ALCS Game 3: Rays at Red Sox
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 13, 2008 
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RAYS
Iwamura 2B
Upton CF
Pena 1B
Longoria 3B
CrawfordLF
Aybar DH
Navarro C
Baldelli RF
Bartlett SS
Garza RHP
RED SOX
Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Youkilis 3B
Drew RF
Bay LF
Kotsay 1B
Varitek C
Cora SS
Lester RHP
Notes: Francona said he wanted to use Cora against Garza because he hits right-handed fastball pitchers better than Jed Lowrie.
Francona was asked before the game about backup catcher Kevin Cash, who catches Tim Wakefield. The Red Sox, he said, have had problems finding a catcher who can handle the knuckleball.
“We saw John Flaherty retire. Flash came over to me that first game in Fort Myers, we were playing the Twins, and he looked like a deer in the headlights, and the next day he came and got me off the treadmill and said, ‘I cannot imagine doing this every five days.’ And he retired.
“We saw a very good backup catcher in Josh Bard get beat up. And Josh Bard was still a very good catcher, and it was hard to handle Wake. That’s why Mirabelli, he had an unbelievable ability to catch that ball. It’s not easy. Some days there’s balls that are going to go to the backstop. That’s just part of the way it is. There are going to be stolen bases, there’s going to be wild pitches. There’s going to be passed balls, but the good part of that is you look up in the seventh and he usually gives you a chance to win.”
UPDATE, 3:48 p.m.: Phil Hughes is facing Max Scherzer today in the AFL. You can follow the game here if you are interested.
UPDATE, 5:10 p.m.: More solid work today for Hughes: 5 4 1 1 1 3. In two AFL starts, he has allowed one run over 10 innings and struck out 10. He has been working on his cutter and it appears to be a pitch he can move forward with.
Just my opinion, but the Yankees would be making a tremendous mistake to trade Hughes. The AFL is going to give him a nice springboard to 2009.
Meanwhile Jason Varitek is just killing Boston. It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what they do with him when he becomes a free agent. Theo Epstein is cold-blooded when it comes to making tough decisions and deciding whether to keep Varitek will be a tough call.
UPDATE, 5:27 p.m.: With both of these teams in the division, it’s hard not to watch these games and not think about the Yankees.
Now, granted, the Rays have benefitted from having so many high draft picks. But watching guys like B.J. Upton reminds you that the Yankees have to draft and develop players with that sort of athletic ability. How Brett Gardner and Austin Jackson come along could really change the Yankees for the better.
UPDATE, 7:26 p.m.: Upton and Longoria have nine HRs this postseason, a record for teammates under 25. The old record of six by Darryl Strawberry and Lenny Dykstra for the ’86 Mets. Upton just turned 24 and Longoria just turned 23.
Longoria is going to be the best player in the division very soon.
UPDATE, 7:35 p.m: Rocco Baldelli just crushed a three-run homer over the wall in left field to give Tampa an 8-1 lead and send assorted members of Red Sox nation scurrying for the exits. Good for him. Baldelli has missed most of the season because of a rare disease that saps his strength.
He is the fourth native of Rhode Island to homer in the postseason. Can anybody guess the first three?
UPDATE, 7:54 p.m.: Tampa Bay has scored 18 runs on 25 hits – seven of them home runs – in the last two games of the series. Those members of the Nation sober enough to walk have left the park at this point.
Tampa Bay has scored 18 runs on 25 hits – seven of them home runs – in the last two games of the series.
Think all the catchers in the league are hoping that the Sox will stop picking up that option?
Pete should create a system where the previous 10 comments from the previous thread gets transferred to the new thread automatically.
Clare,
Austin Jackson struck out to end the top of the 1st.
Phil got 2 quick outs, single, stolen base, walk, ground out to end the inning.
dating back to Jim Brown, is there a running back who runs as effective, physical, and punishing to a defense as Brandon Jacobs ?
“Pete should create a system where the previous 10 comments from the previous thread gets transferred to the new thread automatically.”
Yeah, I’m sure Pete will be on top of that ASAP.
oops. that’s wrong.
quick out, single, SB, walk, ground out, strike out to end inning
Okay I don’t know how many on here like hockey buy in case you do. Rangers prospect (17th pick in 2007) Alexei Cherepanov just died.
“Phil got 2 quick outs, single, stolen base, walk, ground out to end the inning.”
According to gameday you have that a bit mixed up: ground out, single, stolen base, walk, ground out, strike out.
Pete are you trying to rub salt in our wounds?
vinny-b, Earl Campbell was a tank.
Phil’s control has really gone south since he switched to his new mechanics in 07.
Hughes line so far:
1.0 1 0 0 1 1 – 17 pitches/10 strikes
Max Scherzer, the guy opposing Hughes is a stud. He throws 100 MPH. The D’Backs should have used him as the closer down the stretch instead of having Lyon/Rauch blowing games for them.
Trevor, thats awful. Was it an accident?
Let’s go Rays!
Forntosos – Agree. I have yet to see a benefit of them changing his mechanics. His control has been very spotty since the switch.
Why do we have the lineups? Have we been given all of the postseason game lineups right along? Or is it because Pete has to cover the game? Oh well, I ignored reading it since I don’t give a rat’s butt about the lineups – like it makes any difference to me who’s out there. JUST WIN RAYS!!! Anyway I think Pete is a secret Sux fan. If I’m right he has done a heck of job hiding it, so kudos to him for that.
Tom: yes. He definitely was. Great RB.
Wasn’t Scherzer up with Arizona earlier this year? What happened?
(Just posted this below and saw the new thread)
Torre lover, I will answer you despite your screenname!
TBS on DirectTv is 247.
Rebecca saw you post in the earlier thread on Beckett. I absolutely agree with you but it seems that a lot of pitchers have egos bigger than life and/or are fiercely competetive. Hell, they glower when they are taken out of tight games when they’ve loaded the bases! They feel they should be able to try to get out of it. What??? So it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Beckett is hurt and lying about it. He wants to pitch in the postseason. If he admit he’s hurt, he’ll be pulled.
Re: trade tumors – I think we’ve all been around long enough to know that about 99.9% of the trade rumors we read about are pure bull. I think reporters make most of them up to stimulate interest!
Anyway, there are trade rumors that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and those are the ones that I pay the least heed. It hasn’t bitten me yet (though I’m not saying it will never happen.) One of them is the Carlos Beltran rumor. Reading the organization tealeaves, on top of trusting my own eyes, there is no way the Yankees are trading Cano. No ifs ands or buts. It doesn’t matter that some of us (well not me in this case) think it sounds great. Logic tells you that the organization loves what Robby has to offer – AS WELL THEY SHOULD. He is gold glove calibre at second, and he hits for power. And he is young. Add to it that Cashman has already stated publicly that he wants to have Sui as his DH and Damon in center. Even if you want to think that he may end up with a platoon situation with Damon, you have to know that it won’t be platooning with a top-notch center who actually would be every-day play worthy – such as Beltran.
Until I hear otherwise from the mouth of the Yankee organization, Cano is a safe bet to stay in the Bronx. Again, there is no reason on God’s green earth to trade him, because you would then have to try to find someone of his calibre to replace him, with youth to boot – and that won’t come cheap. You don’t trade a valuable piece that you will only have to replace by giving more value away for it! That is like a dog chasing its tail.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
GO RAYS!
GO PHILS!
I have no idea Rebecca, I just looked at his stats and they are eye popping.
3.05 ERA, 56 innings, 66 Ks/21 walks and a 1.23 WHIP.
They could have found SOME role for him. Looks like he spent the early part of the season and the late part of the season in AZ but was in the minors for most of the summer.
Hughes updated line:
2.0 2 0 0 1 2 – 34 pitches/21 strikes, 2 SB against
Pete,
Thnaks for the lineups. It’s interesting that Cora is getting the start at short over Lowery and Rocco Baldelli is finally going to play. When Baldelli is heathy, he’s a huge upgrade over Gabe Gross.
Clare,
Top 2: Scherzer gave up a single, but nothing else. He’s racking up the K’s (3 through 2 innings).
Bottom 2: ground out, strikeout looking, single, stolen base, line out to LF. 34 pitches (21 strikes)
LOL. Sounds like Eckersly hates Fenway.
Hey everyone I miss it in here, I have a bad feeling about Lester pitching in Fenway today.
D’Backs blew a lot of late leads in August/September. Maybe if they used this kid as a closer, they would be in the playoffs instead of Torre.
I was rooting hard for them (the Dbacks) all year.
I will continue to say that I definitely see Phil Hughes as the face of the Yankee future.
Was thinking about Joba today and how it is too bad that he is really so cut out to be a starter. Can you imagine having someone ready to slip right into Mo’s roll on the day he is finally out of baseball (a day I can’t even begin to allow myself to think about…)
GO RAYS!!!
Al from Burger King,
Welcome back. Good win for your Jets yesterday. About a month away from hot stove and the CC sweepstakes heating up.
Drive 4-5,
Tito said he wants Lowrey off the bench to give them something late in the game. And force their hand a little re: the bullpen.
Lester is due to get hit.
go Rays
trisha – Well if he can’t hold up for 200 innings and his injuries are lingering, he will be the closer.
Next year is a big year for him. One more shoulder injury and he is probably moving to the pen for good.
I hope he can be a starter, he is dynamite. His 1-0 win against Beckett was a thing of beauty. But his injury history is concerning.
Rocco Baldelli is a free agent this year.
Rocco has a pre existing medical condition. He fits the Cashman protoype perfectly.
vinny-b,
So was Matsuzaka. In every freaking inning.
oh, man – I thought I was going to be able to watch Phil. I really want to know how he looks (don’t care about the hits as much as I do FB comamnd)
lol did Victorino really turn and stare at Torre immediately after Kuroda threw at his head? Thats what Beningo said.
This kid that just homered for the Javelinas is the first AFL player to be born in the ’90s. 2-0 lead for Phil to work with.
mel,
I like Alex Cora. He’s a good guy to have on the bench and can help a team defensively. He’s not much of a bat, but I’d much prefer to have Cora over Wilson Betemit.
“Al from Burger King,
Welcome back. Good win for your Jets yesterday. About a month away from hot stove and the CC sweepstakes heating up.”
Thanks Wilson. I know the CC stuff is premature, but as they say “dare to dream”.
schezer with 5 Ks. he is a stud.
Game Day is useless without velocity and/or pitch selection!!!
from the last thread
What if we trade Cano for Kemp. Sign Furcal for ss. Move Jeter to 2nd base. Use Hughes and some other prospects for Peavy and Gonzalez? Sign Lowe.
1b Gonzalez
2b Jeter
SS Furcal
3b Arod
Rf Nady
Cf Kemp
Lf Damon
dh Matsui/Posada
C Molina/Posada
Wang
Peavy
Lowe
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Drive,
SS’s been a problem for a while. Cora, he of the light bat, had a big hit in that Angels series.
Do the Sox only reserve their boos for the Yankees? The crowd’s very quiet, even for their own team. They’re trying to crank up the organ because the crowd sounds so pathetic. (no offense Drive)
Jackson with his 2nd K of the day. He is really struggling. Outside of his first game where he drove in 4, he has done nothing.
I’d do Hughes+++ for Peavy/Gonzalez
Z,
Totally agree. Sigh, Sheets.
Jackson needs to move down in the order and counter the pitching adjustments.
Victorino has a name as a hothead and high school drama queen — I’m sure he was staring at anybody he could find, with one eye on the camera angle! First thing after the game he was yapping about that stuff in the sideline interview, then once he was in the clubhouse he had a little hissy telling the reporters in there not to ask him any more about it and flouncing off in a huff when they did … like they had any other interest in him … ;-D
mel, i think the 4:30 start is screwing up their drinking schedule…
I guess every pitcher that throws very hard and K’s guys is a stud, like Kyle Farnsworth. I’m not even talking about this pitcher opposing Phil in particular (although there is more talk about him than Phil, oddly enough) – just in general.
Judging by how many 3 ball counts he is going to and how many pitches the hitters are fouling off… it appears he has the same problem he had in the majors. Spotty fastball command unable to put away hitters. The cutter really did nothing to help the latter. He might be falling too in love with it.
Without the standard gameday, it is hard to tell, but that appears to be the case.
S.o.S.27,
That’s just silly isnt it? Derek Jeter isnt going to move to second base at his age. Plus, if the knock on Derek is a lack of range, how does that improve the defense?In any event,it’s not happening.
The rest of your lineup and rotation is interesting.
The D’Backs probably held Scherzer back for arbitration problems or something.
He really looks like an excellent young pitcher. Had a lower ERA (in limited time) than Webb or Harren lol
Sea Net, how can you tell how many 3 ball counts Phil has been in? IMO, he seems like he’s pitching quite well -48 pitches, 30 strikes…..just 1 walk, in the first. Remember also that AZ favors the hitters
Haha I don’t see the problem with Hughes. He has a 5-1 groundball to flyball ratio, 3 K’s and only 1 walk. Three innings, no runs and 48 pitches.
So far so good. Some people are too picky or just don’t know pitching. Either way, its getting really old.
Phil seems to be doing good so far(going off of gameday). Wish I could actually watch him though..
SeaNet,
I’m following on GameDay too and have the same conclusion. He’s started behind in the count to almost half the batters and has thrown 3 balls in the dirt.
im listening to the game on the rays radio network. i dont know whats worse them or bosox but just the intro is enough to drive you nuts.
“WHERE were you when the RAYS went from worst to 1st?! WHERE were you when the RAYS beat the white sox in the ALDS?!”
not to mention sliced in their sound bites of walk offs and their retarded announcers yelling
Drive 4-5,
I was hoping he would take it for the team. His range to his right isnt that bad. If he refuses then make Furcal your 2nd baseman. Im sure he would make the move if the price is right. If he refuses than theres always O. Hudson.
I do however think that when its all said and done. Jeter will end up at first.
Joey’s Poodle,
Your account of the post-game is quite different from the account of one of the pool reporters who was on with Jason Smith last night.
He said he wasn’t going to take questions about the incident, so some guys left. The others stuck around and starting warming him up with some softball questions. He was coming around, opening up when some “clown from the peanut gallery” in the back asked about the incident straight out. In a joking manner, Victorino said, “Ah! That’s it. I warned you guys.”
The pool reporter had a good time telling the story and said that Victorino is a good guy.
Olney echoes this opinion of Victorino http://tinyurl.com/3urqno
Sea Net,
I agree. Following on Game Day, that appears to be the best conclusion to draw about him. Like seeing the GBs though.
There’s an article in Pinstripes Plus about Phil…..I can’t give the link, obviously, since you need to be a subscriber. However, in essence Phil seems to have quite a bit of confidence in the cutter and has basically completely scrapped the slider. Best of all, Phil seems pretty happy with the command and movement on his change change; he admits that he’s had the hardest time getting a feel for, but the interviewer describes Phil as having a “subtle confidence” in talking about the change. This is really very good news.
My father briefly met Shane Victorino about a month ago. He said Victorino was a nice guy…
Sherzer – 4 IP, 8 Ks
Only runs were that kid from the 90s that mel mentioned lol
Betsy, he scrapped the slider and switched to a cutter when he was rehabbing in the minors late this summer. He actually threw it a good bit in that last start in the majors. It seems like an average pitch but it could be very useful against lefties.
They targeted Victornio because if they did that to Rollins, Howard, or Burrell… they would have charged the mound and taken out Kuroda
Russell Martin is the guy who started it anyway, he is a hothead.
Scherzer at 88 pitches-he’s not last too much longer
Well, I’m following Pete’s link and it doesn’t give any details beyond what I posted.
AZ favors hitters?
Jackson obviously didn’t get the memo
**last=lasting
Patrick, yes I know about the cutter- it seems to be a pretty good pitch for him, esp. since he just picked it up.
I find that people are always nitpicking with Phil – if he pitches badly, it’s because he sucks. If he pitches well, then they start breaking it down because he can’t possibly be pitching well
“Russell Martin is the guy who started it anyway, he is a hothead.”
Myer started it. Martin just tried to even it up a little.
You can use gameday (that link that looks like a baseball mound right under the box score).
As I mentioned, it isin’t very detailed, but it tells you if each pitch is a ball, foul, strike looking, swinging strike etc.)
Kind of pointless without velocity readings or pitch selection. But Hughes is going to a lot of 3-ball counts and a lot of fouls like that guy said. Doesn’t tell you much beyond that on this gameday though.
Bottom line, Hughes has a manageable pitch count, only 1 walk and 8 ground outs. I don’t see how you can nitpick that. It seems like a lot of Yankee fans really want to see Hughes fail which makes no sense to me.
Thanks, Nitro. So far in the 4th, Phil has gotten two groundouts……..Remember that he’s undoubtedly working on his change and cutter, so that’s kind of to be expected. I like the 3 Ks and only 1 walk.
After 4 innings-Phil at 60 pitches.
Right, Patrick. Results don’t matter so much (although obviously it’s nice if he pitches well) in the AFL; Phil is there to get innings and work on his other pitches and that’s what he’s doing
“The Red Sox, he said, have had problems finding a catcher who can handle the knuckleball.”
this is something that amazes me to no end. catching a knuckleball is a teachable skill. as a bullpen catcher in seasons winter ball, i caught a knuckleball pitcher named danny boone . he was second in the international league in era one of those years and pitched for the major league orioles down the stretch one year knocking i think toronto out of the playoffs by beating them in a start. i went into spring training with him with the orioles because the mlb catchers didn’t want to catch him. the orioles were going to use him as a closer of all things. frank robinson hated the idea and sent danny back to triple a after he came into last inning of a tie spring training game and the leadoff runner got on on a past ball strikeout and went around the bases on three more passed balls.
paul casanova, who caught neikro’s knuckler, was a coach on the winter ball team. his advice to me on how to catch the knuckler was to imagine moving your hand the way you would on a beautiful woman’s breast. round and round.side to side. he said also like a windshield wiper back and forth. it wasn’t the usual advice, but i got the idea and had little trouble catching danny afterward.
catching the knuckler is a side to side circular motion. if you stab forward at the ball you have no chance. it won’t be where you’re reaching. why the red sox have no idea how to teach how to catch a knuckler is a good sign to me. maybe they aren’t as smart as everyone thinks.
… and hopefully they don’t hire paul casanova as a coach .
Sherzer with a 6 pitch inning. Still probably done for the day— very impressive outing. 9 Ks/ 6 innings.
“Bottom line, Hughes has a manageable pitch count, only 1 walk and 8 ground outs. I don’t see how you can nitpick that. It seems like a lot of Yankee fans really want to see Hughes fail which makes no sense to me.”
I don’t think people want to see him fail, they are just upset that he hasn’t lived up to Yankees “young roger clemens” moniker as if that was fair to begin with.
*two seasons of winter ball
Why don’t we draft any knuckle ball pitchers?
HR by Phoenix…..
“Why don’t we draft any knuckle ball pitchers?”
because.
It’s funny how far off guys like Giambi, Torre, and Posada were with Hughes. Young Rocket?
Then again, Giambi did say that Desalvo had filthy stuff, so clearly talent evaluation isin’t in his future lol
People need to chill with Phil-let the boy pitch and stop nitpicking every little throw based on what they are seeing on gameday. That means good and bad.
2-1 game now
Phil starting to struggle a bit in the 5th – first the HR, then an out, now a double
I’d say that you can’t judge an oft-injured 22 year old pitcher just yet, but I’d get laughed at.
I agree, SA – he’s working on pitches, but remember that Phil isn’t allowed to struggle
Ok, 5 full for Phil – 1 run overall. I wonder if he’ll come out for the 6th?
Have them moved Marquez to the pen as a Mendoza-role guy?
You guys are too funny. You’re making it sound like Phil gave up 5 runs in 1 inning when he’s only given up 1 run in 10 innings.
By all means, keep knocking Phil down, if it makes you feel good.
Meanwhile, Kevin Towers has blisters from texting Cashman so much.
mel,
Thanks for the updates – I’m just catching up (was actually working for a bit).
Max Sherzer done for the day, very good outing for him.
Juan Miranda 2-3, he has been on a tear lately.
Betsy October 13th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
I agree, SA – he’s working on pitches, but remember that Phil isn’t allowed to struggle
Oh I know, if every throw from him is not perfect-he’s a disaster!
I still believe Phil is gonna be kick butt pitcher and I have the patience. Everyone goes through their share of struggles.
Hi Rays!!!
uhhh randy,
Did the catching a knuckle ball help you in your personal life? Im going to go right now and ask my wife if i would do good in catching knuckle ball pitchers. I would think most cant catch them because they are too aggressive. Just my 2 cents.
Who is Triunfel? Which organization is he apart of?
Rays strike first.
mariners
Yep, Phil is the Titanic of pitchers and he’s taking the organization down with them (I really shouldn’t use this analogy as I’m a Titanic buff and it was a great tragedy, but……….)
Randy I, nice illustration on the art of catching a knuckler….I faced Charlie Hough twice and squared him up both times…..Played thousands of backyard whiffle ball games as a kid….I’ll say that helped, but I only looked at four pitches….Spring training games don’t count I guess
They should force Varitek to learn how to catch the knuckle.
Let’s remember that Phil had a no hitter going for us when he got injured. I know that he didn’t look play ready when he pitched at the beginning of the 2008 season, but we found out that he had a fractured rib (or something) that he had been pitching through. When he had his last starts for the Yanks I thought he looked great. I can’t imagine that the Yanks top draft pick has bottomed out and stinks.
I know what I saw when I saw him pitch at the end of the season. He’s the same hard-working mature kid that was pitching that no hitter in Cleveland, and he knows how to get strikes.
1. What’s not to like?
2. What trade that kind of young talent?
I bet we could have got a sweet deal if we had traded Jeff Marquez, Alan Horne and IPK a few years ago
Come on Matt Garza! Induce a strike out and then get a pop out or fly out – or any combination thereof!
Or ground outs too will do…
I think Hughes will someday be a solid number 3. However that day still seems far away if we miss out on CC I’d put him in a deal for Peavy as fast as I could. I’m sure most of us still have faith that Phil will be something, however will he be better than Peavy over the next few years?
randy I: interesting take (catching knuckleball)
what do you think of Bob Ueckers method?
X-man: Triunfel is a member of the Mariners, IIRC.
Want to feel old?
He was born in 1990.
sit down, Captain butt-head
Let’s stop bashing Phil for a few isolates struggles and let’s stop praising him for a few isolated good games.
Nothing to say about him until next season, if he is even in the rotation. It’s time for him to do his talking on the mound, one way or another.
Nice Garza
Most of this years college freshmen were born in 1990. I’m 28 and I feel so old in the classroom.
Al,
I agree 100%. He’ll be a very good #3 someday, maybe even as early as next year if he stays healthy.
But if we could get Peavy for him, I do it in a second.
Interesting that they are using Marquez out of the pen. I thought that would be his eventual destination anyway, as a Mendoza guy and somebody who can get groundballs.
What was Marquez during the regular season? Because it’s entirely possibly that each of the 5 MLB teams on the Javelinas has a pitcher they want to start.
“trisha
October 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Let’s remember that Phil had a no hitter going for us when he got injured”
was this before or after, his mechanics got screwed with ?
Should’ve went with Marquez. Back to back HR gives Hughes a ND.
Whoo Hoo, Upton!
Ohh, nice home run.
GOD YES
Baseball,a great sport.
Lester is being molested
Anyone one else quaking because it’s Lester on the mound?
YAWN!
Hey Sux, these aren’t your father’s Rays.
I admit (and if Sevrox comes around he will verify, since we were NY Times forum buddies since 1998 or so) that I have always rooted for the Rays as my second favorite team. I did it at first because like Mel, if you go against someone, I’m likely to back them. Also because I hated how they were trashed – I will always adopt orphans. And finally, I always saw how much talent they had on their team where bottom line left-brained idiots would only look at the W-L and hoot against them nonstop.
I’m loving these Rays. And their winning makes my heart happy.
vinny-b,
It’s widely reported (here, lol) that the mechanics were messed with in 2007. This may have been during his rehab. No? So that would be after the no-hit bid in Tejas.
“Jason Varitek is just killing Boston. It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what they do with him when he becomes a free agent.”
It will probably be ugly – especially if Boston is knocked out of playoffs.
“Al,
I agree 100%. He’ll be a very good #3 someday, maybe even as early as next year if he stays healthy.
But if we could get Peavy for him, I do it in a second.”
I think you would almost HAVE to do it. Phil needs time and patience something this city is not great at providing. Also Peavy is an Ace now and for the foreseeable future. Here are the numbers from his 07 Cy Young season: 19-6, 2.54 ERA, 240 K’s in 223.1 IP. Of course many people will argue that those stats are products of the weak NL West, however anyone who has watched Peavy pitch knows hes a top 5 ML pitch. If the deal is there do it immediately.
vinny-b, from what I understand they screwed with his mechanics after that no hitter start in Cleveland.
I doubt SD would trade Peavy for Hughes though. They could get so many better offers if Peavy was in the block.
We’d have to sweeten the pot somehow.
mel: ok. Makes sense.
Rays will not be denied…..
Not having a whit to do with Hughes or anyone else, I have no trust that NL pitching is going to work in the AL. But that’s my issue to deal with.
Rays- Phils
WHAT A FRAKIN’ RIOT!!!!!
High fives for all my Yankee fan buds, but especially Drive and Randy!!!!!
WOO HOO!!!!!
earlier post:
vinny-b
October 13th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Lester is due to get hit.
go Rays
“Rays- Phils”
vrsce, I called that one from the beginning. Well the beginning of the postseason anyway!
vinny-b
Good call on Lester!
Varitek’s batting skills have seriously eroded but Boston fans keep saying that he’s superior in calling a game.
That may be true to a point but he’s been a hole in their lineup for the last 2 seasons and it remains to be seen if Theo Epstein holds on to his reasoning that it’s better to let a player go a year too soon than a year too late.
Over the winter, Boston’s No. 1 priority should be to find a top flight catcher, something they should have started to do 2 years ago. The asking price will be high.
GO RAYS!!!
on a crazy business trip, but just have to check-in on that…
It’s as quiet as a crypt at Fenway.
Mark Burhlee no-hit that same Texas team 2 weeks earlier in 2007, FYI.
Buchholz no hit a team too.
Not an indicator of greatness. Either is 3 innings in a playoff game down 0-2 in the series with the stadium deflated and down 2 runs in the game. Hughes pitched 1 inning after he had the lead in that game. Ervin Santana’s relief appearance against us in Anaheim in game 5 was even more impressive, yet nobody used that as a way to validate him as a prospect.
Let’s see what he becomes. So far, we have seen nothing conclusive either way.
“I doubt SD would trade Peavy for Hughes though. They could get so many better offers if Peavy was in the block.
We’d have to sweeten the pot somehow.”
I agree, they would want more. Hughes/Sanchez/IPK something along those line. Peavy is worth it if we miss the boat with CC.
END THE RED SOX-DODGERS WORLD SERIES HOPES!!!!
What is impressive about the Tampa bay team is that for a young lineup, they don’t miss pitchers mistakes….
“It’s as quiet as a crypt at Fenway.”
It always is when they start to lose. Its just encoded in them a result of 86 years of failure, those scars are not faded because of 04 and 07. No matter what Boston fans say these traits are still apparent.
“trisha – RAYS IN 3! (yes I know it’s a 7 game series…)
October 13th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Good call on Lester!”
lol. Thanks
: )
I see Sanchez is in the Arizona doghouse after his latest blowup.
I hope he is doing some work on the side atleast, otherwise he will implode again the next time he goes out there because he barely pitches.
Boston fans (and idiot writers like Shaughnessy) are still trying to convince themselves that they are a dynasty.
craig sager, bringing back the 1920′s look. Or, trying to
How can you bring up a scrub like Gardner and compare him to a 5 tool stud like Upton?
The happiest moment of this offseason will come when both Camp Torre and the Sux are eliminated.
Boston fans and Shaughnessy have not convinced the Rays…
“Boston fans (and idiot writers like Shaughnessy) are still trying to convince themselves that they are a dynasty.”
2 titles in 4 yrs is dynasty like isn’t it?
“How can you bring up a scrub like Gardner and compare him to a 5 tool stud like Upton?”
pete wasnt comparing gardner to upton..just saying that youth is what got the rays where they are…
“COL 88
October 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
I see Sanchez is in the Arizona doghouse after his latest blowup.”
our Sanchez?
“craig sager, bringing back the 1920’s look. Or, trying to”
Sager’s wardrobe puts Walt Clyde Frazier and Frank Sinatra to shame.
Nice play by Crawford to hold the elf to a single.
Using his hops to climb the ladder and barehand the ball off the Green Monstah.
““Boston fans (and idiot writers like Shaughnessy) are still trying to convince themselves that they are a dynasty.â€
2 titles in 4 yrs is dynasty like isn’t it?”
No. A dynasty implies a team that contended for a title every year. Sox were swept by the White Sox in 05 and they didn’t make they playoffs in 06. That is hardly a dynasty.
If you think Phil is at best a #3, then yes, you deal him for Peavy. However, the Yankees feel he is a top of the rotation starter (so do I – now, if he doesn’t show enough in the next few years to show that he’s got that capability, I will gladly admit ZI was wrong). Therefore, I don’t think Phil is going anywhere.
AL: : )
yes. Noticed he’s went conservative, in the playoffs. Saving the runway for NBA season.
“The happiest moment of this offseason will come when both Camp Torre and the Sux are eliminated.”
Me too!!!!!
“2 titles in 4 yrs is dynasty like isn’t it?”
Hardly. And it’s not 2 years, it’s 3 years.
4 x 4 – tell ya what. I have already seen what Hughes has and I love it. That won’t change whether he is with the Yanks or someone else. But I will never trammel on your right to wait if you need to see more.
GO BIG POPUP!!!
Pukelisp always looks like he’s going to take a dump on the plate.
“If you think Phil is at best a #3, then yes, you deal him for Peavy. However, the Yankees feel he is a top of the rotation starter (so do I – now, if he doesn’t show enough in the next few years to show that he’s got that capability, I will gladly admit ZI was wrong). Therefore, I don’t think Phil is going anywhere.”
Unfortunately by the time “the next few years” passes his trade value will be lower than Stephon Marbury’s.
“Pukelisp always looks like he’s going to take a dump on the plate.”
when Joba is pitching he actually does.
“With both of these teams in the division, it’s hard not to watch these games and not think about the Yankees.”
Not hard for me at all. But I’m thinking that’s because I always have extra energy to follow the Sux like a plague and wish them nothing but bad! Makes my every day and night.
I truly don’t know how much of this I would really be watching if I didn’t have teams that I wanted to see dumped on their heads! Maybe I would be watching just to root for the Rays, but I don’t think I would watch every inning of every game.
“when Joba is pitching he actually does.”
Laughing my little sux-hating butt off!!!
Wouldn’t it be so satisfying to see the Rays go through the Sux AND Torre to win a championship? Now, I hope the Phillies beat the Dodgers brains in, but I wouldn’t be too upset if Tampa took them down either.
I thought Lester had eclipsed Beckett as the best postseason pitcher of all time.
Does Dice-K hold that title now?
good point, Re: Josh Hamilton
“No. A dynasty implies a team that contended for a title every year. Sox were swept by the White Sox in 05 and they didn’t make they playoffs in 06. That is hardly a dynasty.”
They were in game 7 of the alcs in 2003. They were in the playoffs in 05 and they are currently in the alcs in 2008. Coupled with titles in 04 and 07. With a great young core there. That’s not the making of a dynasty?
This may have been brought up in an older post but I was curious anyway. What’s the scouting report look like for Phil Coke. Does he project as a starter potentially? I figure the Yanks will use him out of the pen next year but what about his ceiling? Given a shot to be a starter could he possibly be as dominant as Lester down the line?
Cashman didn’t trade Hughes for Santana. A lefty, in his prime who dominated in the AL and begged to come to NY.
WHy would he trade him a yr later for a NL West pitcher with a violent delivery who is a small town guy and doesn’t want to be in NY?
Al, LOL. Exactly.
With prospects, you have to determine what they are and trade him when their value is the highest if you feel they are overvalued or overachieving. You cannot wait until they fail and then try and trade them. What organization would trade anything good for a failed prospect?
Look at the Mets with Milledge and Phil Humber. Those guys in 2006 were being discussed to acquire the likes of Oswalt, Haren, Bedard, etc. Now, one got traded for a role player like Ryan Church and a 4th piece in the Santana trade, when at one time he could have headlined that package.
Thats where talent evaluation comes in. You have to be able to identify what prospects are and look at intangibles and such. Cashman has not demonstrated he has that ability. He probably thinks just because Hughes was a #1 prospect in 2006 that it is his birthright to be an ace.
“Indy
October 13th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
They were in game 7 of the alcs in 2003. They were in the playoffs in 05 and they are currently in the alcs in 2008. Coupled with titles in 04 and 07. With a great young core there. That’s not a dynasty?”
no.
“Cashman didn’t trade Hughes for Santana. A lefty, in his prime who dominated in the AL and begged to come to NY.
WHy would he trade him a yr later for a NL West pitcher with a violent delivery who is a small town guy and doesn’t want to be in NY?”
Peavy has never been seriously injured in his career. Peavy is as good as Santana. Also they wouldn’t have to pay Peavy 140 million on top of the prospects. Its just my opinion obviously.
Well, vinny, if they win this yr are they a dynasty? how about next yr? or the yr after?
The Sox have the young core and the winning pedigree here. This is a dynasty. You may be blinded by Sox hate but wake up. 2 titles in 6 yrs(with a chance at 3) and 5 playoffs in 6 yrs is pretty dynastic.
Please Al do some research.
Peavy spent some time on the DL this season with elbow trouble.
Isn’t that a pretty serious injury for a pitcher???
The fans are the one who are ruining their own expectations of Phil.
Just let him freaking develop. Where was Wang when he was 22? Where was he when he was 27-28? The ace of the Yankees. Somewhere in between he got passed up Arizona in the RJ trade. You want to question talent evaluators, question Arizona’s. They passed on Wang and Cano.
Or you could just let these guys develop. The cream will always rise to the top. Sometimes it curdles, like Tabata, and you trade it away.
You never know where the help’s going to come from. Coke, Wang, etc. But still there’s some guys you stick with. You stick with Phil because he’s been good from the get go. I don’t think he had control issues when he was in high school or in the minors.
It will quite interesting to see how the Red Sox deal with Varitek. If they do not re-sign him, will he be discarded, dumped in the scrap heap, subjected to media criticism and abuse for eroded skills etc, as many preceding him have? Ask Mo Vaughn, Clemens, Nomar and Manny…yes, Manny, how this “despicable” organization treats its ex’s, or those who have the nerve to say they no longer wish to be part of the organization for whatever reason.
thought I would check in with everyone- remind me to post about how I met joba at the last Yankees-red sox series! On business trip now.
Indy give it up. We all said no so it’s no. Now if you keep it up you can go to bed without supper!
I had already designated myself official dynasty designator, and they weren’t getting dynasty status even if they took this year. So with your definitions they are not even in the running.
“How Brett Gardner and Austin Jackson come along could really change the Yankees for the better.”
Im kind of hoping Cashman gets shut out of any reasonable CF options so Gardner can get a shot at having it. I could see him going into spring training with alot of confidence and winning the position. If he played well for us it could mean alot to this team.
Hey rb15! Good to see you around. When you come back from your business trip I will look forward to hearing about you meeting our sweetheart Joba.
“Thats where talent evaluation comes in. You have to be able to identify what prospects are and look at intangibles and such. Cashman has not demonstrated he has that ability. He probably thinks just because Hughes was a #1 prospect in 2006 that it is his birthright to be an ace.”
Well that is part of the problem. Cashman is now forever affiliated with Hughes for good or bad because he held Hughes out of the Santana deal. If I were Cashman I would try to make even by getting Peavy. Santana is gone, hes a Met. Cash had that shot and decided against it and now he is stuck with Phil unless he goes out and gets a dominant pitcher in return for him.
It is reported that Cashman is not watching the playoffs, simply checking in from time to time. If he chose to study his most immediate adversaries, he might learn something as to what type of ingredients are necessary in this day and age to put a winning team on the field; especially, the Rays. Absolute arrogance…and stupidity.
A dynasty is an organization that’s won 26 World Championships.
Will this score hold up? It’ll be a big blow to the Sox if it does.
The only dynasty that the Boston Red Sox have claim to is The Wild Card…..The do dominate that …..
Jackson is hitting .143 with a million strikeouts in a band box league.
He is far away, do not pencil in him for the next 20 years in CF.
Gardner deserves a shot, but if he struggles, you better have a trade lined up somewhere by June for another CF. Replacing Abreu with Gardner is not a recipe for success.
But neither Jax or Gardner are anywhere close to Upton’s level. Upton is a star, a top draft pick. Jackson is Mike Cameron at best, Gardner is a .250 hitting version of Pierre with less contact at best. Neither are long term answers, IMO.
“harwood
October 13th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Im kind of hoping Cashman gets shut out of any reasonable CF options so Gardner can get a shot at having it. I could see him going into spring training with alot of confidence and winning the position. If he played well for us it could mean alot to this team”
+ 1000 pts
“Please Al do some research.
Peavy spent some time on the DL this season with elbow trouble.
Isn’t that a pretty serious injury for a pitcher???”
Yes, it is. However he is not constantly injured, he is 27 and this is the first year he has been injured. Phil is 22 and has seen more DL time than most veterans.
“A dynasty is an organization that’s won 26 World Championships.”
“The only dynasty that the Boston Red Sox have claim to is The Wild Card…..The do dominate that …..”
Hughes will probably develop into a very good starter…in 2-3 years. However, if Peavy is really available and Hughes is required to complete the deal, it should be done…without a second thought. To get something of value, you must part with some worth.
reacher,
agree 100%. cashman has too much of an ego to watch the playoffs and realize how far away his plan is compared to the other teams and he refuses to change.
J*n Jester. lol
“what do you think of Bob Ueckers method?”
vinny b-
that was the one( run back to the screen and pick it up) that i used before casanova’s method.
” I would think most cant catch them because they are too aggressive.”
precisely why varitek isn’t that good catching the knuckleball either. i’m not saying it’s because of this that his wife wanted a divorce, but you never know.
“I faced Charlie Hough twice and squared him up both times…..Played thousands of backyard whiffle ball games as a kid…”
pat m-
i would never underestimate the value of whiffleball. we played a form of it where you pick a mlbteam and had to imitate every hitters stance on the team you picked. i learned how to switch hit and could do a very good dick mcauliffe imitation. we all picked the tigers if we didn’t get the yankees because we wanted to imitate his stance and swing. mcauliffe was from connecticut by the way.
I’m actually surprised that the Rays aren’t running a lot more. Stealing bases is their claim to fame!
I’ve been pre-occupied the last few days, so I just turned the tv on to see if the game was on – and it’s 5-0 Rays??!!!!
Whew. Coulda knocked me over with a feather. 5-0 Rays at Fenway. Wow. Very cool.
Pete-
I think Cash knows what the Yankees have to do going forward – he talks so much about getting more “athletic” and you have to believe he’s talking about guys like Upton. You also hear Joe Girardi talk glowingly about the Tampa Bay team – especially their defense and how they cover so much ground. Now, they just have to execute – put that knowledge, that realization into action. I think they will, but it will take time, and we have to be patient.
How can you seriously mention Brett Gardner and BJ Upton in the same paragraph???
I don’t think anyone is saying no to Hughes for Peavy at all. But SD probably would.
If Cash could get him and he agreed to waive his NTC (his agent has given hints that he would), then it will be done tomorrow. But SD probably wants more for their ace other than an oft injured prospect like Hughes. They could get a much better package from teams like the Rangers, Braves, Brewers etc.
Kyle: AJax will be a very decent to fine, center fielder. IMO the comparison to Mike Cameron is a poor one. Cameron became a free swinger, after his 3 HR in 1 game performance. While Jackson is working on being patient, and his strikeouts have been ‘looking’
Too funny. As if Cashman’s going to admit he’s watching the Sux play. You guys are so gullible.
Cashman doesn’t have to watch the playoffs t know what Tampa has done.
Dynasty? I always thought that dynasties involve a core group of teammates (’96-2001 Yankees; Dallas Cowboys of the early 1990s; Jordan’s Bulls ’91-’93, ’96-98; ect, ect..).
This current Redsox team has little in common with the 2004 version.
Lester had been pitching well in the playoffs. I was surprised (and happily so) that the Sox are loosing. Hope it stays that way.
And let’s go Phillies!
I’m sorry, but I think that it is sacrilege to post the lineups for BOS and TB on a Yankees blog. If people want to see the lineups, let them to go ESPN or MLB.com. They should not be posted here.
Just my opinion.
“It is reported that Cashman is not watching the playoffs, simply checking in from time to time. If he chose to study his most immediate adversaries, he might learn something as to what type of ingredients are necessary in this day and age to put a winning team on the field; especially, the Rays. Absolute arrogance…and stupidity.”
What kind of impact do you think Cashman watching the playoffs will have on the organization? Lets be honest they got to where they are because they have good farm systems and even better scouts. Cashman has only been paying attention to the farm for the past year or so. Also he had a chance to make this team better than the Sux and he decided to sit on his pride and roll the dice on Phil/IPK and Melky.
Comparing Jackson and Gardner to Upton?
Jackson/Gardner are role players, Upton is a budding superstar. He was a 2nd round pick too.
Y26,
I doubt that Peavy would waive his no trade clause for the teams that you mention; but he apparently would if Pete Caldera has correctly reported his conversation with Peavy’s agent….for an extension with “NY” $$$$ tacked on.
Um – BJ Upton didn’t arrive fully formed. Give Jackson a chance to adjust. It’s a process. I know that sounds boring and tedious, but it’s true.
Why is this game going so slowly?
Lester has settled in nicely. Great rebound after a rough start, keeping them in the game. He hasn’t let the Rays get the big knockout hit yet even though they have had runners on base every inning.
“randy l
October 13th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
“what do you think of Bob Ueckers method?â€
that was the one( run back to the screen and pick it up) that i used before casanova’s method”
enjoyed the post, Randy.
mel, I think it’s a rule of thumb ALL Red Sox games go slowly.
Well considering all of us are watching the game and he is in Fenway covering the game, Pete decided to make a game thread for it. I don’t see anything wrong.
You guys noticed that Caray and Buck are now pro-Tampa.
Nothing to do with the score of course.
Chip was really excited on those HR calls.
“How can you seriously mention Brett Gardner and BJ Upton in the same paragraph???”
because the high cholesterol in donuts can impair brain function.
( not that i haven’t had my share of krispy cremes too)
“Jackson/Gardner are role players”
not gonna talk about gardner..but how in the world can you already write jackson off…nobody knows how hes gonna turn out..he could be a bust or he could be star…chances are it will be somewhere in the middle…funny
Rebecca & Mel -
Oh, man it’s soooo true. The Red Sox do NOT know how to play a quick game. Just can’t do it!
The worst thing Cashman can do is rush Jackson like he did Hughes. And Jackson hasn’t showed anywhere near the dominance as a hitter that Hughes did as a pitcher.
He needs to go out and get a stop gap CF. He cannot expect for Gardner to “hold the fort” while Jackson gets ready. He can’t let a hot streak in AAA fool him either— Jackson is a very streaky player. He hit 5 of his 9 HRs this year in 1 week. He needs to demonstrate consistency for an extended period of time before he gets brought up. He needs to show better plate discipline, less Ks, more consistent power/SB abilities, and the ability to hit breaking balls. I’m very curious to see how Cashman handles Jackson.
Is Ortiz choking???
Anyone think that “Jas*n B*y” might hit a 5-run homer?
Ooo!
Check out FAT POPUP!!!
We’re aging ourselves Randy…..I’ll admit to copying “The Rog “, right down to his one arm release & follow through…..Those were some very good Tiger teams….You know about Eddie Brinkman ??? Real good SS….
I love how the Boston is already winning this WS. Whats the score going to be 19-0?
Call yourselves a dynasty for all I care. You just embarrass yourself by doing it. You have none of the same players from 04 still and you crawled into the post season this year as a wild card. All you have is a good organization. Why cant you be happy with that?
Yes, Cashman has demonstrated over the past 5 years or so that he is an excellent judgment of talent and well knows what it would take to go all the way. That includes responsibility for (i) talent evaluation, (ii) training and teaching the prospects the “Yankee” way (has this ever been defined), (iii) selecting a competent manager and coaching staff keeping in mind the requisite synergy with team personnel, and perhaps of most immediate importance (iv) a roster which has the capacity to win. Cashman has failed miserably. Yes, he need not observe and study in the moment what his principal competitors are doing…there is nothing to learn.
My feeling is that this year was a very non-representative year for the Yankees offense. If they get a good 1B with both offensive and defensive skills, they can probably go into spring training with Melky and Brett competing for CF. At least they bring defense to the table We know thay’re both lacking at the plate. There is a chance that a stop-gap CF will be brought into play as well. If the other players in the lineup do what they’re expected to do, they really can allow Gardner or Cabrera to “hold the fort.” Especially if they have a solid pitching staff for the first time in however many years.
if Cashman makes the proper trades/FA aquisitions, Gardner will be fine in CF.
While Cashman was being “Twinkied” about in the Santana fiasco, the Rays were quietly consummating a most important deal with the Twins amidst little fanfare for Garza and Barrett. The deal speaks for itself, and the competence of Ray management.
The Cowboys get their on scroll on ESPN?
Trisha -
NO – Jason Bay is going to hit a 6-run HR. Walkoff.
Laura, I am assuming that the only reason Pete did that is because he was actually assigned to cover the game and is probably used to automatically posting lineups when he is covering a game.
Al from BK( JETS 3-2, Favre 13TD’s 6INT, Show CC the money!)
October 13th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
“Bottom line, Hughes has a manageable pitch count, only 1 walk and 8 ground outs. I don’t see how you can nitpick that. It seems like a lot of Yankee fans really want to see Hughes fail which makes no sense to me.â€
I don’t think people want to see him fail, they are just upset that he hasn’t lived up to Yankees “young roger clemens†moniker as if that was fair to begin with.
______________________________________________________
At the age of 22, Roger Clemens was only the young Roger Clemens. It took about 4 years for him to become Roger Clemens.
The fact that the Rays may win this series should be no surprise. The season series and the first 2 games were all close.
Big Droopy misses his compadre, no?
anyone believe the dodgers will win the NL pennant? Or will the phillies hold on?
O/T –
Was Bernie Williams injured in 2003?
Doreen, perhaps, if the “1B with both offensive and defensive skills” is Teixiera.
“NO – Jason Bay is going to hit a 6-run HR. Walkoff.”
If this game goes the way it looks like it’s going to, it assures the Rays will get back to the Trop.
I’m loving life right about now!
Doreen,
Isn’t it J*son F’in B*y or something?
i don’t think ortiz will ever be the force he was before. he has the kind of body that goes fast, and the value of manny hitting behind him was huge. this red sox team is no longer scary offensively.
i really hope the yankees sign manny to hit behind arod.
What I want to see from Phil Hughes is the ability to get beyond the 5th inning. I think he’s going to be good. He’s got to get a bit more economical.
“Big Droopy misses his compadre, no?”
I’d say Big Droopy more misses the pitches he used to get when his compadre was still here!
Mel, absolutely. Ortiz misses not only “the Manny” who protects him, but also, and perhaps of greater importance, “the Manny” who is also his good buddy. His wrist may still bother him, but the problem goes much deeper.
mel -
Oh! Right. J*son F*in B*y!
I still can’t believe how seamlessly he’s fit into Boston. But then you look at his face and you realize he has “the look.”
The Brook Shields commercial is getting in my nerves. Almost as bad as The Edge commercials.
“Isn’t it J*son F’in B*y or something?”
YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME!!!!!!
reacher –
Aha! You cracked my code!!
Randy I am one of the few who agree with you. Given the animus to Manny, it will not happen, tho A-rod would clearly thrive.
randy l -
You don’t think Youkilis and Pedroia are an offensive force? I know they’re not the Manny/Ortiz tandem, but they’re pretty good.
trisha – RAYS IN 3! (yes I know it’s a 7 game series…)
you do not need someone of cano’s talent level to replace him.
answer one question.are the yankees better with peavey and an average second baseman or cano and an average pitcher?
we should no by know that you’re offense has to be just good enough.you’re pitching has to be the best or close to it.
long story short if the yankees can get a good young pitchermfirst baseman or centerfielder cano is as good as gone.
no player is untradable.
i would trade cano and a top prospect strait up for adrian gonzalez.he put up arod numbers this year and is 26 yrs old.
i love the british commercial, with the man and the large umbrella. It magical.
you may take my man-card, now
Why couldn’t the Rays do this to Dice-BB?
“But then you look at his face and you realize he has “the look.â€
B*y, Kots*y, and Pedroi* look like street urchins from Oliver.
bru -
I think the question is how Peavy translates to the AL East. He’s a great-ish pitcher in the NL West. We’ve seen so many pitchers fall to their knees in the AL East. Is he worth the risk? What if he’s only average in the AL East?
i still think the sox have a late comeback in them.
Question-Why isn’t Kennedy pitching in the AFL also?
Trisha -
You forgot B*ck*tt.
If there is a deal for Peavy, I doubt that the Padres would have any interest in Cano. The Padres want to shed salary, thus, Cano’s would be too burdensome. They want players who, as yet, are not arbitration eligible.
I never realized how easy it is to get the Boston fans out of the game.
“Why couldn’t the Rays do this to Dice-BB?”
Because it made the Sux overwhelming self confidence that much sweeter when they thought that they had waltzed into the Trop and were going to hold court the rest of the way through.
“You forgot B*ck*tt.
”
I am crying from laughing so hard!!!!
gardner got hot his last callup.
he batted around or over 300 with a nice amount of steals,rbi’s and runs scored.
the prospects that are under the radar are the ones that suprise you.don’t give up on him yet.
he is exactly what the yankees have been missing.a young,hungry player who loves the game.
S.A., IPK sez he doesn’t need it. There was a sighting of IPK playing frisbee with his chocolate lab, “Gopher”, at the beach at Huntington Beach this afternoon.
question: who are the announcers for this game – they are a bit on the irritating side…
Forget the Peavy thing. They aren’t trading Hughes and Cano for anyone. If Beane traded Haren for 6 minor leaguers why would the Yankees give up an all star signed to a reasonable contract and a potential frontline pitcher?
Cashman will not trade Hughes. Get it thru your heads. Root for the kid to succeed because he will be here.
I just realized that Austin Jackson is just 6 months older than my oldest daughter. First, boy, do I feel old. Second – you know, people just have to be patient. The expectations on these kids is unbelievable.
Bru, I would want a great pitcher and a great 2B. I never believe in trading an angel that you know for a devil that you don’t. I just think Robby is too important to the future of the Yanks to even consider trading him. Look we are looking at FAs and we have a ton of money coming off the book. Why even think about trading away an important piece?
Just my opinion.
“West Coast Guy
October 13th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
S.A., IPK sez he doesn’t need it. There was a sighting of IPK playing frisbee with his chocolate lab, “Gopherâ€, at the beach at Huntington Beach this afternoon”
lol
Rishi – I know two of them are Buck Martinez and Ron Darling. Don’t know the third.
“They aren’t trading Hughes and Cano for anyone.”
Indy, I absolutely agree with that assessment. I don’t think they would go anywhere near trading either.
Indy
October 13th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
“Boston fans (and idiot writers like Shaughnessy) are still trying to convince themselves that they are a dynasty.â€
2 titles in 4 yrs is dynasty like isn’t it?
________________________________________________________
Tutankhamun had a longer “dynasty ” the the Red Sox had.
“the Rays were quietly consummating a most important deal with the Twins amidst little fanfare for Garza and Barrett. The deal speaks for itself, and the competence of Ray management.
the twins didn’t do badly on the trade either. after a slow start delmon young came around, and brendan harris had a nice year filling in all over the infield. it was a good trade for both teams.
garza’s know it all attitude where he wouldn’t listen to coaches didn’t fit into the twins team first philosophy.
one side benefit the rays and twins get from trading with each other is they both get young players who are taught to play in the minors. both have good minor league teaching systems. in a little noticed at bat bartlett moved two runners over who later scored in the rays win the other night. that’s twins and rays baseball.
West Coast Guy October 13th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
S.A., IPK sez he doesn’t need it. There was a sighting of IPK playing frisbee with his chocolate lab, “Gopherâ€, at the beach at Huntington Beach this afternoon.
lmao
Doreen
to many what if’s.we will never know.becket made the move nicely.
all i am saying is that if you have a chance to better you’re pitching staff you do it,especially with a young pitcher.
you can’t win the world series with bad pitching or even middle of the pack pitching.
all i hear is the yankees will never trade cano.i would trade him in a second for the right player.as a matter of fact i don’t see the yankees getting much in the trade market without including cano.
i think cashman is smart enough to realize that even cano could be traded.
i think only joba is off limits,that’s it.
Thanks, Doreen – the one with the “interesting” accent mostly.
Could be that they are saying things I would just assume a baseball fan would know…
Here’s a thought. The Rays have developed some awesome talent. The Rays have had the benefit of great draft picks. The kids have come up and done one hell of a job.
Do the same kids come up to the Yankees and have difficulty? Is it so much easier to achieve one’s talent level on a team like the Rays because there is hardly any pressure to achieve – if you know what I mean?
Just a thought.
Vinny, speaking of “Gopher” my sources tell me that after IPK completes his “afternoon in the sun”, he is to meet with his good buddy from Westminster HIgh…the “other” Ian..Ian Stewart, that is, who wants to perfect his homerun swing for the friendly confines of Coors, and who better to toss them up but IPK.
My sources also tell me that IPK has been seen checking out Petco..a remarkably beautiful park with a “sunning area”. IPK, so we are told, will ask for inclusion in the Peavy package provided that in his non-starting days he have a Clemens proviso in his contract to allow him to go to the beach.
that’s it for the daily IPK update from sunny SoCal.
“They aren’t trading Hughes and Cano for anyone.â€
“Indy, I absolutely agree with that assessment. I don’t think they would go anywhere near trading either.”
I’m not so sure about half of that statement. I think that if someone proposed a super deal that addressed several of the Yankees issues, they’d move Cano (I wouldn’t, but Cashman might). I think they keep Hughes.
The only youngster they will NEVER consider trading is Joba.
I love how the Boston is already winning this WS. Whats the score going to be 19-0?”
Kinda reminds me of how people around here were talking about Hughes and Kennedy being AT LEAST 10 games winners this past season.
This Peavy trad talk is interesting.
I’d say one of the main reasons why many yankee fans are down on Hughes is his velocity. He sits 91-93 and many people (like Michael Kay…) are convinced he just doesn’t have the stuff to be a front line starter.
This season while pitching with a broken rib for most of his major league innings Hughes average fastball velocity was 91mph.
Jake Peavy’s on the other hand is an absolute ace. The kind of guy Hughes just won’t be.
Peavy’s average fastball velocity this year – 92mph. Last year – 92 mph. Year before – 92 mph.
Reading people’s impressions of Peavy I get the sense people think he’s the kind of power pitcher that Joba is. He’s not. That’s not Peavy at all.
Stuff wise Peavy is probably closer to Hughes than he is to Joba.
Not a knock on Peavy in any way. And I’m in no way saying that Hughes is as good as Peavy is. No comparison between them.
But at the same time, I’m not sure if people have a good sense of how Peavy throws. He has a very good fastball but it’s not Josh Beckett’s. It’s not even AJ Burnett’s. It’s his whole repertoire that he depends on, especially his slider (which he also doesn’t throw that hard).
There are many different ways to be a top flight pitcher. Dominant velocity isn’t a requirement. It helps but there’s different ways of doing it.
They even have someone with “the look” singing God Bless *meric*.
Devils/Rangers on.
LET’S GO DEVILS!
bru
Any position player can be traded. Heck, any player can be traded. I could see the Yankees trading Cano, but the deal would have to be huge. Beckett did make the move that’s true, but more pitchers seem to have trouble switching leagues than don’t, and the AL East is particularly troublesome. I’m just not convinced Peavy is the missing piece.
But no American League team is going to trade a pitcher to the Yankees without it hurting far too much. So, I guess it would behoove the Yankees to do a long, hard look at Peavy.
I thought the Yankees were the only team who did God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch. Now I’ve seen it done in LA and Boston. And so far, Kate Smith is better than what I’ve seen (and I don’t love the Kate Smith version at all). Is this only for the playoffs, or do these teams do it all the time?
5 4 1 1 1 3
What’s so solid about that line?
If he’s working on his stuff, great.. but 5 innings, solid? I wouldn’t go that far. Add another 2 innings on there and freeze the other digits and he’s got a solid start.
Doreen,
The other day someone said they saw Jeter on PBS talking about his Italian heritage (who knew?). Coincidentally, a few hours earlier I was flipping throught the channels and stopped on PBS. There was this bald guy with an incredibly large head, large flapping ears, and a very large ring on his right hand.
Any guesses who that was?
Trisha -
No, not quite “the look.” But close .
man, I can’t stand that f*cking Jas*n B*y.
If the Rays can add on some more runs, I hope to see them just drill him right between the eyes .
trisha – RAYS IN 3! (yes I know it’s a 7 game series…)
i respect you’re opinion but for the right player(s) any player is tradeable and thank god cashman is smart enough to realize that i hope.
i am sure there are dozens of players you would trade cano for.
how do we know he will return to form? we don’t.
would you trade cano and a prospect or two for adrian gonzalez who hit 36 hr,119 rbi,103 runs scored?
that is more than double cano’s 2008 production,he is 26 yrs old and has a similar contract.
all that i am saying is anything is possible.a lot of people are claiming thjat the yankees will never trade cano.they may be in for a rude awakening.
none of us know anything about what the yankees might do.
Scherzer’s line is much more impressive. 9K’s in 5 innings.
West Coast:
you right. Petco would be perfect
: )
Doreen, well “the look” in terms of not being extremely attractive! The guy who sang the song had a nose like a pig!
Peter you can’t really compare Gardner and Austin Jackson to what Tampa did with their picks.
Longoria, Upton, Hamilton were all either the #1 overall pick or close to it. The only way the Yankees are going to get a #1 overall pick is if Sabathia signs with the Angels and Cashman signs Burnett and Lowe.
bru I hear you. And I might end up being surprised, but I think that the Yankees consider Cano untouchable. Again, they are more likely to be players in the FA market than the trading market, and they have the bucks. Whyever give up one of your best players – and I definitely see Robby that way.
Just my opinion.
It can only be imagined how good the Rays would be had they not allowed Josh Hamilton to leave in the Rule 5 draft in the winter of 2007. This may have [forced] a move of B.J. Upton to rightfield.
I can’t believe people are ripping Hughes. The AFL is a developmental league with expanded rosters. Starters are on pitch counts and/or innings counts because other guys need to get their work in.
Further… he’s 22! Stop expecting the world from this kid every single time he pitches. He’s developing, he’s working on his cutter, etc. Try and have some perspective.
Does it seem that the hideous voiced one (is that Albert’s son?) is so jonesing for the Sux to get something started?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Loser announcer.
“You don’t think Youkilis and Pedroia are an offensive force?”
doreen-
after his third full year you’d think cano was a force too. things happen ,the league adjusts. pedroia has had two good years. lets see him do it for three or four before saying he’s a perennial all star. i personally don’t think he can hit low and away after really up and in. i’m just waiting for teams to start doing that. it turns him into a singles hitter.
youkillis is 29 years old. he’s had one really good year. same thing. let’s see him do it a few years in a row. if pedroia and youkillis in the next few years are the best the red sox have, i don’t think their offense will be their strong point.
textbook
mel -
I’m stumped! I can only think of Yogi, but he’s not bald.
Jeter’s part Italian? That’s pretty interesting.
: )
Ahem Pete!
I have totally supported Hughes.
Thank you.
randy l =
You’re right. Time will tell.
I didn’t realize Youkilis was that “old.”
trisha
fair enough.
i would love to keep cano if the yankees can still build a great team but i wouldn’t keep him if he was preventing us from getting better.
the yankees need pitching.
Doreen,
The interlocking NY ring (Huge!) confirmed it for me. It was Dr. Ronana Tynan.
He was talking about 2001 and how he went to the Pentagon and was scheduled to sing.
He went to NYC to offer his assistance as a doctor, but they didn’t need him so he sang.
He talked about us and we like he was an American, too. And how he felt so proud that Americans had pulled together and shared what they had. It was truly awesome to hear him talk about that.
*Ronan
randy l =
In any event – Manny/Ortiz were one-swing game-changing dangerous. Pedroia and Youkilis are not Manny Ortiz.
randy,
I agree with your take on Ortiz. He might come back and be a force but there’s real doubt about that. There have been many players with his skill set/ body type that have declined very, very rapidly rather than a gradual decline.
The sox have a lot of talent. They should win the series this year.
But moving forward they will be a very different team. They don’t have a lot of young power hitting in their system.
A lot of their future could wind up depending on Lars Anderson and how good he winds up being. He’s close to being an elite power hitting prospect so he very well might fill that gap nicely with youklis moving to 3b.
But after trading Manny, they can’t afford to have Ortiz go into decline. Just not the same team.
I expect them to continue being successful but they’ll have to do it in a different way.
They had 2 guys in that lineup hitting back to back that could put up 1.000 OPS seasons.
That was what they’re offense was built on. It’ll be interesting to see.
mel =
That’s a really great story. Didn’t know any of that. Seems so long ago, and yet just yesterday, doesn’t it?
Doreen -
Oh my God, P*ul B*rd is the HEAD urchin!!!
Both Youkilis and Pedroia have had out-sized years. Even if these are high-water marks, they are both gamers, grinders and integral parts of winning teams like Brosius, Paulie and the gang were in the winning years.
Trisha -
Paul Byrd looks like a troll. Other-wordly, Brothers Grimm troll.
Do you think if we put together a package of Cano/Kennedy/Melky + maybe like Miranda or Alan Horne we could get Longoria? Maybe they could add Jackson too?
Holy Rocco Baldelli!
dynasty
that was destroyed wow
are you sure that guy is sick????
It’s quite amazing to see and hear how quiet Fenway is right now….WOW, impressive.
Trisha -
The one thing that bothers me about Brett Gardner is fits the Red Sox “looks” mold.
YEAH! Rocco!!!! Good for Rocco.
The “Fenway Faithful” not so faithful, are they, if they’re headed for the exits!
that runner on first could have kept going and blocked the throw to the plate, bad base running. he was trying to stay out of the double play and should have been thinking of the run scoring. he could have given himself up fro a run.
it’s not interference if he runs in front of the fielder when he’s trying to throw a ball in to the catcher.
YAY ROCCO!!!!!
I was just thinking that I would so like him to get a hit because he’s been so down on his luck.
Yankee fans, remember this whenever you hear people talking about Yankee fans abandoning the Stadium in games:
AND THE BOSTON FAITHFUL HEAD FOR THE EXITS”
Music to mine happy ears!
Did you guys see the mass exodus? Maybe Tito knew what he was doing when he didn’t use Byrd.
I should add “they play to win” the statistics be damned. (Youk and the “Pest”, that is)
By the way, Chip Carey is an absolutely horrible announcer. Fortunately, Buck Martinez is there to neutralize Darling.
Attaboy, Rocco!!!
Byrd ha ha ha ha ha
“The one thing that bothers me about Brett Gardner is fits the Red Sox “looks†mold.”
Doreen, swear to God it’s his tender age. He’ll fill out. Promise.
Pete,
I do have perspective. I did say that if he was working on his stuff, great. But I was mainly reacting to your 5 innings/80 pitches being solid. Anyway you cut that, I don’t care if he’s 22 or 30, that’s not solid.
That’s Ian Kennedy territory.. And if it was Ian Kennedy, he would say he had a solid start.
i was very impressed with max sherzer.
kid throws 100 MPH and had a dominant rookie season.
Doreen,
God Bless America is played at every ballpark during the postseason( starting in the LCS series I believe)…Boston, Tampa Bay, LA, don’t do it during the regular season like the Yanks.
Congrats to Rocco! what a great story
Doreen,
I don’t think so! Gardner’s a sweet southern boy. Don’t let the white supremicist/biker look fool you.
He’s a Yankee at heart!
Gardner grew up a Red Sox fan too lol
Tomorrow’s Headline: Bedeviling The Sox
sub headline: Rays Outsock The Sox
Trisha
I hope so. But I think if he would forego the shaved head look, it would certainly help.
Oh man, I can’t believe we’re having this conversation.
(I had a margarita with dinner, what’s your reason??)
Rocco lives about 15 minutes from me. But then again, just about everyone in RI does!
Gardner should have been the biker in the rookie hazing.
Instead, they made him a construction worker.
“Tyler
October 13th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Do you think if we put together a package of Cano/Kennedy/Melky + maybe like Miranda or Alan Horne we could get Longoria? Maybe they could add Jackson too?”
go play Xbox
Doreen, I am never so happily giddy as when the Sux get a pie in the face!
Wonder if they’ll kill Tito tomorrow for using Byrd in relief.
The Sox just don’t have a good pen. Haven’t had one all year. There’s only so much a manager can do to hide that.
Before he joined the rays Andrew Friedman used to work as an analyst on Wall Street. He worked for Bear Stearns for a while. Left wall street and joined the rays player personnel dept.
Guess the change in careers is working out for him.
He was the guy I was always hoping would replace Cashman as the yankee GM whenever he decided to step down. But I think Friedman just signed a new long term deal to stay on as GM. He’s done a remarkable job assembling this team, including the pick of Joe Madden to manage.
E-Manm I agree 100% too many are overracting to Hughes’ performance today. the standards have been lowered considerably. you are right, for ian kennedy that would be solid.
Thanks, Tampayank. Again, you learn something new every day.
Doreen, actually J*son B*y looks like something out of Deliverance.
Things are pretty bad down on the farm when we are pinning our hopes on a marginally endowed 4th outfielder to patrol the hallowed land of DiMaggio and Mantle. He’s a nice kid with a good attitude who hustles but is talent-challenged, to say the least.
CB =
Did he have any baseball background at all?
I do love it when that man strikes out swinging
I agree pete, no reason to trade Hughes this offseason. Especially for an NL West all star starter who could be an expensive 4th starter in the AL East.
Bold Prediction: the red sox have already made their last trip to tampa this season.
Listening to Trisha here all year makes me want to actually root for the Red Sox to win this.
J.D. Mantle really smoked that. First hit of the night…
Al, I guess it’s just going to be an unfortunate situation for those who insist on labeling Phil a #3 based on the bits and pieces we’ve seen from him over the past year. As the Yankees don’t agree with you, all of these out-of-this world trade proposals are all for naught.
This is a good game for the Rays. However the true laughter will come when Andy Sonnanstine tosses a gem tomorrow night up in Fenway against father time Wakefield.
Thus far, the Sawx and their pedestrian and classless “Nation” fan base are in a state of shock. Hopefully, it will continue.
Kay, so let’s think this out seriously. If J*son F*N B*Y can hit 2 4-run homers before he has to take his canoe down the river in the back woods of B*st*n, the S*x actually have a chance of wi**i*g this game!
“He’s done a remarkable job assembling this team, including the pick of Joe Madden to manage.”
Real tough to assemble a team when you pick #1 every season for a decade. And Kazmir was brought in by Chuck LeMarr.
er, g*me.
Harwood, that’s right. Nothing was more ludicrous that “Chip” larding Nancy Drew with “Mantle-like” power.
trisha – trivia question for you above (from Pete)
“Listening to Trisha here all year makes me want to actually root for the Red Sox to win this.”
YAWN!
Don’t just talk about it Rick. Then do it!
Pete, believe it. I know you don’t have the time to do it, but read the majority of posts on Phil and they will blow your mind. I thought it was just usual Yankees’ fans impatience, and that’s part of it, but mostly it’s due to the non-Santana trade. If you hear fans say that they want to go with home-grown kids, do yourself a favor and let those words go in one ear and out the other; coming from Yankee fans, they are just hot air.
Paul Konerko is one
Doreen,
Friedman played baseball in college. But after that he went to work directly for Bear Stearn as I recall. Worked at another investment house after that then went to work for the Rays.
I think they hired him for his numbers background sort of along the lines of how John Henry and Lucchino hired Theo.
One of the things that both Tampa and the Sox have in common is the background of their owners.
John Henry made his money in hedge funds. I believe his fund was one of the first to use mathematical algorithms and computers to make trades.
The Rays owner Stuart Sternberg is also a wall street guy. Had a long career investing. I think he was a partner in Goldman Sachs before he bought the Rays.
I’d have to guess that Henry and Sternberg’s backgrounds had a lot to do with why Theo and Friedman got those jobs and at such young ages.
“Do you think if we put together a package of Cano/Kennedy/Melky + maybe like Miranda or Alan Horne we could get Longoria? Maybe they could add Jackson too?”
We’re all taking this as a complete joke right?
There should be a minimum IQ test required in order to post here.
“Longoria is going to be the best player in the division very soon.”
Longoria looks scary good and what you say may be true but I’m usually a fan of waiting until a player has at least a full season under his belt before I would consider making reservations for his induction into Cooperstown.
any fans left in that rat’s nest ?
Do not pitch Kazmir in game 6. Use Price instead.
Longoria will probably beat A-Rod out for 3B votes next year in the ASG.
You got a way about you, Trish. Makes one want to eat a slug but it’s a way. That’s for sure.
Clem Labine would be another.
“I expect them to continue being successful but they’ll have to do it in a different way.”
cb-
with the trend towards less offense because of the peds crackdown combined with the watering down of teams towards parity because of revenue sharing , the red sox seem to be emphasizing pitching , defense, and more team speed rather than an offense built around a few offensive superstars.
the yankees were affected the most by revenue sharing, but the red sox will be feeling it too. they are maxing out on their attempt to add seats and other revenues. i expect they’ll have many of the same problems the yankees face in the future with trying to go younger and cheaper. manny’s and big papi’s don’t come cheap. it will, as you say, be interesting to see what the red sox do. they’re in transition too.
Scurrying for the exits?
Some faith they have.
Cash is stuck with Phil? LOL I really love how fans who think Phil is extremely limited feel that Cashman must realize that he completely blew the Santana deal. You guys have one track minds and simply do not comprehend that the Yankees, for reasons obviously unknown to you, feel differently about Phil than you. It’s sad, seriously. This kid had better wear a bullet-proof vest next time he takes the mound and YS and struggles.
Why wouldn’t Upton be the best player in the div soon?
“Real tough to assemble a team when you pick #1 every season for a decade. And Kazmir was brought in by Chuck LeMarr.”
It’s a complete myth that Tampa has assembled their talent by getting high first round draft picks.
They’ve done a great job in later rounds in the draft and in making trades.
Look at their roster how many high draft picks are there? Longoria, Upton, and Price.
Friedman was the one who got them Pena and Iwamura. He was the one who traded for Garza and assembled that pen – none of whom were high draft picks.
It’s not just the high draft picks. More uncertainty in the baseball draft than in any other.
The pirates have had as many high picks as tampa has over the past 10 year. Royals as well.
Betsy get off the high horse and stop complaining about the majority of fans. Really.
CB: By that logic my brother should be the next GM of the Yankees.
Nothing wrong with Hughes being a #3.. too many people are putting unrealistic expectations on the guy. Why does he have to be a top of the rotation starter like Joba? He can still be a solid pitcher.
#3 starters are so valuable in this league, if he becomes one, I’ll be thrilled.
Hey Pete how about this: Davey Lopes, Clem Labine, and Paul Konerko?
The best players (and pitchers) will belong to the Rays next season. Joba does not qualify until he can throw 200 innings.
Tampa is loaded, more young talent than we can dream of, same with the Sox, Though they are a cut below Tampa too.
“You got a way about you, Trish. Makes one want to eat a slug but it’s a way. That’s for sure.”
YAWN! Don’t just talk about it Rick. Then do it!
“Longoria will probably beat A-Rod out for 3B votes next year in the ASG.”
We’ll see. A-Rod is on a “hot one year, less hot the next year” schedule. He’s due for a monster year in 2009. That should get him some votes.
How is it a myth that the Rays were built thru yrs of utter futility?
They got Upton, Longoria, Price, Crawford, Baldelli all from being high up in the draft. 4 of those 5 in the top 6.
That’s a pretty good core from yrs of futility.
They traded another #1 pick for their #3 starter.
We are lucky they failed so miserably on many draft choices.
This team was built thru high picks. Anyone that says different isn’t watching.
Soenstein has done well against the Sox this year. He needs to continue that tomorrow.
Davey Lopes
“Bold Prediction: the red sox have already made their last trip to tampa this season.”
Um, that would just be a dumb prediction since there are only two games left in craptown and the Sux need 4 to take the series.”
GB, I said Lopes, Labine and Konerko.
BOS is crazy if they give Varitek a contract.
Auh look at that. Soxs down 2-1
Imagine if the Rays hadn’t struck out on Townsend, Brazelton and Neimann when picking in the top 5.
Tampa Bay Rays?
Cashman is my man.
that said, he better get it done, this off-season.
Sorry, CB – I have to disagree with you. I’m not saying that Phil will turn into Peavy, but I think he is going to be a stud. To say that Phil will never be that kind of pitcher, after a year and a half of unfortunate stops and starts, when he’s only 22 ……….well, that to me is very much jumping the gun and it’s not fair. Joba has nothing to do with this and yet he’s got everything to do with it. Fans see Joba and they drool over him because they love velocity. Phil was the Yankees’ fair-hair child and now he’s the you-know-what step-child (at least he’s considered that by Kay-clones and most fans). He throws 91-93 and he was still the #1 pitching prospect in baseball; obviously scouts saw something that fans are missing. I just do not get the rush to judgment on this kid, but oh well. It’s a lost cause.
Trish, are you typing with your Pavano jersey on or your Igawa jersey?
Jay,
Anyone who complains about Hughes being a #3 starter doesn’t know football. All pitchers are not going to be Joba or Lester. Hughes probably will become a number 3 and nobody should be ashamed if he does– as you said number 3 starters are valuable in this league where Carlos Silva gets $12 million a year.
“This team was built thru high picks. Anyone that says different isn’t watching.”
although a factor,if that’s all it was, why don’t all perennial last place teams assemble first place teams?
Unfortunately, Hughes is the object of misdirected frustration. Hopefully, it will not damage his development since he still has the goods provided he is not moved along too quickly. The fault rests with Cashman on many fronts, and Peter, among others, should understand this. Cashman was (i) responsible for the hype–this “Generation Tre” nonsence, which the media bought into and perpetuated,
(ii) his adamant stand on the Santana deal..which could have been done without Hughes given the final Mets deal if he were a clever negotiator,and (iii) among many other things, his inability to put together a winning roster deficient in so many respects. Frustration abounds, as is evident on the board, and is manifested mainly in the direction of those players whose performance were the most dissappointing.
But for management’s hype (including the manager wearing “27″) this might not be happening.
Never mind about Labine. I’m thinking Pete said RI players who were in the postseason, not players who hit homers. Duh.
They aren’t giving up on Hughes. They just won’t do it. They obviously believe in him. Not many young pitchers are like Lincecum and Joba people. They take time.
The other is Gabby Hartnett
TB accomplished what they needed to do, which was win at least 1 game at Fenway. If they win the last game, they should make it to the WS.
“Trish, are you typing with your Pavano jersey on or your Igawa jersey?”
Your father’s shorts. Now go haunt a ghost, wouldya?
i’ll be thrilled if Hughes turns into a #3 starter
better than signing the Pavanos and Wrights of the world when you have your own #3
Sad that Garza’s strikeout reel they just showed had each one end in a Redsox members crying about the call. Nothing is ever a strike to them, they cant just walk away without having a tantrum. No class.
Thanks GB! We can split the prize.
Dodger fans with the fake Manny hair-yikes
Gardner as the centerfielder is the equivalent of Cashman as the GM. That explains it.
Sadly Phil will be unable to throw 200 innings until 2010, thus leaving this assumption that he will be a “front of the rotation” starter a bit ill conceived. If we can make Phil the centerpiece of a package for Jake Peavy that will benefit the Yankees far more than holding onto him and praying for him to stay off the DL.
TD: nonetheless, the Rays deserve credit. As CB pointed out, the success is a result, beyond draft selections.
By the way, Dan Wheeler was also born in RI.
LOL TD- whatever you say. Give me a break.
“You although a factor,if that’s all it was, why don’t all perennial last place teams assemble first place teams?”
You seriously don’t think the biggest reason Tampa is here is because they hit on most of their top 5 picks? Really?
You know it’s pretty easy to be better when you trot out top 5 studs like they are.
I mean seriously. How hard was it to pick Upton at 1, Price at 1, Longoria at 3?
Don’t tell us it was “great management”. Please.
Two down. Two to go.
Manny and Torre in the series while the BoSox stay home. I love it!
Al from BK:
You realize that investing on young talented pitchers takes a little time right? They key is the have a lot of them. But you will be the first person to cheer when Hughes wins 15 games right?
TD: are you a Red Sox fan?
CB -
I guess they’re gamblers at heart. I like the way you look at statistics – you seem to be able to view them in an entire world-view type of way rather than in a statistics-in-a-vacuum way. I imagine that these two men are very adept at looking at numbers and extrapolating how they might be interpreted into performance. But it seems to me that there’s been a lot of luck involved, too.
I’m not sure how I feel about Theo’s and the Red Sox way of being able to see the statistical future and let a beloved player go rather than sign on for the extra 2 years of non-production. Part of me admires it and part of me thinks it’s awfully cold-hearted. I realize the bottom line in baseball is to field a team capable of winning a championship, not fielding a team of well-loved players. But one of the things I like about the Yankees is that they are loyal to players that have served them well. So, perhaps it is good to hire someone with a cold, clear, calculating approach, someone who views the players as pieces rather than people.
It will be interesting to see how the Rays operate going forward. This is the first time a team that they’ve fielded has borne fruit. They don’t have a huge fanbase. Will the fans they have become so enamored of this team that’s bringing them the first taste of success? Will they be upset when the front office decides they need to trade a BJ Upton at some point because he will be less productive before the end of the prospective next contract? Will the front office hold on to these players out of sentimentality or pass them through the machine?
The human element is important. I admire the Yankees for their adherence to tradition, to the people who have made them who they are. But I also look at the day that, say, Derek Jeter is no longer a viable player, and wonder, what will they do?
No Sweet Caroline and holding hands in silly Bahhstin tonight.
They’d better hurry home before the sidewalks are rolled up.
” Last call for beans ” ! ! !
Again.
Cashman didn’t trade Hughes for Santana. A lefty ace who was dying to come to NY.
He is not going to trade Hughes for a small town, national league pitcher who doesn’t want to be in NY.
Cashman would rather pay Burnett and Sabathia and have Hughes than trade Hughes for Peavy and get one of those pitchers.
Jay King, can you explain exactly why it’s unrealistic to expect Phil to be a stud? Wow – so Joba throws 99 MPH. Great – how he performs has absolutely nothing to do with how Phil performs (Yankee fans apparently only like young flamethrowers. They have very, very little patience for anyone else with a different repertoire). How many guys throw 99 MPH today? Most aces don’t come close to that, so if your point is that you have to throw extremely hard to be extremely successful, well………sorry, I don’t buy it. Were you saying that Phil was at best a #3 after the game against Texas? How about in the post-season last year? If not, then the expectations are not unrealistic. What is unrealistic are the demands placed on Phil by fans who resent that Santana is gone and who insist that the kid is a bum because at 22 he’s still finding himself.
yeah, I’m a Sox fan because I think the Rays benefited from a decade of being terrible and picking #1 every year.
Good call, vinny.
I guess pointing out the obvious makes one a Sox fan.
“Tampa Bay has scored 18 runs on 25 hits – seven of them home runs – in the last two games of the series. Those members of the Nation sober enough to walk have left the park at this point.
Tampa Bay has scored 18 runs on 25 hits – seven of them home runs – in the last two games of the series.”
Why are you repeating yourself ? We are not too drunk to read.
Betsy is in the Hughes Delusional Fan Club.
GO PHILS!
Catch up with y’all in a while.
ER had a post that wasn’t anti Yankee??
He must be sick today.
Reacher,
Excellent post. The highlight was that Cashman did not put a winning roster around Hughes. He basically threw him and Kennedy to the wolves and dedicated a development year to him with the attitude of “if we make the playoffs, great. if not, we’ll get em in 09″.
On the Yankees, that is a VERY dangerous stance and all it does is create a poisonous negative atmosphere. You have a veteran laden clubhouse that is not going to stand for rebuilding. You have a rabid fanbase that only knows winning. You have a media contingent that can make life hell for anyone in the organization.
You have to be able to mask young players and take pressure off them. People point to the Sox. Look at Lester last year– he was behind Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield. He could be the #5 and have no pressure on him. Pedroia and Ellsbury were in the bottom of a lineup that featured the likes of Manny, Ortiz, Drew, Lowell, Youkallis etc. They didn’t have to carry the load.
Cashman also has overhyped his own players. But the players have also been injury prone and let him down. Cashman hasn’t struck a balance. He is using this “woe is me” stance and citing the albatross contracts as an excuse not to improve the team and wants to sit back and pray the young players blossom rather than proactively go out there to try and fix the team.
TD says: “Don’t tell us it was “great managementâ€. Please.”
Did you ever stop and think that it was great talent evaluators ?
“T D
October 13th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
yeah, I’m a Sox fan because I think the Rays benefited from a decade of being terrible and picking #1 every year.
I guess pointing out the obvious makes one a Sox fan”
yes or no
All the pro-Hughes people bring up two games. 6 innings against a crappy Texas team and 4 innings of relief against Cle in the playoffs.
There are much better arguments for keeping Hughes and having faith in him than those two games. Use them.
“This team was built thru high picks. Anyone that says different isn’t watching.”
There are certainly some high draft picks on the rays but it’s largely a myth that it was high draft picks that form the core of this team.
The guys at rays index (very good rays blog) have looked at this several times:
“Of the 28 players on the roster (including 3 on DL), only three were drafted by the Rays in the first round (BJ Upton, Evan Longoria, Rocco Baldelli) and Rocco has only been with the Rays since Aug. 10. Of the remaining players, Carl Crawford was drafted in the 2nd round, in which every other team passed on him at least once, and four were drafted in the 10th round or later, including two very important pieces of the starting rotation, James Shields (16th round) and Andy Sonnanstine (13). 13 players were acquired via trade and seven were signed as free agents including two players that were signed to minor league deals (Eric Hinske, Carlos Pena).”
This was done before Price was called up so that makes 4 players taken in the first round. (BTW Carl Crawford was not a first round pick…)
For a complete listing of how every player on the Rays playoff roster was acquired see the following:
http://www.raysindex.com/2008/.....s-are.html
Again – only four players on their current team was taken in the first round and one of those was Baldelli who didn’t join the team until late in august and can’t play everyday due to his illness.
So of those 4 first rounders on the roster only two – Upton and Longoria contributed on an everyday basis.
It wasn’t high first rounders that account for the rays success this year. That’s just a myth.
Hughes as a #3 starter is now considered an insult? LOL
Did we have a great farm all these years now where developing a #3 starter is considered a disappointment?
You’re not going to develop 20 Joba’s.
“Did you ever stop and think that it was great talent evaluators ?”
Real tough to evaluate Price, Upton and Longoria, right? All hailed as the top players in those classes. But we should give them props for it, right??
Where were those guys on Brazelton? Townsend? Neimman? Young??
“Al from BK:
You realize that investing on young talented pitchers takes a little time right? They key is the have a lot of them. But you will be the first person to cheer when Hughes wins 15 games right?”
Even if Hughes reaches his “potential” he will never be close to the pitcher Peavy is or for that matter Santana. No matter how many years we “let him develop” it is very obvious that he has only one out pitch(his curveball) that is sporatic at best and he has a 90-93 mph fastball with average control. I can understand why people like this kid, however to have blind devotion to a player is silly.
Jersey,
Exactly. Mark Burhlee no hit the same Texas team, people need to calm down thinking that for Hughes it was some springboard to greatness. 3 playoff innings are also not sufficient to evaluate him.
Hughes may be great, but nothing he has done was overwhelming at the ML level to make you believe he will be. There is a much greater chance he is Paul Wilson than he is Roger Clemens.
Davey Lopes and Paul Konerko hit homeruns in the playoffs–from RI
LOL at using Lester as an example. I don’t recall, even before his cancer, him being such a HOT prospect – and now look at him.
Yes, I find it ridiculous that Phil is being judged at best a #3. This is all based on either external factors (being blinded by Santana resentment) or incredibly extreme impatience. When you come as highly regarded as Phil did (being touted as having all the stuff to be an ace), heck yes – ending up as a #3 would be a great disappointment. There were many reasons why scouts loved Phil, but none of them were under any illusions that he threw 98 MPH.
What I find interesting (though not surprising) is how many people are utterly impressed by the opposing pitcher’s K’s (wow, 9), even though he gave up more runs than Phil did. I guess people would rather see K’s than wins.
CB
Great research but you miss the point.
Name me another team with a core that has 4 players picked in the top 6 of a draft.
Really? None? No way!
You mean they got all stars in the top 3 picks??? Thats fantastic evaluating of talent.
“blind devotion” is a good word, Al. I agree with that. Too many people are delusional when it comes to Phil. They are making him greater than he is. They are hypocrites because these worshipers are the ones talking Hughes up like he is this bonafied ace and they are the same ones who kill fans for being impatient. They are the ones who set the expectations.
Name me one big game that Peavy has ever pitched that he won.
Hughes doesn’t have to be an ace. He just has to be a #3. They have an ace in Joba already. They obviously believe that Hughes will be a front line starter and if check his minor league stats and his youth they are probably right to bet on him.
Yank1, that isn’t even the point. Phil was looked at as a #1 by scouts AND the Yankees. This is separate and apart from Joba. It comes down to this – fans love Joba because he throws hard. Period, end of story. Phil never did throw as hard (and it didn’t stop him from being a stud prospect). What happened? Fans just decided “oh, we have Joba, so Phil can’t possibly be a #1 anymore”. That doesn’t make any baseball sense whatsoever.
randy,
Agreed on the sox. They are clearly in transition. No way that you can lose a player like Manny and then see Papi potentially taking a step back and not have a franchise going through massive change. Those were arguably 2 of the 5 best hitters in baseball.
They’ve done a very good job reloading. Bay is no manny but he was a very good pick up. I also think this is partly why they spent so much money in the draft this year.
They are a very well run team that empahsizes flexibility. I expect they’ll adjust.
Doreen asked about Jeter earlier – it’ll be very interesting to see what they do with Varitek this off season. He’s lost so much bat speed.
“Jersey
October 13th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
All the pro-Hughes people bring up two games. 6 innings against a crappy Texas team and 4 innings of relief against Cle in the playoffs.
There are much better arguments for keeping Hughes and having faith in him than those two games. Use them.”
Everybody forgets the 1 hitter he threw against the Indians his second start back from the DL last year. He and Joba combined for the shutout.
Matt Garza is a #3 starter. You telling me you will be disappointed if Hughes becomes Garza? Did you see what he did to the Sux today?
Let’s stop with these “ace” proclamations. Reasonable fans will be overjoyed if he can be our Matt Garza behind Joba and Wang.
“There is a much greater chance he is Paul Wilson than he is Roger Clemens.”
Well since we see guys like Clemens maybe once in 50 yrs, you are probably right. Expectations much??
“joba da heat
October 13th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Exactly. Mark Burhlee no hit the same Texas team, people need to calm down thinking that for Hughes it was some springboard to greatness”
Hughes looked like a completely different pitcher, at that point. In that game, he was locating pitches with laser guided missile precision. As if he was playing a baseball videogame with all pitching options set to ‘on’
I don’t know what happened, since then. I do know, he wasn’t doing it with smoke & mirrors.
“Peavy has never been seriously injured in his career. Peavy is as good as Santana. ”
Peavy isn’t even close to being as good as Santana.
Santana Career ERA+ 144
Jake Peavy Career ERA+ 121
Santana is a MUCH better pitcher than Peavy. I don’t care how good Peavy’s stuff may be. You know who may be as good as Santana? Brandon Webb, and Roy Oswalt, not Jake Peavy.
Kell, and you are in the “I have no clue what I am talking about fan club”. You’re also in the “I want what I want when I want it now” fan club and also the “I said I wanted home-grown Yankees, but I didn’t mean it” club.
The people bashing Hughes will realize the kid is 22yrs old and was the youngest pitcher in the majors the last 2 yrs right?
His minor league #’s, a great barometer of future success, have been extraordinary at every level.
Betsy,
I might not have been clear enough in my post on Hughes. I was being supportive of him. Many of the people who want Peavy dismiss Phil out of hand because Phil doesn’t throw hard enough. My point was that Phil and Peavy essentially throw their fastball’s with equal velocity. Phil may not be Joba in terms of stuff, but neither is Peavy. That was my point.
“Hughes looked like a completely different pitcher, at that point. In that game, he was locating pitches with laser guided missile precision. As if he was playing a baseball videogame with all pitching options set to ‘on’
I don’t know what happened, since then. I do know, he wasn’t doing it with smoke & mirrors.”
Another genius posting here.
Way to give up on a 22yr old! Thanks for coming.
Varitek – because he’s a catcher and that is a premium position, the Red Sox may sacrifice offense for stability and defense. BUT the length of contract will be interesting.
Actually, I think fans like Joba because of his rock-star personality. Joba mania has swept the nation. He comes from a very interesting background with his father and all. He wears his emotions on his sleeve, he is personable and outgoing, has endorsement/commericals already, and is a figure that the fans can resonate with.
I think those factors sway fans to Joba rather than how hard he throws, though it certainly doesn’t hurt. His immediate success has also played a huge role in it (and Joba became what he is now because of that immediate success. He isin’t hosting parties with Alysa Milanno in SoHo if he is 1-8 with a 9.50 ERA)
But I don’t think anybody is rooting for Joba and against Phil at all. Fans want both of them to do well. Joba is obviously the more captivating figure because of his personality/background/immediate success. Thats why he gets more fanfare than Hughes, not because fans dislike Hughes.
jake Peavy? That’s hilarious.
Yeah. let’s give up Hughes and our best position player under 30 for a guy with an elbow issue, a terrible delivery and a fear of East Coast baseball.
LOL.
Lowe better get his act together, if he wants to see the money $$
td-
forget the rays. i again ask why don’t all last perennial last place teams end up with championship teams?
the rays are obviously doing something different than those other last place teams.
i think, for one thing,the rays have assembled some very good coaches at the minor league level. one is neil allen who taught chien ming wang his sinker. he was teaching david price this summer. people above have talked about the wall street statistically adept hirings tampa made at the management level, but the rays also hire a lot of quality old school coaches like allen. they just seem to have put together a very nice blending of old school and new school .
Torre looks younger. Must be the wheatgrass.
“Actually, I think fans like Joba because of his rock-star personality.”
Umm we love Joba because he’s a great pitcher. The other stuff is a nice bonus.
If Hughes develops like we all hope we’ll love him too. Just like we’d love any Yankee who does well.
I’ve never seen Joe Torre so awake watching games. He slept for the last few years on the bench. Anyone who says it wasn’t time for change, all you need to do is watch these games.
Anyone high on Lowe, you REALLY might want to rethink your position.
Either that or you really don’t know enough about Lowe’s background as a meltdown headcase. He needs the friendly confines of a mellow NL LA team to feel, well, validated.
Come on Victorino
Every pitcher has a game (like Hughes did in Texas) where their stuff is untouchable.
Remember Kennedy vs. Toronto last year? He looked even more electric than Hughes. They couldn’t touch him that night. 1 hit, 7 Ks, he was dominant.
One game doesn’t make a career (good or bad).
vinny-b
You sure it is wheat?
Eh never mind!
“Name me one big game that Peavy has ever pitched that he won.”
He has only pitched in 2 postseason games and was bad in both however 2 games isn’t a great sample size. He pitched the one game playoff against the Rockies last year and Hoffman blew the save I believe. The Pads have been pretty bad for the past 6-7 years so I don’t think hes has many “big games” to win or lose.
jen, don’t kid yourself. He has a ton to prove and that’s why you see the alert version of Torre. He’s dying to be able to jam it to the Yankees.
My opinion.
“Nate
October 13th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Another genius posting here.
Way to give up on a 22yr old! Thanks for coming”
you have reading comprehension problems.
get it checked out.
trisha
Agreed, I really don’t get why everyone wants him? They say he’s pitched well. Well lets ignore the fact that he pitched in a soft NL West, and in a pitchers park. Lets also forget the not so good last year he spent in the AL East which is light years better than it was when he left.
Lets also forget that he pitched in the AL East 4 years ago!!
“Name me another team with a core that has 4 players picked in the top 6 of a draft.
Really? None? No way!”
It’s incorrect to say their 4 high first rounders were the core of the team.
Are you seriously suggesting that Baldelli who has a serious degenerative muscle condition and didn’t join the team until late august is part of their core? And Price has terrific potential but was in the minors the whole year. He’s not part of core of this playoff team. Price threw 14 innings this season and has thrown 1 inning in the post season. He’s potential but is not a core part of the 2008 Rays. Maybe 2009 or 2010 but not 2008.
So there are two high first round picks that are part of the rays team – Longoria and Upton.
The rays are a team built on pitching. None of the pitchers on their team this year were players that they picked with one of their high first round picks.
They made shrewd trades for pitchers. But they didn’t pick any of their starting 5 with a high pick. And none of their bull pen pitchers were high picks either.
And again, the Pirates and Royals have picked where the Rays have.
Friedman is considered one of the best GM’s in the game with good reason. He’s done an amazing job.
But if you disagree we’ll have to leave it at that.
Tek would be lucky to get a 1 yr offer from the Sox. I can’t see any tean offering more. We should hope he stays with the Sox as he’s such an offensive liability.
Yanks really have a tough road ahead of them next season with the East being as strong as it is. By far the strongest division in baseball.
Not one person is saying right now that Phil is an ace, so those that are trying to use that to bolser your argument against us “delusional” Phil fans are just plain wrong.
The kid has hardly pitched at all in the ML – he’s had some bad starts and some good starts and some in between starts (just like 99.9% of the young pitchers who have played this game). You guys accuse those who want to have patience (by the way, you’re acting as if we’re asking you to wait 10 years) with Phil of being delusional, yet it’s not delusional to expect Phil at age 22 to not have struggled at all in his major league career? It’s not delusional to hold this kid to ridiculously high expectations? To nitpick even his AFL starts?
randy:
When you give me a team that drafts in the top 3 for 5 years I’ll let you know.
they did nothign differant than the Royals and Pirates besides finishing with a worse record. that assured them of studs like Upton and Price and universal all world talents like Young. The Royals passed on Longoria who was taken 3 for Hochevar.
Just like the Rays messed up in 2001 taking Brazelton over Floyd and Texeira. 2004 taking Niemann over Hughes. In 2005 taking Townsend over Pelfrey, Bruce, McCutcheon, Maybin, Volstad, etc.
So be real.
i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes
i think kennedy has the mound temperament, control, and changeup to be a very good pitcher, a #3 like hughes.
Oh he also had a 5.42 his last year in the AL East, and his second to last 4.47. I don’t touch him with a 10 foot pole.
He also gave up more than a hit per inning his last years in the AL.
And even in the NL he almost gives up a hit per inning.
Bullpens are hit and miss. TB had the worst pen ever last year. This year they have been great. Next year they may stink again.
Why don’t the broadcasters get it? You SET UP THE DOUBLE PLAY!!
“i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes
i think kennedy has the mound temperament, control, and changeup to be a very good pitcher, a #3 like hughes.”
That’s hilarious. You think Igawa will be an ace too???
“they did nothign differant than the Royals and Pirates besides finishing with a worse record.”
2006 draft – Longoria was picked 3rd.
Who went first – Luke Hochevar to the Royals.
That’s a pretty big difference. The Royals and Pirates for years went cheap in the draft.
Tampa changed everything they were doing in 2005 when Steinberg bought the team and Friedman took over.
Tell me these morons aren’t rooting for the Dodgers.
How can you argue that selecting in the top of the draft hasn’t helped Tampa?
Upton and Longoria are two of the best players in baseball that only being terrible you could get. Price will be one of the best lefty’s in the game next year.
“i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes”
Well that makes 2 of you that believes that. You and Kennedy himself.
“patrick max
October 13th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes
i think kennedy has the mound temperament, control, and changeup to be a very good pitcher, a #3 like hughes”
if you have time this week, i’d like to show you the Tappan Zee, TriBorough, Whitestone, and Throgsneck properties.
Oh and I love how people say he gives you innings. So does Livan Hernandez. What good is that?
“i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes
i think kennedy has the mound temperament, control, and changeup to be a very good pitcher, a #3 like hughes.”
You’re kidding right? The kid is entitled, cocky and delusional. On top of that his stuff is mediocre and he is one of those guys who will never be anything past AAA.
Peavy pitched in the postseason in 2005 and 2006.
The Padres didn’t make the post season last year.
Both post-season games were against the Cardinals in the NLDS
2005:
4.1 innings, 8H, 8Runs, 8ER, 3BB, 3SO 16.62 ERA
2006:
5.1 innings, 11H, 5Runs, 5ER, 1BB, 2SO 8.44 ERA
He pitched that 1 game playoff game for the WC spot vs the Rockies last year:
6.1 innings, 10H, 6runs, 6ER, 4BB, 6SO 2.54 ERA
Tampa changed everything they were doing in 2005 when Steinberg bought the team and Friedman took over.
What changed? They had top 3 picks every single year there. Again how hard is to build when you have top 3 picks? We shouldn’t be giving medals out to teams that succeed after a decade of picking in the top 3.
Why do you insist on saying Friedman has done great things? He’s made some good moves. Trading Young for Garza and Bartlett. Balfour was cut and picked up. Percival wanted to close and not set up for Mo. Pena played on every team in the Al East and was at the end of his rope. Iwamura was filler. Kazmir was brought in by the other regime.
Why do think he’s a great and shrewd GM?
“patrick max
October 13th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
i still think ian kennedy will be a better MLB pitcher than hughes
i think kennedy has the mound temperament, control, and changeup to be a very good pitcher, a #3 like hughesâ€
Anyone else think IPK himself posted this?
“jennifer
October 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
vinny-b
You sure it is wheat?”
I don’t know jennifer. You right tho, Torre never looked that awake, the last 8-9 yrs he was here.
Someone earlier said that Joba was untouchable. I’m just curious but would anybody trade Joba and Austin Jackson for Jay Bruce and Joey Votto?
Would Cincinatti do it? Would the Yankees do it?
Joba is an ace after less than a full season starting?
CB, thanks for clarifying. I re-read your post afterwards and realized that I misinterpreted what you said.
Kell, you just made an interesting point and one I am a bit disturbed at (though I find it’s true of Yankee fans……probably Met fans, to). First off, Joba is not a “great” pitcher yet…..but for arguments sake, I’ll agree with that statement. What you’re saying is that fans will love/accept players who have almost unqualified, immediate success in the big leagues. I think that’s unfair, but I do think it’s true of NY fans……actually, not just baseball fans, either. Phil is an obviously talented kid who has had injury issues (but not arm problems, thank heavens). He was rushed up before he was 21 and has shown some high promise; of course, he’s also struggled…….but that goes with being 20/21/22. I can understand fans getting on Ian’s case because, aside from lacking Phil’s ability, he’s got a real attitude problem. However, I don’t understand why fans just can’t support Phil(I didn’t say call him an ace yet – no one said he was one now) instead of ripping him to pieces. What exactly is wrong with preaching patience?
Now it’s fairly clear that some people (like Al) just think Phil is limited, but they don’t bash him and make mean-spirited comments. I don’t agree with the “he’s a #3″ argument, nor do I agree with even labeling him as such at this point……but those are just opinions and these boards wouldn’t exist without them. What I simply don’t understand are comments like what we saw about Phil’s performance today in the AFL. In my mind, there are people out there just looking to pick Phil apart (nevermind that he’s not out there to show off with sexy #s).
“Someone earlier said that Joba was untouchable. I’m just curious but would anybody trade Joba and Austin Jackson for Jay Bruce and Joey Votto?
Would Cincinatti do it? Would the Yankees do it?”
Joba and Ajax for 2 bats? No not a good idea I would ask for Cueto/Volquez and Votto if I was sending them Joba. However I love Joba and would never do this so this trade is strictly hypothetical.
cali ?
no thanks. NY is nicer.
What exactly is wrong with preaching patience?
We can preach and preach but some fans just don’t have the patience and are quick to throw down their final judgments. Sad but true.
They want immediate success and if they don’t see it-next!
They don’t wanna hear any reasons for the struggles because if you give any, you are then just supposedly making pitiful excuses.
Derek Lowe on short rest? Scary! Torre must have forgot what year it is again.
I still want the Dodgers to win for Mattingly’s sake.
Red Sox out and Manny in also will feel good in the sore loser sense.
Torre in the fall classic is not so high on my list although if it causes anxiety to Hank, I’m all for it.
Phillies are much better so it’s doubtful anyway still if Torre pulls this off, all the Torre haters better run for cover beacuase it will give him exalted status a la Parcells and Jackson. Well sort of.
“Now it’s fairly clear that some people (like Al) just think Phil is limited, but they don’t bash him and make mean-spirited comments.”
I know what you mean Betsy and believe me you are entitled to your opinion. My problem isn’t with Hughes personally, I like the guy he is mature and just seems like a great kid. However I think he will take a long time to develop and for a team like the Yankees that isn’t a great recipe for success. Its just my opinion but I think if the Yanks could get back a great SP and in turn Phil could learn to pitch and develop(in a less stressful atmosphere) it would be a win-win situation. Also Phil is a California guy I’m sure he wouldn’t mind going home and pitching in a beautiful town like San Diego.
“Oh and I love how people say he gives you innings. So does Livan Hernandez. What good is that?”
don’t get me going jennifer.lol.
until pitchers can throw 150 pitches a game, starters like hernandez have value. they protect bullpens. when pitchers like hughes and kennedy went out early for so many games in a row, the bullpen era was also elevated because it was overused. so not just kennedy and hughes had high eras. they caused some yankee relief pitchers to pitch too much and have their eras elevated as well.
livan keeps his high era to himself. he doesn’t take a bullpen down with him. even this year when he seemed terrible his teams, i think, were +7 in the games he started.
torre talks about controlling a game. when livan pitches his average game, his manager has some control over the game. he knows he’ll go 6 innings and can plan how he’ll his bullpen in the 7th -9th.
good managers can win games with pitchers like livan. it’s how a pitcher like him fits into a team. it was a good fit in minnesota this past summer. he helped them get a game from making the playoffs when they had a fifty million dollar payroll( and no advantage of a lot of #1 picks)
Question were the fans booing Lowe when he was talking to his catcher?
Pat Burrell looks like a cross between one of the husbands on Desperate Housewives and Mike Mussina.
“good managers can win games with pitchers like livan. it’s how a pitcher like him fits into a team. it was a good fit in minnesota this past summer. he helped them get a game from making the playoffs”
Didn’t Livan spend the last 2 months pitching in Colorado?
You can’t be serious?! When a pitcher gives up 5 runs in 8 innings, what good is that?
Offseason Outlook: New York Yankees
By Tim Dierkes [October 13 at 11:16am CST]
Next up in our Offseason Outlook series, the Yankees. Their likely 2009 commitments:
C – Jorge Posada – $13.1MM
C – Jose Molina – $2MM
1B –
2B – Robinson Cano – $6MM
SS – Derek Jeter – $20MM
3B – Alex Rodriguez – $32MM
IF – Wilson Betemit – $1.165MM+
IF – Cody Ransom – $400K
LF – Johnny Damon – $13MM
CF – Brett Gardner – $400K
RF – Xavier Nady – $3.35MM+
OF – Melky Cabrera – $462K
DH – Hideki Matsui – $13MM
SP – Chien-Ming Wang – $4MM+
SP – Joba Chamberlain – $400K
SP – Phil Hughes – $407K
SP – Ian Kennedy – $400K
SP – Alfredo Aceves – $400K
RP – Mariano Rivera – $15MM
RP – Damaso Marte – $6MM club option ($250K buyout)
RP – Brian Bruney – $725K+
RP – Jose Veras – $400K
RP – Edwar Ramirez – $400K
RP – Phil Coke – $400K
RP – Mark Melancon – $400K
Buyouts: Jason Giambi – $5MM, Carl Pavano – $1.95MM
Other commitments: Andrew Brackman – $1.1375MM, Juan Miranda – $400K
The Yankees are a bit over $140MM before arbitration raises to Betemit, Nady, Wang, and Bruney. Maybe after those they’re near $150MM for current players (if Marte’s option is exercised). Will the Yankees really slash payroll all the way to the $180MM range? Brian Cashman would still be able to add $30MM in ’09 salaries, but it wouldn’t surprise anyone if he has more than that.
Jon Heyman says the Yankees want to sign two free agent starters out of C.C. Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, and Derek Lowe. If they land their top target, Sabathia, then Lowe seems more likely than Burnett. It’d be an ’09 rotation with Hughes, Kennedy, and others battling for one spot. If Mike Mussina or Andy Pettitte can be re-signed, Joba can slot in fifth and get extra days off. Depth would be excellent, but signing three starters, each for $12MM or more, could eat up most of the spending money.
The two other much-discussed holes are first base and center field. Cashman has spoken about wanting a regular first baseman as opposed to shuttling in Posada, Damon, and Matsui. Possibly available regulars at first base: Mark Teixeira, Prince Fielder, Adam LaRoche, Mike Jacobs, and Hank Blalock. The list could expand in coming months. I do not see the Yanks trading Hughes for Fielder, if some permutation of that deal is available.
If the Yankees somehow sign Sabathia, Teixeira, and another starter, they’ll be looking fantastic for 2009. It could be done if payroll is in the $200-210MM range again. Sure, Cano should be better, Matsui and Posada hopefully healthy. But Abreu could be replaced with Nady and Giambi seems gone. Tex would add stability, though he has to be seen as a luxury.
The market for center fielders, whether via free agency or trade, is poor. It makes sense to see if one of the internal options emerges as a tolerable regular (Gardner, Cabrera, Austin Jackson). As alluded to earlier, Abreu will probably be offered arbitration, decline, and sign elsewhere (leaving Nady as the right fielder).
The pen doesn’t seem like a major need; Marte on the equivalent of a one-year, $5.75MM deal is reasonable. Joe at River Ave. Blues tells me Melancon is likely to snag a spot.
Bottom line: it looks like most of the money will be spent on starting pitching, but Teixeira would sure look nice in pinstripes.
If the Yankees could sign Sabathia and Teixeira, don’t pick up Marte’s option, and resign one of Mussina/Pettitte to one year contracts, they might be able to stay around 195 million. Maybe due to the market downturn, and inability to insure these contracts, that free agent spending will be limited and trades more likely of players with manageable contracts.
I often wonder had Phil Hughes not been mentioned as part of the Santana deal, would people here still be down on him…..However it’ll take about two / three years to truly evaluate the non-trade….By then, they’ll be two ships going in different directions….One thing will remain, the 24 mil a season for Santana…
That whole “sinkerball pitchers are better on three days rest than other pitchers” isn’t working out so well. Remember Wang’s horrid start in the playoffs last year? Ugh.
I just don’t like putting any pitcher out there on that short of rest, I don’t care how durable they are.
Yankee Trader- Great off-season outlook. I think Coke can be a dominant pen lefty thus making Marte expendable.
“You can’t be serious?! When a pitcher gives up 5 runs in 8 innings, what good is that?”
you do realize livan was 13-11 this year,and his teams won 18 games with him starting.
this really is a zen of baseball kind of thing. i realize it doesn’t make rational sense, but if baseball were totally rational would livan be 13-11 and his teams 18-13 in his 31 starts. 31 starts is not a small sample.
it happened. i didn’t make it up.
“Possibly available regulars at first base: Mark Teixeira, Prince Fielder, Adam LaRoche, Mike Jacobs, and Hank Blalock.”
Teix is the best player of th bunch, but, he would cost a ton.
Fielder would cost Hughes (most Likley)
LaRoche is a good player, but, what would it take to get him?
Jacobs is very one dimensional. He hits homeruns, but, his BA and OBP are putrid. No Thanks.
Blaylock, if his option is declined, would be a nice fit. He hits for power. However, does he hit outside of Texas?
Yeah I realize what his record is. But what good is he if you have to rely on your offense to score runs?
Red Sox sure could use a player like Many on their team right about now.
““Possibly available regulars at first base: Mark Teixeira, Prince Fielder, Adam LaRoche, Mike Jacobs, and Hank Blalock.â€
Teix is the best player of th bunch, but, he would cost a ton.
Fielder would cost Hughes (most Likley)
LaRoche is a good player, but, what would it take to get him?
Jacobs is very one dimensional. He hits homeruns, but, his BA and OBP are putrid. No Thanks.
Blaylock, if his option is declined, would be a nice fit. He hits for power. However, does he hit outside of Texas?”
I agree. We should just get Adam Dunn to play 1st it can be Giambi part 2 and he’ll hit 50 HR’s in YS.
Livan eats innings (and everthing else), thus, saving your bullpen from being burnt out. Other 5th starters last 5 innings and give up 4 runs. Livan and his flubber arm has value in this league. He’s not a #1-#4 but he’d make a good #5 guy
Trying to make sense of the Twins record this year with him pitching is like trying to make sense of this sentence:
“Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.”
manny is just rocking la.
amazing .
jennifer-
what is the sound of one hand clapping?
(i’m just messing with you. i have no idea what that means)
but i know wins matter and livan got more of them than losses.
New Stadium, count on two of those three starters, with CC a lock. Tex as well, he’ll tickets are like $600 a pop in the first few rows, let’s spend spend spend! We need Cokes to hit $20 a bottle!
Oh that Wild Pitch
Hey Pete—-
I don’t know if anyone answered your trivia question, but–
Davey Lopes
Paul Konerko
Gabby Hartnett
–I have to be honest, I looked up the list of players from RI. Lopes & Konerko jumped right out at me. Hartnett was a guess.
Is this really a Rays-Sox chain on a Yanks board? Cool. I’m in. Sox suck, Rays suck, let’s talk hot stove……. I want Ethier for Cano and two junk relievers. We can get it believe it.
the problem with tampa is that when the time comes for the players to get paid they won’t be able to keep them.
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