Francona getting the Torre treatment
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 12, 2008 
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Listened to Boston’s sports-talk radio station (WEEI) on my drive to Fenway Park. Terry Francona is getting roasted by the locals for:
1. Leaving Josh Beckett in too long.
2. Not using Paul Byrd in long relief
3. Using Mike Timlin in the 11th inning.
Beckett has admitted to strained oblique but his diminished velocity and inability to keep the ball down suggests he has could have another injury. It’s pretty evident something has been up with him this season. There is little doubt Francona will turn to him again if the series goes beyond five games, but one would think Beckett will have a short leash.
The criticism of Francona sounded much what Joe Torre used to get in New York around this time of the year.
Here’s what I find ironic: Joe Girardi clearly has a great understanding for pitching and for managing a bullpen and if he can get the Yankees into the playoffs, those skills could make a tremendous difference in a series. But the Yankees have to get in the playoffs first. Based on this season, you can’t just take that for granted.
The Rays are not working out today, understandably. But Joe Maddon and some of the players will be here at Fenway Park. The Red Sox do plan a workout but it’s probably not going to be a very lengthy affair.
Back with more later.
ok jennifer. That one is good as well.
I think Terry made great choices last night.
He had faith in Josh even after he kept giving the runs back.
I loved that he went to Mike Timlin, if only the big g was there, it would have ended it much quicker.
The bs thread is great too.
Not surprising. I can see bringing Beckett out for the fifth, but he was in at least 2 batters too many. Kind of agree on using Byrd as well. He got great results from the 5 pen members he seems to trust. I’d have used Byrd in the 11th. If nothing else, you know he won’t walk people. Timlin hasn’t gotten hitters out all year from what I’ve seen of him.
All that said, they should be happy with a split in St. Pete and should be thrilled with Francona. This is after all, the franchise that has had managers such as Butch Hobson, Grady Little, John “Wild Turkey” McNamara, and Don “The Gerbil” Zimmer at the helm.
I disagree that Joe G. has some magic touch with the bullpen. What he had was more talent to work with than Joe T., including players like Edwar Ramirez who suffered through some growing pains and is turning into a very respectable reliever
As a Yankee fan I admire Francona as a manager, field general and think he is a class act. Boston like NY has very high expectations from the Skipper to say the least.
Fredo, In Boston it’s Grady Littlebrain.
Boston should be worshipping Tito–without him, they never throw the curse.
Man, when I saw Timlin come in, I knew it was over. Not sure why Tito used him in such an important situation and agree that Byrd would have been a much better choice.
But I was loving it!
Yes James and Ramirez and Bruney sat around for weeks at a time. Farnsworth was zip, Torre the one relief wonder and schmooze the press, when he wasn’t napping in the dugout. Face it He got lazy and believed his press clippings. Why isn’t he snoozing in LA? He walked into Buck’s team and toned it down. How did Maddon get a bullpen, take a look, castoffs one and all. How does SD do it, same thing. But you have to work them and put them in situations where they succeed.
james that was funny. Torre was given some great arms and abused and mismanaged them so badly that they all ended up looking worthless. One of them was Bruney by the way.
What a difference a manager makes.
1) When you have that kind of success, you have to take the criticism in stride.
2) A strained oblique would explain both the drop in velocity and the inability to get the ball down.
3) The Yanks didn’t miss the playoffs because of their pitching so much as their hitting. You can’t expect to make it when you’re held to 2 runs or less for a third of the season.
Because Joe Torre did such a great job leading the Dodgers to 83 wins this season. He can take so much credit for the Diamondbacks failing and Manny Ramirez batting .600.
The implied endorsement of Torre is unwarranted.
Farnsworth and Bruney came out and said it was Girardi’s confidence in them that helped them and they didn’t mesh well with Torre.
I’ve noticed the blue collar guys seem to like Joe because he takes their feelings into consideration and gives them chances they didn’t previously get. Wheras the stars dislike him because he doesn’t coodle them like Torre did.
big win, today
Was that a compliment? lol.
Something’s up with Beckett. An oblique strain would take a month to recover from. And don’t forget the mysterious numbness.
Really could’ve gone either way last night. Boston’s a good team and you know someone’s going to cross the plate when they’ve got 2 on, no outs. But, yeah, if Byrd’s not starting you gotta go with him over Timlin. He really is a garbage time pitcher.
You can’t give Timlin any credit for last night, but any pitcher in that situation would have lost the game. Timlin had 15 days in between appearances, and even though you can’t use that as an excuse it’s understandable that he might not be sharp…not to mention his age.
But he lost the game on a groundball and a short pop fly. The speed of Perez made all the difference, as he advanced to 3rd with 1 out and managed to score on that very short fly to RF. I think most guys wouldn’t be scoring on that last play, a lot of guys might have even stayed put on that.
I knew when Timlin came in, it was over. What’s so odd is that as bad as Timlin is, I think the guy has 4 WS rings. Didn’t he win 2 with TOR to go along with his 2 in BOS? Shocking.
Boston fans are stupid.
After reading this post by Pete I went to their lame Boston Dirt Dogs website just to see how moronic they are being.
This is their headline for last night:
Things Get Ugly Late Night in One of the Worst Postseason Losses in Red Sox History
Really? A game 2 loss is the worst in your history? I guess they really do beleive that 2004 erased their past.
Girardi didn’t make a career in the Majors because of his hitting. He was a great catcher who could read his pitchers on what they had that day, what worked. He has brought that to his managing. Both men are bright. Torre’s strength is that he breeds loyalty and surrounds himself with talent. His major strength is low key ego massage. He is weak in player development, he has a lot of young talent in La, didn’t do much with them this year. He got lucky, Manny saved his ass.
While it’s true that the bullpen is better than the ones in the recent years, it’s basically been the same pen the last 2 seasons.
I really like the way that Joe G. put confidence in all of his relievers. Knowing that your number will be called on at any time kept everyone sharp and mentally ready.
I think it was considered one of their worst losses because, well lets face it, Beckett is known as the big game pitcher. Watching him give up run after run amd blowing every lead they gave him must’ve sucked for them.
This isn’t Boston’s year: no Schilling, Manny, Lowell (not to mention Ortiz isn’t hitting a thing).
Bob: No memory of 2004 or, on the other end, no memory of 1986.
They got elitist real fast up there, didn’t they?
tarantino
October 12th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
james that was funny. Torre was given some great arms and abused and mismanaged them so badly that they all ended up looking worthless. One of them was Bruney by the way.
What a difference a manager makes.
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Oh, please. What great arns did Torre have? Rivera and Gordon for two years and Rivera and Proctor for a year and a half. NYY hasn’t had a bullpen since 2001. If the team had actually had a bullpen that didn’t have a worn out Quantrill or a zero like Sturtze and Heredia, Proctor, Gordon and Rivera wouldn’t have been overworked. Ramirez had a good start just before the All-Star break and was out for 15 days. He has a great change-up, but until this year, his fastball never reached above 87 MPH and when he threw it, it usually ended up in the seats.
I think it was considered one of their worst losses because, well lets face it, Beckett is known as the big game pitcher.
It was game 2 of a series against the Rays.
Bucky Dent? Bill Buckner? Aaron Boone?
Nah, a series evening loss in game 2 of a series against a team that has never even been in the playoffs before, and who you are most likely gonna end up beating anyways….that’s one of your worst losses?
The stupidity up there is pathetic.
Well the Jet game wasn’t pretty, but a win is a win.
Bo knows
October 12th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Girardi didn’t make a career in the Majors because of his hitting. He was a great catcher who could read his pitchers on what they had that day, what worked. He has brought that to his managing. Both men are bright. Torre’s strength is that he breeds loyalty and surrounds himself with talent. His major strength is low key ego massage. He is weak in player development, he has a lot of young talent in La, didn’t do much with them this year. He got lucky, Manny saved his ass.
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nd here I thought that any manager could win with the shortstop out for 120 games and the 2nd baseman missing for 40. No third baseman unless you count Garcipara. three starters with 30 starts and one rookie with 22 starts. No doubt he mismanaged his way to the NL West title.
I’m sure hearing the “N” word 5,000 times at Fenway is going to run in Favor of the Sox.
Three games ended on the last play of the game.
Rams, Texans, Falcons.
Congrats Sox fans – you have become us – the joy of 04 is now replaced by yearly expectations -
Wow, what a crazy day of NFL so far. All worked in my favor as well
GB:
Torre also went considerable time without his closer too. I happen to think Broxton may have been an upgrade over Saito, but he still lost some bullpen depth.
Some wild football games today.
C’mon Cardinals, beat the Cowboys
Wow what a heartbreaker for the Bears.
ATL misses a chip shot with 2 minutes left that could have put them up 9 instead of 6.
CHI comes back with 11 seconds left with a TD to give them a 1 point lead
ATL gets a good return to mid-field and a quick sideline strike by Ryan with 1 second left and they drill a 48 yard FG.
The Rams and the Texans both won their first games of the season on last second plays.
I don’t know if anybody else took note of this, but early in the season, when he was struggling, Beckett said that he expected this to be a tough year because of pitching deep into October last year. He said that “it will be just like 2004″, when he had a tough year after the Marlins won. I think that has been in his head all year and he expected to struggle. Apparently Mr. Mentally Tough needs an extra month of rest to be at his best. Talk about a prima donna.
Fredo Corleone
October 12th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
GB:
Torre also went considerable time without his closer too. I happen to think Broxton may have been an upgrade over Saito, but he still lost some bullpen depth.
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I don’t care that Torre was let go (other than how it was done), because maybe it was time, so, I’m far from being a “Torre Apologist”, but Torre hadn’t had a rotation that went beyond two deep since 2003 ended and a bullpen that was more than 2 deep since 2001. NYY won on offense, but pitching has to go far beyond that to win in the post season. He made some mistakes, but, Martin, Houk, stengel and every other manager did too. Girardi had a 3 deep rotation, but, a close to outstanding bullpen. What he didn’t have was that explosive offense, but, he made plenty of mistakes, too. Torre wouldn’t have with this year’s team, either.
Beckett’s career trend has always been one good year followed by a down year.
That isin’t good news for us next year.
Y26,
Was torn on that one. Wanted to see Chicago win, but not on the leg of Elam. So I was glad that he was able to win the game.
He was our kicker in college and we’ve seen him kick a lot of FG & PATs. I think that he’s scored the most points in NFL history. Don’t know if that’s still true.
But good for Jason, he’s a really good guy that finally got to play for his home team.
Francona is a decent manager but when he mis-manages, he goes the gamut.
If not for Keith Foulke in ’04 and the John Rocker wannabe today, the Sockies would have had 90 years without a championship team on their hands.
Beckett’s like Arod – one good year, one bad year, one good year, one bad year…it’s a very frustrating cycle.
“Beckett’s career trend has always been one good year followed by a down year”
hes only had 1 bad year…there is no trend
GreenBeret7
October 12th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Fredo Corleone
October 12th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
GB:
Torre also went considerable time without his closer too. I happen to think Broxton may have been an upgrade over Saito, but he still lost some bullpen depth.
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I didn’t answer you point about Saito, but, yeah, he missed a lot of time, too. The excuse that LAD only won because they got Ramirez isn’t quite accurate. Two days earlier, they also got Casey Blake, who also gave LA quite a lift. People talk about how much Ramirez lifted LA to win, but, they only picked up 5 more games over .500 than before they got there. Strangely, that’s the same number over .500 that NYY picked up after acquiring Nady.
Why is Byrd the long man, anyway? He should be starting instead of Wakefield.
It’s beyond me how anyone can refuse to acknowledge Torre’s mishandling of the bullpen for the last several years. The point was made above that Girardi used his entire bullpen and didn’t give up on them (as Torre did and Pete often suggested) when they would struggle. Torre would “trust” one or two guys and run them into the ground.
Paul Quantrill, Tanyan Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Luis Vizcaino and even Ron Willone can tell you the joy of earning Torre’s trust and getting worked to death. Tom gordon, too for that matter.
No the starting pitching has not been very good in recent years, but all the more reason to spread the workload among several relievers. No matter what your preference between the Joes, any fair minded person would acknowledge Girardi wins this comparison.
To me one of Girardi’s weaknesses was in not accepting the fact that the Yankees needed to manufacture runs more frequently since HR were down and hitting with RISP was WAY down. The Yanks had enough speed to make more things happen and should have.
“hes only had 1 bad year…there is no trend”
He’s really only had one great year(regular season) as well.
Red Sox fans will never admit it but the Sox have become what Sox fans hate the most; the New York Yankees. A team with high expectations and a ridiculous payroll. The Sox have outspent Tampa by $100 million in payroll and the Sox fans expect the boxscores to match the level of money spent. Welcome to the dark side Sox fans!
As a Yankee fan, even I had to question the use of Timlin. The guy is done and has been for the past year, I’m not surprised that Francona is getting hammered.
That being said, I’m glad the Rays won!
So basically, the difference is the division and the competition. Which has been the point all along. Not the managers, not the bullpens, not the injuries, not the trades.
Arizona taking their glove and bat home had much to do with the Dodgers making it. Tampa & Boston keeping pace had much to do with the Yankees not making it.
Arizona isn’t even in the same conversation as Boston and Tampa.
The Yankees don’t have anything to be ashamed of. Well, maybe, the woeful offense. But night and day between the two divisions.
“Beckett’s career trend has always been one good year followed by a down yearâ€
“hes only had 1 bad year…there is no trend”
2008 12-10, 4.03 era and horrible playoff stats, 11.57 post season era- Not a very good year
2007 20-7 3.27 era, post season hero-1.20 era
2006 16-11 5.01 era and allowed 36 home runs (ouch!)- NOT a good year
“2008 12-10, 4.03 era and horrible playoff stats, 11.57 post season era- Not a very good year
2007 20-7 3.27 era, post season hero-1.20 era
2006 16-11 5.01 era and allowed 36 home runs (ouch!)- NOT a good year”
fine..if you dont include the years before then..then sure, there is a trend
…
2002 – 4.10 ERA
2003 – 3.04 ERA, dominant October
2004 – 3.79 ERA
2005 – 3.38 ERA
2006 – 5.01 ERA
2007 – 3.27 ERA, dominant October
2008 – 4.03 ERA, awful October
It may be nothing more than a coincidence, but there IS a trend.
02 to 03 – almost a 1 run difference
03 to 04 – about .80 points higher Low 3 to high 3
04 to 05 – not much variance, but 1\2 lower than 2004
05 to 06 – league switch, 1.7 runs higher than 05
06 to 07 – not even close
07 to 08 – injuries, but about .80 points higher than 07.
It’s time to move on from the Torre obsession. He’s not coming back.
This is his trend with Boston. He was also 26-26 in his first four years as a Marlin. Not exactly special. His breakout regular season was 2005 when he was 15-8. Overall he was 41-34 as a Marlin with an outstanding playoffs in 03. His record as a Red Sox pitcher is two OK seasons wrapped around one outstanding season.
Great entry on Jennings’ blog. Takes his best guess at who will be starting in Scranton & Trenton.
I think he’s assuming that Hughes and Coke will be in the Bronx.
http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....fault.aspx
AJ Burnett can be our Beckett next year
“The Yankees don’t have anything to be ashamed of”
when you have the best location on the block, you should do more business than anyone else. the yankees have the best location of any team. the fish jump in the boat. you have to be a nit wit to not do well.
what they did with their new york exclusive is an embarrassment.
“fine..if you dont include the years before then..then sure, there is a trend”
lol if you dont include ’06 ’08 ’04 or ’02 than yeah he doesn’t have good years followed by mediocre to bad years he is just always superman with a soul patch. Does saying something repeatedly make it the truth in your world?
Can it be said that Beckett’s injury-prone? Blisters, obliques, and numbness. Just kidding.
People need to realize that Burnett missed a large chunk of time due to TJ & complications from the surgery.
CC, AJ, Lowe. They’ll all be able to help us. We’ve got some pretty good pitching. They’re just not quite ready for prime time as far as IP counts.
And as far as Joe Torre not mismanaging the bullpen, well that’s revisionist history because he was pretty bad at it. He had a lot of the same guys that Girardi had this year and got nothing out of them. Edwar threw the same 89-91 mph fastball last year that he did this year but you counted time in between appearances in weeks with him and that killed his performance. Joe was a great manager here but like Johan Santana is with another team now, time to move on.
Mel, I don’t know if you have seen this, but, it makes for a good read.
http://riveraveblues.com/2008/.....nett-4697/
Francona is becoming Joe Torre 2.0
“TERRY HAS 2 RINGS!!!11 DO NOT QUESTION THE RINGS!!111!”
I laugh at those people.
Tom,
Thanks for that.
This is why Manny should stay in LA. First of all, he would be a train-wreck in the Yankee clubhouse and I don’t want to seem him in the AL East either. Angelenos are more concerned about their cars, designer clothes, and physiques than Manny or the Dodgers. I believe that Manny cracked because of the pressures of dealing with the Red Sox fanbase, which in terms of knowledge, intensity, and love of this sport, is just like ours.
Paul Byrd is better than Beckett
When you win, the manager gets the credit for making the right moves at the right time, when the team looses, the media gets on the manager for not making the different moves, plain and simple.
Actually I like both Joes, each has his strengths and weaknesses. Girardi is more suited for a young team, he didn’t handle his stars very well. On the other hand when he tried to manufacture runs, A Rod and Giambi stood there trying to blast a five run homer. Damon don’t bunt. Give me a break. Torre is very good at not putting pressure on a team, low key, don’t sweat each game. But it was time for him to move on. I’m still griped that Showalter got turfed just as success was a year away. Torre didn’t build the team, Buck did.
PETE + JOE 4EVA!
Francona has gotten the same treatment since he arrived on the scene in Boston.
He has also been compared to Torre in the past–good clubhouse guy, questionable in-game management (ask Phillies fans). In all fairness, you can afford to be that kind of manager when you’re in an organization that gives you the horses to win with.
But Francona has faced the same criticism his whole tenure in Beantown and was getting slaughtered by the media when they down 0-3 in ’04 ALCS.
Over time he has adapted and gotten better at in-game management (something Torre never really did), but is prone to debacles like the other night.
As soon as Timlin got in you knew Francona had just conceded that game.
Bob(The Original) October 12th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Boston fans are stupid.
After reading this post by Pete I went to their lame Boston Dirt Dogs website just to see how moronic they are being.
This is their headline for last night:
Things Get Ugly Late Night in One of the Worst Postseason Losses in Red Sox History
Really? A game 2 loss is the worst in your history? I guess they really do beleive that 2004 erased their past.
Aw c’mon, Bob – you’re kinda missing the obvious, aren’t you? It’s not that they believe their miserable history prior to 2004 has been erased, it’s that they’re not aware of it, since they didn’t root for the team before then.
“Joe Girardi clearly has a great understanding for pitching and for managing a bullpen”
Not sure where that opinion comes from. We had Ponson and Rasner making far too many horrible starts all year. Girardi nearly killed Damaso Marte in his first week with the Yankees, Mariano pitching
“Joe Girardi clearly has a great understanding for pitching and for managing a bullpen”
Not sure where that opinion comes from. We had Ponson and Rasner making far too many horrible starts all year. Girardi nearly killed Damaso Marte in his first week with the Yankees, Mariano pitching in the games leading up to the stadium close, when he knew he would use Mo in that last game.
I hope Girardi develops into a great manager, but he did not show it this past year.
Bob(The Original)-
I assume you’re joking about the headlines on dirtdogs?
http://bostondirtdogs.com/
That site is about as sarcastic as it gets, and pretty funny. Run by boston.com, not fans. The Sox don’t have a blog/forum anywhere near as good as Peter’s. The one on boston.com is a joke.
A sampling from the last series of the regular season:
-Fans Get Soaked on Friday Night: New York 19, Pawtucket 8
-There Goes the East! Sincerely, Van Every, Carter, Kottaras, Cash, Velazquez, Pauley
-Globe: Painful Setback for Sox
-Sox Are One and Done As AL East Champs; Crappy WC Caps On the Way
-Insult to Injuries: Johnny Play-Through-Anything Damon: .305, 17 Home Runs
-Ransom Money for Yankees: Shortstop Was 3-for-3, 2 Homers
-Someone Forget to Tell Jacoby Tito Was Mailing It In
-Jason BBay, Not Exactly Leading the Way, Sincerely MVP Manny
-Did the Manager Add Insult to Lowell, Drew, and Coco Injuries?
-Don’t Blame J.D. Drew, He Is Who We Thought He Was, Sincerely Dennis Green
-So Matsuzaka Can’t Go in the Moisture with 8 Days Rest on Tap?