
pitching should absolutely be first on the list dont get me wrong, but a great positional player should be a close second
#9:
Their record is deceiving. They won a lot of games in Sept. after the season was basically over. Outside of that 8-game win streak after the break, they were a ,500 team when it counted.
Remember – wasn’t long ago that we heard the complaints that the football NY Giants thought coach Tom Coughlin talked down to them and treated them like children i.e. demanded they say “Good morning, coach” when he said hello, etc
Jeter and Mo seem upset at Girardi for letting it get out of control. That implies, to me, that they want him to lead and manage.
“So, will having a healthy Joba and Wang. Maybe a CC or AJ. A fancy new 1B. Healthy Jorge behind the plate help the mood next season?
I mean, Jesus. They won 89 games with a half-assed effort? How about if they tried.”
thank you
i agree that it wasnt about the ice cream it was wat it meant, kind of like if the boss takes away coffe break at the job because they think those extra five minutes would be of better use helping the company
the employees werent too happy because they felt like they were being treated like children, joe wants respect, but hes not going to get it like that
Well, whatever the back story is I expect Jeter to be pissed about it. Have you ever heard him when people put words in his mouth or speak for him?
Girardi tried to be too much of a dictator and it turned off a lot of players. The boot camp ST, taking candy away from the clubhouse, and Sweeney Murti said he gave a lot of Military/football speeches during the season too. If you were a player, would YOU respond to somebody like that? If he wants to be like that, he better win, and he didn’t.
I never realized how bad things were (ex. not communicating with players, ignoring everyone but Meachum/Harkey etc.) he has a lot of work to do as a manager.
I don’t think you can prove the Yanks were phoning it in Pete. Did someone tell you that or are you inferring this all on your own?
Torre was great, but made lots of mistakes in the past 7 years. Let’s not make him a saint. The players were pretty lackadaisical under him too. Girardi was the right option, IMHO. These are grown men who make millions to hit a ball with a stick. They can take a kick in the pants here or there if you ask me. Boo hoo, they can’t have their ice cream. A manager manages. Tough life, being a Yankee.
But that’s assuming what you are inferring is fact.
“How do you think Posada felt that the public was being told his shoulder was “improving every day†when in fact he could barely swing the bat and needed extensive surgery.”
Is just plain stupid. There is no way Posada would have a problem with that. Why are you floating this nonsense? Because you and the rest of the writers still has a grudge with Girardi? What do you think he should have done told everyone Posada cant throw?
Pete,
I agree with most of what you said although I am still a fan of Girardi’s for the moment. But I have to say that the yanks surprising ineffectiveness against subpar lefties did not start last season. This trend has been going on for quite a while now – I remember the same consistent inconsistency against no name lefties last yr when Torre was managing. If there was a lefty on the mound that none of us ever heard of it was almost a foregone conclusion that the yanks would lose. I dont understand it but it definitely didnt start with Girardi or an altered lineup.
i think it’s laughable that writers who have no clue what it is to be a yankee think they do.
even when they are in the clubhouse, the writers are on the outside looking in.
anyone who has ever been on the inside knows this.
not a single writer in this story knows what’s really going on .
they are just guessing. if they say they aren’t , to use pete’s favorite phrase, they are lying.
Starting 11-19 each year wasn’t going through the motions? how about how they performed in the playoffs the last few years? I love Joe Torre, and will forever respect him as a manager. I’m rooting for the Dodgers to win it all cuz of him. However, the guy lost his fastball with this team, and needed to go. The players got far too comfortable, and the pressure of winning never ceased.
As for Girardi, the candy and ice cream thing is infantile. That’s just dumb when dealing with a group of adults. However, I use the term adults loosely. They’re paid to perform, and the fact that their roll out the balls manager is in LA, is something they need to get over. I’d prefer they fire half the team, keep Girardi, and start building a winner with a combo of youth, vets, and desire, than fire Girardi, and pour perfume on a pig. Here in Boston, Francona got abused in his first year. It’s when the nickname “Francoma” came about. The worst thing the Sox could have ever done was can him. I hope the Yankees are smart enough to do the same.
There were 2 reasons Reggie performed for Billy:
1) They may have hated each other, but they had a hell of a lot of respect for each other.
2) If he tried to dog it Thurman and Nettles would have literally murdered him.
Jeter did call out the guy giving out the anonymous quotes to the media, telling him to reveal himself.
Heyman made a pretty big accusation that Jeter and MO were unhappy with Girardi. Unless he had good info, why would he go public with names and risk damaging his name? He is one of the most reputable writers in baseball.
If this is untrue, Jeter needs to speak up and protect himself and manager. If he doesn’t say anything, isin’t that an ominous sign that the captain himself has a problem with the manager?
pete is right.posada dissappearing,playing well towards the end because they were about to go home and enjoy their toys and mansions.
girardi needs to get everybody involved,respect everyones oppinions even the janitor,be more consistant emotionally and for the love of god,stop walking around the dugout with the look that everybody else is stupid compared to him.
Classic peter post and I listened to Francesa and Heyman.
Newsflash guys that make $28 mill or $10 mill or however many million they make, need to grow up… Players win or lose the games.. If Girardi wants to be more thruthful with the press that is fine with me, Here are some truths that he should say; arod is a mental case, he needs to become a man and grow up.
Cano needs to player harder or better or fine his butt. Giambi is a statue who hit 208 with RISP and he should refund the Yanks money.
Abreu might have gotten hurt hitting a wall 15 years ago but so what you need to develop some courage and play better defense… Listening to Heyman and francesca and there stupidity is classic, these guys make a living(stealing) doing this.
Girardi needs to stop the sun is shining positive crap and if the players do not produce bench there butts, King Jeter included.. He does not get a lifetime pass for past successes.. Do not shed a tear for poor Derek who has made about $200 mill in his career to play baseball. If Arod cannot handle the heat and play up to his contract, I got a idea, ask out of your agreement and go break records in Florid or some other place…
Did any of these unhappy “veteran players” asked to be traded during year – I can’t recall any?
the writers dont know every single thing that goes on in the clubhouse
but they are not blind, they can see and feel the atmosphere, players dont have to talk to show how they feel
we have never even been in the clubhouse, so how can we ourselves judge?
opinions are opinions, they arent carved in stone
“They may have hated each other, but they had a hell of a lot of respect for each other.”
No way. Billy Martin was a racist. Billy Sample sure could tell you.
I think the tougher ST and telling everyone to show up in shape or else was a good thing, but being a food nazi was a little too much.
This is all a byproduct of not winning.
I had no idea how Cashman thought he could get away with a rebuilding job with this veteran team on its last legs that want to win a ring. Guys like Jeter and MO were angry— they didn’t want to reflect on the great 12 years, they wanted to win and win now. These ‘clubhouse problems’ are a byproduct of that.
Not only did they get rid of a manager they loved, but they didn’t make the playoffs either. I don’t know why they would be a happy clubhouse. And Girardi is the easy target to take their frustrations out on.
#9-
watch your mouth .
I love the comments about sheets being injured prone followed by the idea that Burnett would be a better option. Burnett is no spring chicken – he is 31 I believe and he has had three seasons with 200 plus innings out of his 10 seasons in the majors. Just because one of these 200 innings was last season doesnt mean he has turned some sort of corner.
GUESS who had seven full seasons in the majors and had two 200 plus innings pitched before coming to the yankees? Thas right, the guy that every GM was dying for – our own Carl Pavano. Just because the 200 innings came immediately before he became a free agent didnt mean he turned a corner and stopped being injury prone. Its funny that I wrote a very similar comment about pavano the off season that we traded for him. Just be careful what we wish for cuz we just might get another pavano. CC is a better option than burnett for countless reasons. He is worth the extra cash for every single one of those reasons.
All this is no shocker to me. I’m sure Joe means well and wants to the guys in top physical form with the running and no sweets rules but his job is just as about soothing egos as it is making lineups.
Obviously it didn’t help that he came in on the footsteps of the old master Torre.
hopefully some fresh faces and a better overview of the bigger picture on Girardi’s part will translate to a more successful season.
17 wins in April should be their first team goal.
Maybe Girardi treats the players like kids because they act like kids..
If you think these players live in the real world you are dreaming. Arod is surrounded by so many as kissers who stroke him and tell him everything he wants to hear everything but the truth. They do not pay there mortgage, do there laundry, get there ry cleaning, they live like kings and are babied there whole lives…
Jorge is bothering me.. He got a 4 yr deal for boocko bucks and if he cannot play catcher anymore he needs to do what is right for the team and make a change.. Jorge seems a bit petty..
Billy Martin is a god.
Harwood: So, if what you say is true, why did Posada almost never come to games when the team was in New York? Girardi would tell us Posada was fine and could play then not play him. We’d go to ask Posada how he felt and he would shake his head and walk away, asking not to comment.
I hope they don’t get Burnett. If they are going to take a flyer on someone, take it on Lowe.
The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.â€
I wish I could hear what the players think about this statement. Pretty big assumption on your part Pete to accuse professional ballplayers of mailing it in.
Go Yankees !!!
As I understand it …Posada himself said it was too hard to even watch the games on TV ..let alone be in the dugout.
Yanksgal,
They only did that in the half of the games. The losses.
Pete,
Do you think some of the problems with Girardi stem from his problems dealing with an ownership that undercut him all the time with the Marlins? Perhaps there is some insecurity left over there?
Posada wants to play not be a spectator and I don’t blame him. I wouldn’t want to sit there either not being able to contribute to the team. It’s kind of hard to jump all over others when you aren’t playing yourself.
Maybe the Yankees played better in September because, for the most part, Ponson and Rasner weren’t allowing 12 baserunners and 5 ER+ in 4 IP. Once Glass Carl and Hughes came back, they weren’t great, but they were an improvement over Ponson and Rasner.
So Giardi doesn’t get along with the media and now suddenly the players gave up on him and he’s the reason they lost. They were so upset by his actions and his SHOCKING marginalization of Tony Pena that they stopped playing, pocketed their self-respect, and phoned it all in. Makes perfect sense.
Stop trying to run this guy out of town just because he doesn’t like the media. Major league baseball and the Yankees in particular are NOT about you and your fellow scribes. Stop trying to make everything about the players’ and coaches’ interaction with the media.
Peter, was Posada asked to stay away, or, did he choose to stay away? Thanks.
That whole thing with Posada was a big screw-up. Girardi can only go by what the player and trainers tell him. Yes, Girardi was trying to protect Jorge. But in a way, Jorge is a competitor and probably has a hard time dealing with his own mortality.
Pete,
Are you saying that Jorge refrained from comment because he didn’t want to badmouth Girardi? Why didn’t Jorge tell you that he was injured and give you the details himself?
im still pi$$ed (and not over) the horrific way yankee mgmt. treated Joe Torre last year but honestly, what can you do at this point? new era, new coach, still have to play and win. i find it hard to believe people didn’t try on account of their angst towards the new leadership. if what you imply is true, it seems more of a message to the fo than rebellion against girardi directly.
if he wasn’t “communicating” to the team at the right times during the season, that’s a definitely a problem/managerial style that needs to be addressed, and I think (with help) girardi will.
“accountability”?? in professional sports????
Even if they rape and kill or sit on the DL for 4 straight years, they would still get paid millions and zillions. Accountability. You’re joking right?
Never gonna Happen.
How have the players acted like kids in a way that Girardi needs to treat them like kids? Does ARod not make sure he’s in great shape and ready to go all the time. He may not pay his mortgage directly (or pick up his drying cleaning) but he hires the people that do so. Have you ever seen Jeter, Arod, Mo or Posada not take responsibility for their actions? Have you ever got the impression that they didn’t come ready to play (which is different than struggling) that’s going to happen time to time…baseball at that level is not as easy as they make it look.
You treat people the way you EXPECT them to work/act and if they don’t live up to those expectations THEN you address with them. But Girardi had the food issues going from day one.
One thing about Posada …he doesn’t seem to have trouble saying what he thinks. I loved on Centerstage when he was asked if he hated the Red Sox …his answer …a resounding YES. I would think if he had a problem with Girardi he would be the first to open his mouth. That’s one thing I like about Jorge ..he’s not afraid to show his feelings and I think he would have commented in some form or other and not just walk away “shaking” his head. That would be so un-Posada like…
Pete,
Do us a favor, please? Tell the players we’re pizzed that they quit on the manager. We give them all kinds of passes for their defensive liabilities, unclutch hitting, and personal flaws. We demand effort!
Just kidding. But if the moment presents itself, maybe you can slip that in.
There will have to be a turnabout in Girardi’s managerial style and he has 4+ months to figure it out.
The rigid rules will need to be relaxed and the senior members (Jeter, Posada, Mo) need to be given full vocal authority to get on a player’s back when performing sub-standard.
Cashman can start by strongly suggesting that some coaching changes are in order for obvious reasons.
Every manager gets a mulligan for his 1st season. Girardi’s is used up.
Girardi and Pena were up for the same job, and Girardi got it. I’m sure they get along fine, and are civil, but in any field when two people are up for the same position, especially a supervisory one, there’s a weird vibe. I’ve personally been up for jobs against co-workers, or people you’re aquainted with, and it’s competition, one person gets the job and one doesn’t. It’s not that you disrespect the person, but the one who didn’t get hired thinks, what did they have that I didn’t have, and the one who did get it has to delegate work to a former adversary.
Obviously Girardi had some problems in his first season as Yankee manager with the press and seeminlgy in the clubhouse. But the players are making good money and should be out there giving it their all and not mailing it in.
But as Pete said, Girardi is no dope. Hopefully everyone will learn from this and things will go smoother next season. But I do think that there does need to be changes to Girardi’s coaching staff starting with Meacham. Love to see Bowa come back.
to change the subject would you do a Prince Fielder for Hughes swap?
it always bothered me when girardi lied.not many people are good at it but girardi is terrible at it.
a manager who is calm,humble,tells the truth,respects everybody equally will always be respected more than a manager who has mood swings,lies and acts above anyone else.
i love to listen to a torre interview because he is a very honorable,honest,humble person that you can and wan’t to listen too.i don’t have that same feeling with girardi.
Pete, I realize you have to shill for your fellow scribes but Heyman is mostly full of it.
You play because they pay you and you have a passion to compete. To say that the manager is the reason for lack of effort is a slander that you would not dare put in the paper.
Rivera and Jeter surely have enough juice to get on the other players. This is nonsense.
They were not good enough. Old players are less valuable in the no drug age. They have to get younger.
Wow, there are some real quality professional athletes there. Wah, I don’t like the way the manager is acting, I’m not going to play hard.
Tom
October 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
to change the subject would you do a Prince Fielder for Hughes swap?
no.if hughes turns into a great pitcher the yankees will never hear the end of it.the yankees have to add pitchers not subtract them.
August 10 th, Anaheim, the 100 bounce grounder…The season ended right there…..Ill never forget that , it played out in slow motion…..Do remember when Bob Lemon took over for a very uptight Billy Martin back in late July 1978, they played very loose and rebounded to win the WS….There is some credence to what Pete was illustrating….There is a fine line there when it comes to a players mgr….
Pete’s comments about Girardi have gone beyond tiresome, but this country has a lot more important issues in front of it than this one. Frankly, I’m amazed that people seem to care more about the condition of Posada’s arm than they do the economy. Then again, if things keep going as they are, no one will be able to afford watching games in person.
PAT M,
I can see the point of having fun playing. They should’ve hired Tommy Chong instead of Girardi. He would be super laid back.
Tonight’s debate better 100% be on the economy. I just lost 10 grand today in my retirement account, again.
But, it may not matter, since all four principal characters in the race are bimbos on the subject of economics.
Pete and Jon are writers. They’re paid to observe and to report on what’s going on.
You get the balls and strikes from the scorboard, you get the story from the writers. Joe didn’t help himself with his attitude toward the media from the onset. They can be a friend or an enemy. It’s not wise to treat the NY or any big city media in a confrontational way from the get-go.
He whould have had an easier time during this “transition season” if he relaxed a little. He doesn’t have to become the BFF of every media person but he needs to lighten up a little. I hope he learns or next year will be a long season.
bru, I agree. Just saw that posted on mlbtraderumors.com and thought I’d pass it along.
i hope every single player was watching last night as the red sox won
i hope they are jealous and angry, that they can’t believe they went home early this year
they should come back with something to prove, they should come back and win.
mel, half the team would be suspended as a result of contact highs.
Is Buck an option if Girardi gets the axe next season? or are they almost the same person?
The control thing with Girardi is perplexing, it worked for him as a player though.
“Harwood: So, if what you say is true, why did Posada almost never come to games when the team was in New York? Girardi would tell us Posada was fine and could play then not play him. We’d go to ask Posada how he felt and he would shake his head and walk away, asking not to comment.”
Again youre suggesting Posada hates Girardi because of the way he handled the media during Posada’s injury?? Would Jorge have rather had Girardi personally telephone everyone on the Royals to tell them that Posada cant throw to second base? You suggesting that Posada would abandon his team because of something so juvenile is insulting to Posada. I refuse to believe you. If anything was to account for Posada’s lack of presence on the bench during his DL I would think it was because Posada felt disappointed in himself. And couldnt handle being useless on the bench after it first happened and needed to come to terms with his injury on his own first.
and…
“Or that Mariano Rivera was furious for much of the season about the lack of accountability some players got away with.”
Are you saying Mo wanted Girardi to bench players who didnt produce in certain situations?
kinda like…
“Or that any time the Yankees faced any two-bit lefty for the first four months of the season, the lineup would get changed around?”
The thing you rip him on sentences later?
What are you talking about?
Zman: Um, I think we all understand the country has bigger problems. I write a baseball blog. Did you come here seeking answers about the economy?
I knew people would rip me for having the nerve to mention this. Oh, heavens. Well, two things: WFAN is a pretty big station and Sports Illustrated doesn’t hire idiots. Heyman knows what he is talking about and people who regularly read things here know I have mentioned the same things.
Whether you care to admit it or not, when the subject of the day on WFAN is whether Girardi is losing the clubhouse, that’s something worth discussing.
I have no agenda with Girardi. We get along perfectly fine. When Cashman came back back last week I called him for a quote and we had a pleasant conversation. I don’t get paid one cent more whether he is the manager or not, why do I care? I’ve yet to hear anybody expain that to me. I covered Jim Calhoun for 13 seasons at UConn. He makes Girardi looks like Captain Kangaroo in terms of press relations. You cover the team you’re assigned to cover.
My job is tell you what is happening with the team. This is what is happening with the team.
you gotta have faith(MOOSE FOR PRESIDENT!)(hopefully the rays kick red sox butt)
October 7th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
i hope every single player was watching last night as the red sox won
i hope they are jealous and angry, that they can’t believe they went home early this year
they should come back with something to prove, they should come back and win.
i can’t watch a baseball game now.it is too painfull.if the sox win the ws again i will have to be institutionalized.
“i hope every single player was watching last night as the red sox won
i hope they are jealous and angry, that they can’t believe they went home early this year
they should come back with something to prove, they should come back and win.”
Oh yeah, they’re all huddled together steaming about the Red Sox win. You don’t get it, do you? They care most about putting up big numbers to justify further salary increases. This isn’t high school sports. It would be nice if it were, but these pro athletes are focused on their winter trips and portfolios. It’s only the fans who project this rah-rah view upon them. Do you think Carl Pavano is tormented by how he stole $40 million from the organization? How about Kei Igawa? Is A-Rod planning to give back some of his outrageous fortune?
thank god for medication.
This is just more anti-Girardi propoganda. The fact of the matter is that there’s no reputable source to back up any of this info other than “if Heyman is saying it, it must be true!”. As far as I can tell, there are only two writers making these claims (one of which doesn’t even cover the Yankees) to be hard on Girardi since he’s not as open about clubhouse matters with the press like Torre was. Why is it that we never hear about Kat O’Brien, Mark Feinsand or Tyler Kepner coming up with these conspiracy theories about how the Yankees are so dysfunctional behind closed doors?
Remember last offseason when it was reported here that “a friend” of Mariano’s said he wanted to test the market and leave the Yankees because of how Torre left? This is just absurd.
pete abe:
as soon as i saw this post i said “oh boy”, because i knew that people would be jumping down your throat as always
dont take it personally fans (including myself) get a little testy when their team is sucking or sucked in the yanks case
“Burnett has a list of teams he does not want to play for, and the Yankees aren’t on it.”
lets all hope the sox are
i personally think the yankees made a huge mistake by signing arod.
that money could have been used to make the team much better.
his personality doesn’t click with new york.
i just heard something on the fan right now that made me sick.if the red sox win the ws this year it will be the 3rd time in 5 years.
No agenda with Girardi ?
ROTFLMAO. You can type those words, Pete, but a season’s worth of posting suggests the complete opposite is true.
Oh, and the story is not if he is “losing” the clubhouse. The season is over and the entire team is scattered to the wind. Did he “LOSE” the clubhouse during the season ? Maybe. I would say we need more evidence than writers interpreting what they saw, like someone actually saying it. Anyone on the team. Even one.
Pete — you’ve become overly sensitive to criticisms on this topic. If you feel the need to write (and write, and write) such opinions in your blog, you should be prepared for people to disagree with you. Plain and simple.
Hopefully things will be better with the team next season, performance wise and meshing together(players and coaches).
P.S. Bring back the candy
From the post: After Jason Giambi’s walrus-on-skates act, the Yanks crave a first baseman who is more than a non-throwing statue.
Adam: Mark, Tyler and all the credible writers who cover the team have written and blogged about these subjects.
ZMAN7777:
wow you truly have something against some of these players, of course some of these players dont give a rats tail as long as they are making money
but you dont think others want to win? you dont think they want a ring?
Pete, glad you still tell us what you know and observe, even if there are people posting here (with no personal knowledge of the clubhouse or the players) who throw it back in your face whenever it doesn’t agree with their fantasy life.
time will tell if pete is right,only time.
girardi seems too scripted and boring.hopefully things get better.
The only player who watched last night’s game was Damon because he is still a Red Sock at heart.
Nobody else cares, they are isolated in their vacation homes in warm weather cities away from the world. They got their paychecks. I don’t think they even know what the results of the division series’ were.
Girardi marginalizing Pena bothers me more than anything else written.
Players who care will play no matter who the manager is. Writers will find a way to do their jobs even if they have to bypass Girardi for “the truth”.
Ignoring the skills of an experinced coach and former manager suggests to me that Girardi isn’t open to acting on a viewpoint that is different than his. When managing 25+ guys over the course of a season, it’s going to take input from many and hundreds of different approaches depending on the situation. Not being willing to bring everyone to the table to figure the best way for that to happen scares me the most.
if they win the world series this year all of this goes away.
So you’re implying the Yankees tanked games because they didn’t like their manager? Please… This isn’t a little league team.
There is no more disputing that there is a big problem with Girardi.
Pete, Kepner, Feinsand, Sweeney, etc. all write about it and now Heyman breaks the bombshell. Pete gave credibility to Heyman’s claims too, so its not just Heyman pulling stuff out of the air. Hell, even Kim Jones confirmed that the veterans were ticked off.
The players are suspicious of Girardi, it is up to him to change that.
How about this for pathetic?
Mussina (a grown man who keeps himself in excellent shape) wanted to be able to celebrate his twentieth win with a rare burger-and-fries treat, so he had it brought in and HID IT IN THE EQUIPMENT ROOM out of sight of the food nazi. After the game when he went to get it he found that the two burgers had been stolen, so he made do with the fries.
Guys get desperate for treats much?
I have nothing whatsoever against the players. It’s just foolish to assert that a Red Sox victory fuels their fire. Winning is important to them, yes, but mainly as a vehicle to maximize their earnings potential.
This team is so in need of leadership. George left a gigantic vaccum in his absence and as a result, it seemed like all the levels of mgmt were acting independent of eachother. It was a mess from day one with the questionable rotation. New upper Mgmt, lame duck middle mgmt who was “on a big hook”, new lower mgmt. It’s a recipe for failure in any type of organization. Add injuries, guys playing for their last contract, rookies plaing with impossible expectations to meet, head cases, assorted softees and a new Beast in the East and presto! you have a 3rd place team.
Let’s all hope Hal cares enough to work with Cash and Joe in getting this organization back on its feet.
The roster is in need of a serious overall and they’re lucky that they have the luxury of a bunch of expiring contracts to ease that process.
Still, there are lots of “News” to wash down the bitter taste of last season.
New Stadium – New Roster – New Outlook: Your 2009 New and Improved NY Yankees.
Anyone else think Posada is bringing negativity to the team and dividing the clubhouse from the manager like Delgado did with Willie?
No secret that there is no love lost between Joe and Posada and Posada IS the true leader of that team (like Delgado is in Queens). The players might have joined his side.
Cashman made 2 big decisions last off-season: Santana and Cashman.
So far he is 0-2.
it is like beating a dog.the dog might not bite the owner but it will bite someone.i would rather my dog listen to me out of respect compared to fear.
if girardi treated his kids and wife the same way i might respect him more.
Pena is our best and most experienced coach and he gets the cold shoulder from Girardi.
Very disturbing. Cashman NEEDS to shake up his staff. If Joe doesn’t like it, let him take a hike. These are the Yankees, he can’t have it his way.
Cashman needs to do that ASAP before anything else. Get him Baylor or some experienced Zimmer-esque guy. Get Bowa to be the 3B coach. Give Pena a more active voice.
Red Dragon,
Are there any lengths you people won’t go to to find somebody else to blame?
Disgusting.
I’ll check back another day to see if something other than bilge is being posted.
Posada said that he couldn’t stand to sit and watch the games. It bothered him too much. Not sure how that translates into an indictment of Joe.
According to SJ, Joe was spoken to and his relationships grew with the players, and problems were smoothed over.
Kim Jones looked mighty fine today.
Did very well during the show today too. Not easy to put up with Mike’s ego for 5 hours and his rants.
She too confirmed everything that Heyman said. Slowly, more and more is coming out that really accentuates the clubhouse trouble this year.
So SJ knows more than Pete, Heyman, Feinsand etc?
Never trust people on the internet pretending to be ‘insiders’. People with those kind of insights won’t be posting on a Journal News blog.
“Cashman made 2 big decisions last off-season: Santana and Cashman”
Was he in conflict with himself?
some of you spend so much time trying to discredit what Pete is saying, it’s comical.
This has been talked about all year by folks on the beat.
Want more specfic examples? Check out the 300+ comment thread Re: Mariano’s shoulder surgery.
At some point, you can’t reject everything because it doesn’t it doesn’t fit your view of the team.
Well, you can. You would just be wrong.
Heyman is one of the most reputable writers in baseball. He is a national baseball columnist, he isin’t making anything up.
Think about it, why would he put out names of players like that if he didn’t have concrete proof? If Jeter calls him out on it, then we know its false. If he keeps quiet, then we know its true (maybe only partially but true nonetheless).
And there is nothing wrong if Jeter or MO have a problem with Joe, that means the indictment is on Joe if he managed to annoy such likeable team guys such as MO and Jeter.
Pete -
I just have one question – if the mood in the clubhouse was so bad, why didn’t you and others report that during the season? You did report on Girardi’s (mis)handling of the reporting of injuries and you did say that his lying in the one case would result in lack of credibility among the players. I never really got that connection, because while I felt Girardi needed a crash course in media management, I could understand his being protective if not of the players themselves then protective of whatever advantage he may inadvertently give an opponent by divulging certain information (i.e., our catcher can’t throw past the pitcher’s mound).
I certainly no longer doubt that there were issues in that clubhouse. I certainly misread the symbolic importance of taking away the candy from the kiddies. But there are other explanations for so many things. For instance, on CenterStage, Posada himself said he couldn’t bear to watch from the bench – an inning or two at most was about what he could handle because it’s frustrating to not be playing and to not be able to do anything about a game. You have written, and I have read elsewhere how players on the DL simply don’t have the same impact on a club as when they’re active, and players on the extended DL (season-ending stuff especially) don’t hang out all the time.
As far as Cano not being bench sooner, a reasonable explanation certainly existed in that there was no viable replacement for him. Melky was demoted. It also seems like each player was given a lot of chances. Maybe that ended up being a bad thing, I don’t know them personally, but for some people that method works.
As far as Jeter and Mo being angry about Girardi apparently overlooking the sloppy play of some of the players, well, aren’t these two respected veterans? I have always heard how these things can get handled in the clubhouse. Did they try to take matters into their own hands? I had heard that they had. Did they feel they weren’t backed up by their manager?
Girardi has a lot of adjustments to make, and I don’t want to “kill the messenger.” But it is very disheartening to learn that the team I spend a lot of time on didn’t care to spend the few hours a day they have to work giving all they had. They make a lot of money to do what they do – living out the dream of many. I also don’t think they ALL couldn’t wait to get the games over with. I have to believe, now, that some may have felt that way.
Perhaps the players need to adjust a bit, too.
And the last thing I have to say on this is this: does Girardi get a second chance in the spring or are people going to pounce on his first misstep?
Pete, simply, thanks. Great post, very insightful.
It all makes sense to me. It’s helpful in understanding what I can infer from what seems to be going on.
“Kim Jones looked mighty fine today.”
I always preferred Deb Kaufman with her girl next door look. Still Kim does look like she likes to party.
Meacham out at third, Thompson out as bench coach.
The players are ticked off that we did not make the playoffs. If we were still playing, none of this BS would have been uncovered.
Girardi has to show the team he knows how to lead them. Better yet, Cashman needs to show Girardi that he willing to throw him a life vest in the form of free agents this winter to help him in that process to win.
Whatever ‘rebuilding’ plans the team had slowly went out the window when all this stuff got uncovered about the unhappy players. Cannot rebuild with guys like Jeter, Mariano, Posada, A-Rod etc. on the team or you will get this. Mariano and Jeter were angry for a reason. It had little to do with Joe, it had mostly everything to do with not winning. They could handle his dictator ways if it led to the postseason.
Jeter will never confirm or deny.
That’s PR101 and Jeter has a master degree in PR. If Jeter confirms or denies this, the next time he doesn’t, it tells you what was written or said is true. Best to say nothing and let people think what they will in most cases.
why is this so hard to believe? would you want to play for a dictator/drill Sargent like girardi? especially when jesus himself joe torre was the guy he was following?
Meacham out at third, Thompson out as bench coach.
are you serious?
I agree with getting rid of Mecham. Maybe move Thomson to another position.
I think everyone realizes that Girardi had some growing pains. We have to rmember that this is only his se3cond year of managingand this team in its makeup was quite different than what he had in Florida in terms of the veteran players. I thnk hopefully we all agree that he in fact did learn something this year and will make some changes for the better.
The ONLY thing I have a problem with in this post is the point you made about Posada being a ghost once he went on the DL. Jorge on his centerstage himself said that he could not watch the games be it on TV or in person and he didnt like to come to the stadium when he wasnt playing. Are you saying there is more to that story?
Also if there is not accountability with certain players yes that comes on the manger but also dont players have to be on other players and provide some accountability amongst themselves. SOme of my favorite teams through the years had the kangaroo court where there was accountability/ I think that NOT having Posada being an active plaer this year really hurt this team in hat respect aswe know that he gets in players faces and really shows his emotions. Again on the centerstage it was talked about a yelling fit he had when the team was 1 hit against Boston.
Naturally Heyman, when Kim mentioned that Jeter had previously denied any bad feelings about Joe, said “well, of course he’s going to say that”. So, in essence, Jon is saying that Jeter couldn’t possibly be telling the truth …….what, we can’t take anyone’s words at face value anymore? Heyman is just trying to make headlines.
For what it’s worth, at around the time that the Mo shoulder situation reared it’s ugly head, Pete A. made it clear that Mo loves Joe…… I don’t have a problem if the players (esp. Jeter/Mo) may have issues with Joe handled a few things, but if they do have issues, it doesn’t mean they don’t like the man. Besides, Mo and Jeter are the kind of guys who would talk to Joe in private – they would never let any negative feelings they might have show in front of clowns like Heyman.
As SJ said, it is probably a player (not on the team in 09) giving Heyman this info so it isin’t entirely untrue.
Betsy, Heyman is just saying what Pete and the rest of the writers have been saying for months. Kim even confirmed it. Sweeney confirmed it. Kepner and Feinsand, 2 of the best in the business confirmed it. Plus the usual misfits like Madden/Sherman etc. did as well but those guys are irrelevant.
There is no more smoke, this stuff is real. Heyman is a reputable writer, even if it is recycled information it is still true. All these guys can’t be wrong. All of them agree it is a fairly significant problem too, not just a couple of things here and there.
It is up to Joe to change. He is managing a veteran team full of guys who have won or want to win.
No shocking news here.
I’m wondering if this is one of the reasons why Moose isn’t coming back?
This goes back to his lack of support from the coaching staff. he had an awful staff.
That needs to be fixed. Get him experience and get him guys that the players will respond to and can be ice to Joe’s fire.
Don Baylor is a perfect guy.
i dont want to sound full of it.. but if anyone read any of my posts all year, it was clearly obvious the vets didnt play hard for girardi… they never cared to play hard for him and gave in so many games..
girardi is in a tough position… he is only a few years older then most of the vets and he played with guys like jeter, posada and mo. That makes him more of a friend then a managerial figure. for the other vets, girardi has very little managerial credit with them.. and there is no real reason guys like abreu, damon, arod or giambi should just fall in line with what he says..
this is one thing that was obvious from the minute he was hired. everyone knew mattingly would have instant credibility with the players.. girardi not so much.
Pena needs to have a bigger voice in that clubhouse .. i think he should be bench coach. would be great if willie came back (maybe as bench coach).
http://tinyurl.com/Just-a-little-rust
E-Man,
you know what that is an excellent observation. mussina was one of the biggest proponents of candy and ice cream. i’m sure that really rubbed him the wrong way when it was taken away (even though he got candy back eventually).
mussina is 39 why would he want to play for a drill sargent who doesn’t allow ice cream and on a 3rd place team? might as well quit while he is ahead.
Girardi needs to get off to a fast start next year or he’s gone.
Another 11-19 start, Tony Pena it’s yours!
A Baseball related question:
Other than Wang and Nady, are any other players who are likely to be on the 2009 team arbitration eligible? Maybe someone in the bullpen?
Wang got 4 million last year and Nady 3.35 million. Are those numbers likely to change much for 2009?
We were so spoiled with Torre than any little miscue Girardi has with the Yankees gets blown way out of proportion.
He had a rocky year, especially with the media, I understand that.
But I think that we have to stop expecting Girardi to be Torre.
I guarantee you there are many teams out there that would take an 89-73 record from a rookie manager.
Jesus Christ! Blaming the manager for the lack of scoring … another low point in the history of sports journalism. The players are pros, grown ups and veterans, this shouldn’t matter. It just matters as much as my boss not being my best friend, which I’m pretty much neither of us cares much for that.
I heard a story that the first year Joe T was manager he decided to put a pitcher in the pen as opposed to the starting rotation. Well the player found out about it FROM THE MEDIA!! Not from his manager! This is from a manger who managed for years before he became a Yankee manager. ALL managers make miscues and mistakes. The key is to learn from them.
I still think Girardi is going to be a hell of a manager, just not here.
He isin’t fit for a veteran team. He needs a young team he can groom and mold into his own. A team that doesn’t have a ton of media or a team that plays in this tough division. He needs a team with some real young talent without the crazy owner or players who refuse to allow a rebuilding.
He would be perfect for the Brewers or Giants.
No offense but Moose seemed to do just fine without the candy and ice cream.
Also why not just go out and buy some candy if it is that important to you and bring it with you.
Candy cannot be that big of a deal in this whole issue it is just a piece of the puzzle as far as I an see.
Anyone know if Girardi had these rules while in Florida? As I said earlier I think that the biggest issue is that he could do that stuff with a young team and maybe needs to re-evaluate how he does what he wants with the veterans. Also as I have said before I cannot fault Girardi for choosing the coaches he did I am sure he wanted to have someone who he has worked with before remember not a single othercoach was of his choosing. You cannot have a manager and appoint all of his coaches for him they did that with Willie and it was always an issue and something takled about, especially when the one guy he did bring in they fired.
I guess I will continue to play the role of the hold out. Pete, no disrespect intended but I think it is at least a little disingenuous for you to say you have no agenda with Girardi. In my opinion you’ve been all over him like a cheap suit this season.
It is in my nature to almost need glossies to believe the negative stuff that is printed about people, so this will be no exception. The comments about the vets are a little too nebulous for me to give them much credence.
However, I also respect the opinions of those here who are willing to believe it without any further proof. I am just not one of them.
“No offense but Moose seemed to do just fine without the candy and ice cream.”
Good point Gayle. Geeze maybe the lack of candy and ice cream actually somehow improved his game. Who knows. (better concentration without a sugar high? – that would be one way for anyone who would have asked how it could have improved his game.)
I’m as pollyanna as they come, but I don’t have a lot of confidence that this situation can be rectified. Once you tune out, nothing will make you tune back in.
If you’re a true competitor, you’ll do whatever it takes to win.
I was hoping the malaise was due to the fact that they were under pressure to win because it was the Last Season.
But it’s sounding like that’s not true. The finger pointing and back-stabbing is more likely because that’s human nature.
So Girardi can change, but you only have one chance to make a first impression. I don’t think the players are going to see Joe G. in any different light. Sad because he seems like a hard-working, earnest man who cares about the Yankees and went out of his way to protect his players.
So next time Cano screws up a play, he needs to say what he thinks, “That was the biggest horse**** play I’ve ever seen”.
Next time a player has an undiagnosed injury, tell the writers, “Go ask the player.” even if the player doesn’t know what’s wrong himself.
When Bobby screws up a play because he can’t even stick his hand out to feel the wall, say what you really think.
When the heart of the order strands the bases loaded yet again, tell them what you really think.
And tell the players what they can do with the drumsticks and popsicle sticks.
“Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.”
Couldn’t that statement be considered pretty irresponsible in the least and slanderous in the most?
Personally, I like Girardi and Meacham and what they’ve done to this team. These guys are just a couple of mavericks who have gone into Yankee Stadium and done all those mavericky things like take away the candy, ice cream and toilet paper. They’ve really changed the way business is done in Tampa and the Bronx, shaking things up so that Joe can work on his six pack and yell at people who try to eat. He’s “Joe six-pack.” It’s a darn tootin’ great nickname.
For more proof on the great mavericky stuff this year, look at what they did, the got rid of Kyle “The Bridge to Mo-where” Farnsworth!
Girardi-Meacham ‘09
“Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence? The Yankees spent half the season looking to get the game over with and go home.â€
If that is the case that it is more of an indictment on the players than the manager.
Pete you should be out getting interviews this winter with all the FA’s leaving this team. If you contend that this is all true get some proof of it and break it open. Go get the Gary Sheffield quotes.
jennifer,
This if from Pete:
Mel: I agree with you, the fault is with the players. But I never got the feeling they were going through the motions with Torre.
Anybody that doesn’t realize Jorge has been the assistant captain of the Yankees for this entire decade hasn’t been watching. His time on the DL this year left a leadership void when the team was flat.
Trish
I was being sarcastic with the cvandy and ice cream comment with Moose. I think anyone would it had absolutely nothing to do with his performance. It was an example of that being just a smokescreen of things on a larger level.,
Moose pitched great this year because he made the adjustments he needed to make not becuase he had candy or didnt have candy.
Mel – I have to disagree with you if you had a boss that you had issues with you voiced your concerns to him/her and then left for a vacation. When you came back there were some changes made that made it seem as if your boss actually heard your concerns and was trying to address them. To me your boss has gained a lot more respect from me than if you voiced your complaits and nothing whatsoever changed.Your first impression may have been bad but because you see that your point of view matters and what you think matters you may change that impression.
mel, to accuse players of going through the motions is to accuse them of not doing their jobs. That statement to me could be considered slander per se. I think it’s a pretty dangerous statement for Pete to be making. And I would think that players reading it would be ripslit!
Agree with Trish, but I would like to see how this plays out. Pete does make himself vulnerable by running this blog and it is to his credit. From time to time, more dangerous stuff like this will come out, but that’s the nature of a blog.
Weather Man, I’m not denying that there were problems, but I will never believe that Mo and/or Jeter showed their hands in the clubhouse to such an extent that Heyman specifically mentioned them ( which Kepner, etc…. did not do).
If what SJ44 says is true, that Mo and Jeter took their concerns to Joe behind closed doors (which I believed anyway because they are simply not the types to do otherwise), and that the situation was basically resolved a month or two ago, then Heyman is way out of line and he’s just looking for a story.
If the players mailed it in because they didn’t like Joe, then as far as I’m concerned, dump every last one of them…..or make them give their salaries back. What is this, high school? In any case, I don’t necessarily buy what Pete is trying to sell regarding the Yankees going in the tank on purpose.
gayle,
I hear you, but I’m not talking about little things like candy or other rules.
Even if he brings the candy back, it won’t change what happened this year. If what Pete suspects is true, that the players went through the motions then there’s a deeper root of the problem that has nothing to do with candy.
I’m still holding out hope that the players had a general sense of “depression” because they lost Jorge, then Matsui, then Wang, and on top of that Joba. But true competitors would overcome the obstacles and be personally accountable.
I can’t believe that Girardi pissed off the writers and the players. That seems mind-boggling. By all accounts, he’s a good guy. A professional guy. Maybe his biggest crime truly is that he’s no Joe Torre.
Pete,
Thank you for bringing to light the clubhouse situation. It’s something that many of us suspected.
The rules on food really are silly, to the point where you can see how a professonal athlete would find them offensive. The ‘08 Yankees roster was among the oldest in baseball. These guys didn’t make a career out of major league baseball without knowing what it takes to maintain their health. The ice cream ban was more power play than anything.
Far more serious is Joe’s handling of public comments about the effort some players gave and his misdirection ( I don’t want to say lying) about injuries.
It’s easy to see how a Rivera, Jeter or Posada would bristle at Joe’s covering up a lack of effort by Cano or anyone else. On the other hand, the Red Sox had to endure the same from Terry Francona about Manny Ramirez and still won.
Personally,I got tired of Girardi’s handling of injuries. As a fan, I felt like he was less than honest to us. There’s little competitive advantage to being dishonest about injuries. It doesnt take long for the opponenet to know when a player can move as fluidly or his pitches arent as sharp. I thought it was an insult to everyone’s baseball intelligence. Yankee fans, especially like those on this blog, are pretty savy.
Hopefully, this was a year of on the job training for Girardi. This ain’t Miami and it’s a whole other world in New york.He’s not stupid, just a little anal. I wish him good luck in ‘09.
I think that fact that you’re calling for a player (Jeter) to straighten things out with the manager shows what is wrong with that clubhouse–and it rests on the shoulders of the players.
Girardi muffed a couple of things this year, but wiping the rears of the players or kissing yours isn’t on that list.
mel
I think that is what everyones problem is. He isn’t Joe T. But there is nothing wrong with that. Joe T didn’t do everything right, not by a long shot.
Pete, thanks for the heads up about the Heyman interview…wow, it explains a lot doesn’t it?
Jeter and Mo are not the type to air their grievances publicly.
Mo just won’t, and Jeter, even if he wanted to, wouldn’t, because it’s not a very captain-y thing to do.
Rebecca,
Heyman’s source was a third party. Slash and burn by someone headed out the door.
I think Heyman is overstating the problems in the clubhouse. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for them to change from a manager that they’ve had for years.
I think Heyman is trying to get a story going, and look it worked!
Kim Jones was downplaying the problems that Heyman said. She thought he had to work on it, but it wasn’t something that couldn’t change. Heyman didn’t seem to think so.
F’n Joe Torre. This is his fault. Shenanigans! I call Shenanigans!
Anyway, Whatever happened to Tom Verducci reporting on the Yankees? Does he no longer have anybody on the inside since Joe T left? If this came from him, it would be more credible.
Trophy Hunter said, “For more proof on the great mavericky stuff this year, look at what they did, the got rid of Kyle “The Bridge to Mo-where†Farnsworth!”
Great name for F’worth! LOL!!
will-
And how do we know that Heyman’s source was even telling the truth?
I think the NY media was spoiled rotten by St. Joe. They should try a season with Piniella or Ozzie Guillen. I think in life you take people the way you find them and report what they say. It seems the sports writers became investigative reporters when they didn’t feel they were given what they should have been given.
But since I disagree with Drive 4-5 on this one thing – that managers shouldn’t withhold information about injuries as a matter of strategy – then I have no problem with the way Girardi dealt with the media.
Is the Girardi-Jeter et al thing a big issue? Most likely not. Its nothing CC wouldn’t cure.
Taking candy away wasn’t really the problem, it was the dictatorship that he showed. He needs to win something before he establishes these ridiculous rules. Same with the boot camp spring training.
Don’t think these rules are not the laughingstock of baseball clubhouses. You really think CC, who has his choice of places to go, wants to play for Girardi and adhere to his Boarding School rules? This is baseball, it is supposed to be fun. Look how much fun the young Dodgers are having.
Girardi has a long way to go
mel
Not sure slash and burn is the case here.
Most of Heyman’s sources have always been of the staff, front office and agent variety.
“Anyway, Whatever happened to Tom Verducci reporting on the Yankees? Does he no longer have anybody on the inside since Joe T left? If this came from him, it would be more credible.”
Now with that I agree. I totally trust Verducci because over the years I have found that he is a pretty pure reporter (great objectivity) and that he doesn’t grind axes in his stories. My opinion.
Yes, Trisha, it’s slander to say they looked like they were in a hurry to get home. Oh my, it’s dangerous. If I go to court I’ll have you stand in and plead insanity for me.
Did anybody watch the games? They scored 3 or fewer runs in nearly 40 percent of their games. They routinely made three outs in 7 pitches or 8 pitches. Did you really get the impression all those times they were busting their butts?
I’m not suggesting they quit. But the Yankees were not the grind-it-out team they were for 12 years. What changed this season? Maybe it’s the manager, maybe it’s just circumstances.
But when a writer for SI and somebody who works for the team-owned network go on the biggest sports radio station in the country and suggest the players have a problem with the manager, that is not something you dismiss.
I’ve been telling you since May this team has had problems with Girardi. I’ve also said it’s up to him to figure it out. They’re not going to cut Jeter, Mo, Posada, A-Rod, etc.
I’m not saying they need to be best of friends. But the Yankees looked for much of the season like a team that didn’t much dive a damn and there is something wrong with that.
pat,
You’re right, I forgot about the clubbies.
But there was an anonymous player giving out quotes, no? Mo or someone said, “who’s that. they need to show their face” kind of thing? Maybe I’m wrong.
Oh yeah, CC is going to leave 125 million on the table cause Joe doesn’t allow candy in the clubhouse. Please spare me.
Girardi may be stubborn but he didn’t tick off all these people to make them all unanimously make up things. It’s not like these media guys got together in a room and decided to go on a crusade to make Joe look bad.
These is obvious truth to this. Nobody said he was the devil and ruined the franchise but he obviously rubbed the veterans the wrong way. And if these other things he is accused of like ignoring Pena/Long/Thompson and only communicating with his own coaches and not communicating with the players, those are huge red flags.
Pete, let me add this observation. I have said for quite a few years now that the Yankees have looked like they aren’t playing with a lot of fire. I also thought that it was possible that their inevitable trips to the postseason allowed them to do that in their own minds. So this really isn’t the first year that they’ve not looked lively.
They weren’t scoring a lot of runs but they were also without their run producers for different parts of the season. Were they pressing and therefore ineffective? Were they all trying to get the job done and therefore nobody got the job done? Did the offense start to press as soon as they saw that 2/5 of their starting rotation was totally ineffective from jump street and when another 1/5 – and a big 1/5 – went down for the season?
The way I look at it is that there are a lot of questions and not a lot of ready answers.
jennifer,
When he has that many choices to choose from, why would he leave sunny California and the laid back, fun loving Joe Torre and the loose Dodgers clubhouse (who could go to the WS this year BTW) to come East and play for Girardi and the corporate, 3rd place Yankees?
Unless the money disparity is that great, he won’t. But again, if we need to overpay by that much to get CC to come here, do we really want him?
Girardi is not the deciding factor but in a race this close, he could be a pretty large factor. And do you think a big man like him wants to go through boot camp spring training?
While I admit I wanted Girardi here and Torre out, I’m man enough to admit I was wrong and we made a mistake here. Torre had the respect for everyone on the team and had the rings for people to look at to know he knew what he was doing. Girardi was a manager of a 78-84 team coming in and was a backup player and people are supposed to think he’s the second coming?
Girardi gets next season but he needs to show significant improvement across the board- game management, media relations specifically injuries (and hopefully there will be a lot less), and accountability with every man on the roster. If he can’t do ALL of this, he’s gone, and bring in Mattingly or Bowa or Valentine.
If they stopped scoring runs because they were ‘dejected’ that Posada and Matsui were not in the lineup, then the problems go deeper than the manager.
We lost Sheffield and a much better version of Matsui in 2006 and won the division going away and won 97 games.
It was the combination of the manager not being able to get through to them, no leadership on the team, and being an aging offense that just can’t get it done day in and day out anymore. Thats why we need to re-shape the offense this winter.
mel
There was an anonymous player. Just don’t know this is one and the same issue.
A little info, Joe Torre was an under .500 manager prior to becoming the Yankee manager.
Don’t take September into account, when the pressure was off we played hard. Other than that, we were a .500 team when it mattered.
Part of that is Cashman for trying to ‘rebuild on the fly’ with a veteran roster. The other part is Girardi not being able to get these guys to respond to him when the chips were on the table.
Not to bring up the Torre v Girardi thing, but, I do find it interesting that Torre goes to a club that finished last season with a fractured club house and they win.
Heyman is not a beat writer. He rarely deals with Girardi.
This has nothing to do with whether writers get along with Girardi or not. We’re all adults, we work in a big market. You write what you find out. Our bosses don’t give a crap whether we like the manger or not.
You know what’s hilarious? Girardi is actually a much nicer guy in person than Torre. He stops to chat every time he passes you. He makes a concerted effort to find out things about your family. He’s a very nice man. I think he’s a good father based on what I have seen. He seems like a very good guy.
If you were in a car that broke down on the highway Girardi would stop and help you. Torre would probably zoom by on his way to the track. This idea that Torre was having dinner with us or whatever is ridiculous. I’ve been to spring training with the Yankees for 3 years. The only manager I’ve had dinner with is Girardi.
But when you ask him a question like “Joe, Jeter has 20 hits in his last 30 at-bats. What are you seeing in him?” and he answers “Oh, nothing. He has always been a good player” That’s pretty useless. I’m not asking for the manager to be Johnny Carson. Just to be honest and give his opinion.
I think that is what the players want, somebody real, not a bunch of cliches and happy talk. If Cano is a dog, call him on it. If somebody is hurt, say they’re hurt. You think the other team really doesn’t know? These guys all have the same agents and text each other constantly.
Read Mike Scioscia’s quotes this week. Or Lou Piniella. Their teams sucked and they came out and said it. Trust me, the players know when they suck.
“I believe in my guys” doesn’t work if the guys don’t believe what you’re saying.
With that, I’m out for the night. Thanks for reading and NO POLITICS!
Can we please give Girardi a 2nd chance and stop deeming his managing career over?
Yes, the stuff that has come out during this past month have been alarming and maybe the clubhouse is fractured beyond repair, but lets see how he responds to this.
It MUST start with Cashman getting him a better coaching staff.
Verducci was a Torre guy, he slammed the Yankees hard in SI when we fired him and ripped everyone from George to Levine to Hank to Cashman… just hammered them.
Thats why he was dismissed from Yankees Hot Stove.
I think Girardi not benching Cano/Betemit or calling them out put a bad taste in Rivera’s mouth. MO himself called them out. Torri Hunter called them out. Yet Girardi didn’t do anything.
And the next day, the whole Damon fiasco in Minnesota.
Around that time is probably when Joe really started to lose the team, thats when our tailspin started. We never recovered from that.
Manny wants 5 years?
You don’t think the veterans watched the Dodgers celebrate the trip to the NLCS with their young guys spraying Champagne on Torre and watching him take a dead franchise back to glory? And in the AL watching the upstart Rays emerge and watching the Sox continue to add to their winning legacy as the model franchise in the sport? All while we are sitting at home coming off a 3rd place finish with an incompetent manager?
Tom –
Yep. 5 years/ 85 million.
jennifer
October 7th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
A little info, Joe Torre was an under .500 manager prior to becoming the Yankee manager.
______________________________________________________
Yes, because he managed for nearly 5 years with one of the worst teams in history. It was a team that in three straight years traded the ace of their staff (Seaver, Koosman and Matack) for players like Doug Flynn, Kenny Henderson and Jesse Orosco. After that, he took over other last place teams that he won with.
G.I joe has built a huge hill for himelf to overcome next year
hopefully the yanks sakes he can do it
Well hell, if the players are upset because Girardi didn’t say they stunk when they had a bad game, maybe the players have bigger issues than we think! Actually Girardi was pretty protective of his players and constantly said things like “we’re a better team than the way we’ve been playing.” Truth in both statements. He acknowledged they were playing poorly and also asserted they were better than what they had been showing.
Girardi’s personality is what it is. Maybe the media needs to get used to his way. I think he really held his cool well under the circumstances.
Anyway, the “truth” of the matter actually has no meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t particularly care to know the inside story and I don’t jones to find out what juicy bit of gossip is going around. My fandom is on a lot more big-picture level. I have to trust that the Yankees will make improvements where necessary and come out next season ready to win it all.
That said, GO RAYS!
y’all being unpatriotic?
Yea, I talking to you too Pete.
The interview is fascinating- and why we may not want to believe it – Joe Girardi obviously had real issues with the veterans this year. Ultimately you don’t fire all the players – you fire the manager. So, if Girardi can’t gain their respect and get them to produce – he will go. Too bad, because he seems like a very smart guy and at least in theory brings a new approach to the table.
Pete, please DO NOT let the fans who can’t deal with truth deter you from writing about it. I just have to say that I appreciate that you never try to shade the truth. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that this team never gelled and that starts at the top. The MANAGER. No he doesn’t hit, pitch or bunt but it’s his job to get the most out of his team, Girardi did not.
Red Dragons, a lot of veterans say they don’t watch postseason baseball if they are not part of it, or once they are no longer in it. The veterans are also aware that they were still playing for a spot up til the last week of the season and that they played just about the entire season without their front-line pitcher and two of their top position players. And still managed to win 87 games. I think the veterans are probably ignoring the postseason and focusing on their personal lives right now.
Ed, do you think anybody would go 5 years or is it a ploy? 17 mill per for Manny seems low. Or is it the “new” economics of baseball?
Tom –
somebody will bite the bullet, like the Mets or the Braves.
Cashman needs to help Joe by doing a couple of things.
1. Give him a dominant team next year. Not this half-asses rebuilding BS. Get him 2 FA pitchers, a real 1B, and make the offense younger and more athletic. Make sure we have a dominant team next year. As it stands right now we are a 3rd place team.
Injuries are not an excuse, Cashman cannot look at it that way and be naive. Kazmir and Longoria missed a month, Crawford missed 6 weeks, Percivil was rarely healthy, Dice-K missed a month, Beckett was not healthy all year, Ortiz and Lowell missed a lot of time etc.
Do what you have to do this off-season to fix it and give him a dominant team. That way, it takes the pressure off Girardi and quiets the disgruntled players.
2. Give Joe a real coaching staff. Get him Baylor and Bowa. Get him experienced guys who are great in the clubhouse and bring unique qualities to the team. Let Pena have a larger role as well.
And still managed to win 87 games
by going 12-3 in garbage time to close the season.
bowa isnt coming back people get over it
trisha – That was a cosmetic run. We were done for 6 weeks. Those anonymous quotes that the team looked like quit came in Anaheim. They played well when the pressure was off. They did nothing in August.
We played ST linups most of the time and started Pavano, Ponson, Aceves, Hughes etc.
Just like we should never trust September numbers (Ian Kennedy says hello), September records are meaningless as well.
Ed, thanks. It just seems odd to me that Manny would only want 17 mil per year. He’s a Boras guy right? Boras usually begings his negotiations by asking for the moon and the stars. Is it the years that are more important?
Tom –
Yeah, he’s the “Son of Boras”. Like Manny said earlier this season, he wants to be like Julio Franco, playing at the age of 48.
Bowa loved NY. I heard him say he doesn’t care for the laid back style in LA. He loved the win now attitude by NY fans. He could be back.
rbi double for sublett… .353 avg
WAAA WAAA so the inmates and “core” players are upset…WAAAA
Good for Girardi!! that was the problem with Torre post 01…the players dictated the rules and attitudes
When Torre was winning, he dictated who played and what was what…then it became the players dictating to Torre what was what…anyone remember in 06 when Matsui and Sheff were hurt but came back for the playoffs and Joe went with the vets instead of the kids that helped us get in that year?
managers and players should be civil but not “best friends” like Torre was with these guys and allow them to run the show… Girardi is changing that and good for him!!!
When does Jeter become accountable for not winning the World Series over the past 8 years since he became a veteran leader?
DAN, BINGO
since hes become captain, whats he won???
oh nothing!!
Why do I get the feeling Richard Neer does his show from his bed…my god how boring does this guy sound, don’t drive and listen to him at the same time that’s an accident waiting to happen.
jennifer,
on Bowa, the Dodgers are actually winning now as currently constructed. The Yankees are out and is not guaranteed a win next year either unless multitudes of things are improved
So if I need to fall asleep I should put it on? I am falling asleep listening to this unmentionable thing on all the tv stations.
Brandon you’re close, not quite in the bed. But yes he’s at home the North Carolina. He’s NEVER in the studio.
Wow how’d he get the gig.
Steve Kline
October 7th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
And still managed to win 87 games
by going 12-3 in garbage time to close the season.
_______________________________________________________
BS. Look at the teams NYY was playing. Almost every team was trying to win a division or wild card. Those teams were hardly coasting or rolling over for the Yanks. Toronto had the incentive to finish ahead of NYY.
What helped was Long finally deciding to fix Cano’s stance…a stance that her admitted that he saw the flaws months earlier but was hesitant to fix because Cano was a .300 hitter. That shows the type of ability that Cano has, because from 1 May through the end of the season, Cano hit .297 with a flawed stance. This is the player 3/4th of this board wants to unload for something worse. Having Cano’s bat is part of what got the others hitting. Does one hitter make that much difference….yeah, when the bottom third of the order was hitting about .220?
***a stance that he***
Yankee Stadium November send Off has been axed?
http://www.amny.com/sports/bas.....7163.story
Hey guys. I am trying to stoke those hot-stove embers. Should the Yankees trade for Joey Votto? or just pick up a good FA and hold onto prospects.
i would love manny on are team hes better than half of the players in the bigs and he is clutch and thats wat we need
“Yankee Stadium November send Off has been axed?”
Ah, once again the Yankees acting with the interests of the fans in mind.
What a bunch of good fellows!
A Baseball related question:
Other than Wang and Nady, are any other players who are likely to be on the 2009 team arbitration eligible? Someone in the bullpen?
Wang got 4 million last year and Nady 3.35 million. Are those numbers likely to change much for 2009?
“y’all being unpatriotic?
Yea, I talking to you too Pete.”
Multi-tasking is unpatriotic? If more people multi-tasked the economy would ZOOM upward
They canceled the ceremony because they didn’t want to have to honor Torre.
and I’m perfectly fine with that.
I wonder if the economy plays into it. I was looking forward to that.
So I guess St. Joe was being rough with them when they couldnt hit in the last three Octobers. This is such nonsense. If the veterans need someone to get them loose then they shouldnt play in NY. Posada said on the Centerstage interview that he couldnt take being around the games because it killed him not to play. He couldnt even watch the games at home- win or lose. This agenda with Girardi is ridiculous. And the fact that you say there is no agenda is ridiculous. Heyman is known for having a bone to pick with specific players who give him a hard time, whether it be Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield or Roger Clemens. And on that point, the idea that you can sit around and praise Jason Giambi because he picked up a couple of checks is insane. Its the least can do, when he was caught cheating and it was that cheating that not only lead to his contract (that allowed him to pick up those bills) but caused him to miss the 2004 season where he could have helped win the ALCS.
No Joey Vatto. I don’t like the way Cone growls his name.
“They canceled the ceremony because they didn’t want to have to honor Torre.
and I’m perfectly fine with that.”
Torre thinks he is the toast of the town because he navigated an inferior team through a butter-soft NL West this year. Truth is he couldn’t take the pressure anymore and he preferred a fan-base that could care less about baseball.
Hey guys. I am trying to stoke those hot-stove embers. Should the Yankees trade for Joey Votto? or just pick up a good FA and hold onto prospects.
AL –
Hey….Votto is going to be really expensive for sure. I e-mailed Kat O’Brien last week, and she said Ryan Garko would be cheaper than other alternatives. So it got me thinking, how “cheap” is cheap?
You can say the same for Manny.
“No Joey Vatto. I don’t like the way Cone growls his name.”
Now that’s one of the most logical reasons I’ve ever read on here for not wanting a player!
Yankee Stadium November send Off has been axed?
Bummer
Garko maybe Cox and Ian Kennedy
Laporta = Cox/Hughes
Votto = Robertson/Hughes
“Hey guys. I am trying to stoke those hot-stove embers. Should the Yankees trade for Joey Votto? or just pick up a good FA and hold onto prospects.
AL -
Hey….Votto is going to be really expensive for sure. I e-mailed Kat O’Brien last week, and she said Ryan Garko would be cheaper than other alternatives. So it got me thinking, how “cheap†is cheap?”
I know what you’re saying man. I’m a big Garko fan, however Votto’s youth and talent got me thinking. Garko is the more likey alternative. Tex’s glove play in the ALDS really wowed me, however we all know what he will cost.
Pat –
As of now, the rumored non-tender candiates will be Darell Rasner and Wilson Betemit.
Brandon -
wasn’t Cox were all hyped to take over the closer’s role in the future?
“Garko maybe Cox and Ian Kennedy
Laporta = Cox/Hughes
Votto = Robertson/Hughes”
Hmmm, I dunno. Votto has looked tremendous as a LH 1B bringing him into Yankee stadium seems almost perfect, however I am still wary of seeing Hughes turn into a solid starter. I am kind of on the fence about that trade. Getting Garko for IPK seems like a glove-like fit however he isn’t nearly as young or talented as Votto.
I’d trade Hughes in a heartbeat if we can get back a stud like LaPorta, Bruce, or Votto.
If we could get Garko for Kennedy and a reliever, I’d do that too.
“Brandon -
wasn’t Cox were all hyped to take over the closer’s role in the future?”
I’m sure that was all typical Yankees over-hyping. Cox will be a good middle reliever, never a closer.
“It’s also worth noting that Jorge Posada became a ghost when he went on the DL…How do you think Posada felt that the public was being told his shoulder was “improving every day†when in fact he could barely swing the bat and needed extensive surgery.”
its so funny that you bring this up PETE. cause if you use your selective memory correctly for a second you will also remember when Girardi tried to shield posada from being exposed behind the plate posada complained like a child to the media. hes supposed to be a clubhouse leader and an emotional leader but all he showed me this year was that he is a selfish crybaby who is undeserving of the uniform and the contract…but i guess thats the managers fault
What about Hughes for Greinke and DeJesus?
AL -
4 words: Jason Giambi-like contract.
Thanks Ed.
I’d wonder if we could land Loney for Hughes.
What about Hughes for Greinke and DeJesus?
Failed. Hughes will be better than Grienke. Grienke gives up way too many homers, and he would surely get killed in the AL east.
Cox is a Joe Smith/Bradford type of reliever, not a closer by any stretch.
He was hyped when we had no farm system. Hughes was Clemens, Tabata was Manny, Eric Duncan was Chipper Jones, and Cox was the heir apparent to Rivera.
What about Hughes for Greinke and DeJesus?
Austin Jackson is our CF and he will likely be better than Dejesus in the long run, Greinke I think hits FA after this yr. so it wouldn’t make sense unless it’s for IPK.
Brandon -
the question should be, would Torre give up Loney for one of his former Yankees? Ned Colleti would definitely say yes though.
Well, you knew it was coming.
Better Later than Sooner, welcome, “THIS IS WHY JOE TORRE TOOK THE DODGERS TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!??? WATCH ME POUT. I AM POUTING” groupies.
i’d trade hughes for alex gordon and then move him to 1st base or right field
t-rock no one ever said Cox would be the next closer, no one, not even when he was drafted, the word on that next guy is Sanchez/Brackman or Melancon and Melancon has really been the one getting groomed for it.
Neither Garko nor Votto are especially adept at fielding. Garko doesn’t make a lot of errors, but, he doesn’t have much range, either. He’s a Steve Garvey clone in the field.
I’d do Hughes for Loney in a nanosecond.
I doubt they trade him though— if you read these articles during the playoffs, Loney seems like the only level headed guy of the young players while the rest of them are immature punks.
You could probably get Kemp or Ethier for Hughes, and I would do that too.
the question should be, would Torre give up Loney for one of his former Yankees? Ned Colleti would definitely say yes though.
The Dodgers are losing Kim Ng after this season, the time to strike and go for a theft is now in this offseason. If Colleti takes Hughes for Loney they should make that deal and get in the van.
why not trade nady for kotchman and then sign manny or milton bradley for right field?
Eric Duncan was Chipper Jones
Cashman should had traded him for Mark Kotsay a few years ago, and it would had saved the headache. He will likely to be claimed during this year’s rule 5 since he wasn’t last year.
You could probably get Kemp or Ethier for Hughes, and I would do that too
Kemp can’t field, Either is limited at times is hurt. Loney in a heartbeat I’d try to get Dewitt in that deal too.
If we can nab CC as well as Sabathia then Cash would probably be more open to moving Hughes. Signing 2 of the big FA pitcher allows us to trade pitching for position help.
The Dodgers are losing Kim Ng after this season, the time to strike and go for a theft is now in this offseason. If Colleti takes Hughes for Loney they should make that deal and get in the van.
or probably Loney for Rasner & Betemit. now that’s call ripping off. lol
Couldn’t Duncan have gotten us Dontrelle Willis a few years back?
why not trade nady for kotchman and then sign manny or milton bradley for right field?
Because Atlanta isn’t going to do that. Manny doesn’t want to play in NY, and Bradley I love but comes w/ risks. Although I’d love his fire on this team.
GB 7 -
Kelly Shoppach has emerged as the everyday catcher. V-Mart is most likely switch to 1B, which leave Garko no where to play.
Hughes for James Loney would be a STEAL.
Cash, wait until LAD is eliminated and start working the phones!
I’d rather have Kemp/Ethier than Loney.
Couldn’t Duncan have gotten us Dontrelle Willis a few years back?
the Tigers would swap Willis for a SS. I think Dave Eiland might be able to fix him.
Bradley is the type of guy we need. He is a firey leader who plays hard, good defender, hits for power/average, and is a gamer.
He could be the guy who can command the clubhouse.
Girardi may have acted like a jerk, but that’s not the reason they didn’t make the playoffs. The reasons are Jeter had a terrible year both at the plate and in the field, Cano is a loser who has to go no matter what, Melky starting in center exposed his lack of talent, Gardner simply can’t hit, Damon has no arm and is a terrible outfielder, A-Rod was more concerned with his affairs and divorce than actually getting a hir when it counted, Giambi played at first like a fat, slow Venus DeMilo, Damon is an awful leftfielder, Abreu has a beeper which warns him when he is within 20 feet of the warning track, Giambi had a terrible OBP by his past standards and he clogged the basis, the bench was as awful as can be, Pettitte is done, Mussina is a crybaby, Posada has a big mouth and thinks he runs the team, Molina can’t hit, they have no legitimate DH, Cashman put his ego ahead of the team by handing jobs to unproven pitchers instead of trading for Santana, Girardi had to parade out Ponson, Rasner, Giese and the rest of the stiffs every 5 days, and they let good coaches leave, like Bowa, and kept a bum like Meachum who almost got several runners killed at the plate. Candy and ice cream and military speeches? What a joke. Torre only won because of one thing: the Manny Ramirez trade. He had 2 losing streaks of at least 7-8 games before Manny. So put the blame where it belongs; on Cashman and the bunch of misfits that he gathered.
I’d shop Hughes for a number of young position players, Loney, Votto, Bruce would be at the top of the list.
Do we have any SS we can give DET? I would LOVE to get Willis this offseason.
corrections: “hit” and “bases”.
Do we have any SS we can give DET? I would LOVE to get Willis this offseason.
swap Betemit for Willis. (scarasm)
Cincinatti is a good fit for us as a trade partner, they need pitching and they have a ton of hitting. We should see if Hughes can net us Votto or Bruce. We can also give them relievers like Cox, Veras, Edwar etc.
i’d grab willis and turn him into a closer
he could set up for MO and then eventually replace him, he has that kind of stuff
Hughes and Kennedy for Cameron Maybin?
Or maybe even expand the deal and get back Maybin AND one of their arb. eligible players.
i wonder what will it take to get to aquire victor martinez hes no a bad in 62 games at first he has 2errors
i’d grab willis and turn him into a closer
I’d grab him and pawn Igawa for him, The Tigers and D-Train aren’t a match, Sunglasses isn’t here, Harky was the best BP coach for D-Train and maybe he resurrects his career, how about Reegie Corona/Sunglasses for Willis ?
Tank
Cincinatti is a good fit for us as a trade partner, they need pitching and they have a ton of hitting. We should see if Hughes can net us Votto or Bruce. We can also give them relievers like Cox, Veras, Edwar etc.
i wanna see cox first but ill give kennedy veras edwar
Hughes and Kennedy for Cameron Maybin?
Hughes alone gets him, Melancon alone gets him. I love Maybin but he’s still new to the ML.
how about Reegie Corona/Sunglasses for Willis ?
not bad, since Corona will be rule 5 eligible anyway. might as well get something good out of him.
See what OAK wants for Carlos Gonzalez. I would give up Hughes if need be. That kid is a 5-tool stud. Maybe Hughes, Kennedy, Sanchez, and Miranda for Gonzalez and Henry Rodriguez?
Obviously the only way the Hughes trade works out is if the Yankees trade Hughes for a stud position guy and said stud position guy turns into a .300/25/100 perennial guy.
Quilvio Imposter
October 7th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Bradley is the type of guy we need. He is a firey leader who plays hard, good defender, hits for power/average, and is a gamer.
He could be the guy who can command the clubhouse.
______________________________________________________
a good defender? He played less than 20 games in the field because he can’t stay healthy. He’s played in about 160 games in the outfield in the last 4 years and none of them very well. He’s a lot of things, but a leader isn’t one of them. He’s fiery as long as it’s someone who can’t defend himself. He’s exactly what the Yankees DON’T NEED.
mark007
October 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
“i’d grab willis and turn him into a closer
he could set up for MO and then eventually replace him, he has that kind of stuff”
Mark, I think the question many people are asking is whether willis still has that kind of stuff?
I didn’t follow Detroit very carefully but didn’t they send him all the way down to single A?
He didn’t seem effective at all this last year.
Do you think this was just a one year blip?
Huge mistake not giving the job to a real Yankee. Donnie Baseball.
“See what OAK wants for Carlos Gonzalez. I would give up Hughes if need be. That kid is a 5-tool stud. Maybe Hughes, Kennedy, Sanchez, and Miranda for Gonzalez and Henry Rodriguez?”
Why do that when you can get a proven guy IE Votto/Loney/Kemp/Ethier? Thats giving up an awful lot for a guy with only 300 ML at bats.
Brandon (or someone) -
refresh my memory, wasn’t the Yanks supposely be interested in Willis last season but the price was really too high?
Maybin killed the Mets during the final weekend.
I am intrigued. I’d give up Hughes for him, the guy is raw but an athletic OFer who can hit, steal, GG defense, great arm.
I doubt FLA would move him even if we gave up Hughes which I would.
Here’s my idea: keep Hughes.
Pete:
I’ve long been critical of your stance towards Girardi. However the more I hear, the more I begin to think there’s something to it. This was a new manager who should be trying to earn the respect of future-hall-of-famers under him and he squandered every opportunity. He insinuated they were lazy in spring training, ignored clubhouse favorite Tony Pena’s advice instead of newcomer Bobby Meacham (I’m sure the players were thrilled about how many runs scored and RBI’s he cost them with his startling ineptitude).
What was up with the ice cream machine? The players vocally HATED this policy, and what did it accomplish? I guarantee you the 2007 Red Sox and Rockies had sweets in their clubhouse. Same with the 2006 Tigers and Cardinals, the 2005 White Sox and Astros, etc. Yes it isn’t a huge deal but it’s just an example of causing friction where there didn’t need to be any.
ray (sox fan) :
Why would you be here posting?
Seriously. Get a life
“Huge mistake not giving the job to a real Yankee. Donnie Baseball.”
I agree.
just trade hughes for loney or votto/bruce. pretty simple. no need to get complicated and expand the deals.
They didn’t trade Hughes for a stud like Santana.
And now they are going to give him up for minor league Of’s and minor league pitchers.
The morons have the run of this place.
Donnie Baseball would have been a disaster. Another inexperienced manager with no credentials.
If anyone deserved the job, it was Pena or Bowa. Two fiery veterans who the players have immense respect for and are proven guys at handling the clubhouse. They would have been Jerry Manual type managers. We didn’t need a flashy name.
Andy
October 7th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
ray (sox fan) :
“Why would you be here posting?
Seriously. Get a life”
I don’t come on here with the typical troll comments. I like talking about baseball. If you have a problem with that “Andy” than don’t read my posts.
Andy-
ray is here to talk baseball just like you & me. Skip his posts if you can’t handle it.
I would trade Hughes for Hanley Ramirez. Move him from SS and put him in the outfield. But Florida probably won’t do it. Or maybe they will.
Only trade Hughes if you can get back a stud like Votto, Bruce, LaPorta, Maybin, Loney etc.
He isin’t untouchable though like Joba is. If we get a good young position star, take it.
refresh my memory, wasn’t the Yanks supposely be interested in Willis last season but the price was really too high?
Yup it was Hughes/Jackson, Florida settled into a bigger steal from Detroit, I mean tapped them out, Maybin/Miller/someone else I can’t remember but it was thier #1 2 4 5 and 7th best prospects plus cash. How’s that deal looking for Detroit right about now ?
Hughes for Prince Fielder. He is CC’s best friend and would convince CC to come here. He could also add a 50 HR bat to 1st base.
“They didn’t trade Hughes for a stud like Santana.
And now they are going to give him up for minor league Of’s and minor league pitchers.
The morons have the run of this place.”
Bruce,Votto/Ethier,Kemp are certainly not minor leaguers and we won’t have to pay any of them 140 million dollars either. Why not trade Hughes now and get a stud position player?
Well DET still has Cabrera who led the AL in HRs. He is only 24 and going to be a middle order stud for a long time.
Seattle, now that is the definition of screwed with the Bedard trade
Yup it was Hughes/Jackson, Florida settled into a bigger steal from Detroit, I mean tapped them out, Maybin/Miller/someone else I can’t remember but it was thier #1 2 4 5 and 7th best prospects plus cash. How’s that deal looking for Detroit right about now ?
Cabrera did good despite his slow start earlier in the season. if the Tigers are seriously willing to swap Willis for a SS, Cashman should seriously call the GM. Corona for Willis would be a steal.
ray (sox fan)
October 7th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
mark007
October 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
“i’d grab willis and turn him into a closer
he could set up for MO and then eventually replace him, he has that kind of stuffâ€
Mark, I think the question many people are asking is whether willis still has that kind of stuff?
I didn’t follow Detroit very carefully but didn’t they send him all the way down to single A?
He didn’t seem effective at all this last year.
Do you think this was just a one year blip?
______________________________________________________
evening, Ray. You’re right, Willis was sent to the FSL for two reasons. He was hurt and he’s been ineffective for 2 or 2 and a half years. With that cross body delivery and whip action on his arm and shoulder he has, he was never going to last long. His elbow and shoulder must look like mincemeat. 38 strikeouts in 56 innings with a 4.50 ERA is all I need to see.
“Hughes for Prince Fielder. He is CC’s best friend and would convince CC to come here. He could also add a 50 HR bat to 1st base.”
Brewers would want a lot more than Hughes for Fielder. The guy puts butts in the seats.
If Santana didn’t require a $140 million dollar deal and was a year younger, then we would have traded Hughes for him.
Just like if Peavy is available, Cashman wouldn’t hesitate to trade Hughes for him because he is dirt cheap for the next few years and only 26.
Cashman should seriously call the GM. Corona for Willis would be a steal.
I’d beat him w/ the reciever if he didn’t do that. Mike Harkey is a guy that knows Dontrelle, every single movement and how symbolic would that be I mean D-Train in the Bronx. D-Train to Yankee Stadium.
Hughes for Prince Fielder. He is CC’s best friend and would convince CC to come here. He could also add a 50 HR bat to 1st base.â€
Fielder = DH in the AL.
Hughes for Prince Fielder. He is CC’s best friend and would convince CC to come here. He could also add a 50 HR bat to 1st base.
Prince Fielder ? ummm …No.
Bottom line, get CC first. He is a must sign and should be the first priority. Then after we lock him up then decide what to do with Hughes and the other FAs.
Right now, Cashman and co. should be in Tampa planning how they are going to court CC and recruit him here. He is first priority. He will set the tone for the off-season. He said he wanted to sign quickly and not drag it out anyway, so we must jump on him as soon as the WS is over.
I’d beat him w/ the reciever if he didn’t do that. Mike Harkey is a guy that knows Dontrelle, every single movement and how symbolic would that be I mean D-Train in the Bronx. D-Train to Yankee Stadium.
true. Corona will be rule 5 eligible. might as well get something good from him instead of losing him in a draft.
Prince would hate it here with the dictator Girardi taking away his ice cream
“Brewers would want a lot more than Hughes for Fielder. The guy puts butts in the seats.”
He could fill a few seats with his own butt.
Oh poor Teixeira and CC, with the economy being the worst since 1929, those two might to have get paper routes to survive the day.
At least they will have paper routes, unlike the rest of us, who be living on the streets.
“If Santana didn’t require a $140 million dollar deal and was a year younger, then we would have traded Hughes for him.
Just like if Peavy is available, Cashman wouldn’t hesitate to trade Hughes for him because he is dirt cheap for the next few years and only 26.”
The Pads have Peavy on the hook til 2011 I believe and they would want a lot more than Hughes also Peavy has full no trade.
Exactly what part of a high salaried,sore armed, diminished talent like Willis would be a good deal?
Is Nelfi Felix (Texas prospect) available?
““Brewers would want a lot more than Hughes for Fielder. The guy puts butts in the seats.â€
He could fill a few seats with his own butt.”
Kim Jones said something today about AL players not really believing in NL pitchers. They think the Al East is a different animal that NL pitchers don’t understand. Wonder if Peavy would be included in that?
“Exactly what part of a high salaried,sore armed, diminished talent like Willis would be a good deal?”
If you could get him for nothing why not?
GB 7 -
the Tigers are willing to swap him for a SS since they declined Renteria’s contract. the only available SS beside Betemit, would be Reggie Corona. Instead of losing in a draft, might as well trade him. Now if the Tigers want Betemit, by all means, that would defintely be a good deal.
willis would be a classic low risk, high reward.
harky, nardi, eliand will fix him. he could be a very good #2-3 starter in the AL like hughes.
imagine joba, wang, willis, hughes, pettitte?
Is Nelfi Felix (Texas prospect) available?
No chance for Neftali Feliz unless it’s Hughes or an A prospect.
pat,
Damon said the same thing in a recent article that the AL East is different than the NL and we should only target guys from the AL.
I want Saltalamacchia and Willis this off-season.
Time for Cashman to be creative and get us some low risk, high reward guys.
harky, nardi, eliand will fix him. he could be a very good #2-3 starter in the AL like hughes.
Harky made Willis into a CY Young runner up in 2005. Harky knows Willis inside out. Willis could definitely be fixed.
I would do Hughes for Feliz.
Feliz is a Joba type prospect
Doubt TEX would though.
Would Detroit give up on Willis so quickly though? They gave him a 5 yr deal too didn’t they?
vtred
Maybe Damon is who said it to Kim Jones. Wonder if it’s a generally held belief with AL East teams?
“Just ask yourself this: Do you really think all those times they scored two or three runs were some coincidence?”
I agree that Girardi definitely has to get better. But for you to sit there and lay the blame for the performance of the offense at his feet is utter BS.
Of course it wasn’t a coincidence that they scored only 2 or 3 runs in a game many times this season. This is because most of the games they had 3 or 4 of these automatic outs in the lineup daily – Melky, Molina, Cano, Pudge, Gardner, Betemit, Ensberg, Duncan, Sexson, Gonzalez, Moeller, etc. Now obviously Cano’s performance was surprising, but you can’t be surprised by anybody else on that list playing like crap. And if you blame all of Cano’s struggles on Girardi, well then that doesn’t speak very well for Cano’s ability to hit a baseball if it solely depends on who the manager is. The most pressing question is: why did these guys who mostly were known to suck get so much playing time? They collecively got over 2000 plate appearances. That is insane to give so much playing time to guys who were clearly not getting the job done. Almost 40% of the team’s plate appearances went to guys who were known to suck (with the exception of Cano, who we figured would be very good). And almost 40% of the team’s plate appearances with RISP went to these same guys, with completely disastrous results (approx. .210 batting average, .262 OBP, .292 SLG). The reason they got so much playing time was initially because of injuries to guys like Posada, ARod, Matsui, and Damon. But the fact that the Yankees stuck with some of these players for way too long doesn’t speak too well for the depth of the Yankee minor league system when it comes to position players. That’s the real problem here. The Yankees aren’t prepared to handle injuries to their star players. Obviously the replacements won’t put up the same performance as the guys they are replacing, but they need to do a lot better than the crap performance the Yankees got out of the replacement guys they tried this year.
The Yankees scoring 2 or 3 runs a game so frequently had ltitle if anything to do with Girardi not getting along with some players. That’s a bunch of garbage.
ask yourselves this: Did the yankees lose because Girardi didnt manage the team properly or did the yankees lose because we relied on hughes and kennedy to anchor a rotations with two other pitchers in their late 30s. Granted, wang went down and that certainly hurt our chances significantly but dont important players get hurt every season: relying on Moose, pettitte and wang to stay healthy was also a mistake. Moose getting 20 wins was a gift – imagine what the team would have finished like if he pitched like last season. To me, we lost the season for the same reason I thought the team looked weak in the beginning – we had no starting pitching depth and relied on ppl we shouldnt have. Cash could have gotten the big fish but decided to sit back and rely on the youngsters – and rasner and ponson filling in when they couldnt produce was the end for us. Cano not producing and posada getting hurt were flukes but not shocking. I dont think girardis clubhouse management was the reason we were embarassed this season.
Al from BK( Make CC a Yankee, Tex is a great 1B.)
October 7th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
“Exactly what part of a high salaried,sore armed, diminished talent like Willis would be a good deal?â€
If you could get him for nothing why not?
________________________________________________________
Exactly who do you think is going to pay that hefty 8 million dollar salary? Detroit? Not likely. I wouldn’t swap Ponson for Willis.
“harky, nardi, eliand will fix him. he could be a very good #2-3 starter in the AL like hughes.
Harky made Willis into a CY Young runner up in 2005. Harky knows Willis inside out. Willis could definitely be fixed.”
Willis’ problems were not only mechanical but also health related. I don’t think Willis will ever again be his 2005 self.
We didn’t make the playoffs because Hughes and Kennedy didn’t win a game. Replace them with Paul Byrd and we are playing in October.
Sign CC and Burnett, Trade Hughes for Bruce or Votto/Loney, and bring back Bowa.
3 tips to a successful offseason
Al –
He just needs to change his pitching motion instead of the “El Duque” move. If he could, then he might be able to regain his 2005 self.
….someone needs to learn how to use the “enter” key.
“Exactly who do you think is going to pay that hefty 8 million dollar salary? Detroit? Not likely. I wouldn’t swap Ponson for Willis.”
Yeah, stay away from Willis. Ponson is godawful, yet this statement is so true.
“Or that Mariano Rivera was furious for much of the season about the lack of accountability some players got away with.â€
Which players?
200 million shouldnt be able to buy a world series but if cash did his job right 200 million in payroll should at least give us a spot in the playoffs. The fact that this team couldnt even come close and finished six games out speaks more loudly about the way this team is put together and the efficient use of resources moreso than the manager. Im sure girardi didnt help the situation but lets not put the blame on his shoulders. When I looked at the starting rotation at the beginning of the yr i couldnt believe this team still had the highest payroll in baseball by ovoer 60 million – that was before girardi ever even stepped foot on the field. Once again, the manager gets too much blame and the GM doesnt get enough – i am starting to feel like cash is invincible in NY.
The Yankees aren’t going to get Votto or Brunce from Cincinnati, unless they give up Hughes, Jackson, De La Rosa, Cano, Melancon and Bruney. That’s a fairly hefty package of talent for one player, isn’t it?
“Sign CC and Burnett, Trade Hughes for Bruce or Votto/Loney, and bring back Bowa.
3 tips to a successful offseason”
I couldn’t agree more, especially about Bowa Meachem needs to go.
“Al -
He just needs to change his pitching motion instead of the “El Duque†move. If he could, then he might be able to regain his 2005 self.”
I would certainly hope so he is such a nice guy, and I hope he gets better for his own good. I tend to believe that the AL also took its toll on him.
It was suggested on a baseball log almost a month ago that maybe Boston would ship Lugo to Detroit for Willis.
I don’t see that happening, but has been talked about in some circles.
***Votto or Bruce from Cincinnati***
Alberto Gonzalez for Willis
Rich Harden will have a shoulder exam soon, which will inform the Cubs’ decision on his $7MM option.
Do I dare to ask?
It’s funny how this so call Yankees fan doesn’t know Alberto had been traded.
ray (sox fan)
October 7th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
It was suggested on a baseball log almost a month ago that maybe Boston would ship Lugo to Detroit for Willis.
I don’t see that happening, but has been talked about in some circles.
_______________________________________________________
That would go down as the ugliest, no-win trade in history.
If Harden gets his option declined, I do it in a heartbeat.
And if he can’t stay healthy as a starter, make him the heir apparent to Rivera
GB7
I think I might just have to agree with you on that one!
GB 7 –
If you don’t mind me asking, you sound a little piss off today?
“The Yankees aren’t going to get Votto or Brunce from Cincinnati, unless they give up Hughes, Jackson, De La Rosa, Cano, Melancon and Bruney. That’s a fairly hefty package of talent for one player, isn’t it?”
Thats exaggerating a bit. Cincy is overloaded with stud position guys. They would love to add Hughes to a young rotation already including Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, and Owings.
Willis is owed 22 million dollars in the next two years. That’s hardly cost effective.
2 yrs. 11 mill per in exchange get rid of Sunglasses/Corona..I’d do it
Ed – looking forward to 2009
October 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
GB 7 –
If you don’t mind me asking, you sound a little piss off today?
______________________________________________________
Not at all, Ed. I just think any ideas of going for Willis is insane, useless and laughable. Same thing with the idea that Cincinnati has any reason or need to trade Bruce or Votto, certainly not straight up for a minor league relief pitcher and a starter that has nothing but 5 wins under his belt. Hughes will, in all likelyhood, will be a big winner, just not right away.
Al from BK( Make CC a Yankee, Tex is a great 1B.)
October 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
“The Yankees aren’t going to get Votto or Brunce from Cincinnati, unless they give up Hughes, Jackson, De La Rosa, Cano, Melancon and Bruney. That’s a fairly hefty package of talent for one player, isn’t it?â€
Thats exaggerating a bit. Cincy is overloaded with stud position guys. They would love to add Hughes to a young rotation already including Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, and Owings.
___________________________________________________
If the Reds were loaded with stud position players, Keppinger, Bako, Patterson, Hairston and Ross wouldn’t have gotten so much playing time.
“How do you think Posada felt that the public was being told his shoulder was “improving every day†when in fact he could barely swing the bat and needed extensive surgery.”
In this case Posada has as much credibility (or lack of) as you have in criticising Girardi. We are talking about the guy who complained to media how he is OK and Girarid was not playing him.
You have proven again at every given opportunity you do not mind hitting below the belt when it comes to Girardi by twisting facts.
You are not going to delete this post, are you?
“I just think any ideas of going for Willis is insane, useless and laughable. Same thing with the idea that Cincinnati has any reason or need to trade Bruce or Votto, certainly not straight up for a minor league relief pitcher and a starter that has nothing but 5 wins under his belt. Hughes will, in all likelyhood, will be a big winner, just not right away.”
Regardless of how disappointed us fans are in Hughes, baseball people likely still see him as a high end prospect. Cincinnati would likely want to trade from an area of excess to fill a need. They have Bruce, Votto, Phillips and Encarnacion all young talented offensive players, they would likely want to unload one of these bats for a high end pitcher. Hughes like it or not still carries alot of weight as a trading chip.
Shore up the bench! no more sexons, ensbergs, christians, mollers, betemit, josh phelps etc.
fins some real talent like jeff keppinger
GB 7 -
oh okay, gotcha…
Does IPK have any trade value? Could we get somebody like Kemp for him?
new thread.
Just say no to harden – that is asking for trouble. That would be worse than sheets atleast sheets has pitched more than 200 innings in a season. Harden hasnt even come that close.
Al from BK( Make CC a Yankee, Tex is a great 1B.)
October 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
“I just think any ideas of going for Willis is insane, useless and laughable. Same thing with the idea that Cincinnati has any reason or need to trade Bruce or Votto, certainly not straight up for a minor league relief pitcher and a starter that has nothing but 5 wins under his belt. Hughes will, in all likelyhood, will be a big winner, just not right away.â€
Regardless of how disappointed us fans are in Hughes, baseball people likely still see him as a high end prospect. Cincinnati would likely want to trade from an area of excess to fill a need. They have Bruce, Votto, Phillips and Encarnacion all young talented offensive players, they would likely want to unload one of these bats for a high end pitcher. Hughes like it or not still carries alot of weight as a trading chip.
______________________________________________________
Cincinnati does not have an excess strength in offense. Whatever excess they may have had went with Hamilton and Dunn. AAA Louisville is barren. It’s filled with 27-31 year old career minor leaguers.
Al from BK( Make CC a Yankee, Tex is a great 1B.)
October 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Regardless of how disappointed us fans are in Hughes, baseball people likely still see him as a high end prospect. Cincinnati would likely want to trade from an area of excess to fill a need. They have Bruce, Votto, Phillips and Encarnacion all young talented offensive players, they would likely want to unload one of these bats for a high end pitcher. Hughes like it or not still carries alot of weight as a trading chip.
___________________________________________________
If you had read it in the post, I said nothing about being disappointed in Hughes. Trading Hughes is ridiculous. He’s barely 22 years old and has a world of talent.
James 3D
October 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Does IPK have any trade value? Could we get somebody like Kemp for him?
____________________________________________________
Sure. Right now, Kennedy could bring in Shawn or Steve Kemp.
Kennedy is going to be ok. He just isn’t ready. Getting ready is up to him.
it’s not “killing the messenger” to say you don’t take the messenger seriously in terms of this obsessive animus the reporters have towards Girardi.
some players don’t like Girardi – BFD. Casey Stengel once said something along the lines of “the secret to managing is to keep the 5 guys on the team who hate you from the 20 who are not sure about you.” It’s the SOS.
if Wang doesn’t trip over a base, then Heyman’s not gossiping on the air about this lame ‘clubhouse unhappiness’ today. so what do his comments really mean?
The idea that Girardi has a problem with his players sounds more like speculation than anything else. Damon is the only player to publicly complain about anything Girardi did as a manager and he complained about Torre as well.
The core of this team (Mariano, Jeter, and Posada) had 1 manager for their entire career and they have publicly said how much they enjoyed playing for him. Would they rather be playing for Torre than Girardi? Probably. Would they hold that against him rather than the Yankee front office? I don’t think so.
There were no reports of Marlins players having a problem with Girardi and there aren’t any quotes from Yankee players on the issue. At this point, I think that Jeter, Mariano, and Posada are getting used to playing for someone other than Joe Torre and would have to do the same for any person that came in to replace Torre.
It’s October and there’s no baseball being played in NY. If the Yankees are in the playoffs, this isn’t being discussed. Unfortunately, the Yankees didn’t make it so Girardi will have to deal with what that brings.
So Heyman and Pete think the players are down on Girardi, but no mention of what they think of Cashman.
If polled how many veteran players do you think agreed with the Boy Genius’ decision to stiff-arm Santana and bet the season on two rookies? How many liked that our big off-season acquisitions were Latroy friggin’ Hawkins and Morgan Ensberg? How many thought making Cano a $30 million dollar man years before we needed to was a good idea? How many thought dumping a king’s ransom on a Japanese rag arm was wiser than grabbing a proven major leaguer like Ted Lilly? How many liked the way Bernie got jerked around after his last season, and was then smart-mouthed by Cash? How many are happy with CJ Henry, Ian Kennedy, Sore-Arm Brackman and Gerrit Cole as first-round picks? How many, if given a choice, would take Cash over Theo Epstein? Or Kenny Williams? Or Omar Minaya?
Of course we’ll never hear those questions asked by Heyman. Or here. As we’ve been told, Cashman does no wrong.
Thank God he’s back.
thank god randyhater – nice post. I thought i was the only one that realized that cash is far more to blame here than girardi. its true – some are soo blinded by his charm (I guess) that they dont realize how many mistakes the guy has made. Lilly over Igawa was the smart move but cash decided we needed to save a few bucks. Hawkins as our big free agent signing when players such as Santana, Haren and eventually sabathia changing hands is not so great with a team who has a ton of prospects and alot to spend. Not to mention, his overwhelming confidence in kennedy and igawa and his patching job with rasner and ponson. BTW when exactly was the last time cash made a solid pitching acquisition outside of the draft? And Im sure he scouted and acquired hughes and austin jackson by himself right? The last time we made a decent pitching acquisition was Moose including most of the pen. Posada is now being payed for his past work and pavano was payed for no work at all – brilliant moves. Just thought Id add to a list of Cashman blunders that grows each year.
“200 million shouldnt be able to buy a world series but if cash did his job right 200 million in payroll should at least give us a spot in the playoffs.”
====
There is a flaw in this argument that always seems to be overlooked – it’s not like Cashman starts at $0 every year and builds up to $200 million. If he was able to scrap all contracts and start over with a budget of $200M, it would be very hard to beat the Yankees. Thankfully, sports don’t run like that.
Transitioning from Torre’s experienced professionalism was going to be tough on anyone. Can Girardi lead? He took an annonymous group of Marlin kids into contention and won NL Mgr of the year. He was a highly respected clubhouse guy in his playing days. He has flaws and figures to improve. It’s interesting though that the long-term flaw master–Cashman, who built this 3rd place team is coated in teflon. I’m sure that Brian is more popular with the players since he has overpaid most of them.Don’t think it’s about popularity,3rd place will get old and 4th place next year isn’t out of the question. By then Cashman will have another “hand picked Manager” and will escape blame again.
Sorry Peter but this is a lame excuse ! . These pre-madonas are getting paid MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars . .That should be enough motivation to win ! . At this level i don’t think you need a manager to hold your hand and pump you up before every at bat ! .
John Heyman and everyone should realize that the reason why we haven’t won is because of our PITCHING !!!!!!! not Girardi. Girardi may have cost us 20 games . . But our pitching alone and inconsistent hitting cost us about 60 games !
Know what would be fun? If Girardi got fired and Jeter became player-manager like Pete Rose in 1987
This is interesting speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
Throughout the year we’ve seen lots of innuendo about Girardi not getting along with his player. What’s been missing all along is any evidence. No quotes from players or observers, even anonymous quotes. Just guesses.
The burning question is whether any problems the players have with Girardi, if they exist, translated into poor performance on the field. If so, it’s very hard to tell.
The Yankee lineup produced well, with the exception of CF, 2B, and C. We got nothing from catcher because Posada was injured, Molina and Moeller just aren’t good hitters, and Pudge didn’t do much for us either. As we all know, Melky and Cano killed us. Whether that had anything to do with Girardi failing to light a fire under them is, to me, the biggest Girardi issue of all. Again, we haven’t seen any evidence that this was the case. But if it was, how hard could it be just to kick their ass and make them play harder, like they did just last year?
As we also know, Mussina pitched a great season, Wang and Joba went down with injuries, Hughes and Kennedy disappointed, Pettitte faded in the second half, and Rasner and Ponson pitched like the replacement players they are. Does Girardi deserve credit or blame for any of this? Almost certainly not.
The bullpen was terrific. Girardi showed a real talent for managing his relievers, one of Torre’s most glaring weaknesses. As upset as Rivera supposedly was, he pitched one of the best reliever seasons of all time.
It’s always possible to say a player could have performed better under X conditions. It’s just extremely difficult to prove it because it’s a hypothetical. Could Girardi have done things that would have coaxed better performance out of his players? I’m sure of it. But so could the manager of every other team that doesn’t win the WS this season.
By the way, Pete is being fair here because he notes that any problems with Girardi’s managerial style are fixable. I’m sure he’s right about that. The bottom line is Girardi did a fine job in managing the team based on decisions and strategies we could actually see. If his biggest problem is that he needs to change his attitude a bit, and he’s smart enough to realize that, then we have nothing to worry about.
Jeff October 8th 12 noon
Hi Guys:
Also another thing which I think is sometimes not brought up enough; Girardi was CLEARLY not aggressive enough as a manager this season. I can’t even begin to count how many times the yanks would get a leadoff guy on 1st base, but instead of Girardi starting the runner, what would happen? Ok everybody now: DOUBLE PLAY! Does anyone remember how many potential rallies were literally erased by no out, or 1 out double plays this year? Jeter and A-Rod were at the forefront (no doubt about it!), but the entire lineup was guilty as well! The Yanks could have easily scored 50 or more runs this year if they had been more aggressive on the basepaths. Remember, the Yanks actually gave up FEWER runs as a team this year than last year! What does that tell you? Translation: Giardi (and Dave Eiland) were very, very good in handling the pitchers/bullpen this year, but he (along with the help of Meachum and Thompson) left a LOT to de desired as far as helping the team manufacture runs! Yes, pitching is ABSOLUTELY the difference between a winning team and a losing one (no doubt about that one either!), but a CHAMPIONSHIP team combines pitching along with a balanced lineup that can manufacture runs and not pop up or strike out with LISP (see also Jason Giambi).
I’m actually curious as to everyone’s opinion on this. Does anyone agree with me or am I imagining most of this. Thoughts?
Wow in the middle of the college and pro football season. The baseball playoffs in full swing and Francesca and Heyman have nothing better to talk about than Joe Giradi locker-room. Heyman admitted it was second hand information about Giradi’s relationship with his players. Give Joe G. a break he won 89 games in the toughest division in baseball. He must have been doing something right. In Torre’s first 15 years of managing the most he ever won was 89 games and he did that only once.
You people need to get off Cashman’s tail. Saying Epstein is better is just ridiculous. This is Cash’s first year without a playoff since he started in 1998.
When did Epstein start? 2004 i think. The Sox missed the playoffs in 2006. So, to repeat. Cashman won in 1998, 1999, 2000. Epstein won in 2004 and 2007.
I dont see the logic on how you think Cashman is inferior.
Cash had almost nothing to do with the teams that won the world series – those were put together before he got here. he barely had anything to do with the teams of the early 2000s either because he wasnt making many if any decisions. Cash is responsible for the last three yrs in which hardly any solid pitching acquisitions were made and the team has gotten progressively worse each yr. Not to mention, Girardi is cashmans hand picked manager while cash had nothing to do with torre. This is cashmans team now, the teams in the late 90s were not at all his responsibility.
these trade proposals for phil Hughes are obsurd, why trade young pitchers for young hitters, pitching is far more valuable, kemp for hughes would be a horrable move. your all effing idiots.