Today in The Journal News
-
- October
- 12
The theme of the Sunday Baseball Beat is that the AL East is no longer the cakewalk it once was for the Yankees as the Rays and Red Sox are under better management.
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on Sunday, October 12th, 2008 at 2:32 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Good morning Pete
Blue Jays as well. As for the Orioles…. not so much.
Excellent article Pete. Brutally honest and sad.
The organization is a mess right now.
Great read, Pete. Not so doom & gloom as it sounds, though. We won a lot of games without our two best starters.
Next season, the Rays won’t be a surprise. Teams will be gunning for them and they’ll have to fix their bullpen (and bullpen management!). They’ll have the magnificent Mr. Price, but we’ll have the magnificent Mr. Chamberlain. And what’s with Kazmir? I didn’t hear the TBS crew making any excuses for him like they did for Beckett.
Rays won’t win 100 next season. Actually, no one in the east will. The AL East was the best division in baseball again, despite the pundits opinions. It’ll be even stronger next season.
No matter what happens in the offseason, I’m really looking forward to having Wang back. Not having him gave me a deeper appreciation for the consistency and results he brought every 5 days.
What could the Mets have to trade that would possibly of interest, please, don’t say Beltran for Cano and RPs. Hudson is the only replacement and he isn’t a third the player that Cano is.
The world has no answer for DaMarcus Beasley.
People keep posting how the Yankees need to focus on their pitching and stay away from Teixeira. I agree that the Yankees should sign CC, but I think that will be enough. Adding CC Sabathia AND Wang, who was out most of the year to any rotation makes a HUGE difference. Bring back Pettitte or Mussina, start Joba and Hughes, and use Aceves, Rasner, Wright, Kennedy, Coke, and Igawa as depth.
Again, I am not disagreeing with signing Sabathia. What I disagree with is signing Derek Lowe or AJ Burnett instead of signing Teixeira. Here’s why:
Derek Lowe put up impressive numbers in the weakest hitting division in baseball pitching in what is generally considered a pitcher’s park. Look at his splits.
Home: 2.30 ERA/117.1 IP/6 HR/.206 BAA
Away: 4.42 ERA/93.2 IP/8 HR/.292 BAA
Take those away numbers, replace the pitcher with a DH and you’ve got a starter with far worse numbers than Andy Pettitte. People talk about his AL East experience. Sorry, Kei Igawa has AL East experience too. A 5.42 ERA in his last year in the AL East shouldn’t be a pro when you are listing pro’s and con’s.
Now, AJ Burnett has done it in the AL East, and he’s got great stuff. He’s also extremely inconsistent and extremely injury prone. He’s going to want a 5 year deal for a lot of money per year and has proven that he can’t stay healthy or consistent.
Sign CC. Sign Teixeira. Resign Andy Pettitte. Offer arbitration to Abreu, Giambi, and Marte and take the draft picks. The team gets a younger, more talented, better balanced roster. They end up with more draft picks than they start with because of all the type A free agents leaving. The total pay roll would be around $180 million with about $40 million freed up the following year when Matsui, Nady, Damon, and Pettitte would be free agents. Austin Jackson would be ready for the pro’s at that point, Gardner/Melky will have proven if they are more than 4th outfielders, and free agents like Crawford, Holliday, and Bay are available.
It’s a shame the yankees beat-writer can’t be a yankees fan.
The Rays will only get better next year and one shouldn’t forget the Blue Jays too.
No. 27 —- You are right on as it relates to Texieria. He should be priority # 2 over Lowe or Burnett. I’d also be fine with another year from Pettite and/or Mussina.
Abritration for Abreu? Yes. For Giambi? NO WAY ON EARTH!!! First, You need his money to pay for Teixiera.Second, if he accepts you have a $ 17 million DH to share the role with Matsui.
Marte is not arbitration eligible, The Yanks have an option on him. They should pick it up, but then negotiate something in the 3-year, $ 12 million range.
CC/Wang/Pettite/Hughes/Joba = all that is necessary. Totally agree with the fact the Yanks do not need to buy 2 free agent pitchers. Two lefties in the rotation will compare to last decade’s glory days when Yanks generally had 2 lefties in the rotation.
Pettite was nowhere near ready for #1 status this year rotationally. Hughes and Joba rounding things out gives them room to breathe and less innings for Joba so he can build innings a bit more slowly.
Trish: more of a scanner than contributor here – Abe’s the place for up-to-date Yank info, most definitely. Contributor SJ44 (who, I believe, is Abe’s inner voice Yank fan talking) is another good read.
The Baseball Beat story mentions Al Pacino as a candidate for the lead in a movie about Tomy Lasorda.
The only thing worse than the thought of a movie about Tommy Lasorda (how do you fill 2 hrs of film about that guy unless you show him at meals in real time) is the idea of watching Pacino do an overwrought Tommy Lassorda impersonation, complete with the obligatory shouting scene. In every Pacino movie there is one scene where Pacino’s character goes from mumbling inaudibly to a prolonged, throat scarring rage.
How about they just hire Frank Caliendo? He’s certainly closer to Lasorda’s, um, shape. Maybe that would get the man of a thousand voices out of my face. Last year it was Dane Cook, this year it’s Caliendo. Please someone, make it stop.
Thanks for a reasonably objective update on the Division and NYY’s current place in it. Some fanboys and fangirls will blame the messenger that the news is not great. Others of us read for the intelligent and CONSTANT flow of info and analysis.
Blog mystery: why do the best bloggers often attract little in the way of intelligent comment from readers? You get a million hits, 95% or more of which are bandwidth-wasting fluff. Kat O’Brien, a good reporter who seems like a somewhat reluctant blogger, gets far fewer hits but most of them are actually based on thoughts about baseball rather than on the commenters’ emotions and feuds. The comparisons between this blog and others could go on, but what I always wonder is why in the blogosphere it is so rare to find prolific and intelligent entries on both sides of the comment line.
thatsa big closet!
“Blog mystery: why do the best bloggers often attract little in the way of intelligent comment from readers? You get a million hits, 95% or more of which are bandwidth-wasting fluff”
I think it is because Pete’s blog is popular. If Kat O’Brien’s blog were as popular as Pete’s it would get just as much profane and inane comments.
Have you seen the comments left on ESPN? They’re junk. Somewhere along the evolution of being a fan it has become acceptable to be borderline anti-social mouth breather.
I’ve only been posting here a month or so, but, I find there are people who do want to have a intelligent discussion about the Yankees. I have learned to ignore the stories about Arod, Santana, Cashman, Joe V Joe, and so on because thats where the silliness is.
Anyway, who wants to talke about the Yankees?
The Rays are in for a big let-down next year. Price will likely be dominant, but they had no injuries to their pitching this year; aside from Kazmir getting a late start, and Percival’s injuries–they are better off w/o him pitching anyway. Making the playoffs will take a lot out of these guys the way it did to Beckett this year. Also, they are good, but they have had a lot of fortunate breaks and magical moments that just don’t happen routinely.
Also, Matsuzaka is bound to have his pitching style catch up with him. Batters going 0-fer with bases loaded for the season is more than just being good, it is being incredibly lucky as well. I expect a much higher ERA out of him next year.
The Yanks should be refocussed and rededicated after their October vacation this year. If they don’t come out of the gate motivated next year, we will know that this team, as presently built, will never win. But I don’t expect that to be the case in ‘09!
Great Post…totally agree. Plus, the team should scan the free agent bullpen help and chose one to supplement our younger minor league studs.
no.27
October 12th, 2008 at 3:59 am
People keep posting how the Yankees need to focus on their pitching and stay away from Teixeira. I agree that the Yankees should sign CC, but I think that will be enough. Adding CC Sabathia AND Wang, who was out most of the year to any rotation makes a HUGE difference. Bring back Pettitte or Mussina, start Joba and Hughes, and use Aceves, Rasner, Wright, Kennedy, Coke, and Igawa as depth.
Again, I am not disagreeing with signing Sabathia. What I disagree with is signing Derek Lowe or AJ Burnett instead of signing Teixeira. Here’s why:
Derek Lowe put up impressive numbers in the weakest hitting division in baseball pitching in what is generally considered a pitcher’s park. Look at his splits.
Home: 2.30 ERA/117.1 IP/6 HR/.206 BAA
Away: 4.42 ERA/93.2 IP/8 HR/.292 BAA
Take those away numbers, replace the pitcher with a DH and you’ve got a starter with far worse numbers than Andy Pettitte. People talk about his AL East experience. Sorry, Kei Igawa has AL East experience too. A 5.42 ERA in his last year in the AL East shouldn’t be a pro when you are listing pro’s and con’s.
Now, AJ Burnett has done it in the AL East, and he’s got great stuff. He’s also extremely inconsistent and extremely injury prone. He’s going to want a 5 year deal for a lot of money per year and has proven that he can’t stay healthy or consistent.
Sign CC. Sign Teixeira. Resign Andy Pettitte. Offer arbitration to Abreu, Giambi, and Marte and take the draft picks. The team gets a younger, more talented, better balanced roster. They end up with more draft picks than they start with because of all the type A free agents leaving. The total pay roll would be around $180 million with about $40 million freed up the following year when Matsui, Nady, Damon, and Pettitte would be free agents. Austin Jackson would be ready for the pro’s at that point, Gardner/Melky will have proven if they are more than 4th outfielders, and free agents like Crawford, Holliday, and Bay are available
Bobby,
I do like Texeira, but not for the number of years it will take to get him–7-10. If the market for him is just not there, then 4-5 years would be ideal, but I think there is little or no chance of that. I just don’t agree with signing stars to superstar contracts.
Also, if they offer arbitration to Giambi, he WILL accept it. It would guarantee him somewhere @17-22M next year. On the open market, he would probably get 8-10 per year. I, personally, would not want him back at any price.
Mark – I so agree with you and was thinking the same thing. These Rays pitchers are putting a lot of innings on their arms that they did not in prior seasons. This may affect them next season like it did the Tigers young pitchers the season after they were the AL Champs.
Just got up-Rays won last night? Thank goodness!
That was one long game..
Today’s topic:
Hank Steinbrenner: Clueless buffoon or Evil clown?
Discuss.
“Hudson is the only replacement and he isn’t a third the player that Cano is.”
Mark Ellis would be a better option than Hudson in my eyes. Obviuosly not the hitter Cano is, but he’s a superior fielder and will be considerably less expensive than Hudson.
In the end though, this is all probably moot as I don’t think many see the Yankees moving Cano at this point.
re: The Rays next year I think a look at the Marlins would be a healthy comparison. Great young pitching one year, not so much the next.
yet another doom and gloom piece on the Yankees? I’m not going to bother reading it – that kind of stuff annoys me to no end. Just because the Rays and Sox are going to be good for awhile doesn’t mean the Yankees won’t…..sounds like just another way to get Yankee fans worried that their team is in the tank for the next decade. Moving on…….
Thanks for posting the article Pete – thought-provoking and good. And re Yankee fan beat writers: the only thing needed is someone willing to report accurately and comment as needed. Pete more than fills the bill on all counts, and is doing an excellent job. Fans can take care of the cheerleading end of things. Not looking for fanboy reporting, just honest obvservations and frank dicussion. That’s what makes this blog so great.
I’d rather give this management a chance. Stick, Cashman, and Torre have spoiled me. The Rays look like they’re under better management now, but it’s about damn time after 10 years of getting the first overall pick (or close to it) and finishing under .500 and in last place. This season was a failure for the Yanks, but at least they kept it exciting for the most part. That’s nothing really to take credit for, but it’s better than being a Pirates fan right now. The advantage of being the Yanks is they have the resources to correct this right now in the short-term, while rebuilding for the long-term. They just have to be smarter with how they build.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10122008/sports/moresports/girardi_shouldnt_try_to_be_the_next_joe_133288.htm
How funny was the post from last night. That he was happy with the way Josh pitched, he kept the team in the game. In case he missed every time the soxs tied or went ahead, the pitching gave it right back. But don’t let facts get in the way of a delusional sox fan.
Come on guys, lets start denigrating Torre before the regulars show up!
-he managed in the NL west and had only 84 wins!
-MANNY RAMIREZ!!!!!!
-NCLS? pfffffffft. Girardi would have locked up the NL West in April.
Come to think of it, lets start a list of overrated and overvalued coaches/managers in sports who achieved their success in large because the athletes meant more to winning than coaching strategy:
-every. single. one.
This joe torre lovefest/hatefest is a media creation, then perpetuated by fans. I do value free speech, but is there any way, Pete, you can create a filter for the word ‘Torre’?
One mention of his name, the haters (who won’t be named, but three prominent ones), and the lovers (countless) start a massive threat with neverending arguments.
Then again, it does create traffic…
Cashman lacks the ability to make the right choice on player talent. The Sox get Beckett we get Pavano, They get Dice K we get Igawa, they get Schilling we get Jophnson. I could keep going but why bother. Cashman was the coffee gofor when Gene Micheals & Buck Showater built the last dynasty. Since Cashman has been I charge the lackj of wise replacements & additions under his watch has seen the team go in a steady decline. Wish he would have gone to his beloved small market team ,where ever that is.
For those of you complaining that Pete isn’t a Yankees fan, think about it. How could he objectively report on the team if he was a fan? He’d see everything with rose colored glasses.
That being said, I don’t think he needs to be as anti-Girardi as he is, but he most certainly should love the team as much as we do. Nothing he wrote would carry any real weight. Nor would it be credible.
“but he most certainly should love the team as much as we do.”
should = shouldn’t
Hi Pete, my friends and I just heard about Jose Molina’s father. Not sure if you have any contact at all with players during the off season, but if you can get the message across, could you tell Jose that the fans sent their condolences and our thoughts are with his family.
dee- Jose’s father passed away?
Mmm,. three year oldcomputers with broken keyboardsand bad internet connections.
Life is good.
Dee: For real?
My condolences to the entire Molina family.
Joel Sherman’s column in the Post today suggests Cashman will not dabble in the free agency marketplace to fill the first base and centerfield positions but will focus on trades (utilizing pitching prospects) and the present roster; free agency, so Sherman opines will be the marketplace for pitching needs.This appears somewhat consistent with Cashman’s sporadic comments during the past few weeks. On the other hand, the bluster from Tampa states loud and clear that the “vault is open†for any and all needsâ€â€”classic Boss rantings. Is this inconsistent? Did the left hand know what the right hand was saying/suggesting? Cashman presumably closes the door to Boros and his position free agents whereas Hank openly greets Mr. B….he “winks†and says come directly to me…classic Boss style!!
Don’t rule out any free agency signing, position player or otherwise, irrespective of what the NY press, or the national pundits, might suggest. They typically don’t get it right. The Santana situation sticks in Hank’s craw and he won’t let Cashman forget it. I don’t believe for one moment that Hank has less influence than Hal; Hal’s “presence†and Hank’s physical absence was for media consumption.
The red carpet will be rolled out for Boros in Tampa.
Poor Jose and brothers. Jose talked lots about his dad and his influence in their baseball lives.
God bless them all.
Oh I don’t know. Since we are all aware that George Steinbrenner had not really been making decisions for a bit, certainly for more than one season, it would appear that the Yankees not making the postseason this year likely had to do with a confluence of other events. Since hindsight is 20-20 it also appears that some of the moves didn’t work out right away, but then it also appears that many referred to this season as a rebuilding year! So was it really poor management after all?
I think it is rather silly to say those teams are under “better management”. Certainly they ended up having better records. But when the Yankees make the postseason next season will they magically have had “better management” than the two just touted? Will the Sux and Rays have descended into “lesser management”?
The theme I see so often here is trying to fit square puzzle pieces into round holes so the puzzle makers can say SEE!
As is the case in life, the answers are oftentimes much more complex; and therefore rather than take the time to go through the painful process of trying to find the sometimes hidden pieces in the very large puzzle box, I think the tendency is to come up with a superficial, one-size-fits-all response.
I never buy those.
But that’s just me.
The Yankees, unlike any other team in any other sport, do not have the luxury of “rebuilding” in the conventional sense. The Yankees cannot, and will not, wait. The dollar stream, which indeed in substantial and unequalled, must continue apace to satisfy the demands of the new stadium, YES advertisers, etc. This indeed is a monumental task given the downward spiraling economy and the immediate financial prospects of our country.
“Fortunately”, the expiring contracts free up some cash especially at a time when the free agency market provides the necessary talent to remedy, in part, the team’s needs. Most of the potentially competing bidders will either pass or fade at the end due the economic uncertainty. In sum, if the Yankees want someone and the main consideration is money, the Yankees will sign him. Who they are is up for speculation; your guess is as good as mine and certainly better than the media pundits who base their comments on misinformation from “unnamed team sources”.
Any Yankee fan with some objectivity will resonate with Pete’s article.
But hey, if you want to dismiss the Rays and think they are a fluke, thats up to you. I don’t know how anyone could think that after watching that game last night.
I should add: “rebuilding” generally means less competitive teams which means poorer records which means poorer attendance and tv ratings which means considerably less revenues. Nothing more need be said.
Ramon I don’t think they’re a fluke. I never did. In fact I was actually aware enough to know they would be a forced to be reckoned with when everyone else was calling them scum, I’d say for quite a few years now.
Any Yankee fan with some objectivity will see that there are a lot of things that went into the Yankees missing this postseason and calling it simply “better management” of other teams is far too easy. Unless of course you need to feel good about having an easy answer at your fingertips. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what floats your boat.
Reacher,
You are 100% correct. When they decided to build this new stadium, they did it so they could become a global marketing powerhouse and a financial powerhouse. They tied the YES Network into the stadium as well and are trying to up its value so they can sell it. Any thought of rebuilding was ludicrous. It could work last year because it was the final year of the old stadium, but now they must win. The economic crisis just re-emphasizes that. Fans are not going to come out to see a substandard product. YES Network suffered huge ratings drop offs. We are also competing with the Mets and their new stadium deal for the independent advertisers and within the city itself for promotion.
To sum that up into layman’s terms– The new stadium isin’t going to fund itself and the YES Network value isin’t going to increase by itself. They absolutely must go for it next year. They made that commitment when they went ahead with this billion dollar stadium.
But they are setup perfectly to do so with the $88 mil off the books and the pretty good class. The trade market also must be explored.
When Pete said better management, he meant front office structure, and he is absolutely right.
Compare the Rays/Sox pitching rotation and young talent to us and its not even close.
I don’t think he was taking a shot at Girardi saying the other 2 guys are better managers. Infact, after watching how these 2 guys managed this series so far, that would be inaccurate.
As usual, people making a mountain out of a mole, just like with Hank’s article yesterday.
Pete’s article wasn’t “doom and gloom”. If you read the whole article and not just the title, people would realize that. It brought up some very valid points in comparison to our rivals. We are now fighting TWO teams in our division for the first time in a long time. Cashman better realize this when evaluating the roster this winter. He can’t use the losers “injuries” excuse. Every team has injuries. Go out and improve the team via FA and the trade market.
pete – i don’t think anyone will deny that they are under better management. its up to cashman to change that perception. their young talent is just better than ours. we need to make our move in free agency to improve the team. we can’t just sit back and hope the young guys perform. this is not kansas city.
My comments regarding the media were not posted in response to Pete’s column, but rather the media, in general. I must admit, however, that the Sherman and Lupica colums of today were the precipitating events. Unfortunately, none of our esteemed commentators know one whit about the economics of baseball, our country or what is happening “outside the lines” (though their knowledge of that which is within is sometimes dubious). Pete is an exception to the NY “Yankee” press since he has no agenda, is not motivated by his own ego, not pumping up the sale of a book, and does not write a column to vent any built up animus as some obviously do….see, e.g., Lupica’s of today.
X-Man, excellent commentary. The Yankees cannot do it the “old-fashioned” way.
Just curious, Reacher –
Is your first name Jack?
“Cashman better realize this when evaluating the roster this winter. He can’t use the losers “injuries†excuse. Every team has injuries. Go out and improve the team via FA and the trade market.”
I think Cashman will absolutely do this. If you ever listen to him, he’s the last person ever to use the injuries reason.
Joey, he’s the man, my hero, and an avid Yankee fan.
“Reacher
October 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Joel Sherman’s column in the Post today suggests Cashman will not dabble in the free agency marketplace to fill the first base and centerfield positions but will focus on trades (utilizing pitching prospects) and the present roster; free agency, so Sherman opines will be the marketplace for pitching needs.This appears somewhat consistent with Cashman’s sporadic comments during the past few weeks. On the other hand, the bluster from Tampa states loud and clear that the “vault is open†for any and all needsâ€â€”classic Boss rantings. Is this inconsistent? Did the left hand know what the right hand was saying/suggesting? Cashman presumably closes the door to Boros and his position free agents whereas Hank openly greets Mr. B….he “winks†and says come directly to me…classic Boss style!!
Don’t rule out any free agency signing, position player or otherwise, irrespective of what the NY press, or the national pundits, might suggest. They typically don’t get it right. The Santana situation sticks in Hank’s craw and he won’t let Cashman forget it. I don’t believe for one moment that Hank has less influence than Hal; Hal’s “presence†and Hank’s physical absence was for media consumption.
The red carpet will be rolled out for Boros in Tampa”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10122008/sports/yankees/sabathia__burnett_figure_in_bombers_offs_133256.htm
hopefully, the plan goes as oulined. With Tampa on the huge upswing and Redsox not going away, the Yankees are in a fix. This plan is as good as any i’ve seen, to continue to build the club.
I did email Joel Sherman, letting him know Hank Blaylock should’ve been mentioned (among the trade names)
This is an extremely critical off-season for the Yankees. . More so than any in my recent memory. I seriously doubt that Cashman, though he suggests to the contrary, will be flying solo. There will be ongoing input, probably controlling, from Tampa. The “glaring deficiencies” have to be remedied.
Reacher,
I admire the minimalist, too, even though I can’t get it down to his level. As you can tell just by seeing me post here…
aron,
Thanks for the link, I had missed that one.
Eye contact is good…
One mistake in the article…Toronto finished in 2nd place in 2006.
off topic: did anyone see ‘Life On Mars’, on ABC last wk?
forgot to check it.
Sports writers and my fellow bloggers seem to forget that the Rays took 2 out of 3 in Boston back in Sept. when the games meant that the winner could go a long ways towards claiming home field advantage for the playoffs.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they won 2 out of three again.
Sure they had that deer in the headlights look in the first game but they punched and clawed their way to a victory last night that showed they had flushed the first game jitters.
Lester/Garza Sure Lester is out of this world but he is human and Garza can be lights out too when he is on.
Wakefield/Sonastine Wakefield is past his prime and Sonastine was the main reason they won one of those two games in Sept although he didn’t get the decision.
Matsazuka/Shields Awesome game one performances by both guys. Toss up.
Beckett/Kazmir or Jackson Obviously Beckett is not himself and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jackson take Kazmir’s place in the rotation. After all he won more games during the year (14) and Kazmir seems like he has fallen off a cliff.
On another note: Girardi may eventually be a decent manager but it seems that the overall makeup of the organization is shaky and I believe he feels inhibited from being who he really is because he doesn’t feel comfortable; which might be more attractive to both players and writers and fans.
I used to root for Cashman to be in charge and the Boss to let him work his plan. Now, it looks like neither one of their plans were viable.
IMHO the team needs new ownership and it can’t be done quickly enough.
“The Red Sox and Rays have better rosters, management, managers, prospects and owners than the Yankees do right now.”
well, better late than never, but the above statement is like saying that the united states is in a financial pinch because of the sub prime lending practices of u.s. banks.
both statements qualify as a big “duh”.
come out and say it last spring before it happened and then it would be a good piece of work. after the fact is just hindsight and nothing that everyone doesn’t already know.
You can call it just hindsight and stuff everybody knows, but what makes it feel fresh is the fact of just having watched those two games.
We can remember when the Yankees looked alive out there.
Watching teams that look alive out there today makes me feel how far away we were all year, with only very brief intermissions, from playing like that.
vtred
October 12th, 2008 at 2:37 am
Excellent article Pete. Brutally honest and sad.
The organization is a mess right now
the organization is not as bad as you make it seem.
the bullpen is awesome,young,deep,joba,hughes,ajax,montero,a ton of pitching prospects.with a couple of moves we are right there.
the key is i believe,signing the right free agents and not trading the major league or close to major league prospects.
the sox signed mostly free agents and traded minor leaguers,no matter how good and kept the young kids that were good or thought to be good and were on the roster or very close like ells,pedroia,lowrie,lester,buchholz.pattern???? i am not sure.
start with the rotation and try to trade for a centerfielder and first baseman without giving up hughes,joba and maybe montero,ajax.
i am not talking about the best first baseman or centerfielder on the planet but a decent one.
the red sox are built around pitching and obp.very simple.
condolences to Jose Molina and his brothers on the loss of their father.