Hot Stove Mailbag No. 1
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- October
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Here we go with the first of many hot stove mailbags before the start of spring training. Thanks for your questions. Here we go …
Many people have written: What about Rocco Baldelli for center field next season?
Answer: Unfortunately, it doesn’t make sense. Baldelli has a rare neuromuscular disease known as mitochondrial myopathy, for which there is no cure. It leaves him fatigued after short workouts and will keep him from playing in the field for more than one game a week, if that. The disease can lead to heart failure, diabetes, deafness, blindness or seizures. Baldelli can DH but nobody is sure how long he’ll be able to do that.
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Herbert writes: What are your thoughts on this deal: Cano and Kennedy for Matt Kemp and Blake DeWitt. And maybe one of the teams throws in an additional player. I think Cano is still going to be a very good player, but maybe he needs a change of scenery. Kemp is a five-tool player and you fill second base with DeWitt, who Torre seems to like. And Kennedy could still be good or he may not. What are your thoughts?
Answer: If the additional player the Yankees throw in is Joba Chamberlain, maybe the Dodgers would do it. Why would LA trade two starters from a team that made the NLCS for a second baseman coming off his worst year as a pro and a AAA pitcher who was demoted twice out of the majors last season? Oh, and both may have an attitude problem. It’s great to try and come up with trade ideas. But you have to consider the other team. If the trade sounds great for the Yankees, it’s probably not getting made.
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Danny from Brooklyn writes: Pete, do you have any idea how common Jorge Posada’s operation was as far as catchers go? Is there a high success rate as far as recovery? How concerned should Yankee fans be about his shoulder going forward?
Answer: Very concerned. This is now the second time Posada will have had shoulder surgery and he is 37, which is old for a perfectly healthy catcher. We were told in July that this surgery would require six months to rehab. Look at this way, his throwing program does not start until Dec. 1. That’s four months after the operation. It’s not a common procedure for catchers but the success rate is high according to his doctor, David Altchek. But given Jorge’s age and history, his return as a full-time receiver is no guarantee.
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Mike from Buffalo writes: I know Brian Cashman mentioned about Johnny Damon being an outfielder next year, but has he mentioned anything about Brett Gardner? Certainly Gardner has done what history has shown, (that it takes a while for him to show anything each level he goes up, but then is a force to reckon with) but is Cashman considering keeping him in center field for next year?
Answer: It will be a long time before you hear Brian Cashman and/or Joe Girardi heap praise or promise jobs to rookies again. They got burned pretty badly by giving Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy rotation spots last spring. The kids will have to earn everything from now on.
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Mike writes: What do you think of any potential trade targets on the market for the Yankees this offseason, specifically pitchers? Would Jake Peavy, Zack Greinke or even Matt Cain be available to the Yankees for the right package? And if so, who do you think would make up the right package? I know Peavy has a few years on his contract left but I’ve read online that he’s pretty unhappy in SD.
Answer: Anybody is available at the right package. But it’s going to take giving up some talent. And by that we mean Cano, Hughes, Melancon, Montero, etc. You can’t expect to trade four guys the Yankees don’t much need for one good player. Peavy is said to be open to a trade. But the Padres would want a lot back for him, as well they should.
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Donald writes: Has a date been set for when Yankee Stadium will be razed? I haven’t heard any reports on this, but I’m assuming it will be before Opening Day 2009.
Answer: I’m sure there is a date but it hasn’t been made public. Given how close it is to the subway tracks, city streets and other buildings, the Stadium can’t be imploded. There will be essentially a dismantling. There is a “closing ceremony” set for early November. I would assume they’ll start shortly after that.
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Dylan writes: Do you think Brett Gardner can play center field next year, and more importantly, do you think the front office sees that as an option? That way, you could move Nady to right, Damon to left, make Matsui the everyday DH and sign Teixeira. Let me know what you think.
Answer: Sounds like a plan to me, Dylan. I’d like to see Brett given every chance to start in center. They Yankees need to get younger and better defensively. I think his ceiling is higher than that of Melky Cabrera, too. As to what the front office thinks, it likely depends on what is available this winter.
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John writes: Was wondering if you think the Yanks have interest in Jon Garland. I really don’t think Sabathia is coming here, so I can see the Yanks going for Burnett and another starter. I am leery of Ben Sheets with his injury history and being an NL pitcher. How about Burnett and Garland? Also, both Hank and Cashman have indicated they will not pursue Manny Ramirez, but do you believe that? As much of a clown as he is, he produces, and when it matters most. What are your thoughts?
Answer: Forget Sheets, he’s hurt. Garland is certainly an second-tier option if Sabathia goes elsewhere. I don’t see Manny coming to the Yankees. He’s an older DH who is a liability in the OF. They already have several of those sorts of players. Plus I don’t see he and Joe Girardi being pals.
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Stephen writes: I know Andrew Brackman is going to play winter ball in Hawaii, but didn’t know if you had any updates on his rehab. Is there a chance he’ll be in the mix by September of next year or will he be babied to the ump-teenth degree after the Hughes/Kennedy situations?
Answer: I would doubt Brackman will be major-league ready in 2009 or maybe even 2010 for that matter. This is a guy who pitched in only 30 games and 149.1 innings in college. He needs to learn a lot before he’s ready for the majors. He’ll start at Class A and work his way up. I also disagree with the idea that the Yankees have babied anybody. Studies gave shown that pitchers need to have their innings built up gradually when they break into pro ball otherwise they risk shoulder and/elbow injuries. Just because people wish they could just run somebody like Joba out there for 200 innings doesn’t mean those studies suddenly lack merit.
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Hank S. in Tampa writes: Has anybody found my cell phone?
Answer: Hopefully not.
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Ted writes: I heard something fairly disturbing during a YES broadcast. Michael Kay said that Joe Girardi commented on a question about being more patient at the plate by saying that he thinks the game has changed, that pitchers now attack the strike zone more aggressively, and being patient just gets hitters in the hole 0-1 or 0-2. The implication was that Girardi was of the opinion that hitters should not try to be as patient as they may have been in the past. Clearly, given his comments at his press conference, this doesn’t appear to be a position Brian Cashman takes. Is there any reason to believe that the team’s lack of discipline at the plate this year had to do with managerial philosophy as opposed to some guys having bad years, and some guys getting hurt? If so, that could spell a more long-term problem for the team.
Answer: I don’t think the manager has a direct impact on plate discipline. I would doubt (at least I hope not) that Girardi instructed his players to swing at pitches earlier in the count. I do think that once the likes of Ponson and Rasner were in the rotation, the hitters started to press and some guys got out of what they would normally do. Girardi probably could have done a better job of calming everybody down in June instead of holding a team meeting every 20 minutes. I can’t imagine being patient and working counts will ever not be the right approach. I’ve not heard Girardi espouse that.
Thanks again for the questions.
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on Tuesday, October 7th, 2008 at 3:56 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
According to an article in the NY Post back in September, dismantling of the stadium is not going to begin until sometime between March and May 2009. Yankee execs aren’t even leaving their offices at the stadium until February 2009. That stage of the dismantling is only for the purpose of removing items for resale. The larger scale dismantling is scheduled to end spring of 2010.
Regarding the last question…….I think Girardi maybe right (a little bit) how many times did we see the “Scapegoat” of the team take the first pitch down the middle and then struggle the rest of the at bat (and he wasn’t the only one). Its one thing to get deep into the count but the main goal should be to see “your’ pitch and hit it…regardless if its the first pitch or the fifth pitch. The Yankee batters need to use variety and keep the pitchers off balance as well. I think just about every pitcher out there knew most of them were going to take first pitch.
Good Q & A Pete. particularly liked question and responce fron “Hank S. in Tampa” . LOL!!!! kEEP UP THE GREAT WORK
If Girardi’s against working pitchers, I’m against Girardi working.
It depends on the situation. If you are facing a starter, you want to take pitches to get him out of the game as soon as possible. The Yankees have used this strategy to be one of the best offenses in the league because it wears out starters and lets the hitters go against the generally weaker long relief.
Just tell me everything is going to be all right.
Sorry Kevin,
Don’t you see what is going on…ever since the Sawx won it all in 2004 this country has started to fall apart…gas and home heating oil prices have double almost tripled in some areas and now your 401K is on the verge of becoming a 201K.
I knew the end of the world was coming once the Sawx won, I just didn’t think it would come this fast.
So Kevin…I just don’t know if everything is going to be all right.
Zack Greinke might be a good pitcher in KC. But he had mental issues, and couldn’t handle the pressure there. Could you imagine what would happen to him in NY? Forget him! No offense to the guy, but he wouldn’t be able to handle the NY spot light.
Also I heard nothing will be done in the old stadium until March.
Based upon Posada’s age, his type of injury, and the hole at first…the Yankees should be looking to move Posada to 1B and have him DH some of the time.
Posada’s strength is his bat…so keeping him in the lineup as much as possible should be the goal…not stroking his ego because he thinks he should be catching.
How many times does Jorge have to say it!! He doesn’t want to play first. The Yankees signed him to be a catcher and they are going to give him every opportunity to be a catcher.
He can say whatever he wants…he doesn’t run the team…and if he can’t throw, you can hide him better at 1B/DH than you can as a catcher
Putting him at catcher when he can’t throw only invites the other team to run wild on you…and screw up your already suspect pitching staff
You can make the same case for Jeter (not now but later)….in a few years he will have to be moved..he can’t play short at 38…and he’ll have to accept it…
Boy do I need to talk some Yankee baseball today.
I’m completely surrounded by people here in boston that can’t stop talking about last nights game.
I’m in hell!
After seeing the ALDS, I think the Yanks should go after Texiera. The guy batted .500 in the series, and made some nice defensive plays. I can see him in pinstripes next season, and think he would be a good fit.
DMan
What are they talking about? Baseball ended on Sept 28, there is nothing going on. Just FOOTBALL baby!!
I think Texiera would be a nice fit…but the decision might come down to pitching or a 1B…that’s why I think Posada/Miranda would be a good (inexpensive) option there
Braintrust -
The only caveat I see with Teixeira is if people expect him to be the ONE to make the difference. He hit .500, but Vlad (and ohters) did nothing. Angels lost.
If you’re looking to replace Abreu’s offensive production and improve the defense at 1B and add some lineup flexibility because Tex is a switch hitter, then great. If you’re expecting Tex alone to put them over the “hump,” that’s probably not going to happen.
jennifer-
Oh of course! Whew, this must just be a bad dream. =]
“If you’re expecting Tex alone to put them over the “hump,†that’s probably not going to happen.”
i think reasonable fans understand Teixeira would only be a piece to the puzzle, and that its the rotation upgrades that will make or break the team as constructed for 2009.
but especially if they let Abreu walk, they need to get offense from somewhere. if you go with Gardner, Damon, and Nady in the OF, defensively i feel ok with that, but you need someone to bat with ARod in the middle of the lineup, and Teixeira can do that.
we dont need cheap options, we dont need patchwork plans and platoons.
we need real players who arent learning to play the position, or played it in the past that can play 1B if they really have to.
you shouldnt have to rely on that.
I would love to see the Yankees sign Tex, but he’s going to command such a gross amount of money.
Pete, Blake Dewitt is a horrible baseball player. That trade is just Cano and Kennedy for Kemp, which is pretty reasonable. Unless you actually consider Dewitt (.264/.344/.383)a “starter” that is. Kemp, by the way, does have an attitude problem, is not a good defensive CFer, and has worse career offensive numbers than Cano (107 OPS+ vs. 110 OPS+). Long story short, unless one actually thinks that the 2008 version of Cano is the one we are going to get from here on out instead of the 2005-2007 version, it’s not a good trade from the Yankees perspective.
Taylor were you making a case for or against acquiring Kemp? All those things you mention when talking bout Kemp makes Robbie seem like the player you keep imo.
I wouldn’t want Blake Dewitt. If the Yankees trade Cano the next best option would be to sign Orlando Hudson. Cano for Kemp straight up is pretty fair but I think Kemp has a higher ceiling than Cano. I doubt the Dodgers would go for that trade especially after the year Cano has had.
I doubt Gardner is the starting CF next year, he’ll probably be a 4th outfielder. I’d like the Yankees to pursue someone like Mike Cameron to start in CF. Then in 2010 hopefully Austin Jackson will be knocking on the door. Mike Cameron is a good fielder and he will bring more to the table offensively than Gardner or Melky.
Teixeira would be a nice signing but the priority should be on starting pitching. I’m just not sure if the Yankees will want to commit huge money to Teixiera if they are also spending tons of dough on Sabathia and/or Burnett.
I don’t really see the point in pursuing a #1 starter via a trade. Sabathia costs only money and a draft pick.
Doreen, great point about Teixeira. Teams don’t live and die by the performance of 1 player in the postseason.
Remember when the Yankees played Texas every year (so it seemed)in the post season and Juan Gonzalez hit homruns every at bat.
Blake Dewitt was aquired by the Dodgers with the draft pick the Yankees lost to them for signing Paul Quantrill.
“Doreen, great point about Teixeira. Teams don’t live and die by the performance of 1 player in the postseason.”
and yet, how does ARod get the grief he gets still if thats the case?
not saying i disagree with you, because like the economy in the election, it’s the pitching, stupid.
but if everyone understood what you just said, ARod would be a much more relaxed, and then maybe productive, individual. i long to live in that world in the near future.
One thing we won’t see this off-season are the Yankees signing a bunch of guys to large, long term deals to fill all of their areas of need.
If there is one recurring theme this post-season, and the season in general, its that you don’t fill all of your needs through free agency.
Its about using money WISELY, something the Yankees have been poor at doing the past few years.
If they sign Tex, forget about CC and think smaller (in terms of talent) names for pitching help. Someone like Derek Lowe, for example.
If they sign CC, forget Tex, and think about the trade market for a first baseman.
Especially with the economy in the condition its in, I don’t expect the Yankees to be wallpapering MLB with checks.
I expect the payroll to be at least 10% lower next season and they will have to fill their needs within those parameters.
It can be done. This is not exactly rocket science.
“I’d like the Yankees to pursue someone like Mike Cameron to start in CF.”
i dont disagree, but the Brewers hold Cameron’s future in their hands, with an option for next year they are likely to pick up. he prob isnt available.
There’s now 2 teams eliminated from the playoffs with players highest on the Yankees radar.
They can’t be talked with or about by team officials until 15 days after the World Series is completed or it’s called tampering.
Not sure what there isn’t too like about Gardner…
In less than 42 games he had 16 RBI’s and 13 SB’s (albeit a 220 avg). Defensively he is more than adequate in center.
He’s a patient hitter and a tough out…if you put him in the 9 hole..you lenghten the lineup and wear out the pitcher
He’s 24 years old…he should given a chance. He’s definately a better option than Mike Cameron
Charlie Horse, let me get this straight. Giambi was terrible at first because he couldn’t throw, yet you seem to think that if Posada can’t throw he should be covering first. Isn’t that one of the problems the Yankees have had already and want to fix?
If Posada can’t throw moving him to first isn’t a great move. He can’t hit for enough power and average for that position. It makes the Yankees weaker, not stronger.
Just about EVERYBODY overrates playoff performance.
You can’t take a handful of AB’s and draw conclusions from them.
Fans and talk show hosts do it all the time and it just leads to false reads on players.
Its the same crowd that would take Figgins over Arod based on Figgins play against the Yankees.
Yet, when you watch him for an ENTIRE season, you see his limitations.
There is always the tendency to go overboard on someone based on a small sample size. Its the theory of primacy and recency. Folks remember the last event that occurs.
If Arod gets enough opportunities, he will produce in the post-season. He did it in Seattle and in the ‘04 ALDS. He will do it again.
The reason? He’s too good a player not to do it.
Vlad’s post-season numbers were worse than Arod’s yet, nobody talks about it.
The benefit of being in a soft media market as opposed to being in a tougher media market.
Charlie Horse:
Having Posada at first is not a good idea (unless it is during interleague or late in blowout game). The reason Posada’s bat is so great is because of the position he plays. Having a catcher who can drive in 75-80 and hit 20 HRs is a luxury. Sticking the same catcher at first is just a patch and would downgrade both the C and 1B position.
Isn’t it about time we had a real genuine 1B? Aren’t we all tired of seeing players out of position and retreads just thrown there?
I know I am.
jennifer
October 7th, 2008 at 8:37 am
How many times does Jorge have to say it!! He doesn’t want to play first. The Yankees signed him to be a catcher and they are going to give him every opportunity to be a catcher.
if posada struggles as a catcher the yankees will do whatever is best for the team.posada doesn’t have much of a choice if he is that bad as a catcher.
he could catch part time with molina and when matsui’s contract is up he could dh full time.
the yankees should get a real first baseman,not throw a player there who has never played the position.
i find it comical how people keep saying posada said he won’t play first base.
he will play whereever the yankees wan’t him to.
If Posada can’t throw moving him to first isn’t a great move. He can’t hit for enough power and average for that position. It makes the Yankees weaker, not stronger.
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Well then what do you do with your 13 million dollar investment for the next 3 years…
Its obviously not optimal…but it beats putting him behind the plate where he is a liability on every pitch (when there is a baserunner)
Yes SJ, there’s a lot of truth about the economy having an affect on how baseball will do business for the next few years.
I believe it will be high on every team’s agenda duting the GM and winter meetings.
There’s been hints out of the Commissioner’s office but will not be a subject widely discussed.
A-Rod may have received the very last of monster contracts for some years to come.
Who says they are likely to pick it up? They spent a lot of money this year to get into the postseason, I don’t think its a lock that they spend $10 million on Cameron for one more year. Even if they do, he’s on a 1 year contract and therefore is trade bait. Also I said someone LIKE Cameron, there are other options out there. Cody Ross for one seems like a viable CF. He’s arbitration eligible so Florida might be willing to trade him.
SJ44, obviously the Yankees can’t solve everything through free agency but there are a lot of problems they CAN solve. Look at what Boston did in the offseason before 2007. They spent massive amounts of money on free agents (and Daisuke) and wound up winning the world series.
The key is the Yankees have to make smart signings. They can’t just spend a ton of money on players that don’t fit on the team.
“The benefit of being in a soft media market as opposed to being in a tougher media market.”
and not being paid the most money of any player to ever play the game.
SJ44: Cashman has said the payroll is going to be 180mil or so.
Thats 60mil (give or take) they have to spend.
“because like the economy in the election, it’s the pitching, stupid.”
Very true. Look at the last 4 teams standing they all have very good staffs.
“i find it comical how people keep saying posada said he won’t play first base.
he will play whereever the yankees wan’t him to.”
but that doesnt mean Posada playing 1B is really best for the team. it isnt.
And I find it comical that people think you can throw anyone out there and they can play first. Did people NOT see Jason playing there for the last 7 years?
“I don’t think its a lock that they spend $10 million on Cameron for one more year. Even if they do, he’s on a 1 year contract and therefore is trade bait.”
in today’s league, veterans on short term, below market deals are valuable to organizations. to me, seems like a no brainer for them.
and he is not a guy i want to trade for. he’d be a good fit if im only paying him a salary, but he’s not the type of player im moving prospects to acquire.
“If the additional player the Yankees throw in is Joba Chamberlain, maybe the Dodgers would do it. Why would LA trade two starters from a team that made the NLCS for a second baseman coming off his worst year as a pro and a AAA pitcher who was demoted twice out of the majors last season? Oh, and both may have an attitude problem. It’s great to try and come up with trade ideas. But you have to consider the other team. If the trade sounds great for the Yankees, it’s probably not getting made.”
Ok – so I have this right, the Dodgers would laugh at a trade for cano and kennedy for kemp and dewitt?
Cano, a 25 year old career .303 hitter with a career OPS of .803 and kennedy, a young starting pitcher who has had success in the majors be it over a short duration…….for a 23 year old .264 hitting second baseman/utility infielder and a 24 year old outfielder with similar numbers to Cano gets laughed at unless Joba Chamberlain is in the deal?
Am I the only one who finds this absurd?
First base is the easiest position to field, outfield or infield…that’s why you see a lot of unathletic players there…that’s why it makes the most sense for Posada to be moved there if he can’t catch
The idea that the Yankees would possibly trade for Peavy should be put to bed forever.
The Padres would demand the world for Peavy. He is under team control through 2012 and his contract is ridiculously team-friendly. Look it up and compare it to any other top pitcher’s contract.
The package would begin with Hughes and Cano and expand to include at least two other top prospects and some B prospects. This is not a player the Yankees could conceivably acquire by sending over a large group of B prospects.
Contrary to what Pete says, there is zero chance the Yankees land Peavy.
“i find it comical how people keep saying posada said he won’t play first base.
he will play whereever the yankees wan’t him to.â€
but that doesnt mean Posada playing 1B is really best for the team. it isnt.
i agree.
i said the yankees should get a real first baseman.
“Based upon Posada’s age, his type of injury, and the hole at first…the Yankees should be looking to move Posada to 1B and have him DH some of the time.
Posada’s strength is his bat…so keeping him in the lineup as much as possible should be the goal…not stroking his ego because he thinks he should be catching.”
I don’t think you move Posada to first. He doesn’t want to do it, who knows if he can be the gold-glove guy we want, and if he can catch then we have a huge hole at 1B again.
I say we get Tex, hope Posada and Molina can mix-and-match this year and if Posada can’t catch in 2010 we slot him in at DH when Matsui is gone.
A quick glance of the rosters for the LCS shows that the Phillies are the one team who depends mostly on home grown players:
Rollins
Utley
Howard
Burrell
Hammels
Meyers
Why isn’t their GM being praised?
Looking again at what Pete wrote I see my comment was unnecessarily harsh, as he wrote that Peavy would be available for the right price. My point is that paying that price (i.e., shipping out all our top prospects) is so contrary to Cashman’s MO that I think the Yankees would never do it.
To put it another way, Peavy would command more in a trade than Santana did. It would be too much.
“If they sign Tex, forget about CC and think smaller (in terms of talent) names for pitching help. Someone like Derek Lowe, for example.”
Tex is a beast. Go grab Tex and forget worrying about CC and his durability, size, pitch count/limit, etc. Sign Lowe, Burnett, whoever below him. That is the BEST course of action for the Yankees. It also allows us to dump Abreu’s salary, get some draft picks, and upgrade our defense in the outfield/1B.
Arliss: Maybe if we throw in Hughes they will give us Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre…..
Let’s hear some projections as to what kind of contract Tex is going to want (remember Boras is his agent).
I’ll start….
10 years/20 mil per…
if no team signs him his price will come down.five years 100 million or stay home unemployed.
Its easy to say, “Just give a guy a blank check” or, “a must sign”. Its not our money.
The economy will dictate free agency this off-season, not the other way around, IMO.
Its not 2007. Teams are going to hold the line on a lot of deals because of the economy.
I would be surprised to see a team tie up 6+ years on CC and 8+ years on Tex. I don’t care what their agents say, its a big committment to make for teams in a bad economy.
The chances those deals are insurable in their entirety right now are slim. Meaning, the team would be on the hook for all of the contract and that affects their credit standings.
You may see a lot of creativity by teams and free agents this year. Shorter years, higher AAV could be on the table.
This off-season is so much more complicated than we ever thought it would be 6 months ago.
Its going to be fascinating to see how teams handle their off-season business.
arod saw that no team was going to give him what he wanted and came running back to the yankees,very smart person.
Dumbest speculation on this is that Cano “needs a change of scenery…”
How is that so? He had an off year, after 3 years that were not only productive, but demonstrate what this player is capable of going forward. An adjustment was made at the end of the season, and he was on fire. He also responded after working with his dad post-All Star break, and regressed only after a thumb injury. The thought that he “needs a change of scenery” is not an defensible point of view, because it is in no way supported by reality.
Maybe the Yankees should use the Angles as an example on how to both build through the farm and sign free agents.
It seems they mostly focus on deveoping pitching: Lackey, Weaver, Saunders, Santanna, Shields, Krod.
I could see the Angles opening up the bank for Tex, given how Vlad performed this postseason. As a result, the Yanks will overpay him…like they did A-Rod
10 years/ 20 mil…and everyone will cheer it
Until they get swept in the 1st round of 2009
I liked what I saw of Teixeira at first base. Meantime, when the camera was in close-up I kept thinking that his demeanor reminded me of somebody. This morning as I was reading around the sports sections I noticed that Sherman had been reporting on Teixeira and quoting people who likened him to Alex Rodriguez in personality and approach. Bingo!
He does have that same facial expression but does anybody know anything about whether he also has the one-and-twentyfour personality?
I was feeling some enthusiasm for the idea of NYY acquiring Teixeira. Not that this would make me say definitely don’t get him if true — I believe the Yankees are better with AR than without him — but it would somewhat temper my enthusiasm…
You really think the Yankees should follow the Angels model>
They underachieve in the playoffs more than the Yankees.
You know what the Angels are? A VERY overrated team.
They are soft and folks think they are better than they are.
You want to follow a “model” in today’s baseball? Follow the Red Sox.
A balance of young and old. They spend a TON of money, more than anybody in baseball, on player development and the draft.
They use their money wisely (for the most part) in free agency.
They have balance in the lineup and on the mound.
As much as it pains all of us to admit right now, the Red Sox are the gold standard in terms of how to build a team.
ARLISS
“Ok – so I have this right, the Dodgers would laugh at a trade for cano and kennedy for kemp and dewitt?
Cano, a 25 year old career .303 hitter with a career OPS of .803 and kennedy, a young starting pitcher who has had success in the majors be it over a short duration…….for a 23 year old .264 hitting second baseman/utility infielder and a 24 year old outfielder with similar numbers to Cano gets laughed at unless Joba Chamberlain is in the deal?
Am I the only one who finds this absurd?”
No, you’re not the only one. What is astonishing, even an embarassment to me as a Yankee fan, is an egregious lack of knowledge shown by some of the Yankee fan base regarding Cano’s ability, and the apparent amnesia regarding his numbers. I don’t know how many times he’s referred to as a “prospect” – hunh?? – and a guy “with potential” but apparently not one who has put up numbers, even though he has.
It’s kind of like the guy who suggests he may “need a change of scenery.” There’s nothing to indicate that this is so. It’d be one thing if he had been here for six years, and had never shown anything but a nice swing, that hadn’t translated into numbers. People make things up to suit their own fleeting desires, and their own 15-second attention span.
Tom Phillies GM isnt being praised because Pat Gillick wasnt there when they got those players . Part of the time it was Ed Wade who was not a popular GM at all in terms of giving contract big ones for so so players BUT did do well in the draft and perhaps his best move although he didnt get anything in return was trading away Bobby Abreu who it seems once they got rid of him the team came to gel.
“A quick glance of the rosters for the LCS shows that the Phillies are the one team who depends mostly on home grown players:”
What about the Dodgers?
Loney, Kemp, Ethier, Martin, Dewitt, Billingsley, Kershaw, Broxton
Also the Rays depend completely on home grown players: Upton, Crawford, Longoria, Kazmir, Shields, etc
The Red Sox have a good mix of home grown and free agent/trade talent too.
Tex’s rep around the game is one of being a kind of aloof guy.
He’s very intelligent. Which, in baseball, often gives off bad vibes.
Players, and some execs in the game, don’t like “college guys”.
I don’t mean, “college guys” as players. I mean as intelligent, articulate guys.
I think that’s where his “rep” comes from. He’s also not a great player. A very good player but, not a great player.
Now, before the stat hounds go crazy, WATCH him play. don’t just read the stat sheet.
When you WATCH him play, you see a very good player.
A 200 million dollar player? No.
That’s the rub with him.
You don’t pay great money to a good player and expect him to turn out great. That’s a recipe for failure.
He may get great money, even in a bad market but, that won’t make him “great”.
That’s why its a tough call on him.
Personally, I’d put the money into pitching and use the trade market to find a real first basemen. I think it would be money better spent for the Yankees.
Larry Bowa has an out in his contract after this season. The Yanks should seriously consider bringing him back as the 3rd base coach. This solves 2 problems – 3rd base coach (where Bowa was great), and Robinson Cano (since he seems to respond to being pushed by Bowa)
My guess is, right now, no one knows what the Yankee payroll will be next year, probably not even Brian Cashman.
The new stadium is bound to have a big impact on Yankee finances. My guess is either no one on this blog knows what that impact will be, or if they know, they aren’t saying.
Nonetheless, I do not believe the Yanks will open next season with a team they do not believe is at least even odds to make the season. They need that to keep the new stadium full at the ticket prices they are asking.
To get there, they have to sign one big FA hitter and one big FA pitcher. If someone can show me how the Yanks get to the playoffs without that, I’ll listen, but I don’t think its possible.
You’d need everything to go right otherwise, and that isn’t likely.
My guess is Tex and one of CC or Burnett gets a big offer, and the Yanks postseason moves will depend on whether they can sign them.
It will take at least 6 years, IMO, to sign CC, and 6 plus to sign Texeira. The market isn’t going to move enough to get them for less unless the Crash actually occurs. Therefore, barring disaster I think the Yanks will do that.
Burnett probably goes less than 6 years, so that’s probably an attractive option.
“You know what the Angels are? A VERY overrated team.”
Absolutely. Go look at run differentials if you want to see the best teams in the league. The two teams with the best run differentials are the Red Sox and Cubs. The Cubs choked but it wasn’t due to lack of talent. The Angels have been playing over their head all season. The Sox are easily the best team in the AL
*** at least even odds to make the POST season ***
Personally, I’d put the money into pitching and use the trade market to find a real first basemen. I think it would be money better spent for the Yankees.
I couldn’t agree more…20 mil per year is much better spent on a pitcher than a first baseman…you have options at first,: miranda, posada (I know how you all feel about the idea), or FA, and possibly montero or laird in the future
Spending 20 mil/per on CC makes much more sense
The Yanks have the money to spend big on a pitcher AND a hitter. It makes no sense to me not to do it.
SJ44,
I would never pay $200 million for Teixeira. I’d draw the line around 6 years/$120 million. I would tack on a few more million/year if it meant keeping the contract to 6 years. If the Angels want to give him some crazy 8-10 year contract, fine. The Yankees will never do that. ARod made and broke that mold.
Not sure what you’re getting at with the good/great comparison. I’ve looked at his stats and watched him play and he looks great to me. Hits for average and power, gets on base, fields well, switch hits. He’s worth top FA money, which these days is about $20 million/year. He’s no Pujols, but he’s a very valuable player.
It will be really interesting to see what the Yankees do this off season, given that they will probably be more conservative than in years previous.
As much as the current situation impacts the Yankees, I’m curious to see how it affects other teams.
Because New York is so tied up in financial markets, New York teams are bound to be the most affected by it, but no team is likely to be spared.
Teixeira is good, not great–perhaps similar to Kotchman. The players it would take to get Kkotchman might, in the end, be cheaper than the pice to side Teixeira.
Does anyone know where the turf for the new Yankee Stadium is coming from?
It has to have been growing during 2008 somewhere.
Rebecca, on what planet are Texeira and Kotchman similar players? I know they have two legs, two arms, one head, etc., but I think the similarities pretty much end there.
SJ44 –
“You don’t pay great money to a good player and expect him to turn out great. That’s a recipe for failure.
Personally, I’d put the money into pitching and use the trade market to find a real first basemen. I think it would be money better spent for the Yankees.”
But don’t you think this is more of a swap than a major acquisition. I, personally, don’t think Tex is going to get all this money he is commanding. If we drop Abreu’s 12-16 million then the difference for Tex should only be another 3-6. At the same time we would be upgrading our defense both in the outfield and at 1B.
If you don’t bring in Tex, and you get rid of Giambi, then you certainly have to bring Abreu back just because of the OBP thing.
It seems more like a swap than a major acquisition to me.
Just look at the division the Angels play in.
SJ, I agree with you regarding spending $$, it has to be on pitching, but they have to get better on defense and starting at first would be a good idea.
One of the reason, IMO to build pitching depth is to be able to trade from that depth to help the team. That is why I also believe building catching depth has been an area that Cash is also stockpiling.
Someone mentioned that like Posada, Jeter won’t be able to play his original position forever. So what’s stopping him from playing short til he’s 38 and beyond? Omar Vizquel did it with no problem and I don’t see why Jeter can’t do the same as long as he stays fit and in good shape.
“Teixeira is good, not great–perhaps similar to Kotchman.”
Teixeira hits about 20 more HRs and 10 more doubles a year than Kotchman, hits for a higher average, and switch hits. But sure, otherwise they’re the same player
“The players it would take to get Kkotchman might, in the end, be cheaper than the pice to side Teixeira.”
The Braves got Kotchman for Teixeira because he is young, cheap, and fills the void at first left by Teixeira. They won’t trade him for any package that makes sense for us.
Wave Your Hat: good enough that the Braves took him for Tex.
“Someone mentioned that like Posada, Jeter won’t be able to play his original position forever. So what’s stopping him from playing short til he’s 38 and beyond? Omar Vizquel did it with no problem and I don’t see why Jeter can’t do the same as long as he stays fit and in good shape.”
Because everyone’s a negative-Nancy. I don’t see why he couldn’t do it either. Not at 18-million/year though with decreased defense.
“Now, before the stat hounds go crazy, WATCH him play. don’t just read the stat sheet.”
The biggest “stat hound” around here, CB, has talked a lot about Tex and he agrees with you. Tex is very good but not great and thus the Yankees shouldn’t pay him like he’s Albert Pujols.
I’d love to have Tex but I’m not sure his price will be reasonable.
The Yankees are obviously no longer a “slugging” team, that means they have to go get some great pitching and improve the defense. The Rays have a very mediocre offense this year so how did they win so many games? Great coaching, amazing pitching, solid defense.
okay, so apparently I am very off my game this morning
My apologies.
SJ44 -
Do you know, what is the longest contract in terms of years that a Red Sox player has?
Because I’m thinking that what has hurt the Yankees is one of the things that I like about them – they don’t unceremoniously cut off players, a la Damon. It’s like a two-edged sword, in my mind.
It is nice when a team has a history of having “lifelong” players on its team. But, at what point does that become limiting? At what point do we as fans have to realize that re-signing a long-time, much-loved, homegrown Yankee (or even a beloved “adopted” player) may feel good but results in sub-par seasons and no championships?
And giving long-term contracts a la Giambi can hamstring a team if it’s not the right player. Giambi couldn’t DH as he got older and even less athletic. Just doesn’t have the mind set, which is odd to me, because he seems like the type of player who would be able to do it.
Those seem to be the type of choices the Red Sox, a much “colder” organization, seemingly, than the Yankees, are able to make. It will be interesting to see what they do about Varitek. Is his value as a defense catcher and good game-caller large enough to justify re-signing him in spite of his diminishing offensive skills?
Omar Vizquel will go to the hall of fame because of his defense….Jeter will go to the hall of fame for his hitting (3000 hits) and WS rings…that’s the difference
If the Yanks defense does not improve the spending on pitching will be much less effective, if not wasted.
Up the middle (Jeter and Cano) is probably set, and that defense is, at best, mediocre.
I’d say throwing most of the money at pitching is NOT the way to go. Pitchers have much greater variation in results than hitters, as well.
The offense needs to be improved. We don’t need more than one top FA pitcher, plus re-signing one of Andy or Moose.
The Yanks have the money to bid high on Tex. We may not get him, but I don’t see any reason not to try.
Omar Vizquel will not go into the HOF.
“Omar Vizquel will go to the hall of fame because of his defense….Jeter will go to the hall of fame for his hitting (3000 hits) and WS rings…that’s the difference”
So he may not have hall-of-fame defense, but it’s still above average wouldn’t you say? It may be declining, but I’d rather have Jeter at short than most other shortstops in the league.
Doreen the Red Sox have a farm system that has been highly productive and is, right now, very well stocked with talent. They don’t need to give these long term deals if they don’t want to.
The Yankee farm system has generally been a wasteland, and while we have a few good prospects in it right now, is nowhere close to providing the quantity and quality of players to the Yanks that the Sox system does for them.
Therefore, the Yanks have to spend money to make up. Trying to say to be like the Sox, right now, is pointless.
SJ44
As much as it pains all of us to admit right now, the Red Sox are the gold standard in terms of how to build a team.
Couldn’t agree with you more. Think about it, when one of there players goes down. Lowell out, no problem, just move Youk to third, insert Kotsay or Casey. Drew down, no problem, move Ellsbury to right, insert Crisp. And on and on. They don’t lose any quality. That team is very flexible. They are very athletic and deep on the bench. The trouble is as Cashman says, when you have a team constructed of stars, it’s hard to get quality bench players because they know they are not going to get playing time behind A-Rod, Jeter, etc.
Where did this Idea that Teixeria is good but not great come from?
He’s an All-star first baseman who wins gold gloves and hits, on average, 36 homeruns a year?
“Up the middle (Jeter and Cano) is probably set, and that defense is, at best, mediocre.”
Not necessarily. Last year Cano was a solidly above average fielder and showing signs of more improvement. For most of this year he was above average in the field. He had one awful month and that brought his overall numbers way down. Jeter was average this year which for him is very good. One average fielder and one above average fielder is pretty good up the middle.
The biggest holes on defense were RF and first base. Both spots are open right now. Nady in RF will be a MASSIVE improvement over Abreu even if Nady is just average. Put a good fielder at first and the defense is much improved.
Lets not forget the division the Angels played in. The closest team was 21 gb. and the last place team was 39 gb.
What about Aaron Rowand?Did he drop off the face of the earth,or is he still a viable solution to the CF question?Does anyone see a possible trade of Cano,IPK,Matsui and a high minor league prospect for him and perhaps Matt
Cain?
Tom: From me being overtired.
“What about Aaron Rowand?Did he drop off the face of the earth,or is he still a viable solution to the CF question?Does anyone see a possible trade of Cano,IPK,Matsui and a high minor league prospect for him and perhaps Matt
Cain?”
I don’t think San Fran would take Matsui in that trade. They’d much rather have a young player rather than an aging DH-type player who has had injury problems the last 2 years. I suspect San Fran is through dealing with aging one-dimensional left-fielders.
Pounder
He should be viable and available…
But do you want to pay him his terrible salary?
“Does anyone see a possible trade of Cano,IPK,Matsui and a high minor league prospect for him and perhaps Matt
Cain?”
IPK is a head-case pitcher who hasn’t proven anything, Matsui can’t play the OF effectively and would have no spot in the NL, Cano is good and that prospect would have to be Phil Hughes to get that on the table.
I don’t think San Fran would take Matsui in that trade. They’d much rather have a young player rather than an aging DH-type player who has had injury problems the last 2 years. I suspect San Fran is through dealing with aging one-dimensional left-fielders.
I think they would if they wanted to get rid of the contract…he still has 4/12 mil per left…which makes it questionable why the Yanks would want him
Patrick,
We had a guy, not CB, come on here the other day and put Ortiz and Tex’s stats side by side, and conclude Tex is “as good as Ortiz and is a great player”.
When I read something like that, it makes me VERY glad that person doesn’t work for the Yankees. lol
Anybody who thinks Tex is as good a hitter as Ortiz, based on stats alone, ain’t watchin’ the games.
Ortiz is one of the best clutch hitters, and all around hitters when he is healthy, in the last 20 years in the game.
Tex is not as good a hitter as a healthy David Ortiz. He doesn’t carry teams. Ortiz does. A BIG difference.
Doreen,
That’s one of the key distinctions between the Yankees and Red Sox. The Red Sox don’t tie up years on their players.
The Yankees, often bowing to fan pressure, tend to tie up a lot of years on their players.
IMO, they should use their money in a way that gives them the best chance at flexibility.
That means shorter years and a higher Average Annual Value (AAV).
You tie up years on players and it messes with your entire payroll. Especially as the player ages.
Its why I don’t see the Yankees tying up a lot of years with their FA offers.
If folks think they are going to go for 8+ years for Tex or 6+ years CC, be prepared to be disappointed.
If they do so, they pretty much torch everything they have been trying to do for the last couple of years, in terms of roster/financial flexibility.
Its a losing strategy.
Patrick, I agree with you that replacing Giambi and Abreu with decent fielders will be a big defensive upgrade. Texeira is more than a decent fielder, by the way.
I am more pessimistic than you about our defense in the middle infield. I think it is more likely that Jeter will return closer to his historic norms, only a year older, and as to Cano, I hope you are right but I wouldn’t take it to the bank.
Wave Your Hat -
I know the Yankees, in terms of player development, are playing catch-up right now. But if they keep signing players to too-long-a-term contracts, they will never get out of the quagmire. I don’t object to them spending money, that would be foolish. What they need to do is be smarter about the players they sign.
Teixeira might be worth the contract it will take to get him, because he is a better all-around player than Giambi ever was. I won’t mind if they do sign Teixeira. But I’m guessing the Yankees are exploring a lot more options than I have any knowledge about – I’m more a casual observer, not familiar with all the players out there.
Same with pitching. But they don’t have so many prospects that they can do two major trades. One, bu not two, as I see it. Unless they want to keep depleting the system, never getting it up to speed. Signing Dice-K allowed the Red Sox not to have to lose any prospects for a top of the rotation pitcher (1-3).
As SJ44 said, this off-season will be fascinating on a few levels. Overall, what players are the Yankees going to acquire, and which will be departing? How will the economy affect free agent contracts? Which teams may be taken out of the running due to financial constraint or restraint? How creative can the Yankees get in using their money and their prospects in the most economical way?
SJ44-
The Yankees have to give long contracts because players with a lot of talent demand and get them.
The Red Sox have a vastly better farm system than the Yanks, so they have less of a need to sign players to long contracts to obtain top quality talent.
However, they gave long contracts to Manny and Ortiz, to Dice-K and others when they needed to.
I think, with all due respect, you are living in a dream world. The Yanks can’t win right now without going out and signing top talent, and that will require giving long contracts.
I wish it were not so but it is.
Ask Jorge if he wants Tex to play 1B. He’ll tell you, “We need an ace to over there.”
Tex is not getting a $200M deal. He wants to pick a place that he could live for the next part of his life. Is he willing to spend the next 7 years out in LA? I dunno, I might have to pull the lifestyle card and say he might be an east coast guy.
Who’s the most aloof, college guy out there? Yeah, you know him. Guy from Pennsylvania that went to Stanford.
If the price is right, you grab Tex as fast as you can. I don’t believe in blank check for CC or Tex. There are always options and sometimes they’re better than the best-laid plans.
Doreen, I agree 100% that the Yanks need to be smart about the players they sign.
I also agree that they don’t have enough in the farm system to do a lot of trades.
That’s why I think they Yanks are going to be forced into the big long contract game.
If they were willing to rebuild they wouldn’t have to, but I don’t see that happening. I have no special insight into the Yanks finances but surely the expense of a new stadium is going to force them to try and win in 09.
I also agree with you that this off-season will be extremely interesting.
Using the “don’t follow the Angles model because they Choke” is a ridiculous visceral response.
Using that logic the Yankees should shy away from signing CC because his Post-season performances the last couple of years have been duds.
Watch the off-season Wave. They aren’t giving out long term contracts to a lot of guys, if any.
Its not living in a dream world at all. Cashman pretty much said how it was going to be when he cautioned fans at his PC not to get caught up with certain names.
It would go against everything they are trying to do.
If he wasn’t retained? I think you could have seen them do away with the plan.
However, he was retained and that, coupled with a bad economy, is going to factor into what they do this off-season.
I know some fans are in denial about this.
All I can say is, let’s see how it plays out. I don’t think you are going to see them go overboard in offering long term (6+ years) deals to free agents.
The Redsox Team that lost to the Yankees in 2003 was, for the most part, the same as the one who beat them in 2004. Did they work on fixing their choking problem in spring training?
“We need an ace over there.â€
Apparently, Jorge’s English is better than mine.
I’m not liking all the doom and gloom over Jorge’s shoulder.
If he can’t catch what does he do? He’s said he doesn’t want to play 1B, but he has no other position except DH.
Bench coach?
SJ44,
Don’t be so quick to write off the thought that Teixeira and Ortiz bring comparable value to their teams.
Teixeira’s clutch stats are terrific, similar to Ortiz’s.
Ortiz is a better overall hitter when healthy, but he doesn’t play a position. Teixeira is fields very well and is one of the top hitters in the league.
I’m not saying Ortiz is overrated. I’m saying you’re underrating Teixeira. The only thing you’ve written about him is that you’ve seen him and he doesn’t look great to you. I’d like to know what I’m missing here. Teixeira does everything a great player should, so why isn’t he great?
Also, this “Can’t win” stuff is nonsense.
They won 89 games with a flawed and injured team.
This is not the Royals we are talking about.
This idea that they have to spend 400 million this off-season to “win” is ridiculous.
They didn’t spend that much when they won 4 WS in 5 years. Why do they have to do that now?
You run the operation as you do any successful operation. With balance.
A good trade or two, coupled with improved health and a free agent or two, and they can win the 5-6 games needed to become a playoff team.
After that? Its a all a crapshoot once you get in.
SJ44,
I think there are a “few” of us who wouldn’t mind scaling back.
If you have a healthy Wang and Joba, the pitching doesn’t look so dire.
You might have Andy. Moose might decide he can’t stay away from the game.
Aceves and Hughes would be serviceable at the back of the rotation.
But that doesn’t fly fans who are impatient. Watching Boston and Tampa in the playoffs doesn’t make it any easier.
SJ-
Well, only time will tell, as they say.
But I don’t think the “plan”, such as it is, precludes big contracts. Having some young talent in the system which can help at the major league level, even if they aren’t the big dogs, allows them to have the money to spend on guys like Tex and CC.
The problem before was that the Yanks were paying big dollars for almost everybody, including middle relief and the back end of the rotation, and then trying to save on the bench and getting no talent there at all.
I haven’t heard Cashman say anything that would indicate he won’t go after top talent. I do think he doesn’t want to trade away our farm talent to get it.
We’ll see, won’t we?
Hey SJ, you’re my personal favorite poster here, but I’d like to propose a situation that fits your bill of cutting 10% off the payroll while also allowing the Yankees to sign CC & Tex if they want to. Here’s what next years 25 man roster could potentially look like, tell me if this is that unreasonable:
1B – Teixeira ($21M)
2B – Cano ($6M)
3B – ARod ($32M)
SS – Jeter ($20M)
C – Posada ($13.1M)
LF – Damon ($13M)
RF – Nady ($5M)
CF – Gardner ($.5M)
DH – Matsui ($13M)
BN – Molina ($2M)
BN – Ransom ($.650M)
BN – Christian ($.5M)
BN – Miranda ($.5M)
SP – Wang ($4.6M)
SP – CC ($24 M)
SP – Pettite/Moose ($10M)
SP – Joba ($.825M)
SP – Hughes ($.5M)
RP – Mo ($15M)
RP – Marte ($6M)
RP – Bruney ($1M)
RP – Coke ($.5M)
RP – Aceves ($.5M)
RP – Melancon ($.425M)
RP – Robertson ($.5M)
TOTAL PAYROLL = $191.1 Million (8.6% Cut in Payroll)
Certainly room for changes, since in this proposed roster, I assume Hughes wins a SP job out of spring training, but there’s the possibility for Coke or Aceves to take his spot, slotting somebody else into the bullpen like Veras, Edwar, etc…
What has Tex done to make any of his teams better? Didn’t do it in Texas. Didn’t do it in Atlanta and didn’t do it in Anaheim.
Its more than just stat compiling. Its about having those moments when you carry a team when its needed, whether that’s in the regular season or post-season. He’s done neither.
When you (Tex) are seeking to become one of the 5 highest paid players in the game, which he is, you have to be that kind of player.
Thus far in his career, he hasn’t shown to be that kind of player.
Anaheim was the perfect test case for him and he failed on that stage. Five singles in the ALCS isn’t good enough if you want that kind of coin.
Good player? Absolutely. Great player….a player that takes your franchise to the next level? No.
He hasn’t done it yet. Why does anybody think he can do it now?
I disagree that the Angels are overrated. What evidence supports this statement? NO TEAM wanted to face LA during the regular season. Granted they play in a weak division, but other than they Rays playing them tough during the regular season (don’t know the record off the top) which team in the playoffs actually hung with them during the regular season and were beat them consistantly during the regular season? I think it just boils down to they just do not match up well with Boston. They have enough talent. Probably more than Boston on paper. Historically, why can’t we beat the Angels in the playoffs? I just need to see more evidence before I agree that LA are “overrated” when they are ranked in league leader categories in pitching, defense, and hitting….were they overrated when they won in 2002?
Ortiz is now the measurement of good 1B/DH?
What was his window when he was really good and a real threat? 2004-2007? How long has he been in the league? How are his HR numbers away from Fenway?
I’m not being sarcastic, I really don’t know. But I do know that Ortiz was not always Big Papi and that due to his injuries he’s a shadow of his former self.
Also, gauged on the market in the winter I figure the Yankees are comfortable giving CC a six year deal, taking him through his age 34 season. Tex gets a a 6 year deal, taking him through his age 34 season as well.
If the Yankees scale back, you can bet the other teams will.
How will Yankee prudence affect players? We used to drive up the price of contracts.
Ortiz and Tex are a good comparison. Offensivly they are really Similar:
Ortiz’s 162 game average: 36hr 121rbi .287BA .936OPS
Teixeira’s: 36HR 121RBI .290BA .919OPS.
Ortiz RISP 2005-’07: 31HR 227RBI .326BA 1.074OPS
Teixeira’s 2005-2007 RISP: 26HR 232RBI .331BA 1.042OPS
SJ44 -
“He hasn’t done it yet. Why does anybody think he can do it now?”
I agree. Fans want him because he’s better than anything we have right now. More foolish spending = NO TITLES (See 2000 – 2008)!!
BTW – Who else thinks Scioscia is a turd for pulling a suicide squeeze, with a left handed batter who eventually hit the ground ball that would have scored the go ahead run, thus ensuring that K-Rod would pitch the bottom of the ninth ? And people think Girardi is bad? Wow…
Young players on a bench doesn’t help your team. A bench should be for veteran guys who know how to handle playing less and prepare accordingly.
When the Yankees had effective benches, they had guys like Chili Davis, Tim Raines, Darryl Strawberry, etc coming off it.
Veteran guys, great leaders in the clubhouse, who took the young guys under their wings, and also contributed to the success of the team.
A couple of guys like that off the bench and you are much better off than loading the bench with young guys who have never played off the bench in their careers.
Basically, if you are the Yankees, its best to not overpay for starters and overpay for the bench.
You get a better bang for your buck that way.
Thanks, SJ, for the insight as to how Teixeira’s personality may have come to be perceived as not team-oriented. Guys who come across as too smart and/or too well-educated have a hard row to hoe. Makes me think of Mussina, whose wry/dry sense of humor (which I always enjoy) has often been misperceived.
If you look at the Red Sox and the Rays, they are good, young and only getting better. They have top farm talent. They will both be extremely tough next year.
If you look at the Yanks, we have questions at almost every position. Will Posada be able to catch? If he does, how effective will he be? How are we going to replace the enormous offensive production Giambi and Abreu gave us? What kind of player is Cano really? Will Jeter’s age start weighing on him? Is Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera capable of playing an acceptable CF on the Major Leagu level? Can Matsui or Damon play an entire season? Is Andy finally losing it? Will Moose be back, and if so can he do what he did in 2008? Are Hughes or Kennedy ready to contribute at the major league level? Where will Joba pitch, and can he be an effective starter? Will Mo be 100%? I could go on and on.
So yes, I think it is crucial that the Yanks get some top talent this winter if they plan to try to win next year.
I don’t disagree that they Yanks could try to rebuild, but if so they won’t win next year, or the year after. Plus, rebuilding is inherently a gamble. It fails more than it succeeds.
SJ44,
You’ve got a point, but you can argue the same thing about Alex. Yes, people say that we wouldn’t have made it to the postseason last year. But what happened once we got there?
I believe Tex is good, not $200M good. But good.
Based on how we’ve performed in the last 4 postseasons, anyone would take what Teixeira did in his first postseason appearance. He might not have rose to the occasion, but he certainly didn’t shrink from it, either.
SJ44,
If the Yankees make a trade for another CF this offseason what do they do with Brett Gardner? I’d prefer to have him on the bench but as you say young guys aren’t always very good on the bench. I figure he could be like Reggie Willits is for the Angels.
Fan mail from some flounder,
I agree, it was a really bad move. Delcarmen was incredibly wild for the first two pitches of that at-bat so calling a squeeze was really risky. Sure enough, the third pitch was way out of the zone and very hard to bunt.
Last year the Yankees signed Arod for 300 million and gave Mo and Posada huge contracts. Suddenly I’m supposed to believe that they’ll stop spending money? I’ll see it and then I’ll believe it.
I don’t want to hear about how bad the economy is because last year to economy was just as bad. Don’t believe me? Research the whole credit crisis issue. It started a LONG time before this past summer when the latest companies started going down.
Just because the everyday person now knows about the economic issues facing the world doesn’t mean this is something that’s come about overnight.
“Veteran guys, great leaders in the clubhouse, who took the young guys under their wings, and also contributed to the success of the team.”
SJ – Are you describing Giambi? I have been of the mindset that if he would accept a reduced role (and pay) that having him come off the bench would be valuable for the Yanks on and off the field. In my mind that is the best role suited for Jason at this stage in his career. Thoughts?
STEWMAN
I agree with most of your projected roster…except for one…Joba should be in the bullpen not the rotation…
Unfortunately the man will not be able to stay healthy…and even if he does stay healthy he will have a cap on his innings until 2010…so your idea of buidiling a “win now” team, with Tex and CC, doesn’t work with Joba in the rotation
There are a bunch of ways to build a team that don’t include spending hundreds of millions of dollars on free agents.
Its the “easy” way for fans to do it because its not their money and they aren’t privy to internal discussions.
What if the top guys in free agency don’t want to play in NY? What do you do then? Overpay them, or the next tier guys, to get them to play in NY? Certainly not a recommended strategy.
The Yankees #1 concern is to boost their starting pitching. It all starts there.
When you roll out guys each turn the players have confidence in, everything else takes care of itself.
AB’s are more patient. Managers are more aggressive, and the entire team plays better.
If they are going to use free agency intelligently this off-season, its to upgrade the rotation.
They can find a first baseman on the trade market. They can also improve their bench in the trade market.
Good starting pitchers are tougher to find in the trade market, unless you give up an awful lot of young talent in return.
Its why the Yankees best way of spending money in the off-season should come in the form of upgrading their rotation.
It is just silly to knock Texeira because Texas and Atlanta didn’t win. ARod didn’t help Texas win either, but he sure helped us in 2007.
The last I checked, Anaheim did make the playoffs and Tex was on the team. Anaheim didn’t lose to Boston because of Tex. Did you watch the games?
The notion that there are players who are “clutch” and “winners” will disappoint you almost every time. We need performance. Tex will give us that.
Patrick,
In addition: A gouund ball to the right side (which he did), or up the middle, or a fly ball almost anywhere scores the run. If not, you at least get another chance for a base hit. A suicide squeeze is called that for a reason. A risky, remarkably dumb decision, even if it succeeded. Sorry Mike, you’re fired…
Mike Mussina is BETTER than Josh Beckett (2006-08):
Wins Losses Winning % ERA
Beckett 48 28 .632 4.11
Mussina 46 26 .639 3.91
The economics of baseball and how teams adapt to it this year is going to be fascinating to watch.
League wide attendance was down 1% in 2008= less income and less revenue sharing. Viewership of the postseason games are down 20%= less revenue sharing. Both NY teams, who lead the league is revenue sharing, are building new stadiums and can apply stadium costs against revenue sharing owed= less revenue sharing.
The Yanks have enough money to upgrade the rotation and their offense both. They do not need Sabathia AND Burnett or Burnett AND Lowe or some other combination. One top FA pitcher will do it. They don’t need an all-star or hall of famer as the fifth starter.
“How many times does Jorge have to say it!! He doesn’t want to play first.”
Posada will play where he is told to play, and like it!
Could baseball be like football in that you need good offense, defense, and special teams (bullpen)?
You can’t overload one at the expense of others. The bullpen appears to be good and may even improve.
The trick is to balance the other two. Hard to believe they’ll go for 2 big FA pitchers at the cost of addressing the offensive issues.
We really need Andy and or Moose to come back next season.
Actually, from a baseball perspective, the economy is much worse this season.
Last year, teams didn’t have problems insuring their contracts. This year, they will experience those problems.
That trickles down to everything a team does with its finances.
If you can’t insure your deals, you have to carry the risk. That limits your credit lines, which hurt some teams (especially the small market teams) day to day cash flow.
Playoff ratings are down over 20%. For the first time in 10 years, attendance was down.
Selig pulled a “Goodell” last week.
Just as Goodell sent a memo to his teams, requesting they “hold the line” on spending because their projections show the league to be down revenue-wise this year, Selig did the same.
He warned teams about spending because of a soft market.
Its going to be an interesting off-season to see which teams follow his wishes.
pat,
Did you see that ESPN article I linked? The new stadiums could actually help the Mets and Yankees ride out any economic turmoil in the first few years. The thought being that it’s a “must see” when it’s new.
SJ, you have said several times that teams are going to have greater difficulty insuring contracts against injury this off-season, yet you have provided no evidence for that whatsoever.
I heard Cashman discuss the topic back in August, and he made no mention of it that I recall.
The insurance market for injured ballplayers and the credit market are totally different animals.
And, what’s Selig doing that’s any different than what he’s done before?
SJ44-
What do you think about a Manny signing? He unlike Tex (which I agree with you) does carry a team. Manny is a big reason the Dodgers are there and also was a big reason for the success of Ortiz. If you looked at Ortiz when he was on the Twins he was a different hitter. I know the Yanks need to get away from these older players but at the sametime we need players who can hit the ball with RISP and he can provide that.I could take a few years of Manny as I think he would make up for the production lost in Giambi and then some. He also hits good pitching which is something this team has forgotten how to do these last few years.
“What has Tex done to make any of his teams better? Didn’t do it in Texas. Didn’t do it in Atlanta and didn’t do it in Anaheim.”
What more can Teixeira do than hit and field well – which he does? Pitch out of the bullpen? Heal injuries?
The Texas teams that Teixeira played for – before he hit his prime, mind you – had such terrible pitching that Lou Gehrig couldn’t have led them to the playoffs.
Texas sent him to Atlanta and he proceeded to play some of the best baseball of his career. Again, what more could he have done?
The Angels got Teixeira to ensure making the playoffs. He hit .358/.449/.512 for them as they left the rest of their division in the dust.
In the first playoff appearance of his life, he went 7 for 15 with 4 walks! And you say he hasn’t done anything special in the playoffs! Amazing.
“Its more than just stat compiling. Its about having those moments when you carry a team when its needed, whether that’s in the regular season or post-season. He’s done neither.”
Yeah, instead he just hit the tar out of the ball both in the playoffs and for playoff-contending teams.
But we’re supposed to think he’s merely a good player because you didn’t see him because he doesn’t have a high SJ44 Special Moments Rating?
Good player? Absolutely. Great player….a player that takes your franchise to the next level? No.
He hasn’t done it yet. Why does anybody think he can do it now?
Please stop bashing AFraud…oops I mean Tex.
Cut from the same cloth. No?
And we’re going to get to the point that older players won’t get those “big” contracts anymore as the game gets younger and more athletic.
Even the one year contracts for good, veteran players are getting rarer as teams turn to the farm guys they’ve invested in so heavily.
SJ, will we see the day where the number of years that a team controls a player will be reduced?
And why am I hearing Sterling’s voice on Tampa’s highlights?
SJ44 doesn’t want Tex, so he’s going to make up any reason he can think of why the Yanks shouldn’t try to sign him.
And I just screwed up Teixeira’s stats. He went .358/.449/.632 for the Angels this season. He was unreal for them.
Sometimes a player can have an otherworldly season and it just isn’t enough to win a championship because of forces completely outside of his control, like a manager making a boneheaded decision to run a suicide squeeze. Teixeira even made a potentially game-saving catch in the 9th last night, but no one’s going to remember it because of the base hit that followed it.
The Yankees do not need to do anything — the team is destined to finish third or worse until the players at Tampa get too expensive for that team
The failures emanate from poor decisons made by the Brain Trust beginning in 2001 with the loss to the D’Backs – you can’r fix 8 years of signing the wrong free agents by signing Teixeira and Sabbathia — they are I argue too old to be the first steps —
- Posada, Matsui, Jeter, Abreu, Daman are declining from age and injury and soon Nady and ARod will decline as Teixeira hits the early 30’s and enters his decline
SO DO NOTHING until the aging ones are cleared – this has nothing to do with affection to these great players — you can’t trade them with their contracts — just see them off into their dotage – collect the TV and Game receipts and bank the $s for the future. This goes against the ACTIVIST GRAIN but —
Over the next 3 years see what you have in the minors and the youngsters we we saw last year
– let them work, be patient with their failures, but teach them (for that you need a coaching staff than does not include Meacham)
1B – POSADA – conservative view – he is done catching – he has 2 years at DH/1B supported by — maybe??– Matsui/Daman and backed up by Miranda/Ransom – or Praise the Lord if he can catch — then give Miranda a year suported by Matusi Posada Damon – there are options
FIND the 22 year old Teixeira on some minor league team — and trade Cano/Damon/IPK for him if you must
2B – Cano ($6M)
3B – ARod ($32M)
SS – Jeter ($20M)
C – You can keep IRod – if you can take a 2×4 to Mussina and Pettit so he is Full Time catcher – he can have 2yr with an option
LF – Damon ($13M)– you might trade – but I love him in the 1 hole and in the clubhouse (LF is not so bad)- he is a TEAM guy and a stand up guy
RF – Nady ($5M)
CF – Gardner ($.5M)
DH – Matsui ($13M)
BN – Molina ($2M)
BN – Ransom ($.650M)
BN – Christian ($.5M)Cabrerra is better than Christian – but maybe more tradeable for something or in some pacakge
BN – Miranda ($.5M)
SP – Wang ($4.6M)
SP – IPK/ACEVES/COX/RASNER – anyone who washes up on shore allows yu to keep aANDY 1/2 years and Moose 3 – on his way to 16 wins ayear and HOF
SP – Pettite/Moose ($20M)
SP – Joba ($.825M)
SP – Hughes ($.5M)
RP – Mo ($15M)
RP – Marte ($6M)
RP – Bruney ($1M)
RP – Coke ($.5M)(develop him as a starter)
RP – Aceves ($.5M)
RP – Melancon ($.425M)
RP – Robertson ($.5M)
If you use ACEVES and or Cox as straters you need to add here – there are options
mel, the number of top young FA’s are decreasing because teams are signing their young players to long term deals, and so there are fewer of them.
There’s no evidence I see teams are turning against long term contracts as a general rule.
cashman is good friends with theo i believe for a reason.i think he picked his brains and look to see cashman build in a similar manner that the red sox do.spend a lot of money on player developement,make a trade if it makes sense and keep the kids on the major league level.
if you look at the red sox they kept ells,pedroia,lester,buchholz,pap,youk and most of the other players that are making noise and either close or on the team.they traded the ones that do not fit into their plans or trade for a becket who they asbsolutely needed to get them over the hump and compete with the yankees wich it did.
they dictate the terms of a contract and almost never sign a player for too much and let them go before they get too old.
it is a constant revolving door of developing players to replace aging ones,trading once in a while for the right player,letting aging players go at the right time,signing one year stopgap players that contribute all while spending heavily in player developement wich makes all of the above happen.
they are a fine tuned machine right now with tons of minor league talent.it hurts me to admit this but it is true.their time is now and they are capitalizing on it.their time will end it always does.
i just hope the yankees get wise and build a nice starting rotation and farm system,everything flows from there.
Virginia Yankee,
So how are the Yanks going to keep the new stadium full and maintain their ticket prices while they follow your plan?
Plus, finding the 22 year old Texira in the minors is a lot easier said than done.
Rebuilding is very risky. It usually doesn’t work. Plus, has the Yankee draft track record given you any confidence they can identify and acquire top young potential?
I’m not sold.
WYH,
I predict you’ll see the end of that long, last big contract to guys in their 30’s. Like Damon, Abreu, Posada if he were on another team.
The game is getting younger and athletic. Pretty soon you won’t see players over 35, only the greats like Alex.
Virginia – I disagree with you on a lot of points there, most on the Yanks being unable to win until TB gets too expensive. Wait until TB realizes that a bullpen’s performance can fluctuate, that their lineup isn’t close to the talent of the big boys, and that their starting pitching has hiccups/injuries.
The Yanks were in this thing at the end of the year after losing their 19-game winner, Joba being juggled with injury/bullpen, Posada being lost for practically the whole season, a gigantic slump and a million LHP with A-Rod out for 3-weeks, random bullpen injuries throughout the year…
The Yanks had a lot going against them this year and I can, as I do every year, see them competing next year.
“Especially with the economy in the condition its in, I don’t expect the Yankees to be wallpapering MLB with checks.”
with all the goldman sachs alumni in control of the bailout money, i think the yankees should be thinking green for wallpaper choice.
Not sure I’m buying the Angels are overrated theory. Tough series for them, in which they pitched very well but couldn’t quite get the big hit when it was needed. Those were four games which truly could have gone either way. Look at the scores of the games heading into the 9th inning:
Game 1 = 2-1 Boston
Game 2 = 5-5
Game 3 = 4-4
Game 4 = 2-2
Here is my (hopefully) last word about Teixeira.
I am NOT advocating giving him more than 6 years or something like $200 million. He is not a “get him at any cost” player.
He is, however, one of the best first basemen in baseball, both as a hitter and fielder. He is relatively young and stays healthy. He has no red flags concerning character or focus. He would fill the void left by the sure-to-be-gone Giambi. We have no alternatives for the position who are anywhere near as good as he.
For these reasons, he would be a good signing unless other teams drive his contract to 8-10 years.
Not signing CC and Tex to 7 year contracts would be the correct thing to do.
But fan expecations, owners’ philosophy, and market conditions for those kinds of players really don’t leave the Yankees much choice.
As long as the fans and owners are insatiable, the Yankees will spend, spend, spend.
So how are the Yanks going to keep the new stadium full and maintain their ticket prices while they follow your plan?
______________________
a) its a new stadium…even Pittsburgh could fill their new stadium and they were in last place
b) its has gold lettering on the outside…and latrines that clean your bum (j/p, but it would be cool if they did)
c) we still have a-rod, jeter, posada, Mo
The real Yankee fans understand that we could either go the 80’s route or the 89-94′ route (where we don’t make the playoffs but get younger and hungrier in the process)….only spoiled fans who hopped on the bandwagon think that the Yankees have to outspend everyone to get the supposedly best players
It has nothing to do with what I want. I don’t work for the Yankees.
I’m not making anything up wave. I don’t think they will be huge players for Tex if the numbers are 6+ years at 20+ million per year. You do. Let’s agree to disagree.
It has to do with what the Yankees want to do and there are numerous examples of them saying (and doing for that matter) things will be done differently than they have in the past.
I don’t think you will see them handing out long term (5 or 6 or more years) deals to free agents.
I think they will offer high AAV’s with fewer years.
Their sales pitch will be simple. You (the player) will be among the highest paid players in the game. That makes the Union, which plays a big role in free agency, very happy.
For some of the FA’s, that will also allow them one more go’round in free agency.
I believe that will be their strategy.
Will it work? Time will tell.
SJ, no problem. I do hope for the Yanks’ sake they sign anybody they do sign for less than I believe they will end up signing them for.
“they are a fine tuned machine right now with tons of minor league talent.”
i wouldn’t say any team that only fished 6 games ahead of the yankees this year is a fine tuned machine.
the red sox have had their little run because cashman was pennywise and dollar dumb. he went with a younger and cheaper youth plan that cost the yankees 30-50 million of playoff money.
i haven’t seen anyone talk or wrote about it, but how do the yankees let themselves lose this kind of money?
oh, right i forgot that goldman sachs ownership connection.
a great pitching staff allows a team to be more patient with the kids,covers for a lot of mistakes.
i think the yankees at all costs should build a nice relatively young staff that keeps them in every game while using hughes,kennedy,aceves as debth.this will make every other decision easier.
their bullpen already looks to be one of the best if not the best and deepest in the majors,this is one saving grace.
Is anybody able to explain to me why Scott Shields was pitcing with the Angels season on the line last night?
Also please explain why the suicide squeeze with 1 out?
Earth calling Scosia. Your team is now eliminated!
i think the yankees at all costs should build a nice relatively young staff that keeps them in every game while using hughes,kennedy,aceves as debth.this will make every other decision easier.
How about this:
Wang
Burnett (3yr/15mil)
Meche (acquire via trade)
Mussina/Pettite (2yr/10mil)
Hughes/Aceves
You notice that there is no CC or Joba (bullpen) in there
SJ,
Again I agree with you on the idea of signing players to shorter deals with higher annual salaries, but doesn’t this also make it tougher to support your expectations of controlling the payroll?
I also thought I remembered you saying that there’s an importance in going after the RIGHT FIT free agents. I personally think both Teixeira and CC fit this bill. If the Yankees can find the right trade partner to bring in a great first baseman then I’m all for that as well. I just think it’s tough to say the Yankees cannot bring in both Tex & CC while still sticking to a plan that revolves around infusing their own farm players.
***Side note: I am in no way saying that I think the Yankees are a lock to sign Tex & CC, that’s the player’s decision to make.
Tampa is a “for real” team, but let’s not hand them the division title in perpetuity just yet. The games do still have to be played. The AL East is just going to be tougher for the next several years. There will be at least 3 teams fighting it out, which means you could end up in 3rd place in that division while at the same time being the 3rd best team in baseball and missing the playoffs. Could happen.
It means the Yankees have to play better fundamental baseball and they have to play it from day one.
randy l :
is is not as simple as you make it sound.
i am sure the yankees every year feel like they have the right team to win it all.it is easy to look back and critisize but hard to predict the future.
i believe the pitching staff put pressure on the offense in addition to key injuries.
are you advovating taking the payroll up to 240 or 250 million at a 40 percent luxury tax over the cap allowed to capture the extra 30-50 million with no guarantees.
it is not like the yankees had options to get any player they choose without losing prospects.
the right plan takes building a team smartly,starting with pitching and being solid up the middle.everything flows from there.
the yankees have most of their money tied up in position players that maxxed out their payroll and limited their ability to make any quick drastic changes.
they were close.5 games or so off of last years pace.i think injuries,pitching and relying on 2 starting pitchers at the same time was their demise.they need to build a rotation excluding the kids until they force their way into the lineup like lester,joba,pedroia and others.
“And I just screwed up Teixeira’s stats. He went .358/.449/.632 for the Angels this season. He was unreal for them.”
Which is why I believe LAA will try to keep him. With K-Rod surely gone, they will have the money to do it.
I said this before – the Yankees may not get CC or Texeira. People need to prepare themselves for that because it COULD happen.
“There will be at least 3 teams fighting it out, which means you could end up in 3rd place in that division while at the same time being the 3rd best team in baseball and missing the playoffs. Could happen.”
Looks like you are forgetting about TOR, who are only a few pieces away from being a serious contender.
Boy there’s a lot of craziness out there it’s hard to know where to begin.
No, the Yanees aren’t going to just sit still and get worse and worse until all long term contracts expire. They finished third in a division that produced BOTH teams for the ALCS and did so by a handful of games. they are a half dozen wins from the post season, not light years
I know it’s hard to define “great” versus “good” to everyeon’s agreement, but Teixiera is one of the three best all around 1B in baseball (behind Pujols and Berkman). If you are one of the three best at your position.. you are GREAT in my book.
Pitching is job one, but going from a horrible defensive 1B to an oustatanding defensive 1B is also a way to improve pitching and defense. Teixiera will cost less than Giambi last year.
Since mid summer I have repeatedly taken the stance that Teixiera and CC are both needed. Sure, they’ll cost $ 40-45 M a year or so, but they are great players in their prime which are the only FA worth major contracts.
I keep asking people to stop referring to Posada as a possible 1B if his shoulder doesn’t come around. A 1B who can’t throw? Just give it up already. Jorge is a catcher or a DH… that’s it!
To me CF is the last thing to be “fixed”. Not only is it the position where the most advanced prospect plays, but they can survive with Gardner/Cabrera if needed. Starting pitcher, then 1B, then the other stuff
Pete has an absurdly low opinion of Cane, but a MLB scout told me yesterday the rest of the teams hope he’s available. A Cano/Kemp based trade makes sense in many ways, but would leave the Dodgers lineup too LH.
“Looks like you are forgetting about TOR, who are only a few pieces away from being a serious contender.”
That sentence can be written every year. But, unfortuantely for Blue Jay fans, a few pieces away is a long, long distance.
Laura,
The Angels will absolutely try to keep Teixeira. They wouldn’t have traded Kotchman if they weren’t so inclined. They will likely be the Yankees’ main competitor for Teixeira. And if they give him an absurd contract, the Yankees won’t counter with an even crazier contract.
I think there is almost zero chance the Yankees will get CC. SJ44 set forth the reasons pretty well. Signing a pitcher to a long-term, big money deal is a giant gamble that almost never works out well, and goes against everything the team is working toward right now.
If the Yankees hand out a huge FA contract, it will be to Teixeira. Otherwise they will shore up the rotation with lower-profile FAs who will agree to shorter deals for more money per year (I agree with SJ44 completely here).
SJ44,
I probably agree with you 97 percent of the time when I read your posts but I just don’t understand your feelings on Tex when you say he’s not a winning player.
He is a sensational player, a top-tier first baseman, better than Youkilis, who is having a career year and who’s touted as an MVP candidate and better than Morneau, who is getting the same rub. Tex has a .324 average with RISP.
It’s easy to say someone like Youkilis is a “winner” when he’s on a team that has won a World Series. Does anyone really believe the Red Sox wouldn’t have one the Series last year had Tex been at first? I didn’t think so.
How many first basemen can you name you’d rather have than Tex? Obviously Pujols and Berkman. But then who else is on that list. Howard, tons of home runs, but also tons of strikeouts, a low .OBP, and terrible defense. Same case with Fielder, who hacks at everything that’s thrown to him.
Tex was sensational after he was traded to the Angels. The only reason more wasn’t made about his performance was because he the Angels had already locked up the division. He was similarly great after he was traded to Atlanta last year where he hit 17 home runs in 54 games for them.
He went 7 for 15 in the series with Boston and 4 walks. He was by far their most patient hitter. And if Shields had gotten out of that last inning, Tex could have saved the series with that great catch.
Boston pitched him more carefully than anyone in the Angels lineup, including Vlad. They knew he was easily their best hitter. Should he really be penalized for not hitting a home run in four games?
Look, if Tex requires an 8 year deal or more, than the Yankees should walk away. But a 6 or 7 year deal for him, where you can pencil in 30 HR and 100 RBIs and a .400 OBP, plus gold glove caliber defense into the lineup, makes all the sense in the world.
He is a difference making player, and would fill a huge chasm for the Yankees right now. Who do you stick over there? Damon or Matsui, who’s never played the position? Posada, a 37-year old catcher with a bad shoulder? Juan Miranda? Shelly Duncan? Nonsense. None of those options would help the team, only further hurt the team both offensively and defensively.
Absolutely, if the team signs Tex it takes them out of the running for C.C. But the Yanks could sign Derek Lowe – a proven playoff performer and a durable,quality innings eater to a three or four year deal for less money.
Lowe may not be C.C., but he certainly has a better track record in the post season than Sabbathia.
As I believe Pete said recently, when was the last time a long term deal for a pitcher worked out? Mike Mussina and …
Sign Tex and Lowe, and hope that Hughes and Kennedy and pitchers in the system such as McCallister, Betances and Brackman continue to develop.
Sign Tex and put Matsui at DH, Damon in LF and a more palatable defensive option in CF, whether it be Gardner or someone obtained in a trade.
86w183,
Thank you!
Even somebody like Scott Boras will now realize that the economy will affect what he can demand is now different than in past years.
Selig has tooted his horn for years about how vibrant and economically stable baseball has been but knows only so much can be spread around with the sports dollar.
If projections are what we’ve been told they’ll be, teams and agents will now have to be concerned what the wallets of fans can endure and spend accordingly. Far more than the majority of fans will find themselves holding the line by using priorities and cutting corners.
“That sentence can be written every year. But, unfortuantely for Blue Jay fans, a few pieces away is a long, long distance.”
Yeah, it does seem like they are always just a few pieces away. Truthfully, TOR ownership should be ashamed of themselves. With the pitching that they have (or had once AJ leaves), they should have done a heck of a lot better than they did. Can you imagine how well the Yankees would have done with Halladay and Burnett going every five days?
Atlanta with Tex on the team was in contention for the wildcare before trading him away. Put his numbers together from LA and Atl and hes an MVP canidate. Plus his defense is astounding. The plays he made during the sox series were great. Especially the game saver (until the next hitter anyway) last night on kotsay.
Not saying the yanks should do the blank check with him, but to say that he isn’t a great player because his impact on teams isn’t great is ridiculous. Baseball is as individual as a team sport can get. Everything in baseball is attributed a stat, and tex’s stats are very impressive.
I haven’t heard any reports of say Tex being a clubhouse killer or anything, and as far as I’m concerned hitting .500 in the postseason against the bosox pitching is good enough for me. Plus he had a clutch at bat last night. Down 2-0 in the 8th he was the leadoff man and he worked a 3-2 count against okajima and took a changeup low for ball four. Definitely not saying he is the key to the yankee woes but look at tampa they got better by shoring up their defense and their pitching. By signing Tex you replace the offensive stats given by giambi and abreu (if he leaves) and you get a legit gold glove first baseman. I can’t even count how many times i wished that we had Dougy M this year.
Point is saying that Tex isn’t that important to a team is unfair. He’s only had one real chance to perform on the big stage and he batted .500.
Laura -
No, I didn’t forget about Toronto. I said “at least” three teams. I didn’t go for the 4th, based on Burnett possibly leaving Toronto, but I would certainly consider them in the mix.
Good Afternoon people ! yes I’m still not in favor of getting Teixeira.
Actually, I read a great book recently about baseball strategy, broken down by the numbers. It’s called “The Book on the Book” by Bill Felber (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Lan.....312332645); and Bill actually concludes that it is advantageous to be more aggressive early in the count because that is when the majority of “good” strikes are thrown (strikes that are put in play for basehits) and more patient late in the count. Certainly, neither I nor Felber would advocate undisciplined hitters hacking away at whatever is thrown their way on the first or second pitch; but for more experienced, disciplined hitters, Felber definitely makes a case for being aggressive early in the count. While I recognize his excellent eye and appreciate his stellar OBP year after year, I’ve actually lamented many many times that Giambi doesn’t cut at more meatballs (pun intenteded, being that the Big G is the ultimate meatball) earlier in the count–balls that he can drive. I can’t argue with his eye or his OBP, but I honestly think his power numbers could have been better had he taken that approach, without a significant decline in OBP, if any. A homerun or a double will always be more valuable than a walk.
How about this:
Wang
Burnett (3yr/15mil)
Meche (acquire via trade)
Mussina/Pettite (2yr/10mil)
Hughes/Aceves
You notice that there is no CC or Joba (bullpen) in there
it wouldn’t kill them to get sabathia as long as it isn’t a 7 yera deal.if it was 4 or 5 years ,more money per year then they probably should do it but for 7 years / 140-161 million it probably is a bad idea but if money is to be spent it might be smart to do it on pitching.
i would love it if the yankees traded a package of cano and prospects for billingsley or a pitcher like him,obviously before his stock rose recently.
they need to aquire a pitcher like that via trade before he becomes a huge name.i am not sure exactly wich ones are available but research need to be done.
their are many pitchers that are close to taking off that could be aquired.it takes knowing wich ones they are.
if the yankees can sign a free agent pitcher or two and trade for ONE pitcher who might take off,someone like guthrie,Dustin McGowan,John Danks,Fausto Carmona,Armando Galarraga with wang,joba they should be headed in the right direction.
“I said “at least†three teams.”
Sorry, Doreen. I didn’t see the “at least”. I’m reading the blog at work so I’m essentially skimming posts between looking over my shoulder to see if my boss is coming.
“Meche (acquire via trade)”
Why would we want Gil Meche?
Atlanta with Tex on the team was in contention for the wildcare before trading him away.
Before he was dealt they fell 10 games out of 1st place. That team lost thier position because Chipper Jones was hurt. Teix was there and couldn’t do it on the road, they were no where near WC contention.
Laura, because he’s a good pitcher
The Royals wouldn’t trade him to us though. Too much value for money, and the Royals supposedly want to position themselves to make a run.
Why would we want Gil Meche?
A) Because we could get him
B) Because he’s 30
C) Because out rotation looks like Wang,_,_,_,_
D) Because he’s from LA…and we like gators
E) Because it’s the type of outside the box thinking that the yankees used to do (ala Key & Wells)
Laura, because he’s a good pitcher
The Royals wouldn’t trade him to us though. Too much value for money, and the Royals supposedly want to position themselves to make a run.
If you say Robi jump off a bridge.
Doreen
October 7th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Tampa is a “for real†team, but let’s not hand them the division title in perpetuity just yet. The games do still have to be played. The AL East is just going to be tougher for the next several years. There will be at least 3 teams fighting it out, which means you could end up in 3rd place in that division while at the same time being the 3rd best team in baseball and missing the playoffs. Could happen.
It means the Yankees have to play better fundamental baseball and they have to play it from day one.
for teams like tampa we have seen it dozens of times.
when their players start getting better and older they will command big bucks and tampa will not keep them.they will be traded for prospects and they won’t get the better picks now that their record is this good.cleveland,marlins,oakland,arizona,colorado are the biggest examples.
“Laura, because he’s a good pitcher”
Hmmm. Perhaps I haven’t been paying attention, but I’ve never been too impressed with him when he pitches against us. Maybe it’s the 4+ ERA.
Brandon, not a chance.
I’m one of the people who believe that the Yankees should only trade Cano if an elite player comes back in return. Meche is not near that category.
You know who I wish we could get on the coaching staff?
Paul Oneal.
The only people who seriously want us to trade Cano are panic button fans and the other 29 teams in the league.
bru -
I think let’s see what happens to Tampa’s attendance next season if they win at least the League Championship.
If they do not draw considerably more than they did this season, I believe you’ll be proven correct.
I sometimes think that only the Yankees and Red Sox see the point of winning year after year after year – and I think the Red Sox felt this way BEFORE they actually won a World Series, because of their competition/rivalry with the Yankees over time. It certainly seems as though for other franchises it’s enough to get to/win the World Series every once in a while to validate their existence. And then there’s the Cubs.
Just checking Jeremy. We’re the Robi police over here some people don’t like it but I wouldn’t deal him unless that name coming back is Lincecum, Volquez or Liriano (No not even for Cain).
Hmmm. Perhaps I haven’t been paying attention, but I’ve never been too impressed with him when he pitches against us. Maybe it’s the 4+ ERA.
Actually, his ERA the last two years was 3.67 and 3.98…
I have a better idea…let’s sign CC for 700 Billion dollars (to bailout the rotation)…and then clone him 4 times…so each one of our starters has a sub 3 era
DEPTH!!!
I didn’t see the one game Meche pitched against us this year, but he went 6 innings and let up 1 run on 6 hits. For the last two years he has pitched over 210 innings with a sub-4 ERA. Any team would want him in its rotation.
Meche is exactly the kind of pitcher the Yankees should look for this offseason. Above average but not overhyped, and available for much more team-friendly contracts than the bigger names.
The fact the Royals already signed him to one of those contracts is exactly why he will be unavailable to us.
Paul O’Neill – unless he has a change of heart with regard to his family time, I don’t think he’d be a coach. Moreover, I’m not sure he’d make a good coach. Passion as a player doesn’t always translate to being able to teach/motivate others. It certainly wouldn’t necessarily lead to a team full of O’Neills.
I’m saying I don’t know whether – not he wouldn’t – make a good coach. Just for clarity.
Jermey
You get it….above average but not overhyped
Yeah, the time to get Meche (or Lilly) was 2 years ago.
“Actually, his ERA the last two years was 3.67 and 3.98…”
His player page listed his career ERA over 4. That’s what I was quoting.
Who did we get instead?
Oh Kei Igawa…that’s right
Meche was available along with Lilly 2 yrs ago for about 50 million.
Cashman went with Igawa instead.
I wonder what Cash’s big blunder will be this year?
“I wonder what Cash’s big blunder will be this year?”
I guess the people on this board don’t make mistakes on their jobs. Must be nice to be perfect.
YANKS IN 2010
October 7th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Hmmm. Perhaps I haven’t been paying attention, but I’ve never been too impressed with him when he pitches against us. Maybe it’s the 4+ ERA.
Actually, his ERA the last two years was 3.67 and 3.98…
I have a better idea…let’s sign CC for 700 Billion dollars (to bailout the rotation)…and then clone him 4 times…so each one of our starters has a sub 3 era
DEPTH!!!
i hate to say it but YANKS IN 2010 is 100 percent right.teams that are great have debth and the yankees always did well with a 5 deep rotation of solid pitchers,nothing more.
we see it all the time when teams sign that one big ace for millions it NEVER works out.one ace followed by 4 solid starters is enough and don’t rely on the kids.use them for more debth.
a rotation of wang,joba,mussina,meche,lowe might get it done with hughes,aceves and others for added debth. i would love for them to get a Armando Galarraga,Jair Jurrjens or a similar young pitcher also.
I wonder what Cash’s big blunder will be this year?
Oh pleeeeease, no onewanted that guy at 50 million , don’t even go there because NY, and every other big city was laughing at KC for paying so much $$$ for Gil Meche, has he swayed opinion nope not really because of him chances are Oli Perez recieves 12 – 15 million per yr. no one really gave a damn about Meche. You want to talk blunder talk IPK for Harden that was an on the table possibility, there are other deals but Meche isn’t one.
One thing is for certain,,1B cost this team easily 8-10 games this season defensely…..Now you have a 28 year old switch hitting .300 hitter who hits 30 HR’S, drives inb 100, & is a Gold Glover….As I stated last night, he’s a switch hitting Tino…He covers that postion for the next 5 years…..He’s the 2nd best 1B in baseball….I think you try to fit him into your budget somehow…I watched him almost every night once he arrived here in Anaheim, he’s only going to get better…This was his first October baseball, and he looked very comfortable…..Yes they need at least one starter..They will spend the money, at what quanity is yet to be seen…They will lose more money than Texeria’s salary if the New Yankee Stadium is dark next October……
Pat M,
LOL. You state your case very well.
I can’t believe that Teixeira’s such a polarizing figure. He’s reaching Alex territory.
Does that mean he’s entering Alex & Jeter territory where people want to knock him down?
I make mistakes all the time. Just not the kind that effects my company for years. Those kind of mistakes usually get you fired. Somehow in NY baseball land they get you new contracts.
The Yanks just miseed the playoffs and have exactly 1 surefire starter for next season. That’s a big problem. And now everybody’s screaming to spend a fortune to try and fix that problem.
Cash/Omar are back because the alternatives were worse.
This should be interesting Kim Jones, Francesa and Chris Carlin.
A few things…
I think it’s time Mike Scioscia stop getting the praise as a managerial genius. That garbage he pulled in the top of the 9th last night…if a Yankee manager did that in Boston at that point in the series, the press and the fans would eviscerate him.
On to Yankee things — This whole idea that the Yankees are going to not give out long term contracts to talented free agents is hogwash.
If you don’t commit the years and money to young guys, you will lose them and you’ll end up being forced to sign 35 year old free agents who are looking for that one last 3 year deal to take them through the decline to retirement.
That’s the only players that will take a short term deal. Old players and platoon players/back end of the rotation pitchers are the only ones who will consider short term deals.
Now, I do not think for a second that the off season plan is to add old players.
Cashman has been against giving that kind of contract out to that kind of player and the only way you mitigate that situation is to lock up premium young free agent talent and go where the market is going for them.
The only other option to improve the team is through trades and we already know Cashman hates trading his young talent. The mere idea that he’s actually willing to trade Hughes who he’s staked his reputation to as GM is silly.
So how will he improve the team if he doesn’t commit long term high money deal to talented free agents when other teams will be willing to do so?
CC, Tex and AJ will not be coming here for a high annual avg salary and short years because another organization will give them long term security they deserve in this market.
If the Yankees are going to say “we’ll go 3-4 years and that’s it” then we’ll be seeing Rasner pitching in the 3 spot next season.
Personally, I sign CC and AJ if they want to come here and go get a less expensive 1b through a trade by trading some of our excess RH bullpen talent.
I would be fine with Tex, but I also think he’s a bit of a corporate type and this team doesn’t need anymore corporate types — we need a little more fire and emotion on the field. I’ll sacrifice numbers for a more spiritual leader at a position at this point.
mel
Joel Sherman’s column in the NY Post this morning has already set Tex up to be Alex-The Sequel in Yankee fans eyes.
Sherman is finally right, because that’s how I’ve seen Teix for some yrs. now.
The Yankees starters ERA was 4.58 and the starters averaged 5.5 innings per start. Thats awful.
Man last night was painful. Lackey’s my boy though haha. These comments from the ESPN article are hilarious:
“It’s way different than last year,” said Lackey, who was 0-1 with a 2.63 ERA in two starts this postseason. “We are way better than they are. We lost to a team not as good as us.”
Then Lackey was asked to describe the feeling in the clubhouse, and without hesitation and with clear irritation, he shot back, “Like I want to throw somebody through a wall.”
“[On Sunday] they scored on a pop fly they called a hit, which is a joke,” said Lackey, referring to a popup that was misplayed into three runs. “[On Monday], they score on a broken-bat ground ball and a fly ball anywhere else in America [except in Fenway Park]. And [Pedroia's] fist-pumping on second like he did something great.”
Why doesn’t Francesa just become a Red Sox fan? He seems to worship them.
Jesus, can’t believe we are arguing Tex is the “corporate type.” He is the perfect player for us right now (aside from getting 1 SP).
can someone please being up to Mike and Co that one of the factors that contributed to the Red Sox becoming what they are is that they did not make the playoffs and thus they have to change the way they worked
“You want to talk blunder talk IPK for Harden that was an on the table possibility, there are other deals but Meche isn’t one.”
on what table? Billy Beane would have NEVER traded Rich Harden for IPK.
Meche wouldnt be a bad pickup. KC basically said everyone but Soria, and another player or two, are basically available…
i think it was just said, and i’ll second the notion… ive become more of a believer in depth than Ace. at this point, id rather see $140 million, if its going to be spent or put in the budget, split amongst two or three pitchers that may not be #1’s, but can pitch to a 3.5-4.5 ERA and give 200 innings.
and i believe in spending more to bring in Teixeira than in bringing Sabathia to the Bronx, i think, too. at least thats where i’m leaning right now. get back to me in a couple weeks.
Why doesn’t Francesa just become a Red Sox fan? He seems to worship them.
He’s voicing how the bubble gum baseball card lineup is a joke compared to “the system” the Red Sox are building. Diet Coke literally isn’t overstepping himself today.
This is shapping up the be the worst show in the history of WFAN. You can tell Chris and Kim would rather talk football or playoffs in general rather than listening to Fatcessa rant about the Yankees rebuilding process.
Francessa isin’t saying anything untrue.
Give the Diet Coke bandit credit, he is basically telling us we need to stay away from the paychecks and get younger and find role players.
Though he is really over exaggerating our ‘dislike’ for the Rays. I was actually rooting for them, I don’t care if they win. If its them or Boston/LAD, give me Tampa without thinking.
News flash to Francesa that’s what the Yankees are trying to do. Developing players don’t happen over night.
Mike what’s it both ways bring up young players and have them do well right away. When most times it doesn’t work like that.
Mike is so unlistenable. He keeps carrying on how this is a nightmare for the Yankees.
It is ridiculous to say that the Rays and Sawx success last night is bad for the Yankees – as if a ChiSox World Series win would make missing the playoff easier to stomach?
Only insecure morons fixate on this stuff. It is just an opportunity to poke the franchise. The Yanks should be depressed b/c they came up short and underachieved. The eventual winner doesn’t matter.
i think it was just said, and i’ll second the notion… ive become more of a believer in depth than Ace. at this point, id rather see $140 million, if its going to be spent or put in the budget, split amongst two or three pitchers that may not be #1’s, but can pitch to a 3.5-4.5 ERA and give 200 innings.
Basically what you are expressing is a desire for diversification of risk…couldn’t agree more
Risk= you spend 150 Million on CC and he goes down for a year…you can basically fold the season
Divserifiaction of risk= you have 3 guys signed to 50 million dollar contracts…one guy goes down…you pick up the pieces
This show is going to be a disaster. Mike wants to do all the talking and he has 2 guests who want nothing to do with talking about baseball.
Nobody will get enough mic time, they will merely be in the background.
How did they think this 3 person setup would work?
and i believe in spending more to bring in Teixeira than in bringing Sabathia to the Bronx, i think, too. at least thats where i’m leaning right now. get back to me in a couple weeks.
You gotta be stupid to say that ! CC Sabathia carried 2 teams into the playoffs, Teixeira hasn’t done that. You literally get a streak stopper in CC, there aren’t SP like him around the league there just aren’t. CC >> Teixeira.
Oh and w/ Gil Meche he was overpaid when that contract went to him, he was paid as high as a Andy Pettitte in his prime, and he was nowhere near that.
Give the Diet Coke bandit credit, he is basically telling us we need to stay away from the paychecks and get younger and find role players.
Losing Mad Dog bought him some sense finally.
“The Yanks should be depressed b/c they came up short and underachieved. The eventual winner doesn’t matter.”
In theory, that’s true. However, for the fans, BOS winning would be very hard to take.
Sounds like the Red Sox are all about making enemies everywhere!
Tampa has no love lost for them. Now the Angels – and of course, the Yankees (well, at least us fans –
). Surely there are other teams that can’t stomach that team, either. What is it about them? It’s not just the winning. There’s a “look” about that team – they celebrate like they’ve never done it before (which gets old fast) and some of them even look alike. Seriously. Jason Bay looks like Becket, looks like Pedroia, looks like Papelbon.
Well, whatever. I’m pulling for Tampa Bay.
Since when do we hate the Rays that much? What exactly are they threatening us for? They are an expansion team playing in a small market. Aside from being a thorn in our side in the division, they are harmless.
It’s not like they are going to be competing with us in the FA market, in attendance, for marketing opportunities, for merchandise sales etc. They are not the new Red Sox.
Where is this hatred for Tampa coming from? Mike makes it sound like they are the Sox now.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3630831
Good news. Mo can begin throwing a month before ST.
“Mike is so unlistenable. He keeps carrying on how this is a nightmare for the Yankees.”
Yeah, the way he is talking you would think that the Yankees were not even in the same league as these two teams.
The Yankees had a winning record against the two at 20-16 and had the fourth best record in the league.
Just a little tidbit, the Tigers were supposed to be the best team in the league, Seattle had a great team, as well as the Indians.
Oh geez. Of course I wasn’t happy that we didn’t make the playoffs. But I think a good majority of Yankee fans realize that we were hit hard by injuries, and played in a very competitive AL East. He forgets we lost the clubhouse leader for most of the season, and when we did have him, he was playing hurt.
He is making me ill.
BOS or LAD winning would be a nightmare.
I love how Fatcessa says casually “2006 was an off year for the Red Sawx” but won’t recognize 2008 was an offyear for the Yanks.
I guess Mike wants us to get rid of Mo, Jeter, you know they were on the roster in 2000.
I like the Rays. Mike’s playing it up with the hating on the Rays.
“Joba is the real deal, Hughes has nothing to base it on (him being great)” – Mike
Sad but true.
“I think it’s time Mike Scioscia stop getting the praise as a managerial genius. That garbage he pulled in the top of the 9th last night”
the angels did win 100 games with only a+68 run differential by playing that kind of baseball.
i think if the playoffs were a best of 7 or 9 with no days off, you’d see the angels beat the red sox.
“and every other big city was laughing at KC for paying so much $$$ for Gil Meche”
Laughing because KC had no chance regardless of who they signed. KC signing Meche is like accesorizing your KMart suit with a nice Tag Heuer.
Meche was the safe bet albeit slightly expensive 2 yrs back. Now he’s an absolute bargain.
Where is this hatred for Tampa coming from? Mike makes it sound like they are the Sox now.
since this
P.S. WE HAVEN’T DEVELOPED PLAYERS BECAUSE EVERY DEADLINE THEY WANT TO DEAL EVERY FREAKING YOUNGSTER.
Why did Mike bring in 2 football people to talk Yankees off-season? You can tell Kim and Carlin are bored already, they want nothing to do with this show.
“In theory, that’s true. However, for the fans, BOS winning would be very hard to take.”
I was going to argue with this, and then I thought about Paplebon prancing around the mound and I have to admit that you’re right. I hate those guys.
Doesn’t he realize what the Yankees are trying to do?! Why is he ignoreing that??
Oh and we hate the Dodgers so much, but lets trade our .300 plus hitter to them so he can return to form. Okay. Where do they get these people from?
I don’t tune in to Francesa anymore. He was bad enough with Doggy to call him on his pomposity.
But if he’s saying this post-season is a nightmare for the Yankees, that’s a valid point. How could it have turned out more annoying? Tampa (Steinbrennerville), Boston (biggest rival), LA (new home of Torre/Mattingly/Bowa) all in the playoffs when NYY is already on the golf course, and just to rub it in Torre did it by sweeping Piniella, the guy they were always threatening him with …
Okay, maybe not a nightmare. But at least a bad bout of dyspepsia.
I think Aj Burnett will be a Yankee
is Kim Jones finally making some sense or foreseeing the future?
Cano for Andre Ethier?
Signing CC, Tex, and Burnett? (pipe dream)
Awful awful show.
Well, I was going to tune in to see Kim Jones, but after reading your posts, I’ve decided to spare myself the agita of listening to Francessa spouting hyperbole.
If the Yankees had a losing record or finished 4th or last place, I could see saying how the season was a total bust. It was not a good season, not by any stretch of the imagination – so many things went awry and a few costly mistakes were made – but they were not terrible, awful. Unsatisfying – yes. A bust? No.
Also, the Red Sox won because the stupid Angels got the disease that afflicted the Yankees almost all season – RISPitis. They had so many opportunities they didn’t capitalize on, letting Boston’s pitchers off the hook early in the games. And, let’s face it, Boston got what they needed when they needed it.
mike is right, we need CC to even be in the conversation next year for the playoffs
The post season is a nightmare for him. He’s attempting to speak for all Yankee fans.
We all knew the Sox was going to beat the Angles. And most Yankee fans don’t hate the Rays. He gives the Rays little respect.
“I don’t tune in to Francesa anymore. He was bad enough with Doggy to call him on his pomposity.”
Sort of a pot/kettle situation!
The is all garbage. If the Yanks dont have injuries they make the playoffs and Joba is our Lester. No question.
Joey’s Poodle -
Yeah – I would agree with your last statement. Severe dyspepsia (a/k/a agita) inducing, annoying, but not a nightmare.
Kim looks good. Thats about the only good thing about this show.
It is cluttered and has no flow. Just Francessa rants followed by some obvious suggestions “I think the Yankees will go after Burnett”.
How old was Carlin when he lost his ‘boys’ – the guy is a soprano!
“You gotta be stupid to say that ! CC Sabathia carried 2 teams into the playoffs, Teixeira hasn’t done that. You literally get a streak stopper in CC, there aren’t SP like him around the league there just aren’t. CC >> Teixeira.
Oh and w/ Gil Meche he was overpaid when that contract went to him, he was paid as high as a Andy Pettitte in his prime, and he was nowhere near that.”
now really, you’re going to sit there and call someone else stupid?
as i explained, if i’m going to give out $150 million, id rather split it amongst 2 or 3 above average pitchers than one ace. i believe more in depth than in one pitcher for that cash. i didnt before, but when you look at even the most successful teams who go one these crazy runs, more often then not its lead not by one guy who is a stopper, but by a bunch of guys who are pitching to, or above, their capabilities from the #1 guy to the #5 guy.
and then what happens if Sabathia goes down? all that investment gets put on hold, and all the people who have been complaining that the yankees are sooo strapped for cash because of Giambi’s contract, and Matsui’s contract and Damon’s contract and Pavano’s contract, will be whining about the same thing… that they no longer have the flexibility to go out and find a replacement if one is needed in the rotation because Sabathia’s contract is so cumbersome.
Can they atleast get some inside info from Kim about who likes/dislikes Girardi, who hangs out with who, etc. some gossip please.
I believe in depth too TT but you don’t pass on a CC Sabathia.
“P.S. WE HAVEN’T DEVELOPED PLAYERS BECAUSE EVERY DEADLINE THEY WANT TO DEAL EVERY FREAKING YOUNGSTER.”
Actually, we haven’t developed players because in the last 10 years the Yanks have drafted very few players who turned out to be that good, whether for us or someone else.
I think its a “nightmare” for folks who get fixated with that stuff.
Certainly, Hank probably isn’t happy about the Red Sox and Rays in the ALCS.
Torre? I will never figure out all the anger toward him. The guy had a great run here and it ended. It happens.
Only a moron would hate on Torre, IMO.
There is no reason to hate on him.
As far as Hank, or anybody else, being ticked off the Sox and Rays are in the ALCS, whining about it does no good.
Just go out and improve your team in an intelligent manner.
Its not like the Yankees are ions away from doing so. They just have to be smart about it.
Believe me, if Darrel Rasner made the third most starts on the Red Sox or Rays, they wouldn’t be in the ALCS.
It helps a lot when you have your 5 best starters, like Tampa did, make 20 or more starts.
It also helps when you have 3 top guys like Lester, Dice-K and Beckett make most of their starts.
It begins and ends with starting pitching.
If the Yankees can improve in that area, they will be just fine.
You can have both CC and Tex – I don’t think it’s an either-or.
“I believe in depth too TT but you don’t pass on a CC Sabathia.”
why?
Francesa is totally overrating the Red Sox “great” young players.
Could he slow down. Lowrie is “great” all of the sudden.
Ellsbury is a good little player but in terms of upside (I know he’s not in the majors) but I will take Jackson’s upside over his.
Pedroia’s good but so is Cano. Amazing how many are off the bandwagon because of a bad year.
Lester okay the Yankees have Joba.
Bucholtz has not looked good this year neither has Hughes.
Masterson? Okay how about Robertson. Delcarmen okay how about Melancon. How about Coke?
When you break it down where is the big advantage at?
Did Francessa just say A-Rod was down 60 runs this year? Considering his 2007 numbers were insanely high, he missed 3 weeks on the DL in 2008 and finished 39 off of 2007 pace, what part of that statement would be accurate?
I would say you don’t pass on CC because very few pitchers of his caliber hit the FA market. You gotta grab your opportunities when you have them.
You can have both CC and Tex – I don’t think it’s an either-or.
Actually it is because even Cashman said they will be working on a budget..we need to pay on need not want, CC is a need Teix is not.
Here is the Red Sox young talent that Fatcessa is lauding:
Pedroia – two good years, I’ll give them that.
Youkilis – hit .020 more than in any previous season. Is 29 yrs old.
Bucholz – no-hitter then turned about as useful as Hughes/Kennedy.
Lester – 1 good year. First full season. How many pitchers have we seen with a good first full season bomb the next?
Ellsbury – .280/.336/.394, not impressed. Good defense… Gardner is faster and I think Gardner can put those offensive numbers up at least.
Drew – 33 years old. So-so.
Papelbon – fag
Bay – 30 years old. Last year of contract is next year then gets a huge raise.
Who else are we talking here? I’m not that impressed.
Brandon –
The Yanks have $80 million coming off the payroll so even if you believe Cashman (and I always take his public statements with a grain of salt) they can afford CC and Tex.
Here is the Red Sox young talent that Fatcessa is lauding:
Pedroia – two good years, I’ll give them that.
Youkilis – hit .020 more than in any previous season. Is 29 yrs old.
Bucholz – no-hitter then turned about as useful as Hughes/Kennedy.
Lester – 1 good year. First full season. How many pitchers have we seen with a good first full season bomb the next?
Ellsbury – .280/.336/.394, not impressed. Good defense… Gardner is faster and I think Gardner can put those offensive numbers up at least.
Drew – 33 years old. So-so.
Papelbon – fag
Bay – 30 years old. Last year of contract is next year then gets a huge raise.
Who else are we talking here? I’m not that impressed.
______________
You are dead right about everyone….and when you look at everyONE of our players you can make the case we have better talent
EXCEPT ITS THE SUM OF THE PARTS!!!
“Actually it is because even Cashman said they will be working on a budget..we need to pay on need not want, CC is a need Teix is not.”
That makes sense Brandon – what do you do at first base though – Casey Blake or someone like that?
Russell Ny,
Individually maybe they don’t look good to you but as a team they play like world beaters. And that’s all that really matters. No?
Patron is better than Jose Cuevero.
No Mike we spray Petrone on Kim.
“Believe me, if Darrel Rasner made the third most starts on the Red Sox or Rays, they wouldn’t be in the ALCS.”
sj-
the red sox did sign bryd at the right time to make sure that didn’t happen to them. the yankees had first shot at byrd. they passed.
i still haven’t heard anyone answer it. the yankees had to lose 30-50 million by not making the playoffs. wasn’t it foolhardy to cap the player cost at about 200 million and not spend another 20 million or so to make sure you don’t lose 30-50 million?
the money the yankees lost this past week could have paid sabathia’s 2009 salary.
Patrón*
new thread!!
“the red sox did sign bryd at the right time to make sure that didn’t happen to them. the yankees had first shot at byrd. they passed.”
Randy I nails it. The Red Sox had or got guys who could help them when things went wrong. Aside from Nady and Marte, We didn’t.
ATL was 5 games under in 100 games with Teix and ten games under in 56 games…to say he doesn’t impact a lineup is false.
“You are dead right about everyone….and when you look at everyONE of our players you can make the case we have better talent
EXCEPT ITS THE SUM OF THE PARTS!!!”
Yea, no doubt it is the sum of the parts. But I’ll say fixing the sum of the parts is a lot easier than completely restructuring a team like Fatman is talking.
pat
Mike doesn’t let facts get in the way of a good arguement.
Russell
That is the core question….what should the sum of our parts be? What type of team should we be?
Gritty? Overachievers? Prideful? (2008 Red Sox)
or
Lazy? Underperforming? Content? (2008 Yanks)
randy-
I don’t know where you get your numbers – did the Angels make $30M? I don’t see how.
And the incremental $20M is actually $30M when you factor in the luxury tax. If you maximize the number of home playoff games you get to 9 games and it isn’t like it is free to host the games.
You are overstating the numbers imo – but with $80M coming off and big contracts coming on – the decisions made a year ago really aren’t very important going forward.
Ha Ha Mike didn’t realize Tabata was traded.
So now he is critizing a Rays type player in Brett. Make up your mind Mike!
Fatman thinks Jose Tabata is still on the Yankees lol
If Gardner was on the Red Sox he would saying how “great” he is and how much the Yankees miss that kind of speed.
But since he’s on the Yankees he’s not good enough to start every day.
Some of you are acting as if this team is on the verge of battling Pittsburgh for the worst record in baseball. The Yanks had a better record than two playoff teams and were within one win of two others. They need a 1B and a starting pitcher or two depending on Mussina and Pettite and they will absolutely be contenders in ‘09.
The anti Teixiera crowd is in essence nuts. A dramatic upgrade at 1B for roughly the same money they spent at that position in ‘08 is a no-brainer. Maybe that’s why some of you don’t get it. No one who is opposed to acquiring has cited a legit baseball basis for that opposition or offered a realistic alternative. Most objections are based on what Teixiera might cost.
I for one don’t give a crap how much they spend… it’s our money funneled through the team and they have an obligation to put a winning team on the field. If payroll stays flat, I’m fine with that. Anyone who thinks they will reduce to $ 180 just doesn’t get it. No chance that happens.
I’m not advicating the insane undisciplined spending of the 80s. I’m interested in FA acquisitions who are in their prime and fill a specific need. That’s Tex and CC… and arguably AJ. ALL expensive signings are “risky” deal with it.
Right now the Red Saux deserve the accolades they are receiving.. four ALCS in six years is impressive. Only way to stop it is to beat them in ‘09.
I love CC think he would lead the yanks into the playoffs, but as everyone on this site knows, it’s not about making the playoffs but winning in them. Now we already have a number one starter who can’t pitch in the playoffs (wang) now we want to get another non-playoff performer? Look at CC stats in the playoffs, the guy is absolutely dominant during the season in the NL then first start in the playoffs and he gives up the most runs most extra base hits etc etc etc. Granted it was his 4th start in 12 days but I don’t think it affected him. he hung a slider to the flying hawaiian because he was feeling the pressure.
People like to make excuses for players who are gutsy and are genuinely great guys which CC is I’m sure. But it’s time to realize facts. He’s not a playoff performer.
Posada had surgery once on his left shoulder. He just had surgery on his right shoulder. In know way is having shoulders on two shoulders the same as having it twice on one shoulder.
“The anti Teixiera crowd is in essence nuts. A dramatic upgrade at 1B for roughly the same money they spent at that position in ‘08 is a no-brainer.”
Talk to me in 5 years when we have 2 more years of Tex hobbling around with a bad back and a huge contract.
If it was a one-year deal then fine, but Boras is talking TEN years.
“If Gardner was on the Red Sox he would saying how “great†he is and how much the Yankees miss that kind of speed.
But since he’s on the Yankees he’s not good enough to start every day.”
100% True Trevor.
“Aside from Nady and Marte, We didn’t.”
this is a flawed premise, because what the yankees needed they were going to replace or give up on anyway.
and dont forget Pudge, too. we needed an offensive catcher who might be able to handle the more everyday load and give Molina some time off.
you werent going to replace Cano. you couldnt find a real, veteran CF to bridge the gap for the rest of the season w/o paying an arm and a leg.
same with the pitching. pitching wasnt even really the problem.
you just had to hope the everday players were going to be able to produce and they didnt.
“Talk to me in 5 years when we have 2 more years of Tex hobbling around with a bad back and a huge contract.”
Tex is 28, not an old man. Will be 29 just when season starts. In 5 years from now he will be 33. I don’t see a 33-year old man who has the workout regimen that A-Rod has, hobbling around with a bad back. That is just crazy.
Giambi is 37, didn’t look remotely as athletic, and went through juice-withdrawal. They aren’t the same player.
“Talk to me in 5 years when we have 2 more years of Tex hobbling around with a bad back and a huge contract.”
how many times did we make it to the World Series in those 5 years?
“Tex is 28, not an old man. Will be 29 just when season starts. In 5 years from now he will be 33. I don’t see a 33-year old man who has the workout regimen that A-Rod has, hobbling around with a bad back. That is just crazy.”
ha! seriously. people have this crazy free agent phobia all of a sudden. get over it… Teixeira is exactly the type of player who needs to be targeted.
whether he wants to play in NY is another matter unto itself…
but hes a real, actual 1B who’s not a transplant or something like that, who is above average both offensively and defensively, and age-wise in his prime being brought in to play a position where there are no prospects in the system to take over for the foreseeable future.
tk in dc-
do your own math. 50,000 attendance at yankee stadium at 200.00 per person= 10 million per game. attendence and everything sold at the game is the yankees money if i’m not mistaken.
if someone has specific numbers that the yankees lost by not making the playoffs, i’d welcome it. i’m throwin out my guesstimates because no one is talking about the loss that is as real as sabathia’s salary next year.
the yankees lost at least 20 million and probably a lot more.i’d be surprised if it was under 30 million.
Giambi was a much better offensive player and an MVP before the deal that he signed. Tex’s best year got him 7th in the MVP balloting (although this year might be a touch better than that.)
but given:
“Boras’ asking price will be in the 10-year, $200 million range. The industry expectation is Teixeira will come in at six-to-eight years in the $120 million-$160 million area”
from the Post – I don’t think he’s worth it when it is so clear we need flexibility in contracts.
TK— Then offer a an alternative. There’s nothing easier than criticism without offering a better solution.
Again, no one cares what Boras might ask for and if the bottom line is ten years I say no thanx. But I doubt he will get much more than 7 years and $ 126. My line in the sand would probably be 8 @ $ 18 per.
What’s your solution for 1B and what will that solution cost. And please, TK don’t insult our intelligence by trading three crappy prospects for Casey Kotchman.
Laura October 7th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
The only people who seriously want us to trade Cano are panic button fans and the other 29 teams in the league.
Agreed.
My only amendment would be “dumb fans who don’t know how to recognize talent” in place of “panic button” fans.
randy –
I did my own math and that is why I called you on yours – and in any financial modeling you factor in the probability of an event when trying to value it.
So if getting CC gives you a 10% better chance at making $50M then signing him is worth $5M, not $50M. No one can guarantee that the Yanks would have made the playoffs given a particular personnel move. No rational financial decision maker would assess the fact the Yankees missing the playoffs as a ‘loss’ of $50M.
You can look at it as more of an ‘option’ than a gain or a loss.
P.S. Giambi was a great offensive player thanx to syringes. Since those days, not so much!
86 -
I didn’t call anyone nuts or crazy – I just said what I thought. Don’t get all sensitive.
I’d go for a Casey Blake type – why not try to find a reasonably priced or shorter term solution? Hell, get Chipper Jones
Casey Blake has never played more than 31 games at 1B in a single season and he’s already 35 years old. I could live with Balek/Miranda at 1B for a year if they decide to spend on pitching, but a FA like Tex doesn’t come around often.
I’m not taking it personally TK, but I think shooting down one point of view demands offering an alternative. It’s the debater in me!
Chipper actually makes a lot of sense if the Braves decide they don’t want him beyond 2009 but I don’t see that happening.
One angle we haven’t discussed is using the financial flexibility to take on bad contracts as a way of improving the roster and acquiring young talent. For example do the Dodgers deal Kershaw or Kemp in a deal that also frees them from Anduw Jones’ contract? Do the Giants move Cain or another arm if it frees them of Randy Winn or even Zito? There are a number of teams that might be approachable from that perspective.
It’s another way to use their resources.
Here’s my dream/realistic opening day roster -
1. LF Damon
2. SS Jeter
3. 1B Tex
4. 3B A-Rod
5. RF Nady
6. DH Matsui
7. C Posada
8. 2B Cano
9. CF Gardner
With Miranda, Ransom, Shelley, and Melky coming off the bench
Rotation -
1. Wang (back healthy)
2. Joba
3. Derrick Lowe (could be a good catch for the money, will keep us in the game)
4. Aceves (knows how to pitch)
5. Hughes (I see next year’s team following his lead – he’s good = we’re good)
LHRP – Coke and Marte
RHRP – Bruney, Giese, Edwar, Rasner (long man), Veras, and if anyone falls David Robertson first called up
We can’t sink a lot of years and money into CC, too risky. And we need a defined bench unlike last years. And for the love of god PLEASE no Wilson Betimet.
oh and TurnTwo Tex actually is a transplanted 1B, albeit from the minors. He came up as a 3rd baseman but Blalock pushed him across the diamond
“One angle we haven’t discussed is using the financial flexibility to take on bad contracts as a way of improving the roster and acquiring young talent. For example do the Dodgers deal Kershaw or Kemp in a deal that also frees them from Anduw Jones’ contract? Do the Giants move Cain or another arm if it frees them of Randy Winn or even Zito? There are a number of teams that might be approachable from that perspective.
It’s another way to use their resources.”
That is a great point … we are all trying to figure out what package we can offer up for a big name player, but the fact that the Yankees have so much money to play gives them another layer of leverage that other teams dont have … I could definitely see the Yankees going to the Dodgers for either Kemp or Lowney and offering to take Andruw Jones off their hands if they are willing to deal.
I wouldn’t touch Zito though, even if it meant getting Matt Cain … too many years that we would be on the hook for.